Fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. C.S. Lewis
Initially I was sucked in by Tullian Tchividjian’s view of grace. However, as time went on, I realized that he was fixated on cheap grace. A grace that costs a person nothing. A grace that does not involve taking up the Cross and following Jesus. A grace that promotes the saint and overlooks the sinner. A grace that endangers the objects of abuse.
Tullian Tchividjian is the poster boy for clergy abuse. He had multiple affairs. He then tried to blame it on his now former wife. His current wife, one of his many affairs, is on her third marriage.
TT used his position as a pastor in order to attract women and engage in affairs. He is the poster boy for clergy abuse.
Although we wrote about this, our good friend, Julie Anne Smith posted An Infographic on Tullian Tchividjian’s Pursuit of Women and a Public/Publication Platform if you are not up to date on TT’s downfall.
Now onto my little dustup with KCBI.
What is KCBI 90.9 FM?
KCBI Is a radio station, specializing in Christian programming in the Dallas Fort Worth area. Their motto is “Encouraging Music Word of Hope.#
Here is what they say about themselves.
WHAT WE BELIEVE
KCBI is operated by First Dallas Media, Inc. As a Christian ministry, FDMI proclaims biblical truth found in the Word of God. We seek to be Christ-like in all our views and actions. As a 501(c)3 non-profit, we’re allowed to offer supporters the benefits of tax-deductible giving. As listener-supported Christian radio station, we’re able to offer music and teaching that encourages listeners and impact more lives for Christ.Why KCBI?
We believe KCBI is a movement of God to communicate the Good News of Jesus’ love & transforming power.Our Mission
KCBI exists to be a discipleship force for Jesus Christ in North Texas:
To be a Great Commission mission, we are called to grow our impact in Dallas-Fort Worth making disciples as called by Christ. Therefore, we seek to offer encouraging music and words of hope from the Bible.Core Values
Bible-Minded (what we care most about)
God’s Word is our guide as we communicate its truth in everything we do and say.
KCBI promoted Tullian Tchividjian’s comeback tour.
KCBI says that they communicate the truth of the Bible in everything they do and say. A few people on Twitter drew my attention to this KCBI tweet It appears that TT is using his massive screwup and the pain he caused his former wife, children and church to launch his comeback tour. Only in the messed up world of post evangelicalism could such abuse of the office of the clergy be considered an asset on the speaking circuit.
We believe that Tullian Tchividjian is guilty of clergy abuse and should not be allowed near a pulpit or be promoted by Christian organizations.
Deb wrote a post about both TT and Perry Noble: Perry Noble and Tullian Tchividjian – Disgraced Pastors Who Still Want to Lead. Both TT and Perry Noble seem to have no other way to support themselves except by making bank through the Christian speaking circuit.
Sadly, both he, along with KCBI, trade on the good name of Billy Graham who never misused his position to have multiple affairs. Frankly, when I saw that tweet, I shook my head and suggested that KCBI not promote Tullian’s quick comeback.
I had to smile at this naive response and wondered if it was some kid answering for KCBI. God’s grace somehow brings only beauty for the offender? There appears to be no need for extended repentance. No need to give up on preaching. No need to hang one’s head in shame. Now, this man who abused his position can get on with business and tell others how to cope with pain and sorrow caused by men like himself.
And that is the problem. This man abused the office of the pastor and he should not be promoted and I said as much to KCBI. 1 Timothy 3:1-7 NIV Bible Gateway:
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate,self-controlled,respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness ,not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
KCBI said there is nothing that disqualifies anyone from ministry and this borders on dangerous.
Look at the Scriptural justification they gave. The dramatic change from Saul to Paul is from a non-Christian to a Christian and is not applicable. That is not what happened with Tullian and that is not what happens with those who abuse people in their position as pastors. These are Christians abusing their positions.
It is time for evangelicals to wake up and understand abuse in all of its ugly forms. KCBI also needs a better spokesperson.
Oh, guess what KCBI did to Julie Anne Smith and me for bringing up our concerns?
Left Coast bias.
First again!
Maybe a year or more ago on this blog (and maybe ones at Spiritual Sounding Board blog), at least a couple of times, and I don’t remember if it was Tullian or another one of these oily, smarmy preachers, but, I mentioned this is how they operate.
You guys published a post about some preacher caught doing something wrong again – adultery or whatever it was – and way back then, I said something like,
“Just wait. This preacher guy is going to lay low for several months, then come back and go on his Apology Tour.
“He’s going to say how he’s a big sinner, that when he fell, he got mean tweets from Christians, so he was persecuted. He’ll make himself out to look like the victim.
“Then he’s going to go on this tour, where he’s setting himself up to take the stage again.
“He might even have a book to promote, a book where he talks about how much he learned from his sins and mistakes, and how God loved him through it, and he’s going to teach you and tell you how God got him through.
“He’s also going to say he’s going to teach you too, so long as you buy his book about it for $25.00.”
These smarmy preachers always follow this playback, always. It’s like death and taxes.
They try to use their mistakes, crimes, and sins as a further marketing ploy to get you to buy more of their books and stuff.
I meant PlayBOOK.
If churches, and the Christian community, are always supposed to over-look a person’s past sins, doesn’t that negate passages such as 1 Timothy 3:1-7?
Are these churches and Christian radio stations arguing that Paul’s conversion experience cancels out the other New Testament passages that talk about what qualifications one can and should expect from a pastor, elder, etc?
Why would the New Testament contain elder, teacher, pastor, etc, qualifications and standards, if what a person does, or did, is irrelevant, all because Paul was converted on the Road to Damascus?
Do these guys think that the biblical list of qualifications and rules for whom to allow to be church leadership roles, and when to kick church leaders out, is in the Bible just to fill up space and use more ink? It’s just there for the fun of it?
IM not first neener neener I did not want to be first I meant to do that. 🙂 Thanks for all you do Dee and Deb I love to watch you folks on twitter its a kick, but it is also really serious and helpful.
As long as the church continues to place men back in positions of ministry and authority when their action clearly disqualify them from such positions just because they say “sorry” we will continue to to see pastoral abuse. Anyone believe Tchividjian has truly changed? I’m not.
KCBI = K-Criswell-Bible-Institute (former owner)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCBI
“KCBI is an FM contemporary Christian music radio station in the Dallas/Fort Worth area…owned by First Dallas Media Inc. (FDMI)…On September 5, 2017, the First Baptist Church in Dallas, operator of FDMI, ended a 41-year joint management of KCBI with Criswell College, and became the sole member of FDMI.”
https://publicfiles.fcc.gov/fm-profile/kcbi/ownership-reports/
“As a Christian ministry, FDMI proclaims biblical truth found in the Word of God.”
And then they call this guy a pastor despite what is said regarding what the Bible says about pastors/overseers (see 1 Timothy 2, being above reproach, etc.)
“Just think of the dramatic change from Saul to Paul.”
I don’t recall a name change given in the manner that Simon received the name Peter/Cephas. In Act 13:9, it is noted, “Saul, who is also called Paul”, and that’s about it for any specification or distinction.
wonder how long he had to hold that far away look as he posed for that picture.
What is happening? At one time in many churches, divorce was disqualifying from the pastorate, deacon body? Are so many from broken marriages this no longer applies?
And what about Paul ‘s teaching about those who walked away from the faith? Such selective reading and misapplication of the Bible with that radio station!
And who’s the pastor of FBC Dallas? None other than the infamous Robert Jeffres (of Duggar defender fame, not to mention his current gig as the Grand High Priest of the Cult of the Orange One).
The Christian community should be about redemption. When people stumble in their faith walk, we should help guide them toward repentance and restoration. That said, there are standards for those in ministry as discussed above. In our quest for celebrity, however, those standards get ignored. While our current church culture has embraced active “church discipline” as a way of leaders keeping the sheep in line what is really needed is clear concept of disqualification: hurt the sheep then, as a leader, you are out.
The primary question is not whether Tullian should be or can be restored to ministry. The issue is one of repentance. Has his repentance been one of world sorrow or a godly sorrow? Brokeness is not repentance. Brokeness may manifest itself as an outward sign only; and should not be the evidence for an inward change (the real reality of repentance). Repentance must reach the heart, and that is where Tullian must ask himself before his Savior if there has been a true heart change. As his brothers and sisters we can only observe whether his life is bearing fruit in keeping with repentance. As someone once said, “We don’t fall out of love; we fall out of repentance.” If we weren’t sinners; Jesus would not have commanded us to repent and believe. And since we’re still yet at the same time saint and sinner after we have believed we must continue to repent. My fear and prayer for him is that he actually keeps himself accountable to people who will protect him from himself. May he not dismiss his men and be alone like David. Santification has always been a community effort. He left the community (his church) that was meant to help him grow and watch his life; so it is in accord to godliness. I really think he needs to reconcile with them first (if he has not already done so) before he does anymore public appearances.
Totally agree with you Dee and Deb. Tullian is a con artist and his false doctrine of “grace” is part of the con.
I have a question for you. Does restoration being restored to preaching or being restored to the church? I do not believe abusers should ever be allowed in the pulpit again. But, I do believe they can be restored to the church,
Evidence.
As Watchman Nee used to say, “Spiritual reality or obsession?”
Our faith walk is neither myth nor celebrity.
Tullian is not only the poster boy for clergy abuse, but a poster boy for the grace-grace-grace message which has gone amiss in the American church. Tullian had multiple affairs as a pastor! In case you didn’t catch that: Tullian had multiple affairs as a pastor! Paul speaks about such folks in Romans 6: “Shall we sin to our heart’s content and see how far we can exploit the grace of God? What a ghastly thought!”
Well, it should be a ghastly thought that some Christians so easily support a comeback by pastors who have failed morally time and time again. Forgive them if they repent? Certainly. Restore them to ministry? NO!
KCBI has misused the Saul-Paul example. Saul was not a Christian; Paul was. Saul was not a fallen pastor whose ministry was restored as Paul. There is no record of willful sinful living by Paul after his conversion, no falling from grace and being restored to the pulpit. Paul lived under costly grace, not cheap grace.
“But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.” Hebrews 5:14
Apparently the blind is leading the blind: the Con is leading the immature or not-even-yet Christians.
Is it the Billy Graham connection and US infatuation with celebrity that enables this ruse?
“ONE HAND WASHES THE OTHER…”
Don’t forget Jeffers’ Prophesying re North Korea and the Jerusalem Embassy.
Court Evangelical trying for Court Favorite.
Slightly off-topic, although kind of not off-topic insofar as it relates to the fotie of Jupiter in the post: I like the fotie of Jupiter in the post. Presumably, it was taken by the Juno spacecraft, which is (aff the top ae ma’ heid) the only spacecraft that’s ever been in a polar orbit around Jupiter.
Now more or less completely off-topic, there’s some REALLY interesting data coming from the Juno mission; the most recent I’ve heard about is that gravitational measurements suggest that Jupiter’s weather extends several thousand kilometres below the cloud tops, and that the interior rotates uniformly as though it were solid. That’s not to say that it is solid, of course – there’s still no hard evidence of a rocky core within Jupiter. Instead, it’s thought that the interior moves in step with Jupiter’s magnetic field.
IHTIH
Some bimboes really go for the Wistful Sensitive type…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ
RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
(Including sexual privileges over Inferiors.)
They can say what they like, but does God say that? Are they in agreement with God on this one?
Whose side are they on? There are only two sides. Play with fire, one gets burned. Ouch.
Sadly, examples like this don’t help the rest of us who have been abused by spouses. There is grace for TT so why can’t we show grace and forgiveness to the one who we claim abused us? They said they are sorry, they’ve remarried and moved on with their lives. You must be stuck in bitterness and anger (we are told by pastors and “friends”). They don’t have a clue.
How is TT’s entire life destroyed? What about the wife and children who’s lives will never be the same? TT’s story is not beautiful in any way. It is disgusting. In that picture where he is looking up maybe he is waiting for the thunderbolt to strike.
Without the Billy Graham connection, Tullian would have never reached celebrity status nor have followers clamoring for his comeback. Tullian has not only shamed the family name, but the Christian family which expects more of their leaders. Tullian came into the world for such a time as this … the false grace-grace-grace message was tailor-made for him. Too many 21st century “Christians” love pastors who live no differently than them; it makes them feel better about themselves.
dee,
Dee thank you for the question. My personal conviction from looking at scripture is no. And I say no; with a personal conviction and not an absolute in every single case is primarily because of John 21 and Jesus’ restoration of Peter. It was a reconiliation to Himself (through repentance) and also a restoration of Peter to ministry. I only point this out because I see this as an exception and not the norm. I think that it would serve as a better witness to the world that we truly as Christians see Christ as our Head over His Church and His desire is to present His Bride holy and without blemish. It would also serve as an example for those who do desire to do “the work of the ministry” the qualifications that the Bible sets forth is not primarily about gifting. Character always precedes gifting and competentcy. So again; from a personal conviction and as a better witness to a dying world I would hope in humility he would refrain from desiring to do “the work of the ministry,” and find areas where he could serve in a ministry in a local church. There are other ways to shepherd besides being in vocational ministry.
The Christian celebrity culture seldom considers the victims of their idols.
True. That type of grace message misses the “… sin no more” part of Jesus’ grace: “Go and sin no more.”
Au contraire, the TT broadcast (talking radio here) is simply, “Go and sin some more” and more and more and more. Live your sin life, wallow in it, promote it, enjoy, your flesh. https://spiritualsoundingboard.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/tt-timeline-5-4-books-120.jpg
Maple Lady,
“In that picture where he is looking up maybe he is waiting for the thunderbolt to strike.”
+++++++++++++++++
nah… the purpose of the pic is for everyone to see how he is so deep and so hot.
https://www.tullian.net/articles/being-kicked-into-freedom
Cough, cough,cough, gag ……….
No Tony. Where ever you got this, it’s not of the Scriptures.
I am disqualified for cause, and have been set aside. I am unfit and was subjected to discipline by God. My life was granted more time, but I didn’t even expect that.
For different cause, TT was ejected from the ministry. From memory, I believe he was pronounced “unfit” by the PCA.
At this point, I would be thinking of what’s going to happen to my unemployed ass at the judgement.
The scriptures are clear. Let him who stole, ( It can be women..money..or whatever) steal no longer: but rather let him labour…
If he has no job skills, let him clean bathrooms.
True.
There’s talent-gifting (charisma, intellect, personality, oratory, good looks/appeal).
There are the gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leadership, mercy, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, discernment, languages, interpretation, apostles, evangelists, pastors) – given while in step with God.
“Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” Gal. 5:16.
Spirit aura: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Flesh acts: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
Behavior evidences a leader and his/her team.
Mature Christians figure it out: “… the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.” Heb. 5:14.
Chicago or Texas, there seem to be immature church folk who haven’t figured it out – or maybe they’re not Christians, yet.
And to think there are preachers living that way! I actually heard a young New Calvinist “pastor” proclaim from his pulpit: “This is one prayer you should never pray: Jesus, forgive me of my sins.” There is a false idea in some corners of Christendom that grace covers everything, including on-going sinful behavior. I know we pick on New Calvinism a lot, but darn it there are young reformers out there who live under and preach cheap grace. Tullian was one of the golden boys of the reformed movement; he may have become a potato too hot for even them to handle.
Tony,
That comment I can agree with. However, he has shown behaviour consistent with a wolf. If I was a pastor, I would not allow him to minister in any way. I could never be sure if he was chatting up women, while I was busy elsewhere.
It’s a honey-trap con of the enemy: “Go and sin some more”, twisting Jesus’ “Go and sin NO more”.
Goes right back to the couple in the Garden, listening to the enemy say, “Did God REALLY say that?” and then twisting God’s Word.
Peter didn’t commit adultery with women in his church. There are no examples in the New Testament of pastors who committed sexual immorality being restored to ministry.
True. Bad characters never receive spiritual gifts. The ability to talk the chicken off a bone and charisma are sometimes mistaken as giftings from God to preach. Beware of tanned preachers in skinny jeans, unbuttoned shirts, and gold choker chains.
“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.”
What kind of “fruit” has TT produced??? Maybe ask his ex-wife, children, and the women he used.
… with hair glued straight up.
There you go again, quoting Scripture!
Multiple affairs = bad fruit. This is not your average run-of-the-mill Christian sinning for God’s sake! The man was a pastor when his fruit went from bad to rotten! Sooo, we’re supposed to hurry and put him back in the pulpit?! Good Lord, the 21st century church has become so open-minded that our spiritual brains have fallen out!
I cannot understand how anyone could think that anything this man has to say could possible be of value to anybody. Yet he gets PAID to speak? What fools the so called “Christian” community has become, believing lies and rejecting the Truth. My heart breaks for the victims.
Oh yeah, a spiky hairdo is a red flag … especially if they are toting an ESV Bible!
Justification for the sins they have committed, and/or the sins they are planning to commit.
“We don’t believe that God disqualifies anyone from ministry, especially when it comes to our past.”
Two thoughts. That is partially correct, it isn’t God who disqualifies, but the person themselves who disqualifies themselves from ministry. Second. They need to have a little chat with God about Moses. He slipped up once and God prevented him from entering the promised land.
This false grace looks like entitlement, to do everything and anything WE want and end up on top in God’s world. It’s a spiritual obsession. Self is neither denied nor sacrificed, it is worshipped and cajoled and fed 24/7.
The church went from an obsession with celebrity (our youth pastors back in the day were always “celebrated” and “hot”), to prosperity (tithe and win big), and now promiscuity (affair to affair to affair). Power, money, sex.
In reality, as we fully come to terms with our need for God’s Spirit, emptying of our selfishness, die to self, deny self, then God’s grace enables us to go on living for Him, in Him, full of His Spirit.
God’s Spirit has no presence with entitlement.
Grace embracers and refusers. Examples of Redemption, and redemption not happening:
– the disciples all denied Christ at the Cross, then came Pentecost… except for Judas.
– the Prodigal Son turned from evil/self and returned to his dad’s invite … but the Rich Man turned away from Jesus’ invite and returned to his wealth/self.
– Acts 2:37 People in evidenced repentance … but Ananias and Sapphira lied, struck dead.
“And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.” Acts 5:11.
– The disciples openly sinned and came clean but Judas lived a double life, secrets, fake.
– The Prodigal Son came back in humility, the Rich Man walked away proud of what he had.
– The Repentant were truthful about themselves but Ananias and Sapphira lied.
Since posting my blog series from Rachel and also other victims of Tullian, I have kept in contact with them. I communicated with Rachel probably a couple of weeks ago. Tullian has never fully confessed/shared his brokenness with them. Neither has he publicly apologized to Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church congregants whom he hurt. Additionally, there are many cases of spiritual abuse against staff members that he has never even acknowledged. The man has no business in any ministry at this time. He is a fraud. Oh, he has never apologized for calling me a b*tch, either.
Max I agree with your observation of there not being any example in the NT of pastors who committed sexual immorality being restored to ministry. This is also one of the reasons why I hold to the conviction of “no.” Thank you for pointing this out and this is exactly why thinking we should use the exception found in Scripture as a normative pattern for rule in life and practice is dangerous and a slippery slope. My main point in bringing up the example of Peter was to allow where Scripture does provide us an example of restoration to ministry allow it to be there and not resolve the tension of taking an absolute view in every case when it comes to disqualification of ministry and the possibility of a restoration process.
My issue was that he was disqualified from ministry due to moral failures (his character lacked blamelessness (integrity and a sincerity of faith). His pattern of speech and conduct was divided; lacking wholeness. It was on the grounds of his character. He abused his authority (position and priviledge). To serve God’s flock is a priviledge and not a right just because one feels called or has a desire. His position of power was to to bless and not harm. He was stripped of his license by his local Presby. I would seriously question any church that could call him in as their pastor in good conscience. My prayer for him is that although he may have the desire again; God would not grant it. Sometimes for the good of our souls, God will not grant some of our desires and longing. If he can’t see that his identity isn’t in being in ministry, but being a child of God; then he will not see the sufficiency of God by Him withholding his desire. Perhaps then he can truly live out in humility and meekness as a witness and testimony of what he preached: Jesus+Nothing=Everything.
KCBI: “We don’t believe that God disqualifies anyone from ministry”
Once I discovered the evidence indicates their motivation is primarily about money, such nonsense starts to make sense.
He can learn a skill, many have done this much later in life. There is a big shortage of skilled plumbers, electricians, brick layers …
For the specific reason that such blue-collar jobs are now Beneath the Dignity of white Americans. One plumber in Georgia put it this way about why so many of his company’s apprentices and journeymen are Hispanic immigrants:
“White kids want to go through college and become Managers and CEOs. Black kids want to become sports stars and rappers. Asian kids are fast-tracked into doctors and high-tech. Jewish kids aim for doctors, lawyers, and professors. Who else is left?”
Despite the fact that plumbers, electricians, and repairmen are really hard to outsource to Bangalore or Calcutta.
Soylent Green is people! ! !…
From Doctor Demento in the Eighties:
“STICK A RAZOR BLADE UP YOUR NOSE!
WHIP YOUR PARTNER WITH A RUBBER HOSE!
SPIT ON THE BAND! ‘CAUSE THAT’S THE WAY IT GOES
DOING THE PUNK POLKA!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5jK31CONVI
They’re not CELEBRITIES.
dee,
I’m sad to say that pastors won’t do the hard work. I’ve found that out now, for sure, in the church i’ve been attending and won’t be back anymore. Finally left. One of them was good, one not, and I now know the truth of it. I’m afraid it’s a possible tragedy in the making, as one of them doesn’t want to deal with his life, therefore…he’s done literally everything he can not to have to. that’s my take on it, and I can’t stay and watch anymore. Please read Donald Millers blog on how to spot a manipulative church leader. I don’t know how to provide the link. It’s brilliant. Meanwhile after the last two weeks, the memories, flashbacks and wrecking ball to everything, I’m shattered. But i just couldn’t do any of it anymore.
He’s bad bad news
The radio station Manager Matt Austin with KCBI told me that he wished that Dee or Deb would have contacted him prior to posting this blog post. I listened to this station and had an issue with the statement made by KCBI which prompted my call. I wanted to know why they would support him and make that statement?
I find it difficult to believe that Dee & Deb wouldn’t contact them prior to posting since these ladies always have their ducks in a row and in my experience are fare.
Matt also stated that the person who made that post misrepresented the radio station and that they do not support abuse or what he did. He stated that he had a conversation with Tullian where he was admitting his sin and talking about how God changed his life but that the radio station wasn’t supporting his ministry.
Matt told me that it’s been two months and he’s wondering why the post came about now? I stated that it appears that the post came about now because other readers recently brought it to Dee and Deb’s attention however he would have to ask Dee or Deb that question.
I pointed out the statements which Tullian made about Julianne in Text messages and calling on others to go after her for posting his bad behavior. It seemed that Matt couldn’t get off the phone with me quick enough as he stated he needed to catch a flight. He said he didn’t want to rehash everything and that this was the first time he was being made aware of Tullian’s statements. I also told him that Tullian has yet to reconcile and ask forgiveness from the victims he caused harm. Again he said he didn’t want to rehash it and that KCBI’s position is that they were not promoting his ministry but letting him talk about how God has changed his life.
I will no longer support KCBI by listening to them because I got blanketed responses and it didn’t seem like the station manager was really interested in hearing how Tullian has not taken full responsibility. I offered to email him where he could find the text messages sent by Tullian, the attacks on Julianne, and the story’s regarding the his victims. He dismissed it and again went back to how KCBI isn’t supporting his ministry.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The guy in Georgia has it pegged right on the money.
This is exactly what we’ve become since we sold-off-outsourced-and-offshored our manufacturing base for mess of pottage.
Thersites,
Becoming a plumber might be an option for Tullian. After all, he seemed to be really good a laying pipe…
Perhaps the answer is in the tweet above- “Tullian never justifies his sin and in fact, tells us it destroyed his entire life.” -“*HIS* entire life”- Maybe he ought to shift his attention to the other lives he’s destroyed. To him and this radio station, those lives are just props -just nobodies out there- to help him tell his ‘redemption’ story.
1. God hasn’t changed his life (evidence being, he’s still trying to do the same thing)
2. “letting him talk about how God has changed his life” on the radio IS promoting his ministry. Period.
I would think that interviewers, journalists, and reporters would do their research before even issuing an invitation, to discover any areas of contention or questionable actions that would make an invitation or interview problematic for the reporting agency.
In the case of Tullian Tchividjian, there are well-documented evidences about sinful past actions — some admitted to by him and others yet to be acknowledged, lack of repair work and reconciliation with those victimized that would be true action-indicators of repentance, and lingering questions about disqualifications from ministry for cause. They aren’t that difficult to find.
But, when there has apparently been little to no critical research to spotlight such areas and issues, then the invitation and interview IS the endorsement, the promotion of the person, isn’t it? The subject’s perspective is presented to readers-viewers-listeners as being taken at face value by the news agency. No warnings, no discernment indicators, no protection of the “flock” that has tuned in to the interview.
Max,
Max,
What TT did was worse than just having an affair. If you’ve had a chance to see the descriptions posted on Julie Anne’s blog, it appears that TT willfully pursued a married woman and mother.
Allegedly he broke apart her marriage and ripped them off for thousands of dollars. That isn’t the same thing as just having an affair. Where is the compassion for the kids now growing up in a broken home just because TT got what he wanted?
There’s a special place in hell for that kind of arrogance.
I recall from his past sermons that John MacArthur believes that sexual sin disqualifies a man from returning to the pulpit. That includes adultery and obviously sexual abuse.
What “other lives”?
Technically, Peter was not in the ministry when he denied Christ. There was no Gospel ministry until after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. When the Holy Spirit fell on the gathering of believers at Pentecost, the Church was born and Gospel preachers released into the world. Again, there are no NT examples of pastors who failed morally being restored to the ministry. They had more important things to do, like reaching a lost world with the precious message of Christ rather than using the church as a hunting ground for women. We should expect no less from pastors today; when they are licensed and ordained into the ministry, they need to keep their pants on. Tullian had multiple affairs while he was carrying the title of pastor; he was disobedient to his marriage vows and betrayed the trust of church members. He does not need to be restored to ministry – there are other places to be of service to God in church, rather than the pulpit he disqualified himself from.
Siteseer,
“Destroyed life” means not having a platform to continue making money and influencing the gullible. Love how they can act repentant to get the next gig but never actually make things right with the victims. Yep, know all about that! Smarmy as the day is long. My ex could talk about “brokenness” with faux humility but that is completely different than confession and fruit bearing repentance. It is the new buzz word that travels around with hyper-grace. Meaningless drivel
Just look for the angle they are working: money, power, sex or image repair.
brad/futuristguy,
The weasel words are alive and well with Mr. Matt and so many others.
brad/futuristguy,
New personal goal. Life life in such a way that Brad is never tempted to make a field guide from my lousy behavior. You are not good at weasel words, Brad, thankfully!
I wonder if his ex-wife thinks Tullian should be restored to ministry? After dragging his children through Hell, do you think they want to hear Daddy preaching again? Would the church women he used and abused be thrilled to hear him expounding on living the victorious life in Christ while they deal with the misery he left them to pack? No, Tullian does not need to be restored to ministry.
Giving airtime to Tullian for whatever the reason and letting Tullian get his name on the air is supporting Tullian’s ministry in a round about way.
I’m convinced that many men “go into the ministry” because they can’t do anything else. They have no mechanical skills and don’t really want to learn them. They just don’t want to work for a living; preaching is so easy if you can pull it off. Thankfully, these are the minority of pulpiteers (I think). I’ve learned enough in the blogosphere about method, message and gimmick that I believe I could pastor a mega-church at this point … except, I refuse to do the skinny pants and spiky hairdo thing.
In other news, and it’s hidden behind a paywall for me, but a woman has come forward to say that she reported being raped to Paige Patterson and he told her to keep quiet about it, then the school put her on probation for her “moral lapse”.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/05/22/southern-baptist-leader-encouraged-a-woman-not-to-report-alleged-rape-to-police-and-told-her-to-forgive-assailant-she-says/?utm_term=.009a404a2644
Side note… Warren Thockmorton was canned by Patheos.
His blog continues here. http://www.wthrockmorton.com/
https://www.dallasnews.com/life/faith/2018/05/22/trustees-meet-fort-worth-seminary-new-accusations-southern-baptist-leader-surface
Hey….folks…I think the reason that TT is back in the saddle NOW is that grandpa is dead…did he wait till now so that grandpa couldn’t say anything????
ishy,
My!
Bridget,
I guess a tiny comment gets a tiny font . . .
I am sad to say this happened while I was a student there and there were very few other female students, so this probably happened to someone I know. I wish I could say I had a good idea of which guy did it, but I knew a number of creepy guys there and I know men who seem charismatic and non-creepy still rape. But I am livid right now!
(Font looks fine to me, did you zoom it out, by chance?)
So, she gets probation for being raped and the man gets nothing?!?!?
Hey there, I represent that! I’m invested in various pricey water-soluble potions designed to lift the hair on the top of my head straight up and hold it there. It’s much better than the Elmer’s Glue punks used back in the early 1980s, that’s for sure.
After all, doesn’t the saying go, “the higher the hair, the closer to God”? *giggle*
On a more serious note, you can tell the regular Southern Baptist preachers from the Independent Fundamental Baptist preachers. The former wear Hawaiian/polo/Mexican shirts and jeans, the latter suits, white shirts and ties. It’s like the beard and plaid shirt uniform I saw at “Together for the Gospel” in Louisville last month.
That appears to be the case.
While I was there, I know several women who reported a guy who stalked one of them, and said horrible things to most of the women there, including me. He used to walk up to women and tell them how they “rated” physically. I heard him say some other horrible things about women. The school did nothing.
I was going to report him until my friends said they did. We all hoped something would happen, but he went on and never changed his behavior one bit.
And three of my male classmates have since been arrested for child molestation, one of which inspired dee to write this blog.
There was and is something seriously wrong with the system for a very small school to turn out so many sex offenders.
Max,
Why? I was given an ESV Bible by a relative. Is there something I don’t know. Honest question.
I had a degree in Engineering from Ga Tech and had been accepted to grad school at Tech. My fraternity brother with the same degree later was CEO of Walmart. One church staff I was on had three pastors who were also Ga Tech grads prior to seminary.
It depends on which edition it is, but here’s info on the changes in the ESV 2016:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/09/12/the-new-stealth-translation-esv/
The ESV, in itself, is an OK Bible … comparable to the NIV. It is published by Crossway Publishing, a leading publisher of primarily Calvinist literature. The ESV Study Bible is loaded with Calvinist commentary. The ESV is the “sword” of choice by New Calvinists. You would be hard pressed to find a New Calvinist preacher who uses any other translation. If you have an ESV, and don’t adhere to reformed belief and practice, it’s not going to taint your Scripture reading much. But if you have an ESV Study Bible, the commentary leads you down a road of aberrant interpretation of certain passages to support the tenets of reformed theology, which are not accepted by most of Christendom. (Ishy has linked you to some concerns with the 2016 edition of the ESV).
drstevej,
Dr. Steve, I didn’t say “most”, I said “many”. God calls folks into the ministry from various careers, but there are those who call themselves into the ministry for various reasons, usually not good.
I think there is also being at the top of a dominance hierarchy and the lure of an adoring crowd. You can gain some of both from working in the trades but you actually have to show real quality and integrity in your work.
My two cents; it’s not whether or not Tullian can be restored to ministry, but can he be restored to pastoral ministry?
I don’t think KCBI set any precedent. Lots of these clowns get back on the air no matter what they do. Peter Popoff was shamed on the Late Show with Carson by James Randi. He still got back on the air!
Bakker, Swaggart and on and on.
How they get followers is beyond me. The best you can do is try to contain them
But Mark Driscol “It’s all about Jesus” remains on Patheos. In the similar vein to Tullian on KCBI it is likely about money, it sure isn’t about integrity.
And that is the really scary part about what’s going on in the American church!
ishy,
In that article there is a list of which groups tend to use which translations. I have no idea how accurate that is, but the LCMS school where some of my g’kids went required the ESV for religion class. I bought one for each child, therefore. No problem arose because of it that we had to deal with.
Down the line of the list of translations the article say “The KJV–fill in the blank yourself.” I gather they were meaning fundamentalists or KJV only groups. Whatever. The KJV is the official translation of The Episcopal Church, though there are a total of 14 approved translations last time I checked. ESV is not one of them. Strange combination is it not, official KJV and some official liberal social stances.
Perhaps one cannot always know all there is to know about a person/group based on bible translation preferences.
in case it hasn’t already come up here in comments, Warren’s blog has been 410’d out of existence by Patheos
So why did Throckmorton get jettisoned?
They don’t call it ‘chrislam’ for nothin’.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
ROTFL!
Sounds like Pakistan and India doesn’t it?
I pray God that these women will find a well spring of wherewithal within themselves and leave these sick and twisted religions.
Muff Potter,
She was the temptress. She led him down an evil path. Her fault, in their way of twisted thinking.
There is a lot of this type of censorship on platforms whether it be de-monitizing at youtube, getting removed from patreon or shadow-banned by twitter it may be that if your content generates any controversy, then short of your own website you may need to be hosted by pornhub if you don’t want censorship. (/end sarcasm font)
Muff Potter,
There’s not exactly a clear explanation beyond a generic notice that WT’s blog no longer fit the strategic goals of Patheos.
http://www.wthrockmorton.com/2018/05/22/the-blog-at-patheos-is-410-gone/
Of two minds about the news. On the one hand it seems dubious to drop WT’s blog at this point but advertisers and platform owners may just want his blog gone. On the other hand, since I’ve hated Patheos as a platform because it seems dedicated to intra-group inspirational cllckbait to drive ad revenue more than actual content … Warren’s blogging may be better off not being dependent on Patheos in the long run.
WenatcheeTheHatchet,
I agree. Patheos is about as Zuckerbergian as you can get. It’s all about the Ad revenue.
I’ve heard that hairdo called a faux-hawk. Rhymes with Mohawk. And it seems to be going out of style with the preacher-types. Everyone else dropped it months or years ago.
For what it’s worth, I’ve heard the idea that it would have been very unusual for a Pharisee like Saul to have been single. He was almost certainly married to a nice Jewish girl, and if it was at all possible for them to have children, they would have.
We really aren’t told anything about how Saul’s conversion affected his marriage, or when it ended. It’s all conjecture, but it’s possible that at some point, Paul was divorced. Could some of Paul’s powerful Pharisee ex-friends, like Gamaliel himself, have arranged the divorce and taken Paul’s family in, as a way to punish him? Hard to know. But it’s hard to imagine Paul as the instigator of the divorce. It’s easier to think he was the victim.
I find it really hard to make rules, like saying that any sort of divorce disqualifies a person from leadership. Every case is different. In Tullian’s case, I’m far more concerned about what appeared to be serial womanizing, especially while married, and his actions after the divorce, than in the divorce itself. It’s all about character.
Some of you are far more educated than I am. Feel free to correct me.
Certainly odd especially since he was also a Roman citizen (there were a variety of laws encouraging Roman citizens to marry and have children and punishing those that did not [e.g., by restricting what they could inherit] and rewarding those who had lots of children).
Note he could be a widower.
Nothing new here. That’s why there’s no precedent being set by KCBI.
As the Barenaked Ladies sang “It’s all been done…”
Trust me, the American Church (whichever Christianity you follow) doesn’t have a lock on bad religion. There’s churches in Canada just as bad.
We don’t know anything about most characters in the bible.
Did Jesus really look like Barry Gibb?
Jack,
Admittedly … Todd Bentley sprang to mind.
in other news, Jessica Johnson’s monograph Biblical Porn has been published by Duke University Press. Plan to review it once I’ve read through the book and had some time to think about it. The book was released just this last week, if memory serves.
The Blog at Patheos is “410 Gone”
http://www.wthrockmorton.com/2018/05/22/the-blog-at-patheos-is-410-gone/
This was my part of the above comment.
ishy,
It’s been all over social media.
Southern Baptist leader Paige Patterson encouraged a woman not to report alleged rape to police and told her to forgive assailant, she says
http://www.enidnews.com/news/new-allegations-reported-surrounding-controversial-baptist-seminary-head/article_53d4d008-5e11-11e8-8c39-bfc8e9863bcb.html
Based on the on-going examples such as that one…
Women are ‘equal in worth, just not in role’ my behind. Complementarians clearly do not consider women to be equal in worth.
Max, Ishy, Okrapod,
Thanks for the information. I use the ESV because it was given to me by a loved family member. My pastor preaches from the NKJV. I have noticed word changes and have written notes about it on occasion to myself in the margins. The word changes aren’t truly synonyms and actually change the meaning, in my opinion. I have often wondered which is correct.
Julie Anne,
Considering source, if I were you, I would put that on my resume.
For those wanting research/resource materials or source for quick links … Spiritual Sounding Board has an updated bibliography of news reports, blog articles, and Twitter posts/threads related to Paige Patterson and current crisis in Southern Baptist Convention.
It starts with materials from April 28, and current as of 11:30 PM Pacific Time on May 22.
It also includes links to select historical/theological materials and primary documents.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2018/04/30/paige-patterson-on-domestic-violence-audiofile-transcript-and-resource-links/
Yes!
Paige Patterson has been fired from SWBTS. Dean of Theology Dr. Jeffrey Bingham will act as interim president. No news yet on whether he’s going to keep his mansion on campus.
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article211724434.html
I do think the changes between the older ESV and the 2016 version are significant.
However, it was in studying Greek for six years that I realized that most translations have some major translation dilemmas, and those dilemmas tend to be the most proof-texted verses with a lot of Christians. And those proof-texts often depend on something in the English translations that is there or not there in the Greek, or where scholars aren’t totally sure what connotation the original Greek word implied.
If you want a glaring example, try Ephesians 5:22 in the NIV “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.” Pretty familiar verse to most evangelicals, right? Now look at the Greek: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/5-22.htm\
All translations have biases. As my (complementarian) Greek professor said when I confronted him with the problems in the translations of the Greek verses on women: “There’s a lot of politics in Bible translation.”
Well, sort of. He is now “President Emeritus”, like John Piper is “Pastor Emeritus” at his church. Sounds strange to me.
I’m feel sure that Patterson got a better deal than a normal firing.
President Nefarious ???
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/may/paige-patterson-southwestern-seminary-trustees-swbts.html
He keeps his retirement home.
ishy,
It’s predicated on what goes before in 5:21.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/paige-patterson-southern-baptist-rape/
And , Rick Patrick (SBCToday) ridicules the lady who was raped at SEBTS. Lovely to see how low they will stoop.
Does it come with an ankle bracelet?
Actually, I was wondering if it came with housekeepers and chefs. After all these years, do you think Miss Dottie remembers how to make beds, cook, do laundry, and load a dishwasher?
That is a valid translation. But omitting it and using the motion of “to” is valid as well. We use that exact same thing in English.
However, much less valid is the common evangelical interpretation that women submit and men do not. If you are going to take “submit” from verse 21, that means the key verse is “Submit to one another”. The following verses are dependent on that. However, most English translations insert a editorial split via a section title between those to verse to make it seem like they are not related to one another. That is bias.
Bleh.
OK. One more time.
Do NOT talk about moderation in comments.
Thank You
GBTC
https://swbts.edu/news/releases/statement-regarding-dr-paige-patterson/
“President Emeritus with compensation”
I see your “Bleh” and raise you an “Ikes”.
Re: WenatcheeTheHatchet
Put your last comment up again without breaking the rules.
“Additionally, the board affirmed a motion stating 1) evidence exists that Dr. Patterson has complied with reporting laws regarding assault and abuse,”
“As we begin the process of ushering in a new season of leadership”
NEW SEASON… party on, Garth.
https://swbts.edu/news/releases/statement-regarding-dr-paige-patterson/
Um, I thought men were cabable of these activities, too??
GuyBehindtheCurtain,
not necessary, since the one about the Johnson book got published but thanks for the heads up about the rules. Forgot about that.
drstevej,
“the board has not found evidence of misconduct in Nathan Montgomery’s employment file.”
And they’re going to give him his job back?
Russell Dilday didn’t get a house.
That was not part of his request to the board.
ishy,
“13-hour discussion regarding challenges facing the Institution, including those of enrollment, financial, leadership and institutional identity”
The order they put things is important. The number one reason they’re putting PP out to Pasture in his new mansion is — declining enrollment. This is, I suspect, the same reason Mac Brunson suddenly resigned from his former mega church to wait on the Lord– er — accept the call at a much smaller church. Of course, behind both of these there’s the Calvinista takeover. Captain Queeg really was certifiable, but The Caine Mutiny was orchestrated by the Fred MacMurray character.
ishy, I just read the story in the post about Patterson counseling the classmate of yours not to report the rape and your twitter post. I too am livid.
This gentle send off, complete with cash and housing, is not enough.
Sorry, I apparently misquoted earlier something to ishy, so it’s not showing.
ishy, I just read the story in the post about Patterson counseling the classmate of yours not to report the rape and your twitter post. I too am livid.
This gentle send off, complete with cash and housing, is not enough. Not by a long shot. The whole place and attitude and everything needs to change. Now.
ishy,
This part of the article is so gross. Why? Can you imagine such a thing? Where is the sensitivity in any of these men?
“That administrator then reported the incident to Patterson, she said, and she was required to meet with Patterson and three or four male seminarians she said were proteges of Patterson’s. She said she doesn’t remember the specific words Patterson used but that he wanted to know every detail of the rape. “
I don’t think Dr. Bingham is one of the Calvinista from what I can tell. He finished DTS after me so I do not know him personally.
That’s why the New Calvinist leaders push the ESV. Subtle changes in text lend more easily to altering the context of a passage to support the tenets of reformed theology. Indoctrination is the goal of this translation, particularly the ESV Study Bible. If you pray for the Holy Spirit to teach you as you read any version of the Bible, flags will go up when there is a deviation from Truth. When you (generic you) run across such passages, it’s very important that you consider a certain passage in view of the whole of Scripture.
Jollies. Schadenfreude.
Max,
NASB?
I have actually seen a couple people I respect say good things about him. However, he’s just interim president. I have a suspicion he will not be permanent.
Or perhaps paraphilia; how many men with those issues also have misogyny intertwined in them?
Don’t miss the part where he had 4 male flunkies there too! Because that’s also not ok.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Ah I missed the interim part.
While I have the NASB (and most every other version) in my library, I do most of my Bible reading in the KJV (but I am not a KJV-only guy). The NASB has a reputation for being the most accurate English translation, rendering as close as possible the sense of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. But I suppose promoters of any version would say that. I also like the J.B. Phillips translation of the New Testament, as well as the Amplified translation of the whole Bible. My wife prefers NIV (1984 and older issues).
They are …… just like women are capable of teaching men!
Did anyone?
Is this separate from the male student who attempted to molest his male roommate? I am sad and sorry for the young woman.
Max,
Thanks. We use NASB Thompson Chain Reference quite often.
Lea,
Yuck. Put the woman and her trauma on display. Disgusting.
Lea,
It’s almost sadistic. Or, maybe it is sadism.
I read the article and was struck by the mentioning of George Harvey’s name; he is the current attorney for SEBTS. If memory serves me correctly, he was the school’s attorney back in 2003 as well – he, of all people, should know what happened. Yet he is quoted as conducting an internal review.
I say “Nay, nay”
The Bible I have carried for 40+ years is a KJV Thompson Chain Reference version. I have found the Thompson Chain to be a great resource for Bible study. I have so many marginal notes in that old Bible, I couldn’t swap it for another at this point. I recently had a new binding installed on it.
We don’t know, but wasn’t that one of the three that eventually were convicted for child molestation?
I am ashamed to have gone there.
The religious world now waits for Al Mohler to appoint a new President at SWBTS. Getting past the SWBTS trustees might be a more difficult task than at SEBTS and MWBTS, but he will pull it off somehow. He is the most powerful man in the SBC right now. The “reformed” SBC seminaries are growing; SWBTS is not. Perhaps Mohler’s lieutenants can convince the SWBTS trustees that appointment of a “moderate” Calvinist would be a good compromise to put the institution back on its feet.
Every JUICY Detail.
Pornography for the Pious.
How else can such RESPECTABLE Pillars of the Church get their JUICY Porn Fix and still stay RESPECTABLE?
Plus the LARP of being God Himself on the White Throne in Jack Chick’s “This Was Your Life”, extracting every JUICY morsel of SIN before passing Judgment?
“ONE HAND WASHES THE OTHER…”
Thanks, but no thanks. I’m into the Great Commission not the Great Commotion.
I don’t like the term “cheap grace” because I don’t think it describes the belief system of people like Tullian. I haven’t read his books, but I think it’s possible for someone to “talk” theology correctly but only use that theological knowledge as a platform for fame and fortune. In his case, he has the evangelical background to be able to “talk the talk” without any need for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ himself. What we are seeing here is someone who TALKS “grace” but actually LIVES as an abuser or an entitled narcissist. When we use the term “cheap grace” it seems to imply that the opposite is a “costly grace” would cost US something (works?). The “grace” described in the NT is freely given… not dependent on our works… but it places us into a love relationship with Jesus and “teaches” us to become more and more like the Savior we love. “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.” Titus 2: 11-12
And the Secular Humanist System denied them an Honor Killing to keep things hushed up.
Once the Godly Take Back America and Restore a true Christian Nation…
Don’t ask Political Questions, Comrade.
Costly grace doesn’t cost us anything – it cost Christ His life for us.
Here’s how Dietrich Bonhoeffer defined the two:
“Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares … Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.
Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.”
And it will be sometime with experience in fundraising or recruiting. Mohler does not put theologians in institutional top spots.
Agreed. Akin (SEBTS) and Allen (MWBTS) would not be considered theologians. Both have direct ties to Mohler at SBTS. Don’t you just hate theo-politics?! Such power-mongering has absolutely nothing to do with taking the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost world, no matter how you spin it. The SBC is becoming a reproach and byword in the world (not individual churches, but the denomination).
…then women magdalens might be sent to do laundry work again. That might be an historic idea we could import.
Everything is always in the past, or about to be. So if Pastor Goodguy has affairs with a half dozen parishioners, grabs a handful of bills each week out of the collection plate when no one’s looking, and murders anyone who tries to expose him in cold blood, it’s always going into the past, isn’t it? I guess so long as Goodguy says “I’m so, so sorry” regularly, he’s good to go. How could he not be? It’s in the past.
So by the definition proposed by the geniuses and paragons of goodness at this radio station, no one’s ever disqualified for ministry ever.
*unless you’re a woman, in which you’re always dq’d, forever and ever, amen.
I mean, think of all the poor men having to do their own laundry! Don’t people have any compassion?
I hate the Saul-Paul comparison, because a true comparison would be if Paul had, after being a Christian for years and starting his public ministry, began bedding various women on his missionary journeys, then married a twice-divorced woman whom he’d bedded while still married to another, then hit the ground running after the scandal was exposed by others (rather than himself bringing his sin out into public and repenting appropriate in the proverbial sackcloth and ashes) and then went back on the speaking circuit. THAT would be analogous.
And if that were part of the New Testament story, and presented as an example of God’s grace and how “beautiful” it all was, I don’t think I’d have become a follower of Jesus—I’d have looked at it and thought it was all a crock.
Daisy, I really don’t think they care one little bit about what God said, and frankly, for a whole lot of them, I don’t think this “Christian Thing” is anything more than a money-making scheme, I really don’t think they believe it. They know they can sell some ad space by getting a family member of Billy Graham on their station and that’s good for ratings, good for salaries, good for their own potential speaking circuit careers. I just do not think it’s about Jesus, think He’s largely irrelevant except as a marketing tool.
Katharine Bushnell ran up against this dilemma long ago and writes about it in her landmark work: God’s Word to Women.
BINGO
Paul was the most brilliant academic and religious court attorney of his generation (and as a prof not brilliant myself, but knowing enough to be able to detect brilliance, let me tell you, the way Paul puts together an argument is extraordinary, at the highest level of legal reasoning, as a good an example of logical and legal reasoning as any U.S. Supreme Court opinion or any brief written by a master), he had job skills writ large, and yet, he humbled himself to do blue collar labor as a tent-builder to finance his very dangerous and thankless (not lucrative) speaking tours.
After a while, Tullian will run out of credibility using the family name … too much personal baggage.
Makes one wonder what the geniuses and paragons of goodness are up to in their own lives.
RE: Paige Patterson
I know this is not a piece about Paige Patterson, but various commenters have chimed in on this threas since his “retirement” was announced.
Ed Stetzer speaks again “On the Removal of Paige Patterson and Next Steps for the SBC” … https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2018/may/my-statement-on-removal-of-paige-patterson.html
In his article, Stetzer states “It is time for all of us to step up, women and men. No individual is greater than our mission, and that mission needs some honest conversations before everyone is told to just “move on.””
I wonder if Stezer would lead an honest conversation about Al Mohler’s mission? I’m not a fan of Paige Patterson, but Stetzer and his New Calvinist buddies have taken this opportunity to pile on.
“on this thread”
I wonder whether Paul’s example might not be a better model for contemporary church ministry than the conventional pattern of “youth recruitment, intensive professional training, hiring into full-time positions of high responsibility with little prior relational context”. I don’t see how most of these ordinations are not “hasty”.
If one takes OT priesthood as a precedent for a special ministerial class (ecclesiologists want to derive their theology of church worship and polity from biblical precedents, and there are a lot more of those in the OT than in the NT), one ends up in a similar place. The priests did not serve full time (think of Luke’s account of Zechariah’s periodic Temple service) and had their own cities and farmland, which presumably occupied them when they were not on Temple duty.
It would take multiple part-time vocational ministers for a congregation that was larger than “very small”, but elder plurality is a good thing, especially if they are genuinely functioning as equals.
Max,
Russell Moore, today on Twitter, who has historically said the SBC needs to call complementarianism patriarchy and be better at patriarchy:
“There would be no Southern Baptist Convention without Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong. We desperately need a resurgence of women’s voices and women’s leadership and women’s empowerment, again. It is way past time.”
Please ask me also about my recent SEBTS and SBC experience when I tried to call out and talk about these things systemically and what happened to me personally. My experience there was a nightmare.
The same men who mistreated me and treated me like crap are on social media acting like they are advocates now.
Sad day for Erskine College and Seminary.
https://mobile.twitter.com/albertmohler/status/997968167090651136
Unfolding currently in the comment section on Wade Burleson’s blog.
Many thoughts on this for later, but here’s a thought-provoking link given all this:
http://sbcvoices.com/i-agree-with-danny-akin/
Takes longer for some of us. https://mobile.twitter.com/jacksondame/status/999087450818535424
True, the professors at the SBC seminaries today are not world class theologians….
He did. And reminded us, it is better to give then receive.
Indeed. Every sin ever is all in the past. If it ever turns out that I’m wrong, and there is actually a JudgementSeat, I’m going to use that one on God.
I hit send too soon. I had a professor in seminary who had 3 doctorates. Including Universities of Geneva, Oxford. About 3 years after I passed K saw a note about how he’d be purged in today’s SBC, too intellectual. And you know, they are correct….( He was my favorite professor in seminary)
*InsertCryingLaughingEmojiHere*
Anyway, it’s not what’s in Mr Tchividjian’s past that disqualifies him from ministry; it’s what’s in his present. I’d be a lot less bothered if it were in his past.
When you tread in doggy-doos, the “treading” may be in the past but the unpleasantness remains on your shoe until you clean it off. I await news that Mr Tchividjian has cleaned his proverbial shoes (mainly by putting things right for anyone he has wronged).
The irony is that I genuinely don’t know whom to thank for said secular humanist system.
To be fair, the same might also be said of better folk (to paraphrase Treebeard).
If ‘sin’ is defined as an event, then perhaps. But if ‘sin’ is the flaw in me that caused me to do it in the first place, then that is probably not in the past if ‘in the past’ means only in the past and not now.
__
“Subject Matter Expert?”
hmmm…
KCBI is welcome to put new wine in old win skins. Doing diligence is apparently not one their strong points.
hahahahahaha
ATB
Sòpy
—
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0E1bNmyPWww
;~)
– –
Max, the one and only thing that could ever induce me to set foot in a mega-church would be to see you preaching in skinny jeans and a spiky hairdo! 😉
That entire post bears repeating 453,789 times over.
I agree.
There is that.
Max,
Honest question– I do not use the ESV version, but my pastor (and his “high-thinking” friends) promotes it big time. What is your opinion of it?
My opinion is that any pastor who’d promote it big time is not a person with whom I’d want to be in fellowship.
Burleson’s recent blog post is stunng. A Must read.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2018/05/paige-patterson-and-rape-victim-he.html
It’s all about “our mission”. I have heard that code before. When people are not about Jesus, they speak of the mission, the gospel, their calling, their church, their leaders, their vision, their this and that and their other. But the first thing out of their mouths is seldom “Jesus”. Of course, I think Stetzer shows every sign of being an outright fraud.
Godbeforemen,
Oh, I should have kept reading. I found your explanation further down.
drstevej,
Excellent!!
Law Prof,
So many have already stepped up and spoken out over the years. When it wasn’t convenient for them to do so. And without any to little power.
I wonder if any of these *new* and suddenly so concerned advocates (who were content, silent, dismissive toward, and fine with all this stuff before) would be able to handle not being the “leaders” of these conversations and changes. At best, they have been completely oblivious to what has been going on forever in the SBC, which is a red flag in itself. At worst, they’re complicit and opportunistic. Neither of those qualify someone as a leader in these conversations.
drstevej,
https://albertmohler.com/2018/05/23/wrath-god-poured-humiliation-southern-baptist-convention/
By the way, that was just me jumping off your comment chain. Not anything you said.
Ed Stetzer is not qualified to “lead” these discussions. Most of these men are not. They should try listening and let other people speak for a change.
Cindy Meyers,
Someone needs to ask Al about CJ. Al’s an opportunist. He knows what’s coming.
yep
It’s unfortunate that Mohler doesn’t allow comments, since at least 3 of us had that same thought immediately.
If you are asking me what I think about your pastor and his “high-thinking” friends, I would say they are most likely New Calvinists. They are the only tribe I know of that “promotes it (ESV) big time.”
If you are asking my opinion of the ESV, see my upstream comments to JoJo in this regard.
I saw someone ask why women haven’t spoken up before. And I was just thinking, when I did, you rolled your eyes at me, told me I misunderstood or was overreacting or that I needed to “forgive and forget”.
People have been speaking up all along. It’s not until suddenly it’s affecting their bottom line that they are going to pretend they cared all along.
Stetzer has been elusive in his exact theological leaning, but he sure advanced the New Calvinist cause when he was employed by LifeWay.
I’ll make sure you are on the mailing list when that happens!
Caroline,
Well, he doesn’t want to hear it. He’s made that fact quite clear.
Just heard the nail struck solidly on the head. It’s ALWAYS about the money. ALWAYS.
ishy,
Yes, also true for me and so many other women (and men).
Max,
I think he leans toward the bank.
This recent tweet by Russell Moore:
https://twitter.com/drmoore/status/999265695048355840?s=04
I saw a woman on another site express annoyance with that Moore tweet.
It is pretty rich of him, since Southern Baptists for years have told women members to sit down,shut up, and let the men lead, because The Bible supposedly says God only wants men to lead, and this comes in the midst of all the Paige Patterson uproar, too.
Steve,
My thought exactly! It’s about time and I think this whole thing has opened that door!
Daisy,
Moore, Mohler, and more to come. Opportunists. There will be books, conferences, etc. Monetization. They’re specialists.
While I sometimes enjoy Janet Mefferd‘s work, I find her to be extremely tone deaf at times, such as in this recent tweet (which comes during the Paige Patterson drama):
https://twitter.com/JanetMefferd/status/999285639576244224
By the way, I just visited Mefferd’s Twitter account, and she’s been on a tare (tear?) about this. That Tweet I cite above is just one tweet of a few she’s been doing lately in that manner.
Ms. Mefferd is really conflating women asking for change in Baptist churches, which is perfectly legitimate and not even liberal or feminist – with being the same thing as “feminizing” the churches, etc. etc.
I did tell her in one tweet that most churches, especially Baptist, are already male-led, they are not “feminized,” and that this male led view, based on complementarianism, has not helped women but has hurt them.
Complementarianism / Male Headerhip has played a role in perpetuating and covering up girls and women who are abused.
Ms. Mefferd also posted a link on her Twitter to a news story about a woman who made a false rape claim against a cop, as if to suggest, what, that most women who say they were raped are lying??
I am so disappointed in Ms. Mefferd for taking this approach.
I would think after all her time corresponding with Abuse Survivor bloggers, such as Deb and Dee, and seeing how often churches deny abuse in their churches, and that churches cover up abuse, that she would know not to pull something like that. But she did.
And here is the link to that Tweet by Janet Mefferd so you can see for yourself:
https://twitter.com/JanetMefferd/status/999384830851895296
Mefferd wrote above that tweet, which was a link to a news story:
Nobody, not even participants in the “Me Too” phenomenon, or women speaking out against the sexist views of guys like Paige Patterson, or saying all men are rapists.
Ms. Mefferd is really acting as a rape apologist now. That’s what M.R.A. (Men’s Rights Activist) guys do – they claim all or most women lie about rapes, and it acts to discredit rape victims.
I may tell her some of this in a tweet or two. I’m shocked she’s showing such insensitivity on such a sensitive topic.
There are a lot of men also asking for change in Baptist churches. In the Kingdom of God, there are no distinctions in race, class or gender. It is not wrong to seek to make this right, that all those in Christ would complement each other with their spiritual gifts to fulfill the Great Commission together. It is wrong to subordinate any believer to the point that they cannot participate in this great privilege.
KCBI is a listener-supported station (unlike KWRD which is corporate owned). So if there is a groundswell of people opposing their decision (along with decisions to no longer contribute) they will likely reconsider.
That being said, the verse in question talks about being a pastor or church leader, not an evangelist. TT is clearly disqualified from leading a church but not the latter.
YEs. And been ignored or told all sorts of horrible things.
This is not new. It’s just that people are actually listening…
Daisy,
I think part of her point was that a woman should not be believed just due to being a woman, which is not what anti sex assault advocates are arguing.
When women come forward to say they were sexually attacked, they are generally dis-believed. I told her based on most studies I’ve seen, most rape victims are female, raped by men.
And it takes those women a lot of courage to come forward and report it to cops, or just to tell their families.
When other rape victims see another victim get dragged through the mud for stepping forward, it has a chilling effect on them… they choose not to report to cops, community, or their family. That’s what people mean in the context of sexual abuse discussions when they say “believe women”
They’re NOT saying that all women are sinless, no woman has ever filed a false accusation, or that all men are attackers.
I am so disappointed in Ms.Mefferd over this and some of her other related tweeets this evening. I cannot tell how much of this is she sincerely does not understand what non-complementarians and anti-sex assault people are saying, or if she is deliberately playing obtuse.
Despite What You May Have Heard, “Believe Women” Has Never Meant “Ignore Facts”
https://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/a13977980/me-too-movement-false-accusations-believe-women/
It is remarkable to me that most of these people who will appeal to the exact wording of the Bible to justify not having women pastors, deacons, elders, etc… Refuse to follow the much more explicit rules in Bible concerning the behavior of pastors, deacons, elders, etc…
That is a heartbreaking post. This woman’s story, like that of Dr. Klouda, reminds me that no matter how bad the misogynistic rhetoric sounds, it’s even worse when you apply it to real lives. So much pain and destruction in the name of correct doctrine!
Mark R,
Interesting. So you think a guy who missed his clergy privilege and had multiple affairs with women is qualified to be a preacher so long as it is not inside the church building but outside the church building even though he is preaching to Christians? If so, I disagree.
I don’t see where that verse specifies “pastor”, or where it even implies it. I also don’t see in the New testament where “pastor” is defined as a leadership role. Will you direct me to the NT verses where I find out exactly what a pastor is and lead me to the language within the Bible where I can see how that verse applies to pastors? Also, do you really think, at the end of the day, that anyone under these circumstances should listen to Tullian at all now on matters of morality or truth?
I’ve done my own laundry since 1977.
These guys need to Grow Up.
I define ‘sin’ as an event, an action in real time, which is also the Jewish view* (generally speaking).
If it’s an alleged ‘flaw’ in me that I can’t remedy, then all the old dead exegetes from Augustine to Papa Chuck are right, and I can never be ‘good enough’ because the Almighty demands a standard of perfection that I can’t meet.
I now categorically reject the latter view.
*Shmuley Boteach encapsulates it best in an essay here:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/the-tyranny-of-perfection_b_514338.html
I know this is a long video, but N.T. Wright has some pretty good stuff on “sin” before Augustine et al.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukyNU51OcnA&t=4s
At one point (I can’t remember where in the video, but it’s worth a complete watch anyway) he says something to the effect of “A lot of people have been raised to believe that God’s law is a like a bar that if you can’t jump over it, that’s it: you’re done, and God is bound to destroy you.” But then he goes on to a much more holistic view of sin as something which must be dealt with, not because God is a petty and petulant tyrant, but rather because it is a hindrance to the broader plan of the formation of the Kingdom of Heaven both in this life, and in the “life after life after death,” to borrow his Wright’s phrase.
Daisy,
Unfortunately, several women I cherish and respect very much were either raped or abused, and their stories follow a similar process of being discounted on the grounds of, “Oh, that could never happen!” or “Oh, you’re just exaggerating!” or “Oh, it wasn’t really like that!” — from people that should have stepped in to heal and protect them.
Likewise, I also have experienced cultures on both sides of the country, whether overtly Christian or overtly secular, treat young men along the lines of “rapist-until-proven-innocent.” And even then, “potential-rapist-until-proven-impotent.” And even then, “Monster-until-proven-six-feet-under.”
I think that’s the problem with a lot of discussion going on in the public attention right now: the idea that to support one type of victim is to invalidate another.
I suppose that is the inherent difficulty of topics like this — especially when identity comes into the mix.
What I consider an evil is that:
1. Women are taught to view themselves as worthless because they are not men
(I know several wonderful young women who tried to kill themselves after being raped and taught this view, and having their sense of value be destroyed both by the perp and by the people who should have helped — both by Christian and secular leaders and culture)
while at the same time:
2. Men are taught to view themselves as worthless because they are men
(I know several wonderful gentle young men who killed themselves because they were convinced they were a menace to society simply because they were taught, among other things, that men are naturally rapacious monsters — both by Christian and secular leaders and culture)
Far too often it seems people are rightly angry at the abuse going on, but turn to identity rather than individual action as a guideline for the anger that is rightly directed against the evil itself.
What I find terrible is that to try and support the one, in the view of many people, is to try and invalidate the other…
Healing should not be a zero-sum equation.
Mark R,
“That being said, the verse in question talks about being a pastor or church leader, not an evangelist. TT is clearly disqualified from leading a church but not the latter.”
+++++++++++++++++++
Mark, where’d your common sense go off to, now?
Steve,
“I now must make this judgment a matter of public commitment. I believe that any public accusation concerning such a pattern requires an independent, third-party investigation.”–Al Mohler
++++++++++++++++++++++++
except CJ and Sovereign Grace??
(only liars, pretenders, and morons buy the notion that their previous so-called ‘investigation’ was independent)
Into the land of Exact Legal Definitions and Looking for Loopholes.
And True Believers.
“GAWD Said It; I Believe It; THAT SETTLES IT!”
Sorry all, he is beating you at you own game and laughing out loud!! Throw out all those passages about male leadership in the church and then try to hold him to an absolute Biblical standard of church leadership. He wins!!! Book contracts, seminars on “healing sinners”. The cash will fill his coffers. And you are to blame.
According to a Washington Post article a document outlining Montgomery’s termination states: “Public disagreement does not align with Scripture”. I think most everyone reading here is capable of debating that poor assertion.
If you look at Tullian’s Facebook picture that comes up IMO it sure says a lot. This is the one in a slight “V neck” T-Shirt with shadows.
It looks more like a picture that someone would put for a dating site than someone trying to get back into the ministry. I would say that this picture borders on not being “modest” but I just remembered that modesty only applies to women. 😉
Seriously though the picture could be worse I question just how appropriate it is.
review of Jessica Johnson’s book finally up.
https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2018/06/prelude-and-review-of-jessica-johnsons.html
I would strongly recommend anyone who attend MH who can handle reading PhD level writing to read the book. The review is no less than 12,000 words, half of it’s the actual review (2nd half) and the first half is a whirlwind tour of twenty years of stuff MD has published from a 1992 op ed up to excerpts from Real Marriage that serves as a prelude to Johnson’s description of how best to understand what MD’s style and substance has been.
I feel obliged to post a supplemental warning, the 1992 op ed got so ghastly I thought that William Wallace II was the TONED DOWN version of Mark … but it’s included in the first half to give people a clear sense of how vitriolic the guy was in his college days. Absolutely NSFW reading. 🙁 It’s becoming clearer to me that Mark and Dan Savage were interconnected brands up here in Seattle for 1996 to 2016 stretch. So I would caution readers to keep that in mind. I don’t want to shock anybody with a no-filter Mark who’s even cruder than any of us previously thought he could be.
Poor William Wallace II…
He never realized Braveheart was highly fictionalized.