Perry Noble and Tullian Tchividjian – Disgraced Pastors Who Still Want to Lead

“God can take a mess and turn it into a miracle.”

Perry Noble

https://twitter.com/perrynoble/status/925777207762542592Last Sunday (12/3) Perry Noble launched his Second Chance Church, and it appears to be virtual, in other words, online only. Looks like he plans to use social media to communicate with his followers.

On December 3, Noble did a status update on Facebook, featuring his very first Second Chance sermon. It’s entitled: “So I Screwed Up, Now What?” If you’d like to know what he said, you can watch the video below.

Perry Noble is obviously excited because at this writing close to 60,000 people have viewed his video. (Remember, yours truly is numbered among those who tuned in). We can’t help but wonder about the breakdown between the sycophants, the curious, and the critics.

As Perry Noble discusses ‘second chances’, he uses the book of Jonah as his text. He says “storms do not discriminate”. No doubt, he is comparing himself to Jonah. He also says that when we have lost all hope, we still have a Lord that provides.

Here’s the serious problem… the elders at the church that Perry Noble started, New Spring, have determined that Noble has disqualified himself as a pastor. It is absolutely stunning that Noble is ignoring their admonitions to get help and stay far away from the pulpit.

In his message, Perry Noble makes the following remarks:

“He [God] can take a mess and turn it into a miracle. Jonah got a second chance.”

“How long should it be that we step into our second chance opportunities?”

Noble is quick to say that Jonah was given a second chance after three days. He then admits that he has been struggling for the past 18 months, and obviously he believes God is giving him a second chance.

Then Noble goes on to say that Second Chance Church is being launched digitally. He hopes to have a physical location in Anderson, South Carolina sooner rather than later. And yes, he is already soliciting donations in his first sermon. As some of the comments on his Facebook page indicate, Noble definitely has his followers.

Our advice to them is:

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

Perry Noble believes God has given him a second chance. We find it incredible that he is refusing to stay out of the pulpit (virtual or otherwise) at least for an extended period of time.


Then there’s Tullian Tchividjian, who once served as senior pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. You may remember that this was the church that D. James Kennedy pastored.

Tchividjian, a grandson of Billy Graham, has had multiple affairs and was defrocked by his denomination – the Presbyterian Church of America. He has gone from being a highly regarded pastor to one of the worst religious leaders in South Florida in less than a decade. (see screen shot of Dee’s Tweet below)

Several weeks ago Tullian Tchividjian, who identifies as a ‘Sinner & Saint” on his blog, write a post entitled “Broken Christmas”. Here are two excerpts (see screen shots below).

https://www.tullian.net/articles/broken-christmas********

https://www.tullian.net/articles/broken-christmasTchividjian ends his post with these words:

https://www.tullian.net/articles/broken-christmasSo there you have it. Tullian Tchividjian, who now dreads Christmas due to his broken family, plans to dole out advice this weekend to those who will be experiencing a broken Christmas.

Dee hit the nail on the head with the following Tweet:

These two men need to step away from the pulpit. They have disqualified themselves as pastors and should choose another profession. It is stunning to see how quickly they have returned to the limelight in order to teach and preach to others.

We are praying that those who have an ear to hear what these two fallen Christian leaders say will wise up and realize that these are not leaders to be followed. Noble and Tchividjian need to humble themselves before Almighty God, seek forgiveness, and stay out of the public eye. Of course, it’s not gonna happen because they derive their income and image from their public persona.


Comments

Perry Noble and Tullian Tchividjian – Disgraced Pastors Who Still Want to Lead — 175 Comments

  1. An excerpt from Tullian Tchividjian Blog
    “…during the spring and early summer of 2015—due to my own sin and selfishness. I was unfaithful to my wife and therefore deserved to lose both my marriage and the ministry God had given me….
    “But as shocking as all of my self-imposed losses were, my instinctive response shocked me even more. Rather than blaming myself for all the hurt I caused, I blamed everyone else for all the losses I was experiencing. The self-pity, the rage, the self-justified resentment, the deluded rationalization, the deep selfishness, the perverted sense of entitlement—it was all there. Everyday. All day.
    “As I’ve said elsewhere, I was lost, undone and angry at God, others, and myself—doing everything I could to “rescue” myself from the wreckage I caused. I was in full self-salvation mode. What should have been my wake-up call to a newfound humility and repentance became my excuse to dig in my heels even deeper. I was heading off into the far country…
    ” I was known for saying that God loves bad people because bad people are all that there are. So I knew I was bad—I just didn’t know I was THAT bad…”
    “What I see now that I couldn’t see then is that this explosion had been building for a few years. There was a slow and subtle shift that came on like the slow creep of the tide rather than a sudden tidal wave. It was a shift from locating my identity in what God had done (the message of the Gospel) to locating my identity in what I had done (my success as a messenger of the Gospel).”
    https://www.tullian.net/articles/being-kicked-into-freedom

  2. If they wanted to become a hospital chaplain or run a soup kitchen–I might believe they were serious about ministry. Where an “online following” means nothing, where you might write a single book, where a minister of the gospel doesn’t earn 10x those around them. Then I might believe they were truly repentant and desired to really minister to others.

    But I don’t.

  3. I went to read the pajama page blog to refresh my memory and saw this:
    ” 8 Jan 2013
    “I was made aware this afternoon that there exists a court order governing the disclosure of much of the testimony and documents in the NewSpring case. I have subsequently removed several posts and edited two others in order to comply with that order. If you reblogged or reposted any of the information that I removed you will need to remove that information from your site immediately.

    Although I had communicated my intentions to begin posting about the details of the case with NewSpring’s lawyers last month, we miscommunicated, and I sincerely apologize for my error.

    NewSpring and its pastors have not attempted to censor or silence the blog in any inappropriate manner, and their communication with my attorney this afternoon was satisfying to all sides.
    After a quick reboot as I re-filter what I can say and how, I’ll be back.”
    http://www.pajamapages.com/temporary-service-disruption/

  4. sandy c wrote:

    Are these two guys calvinistas, new reformed or whatevers?

    They are both “Chameleon Charismatics” where calling and theology is determined by a finger in the wind. I think Noble is still friends with Fur Tick. Whatever they were; they are now purveyors of distorted love and forgiveness.

  5. What i have been able to figure out so far is that Perry Noble was removed from pastorship on July 1 2016, was in a 30 day rehab in july, celebrated 14 months sober on 11/14/17 according to his facebook.
    Someone that can do math tell me if that makes sense-

  6. sandy c wrote:

    Funny you should mention soup kitchens- Tullian posted a thing on Dec 4 about helping out at a homeless shelter, lol who knows but i understand your skepticism.

    I’m not talking about a few days. I’m talking about dedicating their lives to it. Surrendering all the “big name” stuff and investing really needy people without expecting much in return.

    These guys clearly want to keep their “platforms” and their following and likely the money that comes with big pastor jobs.

  7. sandy c wrote:

    What i have been able to figure out so far is that Perry Noble was removed from pastorship on July 1 2016, was in a 30 day rehab in july, celebrated 14 months sober on 11/14/17 according to his facebook.
    Someone that can do math tell me if that makes sense-

    Actually he didnt say celebrated 14 months sober on the 14th-
    On Nov 14th 2017 in his facebook post he said he had “over 14 months”

    https://m.facebook.com/?stype=lo&jlou=AfccGuVT9EH6lNT7NCWLrUnUuPjpQeOqJIx0BMJKqTn72P3S0rFjz0vqrY4QrFMZbKvRZY4nbQ2sDVfbuqu4oelyD8KNPdhKbYlsJkJuHGZlxQ&smuh=5596&lh=Ac919awLHWlo2BV6&_rdr#!/story.php?story_fbid=1529636680458151&id=163968103691689

  8. ishy wrote:

    I’m not talking about a few days. I’m talking about dedicating their lives to it. Surrendering all the “big name” stuff and investing really needy people without expecting much in return.

    These guys clearly want to keep their “platforms” and their following and likely the money that comes with big pastor jobs.

    I did find it odd that through all this time since he got fired he has always called himself pastor or pastor p
    Personally if i got fired i dont think i would call myself pastor, its not a genetic thing you are born with and always have! Lol

  9. I do want to ask everyone–what does true repentance look like?

    I feel like in many churches we have this idea that someone says sorry and then everybody is supposed to pretend like nothing happened, even if the person still doing the exact same thing. Or there’s not even a belief in the need for repentance in churches. And that is exactly why people like this stay in these big celebrity positions or go right back to them after doing horrendous things.

    What does it mean to repent? What kind of life-change should it bring? Is there even such a thing as true repentance?

  10. sandy c wrote:

    What i have been able to figure out so far is that Perry Noble was removed from pastorship on July 1 2016, was in a 30 day rehab in july, celebrated 14 months sober on 11/14/17 according to his facebook.
    Someone that can do math tell me if that makes sense-

    In his 10/12/17 facebook post that i referred to in the #1 comment in this thread, Perry says “when i walked into rehab last July…” so maybe thats my number confusion. In October 2017 “last july” to me would have meant july 2017, but i think he meant july 2016, the same month he got fired.
    So why it is something i was checking is that i never met anyone that didnt remember their sober date. Down to the minute sometimes!

  11. ishy wrote:

    I feel like in many churches we have this idea that someone says sorry and then everybody is supposed to pretend like nothing happened, even if the person still doing the exact same thing. Or there’s not even a belief in the need for repentance in churches.

    Just thinking that New Cal churches are an exception. Leaders seem to get the benefit of immediate forgiveness, but the peons surely don’t.

  12. Perry Noble was removed from pastorship on July 1 2016, was in a 30 day rehab in july, On Nov 14th 2017 in his facebook post he said he had “over 14 months” sober

    14 months from July 2016= September 2017.
    So what im saying is that in november 2017 he said he had over 14 months sober. He didnt say 15 months or 16 months so there is a couple months missing there. Relapse? Went thru ”rehab” but didnt quit drinking right away?

    Someone that can do math tell me if that makes sense- maybe i counted wrong

  13. Perry Noble and Tullian Tchividjian – Disgraced Pastors Who Still Want to Lead

    IT’S THEIR DIVINE BIRTHRIGHT!

  14. ishy wrote:

    Just thinking that New Cal churches are an exception. Leaders seem to get the benefit of immediate forgiveness, but the peons surely don’t.

    Highborn and Lowborn, by Divine Right.

  15. sandy c wrote:

    Are these two guys calvinistas, new reformed or whatevers?

    They’re Whatever is the current fast track to the Most Money, Prestige, and Power.
    (God Talk, God Talk, GAWD Talk…)

  16. sandy c wrote:

    In a facebook post dated Oct 12 2017 Perry Noble wrote about his 30 day rehab experience last july and that he was dx’d with PTSD as a result of first being molested when he was 6yrs old and that he was using alcohol as a coping mechanism.

    Problem is, this guy’s a known Liar for GAWD.
    Sympathy ploy PR?

  17. sandy c wrote:

    What i have been able to figure out so far is that Perry Noble was removed from pastorship on July 1 2016, was in a 30 day rehab in july, celebrated 14 months sober on 11/14/17 according to his facebook.
    Someone that can do math tell me if that makes sense-

    “If Pastor Pee says so, Two Plus Two Equals Five.”
    — paraphrase of Reichsmarshal Goering

  18. Deb wrote:

    The Gospel Coalition featured Tullian’s blog on its website until May 2014.

    Thanks Deb, i didnt follow the link- those gospely guys trigger my ptsd lol

  19. ishy wrote:

    I feel like in many churches we have this idea that someone says sorry and then everybody is supposed to pretend like nothing happened, even if the person still doing the exact same thing. Or there’s not even a belief in the need for repentance in churches.

    Just thinking that New Cal churches are an exception. Leaders seem to get the benefit of immediate forgiveness, but the peons surely don’t.

    “Diane Langberg, PhD
    @DianeLangberg
    Christians can be so desperate to see redemption that we are quick to identify it where it has never been. . . and that can be very dangerous.”

  20. Notice how Tullian is playing the sympathy card. That’s one of the biggest red flags to look for according to Martha Stout’s book The Sociopath Next Door.

    Let’s not forget the other family who’s suffering a broken Christmas this year thanks to Tullian. Why did he chose to deliberately break up their family by going after a married woman? That’s some pretty cold heartedness.

  21. sandy c wrote:

    “Diane Langberg, PhD
    @DianeLangberg
    Christians can be so desperate to see redemption that we are quick to identify it where it has never been. . . and that can be very dangerous.”

    Very good quote.

    Reminds me of someone I knew when I was just a baby Christian. He “got saved” at the campus ministry I attended. The pastors of the ministry and the church it was associated with went on and on about what a miracle it was. He had been on drugs and had a number of other problems and was in his 30s trying to get a degree. Only a few weeks later, I remember he tried to harass me into dating him (I was 18). He also tried to get me to give him money for some MLM. I totally blew him off but heard rumors that he did similar things to other students. The pastors kept talking about that he was a baby Christian and “just needed time” since his life was totally changed.

    Not six months later, he was proclaiming himself Jesus returned. Suddenly nobody spoke of him again.

  22. Avid Reader wrote:

    Notice how Tullian is playing the sympathy card. That’s one of the biggest red flags to look for according to Martha Stout’s book The Sociopath Next Door.

    “Poor, Poor MEEEEEEEEEEEE!”
    And everybody falls for it.

  23. And now from something completely different:

    Over here in SoCal, we have at least FOUR major wildfires going, whipped by 70-knot Santa Ana winds with humidity BELOW 5%. The one near Ventura has burned EVERYTHING between Ojai and Ventura and up the coast halfway to Santa Barbara with no end in sight.

    But there’s been no Righteous Tweets from the usual suspects about God’s Punishment for Homosexuality and/or Marijuana. What gives?

  24. Between Noble & his church, there are no good guys. That bunch enabled him & his shenanigans. I’d probably give “Living Faith” church a miss too. Social psychology tells us that like minds tend to stick together.

  25. ishy wrote:

    What does it mean to repent?

    re·pent 1 (rĭ-pĕnt′)
    v. re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
    v.intr.
    1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite: “[He] liked to visit prisoners and admonish them to repent of their ways” (Adam Hochschild).
    2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one’s mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.You’d better accept their offer before they repent.
    And Matthew 3:8
    “Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:”
    I believe that we often arent capable of changing ourselves and stopping our sins, but we are capable of turning to Jesus who has the power to deliver us from sin and its power over us. Sometimes that isnt an instant transformation or deliverance and sometimes it is.
    I dont think there is some set time before people can go into ministry after being delivered, but if there hasnt been real deliverance they definately shouldnt be holding a church office. There would be fruit of repentance- the fruit of the Spirit, peace love joy temperance goodness humility etc. When i watched Perry Nobles ‘rant’ i didnt see any of that kind of fruit. Doesnt maybe mean he is still drinking but the phrase dry-drunk comes to mind…
    Going back to work right away after treatment is usually not advised for that reason and because relapse is possible if there is too much stress right away.

  26. ishy wrote:

    I feel like in many churches we have this idea that someone says sorry and then everybody is supposed to pretend like nothing happened, even if the person still doing the exact same thing.

    I think one of the truest signs of someones repentance is their true deep felt sorrow at how they have hurt others- which shows by making amends and truly apologizing from the heart.

  27. ishy wrote:

    what does true repentance look like?

    Luke 3:8 and Matthew 3:8, Bring forth fruit worthy of repentance, i.e., Zacchaeus paid back 4x what he had taken, all money and all profits, and then some.

  28. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Over here in SoCal, we have at least FOUR major wildfires going, whipped by 70-knot Santa Ana winds with humidity BELOW 5%. The one near Ventura has burned EVERYTHING between Ojai and Ventura and up the coast halfway to Santa Barbara with no end in sight.

    Stay safe! I been watching tweets on it- horrible!

  29. ishy wrote:

    What does it mean to repent? What kind of life-change should it bring? Is there even such a thing as true repentance?

    You have to make a commitment to change. When I was younger, I went down the wrong path. Underage drinking & petty crime. I got caught. Did community service & never did it again. I consider that repentance. There was no bolt from God, no magical insight, I wasn’t going to church then so no prayers were involved. I decided that I didn’t want that path & stopped.

    Noble & Tullian, there’s is less path and more pathology. I don’t think they can stop.

  30. sandy c wrote:

    Perry Noble was removed from pastorship on July 1 2016, was in a 30 day rehab in july, On Nov 14th 2017 in his facebook post he said he had “over 14 months” sober

    14 months from July 2016= September 2017.
    So what im saying is that in november 2017 he said he had over 14 months sober. He didnt say 15 months or 16 months so there is a couple months missing there. Relapse? Went thru ”rehab” but didnt quit drinking right away?

    Someone that can do math tell me if that makes sense- maybe i counted wrong

    If you don’t count the 30 days in rehab as “sober” then it works out to 14 + months.

  31. Jack wrote:

    Between Noble & his church, there are no good guys. That bunch enabled him & his shenanigans.

    Yeah, i wondered about his church also- they wanted the huge church growth celebrity status too but distanced themselves from him like they had nothing to do with it. Probably just another charisma filled or financial marketing strategy pastor to take his place so they can try to break the 100,000 saved mark! Bizarre how both noble and that church are so focused on numbers of believers. Maybe they dont see people- just dollars per convert. Makes me ill.

  32. Jack wrote:

    You have to make a commitment to change. When I was younger, I went down the wrong path. Underage drinking & petty crime. I got caught. Did community service & never did it again. I consider that repentance. There was no bolt from God, no magical insight, I wasn’t going to church then so no prayers were involved. I decided that I didn’t want that path & stopped.

    The Greek word literally means “to turn and go the other way”, which seems to be exactly what you did then. I do think in a Christian context it means to turn and go toward God and leave your former life behind, but I do think it literally can apply to Christians and non-Christians alike.

    I don’t hear a lot of sermons on repentance unless it’s in something like a Ray Comfort style gospel presentation. It’s a really uncomfortable and big topic to many people and I don’t think many people are really willing to give up everything to follow Christ. I certainly don’t think a lot of these celebrity Christians are willing to give up everything to work in a job where they get no acclaim.

  33. Mister Bill wrote:

    If you don’t count the 30 days in rehab as “sober” then it works out to 14 + months.

    Ok but i never met anyone in recovery that ever did that. (Unless they were using in rehab lol), their sobriety date is when they stopped using, not when they got out.

  34. Mister Bill wrote:

    sandy c wrote:

    Perry Noble was removed from pastorship on July 1 2016, was in a 30 day rehab in july, On Nov 14th 2017 in his facebook post he said he had “over 14 months” sober

    14 months from July 2016= September 2017.
    So what im saying is that in november 2017 he said he had over 14 months sober. He didnt say 15 months or 16 months so there is a couple months missing there. Relapse? Went thru ”rehab” but didnt quit drinking right away?

    Someone that can do math tell me if that makes sense- maybe i counted wrong

    If you don’t count the 30 days in rehab as “sober” then it works out to 14 + months.

    Mr Bill were you on Saturday Night Live? Sorry couldnt help asking lol

  35. I think the hardest thing alot of this brings up is what does a christian look like? This blog talks about celebrity pastors and pastors that seem to be in it only for the fame and money, but churches are filled with people that are willing to give grace and forgiveness liberally because they themselves need it so much. I cant judge another alcoholic if i havent had perfect abstinence, or someone that commited adultery if i have ever looked at anyone with adultery in my heart. The question of qualifications for leadership are different but even saying a christian is unfit for the position of pastor doesnt mean i can condemn them and not be forgiving and graceful to them as i need that myself. I have never met anyone that perfectly fit the discription of even elder perfectly except once, but his church thought he was too meek for the job and chose a flamboyant loud guy instead.

  36. “He [God] can take a mess and turn it into a miracle. Jonah got a second chance.” (Perry Noble)

    But even after his second chance, the Bible story about Jonah ends abruptly. We last see him sulking under a gourd vine, whining that his plan for ministry didn’t work out.

    “And Jonah stalked
    To his shaded seat
    And waited for God to come around
    To his way of thinking.
    And God is still waiting
    For a host of Jonahs
    In their comfortable houses to come around
    To His way of loving.”
    –Thomas Carlisle

    His ways are not our ways … no matter how hard we to try to force arrogant unrepentant comebacks on Him. He never comes around to ‘our’ way of thinking.

  37. Max wrote:

    But even after his second chance, the Bible story about Jonah ends abruptly. We last see him sulking under a gourd vine, whining that his plan for ministry didn’t work out.

    And what God wanted Jonah to do was exactly opposite of what Jonah wanted to do.

  38. “My kids are grown up, their mother and I are divorced, our family is broken.” (Tullian Tchividjian)

    Who broke it? Is it too much to ask a Gospel preacher to live a righteous life? The reason we don’t have much holiness preaching in American pulpits these days is because we don’t have many preachers who are holy … who set an example of victorious, rather than broken, lives before the people of God.

    Should we forgive “broken” pastors? Certainly! Restore those who have disqualified themselves from ministry? No. Can they ever serve in the Body of Christ again? Certainly! As leaders? No.

  39. ishy wrote:

    what God wanted Jonah to do was exactly opposite of what Jonah wanted to do

    Exactly. But Jonah still didn’t get it, even after he was puked up on the beach by a great fish.

  40. Lowlandseer wrote:

    And they’re not the only ones. Acts29 are welcomed back into partnership with TGC.

    And where are the fallen leaders of Acts29 (Mark Driscoll, President & Darrin Patrick, Vice-President)? Back in the ministry, of course!

  41. sandy c wrote:

    Probably just another charisma filled or financial marketing strategy pastor to take his place so they can try to break the 100,000 saved mark! Bizarre how both noble and that church are so focused on numbers of believers. Maybe they dont see people- just dollars per convert.

    Or Converts/Souls(TM) — not people — are just the Currency of Heaven.

    During my time in-country, a lot of Wretched Urgency Witnessing was fueled by the belief that God at the Great White Throne would judge you entirely on “How many did YOU lead to Christ?????” That your rank in The Kingdom (and size of your Crown of Glory in Heaven) would be determined entirely by “How Many Souls You Saved”. At which point, you went for personal advancement and the bling.

  42. Max wrote:
    Should we forgive “broken” pastors? Certainly! Restore those who have disqualified themselves from ministry? No. Can they ever serve in the Body of Christ again? Certainly! As leaders? No.

    Agree

  43. Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    what God wanted Jonah to do was exactly opposite of what Jonah wanted to do

    Exactly. But Jonah still didn’t get it, even after he was puked up on the beach by a great fish.

    The whole Book of Jonah is about Jonah being contrary and God having to set him straight.

  44. sandy c wrote:

    Mr Bill were you on Saturday Night Live? Sorry couldnt help asking lol

    “OHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!”

    (And the Celebrity Pastors like Deep Throat Driscoll, Tee Tee, and Pastor Pee alternate between Mr Sluggo and Mr Hands…)

  45. sandy c wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Over here in SoCal, we have at least FOUR major wildfires going, whipped by 70-knot Santa Ana winds with humidity BELOW 5%. The one near Ventura has burned EVERYTHING between Ojai and Ventura and up the coast halfway to Santa Barbara with no end in sight.

    Stay safe! I been watching tweets on it- horrible!

    I’m on the other side of Greater LA from the burn areas, and Greater LA sprawls for literally HUNDREDS of miles/kilometers. Though the big one being around Ventura has a local lore tie-in:

    In the Ojai area (north of Ventura and currently burning), the local Lovers’ Lane Ghost is “Charman”, who appears as a charred corpse reeking of woodsmoke — the local legend is that he’s the ghost of someone killed in a wildfire. Knowing this local lore, when I heard of the fire I thought “Charman’s gonna have company…”

  46. Max wrote:

    Can they ever serve in the Body of Christ again? Certainly! As leaders? No.

    I was wondering something. The qualifications for leadership that Paul gives- doesnt that mean that leaders were just mild sinners before they got saved. He was preaching in pagan areas and the people getting saved had been sinful pagans so i would think that lots of them would probably have been married several times. And if they had been pagans married to pagan women and their wives didnt get saved too, her behavior would likely disqualify him from leadership. And if mr & mrs pagan had 4 kids that had been raised in pagan-ville they probably couldnt be made to be in subjection to dad suddenly just because he got saved, even if 3 of the kids were well behaved theres always that one! So did Paul and Timothy have a really really difficult time filling all these leadership positions or were there tons of not really bad sinner families that got saved? I always wanted to ask that lol

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The whole Book of Jonah is about Jonah being contrary and God having to set him straight.

    Yep, i think alot depends on which translation people read it in. Mine says that God purposely let the gourd die for Jonah to really be able to get his feelings involved in what God was going to say. Then as God said ‘shouldnt i have had mercy on these..” God had a smile on His face and hugged Jonah. And Jonah was restored and happy to follow God again. 🙂

  48. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The whole Book of Jonah is about Jonah being contrary and God having to set him straight.

    Yep, fallen pastors need to look at it that way, rather than from the “second chance” vantage point.

  49. Max wrote:

    Back in the ministry, of course!

    Bottom-line … these guys cannot stay out of the lime light. It has little to do with a calling on their lives – they ‘must’ have the applause of men. What else would they do?

  50. ishy wrote:

    I certainly don’t think a lot of these celebrity Christians are willing to give up everything to work in a job where they get no acclaim.

    It seems they can only follow God if there is something in it for them.

  51. sandy c wrote:

    preaching in pagan areas … So did Paul and Timothy have a really really difficult time filling all these leadership positions

    Well, there’s no doubt that much of American is more pagan than Christian. I don’t have a problem with a man who once lived sinfully becoming a preacher after his conversion. It’s when a preacher returns to his vomit that disqualifies him from further ministry, IMO. Is there a case of a fallen pastor in the New Testament being restored to ministry? No.

  52. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But there’s been no Righteous Tweets from the usual suspects about God’s Punishment for Homosexuality and/or Marijuana. What gives?

    Oh my! I’ve got to get tweeting! I think God lit those fires to teach John Piper something. Don’t waste your wildfires!

  53. sandy c wrote:

    In a facebook post dated Oct 12 2017 Perry Noble wrote about his 30 day rehab experience last july and that he was dx’d with PTSD as a result of first being molested when he was 6yrs old and that he was using alcohol as a coping mechanism.
    https://m.facebook.com/home.php?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Flogin%2Fdevice-based%2Fpassword%2F&_rdr#!/story.php?story_fbid=1500213876733765&id=163968103691689

    If true, and he has not been treated for PTSD, that’s yet another reason why he shouldn’t go back into the pulpit.

  54. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And now from something completely different:

    Over here in SoCal, we have at least FOUR major wildfires going, whipped by 70-knot Santa Ana winds with humidity BELOW 5%. The one near Ventura has burned EVERYTHING between Ojai and Ventura and up the coast halfway to Santa Barbara with no end in sight.

    But there’s been no Righteous Tweets from the usual suspects about God’s Punishment for Homosexuality and/or Marijuana. What gives?

    That is my wife’s hometown area.

  55. ishy wrote:

    I feel like in many churches we have this idea that someone says sorry and then everybody is supposed to pretend like nothing happened, even if the person still doing the exact same thing.

    That is EXACTLY the impression I get from too many people about what “forgiveness” is. Forgiveness is defined as, I say I’m sorry; you say, that’s okay, I forgive you, and then we pretend like nothing happened. If the offendee even thinks about what happened ever again, they haven’t “forgiven”. If the offendee ever talks about what happened, they haven’t “forgiven”. If the offendee is ever angry about what happened, they haven’t “forgiven”. If the offendee doesn’t want the person in their life anymore, they haven’t “forgiven”.

    The onus is constantly on the offendee to forgive and never on the offender to repent.

  56. Forrest wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    And now from something completely different:
    Over here in SoCal, we have at least FOUR major wildfires going, whipped by 70-knot Santa Ana winds with humidity BELOW 5%. The one near Ventura has burned EVERYTHING between Ojai and Ventura and up the coast halfway to Santa Barbara with no end in sight.
    But there’s been no Righteous Tweets from the usual suspects about God’s Punishment for Homosexuality and/or Marijuana. What gives?
    That is my wife’s hometown area.

    Please be careful, anyone and everyone in that area. And if you’re told to get out, LEAVE!

  57. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Or Converts/Souls(TM) — not people — are just the Currency of Heaven.
    During my time in-country, a lot of Wretched Urgency Witnessing was fueled by the belief that God at the Great White Throne would judge you entirely on “How many did YOU lead to Christ?????” That your rank in The Kingdom (and size of your Crown of Glory in Heaven) would be determined entirely by “How Many Souls You Saved”. At which point, you went for personal advancement and the bling.

    HUG, the church I was part of in college judged your spirituality on how many people you converted. You only got to lead a Bible study after you’d converted someone. The Scripture in John 14 that talks about “bearing fruit” is interpreted as “converting people” and if you didn’t convert people, obviously, you weren’t bearing fruit, and God would end up cutting you off.

  58. Max wrote:

    Should we forgive “broken” pastors? Certainly! Restore those who have disqualified themselves from ministry? No. Can they ever serve in the Body of Christ again? Certainly! As leaders? No.

    Perhaps it depends. To say ‘no’ to any further leadership to pastors one would have to say that the role of pastor is so unique that it is an exception to the restoration of other people.

    For example, and apostle who was himself a designated leader was restored and continued in ministry and leadership–Peter. And there is the matter that David, disgraced or not, was not relieved of leadership as king. And then there is the odd story of John Mark the itinerate missionary/ evangelist who ‘left’ Paul resulting in Paul not wanting to travel with him but Barnabas taking John Mark on with him; whatever all that was about.

    And the matter that scripture does not give specific directions as to when people are to be restored and put back in ministry or when not.

    I am not talking about either of the two men who are the subjects of this particular conversation, but I am saying that there are in scripture examples of restoration and continuing in ‘ministry’ including leadership.

  59. Perry, Tullian and – let’s not forget – the also disqualified Mark Driscoll.
    Perry is following Driscoll’s lead with the online presence followed by a building.
    It bothers me that Mark now has “Mark Driscoll Ministries”. Who are worshipping again?

  60. @ nwhiker:
    I think one thing to keep firmly in mind is that a pastor is not supposed to be the boss. He is SUPPOSED to be a servant of the congregation. The pastors you mention are trying to get MONEY to LEAD. Not only is there something fishy about that – there is something very wrong.

  61. okrapod wrote:

    story of John Mark the itinerate missionary/ evangelist who ‘left’ Paul

    Scripture does not imply that John Mark had a moral failing when he “left” the ministry for a season. As noted upstream, there are no examples in the New Testament church of pastors who failed morally being restored to ministry. I’m not saying it’s impossible for such men to serve again, but the stumbling-block aspect of their failings should make them reconsider going into pulpit ministry again.

  62. nwhiker wrote:

    It bothers me that Mark now has “Mark Driscoll Ministries”. Who are worshipping again?

    Well, as Driscoll famously said in the Mars Hill days, “I am the brand.” “Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.”

    I suspect one of the lessons Driscoll learned from the Mars Hill collapse is that he’s never again going to put himself in a position where others could oust him from his own organization. No more plurality of equal elders, placing himself under a board, etc. I’d love to know how his current church’s by-laws, constitution, and governance are structured.

  63. Driscoll’s Leadership Structure: http://thetrinitychurch.com/leadership/

    Their leadership is described: The ministry of The Trinity Church is ruled by God, influenced by wise counsel, governed by a board, led by the Senior Pastor, run by staff, and carried out by Team Trinity on mission.

    Looks like none of his church members are on the Wise Counsel or Governing Board teams; they reside in Dallas or California.

  64. bendeni wrote:

    Well, as Driscoll famously said in the Mars Hill days, “I am the brand.”

    “L’etat, c’est moi.”
    — King Louis XIV

  65. sandy c wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    The whole Book of Jonah is about Jonah being contrary and God having to set him straight.

    Yep, i think alot depends on which translation people read it in.

    The best “translation” I heard was in one of the old Whole Earth Catalogs that recast all the issues with Nineveh into contemporary issues while keeping the whole tone and spirit of the original. Made it very fresh and unique. I remember the ending:

    “We are never told what Jonah answered to God’s ending question. Because all of us have to answer that question for ourselves.”

  66. Tina wrote:

    HUG, the church I was part of in college judged your spirituality on how many people you converted. You only got to lead a Bible study after you’d converted someone. The Scripture in John 14 that talks about “bearing fruit” is interpreted as “converting people” and if you didn’t convert people, obviously, you weren’t bearing fruit, and God would end up cutting you off.

    Where does that leave those of us who can’t manage to get a notch in our Bibles, never mind more notches than anyone else?

  67. Max wrote:

    there are no examples in the New Testament church of pastors who failed morally being restored to ministry.

    Someone noted on an earlier blog piece that Driscoll did not fail morally. Potty-mouth preaching and writing a pornographic book on marriage are not moral failings?! And, what about plagiarism – that is certainly not proper moral behavior becoming of a preacher. In my book, authoritarian abuse of one’s pulpit is not a manifestation of a high principle for proper conduct. Did Driscoll fail morally? Sure he did.

  68. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    sandy c wrote:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    The whole Book of Jonah is about Jonah being contrary and God having to set him straight.
    Yep, i think alot depends on which translation people read it in.
    The best “translation” I heard was in one of the old Whole Earth Catalogs that recast all the issues with Nineveh into contemporary issues while keeping the whole tone and spirit of the original. Made it very fresh and unique. I remember the ending:
    “We are never told what Jonah answered to God’s ending question. Because all of us have to answer that question for ourselves.”

    I always wanted to do a modern interpretation web series’ about biblical people like Jonah and Job. For example, Job’s friends were internet trolls. And Jonah could be a megachurch pastor who is called to leave everything and work with people who couldn’t pay him.

  69. okrapod wrote:

    I am not talking about either of the two men who are the subjects of this particular conversation, but I am saying that there are in scripture examples of restoration and continuing in ‘ministry’ including leadership.

    What are these scriptures?

  70. drstevej wrote:

    Driscoll’s Leadership Structure: http://thetrinitychurch.com/leadership/
    Their leadership is described: The ministry of The Trinity Church is ruled by God, influenced by wise counsel, governed by a board, led by the Senior Pastor, run by staff, and carried out by Team Trinity on mission.

    Yeah, I’ve seen that, but it’s not nearly detailed enough. Does the governing board have the ability to remove Driscoll as Senior Pastor (and if so, under what conditions)?

  71. I notice that sin and repentance get scant to no mention in either of their statements. I think that is telling.
    The language is all sort of therapeutic and generic — words like “messy” “broken” etc.
    Not only should they not pastor or lead, they should not try to be members of any church until they take personal responsibility, ask forgiveness, and show real repentance for what they have done.

  72. @ sandy c:
    I think there is a huge difference between repeated, major failure and people who have the occasional hiccup. And, there are some sins that mean you may never serve in that capacity again. Think teachers/child predation, doctors/gross malpractice, police officers/corruption, and now, politicians/celebrities/criminal sexual harrassment. Certain failings disqualify those to whom much responsibility is given.

  73. @ mot:

    The ones I mentioned. Peter after he denied Christ. David when he was disciplined but left in place as king. And John Mark, who for whatever reason ‘left’ Paul and whom Paul did not want to travel with further but whom Barnabas then took with him in the work.

    Max has used two words; ‘pastor’ and ‘ministry’ and I addressed that issue in my comment as to whether ‘pastor’ is such a different role as to require different treatment as opposed to other ‘ministry’. Frankly I see apostle as a higher office (Peter) but even at that level he was restored and there is no record that he was removed from ‘ministry’ even at that level of leadership. Before you think I am saying ‘pope’ let me be clear that I am saying ‘apostle’. .

    All this being said, there is no mention that I know of which includes specific directions as to how churches should handle pastoral misconduct, except what one might ponder and surmise about from the letters to the seven churches, but they are certainly not specific to what we are discussing here.

    I put all that together and I came to the conclusion that ‘it depends’.

  74. okrapod wrote:

    @ mot:

    The ones I mentioned. Peter after he denied Christ. David when he was disciplined but left in place as king. And John Mark, who for whatever reason ‘left’ Paul and whom Paul did not want to travel with further but whom Barnabas then took with him in the work.

    Max has used two words; ‘pastor’ and ‘ministry’ and I addressed that issue in my comment as to whether ‘pastor’ is such a different role as to require different treatment as opposed to other ‘ministry’. Frankly I see apostle as a higher office (Peter) but even at that level he was restored and there is no record that he was removed from ‘ministry’ even at that level of leadership. Before you think I am saying ‘pope’ let me be clear that I am saying ‘apostle’. .

    All this being said, there is no mention that I know of which includes specific directions as to how churches should handle pastoral misconduct, except what one might ponder and surmise about from the letters to the seven churches, but they are certainly not specific to what we are discussing here.

    I put all that together and I came to the conclusion that ‘it depends’.

    Thank you for your well reasoned response to my question.

  75. okrapod wrote:

    Max has used two words; ‘pastor’ and ‘ministry’

    Actually, three: pulpit – a wooden structure with tons of baggage all around due to it being birthed out of the traditions of man. Burning it would have tremendous positive results in Christianity. 🙂

  76. drstevej wrote:

    Driscoll’s Leadership Structure: http://thetrinitychurch.com/leadership/
    Their leadership is described: The ministry of The Trinity Church is ruled by God, influenced by wise counsel, governed by a board, led by the Senior Pastor, run by staff, and carried out by Team Trinity on mission.
    Looks like none of his church members are on the Wise Counsel or Governing Board teams; they reside in Dallas or California.

  77. okrapod wrote:

    And the matter that scripture does not give specific directions as to when people are to be restored and put back in ministry or when not.

    I appreciate your well reasoned comments. As far as I can ascertain, the former pastors mentioned in this blog are not asking to be restored or to be put back into ministry. If that were the case they would be petitioning some governing body to review their situation and render a decision. It seems that they are just going out on their own or starting another church, as is the case with Noble. The responsibility for determining whether such endeavors are fruitful is now in the hands of those who are thinking about giving money or volunteering their support. It’s simple; if you don’t like what they are doing don’t give money or support.

  78. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Tina wrote:
    HUG, the church I was part of in college judged your spirituality on how many people you converted. You only got to lead a Bible study after you’d converted someone. The Scripture in John 14 that talks about “bearing fruit” is interpreted as “converting people” and if you didn’t convert people, obviously, you weren’t bearing fruit, and God would end up cutting you off.
    Where does that leave those of us who can’t manage to get a notch in our Bibles, never mind more notches than anyone else?

    We wind up in eternal punishment, “cut off”.

  79. kin wrote:

    pulpit – a wooden structure with tons of baggage

    The American church started going South when celebrity preachers decided to construct stages over prayer altars so they would have more room to strut their stuff.

  80. Max wrote:

    As noted upstream, there are no examples in the New Testament church of pastors who failed morally being restored to ministry. I’m not saying it’s impossible for such men to serve again, but the stumbling-block aspect of their failings should make them reconsider going into pulpit ministry again.

    As Okrapod mentioned there is Peter- are you suggesting that if we saw 3 video clips on breaking news of a famous pastor denying Christ 3 times we wouldn’t say he had fallen from leadership and needed repentence and restoration to his ministerial position?

  81. @ sandy c:
    Peter didn’t fail morally. I said there are no examples in the New Testament church of pastors who failed morally being restored to ministry. IMO, pastors who are removed from ministry due to moral failure have betrayed the trust of their congregations and are disqualified from serving in a pastoral role again. “If” they repent, they should be forgiven and restored to fellowship within the Body of Christ, but not in a leadership role … there are many other ways to serve Christ.

  82. And another thing … as this blog title suggests, these disgraced pastors ‘want’ to lead again. But, do we hear an overwhelming cry from the Body of Christ for their leadership? These men will always have followers – that’s what celebrity worship does to the soul – but, is it a healthy thing for the rest of the Church to have them back?

  83. sandy c wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “We are never told what Jonah answered to God’s ending question. Because all of us have to answer that question for ourselves.”

    I love this ^

    Agreed. Every once in a while, HUG comes up with something you can stick on your refrigerator!

  84. One of the reasons i enquired if these fellows were neo cal or calvinist is that in my opinion that would mean that they would try and “repent” by changing their outward behaviour and not by the circumcision of the heart that is done by Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit. Its painful and definately takes time to heal up, i.e. a break from “ministry”
    If one is ‘saved’ in a church that doesnt lead people to personal relationship with Jesus but instead ‘know Jesus’ like they ‘know’ Abraham Lincoln- (think he was a great guy, memorize things he said, tell others what a great guy he is and start a profitable Abraham Lincoln fans and emulators club) then one would have a difficult time repenting. Especially if they were bad pagan sinners to begin with and not just “minor” sinners that had their families in subjection, quiet wife obedient kids, not given to much wine etc.
    These guys have such huge followers, i believe, because truly sinful pagans in the world (like me) can relate to their struggles and get really frustrated going to churches with pastors that preach only on minor sins or when they preach on major sins its obvious they dont have a clue what its like.

  85. sandy c wrote:

    are you suggesting that if we saw 3 video clips on breaking news of a famous pastor denying Christ 3 times we wouldn’t say he had fallen from leadership and needed repentence and restoration to his ministerial position?

    If the denial was moral failure, we should say he had fallen from leadership, needs repentance, but not restoration to his ministerial position.

  86. Max wrote:

    IMO, pastors who are removed from ministry due to moral failure have betrayed the trust of their congregations and are disqualified from serving in a pastoral role again. “If” they repent, they should be forgiven and restored to fellowship within the Body of Christ, but not in a leadership role … there are many other ways to serve Christ.

    I understand what your saying, but we dont have a canonized list of moral failures that if one falls into they are not able to ever minister again. My little Rosanna Rosannadanna influenced comment about pastors saved in paganville was to point out that if you go by the actual legal requirements for elder/pastor that paul wrote anyone that had remaried before getting saved would be disqualified as probably would anyone whose wife and kids didnt get saved the same day and if one of the little paganettes got into trouble then pastor previous sinner would have to be removed from office of leadership. Hence the only pagans saved that would be filling leadership positions would be mild sinners and definately the nobles and tullians of the world would prob never have been allowed to hold office to begin with.

  87. I think the bigger issue is that ‘church’ was not meant to be a gathering of people that went to a building to hear just one man stand up front and tell people what God says to do. If church was run more like an AA meeting with all being given a turn with prophecy, teachings etc. We would have both the converted mild sinner’s wisdom and prudence as well as the wisdom of the really bad sinner converted by Jesus, and not the ‘fame’ of either getting in the way. Oh and if the leadership also consisted of financially honest stewards being part of of it all we wouldnt have so much corruption. We wouldnt see so many pastors falling under pressure, or boring pastors losing all their congregants and lots fewer celebrity pastors.

  88. Max wrote:

    And another thing … as this blog title suggests, these disgraced pastors ‘want’ to lead again. But, do we hear an overwhelming cry from the Body of Christ for their leadership? These men will always have followers – that’s what celebrity worship does to the soul – but, is it a healthy thing for the rest of the Church to have them back?

    Depends- i have noticed that perry seems to have a real understanding of grace for the sinner similar to what john bunyon wrote when he was writing about his moral failures, backed by scripture solidly. However i think perry has serious issues that mean he shouldnt be a pastor until they are dealt with but that doesnt mean never. If he is truly a christian (and we really cant judge that because we arent Jesus who knows peoples hearts) then he would benefit greatly from having strong oversite and co-leadership.

  89. I was thinking about the Billy Graham dynasty and what it might have looked like as a child raised in it. To both a child that was biological and ones adopted.
    Franklin has the exterior qualifications for leadership but has said some very controversial (*cough *cough untruthful) things lately.
    Tullians branch has struggled with outward sins more which have influenced their qualifications for leadership.
    Anne seems to have an evangelical gift when she isnt under pressure in her private life.
    I wonder what it was like having a famous father that was gone serving the Lord so often and the pressure to be a christian and follow in famous shoes and hear everyone in your family and outside it compare you to such a high benchmark. Maybe some resentment over having an absent father, which could never be expressed because he was serving God! And maybe it never happened in the family but i know it did in the public- the knowing your not a real graham but an adopted one. Just stuff i was thinking about.

  90. Here’s a radical idea for these guys. Be a tentmaker for a bit and don’t try to lead but instead serve. Don’t solicit for,donations but get hands-on and be part of a ministry where you’re at the hands and feet level. Step away from the microphone.

  91. sandy c wrote:

    Depends- i have noticed that perry seems to have a real understanding of grace for the sinner similar to what john bunyon wrote when he was writing about his moral failures, backed by scripture solidly. However i think perry has serious issues that mean he shouldnt be a pastor until they are dealt with but that doesnt mean never.

    It seems that many of the comments regarding Perry are looking for penance as a sign of repentance. Penance being some type of voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong. The self punishment could be something like working in a soup kitchen for 5 years and keeping a low profile. But such penance overlooks serious issues that need to be addressed.

  92. Ken G wrote:

    But such penance overlooks serious issues that need to be addressed.

    Yes, since this is a public blog i havent really said much about that- but i think there are absolutly serious issues that need to be addressed by proffessional consult and possibly medication.

  93. I’d like to ask for prayer for the small town i am living in. The suicide rate has doubled in the last year. Its been all age groups including elderly, but the latest was a 15 yr old that was bullied at school. Thanks

  94. Max wrote:

    @ sandy c:
    Peter didn’t fail morally. I said there are no examples in the New Testament church of pastors who failed morally being restored to ministry. IMO, pastors who are removed from ministry due to moral failure have betrayed the trust of their congregations and are disqualified from serving in a pastoral role again. “If” they repent, they should be forgiven and restored to fellowship within the Body of Christ, but not in a leadership role … there are many other ways to serve Christ.

    Exactly! Their disqualification from ofgice shoukd be permanent.

  95. Whenever I read about these two there are 2 things which always come to mind:
    A) The time factor. There never seems to have been enough time for these individuals (plus MD) to really have made progress on the issues they had which lead to their downfalls int he first place. It’s ridiculously accelerated & that makes it totally suspicious. Then all it looks like is a need to be in the limelight & in a place of power.
    B) Capability. Noble comes across as actually too unwell to be in a position of leadership, let alone public leadership. Tullian as too unreliable, morally. Why are they subjecting themselves to the pressures & potential downfalls of very public ministry? Who on earth is advising them? Is it just that neither of them have skills to do anything else?

  96. One issue in determining what should be the results of whose sin as regards ‘ministry’ and/or leadership has to be whether or not the person had what it took to do the job in the first place. If the person should never had been in that position in the first place, then ‘restoration’ would be ridiculous. It would merely be repeating a prior mistake.

    However, I think that denying Christ is light years worse than sexual sin (‘moral sin’) and I think that the issue of Peter is at the crux of thinking about restoration. The early church dealt with the issue of restoration for those who denied Christ during the early persecutions. IIRC there were those who wanted those people never restored to church, and there were those who wanted it done after various lengths of penance which was basically how they proved themselves. Restoration won out.

    I think that a way of thinking such as was present in the early church is the best idea. That would be to consider the situation, evaluate the person, prescribe a time of waiting and penance, and then restore or not based on the whole picture.

  97. Ken G wrote:

    It seems that many of the comments regarding Perry are looking for penance as a sign of repentance. Penance being some type of voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong. The self punishment could be something like working in a soup kitchen for 5 years and keeping a low profile. But such penance overlooks serious issues that need to be addressed.

    I don’t think this is penance. I think this is what Christians are really supposed to be doing. All the time. All of them.

    And I think the church has lost site of that.

  98. okrapod wrote:

    IIRC there were those who wanted those people never restored to church, and there were those who wanted it done after various lengths of penance which was basically how they proved themselves. Restoration won out.

    Do you have examples of the penance and the lengths that were actually used in the early church?

  99. Max wrote:

    @ sandy c:
    Peter didn’t fail morally. I said there are no examples in the New Testament church of pastors who failed morally being restored to ministry. IMO, pastors who are removed from ministry due to moral failure have betrayed the trust of their congregations and are disqualified from serving in a pastoral role again. “If” they repent, they should be forgiven and restored to fellowship within the Body of Christ, but not in a leadership role … there are many other ways to serve Christ.

    Peter didn’t fail morally? What do you mean by “morally?”

    He lied to save his own skin. He had three opportunities to correct that lie in front of everyone, yet each time he insisted more and more vehemently that he did not know Christ — even when confronted by multiple independent eyewitnesses who knew the truth.

    If that doesn’t count as a “moral” failure, I don’t know what does — unless you consider “moral failure” to mean only “sexual immorality,” but I think that would be shaky ground to stand on.

    Keep in mind: “But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 10:33).

    As I said, if that is not a moral failure, when you deny the one you claim to believe is the very source of morality, I’m not sure what else could possibly be. (Unless you count jaywalking, or hogging the fast lane, or double-dipping at a nacho party — I think in any case, those are mortal)

    As for betrayal of trust, Peter totally betrayed Jesus and the other disciples — I’m not sure there’s any way around that conclusion — abandoning their fate to the hands of the Romans and Pharisees.

    Sounds like a pretty flaky foundation upon which to build a church against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail…

    And yet, Jesus forgave Peter and restored him, after making him correct the wrongs — for each denial, he was given a second chance to proclaim his love. Does that mean he was unqualified to be the Rock of the Church in the first place? If we use the standards some people here are suggesting, then absolutely — but I’m not sure that’s a conclusion they would want.

  100. ishy wrote:

    I don’t think this is penance. I think this is what Christians are really supposed to be doing. All the time. All of them.

    A third position on that is that it is both penance and is also what Christians are supposed to be doing..

    The dictionary definition of penance and which Ken G quoted in comment at 1:12 AM this date is not a complete picture of the idea of penance in either the early church or in some Christian traditions today.

    This link is a Catholic link but nevertheless I think that some people might gain some insight into what some people mean when they use the word ‘penance’, seeing that it is not routinely used in those areas of protestantism of which I am aware.

    LIke for instance the idea that penance is voluntary but not necessarily self imposed; the penitent does not choose the penance but may accept or reject it based on whether they want reconciliation or do not; rather like academic make up work if one fails ones’ orals for board certification. You don’t have to do it; you can just quit the process, but if you want the certification you do the makeup requirements and take the test again.

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/penance

    It seems to me, and please folks read ‘it seems to me’ that in a theological position of sola fide if and only if fide is understood to mean only what one thinks as opposed to having an aspect of also what one does, then the idea that repentance can get to mean only expressing regret and saying that one is sorry is an idea which is in place in that theology. That eliminates any aspect of ‘works’ or anything that might look like ‘works’. So, if that is sufficient for salvation why would it not be sufficient for forgiveness and restoration of the ‘fallen’ believer? Would that not be how some people might see this issue?

    It looks like, again notice I said ‘looks like’, this could circle and circle and never reach a common agreement as to the concepts behind it. One could ask that if God could and would snatch a person from darkness to light, from a lost state to a found state, from damnation to salvation merely if the person believes (cognition) and confesses with their mouth (scripture reference here) why would God not forgive and restore a sinning believer who experiences remorse, admits his fault and claims forgiveness. Why require more in one situation than in the other situation, theologically and practically?

    To me this looks like a weak spot in some forms of thinking. Salvation by predestination but sanctification by ‘works’, or salvation by cognition (aka ‘belief’) but forgiveness by cognition (remorse) and also penance (works?). This is a place where IMO the concepts of the earlier church are more consistent theology than some more recent theologies.

    On other words, either “I repent” is enough in both situations, or it is not enough in either situation, that would be consistent. Perhaps wrong, but nevertheless consistent.

  101. ishy wrote:

    I do want to ask everyone–what does true repentance look like?

    I feel like in many churches we have this idea that someone says sorry and then everybody is supposed to pretend like nothing happened, even if the person still doing the exact same thing. Or there’s not even a belief in the need for repentance in churches. And that is exactly why people like this stay in these big celebrity positions or go right back to them after doing horrendous things.

    What does it mean to repent? What kind of life-change should it bring? Is there even such a thing as true repentance?

    I think it looks like Zaccheus. “Right now, I give half of my possessions to the poor, and I will pay back four times the amount to anyone I have cheated.”

    Most of us know the story, I expect. But stop and think about what that would have cost him. First, he stands up publicly and admits that he has done wrong. He is specific about the sin that he has committed, not just a generic “mistakes were made” type thing. He cheated. He stole. He admits that he has got rich from his dirty work.

    Second, he gives away half his stuff, right then and there. So he’s got to go through his cash, his bank account, his property, all his material assets. Work out what it’s worth. Divide it. Sell some stuff, probably. Possessions that he has accumulated himself, for himself. Maybe they have comforted him and made up for the fact that deep down he knows he’s a traitor to his country and his God. No matter. he’s giving them away.

    Third, he will pay back four times what he cheated out of people. So now, he’s got to sit down and go through his ledgers. Who did I cheat? Where do they live now? Track them down. Face them. How will they react when this treacherous collaborator knocks on their door? He’s got to face their potential hatred, rejection, anger, retaliation, in order to hand them a large sum of money. And then walk away, even if they don’t appreciate it or thank him or tell him that they forgive him. How long do you think it would take to find all those people and go through that over and over? He’s got to earn that money from somewhere, or maybe sell even more of his stuff to fund these reparations.

    That’s repentance. Not just saying you’re sorry, although it starts there. But really wanting to restore to the people you hurt all the dignity and safety and wealth that you took away from them. Diane Langberg said in a talk I heard, that if someone says “I’m sorry, now can I have it back?”, then they’re not really sorry at all. This isn’t about earning forgiveness, it’s about recognising the scope and depth of our wrong and wanting to put it right as far as it is up to us, which is the fruit of true repentance.

  102. Ken G wrote:

    Do you have examples of the penance and the lengths that were actually used in the early church?

    See the link in my comment of 8:33. I was typing while you were. It regards process. That is as far as I know. I do not have anything about specific times and circumstances and to what extents this process was used.

    I have heard Catholics from my childhood who said they had gone to confession and had some penance assigned. What they talked about was mild and appropriate in my estimation-again rather like academic make up work designed to strengthen the penitent in some weak area-prayers for example.

    That is all I know about how it was done in the remote past (the link) or how it may be being done in the present (word of mouth). There is a story of some king who had to kneel in the snow before wherever the pope was and do it for several days, I think. And then there was of course that movie about the guy carrying the cross around, and I think that probably this is an area which may well have been seriously abused from time to time.

  103. In my personal opinion Jesus did not just mean ‘think’ or ‘accept certain propositions’ when he said follow me. Believe, yes, and also there are the explanations that Jesus gave. Unless you…then you cannot be my disciple. That was not a multiple choice quiz on doctrine.

  104. sandy c wrote:

    I think the bigger issue is that ‘church’ was not meant to be a gathering of people that went to a building to hear just one man stand up front and tell people what God says to do. If church was run more like an AA meeting with all being given a turn with prophecy, teachings etc. We would have both the converted mild sinner’s wisdom and prudence as well as the wisdom of the really bad sinner converted by Jesus, and not the ‘fame’ of either getting in the way.

    Exactly!

  105. okrapod wrote:

    It seems to me, and please folks read ‘it seems to me’ that in a theological position of sola fide if and only if fide is understood to mean only what one thinks as opposed to having an aspect of also what one does, then the idea that repentance can get to mean only expressing regret and saying that one is sorry is an idea which is in place in that theology. That eliminates any aspect of ‘works’ or anything that might look like ‘works’. So, if that is sufficient for salvation why would it not be sufficient for forgiveness and restoration of the ‘fallen’ believer? Would that not be how some people might see this issue?

    I agree that this is how many Protestant Christians see it. But they fail to understand that true faith is evidenced by good deeds. If I have truly repented, then I will begin to grow in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Those are not ethereal qualities but things which entail real action in this real world. In my own life, I have seen God bring out self-control in me when I wanted to go out drinking with certain friends. He has developed patience in me as I raise an autistic son. He has given me real love to deal with people I dislike, rather than dismissing them as jerks, as I would have done previously. I was a self-hating, negative, self-harming young person, and God has pushed that poison out of me with His love and the positivity and joy of my Christian brothers and sisters.

    There’s no way I could earn my salvation with those things, because they are still works in progress, and I am not perfect. I still need Jesus to stand in the gap for me. But I have seen fruit in my life as I have grown closer to God. So they are not penance, but the fruit of repentance.

  106. IMPO, Mr. Noble’s theological system lacks the depth to deal with his inherent “incurvatus in se”. His “church” planting efforts are a feeble attempt to sew his own fig leaves together, and point to a much deeper problem and serve to reveal the condition of his heart.

    His only answer to his problem, (only vaguely recognized by himself) is to ask the question “so what?”, or as he puts it, “now what?”.

    If he was truly interested in answering the question, he would look outside of himself to wise counsel (fresh, not the same people he already knows), or to the Scriptures (if he can remember where he lost his copy). Clearly he is woefully unacquainted with the latter and unwilling to pursue the former, so he turns to the cheap and easy self gratification of the internet. His post is a testimony to the fact that he just doesn’t get it, and that he probably never will.

    IMHO, it will take much more personal battering and tribulation before he sees the light.

  107. okrapod wrote:

    On other words, either “I repent” is enough in both situations, or it is not enough in either situation, that would be consistent. Perhaps wrong, but nevertheless consistent.

    I can agree with this.

    However, I don’t think either of these men–and many of the people that TWW has to write about–were ever doing what they were supposed to be doing as ministers of the gospel. I think their big, public downfalls were just the point where they couldn’t hide it anymore.

    And so many Christians let this happen because they aren’t seeking to “act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before God” (Micah 6:8). But who is teaching them to do these things if their so-called leaders are doing the opposite? (And not by just a little bit, in most of these cases). It ends up being a circular mess.

    So while I think people can do penance, I’m not sure that it’s really a penance to do what you were supposed to be doing to begin with. I think that’s the most basic level of following Christ. Pastors are servants and if they don’t know how to be a servant or don’t want to–they don’t qualify.

    BTW, I do not think there is anything wrong with not being a pastor. There’s nothing wrong with walking away. I do not understand the argument that pastors “have” to be let back in. No, they don’t. And there’s not anything wrong with them not being a pastor any longer even if they have repented.

  108. A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    he turns to the cheap and easy self gratification of the internet

    Like his following recent spiritual tweet:
    Dear Lord!!
    I had no idea the human body could produce this much snot!!!
    Help me Jesus!!

    And everybody said Amen!! I like preachin’ like that!!

  109. ishy wrote:

    Pastors are servants and if they don’t know how to be a servant or don’t want to – they don’t qualify … I do not understand the argument that pastors “have” to be let back in.

    Ishy, many of the situations addressed on TWW are indications that the American church has lost its way. These “pastors” would not have had pulpits in past generations; they have them now because the pew likes their style … they are so entertaining. Men of God are few these days; preacher-boys are aplenty. There’s a vast difference between the two, as well as the disciples they produce.

  110. Max wrote:

    A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    he turns to the cheap and easy self gratification of the internet

    Like his following recent spiritual tweet:
    Dear Lord!!
    I had no idea the human body could produce this much snot!!!
    Help me Jesus!!

    Twitter…
    The place to tell the entire world how “I MADE A POOPIE!”…
    With a new Tweet as each one drops into the pot.

  111. okrapod wrote:

    It seems to me, and please folks read ‘it seems to me’ that in a theological position of sola fide if and only if fide is understood to mean only what one thinks as opposed to having an aspect of also what one does, then the idea that repentance can get to mean only expressing regret and saying that one is sorry is an idea which is in place in that theology. That eliminates any aspect of ‘works’ or anything that might look like ‘works’.

    i.e. Just sit on your ass basking in your Great FAITH FAITH FAITH.

  112. drstevej wrote:

    Driscoll’s Leadership Structure: http://thetrinitychurch.com/leadership/

    Their leadership is described: The ministry of The Trinity Church is ruled by God, influenced by wise counsel, governed by a board, led by the Senior Pastor, run by staff, and carried out by Team Trinity on mission.

    This reminds me of an ARC church. I watched their 8 videos on their core concepts, and I distinctly recall their main guy, Chris Hodges, explain how pastors are accountable to what ARC calls “Overseers,” who are all other pastors. He said it was like the way parents aren’t accountable to their kids.

    In other words, pastors are the wise parents, and we are the goofy kids. So your role as a church attender is to, “Sit down, shut up, and do as we say. Oh, and give us money.”

  113. sandy c wrote:

    One of the reasons i enquired if these fellows were neo cal or calvinist is that in my opinion that would mean that they would try and “repent” by changing their outward behaviour and not by the circumcision of the heart that is done by Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    It’s a good question, sandy. I was also thinking that Neo-Cals believe strongly in a pretty extreme version of total depravity, from birth even. So if everyone is totally depraved, and all sin is equally evil, so what if I had an affair? Or abuse alcohol? Everyone else is equally depraved, and the only difference between them and me is that my dirty laundry got aired out in public.

    “You’ll never find the perfect pastor, so why not come to my church and support my lifestyle, because at least I’m honest and open about my shortcomings.”

  114. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    It’s a good question, sandy. I was also thinking that Neo-Cals believe strongly in a pretty extreme version of total depravity, from birth even. So if everyone is totally depraved, and all sin is equally evil, so what if I had an affair? Or abuse alcohol? Everyone else is equally depraved, and the only difference between them and me is that my dirty laundry got aired out in public.

    That’s not how they treat non-leaders though. They are almost vindictive on anyone who they think messes up that is not a pastor or elder. Particularly women. Men might be “redeemed” quicker if they believe they will toe the party line and support the leadership. But they extend reams of “grace” to pastors and elders no matter what they do or say and how they act.

    So I don’t think many of the leaders really believe as much in total depravity as they claim. It’s just an easy way to subdue the peons.

  115. The Man Who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:

    If we use the standards some people here are suggesting, then absolutely — but I’m not sure that’s a conclusion they would want.

    Patriarchy- being enticed by Eve is a bigger sin than crucifying Jesus

  116. Liz wrote:

    ver? He’s got to earn that money from somewhere, or maybe sell even more of his stuff to fund these reparations.

    That’s repentance. Not just saying you’re sorry, although it starts there. But really wanting to restore to the people you hurt all the dignity and safety and wealth that you took away from them.

    Maybe this is closer to the current issue than thought. Your excellent writing on the ordeal of zacheus’s repentence however comes to nothing if he was indeed wealthy and had only to take an eighth of his income to cover his sins, and handing someone more money than you owe them guarentees forgiveness and hand them a bag of cash and dont say a word will suffice. When the townsfolk hear you are repaying people they will flock to you, you dont have to go find them at all. Easy-peasy and upsetting to those who had to do it the way you wrote.

  117. ishy wrote:

    That’s not how they treat non-leaders though. They are almost vindictive on anyone who they think messes up that is not a pastor or elder. Particularly women.

    Highborn and Lowborn, and the Lowborn must be kept in their place.
    And women are the Lowest of the Lowborn.

  118. Liz wrote:

    There’s no way I could earn my salvation with those things, because they are still works in progress, and I am not perfect. I still need Jesus to stand in the gap for me. But I have seen fruit in my life as I have grown closer to God. So they are not penance, but the fruit of repentance.

    And then there are those really bad sinners that are forgiven horrendous sins and addictions and are so profoundly thankful and so filled with the Holy Spirit that they have all this fruit and with no credit due them dance through every tribulation in life. It reminds me of those that worked all day in the blistering heat and got the same pay as he who only worked an hour. And it reminds me of the one that owed more loving more.
    I want to say that i am not trying to be contrary to everyone but am trying to show what i have witnessed personally not having gone to church much at all, especially not churches where nominal sinners go, but having seen the hand of the Lord in the lives of junkies and whores and real murderers. Some of them become excellent pastors and evangelists and when under too much stress the old sins tempt them. Being surrounded by ‘nominal’ sinners that are saved and in leadership is often the way they endure without falling back into sin again. Without it however few of them even find forgiveness and restoration to Jesus much less a position in leadership because not only do others judge them more harshly- they themselves do also.

  119. Liz wrote:

    Third, he will pay back four times what he cheated out of people.

    Note the term “pay back four times”.

    In ha-Torah, some property crimes are paid back twofold, some fourfold. A Jewish source once told me about why the difference: Paying back fourfold is the penalty for stealing property that cuts into the victim’s livelihood. You are not only stealing his property, but his ability to make a living.

  120. A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    If he was truly interested in answering the question, he would look outside of himself to wise counsel (fresh, not the same people he already knows), or to the Scriptures (if he can remember where he lost his copy). Clearly he is woefully unacquainted with the latter and unwilling to pursue the former,

    If you had read more than one of his posts you would see that he has done both and frequently.

  121. ishy wrote:

    That’s not how they treat non-leaders though. They are almost vindictive on anyone who they think messes up that is not a pastor or elder. Particularly women.

    This is true. And tragic. It fits the ARC concept, where leadership are the adults, running the show and immune from punishment, and the pew-sitters are children, subject to constant punishment. And since women can’t be leaders, they are perpetual children.

    I’ve been thinking about the way Tullian portrays his problems. “My kids are grown up, their mother and I are divorced, our family is broken.” I don’t him sadly admitting that he’s the one who broke it, that he made foolish choices that shattered his family and messed up his Christmas. Tullian is a victim of life, just like Perry.

    Total depravity is for the “children” in the pews, you people. Total victimhood is for the “adults” in leadership. Definitely a double-standard.

  122. Liz wrote:

    There’s no way I could earn my salvation with those things, because they are still works in progress, and I am not perfect.

    Question is, did God ever expect perfection from you in order to be accepted by him? Did you as a parent expect perfection from your child, and then cut him off and declare him ‘spiritually dead’ and ‘separated’ from you because he couldn’t achieve it?

  123. I just saw on the secular press that the woman with the year book in the Roy Moore case has admitted that part of what is written there-she wrote herself. I am not mentioning the alleged details nor the language used in the announcement that I saw. Apparently Gloria Allred is going to hold a press conference this afternoon.

  124. Bridget wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    Too bad she did that. Wrong. It does not invalidate the other six or seven women who have complaints against him.

    But it will.
    Like the Creation Wars, where any move away from YEC Genesis 1 Literalism invalidates the entire Bible.
    Or a debate, where any little typo in your writing automatically invalidates EVERYTHING you’ve written, pounced on and torn to pieces.

    P.S. In the latest news item about Roy Moore, he’s channeling Doug Wilson re that “Peculiar Institution” of the Old South:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/roy-moore-america-was-great-during-slavery/ar-BBGnmaH?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

  125. Max wrote:

    We’ve got a new generation of preachers who proclaim Total Depravity (the “T” in TULIP) … and then go on to prove it themselves.

    But they’re The Elect, God’s Speshul Pets.

  126. Bridget wrote:

    Too bad she did that. Wrong. It does not invalidate the other six or seven women who have complaints against him.

    I didnt think there were that many, and still only one that is saying anything other than “tried to date her” This whole thing is showing me how complicated things can be- some are saying let him get elected and then removed so a repub will get the seat so that such a strong abortion proponent doesnt get elected.

  127. And news is saying the Pope is talking about change of the Lords prayer.
    The Seattle Seahawks (real football lol) have been having prayer circles after each game which include players from opposing team.
    Back to laundry 🙂

  128. And if all that were not difficult enough, it is snowing here. Snow this time of year here is so rare as to make one wonder if it is a portent of the apocalypse. Well, sort of anyhow.

  129. okrapod wrote:

    And if all that were not difficult enough, it is snowing here. Snow this time of year here is so rare as to make one wonder if it is a portent of the apocalypse. Well, sort of anyhow.

    Climate change is very real and it’s happening. We have an insatiable appetite for more, and in order to fuel it, something has to be burned. Fossil fuel fits the bill and it keeps the wheels turning.

  130. Now its not ‘forgery’ but just ‘added to’. i should have slept in today lol

    “Fox News has updated a report that initially said a woman accusing Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore of sexual assault had forged his entry in her yearbook.
    Beverly Young Nelson has accused the Republican Senate nominee of sexually assaulting her nearly 40 years ago when she was 16 years old. She told Tom Llamas, of ABC News, in a Friday interview that she made notes underneath Moore’s entry.”
    http://thehill.com/homenews/media/363990-fox-news-issues-correction-on-roy-moore-accuser-yearbook-forgery-headline?rnd=1512763203

  131. Liz wrote:

    If I have truly repented, then I will begin to grow in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Those are not ethereal qualities but things which entail real action in this real world. In my own life, I have seen God bring out self-control in me when I wanted to go out drinking with certain friends. He has developed patience in me as I raise an autistic son. He has given me real love to deal with people I dislike, rather than dismissing them as jerks, as I would have done previously. I was a self-hating, negative, self-harming young person, and God has pushed that poison out of me with His love and the positivity and joy of my Christian brothers and sisters.

    There’s no way I could earn my salvation with those things, because they are still works in progress, and I am not perfect. I still need Jesus to stand in the gap for me. But I have seen fruit in my life as I have grown closer to God. So they are not penance, but the fruit of repentance.

    Yes and that fruit whether grown quickly or slower is what shows in a persons life when they are following Jesus. I think i read your comment too quickly earlier.

  132. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But his YEC Ideology is Pure, and THAT’s what counts!

    I’m not sure if the “creation” word has anything to do with YEC?

    The article says:
    “Creation Fest is the nation’s largest and oldest Christian music festival…”

  133. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (And the Celebrity Pastors like Deep Throat Driscoll, Tee Tee, and Pastor Pee alternate between Mr Sluggo and Mr Hands…)

    Oh no, you need to hand out a decoder ring, LOL.

    Let me see how many of these I can get.

    Deep Throat Driscoll – my guess: Mark Driscoll
    Tee Tee – my guess: Tullian Tchividjian
    Pastor Pee – have no idea
    Mr Sluggo – have no idea
    Mr Hands – my guess: John Piper

  134. I don’t know if anyone already mentioned this, but Coral Ridge was a PCA Church … Presbyterian Church IN America … not “..of America”.

  135. I agree that none of these guys are qualified to be pastors. Even putting biblical qualifications aside, they are not qualified as regular every day people.

    One reason these guys keep trying to slink back into the pulpit may be because they are not educationally qualified to do anything else.

    Someone at Julie Anne’s board linked to some video about disgraced pastor Ted Haggard. He said that video documentary put the fear of God into other pastors.

    After Haggard was exposed for having used drugs or male prostitutes or whatever he did, the documentary showed him trying to get employment. He ended up selling insurance or vacuum cleaners or what have you door to door.

    He could not get employed, because there is no market for people with only seminary degrees who have pastoral experience.

    I think it was this:
    HBO – The Trials of Ted Haggard (2009)
    https://vimeo.com/93207547

    No pastor wants to be a Ted Haggard. They want to be able to go back to being a pastor to pay their bills. They can’t get jobs anywhere else.

  136. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But there’s been no Righteous Tweets from the usual suspects about God’s Punishment for Homosexuality and/or Marijuana. What gives?

    I’m very sorry about those fires. I just heard on the news that 2 dozen horses on a horse farm died. :o(

    Maybe the usual judgemental Christian dweebs prefer hurricanes or flooding to wild fires?

    You’d think that the Pipers and Robertsons would hop right on it to use as an example of God’s Righteous Anger On California, since a fire symbolizes Hell more so than flood water.

  137. The Man Who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:

    As I said, if that is not a moral failure, when you deny the one you claim to believe is the very source of morality, I’m not sure what else could possibly be.

    Good point. Not a pleasant point, but a good one.

  138. Daisy wrote:

    there is no market for people with only seminary degrees who have pastoral experience

    My son-in-law is a “bi-vocational” Baptist pastor. He has a B.S. degree in business and a Masters degree in Theology. He has a full-time job utilizing his business degree, plus pastors a rural church. He works long weeks with the combined jobs, but is not dependent on the church salary alone. He could pastor a larger church as a primary vocation, but knows just how ugly church folks can be – in SBC life, many churches are known to be “preacher-eaters” … it’s best to have a back-up plan to support your family. Not all the problems in the American church are pastors operating outside of the will of God – the pew is also off-track in many places.

  139. Daisy wrote:

    He could not get employed, because there is no market for people with only seminary degrees who have pastoral experience.

    I don’t think that’s it, though the job market is just tough in general.

    I think everything else is just too much work for these former megachurch pastors without the acclaim and powerbase that they crave. No getting other people to write your sermons for you while you go play golf with the most affluent members.

    Insurance is actually a fairly good job. It can pay well and most companies have benefits. And someone with a lot of charisma would do well in it. But it’s really hard work and the rewards seem slow to accrue. And not many people would read your book about how insurance changed your life and gain you a cushy speaking circuit and a 3-month sabbatical every year.

  140. Liz wrote:

    I think it looks like Zaccheus. “Right now, I give half of my possessions to the poor, and I will pay back four times the amount to anyone I have cheated.”

    I’m not so sure that was repentance, although I know that it is the popular understanding. Here is my explanation.

    Zaccheus was up in the tree and wanted to see Jesus. Jesus called Zaccheus by name, told him to come down and said that he must stay at his house that day. Jesus never mentions Zaccheus’s sins, but accepts him as he is. Zaccheus never mentions that he is a sinner, but receives Jesus joyfully.

    The crowds then start murmuring that Zaccheus is a sinner. Zaccheus in response to the crowds (not in response to Jesus) says that he will give half his possessions to the poor. It seems that Zaccheus was trying to justify himself to the crowds through this good work because Zaccheus was employed by the Roman Empire and was considered to be a traitor.

    Finally, Zaccheus tells the crowds that if he had defrauded anyone he would restore fourfold. He never admits that he has defrauded. It’s possible he may be certain that he has not defrauded anyone so the fourfold restoration would never be implemented.

  141. ishy wrote:

    Insurance is actually a fairly good job. It can pay well and most companies have benefits. And someone with a lot of charisma would do well in it. But it’s really hard work and the rewards seem slow to accrue

    I think someone with charisma and the gift of gab can do well in sales jobs such as real estate and automobiles, too. These may be a natural fit for pastors looking for a job in the secular world.

  142. Max wrote:

    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
    Total depravity
    We’ve got a new generation of preachers who proclaim Total Depravity (the “T” in TULIP) … and then go on to prove it themselves.

    Indeed! But if some schmuck, who has no notoriety, committed a smidgen of the sins these men committed, they’d be severely disciplined by the elders of their reformed church.

  143. I think there is a verse that says If you suffer do not suffer as an evil doer. What about the abundant life, joy and peace God came to give us as we but follow Him? These guys forget those verses and want to make money and justify their own sin by raising the I’m Broken but God still uses me flag there by helping other dull the voice of the Holy spirit in there lives as well. They want to change the fact that yes we are all sinners in need of grace to we can do as we darn well please behind closed doors, get away with it AND make money by making Gods grace cheap!
    All is foolishness is enabled by sheep who don’t read their Bibles and choose to follow people instead. Be careful where you are lead it may well be a very hot ending.

  144. Ken G wrote:

    I think someone with charisma and the gift of gab can do well in sales jobs such as real estate and automobiles, too. These may be a natural fit for pastors looking for a job in the secular world.

    I’m picturing a blue 70’s leisure suite and gold chains.

  145. ___

    Checking It At The Church Door: “Walk This Way, Talk This Way?”

    hmmm…

    Wartburg Watch is a Internet clearinghouse for identified improper Christian 501(c)3 ministry activity since its inception & creation in 2009.

    As such:

    1. Perry Noble has been placed on the TWW Christian ministry Watch list due to integrity, mental health, excessive improper alcohol consumption, and personnel issues. Caution is advised. Plug this into your browser: Perry Noble: site : Wartburg Watch (for further information)
    2. Tullian Tchividjian has been placed on the TWW Christian ministry Watch list due to integrity and adultery issues. Caution is advised. Plug this into your browser: Tullian Tchividjian: site : Wartburg Watch (for further information)

    You decide.

    (Please see your bible for details)

    ATB

    Sòpy

    😉

    – –

  146. Mae wrote:

    if some schmuck, who has no notoriety, committed a smidgen of the sins these men committed, they’d be severely disciplined by the elders of their reformed church

    Don’t do what I do … do what I say!

  147. Daisy you sent an interesting link about Ted Haggard and I wondered is Scottsdale Az. the landing place for messed up pastors? Did he leave a group of followers for Mark Driscoll to pick up and support him as well? Maybe there is an underground there for depraved pastors to get their feet back in the game>>>

  148. Thersites wrote:

    I’m picturing a blue 70’s leisure suite and gold chains.

    With a gold cocaine spoon hanging from the gold chains?

  149. Max wrote:

    Mae wrote:

    if some schmuck, who has no notoriety, committed a smidgen of the sins these men committed, they’d be severely disciplined by the elders of their reformed church

    Don’t do what I do … do what I say!

    And RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.

  150. Daisy wrote:

    Deep Throat Driscoll – my guess: Mark Driscoll
    Tee Tee – my guess: Tullian Tchividjian
    Pastor Pee – have no idea
    Mr Sluggo – have no idea
    Mr Hands – my guess: John Piper

    You’re right on re Deep Throat Driscoll and Tee Tee. (After Driscoll’s Song of Solomon series, you’ll know why I call him that.)

    Pastor Pee is Perry Noble, who recently also hit the comeback trail; it’s a slight respelling of the “Pastor P” title he is given by his dewy-eyed fanboys.

    Mr Sluggo and Mr Hands were characters in the “Mr Bill” claymation animation skits on old Saturday Night Live. Mr Sluggo was the bully who was always beating up on Mr Bill and Mr Hands was the unseen narrator (you only saw his hands working the clay figures) who was always setting Mr Bill up behind the scenes to be stomped on by Mr Sluggo. I’m sure some of the segments made it onto YouTube, try searching on “Mr Bill Show”.

  151. Daisy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But there’s been no Righteous Tweets from the usual suspects about God’s Punishment for Homosexuality and/or Marijuana. What gives?

    I’m very sorry about those fires. I just heard on the news that 2 dozen horses on a horse farm died. :o(

    Here’s the raw footage (without news-anchor commentary or stupid SnapChat filters):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97XosTtHNjI

  152. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Mr Sluggo and Mr Hands were characters in the “Mr Bill” claymation animation skits on old Saturday Night Live.

    I miss that era- funny was not violent (ecept for mr.bill) or nasty and we really did rofl, all the stars did well in their careers except for john 🙁
    I made my kids watch it!

  153. sandy c wrote:

    I miss that era- funny was not violent (ecept for mr.bill) or nasty and we really did rofl, all the stars did well in their careers except for john

    I made my kids watch it!

    “OHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!”

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