The Mysterious Case of The Red Binder: Tom Chantry and the Difference Between ARBCA.COM and ARBCA.ORG

“Habitual excuses for inactivity indicates little or no interest in what one ought to have done.”  ― Itohan Eghide, Master of Maxims link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=82935&picture=spiral-notebook-red-clipart
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I am sure that our readers are well aware that there is a difference between .org and .com at the end of a website address. Sometimes both .org and .com are available when applying for a domain name. If they are, it is usually wise to buy both .org and .com in order to prevent someone else from using your name in an attempt to confuse your intended audience. Sometimes, a person can use such name recognition to expose issues with the original website.

As our readers know, we are awaiting the trial of Tom Chantry who is a pastor associated with the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (better known as ARBCA.) Their web address is http://www.arbca.com. This organization has been adamant in its support of Chantry, even allegedly holding their own investigation into the allegations against Chantry, and then exonerating him.This extremely tight knit group of men also have ties to associates of John MacArthur, such as Frank Turk, who have behaved in a less than congenial manner towards those of us who believe that Chantry is guilty of the charges leveled against him.

To get the background on Chantry and my unfortunate encounters with Turk and Phil Johnson as well as a a cowardly creepster who sent a letter to my church and my husband’s employer demanding my excommunication (Duke University is not particularly interested in getting my church to excommunicate me(ROFL) and neither is my church…), please read the following post. Tom Chantry: What Does Guilty and Not Guilty Really Mean?

The other ARBCA

I was sent a link to what I thought was the original ARBCA.com group. However, this website’s address was ARBCA.org. The initials stand for Awareness in Reformed Baptist Churches of America!

This website was started by Anthony Battaglia. I learned that he used to be a deacon in an ARBCA church in Clinton, LA, until recently when the elders “severed” him from membership for posting the information on Chantry. He has a Facebook page as well. 

Battaglia’s former ARBCA church

I believe that his former church is most likely First Baptist Church in Clinton, LA. I think you will find the description of its history most interesting. It appears this church was, horror of all horrors, drifting towards Arminianism until it was bravely rescued by Dr Bill Ascol who brought it under the wing of the Founders Ministries, a Reformed group led by Dr Tom Ascol.

In the 1900’s the church became more Arminian until the coming of Pastor William (Bill) Ascol in 1983. Pastor Ascol led the church through a difficult reformation which necessitated both sound instruction and sorrowful church discipline. Under his leadership, the church became a sound supporter of Founder’s Ministries and contributed greatly to the growing reformation of “the doctrines of grace” in Southern Baptist life.

In 1993, Pastor Fred A. Malone came as pastor to carry on the reformation of the church. After a few difficult years of instruction and discipline, the church grew in unity and understanding of the reformed faith according to the 1689 London Confession. Under his leadership, the church joined ARBCA and has greatly enjoyed its fellowship and missions opportunities

ARBCA.ORG is seeking true biblical accountability within the ARBCA organization.

Brent Detwiler (Thank you, Brent) told me that Anthony Battaglia is not posting anonymously. He described him as *a great guy.*

I have yet to speak to Battaglia but it is evident to me, having been the victim of trash talking ARBCA men, that he has been put through the ringer. However, he is a man cut from the same cloth as many abuse advocates. He thinks covering up abuse has no place in God’s church. He stands tall.

Here is how Battaglia describes his website.

There is a great and growing need to promote awareness of particular issues within Reformed Baptist churches in America. Sadly there are congregations in America unaware of sin that is going on behind closed doors in their own church, their sister churches or their associational churches. Despite the fact that on paper these churches are supposed to be ruled by the congregation, they are not given the opportunity to evaluate facts or even be informed of situations that tarnish the Name of Christ, bring reproach upon the Church and devastate the lives of many.

ARBCA.org is dedicated to making the Reformed Baptist community, the greater evangelical community and the world aware of particular situations by posting factual, reliable content concerning the issues at hand.

What are the facts in the Tom Chantry abuse case according to Battaglia’s ARBCA.ORG?

TWW applauds Anthony Battaglia for being excommunicated from his ARBCA church for seeking and exposing the truth. He reminds us of Todd Wilhelm. Both of these men think child sex abuse in the church matters and should be exposed. Unfortunately, it appears to me that groups such as 9 Marks, which went after Todd, and ARBCA, which went after Anthony Battaglia, believe that friendship and *obviously superior* doctrine trump the long term health, faith and safety of children. I frankly just don’t get it. It must be a superior theology thing…

Police Reports

Battaglia has posted a number of links to the documents surrounding Tom Chantry’s situation. They are deeply disturbing. In our previous post on Chantry we posted the links to the police reports but here they are again at ARBCA.org.

The recorded conversation between the lead detective on the Chantry case and a deacon from FBC Clinton.

This conversation is eye opening. There is a discusses on the number of know victims as well as and expression of concerns by the investigator about the knowledge of ARBCA.com regarding Chantry’s activities.
Go to this link to listen.

The following is a recorded phone conversation on August 14th 2017 between an active (at the time of the call and the writing of this article) deacon from First Baptist Church of Clinton, Louisiana and the lead investigator on the Tom Chantry case for the Prescott, Arizona Police Department.

Tom Chantry: Did he get out of jail on a technicality while awaiting trial?

Battaglia discusses this issue and also provides the original court of appeals documents from the Simpson hearing.

The case of the *Red Binder.* Did ARBCA cover up the allegations of Tom Chantry?

Please go to the link provided to see the actual documents surrounding the Simpson hearing which was held to determine if Chantry should be held without bail. As we have already indicated, he appears to have been released from jail due to a technicality. However, the evidence present in that hearing is damning when it comes to the allegations against Chantry. This hearing revealed actions taken by ARBCA. This information will come up again in Chantry’s trial unless he pleads nolo contendere-a possibility.

In the state of Arizona, there are some cases in which an individual may be held without bond. Usually those cases where an individual is held without bond constitute cases where a person has committed a sexual crime with an individual under the age of 15. These cases are “capital cases” and subject to very serious sentencing by the court. A Simpson hearing is a full evidentiary hearing. The same evidence and witnesses may be called upon as in the actual criminal court trial. A Simpson hearing takes place to determine if there is “clear and convincing” evidence that “the proof is evident” and the “presumption is great” that the defendant actually committed the crimes they are accused of committing.

In this section, Battaglia presented his evidence and it is mighty convincing to me. Apparently, Pastor Chris Marley, pastor of Miller Valley Baptist Church, brought evidence to the Prescott police in a *red binder* which reportedly contained documentation of incidents involving Tom Chantry and children from 1995-2000 which occurred at the church. This binder may contain documents from the super secret ARBCA private investigation.

UH OH!

Pastor Marley inherited the red binder when he came to the church. Kudos to him for brining it forward!

Chantry’s defense attorney attempted to prevent the prosecutor from learning what was found in the *red binder.* However, the judge allowed the prosecutor access to the information. There had been some discussion that Chantry may have only be involved in overly zealous corporal punishment on children *under the age of 15.* In fact, the defense attorney tried to get the charges of sexual molestation removed.

However, the *red binder* appears to indicate that Chantry liked to rub the bare bottoms of the children after whooping them to “make them feel better…” Good night!! Not sexual?? Rubbish!

The defense attorney in this last page is trying to exclude the words “sexual molestation” from the report and only have them indicate “excessive, physical force”. He is doing this because this Simpson hearing only deals with the counts relating to molestation and not aggravated assault in determining to hold Tom Chantry without bail.

It appears that ARBCA did their own investigation way back when and did not report their findings to the police which is mandatory under Arizona law.

The following three pages clearly indicate and name The Association of Reformed Baptist Churches from December 13th, 2000 until December 16th, 2000 conducted an investigation into the criminal allegations of excessive force and inappropriate actions toward children.

We believe that Anthony Battaglia is to be applauded for his dedication to revealing the truth. We hope that his information will be helpful in the prosecution of Tom Chantry.

We have heard from some former members of ARBCA that Tom Chantry and his BFFs are claiming that Chantry is being persecuted for his faith. Our answer to that is quite simple. Codswallop!


I recently found this  post written by Tom Chantry on The Confessing Baptist. It is a commentary on Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll which was posted on 9/10/15. I find his thoughts rather concerning in light of the current situation. More and more, the Chantry debacle reminds me of the Iain D Campbell scandal. Both seemed to be able to brush off those nigglings from the Spirit. I would like to explore how they dealt with the inevitable guilt.

There is more. I took lots of screen shots (in case they disappear) and look forward to presenting some writings in the future.

Mark Driscoll, Tullian Tchividjian, & Reformed Baptist Polity
Pastor Tom Chantry encourages us to draw out the right lesson from Driscoll and Tchividjian controversy

…But will it (ed. note: church polity)preserve us from a badly mishandled scandal? No, not if we trust in polity alone. Forgive my transgression of theological categories, but right polity cannot save ex opere operato! To avoid scandal, or rather to handle it rightly when it comes, we need grace from on high. For this reason our polity must be pursued carefully and prayerfully by upright and humble men. Otherwise it will fail. We may wish to say that such terrible scandals as Driscoll and Tchividjian have perpetrated could never happen under our polity, but as our Presbyterian friends have discovered, they might! In fact, brothers, I would say that they have, only not so publicly…

The reason, however, is probably not polity. It is far more likely that the problem lies within our hearts. Maybe we do have one of those polities which, to expropriate Adams’ words, is “better fitted for being well administered than others.” Very well, but let us heed Pope also, and administer it well and faithfully.


Comments

The Mysterious Case of The Red Binder: Tom Chantry and the Difference Between ARBCA.COM and ARBCA.ORG — 120 Comments

  1. By the way, that ‘history’ from First Baptist Church of Clinton, La is creepy. Their so-called reformation consisted of disciplining people who didn’t subscribe to the doctrines of grace. Funny how they call them the doctrines of “grace” when the folks who proclaim this doctrine seem to be anything but filled with grace. What they (Ascol and those who took over the church) call sorrowful church discipline is actually just a way to bully people into believing Calvinism or else the gavel will come down and declare them rebellious heretics. What nerve these people have! It’s the exact playbook taken from Ernest Reisinger’s A Quiet Revolution.

  2. The investigative committee assigned by the ARBCA to conduct an investigation into the behavior of Tom Chantry. consisted of Mike McKnight, Pastor Tedd Tripp, and Pastor Richard Jensen.

    Mike McKnight was an elder at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, PA. The pastor of Grace Baptist was Walter Chantry, father of Tom Chantry. Walter Chantry was reportedly very upset with McKnight because of the report of the investigative committee.

    Pastor Tedd Tripp was the pastor of the Grace Fellowship Church in Hazelton, PA. Tripp and his brother Paul David Tripp have authored several books and are well known in evangelical circles, holding frequent seminars.

    By all accounts the investigative committee did a good job in obtaining the facts of the Chantry case but the Administrative Council decided to disregard.their recommendations and suppress their findings. The Administrative Council must have known they had a legal responsibility to report Chantry’s abuse to law enforcement but chose not to do so. At this point it would seem the members of the investigative committee had an ethical duty to inform law enforcement that Tom Chantry had physically and sexually abused children but they shirked their responsibility.

  3. I failed to mention that the third man on the investigative committee, Pastor Richard Jensen, was a retired homicide detective from the Suffolk County, NY police department. Surely Jensen should have known of the legal requirement to report abuse to law enforcement!

    I received this interesting comment from an influential meet of an ARBCA church:

    “It has been confirmed to me since I wrote you last, that the committee recommended that the case be referred to the authorities, but the Administrative Committee rejected that recommendation. I still cannot explain why so many men, and the members of the church in Prescott did not report this to the authorities except for the “bullying” nature of the men who lead ARBCA. Perhaps the parents of the children involved said “no”. But not even that resolves the matter for me. There exists a “community responsibility” to every other potential victim, if they allow such a man to simply slip away to hide and offend another day.”

    “I realize that this puts him (Tedd Tripp) and many other men for whom I have a deep and abiding respect, into a very suspicious light. I have never spoken to Tedd directly about his actions and I am certain that the committee of three men were sworn to some sort of secrecy regarding the matter.

    Everyone who had knowledge of the facts is responsible. If the ARBCA leaders did not report, someone should have at the time. I believe the “politics” of the Association was in part to blame. But there is no escaping that “the fear of man” played a significant role.”

  4. If I was geographically closer I’d stop by and shake Battaglia’s hand for having the courage to take a stand.

  5. @ kin:
    Me, too! This is a group of people who shoot the messenger first and then don’t ask any questions later/

  6. “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, ‘The Lord does not see us’ … Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them.” (Ezekiel 8)

    The office of pastor carries a great accountability before Holy God to do it right.

  7. http://arbca.org/tom-chantry-child-abuse-case/lead-detective-audio-file/

    The conversation of the detective and Battaglia is, as you mention in the post, “eye-opening”. The detective was forth-coming in answering Battaglia’s questions. I listened to it earlier from the last posting about Chantry.

    Churches and individual Christians could bother to make phone calls and look up public documents, as Battaglia has done. In other words, do the homework, and then get results, i.e., the truth. Public information. The detective works for tax-payers. Institutions could protect children. (Pro-life?)

  8. Is there a statute of limitation to be prosecuted for knowing you should report an issue to the police and not doing so?
    God bless Pastor Marley for not shoving this issue under the rug!!

  9. Todd, Dee, Deb others It’s not easy writing/reading about these issues. I cant imagine, well I get a bit in my line of work U run into a great deal of abuse. People with Developmental Disabilities are often victims of abuse and often such events. I will admit, to my shame, that their stories affect me.

  10. The Internet Archive preserves a pdf of the 2001 Directory of the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20020823135008fw_/http://65.71.233.194:80/arbca/pdf/ARBCA_Directory.PDF

    2001 ARBCA Adminstrative Council Members

    Earl Blackburn, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church, La Mirada CA (Chairman)

    David Dykstra, Reformed Baptist Church, Lafayette NJ

    John Giarrizzo, Grace Covenant Church, Gilbert AZ

    Tom Greene, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church, Kirkland WA

    Jamie Howell, Grace Baptist Church, Taylors SC

    Bruce Kronheim, Grace Baptist Church, Carlisle PA

    Don Lindblad, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church, Kirkland WA

    Tom Lutz, Edgewood Baptist Church, Anderson IN

    Steve Martin, Heritage Church, Fayetteville GA

    Mike McKnight, Grace Baptist Church, Carlisle PA

    Dale Smith, Grace Reformed Baptist Church, Rockford, IL

    Tedd Tripp, Grace Fellowship Church, Hazleton PA

  11. Thank you for keeping this in the light and not letting it get buried or ignored because of their tactics toward you. Also battagalia- blessed are you when men persecute you, leap for joy the bible says, because thats how they treated prophets of old. Like the earlier comment made about elders of old sinning in secret and thinking God didnt see it…God sends His faithful servants to proclaim it openly and publicly. ESPECIALLY when children are being abused! I am mindful of Jesus’ words about heavy millstones and deep seas! I have been following, with great sorrow, the Sutherland Springs FBC church massacre and i was extremely angry to hear that the shooter had been previously charged with not only domestic violence but also several gun charges- on more than one occasion he also pointed a gun at his first wife, but those charges were dismissed in a plea deal. That and the fact that even the d/v charges werent reported to law enforcement is what made the horrible massacre possible. I bring that up because a pastor who had 5 charges of child molestation/physical abuse that gets no charges or convictions because his church buddies covered it up and intimidated witnesses and people bringing facts to light will Definately molest again! I cant remember what Dee called it caswilla or something, but i call cowpoop!

  12. Darlene wrote:

    Funny how they call them the doctrines of “grace” when the folks who proclaim this doctrine seem to be anything but filled with grace. What they (Ascol and those who took over the church) call sorrowful church discipline is actually just a way to bully people into believing Calvinism or else the gavel will come down and declare them rebellious heretics.

    Totally yes on your post! I had a friend that started going to a “Grace Covenant church” and it was exactly the opposite of Grace. It was legalism, misogyny, control freaks! Its like they use words like ‘grace’ to sucker people in! What makes it even so much worse though is that pastors like this article use it like pervs luring kids with candy! I get so angry at pedophiles GRRRRRRR!

  13. @ brian:

    Its no shame for it to get to you, thats like having a heart like Gods i think. The shame is for hearts that are cold and hard and so unaffected by child abuse they are willing to try and cover it up so their reputations dont get hurt.

  14. sandy c wrote:

    Its like they use words like ‘grace’ to sucker people in!

    “Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves … Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ …” ( Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

    Preaching grace, grace, grace does not mean that Grace is present in your ministry.

  15. The reasons i am leaning to the guilt suspicion in this case is that 5 accusations were substantiated enough to become charges that made it all the way to a judge, children dont usually lie about this sort of thing and finally (and most convincing to me) is that Jesus said that people dont come to the light when their deeds are evil but those that do righteousness come to the light. Coming to the light in my opinion in this case would have been immedietly contacting police, helping them investigate- knowing you had nothing to hide. If they had done that and were convicted anyway, they might have had some basis to say persecuted unjustly like Jesus and expected some would believe them, but instead their very actions point to hiding behind lies.

  16. friendship and *obviously superior* doctrine trump the long term health, faith and safety of children. I frankly just don’t get it. It must be a superior theology thing…

    PURITY OF IDEOLOGY, COMRADES.

  17. Max wrote:

    Preaching grace, grace, grace does not mean that Grace is present in your ministry.

    North Korea preaches about Democratic, Democratic, Democratic.

    “The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.”

    Just make it a church and global-replace “Democratic” with “Grace”. Or “Gospel”.

  18. Darlene wrote:

    By the way, that ‘history’ from First Baptist Church of Clinton, La is creepy. Their so-called reformation consisted of disciplining people who didn’t subscribe to the doctrines of grace.

    Imitating their REAL LORD and Savior, Calvin of Geneva.

  19. Well, it’s obvious to me that the trouble with all of you is that you’re looking for the perfect church.

    What I would say is, if you ever find the perfect church, don’t join it – you’ll spoil it.

    Yours Sincerely,

    Arnold Smartarse

  20. Well, I read the quote from Pastor Tom Chantry at the bottom of the post, and it’s in really archaic academic english. Didn’t Jesus say that we should think twice before we question someone with old wisdom?

    I think you’re wrong to doubt him, and I’m sure you’d all be better if you stopped doing things about stuff and just focused on Jesus.

    God Bless,

    Arnold Dummarse

  21. #YouKnowYoureGettingOldWhen…

    … you need to get a splinter out, but can’t see it without your reading glasses.

  22. You know how sometimes you dig out a splinter, but half an hour later the site is still just sore enough that you wonder whether the splinter (or part of it) might still be there?

    People don’t realise how tough it is being me sometimes.

    #FirstWorldProblems
    #ShutTheFullCup

  23. @ sandy c:

    “…a “Grace Covenant church” and it was exactly the opposite of Grace.”
    +++++++++++

    grace, in the sense of “you should be grateful I’m haven’t squashed you like with a bug with my God-thumb like you deserve.” –God

    lovely…lovely…

  24. Speaking of weird new reformers, John Piper tweeted this about the Texas church shooting:

    “It is astonishing, bittersweet, precious, and painful that Jesus is a perfect kind of Savior for Sutherland Springs.”

    Somehow, I just don’t think those particular words from Pastor John bring comfort to the population of Sutherland Springs.

  25. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    People don’t realise how tough it is being me sometimes.

    Perhaps if you removed the beam from your eye, you could see clearly to remove the splinter. Or something like that.

    All kidding aside, actually, I feel your anguish – my aging eyes (plus an additional medical complication) make even trimming my fingernails a bit of an adventure. I need longer arms and bigger fingers. Or something. Maybe reading glasses 🙂

    I hate splinters. I heat with wood, and I get splinters all the time.

  26. @ Max:

    John Piper is unhinged, and ought to stop making any kind of public statements. Has he no friends or loved ones that can get him to stop?

  27. roebuck wrote:

    Has he no friends or loved ones that can get him to stop?

    This point needs to be repeated often!

    A common theme in the teaching and demands of celebrated church gurus and motivational speakers (as well as actual shepherds) is the need for accountability, and for people who love [generic] you enough to speak into your life, as the saying goes. Accountability, and having people willing to speak into your life, are subtly different, too; one is structured, the other is organic and informal, but no less effective and probably more important.

    The trouble is…

    A common theme among the followers of celebrity motivational speakers in church circles is that they refuse to correct, admonish or speak robustly into the lives of said speakers. They generally believe this to be loyal, loving and honouring to them. It’s none of those things.

    The knock-on effect is…

    The only people who are willing to address issues in celebrity behaviour often end up being people well beyond their immediate church orbits; including, but not by any means limited to, bloggers. Who are quickly declared “haters” by the celebrity followers, who close ranks around them for a complex variety of motivations, which leads to polarisation, the practical upshot of which is that the errant celebrity becomes isolated from meaningful criticism by an “event horizon” of yes-men.

  28. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    an “event horizon” of yes-men.

    The more I think about it, the more that looks like a really clever collective noun.

    Hurrah for me!

  29. @ Juulie Downs:

    Well, I generally use gloves when I’m working with wood, and especially rough-sawn wood. But they’re not always practical, especially when you need fine control.

    On a tangent, my daughter occasionally encourages me to play Rachmaninov whilst wearing oven gloves. The results can best be described as “funny without being vulgar”.

  30. Max wrote:

    Speaking of weird new reformers, John Piper tweeted this about the Texas church shooting:
    “It is astonishing, bittersweet, precious, and painful that Jesus is a perfect kind of Savior for Sutherland Springs.”
    Somehow, I just don’t think those particular words from Pastor John bring comfort to the population of Sutherland Springs.

    Max,
    My wife and I were discussing this just last night and wondering when the Pied Piper would say something that was off-kilter. These are hardly the words of encouragement! In fact, I’m not even certain they make any sense at all.

  31. sandy c wrote:

    hearts that are cold and hard and so unaffected by child abuse they are willing to try and cover it up so their reputations dont get hurt.

    “…and for justification ye make long prayers…”
    — Some Rabbi from Nazareth

  32. Max wrote:

    Speaking of weird new reformers, John Piper tweeted this about the Texas church shooting:

    “It is astonishing, bittersweet, precious, and painful that Jesus is a perfect kind of Savior for Sutherland Springs.”

    I think he’s off his form… Actually waited a couple days before shooting off his Twitter finger instead of a couple minutes.

    Still reads like Merlin Ambrosius was practicing the Curse of Babel on him before that banquet at N.I.C.E.

  33. Root 66 wrote:

    I’m not even certain they make any sense at all.

    John Piper has made a good living uttering words that don’t make much sense; his words regarding the Texas tragedy are certainly not pastoral. He’s in a world of his own … along with a multitude of New Calvinists who have been ensnared by the Pied Piper’s trance.

  34. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The only people who are willing to address issues in celebrity behaviour often end up being people well beyond their immediate church orbits; including, but not by any means limited to, bloggers. Who are quickly declared “haters” by the celebrity followers,

    I think people near to Piper (and so on) aren’t willing to address things because they would receive the same response, except it would actually affect their lives in a way someone calling me, random person on the internet, a ‘hater’ does not.

    They aren’t willing to chance it. *This is where I could get off on a tangent about ‘ways to avoid groupthink’ one of which is allowing dissenting opinions…*

  35. Max wrote:

    Somehow, I just don’t think those particular words from Pastor John bring comfort to the population of Sutherland Springs.

    Bringing comfort to others is not on my spiritual radar. Everything must glorify god by enjoying him forever. Maybe god ordained the madman before the foundations of the world in order to teach Pastor John how to be a better hedonist.

  36. roebuck wrote:

    Has he no friends or loved ones that can get him to stop?

    Noel tried over 7 years ago. I explained that to stop would be to waste several species of pride in my soul. So I took a leave and came back better than ever!

  37. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Still reads like Merlin Ambrosius was practicing the Curse of Babel on him before that banquet at N.I.C.E.

    Tidies and fugleman–I sheel foor that we all–er–most steeply rebut the defensible, though, I trust, lavatory, Aspasia which gleams to have selected our redeemed inspector this deceiving.  It would–ah–be shark, very shark, from anyone’s debenture . . . .

  38. Max wrote:

    Speaking of weird new reformers, John Piper tweeted this about the Texas church shooting:
    “It is astonishing, bittersweet, precious, and painful that Jesus is a perfect kind of Savior for Sutherland Springs.”
    Somehow, I just don’t think those particular words from Pastor John bring comfort to the population of Sutherland Springs.

    Oh my, what is he expressing? What a bizarre response to a horrible tragedy.

  39. @ God:
    Thank you for not squashing me like a bug with your god-thumb like i deserve! Or pulling me out of your god-thumb like a detestable splinter! but of course, you MIGHT still send me off to ECT when i die, because Evanescent Grace, like JC taught. At least i can enjoy your common grace a few more years before that, if i’m lucky.

  40. Pastor John wrote:

    Tidies and fugleman–I sheel foor that we all–er–most steeply rebut the defensible, though, I trust, lavatory, Aspasia which gleams to have selected our redeemed inspector this deceiving. It would–ah–be shark, very shark, from anyone’s debenture….

    Everybody be honest:
    Would you really be surprised if you read the above in Piper’s Twitter account?

  41. roebuck wrote:

    @ Max:
    John Piper is unhinged, and ought to stop making any kind of public statements. Has he no friends or loved ones that can get him to stop?

    The rules of CELEBRITY are in effect.
    One of the biggies being that Nobody Tells the CELEBRITY anything other than What the CELEBRITY Wants to Hear. (Usually some variant of “O Come Let Us Adore Thee…”)

  42. Mae wrote:

    Oh my, what is he expressing? What a bizarre response

    I know i seem heartless. But understand— my Dad was distant and cold, whilst at the same time writing poetry and traveling far and wide telling of god’s love. After my Mom died, he quickly remarried, and i don’t think they ever came to visit. Then when he died I found this crazy poem where he did a song of songs thing about my stepmom. But only someone like me would publish it for the whole plamn danet to read. I’m probably still trying to get Dad’s attention from wherever he went by tweetering bizzare poetic-sounding drivel.

  43. @ Mae:
    Maybe I’m being mean, but I’m wondering if Piper is losing it mentally. Everyone steps in it from time to time, but either he is in the early stages of some form of dementia, or he has no concept of what is even remotely proper to convey in situations such as these, or some combination of both.

    Sure, Jesus is the perfect Savior; I would contend that He is the only Savior. At the same time, in the aftermath of a situation such as this, it would seem more fitting to provide comfort and empathy rather than respond with theological platitudes that, even while correct, don’t remotely do justice to the suffering of the wounded over their losses.

  44. Pastor John wrote:

    Noel tried over 7 years ago. I explained that to stop would be to waste several species of pride in my soul. So I took a leave and came back better than ever!

    Brilliant! We haven’t had one of those for ages!

  45. Amir Larijani wrote:

    it would seem more fitting to provide comfort and empathy rather than respond with theological platitudes

    Yes, as the old adage goes “Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.”

  46. Max wrote:

    @ Pastor John:
    Pastor John, did you know that God came from Teman (Habukkuk 3:3)? I believe that is somewhere in Scotland.

    Likely up in the Ochils. But just as He’s not really an Edomite, He’s no true Scotsman neither. His accent betrays Him.

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Would you really be surprised if you read the above in Piper’s Twitter account?

    No. Maybe someone could make an account just to reply to his tweets with quotes ftom N.I.C.E.

  48. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    one of those

    One of what? Species of pride?
    Notice that while an ordinary person might “struggle” with pride, Piper struggled with “several species of pride in my soul”. Of course, the best treatment would have been to simply make the sabbatical permanent.

  49. Pastor John wrote:

    Piper struggled with “several species of pride in my soul”.

    ROFL. hH is better than all of us. He knows his species and I bet he mortifies them regularly.

  50. Pastor John wrote:

    So I took a leave and came back better than ever!

    Better than ever and better than than all of us! So, did the deaths from the bridge collapse , done for your benefit and repentance, make you even more prideful? God doesn’t have to do that much for me. I just need slip on a banana peel o recognize my pride. Deaths are not needed.

  51. elastigirl wrote:

    @ sandy c:
    “…a “Grace Covenant church” and it was exactly the opposite of Grace.”
    +++++++++++
    grace, in the sense of “you should be grateful I’m haven’t squashed you like with a bug with my God-thumb like you deserve.” –God
    lovely…lovely…

    Yes! You nailed it!

  52. elastigirl wrote:

    @ sandy c:
    “…a “Grace Covenant church” and it was exactly the opposite of Grace.”
    +++++++++++
    grace, in the sense of “you should be grateful I’m haven’t squashed you like with a bug with my God-thumb like you deserve.” –God
    lovely…lovely…

    Meant to add, the quote that sums up the view of god that lingers from the church we left is Nick Fury in one of the Avengers movies. “Ant, meet Boot.”

  53. roebuck wrote:

    @ Max:
    John Piper is unhinged, and ought to stop making any kind of public statements. Has he no friends or loved ones that can get him to stop?

    Unfortunately, his friends and loved ones subscribe mindlessly to his expressed beliefs…

  54. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Speaking of weird new reformers, John Piper tweeted this about the Texas church shooting:
    “It is astonishing, bittersweet, precious, and painful that Jesus is a perfect kind of Savior for Sutherland Springs.”
    I think he’s off his form… Actually waited a couple days before shooting off his Twitter finger instead of a couple minutes.
    Still reads like Merlin Ambrosius was practicing the Curse of Babel on him before that banquet at N.I.C.E.

    And now I hear that Twitter is going to allow him to utter twice as much hogwash in each tweet.

  55. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Oh freddled gruntbuggly!
    Thy micturitions are to me
    As plurgled gabbleblochits on a lurgid bee!
    Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes
    And hooptiously drangle me with cringled brindlewurdles

    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
    See if I don’t!

    As “Reverend Jon” might put it – only Douglas Adams (whose “Vogon poetry” is given above) did it better!

  56. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Please note: the previous comment was NOT written by a chatbot. But since the chatbots seem to be out in force today, I thought I’d throw in a quote from The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy.

  57. refugee wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Max wrote:
    Speaking of weird new reformers, John Piper tweeted this about the Texas church shooting:
    “It is astonishing, bittersweet, precious, and painful that Jesus is a perfect kind of Savior for Sutherland Springs.”
    I think he’s off his form… Actually waited a couple days before shooting off his Twitter finger instead of a couple minutes.
    Still reads like Merlin Ambrosius was practicing the Curse of Babel on him before that banquet at N.I.C.E.
    And now I hear that Twitter is going to allow him to utter twice as much hogwash in each tweet.

    One of the things I use to truly struggle with was just how concerned people in my old faith group seem to feel rather giddy over tragedies if such a tragedy had an apologetic value. IE would help the pastor make a point in a sermon, win an argument at the book table or in a meeting, shut someone up in front of everyone in a meeting proving how superior your theology is, A correct way to shut down decent and get revenge and other important spiritual actions for the Kingdom of the Prince of Peace. I mean the details on how people died, she said “Yes”, glorifying martyrdom and how we will be during the great tribulation because most of us were false converts and the true trial would come when God was personally involved in killing so many by His own Divine Hand. How most of us, including those God killed to prove His Majesty and divine Power. The detail in how God would make so many suffer such agony for so long. It just did not stop, on and on concerning wrath, our wretchedness, His Divine Holy Rage. His deep desire to make sure those who mocked Him and His church would pay and pay big time.
    “Gene pool or at least that is often how it is pointed out to me. This is how it seems Piper views it, if any “Deity” gets something out of what happened in Texas, Los Vegas, or any tragedy its not a deity and we dont need to worship it.I actually do not understand why any being with such power and creative capabilities even needs praise or worship from His creation? But that is another post.

  58. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    A common theme among the followers of celebrity motivational speakers in church circles is that they refuse to correct, admonish or speak robustly into the lives of said speakers. They generally believe this to be loyal, loving and honouring to them. It’s none of those things.

    The knock-on effect is…

    The only people who are willing to address issues in celebrity behaviour often end up being people well beyond their immediate church orbits; including, but not by any means limited to, bloggers. Who are quickly declared

    If ye werent such a jackarse i would say ‘ye has a way with words an truth to be heeded indeed’ well said sir!

  59. Max wrote:

    his words regarding the Texas tragedy are certainly not pastoral. He’s in a world of his own … along with a multitude of New Calvinists who have been ensnared by the Pied Piper’s trance.

    The bible says our battle is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers and somewhere it talks about people that are drunk but not with wine. We should pray for him and his followers ernestly i believe, now that i read your post i think thats what is wrong- a spirit of drunkeness in something very other than wine or the Holy Spirit

  60. Dee- so was there a hearing today in this Chantry case? West coast time…its still the 8th of Nov for me

  61. @ refugee:

    such misery. does your former church still exist? i imagine the language describing the misery was all flowery and smiley. sounds so psychologically confusing, enough to tie your mind and heart up in knots. especially when the sheer concept of God is involved (people can be persuaded of quite a bit just by invoking “God”).

  62. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    “The only people who are willing to address issues in celebrity behaviour often end up being people well beyond their immediate church orbits”
    +++++++++++++

    i find that even in garden variety churches, the environment – the air – is so heady. most people are either in a fog or have too much of a buzz (like after after an alcoholic beverage or two) to perceive the things that are ‘off’ if not approaching nonsense, or even destructive.

    i find this to be the case in even the best of churches (sincere, honest, having integrity). i marvel at it all, really. how can this be?

  63. @ elastigirl:

    i mean, how ironic and weird that the further i get from church orbits the more clarity i have about everything, especially about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. every day i feel like i’m in the Sierras on a crystal clear day, breathing in the clean, cool light-weight air. (and the only reason i notice this is because of having breathed heavy, murky air so to speak — what a contrast)

    how is it that even the best form of God’s namesake institution on earth can’t help but muddy and complicate and confuse things? it’s very disappointing and troubling.

  64. @ Root 66:

    “These are hardly the words of encouragement! In fact, I’m not even certain they make any sense at all.”
    ++++++++++++++

    seems to me he sees himself as a prophet of sorts, believing that whatever babbles and dribbles he generates are like Everclear inspired. Like automatic talking. Like, divine free association:

    “a beach ball, a dog, a frog… a log, a poodle, a noodle, a doodle… thus saith the Lord”.–John Piper

  65. @ Pastor John:

    “Noel tried over 7 years ago. I explained that to stop would be to waste several species of pride in my soul.”
    ++++++++++++

    do they have names, like Bob, Percy, and Malcom? Maybe one of them is named Betty(!).

  66. @ Pastor John:

    “I know i seem heartless. But understand— my Dad was distant and cold, whilst at the same time writing poetry and traveling far and wide telling of god’s love.”
    +++++++++++++++

    you said whilst.

    americans don’t say whilst.

    you’re blowing your cover….

    or is it the entity Malcom talking?

  67. elastigirl wrote:

    you said whilst.
    americans don’t say whilst.
    you’re blowing your cover….

    Just to clear up any possible misconstrualceptions * here, I have NOT sprouted another alter-ego.

    * This isn’t a word, but it should be.

  68. Dee Parsons wrote:

    better than all of us. He knows his species and I bet he mortifies them regularly.

    Better than I deserve! I mortify the species in my soul by regularly putting them in the spotlight of stage and scren. For reasons unknown, they still grow and grow. Maybe God is trying to teach Lutherans a lesson, like with the steeple.

  69. Dee Parsons wrote:

    Better than ever and better than than all of us!

    All the better to enjoy god by enjoying him forever– to do less would waste the species in my soul.

  70. elastigirl wrote:

    you said whilst.
    americans don’t say whilst.

    GMFA (AMERICA)
    It only shows I’ve hung about the Interwebs with Nick, God, Roger, Arnold, and Arnold for so long I’ve picked up British expressions.
    ION I do hope we get news about pastor Tom so we get back on topic and off my back.

  71. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I have NOT sprouted another alter-ego.

    But I have. That you thot I was a bot just shows just how closely the real Pastor John resembles one at times.

  72. Pastor John wrote:

    Better than I deserve! I mortify the species in my soul by regularly putting them in the spotlight of stage and scren.

    Not tearing your face into scar tissue and gargling lye like St Rose of Lima?
    Now THAT’S MORTIFICATION!

  73. elastigirl wrote:

    seems to me he sees himself as a prophet of sorts, believing that whatever babbles and dribbles he generates are like Everclear inspired. Like automatic talking. Like, divine free association:

    Tidies and fugleman–I sheel foor that we all–er–most steeply rebut the defensible, though, I trust, lavatory, Aspasia which gleams to have selected our redeemed inspector this deceiving. It would–ah–be shark, very shark, from anyone’s debenture….

  74. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Oh freddled gruntbuggly!
    Thy micturitions are to me
    As plurgled gabbleblochits on a lurgid bee!
    Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes
    And hooptiously drangle me with cringled brindlewurdles

    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
    See if I don’t!

    As “Reverend Jon” might put it – only Douglas Adams (whose “Vogon poetry” is given above) did it better!

    And wasn’t there some angsty teenage girl in England whose poetry was worse than anything Vogon?

  75. @ Pastor John:

    “do they have names?”

    No– they’re too humble for that.
    +++++++++++++++++++

    i think you should give them names.

    or can i name them? Wayne, Bruce, and Charles Joseph, perhaps?

  76. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    “Tidies and fugleman–I sheel foor that we all–er–most steeply rebut the defensible, though, I trust, lavatory, Aspasia which gleams to have selected our redeemed inspector this deceiving. It would–ah–be shark, very shark, from anyone’s debenture….”
    +++++++++++++++++

    And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
    Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
    O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’
    He chortled in his joy.

  77. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And wasn’t there some angsty teenage girl in England whose poetry was worse than anything Vogon?

    Both the Azgoths of Kria, and Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings of Greenbridge, Essex, were worse than the Vogons when it came to poetry. Though the latter’s age is uncertain.

  78. elastigirl wrote:

    And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
    Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
    O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’
    He chortled in his joy.

    Beg to differ with you on that.
    Lewis Carroll wrote a lot of nonsense rhymes, but they were consistent LOGICAL nonsense. In “Jabberwocky”, you can tell whether the nonsense words are nouns, adjectives, verbs, or adverbs and even give a good guess as to their meaning.

    In your above excerpt, “beamish” is obviously an adjective denoting a desirable property, like “heroic”. Similar with “frabjous day”, something similar to “O happy day!” And “Calooh Callay” are emotional interjections denoting joy or happiness. Nonsense, but LOGICAL Nonsense.

  79. Pastor John wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    you said whilst.
    americans don’t say whilst.
    GMFA (AMERICA)
    It only shows I’ve hung about the Interwebs with Nick, God, Roger, Arnold, and Arnold for so long I’ve picked up British expressions.
    ION I do hope we get news about pastor Tom so we get back on topic and off my back.

    Not to mention, such words as “whilst” and “amongst” and “amidst” sound more flowery, somehow.

  80. elastigirl wrote:

    @ refugee:
    such misery. does your former church still exist? i imagine the language describing the misery was all flowery and smiley. sounds so psychologically confusing, enough to tie your mind and heart up in knots. especially when the sheer concept of God is involved (people can be persuaded of quite a bit just by invoking “God”).

    Sad to say, it still exists. It seems larger than it actually is because the leading families there (and some of the non-leading families as well) are quiverfull, and some marriages have taken place amongst the leading families, and the young folks are breeding like rabbits (sorry to sound disrespectful) and still firmly under each respective patriarch’s thumb (that is, the father in each case, not the married son or son-in-law). And of course, the young families have no choice but to attend the parents’ church. So if you allow for the generational thing, the church is mainly composed of just a few families.

  81. @ elastigirl:
    p.s. You’re right. I certainly had the wool pulled over my eyes for years. Think of this (their message): We are all rightfully condemned by a holy God who cannot even look on sin because He is so holy, and so his condemnation is just and righteous and glorious and all that. But because of his great love, he sent his own beloved, only begotten Son to die so that a small fragment of Elect (chosen from the Beginning!) might be saved from their just, holy, and glorious condemnation to eternal suffering.

  82. elastigirl wrote:

    or can i name them? Wayne, Bruce, and Charles Joseph, perhaps?

    Most indubitably! Wayne Bruce can be the dark, brooding species of pride dwelling in a cave deep beneath the mansion of my soul and coming out by night to battle the powers of evil. And Joseph Charles, of course, is the very most humble of all my prides.

  83. refugee wrote:

    Not to mention, such words as “whilst” and “amongst” and “amidst” sound more flowery, somehow.

    To sound my most floweriest, I suppose if I return I’ll do nothing but plagiarize the real Pastor John.

  84. JYJames wrote:

    Regarding Baptist churches as a denomination and church shootings, is there a connection?

    As I think back on church shootings in the U.S., I recall them having occurred in the following types of Christian churches: Southern Baptist, Church of Christ, African Methodist Episcopal Church, Reformation Lutheran Church, and others. There doesn’t appear to be a particular denomination in the cross-hairs.

    We live in a desperately fallen creation … Satan roams the earth seeking whom he may devour. God’s people have always been the target of Satan and the demonic. I think we too easily write these tragedies off by calling the shooters deranged, mentally ill, and off their meds. There may not be a devil behind ‘every’ bush, but there’s a bunch of them out there motivating the flesh to do evil. The early Church had a better awareness of the demonic than the 21st century church does. The organized church is not prepared in a lot of ways to handle these situations.

  85. @ Pastor John:

    reading forward, as in grudem, ware. (handy caricatures, as they’ve become & all)

    (but yes, gotham city & stuff is a favorite of mine)

  86. @ Pastor John:

    Wayne Grudem, Bruce Ware, and Charles Joseph
    +++++++++++++++++

    they’re such good names for pet entities in one’s psyche, or pet pollywogs in one’s punch bowl.

  87. “Chantry’s defense attorney attempted to prevent the prosecutor from learning what was found in the *red binder.*”

    Ah, but there are other books yet to be opened:

    “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened … and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books; that is, everything done while on earth.” (Revelation 20:12 AMP)

  88. @ Max:
    Thanks, Max, for the info and wisdom. I see your viewpoint, that we will not see in the secular media, of course – yours is a Person of Faith perspective.

  89. JYJames wrote:

    I see your viewpoint, that we will not see in the secular media

    If you ever see me being interviewed by national media for my Christian perspective, you will know that things have turned for the better … or worse. I have a feeling that life may get so desperate in America that even the media will turn to the Church (the real one) for answers.

  90. The case of the red binder which was lost, then found.

    Gives whole new meaning to the verse
    “I once was lost
    But now am found…”

    Now to see if the next line also applies:
    “Was blind but now I see…”

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