RC Sproul Jr. Arrested and Charged with DUI and Neglect of Dependent: Does He Have a Drinking Problem?

screen-shot-2016-12-20-at-8-52-21-pm

Spinderella Sproul reports

The State of Indiana has charged RC Sproul Jr with four criminal counts:

Count 1:

35-46-1-4(a)(1)/F6: Neglect of a Dependent def. places dependent in situation that endangers the dep

Count 2:

9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18

Count 3: 

9-30-5-2(b)/MA: Operating A Vehicle While Intoxicated; Endangering A Person

Count 4:

9-30-5-1(b)/MA: Oper Veh w/ Alcohol Concentration Equivalent to .15 or More


From the records it appears that RC Sproul Jr may have remained in jail for up to a week after his arrest awaiting a bail hearing (although this isn't entirely clear from the court record). On December 7 RC Sproul Jr posted a $5,000 bond. His next court hearing is February 2, 2017. 

Does RC Sproul Jr have a drinking problem?

Spinderella Sproul had this to say about this situation.

On November 29, 2016, RC Sproul Jr was arrested in Indiana for drunk driving with one of his minor children in the car. His blood-alcohol level was .15, nearly twice the legal limit. 

Here's how the University of Oklahoma describes a person impaired by .15 blood-alcohol level:

0.13 — 0.15 BAC: Gross motor impairment and lack of physical control. Blurred vision and major loss of balance. Euphoria is reduced and dysphoria* is beginning to appear. Judgment and perception are severely impaired.
( * —Dysphoria: An emotional state of anxiety, depression, or unease.)

In The Know Zone describes it this way:

6. BAC = .12-.15 = Vomiting usually occurs, unless this level is reached slowly or a person has developed a tolerance to alcohol. Drinkers are drowsy. Drinkers display emotional instability, loss of critical judgment, impairment of perception, memory, and comprehension. Lack of sensor-motor coordination and impaired balance are typical. Decreased sensory responses and increased reaction times develop. The vision is significantly impaired, including limited ability to see detail, peripheral vision, and slower glare recovery. 

7. BAC = .15 = This blood-alcohol level means the equivalent of 1/2 pint of whiskey is circulating in the blood stream. 

This post goes onto claim that Sproul Jr has been observed to be a heavy drinker for a long time and has brushed off expressed concerns.

Many members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, the church that he started in Virginia, and then subsequently resigned from after his defrocking in 2006, often witnessed RC Sproul Jr inebriated, including at various church celebrations (i.e. keggers). It was commonplace at those church parties that minor children were served alcoholic beverages, including drinks spiked with Everclear (190 proof grain alcohol). RC Sproul Jr fostered a culture of heavy drinking at St. Peter Presbyterian Church.

…Drunkenness was one of a number of formal charges that were brought against RC Sproul Jr in late 2005 to his denomination, the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly.

Comments

RC Sproul Jr. Arrested and Charged with DUI and Neglect of Dependent: Does He Have a Drinking Problem? — 139 Comments

  1. Well, let’ s keep him in our prayers that he seeks help. He is a single dad and his children need a dad thats fit to parent.

  2. 7. BAC = .15 = This blood-alcohol level means the equivalent of 1/2 pint of whiskey is circulating in the blood stream.

    Assuming whiskey to be 100 proof, that is half a cup (120 ml) of ethanol — pure grain alcohol.

    And from the description, .15+ is also commonly called “falling down drunk”.
    And he was caught driving with kids in the car?

    Minor children given Everclear-spiked stuff at church keggers.
    This is frat boy cr#p. (ed.)

    Does RC Sproul Jr have a drinking problem?

    NO. SKUBALON.
    .15+ is more than “a problem”. That’s approaching “alcohol-based life form”.

    “They drink because they’re alkies. To an alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink must be protected at all costs.”
    — Steven King, writing about his own alcoholism in On Writing

  3. Jerome wrote:

    He has a new wife. She’s from Indiana, that’s why he was there.

    So this MoG has one foot in Perry Noble Country and the other in TT Land?

    Maybe Perry could give him advice on how to hit the Gospelly Comeback Trail.

  4. Chuck wrote:

    Well, let’ s keep him in our prayers that he seeks help. He is a single dad and his children need a dad thats fit to parent.

    Or the children need to be taken away from him and put in the care of healthy adults.

    Children cannot wait for parents to be sober and clean.

  5. @ Jerome:
    R. C. Sproul Jr./Spouse
    Denise Elizabeth Sproul
    m. ?–2011
    Born: September 9, 1965 (age 51), York, PA
    Spouse: R. C. Sproul Jr. (m. ?–2011)

  6. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Perry Noble Country

    Perry Noble Retweeted
    Brian Houston ‏@BrianCHouston 20h20 hours ago
    Leaders goal: if you can’t lead yourself you can’t lead others. Leadership is proven in personal, family, and ministry example.

  7. According to Brent Detwiler, Sproul Jr. remarried a couple weeks before his arrest. I don’t think she was anticipating something like this…

    If the reports from his old church are true, I’d say the probability of him being an alcoholic is high. That, combined with the allegations of serving alcohol to minors (illegal!) means he probably shouldn’t have held his position in his father’s ministry organization to begin with.

    Ligonier’s statement on the matter doesn’t even mention the arrest, the only reason given is a vague “stepping away…. for personal reasons.” Good night! Now, I don’t have much good to say about Perry Noble and Newspring but at least they MENTIONED that the reason for Perry’s termination was his alcoholism. Seems Ligonier wants to keep the entire “our founder’s son got arrested for DWI” thing under the rug.

    Too late for that.

  8. AnonInNC wrote:

    That, combined with the allegations of serving alcohol to minors (illegal!) means he probably shouldn’t have held his position in his father’s ministry organization to begin with.

    But he’s Highborn, Heir to the Pulpit of House Sproul by Divine Right.

    Stuff Fundys Like had a posting once “How to become a rich Megachurch Megapastor”:
    “Be born the son of a rich Megachurch Megapastor with your name ending in ‘Junior’.”

  9. I so feel for his kid, no matter what age, who was probably scared spitless and relieved to see the the police cruiser that pulled dad over.

    I was that kid, several times, when my dad drove around with me in the car. It’s called feeling helpless.

    I hope the kid gets help.

  10. Linn wrote:

    I so feel for his kid, no matter what age, who was probably scared spitless and relieved to see the the police cruiser that pulled dad over.
    I was that kid, several times, when my dad drove around with me in the car. It’s called feeling helpless.
    I hope the kid gets help.

    Ala-Teen, the 12-step program.

    Al-Anon for the wife.

  11. Firstly let me say REC Sproul Jr is a lost brother in Christ, clouded by the toxic neo-Calvinism. Let us continue to pray for people like him, and even love them as best as we can.

    If you guys recall RC Sproul Jr got caught on Ashley Madison (at the same time when his first wife was battling cancer???). Now he is caught drunk driving with his OWN KID in the car.

    Love for God? None. God isn’t glorified here, but disgraced! Now we have a drunk driving Christian who visits Ashley Madison.

    Love for neighbor? None. The valuable lives of pedestrians, other drivers and even his OWN kid all ignored. God forbid he runs someone over while drunk, or get his OWN kid killed.

    Greatest Commandant fail right here. Never mind anything else.

    BTW they never did resolved if he cheated on his first wife while she was alive. If he didn’t plan to cheat, why was he on Ashley Madison? Even if he didn’t cheat, why was he interacting with other ladies who are looking to cheat? This is twisted in so many ways.

    Once again we are commanded to love and forgive people like him. Sin of course shouldn’t surprise us. What I personally cannot stand is these sinful neo-Calvinist that condemns and excommunicate everyone else. Jesus say look at your own messy lives first!

    Matthew 7:3-5

    3 Why do you see the splinter that’s in your brother’s or sister’s eye, but don’t notice the log in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother or sister, ‘Let me take the splinter out of your eye,’ when there’s a log in your eye? 5 You deceive yourself! First take the log out of your eye, and then you’ll see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother’s or sister’s eye.

  12. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    FIRST!

    Oh.

    UFCIC [Up for Coffee in California].

    Nick, you’re today’s winner in Scotland. That entitles you to a FREE t-shirt from Camp Backbone, which has yet to be held. But rest assured, our fearless leader is Nancy 2 in Kentucky.

    Velour, Vice-President of Online Retail,
    Marketing and Consumer Surveys at
    Pound Sand Ministries (TM), started right here on TWW.
    Proud Sponsor of Camp Backbone (TM)

  13. Pingback: Wednesday Link List | Thinking Out Loud UNITED STATES

  14. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And from the description, .15+ is also commonly called “falling down drunk”.
    And he was caught driving with kids in the car?

    It’s possible that if he is an alcoholic his tolerance is high enough that he is more functional at that level. I remember guys that would drink a case of beer a day. Half a pint of whiskey doesn’t sound too crazy. (obviously he shouldn’t have been driving though)

    But keglers at church parties, and punch spiked with ever clear???? Sounds like a frat!

  15. Lea wrote:

    keggers. Does auto correct really not know that word?

    Automatic spell-checking has its moments, but at least mine does realise how to spell “colour”.

    #ThankfulForSmallMercies

  16. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Breaking news: What The Conspiracy Theorists Don’t Want You To Know!

    BTW – Wartburgers with a couple of minutes to spare, and who are in need of a lift, are strongly encouraged to follow the link I provided.

    Like the flat-earthists, The Official Monster Raving Loony Party really exists. They are a prominent feature at every major election in the UK these days, in the media if not in the actual results (though they do have a tradition of “not coming last”). Unlike the flat-earthers, they promote good clean fun: they are, as their website repeatedly states, “loonies, not nutters”. IHTIH, as we say in Wartburg.

  17. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Like the flat-earthists, The Official Monster Raving Loony Party really exists. They are a prominent feature at every major election in the UK these days, in the media if not in the actual results (though they do have a tradition of “not coming last”). Unlike the flat-earthers, they promote good clean fun: they are, as their website repeatedly states, “loonies, not nutters”. IHTIH, as we say in Wartburg.

    I’d stick with the Adder Party if I were you. Just make sure they do things proper this time, and kill Baldrick before they start. 😉

  18. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Like the flat-earthists, The Official Monster Raving Loony Party really exists. They are a prominent feature at every major election in the UK these days, in the media if not in the actual results (though they do have a tradition of “not coming last”). Unlike the flat-earthers, they promote good clean fun: they are, as their website repeatedly states, “loonies, not nutters”. IHTIH, as we say in Wartburg.

    Still sorry that Screaming Lord Sutch (founder of the party) is not still with us. I’m a small-r republican but he was the kind of Lord I could get behind.

  19. All I can say is that, in the light of these revelations, I do not intend to listen to one more haughty down-your-nose better-than-thou remark from anybody about the fact that my tribe uses real wine for communion.

  20. @ okrapod:

    When I was a kid, I went to my cousins Episcopalian church and they used real wine. It was quite a shock. My church now uses the grape juice for communion but we did have wine at the Christmas party.

  21. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The Official Monster Raving Loony Party really exists.

    That is hilarious. Unfortunately over here we have some people who adopt looniness as a life style without ever realizing what they are doing, or at least I hope they are deceived and not actually in free fall off some cliff. Our loonies come in all stripes, liberal and conservative, religious and atheist and whatever. But one identifying factor is that they seem to congregate in colleges and universities, both in the student body and in the faculty and administration. I would despair for us all over this except for the fact that my despair default position has been worn out due to overuse, so I think you all have the best idea-turn it into comedy and move on.

  22. okrapod wrote:

    All I can say is that, in the light of these revelations, I do not intend to listen to one more haughty down-your-nose better-than-thou remark from anybody about the fact that my tribe uses real wine for communion.

    Ha ha. The last real wine communion I partook was surely watered down Mogan David or similar. Yuck. The one before that shared the cup of bad wine and I am a germaphobe. So, as former SBC, we can put it to rest that people are there for the wine? ;o)

  23. If none of you were able to read Sproul Jr’s online memoir, Ligoneir Tales, count your blessings. Some clever person on SSB found it on archive way back machine.

    I came across it when the Ligoneir financial scandal was unfolding way back in 07 or so– to the point, legal pundit, Glenn Reynolds, USA today and the Orlando Sentinel wrote of it as a sort of test case for bloggers.

    In the book, Jr, called “precious” by his mom, referred to the wealthy woman who bankrolled Ligoneir Ministries as a “white witch”.

  24. Lydia wrote:

    So, as former SBC, we can put it to rest that people are there for the wine?

    I think so. First a disclaimer: I do not like wine. I just do not like it. There are other ways to consume alcohol that I do like, and therefore try to avoid because liking alcohol in any form is dangerous. But anyhow, I cannot say if wine is good or bad because I do not like it any more than I like cooked broccoli. That having been said, the communion wine at our place is terribly sour. The best I can tell it looks red, but it is really sour. I have wondered if they are trying to duplicate the sour wine that Christ was offered on the cross, but I don’t know who to ask. Well, actually I am afraid to ask because it would reveal my wine ignorance if it turns out to be something that other folks think is some top of some line or something.

    Answer: who knows? But the rest of the story as I experience it is that if you don’t either dip the wafer in the wine or sip some wine, if you just put the wafer in your mouth and nothing more, it sticks to the roof of your mouth. Now this can be dealt with, but anybody watching you trying to deal with it might think that the problem was loose dentures or something, and who wants people to think that.

    Frankly, there are a lot of things good to say about the theology and practice of communion Episcopal style, but it does take some doing to actually get it done.

  25. okrapod wrote:

    Unfortunately over here we have some people who adopt looniness as a life style without ever realizing what they are doing

    We have them too, of course; in fact, that’s partly the point of the OMRLP. I think of them as being a little like the Ig Nobel Prizes, whose stated aim is not to lampoon frivolous science but “to make you laugh, then make you think”.

    My current favourite Loony Party Manicfesto Commitment is the proposal to fit vehicles with bungee ropes to save fuel on the return journey. The joke, of course, is that this violates the laws of thermodynamics…

  26. okrapod wrote:

    The best I can tell it looks red

    This line cracked me up.

    I’m with Lydia. If I thought church would serve me a glass of good wine I would be all for it, but it’s probably not tasty. Actually, and maybe this is terrible, but I really love the bread we get (real, fresh bread!) so I try to get as little juice as possible on it during communion. It’s possible this misses the point.

  27. Incidentally, returning to the topic in question, I can’t really comment on Wee RC Sproul’s use of alcohol as I don’t really know who he is.

  28. @ okrapod:
    The Baptists I knew used wafer bits that aren’t big enough to get stuck. You can barely pick one up off the plate. It reminds me of a one year old trying to pick up a cheerio.

    Trust me. Wine does not need to be sour. Too bad they don’t model the wedding at Cana! :o)

  29. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    …cooked broccoli
    Try dry-roasting it with a bit of salt.

    Nope. Keep it raw……….. Broccoli salad: broccoli, red onion, cheddar cheese, and bacon with dressing (mayo or salad dressing, sugar, and ………. Oh, yeah, a bit of red wine vinegar).

  30. 7. BAC = .15 = This blood-alcohol level means the equivalent of 1/2 pint of whiskey is circulating in the blood stream.

    Did a little more research on BACs:

    .10 is usually when the stomach irritation effect hits “Technicolor Yawn” levels if no tolerance has been previously built up.

    .14 is where the brain REALLY gets affected; formally called “stupefaction”, i.e. “put on the beer goggles” and/or “Alcoholic Logic kicks in”. ManaGAWD Junior was a little bit above this.

    .30 is where most people pass out, AKA “Under the Table”.

    Above .40 is where where things get TOXIC, i.e. actual alcohol poisoning sets in.

    Above .50 you are usually DEAD of alcohol poisoning. With the delay for BAC to build up, it is possible to drink enough hard liquor to reach fatal BAC before you pass out. As many frat boys have found out the hard way.

    And you can only drink one swallow of pure ethanol (i.e. Everclear) before your throat closes up completely from the irritation. Even if you’re used to it.

  31. Nancy2 wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    okrapod wrote:
    …cooked broccoli
    Try dry-roasting it with a bit of salt.

    Nope. Keep it raw……….. Broccoli salad: broccoli, red onion, cheddar cheese, and bacon with dressing (mayo or salad dressing, sugar, and ………. Oh, yeah, a bit of red wine vinegar).

    One of my favorite combinations for Bachelor Survival Soup is sliced carrots and broccoli. Which standalone also makes a great side dish.

  32. @ CHIPS:

    Just to set the record straight, he was a widower when the A-M thing became public last year. I think his wife died in 2011.

  33. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The Official Monster Raving Loony Party really exists. They are a prominent feature at every major election in the UK these days, in the media if not in the actual results (though they do have a tradition of “not coming last”).

    I have heard of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party. Their saving grace is they do NOT take themselves seriously.

    Imagine somebody as far out as the OMRLPs except DEAD SERIOUS, KNOWING Their Agenda is to be everybody’s Personal LORD and Savior, THE Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. (“Easy if you try…” if you’ve seen California’s thin grey ponytails in action. In the state capital for life. With REAL power.)

  34. Refugee wrote:

    @ CHIPS:

    Just to set the record straight, he was a widower when the A-M thing became public last year. I think his wife died in 2011.

    Still, it’s a scandal.
    Gets him mentioned in the same breath as Josh Duggar (who according to my newsfeed at work has just sired another Mini-Me).

  35. @ dee:
    Yes, that’s right. They posted pictures together on facebook over the past few months. But that started well after the A-M scandal.

  36. Lea wrote:

    It’s possible that if he is an alcoholic his tolerance is high enough that he is more functional at that level. I remember guys that would drink a case of beer a day.

    I’ve heard of them too; they’re called “Beer Drunks”.
    Had to put up with one downstairs from me at my former address.

  37. I know nothing about his new wife except for seeing a picture or two. But I do feel sorry for her. The honeymoon is truly over. And considering the neoCal crowd, she is stuck for life, and (as some have expressed) in the afterlife as well. (I forget who was quoted as saying a wife had to submit to her husband in heaven, but it was someone influential as I recall.)

  38. We need to give Junior a break! Living under the theological oppression of R.C. Sproul would drive anyone to drink!

  39. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    BTW, if anyone is curious or unaware, a kegler is a bowler. So maybe it should have been this song:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWKu1BbZhkQ
    Or the Veddy Veddy Pseudo-Brit zombies of that Kirk in Moscow ID were in on the party.

    It’s ironic that Sproul, Jr. and Wilson were both honored and welcome at our former church over the years (RC Jr. was especially welcome after the defrocking and subsequent switch to Wilson’s CREC). They were never there at the same time–I’m not saying that–but they shared likemindedness with the leaders of our former church, and were invited as speakers for conferences the church put on.

    If the conference was held in the warm months, there would usually be a whole-church get-together one of the days of the conference, with a picnic/barbeque/potluck (though the approved term was “shared meal” because of the “luck” in “potluck”). The men would sit around in a group with the Featured Speaker (or Favored One, I suppose you can call it; you could tell where people were in the hierarchy by how close they sat to the guest speaker in their lawn chairs), talking and laughing and drinking beer or perhaps some choice whiskey, and smoking their cigars, and talking of such manly topics as hunting and theology as they saw it.

  40. Max wrote:

    We need to give Junior a break! Living under the theological oppression of R.C. Sproul would drive anyone to drink!

    You want to hear something sad? I found RC Sr.’s teachings refreshing. I never heard him called aberrant until yesterday, here at TWW. But then, the people I used to hang out with also revere Piper, so I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.

  41. Nancy2 wrote:

    Broccoli salad

    Yeah, young daughter takes that to the family Christmas meal each year. I love it. I also like just plain raw broccoli dipped in ranch dressing to nibble on. There is just something about it when cooked, however, that to me is awful. Some combination of taste and texture and smell, I don’t know.

    I do think I will try that roasted with salt idea, though. That ought to preserve the texture.

  42. Lea wrote:

    refugee wrote:

    though the approved term was “shared meal” because of the “luck” in “potluck”).

    Seriously???

    At least they weren’t calling it “pot providence”, which has supposedly been a thing.

  43. Refugee wrote:

    I know nothing about his new wife except for seeing a picture or two. But I do feel sorry for her. The honeymoon is truly over. And considering the neoCal crowd, she is stuck for life, and (as some have expressed) in the afterlife as well. (I forget who was quoted as saying a wife had to submit to her husband in heaven, but it was someone influential as I recall.)

    That was covered by Julie Anne in her post on CBMW drinking the Mormon koolaid, regarding an article from an old journal issue.

  44. Okrapod, I hear you on the communion wine. My first PCA church initially used two buck chuck from Trader Joe’s, which was pretty good and well priced. Then they later switched to cases of that bulk Riunite crap. Harder to think about Jesus when you’re anticipating and then experiencing a bitter taste.

  45. refugee wrote:

    I found RC Sr.’s teachings refreshing. I never heard him called aberrant until yesterday

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.

    refugee wrote:

    the people I used to hang out with also revere Piper

    One of Piper’s sons rebelled, too. Piper had him excommunicated from the church!

    New Calvinism drives most folks crazy after a while. You either grow completely confused or bail out before you lose it.

  46. refugee wrote:

    talking and laughing and drinking beer or perhaps some choice whiskey, and smoking their cigars, and talking of … manly topics

    Sounds like a meeting of the elders at an SBC-YRR church plant near me. Yep, they are cut out of that mold.

  47. okrapod wrote:

    Our loonies come in all stripes…But one identifying factor is that they seem to congregate in colleges and universities, both in the student body and in the faculty and administration. I would despair for us all over this except for the fact that my despair default position has been worn out due to overuse…

    Don’t worry, we only have your children for four years or so, then they move well beyond us in pay scale, social strata and competence and become actual experts in their respective fields rather than the generalists that most of us in academia are (or experts in irrelevancies that some of the more distinguished members of our tribe are). We don’t do that much harm, except to the finances of graduates when we come after them wheedling for donations to support our eccentric lifestyles.

  48. @ Refugee:
    Did you ever read Jr’s old Highland blog? He used to pontificate about housewives spending time on the internet being seduced by Lothario’s while the husband was at work. He would rant about wives letting themselves go and such. He was Driscollesque without the big platform. I always felt so bad for his first wife.

    People went to that blog just to see if what people were saying on other blogs about him was true.

    Good thing he has a wealthy ministry daddy to fall back on. Except his sister and her husband and kids all lived in the Sproul compound and worked for daddy, too. They freaked back during the financial scandal and had their intern phone solicitation students calling donors every week.

  49. NJ wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    refugee wrote:
    though the approved term was “shared meal” because of the “luck” in “potluck”).
    Seriously???
    At least they weren’t calling it “pot providence”, which has supposedly been a thing.

    No supposedly about it. I have heard people, in all seriousness, say that phrase. However, “shared meal” was the official label at the old church, reinforced by the elders’ and deacons’ wives and official missives. Although in later years, they used one of those potluck websites to organize what people signed up to bring, so that there would be no meal that was all desserts or, alternatively, no desserts. I don’t remember for sure what the webaite was, but now find it deliciously ironic (okay, only mildly ironic) to contemplate that it was Perfect Potluck or some other website with “potluck” in the name.

    The people I knew who used the phrase “pot providence” came out of SGM churches, or maybe Mars Hill (or maybe they went from SGM to Mars Hill), according to my sometimes-faulty recollection.

  50. Lydia wrote:

    @ Refugee:
    Did you ever read Jr’s old Highland blog? He used to pontificate about housewives spending time on the internet being seduced by Lothario’s while the husband was at work. He would rant about wives letting themselves go and such. He was Driscollesque without the big platform. I always felt so bad for his first wife.
    People went to that blog just to see if what people were saying on other blogs about him was true.
    Good thing he has a wealthy ministry daddy to fall back on. Except his sister and her husband and kids all lived in the Sproul compound and worked for daddy, too. They freaked back during the financial scandal and had their intern phone solicitation students calling donors every week.

    Sadly, I have to say I did. I also read Wilson’s Credenda Agenda, though it was difficult to stomach. (So much hubris and self-congratulation.)

    Y’know, I have to bless one of those anonymous callers from Ligonier. They called around Christmastime one year, when finances were pretty tight. They were offering a leather-bound Reformation Study bible for any donation. I talked with the young lady on the phone for a few moments, and I think I mentioned how much I would love to give that bible to my spouse for Christmas but things were so tight… she convinced me that a donation of $1 would be enough to cover it.

    And my spouse got a leather-bound bible for Christmas that year, so well made that it has held up under steady use over years.

  51. @ refugee:
    Y’know, Lydia, part of the draw for many of us was the coolness factor. These guys were cool, y’know? Not uptight about drinking (beer, wine, whiskey) and smoking (cigars and pipes) and shooting. Their arrogance in thumbing their noses at both the establishment (living out Christian liberty, don’t ya know) and the “whining liberal bleeding hearts” (they had the *real* answer: Make people responsible once again! Abolish public schools! Get rid of welfare and social security! Let churches resume their care of the [deserving] poor and widows and orphans and force all those “lazy bums” to get off their backsides and work for a living… yeah, I know. I still shake my head in wonder that we stayed with this hateful crowd for so long, even agreed with some of what they said at the time, because the world was evil and they were seeking after righteousness)

    Speaking as one who is now much more liberal-minded than I used to be. And seeing their “Christian liberty” as “license” — at least for the big dogs in the pack.

  52. @ refugee:
    meant to say that their arrogance came off as refreshing, most of the time… they had rediscovered the truth that the established church, petrifying in the Traditions of Man, had lost over the centuries

    The arrogance was occasionally wince-worthy. I wish I had listened to my gut feelings way back then, instead of quelling my doubts as “vestiges” of my college-era feminism.

  53. dee wrote:

    @ Refugee:
    You’re right! I wonder if it was a last ditch effort to save his ministry.

    Huh. Hadn’t thought of that.

    I just remember thinking, when I saw the picture of them together on FB, of the anecdotal evidence that he spanked his first wife (along with all the other teaching I remembered hearing from him, like that a man should be a Prophet, Priest, and King in his own home–while a wife is not a prophetess, priestess or queen, but merely a helpmeet), and wondered if the second Mrs. Sproul Jr. knew what she might be getting herself into.

  54. refugee wrote:

    Although in later years, they used one of those potluck websites to organize what people signed up to bring

    I didn’t know those existed!!! One office I worked at used a sign up sheet. My church assigned a category of food by last name, which seemed to work well.

  55. Lydia wrote:

    Did you ever read Jr’s old Highland blog? He used to pontificate about housewives spending time on the internet being seduced by Lothario’s while the husband was at work. He would rant about wives letting themselves go and such. He was Driscollesque without the big platform. I always felt so bad for his first wife.

    He sounds majorly insecure

  56. @ okrapod:
    try steamed fresh broccoli spears with some medium cheese salsa (I discovered if I want to get my husband to eat veggies, I have to add a strongly-flavoured sauce …. none of that Hollandaise will do for him (darn!)

    after almost 50 years, I’ve managed to find what works with him …. trial and error and salsa

  57. NJ wrote:

    At least they weren’t calling it “pot providence”, which has supposedly been a thing.

    Back when I was working for an evangelical ministry, one of the teachers on staff would discourage us from talking about “luck,” because the word came from “Lucifer.” Because, obviously the first 3 letters are the same.

    I’ve discovered that most of the nuttiness that I absorbed from this fellow can be traced back to Bill Gothard, although I didn’t know that at the time. This guy didn’t use the “pot providence” term, thankfully. Although I’ve been to some potlucks that bordered on being a religious experience in themselves.

  58. HUG mentioned frat boys in one of the comment threads, perhaps even this one.

    Come to think of it, neoCal theology, at least the way RC Jr., Doug Wilson, and Doug Phillips taught it, sounds like the perfect solution for overgrown frat boys. Think of it: all the alcohol and tobacco one could wish (so long as the tobacco comes in the gentrified forms, not the lowly cigarette), all the sex a (married) man could want (because the wife is conditioned not to say no. No matter what. Because the bible says she may withhold her body for a season, for the purpose of prayer I think… but somehow it gets into a clobber verse for the never-say-no teaching, with its corollary that if your husband strays into porn or adultery, it’s your fault for not having been available enough).

    And no birth control, because that’s not “trusting God for your family size.” So when the wife gets pregnant, it’s all elbow nudges and winks for the men (and preening on the part of the virile one), while for the wife, it’s exhaustion, sickness, struggling to keep up with her god-given responsibilities, guilt for not having the energy to homeschool as diligently as usual, and little relief–unless there is a daughter or daughters old enough to take some of the responsibility on their own shoulders. As for “old enough”? I’ve seen various ages in families. Some of the girls were as young as six.

    All the alcohol, tobacco, and sex a man could want. What a selling point.

  59. wait, I take back the part about alcohol and Doug Phillips. I’m not completely sure about that, as he was a baptist of some kind or other, wasn’t he?

    But it definitely applies to RC Jr. and Doug Wilson.

  60. GSD wrote:

    pot providence

    Isn’t that a store located in the Denver International Airport?

    *Rimshot*

    I’ll be here all week, ladies and gentlemen.

  61. GSD wrote:

    because the word came from “Lucifer.”

    According to ye olde internete:

    c. 1500, “fortune good or bad, what happens to one by chance (conceived as being favorable or not); good luck, quality of having a tendency to receive desired or beneficial outcomes,” not found in Old English, probably from early Middle Dutch luc, shortening of gheluc “happiness, good fortune,” a word of unknown origin.

  62. Max wrote:

    One of Piper’s sons rebelled, too. Piper had him excommunicated from the church!

    The YRRs use the term “excommunication” in a funny way. It literally means “out of communication.” This means no contact, no community. But Piper continued to meet with his son during the period of excommunication. So he had communication with him while he was out of communication. Words have no meaning with these folks.

  63. refugee wrote:

    Make people responsible once again! Abolish public schools!

    Ya know, there was a time when attending a public school was considered a mark of responsibility. Knowing the public bus schedule was also virtuous. Our public institutions might have some problems these days, but abandoning them is not a good idea. And separatism never works very well for anybody.

  64. Burwell wrote:

    *Rimshot*
    I’ll be here all week, ladies and gentlemen.

    I’ll be sure to order the veal and remember to tip my waitress.

  65. Lea wrote:

    because the word came from “Lucifer.”

    Well yeah totally, because that’s how it’s pronounced: Luckifer.

  66. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Incidentally, returning to the topic in question, I can’t really comment on Wee RC Sproul’s use of alcohol as I don’t really know who he is.

    I know! Sometimes I feel like I’m reading a version of an old TV game show. With the has-been or never-was “celebrities”.

    I don’t even know who RC Sproul is. Sounds like a “Harry Potter” character. For me “RC” = “Remote Controlled”.

  67. refugee wrote:

    If the conference was held in the warm months, there would usually be a whole-church get-together one of the days of the conference, with a picnic/barbeque/potluck (though the approved term was “shared meal” because of the “luck” in “potluck”).

    Did they greet each other with “Heaven-O” instead of “Hello”?

  68. Lydia wrote:

    Did you ever read Jr’s old Highland blog? He used to pontificate about housewives spending time on the internet being seduced by Lothario’s while the husband was at work.

    Another peek into yet another MoG’s sexual fantasies…

  69. refugee wrote:

    (they had the *real* answer: Make people responsible once again! Abolish public schools! Get rid of welfare and social security! Let churches resume their care of the [deserving] poor and widows and orphans and force all those “lazy bums” to get off their backsides and work for a living… yeah, I know…)

    “A EQUALS A! OBJECTIVE TRUTH!”
    “A EQUALS A! WHO IS JOHN GALT!”
    “A EQUALS A!”
    “A EQUALS A!”
    “A EQUALS A!”

  70. refugee wrote:

    @ refugee:
    meant to say that their arrogance came off as refreshing, most of the time… they had rediscovered the truth that the established church, petrifying in the Traditions of Man, had lost over the centuries

    Didn’t Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, and Mo David all make the same claim?

  71. Ken F wrote:

    So he had communication with him while he was out of communication. Words have no meaning with these folks.

    Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.

  72. refugee wrote:

    …with a picnic/barbeque/potluck (though the approved term was “shared meal” because of the “luck” in “potluck”).

    My former church called them “pot blessings”. At which point if the greasy, fried, oversalted, wilted food typical of such events in the Deep South weren’t enough to make me queasy, that awful christianese would’ve been.

  73. Friend wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    Make people responsible once again! Abolish public schools!
    Ya know, there was a time when attending a public school was considered a mark of responsibility. Knowing the public bus schedule was also virtuous. Our public institutions might have some problems these days, but abandoning them is not a good idea. And separatism never works very well for anybody.

    Not to mention, abolishing the public schools would not force parents to take responsibility for educating their children themselves, or somehow magically make all parents competent to do so.

    These people live in a bubble.

  74. refugee wrote:

    The men would sit around in a group with the Featured Speaker (or Favored One, I suppose you can call it; you could tell where people were in the hierarchy by how close they sat to the guest speaker in their lawn chairs), talking and laughing and drinking beer or perhaps some choice whiskey, and smoking their cigars, and talking of such manly topics as hunting and theology as they saw it.

    Didn’t one of those guys brag about his Hemingwayesque trophy hunting in Africa?

  75. Muff Potter wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    The men would sit around in a group with the Featured Speaker (or Favored One, I suppose you can call it; you could tell where people were in the hierarchy by how close they sat to the guest speaker in their lawn chairs), talking and laughing and drinking beer or perhaps some choice whiskey, and smoking their cigars, and talking of such manly topics as hunting and theology as they saw it.
    Didn’t one of those guys brag about his Hemingwayesque trophy hunting in Africa?

    I wouldn’t know, as I was relegated to the henhouse, in a manner of speaking. The women pretty much either sat about, supervising the small children, or were busy with the food.

  76. Lydia wrote:

    Lydia on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 12:52 PM said:
    @ Refugee:
    Did you ever read Jr’s old Highland blog? He used to pontificate about housewives spending time on the internet being seduced by Lothario’s while the husband was at work. He would rant about wives letting themselves go and such. He was Driscollesque without the big platform. I always felt so bad for his first wife.
    People went to that blog just to see if what people were saying on other blogs about him was true.
    Good thing he has a wealthy ministry daddy to fall back on. Except his sister and her husband and kids all lived in the Sproul compound and worked for daddy, too. They freaked back during the financial scandal and had their intern phone solicitation students calling donors every week.

    God does have a sense of humor! 😛

    It is almost like Peter saying he will never ever ever ever ever (repeat 77 times) deny Jesus. And Jesus just look at Peter with a smile.

    The way I see it, God laughs at anyone that is super confident in their own faith and their resistance to sin. And God will humble the proud with hopes of restoring them.

  77. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    @ refugee:
    meant to say that their arrogance came off as refreshing, most of the time… they had rediscovered the truth that the established church, petrifying in the Traditions of Man, had lost over the centuries
    Didn’t Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, and Mo David all make the same claim?

    Sure thing! And many more, in all probability. There are an awful lot of cults out there, claiming to have a Truth that nobody else has…

  78. Muff Potter wrote:

    Didn’t one of those guys brag about his Hemingwayesque trophy hunting in Africa?

    You might be thinking of Paige Patterson there. He’s the one who has filled his house with articles of slaughtered wildlife. There used to be a page with photos from his house and from his African hunts (including link to a powerpoint file with more photos) on his page at the seminary website, IIRC. They have since removed it, I think.

    He still has some material on his personal website at http://paigepatterson.org/media-resources/presentations/

    Lovely man, leaving a trail of destruction behind on his way through God’s beautiful nature. If it moves, shoot it!

  79. Gus wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Didn’t one of those guys brag about his Hemingwayesque trophy hunting in Africa?

    You might be thinking of Paige Patterson there. He’s the one who has filled his house with articles of slaughtered wildlife. There used to be a page with photos from his house and from his African hunts (including link to a powerpoint file with more photos) on his page at the seminary website, IIRC. They have since removed it, I think.

    He still has some material on his personal website at http://paigepatterson.org/media-resources/presentations/

    Lovely man, leaving a trail of destruction behind on his way through God’s beautiful nature. If it moves, shoot it!

    He was also real good at “slaughtering” human beings who did not share his brand of FUNDAMENTALISM!

  80. Ken F wrote:

    The YRRs use the term “excommunication” in a funny way. It literally means “out of communication.”

    That sounds more like “shunning” by YRR’s in my area … which essentially means they won’t talk to you when they see you at WalMart. It’s a silly game played by young “lead pastors” in their 20s-30s fresh out of SBC seminary and their “elder” team, also in their 20s-30s. “Excommunication” is when they step it up a notch to officially exclude someone from participating in the sacraments and services of the church … as if they genuinely practice communion and baptism in a reverent way. For any folks listening in who may have been shunned and/or excommunicated from a New Calvinist church, congratulations!

  81. Law Prof wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    …with a picnic/barbeque/potluck (though the approved term was “shared meal” because of the “luck” in “potluck”).
    My former church called them “pot blessings”. At which point if the greasy, fried, oversalted, wilted food typical of such events in the Deep South weren’t enough to make me queasy, that awful christianese would’ve been.

    This reminded me that folks in my old church refused to say ‘deviled eggs’. They called them ‘angel eggs’ instead.

  82. Max wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    The YRRs use the term “excommunication” in a funny way. It literally means “out of communication.”
    That sounds more like “shunning” by YRR’s in my area … which essentially means they won’t talk to you when they see you at WalMart. It’s a silly game played by young “lead pastors” in their 20s-30s fresh out of SBC seminary and their “elder” team, also in their 20s-30s. “Excommunication” is when they step it up a notch to officially exclude someone from participating in the sacraments and services of the church … as if they genuinely practice communion and baptism in a reverent way. For any folks listening in who may have been shunned and/or excommunicated from a New Calvinist church, congratulations!

    At Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley the evil game is played by pastors/elders in their 40’s and 50’s, most graduates of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary.

    They did it to me. And before me a godly doctor in his 70’s. And before the good doctor, a godly middle-aged woman who worked in finance and who volunteers her time with the mentally ill in group homes and the elderly in convalescent homes.

    I am now making the rounds of ALL of the city councils in Silicon Valley where these pastors/elders live to discuss what a danger they are — and this church — to the public.

  83. Friend wrote:

    Ya know, there was a time when attending a public school was considered a mark of responsibility. Knowing the public bus schedule was also virtuous. Our public institutions might have some problems these days, but abandoning them is not a good idea. And separatism never works very well for anybody.

    Our experience has been different from that. The feds, and the state, and the local school system and ResidentEducator all are on record as thinking that the problems in the schools are a lot more than just ‘some’. No, we the people must not abandon the schools, but they must be fixed. There are systemic problems that will require major changes.

    I went to public schools, my children went to public schools, but now all my grandchildren are in private schools-private religious schools. St.This and Our Lady of Whatever. We are not religious fanatics, but we do maintain our family, and have for generations, by getting educations with the skills to go with it and then selling that in the market place. That is what we do; how we do the roof over the head and the food on the table thing. But to do that it now takes, for us, private school at a fairly young age. It is financially crippling. Young son says that his kids will be at Our Lady..as long as he has something to sell to pay the tuition. At my house it takes my retirement income to accomplish this and when I die it will all fall apart. So far I have no known metastases so we go day by day. This is how serious we are about this; but we did not set out to want it to come to this.

    And we do remember about the housing bubble being partly driven by parents buying too much house in order to get in a better school district. This is everybody’s problem.

    We must, must, must as a nation fix our schools. We must give all our children all that they can absorb. Remember the old slogan about a mind being a terrible thing to waste. It is. We have got to do better.

  84. Ken F wrote:

    Max wrote:
    One of Piper’s sons rebelled, too. Piper had him excommunicated from the church!
    The YRRs use the term “excommunication” in a funny way. It literally means “out of communication.” This means no contact, no community. But Piper continued to meet with his son during the period of excommunication. So he had communication with him while he was out of communication. Words have no meaning with these folks.

    Leah Remini’s expose/documentary on Scientology “disconnection” practices and other high-control methods of a high-control group is pretty much spot on for the practices and problems that we’re seeing in NeoCalvinists. These are Thought Reform groups. I would also call them cults.

  85. And the 10 stages of drunkenness are: Witty and charming
    Rich and powerful
    Benevolent
    Clairvoyant
    F— dinner
    Patriotic
    Crank up the Enola Gay
    Witty and charming, Part II
    Invisible
    Bulletproof

  86. @ Nancy2:
    Nope I refuse to eat raw broccoli. And heaven forbid I get the warm but still crunchy stuff. Should be hot, soft and well salted with enough cheese sauce to drown the taste.

  87. Burwell wrote:

    GSD wrote:

    pot providence

    Isn’t that a store located in the Denver International Airport?

    *Rimshot*

    I’ll be here all week, ladies and gentlemen.

    Friend wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    *Rimshot*
    I’ll be here all week, ladies and gentlemen.

    I’ll be sure to order the veal and remember to tip my waitress.

    I’m waiting for the hook.

    😀

  88. Jenny wrote:

    This reminded me that folks in my old church refused to say ‘deviled eggs’. They called them ‘angel eggs’ instead.

    Old saying: I don’t care what you call it, just so you call me when it’s ready.

  89. refugee wrote:

    wait, I take back the part about alcohol and Doug Phillips. I’m not completely sure about that, as he was a baptist of some kind or other, wasn’t he?

    I seem to remember when that whole treachery with him and the girl he groomed and sexually abused came out and how Phillips didn’t submit to discipline at his own church, it was mentioned by at Spiritual Sounding Board that he had an occasional drink.

    But it definitely applies to RC Jr. and Doug Wilson.

  90. Velour wrote:

    Leah Remini’s expose/documentary on Scientology “disconnection” practices and other high-control methods of a high-control group is pretty much spot on for the practices and problems that we’re seeing in NeoCalvinists.

    I fully expect to see the aberrations of New Calvinism make headline news some day. A good investigative reporter could shed light on some of its most egregious practices. Of course, that is what Deb and Dee have been doing, but the reformed movement needs more national attention – we are losing our youth to it.

  91. Velour wrote:

    the evil game is played by pastors/elders in their 40’s and 50’s

    Some folks never grow up … and it’s really bad if someone called “pastor” doesn’t mature spiritually.

  92. Gus wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Didn’t one of those guys brag about his Hemingwayesque trophy hunting in Africa?

    You might be thinking of Paige Patterson there. He’s the one who has filled his house with articles of slaughtered wildlife.

    I’ve known a couple hunters.
    If he has to “brag about his Hemingwayesque trophy hunting in Africa”, he’s not one. He’s a wanna-be.
    Wish I could run him into a REAL classic big game hunter — like Jim Corbett of Kumaon or a certain retired President whose initials were T.R. It’d be like Douggie ESQUIRE in full General Patton cosplay drag running into the REAL George Patton.

  93. refugee wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    @ refugee:
    meant to say that their arrogance came off as refreshing, most of the time… they had rediscovered the truth that the established church, petrifying in the Traditions of Man, had lost over the centuries
    Didn’t Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, and Mo David all make the same claim?

    Sure thing! And many more, in all probability.

    David Koresh, Jim Jones, every Reverend Apostle/Prophet Joe Soap…

  94. Muff Potter wrote:

    Didn’t one of those guys brag about his Hemingwayesque trophy hunting in Africa?

    If he WAS being “Hemingwayesque”, he’d be spending his days over a typewriter while bombed on cheap Scotch and his nights shooting at sharks in the surf with a submachine gun.

  95. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I have heard of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party. Their saving grace is they do NOT take themselves seriously.
    Imagine somebody as far out as the OMRLPs except DEAD SERIOUS, KNOWING Their Agenda is to be everybody’s Personal LORD and Savior, THE Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.

    Sadly, we do not have to imagine such monstrous people; at least two of the world’s major religions have produced them in enough numbers for them to find one another and become organised groups.

    One more thing about the Official Monster Raving Loony Party: what everyone over here likes about them is that they kind of do take themselves seriously – in the sense that they put a lot of effort into the game. You might think of them as actors who rarely come out of character. But in the most important sense, they don’t take themselves seriously: they retain a deep-rooted and very clear knowledge that they’re just having fun and that it is not their task to re-create the world. They have two particular long-standing policies, for instance:
     Any Loony Party candidate who actually succeeds in getting themselves elected to public office will be immediately expelled from the party;
     If elected, the OMRLP will not fulfil any of its campaign promises.

    On that second point, there’s no shortage of ironic comparisons with the “serious” parties…

    Here’s an excerpt from the start of their 2005 General Election Manifesto:

    On the eve of the dissolution, we take the liberty of recalling to your minds the considerations which, in our judgement, should weigh with you in the exercise of your rights as voters during the next few weeks.

    We firstly intend to sack anyone who writes such nonsense as the opening statement, and pledge to fight the general election on an invisible platform so that people cannot see the floors in our policies.

    We are pleased that the Government has stolen our loony policy of discouraging binge drinking by proposing to open pubs for 24 hours and now feel that the public see that a vote for the Official Monster Raving Loony Party is no longer a wasted vote. We are preparing for Government.

    BTW, the binge-drinking-pub-opening thing is actually true.

  96. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    refugee wrote:

    If the conference was held in the warm months, there would usually be a whole-church get-together one of the days of the conference, with a picnic/barbeque/potluck (though the approved term was “shared meal” because of the “luck” in “potluck”).

    Did they greet each other with “Heaven-O” instead of “Hello”?

    Wow, did they not know that “potluck” comes from “potlatch”, a Native American word?

  97. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    One more thing about the Official Monster Raving Loony Party: what everyone over here likes about them is that they kind of do take themselves seriously – in the sense that they put a lot of effort into the game.

    Over here we have The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ( http://www.venganza.org/about/ ). They seem to take themselves seriously also. They will sell you an Official Ordination Certificate for $25. I don’t know if they sell doctorates.

    Have a blessed and merry Christmas.

  98. @ refugee:
    I hear you. I have a colleague who recently left a mid size church because she and her husband were the only couple in the church whose kids were in public school. people at church actually pitied them! You know, the whole ‘bless their heart’s routine. They are actually In a high performing traditional school where you have to have the grades to be accepted. But the church people did not get that at all. It was “public”, you know.

    I have serious issues with most of our local public schools. But there are high performing magnet schools where entrance is based on grades, attendance, extra curricular activities, essays and interviews. They have no discipline problems because of what you have to go through to get in. Thousands apply for one slot.

    The private schools here have been hurting because of the economy.

  99. Lydia wrote:

    But there are high performing magnet schools where entrance is based on grades, attendance, extra curricular activities, essays and interviews.

    I went to private elementary and public high school. The sheer size of the public school meant there were more opportunities for things like music programs, debate, etc, and that there were more academically challenging classes (AP/Honors). I firmly believe I got a better education there than I would have at the school I left. (there are better private high schools than that but they have high price tags).

  100. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    I’m surprised they haven’t jumped on board the “Biblical Polygamy” bandwagon yet….
    http://biblepolygamy.com
    Why have ONE smokin’ hot wife to meet all your needs when you could have five?

    Why stop at five, eh, Brother Brigham?

    The Old Testament Patriarchs didn’t.
    (Citing OT Patriarch examples was the Biblical justification used by Joseph Smith when introducing Plural Marriage.)

  101. I’m nmgirl wrote:
    <blockquoteAnd the 10 stages of drunkenness are: Witty and charming
    Rich and powerful
    Benevolent
    Clairvoyant
    F— dinner
    Patriotic
    Crank up the Enola Gay
    Witty and charming, Part II
    Invisible
    Bulletproof

  102. Your response rocks! Not judging here, since I too partake of the evil fluids and have a log in my own eye (Matt 5:3-7), but I’m sure his dad would say it was ‘ordained by God’, since there is not a ‘molecule out of place’ in God’s sovereignty, according to RC Sproul Sr (the current reigning theolouge in the Neo-Calm crowd) next to Bruce Ware and John Piper. This just shows to everyone that theologians and many ‘Bible scholars’ are out of touch with real life. Talk about living in an ivory tower. Neo-cals, ‘get a grip’ and reconsider your basic theological assumptions!! And anyone who judges, or who are teetotolars, or are ‘fundamentalist theological voyeurs, need to ‘get a grip’. Did you know that drinking has been a part of Christianity since the beginning, and even some of early church fathers denounced as heretical anyone who said that drinking was sinful! That is until the temperance movement began in the late 19th and early 20th century. I am not making a case for drunkeness, in public, or driving or even in private, I’m just saying this is another issue on which current evangelical ‘thought’ may run counter to Scripture or even life in general, and includes a bunch of man made rules to follow. (Which in my opinion may help in some quarters to perpetuate the problem of alcoholism,when taken in context of other things). A recent survey done in 2005 of 2006 said that despite their churches policy against drinking, 46% of SBC members drank socially. Which reminds me of joke, which many if you may have heard already, but please humor me: “What is the difference between a Presbyterian and a Baptist?” Presbyterians speak to each other in the liquor store”.

  103. https://youtu.be/RpfOekpnQq0 I got this in my facebook feed, I left a somewhat cryptic message concerning help for family. Hoping someone sees it and really intervenes for RC jr especially for his young ones / children. I did find the video hard to watch knowing what has transpired for decades with his son and even in his ministry to some degree. My hope is that what time any of us have left we live it well. Does that make any sense?

  104. brian wrote:

    My hope is that what time any of us have left we live it well. Does that make any sense?

    Yes. Yes, it does. We will soon be far less safe than we are today, so is good now to make peace with our God and with one another, in so far as it is possible to do so.

  105. Theoscrimshander wrote:

    “What is the difference between a Presbyterian and a Baptist?” Presbyterians speak to each other in the liquor store”

    I am no longer a Baptist so I do not need to pretend I never drink a glass of wine.

  106. CHIPS wrote:

    If you guys recall RC Sproul Jr got caught on Ashley Madison (at the same time when his first wife was battling cancer???). Now he is caught drunk driving with his OWN KID in the car.

    RC Jr’s wife died December 2011, way before the Ashley Madison incident (he had visited the site in aug. 2014), so please, check your facts before you make statements that further blemish a man that is already disgraced.

  107. Mike R wrote:

    Second, all this gossip.

    Baloney!
    RC Sprould JR used his public persona to get paid, sell books, speak at conferences, etc. When one plays in public, the public has the right to know what sort of leader he really is. That is not gossip. It is accountability, a word seldom applied to celebrity preachers. It is time we all know what is going on with these self appointed leaders.