“Just because something isn't a lie does not mean that it isn't deceptive. A liar knows that he is a liar, but one who speaks mere portions of truth in order to deceive is a craftsman of destruction.” ― Criss Jami link
Hold onto you seats, folks. This is the tale of another woman who was brought into Tullian Tchividjian's rather bizarre circle of women and men fanboys. If it is possible, I believe that this story is even worse than the last on we posted Tullian Tchividjian: Where Is the Shame That Needed Grace? *Lisa* Tells Her Story to Nate Sparks and Lauren Larkin.
Please pay close attention to a couple of points.
1. In regards to his wonderful brother Boz Tchividjian, he allegedly expressed that he wished Boz would die. Given Tullian's apparent ability to justify his increasingly worrisome behavior, I consider this alarming. If these allegations are true, it appears that Tullian has developed a serious psychological disorder that needs intensive intervention.
2. Stacie, his twice divorced wife, apparently talked with Tullian's now ex-wife, Kim and described her sexual activity with Tullian during the time that Tullian was reportedly trying to reunite with Kim. If this is true, Stacie is a despicable individual who should be ashamed of herself. Her flaunting of wedding pictures reminds me on my pug dog Lilly who likes to parade her hidden bone in front of Tulip and Petunia when they don't have one. Well, she got herself a guy who cheats on his wife with women like her. I would be worried if I were her.
There is a Facebook page featuring folks who wish Tullian Tchividjian was still their pastor. Frankly, this whole thing dismays me. It appears you can fool some of the people all of the time, especially if they are in the church. I think I now know what Paul was getting at when he said in Romans 6:1-4 (NIV Bible Gateway.)
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Thank you for Nate Sparks and Lauren R.E. Larkin for allowing me to reprint this post.
**Content Editor: Lauren R.E. Larkin**
In the last post, I introduced the reader to Lisa. Lisa allows me to tell her story of being groomed and manipulated by Tullian Tchividjian. Today, I will be recounting the second story in this series, that of Kara.
One of the more interesting things I learned from Kara was that Tullian targeted men, as well as women, for abuse. Tullian had groomed several men to essentially function as his “yes men,” to never question him and to meet his emotional needs whenever he needed someone to reinforce his own opinions. In much the same way as the women, these men were often persons with deep wells of pain related to abuse at the hands of loved ones, friends, and the church.
Looking back, Kara recognizes that Tullian used both men and women to shore up the narrative he wished to advance and to defend himself against persons saying anything negative about his message or attempting to bring his abuses to light. Thus Tullian would not have to personally get his hands dirty. However, a significant difference also exists between how Tullian treated men and women. According to Kara, while, Tullian would manipulate men to further his own narrative, shore up his own ego, and occasionally to pad his own pockets, some of the women were also subjected to repeated sexual advances.
A Brief Disclaimer
Because of the nature of the narrative below, the woman in question has chosen to remain anonymous. I respect that decision, and her decision not to use her real name has absolutely no bearing on her credibility. Her story has been careful vetted through multiple sources, and it is my position that she ought to be believed and afforded to care deserved by every victim of abuse. Further, through talking both to “Kara” and to other sources, I have every reason to believe that the experience she claims to have had hints at a larger trend of predatory behavior practiced by Tullian Tchividjian.
For this reason, any derogatory or negative comments will be deleted. If a reader wishes to express concern or contend the details of this post, they are advised to email me at the address provided on my “About” page.
Groomed by the Church
Prior to meeting Tullian, Kara had walked through a devastating situation in a PCA church, the evangelical wing of the Presbyterian tradition in the United States. She was put through what the pastors referred to as a “process.” Specifically, she was subjected to the scriptural teaching of pastors who asked her to suffer abuse to keep her marriage together. They said, “Jesus was abused and she should make it her life ministry (to be abused)”. These men also told her, “Jesus turned the other cheek to his abusers.” In her own words, Kara states that pastors told her, “Although I did not have to have sex with my husband when he demanded it and said horrible things to me, the pastor asked me if would I still do it, because it might be the silver bullet to change his heart.” According to her, the pastors refused to grant her biblical grounds of divorce citing the PCA doctrine that “financial and emotional abuse are not grounds for divorce in the PCA .”
For over a year, these men – who had zero professional counseling experience or training – claimed they were qualified to counsel her and her spouse, shoring up her ex’s refusal to see a professional counselor. They cited the PCA Book of Church Order to try to convince her that submitting to their “godly authority” required her to trust their “process” regardless of significant negative impact their “counseling” was having on her, her kids, and even her spouse. It became apparent to her that PCA teachings that denied women a voice in the church, and made her feel like she was nothing more than a “body” for male consumption, overflowed into how she was counseled. She was put into a position where she had no way to protect herself financially, emotionally, spiritually or physically. Quite literally, the pastors of her church gaslighted her into believing that her feelings and intuitions were untrustworthy. She was groomed to believe that the men around her were chosen by God to lead her and that, regardless of her own opinion of their words and actions, she had to assume the best and that they were attempting to behave in a godly manner toward her.
Like Lisa, and so many other women, Kara is the victim of Evangelical patriarchy. She was groomed to submit herself to a church who either intentionally robs women of their god-given voice in the home and church or they make them second guess it or put it aside to hold marriages together. They would allow her to express her feelings, but their continued insistence on the efficacy of the counseling process made clear to her that they did not see her feelings as valid. They refused to see the damage their counsel was doing to her and her home. Instead, her church’s belief and teaching of complementarianism as Gospel truth forced her to stay in a process where male authority had to validate her feelings, thoughts, beliefs and actions.
As with Lisa, this set the stage for the ways in which Tullian would manipulate and pastorally abuse her. Further, from talking with other victims of Tullian, she can also say that the patriarchal systems of the Evangelical church also played a significant role in grooming many other persons – both men and women – to be used by Tullian to feed his own ego.
Exploited Strength
In the time before she first came into contact with Tullian, Kara found her voice. She became aware of the abuses within her church’s theology and took a stand against them. She came to recognize that popular theological buzzwords like “submission, humility, servanthood and godly womanhood” were too easily used by male authority to silence women and by abusers to silence their victims. The gender roles she was taught over a lifetime in church were a breeding ground for men to manipulate, control, and assault women while painting it as sound doctrine.
In this way, Kara told me, “My story is not primarily about Tullian Tchividjian.” She recognizes that Tullian is a predator, but he never would have been able to exploit her had this not been happening her entire life in the church. She has come to realize that predatory men like Tullian Tchividjian rise to power precisely because the Evangelical church has created a system not only of patriarchy, but of kyriarchy – a hierarchy of power predicated on the submission, disenfranchisement, and silencing of women. Ironically, finding her strength beyond the gendered limitations of Evangelicalism was precisely the door Tullian used to manipulate her.
Meeting Tullian
A couple of years prior to meeting Tullian, she had come into contact with Tullian’s books and teachings through the ministries of Steve Brown, Mockingbird, and Elyse Fitzpatrick. The message of grace she found through this group and other authors like Brennan Manning “saved her life and gave her strength to be radically honest about her own sins and accept a love and forgiveness from Jesus that she had never known, though growing up in church.” In fact, knowing how much she was both loved and forgiven emboldened her to stand up for herself and even walk through her church’s “process.”
It was only a month after her ex chose to leave their church and file for divorce that Kara was approached by Tullian through Twitter. She had challenged the views of a PCA pastor and Tullian took notice of her boldness; he reached out to her via direct message, saying, “I see you love the gospel, let me send you some books.” Kara used this opportunity to share her story with Tullian, the impact his teachings had on her life, and the strength that she had received from them.
Looking back, she notes that, at the time, she found her exchanges with Tullian deeply encouraging. His words of support were much needed after months of fighting for herself to be heard and believed. Her early conversations with Tullian were validating. He said he would be her pastor, he affirmed her theology, and affirmed her assertion that the church discipline process she had faced was wrong and abusive.
Prior to meeting Tullian, Kara had already started to build healthy male friendships after a lifetime of being conditioned to put men on pedestals. It was these healthy male friends both inside and outside a different church who had helped her to stand up for herself. They had been instrumental in supporting her to trust God and His truth. The truth that said she did not have to submit to people who said they loved her, but left her no room to have a voice. She was learning to say no to the Church’s abuses and to believe that God loved her more than the institution of marriage. It was these godly men who encouraged her to challenge the counseling “process” her church demanded her to walk through. It was because of these healthy friendships with men, that she believed Tullian would also be a respectful and healthy source of friendship.
Kara describes it thus: “I already felt like I knew Tullian because of his message and so it was easy to talk to Tullian. I loved the message he preached and admired that he had the courage to preach this message in a PCA church. Tullian treated me as a theological equal, which was very meaningful considering this went against my church experience. Tullian and I talked a lot of theology. And of course I was flattered when I heard things we had talked about end up in his sermons.”
They began to talk daily. Tullian was very into fitness and learned she was trainer. As a result, she helped design a personal fitness program. At one point, he asked her to obtain anabolic steroids for him, something she couldn’t do. She learned that he later obtained them through a trainer near him in Florida.
She often talked to her friends about Tullian. She believed that Tullian was being forthright with his wife and church about his communications with her as well. At the time, she assumed that Tullian had reached out to her in a pastoral capacity, to offer friendship and encouragement. She was of the impression he appreciated her for her strong voice and passion for a grace centered Gospel. Tullian offered a sense of solidarity. He made her feel like a theological equal. He seemed like an open book, open and honest about his own story through his teaching. Because she believed that they both had all their cards on the table, Tullian made it very easy to be completely honest. Tullian made himself very accessible and easy to talk to. In many ways, she felt like she had known him for a long time. He continued texting her daily with encouragement, He would send her music and ask for her advice on his training routine. Because she was still walking through a horrible divorce, his friendship was helping her to cope with all the stress in her life.
Face to Face Friendship
Kara first met Tullian face to face at a conference in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, in the Fall of 2014. He had a Coral Ridge pastor traveling with him, as well as a young couple that had driven to see him from Nashville. After the conference they continued to exchange text messages almost every day for several months.
He then invited her to the Liberate conference in February, 2015, and then to the Mockingbird conference in April, 2015.[1] At Mockingbird, Kara was bothered by how Tullian approached a female DJ to get her number, then immediately started texting her from his phone.
Immediately upon returning to Florida from NYC, Kim’s affair was made public.
Tullian asked her Kara to visit him in May and July. He said that he needed her to visit Fort Lauderdale to support him, to help him walk through his exit from Coral Ridge, and wanted her to be involved in the ministry that he would continue with Liberate. Kara’s friendship with Tullian continued right up until his latest attempt to reenter ministry in September, 2016.
Spring/Summer 2015
During the months after Kim’s affair became public knowledge in the Spring of 2015, Kara visited Tullian in Florida on a couple of occasions to provide emotional support for him. He had also gathered around other people from all over the country. These people, men and women, joined him in Florida to support what they believed to be his emotional, mental, spiritual, financial, and relational needs as he tried to secure the future of Liberate and decide his next move professionally.
On the second of these trips, in early July, 2015, Kara, and several others, spent time with Tullian tempting to meet his needs. On two occasions, Kara and Tullian visited a local gym. On one of these occasions, a woman stopped by to see Tullian at the gym (to protect the identity of this woman, she will be referred to as Sue). Tullian told Kara that Sue had been Kim’s trainer; the two disappeared for a while. Kara felt something seemed off, and was bothered by how intimate they seemed. From the way Tullian and Sue talked, it seemed apparent that the two had known each other for a while.
After their workout, she questioned Tullian his relationship with the woman, but he insisted that there was nothing going on.
On July 30, 2015, it was revealed that Tullian Tchividjian had been having an “affair” with Sue. Kara would later learn that Tullian was also texting and calling Sue regularly for months, even before he learned of Kim’s affair, which at the time he claimed caused him to “subsequently [seek] comfort in a friend.”
After arriving home and finding out about Tullian’s “affair,” Kara began to seriously doubt Tullian’s honesty about many things. She realized that he had been seeing this woman for some time, and that he had been lying to everyone.
She had believed that Tullian’s message of grace freed him to be radically honest with her and the people with whom he said he was being honest. Now she realized that Tullian is only ever as honest as he needs to be: just honest enough to use the situation and people around him to advance his own narrative, to feed his own ego by portraying himself as the “good guy” while creatively masking the depravity of his actions and thoughts.
When this affair was revealed, Tullian directly claimed that this had been a “rebound” affair, that he had simply succumbed to his hurt and loneliness. Yet, his established relationship with her before Kim’s affair reveals two things:
First, it reveals that at least some of his texting arrangements resulted in actual sexual encounters with the women being texted. Given the grooming techniques used with women like Lisa – the sexual comments, and the demonizing of his wife, the use of pastoral counsel to create a relationship of trust and privilege, and the explicit targeting of women from situations of abuse and hurt – it forces the reader to wonder the nature of the texting relationship between Tullian and Sue while he was still married to Kim.
Second, it exposes the ways in which Tullian’s neglect and dishonesty contributed to the dissolution of his marriage. His narrative of a hurting husband wounded by his unfaithful wife simply does not hold water.
Instead, Kara’s story exposes just how willing Tullian was to destroy other persons in order to preserve his own privileges. Tullian chose to openly lieabout his wife, destroying her public reputation, in order to maintain his own position of privilege and influence. Further, he leveraged these lies to gain a new position at Kevin Labby’s Willow Creek Church, a move which brought great embarrassment to both Labby and Willow Creek when Tullian’s lies were exposed in March, 2016.
Also, Kara notes that during this time she chose to publicly defend Tullian on social media, she believed Tullian’s stories that he had been treated unfairly. However, after his lies regarding Sue were brought to light, she decided to end public defense. The next time Tullian asked her (and a friend) to target someone online, neither responded to his request.
As we learned from Lisa’s story, this was a common occurrence. He perpetuated a false narrative to convince others to publicly defend him, while avoiding getting his own hands dirty. These actions damaged the lives and reputations who sought to defend his lies, leaving them devastated and hurting at his betrayal.
Further Accusations
Over time, Kara would learn of several other women who were in similar texting arrangements with Tullian. Of these women, she learned that several of them received text messages that were sexually explicit, or contained sexual advances.[2]
Reflecting on her own texts with Tullian, Kara realized that he had a tendency to make sexual jokes and use crude language. At the time, she did not think much of these, and did not perceive them as sexual advances toward her. In retrospect, she realizes Tullian used these comments to fish for a response. Because she was never interested in Tullian sexually, she would either laugh at his absurdity or make excuses for him.
On one occasion, Kara found out that Tullian was pursuing one of her friends, even while he was dating his now wife Staci. She confronted him, and he told her that her friend was lying. As time passed, and she learned of each of the several women he was texting,she would ask him about it.
Each time he would call it a lie, say the woman was crazy, or deny knowing her all together.
Also, according to Kara, Tullian also had a large network of people at his beck and call. He kept these persons – men and women – largely disconnected from one another, then exploited them each to meet his needs and fuel his ego. Anytime he felt he needed anything to fuel his ego–financial, emotional, theological, spiritual, or physical—support was just a phone call away
Ever the master manipulator, Tullian kept all of these people thinking that he was there for them, but, in reality, they were only ever there to benefit of him.
In the midst of all of this, Kara still strived to be a “good friend” to Tullian. She continued to see him as a broken man in need of the love and grace he so often preached about. She believed her friendship could be a source of that for him, and tried desperately to get through to him.
From August to March, 2016, Kara didn’t hear much from Tullian. He occasionally called to talk about his divorce, but she could clearly see that he was still refusing to be honest about Sue and how long he had continued to date her after their “affair” had come to light. When he stopped calling, she assumed the reason was: he was either dating someone new or getting the help and counseling he desperately needed.
In March 2016, more of Tullian’s lies came to light. Tullian Tchividjian was accused of further sexual misconduct, which took place in 2014. He was also revealed to have participated in a conspiracy to cover up his conduct, and immediately fired from Willow Creek. After this information came out, she reached out to him to ask him about the affair that had just come to light. He claimed he’d never had sex with the woman in question, and that leadership at Coral Ridge had known about, but he had never told Kim. He also tried to spin the narrative that staff at Willow Creek had always known about this “affair,” and now they were just trying to protect themselves in order to “cover up their own church scandals.”
Attempted Reconciliation
Shortly after this, Kara learned that Tullian had left the state of Florida, and was living in Texas, and she reached out to him. He began texting her asking her advice about reconciling with Kim. The two had very in depth conversations about his relationship with Kim. He would confess his love for Kim and that she had started talking to him again. He claimed, they were being completely honest with each other for the first time.
It was a couple of weeks later when Tullian would call Kara and confess to cheating on Kim while they were still married. Kara insisted he needed to confess this to Kim if he ever wanted to reconcile, but Tullian was reticent, claiming it was “in the past and he had been forgiven.” Kara disagreed because Tullian’s lies about his actions would directly affect Kim. If they were to have a chance reconciling, they would need complete truth.
During these conversations, Tullian never mentioned that he and his girlfriend Stacie, whom he had been dating for several months, were living together.
When Tullian finally did mention Stacie, he made it seeem as if Stacie had been a rebound relationship. She believed him at the time because she couldn’t honestly imagine any woman being in a serious relationship with Tullian after everything that had been made public knowledge – his divorce from Kim (after 21 years!), the very public collapse of his ministry, and two very public sex scandals which had torn apart his family.
After these conversations, she was encouraged to hear Tullian say he wanted to try and reconcile with his wife. She believed that he truly cared for Kim and was willing to own up to lies and abuses. After he was in Florida for two weeks, he contacted Kara and said he had decided to return to Texas to get his things so he could move back to Florida to be with Kim.
However, unbeknownst to Tullian, while he was leaving Texas to head back to Florida, Kim had called to talk with Stacie. In this conversation, Kim discovered Tullian had been entirely dishonest with her (Kim) about his relationship with Stacie – the length of time they had been dating, that they were living together, and that he and Stacie had intimate relations on his return to Texas.
Kim called Tullian and told him not to come, but Tullian continued to Florida anyway, insisting to Kara that he would win Kim back.[3]
Marriage
A few days later, Tullian reached out again to Kara and told her it wasn’t going to work out with Kim. He said he would be coming through her area and asked if they could meet up to talk. She agreed to do so.
However, Kara never heard from Tullian. Two weeks later she learned he planned to marry Stacie. She texted him, shocked by this news. She tried to convince him he needed some time to be alone, that it was unhealthy to rush into a marriage with Stacie after everything that had just transpired with Kim. But Tullian insisted, “I can’t be alone. I am at my worst alone.” He spent the entire conversation attempting to justify all his actions. He even insisted one of his counselors, Paul Zahl – a person whom he claimed had “never given him advice before” -supported his marriage to Stacie.
Days later, he texted Kara saying, “It’s right. I’m confident. Be happy for me. 
In time you’ll see.”
He then married Stacie.
Final Straw
The two texted sparingly until September 27, when Tullian’s post was published on the Expastors site. She texted Tullian in disbelief of what he had written. In her opinion, he was being entirely dishonest, using misinformation and manipulation to garner sympathy for a false narrative. She was offended that, even after everything that had happened – everything that was made public, and everything she knew that wasn’t pubic information – Tullian was still trying to paint himself as both the victim and the hero of the story.
Especially after the events of the past month – the failed reconciliation and the sudden wedding – she wanted him to see that he still needed to be honest with himself. She believed that preaching radical honesty, while engaging in utter falsehood, would only further hurt everyone involved. As she saw it, if he claimed to represent a God of truth, wasn’t Tullian obligated to expose his own lies?
She texted him to confront him, and he was very defensive. In their brief conversation, he made it clear he was still sticking to his twisted narrative.
Looking Back
Looking back on her friendship with Tullian, Kara now believes that the level and type of attention he gave her was entirely unhealthy, especially for a man with a wife and family. She now realizes that Tullian exploited the needs of many people – men and women – in order to feed his own ego, and cover his own insecurities. He had attached himself to the gospel message in such a way that many of these people believed he had helped saved their life, and he fed off that area of vulnerability.
In reflecting on this, Kara states, “I believe the truth that has come about has forced the separation needed between Tullian and the message he preached. God’s gospel is true and he used Tullian to preach it, even though Tullian didn’t get it on many levels. Tullian taught that one of the first things the gospel does is free you to be is honest, and it’s apparent Tullian can’t be honest, unless it’s a level of honesty that helps his career.”
Conclusion
When I talked with Kara, one of the things she stated strongly was that, while she is angry with Tullian for his many abuses and lies, she also pities him. Just as she was groomed by the Evangelical Church in a way that created an opening for Tullian to exploit, Tullian was also trained by the Church to believe that his ego, power, and privilege were of the highest value. When power and privilege is the highest good, pastors will exploit those placed in their care in order to maintain this elevated status. This creates a kyriarchal system, by which a powerful “elect” group of oligarchs pursue power at the expense of an oppressed constituency.
As I said in my previous post, the Evangelical Church has become an industrial complex fueled by the suffering of victims, producing an endless supply of ego for the men at the top. In this way, Tullian Tchividjian represents a microcosm of a larger system. A system that must itself be dismantled, lest five more abusers pop up in his wake.
It must be recognized that, even now, this industrial complex is allowing Tullian to once again take public platform. He has once again begun spreading a message of transparency – speaking on October 31 at Spring Hills Community Church – and yet he has not actually demonstrated any.
He preached about owning one’s sin and “messiness,” yet to this day he continues to advance a narrative based not on confessing his serial abuses, but on hiding them. As Kara has observed, Tullian uses a message of “authenticity” and “realness” to keep his audience navel gazing, a move classically employed by abusive persons to blind their victims to the ways in which they are being exploited.
Tullian has continued to behave as a serial pastoral predator, using a message of “humility” to lower and exploit those around him, while elevating himself and bolstering his own ego in a way that is entirely self-contradictory.
If the Gospel of Grace that Tullian confesses is predicated on Truth and Love, then it seems that there is no Gospel to be found in his platform and Tullian continues to use people who are desperate for love and truth to build his kingdom and ego.
[1] Multiple sources confirm that Kara attended both these conferences and was seen hanging out as friends with Tullian Tchividjian.
[2] Multiple sources have confirmed both that Tullian carried on such arrangements, and that he often made sexual advances to women via text message.
[3] Multiple sources have confirmed that Tullian did, indeed, travel to Florida to attempt to reconcile with Kim.
If this is true, I think it’s probably for the best for Kim that Stacie told her the truth, even if that’s kind of an awful situation to be in. Tullian should have told her the truth.
Now why Stacie would want to marry a man who was making overtures to his wife a month before the wedding is another question. Sheesh.
Yet another example of why Wartburgers never need to watch soap opera.
I couldn’t make up anything this sleazy if I tried.
Lea wrote:
Doesn’t say much for her IQ or character.
And now she’s married to a serial player; of course now he’ll stay with her and not keep another Stacie on the side! Won’t he?
Harley Quinn has found her Joker.
Or has the Joker found his latest Harley Quinn?
Of course, he’s Highborn of House Graham!
(Now if that pesky brother of his would just die and leave him the succession…)
Remember how predators not only groom their victims, but third-party allies as well?
“Let Bubba do the Dirty Work” = Plausible Deniability.
Wipe mouth and announce “I have not sinned — HE DID!”
It hurt my heart to read that.
1 John 4:20
If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well if her goal was to remove the competition and get herself married, success!
siteseer wrote:
*Burn*
Lea wrote:
Considering she’s now married to a Serial Player as well as a Christian Celebrity(TM), for how long?
As in Boz should start watching where he walks?
(He’s a former prosecutor; I’m sure he’s had to deal with such precautions before.)
https://www.facebook.com/TheRenewConference/videos/vb.251779634852291/10150386351937902/?type=2&theater interesting link here
“She (‘Kara’) was groomed to believe that the men around her were chosen by God to lead her and that, regardless of her own opinion of their words and actions, she had to assume the best and that they were attempting to behave in a godly manner toward her.”
this is cult thinking where the person is told to ignore their own thoughts, feelings, and inner voice of conscience;
and instead, to be ‘led’ into being a puppet of others. It goes against so much of Judeo-Christian teaching that I cannot imagine it being accepted by Christian people who are very much ‘people of conscience’.
“Master of Manipulation”
It’s becoming increasingly clear that the New Calvinist movement is all about control, manipulation and intimidation. It’s a leadership style you won’t find in New Testament example.
Max wrote:
Actually, I should have said “It’s a leadership style you won’t find in New Testament example (of authentic church).” Scripture does record usurpers who called themselves pastors and used the name of Christ to attract followers for their own ends. TWW has recorded many such characters in the New Calvinist movement.
Christiane wrote:
“Most cults are started so the cult leader can (1) get rich; (2) get laid; or (3) both.”
— my old D&D Dungeonmaster
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Or maybe that’s the whole idea?
When he starts on the next one, divorce him and take him for all he’s got?
“It’s called a hustle, Sweetheart.”
— Judy Hopps, Zootopia
I was frightened by the fact that Tulllian told Kara that he had obtained anabolic steroids from a friend in Texas.
I was married to someone who fell into “‘roid rage”. It is terrifying.
Might explain his recent comments about his brother.
“As I said in my previous post, the Evangelical Church has become an industrial complex fueled by the suffering of victims, producing an endless supply of ego for the men at the top.”
This is what I have come to believe over time. The ‘Evangelical Church’ is total anarchy, and anything goes, including all sorts of scams. So sad that it’s done in the name of our Lord. This is what makes Christianity the butt of jokes in ‘the world’.
Molly245 wrote:
He’s shooting ‘roids?
That would fit with the “I’m Too Sex-ay for My Pecs” Facebook photo…
“ME MAN! ME BUFF! RAWR!”
(Somebody better tell him that one of the side effects of ‘roid addiction is impotence…)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think the guy is profoundly disturbed, and needs to clean up his act. But I fear he’s not going to, and someone is going to get hurt. I mean, seriously physically hurt.
He was married to Kim for 21 years. Somehow I don’t believe he was faithful to her the whole time he was married to her. He just got found out. I’ve had friends like this. They were the last one to know that hubby was having multiple affairs. You just don’t up and change and decide to start having several affairs. It’s got to come from somewhere.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
people reap what they sow in this world
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You know, it’s very possible Tules could be hustled the way he hustles others. He probably believes he has so much power over people that he wouldn’t even consider that he could be fooled.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep, I’m waiting for The Wartburg Watch to start publishing a tabloid newspaper for the supermarket checkouts. They could even hire some paparazzi. Got to get the latest sleaze about who is cheating on who in the Christian circles. It could be a big money maker.
Thank God this is not the PCA I know. TT sounds like he is out of his mind in sin. I knew when I heard of his push for grace that it sounded like hyper grace which is heretical. What he taught has born fruit in his sad and sinful life. To even hate his own brother. Pure evil.
Godith wrote:
Cheap grace which is not Grace at all. The New Calvinist movement pushes grace well beyond its boundaries. TT’s life is a display of misplaced grace – he must truly believe that Christians are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality. New Calvinism, if allowed to run its course, will lead to antinomianism. There are more TT’s which will be revealed – take it to the bank.
Max wrote:
Max, as usual you have hit the nail on the head. In my opinion, “hyper grace” amounts to a parody in the end. And yes – antinomianism.
TT has huge problems, in this world and the next. So sad.
I gotten to the point where I trust a non Christian before one.We are having condo elections this month. The choice is a two fundamentlist,a faith name and claim it Christian and a ex,cop business man with no claim to religion.(Guess who I am voting for)The past two condo president (Christian fundamentist )have enforced the rules without any common sense,they have even gone as far as providing services to their crowd and ignoring the non religious,homo sexual couples and people of color,or ones that think outside the box .(I happen to be a professional Christian American Indian from the hills of Appalachian that passes as a white person)that is done with religion not Christ.
@ Godith:
I don’t think Tullian really believes any theology. I think he just does what he wants and says what gets him what he wants.
@ Ken G.:
I might recommend that you read another blog. I certainly wouldn’t want to destroy your happy world of lovely church people all doing the right thing.
Harley wrote:
Exactly. He is an expert at keeping multiple women on a string. He didn’t start doing this last year or the year before. TT has been doing this for a very long time.
Lea wrote:
Tullian would have never had a stage if it weren’t for the Graham name, which he has shamed. He would have never stayed on that platform if it weren’t for New Calvinist leaders who promoted him.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
If TT has to have a number of victims and/or roids, he isn’t much of a man, anyway.
OT but what WUT. WTH. Clown show in Charlotte…
https://www.facebook.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/posts/10155651113403782
Molly245 wrote:
Perhaps this is on topic after all…
https://m.facebook.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/posts/10155651113403782
Water lilly wrote:
I’m about 99 % white, but I love your moniker. Several generations back, I have a grandma whose name was Mildred Lily. Her sister’s name was White Lily. Their parents ….. Running Wolf and Autumn Rose ……. Appalachian all.
@ william wallace:
Tchividjian et al are discussing suffering, however, in contrast, the Biblical view of suffering, from 1 Peter 2: … 19 “For if anyone endures the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God, this is to be commended. 20 How is it to your credit if you are beaten for doing wrong and you endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.”
roebuck wrote:
If he is one of God’s (should that be a lower case g?) elect, what’s it matter how you behave and treat others. Diplomatic Immunity!
Ken G. wrote:
Better slam your Bible shut. You’d be shocked at the sexual sleaze and immorality in its pages.
roebuck wrote:
It’s called “Shanda fur die Goyim”.
roebuck wrote:
This has NOTHING to do with ‘grace’:
‘under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality’
what kind of theology cooked up THIS mess????
Just posted at Spiritual Sounding Board — Parts 1 and 2 of “Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story.”
This is an important, well-documented narrative from Rachel (her real name), with added background and links, but no excuses or minimizing her part in destructive consequences. Rachel states her reasons for going public with her story:
“Before I begin sharing my story, I want you, the reader, to understand my heart in coming forward with it. I have not made the choice to do so easily or without prayer and guidance over many months. I do not hate Tullian or wish to merely embarrass him or monstrify him to you. I do not seek revenge or my own vindication, to be heralded as a victim or excused for my sin.
“The reason I am choosing to be open and very vulnerable with you, is to highlight an example of how an abuse system was born and flourished inside the ranks of reformed evangelicalism. This story is a very public example of pastoral sexual abuse – something unfortunately prevalent in the church. It is also a case study in how our ways of doing church often promote someone with a narcissistic personality and cocoon him in a position that only feeds his pathology.
“The issues I hope to highlight are much bigger than Tullian Tchividjian, his victims, or one sector of the church. The details, though ugly, do matter so that you can piece together the true picture. That has been difficult because the internet is Tullian’s primary platform, and survivors usually have none. Much media attention has been given to this story, but Tullian’s internet spin can be analyzed alongside details of his covert activities during the same seasons he spoke publicly about his repentance. That’s why I’m being as specific as possible … so you can see and decide for yourself.”
Parts 1 and 2 share the unfolding history of her experiences. Two more posts in the series will be published later this week, with her process of repentance and recovery, and her thoughts of hope, encouragement, and challenge for various people swept up in clergy sexual abuse and/or spiritual abuse.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/29/survivor-of-tullian-tchividjians-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-goes-public-with-her-story-part-1/
Ken G. wrote:
Do you think it’s better to just ignore all the unpleasant stuff? Maybe read Tullian’s books for spiritual guidance, instead? Might as well join the “he can still be my pastor” group?
The people who are unaware of the things that are happening are sitting ducks for the unscrupulous.
But if anyone is squeamish, by all means, they can find some sand to stick their head in and pretend all is well.
Amy Smith wrote:
Is he drunk?
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I left a comment on that link.
Thanks for sharing the link, Brad
GMFS
And a happy St Andrew’s Day to dispersed Scots (and scotiophiles) everywhere.
Och aye the noo! *
* Said no Scottish person ever.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thank you, Nick, and a happy St Andrew’s Day to you!
GFSA
(Greetings from South Africa)
brad/futuristguy wrote (quoting from someone accurately identified as Rachel):
This is perhaps the most important point in any examination of any instance, alleged or proven, of one person’s mistreatment of another. The person targeted (I am avoiding the loaded term “victim”) is, first and foremost, an eyewitness to the events and must be allowed to give evidence. If they’re not, the truth cannot possibly be uncovered, and any grace or forgiveness extended to the perpetrator will be godless and shallow. (What exactly are we “forgiving” them for?)
An eyewitness of this kind is almost routinely attacked with a view to discrediting them personally, and thereby to discrediting their evidence. My own experience here points to two angles of attack – that’s my perspective, anyway, and other Wartburgers (whether regulars, lurkers or visitors) will have their own. But the two angles whereof I spake are:
“You’re bitter and vindictive” – the attack of accusation designed to incite onlookers to lose compassion for the eyewitness;
“You’re distressed and hurting” – the attack of pity designed to incite onlookers to lose respect for the eyewitness.
In both cases, the idea is to minimalise the eyewitness’s testimony and make it a petty and minor matter that concerns them only. That means it doesn’t concern me and I can get on with my life.
As Rachel states: the issues are much larger than one person.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And to you!
*my family has been ‘dispersed’ for 250 years and people constantly ask me if I’m Irish so not sure if it counts
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Indeed. This is a first hand source, in fact.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I am not that, but on behalf of the Campbells of Appalachia (of which descent in the third generation back on the maternal side is my daughter-in-law) I thank you.
It is to the Scots of Appalachia that we owe the great tradition of white lightning and the great tradition of NASCAR made famous by bootleggers who could outrun the revenuers on twisty mountain roads and that with a loaded vehicle. Illegal, yes, but none the less fine examples of independence and daring, and of course driving. St. Andrew must have been quite a guy.
Ken G. wrote:
I don’t know, Ken, maybe you’re into self-proclaimed Christian leaders who actively pursue national public ministries and followers, who write books extolling their wisdom and spiritual insight, who hold their brand of truth out there as something that Christians should emulate, all while sleazing around like Roman despots, splitting churches, destroying their children’s family life forever, enlisting the aid of sycophants and dupes to pray for the deaths of their family members.
Hey, maybe you’re the kind of guy who likes to not go after the person doing that stuff, the one who’s making the real money while acting sleazy, maybe your the type of guy who likes go after the people who expose that stuff, talking about them being the types who look for the “big money makers” (even though they don’t make a penny off of this–hey baby, as I said, the one cashing in is one Tullian.
I don’t know, Ken, but maybe you’re just the kind of guy who likes to support sleazy hypocrites while simultaneously ridiculing those who try to expose their hypocrisy and warn people against the,
Guess that’s just the way you roll.
Ken G. wrote:
The SLEAZE I was referring to was TT’s behavior, NOT TWW’s.
okrapod wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdwUpxkfSJw
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Well, I used to think we had Scottish blood on my mother’s side. At least that is what she told us.
My husband did the DNA test from Ancestry. com. I am pure Eastern European on my dad’s side (no surprise there.) However, my mother came out 50% Irish! She claims it isn’t right but it is. Then there is 20% Scandinavian which no one understands. So, I am trading in the tartan for a shamrock this year!
We also found out that on my mom’s side, there was a Parsons and it appear hubby and I are related to a Sir William Parsons in the 1500s.
So, with a certain fond sadness, I wish you are a Happy St Andrew’s Day.
@ Christiane:
This stuff is getting crazy. What is wrong with Tullian? To think I used to defend him.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Oops! Mea culpas!
dee wrote:
Viking Raiders, of course!
I’m supposedly part irish and part Scottish and part native American. Would love to do a DNA deal to see whether that is right. But the only thing I ever get accused of being is Irish. I guess green eyes + freckles = irish.
dee wrote:
I think we need to start becoming a LOT more suspicious of anyone who runs for the spotlight.
@ dee:
My son did that DNA thing and it did not come out like we thought–at all. He, it seems, is mostly English by a huge percentage-a way larger percentage than the base line of what they call English. Who knew? So I said what about the Irish and what about the French like the family told us and like the names when you check out the linguistics of the names? Who knows, but young son is mostly English by far. Of course the Irish and the French were on my side so maybe it all got diluted from his Daddy’s side, but I am afraid to have my DNA run because I like the family stories too much to let them go.
roebuck wrote:
I very much agree. I’m always fascinated by the version of “intelligence” that they possess in order to be able to be to be fully perceived as a Christian worker while upholding plans (aka “vision” and “mission”) that is intentional beyond the church goers’ wildest imagination.
Also, I want to thank Kara for sharing her story. I applaud the consistency you displayed in your interactions with Tullian.
okrapod wrote:
There are a few missing peices, but from what I’ve been able to learn about my ancestors, I’m Scottish, Irish, Swiss-German, and a tiny bit of American Indian. My mom was born in Appalachia and her family is of Scottish decent. My dad was born in Western Kentucky and is Irish with a little American Indian mixed in, and Swiss-German. White Lightnin’ and Methodist preachers run on both sides of my family.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Incredible hand break turns on some two lane mountain road may be mostly mythological, but I read a book written by a former ATF officer, and he said that the ATF mostly drank up the evidence when they could get at it. I am wondering if they did not not take some of the product in bribes.
@ Nancy2:
It is really odd. My former husband’s people were English in the maternal line and out on the plains of Illinois, but he thought his dad’s people were Irish and had changed their name during the early days of the Irish immigration since being Irish was a handicap. A lot of people did change their names, so that sounded about right. But the DNA does not show Irish. My folks, at least the stories go, were English and German and French and Irish. The French came here in the early nineteenth century so that evidence could be gone, but what happened to the German and the Irish.
DNA studies have shown that of the people who think that they know who their biological father was, 10% are mistaken. Somebody else was lurking behind the wood pile. So, well, just so. Mostly I don’t want to think about that too much.
I seem inadvertently to have started a thread-within-a-thread for St Andrew’s Day – slightly ironic since I am a first-generation immigrant and may have less Scots ancestry than many of you!
Whatever… 😉
slàinte mhath!
Lea wrote:
Well, I have both, though I’m not aware of any Irish ancestry. Actually, more grey-green than green.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m pretty sure he knew that, HUG. Ken G. seems like he believes pastor’s sins should not be divulged and people should not be warned to stay away from such men’s evil.
TT reminds me on a lesser scale of Tiger Woods…who didn’t face reality until his wife chased him out of the house with a golf club.
Like his granddad always said “Be sure your sin will find you out.”
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Hey me too. Maybe we’re related 🙂
I don’t think it means anything, I just think its funny. I had a professor who asked me I spoke gaelic!
old timer wrote:
Yep, you can be sure that your sin will find you out … not because Billy Graham preached it, but because God said it first! TT is reaping that truth right now. As the filth keeps streaming in, TT is quickly surpassing the transgressions of Tiger Woods. Coral Ridge should have chased Brother Tullian out of the church with a herd of golf clubs!
As I recall, James Kennedy’s daughter and a group tried to send Tullian packing shortly after he assumed the pastorate at Coral Ridge following Dr. Kennedy’s death. They complained that Tullian was watering down the Gospel message and was de-emphasizing evangelism which the church was known for. It appeared that this group of dissidents was wise to Tullian’s schemes to cheapen grace from the get-go. Unfortunately, Tullian idol-worshippers outnumbered them and they were cast out instead! Yep, TT will have a LOT to account for on judgment day.
Max wrote:
Which by the way are characteristics of New Calvinism. The preach grace, grace, grace … but it’s not Grace at all.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is a very insightful response, thanks @Nick [and a feastful St. Andrew’s Day to you!].
An important interaction from Facebook, with my friend Christy Sim who is Executive Director of Stronger Than Espresso, a non-profit dedicated to survivors of violence and abuse. I’m copying it here, as my Facebook posts are “Friends” not “Public.”
**Christy Sim** One thing… it starts off with the word “alleged” to describe victims. It’s a word we fight so hard against.
The word ‘alleged’ makes it sound fake. Instead we encourage the word “reported.” It gives the same intention without the weight of… “oh she ‘allegedly’ claimed to be raped. But no one believes her and we can’t prove it.” (That’s what we hear in ‘allegedly.”)…That it hasn’t been proven yet and it’s up for debate on if she’s full of crap.
We hope by changing the language people start thinking differently.
She “reported” gives the picture that she turned in her story. That’s what we want. She voiced her story. And we have no reason not to believe it.
**Brad** That is very, *very* helpful, Christy, and thank you for noting that for us. There are many issues with words that we agonize over in writing for and from spiritual abuse survivor communities. So it’s crucial to keep striving for terms that are more accurate, that are more supportive, and that don’t carry implications that minimize what’s being said or — even more so — those who are saying it. I’ve been writing on related issues, and case studies, and helping people share their story for nearly a decade, and still important things to learn …
**Christy Sim** Thank you for hearing me! I was so worried that I overstepped.
**Brad** I’m really glad you said what you did, Christy! We know that words have the power to crush or encourage. So we have to keep stretching ourselves to communicate better. It’s too important to ourselves as survivors, to the friends we support and advocate for, for those we seek to challenge for abuses and protecting abusers.
Thanks again, Dee and Deb, for providing TWW as a forum for sharing the reports of survivors, and resources that help us move forward …
I am very sad to read this. A couple of points:
1) As long as evangelicalism continues to promote the antichrist culture of celebrity pastorship, this kind of thing will keep happening.
2) Isn’t it interesting how he could preach pretty solid doctrine for years while behaving this way? Hopefully more Christians will wake up to the falsehood of paper doctrine.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Dr Fundy, I agree with your points, but I would like to nuance the second one a little bit. TT was called out for improper doctrine several times; his understanding of Luther was not entirely accurate and his view of grace was very similar to what we read recently about “hypergrace.” Therefore it seems that he failed to heed proper doctrine and continued to preach his version of the gospel to the tickled ears of many. As you well know, the Bible predicts this will happen with increasing frequency until the second advent of Jesus.
Burwell wrote:
Absolutely. Just deviant from the gospel enough to be lethal and just close enough to the gospel to slide under people’s radar. Hmmm, I wonder where he got that idea? The methodology does seem similar to a certain serpent of ancient fame.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Well, I wouldn’t accuse Tullian of preaching “solid doctrine.” His distorted grace message was based on the aberrations of New Calvinism. Tullian was not a gospel preacher, that’s for sure … and he certainly didn’t live the life of a called servant of God. Sure, his teachings were sprinkled with a little truth here and there, but it was framed in such a way to control and manipulate his followers, subtly replacing “Thus saith the Lord” with “Thus saith Tullian.” This is a New Calvinist technique which has produced a large following of Generation Xers and Millennials. It’s easy church appearing to be orthodox, while out to restore the “gospel” that the rest of us has lost … which is really “another gospel.”
Let’s revisit the opening quote to Dee’s post:
“Just because something isn’t a lie does not mean that it isn’t deceptive. A liar knows that he is a liar, but one who speaks mere portions of truth in order to deceive is a craftsman of destruction.” ― Criss Jami
Someone once said that heresy is an over-emphasis of a long-neglected truth. The New Calvinist grace, grace, grace message is full of half-truths, which at the end of the day is not Grace at all. It sounds good, because it is close. It is not solid doctrine. The Gospel Coalition, in endorsing Tullian, gave him a platform to reach untold numbers with New Calvinist lies and deception. The New Calvinist who’s-who will now distance themselves from TT, as they did with Driscoll and others who fell from the grace they didn’t really know. The devil is a liar and craftsman of destruction; the Lord Jesus is not. Believers don’t go to church expecting to be deceived (we are such a trusting bunch), but folks there’s so much junk in church you really need to pray for a new measure of discernment. When the red flags go up, get the heck out.
Molly245 wrote:
This.
okrapod wrote:
okrapod wrote:
You’re right on both counts! My Swiss-German side had the name changed several times due to spelling errors. Reiger has mutated into both Rager and Reager.
I have a g-grandfather who’s mother was never married. Rumor has it that her sister’s husband fathered her child. I also have a g-grandmother who was born out of wedlock. She never knew who her father was.
Both instances make it difficult, if not impossible, to trace ancestral lines.
I want to put out a prayer request to all for the people of the Gatlinburg, Tennessee area: Wildfires have destroyed multiple homes and businesses there. At least three have died as a result of the fires and many people only have the clothes on their backs. These people are in dire need of both material possessions and hope. Arson is suspected.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
…Who are they foolin’? Playin’ at rulin’
It’s the queen behind the scene who pulls the strings
So, in conclusion, it’s an optical illusion
If you think that we’re the weaker race
Men got the muscle, but the ladies got the hustle
And the truth is staring in your face…
— Song Lyrics by Rupert Holmes —
dee wrote:
Vikings spent a bunch of time & energy attacking the Irish coast back in the day. A lot of Scandinavian blood got mixed with the Celtic.
ION
The daily Aberdeen-Penzance train left Birmingham New Street on time, as it generally does, and then was held up for a significant while at a signal, as it always is – every day, without fail. It literally never reaches Cheltenham Spa on time.
Why, oh why, oh why, do “They” persist in publishing the aberrant and blatantly false timetable for this service, knowing that it will never be adhered to, ever?
I think we should be told.
IHTIH
okrapod wrote:
Just like Disinformation in Intelligence Warfare.
Nancy2 wrote:
I saw the fires on facebook, it looks terrible! But I hadn’t seen that arson was suggested.
The sad thing about Tullian is that it seems he was able to worm his way in with people simply because it *seemed* like he cared. This has become a rare thing. Sad commentary.
@ Water lilly:
LOL!! I could tell you stories about my condo association as well.
I can’t believe the part about anabolic steroids. If he is abusing steroids he is going to have health consequences and rage issues. When I played sports I heard rumors of differing people allegedly experimenting of trying steroids. That is some scary stuff.
Guys in light of Paul Tripp’s connections to this story what do you think of Paul Tripp?
This is why I am more to the edge of everything. I feel sick about the movement and the stuff I am seeing. I find Christians at times to be deceitful, and non Christians to be graceful and loving. I wrote a post at my blog the other day in which I said that you do not need God to be moral. When you see someone like TT teaching, publishing, etc… and doing this stuff it brings about a lot of questions and concerns. If TT is what someone who knows God acts like think of the moral atheist who is more compassionate and ethical. Evangelicalism is incredibly screwed up…
You know the other thing I keep noticing in these stories. The person who is hurt is trying to reconcile, correct and own their damage. The perpetuator often has no desire to do that at all. It leaves the hurt person stuck.
I just finished reading “Survivor of Tullian Tschividian Part 1 & 2 over at spiritual Sounding Board…
Paul Tripp comes into the narrative in a fairly unfavorable light, in fact violating a counselor confidentiality clause to post publically about Tullian’s marriage. (https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/08/26/is-paul-tripp-violating-counseling-code-of-ethics-in-releasing-statement-about-tullian-tchividjian/)
Mr. Tripp’s role seemed more to establish T. as the victim; a role T. seems to use frequently.
I remember Mr. Tripps role in the Mark Driscoll bus-wreck….
Just wondering about how impartial Mr. Tripp was in that mess also. I personally will not trust any of Mr. Tripp’s statements in the future.
Molly245 wrote:
Really? I’m not familiar with him besides what I’ve heard related to Tullian.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
The simple answer is that Tullian does not know god.
Paul Tripp was a member of the official Board of Advisors and Accountability for Mars Hill Church. For articles on how all that played out, check out two tags at Warren Throckmorton’s blog: “PAUL TRIPP” and “BOARD OF ADVISORS AND ACCOUNTABILITY.” If you go to this link, you’ll get a bunch of articles from the PAUL TRIPP tag, and at the bottom of some of the article summaries, you’ll find a link to the BOARD OF ADVISORS AND ACCOUNTABILITY tag.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/tag/paul-tripp/
It is the goal of The Wartburg Watch to bring specific instances of church abuse to light. Given the myriad of cases covered here each week, perhaps some inductive reasoning might suggest a more comprehensive view of what seems to be happening in the church in 2016, an attempt to tie all these reprehensible acts together. First, an aside: “…he had the courage to preach this message [of grace?] in a PCA church.” Pastor Tchividjian needed no courage to preach this message in a PCA church, for his “grace” emphasis, is predominant in large sectors of the PCA. Somewhat pejoratively labeled “the Grace Boys” by a more orthodox PCA pastor, Terry Johnson (see The Aquila Report, Oct. 4, 2011) and closely monitored and critiqued by a group of PCA pastors who make up the Gospel Reformation Network and have labelled this “grace speak” the Contemporary Grace Movement, Grace Boys rightly preach God’s love and forgiveness toward what they like to call “the broken.” Yet, because of their reluctance to use the S-Word (sin), their gospel is a truncated presentation that ultimately amounts to salvation by realization [of what Christ has done] not repentance for one’s sins.
If proponents go so far as to use the word repentance it is frequently amended by the qualifier “….repent of trying to do life without God.” Does scripture teach this odd kind of repentance? Pastor Tchividjian is a “Grace Boy.” His now defunct Liberate Conference was a meeting of said Grace Boys (and women too, mind you.) Whether his theology contributed to his problems is beyond the scope of this discussion and probably unknowable.
“Predatory men like Tullian Tchividjian rise to power precisely because the Evangelical church has created a system not only of patriarchy but a hierarchy of power prdicated on the submission…of women.” Yes…and no. The INSTITUTIONAL Church, both before and after the Reformation, has always been and continues to be a hierarchical system that is predicated on the submission of both female and male members.
“This creates a kyriarchel system by which a powerful “elect” group of oligarchs pursue power at the expense of an oppressed constituency.” I would suggest that the ecclesial term for “a powerful elect group of oligarchs” is CLERGY; the Biblical descriptor for “oppressed constituents” is LAITY. The phenomena we see each week on Wartburg Watch is referred to in scripture and ultimately explains every instance of abuse reported here. Christ addresses the churches through John in the book of Revelation….”Yet this do you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Rev. 2:6-7 NASB A simple translation from Koine Greek reveals a two part word: Nikao means “to conquor” Laos means “the people.” This is closely associated with the doctrine of Balaam from the Old Testament (mentioned in Rev. 2:14) another compound noun meaning “he swallows” and “people.” Nicolaitans and their Old Testament counterparts, Balaamites, are those who lord it over the people, conquor the laity. Christ tells John in Revelation that he hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans, a strong, direct, blunt assessment of what was already happening in the early church and continues to happen today. “But Jesus called them to Himself and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them and great men exercise authority over them. It is NOT THIS WAY AMONG YOU, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave.'” Matt. 20:25-27 NASB Can anyone reasonably describe the vast majority of pastors one has known as one’s servants or slaves? Furthermore, if the passage in Revelation is preached at all the going explanation is that scripture is unclear who the Nicolaitans were, what they taught, and what they did to warrant such a strong rebuke from Christ. So Christ gives a strong admonition with no clues anywhere as to exactly what he was talking about? Doubtful. A pastor teaching on this subject doing simple scripture research in preparation quite possibly might find that their very “position” within the “church” is called into question, that they very likely ARE the Nicolaitans spoken of in Revelation. The Institutional Church was created with a hierarchy between clergy and laity, a clear violation of Biblical principles from the beginning. Today, the Wartburg Watch still deals with effects of that mistake.
“It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” Gal. 5:1 NASB
@ Rhonda Montgomery:
Wow! Awesome comment. This definitely has post potential. Would you be interested in developing your idea further for a future post?
Molly245 wrote:
I am also concerned about this aspect of things. Since he made such a public to do about this, I wonder if it might be worth contacting him. If he refused to answer, that in itself is a post. Thoughts?
dee wrote:
I think he shows signs of being in crisis, yes ….. I wonder if he has ever taken steroids and if that might be a factor in some of his strange behaviors (?)
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Wasn’t Paul Tripp a speaker at some of TT’s “Liberate” conferences?
“He preached about owning one’s sin and “messiness,” yet to this day he continues to advance a narrative based not on confessing his serial abuses, but on hiding them. As Kara has observed, Tullian uses a message of “authenticity” and “realness” to keep his audience navel gazing, a move classically employed by abusive persons to blind their victims to the ways in which they are being exploited.”
There are a lot of people who think the right words are automatically equal right actions. It is a huge problem. Say the right platitudinal or Political correct things and that makes you a “good person”. People are so reluctant to be wise and see if words match actions. I think it is the realm of the ever present thought and speech police. And manipulators love it because they are good with words.
It is not “mean” or lacking “grace” to expect words and actions to have a pattern of matching. Narcissists and sociopaths are masters of this deception.
This is not new for Tullian. You don’t wake up one day and decide to be a master manipulator. It is just that some in his life decided to stop playing his game after he took it to a new larger stage at Coral Ridge. The recipe eventually did not work.
But one thing that helped him prolong it was his exaggerated and false law/grace dichotomy which attracted lot of people who did not realize they were being used by cheap grace as they escaped legalism. It is never “grace” to do wrong to and use others as a long time believer who should know better. And he had a pattern of that and a free will choice. Still does.
Ken G. wrote:
The sleaze here is TT. And I would imagine that plenty of people that have been negatively impacted by this… fellow, wish that it were just a tabloid story or soap opera episode. Or maybe a bad dream. Something they could wake up from, and get on with life without having to live with the chaos that TT brought into their world.
@ Rhonda Montgomery:
Great comment. I will only add that NT scripture seems to communicate that all true believers are “ministers” albeit with differing functions. They are even called “priests” in the Holy Priesthood. Believers are described saints, priests, ministers. That should give us a clue.
The institutional focus seems to have brought in a clergy/laity divide that was never meant to be. And I think that is exactly what Revelation is communicating with the problem of Nicolaitans taking over.
ION:
US Government cancels Easter Island due to First Amendment controversy
Scientists create genetically modified conspiracy theorists
UK weather to be privatised following Brexit
More to follow.
Nancy2 wrote:
In case you want to do some research, here’s the Wayback Machine (internet archive) link for LIBERATE, which ran from 2012-2015.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150411220947/http://liberate.org/
@ dee:
Dee I contacted Paul Tripp earlier this year. I worked on a letter and asked Rob Smith to look it over. I contacted him over his role in Mars Hill Seattle and he never responded. The reason why I contacted him is because Cru (formerly Campus Crusade for Christ) has a close and growing relationship with him. Paul Tripp is scheduled to be the main speaker at the Christmas conference I used to attend in Minneapolis known as TCX. In December 2017 he is the main speaker at the Cru winter conference in Greensboro, NC.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Thanks, Brad! What a web there is of all these ‘professional’ famous churchy people. I wasn’t really up on all this until this year, but it makes me even more appreciate the whole concept of being open and honest with the congregation. Even though I’ve switched denoms, I’m still Baptist at heart on this. [Although my Presbyterian church listed all the pastors salaries publically and got an affirmation vote, even though we have a session.] There is no reason for a pastors salary to be secret from the people who are paying it.
But I digress. I read the other story from Rachel and it was very well done. Everything she says sounds consistent with a certain type of man, and that type of man should never be in the pulpit.
I have posted a new update on the open discussion thread. Thank you.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-295908
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Lydia wrote:
Well, there is that out of the heart the mouth speaks thing. The problem is that people have public and private personas and they are not the same thing. And they are also just straight up liars. We are told to watch for those too, it’s not like lying isn’t mentioned in the bible.
One thing to come out of this that I am very interested in is this thing about his first pastors telling him not to tell Kim about his affairs. Someone mentioned the promise keepers also apparently taught that. I am wondering how many men are teaching these things to each other, and encouraging their fellow supposed Christians in the continuation of lies.
Lea wrote:
What did Promise Keepers teach in this regard? Did Promise Keepers teach people to keep affairs quiet?
Lea wrote:
Totally agree.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
As a P.S. to this comment, I wanted to be sure to pass along to you the link for StrongerThanEspresso. And if the name “Dr. Christy Sim” seems familiar, it may be because I’ve posted other times in TWW comments about her research work on recovery from violence and abuse, her summaries on the small percentage of sexual assault allegations that prove false, and other important writings.
Also, please check out StrongerThanEspresso’s “Holiday Healing” page. I believe what they’re doing offers an important opportunity for survivors to participate in some creative, concrete ways that help process feelings and experiences that often get wrapped up in the holiday season.
http://www.strongerthanespresso.com/
Max wrote:
Max, they preach grace for themselves. It takes a while to figure out the game.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Well mind you I’m a girl, and nobody is going to invite me to promise keepers or an accountability group. So I don’t know how true this is and if it is it’s unlikely they would put it on the front page.
But. Someone mentioned in one of the threads that they had a guy who was in an accountability group that told him it was enough to confess to them, he didn’t need to confess to his wife. He talked to his pastor who was like, no. That’s not right. Another person on another thread said they remembered saying something to that affect as well. I am curious about this because I genuinely don’t know how common this teaching is! But it seems to have been the buddy buddy system with the people Tullian supposedly told about his first affair.
Whether this is some sort of bro code nonsense or actual teaching is my question. I did try to read up on accountability groups and it seems they emphasize telling the group and telling god…I didn’t see anything about the righting of wrongs, ala AA. But I haven’t done full research at this point.
Lea wrote:
As in “Bros Before Hos”?
@ Lea:
And since there has been so much talk about slander and libel over at JA’s blog, let me say for the record that I know nothing personally about what promise keepers teaches and I’m not trying to slam them. I am genuinely interested if this is a rogue belief that infiltrated a few groups or if it was/is being taught in a widespread manner.
Lea wrote:
How widespread is this? Three possibilities:
1) Somebody setting up one of these groups got his signals crossed.
2) Group drifted into Bros Before Hos (nudge nudge wink wink). And may not have been the only one.
3) This is how Promise Keepers intended them (but keep it hush-hush)
@ dee:
Rhonda, thank you for a great comment! Great insight!
From my vantage point, you have accurately flagged what is going on in certain corners of the American church, and have rightfully flagged the core problem with the aberrant “grace” message as used by New Calvinists like Tullian. I could not agree more with your assessment that “because of their reluctance to use the S-Word (sin), their gospel is a truncated presentation.” TWW regulars will know that I have been “preaching” the same thing for a while in my input on various TWW articles.
When you say “Whether his theology contributed to his problems is beyond the scope of this discussion and probably unknowable”, I believe it is indeed related to this discussion and knowable. TWW continues to chronicle the link between New Calvinist belief and practice with many abuses we are seeing within this movement. The new twists and turns of “New” Calvinism are not classical Calvinist positions on many things related to doing church. The message and method of the new reformation have been altered to make it more “culturally relevant” and in the process cross boundaries of Biblical principles for authentic church.
I believe you are indeed correct to connect New Calvinist behavior with the “deeds of the Nicolaitans” as noted in the book of Revelation. I, too, have noted the similarity with this group that Jesus warned us about. The authoritarian nature of New Calvinist leadership puts an un-Biblical separation between pew and pulpit and does not recognize the individual priesthood of each believer. As TWW continues to chronicle, New Calvinist church leaders “lord over” the flock in an unhealthy way which is not in-line with New Testament teaching.
I so appreciate your comment. You have articulated what I have been sensing in my Spirit regarding the ails of the institutional church in America. We have drifted far from what Christ intended for the Body of Christ. May God forgive us all … and have mercy on the leaders who have abused His church.
Lydia wrote:
Grace only for the Predestined Elect/Highborn.
Law and Hellfire for the Lowborn.
@ Rhonda Montgomery:
Rhonda, my previous comment to Dee was really intended for you. Must have hit the wrong reply button!
Lydia wrote:
I’m RCC, and I have NEVER seen that wide a clergy/laity divide in the RCC.
We call that HERESY; specifically, the Heresy of Clericalism (very widespread in the Middle Ages).
Ever noticed the RCC seemed to shed that sort of hierarchy abuse when it had to relinquish its political power? Once they were out of the Game of Thrones, the Church could actually act as a moral beacon and conscience and gained much more actual influence. (Remember, a lot of these Neo-Cals are also after Political Power, on the scale of the Borgia Popes. What does that imply?)
Max wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVDEL_HeKq0
Lea wrote:
Even sadder is that narcissists and sociopaths are masters of “caring”. Masters of The right words. The right body language and ability to mirror others in communication for personal gain. They reek compassion and understanding and even humility. It is scary when you figure it out. And that can take years.
Lea wrote:
especially if these ‘types’ are in free fall ….. the instability of these men in their personal crises is not something a congregation needs in their faith community, not as a leader, no
and especially if these men in crises show signs of being predatory …. once that is exposed, any congregation that embraces the person in crisis as a ‘leader’ is already on notice as to what they are getting …. is a big name worth the suffering some will eventually endure because of the instability of the ‘famous’ person???
out-of-control egos will reek destruction in the lives of those they ‘use’ ….. they don’t need to be placed where they can do the most harm to the most people, no
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Some might see a huge palace, fancy special clothes and strict duties for sacraments for specific titles as a wide divide. Why not sell off some icons or art for the poor? Why the need for a palace while lecturing others about the world’s poorest?
Even in the local parishes many priests molested childreb and then were sent somewhere else where the crime was brushed under the rug because they were priests. I doubt they would do that for a pew sitter. A huge divide.
I am just as hard on all the wealthy “Jesus” institutions, especially mega churches, so please don’t be offended. The Catholic Church is not exempt from words not matching actions. I cannot figure out why it should be?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
great comment, HEADLESS
instead of ‘those fearsome nuns’ I grew up with, I had strong women models who repeatedly encouraged us to ‘apply yourself’ to the tasks we faced in life ….. not the same as people who made us ‘dependent’ on them, no. They empowered us, often by their own examples, and I for one honor those good women for their gifts of encouragement. Sure, we all joked and complained about the fierce Sister Ruth, or the demanding Sister Mary Grace, but the truth is that we were proud of them and understood that they had given up the attractions of ‘this world’ for something much ‘more’. They put some backbone into us kids and made us believe in ourselves. We understood the meaning of ‘respect’. That is not an easy accomplishment in today’s world, no.
Max wrote:
Grace ‘changes’ everything. So it is true that those neo-Cal folk who excuse continuing to sin as ‘okay’ because ‘you are forgiven’ …. these men are not talking about real ‘grace’, no.
For myself, I found a fairly good definition (if you can call it that) of ‘grace’, this:
““I do not understand the mystery of grace — only that it meets us where we are and does not leave us where it found us.”
(Annie Lamott)
Paul Tripp was a featured speaker:
http://2013.liberatenet.org/tullian-tchividjian/
Thank you, Dee and everyone else,for your kind responses. I am old school and have to write my thoughts out on paper, mull them over for awhile, tweek the structure of sentences, then hopefully come up with something understandable. I urge everyone to check out the Aquila Report I cited by Terry Johnson in 2011 as well as the resources on the Gospel Reformation Network in order to more fully understand this grace movement thing. Although I do not fully agree with all of the pastors who are equally as concerned about this movement, they are paying attention to the aberrations and are trying to warn the flock they minister to. For that, I am grateful. You can email me anytime you wish.
@ Lydia:
the Priesthood of all believers is a beautiful idea, is it not?
Christiane wrote:
A little momento for Sr Ruth and Sr Mary Grace from classic Dr Demento:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8Ywo88wTKI
Lydia wrote:
Until the instant you outlive your usefulness.
@ Max:
Greetings friend. I, of course, believe that TT’s theology did not help his propensity to sin in the ways he has done so. Because I believe that what he preaches is a false gospel that cannot save, it leaves its adherants powerless over the sin in their lives. To be told that you are a Christian when there has been no repentance to speak of is a terrible lie. Satan has done an amazingly cunning job here. This has “the appearance of Godliness” but denies its (ultimate) power to change one’s life.
Rhonda Montgomery wrote:
I think this is maybe a chicken/egg thing, though. He was attracted to this theology, because it enabled him to act as he wished. IMO.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes. I’m quite curious how much is intentional and how much comes from the ‘confess to your group’ plus ‘your group should be all male’ plus whatever brocade nonsense got filtered through. Because if you confess to a group of men who won’t rat you out, no consequences. If you confess to your wife? Consequences. You can see which one would be more appealing.
@ Nancy2:
and in 2015 my (former) pastor who shall remain nameless…the one who will not be named
Rhonda Montgomery wrote:
… Voldemort was your pastor?
I’ll see myself out…
Rhonda Montgomery wrote:
I cling to it! It was drilled into our heads as children. I am now so grateful for that.
Lea wrote:
Yes. Grace does not negate right and wrong. The Grace movement Rhonda speaks of presents a Jesus Who is perpetually obeying for us because we can’t help but do wrong to others. Makes church very unsafe. I do think people should be warned.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My guess is he became the plate spinner at Coral Ridge with all the deception.
Theopedia is, of course, biased as is everything, but I found this article interesting and pertinent to the current conversation about the Nicolaitans.
http://www.theopedia.com/nicolaitans
Lydia wrote:
And then it changed ………..
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Arresto Momentum!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Father this, Sister that, Brother this, Mother that ….. no wonder we see our clergy as ‘family’, which we do 🙂
Rhonda Montgomery wrote:
WHERE did this teaching come from ????
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Without the separation of church and state, every religion goes in this direction.
Rhonda Montgomery wrote:
Amen! Dietrich Bonhoeffer called such theology a pursuit of “cheap grace.” He put it this way: “Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance.” Bonhoeffer said “Cheap grace is to hear the gospel preached as follows: ‘Of course you have sinned, but now everything is forgiven, so you can stay as you are and enjoy the consolations of forgiveness.'” I actually heard a young, restless and reformed “pastor” at a church plant near me say in a sermon “There is one prayer a Christian does not have to pray ‘Jesus, forgive me of my sins.'” This was Tullian’s theology and a characteristic of New Calvinism. The grace message of the new reformers is not gospel truth.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, those old Southern Baptists who planted “Priesthood of the Believer” doctrine into your soul were right to do so … it is gospel truth! Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part! Of course, the authoritarian New Calvinists who are taking over the Southern Baptist Convention don’t want you to know that each believer is free in Christ, that his soul is competent before God to hear His voice without it being filtered through the pulpit.
Max wrote:
if someone wants to call themselves a ‘Christ-follower’, then they learn from His prayer, this ‘and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us’
‘go, and sin no more’ is another command of Our Lord, so the idea of CONTINUING to sin is not from the Mind of Christ, no
A Christian will seek earnestly to be conformed to the Mind of Christ in how to faithfully live out this Earthly journey, but it does appear that the poor neo-Cal YRR pastor described, has lost his way and is leading others astray also, yes
But HOW did he get it so wrong????
I was listening to a local christian radio station this morning that does Christmas songs all season along with ads and small talks. One of them, I had to turn off immediately. Couldn’t bear to listen to it. My daughter said it was The Piper style of preaching, etc. Made me sick.
In my opinion, Tullian thinks that ok, I asked Christ to forgive my sins once a long time ago, now because of Grace I am free to do whatever I want. I can have affairs, I can do things to my body that are wrong, but it is all ok, because it’s covered under God’s grace. I think a lot of people think this way.
I read the post on Spiritual Sounding Board this morning. In the post it points out the Tullian was thinking about other women even when he was going to seminary and married to Kim. Like I said before, this wasn’t his first rodeo by far.
@ Max:
@ Rhonda Montgomery:
The interesting part is that the Gospel Reformation Network is YRR (see http://www.gospelreformation.net/blog/post/how-the-gospel-conquers for a great picture of a well-known YRR leader). Ligon Duncan (Buddy of CJ Mahaney, Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and other notable YRRs), is one of seven members listed on the GRN site. If YRRs are advocating both for and against hyper-grace, then it is a house divided.
I think one of the best passages in the Bible for what grace is supposed to look like is from Titus 2:
@ Max:
@ Rhonda Montgomery:
I messed up the blockquotes and also somehow put my comment into customs, so I’ll try this again.
The interesting part is that the Gospel Reformation Network is YRR (see http://www.gospelreformation.net/blog/post/how-the-gospel-conquers for a great picture of a well-known YRR leader). Ligon Duncan (Buddy of CJ Mahaney, Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and other notable YRRs), is one of seven members listed on the GRN site. If YRRs are advocating both for and against hyper-grace, then it is a house divided.
I think one of the best passages in the Bible for what grace is supposed to look like is from Titus 2:
If a person’s view of grace does not have this effect then it is not grace, it is disgrace.
Ken F wrote:
TT is doing the exact opposite.
Ken F wrote:
Amen Ken! The New Calvinist movement has misplaced Grace. There is very little evidence in the new reformation that it is producing righteousness, godliness, and Christlikeness in its teachers and their followers.
Part #3 in the series on Rachel’s story has been posted at Spiritual Sounding Board. In this post, Rachel shares “My Process of Repentance and Recovery (Spring 2015 Onward) and My Message for Those Drawn Into Clergy Sexual Misconduct: There is Help and Hope for Us!”
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/29/survivor-of-tullian-tchividjians-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-goes-public-with-her-story-part-3/
Christiane wrote:
At the time I knew the young man, he was a dedicated follower of macho potty-mouth Mark Driscoll. That might have contributed to his aberrant belief and practice.
Lydia wrote:
When my mother was on hospice prior her death I found people who demonstrated what real caring was. The people from hospice would come at all hours to assist, didn’t preen about having a servant attitude. They simply came, helped, and didn’t expect publicity and credit for doing so. I was deeply appreciative. It is wonderful to come across people who truly know how to serve and don’t put up a big banner “look at me, look at me”.
These narcissistic pastors don’t even come close to real caring.
Rhonda Montgomery wrote:
Clement of Rome, roughly 90AD
“it behooves us to do all things in [their proper] order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. … For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.”
Agreed, it started from the beginning.
@ Bill M:
I know we are not real fond of quoting scripture here but I think Matthew 6 describes the people who cared for your mom:
Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
We WILL know these quiet unsung saints one day. I am convinced of it.
I be thinking you anything he preaches at Mark Driscolls church soon…
@ Max:
Yes. Priesthood of believer AND soul competency.
Requires personal responsibility, you know. Not someone else absolving or holding keys. So unfashionable, it seems.
Should say I bet you anything…Robin C wrote:
@ okrapod:
I read an interesting debate on both views a long time ago by some scholars. What was interesting is that both views presented had validity and were based on the same things. One seemed to think it was a more organized and formalized group than the other. I wish I had a link.
Christiane wrote:
A lack of belief in free will.
Hopefully folks can understand why I find this Dear Abby column at least partially relevant to the Tullian drama:
Dear Abby: He’s a womanizer, but I want him to myself
http://chicago.suntimes.com/lifestyles/dear-abby-hes-a-womanizer-but-i-want-him-to-myself/
There are women out there who actually are okay with dating a cheater. This one is hoping Mr. Cheater will settle down with her exclusively.
Bill M wrote:
technically, there was no ‘bible’ (New Testament) in 90A.D.
Instead, there was the ‘oral’ tradition where often the ways of praying connected the infant Church together (and still, this can be seen in how these ‘ways of praying’ came out from Jerusalem to the first centers of Christianity. Clement (circa 90 A.D.) was written about by Tertullian, Jerome, and Eusebius; but these men wrote about him based on the information in the oral tradition of the Church. There are quite a few writings attributed to Clement of Rome which are spurious, so it is best to be cautious about what is his work.
How often I see people writing about the early Church as though it had a fully-organized New Testament to guide it; but it did not in those early days. And yet it was unified in how it prayed, and the prayers and liturgies in all the main centers of Christianity shared what had been brought out to them from the Apostles in Jerusalem. Many of the liturgical prayers of the Church were written down and found their way into sacred Scripture and were, in fact, evidence, used by the Councils, to determine which of the many ‘books’ extant at the time did actually belong in the canon of the New Testament.
Lydia wrote:
This makes sense. Strange that they would hold God to be a monster who created people, didn’t give them any internal locus of guidance, and then condemned them to hell for all eternity ….. I never understood this way of thinking. It seems so extremely heretical.
Daisy wrote:
Or has her own unresolved problems with having a truly trusting, intimate relationship.
You have to wonder what HER story/family history is all about.
When the papers had first made charges against Elmer, Cleo had said furiously, “Oh, what a wicked, wicked lie -darling, you know I’ll stand back of you!” but his mother had crackled, “Just how much of this is true, Elmy? I’m getting kind of sick and tired of your carryings on!”
Now, when he met them at Sunday breakfast, he held out the telegrams, and the two women elbowed each other to read them. “Oh, my dear, I am so glad and proud!” cried Cleo; and Elmer’s mother -she was an old woman, and bent; very wretched she looked as she mumbled, “Oh, forgive me, my boy! I’ve been as wicked as that Dowler woman!”
But for all that, would his congregation believe him? If they jeered when he faced them, he would be ruined, he would still lose the Yorkville pastorate and the Napap. Thus he fretted in the quarter-hour before morning service, pacing his study and noting through the window -for once, without satisfaction -that hundreds on hundreds were trying to get into the crammed auditorium.
His study was so quiet. How he missed Hettie’s presence!
He knelt. He did not so much pray as yearn inarticulately. But this came out clearly: “I’ve learned my lesson. I’ll never look at a girl again. I’m going to be the head of all the moral agencies in the country -nothing can stop me, now I’ve got the Napap! -but I’m going to be all the things I want other folks to be! Never again!”
He stood at his study door, watching the robed choir filing out to the auditorium chanting. He realized how he had come to love the details of his church; how, if his people betrayed him now, he would miss it: the choir, the pulpit, the singing, the adoring faces.
It had come. He could not put it off. He had to face them. Feebly the Reverend Dr. Gantry wavered through the door to the auditorium and exposed himself to twenty-five hundred question marks. They rose and cheered -cheered -cheered. Theirs were the shining faces of friends.
Without planning it, Elmer knelt on the platform, holding his hands out to them, sobbing, and with him they all knelt and sobbed and prayed, while outside the locked glass door of the church, seeing the mob kneel within, hundreds knelt on the steps of the church, on the sidewalk, all down the block.
“Oh, my friends!” cried Elmer, “do you believe in my innocence, in the fiendishness of my accusers? Reassure me with a hallelujah!”
The church thundered with the triumphant hallelujah, and in a sacred silence Elmer prayed:
“O Lord, thou hast stooped from thy mighty throne and rescued thy servant from the assault of the mercenaries of Satan! Mostly we thank thee because thus we can go on doing thy work, and thine alone! Not less but more zealously shall we seek utter purity and the prayer-life, and rejoice in freedom from all temptations!”
He turned to include the choir, and for the first time he saw that there was a new singer, a girl with charming ankles and lively eyes, with whom he would certainly have to become well acquainted. But the thought was so swift that it did not interrupt the pæan of his prayer:
“Let me count this day, Lord, as the beginning of a new and more vigorous life, as the beginning of a crusade for complete morality and the domination of the Christian church through all the land. Dear Lord, thy work is but begun! We shall yet make these United States a moral nation!”
“Elmer Gantry” by Sinclair Lewis
Bill M wrote:
There’s a common factor between this and the Young Reformed Rebellion. Both push a disembodied love of “godly order” which gives rise to believing that:
Everybody’s first duty is not to love, but to know their place
And I’d better make sure I keep them in their place
Because it’ll all descend into chaos unless we impose ruthless control
Contrast this with Jesus, who worked tirelessly towards the day when he need no longer call his disciples “servants”, because a servant doesn’t know his master’s business. What the young and rebellious have never grasped is that, when everybody is taught first of all to love, and to follow as leaders only those who set an example in putting others first, the system is actually stable.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
“But then WE CAN’T HOLD THE WHIP!!!!!”
Daisy wrote:
I know. I’ve seen it in action, except it was an abuser instead of a cheater.
All I can figure it’s some variant of Harley Quinn Syndrome.
Christiane wrote:
Predestination of the Elect.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Not actually that bad an analogy, considering some of the Pastors(TM) who end up being covered here.
“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
— He Who Must Not Be Named
Burwell wrote:
Nah. There is a deep and wide spectrum of belief in the history of Christianity, and Tullian was very orthodox. Nothing he taught caused the conservative Presbyterian denom of his to worry. That wasn’t my point, of course, but it stands on its own.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Indeed. But control freaks will never grasp that.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It didn’t take very long to get from what Jesus said to what the 90AD followers believed and taught. The need for control/order is quite strong in many people. We clearly see it in churches today as well.
Lydia wrote:
It only became “unfashionable” in SBC ranks because New Calvinists on the revision committee of the Baptist Faith and Message successfully diminished long-standing Baptist (and Biblical) doctrines of priesthood of the believer and soul competency.
Just as the 501(c)(3) IRS non-profit regulation bribed the pulpit from speaking in the public arena, BFM2000 will eventually silence the pew from sharing what God is saying to them. Southern Baptist preachers no longer emphasize the doctrines of a free church. New Calvinists now hold the keys to the SBC kingdom.
Robin C wrote:
And Mirele, TWW’s watchman on the wall in Phoenix, will greet him with an appropriate sign.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
This is why we are to follow Christ, not Apostles. We don’t have an indwelling Peter or Paul. Most put Paul’s words or Peter as tradition above Jesus Christ.
I can also look to early church fathers to better understand historical context but beyond that it seems we start running into the same problems we see today with control issues.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Which when first published garnered the following reaction:
On publication in 1927, Elmer Gantry created a public furor. The book was banned in Boston and other cities and denounced from pulpits across the United States.[4] One cleric suggested that Lewis should be imprisoned for five years, and there were also threats of physical violence against the author. Evangelist Billy Sunday called Lewis “Satan’s cohort”.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Gantry
Bridget wrote:
Tolkien made some interesting observations on the corrupting effect of a misguided desire for order, and the way in which it leads to a desire for power and control. He fleshed out these observations in his writing of the character of Sauron.
Sauron’s origins don’t appear in any of the films and are only briefly hinted at in the book (at one point, the character of Elrond observes that “…nothing is evil in its beginning. Even Sauron was not so.”). But in subsequent letters and other writings, Tolkien stated that Sauron was inherently turned towards building and structure, and to begin with, at worst, loved this for its own sake and pursued it in the service of others. But he never loved others, and over time he became convinced that others were not of value in themselves but, instead, were a threat to the order he so prized. To begin with, he may have sought power over others “for their own good”, but this did not last, and he began to despise and hate others as weak and incapable beings who were unworthy to be trusted to express their own natures and needed to be ruled over.
Of course, Sauron does not directly illustrate anything in himself because “he” is fictitious. But the character does mirror a lot of people and movements who are not, necessarily, psychopathic and do not start out with the deliberate intention of enslaving and controlling others. The Shepherding Movement is a good case in point. I don’t believe the “Fort Lauderdale Four” ever set out with the goal of creating such a monster. But I also don’t believe they set out to strengthen and promote love. The monster was inevitable.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
From Lawful Neutral through Lawful Stupid into Lawful Evil.
Lydia wrote:
Luther and Erasmus went round’ and round’ on this. Luther contended (along with Calvin) that humans are so sullied by Adam’s imputed guilt at the fall of humankind, that it’s impossible for them to choose goodness in and of themselves, and that only the Almighty can authorize any real goodness out of humans.
Which is probably how the popular evangelical meme …Even on my best days, the ‘good’ that I do is not good enough because of my ‘sin’… evolved.
In my opinion, Erasmus won the day in this ‘grace’ debate. He wrote that grace
simply helps humans come to a knowledge of God and supports them as they use their free will to choose between good and evil — choices which are ultimately their own and not preordained or interfered with.
There seem to be similar authoritarian movements to the neo-Cals in other churches, too.
For instance, the Greek Orthodox Church in the USA is currently undergoing an Ephraimite problem. The Ephraimites sure sound a lot like neo-Cals, don’t they?
http://gotruthreform.org/what-is-an-ephraimite
dee wrote:
I definitely think this is worth investigating. Mr. Tripp positions himself as an amazing counselor with superior spiritual insights. But…..on closer investigation it seems to me that he is instead positioning himself as someone ‘in the know’ with Famous Christian Men……Too much ego stroking going on IMO
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Re: Elmer Gantry quotation…..
Eerily frightening and deja vu all over again….Makes me ill to read it.
But thank you for posting this; it should be required reading!!
@ Muff Potter:
I found this. It is the Catholic Archbishop of San Francisco explaining what the Catholic Church teaches about free will, conscience and moral choices. It is not very cut and dried, actually, but it is interesting. He was contesting as incorrect understanding of Catholic teachings something Nancy Pelosi had said about free will.
I gather from this that the CC believes that people have free will to choose between good and evil but that does not mean that they can choose for themselves what constitutes good and what constitutes evil. Apparently the CC also says that people have an innate conscience, but the conscience must be trained to recognize between good and evil from scripture and the teachings of the church, and that moral choices are there to be made but that an appeal to free will and/or conscience does not justify wrong moral choices.
So in short, and if I understand what he is saying, there are free will and conscience and moral choices, but the choices themselves are limited. To me this looks like a middle position on these issues.
@ okrapod:
Oops. Forgot the link.
http://www.catholic-sf.org/news_select.php?id=56744
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Back when she was one of Houston’s “10 hot singles,”
http://houston.culturemap.com/news/city-life/03-14-13-houstons-most-eligible-bachelors-and-bachelorettes-10-hot-singles-to-heat-up-your-march/#slide=0
she said she was attracted to men with white teeth. So there’s that.
@ okrapod:
Did you get the impression he was really speaking of free will and abortion?
@ Lydia:
He used that as a jumping off place certainly. I got the impression however that he used that as a way to discuss the general church teachings on free will and conscience. Maybe I got that impression because that is what I had heard before in RCIA some 15 years ago, but the Church is apparently becoming more liberal so these issues may be as they say ‘in the eye of the beholder’ I am thinking.
okrapod wrote:
In my own Christian ‘formation’, I was trained to do the following before making a moral decision using my conscience:
1. To consider what the Church teaches regarding the morality/immorality of an issue
2. To examine the reality of my own personal circumstances
3. To pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance.
4. To finally examine my own ‘informed’ conscience and to make the best choice I can, ALL things considered.
The truth is we believe we ARE answerable to God for what we choose to do and for what we fail to do. But there is no ‘blind’ obedience going on either. Our gift from God of reason is not to be ignored when we examine our own circumstances, so we are asked to take our own personal situations and factor them into making moral decisions, yes. So much for ‘lock-step’. In the end, if we follow the steps that the Church recommends, we can pretty much rely on making a good moral decision that we can be at peace with in our consciences, and yes there will be times when we won’t be in sync with the way others think we should be,
but that is because we weren’t made to be identical, and the Church can offer us guidance, but it cannot make our conscientious decisions for us, no.
It’s complicated? Not if you have been raised in it. But it is never easy.
Does it work? Yes. Yes, it does work for good.
One interesting comment about moral ‘conscience’ that seems a bit easier for novices to digest:
“re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul”
(Samuel Clemens, a.k.a. ‘Mark Twain’)
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
@ MidwesternEasterner on Thu Dec 01, 2016 at 01:50 PM
I’ve heard accounts of terrible abuse within these monasteries.
An example: (posted in February 2013)
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2013/01_02/2013_02_14_Kalmoukos_ParentsOf.htm
“Murphy [attorney for the parents] wrote aˆThe death of the Nevins’ only son can be
directly attributed to the more than **six years of horrific physical and psychological abuse** he endured at St. Anthony’s. The methodology used by the monastery’s leadership, Archimandrites Ephraim and Paisios, fits every criterion used by the mental health community to identify a group which engages in the destructive practice of thought reform
…. Scott sustained severe emotional trauma as a direct result of the Archimandrites Ephraim and Paisio’s (sic) coercive tactics and practices, and the harm continued to affect Scott Nevins after he fled from St. Anthony’s Monastery in February of 2011.
Scott Nevins’ death could have been prevented had either Metropolitan Gerasimos or Archbishop Demetrios responded to the Nevins’ pleas to remove Scott from the monastery and provide him with the help necessary to recover from the destructive practices he encountered at St. Anthony’s.”
When you crossbreed Gnostics (“He Who KNOWS Things”) with the Lure of the Inner Ring…
Molly245 wrote:
(Illuminati…)
Muff Potter wrote:
Erasmus is considered the founder of the Humanist movement.
Lea wrote:
She probably thinks she can tame him. He will make an exception for her, and remain true and faithful to her.
I kind of posted something about this the other day in this thread:
– – – – – –
Dear Abby: He’s a womanizer, but I want him to myself
http://chicago.suntimes.com/lifestyles/dear-abby-hes-a-womanizer-but-i-want-him-to-myself/
There are women out there who actually are okay with dating a cheater. This one is hoping Mr. Cheater will settle down with her exclusively.
@ Christiane:
Let me again say, that looks like a middle position which avoids either extreme. What we protestants see from the outside, unfortunately, is some catholics all over the place between what looks like strict legalism on the one hand and do-your-own-thing on the other. The middle ground, as I have also said before is difficult to practice and difficult to defend sometimes.
@ Daisy:
Daisy, I think I may have been confused and it was actually a year later they got married, but still, he was apparently with her at the time…
Daisy wrote:
This is obviously true. And I know people who have done so, gotten married and are still happily married 20 years later. Maybe everybody just hopes it will be like that. I don’t think love is always rational.
@ Christiane:
That would be Saint Samuel of Missouri? Delightful man. We went to Hannibal when we were in MO, just to say we had-not too much there but it is interesting
okrapod wrote:
I don’t see how this is different from any other free will belief.
okrapod wrote:
I’m not sure whether conscience needs to be trained…We do know some have no conscience or it is ‘seared’, is that what they’re talking about? I’m not sure.
bluepoint wrote:
Onto Stacie, ‘white teeth’ is the lamest thing to be attracted to. Come on, girl.
okrapod wrote:
agreed 🙂
Christiane wrote:
And never, ever, listen to Pap and Injun Joe!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I have been laughing at your comment all day long wondering how to respond…..
…..a Freudian Slip perhaps….
@ Dave (Eagle):
“what do you think of Paul Tripp?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i can’t get past that mustache….
dee wrote:
I am a native Scot and many of us have Irish ancestors, especially the Catholics. During the Potato Famine many Irish went to ship building centers – Liverpool, Boston, New York, and Glasgow. It’s the reason supporters of my football team, Glasgow Celtic, sing Irish rebel songs. So many of them are Irish in their backgrounds. SO, it’s quite possible your mom and the DNA test are both right.
@ one of the little people:
And their is a lot of Scandinavian ancestry in Scotland. Up in the North they still have some Norse place names and festivals. Hope that helps.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Combine this with a crop of Narcissist pastors and you get a pretty toxic brew.
** BREAKING NEWS ** The following notice from Willow Creek Church was posted at approximately 11:30 PM (Eastern Time) Thursday, December 1st, on Warren Throckmorton’s blog:
Statement: Former Church Says Tullian Tchividjian Should Not Be in Ministry
Willow Creek Church employed Tullian Tchividjian from August 2015 until March 2016. Mr. Tchividjian was fired when a second incident of his sexual misconduct while a pastor came to light that he had failed to disclose since May 2014, except to at least three men who kept his sin private: Steve Brown, and two men who were elders at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church where Mr. Tchividjian had previously been Senior Pastor.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/12/01/statement-former-church-says-tullian-tchividjian-not-ministry/
** RACHEL’S OPEN LETTERS + EDITORS’ PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS FOR MINISTRY **
Rachel concludes with Part #4 in the Spiritual Sounding Board series with her story. It includes her open letters to Tullian Tchividjian, and to those who have been promoting/protecting his platform.
This post also includes practical suggestions for working with the range of different kinds of individuals who have been harmed in this situation – survivors who are trying to piece together their understanding of what happened to them, those who feel betrayed/lied to dealing with “cognitive and emotional dissonance,” and those seeking justice and restoration.
A follow-up post is expected soon, due to the breaking news of a statement from Tullian Tchividjian’s former ministry employers at Willow Creek Presbyterian Church.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/27/survivor-of-tullian-tchividjians-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-goes-public-with-her-story-part-4/
@ brad/futuristguy:
Thanks for sharing! I think Willow Creek made a mistake with Tullian but they seem to get it now, and I’m happy to see that.
Warrens blog has one guy with the usual ‘it’s totally ok, because david’ arguments, but I tuned him out when he started ranting for paragraphs about Bathsheba’s sin. *eyeroll*
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Sounds like the Orthodox Christian equivalent of Islam’s Wahabi.
@ okrapod:
Thanks for the link okrapod. What the Archbishop laid out is pretty much where I’m at too, even though I’m not Catholic. As a side note, I’m staunchly anti-abortion, much to the chagrin of my liberal and progressive colleagues. But on the other hand, I went door to door with two Catholic grad students to get the vote out to try and defeat California’s prop. 8 (anti-gay-marriage) initiative.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
As you probably know, Humanism and Christianity are considered by many to be incompatible and therefore mutually exclusive.
Just last week I heard Raul Rees (a calvary chapel big gun) launch into a spirited rant against humanism on the radio.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
“Submit to the leadership” thus propagating the system that attracts and breeds abusers so it continues. They are blind guides.
@ Bill M:
Agreed. One wonders if he was even a ‘member’ of either church which hired him, and for all we know he may have “joined” some new one already. We do know that shortly before that church hired him, he was officially defrocked. BUT they hired him anyway and thought it was all ok because they’re in a different presbytery and he wasn’t officially a pastor or elder but rather a “ministry director” or some such. And later statements indicated his purpose while there was not to work on behalf of the flock, but a little paid R&R.
The way in which Pastor Labby and his fellow Willow Creek leadership leaders might be able to lead other leaderships in the church as a whole would be: Write and post an introspective article about how they ran, not walked into being hoodwinked by TT because he was a celebrity, by whom they hoped to gain wallets in pews — or whatever insights their introspection has provided. This might actually serve as a warning to other leaderships, as The Animals sang, “not to do what I have done”.
Dave A A wrote:
This. This is what I’m looking for from all the people who were fooled, and judgey about it. Think about why you accepted Tullian. Think about why you didn’t see it, when it was right there in front of you.
I have all kinds of sympathy for people who were fooled by skilled liars. But once you know, look back and see what you did wrong. Because if you’re answer is just ‘whoops I was wrong, oh well’ then you have learned nothing. Just like ‘whoops, I cheated (a whole bunch of times) my bad is not true repentance.
As an aside, I find Tweeter extremely hard to “follow”, but I do follow 1 Tweeterer– Pastor Jared C Wilson (might have been on accident}. He’s tweeeted some really bad stuff in the past. But today, Wilson has twittered some good things about the TT situation, which I see came to the attention of Julie Anne and Dee. He went rounds with another pastor, who pulled virtually every possible cheap grace trick out of his bag.
@ Lea:
Something like this from the Coral Ridge church, where he was for several years, would be helpful as well.
Muff Potter wrote:
Real kicker when you consider Humanism started out as a CHRISTIAN movement; trying to restore balance at a time of over-spiritualization, dualism, and worm theology.
I know of Raul Rees. In the Eighties he was known for rabid anti-Catholic rants over Christian AM radio. And I mean RABID. As in Hislop, Boettner, Mystery Babylon Religion, Nimrod/Semiramis/Tammuz, everyting except Alberto Rivera and Maria Monk (and he might have quoted them when I wasn’t tuned in).
And a single tag line whenever anyone tried to reason with him in any way:
“Show Me SCRIPTURE!”
There is a reason why I claim that Calvary Chapel distills down and concentrates all the ways Born-Agains can sgo sour.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There’s a Wikipedia article on Christian humanism. Chesterton is mentioned as a leading proponent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism
Dave A A wrote:
The fact that they are flawed is indisputable. Unfortunately their solution to TT’s errors is for him to submit to their leadership.
Leaders will always be flawed, the problem is a culture that demands submission to the flawed leaders rather than submission to each other. Get rid of the notion of “Submit to the leadership” and instead actively teach against it. If Jesus teaching on authority, “it will not be so among you” was actively taught and widely understood it would accomplish much.
With a better understanding there would not be a small group of men who think they are above others, believers would not treat some select few as above reproach, religious celebrities would be viewed as the antithesis of Jesus teaching, and the church would not attract narcissists such as TT.
@ Dave A A:
“he wasn’t officially a pastor or elder but rather a “ministry director” or some such. And later statements indicated his purpose while there was not to work on behalf of the flock, but a little paid R&R.”
+++++++++++
so, Religion News Service says,
“He joined Willow Creek in September and originally had been given the title of director of ministry development at Willow Creek, which Labby said was “poorly chosen” and a “mistake” on his part. Really, the pastor said, it was a sabbatical “set up to care for him and his family so he could pursue healing and counseling and rest.” Tchividjian had no ministerial role and worked completely behind the scenes at the church, Labby said.”
If i were a tithing member of that church i’d be furious. What amazing liberties to take with other people’s money. The pastor pays a friend to have R & R on the backs of tithers. I’m very curious what in the world TT did to earn his (I assume generous) paycheck at Willow Creek funded by other people’s money.
I’d sure love to hear pastors A, B, & C talk about the justification for this kind of thing. Just another reason for my huge philosphical problems with church culture and professional christians.
http://religionnews.com/2016/03/17/tullian-tchividjian-out-at-church-as-his-ministry-board-members-quit/
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
as it has been a part of the traditional thinking of the Church since the days of Justin Martyr, Christian Humanism today remains a strongly organized going concern, although it may not have found a home in the evangelical world:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
Futuristic Brad wrote, quoting a press release from Willow Creek:
One of the problems here is the multiple contradictory meanings buried in the word “church” (with or without a capital C). Had “his local church” actually been a fully-relating part of the church in that area, rather than an isolated splinter-group, it might have been easier to identify his behaviour, and correct and restrain his influence, in the first place.
@ Bill M:
@ elastigirl:
Agreed!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Some people have reported they left the Calvary Chapel splinter after their wolf was exposed, only to be taken in by the Coral Ridge Presbyterian wolf.
@ trs UNITED STATES on Thu Dec 01, 2016 at 04:13 PM
Also very informative —
A former student documents his abuse by EO priests at St. Innocents’ Academy in Kodiak, AK.
An up-close look at the dynamics of the enmeshment of spiritual and sexual abuse.
His wife also shares her experiences of abuse.
Possibly triggering.
https://cazandlittle.wordpress.com/category/its-time-to-tell-a-story/
https://cazandlittle.wordpress.com/2016/12/03/holy-hell/
elastigirl wrote:
How nice to get a cushy job with good pay that’s paid for on the backs of people who are probably struggling just to get by!
How many of us get jobs like that for being terrible human beings? I know I don’t! I’ve had some awful jobs that paid very little, and I worked like a slave at them. I’ve rarely gotten a break from people for no reason, much less for being a jerk.
elastigirl wrote:
The New Calvinist movement has a network of leaders who cover each others’ back. Together for the Gospel (= Together for Calvinism) and The Gospel Coalition (= The Calvinist Coalition) have done that for C.J. Mahaney. They will protect Tullian, Mahaney, and other wayward brethren until they become potatoes too hot to handle, like Driscoll … then the good friends will drop them, if their own skin is at stake. Tullian crossed that line with the big boys, but apparently still has some friends in the “ministry.”
ishy wrote:
The very definition of Highborn Aristocracy.
ishy wrote:
Sociopaths who know how to camouflage what they really are.
Deceit and Deception.
Until you’re firmly in POWER and you can take off the Angel of Light mask.
Dave A A wrote:
“The Devil sends temptation in matched opposing pairs, so in fleeing one we embrace the other.”
— attr to C.S.Lewis
And like the two archetypes of Antichrist — the Fanatic Persecutor (Beast) and Slick Deceiver (False Prophet) — working as a tag team.
okrapod wrote:
“Rapid Roy, that stock-car boy,
He the best driver in the land;
They say he learned to race stock car
Runnin’ ‘shine outa Alabam’;
Demolition Derby and the Figure-Eight
Are easy money in the bank
When you’ve been runnin’ from the man in Oklahoma City
With a five hundred-gallon tank…”
— Jim Croce