Fellowship Memphis: It Appears Seeking Truth and Righteousness Deserves Church Discipline

In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell link

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A former church which obfuscated the facts surrounding a heinous child sex abuse situation.

I still remember like it was yesterday. Our church was notified by police that it had a predator in its midst. This predator, Doug Goodrich, is serving 13 years in prison. The pastors met with parents of kids who were in the age group of preference for Goodrich in order to discuss the actions of the church in the matter. Three things jumped out at me.

1. They claimed they had no prior knowledge of any untoward behavior by Goodrich.
2. They asked us not to discuss anything or gossip about the victims because they had all requested their privacy.
3. The church would be getting in-depth counseling for the affected boys.

I believed them for a short period of time until a victim's mother told me the real story. This would be a defining moment for the Deebs. It was God's way of lighting a fire under the two of us, a fire that continues to burn hotter every day. For us, child sex abuse is the hill to die on. The evangelical church, as Boz Tchividjian said, is even worse than the Catholic church when it comes to this issue. 

Many of us believe that my former church lied to us. They had received reports the previous year of unusual behavior by the pedophile which they decided was just 'locker room behavior'. Also, way too many of us did not *gossip* about the boys, which helped cover up the apparent lack of concern on the part of the church.

They did not offer the kids counseling. They had a couple of elders run around and meet with the teens. One teen, Adam, told us that one elder asked him: "Didn't you know what you were doing was wrong?" and "Why did you keep this a secret from your parents?" Besides showing a dangerous lack of understanding of child sex abuse, the elder did not proceed to offer any sort of counseling, etc.

Another elder – well known to SEBTS – reportedly told a family (after meeting with their victimized son for all of 45 minutes) that he was doing just fine. He wasn't. Some of these victims have gone on to experience serious difficulties in their lives. A number of teens, who knew how the church responded, have gone on to leave the faith, including all of the children of one elder. Some of these kids, now young adults, follow this blog and are grateful for the advocacy of the Deebs and the support of the readers. Thank you all for caring about the victims.

The Deebs proceed to gossip.

We confronted the church regarding their lack of transparency. We told the truth as we knew it, which contradicted the reports of the pastors and elders. We stood firm when they had an internal investigation and *proved* that they were not guilty and that the rest of us were gossips and guilty of not handling things *appropriately.*

Why did we gossip?

We were concerned for the welfare of the children in that church. We realized that the church leaders were willing to say anything in order to make this all go away.  We did not do this for our own well being. In fact, it caused nearly 8 months of misery for all of us involved. We had to leave our church and the large Sunday school class we taught. Many other people left the church as well. However, Adam was grateful that a number of people believed him instead of the pastors. This is one young man who is now doing very well in his life, and we are so glad that we stood up to the leadership.

When accusations of gossip become gag orders.

3 years ago, we wrote a post When accusations of gossip become gag orders. Here is a excerpt.


Begin Excerpt

When is it not gossip?

It is really quite simple. It is not gossip when you, as a church member, have a question or concern and need an answer. If one is a member of a church, (s)he has the right, and even the obligation, to question the use of tithes and the lifestyles of the pastors and church leaders. They have a moral duty to raise concerns about the safety and care of children as well as any doctrine that is being taught. They should question changes in church bylaws and constitutions. They have a right to know about the theological stances of the pastors and leaders  They should expect that pastors and church leaders will answer both thoroughly and truthfully. 

Church leaders and pastors need to pull on their big boy pants and be willing to discuss the concerns of any member, even if it is awkward. They should be willing to take critique and role model how big boys in Christ handle criticism and concerns. Otherwise, they will come off looking like wussy Pharisees.

Here are some examples of problems which should be discussed and do not constitute gossip. In each of these circumstances, the people involved have been accused of gossip and slander.Some details have been changed.

  • Recently we received communication from a woman who expressed concern about the handling of money matters in her church. It appears that the lead pastor (YRR megachurch) had moved to a very large home. During this time, he has been involved in massive fund raising in the church. The budget was presented to the congregation with little time to look it over prior to the vote. There was a significant amount of money that was being held in an account to "bless the pastors." When she raised her had and asked a question about this, she was told that they needed the money to hold onto the great pastors they already had. They refused to answer more questions. This person had given a great deal of money to the church and was now questioning the use of that money.The elders refuse to answer any further inquiries on the matter. 
  • There is a large church in which a pedophile badly harmed a group of boys. He is serving a lengthy sentence for his crimes. A mother of one of the boys let some church members know that they had reported an incident a year previous to the church. Their report was not only ignored but the psychological well-being of her son was called into question. The church had elected not to report the incident and did not have to because of lax reporting laws in that state. 
  • A pastor, along with his buddies, run up a $60 million debt. The pastor is living in a $2 million home. He is asking people to sacrifice to pay of the debt and he is still living in his mansion.
  • The Sovereign Grace Survivors site has documented years of alleged reports of child sex abuse and harsh  discipline. Lawsuits have been filed. Yet many of the YRR crowd defend the ministry.
  • A husband and wife spent many years telling people how to live a biblical, Christian marriage. They gave classes and were brought in on tough situations. They often made people feel bad because they would hold up their marriage as an example on how to do marriage. They got a divorce. Some folks who were the recipients of their "wisdom" have discussed it with one another, trying to figure what went wrong.
  • A pastor who decided to change the entire Sunday school program to better prepare kids for "the world" was highly critical of parents who enjoyed the old system. He was adamant, saying this program would prevent children from leaving the faith when they went to college. Two of his kids have left the faith after years of the "perfect" SS program. 

End excerpt


Gossips are often accused of being just troublemakers. Ask why they would want to be troublemakers.

So, in circumstances like child sex abuse or voyeurism, is it truly gossip or is it an inconvenient truth that brings embarrassment to church leaders who are covering things up? This sort of gossip is a selfless act which is performed in order to bring up issues that are difficult. It is often inconvenient for the truth teller to do so.

When the Deebs and others stood up for the boys who were harmed, it caused us personal difficulties. I found it frustrating when people I knew wouldn't believe us. The pastors were angry, sending a missive to the church about us being troublemakers. I ended up losing friends (well, I guess they weren't real friends) over this situation since they couldn't believe that pastors would lie.

Is it truly gossip/slander or an inconvenient truth that needs to come out?

The words *gossip* and *slander* are often used interchangeably ins churches. This demonstrates that the church leadership is not particularly smart. One of my favorite posts at TWW is Slander or an Inconvenient Truth? Here are some points from the post.

1. Slander is a spoken statement. If it is written or broadcast in the media it is libel. (Most pastors don't get this right.)
2. Defamation is the act of making a statement about another which is known to be untrue and is done to harm the other person's reputation. Think of this as a *big, fat lie.*
3. In the post, I looked at what the Bible had to say about the word slander. It matches the US legal definition of defamation which is the knowing act of making an untrue statement against another person in order to cause harm to that person's reputation.
4. T
he expression of a legitimate concern, based on a number of reports, is not slander but a form of Christian love. It is meant to protect the church from serious error; to help those who are being hurt by the church; to prevent harm to others in the church; and to exhort those in leadership to follow the example of Jesus. 
5.  Pastors who use the accusation of slander may be attempting to squelch very serious concerns within the church or he may be trying to hide something. In fact I would contend that, in many situations, when a pastor cries "slander," he is really saying "I don't want to hear that. It means I have to deal with it and I don't want to. It will screw up all sorts of things."

An actual example of pastoral misunderstanding from our post.


Begin example

This advice, if followed, could have serious consequences.

Nell says:
February 18, 2013 at 4:07 pm
Frank
“If someone is clearly sinning, they are to be approached in private.” Is this the case with pedophilia? Should we let the churches handle this “privately”?

Frank Viola says:
February 18, 2013 at 8:29 pm

I didn’t write the article, but I think I can give an answer nonetheless. Jesus teaching in Matt. 18 doesn’t prioritize one sin above another or make exceptions. I was once part of a church where a pedophile was discovered to be among us. We went to him in private first. Eventually he was put out of the church, following Matt. 18, because he refused to accept correction. What he was doing was inappropriate, but it hadn’t gotten to the crime stage.

The NT doesn’t make an exception or an excuse for the sin of gossip, as Zens points out. Zens is appealing to the NT. If one doesn’t believe the NT, then that’s another story. The article is written to those who do. btw/ the instruction about the 2 or 3 isn’t that they have to be witnesses to the sin, but they are witnesses to the discipline process and correction. In addition, pedophilia is a crime. So going to the authorities for a crime … like murder, physical abuse, etc. . . . isn’t gossip if it’s happening.

Here are the problems with this response. Viola claims the man was a pedophile. They went to him privately and at some later point, threw him out of the church because he did not "receive correction". Viola said it was "inappropriate" but it did not reach a "crime" stage. So, the man was a pedophile, but his sin was not a crime? And this is still considered "gossip"? It appears that Viola is saying that we must "Matthew 18" the situation before reporting it. The discussion progresses as Viola is pushed on the pedophile issue since his answer is not clear.

lmalone says:
February 16, 2013 at 10:51 am

So what would you do if someone tells you they fear a child is being molested and has given their reasons for thinking so but they have no proof? How would you handle that? Would that be considered “gossip”?

Frank Viola says:
February 17, 2013 at 10:47 am

Someone’s “fear” or “suspicion” doesn’t make it so. If there’s a legitimate concern with clear evidence, an investigation should be done. The person should be approached directly. If it’s clear that it’s happening and will continue to happen, the authorities should be contacted for this is a serious crime. Again, just as yourself, how would I want to be treated if it were me being accused. That question answers most of these questions.

Viola's advice here contradicts the advice of many experts. In fact, it mirrors a situation with which I am acquainted. A teen boy reported a sexually charged incident at a church retreat. The church "investigated" it and pronounced the teen "nuts". The pedophile continued to have full access to a group of boys for another year and horribly abused them. He is serving 13 years in jail, thanks to the police who caught him.The Matthew 18 brigade at the church had an epic fail, and there were many who were hurt by their inability to make an adequate assessment.

Frankly, this is why churches get into trouble. He (Viola and pastors) get to determine what constitutes "legitimate evidence.". He gets to do the investigation. He gets to determine if it is "clear" that the abuse is occurring. This is dangerous. I am sure he thinks he is being "biblical", but he is mistaken.

If you believe that sex abuse is occurring, call Child Protective Services immediately. You are immune from any prosecution by reporting a legitimate concern. Many states will allow you to report this anonymously. This is not slander, it is the right thing to do. Let the experts decide what is going on. And, if your church accuses you of slander, get out of there, pronto! That is a dangerous church.

End example


Anonymous threatened with church discipline by Fellowship Memphis

I am sorry for repeating things from some older posts, but I thought it might help newer readers who have joined the discussion from Memphis. Anonymous approached the leaders of Fellowship Memphis about the following issues. Anonymous was concerned that the church attendees and members had not been notified. 

1. Peter Newman
2. The 2010 incident regarding Rick Trotter

Anonymous was told he was not to gossip about these matters and was threatened with church discipline.

1. Anonymous was telling the truth as he knew it.
2. He was doing so to protect those attended the church
3. He was not doing this in order to purposely bring harm to another's reputation.

Therefore, the leadership of Fellowship Memphis behaved in an unbiblical manner and should offer an apology to Anonymous (I bet they know who it is) and to the entire church congregation.

Anonymous is also blown off by Pastor Sandy Willson of Second Presbyterian Church which started Downtown Church and became the site of Rick Trotter's second arrest.

Once again, Anonymous behaves in a righteous manner, expresses concern about the hiring of Rick Trotter by Downtown Church. He knows that there is a real possibility that Trotter would reoffend. In my opinion, that is because Anonymous really cares about the safety of the people in the church, unlike these pastors.

1. Anonymous writes to Willson

Date: Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 1:00 PM
Subject: known sexual predator on your staff–need to discuss

To: Sandy Willson <swillson@2pc.org>
Sandy–
I have heard great things about you, your integrity, and your heart, so it is high expectations that I regretfully contact you with some sobering news.

I have solid knowledge that Second Pres has hired a man for the downtown church plant who was fired from his last church job (last year) for being a sexual predator.  He was caught videotaping women and children in compromising positions in the bathrooms at the church offices and at his home; whether he used the videos for "merely" his own perverse sexual satisfaction or posted them online is unknown.  The church fired him, but proceeded to attempt to cover up the sin (I know, because I was brought into the matter in a counseling capacity, and when I warned folks whose daughters were babysitting at his house of the danger, I was threatened with expulsion from the church).

Frankly, I presume that you take your responsibility as overseer of the flock seriously and wish to protect the female employees at the church and in the church body at large in the same way you'd protect your grandkids from those who would prey upon them.  We have a special responsibility to make sure the folks in official church positions are worthy, lest the millstone be on our own necks.

I look forward to meeting with you to assist in resolving an unsavory matter in a way that will bring eventual reconciliation to the predator and provide morally-required protection of our trusting brothers and sisters in Christ.

Please feel free to call or email me at your earliest convenience. I look forward to hearing from you.

Truly,
Anonymous' name

2. Wilson responds to Anonymous

From: Sandy Willson and Marcia Smith <sandy.willson@2pc.org>
Date: Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 1:35 PM
Subject: RE: known sexual predator on your staff–need to discuss
To: Name of Anonymous 

(Name of Anonymous) thank you for your email. You are obviously raising very important issues. Let me advise you how to handle this concern. I think the right thing to do is to contact the senior minister at Downtown Church, Rev. Richard Rieves (richard@downtownpres.com, 901-451-2201).  He would be responsible for all matters on their staff. If you and he would like my help in any way, please let me know. 

Fellowship Memphis, Downtown Church and Second Presbyterian are unsafe churches if these allegations are true and I believe that they are.

If these allegations prove to be true, then I have little to no confidence in the leadership of these churches. How any pastor or church leaders in this day and age could not understand the serious nature of a voyeur paraphiliac, including the probable reoffense on the part of the voyeur, is beyond belief. All they have to do is Google *paraphilia* and *voyeur* and read for about 15 minutes. My guess is that none of these guys gave a hoot about the problem or are dangerously naive.

Until these churches apologize and get some training by some real experts, I suggest that people consider finding another church to attend. Never, ever forget that your pastor is a sinner just like everyone else.

If church leaders accuse you of slander, then they must prove that you are deliberately lying in order to harm someone. If they cannot, and you are not, then they are the ones who are guilty of defaming you.

Stay tuned next week as we look at the links of these churches to certain well-known groups. Also, Fellowship Memphis appears to have a some fascinating ideas on gender. Have you heard about the one about the pastor who handed out dish towels on Mother's Day? 

Comments

Fellowship Memphis: It Appears Seeking Truth and Righteousness Deserves Church Discipline — 423 Comments


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    First?


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    YAY!!!!!


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    Dee and Deb (aka The Deebs),

    That will PREACH.

    Exactly the silencing techniques that my ex-pastors used on me and others.
    That’s cultic behavior. People only hide what is unhealthy.


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    I notice that the words *troublemaker* and *whistleblower* both have the same number of syllables. Just cuz that’s the same doesn’t mean they mean the same. Just sayin’ and sayin’ it just.


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    My understanding is that Matthew 18 refers to offenses where one person has a beef with another person, and doesn’t apply to things like crime, or pastoral malfeasance. I can’t imagine anyone thinking that Jesus doesn’t want us to get the pedophiles away from the children in any way possible as soon as possible!!


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    The willful ignorance of these two churches in Memphis is staggering. In addition to doing a Google search for voyeurism and paraphilia, they need to do a Google search for “slander” apparently. The fact that the (alleged) crimes of Trotter and the crimes (for which he was convicted) of Newman were fully known by the churches and they were *still* hired boggles my mind.

    The whole “gossip (ed.) and slander” rhetoric snaked its way into my church’s “Bible study” this week, but of course the pastor moved on to the next topic before I could question him on the subject. This is the same pastor who took a jab at traditional churches a few weeks ago during a “Church isn’t about you!” rant.

    Red flags have come up recently in this church, not on the level of the two Memphis churches or the SGM debacle (nothing of an illegal nature), but things that are concerning nonetheless.

    Things like an Exodus 18:21-22 inspired “family tree” accountability program which strangely resembles both a pyramid scheme and the structure of the old Shepherding Movement. When formally implemented in October (I volunteer at the church office so I’m privy to some of these ideas), the deacon/overseer is supposed to contact members under their “care” weekly to probe into their lives, and also to interrogate people if they miss church. I asked the pastor to exclude me from this, and he begrudgingly agreed, though time will tell if he actually did so.

    Then there’s the “Man Day”/”Lady Day” “fellowship” socials, which probably relate somewhat to the dish towel thing. The “Man Day” activities are so stereotypically “macho-manly” you’d think Mark Driscoll himself came up with them. Next “Man Day?” Paintball fight.

    They’ve also been handing out my contact information freely. I’ve received texts and phone calls from random members that I haven’t specifically given my number to, I’ve been placed on a church subscription email without my consent, and this past week, while I was at the church office, someone was looking at my Facebook profile to get my birthday and who knows what other information from it (I promptly locked down my profile to church members as soon as I got home.)

    I’ve been going to this church for three years, but if things continue to go off the rails, I’ll be out within the next couple months.

    (Sorry if this has been off topic, but to kinda bring it back on topic, I have a feeling the “slander” card is going to be pulled on me if I bring any of this up with leadership. Quite frankly, I’m surprised it wasn’t when I requested not to be a part of the shepherding…I mean, “family tree” accountability scheme.)


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    AnonInNC wrote:

    The whole “gospel and slander” rhetoric

    I meant “gossip and slander” lol


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    When one raises legitimate question of science to young earthers, many respond in a very similar manner that Dee is bringing up w/r other failures of church leadership. I am coming to the conclusion that any “Christain leader” that immediately attacks the person raising the question (or ignores or try’s to squelch the question) has real “issues”. A real seeker/follower of truth is not threatened by the truth, nor do they need to cover anything up….


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    Dee,

    I continue to pray for those who were victimized by a pedophile at your former church. They are in their early twenties now – around my younger daughter's age.

    My heart still breaks for those who were hurt physically, emotionally, and spiritually. 🙁


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    @ AnonInNC:

    Sounds like my ex-NeoCalvinist church. And yes, it is the heavy-Shepherding, which is un-Biblical.


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    The church leaders that blow off or cover up abuse in the ranks need to be prosecuted! Criminal negligence, aiding and abetting …….
    Keep it ” in house”? NO! I’ll put a twist on “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”. ……. serve the criminals up to local, state, and federal authorities! ALL of the criminals, including those who protect their personal income and social status by protecting and covering up for the abusers.
    Are these church leaders committing libel and slander when they condemn the victims?


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    @ Nancy2:

    Adding on Accessory After the Fact (concealing info, destroying it). Aiding & Abetting is helping with the crime. Post-crime helping out is A.t.F. Obstruction of Justice. Intimidating a Witness.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Are these church leaders committing libel and slander when they condemn the victims?

    Exactly, Nancy2.

    Like they haven’t been through enough already.


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    Another thought: Downtown Church had Trotter make a “statement of full disclosure” to the congregation before he was hired full time. I wonder how many people…

    1) …protested his hiring and were either ignored or threatened with discipline (like Anonymous in the post)

    2) …quietly left the church without telling anyone, and how many in this group were pursued by leaders to account for their absence

    3) …kept quiet and in membership out of fear of the hammer of “gossip and slander” discipline

    4) …willingly accepted Trotter either because of indoctrination/brainwashing or because they were just as ignorant of the recidivism rate of voyeurism as the leadership


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    Anonymous writes:
    ” when I warned folks whose daughters were babysitting at his house of the danger, I was threatened with expulsion from the church”

    my Goodness, since when is warning parents that their children may be in danger a reason to be put out of a Church???

    seems to me in order to belong to such an entity, and keep their evil ‘rules’, you have to shelve your conscience and resign from the human race first

    inviting evil in knowingly, then the ‘cover-up’, then intimidating (or trying to intimidate) those who refuse to ‘go along’, then actually attempting to ‘punish’ those who tried to protect innocents

    sounds un-Christ-like to me, yes

    my take is that many of the people in this Church, if they WERE to ‘look the other way’, or ‘keep silent’ knowing others were in harm’s way …. those people will have gone over to the Dark side

    fortunately the way Our Lord has set up His Church, we know that the ‘gates of hell shall not prevail against it’,
    and there will ALWAYS be those in the congregation of a REAL Church that will NOT ‘look away’ or ‘keep silent’ or knowingly allow innocents to be preyed upon

    I believe in THAT Church …. the one Our Lord instituted, which doesn’t answer to some corrupt pastor, but wherein the members look out for each other and keep the most vulnerable among them protected …. THAT Church can and will be attacked by the evil one, but it will survive the storm with the help of Our Lord Himself as He promised it would


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    Velour wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Are these church leaders committing libel and slander when they condemn the victims?

    Exactly, Nancy2.

    Like they haven’t been through enough already.

    which goes to PROVE that the ‘leaders’ did not themselves condemn the victimization of these people they now are turning on . . .

    I’m thinking that in some cases, these ‘leaders’ are also trying to hide their own guilt of ‘knowingly’ admitting a predator into their fold,
    which is beyond all that should tolerated by a faith community in its ‘pastor’

    Is now time for ‘shepherdesses’ in the Church who will protect its children with the fierceness of a mother’s heart, ya think?


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    I clicked on your link to Doug Goodrich and read that the reason he was arrested was because a Raleigh police officer doing a routine patrol spotted Goodrich and a 13 year old boy in a parked car at a park and determined the boy had been lured there for a sexual encounter. Had the police not caught Goodrich in the act, one has to wonder whether or not Goodrich would be free and still offending? Churches need to have a voca, no tolerance policy towards CSA and advertise it and educate the children on what to look for. This is the only way we will stop wolves from using churches to prey on our children.

    As you may end up finding out with this Memphis Trotter case, the Memphis PD aren’t always that good about following up on sex abuse cases that involve popular pastors at popular churches.

    Memphis youth pastor and voyeur Sammy Nuckolls was arrested in his home in the greater Memphis area on October 29, 2011. Sammy was a prominent member of Broadway Baptist Church, a large Southern Baptist Church in Southaven MS. On September 7, 2011, the head pastor’s son, Tim Lampley jr, age 25, was pulled over by the police and arrested for having sex with a 14 year old student from his church’s youth group. He had persuaded the girl to jump out of her window at 2:00am and get into his vehicle and have sex with him. A police officer noticed the car driving erratically and pulled up next to them and witnessed the act.

    The police report documenting this event and his arrest was filed in Shelby County and reported in the weekly police blotter. People at the church knew about it. Sammy and his wife Kimberly Nuckolls now Allen rushed to his side to support him in HIS hour of need (not the young 14 year old child). After Sammy’s arrest the following month, Sammy stated that Tim’s dad now “owed” him a favor for standing by his son during his hour of distress. Tim Sr had a private audience with the judge to speak about Sammy’s case. Fortunately, it didn’t seem to do much good.

    However, the worst part is that a police officer witnessed this personally and wrote down the testimony (confession). He made the arrest. He booked Tim jr in a Shelby County jail. Then **poof!** that’s it. The case vanished without a single trace. No record of a court case. No criminal charges. If people hadn’t seen it in the paper with their own eyes, they might think it had never happened at all. It was printed in the weekly crime blotter and everyone at Broadway Baptist knew it happened and did discuss it. Gossip or no gossip, that was big news. But no one outside of that church was the wiser.

    Sammy’s case was fraught with similar actions that made it seem like both the local cops and the prosecutor were pulling for him to at least get a lighter sentence. Somehow every student that was taped while they were still in high school were conveniently left off the indictment despite being positively identified. The one they could not avoid leaving off the list (because she found out before the indictment as her sister was also taped) the prosecutor changed the date on her charge to make her 18 not 17 so she would not be a minor. When she objected to that she was screamed at by the prosecutor until she cried and gave up. All the indictments were later amended for other reasons and the prosecutor still refused to change her date to show she was 17. There is a laundry list of other stuff just like this that went on throughout the whole case.

    The Bible Belt hates going after pastors and some will do what they can to look the other way or do the bare minimum. The mainstream press is almost as bad. This makes it harder for victims to come forward. Can you imagine what this did to the 14 year old girl whose violation and betrayal of trust by a 25 year old leader was treated like it never happened like in some sort of Twilight Zone sort of way?

    If Memphis will do this for a regular pastor it shouldn’t be difficult to understand how far they might go to help out both a popular pastor and the “Voice of the Grizzlies”. There are no other major sports teams to support here. Memphis has one AAA baseball team but no other top level sports. Take a look at those rally towels swinging inside those sell-out crowds. His status as a sports announcer shouldn’t matter but it does.

    I don’t know what will come out about what the police involvement was with this case, but nothing will surprise me. When is enough going to be enough? I sincerely hope that all victims retain very good legal counsel. It may go against their Christian background to do so, but that is the only language these predator protectors speak. Please do it for all future victims.


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    You know, Christians can personally bear much persecution in this world,
    but when they SEE it happening to an innocent, they are called to action to intervene, to stop abuse, to bind up the wounds, to return to check on the wounded

    That is not ‘works’, no. That is called ‘love’. And anytime you get a ‘pastor’ who tells you not to express your concern for victims, you know you have a ‘pastor’ who is no longer in the service of Christ, if he ever was in the first place.

    If such a ‘pastor’ puts you out of his creepy pervert-enabling personal fiefdom, you aren’t being put out of the Church of Our Lord, no. Far from it. Take your removal from said hell-hole as blessing and move on to a faith community where the smallest and the most vulnerable members are protected actively from harm.


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    Deebs thanks for all your work it is appreciated. Jeffrey thanks for what you said.


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    So Frank Viola would have people fiddling around with Matthew 18 while the predator is helping himself to new victims? The naivety and utter lack of interest in what this does to children is mind blowing.

    There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

    And this is why I advise my kids not to take their kids to church. I don’t trust these people. Our childrens & grandchildren’s welfare is not important to them as it is to us.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Is now time for ‘shepherdesses’ in the Church who will protect its children with the fierceness of a mother’s heart, ya think?

    Maybe that’s why these guys are big on removing power from mothers.


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    Christiane wrote:

    You know, Christians can personally bear much persecution in this world,
    but when they SEE it happening to an innocent, they are called to action to intervene, to stop abuse, to bind up the wounds, to return to check on the wounded
    That is not ‘works’, no. That is called ‘love’. And anytime you get a ‘pastor’ who tells you not to express your concern for victims, you know you have a ‘pastor’ who is no longer in the service of Christ, if he ever was in the first place.
    If such a ‘pastor’ puts you out of his creepy pervert-enabling personal fiefdom, you aren’t being put out of the Church of Our Lord, no. Far from it. Take your removal from said hell-hole as blessing and move on to a faith community where the smallest and the most vulnerable members are protected actively from harm.

    Amazing comment. That will preach, Christiane!


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    @ JH:

    Sad and bad what these predatory pastors are able to get away with.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Nancy2 wrote:
    Are these church leaders committing libel and slander when they condemn the victims?
    Exactly, Nancy2.
    Like they haven’t been through enough already.
    which goes to PROVE that the ‘leaders’ did not themselves condemn the victimization of these people they now are turning on . . .
    I’m thinking that in some cases, these ‘leaders’ are also trying to hide their own guilt of ‘knowingly’ admitting a predator into their fold,
    which is beyond all that should tolerated by a faith community in its ‘pastor’
    Is now time for ‘shepherdesses’ in the Church who will protect its children with the fierceness of a mother’s heart, ya think?

    Amen, Christiane.

    Yesterday I received compliments via social media from people across the nation who’d read by new blog about the spiritual abuse going on at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, my ex-church. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/

    Apparently many people, including them, have been the subjects of spiritual abuse and have seen it – the same way it was done in my ex-church [Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley], also at their churches run by John MacArthur (“JMac”) graduates. My ex-pastor was a graduate of JMac’s The Master’s Seminary. I was told that people across the nation who’ve been through similar are intimidated. Why should any of us be? they said people will be encouraged by my blog.

    I am so angry at what I witnessed go on to dear sweet saints at my ex-church. No. Just no.
    And no, I won’t be quiet. Perish the thought.


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    siteseer wrote:

    So Frank Viola would have people fiddling around with Matthew 18 while the predator is helping himself to new victims? The naivety and utter lack of interest in what this does to children is mind blowing.
    There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.
    And this is why I advise my kids not to take their kids to church. I don’t trust these people. Our childrens & grandchildren’s welfare is not important to them as it is to us.

    Amen.

    And Boz T. covers over at G.R.A.C.E. the misapplication of Matthew 18.


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    Christiane wrote:

    If such a ‘pastor’ puts you out of his creepy pervert-enabling personal fiefdom, you aren’t being put out of the Church of Our Lord, no. Far from it. Take your removal from said hell-hole as blessing and move on to a faith community where the smallest and the most vulnerable members are protected actively from harm.

    You are on FIRE with the comments! Good stuff.


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    Deb wrote:

    Dee,
    I continue to pray for those who were victimized by a pedophile at your former church. They are in their early twenties now – around my younger daughter’s age.
    My heart still breaks for those who were hurt physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

    Me too.

    I know a man and his wife who never stepped foot in a church again after one of their sons was sexually abused by a youth pastor. Their church’s senior pastor told the entire church not to talk to the parents and the victim! At their darkest time, they lost their life-long friends. Vicious. Absolutely. Completely. Totally. Vicious. Will Jesus really give them a pass when they meet up with Him?


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    @ AnonInNC:

    Made that correction for you.


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    Velour wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    So Frank Viola would have people fiddling around with Matthew 18 while the predator is helping himself to new victims? The naivety and utter lack of interest in what this does to children is mind blowing.
    There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.
    And this is why I advise my kids not to take their kids to church. I don’t trust these people. Our childrens & grandchildren’s welfare is not important to them as it is to us.
    Amen.
    And Boz T. covers over at G.R.A.C.E. the misapplication of Matthew 18.

    Here’s the article from the G.R.A.C.E. – Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment – website about Matthew 18: http://www.netgrace.org/resources/2015/4/9/child-abuse-and-matthew-18-the-dangers-of-distorting-scripture


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    Sopwith wrote:

      Does your local church offer teaching, kindness, safeguards, thoughtful answers to tough questions, and protection for you and your family members?

    And do they teach by example, not just with words?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Sopwith wrote:
      Does your local church offer teaching, kindness, safeguards, thoughtful answers to tough questions, and protection for you and your family members?
    And do they teach by example, not just with words?

    Yes.

    You may be the *only Bible* someone ever *reads*.


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    The “don’t gossip” line makes me incredibly angry. It is always applied to situations when you SHOULD be saying something. It was often used by my former pastor when making changes people were very unhappy with that caused many members to leave. Instead of taking a less heavy handed, more grace based approach he immediately started labeling all who left and disagreed with him as bitter trouble makers.

    In my former church (IFB) we had a terrible molestation situation. The leadership did immediately contact authorities when it was brought to light, though there were hints (obvious to us) something was wrong long before and they knowingly kept this man in a position of leadership over young teens, but the teen victims were also publicly church disciplined and were formally shunned by the church for 3 months. And it was threatened from the pulpit that if any of us told anyone outside the church this gossip we’d be church disciplined too. There’s more to the story but I’m afraid to say online in case word ever gets back to the church, since my family still goes there and I don’t want them to get in trouble.


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    “Frankly, this is why churches get into trouble. He (Viola and pastors) get to determine what constitutes “legitimate evidence.”. He gets to do the investigation. He gets to determine if it is “clear” that the abuse is occurring. This is dangerous. I am sure he thinks he is being “biblical”, but he is mistaken.”

    Viola and Zens turned out to be great disappointments to me a few years back. I just don’t see how he can go to Matthew 18 and walk away with that interpretation when it comes to possible sexual perversion. We are talking about crimes that involve intricate grooming and secrecy which invites speculation and what some perceive as gossip just trying to get to truth.

    It is so hard for victims to speak up at all. They often have to go through a period of processing what happened with an undeveloped young mind and they usually blame themselves for trusting the criminal con pervert. Churches and Christians leaders just pile on with the whole gossip shtick. The very people the victim should be able to trust, turn on them.


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    AnonInNC wrote:

    Downtown Church had Trotter make a “statement of full disclosure” to the congregation before he was hired full time.

    I’ve seen a statement of full disclosure. It wasn’t exactly “full.” My guess is that they told the congregation that Trotter had experienced a “moral failure” due to viewing inappropriate material and that he’d repented and gone through a “season” of counseling. Everybody thought he had a little porn problem and was dealing with it. Lots of people view porn. And if they don’t look at it they know people who do. No big deal, right?

    If the “shepherd” had told his flock that the new guy on staff was into voyeurism and had allegedly been secretly filming people in the bathroom at work and at home(!) they wouldn’t have been so quick to accept him. I’m having a moment where I hope God does NOT have mercy on these guys.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    There’s more to the story but I’m afraid to say online in case word ever gets back to the church, since my family still goes there and I don’t want them to get in trouble.

    wow, if your family still goes there, they are ALREADY in trouble


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    jjuulliiee wrote:

    I can’t imagine anyone thinking that Jesus doesn’t want us to get the pedophiles away from the children in any way possible as soon as possible!!

    Yep!


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    JH wrote:

    Churches need to have a voca, no tolerance policy towards CSA and advertise it and educate the children on what to look for. This is the only way we will stop wolves from using churches to prey on our children.

    This is my position, too. It must be so clear that a predator decides it is not worth it. People must be educated that perverts target churches because people there are more trusting. Schools have had to go with zero tolerance.

    People fear this claiming false accusations. They don’t understand the grooming process.


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    AnonInNC wrote:

    family tree” accountability scheme.)

    They tried to implement this is a church I attended for a short while. I was assigned an accountability elder. I never returned his phone calls and quickly left the church.


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    . I am coming to the conclusion that any “Christain leader” that immediately attacks the person raising the question (or ignores or try’s to squelch the question) has real “issues”

    And lots of them have real issues.


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    @ Christiane:

    My parents are older and really are at the stage were they just show up, do their “church duty” and stay out of things. The guy is serving a prison sentence, and though they didn’t agree how with how everything was handled, them handing him over the authorities immediately was good enough for them. I can respect their position but for me it wasn’t good enough. But then I’m a loudmouth with a streak of justice a mile wide who was already tired of being a woman in Christian culture anyway. So it was the final straw for me. Thankfully getting married and moving across the state enabled me to leave quietly without anyon getting wind of my rebel side.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Keep it ” in house”? NO! I’ll put a twist on “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”. ……. serve the criminals up to local, state, and federal authorities! ALL of the criminals, i

    Well said


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    siteseer wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Is now time for ‘shepherdesses’ in the Church who will protect its children with the fierceness of a mother’s heart, ya think?
    Maybe that’s why these guys are big on removing power from mothers.

    There is something to this. They have to groom the parents too. So often the victims are children of lower income single moms who need help and are thankful for attention and such. Pervert cons are some of the most evil people out there using clever deception.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    but the teen victims were also publicly church disciplined and were formally shunned by the church for 3 months.

    That’s outrageous. I really hope we’re going to see a day when clergy will be arrested and prosecuted for these criminal acts of Obstruction of Justice, Intimidating a Witness (es),
    Accessory After The Fact (destroying evidence, covering it up, covering for a criminal, as opposed to Aiding and Abetting which is helping with the crime).

    Thank you for posting about this case.

    Yes, my ex-pastor/elders were also fond of playing the “gossip” card to silence legitimate questions, concerns, etc. Very toxic.


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    AnonInNC wrote:

    Another thought: Downtown Church had Trotter make a “statement of full disclosure” to the congregation before he was hired full time. I wonder how many people…

    I would have loved to have been there. I can imagine the prelude of the pastors about forgiveness and Jesus healed him. And they would be unforgiving if they didn’t believe he was cured.


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    @ I fear a cage:

    I like your name. Me too!


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    @ Velour:

    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to. 🙁


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    @ Lydia:

    Thank you. 🙂 I’ve always loved Eowyn and that quote.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ I fear a cage:

    I like your name. Me too!

    “What do you fear, lady?” Aragorn asked.
    “A cage,” Éowyn said.
    “To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”

    J.R.R. Tolkien
    The Return of the King


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    Christiane wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ I fear a cage:

    I like your name. Me too!

    “What do you fear, lady?” Aragorn asked.
    “A cage,” Éowyn said.
    “To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”

    J.R.R. Tolkien
    The Return of the King

    It’s always been so true for me!


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    dee wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    . I am coming to the conclusion that any “Christain leader” that immediately attacks the person raising the question (or ignores or try’s to squelch the question) has real “issues”

    And lots of them have real issues.

    Church has become so difficult for those that just want to follow and be like Jesus.


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    siteseer wrote:

    So Frank Viola would have people fiddling around with Matthew 18 while the predator is helping himself to new victims? The naivety and utter lack of interest in what this does to children is mind blowing.

    This is the attitude which forces state legislators to bring forward legislation making church staff into mandatory reporters, because people like Viola want to handle crimes via Matthew 18.

    I could barely type this between wanting to pound my head into the desk and covering my face with my hands. I mean, to me, it’s a no-brainer, you think a child is being harmed, you report it, right?


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    I’m glad you did the right thing.

    These are evil, blinded men to give these kinds of hateful orders. They will stand before God. God is not mocked.


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    mirele wrote:

    This is the attitude which forces state legislators to bring forward legislation making church staff into mandatory reporters, because people like Viola want to handle crimes via Matthew 18.
    I could barely type this between wanting to pound my head into the desk and covering my face with my hands. I mean, to me, it’s a no-brainer, you think a child is being harmed, you report it, right?

    I guess the boyz are stilling camping out on a few key words and verses. There’s a whole forest of Scripture to be explored, including the one that most of them have never explored: Jesus mentioning mill stones for those who harm little ones, and not Matthew 18. Jesus mentioned drowning bad people.


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    Sorry to go off topic for a moment, but thank you for responding to my SOS yesterday. I just couldn’t believe that someone was calling Ruth Tucker bitter, crazy, in need of therapy, etc. That guy really has some mental issues of his own. I just asked him if he’s Ruth’s ex husband since he’s just a liitle too sensitive with his insults. Anyway, you guys are great!


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    Thank you for visiting them and defying orders! I can imagine what that meant to them.

    But this This boggles my mind. I can’t even fathom it. Why do people check their brains at The church door? Why do they obey such cruel orders from a guy on a platform? Where is the compassion for victims over the obedience to tyrants ?


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    @ Velour:
    Where would these guys be without the twisting of Matt 18, 1 Corin 11 and Eph 5?


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    @ Velour:
    A church cannot intimidate a witness because it is a voluntary association of protected beliefs……..or so I have found. Again, churches are great places for abusers and perverts where they often find instant forgiveness and cheap grace. A horrible place for victims who are often subject to piled on spiritual abuse after they have been abused and used by the forgiven predator.

    I often wonder why we expect this to change?


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Where would these guys be without the twisting of Matt 18, 1 Corin 11 and Eph 5?

    They might have to grow up, and I don’t think they want to.
    They strike me as a very arrogant, immature bunch.


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    JH wrote:

    If Memphis will do this for a regular pastor it shouldn’t be difficult to understand how far they might go to help out both a popular pastor and the “Voice of the Grizzlies”. There are no other major sports teams to support here. Memphis has one AAA baseball team but no other top level sports. Take a look at those rally towels swinging inside those sell-out crowds. His status as a sports announcer shouldn’t matter but it does.

    I lived in Memphis several years ago, and it always amazed me how corrupt the city is.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Sorry to go off topic for a moment, but thank you for responding to my SOS yesterday. I just couldn’t believe that someone was calling Ruth Tucker bitter, crazy, in need of therapy, etc. That guy really has some mental issues of his own. I just asked him if he’s Ruth’s ex husband since he’s just a liitle too sensitive with his insults. Anyway, you guys are great!

    Yeah!

    I was thinking about that convo on that article. I thought how come these guys who talk about how good it is for men to be in charge have to say it. How come they don’t demonstrate it? Their pompous claims to power, their lack of love, the insults they dish out to strangers (on the boards). And they have nothing to offer.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    Thank you for visiting them and defying orders! I can imagine what that meant to them.

    But this This boggles my mind. I can’t even fathom it. Why do people check their brains at The church door? Why do they obey such cruel orders from a guy on a platform? Where is the compassion for victims over the obedience to tyrants ?

    Because it’s cloaked in Christianese wording. many of the members in my former church (and I’m sure other churches too) are really just sincerely trying to do what’s right, but they’re being mislead by “biblical wording” and “gospel truth.”

    I still get confused by Christianese even when I should know better. Two days ago I commented on a rabid Piper/DG Facebook friend’s page that it was really hard to take much of what DG says about their Calvinist kindness, love, maturity in suffering, etc, (honestly I think they’re just prideful Christianese a$$es when I read most of their articles) when I’ve seen what Piper has said about woman, abused women, his support of Mahaney, etc. and I received blistering PM cloaked in Good Christian Girl language, reminding me not to slander, gossip, to give people grace, even ASKING about my experience with God’s grace. Words laced in so much disgusting Christianese I actually doubted myself for about 5 seconds.


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    “Gossip” is such a loaded term. If anyone at a church uses that term, take it as a red flag. If it’s in regards to matters that aren’t illegal, then that’s one thing, but the term is being misused to manipulate people who don’t want to be seen as devisive in the church.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    I still get confused by Christianese even when I should know better. Two days ago I commented on a rabid Piper/DG Facebook friend’s page that it was really hard to take much of what DG says about their Calvinist kindness, love, maturity in suffering, etc, (honestly I think they’re just prideful Christianese a$$es when I read most of their articles) when I’ve seen what Piper has said about woman, abused women, his support of Mahaney, etc. and I received blistering PM cloaked in Good Christian Girl language, reminding me not to slander, gossip, to give people grace, even ASKING about my experience with God’s grace. Words laced in so much disgusting Christianese I actually doubted myself for about 5 seconds.

    I think we’ve all been there. Call these people on their manipulation. I think you’ll see them get really flustered because you aren’t playing the game and allowing yourself to be manipulated.


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    Velour wrote:

    I was thinking about that convo on that article. I thought how come these guys who talk about how good it is for men to be in charge have to say it. How come they don’t demonstrate it? Their pompous claims to power, their lack of love, the insults they dish out to strangers (on the boards). And they have nothing to offer.

    Exactly!


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    mirele wrote:

    it’s a no-brainer, you think a child is being harmed, you report it, right

    That’s why I’m proud that here in TN, everyone is a mandatory reporter. I mean, everyone should be anyway.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    Shunning 13 year olds and discussing them in front of the whole congregation? Those are future “dones.” Can’t say I blame them. I won’t detail what I think about the people obeying the church. My language is too bad.


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    Could a twisted view of God be fueling this? I have yet to find a new-Calvinist who has a healthy view of God. +Calvinists love Jonathan Edwards, and new-Calvinists particularly admire him. Jonathan Edwards is one of the most famous Calvinist theologians and teachers. Here are a few small segments from his most famous sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God:
    – “By ‘the mere pleasure of God,’ I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God’s mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment.”
    – “The bow of God’s wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and Justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood.”
    – “you are thus in the hands of an angry God; ’tis nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction.”

    Fellowship Memphis is an Acts29 church according to the Acts29 website, which means it is new-Calvinist. The educational materials listed for FM’s various ministries are from new-Calvinist sources. Here is what they believe about God: “The first person of the Trinity orders and directs all things according to his purpose and pleasure. He has created humanity to bring him glory and honor, through his grace.” This view of God makes him sound like a deity who uses people for his own pleasure and glory, which is also a pretty good description of an abuser.

    If God is really that angry and capricious, and if people are really that depraved and unloved, then it’s no wonder that church leaders in churches like this would be so willing to tolerate abuse.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    who was already tired of being a woman in Christian culture anyway.

    Someone needs to frame this or embroider it on a pillow, something. All I can say is, “A-freaking-men!”


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    Shunning 13 year olds and discussing them in front of the whole congregation? Those are future “dones.” Can’t say I blame them. I won’t detail what I think about the people obeying the church. My language is too bad.

    I am worried about them. Next year they’ll graduate high school and then who knows what will happen. They never got counseling other than some biblical stuff with the pastor where they (I can guarantee it) just were told how they shouldn’t have kept it quite for over a year, how they should’ve told the adult man no (hello? He was a good looking smooth talking authority figure giving them attention) and they needed to deal with their own sin too. Oh, the churche “loved them” and “supported them” but only after hammering them with the should’ves and you sinner you.


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    @ I fear a cage:
    We have all been mislead to some degree because we did not question. It is the real horror that so many are trained not to question what is taught.

    There is something diabolical about evil being covered over with flowery Christianese.

    This is going to sound hyperbolic but in these situations i have had to take much comfort in the words of Christ, “who are my mother and brothers” and of course, Matthew 10. There are some relationships not worth preserving because they are so toxic to the soul and to our children’s souls. .And some of these are in my own family who helped to build the Christian industrial complex and still profit from it. If I want relationship, I either go along with their deception or I am the enemy of their perverted truth. That is the problem. They are the ones who demand conformity. I am perfectly content having relationship outside the system based on other things. They are immersed in their systems they helped to build. It is their identity. Not Jesus Christ but the system they believe represents Him.

    It is very sad but at the same time, extremely unhealthy. Over the years I have seen so many families broken up by the Pipers, Mahaneys, Driscolls, etc, and their my way or the highway theology.


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    @ I fear a cage:

    I am furious at the treatment of these girls and disgusted at the women in the church who sat in silence and allowed that further abuse to happen. I am sick and tired of the passive tolerance of evil in the church. We look nothing like our Savior and the apostles we so love to quote. True heroism is standing alone against your friends and family and calling out the evil tolerated by group. I want to see more heroes. The world wants to see more heroes. A victim of child sexual abuse is more likely to find compassion and support outside the church than inside. We have grieved the Holy Spirit and need to repent.


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    Troublemakers?! God, give us more troublemakers!!! Expose those that need to be exposed … sound the alarm! There have always been troublemakers of a good sort in church which question and warn.

    I’m reminded of an exchange between wicked King Ahab and the prophet Elijah:

    “When Ahab saw him, he exclaimed, “So, is it really you, you troublemaker of Israel?”” (1 Kings 18:17)

    For all you TWW troublemakers, keep it up! King Ahab is trembling. You are watchmen, not gossips!


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    @ Patriciamc:
    I am worried they will believe what they were told about themselves. So often young girls start acting out that belief later. Those lies are powerful.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    @ I fear a cage:

    I am furious at the treatment of these girls and disgusted at the women in the church who sat in silence and allowed that further abuse to happen. I am sick and tired of the passive tolerance of evil in the church. We look nothing like our Savior and the apostles we so love to quote. True heroism is standing alone against your friends and family and calling out the evil tolerated by group. I want to see more heroes. The world wants to see more heroes. A victim of child sexual abuse is more likely to find compassion and support outside the church than inside. We have grieved the Holy Spirit and need to repent.

    I agree.

    Former pastor had only been pastor for a few years. He’s a brainy intellect, a grad of a major IFB bible college and swept in to “get the church back on track”. It was actually a pretty decent middle of the road church but is now being steered on the straight and narrow fundy path.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:

    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    AND, if the women of the church could see what was happening was wrong and stood up, en masse, and said, “No!” things would change. What would they do, shun all of them? If individual church members stopped supporting these wolves, the whole thing would collapse.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    f individual church members stopped supporting these wolves, the whole thing would collapse.

    Exactly. Close wallet and don’t give a dime. Turn and walk out the door.


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    @ Lydia:

    A positive thing is after that incident, more people started to question. And several left the church. It did get more people to thinking. But overall it’s a pretty passive bunch. Mostly older people or very young Christians who are young couples and families.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    Oh, the churche “loved them” and “supported them” but only after hammering them with the should’ves and you sinner you.

    This is so bad for abuse victims. They are constantly told about the goodness of God yet, in their eyes, God did nothing to help them in their situation, and they were in the situation because of abuse in the Church. Then, the “adults” in the Church handle the situation poorly and further abuse the victims. It is sick!!


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    One of the little people wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:

    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    AND, if the women of the church could see what was happening was wrong and stood up, en masse, and said, “No!” things would change. What would they do, shun all of them? If individual church members stopped supporting these wolves, the whole thing would collapse.

    But women can’t. Even in the year 2016. In many churches in my former denomination they can’t question or cause a fuss. It’s a sick reality but they can’t because they’ll be treated like rebellious feminist Rebels, or they’ll just be ignored as emotional women. Probably both.


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    @ Ken F:

    The non Calvinists are just as bad in tolerating child sexual abuse. Its a churchwide problem.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    @ Ken F:

    The non Calvinists are just as bad in tolerating child sexual abuse. Its a churchwide problem.

    Amen. My former denom was definitely not Calvinistic and would debate it every chance they got. But it’s still a huge issue in the ranks. (Look at Schaap, Hyles, the BJU GRACE report, etc)


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    Lydia wrote:

    “Frankly, this is why churches get into trouble. He (Viola and pastors) get to determine what constitutes “legitimate evidence.”. He gets to do the investigation. He gets to determine if it is “clear” that the abuse is occurring. This is dangerous. I am sure he thinks he is being “biblical”, but he is mistaken.”
    Viola and Zens turned out to be great disappointments to me a few years back. I just don’t see how he can go to Matthew 18 and walk away with that interpretation when it comes to possible sexual perversion. We are talking about crimes that involve intricate grooming and secrecy which invites speculation and what some perceive as gossip just trying to get to truth.
    It is so hard for victims to speak up at all. They often have to go through a period of processing what happened with an undeveloped young mind and they usually blame themselves for trusting the criminal con pervert. Churches and Christians leaders just pile on with the whole gossip shtick. The very people the victim should be able to trust, turn on them.

    I am utterly convinced that the men and “most” pastors have no understanding about abuse. I a former pastor (when I was still in the church) about handling suspected abuse. They wanted abuse to be reported to them so they could make inquiries before someone’s life might be ruined because of a false allegation!!! They are more concerned about a false allegation than the possible victim. It blew my mind. They also have no understanding how they could mess up an investigation by approaching an alleged perpetrator. They just don’t get it(.)


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    Bridget wrote:

    I a former pastor

    A former pastor


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    Lydia wrote:

    A church cannot intimidate a witness because it is a voluntary association of protected beliefs……..or so I have found.

    Correct. But it’s the pastors/elders who are giving orders, threats, etc. Those are criminal acts that Obstruct(ion) (of) Justice.

    Criminal acts are NOT protected under the First Amendment. Orders to comply as part of a Membership Covenant also are not enforceable and are illegal in the United States: You can’t “contract” for criminal/illegal acts.

    Our country needs to change and these guys need to get arrested and prosecuted for these crimes.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:
    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.
    AND, if the women of the church could see what was happening was wrong and stood up, en masse, and said, “No!” things would change. What would they do, shun all of them? If individual church members stopped supporting these wolves, the whole thing would collapse.

    Haven’t there been stories of women in villages who stood up and said they weren’t putting up with a bunch of nonsense, wouldn’t get married until the men changed their ways in the village(s), etc. It worked!


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I notice that the words *troublemaker* and *whistleblower* both have the same number of syllables. Just cuz that’s the same doesn’t mean they mean the same. Just sayin’ and sayin’ it just.

    A whistleblower IS troublemaker for those in charge. Making trouble for bad people is a righteous act.

    Good on this blog and everyone in these churches for not letting up. It’ going to take a lot more of that for any of this negligence to change.

    I think we need a ‘gossip is good’ campaign speech, ala wall street (?).


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    A positive thing is after that incident, more people started to question. And several left the church. It did get more people to thinking. But overall it’s a pretty passive bunch. Mostly older people or very young Christians who are young couples and families.

    I am always sorry it takes ruined lives for some of us to wake up.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    But women can’t. Even in the year 2016. In many churches in my former denomination they can’t question or cause a fuss. It’s a sick reality but they can’t because they’ll be treated like rebellious feminist Rebels, or they’ll just be ignored as emotional women. Probably both.

    Actually, women can, they do not, because they believe the lie that they are powerless. We need to understand who we are IN CHRIST and tell these false shepherds to stop ravaging the Lord’s sheep. What the church needs now is first a healthy dose of repentance, then add some discernment and wisdom. Or let God clean house. His way can be very messy, just look at the Catholics.


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    @ One of the little people:

    A sick system as you describe can only function when women are silent.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    A positive thing is after that incident, more people started to question. And several left the church. It did get more people to thinking. But overall it’s a pretty passive bunch. Mostly older people or very young Christians who are young couples and families.

    I am always sorry it takes ruined lives for some of us to wake up.

    Agreed. 🙁

    We did have one couple who challenged it. The wife was a LEO and was horrified at how it was handled. Sadly it didn’t go anywhere and they ended up taking their kids and moving to a better church.


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    @ I fear a cage:

    A sick system as you describe can only function if the women are silent. The emperor is naked.


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    Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    A church cannot intimidate a witness because it is a voluntary association of protected beliefs……..or so I have found.
    Correct. But it’s the pastors/elders who are giving orders, threats, etc. Those are criminal acts that Obstruct(ion) (of) Justice.
    Criminal acts are NOT protected under the First Amendment. Orders to comply as part of a Membership Covenant also are not enforceable and are illegal in the United States: You can’t “contract” for criminal/illegal acts.
    Our country needs to change and these guys need to get arrested and prosecuted for these crimes.

    I want to understand this, I really do. Unless the one being intimidated views it as intimidation and not just correct teaching, what can be done? The one being intimidated goes along as part of their belief system. ( 13 year old girls need better parents!)


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to. 🙁

    What was the reasoning behind it? What was it supposed to accomplish?


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    @ Bridget:

    Every single pastor oriented blog I have read over 10 years on this issue zeros in on “false accusations” and/or the “instant repentance” of the pervert con. Every. Single. One.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    I lived in Memphis several years ago, and it always amazed me how corrupt the city is.

    What a shame to see the church complicit in that instead of shining like a beacon on a hill.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    But women can’t. Even in the year 2016. In many churches in my former denomination they can’t question or cause a fuss. It’s a sick reality but they can’t because they’ll be treated like rebellious feminist Rebels, or they’ll just be ignored as emotional women. Probably both.

    Actually, women can, they do not, because they believe the lie that they are powerless. We need to understand who we are IN CHRIST and tell these false shepherds to stop ravaging the Lord’s sheep. What the church needs now is first a healthy dose of repentance, then add some discernment and wisdom. Or let God clean house. His way can be very messy, just look at the Catholics.

    Yes!


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:

    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    13?? That is so awful!

    I don’t think I would be responsible for my reaction if someone told me to ‘shun’ someone for something like this.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    If individual church members stopped supporting these wolves, the whole thing would collapse.

    That’s the truth. The whole thing really is a house of cards. But the people don’t realize it.


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    siteseer wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    What was the reasoning behind it? What was it supposed to accomplish?

    From what I understood the night it all came out, it was because played a part in the sin and bore responsibility in it. They were not allowed to speak to anyone in the church, or us to them. They were not allowed to sit with the youth or take part in any youth activities, go to Sunday school or to sing in the choir. They were to come to church, go straight to the pew and stay there until service was over.

    “Tainted” is how some in the church and all the leadership afterwards view them. Oh it isn’t overt, but it’s there under the service. Watching then more closer than the other teens, saying they have issues and to watch who befriends them, etc. all done in humble love of course. *eye roll* funny thing is another church member, about a year later, shacked up with a man and became pregnant, and the church turned a blind eye to her deliberate sin. But 13 year old molestation/sexual abuse victims get hauled up in front of the church for disciplining. I still get angry when I think about it.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    What was the reasoning behind it? What was it supposed to accomplish?

    From what I understood the night it all came out, it was because played a part in the sin and bore responsibility in it. They were not allowed to speak to anyone in the church, or us to them. They were not allowed to sit with the youth or take part in any youth activities, go to Sunday school or to sing in the choir. They were to come to church, go straight to the pew and stay there until service was over.

    “Tainted” is how some in the church and all the leadership afterwards view them. Oh it isn’t overt, but it’s there under the service. Watching then more closer than the other teens, saying they have issues and to watch who befriends them, etc. all done in humble love of course. *eye roll* funny thing is another church member, about a year later, shacked up with a man and became pregnant, and the church turned a blind eye to her deliberate sin. But 13 year old molestation/sexual abuse victims get hauled up in front of the church for disciplining. I still get angry when I think about it.


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    @ JH:

    “The Bible Belt hates going after pastors and some will do what they can to look the other way or do the bare minimum. The mainstream press is almost as bad. This makes it harder for victims to come forward.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    but, dang, if there isn’t a story here for investigative journalism, titled “Redeemed From the Law, Above The Law”. or something like that.

    never ceases to amaze me how the pursuit of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit can bring out the absolute worst in people.

    so disillusioning


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    From what I understood the night it all came out, it was because played a part in the sin and bore responsibility in it. They were not allowed to speak to anyone in the church, or us to them. They were not allowed to sit with the youth or take part in any youth activities, go to Sunday school or to sing in the choir. They were to come to church, go straight to the pew and stay there until service was over.

    “Tainted” is how some in the church and all the leadership afterwards view them. Oh it isn’t overt, but it’s there under the service. Watching then more closer than the other teens, saying they have issues and to watch who befriends them, etc. all done in humble love of course. *eye roll* funny thing is another church member, about a year later, shacked up with a man and became pregnant, and the church turned a blind eye to her deliberate sin. But 13 year old molestation/sexual abuse victims get hauled up in front of the church for disciplining. I still get angry when I think about it.

    This is so sad. It plays out time after time in churches across this country.

    I was talking to members of a church I formerly attended. The church hired a youth pastor who groomed and took liberties with one of the young women. When she turned to adults in the church she was resented and accused of either lying or seducing the man. Eventually it became clear that the man really was a pedophile. At that point, the church quietly fired him, sent him on his way free to do the whole thing again somewhere else, and everyone was angry at the young woman and shunned her- not because they were told to, but because they basically wished she didn’t exist- I think because they didn’t want their bubble of being in a perfect church burst. Pride.

    This was not an IFB or Calvinist church, it was a community Bible church.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    The non Calvinists are just as bad in tolerating child sexual abuse. Its a churchwide problem.

    I don’t think Calvinists have a monopoly on wrong views of God. I’m trying to understand if there is a reason why this seems to be tolerated in church when it would never be tolerated anywhere else. What is it that makes difference. Churches should be the last place where this happens, but the reality if far different. Is there some kind of root cause that can be addressed? Can we discover what fuels it so that we can be better equipped to combat it?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    but, dang, if there isn’t a story here for investigative journalism, titled “Redeemed From the Law, Above The Law”. or something like that.

    Investigative journalists are my heroes. They are often the only thing standing in the way of corruption.


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    @ siteseer:

    I really don’t think churches are safe places. maybe they never have been. My husband and I comfort each other by reminding ourselves church life is not the Christian life. An abundant life in Christ is a 24/7 walk. Not a Sunday in a building meeting. But it still gets discouraging.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    What was the reasoning behind it? What was it supposed to accomplish?

    From what I understood the night it all came out, it was because played a part in the sin and bore responsibility in it. They were not allowed to speak to anyone in the church, or us to them. They were not allowed to sit with the youth or take part in any youth activities, go to Sunday school or to sing in the choir. They were to come to church, go straight to the pew and stay there until service was over.

    “Tainted” is how some in the church and all the leadership afterwards view them. Oh it isn’t overt, but it’s there under the service. Watching then more closer than the other teens, saying they have issues and to watch who befriends them, etc. all done in humble love of course. *eye roll* funny thing is another church member, about a year later, shacked up with a man and became pregnant, and the church turned a blind eye to her deliberate sin. But 13 year old molestation/sexual abuse victims get hauled up in front of the church for disciplining. I still get angry when I think about it.

    These ignorant people covered up a CRIME!!! A 25 year old MAN sexually abusing 13 year old CHILDREN is a perverted criminal and should be dealt with severely by the authorities. Their parents were fools to tolerate this.


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    Bridget wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    Oh, the churche “loved them” and “supported them” but only after hammering them with the should’ves and you sinner you.

    This is so bad for abuse victims. They are constantly told about the goodness of God yet, in their eyes, God did nothing to help them in their situation, and they were in the situation because of abuse in the Church. Then, the “adults” in the Church handle the situation poorly and further abuse the victims. It is sick!!

    There was an article I was looking at earlier about elizabeth smart challenging the mormon purity culture. Apparently there was an awful analogy about a board, everytime you have sex apparently, you are getting ‘nailed’ and even if the nails are pulled out you are still full of holes. Awful. They told this with her sitting right there, knowing what she had been through!!!


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    One of the little people wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    What was the reasoning behind it? What was it supposed to accomplish?

    From what I understood the night it all came out, it was because played a part in the sin and bore responsibility in it. They were not allowed to speak to anyone in the church, or us to them. They were not allowed to sit with the youth or take part in any youth activities, go to Sunday school or to sing in the choir. They were to come to church, go straight to the pew and stay there until service was over.

    “Tainted” is how some in the church and all the leadership afterwards view them. Oh it isn’t overt, but it’s there under the service. Watching then more closer than the other teens, saying they have issues and to watch who befriends them, etc. all done in humble love of course. *eye roll* funny thing is another church member, about a year later, shacked up with a man and became pregnant, and the church turned a blind eye to her deliberate sin. But 13 year old molestation/sexual abuse victims get hauled up in front of the church for disciplining. I still get angry when I think about it.

    These ignorant people covered up a CRIME!!! A 25 year old MAN sexually abusing 13 year old CHILDREN is a perverted criminal and should be dealt with severely by the authorities. Their parents were fools to tolerate this.

    No, this incident was not covered up nas soon as it was discovered, someone told the pastor and the pastor immediately called the police and handed the guy over to the authorities. I do have to hand it to him that he handled that part better than i was expecting. The abuser WAS dealt with immediately and is now serving a prison sentence. They still screwed up on caring for the victims, but they got the not covering it up part right.


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    Ken F wrote:

    One of the little people wrote:

    The non Calvinists are just as bad in tolerating child sexual abuse. Its a churchwide problem.

    I don’t think Calvinists have a monopoly on wrong views of God. I’m trying to understand if there is a reason why this seems to be tolerated in church when it would never be tolerated anywhere else. What is it that makes difference. Churches should be the last place where this happens, but the reality if far different. Is there some kind of root cause that can be addressed? Can we discover what fuels it so that we can be better equipped to combat it?

    Unfortunately, covering up child sexual abuse seems to be an institutional problem both inside and outside the church. The Penn State Scandal comes to mind; however, it should NEVER be tolerated by those who claim the name of Jesus. It is a sin. Period.


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    @ I fear a cage:

    “…who was already tired of being a woman in Christian culture anyway.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    yes, isn’t it tiresome.

    The original good news is commodified into a product that is truly bad news for women. Makes even a male-centric work environment a place of respite in comparison.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Bridget:

    Every single pastor oriented blog I have read over 10 years on this issue zeros in on “false accusations” and/or the “instant repentance” of the pervert con. Every. Single. One.

    There has been a lot of press on false accusations lately, and I’ve seen it in conservative circles too. With the Roger Ailes thing I said basically that from the vibe I get off him, I bet these accusations are true. Then men are all ‘ooh, you can’t decide based on vibes, false accusations’ blahblahblah. And there are false accusations and in a court of law, you have to prove things. But I can and will base my personal opinions off ‘vibes’ every day and twice on sunday. And now there are tapes apparently. So, vibes win. Idiots.

    I think the men over identify and think they are going to be hit with a false accusation, but they have NO ability to empathize with a confused 13 year old girl. And if these pastor men cannot look to the safety of someone who they do not identify with they do not need to be pastors. And if these men cannot look to the safety of women, they darn sure need women in charge too who CAN. Because they are doing an insanely poor job of this whole pastoring business, on the whole, in regards to his issue.


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    @ I fear a cage:

    “These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    how… why do people obey tyrants in clerical collars like this?


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    One of the little people wrote:

    Unfortunately, covering up child sexual abuse seems to be an institutional problem both inside and outside the church.

    From all the reports, it seems like it is worse inside the church. That suggests there is something about church culture that makes it more tolerable in a very sick way.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    But 13 year old molestation/sexual abuse victims get hauled up in front of the church for disciplining.

    THAT is what I would call ‘spiritual abuse’ big time.
    The ‘church’ shamed itself, or at least those ‘in leadership’ who ordered such abuse; and those who followed the leadership in turning their faces away from those victims by shunning them …. nothing of grace there in that place, no. Rather a high degree of intimidation of witnesses in an effort to shut everyone up …. always backfires in that, when the word gets out, it’s like ringing the dinner bell for predators to check out the newly-confirmed haven for evil.

    ‘Shaming’ victims is a little like the Samaritan coming upon the wounded man somewhere between Jerusalem and Jericho, and pouring salt on his wounds ….. to cause an increase in the suffering of a victim is to display a much greater penchant for evil than the mere indifference of doing nothing.


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    Interesting what Greg Laurie wrote about in his column today… http://www.wnd.com/2016/09/what-god-hates/?cat_orig=faith “What God Hates”

    Apparently Greg Laurie is God’s spokesperson…

    It’s rife with every single cliche silencing tactic there is.

    Does Greg Laurie have something to hide? What does he have to fear from the truth being spoken that he would go to this extent to muzzle God’s people?


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    @ I fear a cage:
    Black as white and white as black. Upside down and downside up. Back in the day, a perfect man was sentenced to be crucified for his “crimes”.


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    Ken F wrote:

    One of the little people wrote:
    The non Calvinists are just as bad in tolerating child sexual abuse. Its a churchwide problem.
    I don’t think Calvinists have a monopoly on wrong views of God. I’m trying to understand if there is a reason why this seems to be tolerated in church when it would never be tolerated anywhere else. What is it that makes difference. Churches should be the last place where this happens, but the reality if far different. Is there some kind of root cause that can be addressed? Can we discover what fuels it so that we can be better equipped to combat it?

    My vote is on spiritual authoritarianism. I saw horrible corruption and spiritual abuse outside the Neo Cal bubble. It wasn’t fundamentalism either. It was just hidden in the mega world by the show and stage persona. People never questioned anything. They never saw a budget, either, yet gave freely. I once joked that pew sitters could see the celebrity pastor put a dead body in his trunk and rationalize it away as really a good thing. It really has gotten that shallow.

    The difference with the Neo Cals is that the authoritarianism is inherent in the doctrine. Their God is authoritarian and angry.


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    @ mirele:

    “This is the attitude which forces state legislators to bring forward legislation making church staff into mandatory reporters, because people like Viola want to handle crimes via Matthew 18.

    I could barely type this between wanting to pound my head into the desk and covering my face with my hands. I mean, to me, it’s a no-brainer, you think a child is being harmed, you report it, right?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    but that would spoil the harmony and ruin the ‘happiest place on earth’ selling point. what would people think?? what would the pastor peers think??

    the flow of revenue & gained power would be jeopardized. the quest for personal significance would be thwarted.

    (but this is old news)


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    @ siteseer:

    Dude, it says “God hates: “a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community”

    So don’t lie. Truth isn’t false witness. And the person stirring up ‘conflict’ in the community is the person doing evil, not the person reporting it and trying to help the victims and ensure there are no more victims.

    They have this gossip stuff completely backwards!!!


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    JYJames wrote:

    Black as white and white as black. Upside down and downside up. Back in the day, a perfect man was sentenced to be crucified for his “crimes”.

    “and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity…..

    …And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? (W.B. Yeats)


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    @ siteseer:

    Sorry, I cut out what he said right after the verse he quotes, which is not what the verse is saying at all.

    “This is a person who spreads rumors, who spreads innuendo, who slanders others. God hates that.”

    It’s not a person who spreads rumors god hates, it’s who spreads lies. Truth is a defense against slander. Get it right.


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    @ I fear a cage:

    “…blistering PM cloaked in Good Christian Girl language, reminding me not to slander, gossip, to give people grace, even ASKING about my experience with God’s grace. Words laced in so much disgusting Christianese I actually doubted myself for about 5 seconds.”
    +++++++++++++++

    seems to me there’s a need for Church-o-holic’s Anonymous.


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    Google review page of a World Mission Society Church of God (bona fide cult) in my area:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=world+mission+society+church+of+god&oq=world+mission+so&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l4.1800j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#lrd=0x864c21d0cc6bb8d3:0x2d0f04499cb3af50,1,

    Note the one that mentions “slander”; people slander against this great church. That’s why people like Todd Pruitt need to be more careful about using that word.


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    @ Ken F:

    “Fellowship Memphis is an Acts29 church according to the Acts29 website, which means it is new-Calvinist. … Here is what they believe about God: “The first person of the Trinity orders and directs all things according to his purpose and pleasure. He has created humanity to bring him glory and honor, through his grace.””
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    not for joy? not for the pleasure of relationship?

    & that perfunctory ‘grace’ footnote …


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    Lea wrote:

    they have NO ability to empathize with a confused 13 year old girl

    Keep women out of leadership, another issue, and this is what you get. SCOTUS Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg recalls a case where a teenage middle school girl was strip-searched by a group of male officers, and the other Justices saw no harm. Justice Ginsburg explained the devastating long-term effects for the girl. The guy Justices, bless their hearts, didn’t get it without the help of their female Justice.


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    Lydia wrote:

    My vote is on spiritual authoritarianism. I saw horrible corruption and spiritual abuse outside the Neo Cal bubble. It wasn’t fundamentalism either. It was just hidden in the mega world by the show and stage persona. People never questioned anything. They never saw a budget, either, yet gave freely. I once joked that pew sitters could see the celebrity pastor put a dead body in his trunk and rationalize it away as really a good thing. It really has gotten that shallow.

    I think you have put your finger on it. The mentality of God-ordained leader and unquestioning followers. Add to this the pride on the part of both leaders and followers to keep the organization looking good in the eyes of the world.


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    I have told this story maybe two other times, one here and one on another blog. Never in real life because of how churches retaliate, which is SOP. I can totally understand why people say things concerning church issues using pseudonyms because almost all churches I have known in the real world will retaliate and, especially the evangelical brand, will actively attack those expressing criticism. this is the Quick version I was in a ministry for about ten years, I worked at least 40 hours a week volunteer time for the group for ten years. There were some safety / communication issues that really concerned me so I called the national group because my concerns were not addressed at the local issues. Basically, a voice mail was left on my phone telling me what a vile evil person I was and to go away. Which I did, I could have retaliated and maybe even shut down the ministry. Eventually, things got better and my concerns were addressed as I sort of applied pressure through other avenues. It was nothing to do with abuse etc otherwise I would have contacted the authorities right away.

    After I eviscerated myself and apologized for being a waste of air we “reconciled.” I went back to a few meetings but I just did not trust them and it also hurt so bad after being told the things about myself. Church has always been a painful place, where you are taught first that God loathes the very ground you walk on and that every atom in your body is an offense to a Holy God who from the foundations of eternity planned your personal eternal damnation. That was the liberal version. It was all colored in flowery language but that is what was taught.

    My situation was very mild concerned to what these kids and their families went through or the people who lose their jobs, their houses, their families, their friends, who are physically intimidated / assaulted etc. I have come to know a Jesus who stands with the castoffs and the “least of these” a Christ that reconciles through justice and honesty about what has happened. We should try a bit to be the same. I know this is naive of me but I would love to go to a church where I don't have to live in terror of their God or of the leadership.


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    Stan wrote:

    Note the one that mentions “slander”; people slander against this great church. That’s why people like Todd Pruitt need to be more careful about using that word.

    I wonder if they get extra points for writing a rave review.

    I have been a member of this church for 8 years despite the slander against it, I know this is one true church!

    There’s gotta be a story here…


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    Lydia wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    A church cannot intimidate a witness because it is a voluntary association of protected beliefs……..or so I have found.
    Correct. But it’s the pastors/elders who are giving orders, threats, etc. Those are criminal acts that Obstruct(ion) (of) Justice.
    Criminal acts are NOT protected under the First Amendment. Orders to comply as part of a Membership Covenant also are not enforceable and are illegal in the United States: You can’t “contract” for criminal/illegal acts.
    Our country needs to change and these guys need to get arrested and prosecuted for these crimes.
    I want to understand this, I really do. Unless the one being intimidated views it as intimidation and not just correct teaching, what can be done? The one being intimidated goes along as part of their belief system. ( 13 year old girls need better parents!)

    You raised some good points, Lydia. Let me try to answer them. The justice system depends on witnesses being able to report to law enforcement and for the government (state or federal) to be able to prosecute a defendant for criminal acts. It would be a useless system if witnesses could be intimidated and there was no punishment for defendants. Therefore it’s a crime. Specifically, a felony.
    http://www.joebakerlaw.com/witness-coercion.html

    A prosecutor has to prove the elements of a crime occurred and a jury will be given jury instructions containing those elements to see if they agree beyond a reasonable doubt.
    (In civil cases its a preponderance of the evidence.)

    A child who is “going along” as “part of the faith” because clergy are using that over her head, is still being intimidated. The clergy can be arrested and prosecuted and end up with felony convictions and jail time if convicted.

    Additionally, in TN. everyone is a mandated child abuse reporter.
    https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/clergymandated.pdf#page=4&view=Full-text excerpts of State laws


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    elastigirl wrote:

    but that would spoil the harmony and ruin the ‘happiest place on earth’ selling point. what would people think?? what would the pastor peers think??

    the flow of revenue & gained power would be jeopardized. the quest for personal significance would be thwarted.

    (but this is old news)

    Old news maybe but as true as ever.


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    Lydia wrote:

    The difference with the Neo Cals is that the authoritarianism is inherent in the doctrine. Their God is authoritarian and angry.

    This.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    They still screwed up on caring for the victims, but they got the not covering it up part right.

    It is not that hard to get it right, these “leaders” are not second graders. An incomplete grade handling the abuse of children is a failing grade, especially when you miss on the important part.


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    siteseer wrote:

    I have been a member of this church for 8 years despite the slander against it, I know this is one true church!

    There’s gotta be a story here…

    Yes 🙂 He ‘doth protest too much, methinks’.


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    siteseer wrote:

    the show and stage persona

    Voila: http://bit.ly/2c1dAAG
    Show and stage and nothing else, as reported BY JEFF SHARLET this past week in Esquire. AFter reporting on all types of churches great and small, Sharlet says about Rich Wilkerson’s Vous Church: “But never before Vous had I encountered a church that seemed so completely empty.”

    Show on a stage to attract an audience that watches and empties their pocket books. Empty. While children are being violated by church leaders and mentors à la Bill Cosby.


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    Bill M wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    They still screwed up on caring for the victims, but they got the not covering it up part right.

    It is not that hard to get it right, these “leaders” are not second graders. An incomplete grade handling the abuse of children is a failing grade, especially when you miss on the important part.

    Definitely. Which is why i couldn’t stand being there anymore.


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    @ JYJames:
    She needs to prove the other ones saw no harm. I don’t necessarily believer her, either.


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    Christiane wrote:

    (W.B. Yeats)

    Wonderful quote. Thanks so much, Christiane.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    but the teen victims were also publicly church disciplined and were formally shunned by the church for 3 months.

    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    Holding 13 year old girls accountable or at least partly at fault for their be molested? Goodness I can’t believe someone would do this. Thirteen is quite young especially for girls in this type of church environment to even think about suggesting they had a part.

    This is why we have laws protecting children and age of consent laws etc. At 13 a child hasn’t matured to the point of being able to fully think and give consent. That is why they call this statutory rape etc. Even when someone is above the age of consent when the child is in a position of being under a person such as a school teacher as this church leader apparently was it is still illegal.

    Just shocking that a leader can have the ignorance to try and blame 13 year old girls for this.
    A shame that the regular church members stood for this and didn’t vote with their feet (leave the church) and their wallets.


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    @ Lydia:
    Then insert other examples. The point being, women and men in leadership together can have a more empathetic perspective. My guess is that empathy is lost on the male leadership only crowd.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    Just shocking that a leader can have the ignorance to try and blame 13 year old girls for this.
    A shame that the regular church members stood for this and didn’t vote with their feet (leave the church) and their wallets.

    Yes, it is a terrible shame.

    Those members? They DID vote …. sadly, they voted WHEN they stayed and paid

    it is said that when one person in the Body of Christ hurts, the whole Body hurts with them

    so when a group doesn’t behave like the Body of Christ and takes the side of the persecutors of the innocent, I’m not sure you can call this group ‘Church’ in the same sense of the Body of Christ, no. I’ll put more graphically: if St. Michael the Archangel had the opportunity, he would likely take a flame-thrower to this miserable crowd


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    The gradual normalization of sexual immorality being imposed on society by various people in our U.S. federal government seems to me to be a corrupting influence on numbers of contemporary church leaders. The arrogance and insults I experienced here in northern Virginia with Arlington Baptist Church I think had absolutely no less than a bit to do with my refusal to engage in homosexual innuendo with a former government contract employer.

    Having been a man viciously marginalized by a church leadership with that testimony of mine, it enrages me when considering how they might treat women and children with like experiences who are identifiably vulnerable.

    A vomit-inducing fixation on power. It should exit the churches in immediate fashion.


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    JYJames wrote:

    The point being, women and men in leadership together can have a more empathetic perspective. My guess is that empathy is lost on the male leadership only crowd.

    Are you saying that men in general are less empathetic, or men of this type in particular are less empathetic?


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    Ken F wrote:

    JYJames wrote:

    The point being, women and men in leadership together can have a more empathetic perspective. My guess is that empathy is lost on the male leadership only crowd.

    Are you saying that men in general are less empathetic, or men of this type in particular are less empathetic?

    Wouldn’t the type of men who adhered to ‘male headship’ be either raised in that model to have less empathy towards women and children?

    And wouldn’t men who were ALREADY less empathic towards women and children be more likely to be drawn to the kind of authoritarian control awarded to males in the doctrine of ‘male headship’?

    ?


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    @ Ken F:
    I’m saying with regard to dealing with the human race,(men, women, and children of both genders), IMHO, it is good for both men and women to work together for solutions and to address issues.

    Therefore, those who believe in male leadership only, are flying on one wing, so to speak.

    And I wonder, upon reflection, if the male leadership only folks are less empathetic because they want only the male point of view in leadership. Not because they are male, but because they fundamentally refuse to work side-by-side with female leadership. I would pose the same question regarding female only leadership – but does that point of view even exist?

    Does that make sense? What do you think?


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    @ Christiane:
    Thanks, Christiane, well-stated – perhaps you are a better communicator than yours truly here.


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    JYJames wrote:

    The point being, women and men in leadership together can have a more empathetic perspective. My guess is that empathy is lost on the male leadership only crowd.

    I don’t think it has to be, I think men are capable of understanding these things. But these particular men are just not. How much is the emphasis on men above women, how much is protection of friends, how much is a circle the wagons around ‘pastors’…I don’t know. Most decent men should be horrified by this sort of thing. Something has gone really wrong in church that they are not.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    but the teen victims were also publicly church disciplined and were formally shunned by the church for 3 months.

    I fear a cage wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always visited with the girls even during the shunning. Leadership saw it and it ticked them off but they kept quiet about it. These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to.

    Holding 13 year old girls accountable or at least partly at fault for their be molested? Goodness I can’t believe someone would do this. Thirteen is quite young especially for girls in this type of church environment to even think about suggesting they had a part.

    This is why we have laws protecting children and age of consent laws etc. At 13 a child hasn’t matured to the point of being able to fully think and give consent. That is why they call this statutory rape etc. Even when someone is above the age of consent when the child is in a position of being under a person such as a school teacher as this church leader apparently was it is still illegal.

    Just shocking that a leader can have the ignorance to try and blame 13 year old girls for this.
    A shame that the regular church members stood for this and didn’t vote with their feet (leave the church) and their wallets.

    They were 12 when it started. It went on about 13 months. 🙁 he was slick. It was on church property, school property and his home. They were sisters and neither of them knew the other was also being molested. He had them each convinced that they were his special girl.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:

    Just shocking that a leader can have the ignorance to try and blame 13 year old girls for this.
    A shame that the regular church members stood for this and didn’t vote with their feet (leave the church) and their wallets.

    Yes, it is a terrible shame.

    Those members? They DID vote …. sadly, they voted WHEN they stayed and paid

    it is said that when one person in the Body of Christ hurts, the whole Body hurts with them

    so when a group doesn’t behave like the Body of Christ and takes the side of the persecutors of the innocent, I’m not sure you can call this group ‘Church’ in the same sense of the Body of Christ, no. I’ll put more graphically: if St. Michael the Archangel had the opportunity, he would likely take a flame-thrower to this miserable crowd

    That’s exactly what my husband said when I told him about this. “That isn’t church.”


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    @ I fear a cage:

    Awful. 12?


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    siteseer wrote:

    It’s rife with every single cliche silencing tactic there is.

    I just read it. I find it interesting how often pastors extrapolate the story of Joseph and David’s treatment of Saul to admonish their hearers not to gossip. The reason we know the stories of the brothers’ and Saul’s wicked behavior is because it’s in the Bible and read by countless millions, if not billions. Who do these pastors think reported these very private events to the scribes who wrote them down for them to be read by said countless millions? We’re Joseph and David guilty of gossip?


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    @ siteseer:

    I would guess it might have something to do with the backlash over his interview with Mel Gibson last week.


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    @Lydia,

    I have one answer to your question but it’s waiting to clear “customs”.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    “This is the attitude which forces state legislators to bring forward legislation making church staff into mandatory reporters, because people like Viola want to handle crimes via Matthew 18.

    I could barely type this between wanting to pound my head into the desk and covering my face with my hands. I mean, to me, it’s a no-brainer, you think a child is being harmed, you report it, right?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    Which is the reason I support legislation making all adults mandated reporters in every state and lets do away with the statute of limitations on child sexual abuse too. Of course, that means defeating the Catholic Church lobbyists first.


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    JYJames wrote:

    : “But never before Vous had I encountered a church that seemed so completely empty.”

    It’s what you’d expect from a church who’s name makes it all about “Vous”.


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    I fear a cage wrote:

    They were 12 when it started. It went on about 13 months. he was slick. It was on church property, school property and his home. They were sisters and neither of them knew the other was also being molested. He had them each convinced that they were his special girl.

    This story just gets worse and worse. Why did their parents stay?


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    Glenn wrote:

    The gradual normalization of sexual immorality being imposed on society by various people in our U.S. federal government seems to me to be a corrupting influence on numbers of contemporary church leaders.

    Trying to pin everything on gays? The federal government? That dog won’t hunt. Abusive clergy are responsible for their own sins. Nobody else is responsible for them.
    Abusive church leaders fundamentally don’t like God, aren’t humble toward Him, otherwise they wouldn’t do what they do. My gay boss wasn’t responsible for my ex-pastors/elders many abuses of the flock. My gay boss, in point of fact, was a far nicer human being than ANY of my ex-pastors/elders who wouldn’t think twice about lying about the saints, threatening them, including senior citizens at church.

    People are voters and tax payers. They simply want to practice the free exercise of their rights as voters and tax payers. I can’t blame them.

    I always say to people, “Can you make someone get a certain haircut.” They say, “No. No of course not.” And they act shocked. But the same people want to order a voter/tax payer’s/adult’s sex life/choices/dating life/personal life.

    *Note: Off-topic link to the U.S. Supreme Court ruling regarding gay marriage and the constitutional issues they addressed. This is to inform people about the legal issues that the The Court addressed.
    https://www.oyez.org/cases/2014/14-556

    The arrogance and insults I experienced here in northern Virginia with Arlington Baptist Church I think had absolutely no less than a bit to do with my refusal to engage in homosexual innuendo with a former government contract employer.

    Please elaborate as to what happened, what was said.

    Having been a man viciously marginalized by a church leadership with that testimony of mine,

    Please elaborate.

    it enrages me when considering how they might treat women and children with like experiences who are identifiably vulnerable.

    It has NOTHING to do with gays. It has everything to do with these church leaders/men’s relationship with God. They are proud. They don’t care. They aren’t true Shepherds despite their many claims.

    A vomit-inducing fixation on power. It should exit the churches in immediate fashion.

    Or humble themselves. Agreed they have a fixation on power.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    JYJames wrote:
    The point being, women and men in leadership together can have a more empathetic perspective. My guess is that empathy is lost on the male leadership only crowd.
    Are you saying that men in general are less empathetic, or men of this type in particular are less empathetic?
    Wouldn’t the type of men who adhered to ‘male headship’ be either raised in that model to have less empathy towards women and children?
    And wouldn’t men who were ALREADY less empathic towards women and children be more likely to be drawn to the kind of authoritarian control awarded to males in the doctrine of ‘male headship’?
    ?

    Yes.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    We’re Joseph and David guilty of gossip?

    And what about Paul writing about the way he rebuked Peter? What he did would be like standing up and confronting your pastor in the middle of a sermon and then going home and posting the details on FB. Examples of such “gossip” are littered throughout the Bible. Exposing hypocrisy and abuse is not gossip in the way these churches and teachers describe it. A better description is “doing the right thing.”


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    Steve240 wrote:

    Just shocking that a leader can have the ignorance to try and blame 13 year old girls for this.
    A shame that the regular church members stood for this and didn’t vote with their feet (leave the church) and their wallets.

    This continues to amaze me, story after story. By comparison the church I left suffered from plain old pig-headed authoritarian leadership, many left but most stayed. At the time I couldn’t make sense of why so many put up with it or didn’t see it. Now a year and a half later I’ve read many many stories of abusive churches such as the one “I fear a cage” writes about, these are worse than anything I witnessed, yet most hang on and continue to attend. I still can’t make sense of it.


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    JYJames wrote:

    I’m saying with regard to dealing with the human race,(men, women, and children of both genders), IMHO, it is good for both men and women to work together for solutions and to address issues.

    Therefore, those who believe in male leadership only, are flying on one wing, so to speak.

    And I wonder, upon reflection, if the male leadership only folks are less empathetic because they want only the male point of view in leadership. Not because they are male, but because they fundamentally refuse to work side-by-side with female leadership. I would pose the same question regarding female only leadership – but does that point of view even exist?

    Does that make sense? What do you think?

    I agree with you. I’ve gotten in trouble on this site every time I suggest that men and women tend to approach problems a bit differently. But I think they do, and I consider this to be a blessing because we can cover each others’ blind spots. This is why it is such a tragedy when half the church is told to shut up and color. We need each other.

    I suspect this sick toleration of abuse is less about gender and more about something else. But I have not yet figured out what it is. I’m thinking bad theology is a big part of it. But maybe there is a cultural element as well. In most of the world, it’s the leadership of the organization that seems to be doing all the denials and cover ups. But in the church it seems that many in the congregations are willing participants. Does church culture attract weak people who don’t want to rock the boat?


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    Lea wrote:

    Awful. 12?

    Utterly sick. The prophet of Islam married his youngest wife (his best friend’s daughter) when she was six, and consummated the marriage when she was nine. He was 54. So this is not just a Christian problem. But on the bright side, we have laws here that make it illegal.


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    siteseer wrote:

    Interesting what Greg Laurie wrote about in his column today… http://www.wnd.com/2016/09/what-god-hates/?cat_orig=faith “What God Hates”

    Apparently Greg Laurie is God’s spokesperson…

    Laurie uses the example of Joseph forgiving his brothers to force feed us his agenda. Using that story as an example, these authoritarian men can then expect forgiveness when circumstance forces them to bow helplessly before their victims. I welcome that day.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Just shocking that a leader can have the ignorance to try and blame 13 year old girls for this.
    A shame that the regular church members stood for this and didn’t vote with their feet (leave the church) and their wallets.
    This continues to amaze me, story after story. By comparison the church I left suffered from plain old pig-headed authoritarian leadership, many left but most stayed. At the time I couldn’t make sense of why so many put up with it or didn’t see it. Now a year and a half later I’ve read many many stories of abusive churches such as the one “I fear a cage” writes about, these are worse than anything I witnessed, yet most hang on and continue to attend. I still can’t make sense of it.

    I liken an abusive church to a domestic violence relationship. A person has to be strong enough, brave enough, and ready to leave. To go it alone. Because when they do…they will generally leave ‘it all’ behind.

    I was too stunned each time an ‘incident’ of spiritual abuse happened at my ex-church toward a dear saint. I’d ask about it, but was shut down. Others defended it.

    I had to watch godly people leave quietly, in alarm, with furtive, uneasy looks for it to start adding up that something was terribly wrong at my church.

    It was a whole bunch of things that happened, and the Holy Spirit, that got me ready to stand my ground with my pastors/elders…and they excommunicated/shunned me over it.

    There are people who stayed after me. And there are people in all kinds of bad churches. And they’re there for whatever reason. And I have to trust God to get them out.


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    Ken F wrote:

    JYJames wrote:
    I’m saying with regard to dealing with the human race,(men, women, and children of both genders), IMHO, it is good for both men and women to work together for solutions and to address issues.
    Therefore, those who believe in male leadership only, are flying on one wing, so to speak.
    And I wonder, upon reflection, if the male leadership only folks are less empathetic because they want only the male point of view in leadership. Not because they are male, but because they fundamentally refuse to work side-by-side with female leadership. I would pose the same question regarding female only leadership – but does that point of view even exist?
    Does that make sense? What do you think?
    I agree with you. I’ve gotten in trouble on this site every time I suggest that men and women tend to approach problems a bit differently. But I think they do, and I consider this to be a blessing because we can cover each others’ blind spots. This is why it is such a tragedy when half the church is told to shut up and color. We need each other.
    I suspect this sick toleration of abuse is less about gender and more about something else. But I have not yet figured out what it is. I’m thinking bad theology is a big part of it. But maybe there is a cultural element as well. In most of the world, it’s the leadership of the organization that seems to be doing all the denials and cover ups. But in the church it seems that many in the congregations are willing participants. Does church culture attract weak people who don’t want to rock the boat?

    I think that we’re a priesthood of believers and the Holy Spirit has equipped us to run our churches. I agree that imbalance, missing “a wing”, won’t get the plane off the ground and flying the correct course.

    I agree that men and women do, but not always, have different ways of seeing problems, of solving things. And yes, we do balance each other out and have 20/20 vision.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    “Fellowship Memphis is an Acts29 church according to the Acts29 website, which means it is new-Calvinist. … Here is what they believe about God: “The first person of the Trinity orders and directs all things according to his purpose and pleasure. He has created humanity to bring him glory and honor, through his grace.””
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    not for joy? not for the pleasure of relationship?
    & that perfunctory ‘grace’ footnote …

    “orders” and “directs”. Must be a joy to live with a God like that.


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    @ Ken F:

    We just don’t know if it is nature, nurture or both. As women recieved more independence and power we know they can be just as evil and cunning as men. Only a few had that historically. I have also had the displeasure to know a couple who are both narcissists.


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    Velour wrote:

    “orders” and “directs”. Must be a joy to live with a God like that.

    Exactly. And what better justification for the church leaders to “order” and “direct”? I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that if Jesus was to visit a church like this he would not say anything like, “Wow, this is exactly what I was thinking church should be.”


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    @ JYJames:
    My brain is cottony today but it seems many churches and clubs are the last vestiges of male “only” leadership. I think there are agenda driven women, too, so not sure women will solve these problems. After all, those girls have a mother. She could have refused to allow them in that church. I vote for decent human beings. Male and Female.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Laurie uses the example of Joseph forgiving his brothers to force feed us his agenda. Using that story as an example, these authoritarian men can then expect forgiveness when circumstance forces them to bow helplessly before their victims. I welcome that day.

    Right. I mean, did he actually read that bible story? He seems to suffer from some major misinterpretation of that and the ‘don’t bear false witness’ part. Of course you aren’t supposed to beat false witness! That is called lying!

    Isn’t it equally false to speak well of someone who you know is actively doing evil?


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    Ken F wrote:

    I consider this to be a blessing because we can cover each others’ blind spots. This is why it is such a tragedy when half the church is told to shut up and color. We need each other.

    This is so well-said. Thanks, Ken. “… shut up and color …” – or shut up and cook. LOL.

    This totally worked in my marriage of 30 years (he had heart failure a couple of years ago). No suppression. All expression. Everything on the table for equal consideration. Spiritual gifts acknowledged and put to good use for the glory of God. All thinking heads and loving hearts and hands on deck needed – life is complex.

    In the complexities and battles, however, God has given us tremendous resources in the two genders, 3-4 generations, a world full of diverse cultures and experiences, and 18 spiritual gifts.

    Our sons turned out well, thankfully, and both have highly-educated future lady partners.


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    Regarding Joseph forgiving his brothers. First, he tested them. He kept Simeon as hostage until the food they took back to Canaan was running out and they had to return to Egypt to buy more. Then, he had his cup hidden in Benjamin’s sack of grain so that he had an excuse to keep Ben in Egypt. Judah then offered to take Benjamin’s place so old Jacob wouldn’t be deprived of a second of Rachel’s son’s. Seeing as Judah was the one to insist on selling Joseph all those years ago, Joseph could see his brothers were changed men and were ready to reconcile. Joseph didn’t just forgive willy nilly.


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    Estelle wrote:

    Regarding Joseph forgiving his brothers. First, he tested them. He kept Simeon as hostage until the food they took back to Canaan was running out and they had to return to Egypt to buy more. Then, he had his cup hidden in Benjamin’s sack of grain so that he had an excuse to keep Ben in Egypt. Judah then offered to take Benjamin’s place so old Jacob wouldn’t be deprived of a second of Rachel’s son’s. Seeing as Judah was the one to insist on selling Joseph all those years ago, Joseph could see his brothers were changed men and were ready to reconcile. Joseph didn’t just forgive willy nilly.

    Thanks for that comment, Estelle.


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    Lydia wrote:

    My vote is on spiritual authoritarianism.

    Amen! But, here’s the problem. In the various tentacles of what we call “church” today, Jesus has almost no authority! The Living Christ has been given all authority in heaven and in earth, but church leaders do not yield to Him. So we get men running things, without ever consulting Jesus, who is ultimate authority. The whole religious mess is upside down and tumbling deeper into chaos, while Jesus waits for a few folks here and there to get it together and put Him back on the throne. We’ve lost a spiritual dimension in doing 21st century church, so we do it without God and the authority of Christ, while men rule in the flesh and not by the Spirit. And, as a result, anything can happen and does.


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    Estelle wrote:

    Regarding Joseph forgiving his brothers. First, he tested them. He kept Simeon as hostage until the food they took back to Canaan was running out and they had to return to Egypt to buy more. Then, he had his cup hidden in Benjamin’s sack of grain so that he had an excuse to keep Ben in Egypt. Judah then offered to take Benjamin’s place so old Jacob wouldn’t be deprived of a second of Rachel’s son’s. Seeing as Judah was the one to insist on selling Joseph all those years ago, Joseph could see his brothers were changed men and were ready to reconcile. Joseph didn’t just forgive willy nilly.

    And this is why women should be allowed to teach/preach in church, folks!


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    Max wrote:

    o we get men running things, without ever consulting Jesus, who is ultimate authority.

    My ex-pastor would say about the abusive, NeoCalvinist, authoritarian church he ran, “Jesus is in charge. Jesus is the pastor.” He said it like Jesus gave him a “Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.” The By-Laws told an entirely different story, as did the Membership Covenant.
    It was all Authoritarianism. All about him. No Jesus to be found…anywhere.


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    Max wrote:

    Estelle wrote:
    Regarding Joseph forgiving his brothers. First, he tested them. He kept Simeon as hostage until the food they took back to Canaan was running out and they had to return to Egypt to buy more. Then, he had his cup hidden in Benjamin’s sack of grain so that he had an excuse to keep Ben in Egypt. Judah then offered to take Benjamin’s place so old Jacob wouldn’t be deprived of a second of Rachel’s son’s. Seeing as Judah was the one to insist on selling Joseph all those years ago, Joseph could see his brothers were changed men and were ready to reconcile. Joseph didn’t just forgive willy nilly.
    And this is why women should be allowed to teach/preach in church, folks!

    +100 !!


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    Glenn wrote:

    The gradual normalization of sexual immorality being imposed on society by various people in our U.S. federal government seems to me to be a corrupting influence on numbers of contemporary church leaders.

    What many church leaders have forgotten is that the federal government is a compartment of the world, not the church. The Church of the Living God should be counter-culture to the world, not a sub-culture of it. Efforts to be “culturally-relevant” is to miss the snake in the grass. When the laws of men go contrary to the laws of God, Christians are to stand more boldly and not go with the flow. If the church loses its moral sanity, America has no hope. The Church – the real one – is the last bastion of truth in the chaos around us.


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    Velour wrote:

    My ex-pastor would say about the abusive, NeoCalvinist, authoritarian church he ran, “Jesus is in charge. Jesus is the pastor.”

    Baloney! If Jesus was in charge, there would be no abusive authoritarian control of church members. Where in Scripture does it portray Christ like that? Nor would Jesus be a NeoCalvinist!


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    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    My ex-pastor would say about the abusive, NeoCalvinist, authoritarian church he ran, “Jesus is in charge. Jesus is the pastor.”
    Baloney! If Jesus was in charge, there would be no abusive authoritarian control of church members. Where in Scripture does it portray Christ like that? Nor would Jesus be a NeoCalvinist!

    Exactly. It was all a ruse for the gullible masses.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I often wonder why we expect this to change?

    When the courts finally lose their squeamishness in going after high profile protestant offenders.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    I often wonder why we expect this to change?
    When the courts finally lose their squeamishness in going after high profile protestant offenders.

    There are plenty of litigators who are willing to take on abusive churches.
    But it’s the legislatures who need to toughen laws so that attorneys can file
    civil lawsuits against those clergy members who violate them and don’t protect children.


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    Max wrote:

    The whole religious mess is upside down and tumbling deeper into chaos, while Jesus waits for a few folks here and there to get it together and put Him back on the throne.

    Despite what we might see, Jesus is on his throne! I don’t believe for a moment that any actions can change that 🙂


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    Velour wrote:

    I’m glad you did the right thing.

    These are evil, blinded men to give these kinds of hateful orders. They will stand before God. God is not mocked.

    Not even if they
    (a) Said the Magic Words at the Altar Call and Really Really Meant It?
    Or
    (b) Were Predestined as The Elect before the Foundation of the World?


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    Ken F wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Awful. 12?

    Utterly sick. The prophet of Islam married his youngest wife (his best friend’s daughter) when she was six, and consummated the marriage when she was nine. He was 54. So this is not just a Christian problem. But on the bright side, we have laws here that make it illegal.

    The Seven Mountains Mandate to Take Back America will fix that SECULAR problem.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Laurie uses the example of Joseph forgiving his brothers to force feed us his agenda.

    He abuses scripture; like so many pastors abuse authority that is not theirs to begin with.


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    Velour wrote:

    Glenn wrote:

    The gradual normalization of sexual immorality being imposed on society by various people in our U.S. federal government seems to me to be a corrupting influence on numbers of contemporary church leaders.

    Note: In Christianese, “sexual immorality” is a code word for HOMOSEXUALITY(TM).
    Like (((name))) is a code word for JEW(TM) on the alt-right nets.

    Just ask such Righteous enemies of Sexual Immorality(TM) as Ted Haggard and Doug Phillips ESQUIRE.

    Trying to pin everything on gays? The federal government? That dog won’t hunt. Abusive clergy are responsible for their own sins. Nobody else is responsible for them.

    But just the word “Homosexuality” (code word “sexual immorality”) disconnects EVERY neuron above the Christianese brainstem and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag over what’s left. Complete shutdown of higher brain functions like Hate Week in Oceania.

    And “federal government” is code word for The Antichrist World System which Perscuteth the Righteous. Again disconnect everything above the reptile brain and wave the Bright Red Murder Flag.


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    Glenn wrote:

    The gradual normalization of sexual immorality being imposed on society by various people in our U.S. federal government seems to me to be a corrupting influence on numbers of contemporary church leaders. The arrogance and insults I experienced here in northern Virginia with Arlington Baptist Church I think had absolutely no less than a bit to do with my refusal to engage in homosexual innuendo with a former government contract employer.

    I don’t think we can blame this on the government. The leaders in ministry are fully reasponsible for themselves for engaging in sexual harassment, which is what happened to you.


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    Lydiia wrote:

    I vote for decent human beings. Male and Female.

    Exactly.


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    incognito wrote:

    almost all churches I have known in the real world will retaliate and, especially the evangelical brand, will actively attack those expressing criticism.

    It wasn’t too long ago that I fully agreed that the conservative, evangelical church was much more “correct” than the liberal side of Christianity was. Now, I think the conservative church is every bit off-track as the liberal church, just in different areas, on different topics of belief. I’m really getting cynical about the church in general.


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    JYJames wrote:

    Voila: http://bit.ly/2c1dAAG

    Show and stage and nothing else, as reported BY JEFF SHARLET this past week in Esquire. AFter reporting on all types of churches great and small, Sharlet says about Rich Wilkerson’s Vous Church: “But never before Vous had I encountered a church that seemed so completely empty.”

    Excerpt that caught my eye:
    Even critics acknowledge that he is an exceptionally good-looking man. ” causing women to lust,” writes @johannabrnl in response to one of his bare-chested Instagrams: Pastor Rich on horseback, wearing a white cowboy hat and skinny jeans, ripped just so across a taut upper thigh.
    At least he pulls off the bare-chested studmuffin pecs on horseback better than, say, Vlad Putin…

    AND THE CONSTANT NAME-DROPPING OF LEONARDO DECAPRIO AND JUSTIN BIEBER?

    The article’s last paragraph says it all:
    I tried to talk to Rich. Chris seemed to be angling himself between us. But in this setting—networking, suits, men and women with amazing hair—Pastor Rich didn’t need Chris’s help to ignore me. He set his Leo grin on high beam, looked over my head at the beautiful people who sell penthouses like the one he lives in, and smiled upon the city he loves.

    Show on a stage to attract an audience that watches and empties their pocket books. Empty. While children are being violated by church leaders and mentors à la Bill Cosby.

    “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
    — P.T.Barnum

    Or if you’re a bit more snarky:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48


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    siteseer wrote:

    Stan wrote:

    Note the one that mentions “slander”; people slander against this great church. That’s why people like Todd Pruitt need to be more careful about using that word.

    I wonder if they get extra points for writing a rave review.

    Or a dog biscuit and pat-pat-pat on the head from Pastor Himself!

    I have been a member of this church for 8 years despite the slander against it, I know this is one true church!

    There’s gotta be a story here…

    Make that Two Dog Biscuits and a Hero medal.


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    Lydia wrote:

    My vote is on spiritual authoritarianism. I saw horrible corruption and spiritual abuse outside the Neo Cal bubble. It wasn’t fundamentalism either. It was just hidden in the mega world by the show and stage persona. People never questioned anything. They never saw a budget, either, yet gave freely. I once joked that pew sitters could see the celebrity pastor put a dead body in his trunk and rationalize it away as really a good thing.

    “I kill my own mother and still they cheer me!”
    — Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus (AKA Nero Caesar) in Paul Maier’s historical novel The Flames of Rome


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ I fear a cage:

    “These were only 13 year olds. I remember the Sunday their ban was announced over. Half the women in the church started crying and rushed to hug and love on them, saying they’d been wanting to do that the entire time but they couldn’t because they’d been told not to”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    how… why do people obey tyrants in clerical collars like this?

    Eternal Hell is quite a motivator.

    “BEGONE FROM ME, YE CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE! JOIN THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS!”
    — God; Great White Throne scene in all those Jack Chick tracts


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Bridget:

    Every single pastor oriented blog I have read over 10 years on this issue zeros in on “false accusations” and/or the “instant repentance” of the pervert con. Every. Single. One.

    Just like Boz T relating in all his years as a prosecutor specializing in Child Sexual Abuse cases, every a church was involved they rallied round the Pedo against the victim. Every. Single. Time.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Despite what we might see, Jesus is on his throne!

    Amen & Amen! All glory and honor belong to Him! Now, if we can just get him on the throne in our lives.


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    One of the little people wrote:

    @ I fear a cage:

    A sick system as you describe can only function if the women are silent. The emperor is naked.

    “Silent” or just “Very Well Trained by Hubby and Pastor”?

    Or She Who Must Be Obeyed (in secret) types climbing to the Iron Throne using their hubbies as fronts? A hive can have only one Queen Bee.


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    Velour wrote:

    Haven’t there been stories of women in villages who stood up and said they weren’t putting up with a bunch of nonsense, wouldn’t get married until the men changed their ways in the village(s), etc. It worked!

    That tactic goes back a LONG way:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I’m glad you did the right thing.
    These are evil, blinded men to give these kinds of hateful orders. They will stand before God. God is not mocked.
    Not even if they
    (a) Said the Magic Words at the Altar Call and Really Really Meant It?
    Or
    (b) Were Predestined as The Elect before the Foundation of the World?

    (a) No.
    (b) Ditto.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Haven’t there been stories of women in villages who stood up and said they weren’t putting up with a bunch of nonsense, wouldn’t get married until the men changed their ways in the village(s), etc. It worked!
    That tactic goes back a LONG way:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

    Yes.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    Stan wrote:
    Note the one that mentions “slander”; people slander against this great church. That’s why people like Todd Pruitt need to be more careful about using that word.
    I wonder if they get extra points for writing a rave review.
    Or a dog biscuit and pat-pat-pat on the head from Pastor Himself!
    I have been a member of this church for 8 years despite the slander against it, I know this is one true church!
    There’s gotta be a story here…
    Make that Two Dog Biscuits and a Hero medal.

    I was sold at the words “I know this is the one true [TM] church.”

    Oh wait. Now I’m confused. My ex-church’s pastors/elders in Silicon Valley, CA claimed to have “the one true church”.


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    Velour wrote:

    Oh wait. Now I’m confused. My ex-church’s pastors/elders in Silicon Valley, CA claimed to have “the one true church”.

    Don’t you know the ultimate theoretical end state of Protestantism?

    MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.


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    mirele wrote:

    This is the attitude which forces state legislators to bring forward legislation making church staff into mandatory reporters, because people like Viola want to handle crimes via Matthew 18.
    I could barely type this between wanting to pound my head into the desk and covering my face with my hands. I mean, to me, it’s a no-brainer, you think a child is being harmed, you report it, right?

    What do they do when they discover that someone has been skimming money out of the church coffer? Ha! They call law enforcement, report the crime and press charges! The name of the embezzler is released to news media! But, money matters. Women and children aren’t all that important.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Oh wait. Now I’m confused. My ex-church’s pastors/elders in Silicon Valley, CA claimed to have “the one true church”.
    Don’t you know the ultimate theoretical end state of Protestantism?
    MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

    Pretty much.


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    Estelle wrote:

    Regarding Joseph forgiving his brothers. First, he tested them.

    You make a good point.


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    Remember Jordan Root? Is he still attending The Village Church? Does anyone know if he is still required to stay away from children?

    This is why you turn people over to the authorities. These are not people who have made mistakes, they are obsessive, repeat offenders. These sexual perverts need to have their faces in registers on the internet, letting others know where they live so they can keep their children away from them.

    I laughed at the idea that Village Church thinks they can control Jordan Root. It’s also laughable that the man was viewing mounds of child pornography and spending countless hours with children and seemingly Village Church believes Root has completely repented without having to confess to molesting children — actual children in real life.


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    JYJames wrote:

    Lydiia wrote:

    I vote for decent human beings. Male and Female.

    Exactly.

    All of the emphasis on teaching manhood womanhood authority etc means that that whole ‘actually be decent’ thing gets neglected.


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    Lea wrote:

    All of the emphasis on teaching manhood womanhood authority etc means that that whole ‘actually be decent’ thing gets neglected.

    This is actually a hallmark of fundamentalism – Jesus hd a lot to say about it!


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    Velour wrote:

    I agree that men and women do, but not always, have different ways of seeing problems, of solving things. And yes, we do balance each other out and have 20/20 vision.

    You have just described how the diversity in the Body of Christ is used to strengthen and build up the Church 🙂


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    Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    I agree that men and women do, but not always, have different ways of seeing problems, of solving things. And yes, we do balance each other out and have 20/20 vision.

    You have just described how the diversity in the Body of Christ is used to strengthen and build up the Church 🙂

    Unless, of course, a ‘male headship’ church leadership muzzles its women ….. then you see a perverted, skewed mocking of the ‘freedom’ we are supposed to have in Christ


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    Velour wrote:

    I agree that men and women do, but not always, have different ways of seeing problems, of solving things. And yes, we do balance each other out and have 20/20 vision.

    Actually, all individuals see things differently depending on their backgrounds, life’s experiences, learned behavior, ethnicity, etc. rather than gender.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Just shocking that a leader can have the ignorance to try and blame 13 year old girls for this.
    A shame that the regular church members stood for this and didn’t vote with their feet (leave the church) and their wallets.
    Yes, it is a terrible shame.
    Those members? They DID vote …. sadly, they voted WHEN they stayed and paid
    it is said that when one person in the Body of Christ hurts, the whole Body hurts with them

    Good point. I failed to state this. The members that chose to remain by staying voted to enable this type of sad leadership. If nothing else had they withheld tithe dollars from their church that would have made a statement.


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    I would also ask what the biblical basis is for “shunning” these 13 year old girls. If a person is unrepentant then the bible allows for this but I am not aware of any passage that allows this. II Cor 2:6-7 even indicates that when a person repents that they are to forgive and comfort him.

    I am not saying that these girls weren’t repentive or even had something to repent of but am wondering what the biblical basis is for shunning.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I agree that men and women do, but not always, have different ways of seeing problems, of solving things. And yes, we do balance each other out and have 20/20 vision.
    Actually, all individuals see things differently depending on their backgrounds, life’s experiences, learned behavior, ethnicity, etc. rather than gender.

    Precisely. Thank you.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    All of the emphasis on teaching manhood womanhood authority etc means that that whole ‘actually be decent’ thing gets neglected.
    This is actually a hallmark of fundamentalism – Jesus hd a lot to say about it!

    That was my experience of it at a NeoCalvinist church. Law and not love. Rules and not people. Hateful. Hateful things done to people.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    I would also ask what the biblical basis is for “shunning” these 13 year old girls. If a person is unrepentant then the bible allows for this but I am not aware of any passage that allows this. II Cor 2:6-7 even indicates that when a person repents that they are to forgive and comfort him.
    I am not saying that these girls weren’t repentive or even had something to repent of but am wondering what the biblical basis is for shunning.

    It sounds like my ex-NeoCalvinist church. I liken it to Salem Witch Trials II.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I agree that men and women do, but not always, have different ways of seeing problems, of solving things. And yes, we do balance each other out and have 20/20 vision.
    You have just described how the diversity in the Body of Christ is used to strengthen and build up the Church

    Well I was in the wrong place.

    Here’s my new blog about my abusive former church. I made an edit. I added in the lovely work that one dear saint subjected to church discipline for not “obeying” and “submitting” to her husband by the senior pastor and elders “before all”. You know the story. This dear woman has a special ministry carrying God’s love to mentally ill adults in group homes and to the elderly in convalescent hospitals.
    https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/


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    Victorious wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    I agree that men and women do, but not always, have different ways of seeing problems, of solving things. And yes, we do balance each other out and have 20/20 vision.

    Actually, all individuals see things differently depending on their backgrounds, life’s experiences, learned behavior, ethnicity, etc. rather than gender.

    Yeah…I do think women and men are often socialized differently. And some differences are innate but not nearly to the levels people tend to think. Individuals are more different than groups.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    wondering what the biblical basis is for shunning

    Beyond the verse you cite, you will find no Scriptural support for shunning and excommunication, and certainly not the way the New Calvinists and other patriarchal groups are using these practices. They take their lead from Calvin, not Christ. Calvin threw anyone out of Geneva who questioned his belief and practice. In Calvin’s Geneva, shunning and excommunication were light sentences compared to torture and execution also employed by the magisterial reformers to religious dissenters. It’s all about authoritarian control over the lives of others, rather than trying to maintain a holy standard. Scarier than the church leaders who “minister” this way, are the followers who choose to support their “ministries”! If my weakness can overcome your strength, I own you.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    incognito wrote:

    almost all churches I have known in the real world will retaliate and, especially the evangelical brand, will actively attack those expressing criticism.

    It wasn’t too long ago that I fully agreed that the conservative, evangelical church was much more “correct” than the liberal side of Christianity was. Now, I think the conservative church is every bit off-track as the liberal church, just in different areas, on different topics of belief. I’m really getting cynical about the church in general.

    There is a cultural agenda on all sides. Some of the things I have heard from my friends that left their black churches are bizarre. Authoritarianism right up there as a major problem. Assigned ‘cup bearers and armor bearers’ to the pastor. Church discipline for moving your family out of a neighborhood without permission, etc.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Actually, all individuals see things differently depending on their backgrounds, life’s experiences, learned behavior, ethnicity, etc. rather than gender.

    Very true.


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    Max wrote:

    Scarier than the church leaders who “minister” this way, are the followers who choose to support their “ministries”! If my weakness can overcome your strength, I own you.

    Velour wrote:

    I liken an abusive church to a domestic violence relationship. A person has to be strong enough, brave enough, and ready to leave. To go it alone. Because when they do…they will generally leave ‘it all’ behind.

    I think Velour makes a good point that those who remain in abusive/controlling churches are like someone caught in an abusive domestic relationship. It isn’t always easy to leave.


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    @ Unepetiteanana:
    I was wondering about him the other day and thinking his con probably continues. He turned himself in, right? There wasn’t anything on his computer. (They usually use storage)

    It seems there wasnt enough evidence to indict. Does anyone remember? I was told by someone who should know (but I have not checked) that each image is considered a federal crime scene and comes with 5 years each.

    Personally, I would bet his long con continues.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    It isn’t always easy to leave.

    Yes, but necessary to maintain your spiritual health. Ministers who control, manipulate, and intimidate need to be put in your rear view mirror as quickly as possible. There is life after death.


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    Max wrote:

    Scarier than the church leaders who “minister” this way, are the followers who choose to support their “ministries”!

    These folks would have no stage, if they didn’t have an audience. Gone are the days when you can walk into just any old church and trust the leaders. Christians need to test and try the spirits about them. Demons go to church, too.


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    Lea wrote:

    Yeah…I do think women and men are often socialized differently

    From the Smithsonian Institute web site:

    *Snips*

    Little Franklin Delano Roosevelt sits primly on a stool, his white skirt spread smoothly over his lap, his hands clasping a hat trimmed with a marabou feather. Shoulder-length hair and patent leather party shoes complete the ensemble.

    We find the look unsettling today, yet social convention of 1884, when FDR was photographed at age 2 1/2, dictated that boys wore dresses until age 6 or 7, also the time of their first haircut. Franklin’s outfit was considered gender-neutral.

    or example, a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw’s Infants’ Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-start-wearing-pink-1370097/?no-ist


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Don’t you know the ultimate theoretical end state of Protestantism?
    MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

    You have said that several times, and I do think it is true and bears repeating as a warning. Good comment, HUG.

    On the other extreme we have seen what too much power in a single religious system with political connections can lead to, and therein also lies a problem.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Little Franklin Delano Roosevelt sits primly on a stool, his white skirt spread smoothly over his lap, his hands clasping a hat trimmed with a marabou feather.

    If anyone’s interested, that photo of FDR is posted on the Smithsonian Web site at the link I provided. You wouldn’t know it was a photo of a male imo.


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    @ Victorious:

    And one idea which our family picked up from the Chinese is that vibrant colors are better for babies because they stimulate the brain. They also ‘tease the baby’ which means a moderate amount of in the face stimulation with motion and sound. They think it makes the baby smart.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    I would also ask what the biblical basis is for “shunning” these 13 year old girls. I

    I don’t get shunning at all and I generally associate it with cults. In this circumstance it’s particularly awful.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    I am not saying that these girls weren’t repentive or even had something to repent of but am wondering what the biblical basis is for shunning.

    The girls had nothing to repent of. The church leaders should be sued for how these victims were treated!


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    @ Victorious:
    Lol! I have a similar painting of a male relative from 1909. Long black curls with w/ frilly dress.


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    mot wrote:

    Church has become so difficult for those that just want to follow and be like Jesus.

    I have found that liturgical based churches tend to have less time in the service to go off message. They also have less time for the “hit you over the head” sermons. That is the direction that I am trending in at the moment. I’ll keep everyone posted on my experience. So, far, after 1 3/4 years, so far, so good.


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    @ Patriciamc:
    I am sorry that I missed it. I was not feeling well and spent most of the day resting. I wonder if it was the after effects of the flu shot .


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    @ Victorious:
    Btw: interesting article.


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    @ Ken F:
    There were also some suicides that were attributed to Edwards “you are going to hell” preaching, including his own uncle. I am waiting for the Edwards defenders to show up now. However, my husband is an official descendent, I can officially critique him 🙂

    I am working out some thinking about these so called revivals. We have rapacious little understanding about the numbers who supposedly became Christians and then continued in the process after the revival. I am wondering if a number of these things are emotionally based.

    For example, the Calvinistas like to critique Billy Graham yet Edwards was guilty of the same sort of emotionalism but more from the negative side.


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    @ Lydia:
    My mother had the nerve to take a photo of me when I was one year old holding a doll! My brothers drag that out every once in a while and I still feel like fighting! I am much prouder of the photos with cowboy hat and toy guns.


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    dee wrote:

    @ Patriciamc:
    I am sorry that I missed it. I was not feeling well and spent most of the day resting. I wonder if it was the after effects of the flu shot .

    I’m sorry to hear that, Dee. Yes, please get your rest. I’m praying for you and I know other saints are too.


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    Max wrote:

    My mother had the nerve to take a photo of me when I was one year old holding a doll! My brothers drag that out every once in a while and I still feel like fighting! I am much prouder of the photos with cowboy hat and toy guns.

    LOL! Funny how those things tend to stay with us for a lifetime. My son who is 48 yrs. old blushes when he remembers a photo of his stuffed animal collection I took. His favorite was a dog he named “Dugan.”


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    dee wrote:

    mot wrote:
    Church has become so difficult for those that just want to follow and be like Jesus.
    I have found that liturgical based churches tend to have less time in the service to go off message. They also have less time for the “hit you over the head” sermons. That is the direction that I am trending in at the moment. I’ll keep everyone posted on my experience. So, far, after 1 3/4 years, so far, so good.

    Good to know. I’ve been thinking about it too.

    And I really liked the book that someone here mentioned…called Reconsidering TULIP by Alexander J. Renault. He was a Calvinist and he’s now an Eastern Orthodox Christian. It’s a very good little book, 117 pages.

    I am 1/2 Russian and my grandparents were Russian Orthodox Christians. So I was brought up with two traditions: Protestant and Eastern Orthodox. I find the E.O. explanation lovely compared to the harshness of Calvinism, which I reject.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Funny how those things tend to stay with us for a lifetime. My son who is 48 yrs. old blushes when he remembers a photo of his stuffed animal collection I took.

    Yes, after nearly 70 years, I still “shun” my brothers when they bring up the doll photo!


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    @ I fear a cage:

    “But women can’t. Even in the year 2016. In many churches in my former denomination they can’t question or cause a fuss. It’s a sick reality but they can’t because they’ll be treated like rebellious feminist Rebels, or they’ll just be ignored as emotional women. Probably both.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    a large group of women could stand up together one Sunday, a spokesperson make a few statements, then walk out of the building, and refuse to return until x, y, and/or z happens. a large group of women who are no longer there to do the tasks consigned to them (including making the men look good & viable, let alone the church itself) can’t be ignored. they do have power.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    a large group of women could stand up together one Sunday, a spokesperson make a few statements, then walk out of the building, and refuse to return until x, y, and/or z happens.

    Wow!…I’d like to see that! Better still, I’d like to be a part of it!


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    dee wrote:

    @ Patriciamc:
    I am sorry that I missed it. I was not feeling well and spent most of the day resting. I wonder if it was the after effects of the flu shot .

    I’m sorry you weren’t feeling well! I hope you’re better. I couldn’t do much at the time from my phone, but I could rouse the troops, and they responded! Ultimately, Scot closed the discussion. There was one comp in particular who was particularly skilled at turning things around and saying that people had said things when they had not. He/she then had to resort to calling people insecure. It was all going no where pretty fast. Scot deleted the comments from the guy who was really insulting and closed the whole thing.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    If nothing else had they withheld tithe dollars from their church that would have made a statement.

    Been there, didn’t work. In the final stages of dealing with an increasingly authoritarian church, I mentioned to them that I knew at least a half dozen people who no longer gave to the church budget because they believed money was used poorly. These were people that had been very committed. I was expecting a response of “oh my, what have we done that would cause people to lose confidence”, silly me, instead it was “you need to go to those people and tell them they should not be withholding the tithe”. Don’t get me wrong, I agree about not giving to an abusive church, but they won’t get the message.


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    @ Velour:

    In the case of the 13 year old girls I assume their testimony help put the pervert away. I do wonder how that came about. I also wonder why CPS was not called in? Or maybe they were.


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    @ Max: on my brothers adult birthdays we always pulled out the film of him dressed in full court King Louie regalia (yes, white wig) dancing the minuet at age 10…Hee Hee.


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    Victorious wrote:

    If anyone’s interested, that photo of FDR is posted on the Smithsonian Web site at the link I provided. You wouldn’t know it was a photo of a male imo.

    Best POTUS (FDR) we’ve ever had in modern times (Potter’s opinion).


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    okrapod wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Don’t you know the ultimate theoretical end state of Protestantism?
    MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

    You have said that several times, and I do think it is true and bears repeating as a warning. Good comment, HUG.

    On the other extreme we have seen what too much power in a single religious system with political connections can lead to, and therein also lies a problem.

    Problem is, just like in American politics, there’s no center or balance point any more.

    A.W.Pink or Borgia Popes — CHOOSE ONE!


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    Glenn wrote:

    The gradual normalization of sexual immorality being imposed on society by various people in our U.S. federal government seems to me to be a corrupting influence on numbers of contemporary church leaders.

    I’m confused by your statement. The federal government is removing limitations on some things of a sexual nature but in what way is it imposing them on people? Can you elaborate? And connect it with what happened to you at your church?


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    @ Muff Potter:
    Not mine. Worst year of depression: 1936! 16 years? He took advantage. He is why we instituted term limits.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    : “The first person of the Trinity orders and directs all things according to his purpose and pleasure. He has created humanity to bring him glory and honor, through his grace.””
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    not for joy? not for the pleasure of relationship?

    & that perfunctory ‘grace’ footnote …

    Nope, no joy, no… gasp! pleasure!, nope, you have no inherent ability to bring him anything, and certainly not happiness, you’re just too vile…

    Here’s the best film sketch I’ve seen (in under two minutes) that describes their god to a tee.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA


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    elastigirl wrote:

    a large group of women could stand up together one Sunday, a spokesperson make a few statements, then walk out of the building, and refuse to return until x, y, and/or z happens. a large group of women who are no longer there to do the tasks consigned to them (including making the men look good & viable, let alone the church itself) can’t be ignored. they do have power.

    Nope. I vote for women just not showing up for services and the fellowship meal, maybe on a big day with a guest speaker, or revival week when a different class prepares a meal for the guest speakers each day, or “homecoming” day. Baptist churches spend weeks announcing these things and inviting people, and the women of the church do all of the kitchen duties — all the way from purchasing and preparing the foods to laying out and serving to cleaning up afterward. That would pack a big punch.
    I also vote for women boycotting VBS. Let the men see how unimportant women are when the men have to do all of the nitty-gritty details for a 5-day VBS!


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    Not mine. Worst year of depression: 1936! 16 years? He took advantage. He is why we instituted term limits.

    I’m not a big FDR fan, but he did start the Tennessee Valley Authority. Because of the TVA, my area has the lowest electricity rates in the nation.
    We also have Lake Barkley and Kentucky Lake and “the land between the lakes” —- less than a 90 minute drive for me, and a cheap vacation spot! The bad part – the dams did displace a lot of families.


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    @ Lydia:

    Ah but Lyds, we two could have some barn-burner arguments just like two Jews in Tel Aviv. And through it all? Still be friends just Ginsberg and Scalia were.
    L’Chaim !


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Max: on my brothers adult birthdays we always pulled out the film of him dressed in full court King Louie regalia (yes, white wig) dancing the minuet at age 10…Hee Hee.

    Tights and everything?

    So how much did he pay you to not put it on the internet and let it go viral around the world?

    What a hoot, Lydia.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ I fear a cage:
    “But women can’t. Even in the year 2016. In many churches in my former denomination they can’t question or cause a fuss. It’s a sick reality but they can’t because they’ll be treated like rebellious feminist Rebels, or they’ll just be ignored as emotional women. Probably both.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    a large group of women could stand up together one Sunday, a spokesperson make a few statements, then walk out of the building, and refuse to return until x, y, and/or z happens. a large group of women who are no longer there to do the tasks consigned to them (including making the men look good & viable, let alone the church itself) can’t be ignored. they do have power.

    Ahh, but this would get said large group of women subjected to – gasp – *Church Discipline*. Because they obviously *aren’t one of us* and among “God’s Elect”.

    A woman I know is married to a recovering alcoholic. She got help for herself when she realized that she wasn’t going to be changing him. She wasn’t going to enable him.
    She said to me about her codependent days, “I wasn’t just a doormat with the word ‘WELCOME’ written on me, I was wall-to-wall carpeting!”

    I think that’s what these guys want.

    Slam your wallet shut ladies, and walk out the door. If they won’t respect you, than obviously they have NO need for your money, honey.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    Not mine. Worst year of depression: 1936! 16 years? He took advantage. He is why we instituted term limits.

    I won’t get into this too much since this is not a political board, but might there be an analogy to draw on the authoritarian side of things? Every other president went with washingtons unwritten rule of only two terms-we had to make it official because one man thought he was too important to leave.

    Some men in churches think they are the most important. We talked in Sunday school about interpretation of texts…and how Paul (I think) says we now see through a mirror dimly-literally some sort of riddle. Many men think they are so brilliant and wonderful that they alone see clearly. A lesson there.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    VBS. Let the men see how unimportant women are when the men have to do all of the nitty-gritty details for a 5-day VBS!

    Problem is they would just cancel it. And probably the women end up watching kids just not at vbs.

    I do like the way you think on this – pick the day for maximum disruption! And if I ever have need of using it will try to remember.


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    Lea wrote:

    I do like the way you think on this – pick the day for maximum disruption! And if I ever have need of using it will try to remember.

    *Super Bowl Sunday
    *Your area’s other favorite sports’ teams games.
    *Your pastors/elders’ favorite teams’ game days.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Glenn wrote:
    The gradual normalization of sexual immorality being imposed on society by various people in our U.S. federal government seems to me to be a corrupting influence on numbers of contemporary church leaders.
    Note: In Christianese, “sexual immorality” is a code word for HOMOSEXUALITY(TM).
    Like (((name))) is a code word for JEW(TM) on the alt-right nets.
    Just ask such Righteous enemies of Sexual Immorality(TM) as Ted Haggard and Doug Phillips ESQUIRE.
    Trying to pin everything on gays? The federal government? That dog won’t hunt. Abusive clergy are responsible for their own sins. Nobody else is responsible for them.
    But just the word “Homosexuality” (code word “sexual immorality”) disconnects EVERY neuron above the Christianese brainstem and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag over what’s left. Complete shutdown of higher brain functions like Hate Week in Oceania.
    And “federal government” is code word for The Antichrist World System which Perscuteth the Righteous. Again disconnect everything above the reptile brain and wave the Bright Red Murder Flag.

    Thank you, H.U.G., for translating that. I forgot that “federal government” [sound of “Jaws” shark music played here]…means “Anti-Christ’ in some dark minds and small circles. Sigh.

    Here’s my story about the gay man in his 20’s that I went to see one December night, when God ordered me to get out of bed and “Go!”
    https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/2016/09/01/the-royal-law-of-love-includes-loving-a-gay-neighbor-and-not-shunning-him-when-hes-dying/


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    @ I fear a cage:

    “…church life is not the Christian life. An abundant life in Christ is a 24/7 walk”
    ++++++++++++

    it’s so liberating! makes me think of tenant farmers, who are able to realize owning the land which they have farmed for so long. the land which, in all but deed & title, had been theirs.

    only difference is that we have the deed & title to our faith lives, the living of our lives. if we’ve given them away to be ‘owned’, operated, & controlled by the institution, we can reclaim them.


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    I have a really hard time imagining what life must be like for a couple who have to live out ‘roles’ of ‘male-headship’ for the husband and ‘submissive’ for the wife ……

    wouldn’t they sometimes just want to hang out together like normal people and be themselves????


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    Lea wrote:

    Yeah…I do think women and men are often socialized differently. And some differences are innate but not nearly to the levels people tend to think. Individuals are more different than groups.

    It seems to be an interesting field of study with many questions remaining open. The Bible does say that God made us male and female, which I assume was a for a good reason. I’ve run across very few people who believe the differences are only in the plumbing. The complementarians have taken the idea of potential differences to a terrible place. But just because they abuse it, does it mean that differences are bad or that differences mean one gender is less valuable than the other? I personally don’t think so. I and I don’t believe that differences justify the abuses that this site so well exposes. This is an interesting article: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2016/06/brain-activity-during-cooperation-differs-by-sex.html. It could well support the thought expressed here by some that things work much better when men and women work together as full partners.

    It seems that every time I bring up the idea that God might have actually made men and women a bit different someone wants to come in and accuse me of being some kind of a complementarian. I don’t know why that is, but I suspect it’s something like an allergic reaction caused by experience with actual abuse. I can understand that response even if I don’t agree with it.


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    The problem with Viola and other pastors apparently more interested in protecting their power and reputations and wealth than in protecting little children is that what they are ruling over are likely not meaningful churches within the context of Matthew 18 anyway, so the point is moot. They seem to be less concerned about millstones round necks–which would be fitting for all of them who abuse children or who enable or cover said abuse up–than about their hyper-literal interpretations of church procedures that in any event were spoken by Jesus to a world in which the church was a very different place, there was no priesthood of all believers yet, no Holy Spirit indwelling all believers, and no mutual submission model of church as yet.

    Frank Viola is in my opinion a snake.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Frank Viola is in my opinion a snake.

    Interesting you mentioned him.

    I avoided his books, even though they’d been recommended to me post-bad church experience.
    I just…never felt interested to read them, couldn’t figure out why. It just seemed like all of the other *Christians* and their *book deals*.

    Now every pastor must be a published author.


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    Ken F wrote:

    It seems that every time I bring up the idea that God might have actually made men and women a bit different someone wants to come in and accuse me of being some kind of a complementarian. I don’t know why that is, but I suspect it’s something like an allergic reaction caused by experience with actual abuse. I can understand that response even if I don’t agree with it.

    I don’t think it has to always mean abuse. For some it is simply a warning alert because of the sort of teaching they experienced. It’s like the salesman who gets one agreeing…well you agreed men and women are different so that means.. thus or that.

    For some it could trigger the manipulation. For years the comps played the unisex card. You just want men and women to be alike. Then they played the homosexual card in order to plant fear in disagreeing. If you disagree then…

    Combine that with their indirect of women as lesser dependent beings and it is a recipe for triggers. Just don’t be surprised when people ask you to explain more fully.

    I loved the Smithsonian article because it articulated my earlier career years. Why not a female surgeon who likes feminine clothes? I loved fashion back then. And I loved business.


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    Christiane wrote:

    I have a really hard time imagining what life must be like for a couple who have to live out ‘roles’ of ‘male-headship’ for the husband and ‘submissive’ for the wife ……

    wouldn’t they sometimes just want to hang out together like normal people and be themselves????

    Back in early days of blogging a sport used to be finding blogs of young pastors wives to find the mist bizarre example examples of submission. This is before we heard of Carolyn Mahaney and her counter top tyranny. I remember one young pastors wife who took instruction on exactly how he wanted condiments lined up in the fridge door. It was her joy to submit to his instructions.

    I think they both had too much time on their hands.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I think they both had too much time on their hands.

    I think you are too kind. I would choose either pathology or chicanery or both for descriptive words for that behavior.


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    @ Velour:
    The more disordered society becomes, the further the excessively proud will go to violate the boundaries of people they disfavor. A society in this case becomes more chaotic. No church leader should be influenced in this, though I believe I see this relationally.

    I do not understand “gays” in general to be undermining evangelical churches from within or from without. I do, however, think that the overall moral breakdown in the culture at large has had various negative effects on various churches. When I began to take God, Scripture, and prayer seriously in the mid 1990s, coworkers advocating what became gay/queer liberation theology could never begin to win me over to that theology. Many people who personally know me know this. I have no disrespect for a person just because one struggles that way, but I see much of that conversation to be absurd. And clear hostility tends to intermittently result, regardless of positions held.

    There was He-said, He-said content in the final conversation I had with the pastor at Arlington Baptist Church. And there were subsequent e-mails and phone calls. I understood the attitude toward me to be exceedingly hostile. So I don’t go back there. So if I was purposefully bullied out, what would stop them from making sport of someone more vulnerable?

    Generally, the deliberate abuse, from spiritual to criminal, is all stomach-turning.


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    Ken F wrote:

    It seems that every time I bring up the idea that God might have actually made men and women a bit different someone wants to come in and accuse me of being some kind of a complementarian. I don’t know why that is, but I suspect it’s something like an allergic reaction caused by experience with actual abuse. I can understand that response even if I don’t agree with it.

    You tend to be unspecific, so people auto-fill in all the ‘girls are bad at math/illogical/what have you’ nonsense that we have had thrown at us ad nauseum. Differences are vast in individuals. You will miss important things if you focus too much on massive groups like female and male.

    Yes, God created male and female but that doesn’t mean that we are not all human. That doesn’t mean we are not all individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses. That is what is important to me. See me as myself, not part of a big group of people with wildly varying levels of knowledge and skill in different areas.


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    @ Velour:
    We purposely took it from reel to reel to video. Now for digital? (Evil laugh)


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    Lea wrote:

    Yes, God created male and female but that doesn’t mean that we are not all human. That doesn’t mean we are not all individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses. That is what is important to me.

    Me too. Thanks! Important reminder when one has been immersed in gender “roles”.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I think they both had too much time on their hands.

    I think you are too kind. I would choose either pathology or chicanery or both for descriptive words for that behavior.

    Reminds me of the ocd abuser in sleeping with the enemy, actually. Didn’t he want the cans lined up a certain way?


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    okrapod wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I think they both had too much time on their hands.

    I think you are too kind. I would choose either pathology or chicanery or both for descriptive words for that behavior.

    That world is too bizarre for words although’ pathology’ seems the most appropriate. I could not believe Carolyn Mahaney’s blog was so popular, either. Just think ‘soap bubble’ type submission on every post.


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    @ Law Prof:
    Yes and he was supposed to be “organic” non authoritarian church guy. Making a living from ministry is a huge snare, I think.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    We purposely took it from reel to reel to video. Now for digital? (Evil laugh)

    Repent, Lydia, repent!


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    Lydia wrote:

    Important reminder when one has been immersed in gender “roles”.

    And honestly, you simply can’t have an intellectual discussion with most of them about legitimate differences. One, they don’t care about the science and will mainly sub in their stereotypical stuff that’s probably wrong and two, they are too dumb or dishonest to talk about statistics and how a say 5-10% difference across a group does not actually mean too much when dealing with specific people. Also moe. Also nature/nurture.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I also vote for women boycotting VBS. Let the men see how unimportant women are when the men have to do all of the nitty-gritty details for a 5-day VBS!

    The men would do away with VBS should that happen! They would just offer the kids more pizza to keep them coming in the absence of VBS. Children/youth “discipleship” in an average Baptist church in my area consists of keeping them occupied with skating and bowling parties, current movies, and lots of pizza. Only occasionally does a youth worker open the Bible. A kid could attend church K-12 and never learn the books of the Bible, memorize verses, or how to witness to their friends. If they don’t go to VBS with women ministering Jesus to them, they may never get saved.


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    @ Lea:
    Some truths are so simple. I used to think of this speech when striving to have those non discussion conversations:

    AIN’T I A WOMEN?
    That man over there say
    a woman needs to be helped into carriages
    and lifted over ditches
    and to have the best place everywhere.
    Nobody ever helped me into carriages
    or over mud puddles
    or gives me a best place…
    And ain’t I a woman?
    Look at me
    Look at my arm!
    I have plowed and planted
    and gathered into barns
    and no man could head me…
    And ain’t I a woman?
    I could work as much
    and eat as much as a man —
    when I could get to it —
    and bear the lash as well
    and ain’t I a woman?
    I have born 13 children
    and seen most all sold into slavery
    and when I cried out a mother’s grief
    none but Jesus heard me…
    And ain’t I a woman?
    that little man in black there say
    a woman can’t have as much rights as a man
    cause Christ wasn’t a woman
    Where did your Christ come from?
    From God and a woman!
    Man had nothing to do with him!
    If the first woman God ever made
    was strong enough to turn the world
    upside down, all alone
    together women ought to be able to turn it
    rightside up again.
    Copyright © Sojourner Truth, 1852 & Erlene Stetson
    [There is no exact copy of the speech Sojourner Truth gave at the Women’s rights Convention in Akron Ohio, in 1852. The poem above is adapted to the poetic format by Erelene Stetson from copy found in Sojourner, God’s Faithful Pilgrim by Arthur Huff Fauset, Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1938).

    She sort of says it all.


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    @ Lydia:

    Yeah. I love that one.

    Some people refuse to admit how much of this is just cultural expectations, or alternately Christian cultural expectations. It doesn’t apply to everyone and it really never has.


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    @ Lydia:
    Love that speech! I read that Sojourner Truth forcefully attacked the hypocrisies of organized religion and white privilege at that women’s rights conference. She said God led her to speak out against those hypocrisies and she took that name and became an itinerant preacher….feminist and abolitionist as well.


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    Lea wrote:

    @ Lydia:

    Yeah. I love that one.

    Some people refuse to admit how much of this is just cultural expectations, or alternately Christian cultural expectations. It doesn’t apply to everyone and it really never has.

    Or American. Or upper middle-class. Or white.


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    mot wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    . I am coming to the conclusion that any “Christain leader” that immediately attacks the person raising the question (or ignores or try’s to squelch the question) has real “issues”

    And lots of them have real issues.

    Church has become so difficult for those that just want to follow and be like Jesus.

    Amen.


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    @ siteseer:

    My apologies for any confusion. I think that the increasing focus on things of a sexual nature in law, government, and culture has had a impact. Anyone and everyone is right to assert that this ought not effect various church leaders, in which I agree. But I’m afraid that it has.

    People tend to be more uneasy, standoffish, and angry, with such topics. And it’s daunting. Reactions can be toxic and inane. I came to faith in Christ while working with people who advocated what is now basically gay/queer liberation theology, which I tolerated but refused to accept. People who know me more personally know this. When discussing such matters, regardless of how civil one might think the environment might be, people can get hostile. Regardless of positions held on matters. I suspect that that had something to do with the southward trend in relationships in the church I was excommunicated from.


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    @ Lea:

    When I write about this stuff I am careful and sensitive about false accusations. After all in my situation an Air Force Captain from Eric Simmons Redeemer Arlington made a false accusation. I learned why rape and sexual assault is a problem in the military. Now having gone through that do you think I would want to do the same thing to another person?


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    Now having gone through that do you think I would want to do the same thing to another person?

    No?

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I was referring to the point that pastors seem more concerned that something might be a false accusation rather than concerned for people who may have been abused.


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    Lea wrote:

    ou will miss important things if you focus too much on massive groups like female and male.

    I think I mostly agree with you. Statistics can prove all sorts of things, so one has to ask a lot of questions, such as what is the standard deviation, by how much percentage to the means differ, etc. I’m guessing that studies will eventually show compelling evidence that men and women have some statistically significant differences. So what? Is that a threat to either men or women? It depends on what conclusions one draws. Complementarians will likely use such studies to prove that women should be submissive to men. But complementarianism, the way it is taught by the YRR crowd, is wrong regardless of what the statistics show. As an ideology, it will not be defeated by appealing to statistics – it will be defeated by showing how stupid it is. There are other ways of looking at people “complementing” one another that have nothing to do with gender. It does not appear that the YRR-type of complementarians can see that, so they wrongly default to gender roles that don’t make sense. If I have any point to make it is this: women and men are stronger when they work together as allies to cover each others’ blind spots and weaknesses. How this will look in each man/woman pairing will be different because of the general differences in people that you describe, just as it would be in any pairing of two people.


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    Lea wrote:

    I was referring to the point that pastors seem more concerned that something might be a false accusation rather than concerned for people who may have been abused.

    I’ve been falsely accused. It’s not fun. The pastors need to get out of the business of worrying about whether abusers are being accused falsely by turning the investigations over to the professionals. They should bring in law enforcement as soon as there is suspicion of abuse. The legal professionals are in the best position to determine whether or not the allegations are factual.


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    Ken F wrote:

    The legal professionals are in the best position to determine whether or not the allegations are factual.

    I mostly agree with you because I think pastors absolutely should not be trying to determine these things (but it’s also a tricky thing as if there is a possibility you need to remove someone until this has been investigated.)

    I wanted to pull this out, however, because it speaks to something I’ve seen in the culture which is that sometimes a person is guilty but you still can’t convict them because of a variety of things. Standard of evidence is high for conviction. As it should be.

    I do think we sometimes as individuals have to go by a stricter standard than conviction. I know my mother kept me away from a specific person because she got a bad feeling. The gift of fear kind of supports this as well.

    And the you have behavior that clearly crosses a boundary, like ‘skinny dipping’ or stuff that is inappropriate for a certain position and points to problems that may not be completely provable or maybe haven’t even happened yet. We have to look at people who cross boundaries.

    I do think that your response and daves response point to what I was trying to say – men may be quick to response emotionally about false accusations when these things come up. That is a thing I have been noting.

    There obviously has to be balance, but when dealing with kids, I think you especially have to err on the side of caution. But it isn’t easy always to balance these things.


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    Ken F wrote:

    The pastors need to get out of the business of worrying about whether abusers are being accused falsely by turning the investigations over to the professionals. They should bring in law enforcement as soon as there is suspicion of abuse. The legal professionals are in the best position to determine whether or not the allegations are factual.

    Yes! Good words, Ken!


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    @ Ken F:

    “if Jesus was to visit a church like this he would not say anything like, “Wow, this is exactly what I was thinking church should be.””
    +++++++++++++

    well, he would when striking a sarcastic tone.

    (i don’t think sarcasm and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are incompatible)


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    Lea wrote:

    men may be quick to response emotionally about false accusations when these things come up.

    Can you clarify what you mean by this? Do you mean mankind in general with no regard to gender, or do you mean males specifically?


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    Ken F wrote:

    I’m guessing that studies will eventually show compelling evidence that men and women have some statistically significant differences. So what? Is that a threat to either men or women? It depends on what conclusions one draws. Complementarians will likely use such studies to prove that women should be submissive to men. But complementarianism, the way it is taught by the YRR crowd, is wrong regardless of what the statistics show. As an ideology, it will not be defeated by appealing to statistics – it will be defeated by showing how stupid it is. There are other ways of looking at people “complementing” one another that have nothing to do with gender. It does not appear that the YRR-type of complementarians can see that, so they wrongly default to gender roles that don’t make sense. If I have any point to make it is this: women and men are stronger when they work together as allies to cover each others’ blind spots and weaknesses. How this will look in each man/woman pairing will be different because of the general differences in people that you describe, just as it would be in any pairing of two people.

    I love this. People -whether male or female- should be free to be individuals. If the sexes prove to have innate differences, it in no way supports one being subservient to the other or one of those perspectives being more important than the other. If we bring different perspectives to the table, it’s because God felt that both were needed. The word complementary used to be a good word but it has been ruined by becoming a buzzword for patriarchy.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    men may be quick to response emotionally about false accusations when these things come up.

    Can you clarify what you mean by this? Do you mean mankind in general with no regard to gender, or do you mean males specifically?

    I mean males specifically. It is something I have been observing.


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    @ Lea:

    Let me clarify I am not talking about being outraged at actual false accusations, which are awful.

    I am more talking about being concerned absent knowledge one way or the other that a person accused may have been falsely accused.


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    Lea wrote:

    I mean males specifically. It is something I have been observing.

    I’m confused – it seems like you are sending mixed signals. Earlier in this thread you wrote, “You will miss important things if you focus too much on massive groups like female and male.” I thought you were making the point that male/female distinctions are largely irrelevant. But here you seem to be saying that males are much more likely to be worried about false accusations than women. I don’t know what I am supposed to understand from this. I think I personally agree more with your latter statement than your earlier statement. But I’m not sure if I understand what you meant.


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    @ Lea:

    Forgive me for posting so much, but this may be two sides of the same coin, as a woman who is not believed when she is telling the truth may consider that being falsely accused of lying


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    Ken F wrote:

    I thought you were making the point that male/female distinctions are largely irrelevant. B

    I am speaking of innate differences verses cultural ones and ones based on experiences. That is the difference.

    I have been observing that men may be more concerned about personally being falsely accused of things, whereas maybe women identify more with not being believed, and this is based more on difference experiences and observation of the experience of others like us.


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    @ Velour:

    I think it must be Nancy2 in the mini-dress with the “attitude” in the David Hayward cartoon. I can see her Kentucky green eyes all of the way to California by the Pacific Ocean.


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    Velour wrote:

    I think it must be Nancy2 in the mini-dress with the “attitude” in the David Hayward cartoon. I can see her Kentucky green eyes all of the way to California by the Pacific Ocean.

    And carrying concealed!


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    Ken F wrote:

    This is an interesting article: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2016/06/brain-activity-during-cooperation-differs-by-sex.html. It could well support the thought expressed here by some that things work much better when men and women work together as full partners.

    I wonder what percentage of those differences are actually biological ( in the DNA ) and what percentage is a result of social conditioning, like Pavlov’s dogs?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I think it must be Nancy2 in the mini-dress with the “attitude” in the David Hayward cartoon. I can see her Kentucky green eyes all of the way to California by the Pacific Ocean.
    And carrying concealed!

    Would that be Moonshine or a weapon?


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    ^Nancy2,

    My response is waiting to clear Customs.


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    @ Dave (eagle)
    I read your post. I usually “lurk” here since I am Ken’s spouse. All I can say is : may the Lord repay you for your kindness. I am sorry that no one replied to you or acknowledged your post. You are noticed and you are heard. Please do not feel obligated to acknowledge my reply. Fair winds to you my brother!~


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    Lea wrote:

    I have been observing that men may be more concerned about personally being falsely accused of things, whereas maybe women identify more with not being believed, and this is based more on difference experiences and observation of the experience of others like us.

    Do you think this is nature or nurture?


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    @ Ken F:

    I think it’s nurture. I think they are two sides of the same coin though.


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    @ Velour:

    Thank you, Velour. it’s nice to be thought of!


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    jjuulliiee wrote:

    My understanding is that Matthew 18 refers to offenses where one person has a beef with another person, and doesn’t apply to things like crime, or pastoral malfeasance. I can’t imagine anyone thinking that Jesus doesn’t want us to get the pedophiles away from the children in any way possible as soon as possible!!

    Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!!!!!!!

    I have been pounding this for years.

    Matt 18 is a dispute resolution passage. It requires an offense by one person against another.

    Matt 18 is not a method for reporting this sins of others.

    An informal method for resolving disputes is quite useful and needed.

    Matt 18 is not an instruction manual for policing the behaviors of congregants.

    Except to the extent a behavior may be disruptive to the peace of the congregation, it is not the congregation’s business to know of the sins of all the persons in the congregation. Think of all the meetings and discussions that would need to be had. There would be no time for anything else.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    They seem to be less concerned about millstones round necks–which would be fitting for all of them who abuse children or who enable or cover said abuse up–than about their hyper-literal interpretations of church procedures that in any event were spoken by Jesus to a world in which the church was a very different place, there was no priesthood of all believers yet, no Holy Spirit indwelling all believers, and no mutual submission model of church as yet.

    Frederick Buechner:
    Principles are what people have instead of God.

    To be a Christian means among other things to be willing, if necessary, to sacrifice even your highest principles for God’s or your neighbor’s sake the way a Christian pacifist must be willing to pick up a baseball bat if there’s no other way to stop a man from savagely beating a child.

    Jesus didn’t forgive his executioners on principle, but because in some unimaginable way he was able to love them.

    Principle is an even duller word than religion.


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    Lea wrote:

    I have been observing that men may be more concerned about personally being falsely accused of things, whereas maybe women identify more with not being believed, and this is based more on difference experiences and observation of the experience of others like us.

    Men Just Don’t Trust Women — And It’s A Huge Problem
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/damon-young/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280.html


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    Anonymous wrote:

    I have been pounding this for years.
    Matt 18 is a dispute resolution passage. It requires an offense by one person against another.
    Matt 18 is not a method for reporting this sins of others.
    An informal method for resolving disputes is quite useful and needed.
    Matt 18 is not an instruction manual for policing the behaviors of congregants.
    Except to the extent a behavior may be disruptive to the peace of the congregation, it is not the congregation’s business to know of the sins of all the persons in the congregation. Think of all the meetings and discussions that would need to be had. There would be no time for anything else.

    One of my favorite quotes from a Jeff T. who posted this on TWW a few years ago about Matthew 18.

    ““Jeff T:
    God I’m sick of hearing this from fascist church leaders. They NEVER use it to engage in a Spirit-filled discussion of resolving differences. It’s ALWAYS used as an instrument of oppression. Whenever someone in their church raises an issue they don’t want discussed, they stand up and shout “Matthew 18!, Matthew 18!”, the person raising the issue is then hustled off to a backroom and subjected to a process worthy of a Chinese Communist reeducation camp. They are told they are wrong, not on the basis of anything having to do with the issue itself, but because they are refusing to submit to authority, they are being divisive, ergo they are sinners and must repent and if they don’t, they are subjected to “church discipline”, meaning they are shunned and harassed.”


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    Ken F wrote:

    You will miss important things if you focus too much on massive groups like female and male.” I thought you were making the point that male/female distinctions are largely irrelevant

    I was thinking about this last night. The problem is not that they are irrelevant, but that they are academic. If we were discussing differences in large groups academically I’m all in.

    The problem is when people want to take a step too far and apply this to individuals they don’t know. because it’s as likely to be wrong as it is to be right when you do it that way (assuming you are correct in your theories of how women are in the first place which many times are not) because there are so many variances within the groups.


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    Velour wrote:

    fascist church leaders … oppression … hustled off to a backroom – Communist reeducation camp … told they are wrong … subjected to “church discipline”, meaning they are shunned and harassed

    Yep, Jeff T had it right when he penned those words years ago. And it has got worse thanks to the New Calvinist movement sweeping through Christendom. The problem is the new reformers are convinced they are right – the masters of their faith keep telling them so; they are pathetically serious about it all.


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    Lea wrote:

    The problem is when people want to take a step too far and apply this to individuals they don’t know. because it’s as likely to be wrong as it is to be right when you do it that way (assuming you are correct in your theories of how women are in the first place which many times are not) because there are so many variances within the groups.

    Sure, on average, men are taller and more muscular than women. I’m 5’6″, my husband is 6’2″. Big deal! My husband can lift things I can’t lift. But, the size difference between us gives me the advantage sometimes – I can squeeze into places my husband can’t fit! Because of that, he needs my help sometimes, and I need his help sometimes.
    My sil and daughter are IT people. They install, repair and operate computer systems. My sil is a big guy, so when they run cables, my daughter does a lot of the dirty work – crawling underneath floors and into attics where my sil can’t fit. If my daughter didn’t do that stuff, they would have to hire a short, skinny man to do it (or another woman who would do it!). We all use what God gave us to make things work. Snort. Do comps think it is “biblical” for a woman to crawl into tight, dark places underneath buildings, through cobwebs, support posts, and plumbing pipes to drill holes in floors to run cable?

    Women are bad drivers ……. blondes are dumb ……… redheads are quick tempered ….. boys are better at math ……
    I think that in many cases, people take social conditioning and assume that those behaviors are in the DNA constructs. What parents expect of their children and the social environment children grow up in can have a strong influence on what the children expect of themselves as adults, as well as how they raise their own children.


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    @ Anonymous:

    It is also not a “Christian” gag order or demand for privacy on discussing possible criminal behavior or evil behavior. Just recently, Brian Lorritts pulled this one on Eagle.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Sure, on average, men are taller and more muscular than women.

    Height is actually a great example of why averages cannot judge individuals. On average men are taller than but my last boyfriend was not taller than me because I am taller than average and he is shorter than average.

    People know this with external characteristics, they just need to remember that it also applies to internal ones.


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    @ JYJames:
    What happens when your God is angry, controls every atom 24/7 and pre determined the evil? Or when one believes “Christians” remain so evil they molest children? In those cases I hope one, at least, has some principle to nag at their soul!


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Anonymous:
    It is also not a “Christian” gag order or demand for privacy on discussing possible criminal behavior or evil behavior. Just recently, Brian Lorritts pulled this one on Eagle.

    You are exactly right.


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    @ Nancy2:
    It’s always good to know that women possess the most powerful human muscle: the myometrium (uterine) muscle

    But please don’t tell Piper
    Men like Piper need their fantasies about male superiority, yes 🙂


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Sure, on average, men are taller and more muscular than women. I’m 5’6″, my husband is 6’2″. Big deal! My husband can lift things I can’t lift. But, the size difference between us gives me the advantage sometimes – I can squeeze into places my husband can’t fit! Because of that, he needs my help sometimes, and I need his help sometimes.

    I find the physical strength argument the last line of defense for desperate comps. On Jesus Creed the other day, the comp man attacking Ruth Tucker mentioned a man’s greater physical strength. I noted that physical strength is great for situations requiring physical strength, but other than that, so what? What if we substituted another trait and said that those with accounting skills are superior. I noted that if any comp man says that he’s stronger than I am, my response will be, “So what?” That got an angry insult out of Mr. Comp Guy.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    I have been observing that men may be more concerned about personally being falsely accused of things, whereas maybe women identify more with not being believed, and this is based more on difference experiences and observation of the experience of others like us.
    Do you think this is nature or nurture?

    It is interesting to go back and read the different responses to God after the Fall. :o)


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    Christiane wrote:

    Unless, of course, a ‘male headship’ church leadership muzzles its women ….. then you see a perverted, skewed mocking of the ‘freedom’ we are supposed to have in Christ

    This idea has been in my head for a while, and it’s getting louder and louder (voices in my head? hmmmm). I noted over at Jesus Creed that comp-ism is a false issue in true Christianity. It’s a perversion of Christian ideals. The complementarians are Pharisees in that they’ve heaped rule after rule onto people and onto the Christian religion and have made Christianity a burden, masculinity an idol, and femininity a liability. Also, if you think about it, they’ve perverted masculinity too and the idea of what a man should be (someone here said that recently). A real issue in true Christianity is loving your neighbor, loving God, treating others as you’d like to be treated, and caring for the less fortunate. That’s it.


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    @ Lea:
    Throughout much of history one woman’s testimony did not count as equal to one man’s testimony. It varied from two to three women equaled one mans testimony. Then you had a similar problem when the word of a gentleman was always superior to the word of a laborer. And so on. These were cultural norms for a thousand or more years. They shaped thinking and responses. And bringing in the supposedly soft patriarchy of comp theology was a step backwards. The teaching that women are perpetually “deceived” and even the cross/resurrection has no power over that. They often subtly map “protection” to “easily deceived”.


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    Great advice in this post when dealing not only with authoritarian churches but also in any toxic relationship.

    I think that this severely affects the mental health of those involved in these situations. I’ve never experienced this but the peer pressure must be enormous to conform if you would be willing to abrogate your rights of redress as a victim (or worse the rights of any minors in your care).

    When a crime involving church occurs, especially some of the heinous personal crimes discussed recently, I don’t believe it is up to the pastor, elders, or any church body or member to dispense forgiveness.

    That is up to the victim.

    I don’t believe that “forgiveness” means “everything is A-OK now”. Forgiveness is part of the healing process, as a way of moving forward, finding peace. With such a deep violation this is a process that can take years. And I think it’s a personal peace, letting go of the perpetrator. It does not mean you are “friends” and nor should you ever be.

    The emphasis is on the “sin” and forgiving the “sinner”. The only way the “sin” can be truly acknowledged is to place the emphasis on the victims and above all correct and prevent such crimes from ever occurring again. Perpetrators should be investigated & prosecuted.

    Sexual predators are adept at camouflage and criminal background checks will only help so much. In our area recently a children’s entertainer was caught uploading pictures from his shows. The police are tracking down victims now. This guy was a well respected teaching assistant. We were even thinking of hiring him for our kids party after seeing how awesome he was! No previous criminal activity.

    When it comes to protecting your children, no one (pastor, elder, teacher, friend, relative) should use “can’t” when it comes to your decisions.

    One of my co-workers had a good friend whose husband was taking an undue focus on her pre-teen daughter. Nothing criminal but she really had an awkward feeling. She ceased allowing her kids to be in that house. Nothing should be more important than protecting kids.


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    @ Patriciamc:

    I noticed on that thread how angry the Comp man was toward Ruth, anyone that disagreed, and just his attitude. And he expects people to “respect” him because he knows more than the rest of us, especially women? He’s a poster boy for what’s wrong with Comp teachings.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Also, if you think about it, they’ve perverted masculinity too and the idea of what a man should be (someone here said that recently).

    It’s called “Hypermasculinity”, a term I first came across in the 1943 OSS psych profile of one A.Hitler. Define masculinity entirely as POWER and Aggression, burn out everything else with a white-hot iron, and firewall what’s left to the max.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort


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    @ Jack:

    Spot on.


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    Velour wrote:

    @ Patriciamc:

    I noticed on that thread how angry the Comp man was toward Ruth, anyone that disagreed, and just his attitude. And he expects people to “respect” him because he knows more than the rest of us, especially women?

    Fear Breeds Respect, and I Can Beat You Up!


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    @ Patriciamc:

    Yes! It is a perversion of Christian ideals! Think of it in practical every day living. One needs a sort of Christian version of a Talmud in order to apply it daily. And those rules and roles would always be a matter of debate, contention, interpretation.

    If I wanted to figure out a way to subvert full fledged living as the kingdom now, comp theology would be the perfect distraction disguised as Gods design in “roles” (which is pretending…playing a part)

    I think you can guess who I think is behind it.


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    Lea wrote:

    The problem is not that they are irrelevant, but that they are academic. If we were discussing differences in large groups academically I’m all in

    I think it is extremely practical, especially as it pertains to this particular thread about identifying and appropriately dealing with abuse. Here is an article about a study suggesting that men and women process information differently: http://www.livescience.com/41619-male-female-brains-wired-differently.html (the article does a good job in pointing out that not all individuals fit the statistical norm). This could be the reason why there are stereotypes such as men are all head and no heart while women are all heart and no head. Even on this site, which I consider to be very egalitarian, I’ve seen comments describing men in general as less empathetic than women. But it turns out there could be some truth to it. This is where is gets practical rather than merely academic. If it’s true that men are generally less intuitive and more fact-based, and if all the decisions are made by the men in a particular group (women’s views are not considered), there will be a very good probability that gut-feelings and intuition will not have much influence in final decisions (the intuitive men will be dismissed as girly-men). This could explain why complementarian churches are more likely to be worried about false charges. Their “prove it” mentality blinds them from needed hunches and intuition that could show them where to look. On the other hand, if all of the decisions are made by women, there will be a greater probability that gut feelings will predominate, which can result in both false allegations and a lack of concrete evidence that would lead to prosecution. Neither approach will be effective in dealing with abusers. One approach will miss the big-picture indicators, and the other approach will fail to produce the facts needed to legally prosecute the abusers. But both together can be powerful in keeping churches safe.

    I realize that what I just wrote sounds like I am making sweeping generalizations. That’s not my intent. I understand that not all men fit the statistical norm, neither do all women. It’s difficult to include all the right caveats without turning it into a dissertation, but my main point is I believe it’s wrong to conclude that statistical differences make one gender more or less valuable than the other. I think the right conclusion is we need take into account each other’s strengths and weakness so that we can work together in a way that is powerful and synergistic. And because there are some traits that are more generally expressed in one gender than the other, we need to be very careful with respect to decisions made by groups that favor one gender over the other.


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    BTW with regards to “male headship” or what “pathological patriarchy” I wrote a computer algorithm to deal with that problem in BASIC

    10 Print “Men and women are equal in every single way”
    20 Goto 10
    Run


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    @ Ken F’s wife:
    Sorry, I did it again, I hit “post comment” before I checked to see that my name rather than my wife’s was in the name block. The above comment was from me, not my wife.


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    @ Jack:

    Great comment!


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    Max wrote:

    They would just offer the kids more pizza to keep them coming in the absence of VBS. Children/youth “discipleship” in an average Baptist church in my area consists of keeping them occupied with skating and bowling parties, current movies, and lots of pizza.

    And when something outside the church throws better parties and has more free pizza?

    (Wait! That’s why the Baptists keep trying to shut everyone else down!)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    better parties and has more free pizza

    = a New Calvinist church plant in a community near you!

    And don’t forget free coffee & pastries, cool band, charismatic “preacher”, and thought-provoking “sermons.”


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    From the post: “2. They asked us not to discuss anything or gossip about the victims because they had all requested their privacy.”

    Indeed, law enforcement (for example, in the Wetterling case which comes to national Media this week as his remains have been revealed by the murderer), says: “Someone knows something, and they need to come forward so we can stop the perpetrator.”

    What’s up with the church protecting the perpetrator and silencing the evidence, the narrative? Silencing what could be key to stopping the evil?


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    Jack wrote:

    10 Print “Men and women are equal in every single way”
    20 Goto 10
    Run

    Ahem ……
    10 Print “Women and men are equal in every single way”. ; ^ )


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    Jack wrote:

    Forgiveness is part of the healing process, as a way of moving forward, finding peace.

    Indeed! Forgiving others is a personal thing and should never be forced by church leaders. Forgiveness must be real, not manipulated. “Forgive and forget” is not applicable for the crimes detailed on TWW. Forgiveness may come, but one can never forget.


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    Christiane wrote:

    I have a really hard time imagining what life must be like for a couple who have to live out ‘roles’ of ‘male-headship’ for the husband and ‘submissive’ for the wife ……

    wouldn’t they sometimes just want to hang out together like normal people and be themselves????

    But if they ever do, God Will Punish Them, so…
    “WOMAN! SUBMIT!!!”

    (To paraphrase the concentration camp doctor in Leon Uris’ QB VII, “If I don’t do it to you, God’s going to do it to me.”)

    It would actually bt Tragic to just want to hang out and enjoy your wife’s presence in a surrounding society where you’re expected to PENETRATE COLONIZE CONQUER PLANT what’s effectively a domestic animal With Benefits. Imagine a man in just such that situation; he wants to just love her, but God Saith “DO AS I SAY OR I BEAT YOU!” And it’s Penetrate/Colonize/Conquer/Plant/BEAT or Eternal Hell!


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    Ken F wrote:

    Sorry, I did it again, I hit “post comment” before I checked to see that my name rather than my wife’s was in the name block. The above comment was from me, not my wife.

    How about “Team Ken”?


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    @ JYJames:
    In the Wetterling case, it was the DNA from one victim that led to the perpetrator.

    The trail of victims form a narrative that reveals the perpetrator.

    This is the same as with the priests that were assaulting children. This is the same as with the Holocaust – 4,000 documents paint the picture of what the Nazis were doing – when no one wanted believe it was really true, really possible.

    (Unfortunately, the Wetterling perpetrator was present in the community for 27 years – among “us”. The priests also were moved from one parish to another, among “us”, and the victims were silenced.)


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    Max wrote:

    “Forgive and forget” is not applicable for the crimes detailed on TWW.

    It’s not applicable in any Christian context. Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting. It’s just a bunch of bad teachers who have convinced as that the two ideas are connected. The Apostle Paul listed quite a lot of sins committed against him – he obviously did not forget.


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    Velour wrote:

    Ahh, but this would get said large group of women subjected to – gasp – *Church Discipline*. Because they obviously *aren’t one of us* and among “God’s Elect”.

    “ARE THEY GOD’S CHOSEN? ARE THEY GOD’S CHOSEN?”
    — Gordon Dickson, “Soldier Ask Not” (I leave you to look up the context of that line)


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    @ Ken F’s wife:
    And I have read articles discussing that over time and depending on environment or focus, our brain wiring changes. In a bad situation of severe or prolonged trauma we know know certain brain functions change.

    I do think a big mistake of our society is the focus on “group” identity. Black/white, male/female and such instead of individual differences. The potential of the individual is lost to the group. As is the accountability of individuals when the “group” is considered the perpetrator of wrong doing.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    How about “Team Ken”?

    That would work because I talked about this with my wife this morning before I posted.


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    Lydia wrote:

    And I have read articles discussing that over time and depending on environment or focus, our brain wiring changes.

    That’s another interesting point I noticed in that article. It said the greatest difference between men and women are in young adults. The difference get less with age. One of the marks of the new-Calvinst churches is to kick the older generation to the curb. This probably makes the problem worse.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    Not mine. Worst year of depression: 1936! 16 years? He took advantage. He is why we instituted term limits.

    First of all, look what was happening to other countries during that time. And the Presidents-for-Life they ended up with — Mussolini. Stalin. Hitler. Intellectuals and Academics debated with twelve-syllable words how Democracy was Dead and either Commumism or Fascism was The Future.

    The US got off easy with FDR.

    I’m not a big FDR fan, but he did start the Tennessee Valley Authority. Because of the TVA, my area has the lowest electricity rates in the nation.
    We also have Lake Barkley and Kentucky Lake and “the land between the lakes” —- less than a 90 minute drive for me, and a cheap vacation spot! The bad part – the dams did displace a lot of families.

    That’s another thing. FDR’s recovery programs weren’t raking leaves or digging then filling in holes. They built Infrastructure that took the country through the wartime production surge of WW2, so oversized for the time that we didn’t outgrow it for thirty-forty years.


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    Lydia wrote:

    They often subtly map “protection” to “easily deceived”.

    Which boils down to: men must be in control in order to protect women from their own stupidity/inferiority.


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    Velour wrote:

    I am 1/2 Russian and my grandparents were Russian Orthodox Christians. So I was brought up with two traditions: Protestant and Eastern Orthodox. I find the E.O. explanation lovely compared to the harshness of Calvinism, which I reject.

    I’ve got a few problems with EO (especially cage-phase Net Orthodox), but they definitely beat Calvin in this regard.

    Christus Victor beats Penal Substitutionary Atonement any day. Cosmic Hero who defeated Death, not Cosmic Monster who slings it around like a Minigun.


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    @ Ken F’s wife:
    I want to throw something else into the mix. The typical teen, male and female, will score high on the F (Feeler) on the MBTI. That tends to change to the statistical norm by age 35-40 of 75%male as T and 25% Female as F’s. To this day, we don’t know if that is mainly nature or nurture. I am a high T but was not raised the same way as most of females I knew growing up.


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    Velour wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:

    I would also ask what the biblical basis is for “shunning” these 13 year old girls. If a person is unrepentant then the bible allows for this but I am not aware of any passage that allows this. II Cor 2:6-7 even indicates that when a person repents that they are to forgive and comfort him.
    I am not saying that these girls weren’t repentive or even had something to repent of but am wondering what the biblical basis is for shunning.

    It sounds like my ex-NeoCalvinist church. I liken it to Salem Witch Trials II.

    Ideologically-Pure Dictators need Witches among the people to be smelled out.

    Make an example of one and not only do you silence a hundred but the survivors will start informing on each other left & right so someone else Will be Next.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Awful. 12?

    Utterly sick. The prophet of Islam married his youngest wife (his best friend’s daughter) when she was six, and consummated the marriage when she was nine. He was 54.

    Which got locked into their SCRIPTURE.
    And their Plain Reading of SCRIPTURE.
    Which is why even today in X-Treme Islamic Republics (like Talibanistan or Daesh, and I suspect Saudi as well) the female Age of Consent is still 9. IT IS WRITTEN!


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    @ Ken F:
    Add to that problem young people are developing slower due to lack of responsibility and even economics. They live with their parents longer, have fewer mature responsibilities and such. Responsibility helps develops the brain…and wisdom. It infuriates me to hear so many people refer to 18 year olds as “children”.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Which is why even today in X-Treme Islamic Republics (like Talibanistan or Daesh, and I suspect Saudi as well) the female Age of Consent is still 9.

    And they call us the infidels…


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    Lydia wrote:

    And I have read articles discussing that over time and depending on environment or focus, our brain wiring changes. In a bad situation of severe or prolonged trauma we know know certain brain functions change.

    Agreed. I am walking talking proof that brain wiring can change: I suffered severe head trauma in an auto accident at age 18. The neurosurgeon braced my family. After surgery, he said that all he could promise was that I would live. I was in a coma and not expected to wake up for several weeks, if at all. I was in the coma for 32 hours — came out of it demanding two aspirin and a ride home.
    I had a stroke at age 45. I insisted that I had not had a stroke until I saw the MRI. My then neurologist said the only explanation for my quick recovery was that my head injury had already trained my brain to re-route signals. Both of my brain “damage” incidents were in the area that controls mathematical, speech, and arm-leg motion abilities. And yet, here I am ……. functioning like a “normal” person. I tutor college math students, I walk, I talk, I drive a 5-speed …….
    My current neurologist is dumbfounded – he says I’m a miracle.

    Tee hee. My question is: is an average man “strong” enough to win the fight against such severe trauma? ; ^ )


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    Ken F wrote:

    One of the marks of the new-Calvinst churches is to kick the older generation to the curb.

    Sounds so Scriptural doesn’t it? Not!

    The true church is populated by multi-generations, in which the older saints teach young folks. Church is to be a family of God, all ages working together. Things are so upside down in New Calvinist ranks.


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    Velour wrote:

    Would that be Moonshine or a weapon?

    Well, now! If I tell everybody what I’m carrying, there wouldn’t be any point in carrying concealed, would there?


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    Jack wrote:

    BTW with regards to “male headship” or what “pathological patriarchy” I wrote a computer algorithm to deal with that problem in BASIC

    10 Print “Men and women are equal in every single way”
    20 Goto 10
    Run

    Ha!

    Lydia wrote:

    our brain wiring changes

    Our brains are actually amazingly able to rewrite themselves in response to trauma.

    As for Ken F, I don’t have time to respond to your comment fully as I’m painting a chair, but I think you are still too apt to make broad generalizations and apply them to individuals. Look at the height point I made. That is how every difference between men and women is, you just can’t see it.


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    Max wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    One of the marks of the new-Calvinst churches is to kick the older generation to the curb.

    Sounds so Scriptural doesn’t it?

    As Scriptural as Chairman Mao’s Red Guard — young and on-fire for The Cause.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Which is why even today in X-Treme Islamic Republics (like Talibanistan or Daesh, and I suspect Saudi as well) the female Age of Consent is still 9.

    And they call us the infidels…

    I understand there are some Islamic scholars and theologians who differ with this, but they have an uphill fight against SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! and its Plain Meaning(TM).


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    @ Nancy2:
    Oh wow! That is incredible!


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Max: on my brothers adult birthdays we always pulled out the film of him dressed in full court King Louie regalia (yes, white wig) dancing the minuet at age 10…Hee Hee.

    What’s known locally as “blackmail pictures”.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Steve240 wrote:
    I would also ask what the biblical basis is for “shunning” these 13 year old girls. If a person is unrepentant then the bible allows for this but I am not aware of any passage that allows this. II Cor 2:6-7 even indicates that when a person repents that they are to forgive and comfort him.
    I am not saying that these girls weren’t repentive or even had something to repent of but am wondering what the biblical basis is for shunning.
    It sounds like my ex-NeoCalvinist church. I liken it to Salem Witch Trials II.
    Ideologically-Pure Dictators need Witches among the people to be smelled out.
    Make an example of one and not only do you silence a hundred but the survivors will start informing on each other left & right so someone else Will be Next.

    Oh well the boyz at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley met their match when they crossed me.

    I started a blog about them. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/


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    Velour wrote:

    “orders” and “directs”. Must be a joy to live with a God like that.

    Theme song for these Pastors(TM) everywhere, in the words of the prophet Mel Brooks:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVoMH5GUFRo
    (all I could find was the extended version…)


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    @ Ken F’s wife:

    One thing I was thinking about, I do not think ‘gut feelings’ are generally responsible for false accusations. I think it is active lying.

    It’s possible the gift of fear really impacted my thinking on this, but gut feelings are generally your brain processing things that you may not consciously be able to explain. They are often dismissed but are what kept us alive in the jungle from wild animals. They are useful tools and should not be dismissed.


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    Max wrote:

    Indeed! Forgiving others is a personal thing and should never be forced by church leaders. Forgiveness must be real, not manipulated. “Forgive and forget” is not applicable for the crimes detailed on TWW. Forgiveness may come, but one can never forget.

    It seems like this is being taken to weird extremes these days. The parent of a little girl who was kidnapped, molested and murdered, saying he forgives the perpetrator the same day, for instance. Or Davey Blackburn. There is no period of even registering, acknowledging and working through the grief first. They are like people whose wiring to their emotional reality has been completely disconnected. Robotic.


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    siteseer wrote:

    Or Davey Blackburn.

    Everything about that case is so creepy.


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    JYJames wrote:

    From the post: “2. They asked us not to discuss anything or gossip about the victims because they had all requested their privacy.”

    I have noticed in reading a lot of these cases now that this seems to be the go-to reason given for keeping things quiet- the narrative is that they are doing it for the victims’ sake. Yet the victims do not seem to be reporting that they wanted things kept quiet, when they are asked. They are reporting that they are being pressured to keep quiet.

    Indeed, law enforcement (for example, in the Wetterling case which comes to national Media this week as his remains have been revealed by the murderer), says: “Someone knows something, and they need to come forward so we can stop the perpetrator.”

    What’s up with the church protecting the perpetrator and silencing the evidence, the narrative? Silencing what could be key to stopping the evil?

    The only conclusion I can draw is that stopping the evil is not important, appearances are all that matter. The church’s/pastor’s image in the community and so on. 🙁


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    Velour wrote:

    I think that we’re a priesthood of believers and the Holy Spirit has equipped us to run our churches.

    Spot on.


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    I’m a little late with the report from the House of Driscoll for Sunday, September 4:

    * 103 cars for the 9 am service.
    * 117 cars for the 10:45 am service.

    I talked to a young man who brought me a glass of citrus-infused water from inside the church. He doesn’t understand why I wouldn’t come in to hear Driscoll preach (altho’ I don’t think Driscoll preached yesterday). I was blunt–I’m a middle-aged single woman and Driscoll’s oft-expressed complementarianism and submission of women does not appeal to me *at all*. He also couldn’t believe I didn’t go to another church. I have my reasons; right now it seems the reason is I have to stand on the sidewalk outside Driscoll’s church during prime church attendance hours. But I did point out (and he took note of this) that I had been very loyal to the sidewalk outside the House of Driscoll since Driscoll started.

    I’ve been thinking of a couple of signs for next week:

    “Driscoll abandoned Seattle. Jesus will never abandon you.”

    and

    “Driscoll doesn’t deserve you and your time, talent and treasure.”

    My sister is visiting from out of town. She wanted to see my new vehicle. So out we went and I was hoping she didn’t see the signs in the back seat. She said nothing. I asked my brother later, “Do you think she saw the signs?” “Naw.” Let’s hope not, there’s not even a chance she would understand what I’m doing. (As it is, my brother thinks I’m weird. *shrug*)


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    siteseer wrote:

    JYJames wrote:

    The only conclusion I can draw is that stopping the evil is not important, appearances are all that matter. The church’s/pastor’s image in the community and so on.

    That was the conclusion I came to in my experiences. Social media just kept confirming it from both sides.


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    @ mirele:
    Weird is good! I am also proof.


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    @ Lea:
    Very good points. I totally agree. One of the things that bothers me a lot about churches these days is so many don’t want people to trust themselves or their gut. They want them to ignore the red flags they discern but can’t explain….yet. They keep a proof texted clobber verse handy like, “The heart is deceitful” to convince them not to trust their gut. People end up rationalizing a lot of things away and even turning on others as trouble makers, gossips or bitter. They don’t discuss and learn which is part of growing in wisdom.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Women are bad drivers ……. blondes are dumb ……… redheads are quick tempered ….. boys are better at math ……
    I think that in many cases, people take social conditioning and assume that those behaviors are in the DNA constructs. What parents expect of their children and the social environment children grow up in can have a strong influence on what the children expect of themselves as adults, as well as how they raise their own children.

    And once a person has those filters in mind, they channel everything they see through them. Something that fits, confirms it, something that doesn’t fit is just an anomaly and is ignored.


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    siteseer wrote:

    And once a person has those filters in mind, they channel everything they see through them. Something that fits, confirms it, something that doesn’t fit is just an anomaly and is ignored.

    Indeed.

    Did you ever study the experiment the teacher did many years ago where she broke the kids into blue and brown eyes and started praising one group for every good thing (good job Johnny, that’s why blue kids are smarter! Bad job Jenny, brown eyed kids are the worst).

    She had those kids mixed up and feeling their worth was based on their eye color and iirc it only took her a week.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Very good points. I totally agree. One of the things that bothers me a lot about churches these days is so many don’t want people to trust themselves or their gut. They want them to ignore the red flags they discern but can’t explain….yet. They keep a proof texted clobber verse handy like, “The heart is deceitful” to convince them not to trust their gut. People end up rationalizing a lot of things away and even turning on others as trouble makers, gossips or bitter. They don’t discuss and learn which is part of growing in wisdom.

    maybe the ‘social club’ atmosphere is not a good model for ‘Church’, if this is the kind of manipulation that is going on . . . so destructive


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    @ mirele:

    Thanks Mirele for bringing light to the abusive tactics of Mark Driscoll. I thought this last week about a sign. Refunding people including in Seattle their money. They shouldn’t have had to sue. And he owes the Petrys, for the firing of Paul, excommunication, and shunning.


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    A not uncommon neocalvinist perspective on God:

    Created the entire universe not to express his passionate love and enjpoy an intimate relationship with those whom he created, but did it purely for his own glory.

    Predetermines every single movement of every single atom, including every single action of every single person, then damns the ones whom he unilaterally chooses–nay, forces–to do evil to be cast out and shunned forever.

    So, when neocalvinist pastors create their own church kingdoms in no way to express passionate love, set themselves above parishioners and so have intimate relationships with no one, and do everything for their own glory, why does it surprise us?

    When neocalvinist pastors attempt to control the behavior, actions and even thoughts of every single person under their control, and seem to take great pleasure in casting out and shunning their followers forever, why does it surprise us?

    The are only reflecting the image of their god.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Created the entire universe not to express his passionate love and enjpoy an intimate relationship with those whom he created, but did it purely for his own glory.

    Cosmic-level Narcissism.

    Like the gods of Sumer and Ur who (according to Gilgamesh) sent the Great Flood because humans weren’t giving them enough Narcissitic supply.


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    Lydia wrote:

    One of the things that bothers me a lot about churches these days is so many don’t want people to trust themselves or their gut. They want them to ignore the red flags they discern but can’t explain….yet. They keep a proof texted clobber verse handy like, “The heart is deceitful” to convince them not to trust their gut.

    A recent poem on one of these blogs (Internet Monk?) ended each stanza with
    “I know I’m Right; I have a Verse.”


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    mirele wrote:

    I’ve been thinking of a couple of signs for next week:

    “Driscoll abandoned Seattle. Jesus will never abandon you.”

    That’s a good one.

    And isn’t there some question about missing funds at Mars Hill?

    “[amount] — Where’d the Mars Hill money go?”


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    Velour wrote:

    Oh well the boyz at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley met their match when they crossed me.

    I started a blog about them. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/

    Velour, have you ever noticed a LOT of these abusive churches have “Grace” in their names?

    Like “Democratic” in the official names of so many Third World dictatorships.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    One of the things that bothers me a lot about churches these days is so many don’t want people to trust themselves or their gut. They want them to ignore the red flags they discern but can’t explain….yet. They keep a proof texted clobber verse handy like, “The heart is deceitful” to convince them not to trust their gut.

    A recent poem on one of these blogs (Internet Monk?) ended each stanza with
    “I know I’m Right; I have a Verse.”

    FOUND IT!
    Velour reprinted it on her blog:
    https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/2016/09/03/poem-i-have-a-verse-by-wayne-harmon/


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    Lea wrote:

    Did you ever study the experiment the teacher did many years ago where she broke the kids into blue and brown eyes and started praising one group for every good thing (good job Johnny, that’s why blue kids are smarter! Bad job Jenny, brown eyed kids are the worst).
    She had those kids mixed up and feeling their worth was based on their eye color and iirc it only took her a week.

    Yes! It’s called “A Class Divided.” It was Jane Elliott’s exercise aimed at teaching her third graders the ugly affects of racism and discrimination.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott


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    Law Prof wrote:

    A not uncommon neocalvinist perspective on God:
    Created the entire universe not to express his passionate love and enjpoy an intimate relationship with those whom he created, but did it purely for his own glory.
    Predetermines every single movement of every single atom, including every single action of every single person, then damns the ones whom he unilaterally chooses–nay, forces–to do evil to be cast out and shunned forever.
    So, when neocalvinist pastors create their own church kingdoms in no way to express passionate love, set themselves above parishioners and so have intimate relationships with no one, and do everything for their own glory, why does it surprise us?
    When neocalvinist pastors attempt to control the behavior, actions and even thoughts of every single person under their control, and seem to take great pleasure in casting out and shunning their followers forever, why does it surprise us?
    The are only reflecting the image of their god.

    Preach it, Law Prof!

    Exactly like my ex-pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.
    Senior pastor is a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary.
    I liken it to a 7-11 franchisee training school, to open up your own JMac-brand
    church franchise.

    (My ex-pastor rounded out his sub-par education with a fake Ph.D. for $299 from
    the unaccredited Faith Bible College in Independence, Missouri. Real Ph.D.’s take
    8 years of hard work to earn from an accredited university.)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Oh well the boyz at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley met their match when they crossed me.
    I started a blog about them. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/
    Velour, have you ever noticed a LOT of these abusive churches have “Grace” in their names?
    Like “Democratic” in the official names of so many Third World dictatorships.

    Hindsight is 20/20.

    I refer to these abusive churches, including my former church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, of being baited like a Venus Flytrap. Love and goo. Smells nice. Looks nice. Walk in. Jaws clamp down and the digestive juices get flowing to rip you to shreds and eat you alive.


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    @ Victorious:
    That happens even before a student enters a class as they look at a zip code and conclude they won’t be able to read or do maths at level. It is the soft discrimination of low expectations. Our society plays into it with low expectations for certain groups.


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    mirele wrote:

    (As it is, my brother thinks I’m weird. *shrug*)

    Ahhh. Don’t worry about it. After all, we are called to be a “peculiar people” (1 Peter 2:9).


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    siteseer wrote:

    They are like people whose wiring to their emotional reality has been completely disconnected. Robotic.

    And to add to that, Piper and other New Calvinist notables take a strange position on suffering, as if they go out looking for something to suffer over in order to purify themselves. A strange lot indeed.

    They are robotic. They have a robotic God who has predetermined which robots to save and which robots to damn before He ever creates them. The chosen ones then go through a robotic existence where the Calvinist God controls everything.


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    Max wrote:

    After all, we are called to be a “peculiar people” (1 Peter 2:9).

    This is where King James English fails us. Peculiar used to mean “belonging to” or “characteristic of.” Now it means “weird,” which is pretty much the opposite of what it used to mean. I once listened to a ministry leader teach that we are supposed to be weird based on this passage. He totally missed the point. It’s ok to be weird, but this is not the passage to use to support it.


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    Lea wrote:

    One thing I was thinking about, I do not think ‘gut feelings’ are generally responsible for false accusations. I think it is active lying.

    I’ve never been falsely accused in a legal sense. But I’ve been falsely accused several times in church and family settings based on gut feelings people had about me and/or my wife. Accusations were made but full evaluation of evidence and cross examination were not allowed. It was not active lying. Rather, it was running with bad interpretations of partial evidence. But the result was the same. Some of those relationships remain unreconciled because all attempts by me to reconcile have resulted in new accusations about me wanting to dig up the old hurts, being stuck in the past, not being able to forgive and forget, etc. So the narratives are set, I am assumed to be guilty, and there seems to be nothing I can do about it.

    Gut feelings are worth pursuing, but they need to be validated by evidence and cross-examination.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Peculiar used to mean “belonging to” or “characteristic of.”

    I was just using that passage to comfort Mirele a bit. When Christians act like Christians – when they demonstrate they belong to and are characteristic of Christ – they can appear “peculiar” to a watching world. Christlikeness is so contrary to the behavior of the multitudes around us, that we can appear to be a strange lot indeed if we live as we ought in the midst of moral chaos … a peculiar light in the surrounding darkness.


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    Lea wrote:

    As for Ken F, I don’t have time to respond to your comment fully as I’m painting a chair, but I think you are still too apt to make broad generalizations and apply them to individuals. Look at the height point I made. That is how every difference between men and women is, you just can’t see it.

    If you are correct, that there are no general “internal” statistical differences between men and women, then the logical inference is that there should be no statistical differences between churches that have male-only leadership and churches that have a mixture of male and female leadership. Any differences between such churches should be due only to differences in the individuals that make up the churches. The impact of Gender should be completely irrelevant. It would also mean that if a church currently has only male leadership, there should be no statistical improvement made by opening leadership positions to women because the types of available men to fill leadership positions would be indistinguishable from the types of women available to fill those positions. That might be true, but I have a hard time believing it. I have a gut feeling that churches are diminished when only men get to lead. My gut tells me that women (in general) bring strength to the mix that would not be there (in general) if only men lead. Is my gut feeling wrong?

    Complementarianism will not be defeated through statistics. It will be defeated because its ideas are wrong. There have not been enough studies to conclusively prove whether or not women and men have general differences that are statistically significant. Both sides of the argument will attempt to use statistics to prove their point. The statistical side will end up being a fruitless pursuit because “figures lie and liars figure.”


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    Max wrote:

    I was just using that passage to comfort Mirele a bit. When Christians act like Christians – when they demonstrate they belong to and are characteristic of Christ – they can appear “peculiar” to a watching world. Christlikeness is so contrary to the behavior of the multitudes around us, that we can appear to be a strange lot indeed if we live as we ought in the midst of moral chaos … a peculiar light in the surrounding darkness.

    I might be overly sensitive because I was badly taught early in my Christian life. I’m still recovering from it.


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    @ Ken F:

    I honestly do not think you understand what I’m saying about statistics.


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    @ Ken F:

    Also, I think you are trying to make a point that the ONlY reason a church would be stronger with male and female leadership is because they bring different innate qualities.

    There is a lot more to it than that. They have different experiences.

    And as for churches with male only leadership being worse (if they are) solely because of some internal qualities, I think you are missing that people who are drawn to an organization that actively puts women down are going to be worse on many to the topics relating to women. You could easily have a male only leadership made up of boz’s that is sensitive to abuse. You are not likely to find it in a church that teaches women are inferior, because all the guys who think that will be at that church, and they will reinforce each other’s dumb decisions, and they will actively kick out the people with sense.

    That is not, of course, even getting into the creepy authoritarian side of things.

    There are a lot of holes in your logic, even if you are trying to be cute talking about your gut.


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    @ Lea:

    And one more thing, there is going to be a difference in an organization that happens to not have any female leadership and one that actively excludes them. The mentality is different.


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    Lea wrote:

    even if you are trying to be cute talking about your gut.

    I was not trying to be cute. It really is my gut feeling. I don’t understand your accusation.


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    Off topic. But I really miss some folks. Gram3 hasn’t made a comment.
    Roebuck same.

    I hope they come back real soon.


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    @ Ken F:
    You have to take an organization’s core values into consideration. such as strict gender roles rather than a meritocracy where skills, experience and education are the most valued. A church might strive for those with known spiritual wisdom instead of a gender caste.


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    @ Ken F:
    My prayer is for the best equipped whether male or female. I would resent being a “token” woman expected to bring some sort of feminine mystic to the organization. I just don’t think like that.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    even if you are trying to be cute talking about your gut.

    I was not trying to be cute. It really is my gut feeling. I don’t understand your accusation.

    You dismiss other gut feelings though. You are trying to get me to agree to a point based on that. (Which I am not opposed to by the way, I think women and men can bring different perspectives to the table).

    I am speaking more of gut feelings in regards to danger or out of line behavior/boundaries crossing.

    I am confused on your false accusation comment. I generally think of false accusations as more j’accuse! Which would generally involve lies if a thing is not true. I think maybe you are talking about something different.


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    @ Lea:

    For instance, I don’t think you can argue a math point by saying your ‘gut feeling’ says the answer is five.


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    Lea wrote:

    You dismiss other gut feelings though.

    How do you know this to be true about me? Your comment is inaccurate and unfair.


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    Off-topic prayer request.

    I am extremely worried about a homeless woman who is blind and has a service dog.
    I realized that when I went to a mega church, at the invitation from a friend, that
    this woman was in the choir and in a job support group that I attended briefly between jobs.

    I emailed the mega church and asked for their help in finding her a place to live through social services, care for herself, caregivers, veterinary care for her dog (and a bath).

    The woman once lived in an apartment near me. But she was laid off from her computer job.

    Thanks friends. The mega church does have social workers and therapists on staff, people connected to the community who know services available.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    You dismiss other gut feelings though.

    How do you know this to be true about me? Your comment is inaccurate and unfair.

    You said they have to be backed up by evidence above. You also claim that people made false accusations (which see above because I’m confused on your definitions) based on feelings. I am only going by your statements.

    Sometimes evidence is not available and you have to act with feeing alone.


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    @ Lea:

    If you think I misread you, maybe explain what you meant. I think maybe you see me as out to get you or something and I assure that is not the case.


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    Lea wrote:

    If you think I misread you, maybe explain what you meant. I think maybe you see me as out to get you or something and I assure that is not the case.

    I think I’ve taken the conversation as far as I know how to take it. I guess we both deeply misunderstand each other. We can drop it.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    They want them to ignore the red flags they discern but can’t explain

    Just how a pedophile works. Doing things with little children that children do not yet have the vocabulary to explain. But the child may sense something is wrong. Without the correct and scientific vocabulary to explain what happened – well, it didn’t happen. By the time the child becomes an adult and explain what happened, the statute of limitations has run out.


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    JYJames wrote:

    But the child may sense something is wrong

    I remember reading an article that said you shouldn’t make a child hug or kiss an adult they don’t want to, and it’s basically for reasons like this. Sometimes children are just not keen on someone, but then again they may be picking up on something or having a bad experience.


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    Velour wrote:

    Off-topic prayer request.

    I am extremely worried about a homeless woman who is blind and has a service dog.

    Count me in for prayer on her behalf.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Off-topic prayer request.
    I am extremely worried about a homeless woman who is blind and has a service dog.
    Count me in for prayer on her behalf.

    Thank you so much, Muff!


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    Velour wrote:

    Off-topic prayer request.
    I am extremely worried about a homeless woman who is blind and has a service dog.
    I realized that when I went to a mega church, at the invitation from a friend, that
    this woman was in the choir and in a job support group that I attended briefly between jobs.
    I emailed the mega church and asked for their help in finding her a place to live through social services, care for herself, caregivers, veterinary care for her dog (and a bath).
    The woman once lived in an apartment near me. But she was laid off from her computer job.
    Thanks friends. The mega church does have social workers and therapists on staff, people connected to the community who know services available.

    You got it!


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    Velour wrote:

    Off-topic prayer request.

    I am extremely worried about a homeless woman who is blind and has a service dog.
    I realized that when I went to a mega church, at the invitation from a friend, that
    this woman was in the choir and in a job support group that I attended briefly between jobs.

    I emailed the mega church and asked for their help in finding her a place to live through social services, care for herself, caregivers, veterinary care for her dog (and a bath).

    The woman once lived in an apartment near me. But she was laid off from her computer job.

    Thanks friends. The mega church does have social workers and therapists on staff, people connected to the community who know services available.

    I am praying thanks that God has brought this poor woman into your caring hands. She is VERY vulnerable, yes. Her situation is heart-breaking. I do think she will be cared for now, as you are on the case, Mountain Shepherdess. 🙂


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    Thanks Patriciamc and Christiane for praying for the needs of that Christian woman, who is now blind and homeless. And her service dog. They both need care.