First?

” Also why are there rarely any blue collar workers who are elders”?

I have been wondering about that myself for the last 30 years. Just off the top of my head I can think of three men of God, humble, knowledgeable in The Word , and with a lot of common sense. One was a Greyhound bus driver, one was a firefighter, and the third us a glassblower. They would have been better elders than some of their white collar counterparts. I live in Silicon Valley where education is god. The more status the better. Our friend, the fire fighter died in June. At his funeral so many people said how much he meant to them and how he lived his faith and was a class act and set the bar high for the rest of us. Why he was never asked to be an elder or deacon in the church us beyond me. He made his mark though and many came to faith in Christ from watching this man live out his faith.

Therein lies the problem. The revelation and the transformation in the life of the preacher, which then directly impacts the anointing and impact of the sermon, comes directly through and because of the “grunt work” of study and sermon prep. You can’t skip the valley, but these guys are definitely trying. The result is spiritual junk food, devoid of any real nutrients that also slowly kills the ones who regularly eat it. What a joke.

So, all it takes to be a great pastor these days is a group of good script writers?
I thought that was called acting – as in making a living pretending to be something you’re not!

These poor, overwrought pastors like Chandler and Driscoll need to try teaching school for a while: 6 classes per day; 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 different grade levels; each class with it’s own challenges; grading papers getting the 9 week grade reports in on time; parent-teacher conferences; after school staff meetings; bus duty; discipline problems and paperwork………
Or, maybe they could work at a factory; sore back, aching feet, calluses and blisters; a production facility on second or third shift; where you are evaluated before you are even considered for a raise or a promotion; gotta be there, no matter how bad the weather is, or you’re written up …….
Better yet, ship them boyz my way. It’s tobacco cutting and housing time and farmers around here can always use a couple more temp hands. We’ll put Mark Driscoll in the top tier of a dark-fired tobacco barn somewhere. See how hard he thinks preaching once a week is then!

Yeah, these guys need to try living in the real world for a change.

I would not be surprised at all to see that younger ministers in smaller churches hoping to “move up the ladder” to the bigger church/bigger salary/bigger housing/bigger car also use “sermon services” so they can have time to focus on marketing themselves to the bigger church. So much emphasis is placed on “church growth” this seems just another portion of that method.

So Docent Group is like those places online where you can buy a ready-made term paper for your class?

I personally would not respect a pastor who made this comment

Well known preachers spend between 1 and 35 hours on sermon prep

– Mark Driscoll – 1 to 2 hours. A couple years ago, Driscoll caused a bit of a ruckus when he tweeted, “Prepping 2 sermons today. Thankfully, a sermon takes about as long to prep as preach.” Last week he tweeted something similar, “Time to put the sermon together for Sunday. 1-2 hours.” Obviously, a lot of pastors are surprised by those numbers. Driscoll explains:

By God’s grace my memory is very unusual. I can still remember a section of a book I read 20 years ago while preaching and roll with it. I’ve also never sat down to memorize a Bible verse. Yet, many just stick, and I can pull them up from memory as I go. Lastly, I’m a verbal processor. I think out loud, which is what preaching is for me. A degree in speech and over 10,000 hours of preaching experience also helps. And most importantly and thankfully, the Holy Spirit always helps.

When I get up to preach, the jokes, illustrations, cross-references, and closing happen extemporaneously. I never teach others how to preach, as my method is not exactly a replicable method—nor a suggested one. But it works for me.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

So Docent Group is like those places online where you can buy a ready-made term paper for your class?

Yes. Check out the link I just posted.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I’d love to see the results of running sermon transcripts from everyone’s favorite megapastors through Turnitin. Could be fun!

I wonder who owns the copyright on the research, since not a few celebrity pastors take sermon series and turn them into books. A quick search of Docent’s website was unilluminating. I suspect we’d actually have to get a contract to peruse to find out who owns what, and whether Docent would get a cut of any books, videos, etc.

I wonder if there’s any pastor among the TWW readership who could maybe find out for us?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

So Docent Group is like those places online where you can buy a ready-made term paper for your class?

Yeah, or hiring a ghostwriter. Life is sooooo hard for these poor pastors. Boo hoo. 🙁

Leslie wrote:

” Also why are there rarely any blue collar workers who are elders”?

I have been wondering about that myself for the last 30 years.

I have noticed this pattern as well, and I think it can be explained by several factors…

1) churches (at least the ones I have seen) are almost as segregated by class as they are by race. Wealthy churches tend to draw wealthy parishioners.

2) our cultural emphasis on ‘success’. The ‘Elders’ I have seen tend to have standing outside of the church community, which is leveraged both within and outside the congregation.

3) the traits you mention as making a good elder? Well, when push comes to shove, most American churches or Christians could give two figs.

Another thing about blue collar workers. Many are self-motivated and used to exercising good sense and making decisions for themselves. They are not steeped in the culture of board meetings, being ‘team players’ and other office culture that is more directly transferable to the church organization.

Josh wrote:

Bill’s already done the research the manual “old fashioned” way

Google is now old fashioned, it is so hard to keep up. I don’t have a smart phone either but that carries the benefit of irritating my techie colleagues when I pull out the old Palm phone. Anyone in their early twenties will say what is that? Kinda like someone younger than fifty hasn’t heard of a vacuum tube.

Inspiration is one thing. Musicians listen to all kinds of music to help them play with heart during worship. Pastors can be inspired by other pastors messages and use that in their presentation. Bach used to write a cantata a week around litergy I suppose. If a pastor is just reciting another’s script…then maybe just hire an actor to perform the Sunday sermon?

When I was growing up, the pastor/minister’s primary role was caring for the flock. Preaching a sermon was just one part of that, well overshadowed by visiting and ministering to the sick, the helpless, the grieving, the rejoicing, teaching the truth and living out the faith in the real world. He and his family lived in and were part of the community they served.
What a travesty these rich dudebros have made of what was once a high and noble calling, now turned into the refuge of scoundrels and braggarts.
Come Lord Jesus, please.

Elizabeth Lee wrote:

You know, I was aware of this kind of service. I had always wondered exactly what this “research” looks like. Until today. After perusing the Docent website I went to their Facebook page. I found that they had linked to a “gift” for pastors who needed help with their Easter sermon this year.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyklstursdm5if0/Easter%20Power%20brief.pdf?dl=0

The 17-page “brief” comes complete with paragraphs written in first person about what happened when “I” was in seminary. It also touches on gender roles(!?!) and gives three options to use for a conclusion to the sermon.

Oh. My.

Wow! So basically, lies. Fraud.

I recently pulled up next to a highly customized motorcycle at a stoplight. On the tank was a well executed picture of a skull. There were several trim items that carried out the skull motif. There was even a skull dangling from the chain hanging from his pocket. While this guy was attempting to channel a tough guy biker image a la Hell’s Angels, there were prominent indications it was just a facade. These included the full face helmet and the fact that the pipes were barely audible. Base on the image he was trying to portray, he was a fake.

The thing that grieves me most about pastors using services such as Docent and those that are provide pre-written sermons is that our young people are looking for church to be, if nothing else, authentic. A pastor who is not presenting his own thoughts gleaned from his own preparation based on his own experiences and study will eventually come off as “all hat and no cattle”.

FW Rez wrote:

I recently pulled up next to a highly customized motorcycle at a stoplight.

BTW: I was going to make this illustration available for republishing for a small fee but then I realized I would just be setting myself up for the inevitable offer of a free sample of See’s candy, which I gather is the official currency of TWW.

I’m sure it is difficult for pastors to give sermons, notably in this era of superstars like Piper, Osteen, et al. I’m sure some people in the congregation wonder why they can’t just sit at home and watch Matt Chandler live-streamed and call it church — and I’m sure a lot of pastors feel like this is “competition.”

That doesn’t excuse this stuff.

My church’s pastor(s) rarely go over 20 minutes. They rarely seem to need to “knock it out of the park” to compete with the big-named peoples. That’s because prayer, music, scripture, communion, and more prayer take up the time — the need to make a killer sermon every week is relieved when it’s not the main draw. I’m noticing the PDF linked above doesn’t line up with the Easter sermon where I’m from, so I’m pretty happy.

It’d be nice to see churches take note.

David wrote:

I’m sure some people in the congregation wonder why they can’t just sit at home and watch Matt Chandler live-streamed and call it church — and I’m sure a lot of pastors feel like this is “competition.”

If church was about fellowship with the body, the sermon wouldn’t be the competition. Pastors and churches who are working are about more than the sermon.

It would truly be interesting to know how many Pastors use mostly other people’s work in their sermons and do not credit these people or sources. I think it would be shocking!

mot wrote:

It would truly be interesting to know how many Pastors use mostly other people’s work in their sermons and do not credit these people or sources. I think it would be shocking!

In one local church, the folks in the pew figured it out. The pastor refused to change his work habits and eventually lost his position. Count it a win for congregational government.

This post reminds me of the reference to Fordyce’s Sermons in Pride and Prejudice. If you were an Anglican minister who needed ideas, that was a handy go-to volume.

siteseer wrote:

So do these guys spend any time in God’s word?

Why would they need to?!

FW Rez wrote:

BTW: I was going to make this illustration available for republishing for a small fee but then I realized I would just be setting myself up for the inevitable offer of a free sample of See’s candy, which I gather is the official currency of TWW.

Indeed.

mot wrote:

It would truly be interesting to know how many Pastors use mostly other people’s work in their sermons and do not credit these people or sources. I think it would be shocking!

I think you’re on to something.

“I’ve had it with the prophets who get all their sermons secondhand from each other. Yes, I’ve had it with them. They make up stuff and then pretend it’s a real sermon” (Jeremiah 23:30 MES).

We don’t need preachers who go to a canned sermon outline … we need preachers who go to the Lord for a word. There’s a vast difference in the spiritual condition of folks who sit under borrowed sermons vs. those who sit under preachers who come out of a prayer closet with a now-word! Sermons by subscription are not connected to the Holy Spirit; the Word + the Spirit of Truth = Revealed Truth. First century preachers devoted themselves to a study of God’s Word and prayer; the 21st century pulpit should follow the same plan … wouldn’t that be refreshing?!!

FW Rez wrote:

#5 “Another way to accept help from others is to give up the need to discover everything yourself.

Why this idea that you need to be constantly ‘discovering’ something. Can they not just preach goodness and kindness based on the text?

Max wrote:

Charisma + Gift of Gab + Canned Sermons = Mega-Church Pastor
God’s anointing is no longer required to have a successful ministry in America.

Do canned sermons where somebody else has already done the ‘research’ explain why there are so many mega pastors who never went to or finished seminary? They don’t have to actually know anything! They can just cut and paste stuff other people think into their sermons, put a gloss on it, and send it into the world.

Lea wrote:

Do canned sermons where somebody else has already done the ‘research’ explain why there are so many mega pastors who never went to or finished seminary? They don’t have to actually know anything! They can just cut and paste stuff other people think into their sermons, put a gloss on it, and send it into the world.

With all of these church plants (my ex-NeoCalvinist church being one), I think there are
also many small church pastors who have slipshod academic credentials as well. My ex-pastor claimed to have a *Ph.D.* It’s from a diploma mill in Independence, Missouri, unaccredited according to the government, and the *Ph.D.* costs $299. The Bible College’s “accrediting agency” was brought up on fraud charges by the Missouri Attorney General’s Office and isn’t supposed to be operating at all in Missouri.

@ Deb:

Velour is correct. I was writing from the pov of someone like Driscoll.

Deb, my email at work is having problems. But I want to let you and Todd know about this. The Washington Post is featured the controversy over yesterday’s Gospel Coalition article by Gaye Clark.

Make sure you read this, this would be a good post for you guys

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/11/god-called-my-bluff-a-christian-blogger-faces-fury-over-a-post-about-her-white-daughters-marriage-to-a-black-man/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_mm-christian-blogger-12pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

I teach 8 classes per day, last year 5 preps, this year 4; it is easier now than in my early years of teaching due to the accumulation of time with material (chemistry and physics) and experience teaching. I would think that an earnest preacher would benefit from years passing marinating in biblical content and consistent preparation as they ‘rightly handle the word of truth’. Those who take shortcuts in preparation will never receive the benefit of contextual experience–they will always be running from shortcut to shortcut and never building the individual framework of loving confrontation with God and His Word. An immediate loss for themselves–a long term loss for their congregations.

Nancy2 wrote:

These poor, overwrought pastors like Chandler and Driscoll need to try teaching school for a while: 6 classes per day; 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 different grade levels; each class with it’s own challenges; grading papers getting the 9 week grade reports in on time; parent-teacher conferences; after school staff meetings; bus duty; discipline problems and paperwork………

What happens with teachers who rely on materials prepared by others is that when a student asks a question outside the immediate context of the provided material, they sometimes have no response or a poor response. High school students are pretty good at recognizing when a teacher is unprepared in terms of content knowledge even when they present what looks like an incredible well-packaged lesson. Would that church members practice that same kind of discernment. Credibility is difficult to earn, easy to lose.

This must be why there is so much apathy among pastors for Grudem’s and Ware’s heresy – pastors simply don’t think that doctrine or preaching or thinking for yourself is important. Just get someone else to tell you what matters. So much for the pastor as a shepherd from false teaching.

@Dee @Deb

Do you use a Docent service to prepare your posts?

By the way, for those of you who haven’t seen it, here is my YELP review about my EX-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood-promoting/John MacAthur-ite
church.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-sunnyvale

I guess my review must really pack a punch of solid information, as I’ve noticed that my former church is trying to sink it.

People who are stuck in this church, who know that there’s something terribly wrong there,
have contacted me asking me for help so they can get out.

I’ve explained everything that you’ve all taught me — to them! Relief.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-sunnyvale

Please vote that my review was “Helpful” so that people can find it on the internet.
By the way, I’m the 1-star review that is NOT written in fluent Christianese as H.U.G.
said.

I probably study the Bible a lot more than most of these megachurch pastors. No wonder I never could stand to listen to any of them.

This might explain why I’ve been so bored in most churches the past 10 years. It seemed like I heard the same sermon series over and over again. Nobody went deep into the Word. I was so frustrated with going to church that I almost stopped going.

The past 6 months of attending a tiny Lutheran church was the first time I had actually learned something weekly from a sermon. And his sermons were never over 20 minutes.

@ FW Rez:
Was that in the D.C. metro area? If so, I attended that church. I attended for a little over a year and was wondering why I kept getting less and less from the new pastor’s sermons. Turns out they were plagarized. If I never hear another sermon with alliteration (e.g. P – protect your heart, pray, and praise) I’ll be good.

Bridget wrote:

Bill M wrote:
How do they build an oppressive authoritarian culture when they don’t work that hard? Delegate the enforcement?
Easy-peasy. They write it into the by-laws and membership contracts.

Exhibit A: My ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, renting from the
Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA.

http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws

http://s3.amazonaws.com/churchplantmedia-cms/grace_bible_fellowship_of_silicon_valley_sunnyvale_ca/gbf_membership_covenant_100917_approved.pdf

GBFSV is an authoritarian, NeoCalvinist, 9Marxist, John MacArthur-ite church.

http://www.gbfsv.org/our-ministry-distinctives

Being a member of Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley was an eye-opening experience, a proverbial Salem Witch Trials II, as I saw dear men and women Christians punished before all for the slightest dissent, excommunicated and shunned. They did it to a doctor in his 70’s! Faithful husband and father. His wife called the pastors/elders “liars”. The good doctor was invited to a meeting at church by the pastors/elders. The doctor went thinking they were going to ask him to be a church officer. Much to the doctor’s surprise, the pastors/elders screamed and yelled at him, falsely accused him. (Countless ex-members
report the same thing was done to them.)

The senior pastor has a *Ph.D.* from an Independence, Missouri, diploma mill for $299.
It’s a non-accredited “college” according to the government. The Bible College’s only
“accrediting” agency was brought up on fraud charges by the Missouri Attorney General’s Office and is not supposed to be operating at all in Missouri. I notified the State of Missouri that indeed they are operating.

My ex-pastor also now claims on the church website to be doing “post doctoral” work.
Whatever that is supposed to mean to someone who bought his Phony Degree.

Former CLCer wrote:

@ FW Rez:
Was that in the D.C. metro area? If so, I attended that church. I attended for a little over a year and was wondering why I kept getting less and less from the new pastor’s sermons. Turns out they were plagarized. If I never hear another sermon with alliteration (e.g. P – protect your heart, pray, and praise) I’ll be good.

DFW area. Preaching purchased prophetic prose is pretty profitable.

Christiane wrote:

it is strange that Driscoll feels the need to purchase the thoughts of others for a sermon, while all the time claiming that God speaks directly to him

Why would God speak to Driscoll? What is it in Driscoll’s life that has proven him worthy of a word from God? God doesn’t come alongside ministries and ministers that have an agenda other than the Great Commission.

Bridget wrote:

Bill M wrote:
How do they build an oppressive authoritarian culture when they don’t work that hard? Delegate the enforcement?
Easy-peasy. They write it into the by-laws and membership contracts.

By the way, Jack and Bill noticed the red-flags at my ex-church – Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA) – after
reading GBFSV’s website. http://www.gbfsv.org/
Jack 7/26/16:

“Jack:
“Just went to the website of this church. The membership contract is a vague rip from Purpose Driven Life but the bylaws are the meat & potatoes!
In short, this corporation has no members. Members abrogate their rights upon signing the contract.
Just reading the bylaws lights up every warning alarm on the TWW checklist of what to look for in an abusive church. http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws
No doubt new attendees are love bombed before they read the fine print.
You should write this up as a case study of churches to stay away from.”

Bill M. 7/26/16

“BTW, I looked over the website of your former church, their resources page reads as a veritable who’s who of nefarious organizations discussed here. I also note that at least half the elders are staff, this inverts the accountability and put way too much power in the hands of the the pastor. The preface to their statement of faith gives me the shivers and don’t get me started on their membership covenant.”

siteseer wrote:

Do the pew people realize they’ve hired an actor to perform the script?

The modern church has constructed platforms over the prayer altars which used to be there. This gives the “pastor” more room to strut his stuff. Instead of praying, we now applaud in church. Entertainment is the theme of the day. And it’s there, because the pew wants it to be. As long as the pew is satisfied with entertainers, instead of pastors, that’s the way it will be. Driscoll was (is?) successful because he is a good showman.

FW Rez wrote:

free sample of See’s candy, which I gather is the official currency of TWW.

Tastes better than Bitcoin!

ishy wrote:

I probably study the Bible a lot more than most of these megachurch pastors.

Folks like you scare the living daylights out of pastors. They can’t pull the wool over your eyes.

@ Nick Bulbeck:
I resemble that remark! ;^)

ishy wrote:

Sometimes I wish I could go to church with all you people.

You are!

@ Deb:
@ Max:

Glad you both spotted that one…

🙂

Deb wrote:

It would be a special place! We are together here in spirit, which may be more important.

I do need to thank you all for helping me learn the TGC lingo. I’ve been able to spot all the Calvinista churches in my new town (and so avoid them)!

Darlene wrote:

I wonder if Docent is the *go-to* source for all pastors regardless of their denomination. Do they script write for Word of Faith pastors, Methodist, Lutheran as well as Calvinist pastors? What about women pastors? Think of all the possibilities.

My favorite service happens Wednesday at noon. It follows the lectionary and a calendar of saints’ lives, so the preacher’s challenge is to craft a short sermon that draws on these elements and speaks to our little congregation.

These sermons are bright jewels. The preacher is close enough to touch, speaking without notes (or rarely with an index card). Over time each preacher’s way of thinking becomes familiar to the group. We hear from seminarians as well as our own clergy and occasional visitors. The preachers are acutely aware of each worshiper’s eyes, face, responses.

None of this can be outsourced, except to the Holy Spirit.

Deb wrote:

@ ishy: How many are there? Yikes!

At least 3, though none of them are large. I am not sure about SBC-converted churches, as I just totally avoided even looking at SBC churches. One of those three is an Acts29 church, but it and the two others both had something like "We believe the purpose of our church is to proclaim the gospel through expository preaching" on their websites.

I just backed away… not slowly.

K.D. wrote:

I did not have time to sit around for several hours and ” do nothing” waiting, even during Thanksgiving weekend

Really! Thanksgiving is only three weeks away from semester finals! Gotta catch up, get prepped, and be ready to slam those final grades in before Christmas break!

ishy wrote:

The past 6 months of attending a tiny Lutheran church was the first time I had actually learned something weekly from a sermon. And his sermons were never over 20 minutes.

I learned more from a gifted young Lutheran (ELCA) woman in her last year of seminary than from all the alpha-male-pastor-dawgs during my years at Calvary Chapel. The same guys who insist that she’s not spoesta’ ‘teach’ based solely on plumbing received at birth.

siteseer wrote:

Another thing about blue collar workers. Many are self-motivated and used to exercising good sense and making decisions for themselves. They are not steeped in the culture of board meetings, being ‘team players’ and other office culture that is more directly transferable to the church organization.

i.e. They Don’t Do Dilbert.
Or Office Space.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

The modern church has constructed platforms over the prayer altars which used to be there. This gives the “pastor” more room to strut his stuff. Instead of praying, we now applaud in church. Entertainment is the theme of the day.

“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND
COME INSIDE! COME INSIDE!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48

Velour wrote:

Off topic, but this just came through my Twitter feed about a Baptist pastor who tried to kill his wife & cheated his mother out of her savings. He just got 50 years in prison.

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2016/03/15/baptist-minister-who-paid-congregants-to-burn-his-wife-to-death-sentenced-to-50-years

You know the first thing arson investigators look for (besides an empty gasoline/petrol can near the origin point)?

TIMELY REMOVAL OF VALUABLES JUST BEFORE THE FIRE.
And this pastor(TM) checked off that box big-time.

@ Gram3:

Thanks Gram! I keep hoping one day Aimee decides she’s over all these men and comes over to the dark side!

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to @ my reply to the Honourable Lady.

#parliamentaryLanguage

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
sad thing is that the lady who wrote the article didn’t understand why it WAS perceived as ‘racist’.

She was really surprised apparently by the adverse reaction to her article.

Our views are shaped by the culture we live in, as is the language we use to describe those views. I would say this lady lives in a culture that was more prevalent a generation or two ago. But today, thank God, our concepts about the dignity of the human person are coming more into focus in the Church.

They could be relieved once and for all by humbling themselves, taking a hatchet to the stage, tearing down the spotlights and renouncing their positions as paid professionals who consider themselves experts and do the planning, vision-casting and work of the church. After that, the people whom the Lord has given a gift of teaching could step up and cover teaching in a peer-to-peer format (because it’s biblical) rather than guru-to-groveling-follower format (because it’s not). Then they could go out and learn skills that actually benefit others and get real jobs, and if the Lord actually is nudging them to say or do something within the fellowship, they could say it or do it, rather than looking for gurus and grifters who give them what itching ears want to hear. Would certainly be beneficial for their long-term spiritual health.

Law Prof wrote:

They could be relieved once and for all by humbling themselves, taking a hatchet to the stage, tearing down the spotlights and renouncing their positions as paid professionals who consider themselves experts and do the planning, vision-casting and work of the church.

You mean become Nobodies instead of C*E*L*E*B*R*I*T*I*E*S??????

mirele wrote:

local TV station Phoenix News12 put together a really good package

The coverage was a fairly accurate expose on Pastor Mark’s shenanigans. Although, as I recall, he used $250,000 in church funds to buy his book onto the New York Times bestseller list, not $25,000 as reported in the news piece. That fine point would have made a more sensational warning to his Scottsdale congregation about his past misuse of tithes and offerings. Is my memory correct on this?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

So Docent Group is like those places online where you can buy a ready-made term paper for your class?

More-or-less; when students pull this in academia, we give them zeros, fail them in class or expel them.

@ Gram3:

I admit I did not bother to read Burks original. I figured it would be a repeat of Mohlers strategy and it is. Now the key concepts are’ big tent of orthodox’. Yes, you had us wrong all the time. The are trying to walk back the cat without being wrong. It was just a nuance of orthodoxy. Poor Burk. He just believes what he is told to believe.

But you know, this is not new. Truman and others waited long enough. The timing of all this has always bothered me. Oh well.

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

The irony is they thought it would make them look like progressives or something. That is how much of a bubble they live in. The rebranding is not going well…..

Gram3 wrote:

Not to be missed: Aimee Byrd exposes Denny Burk’s latest nuancing of heresy in a very non-indirect and unwinsome way. Amazing takedown of the talking points being put out by the CBMW crew.

http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/what-denny-burk-could-do-0#.V6zmRI-cHIU

Hope the link works.

Excellent article. At the end she says, “All of that teaching needs to be retracted, with apologies at this point, for CBMW to have any credit in my book. Denny Burk could lead the way in doing that.”

My question is, if they were to retract all of the faulty teachings, what exactly would be left?

One thing is certain… I’m developing a lot of respect for Aimee Byrd.

In terms of pastors/teachers using Docent and other services, I do think there should be some sort of standard for listing your sources, like footnotes. And in the circles, I travel in, a significant number of pastors don’t have a seminary education. Especially in groups like ARC, theological training is not necessary, and I can see how a service like Docent would be tempting to someone in this sort of position.

Keep in mind, I’m not completely sold on seminary education. I’ve seen a couple of years in seminary completely mess up a couple of guys who had been very good ministers before. I almost think some sort of apprenticeship program would be better… Like the one Paul and Timothy used.

GSD wrote:

I’ve seen a couple of years in seminary completely mess up a couple of guys who had been very good ministers before.

What happened to them?

NJ wrote:

Now if I can just find one…

They do exist. 🙂
If you can’t find one, go out into the green cathedrals and pitch a tent near a lake, where the stars serve as candles. And if you don’t mind, you can join the local critters’ for vespers, and then stick around for night vigil and be blessed by the silence. 🙂

@ mirele:
Oops! Didn’t see this before I wrote my last comment.

GSD wrote:

I’m not completely sold on seminary education. I’ve seen a couple of years in seminary completely mess up a couple of guys who had been very good ministers before. I almost think some sort of apprenticeship program would be better… Like the one Paul and Timothy used.

Education does not produce one ounce of revelation! In former days, SBC seminary graduates were mentored by senior pastors before they moved along to their own pastorates. They would serve as associate pastors while turning their educational training into practical experience. Now, reformed graduates immediately hit the road after they collect their seminary diplomas as “lead pastors” at SBC church plants or move into a community and take over an established church by stealth and deception. The Paul-Timothy model was a good idea; it was essentially the practice used for over 100 years within SBC and should still be in place.

GSD wrote:

I’m not completely sold on seminary education

And neither am I. You can’t buy anointing at a seminary, learn it in Bible classes, or get it by osmosis from a Docent sermon outline. It’s a touch of God on those truly called into ministry; not all who pursue a career in ministry are called. During my long Christian journey, some of the best Bible preachers I have sat under were not seminary-trained; they were genuinely called by God and equipped by Him in the Spirit, not the intellect. They had a passion to reach lost souls with a fire in their bones to preach the Gospel … such folks are now slipping into endangered species status.

I just read the blog piece about interracial marriages. As someone else commented, it could have been a good piece if it was titled something like my daughter’s relationship helped me confront my own racism.

On a side note, the author doesn’t even know how to spell “dreds” – she wrote “dreads”. Freudian slip?

Former CLCer wrote:

I just read the blog piece about interracial marriages. As someone else commented, it could have been a good piece if it was titled something like my daughter’s relationship helped me confront my own racism.
On a side note, the author doesn’t even know how to spell “dreds” – she wrote “dreads”. Freudian slip?

A Tweet was forwarded to me yesterday. The mother/author of the article said she deeply regrets all of the pain her article caused and she is in much grief. She asked for prayer.

This is really off topic and may warrant a post of its own at some point. I would like to bring up when the Pastor is abused by the Denomination and/or the congregation. I copied two good Pastors we knew in the ’80’s on a post from “A Cry for Justice.” I thanked both of these Pastors for not being like that, for being good, kind, loving Pastors, yet still speaking the truth. They both emailed me back. One said, abuse goes both ways you know. No one ever talks about Pastors who are abused.

Well that got me thinking. Both of these Men left the church to go to the mission field. Another great Pastor in another church did the same. My son in law , who was licensed and ordained in the Assembly of God church left his church to become a carpenter. Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart. One preceded the other. One of my daughters brothers in law got booted from his church in Nebraska , had a nervous breakdown, ended up in a mental facility and will never be the same again. None of these men were Neo-Cal and none had mega churches.

I just felt led to share this. I know it is off topic and I’m sorry. Nit sorry enough not to post though.

Former CLCer wrote:

I just read the blog piece about interracial marriages. As someone else commented, it could have been a good piece if it was titled something like my daughter’s relationship helped me confront my own racism.

On a side note, the author doesn’t even know how to spell “dreds” – she wrote “dreads”. Freudian slip?

That’s what I was thinking, although I didn’t read the piece. I don’t think people should be discouraged from saying they struggled with something and realized they had been wrong before. Even possibly even especially if it’s something very touchy. But the tone would be very important.

Velour wrote:

She asked for prayer.

I’ve already added her to my list. She sounded so confused by what happened that I figured she didn’t know how what she wrote WAS offensive or could be offensive, and that’s a very sad situation to be in regardless. How many other people are in the same boat? She reminds me of some of the older members of my mother’s people who were Southern born and bred. They had no clue. None. Another generation, another century. Very sad.

Christiane wrote:

Velour wrote:
She asked for prayer.
I’ve already added her to my list. She sounded so confused by what happened that I figured she didn’t know how what she wrote WAS offensive or could be offensive, and that’s a very sad situation to be in regardless. How many other people are in the same boat? She reminds me of some of the older members of my mother’s people who were Southern born and bred. They had no clue. None. Another generation, another century. Very sad.

Thank you!

Velour wrote:

And I think about all of the dear saints – men and women Christians – who have been booted out of seminaries as rabid factions have taken over. Dr. Sheri Klouda, a conservative and professor of Hebrew, was hired by the trustees of at Southwestern Theological Seminary and later fired by Paige Patterson (president) who didn’t believe women should teach men. Dr. Klouda was the sole support for her family as her husband was gravely ill. Dr. Klouda was rendered destitute and had to sell her blood to pay for basic bills for her and her husband. Churches like Wade Burleson’s (here for E-Church) on Sundays in Enid, OK,
gave the Kloudas money to pay for their bills.

Here’s the link to the article Wade Burleson wrote about Dr. Sheri Klouda:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2007/01/sheri-klouda-gender-discrimination_17.html

brian wrote:

I garnered little if any understanding from the institutional church who either called the folks a work with God’s little angels or possessed and a variety of labels in between. They are people just like we all are nothing more nothing less. They are people of great integrity, honesty, and in many ways true gratitude but so are many other people groups. I hope that makes sense. Well I wrote all that trying to lay a foundation. In my Christian experience it was clear, even though only stated by a few directly that if you do not understand the Gospel cognitively and continue to hold to those doctrines with faithfulness you are not of God and you will Go directly to hell the second you draw your last breath

Thanks for sharing your story.

I’m not surprised that there are many churches that place their doctrines, and a lock step understanding of The Gospel, above the Love of God. God is bigger than them, their doctrines, or their foolish ideas.

At my ex-church, NeoCalvinist, I was horrified and heart broken that the first church member “disciplined before all” (hundreds of members) was a godly, middle-aged, professional Christian woman who had a special ministry working with the mentally ill in group homes and with elderly in convalescent hospitals. Her “crime”? The pastors/elders
said she hadn’t “obeyed” and “submitted” to her husband and that they had “worked with her for a really long time [to no avail]. And she is now at Step 3 of the Church Discipline process.”

The senior pastor controlled the narrative and ran her in to the ground. She wasn’t there.
He and the pastors/elders were upset that she had left for another church, which apparently wasn’t her right to do as an adult, a voter, or a tax payer. She thought they were nuts which is why she left. The senior pastor ordered hundreds of church members to “puruse her”, basically stalk and harass her to “repentance”. For WHAT????? She was harassed to the point that she moved out of the family home, disconnected her cell phone and her email. The senior pastor, she told me, had come to her home and screamed at her.

If he’d done to me what she says he did to her, I would have called 9-1-1 and had him arrested. We build jails and prisons for the likes of that ex-pastor and those elders/thugs.

That woman had more common decency and love in her pinky than ANY of those pastors/elders have. They are a disgrace to The Gospel.

Iroebuck wrote:

Leslie wrote:
My son in law , who was licensed and ordained in the Assembly of God church left his church to become a carpenter. Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart. One preceded the other. One of my daughters brothers in law got booted from his church in Nebraska , had a nervous breakdown, ended up in a mental facility and will never be the same again.
Why were they booted out? You have provided no details of what I imagine is a messy and complicated situation…

It was and I was eyewitness to four of the situations. And personally spoke with the other 3. I would be happy to go into more detail, but out if respect to Dee and Deb I don’t want to go off topic and derail this post. I will take my lead from them.

@ David:

“I’m sure some people in the congregation wonder why they can’t just sit at home and watch Matt Chandler live-streamed and call it church”
+++++++++++++

if this is possible (if TVC broadcasts their serices/sermons somehow), they would see how boring & dull it all really is. oh, my goodness, matt chandler is utterly boring in content and delivery.

what can make any sermon/service at any church seem engaging has nothing to do with sermon content & delivery — it’s the experience of being in a warmed-up crowd and hearing something live. watch a recording of it and it’s flat, boring, dull, just someone jabbering away with well-timed gestures and voice inflection.

Lydia wrote:

I figured it would be a repeat of Mohlers strategy and it is.

Yes, Mohler’s triangulation attempt was a bit late and a bit too obvious, and Denny is really sacrificing his intellectual integrity for…..what?

GSD wrote:

One thing is certain… I’m developing a lot of respect for Aimee Byrd.

Me, too. In what universe is God more pleased with a man like Driscoll teaching God’s word than a woman like Aimee? Naturally I am assuming for the sake of argument that Driscoll even teaches God’s word. That is one question you will never, ever hear one of the Gospel Glitterati or their fanboys answer.

Sam wrote:

This actually explains a lot about Driscoll’s sermon styles. Looking back on it, I now realize that the sexual references, misogyny and shock tactics might have been used to disguise the fact that Driscoll had no “teaching” or “preaching” gifts. That, or he felt that prayer and Divine inspiration were not “hip” enough to draw large crowds. Isn’t there a verse about the small door that few enter… (Maybe he should think about that.)

I think you’re on to something. Maybe he really has no talent for preaching or teaching. Maybe it’s all about having power.

roebuck wrote:

Velour wrote:
roebuck wrote:
Leslie wrote:
I would be happy to go into more detail, but out if respect to Dee and Deb I don’t want to go off topic and derail this post. I will take my lead from them.
Then why did you pop in with this totally OT and irrelevant post to begin with? Did you have a point to make?
Leslie also posted recently about knowing one of my ex-pastors/elders at the abusive,
NeoCal, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley and that person has “good character”.
Knows what “good character” this person has for 30 years.
Hmmm….scores of former church members describe meetings in which we were screamed at, threatened, lied to and lied about, subjected to vicious excommunications and shunnings. “Character”? Who would tolerate that abuse for a single second? Toward themselves? A loved one?
Something indeed seem a bit off about ‘Lesley’. I really don’t get her point, if there is one.
You know, anyone can write anythng here. Deesn’t make it so…

Indeed.

In several online reviews about my abusive ex-NeoCalvinist church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, including on YELP, I have mentioned The Wartburg Watch as a resource.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-sunnyvale

If you find my review “Helpful” please vote for it. It will help others find it on the internet.

Headless Unicorn Guy (H.U.G.) said recently that my 1-star review on YELP (they wouldn’t let me vote any lower) was the only one about my ex-church that wasn’t written in
fluent Christianese.

@ Leslie:

Who is it that you know at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. You said they have “good character”. I asked whom you were talking about before and you never responded.

Velour wrote:

@ Leslie:
Who is it that you know at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. You said they have “good character”. I asked whom you were talking about before and you never responded.

I couldn’t because to name names would cause irreparable hurt to innocent people

@ Leslie:

Nice try. I asked you a simple question. I’ve asked it before. Whom do you know there?
You said that person has good character, you’ve known them for 30 years.

Velour wrote:

@ Leslie:
Nice try. I asked you a simple question. I’ve asked it before. Whom do you know there?
You said that person has good character, you’ve known them for 30 years.

Frankly, my dear, it is none of your business

Leslie wrote:

Velour wrote:
@ Leslie:
Nice try. I asked you a simple question. I’ve asked it before. Whom do you know there?
You said that person has good character, you’ve known them for 30 years.
Frankly, my dear, it is none of your business

Pity.

I guess their “character” couldn’t pass the former members’ “character test” after all.

I see this pre-packaged sermon thing as just a logical culmination of a long tradition of bad practice where congregations go to a weird building called a church and all sit passively in pews facing a stage so professional Christians and experts can perform something called “ministry”. And yes, I insist on calling it a stage even though the Worship Pastor may require the worship team to refer to it as a platform, so as not to evoke a performance motivation.

The only step beyond this is live-streaming the Head Pastor’s weekly sermons to eight other “campuses” so a whole bunch of warehoused peeps can sit even more passively in order to receive a quick motivational talk with vaguely Christian overtones.

Is there anything sinful about people listening quietly to someone teaching, or worshiping together with musicians leading from the front?
No I don’t think that these things are wrong in themselves but when “going to church” means they have consistently and pretty completely crowded out the interactive meeting that the Bible actually talks about Christians participating in when they assemble themselves together, which could happen anywhere, and you don’t need a weird building for, then we shouldn’t be surprised that things are getting more and more off track with the whole shebang.

“What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.” 1 Corinthians 14:26

At best something like what the passage above talks about might happen during a cell group or bible study group, in between going over notes from the Pastor’s last sermon, and closely watched over by the Pastor’s lieutenants, ever wary of something powerful happening (like Jesus ministering life through His people) that could end up in the group deciding to split off from the church.

In charismatic churches, once a month there may be a heavily-controlled service called “Holy Ghost Night” (which begs the question, doesn’t the Holy Ghost attend the other services?). There may be a few attempts at prophesying or sharing something, but the Pastor emcee, believing that it is his God-given duty to judge everything that happens, really puts a damper on everything.

“your”, not “you’re”

@ brian:

Brian, my mom taught special education for the first five years of her career. I have great respect for people who work with that population. I know that it is very hard.

Gram3 wrote:

One of the telling lines in her post was where she said that women may question the whole of what they have been taught by the Gospel Glitterati due to the ESS heresy.

Yes. Seems half warning, half sheer frustration possibly anger. And she should be angry. People will be and are being driven from not only comp (which is fine) but also Christianity altogether. At least, driven from church. I was talking to someone at my new church about this, and she said a big baptist church in town preached a very anti woman sermon and that lady left the baptist church entirely. some people are leaving church entirely. Some will never trust a minister again.

This stuff is evil.

Lea wrote:

At least, driven from church. I was talking to someone at my new church about this, and she said a big baptist church in town preached a very anti woman sermon and that lady left the baptist church entirely. some people are leaving church entirely. Some will never trust a minister again.

Southern Baptists are losing a whopping 200,000 living members a year. People aren’t going to stand for it. It is offensive teaching to decent Christian men and women everywhere.

Daisy wrote:

I don’t really think this is the wisest venue to ask the participants to pity pastors who may have been hurt by church-goers.

I grew up in the United Methodist church. When I was in high school we had an outstanding pastor who was driven out by a nasty faction in the congregation. It was religion at its worst. Religious control, domination, and abuse is a sword that cuts both ways. I have never set foot in a UM church since I left high school more than 30 years ago. I am sure that good things are happening in the UM denomination, but I have too many bad memories of what happened to that good man.

Leslie wrote:

I apologize for bringing this up. I just thought there might be some sympathy for Pastors who have been as hurt by this authoritarian movement as the rest of us have been . Men of God who have had their churches taken over. And been forced out. I really regret bringing this up on this post. My heart aches for all who have been hurt.

I thought your comment was a good reminder that this is a sword that cuts both ways.

Law Prof wrote:

Leslie wrote:
I am stunned and saddened that I am being attacked. I do not go to church any more because of the mega church, Neo-cal takeovers, all I am trying to say is that some Pastors have been a victim of this too,. Their churches have been taken over. Many have left the ministry. . I must say that some of you have the same characteristics of those you are blogging against. The fruit of the Spirit is not evident in your exchange of ideas with me. I thought this blog was open to all ideas and opinions. What I had to say may not be popular but there are many hurting ex-pastors out there who either didn’t survive a takeover of their church or have had mental and emotional issues .
Thanks fir being as bad as the people you hate.
Leslie, people are just asking you some questions and being a bit sharp with them. Do you really think that based on a few challenging responses and a couple people saying “prove it up”, you have grounds to immediately play the “no Fruits of the Spirit” and “you’re as bad as the people you hate” cards? I don’t know what’s going on in your life or what’s happened to you, you made some allusions to abuse in churches, and that’s something with which I can relate; you sure might want to think about your demeanor here, because you’re reaction is wildly out of proportion.
</blockquote

I have been responding on this post for over two years, so I expected to have some street cred.i don't think I have ever been out of line and am surprised that I am now suspect. I have been a Christian for many years and have seen a lot. I just did not expect to be so jumped on.

Velour wrote:

@Leslie,
Where do you live? In one post you said you live in San Ramon and in the other post you said you live in Silicon Valley, which is 1-hour away.
“Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart.”
[or about 1-hour South by car…]
“I live in Silicon Valley where education is god.”

I have lived in San Ramon for 20 years. Before that I lived in San Jose for 20 years. Before that I lived in San Mateo. Silicon Valley has come to encompass the entire Bay Area . From Santa Cruz to Santa Rosa to Brentwood.My husband worked in Sunnyvale for many years and I worked in Mountain View.. I led a ministry Team of elementary , middle school and high schoolers to nursing homes in Palo Alto. I grew up in San Mateo. My brother went to Bellarmine. I think that qualifies me as a Silucon Valley resident.
Velour wrote:

@Leslie,
Where do you live? In one post you said you live in San Ramon and in the other post you said you live in Silicon Valley, which is 1-hour away.
“Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart.”
[or about 1-hour South by car…]
“I live in Silicon Valley where education is god.”

Velour wrote:

@Leslie,
Where do you live? In one post you said you live in San Ramon and in the other post you said you live in Silicon Valley, which is 1-hour away.
“Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart.”
[or about 1-hour South by car…]
“I live in Silicon Valley where education is god.”

Velour wrote:

@Leslie,
Where do you live? In one post you said you live in San Ramon and in the other post you said you live in Silicon Valley, which is 1-hour away.
“Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart.”
[or about 1-hour South by car…]
“I live in Silicon Valley where education is god.”

@ Velour:
Velour wrote:

@Leslie,
Where do you live? In one post you said you live in San Ramon and in the other post you said you live in Silicon Valley, which is 1-hour away.
“Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart.”
[or about 1-hour South by car…]
“I live in Silicon Valley where education is god.”

Velour wrote:

@Leslie,
Where do you live? In one post you said you live in San Ramon and in the other post you said you live in Silicon Valley, which is 1-hour away.
“Two Pastors I know we’re booted out of the same church here in San Ramon six years apart.”
[or about 1-hour South by car…]
“I live in Silicon Valley where education is god.”

Ken F wrote:

I have been responding on this post for over two years, so I expected to have some street cred.i don't think I have ever been out of line and am surprised that I am now suspect.

Welcome to the club. It only took a month before I got in hot water. It happened to my wife after her first post. I get the sense that this site attracts people who have been hurt in various ways by religion. So I think it's natural for there to be misunderstandings like this. It doesn't make it fun to be in the limelight, but I can understand why it happens. Overall, I still believe this is a well balanced and mostly respectful site.

Velour wrote:

Leslie said that she knew one of them and that they were of
“good character” and she’d known them for 30 years.

The complicating factor is the hypocrisy and diplicity of abusers. They don’t present the same face to everyone. In the same way that the Doctor you mentioned thought the meeting he was invited to would be to give him a leadership position, it’s possible that Leslie had not yet experienced the other face of those particular leaders. Abusers can only abuse if they can convince people that they are the real deal.

Velour wrote:

Ken F wrote:
Bill M wrote:
I read back through the comments, did I miss something? Some of the questions directed at her sounded of an interrogation.
I had the same thought. It’s easy to fall into the trap of assumimg that everyone in a particular category (pastor/priest) is the same in all respects.
When I recently posted about my abusive, former NeoCalvinist church with the abusive pastors/elders (excommunications, shunnings on trumped up charges incluidng a doctor,
a CPA, and me; horrible screaming sessions at members and all report this level of horrific abuse), Leslie said that she knew one of them and that they were of
“good character” and she’d known them for 30 years.
Leslie didn’t answer my question on the other thread about whom she knew.
Even a first name.
Leslie, curiously, didn’t express any empathy for the scores of former church members and their families who were terribly abused at my ex-church. That’s odd. It was a Salem Witch Trials II.
Then a curious plea for empathy for pastors who’ve been wronged, but curiously never for the victims of clergy abuse, including at my ex-church.

I am not surprised that there has been and is abuse at your former church,. There has been tons of abuse in churches in the valley for years, I have loads of back stories I could share. But I won’t because there are too many innocent people who have been terribly hurt who would be more hurt if I shared. I really did not mean to open a Pandora’s box, I just wanted to share that there is a world of hurt going unnoticed and being misunderstood. Horrible abuses are going on in our churches, but there are a lot of quiet unnoticed people under the scourge of that abuse and unable to tell their story. Telling what I could of their story is what I tried to do here. Attacking the messenger is not going to help people in these abusive churches reach out and get out.

BJ wrote:

Perhaps Leslie used to live in San Ramon and now lives in the Silicon Valley. It’s not uncommon to have friends who live an hour away. When I lived in CA, I had family and friends from Santa Barbara to San Diego. Also, there have to be some good people at your old church that she might know. After all, you went there and you certainly are a person of great character. The story you told about caring for the young man with aids was just lovely! @ Law Prof:
@ Velour:

Thank you for the nice compliment about my story about Sean, the young man who died from AIDS. It was a miraculous Christmas that year.

Yes, there are no doubt many people at my ex-church who are of good character who got caught up in a bad church.

But it’s spiraling further and further out of control. My ex-pastor is like a Mark Driscoll. The pastors/elders are just as sick and twisted. And frankly, just as vile. No excuse for their conduct. The screaming, yelling, threats, rages — they’ve dished out on countless dear Christians of all ages, men and women. Just horrific.

Velour wrote:

Leslie wrote: I am not surprised that there has been and is abuse at your former church Thanks for your empathy.

I , perhaps, am more empathetic than you could ever have imagined.

@ brian:

Brian, you have not sinned. You were not able to care for your mom at home but you saw that she was cared for in the way that you were able. I wasn’t able to care for either of my parents at home, they both had medical problems that were beyond my physical abilities. It is awfully nice when it works out and is possible, but it’s not always possible. In the course of my parents’ care, I met so many kind and caring people who saw their work with the elderly as a calling. There were blessings in the way we went, also.

Ken F wrote:

Velour wrote:
Leslie said that she knew one of them and that they were of
“good character” and she’d known them for 30 years.
The complicating factor is the hypocrisy and diplicity of abusers. They don’t present the same face to everyone. In the same way that the Doctor you mentioned thought the meeting he was invited to would be to give him a leadership position, it’s possible that Leslie had not yet experienced the other face of those particular leaders. Abusers can only abuse if they can convince people that they are the real deal.

This was my experience. Especially in seeker type churches where the facade is always positive and happy. (No cancer allowed) No one could conceive the cool nice guys on stage were tyrants and deceivers behind stage. So, it was set in stone that no one would believe any story of abuse of power. ‘They would never do that and people who just don’t like them for no good reason are just so mean’. And so on. But most who abuse are very careful who they target. Sometimes they get it wrong. When in doubt I look at power differentials and patterns. And remember that most pastors live in bubbles and are often overly sensitive to any offense because of the bubble. And never forget the pastor is the guy with the bully pulpit week after week to influence thinking.

I am sure it happens but I am still amazed to hear of pew sitters who recognize they have any kind of power at all.

@ Velour:

I kind of figured when you named your church something like this would come eventually. I know people who attended the same church for 20 years who have totally different experiences from evil/good. And I say that as an indictment on the church.

This is why it is almost not worth it to tell your story. There are victims of victims everywhere. And you will feel like you have to defend yourself constantly. This is why I stay in the generic realm of the power and corruption. The systems and even the function of pastor that encourages problems. The rest, not worth it anymore. At least the pastor gets paid while being abused by the payers.

I suspect we will be hearing more pastor as victim stories as this latest movement winds down and the euphoria of the true Gospel ( whatever that is) wanes. If they would just grow mega churches they could better insulate themselves.

Did you know there is no clergy/laity distinction in the NT? If believers, we are all ministers, including women!

@ elastigirl:

You are right. It gets ugly. There is nothing worse than any victim not being believed. In the case of churches this gets so tricky especially if you are someone who thinks the truth is important. What can a church do to get to the truth? I have amused myself in the past with this exercise. They could hire an investigative independent counsel to interview everyone. Nah. Won’t work in a mega church and small churches can’t afford it. . Or they could bring in a panel of pastors to exonerate the one who is in the hot seat. Oops. We have seen how that one works. Sigh.

My only advice is to put on extra armour if you go to church. While many churches promote doctrinal truth as all important, they don’t tend to do the same with behavioral truth for some reason.

@ brian:
brian, the work you do is a great thing. Very few people have the strength and convictions to do what you do. God sees the personal sacrifices you make to help the disadvantaged. I get this feeling that your mom was proud of you.

@ Ken F:

I know that some churches do treat preachers horribly. One preacher was driven out in a nasty way at one church I went to as a kid, and it really bugged my mom.

This blog mainly focuses on the sheep (the rank and file church members), though, and discusses those in power (preachers, elders) who abuse the sheep because they are power hungry and obsessed with authority.

This blog also has done educational posts about how some preachers and church boards are using membership agreements to boss members around – they are legally binding documents that churches can use to beat people into submission with.

I’m not aware of church laity doing that to preachers, or having the sort of power in the first place. The balance of power in most churches seems tipped in favor of the church staff / preacher.

Churches run themselves these days as though they are businesses, with the preacher being the Head Boss, and the pew potatoes being viewed as interchangeable widgets only good for coughing up money to pay for the preacher’s new cars.

The power dynamics seem to be in favor of the preachers.

Lydia wrote:

You are right. It gets ugly. There is nothing worse than any victim not being believed. In the case of churches this gets so tricky especially if you are someone who thinks the truth is important. What can a church do to get to the truth?

One thing that has always puzzled me about supporters of abusive or just plain bad pastors is they often use the argument of forgiveness equaling letting them back into ministry and places of authority. “Well, if you’re really a Christian, then you’d forgive him and let him continue to be the pastor.”

This argument really frustrates me because forgiveness doesn’t have to mean allowing them back into ministry. I see this most vividly in the cases of sexual abuse, but it’s true of any type of abuse. You wouldn’t get to keep a job you were really bad at unless your boss was an idiot. The Bible even says that the good servant is trusted with much, but if you can’t be trusted, you won’t be (Matt. 25).

There’s a pastor I have had as a professor who has repeatedly fallen into a specific type of sin, and churches keep putting him back into ministry. I’ve known him for years and years, and he seriously messes up every 5-10 years or so. Within months, somebody has put him back into ministry, and usually with this argument. He could go
do some other job which takes him out of ministry, and with counseling, would likely not fall into the same sin. But they put him back in, he causes all sorts of problems, he gets moved to a different church, and it happens again.

Now everybody struggles with issues and sin, even pastors, but sins that seriously hurt the Body of Christ should be grounds for not being in ministry anymore. It doesn’t mean you are a bad person, it just means that you need to do something else that is going to protect you, your family, and the church.

Daisy wrote:

I had a horrible boss at one job who managed to be catty and civil to me in front of witnesses, but anytime the office was empty with just her and me (we both would get there really early), she felt safe raising her voice and screaming at me and being insulting.
Ditto on my sister – only abuses me in private, when there are no eye witnesses.

What about the mean girls you knew in school? If they were anything like the ones I knew, they would be sweet as pie around guys, but the minute it was just girls, they were nasty as all get out. Most of the guys had no idea they were constantly being manipulated by girls like this.

I’ve met a few mean girls in church who were constantly manipulating everyone around them. I’ve seen a few really do horrible things to church members who had no idea who was really the person who put them on the chopping block.

@ Daisy

They go to conference after conference, read Calvinista books (rather than the Bible), read Calvinista websites like The Gospel Coalition, and hang out at Starbucks.

It must be so exhausting that they have little time for sermon prep. 🙁

ishy wrote:

This argument really frustrates me because forgiveness doesn’t have to mean allowing them back into ministry. I see this most vividly in the cases of sexual abuse, but it’s true of any type of abuse

Very true. A lot of Christians wrongly confuse forgiving someone with giving them a second chance and/or trusting them again.

Forgiving someone does not mean you have to let them back into your life again, or allow them to keep taking advantage of you.

Daisy wrote:

I don’t see that amount of concern for the laity.

Can you imagine seeing an article about the pastor cutting someone’s grass for them at sBC voices?

Daisy wrote:

I used to think I could feel relatively safe, or be safe, being vulnerable to Christians (especially in church settings).

Daisy, have you ever read the stuff by Brene Brown? I saw a ted talk the other weekend and she was saying that vulnerability is an important life skill, and very brave, basically. I’m reading her book on shame right now, and then I’ll read the other one about vulnerability, because that’s actually something I’m sort of terrible at. When you talk about walking up to people at church and being vulnerable about things I am absolutely amazed because I would really never do that. I think it’s quite brave.

@ Lea:

One thing I can say about myself is that I did not lie through my teeth about liking people. My mother did bring me up to stuff any angry feelings I had down, but if I disliked people, I never recall in my whole life pretending as though I did.

From my Dad, I was taught “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.”

So, if I disliked a person, I would not be nasty and mean to them. I would try to keep any contact with them polite. I would not be overly friendly nor would I be mean and rude.

My sister told me many times before I wear my heart on my sleeve – I am easy to read in person. I am horrible, I guess, at hiding my true emotions about a person or thing. So, I couldn’t hide my dislike if I tried.

About that boss I had who harassed me: I did my best to hide my dislike of her, and I tried to be polite to her and around her, but I think I never the less gave off a “vibe” around her that she picked up, that I didn’t like her. I did try to hide it. Ah well.

Lea wrote:

Daisy, have you ever read the stuff by Brene Brown? I saw a ted talk the other weekend and she was saying that vulnerability is an important life skill, and very brave, basically.

No, I’ve not heard of her before. I’ll look her up online later and see if she has any articles I can read, or any videos to watch.

The weird thing is that I was brought up in this family where I was taught it’s shameful to be flawed, to make mistakes, or to speak of any negative emotions you’re having.

I was raised by some of my family to think it’s shameful to be vulnerable with other people. My sister has flat out warned me against being that way.

Except for my mother – she was okay with me confiding in her about stuff.

My mom never once shamed me or made me feel bad if I came to her crying, afraid, depressed, etc. But the rest of my family, my father and older sister especially, think it’s shameful or wrong to admit your weaknesses to other people.

My mother was my confidant when she was alive. Ever since she’s died, I’ve found it’s safer to be guarded and less vulnerable around people in real life.

It’s made me sad to see I cannot even count on or trust church-going, self-professing Christians I know in real life (this includes extended family of mine).

I’ve been very transparent and vulnerable with Christians, only to have them turn around and throw it in my face, criticize me, etc.

I don’t really see what is shameful about admitting to other people you are going through a rough patch in life, feeling sad, having anxiety, etc., so I find it very confusing and strange that so many other adults -DO- find that stuff disgraceful or embarrassing.

Someone else on this blog suggested I get a copy of the book “Tired of Trying to Measure Up” and read that, which I did. Parts of that book describe my family and up-bringing very accurately.

Everyone is insecure at times, or experiences fear, sadness, doubt, loneliness -whatever, so I cannot figure out why I should be afraid or ashamed to admit experiencing these things myself to another human being.

But I have been met with adults trying to shut me down when I go to them with this stuff, when I tell them I need a buddy to talk to.

And I try not to be too clingy or needy about it. I don’t phone the same people 20 times a day and bug them. I don’t understand people.

I don’t get Christians who keep saying on Christian TV shows they want more Christians to be transparent at church, be vulnerable, to let their mask down, stop being fake stop, stop pretending with other believers.

I tried that, I tried being “real” and transparent with other Christians, and all it got me was stomped on, judged, or callously dismissed.
It’s definitely a fine line you have to walk, knowing when and if and who you can be vulnerable with and when and who not to.

Daisy wrote:

Lea wrote:

Can you imagine seeing an article about the pastor cutting someone’s grass for them at sBC voices?

That’s not a site I visit often, but from what I’ve heard of them from others, no, I can’t picture anyone there suggesting that preachers mow the lawns of the pew potatoes. 🙂

sbc Voices posters seem to mostly be sbc pastors who IMO have bought hook line and sinker that they are the authority in their churches. I guess they do not feel the need to be involved in the every day reality their people live in.

For = from in the above posts–need a bigger keyboard.

@ Daisy:

I can’t recommend the books yet, because I haven’t read them (the ones I bought are ‘daring greatly’ and her older one ‘I thought it was just me’ – she has others). I did watch a couple ted talks. Just look for brene brown and vulnerability and it will get you to them. She does have some oprah interviews where she talks about people you should not share with. I am lucky to have a family member who is like a sister that I can open up to (I don’t’ have a sister).

Lydia wrote:

The irony is they thought it would make them look like progressives or something. That is how much of a bubble they live in.

Heck, based on the ending to this story, even Sir Arthur Conan Doyle might have been more progressive than this bunch. And he lived over a hundred years ago!

https://sherlock-holm.es/stories/pdf/a4/1-sided/yell.pdf

The rebranding is not going well…..

Should that be The Rebranding™? Kinda like The Resurgence™, I figure…

Daisy wrote:

Ditto on my sister – only abuses me in private, when there are no eye witnesses.

One thing the book “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” verified for me is that most verbal abusers will not abuse you in front of others – they will only do so if nobody else is in ear shot. That is true of my sister, and the boss I had.

Ditto on my Sweet Little Angel of a brother while we were growing up.

Double ditto if the abuser manipulates you into overreacting and grooms others into sympathy, making YOU the Dangerous Crazy Kid and him the Poor Poor Victim.

Lydia wrote:

No one could conceive the cool nice guys on stage were tyrants and deceivers behind stage. So, it was set in stone that no one would believe any story of abuse of power. ‘They would never do that and people who just don’t like them for no good reason are just so mean’.

“Go ahead and squeal, Tattle-Tale. Nobody will EVER believe you. You’re just the Crazy Kid and I’m the Sweet Little Angel.”

Flathead wrote:

The only step beyond this is live-streaming the Head Pastor’s weekly sermons to eight other “campuses” so a whole bunch of warehoused peeps can sit even more passively in order to receive a quick motivational talk with vaguely Christian overtones.

i.e. Big Brother’s face on all the Telescreens.

Bridget wrote:

Lea wrote:

When you talk about walking up to people at church and being vulnerable about things I am absolutely amazed because I would really never do that. I think it’s quite brave.

Do people think that being vulnerable is some kind of prerequisite in Christian community? I might eventually be vulnerable with a few people that I had come to trust and had built a relationship with, but who says we have to be vulnerable with anyone and everyone just because they say they are Christian? I don’t think that is healthy or wise.

I don’t. That’s not what I meant to say at all, I’ve just been thinking about the topic in my own life – not having to do with church. I think there is some sort of continuum and I need to move a little closer to the vulnerable side.

Leslie wrote:

I have loads of back stories I could share. But I won’t because there are too many innocent people who have been terribly hurt who would be more hurt if I shared.

Me, too. There is the possibility of retaliation and guilt-by-association. And in other cases, there are good people who decided to stay in some churches we have left, and they are doing good work in a place we could not be a part of. There are lots of reasons for anonymity and not naming names of private individuals and cloaking certain details.

Bridget wrote:

Lea wrote:
When you talk about walking up to people at church and being vulnerable about things I am absolutely amazed because I would really never do that. I think it’s quite brave.
Do people think that being vulnerable is some kind of prerequisite in Christian community? I might eventually be vulnerable with a few people that I had come to trust and had built a relationship with, but who says we have to be vulnerable with anyone and everyone just because they say they are Christian? I don’t think that is healthy or wise.

Sadly, too many churches have made it a prerequisite to be accepted. We hear a lot of talk about broken people, we are all perpetual sinners and we need to share with the group. After all, everyone has something, right. At the same time, our society mirrors this focus in other ways. People are not private. Everyone is offended so when there is a serious offense it gets lumped in and we are desensitized.

This why I was so proud of my friends teen who refused to participate in the “confession circle” at church camp. He was shamed by the leaders, too.

@ Serving Kids In Japan:

Lol!

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Or, my favorite: you are emotionally unstable …….said with feigned concern. (Gas lighting)

@ Patti:

Me too!

@ Flathead:
Loved your comment!

Lydia wrote:

I am sure it happens but I am still amazed to hear of pew sitters who recognize they have any kind of power at all.

Sometimes there is a ‘good old boy network’ of abusive elders who have the church in their pocket.

Lydia wrote:

Or, my favorite: you are emotionally unstable …….said with feigned concern. (Gas lighting)

I got the “You’ve been hurt” line. Passive voice putting the responsibility on the person who has been hurt rather than the perp’s actions. They can try to evade an responsibility for promoting a system which encourages the perp to offend.

@ Velour:

Yes, I read those. I’m speaking about what seemed to me to be demanding that she divulge where she lived as well as someone’s identity, and being critical of her when she did not give in to your demands. it was very antagonizing. there are good reasons not to divulge either.

Gram3 wrote:

Lydia wrote:
Or, my favorite: you are emotionally unstable …….said with feigned concern. (Gas lighting)
I got the “You’ve been hurt” line. Passive voice putting the responsibility on the person who has been hurt rather than the perp’s actions. They can try to evade an responsibility for promoting a system which encourages the perp to offend.

I avoid the “hurt feelings” descriptor now. I have chosen “disgust”, instead. :o)

siteseer wrote:

On another note, wouldn’t it be a hoot if it turned out women were writing sermons for patriarchalists? lol

KARMA 🙂
God would smile!

Lydia wrote:

I don’t see anything wrong with using research assistants. But it is not like most pastors are working Second Temple Judaism into their sermons or contrasting atonement theories. Sadly.

I had a couple of excellent pastors early in my Christian life but in the many years since then, the average church sermon I have sat through has been more like a children’s Sunday School class. It’s like being in a class where no one can go faster or further than the most unmotivated, uninterested, simple-minded member of the group. Some of these churches have had the same membership for many years, too, and still have never progressed beyond the thinnest milk.

Flathead wrote:

I see this pre-packaged sermon thing as just a logical culmination of a long tradition of bad practice where congregations go to a weird building called a church and all sit passively in pews facing a stage so professional Christians and experts can perform something called “ministry”.

I’ve been thinking about this sort of thing. Christianity began around a table, with food and conversation. This continued through the early centuries, until the Romans moved the table to the front, elevated it like an altar, and sat everyone in rows. The meal became a play, a performance. Participants became spectators. The reformation replaced the altar with a pulpit, with a small table in front of it. And now we’ve replaced all of it with a stage and lights and screens and speakers. And then everyone listens quietly, while that one special pastor talks.

And I agree with Leslie. While some of the mega-pastors enjoy the perks and the limelight and a paid staff to research their sermons, the majority of pastors work really hard, and don’t get paid much. And if you look at the surveys, most are terribly unhappy. 9 out of 10 will bail and do something else before retirement. As many as half would do something else if they could.

Personally, I think we have created this job description of “Pastor as CEO of a 501c3 charitable/entertainment organization.” And it’s often toxic. Some leaders thrive [like the Briscoes and the Burlesons], and others build their own kingdoms. But many “shepherds” end up a victim of the same system that fleeces the sheep.

GSD wrote:

I’ve been thinking about this sort of thing. Christianity began around a table, with food and conversation.

This is why I think church is really supposed to be all about potluck 🙂

@ Flathead:
@ GSD:

Yes, yes, yes! oh, man, I am so totally in agreement with both of you.

@ siteseer:

Yes! The seeker sermons were the worst. Jesus is your boyfriend and wants you to pony up.

My last SBC church, before the troubles, had a congenial Hebrew Scholar who knew how to bring it to the kitchen table. What a gift! I could listen to him on just the Psalms all day. But he was older and was more about teaching/sharing than gathering a following or indoctrination. He often presented contrasting interpretations.

Now the Neo Cals want you crying and beating yourself up all the time after their Piper sermon.

Lea wrote:

This is why I think church is really supposed to be all about potluck

So true! The early church called them “Love Feasts.” Which probably led to some misunderstandings with their neighbors. Much of the home/organic church movement really encourages meeting around food, which can lead to some glorious meals, depending on who is there.

Brisket, anyone? [I feel like I’m getting off-topic.]

Former CLCer wrote:

As someone else commented, it could have been a good piece if it was titled something like my daughter’s relationship helped me confront my own racism.

One weird bit of subtext was that interracial marriage is fine if both people are Christian. What about non-Christians?

Christiane wrote:

But isn’t seminary positioned so that ‘friendly’ Churches can offer introductory practicum positions? Some time spent with a REAL pastor, shadowing him, helping, observing, hands-on experience?
Actually, in the early Church, this ‘beginner’s’ training would have been a position held by a deacon.

Southeastern was not. No practicum of any sort. It rather disappointed me. And whoever it was earlier was correct in that many just jump off straight into lead pastor positions, though often of smaller churches. A lot of small church pastors don’t have a seminary degree, so those that do are in demand.

A large number of the guys I knew at seminary believed that they would have to do nothing more than write and give the sermon every week. And this was just when the TGC group was starting to take over. They took over SEBTS my second year there.

ishy wrote:

Lydia wrote:
Abusers and their ilk play the forgiveness card because it is all they have that does not require serious hard work or loss for them.
I was thinking more about the enablers of abusers, and I think the enablers are a pretty large number in the church. I do think abusers play hard on the enablers, but I’ve found that enablers often use little logic and lots of denial.

And lots of platitudes.

@ GSD:

I can’t explain it and it sounds downright corny but to this day I get a warmth remembering those pot lucks. There was a lot of love that went into those casseroles.

Ken F wrote:

Daisy wrote:
I don’t really think this is the wisest venue to ask the participants to pity pastors who may have been hurt by church-goers.
I grew up in the United Methodist church. When I was in high school we had an outstanding pastor who was driven out by a nasty faction in the congregation. It was religion at its worst. Religious control, domination, and abuse is a sword that cuts both ways. I have never set foot in a UM church since I left high school more than 30 years ago. I am sure that good things are happening in the UM denomination, but I have too many bad memories of what happened to that good man.

As a kid I witnessed a similar situation, which I mentioned in passing on TWW a couple of months back. One person reacted just a bit strongly, and I was surprised–but I had not offered enough context.

TWW is mainly about abuse BY clergy. Unfortunately some defenders of the abusers show up here. Anyone who mentions abuse OF clergy will probably be challenged.

Some middle ground: although most church abuse descends from “leaders,” evil takeovers do sometimes originate in the pews. TWW readers will want to know this, if only because lay folk sometimes end up selecting the next preacher. The composition of the search committee matters.

Lydia wrote:

I can’t explain it and it sounds downright corny but to this day I get a warmth remembering those pot lucks. There was a lot of love that went into those casseroles.

Churches out here in the boonies still do fellowship meals. Our church does a meal quarterly, as well as a quarterly fellowship breakfast: eggs, bacon, biscuits, gravy, sausage, fried apples, grits, pancakes …….

Nancy2 wrote:

Churches out here in the boonies still do fellowship meals. Our church does a meal quarterly, as well as a quarterly fellowship breakfast: eggs, bacon, biscuits, gravy, sausage, fried apples, grits, pancakes …….

If my church did that, I’d weigh 200 kilos by now.

Friend wrote:

The composition of the search committee matters.

Our church has been looking for a new pastor since July of last year. The church is already so strict and condescending towards women that it irks me to no end. The search committee consists of 3 deacons. One man I really like. The other two, whoa boys! They both have problems with women drivers – damages their fragile little egos to see a woman driving when there is a licensed male available. And, one of them went on a “Jezebel rant” in SS. I haven’t been back to that SS class since then.
Their attitudes towards females really makes me wonder what they are looking for in a pastor. They’ve supposedly been looking for over a year, and not a single trial sermon, yet!

siteseer wrote:

I have noticed a big push toward that lately, in the “Authentic Manhood” series, for instance. I believe it is to get people to spill their secrets and innermost struggles with sins, in order to hook them in- once you give others ammunition to use against you, it can be very hard to leave or call them out for anything.

JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY AUDITING RECORDS!

Nancy2 wrote:

They both have problems with women drivers – damages their fragile little egos to see a woman driving when there is a licensed male available.

What century are these people living in? I live deep in the bible belt and all this stuff sounds crazy. Would have been considered crazy 30 years ago.

I keep wondering…what changed. Did these men just freak out SO MUCH at the cultural that they are trying to pull things all the way back to the dark ages? I mean. Honestly.

Lea wrote:

What century are these people living in? I live deep in the bible belt and all this stuff sounds crazy. Would have been considered crazy 30 years ago.

I think the Commonwealth of Kentucky is a special case, especially the western and eastern ends. Things… change… very… slowly. Especially attitudes. Which is both good and bad.

Now the Golden Triangle of Central KY, which is Lexington, Louisville, Frankfort… That’s pretty much another state. And we all know about Louisville, don’t we?

@ Deb:
Hi. TGC was formally launched in 2007 but there had been informal discussions from 2004.

http://twincities.thegospelcoalition.org/what-is-the-gospel-coalition

It’s interesting to note from this other account that Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Ligon Duncan and Phil Ryken were at the “restricted meeting.”

“The Coalition itself was primarily the brainchild of Keller, pastor of the well-known Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City, and theologian Carson. Prior to its organization, both men expressed their desire to rekindle Evangelical churches in the tradition of the New Evangelicalism of Post-World War II America.[2] These two men along with Piper, Philip Ryken (who at that time was still the Senior Minister of the Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, formerly pastored by the late Dr. James M. Boice), Driscoll, and the well-known PCA pastor Dr. Ligon Duncan (now Chancellor at Reformed Theological Seminary) joined forces to explore the establishment of a new Evangelical network. In 2005, these men met with other prominent Evangelical leaders to gauge their acceptance of this new proposal.[3] Those who attended readily accepted the idea, and in 2006, they met again to finalize the drafts of the TGC’s Confessional Statement and Theological Vision for Ministry.”

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=295

GSD wrote:

Brisket, anyone? [I feel like I’m getting off-topic.]

The last time we got off topic in this way, after much back and forth of (very OT) posts, we ended up group-designing a pretty fantastic BBQ menu. But it always seems to start with the brisket 😉

@ Lydia:

Being open and vulnerable with people wouldn’t bother me if not for the fact that so many people I’ve run across (including Christians) view your sharing personal stuff with them as their grounds or opening to start criticizing you, victim blaming you, telling you where they think you are going wrong in life, offering unsolicited advice…

-When I was opening up to get support or encouragement.
I don’t need the advice, judgement, shaming, or criticism. But people loooove to give it. Even churchy people.

@ Lea:

That seems familiar. I may have read a transcript or article with similar content awhile back.

I have to have a sense a person is trustworthy before I open up to them. But I guess I have mis-judged a few people in my time.

Or, I ASSUMED that because the people I was talking to were family, or a Christian, that they would follow the Bible on the “weep with those who weep” instruction, but their Bible must say something like, “Judge and criticize those who weep.”

I really do not think there should be a sense of shame or stigma in admitting to other people if you are experiencing a set back in life, or suffering with some sort of trial or negative set of emotions.

From time to time, I’ve dealt with fear, panic attacks, I used to have clinical depression, loneliness, insecurity, and on and on.

That stuff is common to the human condition. Everyone goes through it at one time or another, I guess I’m just more willing to admit to it. I don’t know why others are so reluctant to confide about it to someone (well, it should be someone you can trust, of course).

Lea wrote:

Dear Pastor so and so. I honestly do not want to hear cutesy stories about your wife, kids, golf game at church.

That is 99% of Steven Furtick’s sermons.

Daisy wrote:

I always thought you could go to your family, if anyone, but I was wrong. Oh so wrong.

Sorry to hear that, Daisy.

Daisy wrote:

I really do not think there should be a sense of shame or stigma in admitting to other people if you are experiencing a set back in life, or suffering with some sort of trial or negative set of emotions.

I don’t think they should, but some people are very uncomfortable with these things – hearing them or sharing them.

Nancy2 wrote:

I haven’t been back to that SS class since then.
Their attitudes towards females really makes me wonder what they are looking for in a pastor.

Their dream pastor: a Franksteinish creation mash of Mark Driscoll rolled into Doug Wilson with a dash of John Piper and some Owen Strachan icing on top.

ishy wrote:

A large number of the guys I knew at seminary believed that they would have to do nothing more than write and give the sermon every week. And this was just when the TGC group was starting to take over. They took over SEBTS my second year there.

Then the seminary failed these young men. And it failed the Southern Baptist denomination and the whole Church. I would expect ANY denomination to try to give it’s young students the very best training for what is considered a ‘calling’ from God.
Why were these young people failed in this way???
What was the thinking and who was behind it???

Lydia wrote:

a congenial Hebrew Scholar who knew how to bring it to the kitchen table. What a gift! I could listen to him on just the Psalms all day. But he was older and was more about teaching/sharing than gathering a following or indoctrination. He often presented contrasting interpretations.

Christiane wrote:

Lydia wrote:

a congenial Hebrew Scholar who knew how to bring it to the kitchen table. What a gift! I could listen to him on just the Psalms all day. But he was older and was more about teaching/sharing than gathering a following or indoctrination. He often presented contrasting interpretations.

I lost my answer when it printed, I’ll try again.
This presenting of opposite viewpoints in a religious discussion so that the participants can defend their points of view is classic Judaic scholarly practice. What eventually happens is that
someone observing the give and take will offer a position that reconciles both opposing viewpoints, and will do this rather brilliantly, drawing a circle that is larger around the whole discussion. If anyone wants to know more about how this process works, the books of Chaim Potok who wrote ‘The Chosen’ do illustrate some good examples.

Friend wrote:

TWW is mainly about abuse BY clergy. Unfortunately some defenders of the abusers show up here. Anyone who mentions abuse OF clergy will probably be challenged.

That’s an interesting observation. It could almost give the impression that abuse OF pastors is more acceptable than abuse BY pastors, but I don’t think that is what you mean. It’s deplorable either way. Perhaps more should be done to focus on the enablers of abuse. Some people like to work behind the scenes as the gray eminence. This is truly evil – hiding behind others while pulling all the strings. I have a hard time believing that these abusive churches are the way they are solely because of the pastors and elders. There has to be a sizeable mass of regular members supporting the dysfunction.

Thanks elastigirl for your kind words to me!❤️

Max wrote:

Sermons are intended to present absolute Truth, inspired by a Holy God to convict us and change us into Christlikeness.

Southern Baptist evangelist Vance Havner used to say that church folks should leave the Sunday morning service glad, sad, or mad after hearing the sermon, but they didn’t need to leave unchanged.

Daisy wrote:

Being open and vulnerable with people wouldn’t bother me if not for the fact that so many people I’ve run across (including Christians) view your sharing personal stuff with them as their grounds or opening to start criticizing you, victim blaming you, telling you where they think you are going wrong in life, offering unsolicited advice…

-When I was opening up to get support or encouragement.
I don’t need the advice, judgement, shaming, or criticism. But people loooove to give it. Even churchy people.

I think a lot of Christians almost feel like God holds them accountable to have all the answers. It leads to some awful answers. I know I cringe when I think back on stuff I said. Ugh.

Joe wrote:

I’ve hired the Docent Group to post my replies on this blog. I hope that’s okay…..

We’ll know them by their length, appropriate personal experience quotes, and scholarly references. Hopefully they’ll also have 3 points and a poem. 😉

PaJo wrote:

I frankly appreciate the 5-10 minute homily that is a reflection on a scripture assigned from a lectionery, something available to anyone, and in use by mainline Protestant churches, EO and RC churches for a very long time. Any pastor following Christ can reflect for a few minutes on an assigned scripture, and even if it isn’t ovation-generating, the faithful can have something to ponder.

Our ‘sermons’ are relatively short at Church and are mostly centered on the Scriptures which have already been read aloud, often from the Holy Gospels. When the sermon gives reference to the ‘reading’ we have stood up for to listen and to affirm after it was read aloud, we know what the reference connection is and that the sermon takes its tone from the reading. Other parish information may be relayed during the sermons, and requests made, but the sermons pretty much are centered on sacred Scripture, yes.

This is a traditional pattern coming down from the time of the early Church which began with the ‘Service of the Word’, at which all were permitted to attend. Following the Service of the Word, in the early Church, the catechumens were dismissed, and the next portion of the service was a celebration of the Eucharist.

After Easter, the catechumens were baptized and permitted to take communion at the Eucharistic service as well as attend the Service of the Word, and they were received fully into the community of faith.

@ siteseer:
More like, let’s build an Uber movement with millions of followers to pay us to write books and speak on stages.

The problem with saying that there’s pastor abuse as well as parishioner abuse is the way “pastor” is typically defined in church: as a CEO, professional leader in the spotlight upon a stage each week preaching at other believers as well as supervising the spiritual direction of the fellowship (because hey, they’re the anointed of God,they’re pros at this, they’re the ones who like to reference their “calling”).

When you define it that way, I’m quite glad that pastors are deposed, attacked, etc. because even if they’re just the kindest, most humble fellow around and the ones leading the coup are rotten to the core, the latter group is quite right to seek to rid the church of the former, because the pastor position as we define it tends to reduce the Body of Christ to a loud mouth and several fat buttocks in the pews, it is anathema to the New Testament.

So while some pastors may be treated very poorly by some very bad actors with bad intentions, if the pastors are serving in that CEO role, they don’t belong there in the first place and I’m glad they’re out.

Law Prof wrote:

So while some pastors may be treated very poorly by some very bad actors with bad intentions, if the pastors are serving in that CEO role, they don’t belong there in the first place and I’m glad they’re out.

I think each case is different. The CEO model is very bad and should be challenged at every opportunity. But not all pastors view themselves as CEOs. These are the ones I am thinking about. They get thrown to the curb just like the 1000 missionaries discussed in earlier threads. I’m reluctant to categorize all pastors as abusers even though many are.

I still wonder why the masses tolerate the abuse. I don’t think it would take many in a congregation to speak up. But maybe the people who see the problems are too kind and gracious to do anything. Even though such intentions might feel noble, the silence condones abuse.

Ken F wrote:

It could almost give the impression that abuse OF pastors is more acceptable than abuse BY pastors, but I don’t think that is what you mean. It’s deplorable either way. Perhaps more should be done to focus on the enablers of abuse.

Abuse is compounded when it’s delivered by the all-powerful leaders. To me the real evil is whatever belief animates the abuse. It can start anywhere and spread in any direction. That’s why I appreciate learning about different beliefs and practices and folkways here. People need to know their own traditions, or they cannot protect themselves.

Stan wrote:

Just like with us, he plays the “who, me?” game, and one of his bros rushed to rescue him from the bad lady.

Bros before Hos…

PaJo wrote:

I haven’t read allllll the comments, but did want to pipe up (as usual).

Sermon assistance services are really nothing new; they have been around for at least a couple of hundred years, of course, not online. Not everyone is a terrific speaker, some are not good at researching and so on…but are *wonderful* PASTORS. They care for their flock, visit the sick, show hospitality to the stranger, visit those in prison, care for those in need, find ways to help those who need work, and so on. Even if they spent 40 hours a week preparing a sermon, it would not be a good one–not their area of expertise–and that would come at the cost of a lot of the above pastor-caring.

That said, when people who self-anoint as pastors do none of the works of Christ (look in the Scriptures–that’s where most of the above list came from) and still don’t prepare a sermon…well what on earth are they doing with their time?

I frankly appreciate the 5-10 minute homily that is a reflection on a scripture assigned from a lectionery, something available to anyone, and in use by mainline Protestant churches, EO and RC churches for a very long time. Any pastor following Christ can reflect for a few minutes on an assigned scripture, and even if it isn’t ovation-generating, the faithful can have something to ponder.

Maybe, in the case of these devoted pastors of few words, their shepherding IS their ‘sermon’, and a more powerful sermon they could never give from any pulpit.
The ‘I can’t be bothered’ group may speak for an hour, and be very entertaining, but if they are not tending their flocks in the field, then they have no right to the title of ‘pastor’, no. What are they, then, these men? I don’t know. I wonder if they know.

@ Bridget:

The guy who carried on the argument’s blurb on his Twitter profile: “Pursue obscurity”.

Pruitt shrieking about slander on TWW a few months back on this website was truly a poor showing. I hope him and his associates have learned something about disagreeing with the gospel™-centered crew.

This might be a bit off topic but I found this very interesting and I am happy for Mr. Phelps that it helped him so much, he is a real encouragement to me.

http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/did-olympic-swimmer-michael-phelps-give-his-life-to-christ.html

The question was quite telling in my early Christian experience did they really give their life to Jesus or some rendition of that sentiment? I struggled with it because I was always convinced usually after getting rebuked for being human or not having a correct nuance of scripture from one of the leaders or most of all I was too weak for showing to much sympathy for the “God haters.” It really makes it hard to find peace when you are looking over your shoulder waiting for God to take you out. Yes more live like that then many will admit I know I did, still do, at times. It’s scary and it scares a real clear view of a loving Father found in the embodiment of Jesus of Nazareth. One line stood out.

“It was then that his NFL friend Ray Lewis, an outspoken Christian, stepped in.”

After getting “saved” and say maybe six months after that it was acceptable for such nonsense but after that you dont do it, you never cross that line. Outside of apologetic reasons IE if it makes the faith look good, raise money, gets new recruits etc. One does not commit that sin of fellowship. Needing. When I read this line it was like me and him live in two different universes, that is just not an option in the real world from the local institutional church unless there is some utilitarian purpose for it. Again I am not the only one that has experienced this. It is partially or even mostly my fault, though some did directly accuse me of needing to much help, asking for too much prayer, wanting to be a man pleaser, seeking attention, being a disruptor of the brethren, sowing discord etc.I dont think this malicious I think it typically American, rugged individualism, pull yourself up by your bootstraps etc. Get saved then leave God alone kind of mentality. I now know this to be wrong and I used it to not get involved because it gives me a way to avoid the risk of human contact but these blogs and the folks I work with are making me see the log in my vision if that makes sense. I know I can be part of a good fellowship and I am not God’s enemy.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/08/10/michael-phelps-says-rick-warrens-purpose-driven-life-saved-him-from-suicide.html

I am glad he did not take that road, I still think of Braxton, 15 I think it was, two years ago this month. My parents lost a child at 17 and it did something to them, it did something to me. Such a hard thing to understand. But again I am glad Mr. Phelps was helped by RW’s book. Dee and Deb, Michael and Julie Ann and many other fine people I cannot tell you how much you have done to help so many of us. I do hope you are blessed and know your work is bearing much fruit. God give you rest Braxton until the Great Restoration of all things.

Lowlandseer wrote:

You should bear in mind that it is the MoS team who have been taking on the ESS crew with some success, not the Egals.

I’m not aware if egalitarians have tackled the subject in-depth, though I have seen a few essays by egalitarians here and there on the subject.

But secondly, and most importantly, complementarians, especially of the CBMW stripe, aren’t willing to listen to anyone outside their camp.

Complementarians won’t even consider the arguments and critiques of Complementarian Women. They ignore women most of the time and deal with comments by men.

So, why would you expect complementarians to listen to arguments of egalitarians?

Many complementarians (especially of the CBMW variety) wrongly conflate Christian egalitarianism (or Christian mutualism) with things like secular, progressive feminism, theological liberalism, or rejection of biblical inerrancy.

Complementarians don’t regard egalitarianism or mutualism to be wholly biblical propositions or genuine Christian views, so they see little to no need to deal with it and enteract with it, except to label it as “feminism,” and move along.

You said,

And the reason they are making headway is because they acknowledge that there is a God-given order of and in creation and can show that neither patriarchy nor ESS have any basis in faith or Scripture.

So, you personally believe there is supposedly a “God-given order of and in creation”?

Or are you saying since many non-comps don’t believe in that view, that a group who DOES believe that will have an easier time engaging debate with the ESS comps?

Lowlandseer wrote:

You should bear in mind that it is the MoS team who have been taking on the ESS crew with some success, not the Egals.

This is the saddest thing of all. They will not engage or they dismiss people who do not interpret scripture as they do.

@ Lowlandseer:

The argument has been done. If anyone wants to make their own call on the exchange: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/04/20/mortification-of-spin-hosts-discuss-abusive-pulpits-on-bully-pulpit-broadcast/

The post on the comically onerous membership convenontract at Brandon Smith’s church:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/04/a-tutorial-how-to-assess-the-membership-contract-at-fort-worths-cityview-church/

No, I don’t think he was literally shrieking. TWW has always had a humorous and sarcastic presentation style. I appreciate it because if I couldn’t laugh, I’d have to cry about the issues it discusses.

Pruitt could’ve come and gone with comment addressing criticisms and misunderstandings, because that’s all most of us had. Instead, he raved about the grave pain of “slander”, as if that compares to the pain of the issues discussed with Sovereign Grace Ministries. He then made across the board accusations of us not really being Christians and a passive aggressive tweet on the horror of blog comments threads. So who was really slandering?

I am very grateful for going public with their robust criticism of ESS doctrine. The posts on the Daughter of the Reformation blog are not to be missed. However, they do seem baffled at the lack of respect even esteemed conservative Presbyterian theologians receive from the gospel(TM)-centered world. I pray that Pruitt and his associates may receive new empathy for the experiences of these churches’ laymen who bring sincere and informed criticisms public.

Lydia wrote:

You know what bothers me about this the most? She does not view herself as an equal fully functioning co heir of giftings in the Body.

I feel bad for her. She’s still trapped in the complementarian bubble.

When you’re in that bubble, serious about following God and believing in the Bible, it’s very hard to view those ‘clobber verses’ about gender used by comps frequently from a non-complementarian perspective.

I hope she’s starting to see the cracks in the complementarian facade, then completely rejects all of comp.

Comp cannot be lived out consistently, and comps cannot agree on how it is to be lived out. That should be one tip-off for her (or any comp).

Even the complementarian interpretation of the Bible is not consistent (which is one of the things that started the nagging doubts about complementarianism in my mind when I was a teenager).

Complementarians will focus with laser- like intensity on the “I forbid a woman to teach” type verses, while ignoring (or downplaying) all the instances of women in the Bible who did lead and teach men (with God’s approval, too).

Daisy wrote:

Complementarians won’t even consider the arguments and critiques of Complementarian Women. They ignore women most of the time and deal with comments by men.

I want to add an exception to that!

I vaguely recall complementarian (patriarchalist?) Doug Wilson writing a blog post critiquing another post by a woman complementarian about a year ago.

Wilson did pay attention to a woman’s writing about women in he church, and to another comp, but only to mock and ridicule her post.

I think that may have been the post where Wilson caricatured women into different categories, like he was saying the woman who wrote the post must be a “small-chested biddie,” and all left wing feminists were ‘hairy hapries’ or whatever. (It’s been awhile since I read his post about that.)

So, on rare occasions, I guess you will see a male complementarian address views by a woman (and/or a non-comp), but only if it’s to stick the label “feminist” on to them, or to ridicule them.

The usual complementarian SOP is to ignore women and women’s writings, and not to seriously deal with egalitarians, unless it’s to accuse the egals of “capitulating to culture” and being “stealth feminists.”

Stan wrote:

@ Gram3:

Aimee has been fighting on Twitter with old TWW friend Brandon Smith all day. Just like with us, he plays the “who, me?” game, and one of his bros rushed to rescue him from the bad lady.

How very manly of him. Complementarianism is all about creating responsible and kind males. Uh huh.

Aimee is being heard, despite being female, and she has good arguments against these guys’ position which exposes the weakness of their supposedly unassailable doctrine. And that makes them colicky.

Lowlandseer wrote:

they acknowledge that there is a God-given order of and in creation and can show that neither patriarchy nor ESS have any basis in faith or Scripture.

And neither does the supposed significance of the order of creation of male and female. Where is any significance attributed to the temporal order of creation of the male and female? There isn’t. If 1 Timothy 2:12 is grounded in creation order (as some people believe Paul is arguing), then we should find some evidence of that in Genesis. We do not find that. That is a curious fact which is tiptoed around because “liberal” and “feminist.”

Lowlandseer wrote:

You should bear in mind that it is the MoS team who have been taking on the ESS crew with some success, not the Egals.

And I believe some Egals have brought up the ESS/Trinity issue, but again, the comps dismiss anyone not in their tribe. Honestly it is not any different amoungst Christians than the political realm . . . groups becoming polarized.

Mara wrote:

Bridget wrote:
But it is part in parcel to the conservative right’s attitude toward everything.
They vilify.

Sometimes the left does this as well.

Daisy wrote:

Sometimes the left does this as well.

Oh, they definitely do as well.
Not saying that they don’t.

Just pointing out how rampant it is in the camp that I used to be a part of and how it pertains to the argument at hand.

I think it is wise to keep in mind how propaganda works when dealing with any group trying to sway public opinion and politics. It is better to make choices based on facts than on opinions of one side or the other.

@ Mara:
Oh, the other side vilifies too. If you take away the “sides” and see people as individuals instead of groups– that other side would be left with little to “use” for vilification.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

ION: Cricket

I always enjoy your reports about cricket; my own bafflement is a big part of their appeal. It’s lovely to learn that the BBC itself is sometimes baffled by baseball. After Alex Rodriguez’s last game with the Yankees this week, he received a gift: a base that his teammates had autographed. The illustrious Beeb described it as a “signed cake.”

http://www.bbc.com/sport/baseball/37068972

Stan wrote:

@ Gram3:

Aimee has been fighting on Twitter with old TWW friend Brandon Smith all day. Just like with us, he plays the “who, me?” game, and one of his bros rushed to rescue him from the bad lady.

OK, so Brandon says Aimee has the responsibility to reach out in reconciliation to Denny Burk when Denny Burk was the one who said she was a closeted feminist because she points out the ESS heresy and the Complementarian’s abysmal behavior regarding DV? What kind of moral reasoning gets him to that conclusion?

If men in the Complementarian System are the initiators and leaders, then why is it Aimee’s responsibility to seek reconciliation with Burk who started the whole thing with Aimee? Ridiculous and transparent. And of course we have the Matthew 18 “have you reached out privately” to Burk. When Burk tweeted out to the world what he said about Aimee’s character. These men lose their ability to think when confronted by a bright, conservative woman with good arguments.

@ Lowlandseer:

Taking on ESS with success? The only thing that has happened is exactly what Pruitt did here concerning Truman and Mahaney. Rewrite history. Mohler responded to all this ESS stuff by rewriting history and as Gram pointed out he used the political success strategy of triangulation we all became acquainted with back in the 90s.

And Mohler has the gravitas to get plenty of other celebs to back him up — what came out of SBTS is under a ‘big tent of orthodoxy and they affirm Nicene’. Move on, nothing to see here.

See, the argument will evolve into who has most and the best experts and how they weighed in. It happens much like the strategy of recruiting “experts” to exonerate Mahaney. That is how the game is played. Truman played it once. And he has played it well by having his expert friend say that he was only operating with in a very narrow task he was given. See? That explanation has to suffice or we are just mean horrible people who do not know what we are talking about.

what Pruitt and Truman should be congratulating themselves on is the fact that since they are reformed, Mohler actually responded to issue instead of swatting them away like fleas.

Oh dear. What happened up there? Big apology.

Gram3 wrote:

OK, so Brandon says Aimee has the responsibility to reach out in reconciliation to Denny Burk when Denny Burk was the one who said she was a closeted feminist because she points out the ESS heresy and the Complementarian’s abysmal behavior regarding DV? What kind of moral reasoning gets him to that conclusion?
If men in the Complementarian System are the initiators and leaders, then why is it Aimee’s responsibility to seek reconciliation with Burk who started the whole thing with Aimee?

I agree with everything you said.

For anyone else who wants to read that conversation, here is where it took place (on Twitter):

https://twitter.com/aimeebyrdhwt/status/764163018632499200

For all their insistence that men act as noble servant-leaders who are gallant, and who should take charge and whatever, complementarians don’t put any of that into practice.

I didn’t see it on display from that guy (Brandon) who was talking to Aimee on Twitter. He grills her, assumes she must be at fault.

I liked her comment to him here:
“also, no not getting that—if they are really complementarian, they should be responding to women in this debate as well.”

Mmm-Hmm. She has already picked up on the fact that for all the complementarian propaganda about women being equal in worth to men (and women complement men), that in reality, they treat women as being lesser in worth.

I also notice how that Brandon guy keep hammering Aimee on the public vs. private thing in that thread. I don’t see what it matters.

Secondly, she already told the guy a time or two Burk’s comments about her and Truman were made in public.

elastigirl wrote:

@ Bridget:
i’m there now….. (virtually-speaking). but so many roads to explore — which ones??

I love driving trips!! Love to drive! How bout a Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, North and South Carolina road trip?? Smokey Mountains and Appalachians included.

I forgot to mention that Burk is on the rewriting history bandwagon as a good water carrier—except Burk just parrots what he is told so no surprise there. Burk was trying very hard to rewrite CBMW history with ESS! If you have been around these people long enough you soon realize that without screenshots from 1-5 or 10 years ago, nothing matters. So just change the conversation to “feminist liberal or slanderer”. It works.

@ Muff Potter:
I have hope. We are living in a time when Calvinist doctrine is, for the first time in its history, debated in this vast public arena by mere educated peasants. For most of its history such a thing would get you killed or imprisoned. Then the debate moved to academia where few peasants had access . Now it is in a vast Public Square. The same for patriarchy/comp doctrines.

exciting times we live in.

@ Bridget:

OK! ….let me open up another ‘web browser’ (as they say)…. double click on MAPS…. typing in …hmmmmm Shenandoah Valley for starters?…picking a road….a hop skip & a jump east, perhaps…

(i’m LONGING to take a road trip! for reals…. i want to have lunch at the Cadiz Restaurant i just passed on my virtual Kentucky tour — and all the other little places on all the little roads.)

(first day of school’s Monday… maybe on Tuesday i’ll apply for driver of the google maps street view camera car.)

Lydia wrote:

exciting times we live in.

We truly do live in exciting times. Even the lowliest among us can self-educate themselves to levels which were unheard of in times past. And not just with theological subjects, but with virtually any discipline imaginable.

@ Daisy:
I think she is trying to make comp mean what it never really meant at all. If she cannot teach men then what is her reason that Brandon should listen and take her view seriously?

I have a lot of empathy for her. I get it. I watched other professional educated women take on certain things in the soft comp world (usually encroaching rules) and it become a total disaster. Why? Because they start with the wrong premise. The professional educated soft comp woman has already agreed that she cannot be a spiritual teacher of men. Yet, they view it as her attempting to teach them another “biblical” view. Which they view as trying to lead them which we all know is verboten in that world.

What a mutualist would view as a serious disagreement to be debated in the public square, the comps view in terms of position, status and even biblical comportment.

Daisy wrote:

I hope she’s starting to see the cracks in the complementarian facade, then completely rejects all of comp.

That would be easier for her if she were coming from a baptistic or free church POV. She is Presbyterian which is Covenantal and sees relationships within that framework. The PCA/OPC have explicit hierarchies, so the notion of hierarchy within the church is natural and unquestioned among the P&R. Also the notion of a head of household is assumed, and that is part of the basis for infant or Covenantal baptism. The dissonance is somewhat analogous to the dissonance the baptistic types express at TWW at 9Marks’ ecclesiology.

However difficult it is to overcome assumptions and to test presuppositions, it is possible that her experience of confronting ESS and the reactions to her by the males promoting it as well as some males who are non-CBMW comps may prod her to look more closely at the clobber verses and the logical and hermeneutical inconsistency of the “plain reading” school of thought.

Regardless of where she ends up, what she and others like her have done on this issue is courageous and praiseworthy. The people who dismiss her because she is female only reveal what shrunken human beings they are.

mot wrote:

Lydia wrote:
So just change the conversation to “feminist liberal or slanderer”. It works.
Sadly it does work. i wish I had the answer.

Truth. They use deflections to make people defensive. It’s really better not to talk to them at all because they are not going to change their minds. their positions are an agenda.

It is much better to take the issues to the peasants And to debate them there. Like here. The leaders become very nervous when they have no influence. They always resort to ad hominem or straw men when they engage. They tell us who they really are.

Personally I think it is better to be an opinionated peasant than an influential spiritual leader with a personal agenda. I think the latter will experience some uncomfortable challenges one day. Jesus Christ reserved most of His anger for the influential religious leaders of His Tribe.

Lydia wrote:

Personally I think it is better to be an opinionated peasant than an influential spiritual leader with a personal agenda. I think the latter will experience some uncomfortable challenges one day. Jesus Christ reserved most of His anger for the influential religious leaders of His Tribe.

These guys will pay a big price one day. They prove daily they are not concerned about the reality of the Scriptures.

@ Bridget:
Amen!

elastigirl wrote:

if i were to explore your area on google earth, what roads would i take? (but you don’t have to answer)

Highway 181 cuts the county in half running N/S. Highway 68/80 cuts the county in half running E/W. The county seat is Elkton, if you want to google it. The south end of the county is flat, while the north end is hilly. I live in the north end of the county, not far from the bustling metropolis of Clifty (wry smile, here!). Google Fairview (right at the Christian county line) and you’ll find the Jefferson Davis monument. Robert Penn Warren was born in Guthrie, near the Tennessee state line.

@ Nancy2:
PS – take 68/80 eastbound out of Elkton and you’ll find Daysville, on the Logan county line. There used to be a place there called Libby’s – a combo steakhouse/live music venue. Aaron Tippen (from Logan county) used to play there before he hit it big.

Gram3 wrote:

Regardless of where she ends up, what she and others like her have done on this issue is courageous and praiseworthy. The people who dismiss her because she is female only reveal what shrunken human beings they are.

Will Aimee and women like her ever wake up and realize that they really DO NOT matter in the comp world? How long before they realize that they only exist to serve and support the men who rule over them. No one of importance ( external plumbing ) cares what women think, feel, or say.

Lydia wrote:

I have a lot of empathy for her. I get it. I watched other professional educated women take on certain things in the soft comp world (usually encroaching rules) and it become a total disaster. Why? Because they start with the wrong premise.

The professional educated soft comp woman has already agreed that she cannot be a spiritual teacher of men.

Yet, they view it as her attempting to teach them another “biblical” view. Which they view as trying to lead them which we all know is verboten in that world.

That could be it.

I wonder too if other things come into play.

Complementarians cannot agree with each other on when, where, and/or how women may teach men.

Some of them are okay with women teaching and writing on the internet, some are not.

Some say women cannot lead or teach in a church during a church service, but are okay with women leading and teaching men in public secular political contexts.

Other than Grudem, complementarian Mark Kassian also recently came up with a list of times and places when she feels women can lead and teach men and when they cannot or should not (I linked to it in a post in TWW a few days ago). (And yes, I found her list pretty ridiculous.)

Aimee Byrd and the Truman types seem to think the only things off limits to women are
1. preaching positions in churches and
2. women holding tie-breaking power on big decisions in marriages, but they seem to feel women should hold equal sway in other avenues.

I think some (most?) of the complementarians Byrd is trying to take to task don’t think a woman should so much as Tweet a differing opinion to a man on Twitter. So, she does face an uphill battle there.

If like me at one time (I wanted to believe the best about people), she probably really and truly believes that most complementarian men do deeply respect women, women’s voices, and opinions – but they do not. They will pay lip service to respecting and listening to women, but they don’t care.

I think she’s learning the hard way that a lot of these comp guys are very prejudiced against women, and view women as lesser.

Lydia wrote:

But Owen landed well at Mid Western. He is not hurting financially or anything like that. They just needed his sanctified testosterone and soap bubble submission to go away. Not to mention he is a reminder of Bruce Ware to many people. They were counting on Burks typical irenic disposition. Burk is much more the “good old boy”.

Maybe I’m wrong about this, or will be, but…

How is dumping Owen for Burk going to really change things at CBMW?

I predict that CMBW will continue to publish outlandish, bizarre, weird essays about women, men, and marriage in the years to come, even under Burk.

Unless Burk was hired specifically to vet and proof read each and every article before it gets published on CBMW’s site?

Is Burk supposed to make sure that no more “soap bubble” or “women will be subordinate to men even in the afterlife” essays appear on CBMW’s site?

If Burk was hired only to wash away the smell of Owen, that’s not going to help them going on in the future, if they are just going to continue publishing more stuff on the level of Sudsy Soapy Glasses.

But I do take it that CBMW under Burk will no longer publish pro-ESS content?

@ Daisy:
Its about optics. In the course of your life how many times have you heard one group say things will be fine now that that is his person is in power but the other guy isn’t anymore.

This is an internecine war. That is why it is so confusing to so many.

Nancy2 wrote:

Will Aimee and women like her ever wake up and realize that they really DO NOT matter in the comp world?

I think Aimee realizes that about some men like the CBMW ones, based on what she has written. However, I imagine that Aimee also has a great husband who does not lord it over her, and she probably also has a great pastor who does not lord it over the church members. So that insulates her somewhat from the broader issue of whether females are subordinate to males in the home and church. However, I may be projecting my own past thinking (or non-thinking!) onto her. It was not easy for me to change the basic way I thought about the clobber verses. Or even to begin to think about the possibility that my understanding was not correct.

Daisy wrote:

Complementarians cannot agree with each other on when, where, and/or how women may teach men.

The question in the P&R churches is determined by which positions are ordained ones. That is why there are no ordained deacons in the PCA, for example, though many PCA churches have women who function exactly like the ordained male deacons. Ordination confers spiritual authority, and the plain reading of the clobber verses excludes women from positions which exercise spiritual authority. Tim Keller and those he influences have been pushing this envelope a very long time. That, IMO, is why the study committee for the PCA will be considering the meaning of ordination itself.

@ Gram3:
Personally, I think the big changes are going to come from outside the institutions instead of trying to change institutions.

Their biggest problem is that women have money and they make up over half the population. :o)

Law Prof wrote:

So while some pastors may be treated very poorly by some very bad actors with bad intentions, if the pastors are serving in that CEO role, they don’t belong there in the first place and I’m glad they’re out.

Such a thought-provoking reaction, thanks. The case I experienced as a kid predates the current CEO/celebrity model. The preacher in question was the successor after the sudden resignation of a very popular man. The congregation was upset at the sudden resignation and basically took out their anger on the successor. A few exceedingly mean people, claiming God was instructing them, made the new pastor’s life miserable.

Their abuse of the preacher directly affected everyone. At coffee hour when I was a young teen, they confronted me and laid out their case against a preacher I dearly loved, who was counseling me through a horrible time. This schismatic group insisted that everyone choose sides.

The preacher stuck it out for several years but eventually left. The whole experience caused great harm to the members of the church. I am frankly still scarred. I get very protective of new clergy and seminarians, and have a lot of trouble coping with disagreement in the church. (It’s my job to handle my reactions, I know.)

That church had a lot of trouble finding a new pastor. In this way, too, the congregation was harmed.

I still say that top-down abuse is worse because of the power dynamics–but evil that starts in the pews can do great damage too.

@ Patti:
Thanks! I had no idea it was there!

@ Lydia:

“Burk is on the rewriting history bandwagon as a good water carrier—except Burk just parrots what he is told so no surprise there. Burk was trying very hard to rewrite CBMW history with ESS!”
++++++++++++++++

so, now he’s rewriting CBMW history minus ESS?? he says one thing, but then when it becomes inconvenient he says the opposite?

and there are people braindead enough to buy it?

@ Lydia:

“The professional educated soft comp woman has already agreed that she cannot be a spiritual teacher of men. Yet, they view it as her attempting to teach them another “biblical” view. Which they view as trying to lead them which we all know is verboten in that world.”
+++++++++++++++

good grief, next thing you know a woman saying “hello!” will be equated with leading.

a woman: “Hello, John.”

John: shrinks back, aghast, looks as through he’s been punched, “She’s attempting to lead me! She’s attempting to lead me!”

CBMW: “Rule #84: Women must not say hello to men, lest their masculinity be compromised.”

elastigirl wrote:

and there are people braindead enough to buy it?

Unfortunately, yes.

Nancy2 wrote:

Patti wrote:

I think this is Wright’s point-by-point. I don’t have time to read it right now but I got curious Gram3 and Lydia.

“…. the suppression of women is the natural stance of heathen cultures.”
BOOM!

Yes! Yes! Cheryl Schatz’ pointed this out in depth on her women in ministry DVD.

Gram3 wrote:

If men in the Complementarian System are the initiators and leaders, then why is it Aimee’s responsibility to seek reconciliation with Burk who started the whole thing with Aimee?

I don’t pay a lot of attention to arguments inside the various comp factions, it all get fuzzy and my eyes glaze over. However, Gram’s point is crystal clear. It exposes the inability of these men to follow their own teaching yet they expect us to believe their assertion that when comp is closely followed it does not result in abuse.

So we have the spokesmen for comp who claim to have it figured out. Men are to be superior to women in all ways measurable here on Earth, but it doesn’t result in abuse. Yet they are unable it into practice themselves. So what can we expect from their followers after a bad day and a few beers?

Lydia wrote:

Lol! I just received a text from an old friend… her former church is promoting a women’s retreat with Mary Mohler as keynote. She is going to teach them how to pray and memorize Scripture. 100 bucks.

Pray and memorize scriptures for free or $100? With the SBC losing so many missionaries why not use the $100 a head towards missions. Sadly, I know why they do not do this.

Nancy2 wrote:

And, since women can not have the same standing in churches as men, it should be reflected in tithe percentages!

If I was a woman in these churches, I would not give these “churches” a dime.

mot wrote:

If I was a woman in these churches, I would not give these “churches” a dime.

Amen!

Bill M wrote:

I can think of two solutions, some Spirit led people exercise their gifts to bring justice and healing, the other is to put more power into the pastorate. Way too many think I am hopelessly naive to think the Spirit working though people can figure it out.

I too prefer the Holy Spirit solution. There’s always an answer that’s better than lining up with factions, following gut emotions, or relying entirely on analysis. Prayer can reveal a better approach, help us hang in there, or light up the emergency exit sign.

@ mot:
You get to sit in the same room with a celebrity christian wife.

Lydia wrote:

@ mot:
You get to sit in the same room with a celebrity christian wife.

How sad that people are so enamored with celebrity and would pay $100 for nothing IMO.

Lea wrote:

Of course, when you show them women who have been harmed they dismiss this entirely.

Or, when you show them women who have in fact been harmed by it, such as Ruth Tucker, they still dismiss it, like Byrd wrote of here:

Black and White Reviews, Black and Blue Complementarianism
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/black-and-white-reviews-black-and-blue-complementarianism#.V42mW9QrLGj

Some complementarians might concede that abuse happens in cases where complementarianism is ‘not practiced properly,’ which I commented upon over at my ‘Miss Daily Flower’ blog, because I was hurt by the properly- carried- out, warm- and- fuzzy variety of complementarianism.

@ should be congratulating themselves on is the fact that they are reformed and that means that Moeller actually responded to them instead of watching them away like a little fleece:
No one rewrote history, no one exonerated anyone. Todd Pruitt stated the facts, no more, no less. It is the artists formerly known as “thin Comps” who are in the thick of it, not the egals. And it’s equally significant that it’s not the non-confessional, “anything goes cos we love our freedom” Anabaptists who are opposing it.
As for Albert Mohler, check out his blog to see where he is taking you.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2016/08/03/southern-baptists-quest-theological-identity/

@ Lowlandseer:

Geez, you’d think he was there witnessing the whole thing go down. I wonder if he would draw so much meaning out of some vague words if they came down against men?

Gram3 wrote:

Which is it?

Whichever one puts the man in charge! Obviously.

It’s a bit rich to have the comp folks dismiss all egal arguments as feminist or Ungospely or what have you (and yes there were ones pre dating the current dust up) and then pat the comps on the back because they are kind of being heard.

Sort of like when men don’t listen to women at all – then patting a man on a back for being the one who is heard! The problem was that some people were not listening.

@ Lowlandseer:
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to tell me. Anabaptists?

Lea wrote:

Whichever one puts the man in charge! Obviously.

It is an example of reasoning from a certain conclusion which must be protected, and it is not productive if the presumed point of Biblical studies is to discern what God has told us in his written word. For those of us with a conservative view of the text, it makes no sense to approach the text that way.

siteseer wrote:

Geez, you’d think he was there witnessing the whole thing go down. I wonder if he would draw so much meaning out of some vague words if they came down against men?

Probably not. Ray Ortlund’s chapter in RBMW is full of speculation and eisegesis. Much worse than the quote Lowlandseer offered. Embarrassingly worse.

The problem for many is that there is an almost universal history within the church of all-male leadership. So the question can naturally arise, “Can the church have been this wrong for so long?” For some people, that is a huge hurdle because they have invested a lot of personal capital in being on the right side of this issue. Human nature does not get checked at the desk in the church foyer/narthex.

Gram3 wrote:

Also, it is interesting that the Woman is accused of being untaught regarding the Tree at the same time as she is accused of “twisting” what God said about the Tree. Which is it?

Good catch. She is deceived but also crafty? This has been an underlying thrme in comp borrowed from Patriarchy. You would think the Cross/Resurrection would give us gals hope in this diabolical situation we have been in for thousands of years.

Gram3 wrote:

The egalitarians never bought into the ESS and have opposed it before. Not news.

Was that the message? If s/he is referring to others in the SBC who did not come down on ESS, the S/he made a good point.

I can explain what I think was going on. Nothing has been more important in the SBC leadership than comp doctrine. And this was before the Neo Cal resurgence was identified. One can read quotes from Dorothy Patterson from the early days and see how close she skates to ESS to prop up comp doctrines.

I honestly do not think the SBC has many serious scholars we would know about. Since the CR, that has not been a priority or even allowed. The priority was indoctrinaion. I think many Reformed seminaries have moved in that direction, too, but in different ways.

I agree that any with an Anabaptist bent that might be left in the SBC missed it a long time ago.

@ mot:

“IMO they have bought into the system and unless they now go along they will lose all of their “friends” or worse yet possibly their jobs or positions.”
++++++++++

so, they’ve kind of sold their souls. in a way.

so, not all progress, then.

quite a sad pickle.

dang, being pro-people, pro human being is so much better! so life-giving to all, including oneself.

Darlene wrote:

I wonder if Docent is the *go-to* source for all pastors regardless of their denomination. Do they script write for Word of Faith pastors, Methodist, Lutheran as well as Calvinist pastors? What about women pastors? Think of all the possibilities.

I have several friends who worked for Docent, so I got a bit of a behind-the-scenes perspective.

My understanding is that the guy behind Docent, Glenn Lucke, comes from a Neo-Reformed background (MDiv from RTS), and many of his clients are Neo-Reformed.

They accept clients from all denominations, but they tend to lean Neo-Reformed because of the work that they do. That is, their scholarly, academic approach happens to appeal heavily to the Neo-Reformed crowd, who like to fancy themselves “scholars” as well as pastors.

For my own part, I certainly support pastors who want to responsibly exegete Scripture, and I see much value in Christians learning Greek, Hebrew, Near Eastern and Greco-Roman history/culture, etc. But I find the obsession – dare I say fetishization – of the “scholarly” side of ministry to be quite disturbing and unhealthy.

Lydia wrote:

Was that the message? If s/he is referring to others in the SBC who did not come down on ESS, the S/he made a good point.

I think I missed the point S/he was making. Which is not unusual for me.

Lowlandseer wrote:

Third, the woman responds by twisting the word God had revealed. In her response to the Serpent (3:2–3), she exaggerates the prohibition (“neither shall you touch it”), she minimizes the privileges (“we may eat” rather than “you may eat freely”), and she minimizes the penalty (“lest you die” rather than “you will certainly die”).

How do you know that it was Eve who twisted the words? The Bible does not state how Eve came to her understanding of the prohibition. It’s far more likely that it was Adam who told her, and he was the one who added to it. We have no way of knowing for sure because the Bible is silent. But adding rules to the rules seems to be a pretty solid fact of religious history.

Ken F wrote:

We have no way of knowing for sure because the Bible is silent.

For too many, the Bible’s silence is an opportunity too great to let pass without extended explanation of what that silence means, contains, entails, ordains.

@ Gram3:

Funny they never seem to come up with ideas that put *them* at disadvantage.

Lowlandseer wrote:

It is the artists formerly known as “thin Comps” who are in the thick of it, not the egals.

Wrong. It is the people like Dr. Sherri Klouda and Karen Hinckley and Pam Palmer and Dr. Ruth Tucker who are in the thick of this fight. They’re the ones who have faced the worst abuse at the hands of gender comp doctrine, (and its even uglier cousin, the ESS). They suffered more, and for longer, than Pruitt and Trueman can probably fathom. In my mind, women like these are the true examples of courage and perseverance.

Whatever these two men have lost by opposing ESS, it is very hard for me to consider them martyrs or heroes. To borrow Sir Isaac Newton’s words, they are standing on the shoulders of giants. And the vast majority of those giants are women.

@ Gram3:

“The problem for many is that there is an almost universal history within the church of all-male leadership. So the question can naturally arise, “Can the church have been this wrong for so long?” For some people, that is a huge hurdle because they have invested a lot of personal capital in being on the right side of this issue. ”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

gaaaaaahd, that is so disappointing. what soul sell-outs. ‘let’s keep women bound and gagged because i have too much money and time and power investments at stake.’

@ elastigirl:
They have for eons. That was a staple. Are you kidding….bible drills, training union…the works. That is why it is so ridiculous.

They just want people to memorize it through their interpretive filter of determinism. I wonder if Mary Mohler will teach the Bruce Ware method of praying?

These women could take their $100 put it in a big pot and go help some hurting family or a single mom instead of paying Mary Mohler. That would be church.

siteseer wrote:

Another thought I have, how many times have you looked up a new testament quote from the old only to find it is worded differently. Was Paul twisting the scriptures?

This is a great question. In some cases is does seem that the NT writers paraphrased the OT. Another factor is they most often quoted from the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the OT translated about 300 years before the crucifixion (apparently had Greek became such a dominant language among even the Jews that they wanted a translation of their scriptures in the native tongue). Lots has been written on this. I am way under-qualified to go into any more depth than this.

@ Aron:

Good (and on topic!) post that I hope doesn’t get lost in the shuffle. It sounds like you have the right idea.

@ Aron:
You sound like the pastors I grew up around. I miss how church could be. Frankly, I don’t know how they did it all back then. There was certainly no celebrity to it. It was a sacrificial sort of life. They certainly weren’t jetting around the world on missions all the time like we see so many doing now.

Bridget wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
Also, it is interesting that the Woman is accused of being untaught regarding the Tree at the same time as she is accused of “twisting” what God said about the Tree. Which is it?
I was scratching my head on that one too!

Maybe he was just making sure he had all of the comp bases covered!

@ Nancy2:
Did I miss the part where he proves creation order?

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

It is the people like Dr. Sherri Klouda and Karen Hinckley and Pam Palmer and Dr. Ruth Tucker who are in the thick of this fight. They’re the ones who have faced the worst abuse at the hands of gender comp doctrine, (and its even uglier cousin, the ESS)

Excellent point. Thank you for putting the burden they bear in perspective.

@ Ken F:
Concerning RTS, Ligon Duncan of T$G fab four, is Chancellor.

Nancy2 wrote:

Uhmmmmm. So, how do I freeze them back? I don’t know where to find any cryogenic tubes. Can I just throw them in chest freezer, or maybe airdrop them over central Anartica?

Load them in spacegoing DC-8s and drop them into Teegeeack’s volcanoes.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

It is the people like Dr. Sherri Klouda and Karen Hinckley and Pam Palmer and Dr. Ruth Tucker who are in the thick of this fight. They’re the ones who have faced the worst abuse at the hands of gender comp doctrine, (and its even uglier cousin, the ESS). They suffered more, and for longer, than Pruitt and Trueman can probably fathom. In my mind, women like these are the true examples of courage and perseverance.

Whatever these two men have lost by opposing ESS, it is very hard for me to consider them martyrs or heroes. To borrow Sir Isaac Newton’s words, they are standing on the shoulders of giants. And the vast majority of those giants are women.

I agree with LEA, this is a brilliant statement. I remember the relief I felt when I found out that the Southern Baptists were not connected to Westboro Baptists Church;
only to discover the horror of how Dr. Sherri Klouda and her family were treated at the hands of Patterson and his cronies. I couldn’t believe anyone could be so cruel to a revered seminary Hebrew professor and her very ill husband, and at at the same time justify the abuse by calling it ‘Christianity’. Thanks to Wade Burleson and some very good people, Dr. Klouda was helped, but still sold her own blood to help pay her husband’s medical bills. She is one of the ‘giants’ among Southern Baptist people, yes. She has endured and survived, and she is honored for her devotion to her family at a time when she was betrayed by the patriarchists who ‘took over’ her denomination.

elastigirl wrote:

@ mot:

“Pray and memorize scriptures for free or $100? With the SBC losing so many missionaries why not use the $100 a head towards missions. Sadly, I know why they do not do this.”
++++++++++++++++++++++

i don’t think i understand enough SBC stuff to connect the dots (although i probably should by now, having read TWW for 4 or 5 years).

why do they not do this?

It is only my opinion, but Southern Baptists are being lead by men that have little to no heart for missions. They talk a big game, but there actions betray them. These ladies will antie up $100 for this seminar but it is doubtful in my mind they would give this same $100 to any type of missions. Those that read this please do not misunderstand me, men do the very same thing in the SBC.

Nancy2 wrote:

Maybe he was just making sure he had all of the comp bases covered!

I think he is confused about the Woman and inserts details into the text because he has certain things he needs to “prove” about the Woman and the Man in the Genesis narrative. Alternatively, he might fill in the textual gaps with his interpretations because he has been so thoroughly steeped in and has internalized the *correct* narrative which is filled with eisegesis. See Ortlund.

I don’t know which it is (or if it is something else), but it would be interesting to see what he says about the Man’s actions and responses. I’m guessing he says something like the Man failed to act as guardian of the Garden, was passive when his wife was challenged by the serpent or something like that. Then that will be “proof” that there is a hierarchy which was disregarded by the Man and Woman and that is why we are in such a mess. It is very odd, IMO, that they place such emphasis on the Man and Woman forsaking their “Roles” that the grave sins the Couple committed against God are kept in the shadow.

In the Complementarian world, the Bible is sometimes read backwards. On the gender questions, Genesis is interpreted by their *interpretation* of 1 Timothy 2, Ephesians 5, and 1 Corinthians 11. Their argument for doing that is that the New Testament explains the Old Testament. I think that is true to an extent.

However, if gender relationships are God’s design or law or intention, then ISTM that he would have been crystal clear about that, and Genesis 1:26-28 does not reveal anything about a hierarchy of any kind *between Man and Woman.* That is why they go to such fanciful lengths to “find” it in Genesis 2. And their *interpretation* of Genesis 2 is read back into Genesis 1. The process is ad hoc to the bone.

Bill M wrote:

It is one thing to admit an error, quite another to admit you have been suckered. At that point it takes a very humble person to backup and admit they were “had” and I have met very few people with that capability.

I’ve also learned that lesson the hard way, but there is no other way to move forward positively without coming to grips with the fact that I’ve been had. Manipulative people prey on those with good hearts and intentions.

Gram3 wrote:

However, if gender relationships are God’s design or law or intention, then ISTM that he would have been crystal clear about that, and Genesis 1:26-28 does not reveal anything about a hierarchy of any kind *between Man and Woman.* That is why they go to such fanciful lengths to “find” it in Genesis 2.

Jesus responded to the religious leaders of his day, “You have a clever way of rejecting God’s law in order to uphold your own teaching.” Mark 7:9

okrapod wrote:

Anyhow, I do not see how Christianity can be maintained as a viable religious alternative if everything that Christianity either sees in the OT or concludes from the OT has to be spelled out in the OT in the way that Christianity understands it.

I agree with this totally but want to be very careful because this is such ingrained thinking. You hear it all the time: Scripture interprets scripture. Well, not always. Maybe if we fly at birds eye view in interpretation with overall themes concerning God’s attributes?

It is a subject that needs to allow for nuances. For one thing, the bible is a collection of books. Not a long narrative. And as you mentioned the “law also says” could very well be referring to tradition not Mosaic law. And the absolute worst that is misused in this manner is the book of Romans which ends in completely missing the overall point of the letter. It is a tricky discussion. I wish I were more educated on it.

@ okrapod:
What I said was:

Their argument for doing that is that the New Testament explains the Old Testament. I think that is true to an extent.

Understanding OT types and fulfillment of prophecies and understanding the implications of the New Covenant in Jeremiah would be legitimate ways of using the NT to understand the OT.

However, that is qualitatively different, IMO, than taking an *interpretation* of a NT directive by Paul to a particular audience (what that audience was is debated) and making that directive into an interpretive key to finding a Creation mandate which is nowhere in the actual Genesis narrative. By doing that, they are *changing* what the OT explicitly says in Genesis 1:26-28. That is not legitimate, IMO, by any conservative interpretive standard.

Mr.H wrote:

I have several friends who worked for Docent, so I got a bit of a behind-the-scenes perspective.
My understanding is that the guy behind Docent, Glenn Lucke, comes from a Neo-Reformed background (MDiv from RTS), and many of his clients are Neo-Reformed.
They accept clients from all denominations, but they tend to lean Neo-Reformed because of the work that they do. That is, their scholarly, academic approach happens to appeal heavily to the Neo-Reformed crowd, who like to fancy themselves “scholars” as well as pastors.
For my own part, I certainly support pastors who want to responsibly exegete Scripture, and I see much value in Christians learning Greek, Hebrew, Near Eastern and Greco-Roman history/culture, etc. But I find the obsession – dare I say fetishization – of the “scholarly” side of ministry to be quite disturbing and unhealthy.

Thanks for this. Were your friends who worked for Docent part-time clergy, under-employed scholars, graduate students in need of money, retirees, something else? Did they try to represent the tradition where the sermon would be preached, or did they stick to what they knew? These are not gotcha questions… I’ve done some (secular) ghost writing and would like to understand more.

Off topic, I looked at the RTS website and saw that several of the campus addresses don’t quite match their names. RTS Atlanta is in Marietta, RTS Orlando is in Oviedo, RTS Washington DC is in McLean, VA, and RTS New York City is in Charlotte, NC. I’ve heard of grade inflation, but this looks like geography inflation to me.

@ Lydia:

perhaps Christiane whole-heartedly agrees. it’s just that the topic at hand is ESS and evangelical shenanigans.

@ elastigirl:

Sorry. Been reading her since 2006 or 7. I know the game.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Wrong. It is the people like Dr. Sherri Klouda and Karen Hinckley and Pam Palmer and Dr. Ruth Tucker who are in the thick of this fight. They’re the ones who have faced the worst abuse at the hands of gender comp doctrine, (and its even uglier cousin, the ESS). They suffered more, and for longer, than Pruitt and Trueman can probably fathom. In my mind, women like these are the true examples of courage and perseverance.

Whatever these two men have lost by opposing ESS, it is very hard for me to consider them martyrs or heroes. To borrow Sir Isaac Newton’s words, they are standing on the shoulders of giants. And the vast majority of those giants are women.

True observation.

It’s kind of interesting to contrast the idea of ESS – women being subjugated to men for eternity – with Christ’s statement that “But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.” Many surprises are in order for those who are so sure of their convictions in this world, I am sure!

@ Lydia:

Yes, the money being poured into it, heartbreaking and infuriating…

@ Lydia:
What game ? is it because she happens to be catholic ? what am I missing ? don’t mean to be snarky, but some of the kindest people to me have been Catholic fellow believers. If you don’t give her the benefit of the doubt,you are missing a “truckload of sweet fellowship” (sorry for going Southern… y’all from these parts would know better than me because I am just a European transplant….). no seriously Lydia, you have been quite kind to me today, way more than a bunch of folks who were supposed to be part of my “Christian” world through out my life. You are so much kinder and so much better than this last comment of yours… Why attack when you can speak kindness ? why not speak”gracious words” that will forever be recorded in Heaven as “edifying, encouraging, spurring each other on to good deeds and acts of love”? You obviously have a kind heart, or you would not have wasted your time engaging with me. God has his people in all kinds of churches and all kinds of nations. Please don’t listen to lies. Please find it in your heart to be kind and gracious to a fellow heir in Christ, albeit from another denomination/church. It doesn’t cost you anything, not even a shred of your honor….

@ siteseer:

Ken F: “Miles Van Pelt… expert on Hebrew. … on TGC: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/rethinking-jephthah-foolish-vow. This is a very weird article. I’ve never before seen anyone trying to justify that horrific action. I think he is horrifically wrong, but I don’t have the academic credentials to prove it.”

siteseer: “Nor do I, but I recoiled and could not even finish the article. Maybe Jephthah was more an illustration of stupidity?”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

maybe it’s just history. this is what happened.

elastigirl wrote:

i just read a Kentuckian’s comment, “Californians don’t know what country ham is”.
what is country ham?

Country ham is packed in salt to draw the moisture out of the meat and prevent spoiling. The meat is usually covered in salt for 3 weeks or more. The meat is then removed from salt, rinsed off and hung up in the smokehouse. A fire is built in the smokehouse and covered with sawdust to make thick smoke. The fire is burned for several days to ” smoke” the meat – gives it good flavor. Hickory and apple are common woods to use to smoke meat. I prefer hickory. We used to do our own.
FYI Cadiz has a Ham Festival every year. The town has painted pigs (statues, not live pigs) all over the place painted with all sorts of patterns and colors. There used to be a famous ham company in Cadiz (Broadbent Hams), but it closed several years ago. One of the Broadbent grandsons was one of my students, and his mother was a co-worker of mine.

Gram3 wrote:

However, that is qualitatively different, IMO, than taking an *interpretation* of a NT directive by Paul to a particular audience (what that audience was is debated) and making that directive into an interpretive key to finding a Creation mandate which is nowhere in the actual Genesis narrative. By doing that, they are *changing* what the OT explicitly says in Genesis 1:26-28. That is not legitimate, IMO, by any conservative interpretive standard.

Besides that, they are making assumptions about what Paul said so that they can still apply OT Mosaic Law to women. Men are free from Mosaic Law with the New Covenant, but women are not.

@ Nancy2:
As gifts, we once took traditional uncooked Smithfield country hams to the aunts up north in Massachusetts. Fortunately most of them read the directions for preparation, but not dear Aunt Evelyn, who ‘didn’t need to read the directions’, as she had her own method. I remember my father’s face when the phone call from Aunt Evelyn came in regarding the ‘bad ham’ my parents brought her. Pop asked her how long she had soaked the ham and how frequently she had changed the water. Well, Evelyn had cooked it ‘her way’ and according to her the ham was truly terrible. Poor Pop. He tried. 🙂

@ Ken F’s wife:
Christiane and I have had a blog relationship of sorts for almost 10 years. I am a big meanie. I like truth more than totalitarian niceness. :o)

don’t tell me you discriminate against meanies!? (Smile)

@ elastigirl:
Yes. That is close. I had to go big theme to love it again. God, The Trinity constantly providing rescue, accessible for wisdom and we blow it over and over. Jesus brings New Day. New Life conquering death but showing us how to live first.

So when Eph 5 becomes some bizarre religion of bondage or 1 Corintian 11 is taught to prove Jesus a lesser God, the big theme puts me back on track.

@ Daisy:
I grew up around Catholics. My city is very heavily Catholic. I have a hard time wrapping my head around someone seeing Westboro on TV and thinking all Baptists are like that and then going to Baptist blogs and then telling them that. But then I heard that story about 9 years ago, too, on a Baptist oriented blog.

Lydia wrote:

I grew up around Catholics. My city is very heavily Catholic. I have a hard time wrapping my head around someone seeing Westboro on TV and thinking all Baptists are like that and then going to Baptist blogs and then telling them that. But then I heard that story about 9 years ago, too, on a Baptist oriented blog.

http://www.wadeburleson.org/2009/03/southern-baptist-pastor-encouraged-by.html

Christiane wrote:

Well, Evelyn had cooked it ‘her way’ and according to her the ham was truly terrible. Poor Pop. He tried.

Yep. My husband was born and raised in Oxford County, Maine. Them Yanks cook way different from Southern Kentuckians and Tennesseans. When we went up to visit my husband’s family, they always wanted me to make cornbread and biscuits while we were there. I took cornmeal and flour from home because you couldn’t find white cornmeal in 5lb. bags or White Lily flour until Walmart expanded to the far NE around about 2003 or 2004! Their stores only had plain, yellow cornmeal in little round oatmeal-like containers!

@ okrapod:

Your comment got me to thinking. I have not compared the 63 to 00 in ages so decided to look at Dr. Dildays analysis which is where I first heard this concern:

“BFM63 says, “the criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ.” BFM2000 substitutes, “All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is himself the focus of divine revelation.”

BFM2000 also deleted from BFM63, “Baptists are a people who profess a living faith. This faith is rooted and grounded in Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. Therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice among Baptists is Jesus Christ whose will is revealed in the Holy Scriptures.””

He seemed to be concerned the changes elevated the Bible over Jesus Christ.

http://www.centerforbaptiststudies.org/hotissues/dildayfm2000.htm

The statement says “All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.” How is that throwing Jesus under the bus, so to speak? I get it that the conservatives made more out of scripture than the moderates wanted them to, and that might be a legitimate issue in the moderate/ conservative conflict, but nobody eliminated Jesus from the focus of scripture.

Gram3 wrote:

No, Paul and the others may not be interpreted from Jesus’ words or actions.

It is much easier to manipulate St. Paul’s words to an agenda than to try to do the same thing with the words of Our Lord.

When a person refers to St. Paul’s words, that can say, ‘in other words, this means …..’ and maybe get away with it;

but when Our Lord has spoken, there are no ‘in other words’

Lydia wrote:

“BFM63 says, “the criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ.” BFM2000 substitutes, “All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is himself the focus of divine revelation.”

The difference is subtle. But then, you wonder, why reword it if it’s okay as it is? In the first, the Bible is to be interpreted by Jesus Christ. In the second, the Bible is a testimony to Christ and he is the focus. On the one hand, they retained a high view of Christ but on the other they removed the interpretation of scripture through him?