Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg
Here is our Order of Worship
Prayer of Ambrose of Milan, c 339-97 link
O Lord, who hast mercy upon all, take away from me my sins,
and mercifully kindle in me the fire of thy Holy Spirit.
Take away from me the heart of stone,
and give me a heart of flesh,
a heart to love and adore thee,
a heart to delight in thee,
to follow and to enjoy thee,
for Christ's sake.
Amen
Prayer from the earliest Christians -1 Clement (c. 96) link
We ask you, Master, be our helper and defender.
Rescue those of our number in distress; raise up the fallen;
assist the needy; heal the sick; turn back those of your people who stray;
feed the hungry; release our captives; revive the weak; encourage those who lose heart.
Let all the nations realize that you are the only God, that Jesus Christ is your Child,
and that we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.
Amen
Scripture Reading: Luke 11:1-4 (NASB Bible Gateway)
It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.” And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
Father, hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
And forgive us our sins,
For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”
Benediction: Jude 24-25 link
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Dear Wartburg Watch Readers:
Interesting sermon. Thought-provoking.
The part of the Lord’s Prayer about God forgiving our debts as we forgive our debtors raises more questions than answers for me.
What does it mean to forgive?
Does it mean the absence of personal revenge (or the absence of the desire for personal revenge)? Does it mean not feeling hurt or angry? Does it mean not holding others accountable for evil? Does it mean reconciliation? Does it mean trusting that person again, acting like what they did never happened? Does it mean not telling others about the person’s sin?
I ask these questions as the adult child of a sexual predator.
I don’t think that I hate my father. I don’t want him to burn in Hell. I do not desire or plan to take personal revenge against him. But I DO want to see his a$$ in jail (which will probably never happen). I DO want him to really understand how evil he is, to feel deeply ashamed of his actions, and come to repentance (which will also probably never happen, given that he has been making excuses for himself his entire life and has seared his own conscience with his evil deeds). I DO want others to know what he did and keep their children away from him. I don’t EVER want my own children to be around him. Even if he were to make a profession of faith in the future, I would still never trust him. And I still feel angry and hurt whenever I think about what he did to me. In fact, I feel hurt and angry in brand new ways whenever I reach a new stage of my own life.
Yes, I still feel angry and hurt. Does that mean that I’m unforgiving? Does that mean that my own sins aren’t forgiven? Does that mean I’m going to Hell? I don’t think so, but I wonder sometimes. Jesus was angry at times — He was angry at the pharisees for exploiting others. He was angry at those who despised little children and “the least of these.” He even talked about millstones and casting those who hurt children into the sea.
So what is forgiveness anyways? A feeling? An action? The absence of certain feelings or actions?
@ AnonymousToo:
As one survivor to another, I have wrestled with this issue, too.
First, forgiveness is not a feeling or the absence of one. It does not require pretending actions did not happen or reconciling with a dangerous individual. To forgive as God does, consider how he forgives. Repentance is a part of receiving forgiveness from God. I believe the best we can do for unrepentant perpetrators is to turn them in to the authorities and turn their soul and their actions over to God and severe our connection.
AnonymousToo and Jeannette,
Great questions. Not sure that I have the answer, but I’ll try.
1). You are both correct that “repentance” is part of forgiveness from God. Whether repentance is a gift from God or flows from man without God’s grace is a subject for debate, but the only evidence forgiveness from God is present is repentance.
2). In Matthew 18, Jesus said “If your brother SAYS, “I repent,” you are to forgive him. Ouch. Repentance can only be measured by what someone SAYS, not what someone DOES. The spoken word is at the center of grace. Measuring repentance is at the center of the Law. We are under the New Covenant of grace, whereby we receive our righteousness from God by faith, not our works. Of course, that means people who SAY they repent are liable to do the same thing again, so….
3). The disciples asked Jesus, “But what if a man comes and steals my net and says, “I repent” and steals again, and again, and again? (in the same day no less), How MANY TIMES am I to forgive?” Jesus responded 70 X 7 – which is a Hebraism for “infinity.” Of course, every religious person I know (including me) would have the tendency to say, “But how can I forgive him – he’s NOT REPENTANT!” (Answer: He SAYS I repent. My job is not to measure repentance, only to accept the word that someone “Acknowledges what they’ve done is wrong and SAID “I’m sorry. What I did to you was wrong. Will you forgive me?” The good news for the person who sins (and lives with a person of grace) is that there’s always hope.
4). Therefore, in my life I separate between “a spirit or willingness to forgive” which is to be continually in my heart as a follower of Jesus, and
5). The act of forgiveness which is someone who’s wronged me say “I’m sorry, will you forgive me.” BUT…
6). The Bible says “Love covers a multitude of sins” so I’ve learned in life that when I love people I rarely get offended with people, however,
7). If an offense is so egregious against me, I will make sure that my spirit is willing to forgive and will “BRING UP THE OFFENSE” with the sinner – expressing my belief that what was done was wrong, with the goal of bringing the offender to CONFESSION of the wrong (REPENTANCE is CONFESSION – e.g. “He SAYS ‘I repent.”).
So, AnonymousToo, being I can’t answer your question about “being angry and hurt” because the truth is some egregious sins are so dadgum awful, ANYONE would be angry and hurt (eg. I’m thinking of a woman in my church whose daughter was cold-bloodedly murdered). However, within my church member I see “a spirit and willingness to forgive” but have reminded her that she can’t express the ACT of forgiveness (in the jury trial or in life) until the murderer confesses that what he did was wrong and seeks her forgiveness.
Would she be obligated then to forgive. Yes. Not so much obligated, but since she already possesses the spirit of forgiveness (She herself has been forgiven by Christ), she is ready and willing to forgive the person individually.
One final note. I have also tried to help my church member see that she may grant PERSONAL forgiveness, but in the way our nation dispenses judgment, it is the STATE, not the VICTIM who punishes the criminal. Therefore, if the offender REPENTS before trial, she can forgive him (and say so), but she’s obligated to tell the state everything the state needs to know to punish the criminal.
Not so with God. When the offender repents and trusts Christ, my sins are “cast into the sea of forgetfulness,” and “placed on the back of the scapegoat and lost in the wilderness,” and “remembered no more” by God.
That’s good news.
From the Moderator:
I have changed the moniker of the first commenter in this thread from 'Anonymous' to 'AnonymousToo' since we already have a regular reader who goes by 'Anonymous'.
It keeps things less complicated when each of our commenters has their own unique moniker. Thanks for understanding. 🙂
@ AnonymousToo:
Welcome to TWW. So grateful you were able to share your painful testimony here and ask important questions, which I am certain others in our online community have as well. Hope you will continue to comment.
Please see our note from the moderator regarding your moniker. Since you are new, you had no way of knowing that we already have an 'Anonymous' in our midst.
Blessings to you.
The Bible tells us to be angry and sin not. I take this to mean it ok to be angry, like Christ was, but not to let our anger get so big that we are actually sinning. Yes, you are angry about what was done to you, but you are not consumed by it. It is not your every thought, every breath you take about anger. I hope this makes some sense. I had to learn this lesson too. Not in the way anonymous too did, but towards others that had hurt me in life. For to long, many years ago, I was consumed with anger over what had been done to me. I finally had to realize it was controlling my life. I had to turn it over to God, and ask forgiveness for my unrepenting spirit. It changed how I felt about things.
Wade Burleson wrote:
The actual definition of the word, metanoia, says different. It is not just words.
The Greek preposition “meta” had come to mean in common usage “from…to”. The second part related to ” nous ” signifies “the core of one’s being”. The combination of meta and nous communicated a “from…to ” movement in the inner person, a metamorphosis that takes place in the heart/soul. A change that comes to expression in a contrasting way of life.
Lydia,
I agree with you on the definition of repentance. It’s not just words. It’s actions.
My point, which you may have missed, is that it’s not your job or mine to measure repentance – only God’s.
Wade
@ wade burleson:
It is my job to protect my children and warn others who may be in danger from a “repentant” molester, abuser, etc.
Hi Wade. I want to than you and Dee and Deb for these weekly worship services. I’ve really enjoyed them. This week’s sermon brought out some really good points. There are a few I’d like to ask about. Recently, I’ve been evaluating everything I’ve always thought or assumed about God and Jesus in case I, or Christians in general, have any incorrect assumptions about God, any expectations that aren’t Biblical. So, to give you some background, I was in a bad work situation where leadership did not plan well for a large project. When the project naturally went south, the leadership lashed out at people, me included, and eliminated our jobs. Some people made charges of a hostile work environment with one person, not me, filing a lawsuit. Even HR said that we were treated badly. What followed for me was a time of extended family crises which only I could handle and could not do so if I were working (I do realize this.). In all this, I had cried out to God and recited verses of deliverance and believed that I would receive, blah blah blah – and I lost my job. Not the deliverance I was looking for, and treated badly on top of it. So:
1. As others have noted, how do we forgive? Noting that God has forgiven me doesn’t help me (sorry, I don’t mean to be difficult. Just being honest.) I used to be the Christian who would say that of course we need to and can forgive, until I got a cold dose of the real world.
2. Aren’t we supposed to forgive even if the wrong-doer is not repentant and doesn’t ask for our forgiveness?
3. The couple who had the stillborn child prayed for God’s sustaining grace? Before, I would have thought I knew what that was, now I’m no so sure. How do you define God’s sustaining grace, particularly when we’re going through very bad times?
4. If we die and haven’t perfectly forgiven everyone, because I think few of us ever feel perfect forgiveness every single moment, we are saved because of our belief in Christ, right?
Thanks!
Wade Burleson wrote:
I took this and the rest at face value. I don’t really understand the concept of “the spoken word is the center of grace. Measuring repentance is at the center of the law”
Jesus preached: Repent and believe.
Do we always believe words that have no corresponding actions to match? At some point we are enablers. I lost count of Driscoll’s repenting on stage. I don’t think we need to be doormat Christians.
Harley wrote:
I think it takes time to get to this point. In other words, I think the passage of time can heal and help us get to this point.
Lydia,
I think you are asking some outstanding questions. Here’s one: “Jesus preached ‘repent and believe.’ Do we always believe words that have no corresponding actions?”
I’m reminded of I Corinthians 13 and the words: “Love believes all things.”
To answer your question simply and directly – “Yes. If you love the person who speaks.”
Is that person always “truly repentant”?
No. Of course not. The person could be lying as well. The judgment of motive and purity however, is God’s prerogative alone, not ours.
I’ll take a person at their word.
Of course we are to “protect” our children from “child abusers.” That’s the Law. But can a “child abuser” SAY they are repentant? Absolutely. Should we believe them? Absolutely. Should we continue to enforce the restrictions the government and state laws impose on a “child abuser”? Without a doubt. The consequences of one’s crimes never go away. So one can forgive, but in my opinion, still advocate the enforcement of the state’s consequences and punishment of the criminal.
Move it out of child abuse.
Should you forgive your adulterous spouse because he says “I repent.” Absolutely.
Does that mean you must be remain married to him or her? Of course not.
Patricia, you ask some great questions. I’ll do my best to answer them, though my answers are not always good ones!
1. As others have noted, how do we forgive? Noting that God has forgiven me doesn’t help me (sorry, I don’t mean to be difficult. Just being honest.) I used to be the Christian who would say that of course we need to and can forgive, until I got a cold dose of the real world.
God forgives me unconditionally, personnally, and eternally by His grace through my faith in His Son. We are to have a “spirit of forgiveness” similar to God’s when people wrong us. When they SAY “I repent,” we should easily and quickly forgive, because we are resting in God’s great forgiveness of us.
2. Aren’t we supposed to forgive even if the wrong-doer is not repentant and doesn’t ask for our forgiveness?
I don’t see this in Scripture. In Matthew 18 Jesus says we go to our brother in sin “and if they SAY I repent” we are to forgive them.”We are also told “love covers a multitude of sins.” So, in my life, because I love people, I overlook a lot of offenses and never consider them “sins.” However, there are some things done by people that are injurious to themselves and others (e.g. grievous sins). I HAVE a spirit of forgiveness, but I can’t forgive (definition: “A promise to never again bring up my brother’s sin and hold it against him”) until he SAYS “I repent.” So, I CAN’T forgive until there is repentance for the good of the wrongdoer. As has been said, when a criminal repents, we are to forgive, but the STATE is not in the forgiveness business. The state is involved in crime and punishment – and as good citizens of the state, we can forgive a murderer, child abuser, etc… but still support the continuing consequences of the wrongdoer’s actions that are injurious to the people who live in our state.
3. The couple who had the stillborn child prayed for God’s sustaining grace? Before, I would have thought I knew what that was, now I’m no so sure. How do you define God’s sustaining grace, particularly when we’re going through very bad times?
I define sustaining grace as “The grace I need in my moments of darkness (affliction) to remain steadfast in my love for people and for God, and to continue in the hope that my loving God is turning all my dark moments of affliction into ultimate good.”
4. If we die and haven’t perfectly forgiven everyone, because I think few of us ever feel perfect forgiveness every single moment, we are saved because of our belief in Christ, right?
Patricia, I can’t think of one thing I’ve ever done perfectly. I haven’t prayed perfectly, preached perfectly, loved perfectly, served perfectly, forgiven perfectly, etc….
But I can think of multiple things God has done perfectly for me. He has loved me perfectly, He has given to me perfect righteousness (the righteousness of His Son), He has been faithful perfectly, etc…
You are correct – it is our faith in a perfect God who gave us His Son that forgives us of our sins, not our perfect behavior. But the more you understand the perfect love and grace of God in loving us, the more you begin to love other people and be gracious to them the way God has been toward you.
That’s my opinion of what the Scriptures teach!
Harley wrote:
It also says to be ‘slow’ to anger, right? So anger seems sometimes perfectly alright.
I saw a video the other day about different types of forgiveness. It wasn’t religious (I don’t think), but I found it helpful. He talked of 1 type, forgive and the relationship is restored. Type 2, forgive but the relationship may not be restored, there may be boundaries set. Type 3, forgiveness as a type of ‘release’, but the relationship can never be restored. (I think he even mentions child abuse in this category).
I do know that relationships can be restored in a way, even for child abuse, because I’ve witnessed it. I do think forgiveness is healthy, but for great wrongs it cannot be done on someone else’s timetable, because the work of healing has to be done first in many cases.
Lea,
Good word.
@ Wade Burleson:
I don’t get it. You seem to be playing games with words and actions and lining it up with your view of law and grace.
I don’t buy into the whole Reformed new covenant theology rigid distinctions of the law/grace dichotomy so we would be talking past each other. I don’t think God was devoid of grace in the OT. And I don’t think people go on murdering and raping when responding to the rescue of Jesus Christ in the NT. But that is just me. I just hope victims know it is perfectly OK to protect yourself from toxic or evil people.
@ Wade Burleson:
Your promtoting JD Hall’s instant repentance is a good example of how convoluted and used by people to use others… This all becomes. There was no reason to “promote” his saying the words, I Repent. He didn’t. It was to make it all go away. People were his tools.. If a victim, I would caution then not trust such.
Lydia,
“I don’t think people go on murdering and raping when responding to the rescue of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.”
Scratching my head. I’m not sure I’m following you. Neither do I.
Allow me to ask a more pertinent question.
“Do you think people go on hating and lusting when responding to the rescue of Jesus Christ in the New Testament?”
If your answer is “Yes” then my second question is:
“How do you get a CHRISTIAN to stop hating and lusting? Answer: You convince them that the grace of God is so rich, so captivating, so remarkably transforming, that the pleasure of knowing Christ takes the place of hate and lust in the heart.
Thanks for the dialogue.
Lydia,
I’m unsure what you mean by promoting J.D. Hall’s “instant repentance.” I’ve never met J.D. Hall (nor you), but I promise, I would also promote your “instant repentance” as much as I would anyone – if you ever have anything to repent from. 🙂
First and foremost, in my view, victims should never be told they HAVE to forgive their abuser. For example, children who are told that they have to forgive the one who is abusing them or God will not forgive them are placed in a hopeless abusive cycle. And it mangles their ability to understand the love of God. It teaches them that love is dangerous and painful. Any healthy concept of forgiveness must start with victims being made safe and allowed to heal. Receivinng that healing through the love and care of others allows them to begin to understand the love and goodness of God. Only after this has been allowed to take place (now matter how long it takes) can healthy forgive come. In my experience, it is an outflow of receiving the love of God. And before an abuse victim can truly receive and begin understanding the love of God, they must first be allowed to acknowledge how they have been hurt…have that hurt acknowledged by others…and begin to let that love heal. Also, the healing process in not linear. It may appear to go in cicles (not be making progress), but it can be more like spiraling around an onion, peeling layers until the core is reached.
@ Lydia:
@ Wade Burleson:
Leaving JD Hall aside, I’m with Lydia on this one. I think it can be dangerous to tell an abuse victim that if someone says, “I repent,” or ,”I’m sorry,” the repentance must be accepted. When God a cepts our repentance, He does so from a position of knowing our hearts and thus our sincerity. Short of God giving us that discernment, we do not have the ability to judge the sincerity of a repentance and so, especially in the case of a serial abuser, actions must back up wirds. Anyone who demands that their apology or repentance be accepted is, in my opinion, not sincere as true repentance demands nothing of the victim and understands forgives is not a right.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
And, note that anger is a part of the grief cycle. I think it makes perfect sense for a victim to be angry, as they grieving the harm that was done to them (often in a non-linear fashion) before they can heal.
@ Lea:
Yes, this is very much a part of the healing process – as well as grieving the loss of what was taken…in my case, my childhood.
Wade Burleson wrote:
Thank you Wade. Good points to ponder!
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I like this. This and being told that they have the right to their anger. Too many Christians are uncomfortable with anger and automatically think it’s a sin. Jesus, though, talked about righteous anger.
patriciamc wrote:
I agree with this. Anger is a normal, natural emotion that surfaces as the result of certain circumstances. How it’s expressed, however, may be a different story. I have to think about that….:)
Wade Burleson wrote:
Thank you for hearing my story and discussing my questions. Just to clarify, I have struggled with this particular passage of Scripture for a long time (long before I listened to your sermon, which overall I found edifying). I appreciate the dialogue and I appreciate your recognition of the necessity to seek legal justice. I would caution you though, that I think you are putting too much emphasis on “the state.” Often in these types of cases, by the time the former victim is healed enough to tell his or her story and go to law enforcement, the statue of limitations has long since past. They say that 98% of sex offenders never spend a day in jail. Even the percentage that make it on to the sex offender registry is pathetically small. Many are serial offenders, leaving behind dozens of victims over the course of their lifetimes. And offenders don’t stop when they get old. So even when the statue of limitations is over and the state is doing NOTHING to hold the offender accountable and protect potential future victims, I believe that survivors have a responsibility to inform parents of young children, as well as the community in general, of the offender’s heinous deeds so that children can be protected. This is not about revenge or spoiling someone’s reputation, but about protecting “the least of these.”
Several commenters have defined forgiveness as not seeking personal revenge. Perhaps it also means not wishing the offender ill, or not rejoicing at your enemy’s calamity, as Proverbs says. If this is the definition of forgiveness, then yes, I have forgiven. I even pray for my former abuser to come to repentance. But if forgiveness means having warm fuzzy feelings, not feeling angry, accepting/reconciling with the offender as if their crime never happened, and not telling others what the offender did to me, then no, I have not forgiven and never will, and I guess I’ll just have to live with the consequences.
Thank you to everyone for the discussion. This is a really heavy topic and I appreciate the opportunity to have a serious discussion about it online anonymously, where I don’t have to fear the consequences of being labeled as “bitter” just because I am still hurt and angry.
@ Jeanette and Lea
So true about grief/anger/healing being a cycle and a long process. I think the cycle tends to start over when an individual reaches new stages of their life. This is true not just for survivors of trauma, but also for people who have experienced other types of losses, such as the loss of a loved one. The loss is often keenly felt at turning points in ones life, such as graduations, weddings, becoming a parent, seeing one’s own children reach the age the you were when the trauma or loss occurred, or even just reaching a new level of personal or spiritual growth. I think grief can lead to growth, too. For me, it’s lead to a deeper awareness of justice and the need to stand up for the oppressed.
@ Anonymous Too:
Yes, I have found that there have been certain things that would bring the grief to the surface. For a few years, when I would encounter the situation, I would feel deep grief…sadness…loss. I have found, overy time, the depth of the grief has lessened. It can still sneak up on me, though.
Of course, in most cases, the sexual abuse is just a part of the bigger familial dysfunction. There are so many things that intertwine, it can take years to unravel and heal.
Wade
You write @ Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:09 AM…
“In Matthew 18, Jesus said “If your brother SAYS, “I repent,” you are to forgive him.”
And, you write @ Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37 AM…
“In Matthew 18 Jesus says we go to our brother in sin
“and if they SAY I repent” we are to forgive them.”
———-
It might have been awhile since you read Mat 18…
But, Jesus, in all of Mat 18, never says the word, “repent.”
And, Jesus, in all of Mat 18, never says…
“If your brother SAYS, “I repent,” you are to forgive him.”
———–
In Mat 18:21, When Peter asks Jesus…
21 …Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me,
and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times:
but, Until seventy times seven.
Jesus, in Mat 18, never says to Peter…
“If your brother SAYS, “I repent,” you are to forgive him.”
Amos Love,
“Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”” (Luke 17:4).
It’s the parallel account to Matthew 18.
Wade
I’m glad we are in agreement. Mat 18, does NOT say…
“If your brother SAYS, “I repent,” you are to forgive him.”
And, I’m familiar with Luke 17:4.
But, Luke 17:4, does NOT sound parallel to Mat 18, at all. One verse before…
In Luke 17:3a, “If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him…”
Here, His Disciples, are told to “Rebuke” My Brother who sins against me.
This “Rebuke,” = to admonish or charge sharply, is NOT in Mat 18.
But, when we’re talking about this kind of grievous sin, a PTSD, type of sin…
A “sexual predator,” physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, child abuse, adultery…
A good “Rebuking” of the perp is in order.
But, I would NOT expect, “the victim,” when young, or even when an adult…
To do this “Rebuking” of a monster. Even if possible, It might take years, and years…
For someone to gain the courage, or the Peace of God, to “Rebuke” this monster.
And, a few more years to think about forgiveness.
Now, Jesus, can fill a believers heart with Peace to Rebuke, and to Forgive, the perp now…
I have experienced it both ways. Peace to forgive now. NO peace to forgive. Struggle. Years…
But, To tell someone, they “must” Rebuke, can also bring on fear, guilt, abuse.
To tell someone, they “must” Forgive, can also bring on fear, guilt, abuse.
Jesus taught His Disciples, “I am the vine… Abide in me… without me ye can *do nothing.*
Don’t WE, His Sheep, have to abide in Jesus? Doesn’t that speak of “time?”
In order to bring forth the fruit? Fruit takes time? Fruit of forgiveness?
When WE, His Disciples, do forgive, do WE, take the credit?
Can WE, His Disciples, even “forgive” without Jesus?
Lord Jesus, what do you want?
———-
In Luke 17:3b, “…and **if** he “repent,” forgive him.”
This “repent” Greek = metanoeo = in Thayers…
2) to change one’s mind for better,
heartily to **amend with abhorrence** of one’s past sins.
And **if** My Brother does NOT “repent,” then what? Much different than Mat 18.
There is NO mention of bringing 2 or 3 witnesses, to hopefully “Gain” My Brother.
There is NO mention of bringing My Brother before the church.
There is NO mention of My Brother being unto me “as an heathen man and a publican.”
NOPE – Luke 17:3-4, Is NOT a parallel to Mat 18:15-22.
”Understanding Forgiveness” can be quite a challenge.
Wade
I’m-a-thinkin, this forgiveness can be a challenge.
Often it takes time. Time to heal. Time to learn. Time to hear from Jesus.
I’m-a-thinkin, WE, His Disciples, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, have to ask Jesus…
When to forgive… How to forgive… Why to forgive… There are options…
You write @ Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37 AM…
“So, I CAN’T forgive until there is repentance for the good of the wrongdoer.”
But, what if Jesus asks you to forgive? Before your Brother says “I repent?”
Because, there seems to be examples of Jesus, and His Disciples…
Forgiving without repentance.
Couldn’t WE, His Kings and Priests, be asking Jesus, when and how to forgive?
1 – Jesus, do you want me forgive this person? These people? Now?
With NO, “I repent,” being asked for?
1a – Jesus, on the cross, said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
And NO, “I repent,” was asked for.a
1b – Steven, when being stoned, “cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.”
And NO, “I repent,” was asked for.
1c – Jesus, told a women, a sinner, who washed His feet, “your sins are forgiven.”
And NO, “I repent,” was asked for.
1d – Jesus, said to His Disciples.
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them… John 20:23
And NO, “I repent,” was asked for.
1e – Jesus, said to, “the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.”
And NO, “I repent,” was asked for
2 – Or, Jesus, do you want me to wait until the offending party SAYS, “I repent?”
3 – Or, Jesus, do you want me to wait until their “I repent,” produces fruit I can judge?
1 Cor 2:15
But he that is spiritual **judgeth ALL things…
4 – Or, Jesus, do you want me to just wait? And wait? For now? For your timing?
Before I forgive?
——-
Yes – Forgiving is important…
But, NOT just because someone says “sorry.” “I repent.”
Could be, but NOT always.
What is Jesus asking me to do? Now?
Each case can be different?
When? – And How? – Does Jesus want me to forgive?