As CJ Mahaney Is Honored at T4G 2016, An Alleged Pedophile From Covenant Life Church Is Arrested and Charged

“Always remember that what was done to you has nothing to do with YOU. It all has to do with a sick perverted abuser that wants/wanted power- You are not at fault and you were/are a target- but it is not because of who you are that you were/ are abused. You are worthy, beautiful, kind, smart and deserving of love, care, passion, and nurturing! xo dr. p” 
― Patti Feuereisen, Invisible Girls: The Truth About Sexual Abuse–A Book for Teen Girls, Young Women, and Everyone Who Cares About Them link

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CJ and those who love and support him…  screen shot T4G 2014

Just what is it about Covenant Life Church, CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries that seems to attract accusation after accusation of child sex abuse? What is it about the leaders in the Neo Calvinist movement that inspires them to call those who don't think this is normal of having a Javert like obsession? How do these men (and their women) ignore the mess that has been caused by one of their own? Is it worth the contributions that some of them have received? And what about the earnest young men at T4G 2016 who will give CJ a standing ovation for …what exactly? 

I was sick to my stomach when I learned of this latest situation coming out of Covenant Life Church. And for those who are so quick to say that it has nothing to do with CJ, zip your lip and check out the timeline. Thankfully, Brent Detwiler uncovered the information and is to be commended for exposing the accused pedophile at Covenant Life Church. 

Larry Ellis Caffery, respected children's ministry volunteer at Covenant Life Church, wrote a book and told CLC what might be coming.

This book would come back to haunt the pastors at Covenant Life Church, especially CJ Mahaney, Joshua Harris and Kenneth Maresco because Caffrey would provide some strong clues about his possible abuse in the future. 

Last Friday, Brent Detwiler posted Covenant Life Member & Children’s Ministry Worker, Larry Ellis Caffery, Arrested on Nine Counts of Child Sex Abuse & Two Counts of False Imprisonment. The following is the history behind this disturbing story.

According to Brent, Larry had three boys during his first marriage which ended in divorce. He married again in 1989 and had a son(b. 1997) and a daughter(b. 1999). The daughter is of particular concern in this story. Larry is a long time member of Covenant Life Church.

For the rest of this post, I will not mention the name of his current wife or his daughter who have already been through so much. I would appreciate it if our readers would also not mention their names either. I want his children and his wife to know that we are so sorry for the abuse that they have experienced.

We know a great deal about Caffery and his family because he wrote a book Years of Grace, Life of Mercy. Here is the blurb from Google.

Although this book is an autobiography, it is really a testimony of how God has worked in the life of Larry Caffery. Larry had problems with anger, which had begun to dictate daily situations in his life. He was reckless in his responses and many times lived life on the edge. As a result, his family fell apart. Larry also became angry at God because of many trials and tribulations in his life, including the death of his twelve-year-old son. He had attempted suicide on two different occasions and was struggling in his second marriage. Still, throughout the years, God had a hold on his life and showed Larry His grace and mercy. Larry eventually gave his life to God and today his life is a testimony to the difference that God can make in a person's life. The angry, reckless young man in this book no longer exists

Interestingly, our good friend, Todd Wilhelm reviewed this book on Amazon and picked up on some discrepancies in the book. Here is the first part of that review. 

This book is one of the best displays of narcissism I have ever read. Author Larry Caffery is one pompous, bizarre individual. He mentions he didn't like the military because he was a pacifist, but then relates how he wanted to turn his rifle on his Sergeant, but that the grace of God kept him from doing so. Also, while in the military and living in Germany, he mentions that he was one of only 4 in the barracks that wasn't doing drugs. He then proceeds to tell readers about two incidents where he took drugs!

He mentioned how he prayed to God that he would not have any daughters because he was afraid he would abuse them. God answered his prayers by giving him three sons from his first wife. Then in his second marriage, after his step-son killed himself by shooting himself in the stomach with a shotgun. (I wonder what made him so miserable???? ) He and his wife had their second child, a daughter. They were thrilled!

Larry stated upfront in his book that he was afraid he would abuse daughters if he had them. 

Larry states in the book that he prayed he would not have daughters because he was afraid he would sexually abuse them.

According to Brent

In his chapter, “Back in the USA,” Larry talks about his fear of sexually abusing any daughters he might have during his first marriage to (wife).  It is an ominous and foreboding statement.  His fear of sexually abusing a daughter was so great he prayed God would only give them sons.  No one dealing with these kinds of intense thoughts and temptations should be allowed to participate in children’s ministry. 

According to Brent, Larry's father abused Larry's sisters.

I had no memory of any sexual abuse, but I knew that my sisters had been sexually abused by my dad.  Although I had no memory of any abuse to me, since I knew there had been sexual abuse in my family, I agreed to do hypnotic regressions. (Location 497) 

At least one pastor at CLC was aware of this book and its contents according to Larry.

This chapter was a verbatim letter written to Master James L. Ryan of the Circuit Court for Montgomery County Maryland.  In the letter, I chastised Mr. Ryan for making, what I believed, was a wrong decision in awarding Candy full custody of our sons.  The letter was nine pages in length, and gave me much room to critize and make degrading remarks about Candy.  Upon reading the first printing of this book, one of the pastors at Covenant Life Church suggested that if I were to ever do a reprint of the book I would do well to eliminate chapter eight. … It has been four years since the original writing [in 1998].  My family and I have continued attending Covenant Life Church. (Location 884) 

Yet, Larry was allowed to work for years in the children's ministry of Covenant Life Church! (Dee is banging her head against the wall!)

Make sure you get this fact straight. You've got a guy who admits that he might sexually abuse a daughter if he had one but he is allowed to work in the children's ministry. What is wrong with CJ Mahaney and these SGM pastors? Are they looking for trouble? Do they believe that conversion *cures* all people? Are they just plain stupid? Or, do they not give a damn about the lives of children? You tell me!

Brent Detwiler quoted from the Introduction to the book. Before you read it, let's review my concern about linking expressed conversion and repentance to a lifestyle that is free from serious sin in Anatomy of Evangelical Scandals: Steve Estes, Ken Ramey, Tullian Tchvidjian and the Misunderstanding of Repentance. The bottom line from that post was this. Conversion does not mean the person is truly repentant nor does it mean that he is not subject to serious sin. Think about that as you read Larry's thinking on that matter. Once again, from Brent's post:

It’s 2002, and I’m 52 years old. … My wife [redacted] of thirteen years and I are active members of Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland.  We have two young children, and we take part in the children’s ministry program at the church.  Most people who know me find it difficult to believe I used to behave in such a different manner.  Some might even want to know the formula for change.  There really is no formula though.  It’s a matter of daily sanctification (becoming more Christlike).  I became a Christian many years ago, but I really had not attained much spiritual growth.  At some point I realized that my life was a mess, and I began to take Christianity more seriously.  It was when I began to look to the Bible for answers that my life began to change.  I had tried other solutions, but none of them worked.  In fact, one of the so-called solutions made my life much worse, even to the point of attempted suicide.  This is my story. 

Please note that Larry's daughter was born in 1999. Now, who is running CLC and Sovereign Grace Ministries in 1996? That's right. CJ Mahaney!  Josh Harris and Kenneth Maresco along with a bunch of others who were sin sniffing decent folks while overlooking potential perverts. As Brent recorded:

Larry and (wife) became members of CLC in 1996.  It appears they were still members in 2010.

…Caffery is currently a member of Covenant Life Church. (His wife's name is not listed.) (ed. note: 2016)

After receiving counseling from Pastor Kenneth Maresco at CLC starting in 1996,  he and his wife decided they wanted to have a DAUGHTER! Looks like that counseling was a rip roaring failure. Again Brent reports:

Since (wife) and I now had Sean, we considered having another child.  We both thought it would be nice to have a daughter, and that it would be good for Sean also.  We didn’t use birth control and just left the situation up to God.  One year later God did bless us with a beautiful daughter.  On February 24, 1999, she was delivered by Caesarean section.  We named her (redacted) She and Sean have grown to love each other and are wonderful playmates!  (Location 1230) 

Larry Caffery was arrested on 3/16/2016

Larry was arrested on 3/16/2016 and charged with 9 counts of sexual misconduct and 2 counts of false imprisonment from 2/24/2004-12/31/14. His preliminary hearing is set for 4/15/2016.

Here is a link to the charges.

You can follow the case You can follow his case in the District Court by going to: 

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/casesearch/processDisclaimer.jis  Use case number 4D00345412.  

What was Larry doing from 2/24/2004-12/31/2014?

1. He published his book twice while he was abusing a child.

 The book was first printed on February 1, 2005 by PublishAmerica.  It was reprinted on April 13, 2010 by Tate Publishing.  

2. He worked in the children's ministry at Covenant Life Church.

Think about the total disconnect it would take to publish his book and say the following while he was allegedly abusing a child!

Most people who know me find it difficult to believe I used to behave in such a different manner.  Some might even want to know the formula for change.  There really is no formula though.  It’s a matter of daily sanctification (becoming more Christlike).

It is absolutely essential for Covenant Life Church to contact all parents and children who were under the care of Caffery to see if any other children were abused. Has Covenant Life Church done this yet. Is PJ going to chart a different course than CJ? Or is it the same old, same old…? If so, PJ better start donating money to the *right* leaders so he, too, can sit in a special seat like CJ at the top of this post.

Here is the rest of Todd Wilhelm's review at Amazon. 

Larry Caffery tells the world he is a member of Covenant Life Church, (where CJ Mahaney and Joshua Harris of Sovereign Grace Ministries both are former senior pastors.) Caffery shared his bizarre book with at least one of the Sovereign Grace/Covenant Life pastors, and in spite of this, they allowed Caffery to work in the children's ministry!

Not surprisingly, Caffery was arrested last week and charged with 9 counts of sexual abuse and 2 counts of false imprisonment. The victim was his daughter. I feel so sorry for her and am left wondering how many other children this pervert abused.

I would not recommend anyone purchase this book. I only did so to use as a research tool in my continuing efforts to expose the abuse at Covenant Life Church and the Sovereign Grace Churches denomination, a scandal some have claimed is "largest sexual abuse scandal to hit the Evangelical church."

PS: That pastor who read the book and did nothing ought to have his butt kicked out of the ministry immediately.

T4G2016 Attendees

Surely there are some of you that find the number of child sex abuse allegations coming out of Sovereign Grace Ministries concerning? CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries have been looked at by Time Magazine and The Washingtonian as an example of what some have called the worst example of evangelical child sex abuse in the last decade. Some of your leaders have willingly taken donations by CJ Mahaney and SGM through the years while ridiculing those of us who speak for the victims of this tragedy.

Who do you serve?

 Are you going to be the one to give CJ Mahaney a standing ovation? Or will you turn your back on him or hide out in your room? Do you believe he is the example of the *cross centered life* that he writes so authoritatively about?Will you get him to autograph it for you?  How many reports of child sex abuse does it take for you to take notice? Maybe you could take some time with your friends and pray for the SGM victims of child sex abuse? Or you could stand around and glad hand CJ. Maybe you will get a job…And you will certainly serve somebody. Will it be the least of these like Jesus?

 

Comments

As CJ Mahaney Is Honored at T4G 2016, An Alleged Pedophile From Covenant Life Church Is Arrested and Charged — 290 Comments

  1. Dee or Brent,

    Do we have any idea if CJ was aware of this person or read his book? That seems to be part of the teflon coating CJ has–i.e. plausible deniability?

  2. @ Divorce Minister:
    There was a pastor who did. That pastor, if not CJ, was answerable to him. CJ gets no write off from me. Real leaders take responsibility which is not what I have even seen from CJ.

  3. Brent updated and said the wife did turn him in. She and her kids will need a lot of support.
    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???

  4. Ann wrote:

    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???

    Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

  5. It’s very hard for a mother an daughter to disclose what really happened behind closed doors in this case, but I hope that the day will come when they will be able to tell the world so that such terrible abuse will be exposed. The Christian world needs to know. We need to stand behind the abused. I feel just sick about reading such accounts as this, but I thank you for your hard work at TWW.

  6. I think I’m going to throw up. There are so many red flags–why was nothing done??? First and foremost, though, I am of the opinion that CLC needs to be held to account in a very public way. Who knows how many young victims of this man are at the church. We know that child sexual abusers don’t usually stop with one, and this man worked in ministry.

    To the wife and daughter, I would give you each a hug (everyone says I give good hugs) and know that you are in my thoughts before God.

  7. Dee, I am not a pacifist, and I’m in too foul of a mood to say much right now. I will say that you are banging the wrong head against the wall. Theys a whole lotta people what needs to get their heads slammed into a wall, but you ain’t in amongst ’em.
    Even if the victims get little to no support from the court system, I hope the truth made public will set them free and imprison their abusers and those who protect them somehow, someway!

  8. I read the article on Brent’s website the other day and my initial thought was, the churches response to this will speak volumes as to whether or not they have learned anything from the Nathan Morales debacle and the ongoing original lawsuit. The closing statement on thouarttheman.org I believe is spot on. If you leave your child in the children’s ministry at CLC, you need to have your head examined.

  9. We must NEVER forget how Wayne Grudem, Al Mohler and other Neo-Cals held up Covenant Life Church as the gold standard.

    The truth is finally being revealed.

  10. maybe the government should step in and control facilities that do not screen for child molesters and who set up services for children . . .

    looks like Churches that do this kind of thing are profoundly irresponsible and need the intevention of authorities BEFORE victims are attacked by those the Church brings in and turns loose on these children

    religious freedom? ah, no . . . NO ONE has the ‘freedom’ to abuse children, or to sanction it by ‘looking the other way’ or specifically by setting up situations where perverts are allowed access to victims

    what is going on is that some who facilitate child sexual abuse have been allowed to operate freely under the guise of ‘freedom of religion’ . . . they need to be closed down, especially after proving that they will continue facilitating perversion to occur . . . God have mercy!

  11. This is just sickening. I have no words except to the wife and daughter my prayers and heart felt sorrow for what you are going through.

  12. Just when you think you’ve heard it all…so incredibly sad for these children and the many people who systematically fail them. My heart aches, God have mercy.

    As a wife and mother, I literally cannot fathom reading those things in my husband’s book and not running 110 mph in the opposite direction :/ I’m glad that she turned him in, under whatever circumstances. May justice truly be Swift and fierce against ANYONE and EVERYONE who had a part in being negligent to protect children from this monster.

  13. @ Deb:
    You mean they got some gold from the gold standard? Gotta keep the money rolling in so it could go rolling on out to CJ’s chosen fans.

  14. dee wrote:

    @ Divorce Minister:
    There was a pastor who did. That pastor, if not CJ, was answerable to him. CJ gets no write off from me. Real leaders take responsibility which is not what I have even seen from CJ.

    Absolutely 100% agree.

  15. There are no words to describe why new churches are joining this group. Pastors that bring their congregants into this mess have either not done their due diligence to thoroughly investigate SGC or they are willing to look the other way and subject their sheep to a very real potential to be slaughtered.

    I attended an SGM church for 25 years and was actively looking at going out the door when CJ’s cover was blown several years ago. When it became clear that the “elders” had NO intention of separating from SGM, we exited with NO intention of ever returning. The “elders” wanted us to stay and continue in “dialog”. What was the point? We were at an impasse and utterly disappointed and disgusted with their refusal to hold the power structure at the top responsible. In my estimation these “elders” are equally responsible for propping up this biblically (TM) disqualified bunch of hirelings. From the local “elders” to those in leadership at the regional and national level have disqualified themselves as ministers of the gospel as have so many before them (e.g., Bakker, Swaggart, Tchvidjian, Gothard, Duggar, and others).

    BTW, why does SGC retain the baptist sr. pastor and “church” in their “family of churches?” From the size of SGC Louisville, it doesn’t stand to reason that a whole lot of money finds its way back into the “family’s” coffer.

  16. “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, ‘The LORD does not see us’ … Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.” (Ezekiel 8)

    American Christianity will be amazed when the New Calvinism bubble breaks and its Together for Calvinism elite fall from grace. God sees the deception and will have His day when He breaks the blood pact of the New Calvinist leaders who have taken a generation astray into the aberrations of reformed theology.

  17. There is a long term pattern out of SGM of very sick behavior from the leaders. They are either stupid or totally corrupt.

    This one was so obvious I am wondering what on earth was going on for them to ignore it. Just by Todd’s review we can see this guy is most likely sociopathic.

    Was he so much like the leadership he fit right in….the whole cheesy sinner/love shitck we saw in SGM wiki leaks?

    That place was/is a shepherding cult. Al Mohler and Mark Dever promote shepherding cults. Hello SBC!!!

    My other thought is some celebs think they are so important that if they rally around one of their own and pretend they are innocent that will keep working no matter what comes out. The Neo Cals are showing us their true colors over and over. So many young men corrupted.
    So many leaders with delusions of grandeur.

    So many children tortured and hurt.

  18. dee wrote:

    There was a pastor who did. That pastor, if not CJ, was answerable to him. CJ gets no write off from me. Real leaders take responsibility which is not what I have even seen from CJ.

    I don’t disagree. It is just harder to nail down a Neo-Calvinist bro-dude in an argument with that separation. CJ at al are slippier than a freshly minted cow pie…and smell worse when it comes to these situations.

  19. Unbelievable. No normal man would ever be afraid he was going to molest his daughter and no normal person would think it was normal for a man to have that fear. Is this church some kind of covert club for perverts? Maybe they are giving off some kind of vibes?

    I find it impossible to believe that a man who molests his daughter gives his son a normal upbringing. No way. The type of abuse may have differed, but there is no way that all of his children were not subject to some kind of abuse.

    This guy had red flags sticking out all over him. You have to be blind to miss that.

    Also, his language in those passages is not convincing at all that he is actually a born-again believer.

  20. @ Divorce Minister:
    You will never win an argument with a Neo Cal dude bro. If Mohler and Dever shared a stage with him, he must be OK. Never ever imagine the rank and file young men of T$G are independent thinkers. They are immersed in cult of personality.

  21. Lydia wrote:

    They are immersed in cult of personality.

    I’ve read the comments but I just can’t read the blog post yet, I need to give my brain a short break from this topic. I’ve just finished reading a book by Kathy Marks, “Pitcairn, Paradise Lost: Uncovering the dark secrets of a South Pacific fantasy island”. The book could be aptly titled “Pitcairn: A Paedophile Lord of the Flies Paradise”. It has all the hallmarks of every child abuse situation that has been dealt with here on TWW – ignoring/blaming/minimising the victims, justifying behaviour, the silence/consent of older women to what was happening, and abuse by people in powerful positions. There were a few bright lights, one of them being the poor policewoman from Kent who did her job, another the victim ‘Belinda’ who reported and stayed steadfast at great personal cost. Etc. I apologise if I’m using the word ‘victim’ too loosely. This is a pretty extreme example, over generations, but one thing really stood out to me – how boys looked up to their fathers for an example to follow, and “the power of the pack” – how this behaviour became normalised in the peer group. This is the legacy of the ‘cult of personality’ of Fletcher Christian.

    Last bit of my rant and I’ll close – nowhere did the (now) women receive compensation. I believe there should have been substantial reparation paid by the perpetrators. Instead the convicted Pitcairn men (and there was much slippage through the net) received light sentences in comfortable surroundings and it was treated as a bit of a joke by the ‘inmates’ and their numerous supporters who lauded them. This completely dishonoured the legal process which the victims had to undertake, retraumatising them. How has our justice system in the western world moved so far away from compensating victims? I want to see the hip pockets of perpetrators really hurt, because nothing else seems to make much of a dent.

  22. Mercy’s Mama wrote:

    Just when you think you’ve heard it all…so incredibly sad for these children and the many people who systematically fail them. My heart aches, God have mercy.
    As a wife and mother, I literally cannot fathom reading those things in my husband’s book and not running 110 mph in the opposite direction :/ I’m glad that she turned him in, under whatever circumstances.

    Yes, glad that she turned him in. I am confused about how widely spread the book was distributed. Should we assume the wife read it? Was it published privately or publicly? If the mother did read the book, there will be a lot of work to do in that relationship with her daughter. If she read it but a pastor read it and seemed to approve and not express concern, I wonder if that influenced her. Who was in charge of children’s ministry during this time? This book was republished after the sexual abuse scandal broke, right? You would think they would gave been hypersensitive to child security at that point.

  23. Lydia wrote:

    Never ever imagine the rank and file young men of T$G are independent thinkers. They are immersed in cult of personality.

    Amen! And that breaks my heart. So many otherwise promising young Christians have fallen into New Calvinism’s snare. They feed on Piper Points, Mohler Moments, and Driscoll Drivel, rather than getting alone with God for a season to pray for the Holy Spirit to lead them into Truth. They have settled for the counterfeit and are missing the genuine. The New Calvinist noise swirling in their spirit has silenced the small still voice.

  24. According to the date given for the daughter’s birthday and the start of the abuse, the sexual abuse started on the child’s 5th birthday.

    Let that sink in.

    It continued until she was 15 by the dates in the documents.

  25. The Roman Catholic church, Anglicans, pedophile ring in England, shared child pornography… does it seem like a pattern that pedophiles seem to have connections with other pedophiles and enablers of pedophiles? The enablers of pedophiles are every bit as creepy and evil as the pedophiles. I think that these connections with other criminals are more pervasive that we are beginning to discover.

  26. Abi Miah wrote:

    Yes, glad that she turned him in. I am confused about how widely spread the book was distributed. Should we assume the wife read it? Was it published privately or publicly? If the mother did read the book, there will be a lot of work to do in that relationship with her daughter. If she read it but a pastor read it and seemed to approve and not express concern, I wonder if that influenced her. Who was in charge of children’s ministry during this time?

    I would think wife number two read the book. If you read between the lines of Caffery’s book you can sense much is wrong with him. Wife number one plotted to leave with her remaining 2 sons for quite some time. She and her two sons one had died from cancer. Caffery initially refused to let him get treatment, insisting on praying for his healing. The day the son died Caffery was playing the tourist with some relatives! He said it was God’s will that he wasn’t there to see him die! People from the church helped the wife and kids move without Caffery’s knowledge.

    Caffery’s step-son, the son of wife number two, did not care for Caffery at all. Caffery said this was because after he remarried he insisted on removing his step-son from public school and placing him in a Christian school. He also admitted that he and the step-son had different expectations. The step-son had hoped for somebody to play sports with him and Caffery saw the relationship as one where he was to teach the child how to be a responsible person. Wife number two almost divorced Caffery, they separated for one year. Caffery later said that his step-son was happier when he lived alone with his mother, most likely because he had more freedom. After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest. He died later in the hospital. Caffery recalls holding the boy and asking him why he did this, to which the boy could only manage to respond with some unintelligible sound. Then Caffery told him to go and be with Jesus. Caffery never speaks of how this affected his wife, but it must have shattered her life. Pure conjecture here, but I would guess Caffery was abusing this boy. If so, can you imagine the horrors he went through? And as he lay dying his tormentor is the last person he sees! Caffery mentions that it took the ambulance a very long time to respond to their call. He went outside and saw them waiting at the end of the street. Supposedly they had to wait for police to get to the scene first and declare that it was safe for the medical personnel to enter the house. Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but if it were me I would have immediately put the child in my car and raced to the nearest ER. But there are just so many things in this book that don’t make logical sense.

  27. Haitch wrote:

    Last bit of my rant and I’ll close – nowhere did the (now) women receive compensation. I believe there should have been substantial reparation paid by the perpetrators.

    Rest assured Haitch, the dynamic which bankrupted many a Catholic Diocese here in the States, is the same one that will put many high-profile Calvinista regimes out of business. It’s really just a question of time. The courts are rapidly losing their squeamishness when it comes to going after big-name Protestant shamans. The days when it was just those awful ‘Romish Papists’ are no more.

  28. @ Divorce Minister:
    Of course they knew. The place was never *that* big, not like contemporary megachurches.

    Re. Brent Detweiler’s constant use of full given names in these cases… that is wrong. Just plain wrong.

  29. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but if it were me I would have immediately put the child in my car and raced to the nearest ER.

    That’s because you’re not one of God’s Predestined Elect.

  30. dee wrote:

    @ Deb:
    You mean they got some gold from the gold standard? Gotta keep the money rolling in so it could go rolling on out to CJ’s chosen fans.

    “Everybody’s got his price or a guy like me couldn’t exist.”
    — Some “captain of industry” in the last century

  31. Also if you are interested I did the analysis and results of the SE District of the Evangelical Free Church of America. If you live in Alabama, Puerto Rico, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Tennessee, North and South Carolina, Louisiana this will tell you where the EFCA is at with Neo-Calvinism.

    South Carolina is 100% Neo-Cal and Louisiana at this time is 0%

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/03/28/analyzing-the-growth-of-reformed-theologyneo-calvinism-in-the-evangelical-free-church-of-america-the-southeast-district/

  32. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest.

    Maybe I shouldn’t say this but I sure hope this was investigated thoroughly.

  33. siteseer wrote:

    This guy had red flags sticking out all over him. You have to be blind to miss that.

    They weren’t blind, they did see the red flags with Caffery. One “pastor” at CLC suggested Caffery eliminate the red flags from his autobiography if it were reprinted.

    The leaders at CLC loudly proclaimed they had changed and left the past behind. This revelation gives the lie to those assertions. They are still in damage control and now they have another mess to coverup. I’m sure they are up to the task, they have a lot of experience.

  34. mirele wrote:

    First and foremost, though, I am of the opinion that CLC needs to be held to account in a very public way.
    .

    And I think CLC needs to be razed to the ground, & the site sown with salt.
    I don’t usually run around looking for demons behind every shrub, but from what I’ve learned about this place, it sounds like the devil is in total & utter control.

    (Time for a few deep breaths & a prayer to lower my blood pressure).

  35. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    Sociopath. The dead giveaway? “Caffery had to teach the stepson to be a responsible adult” instead of build a relationship with him. The fact that Caffery saw himself as capable of doing such after all that had transpired is typical.

    This man has been a walking human destroyer and used religion for cover. I hope they throw away the cell key. I am weary of these destroyers and their quest for control and attention.

  36. Janey wrote:

    That church attracted pedophiles.

    siteseer wrote:

    No normal man would ever be afraid he was going to molest his daughter and no normal person would think it was normal for a man to have that fear. Is this church some kind of covert club for perverts? Maybe they are giving off some kind of vibes?

    Janey wrote:

    That church attracted pedophiles.

    Like I said, above: demons. Whole place needs to be destroyed & exorcised.

  37. siteseer wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest.

    Maybe I shouldn’t say this but I sure hope this was investigated thoroughly.

    What I was thinking, too.

  38. Muff Potter wrote:

    The days when it was just those awful ‘Romish Papists’ are no more.

    I’m very mindful of what I think may be “Boz” Tchividjian’s thoughts – that the problem is as big if not bigger in the Protestant churches.

    FYI: Was just looking up the correct spelling of Boz’s last name, and I noticed he has a blog, one that’s strongly focused on abuse survivors. http://boz.religionnews.com/

  39. Last night, I posted the following on SGMSurvivors…and will add that it’s clear that perverts targeted that church because they gave out ‘get out of jail free’ cards. If one guy had been brought up on charges and children protected, it’s likely the others might have turned tail and taken their sick perversions with them. But instead, at least one perp was glorified. So SGM became a perp magnet.
    ##
    “When reading the latest CLC alleged abuser story, a few things crossed my mind. It seemed clear on the police info that he is being accused of molesting a child from the date of his daughter’s fifth birthday to the last day of 2014. My heart aches for this child and her mother; Brent added a note to say he had been told the perp was turned in by his wife. Good for her — I can’t imagine what she is going through. I hope CLC gives her financial and spiritual help of the greatest kind.

    Anyone who read what looks to me like a narcissistic vanity-press book had to know that this man had a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing a daughter. In other words, he wanted / fantasized / pictured himself sexually abusing a young female. The idea that incestuous sexual abuse is completely different than other sex abuse, from what I have read, is nonsense. If family victims are available, it is much easier & more convenient to abuse them – and easier to control their silence. However, if family victims are not available, perps will look elsewhere.

    The fact that the pastors knew of this man’s temptation (what he called fear) but did not see it as a disqualification for working in children’s ministry is almost unbelievable. Either they were naive and uneducated enough to think that other females were safe because what he really wanted was incest; or they were just plain stupid enough to swallow the grace and mercy verbiage spouted and printed in the self-published cesspool of Narcissa. Publication of this book was nothing more than a manipulation tactic. “See what a great guy I am? I told you I had this perversion, but I have ‘pulled myself up by my bootstraps’ (guess the pastor/editors missed that blatant self-promoting statement) and have been cured. This’ll protect me in court.”

    This man did not have a daughter till 1999 when he was 49; and apparently began the abuse when she was around 5 years old. Yet he wrote years earlier that he had a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing a daughter. If I were a detective, I’d be wondering who he targeted prior to these charges, because 54 years is a long time to go before acting out on a perversion.

    You know, I have heard a lot of confessions from men — but never once have I heard a man say he had a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing a daughter. I haven’t spent any time in men’s locker rooms, but I’d be willing to bet that’s one that’s not often bandied about and if told, might get one punched where it hurts.

    Pastors, pay attention. If a guy ever tells you he has a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing his daughter, make sure all the children are safe, then reach for the phone and call a professional sex counselor. This is the highest and brightest red flag I have ever seen.

    Lord, help that poor child and her mother, and in Jesus name, please bring an end to the diabolical epidemic of sexual perversion. Amen.
    ##

  40. Abi Miah wrote:

    Was it published privately or publicly?

    Both PublishAmerica and Tate Publishers are self-publishing enterprises. From the website of Tate: “Our desire is to find new authors that desire to publish their work and partner with us to get their message to the people that need it most.”

    Self-publishing is not called ‘vanity press’ for nothing. Generally, the writer pays a publisher to print a certain number of copies, not the other way around. I’ve read one decent vanity press books, but most I’ve looked at are poorly written and not worth buying or reading. I’ve been burned several times thinking something would be a good read, then finding out about page 2 that it’s terrible.

    So, why would a guy who had a ‘fear of molesting a daughter’ tell that to anyone, much less publish his own book about it? If you ask me, it’s all a smokescreen.

    I’d be surprised if any of the pastors actually read the whole book, because the few sentences I saw made me think it’s a tedious read. But all they needed to know was in the one sentence that mentioned ‘fear of abusing a daughter.’

    You know, most of us were born in the dark but it wasn’t last night. I’m beginning to think these inept pastors must’ve just fallen off the turnip truck. They have fouled up too many lives. If you’re in a church that doesn’t take molestation seriously, run away as fast as you can.

  41. I woke up this morning still thinking: this STARTED ON HER 5th BIRTHDAY===and went on for another almost 11 years–till New Year’s Eve. Perhaps the dates are bookends and were not the actual dates. Perhaps the daughter simply remembers that she was 5 but not the start date. But what if it was her birthday? That makes it even more twisted and it’s already twisted.

  42. Haitch wrote:

    Ann wrote:
    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
    Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

    Haitch wrote:

    Ann wrote:
    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
    Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

    Yes! They do. My husband, a pastor, immediately contacted the police when he was told someone’s tragic story. It did not go well with his superior and after some time he was asked to leave. It was a horribly painful time but we learned a great deal. We have a new church currently and while we want to be a place of mercy and grace we will not risk endangering others (God help us!). Two separate people with sex offense charges have come and gone from our new church due to what my pastor (husband) required of them. This was a clear sign that these offenses were not “just in the past.” I only tell you this so you might find some encouragement that there are good men and women in “leadership” in spiritual communities.

  43. Pedophilia is a psychopathic compulsion with a high rate of recidivism. Many are at high risk to reoffend even after prison mandated sexual abuser counselling. If the professionals are at a loss to help then it’s safe to say that most (if not all) pastors are woefully under equipped to “cure” an offender.
    I think I’ve said this before, there are sins and then there are sins. I got busted for petty vandalism as a teen. The police were involved, my parents were involved. The victim (a public school) declined to press charges as long I did “community service” for them (cleaning, yard work etc), which I did, after school for the entire fall. That was a sin that I paid for. However, I did not have a compulsion to commit vandalism and pretty much turned my life around. These churches would equate this to be the same as pedophilia.
    All institutions where children are accessible are at risk. (sports teams, daycare centres, schools, churches). One of the takeaway lessons from this post is to check what abuse prevention protocols and policies are in place at your church. Are staff trained to look for abuse? Are there criminal checks in place for those directly supervising children (or for that matter any vulnerable attendee)?
    One must always remember pedophilia = compulsion. A church rooted in reality would know this and take appropriate steps to protect their own.

  44. Jack wrote:

    One must always remember pedophilia = compulsion. A church rooted in reality would know this and take appropriate steps to protect their own.

    Awesome comment!!!!

  45. How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? Amy Smith kept hammering him about his support of Mahaney, and wouldn’t let up. Boy, did he dodge like a pro. Gregory Hines should tap dance like that.

    https://twitter.com/watchkeep/status/714590881207062528

    How can anyone so clueless call himself a leader of anything, let alone a church?

  46. lifelongfling wrote:

    My husband, a pastor, immediately contacted the police when he was told someone’s tragic story. It did not go well with his superior and after some time he was asked to leave. It was a horribly painful time but we learned a great deal. We have a new church currently and while we want to be a place of mercy and grace we will not risk endangering others (God help us!). Two separate people with sex offense charges have come and gone from our new church due to what my pastor (husband) required of them. This was a clear sign that these offenses were not “just in the past.”

    Thank you for standing up for truth. Your story is so helpful. Would you be willing to tell it, even anonymously as a post?

  47. Jack wrote:

    All institutions where children are accessible are at risk. (sports teams, daycare centres, schools, churches). One of the takeaway lessons from this post is to check what abuse prevention protocols and policies are in place at your church. Are staff trained to look for abuse? Are there criminal checks in place for those directly supervising children (or for that matter any vulnerable attendee)?

    Great reminder of what action church members (and leaders!) can do from here on out.
    Of note: most churches may have a policy for kids while in children’s ministry – but that protects the kids ONLY for one hour per week while in that Sunday class – people should DEMAND that there is a policy to immediately involve police when there is ANY report of abuse. Much of the sexual abuse perpetrated by CLC members happened in homes or other places during “the life of the church”. That is way too big a loop-hole!

  48. siteseer wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:
    After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest.

    Maybe I shouldn’t say this but I sure hope this was investigated thoroughly.

    Or did PASTOR pull strings to protect his Pet Pedo?
    (It’s been done in the past. Over and over.)
    (Helps if PASTOR has made sure he’s a Police Chaplain and under Code of Blue…)

  49. “Or, do they not give a damn about the lives of children?”

    It pains me, but I think it’s this one. They do not give a damn. NOBODY who did would let someone who put, in writing!, that they were afraid they might abuse their own child in charge of children. Insanity.

  50. Lifelongfling, I would have to say based on your husbands position and whatever he required of those men this would be a church I would want to attend! Good for him and I wish there were more men like him. That’s a man with character, integrity, and a man who is a tree planted that will not whither away or move to and fro….. thank you for sharing that and please thank your husband for me as he put the welfare of his members above himself. I am asking Ken Ramey to do the same! Billy has yet to receive an apology much less an acknowledgement that he is a victim of the crime of Rape and rape has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality! We need to continually call these men out who harbor abusers and lift up the ones who don’t! Obviously this pastor required more of these men who were offenders not just to protect the little ones but I would dare say that if your truly repentant then these men would welcome additional checks because of the gravity of the crime and level of trust where one has the awesome responsibility of looking out for families and their children. @ Divorce Minister:
    lifelongfling wrote:

    Haitch wrote:

    Ann wrote:
    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
    Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

    Haitch wrote:

    Ann wrote:
    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
    Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

    Yes! They do. My husband, a pastor, immediately contacted the police when he was told someone’s tragic story. It did not go well with his superior and after some time he was asked to leave. It was a horribly painful time but we learned a great deal. We have a new church currently and while we want to be a place of mercy and grace we will not risk endangering others (God help us!). Two separate people with sex offense charges have come and gone from our new church due to what my pastor (husband) required of them. This was a clear sign that these offenses were not “just in the past.” I only tell you this so you might find some encouragement that there are good men and women in “leadership” in spiritual communities.

  51. What??? His stepson shot himself? ?? Oh myyyy tears right now. He was just a baby at 12 years old. I pray that this man never touched that boy. What was the mother thinking at the time I wonder if she saw any red flags? I’m sorry I don’t mean to judge but you will know a relationship isn’t right if your child is at odds with the man your dating /marrying. It’s obvious this boy did not like him. I have to say that remarriage and dating is for some but not all when you have children. For me and Billy it’s not even an option and I place that decision as God giving me peace in being single and focused on billy. I pray that this mother finds peace and comfort I can’t even imagine what this has done to her. To many children are falling prey to these animals and it is only God we attribute their healing if they can heal from it. We need to be better stewards of our children and pastors better wake up because they will soon find their churches dried up and pockets empty for being poor stewards of Gods children. Pastors become like the wolves when money and filled church pews are placed above Gods children. Remember God loves the church that He gave Himself up for her and I don’t believe He is happy when the little ones and the vulnerable are allowed to be picked off! Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Abi Miah wrote:

    Yes, glad that she turned him in. I am confused about how widely spread the book was distributed. Should we assume the wife read it? Was it published privately or publicly? If the mother did read the book, there will be a lot of work to do in that relationship with her daughter. If she read it but a pastor read it and seemed to approve and not express concern, I wonder if that influenced her. Who was in charge of children’s ministry during this time?

    I would think wife number two read the book. If you read between the lines of Caffery’s book you can sense much is wrong with him. Wife number one plotted to leave with her remaining 2 sons for quite some time. She and her two sons one had died from cancer. Caffery initially refused to let him get treatment, insisting on praying for his healing. The day the son died Caffery was playing the tourist with some relatives! He said it was God’s will that he wasn’t there to see him die! People from the church helped the wife and kids move without Caffery’s knowledge.

    Caffery’s step-son, the son of wife number two, did not care for Caffery at all. Caffery said this was because after he remarried he insisted on removing his step-son from public school and placing him in a Christian school. He also admitted that he and the step-son had different expectations. The step-son had hoped for somebody to play sports with him and Caffery saw the relationship as one where he was to teach the child how to be a responsible person. Wife number two almost divorced Caffery, they separated for one year. Caffery later said that his step-son was happier when he lived alone with his mother, most likely because he had more freedom. After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest. He died later in the hospital. Caffery recalls holding the boy and asking him why he did this, to which the boy could only manage to respond with some unintelligible sound. Then Caffery told him to go and be with Jesus. Caffery never speaks of how this affected his wife, but it must have shattered her life. Pure conjecture here, but I would guess Caffery was abusing this boy. If so, can you imagine the horrors he went through? And as he lay dying his tormentor is the last person he sees! Caffery mentions that it took the ambulance a very long time to respond to their call. He went outside and saw them waiting at the end of the street. Supposedly they had to wait for police to get to the scene first and declare that it was safe for the medical personnel to enter the house. Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but if it were me I would have immediately put the child in my car and raced to the nearest ER. But there are just so many things in this book that don’t make logical sense.

  52. Ann wrote:

    Brent updated and said the wife did turn him in. She and her kids will need a lot of support.
    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???

    Oh, but it’s women who are easily deceived! Obviously. *eyeroll*

    These people do know that “Pride” is a sin too, right?

  53. Anybody watch Grantchester on Masterpiece? one vicar preaches a snippet of a sermon we all need to hear and another vicar is protected by his superiors for immoral behavior with an underage a girl.

  54. This example demonstrates the fig leaf of legal deniability background checks give churches. The majority of paedophiles don’t have a record that would exclude them from serving in children’s ministry. That is why it is so important that church staff have discernment, common sense, and and eyes wide open observation of volunteers in youth and children’s ministry.

    It is incredible to me that this man would be allowed to participate in children’s ministry.

    It is incredible to me that staff having counseled this person did not have some kind of accountability system after the daughter was born.

    It is incredible to me that this guy would not be referred to a specialist for a full psych workup and treatment.

    The fundamental problem is the view among many of the clergy is that whenever a penis gets in proximity of any orifice, it is a sin and not a crime.

  55. “Just what is it about Covenant Life Church, CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries that seems to attract accusation after accusation of child sex abuse?”

    Dee, I faithfully continue to execute my assignment of investigating complementarian thought among 20-somethings. I have some theories:

    Theory 1 – Predators recognize (correctly) that their claims of being the special church, the different church, the real, gospel-centered, and healthy church, taken to lengths of being their entire raison d’être, as just self declared bloviating and see long in advance and that they won’t admit their mistake of letting the predator in.

    Theory 2 – Did you know that James 3:15 says that knowledge not from scripture is demonic? John Piperists love showing off their godliness by showing off just how much they don’t believe in ideas except as universal by most people. See: John Piper’s finger wagging on “self reliance”. So if you’re a predator, wouldn’t you recognize that the age of consent is just demonic deception? After all, lots of young brides in the Bible.

    Theory 3 – In a modern urban environment, the only women who behave with the biblical submission they expect and consider themselves entitled to, are actually children.

    Theory 4 – All of the above

  56. Stan wrote:

    “Theory 2 – Did you know that James 3:15 says that knowledge not from scripture is demonic?

    What????

    I think they should be reading the verses before and after…

    “14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.…”

  57. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    It is really hard for someone to shoot himself in the chest with a shotgun. I hope there was a full investigation.

    My heart aches for that poor boy, the other children and stepchildren, and the two wives.

    And we know all too well the inadequate and incorrect counsel and advice the wives would have been given at the hands of pastors who couldn’t see ‘fear of molesting a daughter’ as a major problem.

  58. Jack wrote:

    All institutions where children are accessible are at risk. (sports teams, daycare centres, schools, churches). One of the takeaway lessons from this post is to check what abuse prevention protocols and policies are in place at your church. Are staff trained to look for abuse? Are there criminal checks in place for those directly supervising children (or for that matter any vulnerable attendee)?
    One must always remember pedophilia = compulsion. A church rooted in reality would know this and take appropriate steps to protect their own.

    Criminal checks are necessary as they catch the tiny minority that have been caught. The problem is, they give a sense of false security because most abusers have not been caught. In Cafferty’s case, as far as we know, he would have come out clean as a whistle on a criminal check as far as sexual offense goes. There needs to be a much more comprehensive system in place to protect children even while at church. And as was pointed out, this does nothing to protect children off premises. How many parents do you know who have asked the volunteer teaching Sunday school to babysit for instance? That is parents’ naivete. (It’s an amplification of the general parental naivete about babysitters and their ability to discern who is and is not safe. Asking a church volunteer to babysit seems even more safe than the next door neighbor. That’s a false assumption, but one many parents make.)

    My mind is still spinning that he wrote and published a book twice saying that he was at risk to sexually abuse children (Not in those words, but that is what he was saying.) Yet, it still went on for 10-11 years and was never caught (that we know of at this point.)

    His statements in the book may have been a narcissist showing off: “See what I can get away with. I can even tell you and still get away with it.” OR it may have been a desperate cry for help which no one heard or knew how to respond to. It is a painful cry to hear because we are so helpless to help and much easier to let it pass and pretend that it really wasn’t a real plea. The best response would have been to have made sure he was in therapy with someone specializing in sexual offense. One aspect of a church culture that can promote a culture conducive to abuse or inhibit it is the church’s belief in whether secular counseling has something to offer or not. A pedophile will experience more freedom to operate at a church where “secular counseling” is thought to have nothing to offer than at a church that believes modern psychology has insights of benefit.

  59. Lydia wrote:

    Anybody watch Grantchester on Masterpiece? one vicar preaches a snippet of a sermon we all need to hear and another vicar is protected by his superiors for immoral behavior with an underage a girl.

    I watched that episode last night and was struck by the timeliness of it.

  60. Headless,
    Your comment about Thabiti was completely uncalled for. There is enough suffering and pain surrounding this issue, do you really have to bring in another painful and volatile subject? Not cool and certainly not helpful.

    I hope every parent who had a child in CM during those years starts asking their child some very crucial questions. It can take years for a child to admit to abuse, we know this first hand.

  61. I think if Thabiti is a,supporter of C.J. mahaney in any way he needs to be asked those tough questions including any other pastor who supports mahaney. @ Divorce Minister:
    Happymom wrote:

    Headless,
    Your comment about Thabiti was completely uncalled for. There is enough suffering and pain surrounding this issue, do you really have to bring in another painful and volatile subject? Not cool and certainly not helpful.

    I hope every parent who had a child in CM during those years starts asking their child some very crucial questions. It can take years for a child to admit to abuse, we know this first hand.

  62. Nickname wrote:

    So, why would a guy who had a ‘fear of molesting a daughter’ tell that to anyone, much less publish his own book about it? If you ask me, it’s all a smokescreen.

    When I read that God answered his prayers by giving him 3 sons, my first response was cynicism. After all, I can go to Vegas and pray to win, and I might get lucky 3 or 4 times and thank God, but eventually, if I keep on playing, the house will ALWAYS win no matter how hard I pray.
    But then I read this, “We both thought it would be nice to have a daughter, and that it would be good for Sean also. We didn’t use birth control and just left the situation up to God. One year later God did bless us with a beautiful daughter.”
    So something changed, and he went from praying in fear and trembling that he not be led into temptation– to thinking it would be nice, and just leaving the situation up to God. Of course there’s no way to tell just how much SGM teaching was responsible for this change…

  63. Marquis,
    I have no problem asking questions of any of CJ’s supporters, but referring to him as the token black is completely unnecessary. How can we expect dialogue when we start out with that?

  64. Oh I missed that. I misunderstood your comment, sorry about that. @ Divorce Minister:
    Happymom wrote:

    Marquis,
    I have no problem asking questions of any of CJ’s supporters, but referring to him as the token black is completely unnecessary. How can we expect dialogue when we start out with that?

  65. A close friend of mine told me that if she gad little children, she wouldn’t put them in children’s church knowing the things she knows about how few of the churches have policies about sex offenders. I have to say I agree with her.

  66. When your only concern is yourself and your own personal glory its extremely easy to overlook other people.

  67. @ Lea:

    Yup, I’ve heard this perversion of Scripture before.

    @ Happymom:

    I will agree that HUG went to far, but to be the devil’s advocate, there is a noticeable pattern of these churches that are mostly interested in the richest, whitest parts of town having just one.

    http://www.thevillagechurch.net/about/staff/#group_executive-team

    About Thabiti, imagine an executive of Volkswagen saying that their critics don’t have enough of a charitable tone, the person in charge of emissions testing is his super good friend, and he has other really important stuff going on so he’s not going to do anything. I learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption. I think this pearl clutching and shrieking aversion to the basic tenets of professional ethics is what repulses men from church, and not the lack of übermen like *Pastor* Mark Driscoll and John Piper to look up to.

    But of course, professional ethics is just demonic and unspiritual.

  68. I wouldn’t even let my child run around the church knowing what I know now. Read about SGM and how children were abused in plane sight in the hallways, empty classrooms. Abuse was going on at sleep overs in homes of Christian families. @ Divorce Minister:
    Harley wrote:

    A close friend of mine told me that if she gad little children, she wouldn’t put them in children’s church knowing the things she knows about how few of the churches have policies about sex offenders. I have to say I agree with her.

  69. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher UNITED STATES

  70. Nickname wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Anybody watch Grantchester on Masterpiece? one vicar preaches a snippet of a sermon we all need to hear and another vicar is protected by his superiors for immoral behavior with an underage a girl.
    I watched that episode last night and was struck by the timeliness of it.

    Me too!

  71. Abi Miah wrote:

    Criminal checks are necessary as they catch the tiny minority that have been caught. The problem is, they give a sense of false security because most abusers have not been caught. In Cafferty’s case, as far as we know, he would have come out clean as a whistle on a criminal check as far as sexual offense goes.

    Exactly. Another deterrent that might work is a zero tolerance policy that would freak any potential predator out. A policy that declares: you won’t be able to leave quietly. We will not only call the police but make it known to all.

    The zero tolerance policy is what made Christian Academy dump CJs new church plant after he fled Maryland…. right away. As a school with very involved parents who are not zombies in shepherding cults…..they could not take any chances or be tainted by it.

  72. Abi Miah wrote:

    His statements in the book may have been a narcissist showing off: “See what I can get away with. I can even tell you and still get away w

    A twisted “humble brag” of sorts. Very CJ-ish

  73. Stan wrote:

    I learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption. I think this pearl clutching and shrieking aversion to the basic tenets of professional ethics is what repulses men from church

    Bingo!

  74. Stan wrote:

    But of course, professional ethics is just demonic and unspiritual.

    Professional ethics are also works salvation and those who practice them are self righteous.

    :o)

  75. KAZ_Few wrote:

    When your only concern is yourself and your own personal glory its extremely easy to overlook other people.

    Other people than MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE actually exist?

  76. Stan wrote:

    @ LI learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption.

    I’m interested in this concept but a bit confused. For instance, if everything was above board, but someone perceived that it was not, why would that be corrupt? Could you flesh it out a bit? (I’m not debating; I’m curious and trying to understand more.)

  77. What is wrong with that church that they attract so many abusers?! Do they have radio ads or something on secret pedophile channels??
    “Hey You! Are you an unremitting child sexual abuser? Do you need easy access to victims and a sense of security that you won’t get arrested? Well Covenant Life Church is the place for you! With just a few pious words and emotional testimony you can become a Youth Minister and have access to all the children you desire! And if you get caught – no problem! The rapist-friendly leadership team will be there to cover up your crime and harass your victims and their families into silence. Join Today!”

  78. Stan wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Yup, I’ve heard this perversion of Scripture before.
    @ Happymom:
    I will agree that HUG went to far, but to be the devil’s advocate, there is a noticeable pattern of these churches that are mostly interested in the richest, whitest parts of town having just one.
    http://www.thevillagechurch.net/about/staff/#group_executive-team
    About Thabiti, imagine an executive of Volkswagen saying that their critics don’t have enough of a charitable tone, the person in charge of emissions testing is his super good friend, and he has other really important stuff going on so he’s not going to do anything. I learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption. I think this pearl clutching and shrieking aversion to the basic tenets of professional ethics is what repulses men from church, and not the lack of übermen like *Pastor* Mark Driscoll and John Piper to look up to.
    But of course, professional ethics is just demonic and unspiritual.

    Ironically, standing up for justice is really being a “uberman”…. It takes more guts to stand up to a crisis, not run away like Driscoll did, or try to distance themselves from Driscoll like all of the other good old boys did..

  79. Stan wrote:

    I learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption.

    You did what? What kind of profession were you preparing for that taught that? Or maybe you a joking?

  80. Well, here is the latest update. I still have not gotten an interview. I tried to donate plasma (it pays $50 per time), but the presence of the tumor made me ineligible to donate. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t scared. My rent ($565) is due Friday (4/1) and I am $135 past due on my March bills. Plus still need $450 for April bills plus need money for gas and food. So many of you have already been so generous and I am very grateful. Any additional help would be a godsend. Thank you.

  81. Happymom wrote:

    I have no problem asking questions of any of CJ’s supporters, but referring to him as the token black is completely unnecessary.

    He used that wording to show their corrupt mentality. Unfortunately, there is a pattern of unsavory and un-Christ like thinking and activity in the neo-Cal movement.

  82. Dee –

    I am curious as to how (and for what) T4G honored CJ. Did I miss that in the article?

  83. Bridget

    By allowing him to speak after he dropped out of the 2014 conference is an honor for Mahaney. They are showing everyone that he is an honored T4G teacher/leader.

  84. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is this Thabiti guy the token black among the Big Dogs at the top?

    When you consider all those white Southern men in the pic, their ages, and the cultural milieu they grew up in, I think we can safely say yes. But give em’ some credit, at least they realize they have to progress beyond the racial mores which dominated the 1st half of the last century.

  85. I’m a civil engineer and I took Engineering Ethics, I promise, I think I got an A 🙂

    Maybe I tried to explain an abstract concept to succinctly. We were taught to take responsibility for what we may do to create the perception of corruption, even if criticisms are unfair and agendaed. Or, even be proactive about it.

    I used to live in a city that voted down red light cameras. The cameras recorded violations for rolling stops at right turns on red. Now, that is not going to create the same kind of disastrous t bone as someone speeding through a red. The City wouldn’t stop recording the right turn violations, and thus it became harder to convince the public that the cameras were for safety and not money.

    I think Paul understood this when he said “above reproach” and “well thought of by outsiders”.

  86. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is this Thabiti guy the token black among the Big Dogs at the top?

    When you consider all those white Southern men in the pic, their ages, and the cultural milieu they grew up in, I think we can safely say yes. But give em’ some credit, at least they realize they have to progress beyond the racial mores which dominated the 1st half of the last century.

    This is what is so ironic about Russ Moore, former SBTS dean, now prez of ERLC. His big issue now is racism. He gets national media coverage on it. His big issue at SBTS was Patriarchy as comps are wimps. But he had no problem working at a place that named its new undergrad college after the confederate pro chattle slaver, Boyce, in 1994!

    Me thinks he is an opportunist making a name for himself while trying to help reimage the Neo Cal movement.

  87. Stan wrote:

    I’m a civil engineer and I took Engineering Ethics, I promise, I think I got an A
    Maybe I tried to explain an abstract concept to succinctly. We were taught to take responsibility for what we may do to create the perception of corruption, even if criticisms are unfair and agendaed. Or, even be proactive about it.
    I used to live in a city that voted down red light cameras. The cameras recorded violations for rolling stops at right turns on red. Now, that is not going to create the same kind of disastrous t bone as someone speeding through a red. The City wouldn’t stop recording the right turn violations, and thus it became harder to convince the public that the cameras were for safety and not money.
    I think Paul understood this when he said “above reproach” and “well thought of by outsiders”.

    Thanks for the explanation. That helps me understand it.

  88. @ Max:
    I hate abuse. I do. And I think there’s plenty of awful things that come out of this movement just like there’s plenty of awful things that have come out of home schooling or the prosperity gospel movement and many things like that.

    I know that this is an unpopular opinion around here but I don’t think that Calvinism is the enemy any more than a Calvinist can say Armenianism is the enemy (and I say the same to my friends who are Calvinists). The enemy is sin, plain and simple. The enemy is Satan, the father of lies. The enemy is unbelief and deception and wicked, wicked sin.

    I know plenty of godly Calvinists just like I know plenty of godly Catholics and plenty of godly non-Calvinists. Perhaps it is a result of going to a Bible college that emphasized unity, but I hope that we focus on the real enemy here and pray for repentance of our brothers and sisters who are blinded by their sin as well.

    May Jesus comfort you (the mom and daughter) both. I dealt with something similar this week and am praying for you.

  89. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Other people than MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE actually exist?

    HUG, people other than MEEEEEEEEEEEE do actually exist. However, those other people exist only for the sole purpose of serving MEEEEEEEEEEE!

  90. Stan wrote:

    I used to live in a city that voted down red light cameras. The cameras recorded violations for rolling stops at right turns on red. Now, that is not going to create the same kind of disastrous t bone as someone speeding through a red. The City wouldn’t stop recording the right turn violations, and thus it became harder to convince the public that the cameras were for safety and not money.

    Some years ago, an investigative reporter team (in Britain?) posed as an acquisition team for a police department soliciting for a red light camera contractor. According to the story, the pitch of EVERY red light camera contractor was “Revenue Enhancement”; the actual sales pitch quoted was “This will be like having a cop at every intersection writing tickets 24/7, without ever having to go off duty or take a break — the money will come in in buckets!”

  91. patriciamc wrote:

    He used that wording to show their corrupt mentality.

    I have found through experience that selecting words for maximum impact is often necessary to make the point. Cuts right through the “Stay SWEET” mentality.

    Of course, growing up with an Oh-So-POLITE Sociopath in my immediate family probably had a lot to do with it, too. You HAD to exaggerate and go for maximum impact or you would be completely Ignored (“That’s Nice…”).

  92. Sarah wrote:

    The enemy is sin, plain and simple. The enemy is Satan, the father of lies.

    Amen Sarah! Sin and its consequences are at the heart of the problem in the American church. Satan has been out and about to deceive the elect. At the core of New Calvinist belief and practice (not old Calvinism) is a tendency to accept things within its ranks that mainline Christianity would not tolerate. TWW has been reporting a steady stream of sins within New Calvinism. It is a belief system that will lead to antinomianism if not curtailed soon.

  93. dee wrote:

    Bridget

    By allowing him to speak after he dropped out of the 2014 conference is an honor for Mahaney. They are showing everyone that he is an honored T4G teacher/leader.

    And so HUMBLE (chuckle chuckle).

  94. Sarah wrote:

    The enemy is sin, plain and simple. The enemy is Satan, the father of lies. The enemy is unbelief and deception and wicked, wicked sin.

    Sarah, that sounds like a preacher’s platitudes.

    What is important (and specific) is that this Neo-Calvinism (more Calvinist than Calvin) seems to attract a LOT of this kind of corruption, attitude, and “wicked wicked sin”. Why is that? Is there something in Calvinism that pulls corrupt types to it? Is there something insidious and corrupting about their Correct Doctrine(TM)? Is it the ego-stroking of being The Elect? Is it the comforting fatalism (and “Not my fault!” excuse machine) of Utter Predestination? Is it the Mass Movement angle of being The Coming Wave?

    On the other side of the world, Islam is having some BIG problems. Years ago, a contact of mine in Louisville observed the same symptoms in a Calvinist church he explored as are associated with the types of Islam getting in the news today.

  95. Beakerj wrote:

    CLC are total screaming morons who should be in charge of no-one & nothing.

    But they understand POWER and how to climb to the top.

  96. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Well, here is the latest update. I still have not gotten an interview. I tried to donate plasma (it pays $50 per time), but the presence of the tumor made me ineligible to donate. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t scared. My rent ($565) is due Friday (4/1) and I am $135 past due on my March bills. Plus still need $450 for April bills plus need money for gas and food. So many of you have already been so generous and I am very grateful. Any additional help would be a godsend. Thank you.

    DEB, DEE! SINCE CHRISTINA PASSED ON THE GOFUNDME OFFER, LOOKS LIKE JEANETTE COULD USE ONE INSTEAD!

  97. @ Kimberly Rock-Shelton:

    “The fundamental problem is the view among many of the clergy is that whenever a penis gets in proximity of any orifice, it is a sin and not a crime.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    Yes, I agree. christian culture has a sin complex. sin sin sin sin sin. everything’s a sin: from being tired, to having PMS, to any feeling/emotion
    that isn’t emanating hearts and flowers, to raising your voice, to being uncomfortable around someone, to an honest mistake, to rape.

    it’s ridiculous — anything that doesn’t match up with the smiley and nice act everyone puts on on Sundays must be a sin. things like biology, wear-and-tear of life in general, and true boundary-crossing of crime don’t factor in.

    but one thing that’s never a sin: exploiting the non-profit tax code…. no, that’s never a sin.

  98. Max wrote:

    Amen Sarah! Sin and its consequences are at the heart of the problem in the American church. Satan has been out and about to deceive the elect. At the core of New Calvinist belief and practice (not old Calvinism) is a tendency to accept things within its ranks that mainline Christianity would not tolerate. TWW has been reporting a steady stream of sins within New Calvinism. It is a belief system that will lead to antinomianism if not curtailed soon.

    What would you (just curious) see as the difference between neo-Calvinism and traditional Calvinism?

    Headless Unicorn – not preacher’s platitudes, just Biblical truth. And I want anyone reading this to know that I do believe that there are sins that should be prosecuted as crimes, e.g. abuse of any kind. Just because I think the deepest enemy is sin doesn’t mean I think that it can be dealt with simply by prayer or some crap like that. The government does not weild the sword for nothing.

  99. Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    The majority of paedophiles don’t have a record that would exclude them from serving in children’s ministry

    But there would be a record, wouldn’t there be, if the first crime had been reported to law enforcement? Then the name would be in the database where, hopefully, church leaders would be conscientious enough to check prior to assigning a ministry.

  100. @ Bill M:
    You are so awesome! I called Shauna to let her know. She has been sick the last two days. She is going to write a comment when she gets back home. She is so excited. I am willing to help with the shipping, etc.

  101. Bill, thank you soooo much I can’t believe this. Billy is going to be excited what an incredible gift. Truly it’s God doing something. I can’t express how,deeply moved I am right now after getting off 5he phone with Dee. It’s all of you here. For almost 3 years I endured not just the assault on my child that night but the carnage left behind and a church (ken ramey, the elders (E) , deacons, and those I thought loved us) abandon billy at his darkest hour. As a mother I watched billy ask God why him and nor some other boy because of the nouthetic counseling he received at LBC. He wondered why God picked him and what he did was so bad to deserve to be raped! God has brought us here to find refuge, love, compassion, and a wonderful group of people who believe Billy and support him. What joy this has brought to my heart to know that you love billy and are caring for him in so many ways. I told dee that I still wish it wasn’t my billy and I at times want so bad to go back and save billy from that horror. I know this will never be possible and being here in the care of all of you has helped me cope with what we have been going through. Thank you and it doesn’t ever seem like it’s enough I want to do more to show my gratitude. Thank you Bill. @ Divorce Minister:
    dee wrote:

    @ Bill M:
    You are so awesome! I called Shauna to let her know. She has been sick the last two days. She is going to write a comment when she gets back home. She is so excited. I am willing to help with the shipping, etc.

  102. Sarah wrote:

    know that this is an unpopular opinion around here but I don’t think that Calvinism is the enemy any more than a Calvinist can say Armenianism is the enemy (and I say the same to my friends who are Calvinists). The enemy is sin, plain and simple. The enemy is Satan, the father of lies. The enemy is unbelief and deception and wicked, wicked sin.

    Sarah
    There is a problem with the NeoCalvinism theology and how it relates to sin and the church’s response to sin that is different than Arminianism (which does not include the prosperity gospel.) If God ordains all that occurs, that means that God ordained the rape of Billy and the pain that he suffered afterwards. That makes God the author of the rape of a boy.

    Before you correct me on my obvious *ignorance* of NeoCalvinism, let me assure you that I have read quite a bit,i including much of the Institutes, Piper, Dever, Duncan, Sproul, White,etc. and stand by my assessment.

    Also, since all sin is an anathema to God. Therefore, there is not difference to Billy being angry at the rapist and the rapist committing the rape. It is all the same to God. Therefore in some circles, this can lead to the Calvinist downplaying the rape and its consequences.

    It is also amazing to me that the NeoCalvinist crowd continues to hold up CJ Mahaney as an example of living the Cross centered life, humbly, of course. There is something that causes these men to need to justify CJ and the ministry of SGM. When one’s purported theology and ability to make donations to the right theological causes allows them to overlook the terrible accusations that have been documented in this instances, then I have to say that something is screwed up with these leaders of the NeoCalvinist movement.

  103. Sarah wrote:

    What would you (just curious) see as the difference between neo-Calvinism and traditional Calvinism?

    Hmmm … where would I begin? Abuse of Christian liberties (of which, Driscoll is the poster child) … seeker-friendly style of worship that borders on the irreverent in many places … militant & aggressive (cyberspace is littered with sad stories of stealth and deception to takeover churches)… extremely tribal … arrogance aplenty (determined to restore the gospel that the rest of Christendom has lost!). I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 60+ years and worshiped alongside “old” Calvinists; they have added a good perspective to Scripture in a much more civilized manner than the restless young reformers.

  104. Dee I couldn’t have said it better. You are spit on. This is what I have been fighting. Men who told Billy that God allowed this to happen to him to expose Joe’s sin! I was told God allowed this to happen to my son becauseof unconfessed sin in my life! I was told by the Goins because we all deserve no better than hell Billy deserved to be raped!!! This is neocalvinism in its raw and truest form. Yes, we were told this many times. Thank you dee for explaining. @ Divorce Minister:
    dee wrote:

    Sarah wrote:

    know that this is an unpopular opinion around here but I don’t think that Calvinism is the enemy any more than a Calvinist can say Armenianism is the enemy (and I say the same to my friends who are Calvinists). The enemy is sin, plain and simple. The enemy is Satan, the father of lies. The enemy is unbelief and deception and wicked, wicked sin.

    Sarah
    There is a problem with the NeoCalvinism theology and how it relates to sin and the church’s response to sin that is different than Arminianism (which does not include the prosperity gospel.) If God ordains all that occurs, that means that God ordained the rape of Billy and the pain that he suffered afterwards. That makes God the author of the rape of a boy.

    Before you correct me on my obvious *ignorance* of NeoCalvinism, let me assure you that I have read quite a bit,i including much of the Institutes, Piper, Dever, Duncan, Sproul, White,etc. and stand by my assessment.

    Also, since all sin is an anathema to God. Therefore, there is not difference to Billy being angry at the rapist and the rapist committing the rape. It is all the same to God. Therefore in some circles, this can lead to the Calvinist downplaying the rape and its consequences.

    It is also amazing to me that the NeoCalvinist crowd continues to hold up CJ Mahaney as an example of living the Cross centered life, humbly, of course. There is something that causes these men to need to justify CJ and the ministry of SGM. When one’s purported theology and ability to make donations to the right theological causes allows them to overlook the terrible accusations that have been documented in this instances, then I have to say that something is screwed up with these leaders of the NeoCalvinist movement.

  105. According to this blog post:
    “Covenant Life Member & Children’s Ministry Worker, Larry Ellis Caffery, Arrested on Nine Counts of Child Sex Abuse & Two Counts of False Imprisonment”

    Caffery wrote in a book:

    I had heard about Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg and decided to check it out [in 1996]. I knew this church had a very large congregation, and I thought it would be easier for me to find a new Christian wife. I felt uncomfortable during my first visit because of the size of the congregation

    If you’re a pedophile, how about not looking for a wife? Stay single.

    And don’t go looking for a wife at a church.

    I’m a single lady. I don’t wander into N.A.M.B.L.A. (pro pedo group) meetings because I’d rather not marry a pedophile.

    I don’t think single women in churches are expecting that Joe ‘Bible Thumping’ Smith chatting them up in Sunday School is secretly attracted to little boys or girls. No woman wants to marry that.

  106. marquis wrote:

    This is what I have been fighting. Men who told Billy that God allowed this to happen to him to expose Joe’s sin! I was told God allowed this to happen to my son becauseof unconfessed sin in my life!

    Someone at Julie Anne’s blog was troubled by the same awful theology. I left a link or two for that person. Here is a link I left for that person:

    Does God Bring About the Abuse of Children for His Own Glory?
    http://linkis.com/wordpress.com/uOSMA

    You might have to be logged into a Twitter account to view that page. The short of it according to that page is ‘No.’

    From Tired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderen (Christian counselor) – book recommended to me by Victorious, from this blog.
    Page 185:
    (by Jeff VanVonderen)

    I’ve talked to many Christians who have been told that the terrible things that happened to them were God’s way of teaching them some spiritual lesson or truth.

    He’s made them sick, or allowed them to be raped, or put them in an abusive family to draw them closer to himself.

    This is a lie, and it is extremely damaging to a person. It is merely a way to put a spiritual twist to a perverted message. (“You are defective – and God allowed people to sin against you for some higher purpose that you cannot comprehend.”)

    God can and does rescue us from terrible situations.

    Satan’s job is to lie, steal, accuse, bind up, or weigh people down any way he can.

    Don’t make the mistake of blaming God for what people have done against you, or for the lies that Satan promotes.

  107. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    What is important (and specific) is that this Neo-Calvinism (more Calvinist than Calvin) seems to attract a LOT of this kind of corruption, attitude, and “wicked wicked sin”. Why is that? Is there something in Calvinism that pulls corrupt types to it? Is there something insidious and corrupting about their Correct Doctrine(TM)? Is it the ego-stroking of being The Elect? Is it the comforting fatalism (and “Not my fault!” excuse machine) of Utter Predestination? Is it the Mass Movement angle of being The Coming Wave?

    Based on past experience, I think that there are people who, for whatever reason, are attracted to ‘extremes’. With that I mean extreme beliefs, attitudes or behaviours. And they will tend to gravitate towards belief systems that cater to those ‘extremes’. For example, if they are in a church or religious group that holds seemingly-moderate beliefs or opinions on particular topics they consider important, it is likely that they will move to become part of another group that holds stricter or more ‘extreme’ opinions.

    Don’t misunderstand me! I strongly believe that evaluating particular opinions and beliefs and changing them accordingly is important, and it is the right to do at times… I did it myself 8 years ago and I’ve never regretted it! If that wasn’t a good thing to do, then people would never leave cults, abusive churches or unhealthy belief systems.

    However, the desire of looking for something ‘better’, which is not bad in itself, may lead people towards more ‘extreme’ but not necessarily healthier belief systems. Some will do it with the best intentions, but others are simply attracted by what the new group offers. Actually, it’s possible the latter are actually looking for something ‘righter’ rather than something ‘better’ or healthier, if that makes any sense.

    Similar to what Sarah said, when I was still a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church I knew plenty of godly and loving Adventist people… However, that has never stopped me from thinking that the Adventist belief system has a great number of problems, to say the least. And I also think (this is a personal opinion, not based on statistics of any sort) that the Adventist congregations I knew through the years had a greater proportion of people who loved ‘extremes’ than any other church I’ve been involved with since I left.

    Neo-Calvinism is, likely, a more ‘extreme’ version of the Reformed/Calvinist belief system… It promises new adherents that they’ll receive the ‘right’ doctrines and they’ll know how to do the ‘right’ things in order to please God the ‘right’ way. Therefore, I’m not surprised to see that it seems to attract a particular type of people.

  108. @ Bill M:

    What a kind gesture! This is Christian community in action. I’m not gonna use the descriptor ‘authentic’ because that’s been way overused, particularly by the Neo-Cals.

    I’ll split the shipping cost with Dee. 🙂

  109. I hope I’m just a crazy conspiracy theorist, but the lack of sense his book makes, his working with the kids, and his little acorn logo on his book, and the hush-up nature of SGM, and his advertisement in his book of Covenant life, and not leaving out his propensity toward girls, and someone here said “smokescreen” maybe, could the book have merely been a calling card? Ive read all the allegations of the lawsuits. Nothing makes sense about why so much child abuse is going on there.. When my daughter was slightly involved we CLC, she said she is sure that there are big connections beyond that church that church. Everyone needs to be questioned in that church. I bet the innocents all at least know some story close to them that they have been trained to keep secret so no one can connect the dots. Some have simply had enough of course and have walked away from God altogether. They need to be questioned too. It absolutely boggles my mind why her CLC boyfriend at the time could not see the difference between gossip and alerting people for safety. We literally shouted at each other. Sometimes I have felt wrong for causing trouble between them and eventually they split up. But her boyfriend was so hurt about my blogging even though I was careful not to give him away. He had told her to stop talking to me. She told me to stop blogging because he was so hurt he was crying. I had to have a cardiac stent through the whole ordeal. But I rember saying to her back the, 2011, that I feared I would grandkids that I wouldn’t be allowed to see and that I feared I might have grandkids sexually abused at that church. I am shaking about how right that could have been.
    Sorry this comment isn’t written well. I am emotional and using my IPad.

  110. @ Sarah:
    What is really interesting is to track its various forms and practices in general from Europe to South Africa to the New World Puritans to the Confederate South. It tends to ebb and rise again. The mainlines tended to gravitate to social justice. Many Puritan descendants gravitated to forms of Universalism, Congregationalism and then abolition. Calvinism is inherently authoritarian so it needs some form of caste control to maintain power.

    This current resurgence reminds me of scary political movements of the 20th century that attracted young men.

  111. @ Patti:
    I agree that there are likely many more victims from the past and present that we don’t know about. So glad your daughter is no longer with him!!!!

  112. Your right, and I can assure you that never once not from that night did I ever fault God for it. I have said all along God’s natureis void of any evil and therefore he did not cause this rape nor did he orchastrate it. He saved billy from being raped and violated any longer. Anyone who tells me otherwise, I go nuts and although God can defend Himself I have shouted all along God never intended for billy to suffer that rape!@ Divorce Minister:
    Daisy wrote:

    marquis wrote:

    This is what I have been fighting. Men who told Billy that God allowed this to happen to him to expose Joe’s sin! I was told God allowed this to happen to my son becauseof unconfessed sin in my life!

    Someone at Julie Anne’s blog was troubled by the same awful theology. I left a link or two for that person. Here is a link I left for that person:

    Does God Bring About the Abuse of Children for His Own Glory?
    http://linkis.com/wordpress.com/uOSMA

    You might have to be logged into a Twitter account to view that page. The short of it according to that page is ‘No.’

    From Tired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderen (Christian counselor) – book recommended to me by Victorious, from this blog.
    Page 185:
    (by Jeff VanVonderen)

    I’ve talked to many Christians who have been told that the terrible things that happened to them were God’s way of teaching them some spiritual lesson or truth.

    He’s made them sick, or allowed them to be raped, or put them in an abusive family to draw them closer to himself.

    This is a lie, and it is extremely damaging to a person. It is merely a way to put a spiritual twist to a perverted message. (“You are defective – and God allowed people to sin against you for some higher purpose that you cannot comprehend.”)

    God can and does rescue us from terrible situations.

    Satan’s job is to lie, steal, accuse, bind up, or weigh people down any way he can.

    Don’t make the mistake of blaming God for what people have done against you, or for the lies that Satan promotes.

  113. I think your onto something and No that’s not being a conspiracy theorist. These men operate in code. Interesting Patti wrote:

    I hope I’m just a crazy conspiracy theorist, but the lack of sense his book makes, his working with the kids, and his little acorn logo on his book, and the hush-up nature of SGM, and his advertisement in his book of Covenant life, and not leaving out his propensity toward girls, and someone here said “smokescreen” maybe, could the book have merely been a calling card? Ive read all the allegations of the lawsuits. Nothing makes sense about why so much child abuse is going on there.. When my daughter was slightly involved we CLC, she said she is sure that there are big connections beyond that church that church. Everyone needs to be questioned in that church. I bet the innocents all at least know some story close to them that they have been trained to keep secret so no one can connect the dots. Some have simply had enough of course and have walked away from God altogether. They need to be questioned too. It absolutely boggles my mind why her CLC boyfriend at the time could not see the difference between gossip and alerting people for safety. We literally shouted at each other. Sometimes I have felt wrong for causing trouble between them and eventually they split up. But her boyfriend was so hurt about my blogging even though I was careful not to give him away. He had told her to stop talking to me. She told me to stop blogging because he was so hurt he was crying. I had to have a cardiac stent through the whole ordeal. But I rember saying to her back the, 2011, that I feared I would grandkids that I wouldn’t be allowed to see and that I feared I might have grandkids sexually abused at that church. I am shaking about how right that could have been.
    Sorry this comment isn’t written well. I am emotional and using my IPad.

  114. Nickname wrote:

    It is really hard for someone to shoot himself in the chest with a shotgun.

    For anyone! and especially for a 12 year old! I am trying to figure out how it is even physically possible?

  115. @ David (Eagle):
    David, is Neo Calvinism taking over the EFCA in South East region happening because pastors they call are Southern Baptists and close proximity to SBC seminaries?

  116. Nancy2 wrote:

    HUG, people other than MEEEEEEEEEEEE do actually exist. However, those other people exist only for the sole purpose of serving MEEEEEEEEEEE!

    They’re props. Every good stage needs some props.

  117. @ dee:
    Dee & Deb, you might consider monitoring an SBC resolution under development regarding sexual predators. In a post yesterday on SBC Voices, Bart Barber writes “Millennial Christian leaders come to ministry leadership out of congregations of Millennial believers who are alarmingly antinomian when it comes to their own sex lives.” http://sbcvoices.com/preface-to-a-resolution/

  118. @ Max:
    Where are the manly men pastors on that thread. One mentions removing churches that don’t deal with it but NO ONE dares mention removing CJ Mahaneys SBC church. They are so afraid of offending the great Mohler Dever duo.

    They get to feel good about themselves with a timely resolution and things go back to normal with Mohler, Dever,Mahaney at T$G and CJ’s SBC church.

    They are all so phoney.

  119. When are Mohler, Piper, Dever and the entire lot of them going to denounce him… That includes John McArthur…. Despicable…

  120. @Patti – I well remember you speaking about your concerns about your daughter’s relationship with this young man and how you had to stop blogging about those concerns due to pressure regarding your relationship with her. I am glad to hear, after all these years, that she did not marry him.

  121. Maybe one reason the Neo-cal leaders won’t condemn Mahaney is because they don’t want to be scrutinized themselves.

    Holding one of their buddies to a certain level of behavioral ethics might invite others the freedom to hold them to that level of ethical behavior.

    They have an attitude of, “I won’t knock you, don’t you come knocking my door.”

  122. I think the Neo-Cal celeb pastors/preachers will hunker down in the bunker. I’d like to think otherwise, but there’s too much evidence out there to the contrary. I’d like to direct TWW readers to an excellent article on Natalie Greenfield’s blog, which gives excellent advice to churches on how to deal with domestic violence and sexual abuse in their midst.

    http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/2016/03/making-things-right-guest-post-by.html#comment-form

  123. @ Debbylynn:
    They will when their following dwindles and it costs them. But I don’t see that happening. Even the older pastors in the SBC are afraid of Mohler. His trustees are rubber stamps. I have seen grown men delete blog posts because he sent his pit bull, York, after them with legal threats

  124. siteseer wrote:

    They’re props. Every good stage needs some props.

    “Well, sometimes it seems impossible
    That the game could get that rough
    But the stage is set, the exit’s barred
    And the make-up won’t come off”
    Al Stewart — “Carol”

  125. Max wrote:

    “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, ‘The LORD does not see us’ … Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.” (Ezekiel 8)
    American Christianity will be amazed when the New Calvinism bubble breaks and its Together for Calvinism elite fall from grace. God sees the deception and will have His day when He breaks the blood pact of the New Calvinist leaders who have taken a generation astray into the aberrations of reformed theology.

    Amen, Max. But what can be said for a theology that posits God with damning a large portion of His creation before they ever drew breath, for no other reason than to bring glory to Himself? This is the god they serve, one that damns people – not because of anything they have done or failed to do, but just because their god arbitrarily chooses some and not others.

  126. Because each of them have their own “issues”, which requires humility. As has been pointed out here at WW, purity of doctrine trumps behavior.

    Debbylynn wrote:

    When are Mohler, Piper, Dever and the entire lot of them going to denounce him… That includes John McArthur…. Despicable…

  127. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? A

    He speaks as someone who does not think the destruction of innocent children is important enough to look into. 🙁

    I wonder how he would feel if one of his own children had been a victim?

  128. Again, the purity of doctrine trumps kids getting molested… As ling as CJ speaks their doctrine, he is cool… I grew up in a different time, but purity of doctrine trumped being an a$$hole then, and it still does….

    siteseer wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? A

    He speaks as someone who does not think the destruction of innocent children is important enough to look into.

    I wonder how he would feel if one of his own children had been a victim?

  129. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? Amy Smith kept hammering him about his support of Mahaney, and wouldn’t let up. Boy, did he dodge like a pro. Gregory Hines should tap dance like that.

    https://twitter.com/watchkeep/status/714590881207062528

    How can anyone so clueless call himself a leader of anything, let alone a church?

    Twitter only works in this way if you haven’t been blocked by the person. I was blocked by Mark Driscoll and The Trinity Church today. How lovely and Scientological.

  130. Stan wrote:

    Because the only real sins are not being in a small group,

    That meets weekly to review the pastor’s sermon.

  131. @ mirele:
    @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    I kept asking him if he ever received any donations from CJ mahaney. He kept ignoring y question. I believe the answer to that question will answer many other questionsWe know CJ gave money to Mark Dever/CHBC, Mohler/SBTS and Wayne Grudem (for his own self.) All three of them are staunch allies of CJ/SGM. I have a feeling we have only scratched the surface.

  132. Darlene wrote:

    Amen, Max. But what can be said for a theology that posits God with damning a large portion of His creation before they ever drew breath, for no other reason than to bring glory to Himself? This is the god they serve, one that damns people – not because of anything they have done or failed to do, but just because their god arbitrarily chooses some and not others.

    This is one of the Achilles Heels of Calvinists. They will claim you don’t understand them if you say this. That is not true,. You understand their theology quite well.

  133. Lydia wrote:

    I have seen grown men delete blog posts because he sent his pit bull, York, after them with legal threats

    However, there are some grown women out here that do not give two hoots about legal threats.

  134. Remnant wrote:

    Maybe one reason the Neo-cal leaders won’t condemn Mahaney is because they don’t want to be scrutinized themselves.

    Especially they don’t want to answer if they got money from Mahaney or SGM. Habit refused to answer my questions on the matter last evening. That leads me to believe that his *ministry* benefitted greatly from the generous yet clueless tithers at SGM.

  135. And gets dirt on everyone so they can control them… There are number of examples of this going on….

    dee wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    Because the only real sins are not being in a small group,
    That meets weekly to review the pastor’s sermon.

  136. @dee … It’s erased now. But you asked him twice, he said he had already answered and I HAD seen the $5k response prior to your second request.

  137. dee wrote:

    @ mirele:
    I was blocked from the beginning. It brings me great joy to know I have miffed him off.

    You know, it amuses me to think he’s annoyed with me. Seriously, all I am is just another woman telling him the truth and that’s a problem.

  138. dee wrote:

    I am willing to help with the shipping, etc.

    I sent you an email for details on where to ship. I’ll tweak you here if I don’t hear back in a day or two. The system was orphaned when the owner bought a new laptop. It has plenty of life in it and recognized it wasn’t being used and recalling the need for a computer for Shauna and Billy I asked if the owner wanted to donate it. So I can’t take credit other than being a go-between between extraordinary normal people.

  139. dee wrote:

    When one’s purported theology and ability to make donations to the right theological causes allows them to overlook the terrible accusations that have been documented in this instances, then I have to say that something is screwed up with these leaders of the NeoCalvinist movement.

    “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
    ~ Attributed to a Beautiful young Rabbi from Nazareth ~

  140. Lydia wrote:

    I have seen grown men delete blog posts because he sent his pit bull, York, after them with legal threats

    Who are these grown men? What are the blog posts?

  141. dee wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    Because the only real sins are not being in a small group,
    That meets weekly to review the pastor’s sermon.

    Exactly. For all their idolizing of the Bible, they don’t encourage people to study it directly, learning to listen for the voice of the Spirit and to sift things humbly in their community. They want people to study what the intermediary between the people and God said about what the Bible teaches. It’s not a very subtle way of elevating the status of the pastor. I’m surprised that so many evangelicals put up with it.

  142. elastigirl wrote:

    Yes, I agree. christian culture has a sin complex. sin sin sin sin sin. everything’s a sin: from being tired, to having PMS, to any feeling/emotion

    Agreed. There’s a vast gulf of difference between obsession with imagined sin and the real stuff that actually causes suffering and misery to others.

  143. I’ve heard through the grapevine of at least one person who refused the invitation to speak at T4G 2016 because he didn’t want to share the platform with C.J. Mahaney.

    He cared too much about the victims.

  144. dee wrote:

    I kept asking him if he ever received any donations from CJ mahaney. He kept ignoring y question.

    Bought and Paid For?
    (HUMBLY, of course…)

  145. Lydia wrote:

    This current resurgence reminds me of scary political movements of the 20th century that attracted young men.

    Ein Volk, Ein Reich, EIN FUEHRER?

  146. Stan wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Because the only real sins are not being in a small group, too many non Christian friends, and not having every John Piper book.

    Don’t forget doubting that Calvin (and PASTOR) is God.

  147. Max wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Amen HUG. Great comment. There is a spiritual DNA on New Calvinism … and it ain’t holy.

    DITTO!!!

  148. marquis wrote:

    Bill, thank you soooo much I can’t believe this. Billy is going to be excited what an incredible gift. Truly it’s God doing something. I can’t express how,deeply moved I am right now after getting off 5he phone with Dee. It’s all of you here. For almost 3 years I endured not just the assault on my child that night but the carnage left behind and a church (ken ramey, the elders (E) , deacons, and those I thought loved us) abandon billy at his darkest hour. As a mother I watched billy ask God why him and nor some other boy because of the nouthetic counseling he received at LBC. He wondered why God picked him and what he did was so bad to deserve to be raped! God has brought us here to find refuge, love, compassion, and a wonderful group of people who believe Billy and support him. What joy this has brought to my heart to know that you love billy and are caring for him in so many ways. I told dee that I still wish it wasn’t my billy and I at times want so bad to go back and save billy from that horror. I know this will never be possible and being here in the care of all of you has helped me cope with what we have been going through. Thank you and it doesn’t ever seem like it’s enough I want to do more to show my gratitude. Thank you Bill.

    This is such good news, Marquis! I am so glad to hear that TWW has been a refuge for you and Billy.

  149. @ dee:

    I see. I thought maybe they honored him in some special way for something . . . I wouldn’t know what. The thought is nauseating.

  150. @ Mark:

    Mark its growing…the new EFCA church plants are Neo-Calvinist. Look at South Carolina those are recent church plants I believe. Some of the other churches I believe were theologically hijacked. But the rate of Neo-Calvinism is greater in the Se District than the Eastern District.

  151. siteseer wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
    How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? A
    He speaks as someone who does not think the destruction of innocent children is important enough to look into.
    I wonder how he would feel if one of his own children had been a victim?

    That Twitter feed – specifically Thabiti’s comments – was alarming. It was as if he was saying: “Talk to the hand and not the face.” He really didn’t want to engage with the remote possibility that C.J. could have done wrong. I would call it willful blindness.

  152. dee wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    Because the only real sins are not being in a small group,
    That meets weekly to review the pastor’s sermon.

    And where the pew peons confess their sins to the group leader, whereupon the group leader then talks to the elders about the sins of the pew peons.

  153. dee wrote:

    @ mirele:
    @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    I kept asking him if he ever received any donations from CJ mahaney. He kept ignoring y question. I believe the answer to that question will answer many other questionsWe know CJ gave money to Mark Dever/CHBC, Mohler/SBTS and Wayne Grudem (for his own self.) All three of them are staunch allies of CJ/SGM. I have a feeling we have only scratched the surface.

    One Hand Washes Another.

  154. Darlene wrote:

    That Twitter feed – specifically Thabiti’s comments – was alarming. It was as if he was saying: “Talk to the hand and not the face.” He really didn’t want to engage with the remote possibility that C.J. could have done wrong. I would call it willful blindness.

    It was really sad. It was like “raped children? meh, that’s not my responsibility.”

  155. I have been following WBW for a few months now since my community church in NZ has been preaching discipleship constantly with many references to TGC people like Tim Keller. CJ Mahaneys book the Cross Centred Life is on their recommended booklist.
    I haven’t been back.

    Neo Calvinism has spread to New Zealand.

  156. “Law enforcement is very familiar with Covenant Life Church and their cover up of sexual abuse as in the case of Nathaniel Morales.  Their focus is (ed. now) on Caffery but who knows what their investigation will discover in reference to another conspiracy or the negligent handling of this situation that enabled abuse… ” -Brent Detwiler

    __
    Background Historical Notes:

    Brent: “I was one of the four men who began Sovereign Grace Ministries (ed. now SGC) in 1982.  I served on its Board of Directors for next 25 years.  I left SGM as a matter of conscience in 2009 having spent ten years trying to bring about internal reform of an ethical nature.  Soon after my departure, I began to write a set of documents for C.J. Mahaney that I hoped would bring about godly change.  That effort failed.  As a result, it was necessary to send those documents to the SGM pastors in July 2011.  Though never my goal, the hard evidence contained in those documents contributed to the departure of approximately 40 churches, 100 pastors and half of all the people in SGM churches.  Despite this reality, the leadership of SGM has never acknowledged any of the sinful wrongdoing brought to its attention by this vast array of pastors and former members.  In October 2012, a civil lawsuit was brought against SGM and other parties alleging a conspiracy to commit and cover up the sexual abuse of children.  It was expanded in January 2013 and again in May 2013. Unfortunately, the lawsuit was dismissed by a Maryland judge on technicalities but not on its merits.  The allegations of fact in the lawsuit have never been argued in a civil court or tried in a criminal court.  I hope that changes. ”  -Brent Detwiler
    http://www.brentdetwiler.com/please-support-aletheia-minis/

  157. Would some sort of Nathan to David allegorical story work on these CJ supporters??? Give an equated story, change the names, and type of denomination/group…and then the supporters say “That’s horrible!!!” and then the “Nathan” comes back with “That’s CJ! That’s SGM!!” Yea, I know, it wouldn’t work. Further, people have already tried to draw the parallels between SGM and the Penn State scandal, of which they were all happy to condemn, including Joe Paterno and the assistant coach who were both fired for “knowing” and not doing anything, whom CJ is the equivalent of….this all just boggles my mind!!

    THERE HAS TO BE some serious stuff going on here underneath the surface, worse than we might imagine, more prevalent than what is meeting the eye. I am not believing anymore or entertaining the thought that these people are just “confused, ignorant” or biased because of simple relationship and conference and publishing connections. I think there is some cover-ups across the board, not merely pertaining to child sexual abuse or maybe not all, in regard to the TGC/T4G crowd. I have seen too much in these circles to not admit that there is something seriously amiss, and that there’s more to the picture than we’re realizing. The fruits of their behavior are extremely telling. If it was merely about money and popularity, I don’t think CJ would have made it this far nor would they be so supportive of him.

    But within SGM, I agree, that there is more rotten there and while what has been uncovered has been horrifying enough, I believe there is more. There always is. There is no other way to describe SGM as other than operating a sort of pedophilia crime ring…and the question seems to now be was it on purpose??? Was there a strategy behind the ring itself, and not just a strategy to cover it up? Was it not merely their doctrine of God and humanity that caused them to look the other way, but is there something more sinister going on where the cart actually came before the horse?

    I don’t think these kind of “conspiracy theories” are out of the question anymore.

  158. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? Amy Smith kept hammering him about his support of Mahaney, and wouldn’t let up. Boy, did he dodge like a pro. Gregory Hines should tap dance like that.

    I thought everyone knew that TA said that he would “fight for black girls.” He didn’t make any promises regarding little boys, or children of any other race!

  159. @dee … It isn’t erased as I previously stated. I found it again this morning online. I am rather unfamiliar with twittering, but going to his page and clicking on his tweets will open additional dialogue. I wanted to state that here publicly because of my previous public statement.

  160.     __

    “If You Are Not Of The Elect, You Are The Devil’s Toast?”

    hmmm…

      “The New Calvinist theology posits God with damning a large portion of His creation before they ever draw breath; simply for no other reason than to bring glory to Himself? 
    This is the god they serve, one that damns people – not because of anything they have done or failed to do, but just because their god arbitrarily chooses some and not others…” (ed.) -Darlene

    huh?

    This is what Calvinism has always taught, but no one aparrently ‘was’ listening.

    What?

    (sadface)

    A definition from a book that has chapters from prominent SBC Calvinists in a’Southern Baptist dialog’ : “Reprobation – From the Latin verb reprobare, to reprove.  This is ‘the belief’ that God has eternally condemned all non-elect persons to eternal condemnation for their sins.  John Calvin insisted “that this is not just a matter of God’s ‘passing over’ the non-elect, but an actual hardening so that they are actually strengthened to resist the gospel,” although he also taught that humans are unable to understand the full counsel of God on this issue and must humbly trust His goodness and justice in this.” [1]

    Within that context, take note of what John Calvin had to say:

    John Calvin : “We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction.  We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by just and blameless but at the same time, incomprehensible, judgment.”  (Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3:21:7)

    John Calvin (continues) : “Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children.” (Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3:23:1)

    **

    What does Jesus teach?

    “Jesus teaches the religious leader Nicodemus in John 3 that the lost sinner remains in their condemnation for one single, solitary reason, because they did not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  The cause of a person being sent to hell or damnation will be ‘their’ sinful unbelief of rejecting Jesus. There are no under dogs, just over lords of their own rebellious ways. Sadly, lost people go to a devil’s hell for all eternity when they die –without Jesus.  However, God did not pass them over; they passed over Jesus and (ed. by their own choice) rejected God’s love, mercy, grace, and total forgiveness.” [2] (edited)

    In conclusion:

    Don’t kid yourself, (there is no mistake) a Calvinist’s theology is driving their actions.

    Skreeeeeeeeeetch !

    …and da walls came tumblin’ down…

    Toot!

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    ref:
    [1] Shawn D. Wright, “Glossary of Some Important Theological Terms,” in the book, Calvinism: A Southern Baptist Dialogue, Nashville: B & H, 2008, 284.

    [2] http://beforeitsnews.com/christian-news/2012/08/john-calvin-in-his-own-words-article-ii-reprobation-2445128.html

  161. Darlene wrote:

    And where the pew peons confess their sins to the group leader, whereupon the group leader then talks to the elders about the sins of the pew peons.

    Party Commissar.

  162. Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    Where are the manly men pastors on that thread.

    Busy slapping down Jezebel Uppity Wimmen, of course.
    “ME MAN! RAWR!”

  163. @ Remnant:
    I am not much into Twitter but I wanted to see the exchange. It is actually worse. All the following is an overview.

    He starts by announcing to his followers he is available for a bit to answer questions. For some reason his wife or him on vacation has to do with this.

    Huh? Seriously? Bizarre. The king is allowing and answering questions for a few minutes! How blessed we are as peasants to have him condescend to us.

    Peasant Dee took him up on it.

    His reason for ignoring the Mahaney evil? Because he is not qualified to “adjudicate” such things but others who are, did that for him. He is standing by his friends.

    Sounds a lot like the Nuremberg defense

  164. It really bugs me that Brent D left SGM and says he had limited info about the going one their in but then he does what every de flocked religious leader in this century does-create another platform to support himself.Come on ,if you really care so much about the victims why don’t you do something tangible like create a 24 hour prayer support group,create and manage a fund for for the victims to draw from to afford counseling, or in the very least get a real job (can I suggest social worker) and spend the rest of your years contributing to society instead of being one more group that is asking other people to support them.

  165. Lydia wrote:

    Where are the manly men pastors on that thread. O

    Preacher boys, not men of God, are ruling the SBC kingdom right now. SBC leadership has been reduced to a mutual admiration society. They are all watching each others’ back for the good of the reformed movement. Some of the SBC blogs are managed by former nobody’s that became somebody when they started posting articles in support of Mohler, CJ and assorted other New Calvinist elite. Blogging is their way of rubbing shoulders with the big dogs, but the big dogs don’t really give a big whoop about them; they just use them.

  166. __

    “Blogs Are Providing A Valuable Service…”

      “It’s hard to discuss these abuse cases without feeling grieved in the process. But, I believe we are providing a service and that many who read this blog will take note and hopefully guard their children more carefully. Child abuse is not something spoken about enough in churches…” -Persona
    __
    ref: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2015/08/20/the-police-report/comment-page-33/#comment-90596

  167. Lydia wrote:

    They get to feel good about themselves with a timely resolution and things go back to normal with Mohler, Dever,Mahaney at T$G and CJ’s SBC church.

    Messengers at the SBC-2013 annual convention attempted to step up to the Mohler/CJ alliance when they approved a resolution “On Sexual Abuse Of Children.”

    Without naming Mohler, CJ, and SGM, they certainly had them in mind in the resolution which stated:

    “We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”

    With the SGM scandal in the news at that time, Dr. Mohler surely knew that SBC was calling him personally to “the highest sense of discernment” in that CJ & SGM possessed “questionable policies and practices in protecting our children”, but Dr. Mohler ignored the resolution and continued about his business. Another resolution of this sort will just be black words on white paper that won’t be personalized and acted upon.

  168. @ Mandavilla:
    I understand your concern but getting the insider scoop of a whistleblower out to the public often brings conflicting views of ethics. Just be thankful that Brent is as detailed and organized as he is. We would never have seen sgmwikileaks. An inside snapshot at how fake and cheesy these guys are with too much power, time and money.

  169. Brent Detwiler could have remained silent and stayed with SGM and collected a salary. He lost quite a bit financially because he blew the whistle on these men. I would encourage you to read about how theyou turned on him because he was trying to do the right thing. I’m not sure what he’s asking for but if this is what God has called him to do then God will use others to provide support. I’m not being rude in the least but you don’t have to financially support him. You to could start a prayer group or counseling fund! It’s your idea so why not try that rather than attack him? Personally it’s partially because of him that I was able to know what happened to pam Palmers daughter and because of dee is why she has become a dear sister to me. How,amazing are these people who take a stand aND go through loss so that me and my son can find comfort. I’m just asking you to look at this from a different point of view. @ Divorce Minister:
    Mandavilla wrote:

    It really bugs me that Brent D left SGM and says he had limited info about the going one their in but then he does what every de flocked religious leader in this century does-create another platform to support himself.Come on ,if you really care so much about the victims why don’t you do something tangible like create a 24 hour prayer support group,create and manage a fund for for the victims to draw from to afford counseling, or in the very least get a real job (can I suggest social worker) and spend the rest of your years contributing to society instead of being one more group that is asking other people to support them.

  170. Lydia wrote:

    Even the older pastors in the SBC are afraid of Mohler. His trustees are rubber stamps.

    Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not spiritual gifts. I keep waiting for a prophet of God to walk up to Dr. Mohler and knock him off his high-horse as he shouts “You are the Man!” This thing within SBC has taken on a spiritual dimension that I’m not sure the denomination recognizes.

  171. @ Darlene:
    Amen, Darlene. The determinist Calvinist God is not the God I know. The essential tenets of Calvinism misrepresent the very character of God, which is love.

  172. Publish Americ and Tate are "You pay us a lot of money and we'll put your book in print" publishers, AKA vanity presses. No peer review. No true editing feedback, no reins were put on this publication with these "publishers".

  173. Rose wrote:

    Would some sort of Nathan to David allegorical story work on these CJ supporters???

    I think it is safe to conclude that if it were King CJ, Nathan would have been led away and never heard from again.

  174. I cannot believe that friends still attend CLC. I cannot believe that they believe their church, pastors and members are being persecuted. Sick.

  175. marquis wrote:

    Brent Detwiler could have remained silent and stayed with SGM and collected a salary. He lost quite a bit financially because he blew the whistle on these men.

    It is not quite so simple, Marquis. He was booted out of SGM (defrocked) before he released the documents (which had nothing to do with the child sexual abuse). He was also one of the main builders of SGM who treated many men and women the same way he, himself, was treated in the end of his reign with SGM. He has stated that he knew nothing of most of the child sexual abuse issues that had gone on, save one that he delt with by calling the police. He didn’t start writing about the child sexual abuse until it started becoming known publicly apart from him. This was well after he was kicked out of SGM. He WAS a big part of the spiritual abuse that devestated hundreds, if not thousands, of people in SGM during his time there. Hopefully you understand the mixed emotions some people have toward Brent, as well as why some people have no respect for him at all.

  176. Bill M wrote:

    Rose wrote:

    Would some sort of Nathan to David allegorical story work on these CJ supporters???

    I think it is safe to conclude that if it were King CJ, Nathan would have been led away and never heard from again.

    HUMBLY, of course (chuckle chuckle).

  177. Ohhh no I understand now. I didn’t realize that. I’m sorry for those who got hurt @ Divorce Minister:
    Bridget wrote:

    marquis wrote:

    Brent Detwiler could have remained silent and stayed with SGM and collected a salary. He lost quite a bit financially because he blew the whistle on these men.

    It is not quite so simple, Marquis. He was booted out of SGM (defrocked) before he released the documents (which had nothing to do with the child sexual abuse). He was also one of the main builders of SGM who treated many men and women the same way he, himself, was treated in the end of his reign with SGM. He has stated that he knew nothing of most of the child sexual abuse issues that had gone on, save one that he delt with by calling the police. He didn’t start writing about the child sexual abuse until it started becoming known publicly apart from him. This was well after he was kicked out of SGM. He WAS a big part of the spiritual abuse that devestated hundreds, if not thousands, of people in SGM during his time there. Hopefully you understand the mixed emotions some people have toward Brent, as well as why some people have no respect for him at all.

  178. Darlene wrote:

    Amen, Max. But what can be said for a theology that posits God with damning a large portion of His creation before they ever drew breath, for no other reason than to bring glory to Himself?

    “In’shal’lah… Al’lah’u Akbar!”?

  179. @ Sopwith:
    Thanks for posting those quotes. It’s pretty hard to deny that’s what Calvinism teaches just through logic alone but the quotes are quite useful when a Calvinist says our logic is wrong and that is not what they believe.

  180. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    And gets dirt on everyone so they can control them… There are number of examples of this going on….

    Just like Scientology Auditing Records?

    dee wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    Because the only real sins are not being in a small group,
    That meets weekly to review the pastor’s sermon.

  181. siteseer wrote:

    Nickname wrote:

    It is really hard for someone to shoot himself in the chest with a shotgun.

    For anyone! and especially for a 12 year old! I am trying to figure out how it is even physically possible?

    “Shorty committed suicide with a little help from us.”
    — Charlie Manson

  182. Sarah wrote:

    Headless Unicorn – not preacher’s platitudes, just Biblical truth.

    Sarah, a LOT of us on this blog have been on the receiving end of Weaponized “Biblical Truth(TM)”. Including such Biblical Truths as Male Supremacy, Utter Predestination, Biblical/Nouhetic Counseling, and Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God going to and fro looking for anyone he can Cast into Eternal Hell. (And my favorite, the Book of Revelation being a description of Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War including “demon locusts” that are really John trying to describe helicopter gunships piloted by long-haired bearded hippies.)

    A steady diet of that kind of Weaponized “Biblical Truth” kind of blows the credibility of anything Biblical.

  183. @ Max:
    Lydia:

    The SBC is a very sick puppy, but the current SBC leaders would almost to a man tell you things are getting better.

  184. Rose wrote:

    I don’t think these kind of “conspiracy theories” are out of the question anymore.

    Not a theory any longer … the New Calvinists are out in the open and in your face.

  185. @lydia … here is a transcript of a tweet during the conversation:

    —-
    Thabiti Anyabwile
    @watchkeep Don’t think I’ll play “he said”/”she said” w/events I have no knowledge of w/in decades. Better investigators than me have spokn
    —-

    From what I can determine based on this short, quick tweet, Thabiti has two main concerns.

    1. Events happened too long ago for him to concern himself.
    2. Investigators have spoken.

    Three quick observations regarding these two concerns:

    1. What is the line of demarcation marking time being too long ago? One decade? Two? Three?
    2. What about events that have happened more recently than that obscure line of demarcation?
    3. What investigators? AoR? That folly of an “investigation”?

    Not knowing the man, my observation and opinion is that he simply does not want to know facts or see the faces of the abused, so that he can maintain his friendship with CJ, and thereby his position of power as “leader” within this movement.

  186. mot wrote:

    @ Max:
    Lydia:

    The SBC is a very sick puppy, but the current SBC leaders would almost to a man tell you things are getting better.

    Ees Party Line, Comrades.

    War Is Peace
    Freedom Is Slavery
    Ignorance Is Strength
    Two Plus Two Equals Five

  187. Remnant wrote:

    Holding one of their buddies to a certain level of behavioral ethics might invite others the freedom to hold them to that level of ethical behavior.
    They have an attitude of, “I won’t knock you, don’t you come knocking my door.”

    And “One Hand Was$he$ The Other…”

  188. Rose wrote:

    But within SGM, I agree, that there is more rotten there and while what has been uncovered has been horrifying enough, I believe there is more. There always is.

    Sounds like a popular phrase from critics of Scientology: “It’s always worse than you think.”

    And now this could be applied to a segment of Christendom. What a depressing, heartbreaking thing to know. 🙁

  189. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Rose wrote:
    But within SGM, I agree, that there is more rotten there and while what has been uncovered has been horrifying enough, I believe there is more. There always is.

    Sounds like a popular phrase from critics of Scientology: “It’s always worse than you think.”

    “When it looks Good, IT’S NOT.
    — tag line of a D&D dungeonmaster from my college days
    When it looks Bad, IT’S WORSE THAN YOUR WORST NIGHTMARES.”

  190. I am not sure if someone else has mentioned this yet but last I heard CLC hasn’t made any type of announcement of this arrest. It is sad that CLC Members have to find out online that a child molester who is a member of their church was arrested.

    Why aren’t they informing members.

  191. @ Lydia:
    Lydia wrote:

    Even Carl Trueman exonerated Mahaney for ministry. So see, it’s official!

    Lydia, please link to Trueman’s exoneration of Mahaney. I cannot find it on MOS. Thanks.

  192. Mahaney, Chander, Mohler, MacArthur, all of them guilty. They are all frauds, every last one of them. They hide behind scripture and courts and lawyers.

    Well, here is a verse and learn it well. James 4:17. Yeah, I went there. If you know what is good and fail to do it, then you have sinned. So, covering up and lying and hiding because of whatever the reason, is no excuse when children and women have been abused. I don’t care about your doctrine or preaching or friends, if you can’t even do what is right.

    Another famous man put his spin on this verse, although it is not scripture, when Edmund Burke said all it takes for evil to prosper is good men to do nothing.

    Well I guess these men are either good men who do nothing and violate James 4:17 or they are evil.

    Sorry for the rant, but I am soooooo done with these guys and their movement.

    The scripture quote about missing the weightier matters of the law and scripture was spot on.

  193. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (And my favorite, the Book of Revelation being a description of Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War including “demon locusts” that are really John trying to describe helicopter gunships piloted by long-haired bearded hippies.)

    Speaking of Revelation, I have to admit that chapter 18 comes to my mind these days as I read about these things going on under cover in the “church.” So many parallels there! Maybe it’s not some future false church but the one we have right now (and have had, since not very long after Jesus left). But what do I know.

  194. @ Burwell:
    He was on the panel sent to tell is all they had investigated and Mahaney was fine for ministry. Remember that?

    I get it he has been trying to rehab his image since then. He just needs to come clean and say he was wrong to get on the ‘clear Mahaney bandwagon’ right away instead of writing about “celebrity” ministers in general.

  195. @ mot:
    The pew sitters have been indoctrinated to believe that negative truths are sinful. Therefore the few who know the big picture either don’t talk, leave or are shamed if they try share concerns.

  196. Because of this I have no respect left for the lot of them. This is wickedness. Willful blindness, and no better than the Pharisees in Jesus’ time. Blind guides all of them. How dare they treat fellow human beings with such disdain while excusing the sins of their friends! They make me want to vomit.
    @ dee:

  197. I am concerned there are many more coverups that may become apparent as people exit the cult mentality, and that this is why these “men” will not denounce CJ. I hope this is not the case, but their refusal to stand up says they love parse from men and do not fear let alone love God as they may protest that they do.
    @ Remnant:

  198. Just remember, it is better to have all your theology right than actually go after a celebrity pastor who might be a pedophile, adulterer, murderer?, abuser, etc.

    Sorry if this offends, but it is no better than the Catholic Church or Penn State w/Paterno.

    Also, I am sick of the parallels, like the blue code w/police and omerta with mob families.

    I am sorry of that offends, but the truth is blood is not thicker than water when it comes to truth justice and the weightier matters of scripture and the law of loving God and your neighbor.

  199. That whole Twitter exchange tells me Thabiti is deeply deceived and willfully so, like many at TGC. He like Challies has bought the party line that calling a spade a spade is somehow bitterness. On top of this, he had the audacity to tell people who have (contrary to him) taken the time to research the whole mess they should advocate “better”. Has he sat down with victims and their families on their turf and listened to how CJ behaved towards them in their pain? Has he considered how his family might feel if not celebrities and in similar circumstances?! Has he taken the time to read the blogs, legal allegations, and journalistic reports in detail? Or has he stopped his ears for his “friend”? Done.

    Remnant wrote:

    @lydia … here is a transcript of a tweet during the conversation:

    —-
    Thabiti Anyabwile
    @watchkeep Don’t think I’ll play “he said”/”she said” w/events I have no knowledge of w/in decades. Better investigators than me have spokn
    —-

    From what I can determine based on this short, quick tweet, Thabiti has two main concerns.

    1. Events happened too long ago for him to concern himself.
    2. Investigators have spoken.

    Three quick observations regarding these two concerns:

    1. What is the line of demarcation marking time being too long ago? One decade? Two? Three?
    2. What about events that have happened more recently than that obscure line of demarcation?
    3. What investigators? AoR? That folly of an “investigation”?

    Not knowing the man, my observation and opinion is that he simply does not want to know facts or see the faces of the abused, so that he can maintain his friendship with CJ, and thereby his position of power as “leader” within this movement.

  200. Abi Miah wrote:

    Criminal checks are necessary as they catch the tiny minority that have been caught. The problem is, they give a sense of false security because most abusers have not been caught. In Cafferty’s case, as far as we know, he would have come out clean as a whistle on a criminal check as far as sexual offense goes. There needs to be a much more comprehensive system in place to protect children even while at church. And as was pointed out, this does nothing to protect children off premises. How many parents do you know who have asked the volunteer teaching Sunday school to babysit for instance? That is parents’ naivete. (It’s an amplification of the general parental naivete about babysitters and their ability to discern who is and is not safe. Asking a church volunteer to babysit seems even more safe than the next door neighbor. That’s a false assumption, but one many parents make.)

    I agree, a criminal check and training would go hand in hand. Also an understanding that not all “sins” can be erased with repentance.
    As a parent, I’ve always been involved in my kids activities (daycare centre board, assisting the soccer team, getting to know their friends parents and the like). I think this is also part of “the best defence is a good offence”. My kids don’t go to Sunday school but if they did, I would be involved there too. The parents can get to know the teachers/caregivers. Even audit some of the classes with your kids to observe the interactions. Above all – listen to your kids. One of my co-workers daughters didn’t like going to a friends house – the dad was “creepy”. Nothing happened but my co-worker kept her daughter away.
    I think the problem in some of the churches is the high pressure to conform. You aren’t permitted the freedom to remove your kids from Sunday school or the youth group. I’m only speculating as I’ve never been in that situation, but that’s the vibe of Neo-Calvinism that I’m picking up here, but certainly that groupthink would exacerbate the situation.

  201. Not 100% related to the topic, but I thought some may be interested about this. CJ Mahaney, Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell, all from SG Louisville, will be speaking at a day conference in Bristol, UK on September 2016.

    http://sguk.org/events/

  202. Burwell wrote:

    Lydia, please link to Trueman’s exoneration of Mahaney. I cannot find it on MOS. Thanks.

    Burwell, The post on the 3 man panel that declared Mahaney fit for ministry has been removed from the Sovereign Grace Churches website. You can view the Deebs post of the panel here:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/03/is-c-j-mahaney-fit-for-ministry/

    I have the text from the SGM blog, but a bit long to paste in the comment section here and the above link covers is quite well. Email me if you want to see what I have. toddlwilhelm@gmail.com

  203. Martos wrote:

    when I was still a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church I knew plenty of godly and loving Adventist people… However, that has never stopped me from thinking that the Adventist belief system has a great number of problems, to say the least. And I also think (this is a personal opinion, not based on statistics of any sort) that the Adventist congregations I knew through the years had a greater proportion of people who loved ‘extremes’ than any other church I’ve been involved with since I left.

    Anecdotally it would also appear (allegedly) that they have spawned more cults than most.

  204. It would be nearly impossible for a 12 year old (or an adult) to shoot themselves with a shotgun. (Too long, hard to reach the trigger in that position, with enough strength to actually pull the trigger IF you could reach the trigger to begin with.) And if someone is going to commit suicide, well, I have never heard of anyone shooting themselves in the stomach. Even if you’re a kid who doesn’t understand anatomy, this doesn’t make any sense.

    Then the ambulance took too long to get there?

    Look, I am usually not an alarmist, nor a conspiracy theorist but none of this story makes sense to me. I hope that this is revisited by the police. There is no statute of limitations if this was more than a suicide.

    All that said, I can’t imagine what this woman and her children are going through. Too tragic for words.

  205.   __

    “When It Rains, It Pours?”

    huh?

    “…it’s impossible for all these (ed. SGM) pastors to have known about abuse and not to have told Mahaney how they were handling it. “It just didn’t work that way.” -Brent Detwiler

    What?

    SGM/SGC members, ‘stand up’ and tell your stories!

    ATB

    Sopy

  206. Steve240 wrote:

    I am not sure if someone else has mentioned this yet but last I heard CLC hasn’t made any type of announcement of this arrest. It is sad that CLC Members have to find out online that a child molester who is a member of their church was arrested.
    Why aren’t they informing members.

    Mitchell finally sent out an email to members yesterday.
    Sorry, I deleted it; maybe one of the others can post it?
    It’s about you would expect. : /

  207. Jane wrote:

    my community church in NZ has been preaching discipleship constantly with many references to TGC people like Tim Keller. CJ Mahaneys book the Cross Centred Life is on their recommended booklist.
    I haven’t been back.

    Neo Calvinism has spread to New Zealand.

    I’m sorry you lost your place of fellowship but I am glad you have “run for the hills”…

    On a side note, I find little originality in Australian churches (I attended different denominations) and stopped attending many years ago, in a similar scenario to yours. In my opinion they follow the American Christian trends closely, one reason why I read TWW. In a bit of reverse religious neo-colonialism, Hillsong is establishing itself in the US (if I heard another Hillsong praise & worship song I was going to puke). I did find a little Anglican church where if you attended really early broke the mould on all of my prejudices. Some have stuck their necks out with social justice issues, eg offering a safe place of refuge for asylum seekers against the wishes of the government. I can’t stay cynical or derogatory when the church champions causes like that.

  208. Kayphil wrote:

    I cannot believe that friends still attend CLC. I cannot believe that they believe their church, pastors and members are being persecuted. Sick.

    It’s because they are so trained to be blind. That was hugely eye-opening for my daughter. He CLC boyfriend’s family were very nice, All American good family as far as both her and I could tell. They have been at CLC from the beginning. The kids grew up in the school there too. When she began bringing up the information from the blogs, they were all so nicely ignorant about it all that she thought she would help them out. She printed off pages from sgmsurvivors totally naive herself that anyone could have their heads in the sand so far. That was when she found out how sinful it was to read the blogs. I don’t know if his parents and family still attend there, but last I heard was back when CJ left and they were hoping for good things with Josh. I just don’t care anymore what I say on the blogs anymore. I was pretty hushed back then trying to protect people’s privacy. I could feel this strange heavy feeling on my heart when I thought about writing more. But now I recognize that feeling to be pure evil.

  209. Jen Cahalane wrote:

    Kojo Nnamdi Show (WAMU 88.5 if you’re in the DC area) will be doing a show about SGM, CLC, Fairfax church, with guests Pam Palmer (mother of abuse survivor), Mark Mitchell (pastor at CLC), and Tiffany Stanley…

    Arrgh! I wish I could listen to that, but I’m not sure I can; it’ll be playing in the middle of the night Japan time.

    Maybe the radio station can archive it…

  210. Patti wrote:

    Kayphil wrote:
    I cannot believe that friends still attend CLC. I cannot believe that they believe their church, pastors and members are being persecuted. Sick.

    It’s because they are so trained to be blind.

    As Reichsminister Albert Speer put it, they have “arranged their mind” to see nothing wrong with CLC. Just as Speer arranged his mind as he advanced within the NSDAP.

  211. Jen Cahalane wrote:

    Kojo Nnamdi Show (WAMU 88.5 if you’re in the DC area) will be doing a show about SGM, CLC, Fairfax church, with guests Pam Palmer (mother of abuse survivor), Mark Mitchell (pastor at CLC), and Tiffany Stanley (the journalist who wrote the recent piece in The Washingtonian about the abuse scandals and CJ’s downfall).

    WAMU 88.5 in the DC area?

    Eagle, you’re in DC; is it possible you could either record or review this interview?

  212. Lydia wrote:

    The pew sitters have been indoctrinated to believe that negative truths are sinful.

    Patti wrote:

    It’s because they are so trained to be blind. That was hugely eye-opening for my daughter… She printed off pages from sgmsurvivors totally naive herself that anyone could have their heads in the sand so far. That was when she found out how sinful it was to read the blogs.

    In Scientology parlance: Entheta. That means any information that is negative or derogatory about their organization, and which members are trained to ignore and avoid at all costs. Even if it’s true.

    Wilful blindness, as so many here have said. They’re so convinced that their group has all the answers, if it’s actually guilty of terrible evil, they don’t want to know.

  213. Hi Patti, Long time! I hope all is well in your world. I saw you said, “boyfriend” instead of ex. Are they still together? I hope your sweet girl is well, too.

  214. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    In Scientology parlance: Entheta. That means any information that is negative or derogatory about their organization, and which members are trained to ignore and avoid at all costs. Even if it’s true.

    Didn’t Orwell call this “doubleplusun-” something in that novel-length political cartoon of his?

    i.e. Anything other than The Party Line (of the moment) not only cannot possibly exist, but has never existed?

  215. Patti wrote:

    They have been at CLC from the beginning. The kids grew up in the school there too.

    Which adds the “a fish doesn’t know it’s wet” factor to the mix.

    Just like defenders of slavery 150 years ago; it was all around them, with thousands of years of historical precedent, it was what was “normal” and Abolition was “That’s Crazy Talk!”

  216.  __

    “Disparaging The New Calvinist Movement?”

    hmmm…

      Forget proverbial pew peons, many Christians now believe pedophiles are among this movement’s many leaders.

    huh?

    How else to explain events unfolding in this tight-knit movement.

    What?

    Skreeeeetch !

    Krash!

    What better way for the perp followers of this movement to hide themselves, than for the leaders of this movement to be potentially ‘suspect’ among the aparrenly growing religious perp family of this movement.

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  217. Melody wrote:

    Has he sat down with victims and their families on their turf and listened to how CJ behaved towards them in their pain? Has he considered how his family might feel if not celebrities and in similar circumstances?! Has he taken the time to read the blogs, legal allegations, and journalistic reports in detail?

    Maybe Anyabwile, like Challies before him, has decided that careful investigation about his friends and associates does “not reflect good time management”.

    http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign-grace-ministries

  218. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    It is a lot like the folks who grew up in the seeker megas. They don’t know that they don’t know. They spit out the platitudinal defenses they were taught. I don’t even bother with them. It is like they become stepford people when it comes to church. Otherwise they carry-on with successful secular careers. I don’t get it. They absolutely cannot connect the dots.

  219. @ Burwell:
    It is very sad and frustrating. I am not sure what is worse. To be all in the movement or to try and rehab yourself by pretending you were not a part of an evil debacle by exonerating an evil man. Why not come clean? Because it would cost him to mention names.

  220. Lydia wrote:

    They absolutely cannot connect the dots.

    They don’t want to connect the dots. It’s dangerous to not hoe the row the way you’re told you must hoe it. The chances loom large that you’ll feel the whip, you’re so-called ‘friends’ (in the mega) might desert you, and when worst comes to worst, you’ll realize that you’re very possibly ‘not saved’ and have only hell to look forward to.
    Acting on one’s conscience is and always has been very costly.

  221. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    As Reichsminister Albert Speer put it, they have “arranged their mind” to see nothing wrong with CLC. Just as Speer arranged his mind as he advanced within the NSDAP.

    When I read Speer’s “Inside the Third Reich” many many years ago I found it instructive how someone could get drawn into such evil one step at a time. Back then I would never have thought it applicable to so many church leaders.

  222. Muff Potter wrote:

    Haitch wrote:
    Last bit of my rant and I’ll close – nowhere did the (now) women receive compensation. I believe there should have been substantial reparation paid by the perpetrators.
    Rest assured Haitch, the dynamic which bankrupted many a Catholic Diocese here in the States, is the same one that will put many high-profile Calvinista regimes out of business. It’s really just a question of time. The courts are rapidly losing their squeamishness when it comes to going after big-name Protestant shamans. The days when it was just those awful ‘Romish Papists’ are no more.

    Oh, how I hope this is true.

  223. @ Stunned:
    Hi Stunned, should be ex, they have both moved on . . . but there is no way they can forget each other… both changed forever because of the other.

  224. Remnant wrote:

    Maybe one reason the Neo-cal leaders won’t condemn Mahaney is because they don’t want to be scrutinized themselves.

    I strongly suspect that this is the truth.

  225. Haitch wrote:

    Anecdotally it would also appear (allegedly) that they have spawned more cults than most.

    Well, I don’t know if this is factually true, but quite a few religious groups were born out of people associated with Seventh Day Adventism. Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Branch Davidians are just two more known cases. Charles Taze Russell was heavily influenced by Adventist people and belief before he went to create the JW, and The Branch Davidians are an offshoot of the Davidian SDAs, themselves an offshoot of SDAs.

    When I was still a regular member of the SDA church, it wasn’t unusual to hear about persons or groups that had peculiar interpretations, messages and visions that supposedly came from God. Often, these were proclaimed as warnings to the church because the SDA institutions were assumed to be corrupted due to, of course, infiltration by Jesuits. In the more mainstream SDA churches I attended they were generally considered a bit wacky, to say the least, but they never failed to gain some following. Congregations were sometimes nearly torn apart due to the teachings of those people.

    Thing is, if you felt that you needed to get more ‘extreme’ in your adventism, there were plenty of options to chose from! The SDA Reform Movement was one of the main choices for many.

  226. Stunned wrote:

    It would be nearly impossible for a 12 year old (or an adult) to shoot themselves with a shotgun. (Too long, hard to reach the trigger in that position, with enough strength to actually pull the trigger IF you could reach the trigger to begin with.) And if someone is going to commit suicide, well, I have never heard of anyone shooting themselves in the stomach. Even if you’re a kid who doesn’t understand anatomy, this doesn’t make any sense.

    Then the ambulance took too long to get there?

    Look, I am usually not an alarmist, nor a conspiracy theorist but none of this story makes sense to me. I hope that this is revisited by the police. There is no statute of limitations if this was more than a suicide.

    All that said, I can’t imagine what this woman and her children are going through. Too tragic for words.

    Thank you! I have been thinking this as well.

  227. dee wrote:

    lifelongfling wrote:
    My husband, a pastor, immediately contacted the police when he was told someone’s tragic story. It did not go well with his superior and after some time he was asked to leave. It was a horribly painful time but we learned a great deal. We have a new church currently and while we want to be a place of mercy and grace we will not risk endangering others (God help us!). Two separate people with sex offense charges have come and gone from our new church due to what my pastor (husband) required of them. This was a clear sign that these offenses were not “just in the past.”
    Thank you for standing up for truth. Your story is so helpful. Would you be willing to tell it, even anonymously as a post?

    Yes I would. I will try to get my words together.

  228. Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    The scandal was supposed to go away…..forgotten.

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Acting on one’s conscience is and always has been very costly.

    I was shocked and devastated this came about from “Christians”. Of course, it forced me to evaluate where I got so off course. It was not the Christianity I grew up in.

  229. Lydia wrote:

    it forced me to evaluate where I got so off course. It was not the Christianity I grew up in

    As a young man starting to venture out on my own, my father advised me that if I ever got on a bus that was going the wrong way, to get off at the first stop and get my bearings right. New Calvinism is the wrong bus.

    The young reformers claim that Southern Baptists who are 50+ are simply being nostalgic, longing for a day that will never return to SBC life. They may be right, since they are now controlling the wheel of the bus, but one would be foolish to continue down the new road without putting up a fuss. We are called to return to the ancient path, not always riding on the wave of the new and improved … which in this case, does not have enough spiritual power resting on it to blow the dust off a peanut.

  230. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Indeed. I wish there was a way (on this side of the experience) to convince them it is so worth the perceived risks….

    TWW and others are doing just that… Freeing one human being at a time…
    Here’s a you tube film clip which illustrates the principle of how powerful and far-reaching individuals can be in building a better world.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jcPZ3GTbQQ

  231. Friend is more concerned about the pastors. She is distraught that they are suffering. Uh huh. I asked what about the victims? Friend said that it all happened so long ago and they needed to get over it. I told her you never get over that sort of abuse. The end of conversation and friendship too for that matter.
    @ Patti:

  232. Muff Potter wrote:

    TWW and others are doing just that… Freeing one human being at a time…

    I understand. One person can cause a ripple effect that they may never be aware of.
    When I walked away from the church I used to be a leader at, it was because the cognate dissonance became too loud to ignore…I began to see the real damage being caused to the victims. At that point, my conscience would not allow me to remain silent and I made a choice to stand with the victim against the sexually abusive pastor (cult leader)…even to the point of being a witness in a civil lawsuit. It cost me most of the peoplee I thought were friends and the “belonging” to what I thought of as a family. I wasn’t even sure if I was going to be damn ed for it.
    What did I gain?
    * Self respect
    £ A friend that is closer than anyone in that cult will ever be allowed to have *friendships were discouraged)
    * A chain reaction of cognate events that brought my own childhood abuse to the surface to be dealt with
    * A far clearer understanding of the difference between religion and God
    * A scarier but richer life
    * Learning that I can live without the proverbial Sword of Domacles (you’ll be deceived and go to hell, you’re not doing it right so you’re excluded from the blessings) hanging over my head

    Yeah. That is what I wish I could convey. But there is none so blind as one who will not see. And fear is a formidable blinder.

    I pray for the mother and daughter in this situation. And for justice….

  233. Haitch wrote:

    Ann wrote:
    Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
    Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

    In my experience the line of demarcation falls not along gender lines, but along those-who-make-a (substantial)-living-off-the-church lines. I have seen numerous “leading ladies” stand by their corrupt pastor husband in covering up sexual abuse and other crimes.

  234. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    seriously deluded

    That adequately describes the lot of young, restless and reformed who are following Pied Piper into the wilderness. So sad to see a generation of otherwise intelligent and talented be led astray. This whole movement has taken on a strange and disturbing spiritual dimension.

  235. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    In my experience the line of demarcation falls not along gender lines, but along those-who-make-a (substantial)-living-off-the-church lines. I have seen numerous “leading ladies” stand by their corrupt pastor husband in covering up sexual abuse and other crimes.

    I actually agree. I was being slightly naughty and wanting to stimulate some discussion on this.

  236. Mark Mitchell posted a video regarding Caffery’s arrest. https://vimeo.com/161121430

    Starting about 11:47, MM says, “i do believe our children’s ministry processes and policies are robust. Obviously over the years, we’ve made adjustments, we’ve added things, we’ve included counsel from additional personnel, professionals and so forth, so we’ve changed we’ve grown we believe that our children’s ministry is as safe as ever. Um, now, in the past, like I said, you knows we’ve added things so today we believe our policies are very robust, ”

    Never having heard the man speak before, I have to say he sounds sincere. It seems like he has a good heart and wanted to speak candidly.

    But this statement above is full of weirdness to my ear.

    Most importantly, how can CLC have added things (pesky things like gasp, professionals!) in order to have a robust, safe ministry and then claim that is was as safe as ever before in the history of CLC prior to making these changes? To say they have “grown” indicates that they were lacking previously.

    Furthermore, I got the distinct impression that when he said, “now, in the past….” hecaught himself and had to change direction. I feel he was going to admit that in the past, they were lacking, but he realized he had to spin his words to say, we are as strong today as we were in the past even though we’ve take all these steps in recent years to be as strong as we were in the past.

    It makes no sense to the discerning ear.

  237. CLC leadership was extremely arrogant when I had the displeasure of dealing with them regarding a family that was in membership with them and in turmoil with ours. Their sister church plant pastors are arrogant as well. Pride will thoroughly destroy people and the innocent (children). The many folks I knew who attended there seemed so gullibly impressed with the building complex (33 million $ I think) and worship services that they were incapable of thinking critically about signs of spiritual abuse continually shown by the leadership.

    @Stunned – regarding your comment about the almost impossibility of a 12 yr old committing suicide with a shotgun – it is actually quite simple given the variables in gun barrel lengths, trigger sensitivities, and the fact that discharge can be easily done via bumping the stock against the ground or hard object with trigger set, or using a tool like a stick or long rod. 12 yr olds can be very smart.

  238. “Abuse Survivors Want Conference Speaker Removed” https://baptistnews.com/2016/03/31/abuse-survivors-want-conference-speaker-removed/

    An article posted yesterday on Baptist News Global notes “SNAP leaders called on conference organizers Mark Dever, Albert Mohler and Ligon Duncan to withdraw this year’s invitation to Mahaney …”

    Of course, those of us who have been following this for years know that ain’t going to happen! These guys will stick together no matter what.

    When Lord when?

  239. Bill M wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    As Reichsminister Albert Speer put it, they have “arranged their mind” to see nothing wrong with CLC. Just as Speer arranged his mind as he advanced within the NSDAP.

    When I read Speer’s “Inside the Third Reich” many many years ago I found it instructive how someone could get drawn into such evil one step at a time. Back then I would never have thought it applicable to so many church leaders.

    Screwtape said to Wormwood that the best route to “Our Father Below” is the subtle, gradual one. One little teensy step at a time.

    And as for Speer, he ended up one of the Inner Ring, courtier of the charismatic cult leader who ruled the country (an absolute monarch in all but name). Actually had some rapport with the cult leader/monarch over the common ground of artistic endeavors, to the point the cult leader/monarch assigned him to rebuild the capital to become the grandest city in the world. Nothing courtiers haven’t done around monarchs over and over again; what is the price of getting into such a position?

  240. dee wrote:

    @ mirele:
    @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    I kept asking him if he ever received any donations from CJ mahaney. He kept ignoring y question. I believe the answer to that question will answer many other questionsWe know CJ gave money to Mark Dever/CHBC, Mohler/SBTS and Wayne Grudem (for his own self.) All three of them are staunch allies of CJ/SGM. I have a feeling we have only scratched the surface.

    Occasional reader, rare commenter here, and member of CHBC. I feel the need to address the implausibility of the documented monetary donation of 10,000 dollars to CHBC from Mahaney (I don’t know if this was from CLC to CHBC, or from Mahaney personally) as evidence of influence of future decisions of M Dever/CHBC. 10000 is no small amount of money to me and my family, but the budget of CHBC, even when the donation was made, (the church being larger now) would be a fraction of a percent of the annual budget (I know this from sitting through annual budget meetings with actual numbers).
    Secondly, if a 10000 or more donation gave an individual or group special treatment at CHBC, then my wife and I apparently have a number of favors to call in at some point, since our annual giving meets that threshold.
    That is all. My comment only addresses this specific allegation.