First? Absolutely crazy story. And sickening.

Ann wrote:

Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???

Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

I think I’m going to throw up. There are so many red flags–why was nothing done??? First and foremost, though, I am of the opinion that CLC needs to be held to account in a very public way. Who knows how many young victims of this man are at the church. We know that child sexual abusers don’t usually stop with one, and this man worked in ministry.

To the wife and daughter, I would give you each a hug (everyone says I give good hugs) and know that you are in my thoughts before God.

I read the article on Brent’s website the other day and my initial thought was, the churches response to this will speak volumes as to whether or not they have learned anything from the Nathan Morales debacle and the ongoing original lawsuit. The closing statement on thouarttheman.org I believe is spot on. If you leave your child in the children’s ministry at CLC, you need to have your head examined.

maybe the government should step in and control facilities that do not screen for child molesters and who set up services for children . . .

looks like Churches that do this kind of thing are profoundly irresponsible and need the intevention of authorities BEFORE victims are attacked by those the Church brings in and turns loose on these children

religious freedom? ah, no . . . NO ONE has the ‘freedom’ to abuse children, or to sanction it by ‘looking the other way’ or specifically by setting up situations where perverts are allowed access to victims

what is going on is that some who facilitate child sexual abuse have been allowed to operate freely under the guise of ‘freedom of religion’ . . . they need to be closed down, especially after proving that they will continue facilitating perversion to occur . . . God have mercy!

Just when you think you’ve heard it all…so incredibly sad for these children and the many people who systematically fail them. My heart aches, God have mercy.

As a wife and mother, I literally cannot fathom reading those things in my husband’s book and not running 110 mph in the opposite direction :/ I’m glad that she turned him in, under whatever circumstances. May justice truly be Swift and fierce against ANYONE and EVERYONE who had a part in being negligent to protect children from this monster.

dee wrote:

@ Divorce Minister:
There was a pastor who did. That pastor, if not CJ, was answerable to him. CJ gets no write off from me. Real leaders take responsibility which is not what I have even seen from CJ.

Absolutely 100% agree.

“Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, ‘The LORD does not see us’ … Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.” (Ezekiel 8)

American Christianity will be amazed when the New Calvinism bubble breaks and its Together for Calvinism elite fall from grace. God sees the deception and will have His day when He breaks the blood pact of the New Calvinist leaders who have taken a generation astray into the aberrations of reformed theology.

There is a long term pattern out of SGM of very sick behavior from the leaders. They are either stupid or totally corrupt.

This one was so obvious I am wondering what on earth was going on for them to ignore it. Just by Todd’s review we can see this guy is most likely sociopathic.

Was he so much like the leadership he fit right in….the whole cheesy sinner/love shitck we saw in SGM wiki leaks?

That place was/is a shepherding cult. Al Mohler and Mark Dever promote shepherding cults. Hello SBC!!!

My other thought is some celebs think they are so important that if they rally around one of their own and pretend they are innocent that will keep working no matter what comes out. The Neo Cals are showing us their true colors over and over. So many young men corrupted.
So many leaders with delusions of grandeur.

So many children tortured and hurt.

That church attracted pedophiles.

@ Divorce Minister:
You will never win an argument with a Neo Cal dude bro. If Mohler and Dever shared a stage with him, he must be OK. Never ever imagine the rank and file young men of T$G are independent thinkers. They are immersed in cult of personality.

Mercy’s Mama wrote:

Just when you think you’ve heard it all…so incredibly sad for these children and the many people who systematically fail them. My heart aches, God have mercy.
As a wife and mother, I literally cannot fathom reading those things in my husband’s book and not running 110 mph in the opposite direction :/ I’m glad that she turned him in, under whatever circumstances.

Yes, glad that she turned him in. I am confused about how widely spread the book was distributed. Should we assume the wife read it? Was it published privately or publicly? If the mother did read the book, there will be a lot of work to do in that relationship with her daughter. If she read it but a pastor read it and seemed to approve and not express concern, I wonder if that influenced her. Who was in charge of children’s ministry during this time? This book was republished after the sexual abuse scandal broke, right? You would think they would gave been hypersensitive to child security at that point.

According to the date given for the daughter’s birthday and the start of the abuse, the sexual abuse started on the child’s 5th birthday.

Let that sink in.

It continued until she was 15 by the dates in the documents.

Abi Miah wrote:

Yes, glad that she turned him in. I am confused about how widely spread the book was distributed. Should we assume the wife read it? Was it published privately or publicly? If the mother did read the book, there will be a lot of work to do in that relationship with her daughter. If she read it but a pastor read it and seemed to approve and not express concern, I wonder if that influenced her. Who was in charge of children’s ministry during this time?

I would think wife number two read the book. If you read between the lines of Caffery’s book you can sense much is wrong with him. Wife number one plotted to leave with her remaining 2 sons for quite some time. She and her two sons one had died from cancer. Caffery initially refused to let him get treatment, insisting on praying for his healing. The day the son died Caffery was playing the tourist with some relatives! He said it was God’s will that he wasn’t there to see him die! People from the church helped the wife and kids move without Caffery’s knowledge.

Caffery’s step-son, the son of wife number two, did not care for Caffery at all. Caffery said this was because after he remarried he insisted on removing his step-son from public school and placing him in a Christian school. He also admitted that he and the step-son had different expectations. The step-son had hoped for somebody to play sports with him and Caffery saw the relationship as one where he was to teach the child how to be a responsible person. Wife number two almost divorced Caffery, they separated for one year. Caffery later said that his step-son was happier when he lived alone with his mother, most likely because he had more freedom. After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest. He died later in the hospital. Caffery recalls holding the boy and asking him why he did this, to which the boy could only manage to respond with some unintelligible sound. Then Caffery told him to go and be with Jesus. Caffery never speaks of how this affected his wife, but it must have shattered her life. Pure conjecture here, but I would guess Caffery was abusing this boy. If so, can you imagine the horrors he went through? And as he lay dying his tormentor is the last person he sees! Caffery mentions that it took the ambulance a very long time to respond to their call. He went outside and saw them waiting at the end of the street. Supposedly they had to wait for police to get to the scene first and declare that it was safe for the medical personnel to enter the house. Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but if it were me I would have immediately put the child in my car and raced to the nearest ER. But there are just so many things in this book that don’t make logical sense.

@ Divorce Minister:
Of course they knew. The place was never *that* big, not like contemporary megachurches.

Re. Brent Detweiler’s constant use of full given names in these cases… that is wrong. Just plain wrong.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but if it were me I would have immediately put the child in my car and raced to the nearest ER.

That’s because you’re not one of God’s Predestined Elect.

Here is what I got up on Friday. Here is the title….

From D.A Carson to Steve Estes the Following Question Must be Asked: Is the Evangelical Free Church of America a Safe Place for Sexual Assault Victims?

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/03/26/from-d-a-carson-to-steve-estes-the-following-question-must-be-asked-is-the-evangelical-free-church-of-america-a-safe-place-for-sexual-assault-victims/

Last post 🙂

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/03/28/analysis-of-the-southeast-district-of-the-evangelical-free-church-of-america/

siteseer wrote:

This guy had red flags sticking out all over him. You have to be blind to miss that.

They weren’t blind, they did see the red flags with Caffery. One “pastor” at CLC suggested Caffery eliminate the red flags from his autobiography if it were reprinted.

The leaders at CLC loudly proclaimed they had changed and left the past behind. This revelation gives the lie to those assertions. They are still in damage control and now they have another mess to coverup. I’m sure they are up to the task, they have a lot of experience.

@ Todd Wilhelm:
Sociopath. The dead giveaway? “Caffery had to teach the stepson to be a responsible adult” instead of build a relationship with him. The fact that Caffery saw himself as capable of doing such after all that had transpired is typical.

This man has been a walking human destroyer and used religion for cover. I hope they throw away the cell key. I am weary of these destroyers and their quest for control and attention.

siteseer wrote:

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest.

Maybe I shouldn’t say this but I sure hope this was investigated thoroughly.

What I was thinking, too.

Last night, I posted the following on SGMSurvivors…and will add that it’s clear that perverts targeted that church because they gave out ‘get out of jail free’ cards. If one guy had been brought up on charges and children protected, it’s likely the others might have turned tail and taken their sick perversions with them. But instead, at least one perp was glorified. So SGM became a perp magnet.
##
“When reading the latest CLC alleged abuser story, a few things crossed my mind. It seemed clear on the police info that he is being accused of molesting a child from the date of his daughter’s fifth birthday to the last day of 2014. My heart aches for this child and her mother; Brent added a note to say he had been told the perp was turned in by his wife. Good for her — I can’t imagine what she is going through. I hope CLC gives her financial and spiritual help of the greatest kind.

Anyone who read what looks to me like a narcissistic vanity-press book had to know that this man had a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing a daughter. In other words, he wanted / fantasized / pictured himself sexually abusing a young female. The idea that incestuous sexual abuse is completely different than other sex abuse, from what I have read, is nonsense. If family victims are available, it is much easier & more convenient to abuse them – and easier to control their silence. However, if family victims are not available, perps will look elsewhere.

The fact that the pastors knew of this man’s temptation (what he called fear) but did not see it as a disqualification for working in children’s ministry is almost unbelievable. Either they were naive and uneducated enough to think that other females were safe because what he really wanted was incest; or they were just plain stupid enough to swallow the grace and mercy verbiage spouted and printed in the self-published cesspool of Narcissa. Publication of this book was nothing more than a manipulation tactic. “See what a great guy I am? I told you I had this perversion, but I have ‘pulled myself up by my bootstraps’ (guess the pastor/editors missed that blatant self-promoting statement) and have been cured. This’ll protect me in court.”

This man did not have a daughter till 1999 when he was 49; and apparently began the abuse when she was around 5 years old. Yet he wrote years earlier that he had a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing a daughter. If I were a detective, I’d be wondering who he targeted prior to these charges, because 54 years is a long time to go before acting out on a perversion.

You know, I have heard a lot of confessions from men — but never once have I heard a man say he had a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing a daughter. I haven’t spent any time in men’s locker rooms, but I’d be willing to bet that’s one that’s not often bandied about and if told, might get one punched where it hurts.

Pastors, pay attention. If a guy ever tells you he has a ‘fear’ of sexually abusing his daughter, make sure all the children are safe, then reach for the phone and call a professional sex counselor. This is the highest and brightest red flag I have ever seen.

Lord, help that poor child and her mother, and in Jesus name, please bring an end to the diabolical epidemic of sexual perversion. Amen.
##

CLC are total screaming morons who should be in charge of no-one & nothing.

Haitch wrote:

Ann wrote:
Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

Haitch wrote:

Ann wrote:
Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

Yes! They do. My husband, a pastor, immediately contacted the police when he was told someone’s tragic story. It did not go well with his superior and after some time he was asked to leave. It was a horribly painful time but we learned a great deal. We have a new church currently and while we want to be a place of mercy and grace we will not risk endangering others (God help us!). Two separate people with sex offense charges have come and gone from our new church due to what my pastor (husband) required of them. This was a clear sign that these offenses were not “just in the past.” I only tell you this so you might find some encouragement that there are good men and women in “leadership” in spiritual communities.

Pedophilia is a psychopathic compulsion with a high rate of recidivism. Many are at high risk to reoffend even after prison mandated sexual abuser counselling. If the professionals are at a loss to help then it’s safe to say that most (if not all) pastors are woefully under equipped to “cure” an offender.
I think I’ve said this before, there are sins and then there are sins. I got busted for petty vandalism as a teen. The police were involved, my parents were involved. The victim (a public school) declined to press charges as long I did “community service” for them (cleaning, yard work etc), which I did, after school for the entire fall. That was a sin that I paid for. However, I did not have a compulsion to commit vandalism and pretty much turned my life around. These churches would equate this to be the same as pedophilia.
All institutions where children are accessible are at risk. (sports teams, daycare centres, schools, churches). One of the takeaway lessons from this post is to check what abuse prevention protocols and policies are in place at your church. Are staff trained to look for abuse? Are there criminal checks in place for those directly supervising children (or for that matter any vulnerable attendee)?
One must always remember pedophilia = compulsion. A church rooted in reality would know this and take appropriate steps to protect their own.

How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? Amy Smith kept hammering him about his support of Mahaney, and wouldn’t let up. Boy, did he dodge like a pro. Gregory Hines should tap dance like that.

https://twitter.com/watchkeep/status/714590881207062528

How can anyone so clueless call himself a leader of anything, let alone a church?

Jack wrote:

All institutions where children are accessible are at risk. (sports teams, daycare centres, schools, churches). One of the takeaway lessons from this post is to check what abuse prevention protocols and policies are in place at your church. Are staff trained to look for abuse? Are there criminal checks in place for those directly supervising children (or for that matter any vulnerable attendee)?

Great reminder of what action church members (and leaders!) can do from here on out.
Of note: most churches may have a policy for kids while in children’s ministry – but that protects the kids ONLY for one hour per week while in that Sunday class – people should DEMAND that there is a policy to immediately involve police when there is ANY report of abuse. Much of the sexual abuse perpetrated by CLC members happened in homes or other places during “the life of the church”. That is way too big a loop-hole!

siteseer wrote:

Todd Wilhelm wrote:
After mom and son moved back in with Caffery the step-son managed to pull the trigger of a shotgun aimed at his chest.

Maybe I shouldn’t say this but I sure hope this was investigated thoroughly.

Or did PASTOR pull strings to protect his Pet Pedo?
(It’s been done in the past. Over and over.)
(Helps if PASTOR has made sure he’s a Police Chaplain and under Code of Blue…)

Lifelongfling, I would have to say based on your husbands position and whatever he required of those men this would be a church I would want to attend! Good for him and I wish there were more men like him. That’s a man with character, integrity, and a man who is a tree planted that will not whither away or move to and fro….. thank you for sharing that and please thank your husband for me as he put the welfare of his members above himself. I am asking Ken Ramey to do the same! Billy has yet to receive an apology much less an acknowledgement that he is a victim of the crime of Rape and rape has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality! We need to continually call these men out who harbor abusers and lift up the ones who don’t! Obviously this pastor required more of these men who were offenders not just to protect the little ones but I would dare say that if your truly repentant then these men would welcome additional checks because of the gravity of the crime and level of trust where one has the awesome responsibility of looking out for families and their children. @ Divorce Minister:
lifelongfling wrote:

Haitch wrote:

Ann wrote:
Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

Haitch wrote:

Ann wrote:
Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

Yes! They do. My husband, a pastor, immediately contacted the police when he was told someone’s tragic story. It did not go well with his superior and after some time he was asked to leave. It was a horribly painful time but we learned a great deal. We have a new church currently and while we want to be a place of mercy and grace we will not risk endangering others (God help us!). Two separate people with sex offense charges have come and gone from our new church due to what my pastor (husband) required of them. This was a clear sign that these offenses were not “just in the past.” I only tell you this so you might find some encouragement that there are good men and women in “leadership” in spiritual communities.

Ann wrote:

Brent updated and said the wife did turn him in. She and her kids will need a lot of support.
Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???

Oh, but it’s women who are easily deceived! Obviously. *eyeroll*

These people do know that “Pride” is a sin too, right?

This example demonstrates the fig leaf of legal deniability background checks give churches. The majority of paedophiles don’t have a record that would exclude them from serving in children’s ministry. That is why it is so important that church staff have discernment, common sense, and and eyes wide open observation of volunteers in youth and children’s ministry.

It is incredible to me that this man would be allowed to participate in children’s ministry.

It is incredible to me that staff having counseled this person did not have some kind of accountability system after the daughter was born.

It is incredible to me that this guy would not be referred to a specialist for a full psych workup and treatment.

The fundamental problem is the view among many of the clergy is that whenever a penis gets in proximity of any orifice, it is a sin and not a crime.

correction: “ideas accepted as universal”

@ Todd Wilhelm:
It is really hard for someone to shoot himself in the chest with a shotgun. I hope there was a full investigation.

My heart aches for that poor boy, the other children and stepchildren, and the two wives.

And we know all too well the inadequate and incorrect counsel and advice the wives would have been given at the hands of pastors who couldn’t see ‘fear of molesting a daughter’ as a major problem.

Lydia wrote:

Anybody watch Grantchester on Masterpiece? one vicar preaches a snippet of a sermon we all need to hear and another vicar is protected by his superiors for immoral behavior with an underage a girl.

I watched that episode last night and was struck by the timeliness of it.

I think if Thabiti is a,supporter of C.J. mahaney in any way he needs to be asked those tough questions including any other pastor who supports mahaney. @ Divorce Minister:
Happymom wrote:

Headless,
Your comment about Thabiti was completely uncalled for. There is enough suffering and pain surrounding this issue, do you really have to bring in another painful and volatile subject? Not cool and certainly not helpful.

I hope every parent who had a child in CM during those years starts asking their child some very crucial questions. It can take years for a child to admit to abuse, we know this first hand.

Marquis,
I have no problem asking questions of any of CJ’s supporters, but referring to him as the token black is completely unnecessary. How can we expect dialogue when we start out with that?

A close friend of mine told me that if she gad little children, she wouldn’t put them in children’s church knowing the things she knows about how few of the churches have policies about sex offenders. I have to say I agree with her.

@ Lea:

Yup, I’ve heard this perversion of Scripture before.

@ Happymom:

I will agree that HUG went to far, but to be the devil’s advocate, there is a noticeable pattern of these churches that are mostly interested in the richest, whitest parts of town having just one.

http://www.thevillagechurch.net/about/staff/#group_executive-team

About Thabiti, imagine an executive of Volkswagen saying that their critics don’t have enough of a charitable tone, the person in charge of emissions testing is his super good friend, and he has other really important stuff going on so he’s not going to do anything. I learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption. I think this pearl clutching and shrieking aversion to the basic tenets of professional ethics is what repulses men from church, and not the lack of übermen like *Pastor* Mark Driscoll and John Piper to look up to.

But of course, professional ethics is just demonic and unspiritual.

Nickname wrote:

Lydia wrote:
Anybody watch Grantchester on Masterpiece? one vicar preaches a snippet of a sermon we all need to hear and another vicar is protected by his superiors for immoral behavior with an underage a girl.
I watched that episode last night and was struck by the timeliness of it.

Me too!

@ Happymom:
Hug is family. Don’t be too hard on him.

Stan wrote:

I learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption. I think this pearl clutching and shrieking aversion to the basic tenets of professional ethics is what repulses men from church

Bingo!

KAZ_Few wrote:

When your only concern is yourself and your own personal glory its extremely easy to overlook other people.

Other people than MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE actually exist?

What is wrong with that church that they attract so many abusers?! Do they have radio ads or something on secret pedophile channels??
“Hey You! Are you an unremitting child sexual abuser? Do you need easy access to victims and a sense of security that you won’t get arrested? Well Covenant Life Church is the place for you! With just a few pious words and emotional testimony you can become a Youth Minister and have access to all the children you desire! And if you get caught – no problem! The rapist-friendly leadership team will be there to cover up your crime and harass your victims and their families into silence. Join Today!”

Stan wrote:

@ Lea:
Yup, I’ve heard this perversion of Scripture before.
@ Happymom:
I will agree that HUG went to far, but to be the devil’s advocate, there is a noticeable pattern of these churches that are mostly interested in the richest, whitest parts of town having just one.
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/about/staff/#group_executive-team
About Thabiti, imagine an executive of Volkswagen saying that their critics don’t have enough of a charitable tone, the person in charge of emissions testing is his super good friend, and he has other really important stuff going on so he’s not going to do anything. I learned in an undergraduate professional ethics class that the perception of corruption is corruption. I think this pearl clutching and shrieking aversion to the basic tenets of professional ethics is what repulses men from church, and not the lack of übermen like *Pastor* Mark Driscoll and John Piper to look up to.
But of course, professional ethics is just demonic and unspiritual.

Ironically, standing up for justice is really being a “uberman”…. It takes more guts to stand up to a crisis, not run away like Driscoll did, or try to distance themselves from Driscoll like all of the other good old boys did..

Well, here is the latest update. I still have not gotten an interview. I tried to donate plasma (it pays $50 per time), but the presence of the tumor made me ineligible to donate. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t scared. My rent ($565) is due Friday (4/1) and I am $135 past due on my March bills. Plus still need $450 for April bills plus need money for gas and food. So many of you have already been so generous and I am very grateful. Any additional help would be a godsend. Thank you.

Anne wrote:

Sorry, that may have been too much.

I liked it!

I’m a civil engineer and I took Engineering Ethics, I promise, I think I got an A 🙂

Maybe I tried to explain an abstract concept to succinctly. We were taught to take responsibility for what we may do to create the perception of corruption, even if criticisms are unfair and agendaed. Or, even be proactive about it.

I used to live in a city that voted down red light cameras. The cameras recorded violations for rolling stops at right turns on red. Now, that is not going to create the same kind of disastrous t bone as someone speeding through a red. The City wouldn’t stop recording the right turn violations, and thus it became harder to convince the public that the cameras were for safety and not money.

I think Paul understood this when he said “above reproach” and “well thought of by outsiders”.

Stan wrote:

I’m a civil engineer and I took Engineering Ethics, I promise, I think I got an A
Maybe I tried to explain an abstract concept to succinctly. We were taught to take responsibility for what we may do to create the perception of corruption, even if criticisms are unfair and agendaed. Or, even be proactive about it.
I used to live in a city that voted down red light cameras. The cameras recorded violations for rolling stops at right turns on red. Now, that is not going to create the same kind of disastrous t bone as someone speeding through a red. The City wouldn’t stop recording the right turn violations, and thus it became harder to convince the public that the cameras were for safety and not money.
I think Paul understood this when he said “above reproach” and “well thought of by outsiders”.

Thanks for the explanation. That helps me understand it.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Other people than MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE actually exist?

HUG, people other than MEEEEEEEEEEEE do actually exist. However, those other people exist only for the sole purpose of serving MEEEEEEEEEEE!

patriciamc wrote:

He used that wording to show their corrupt mentality.

I have found through experience that selecting words for maximum impact is often necessary to make the point. Cuts right through the “Stay SWEET” mentality.

Of course, growing up with an Oh-So-POLITE Sociopath in my immediate family probably had a lot to do with it, too. You HAD to exaggerate and go for maximum impact or you would be completely Ignored (“That’s Nice…”).

dee wrote:

Bridget

By allowing him to speak after he dropped out of the 2014 conference is an honor for Mahaney. They are showing everyone that he is an honored T4G teacher/leader.

And so HUMBLE (chuckle chuckle).

Sarah wrote:

The enemy is sin, plain and simple. The enemy is Satan, the father of lies. The enemy is unbelief and deception and wicked, wicked sin.

Sarah, that sounds like a preacher’s platitudes.

What is important (and specific) is that this Neo-Calvinism (more Calvinist than Calvin) seems to attract a LOT of this kind of corruption, attitude, and “wicked wicked sin”. Why is that? Is there something in Calvinism that pulls corrupt types to it? Is there something insidious and corrupting about their Correct Doctrine(TM)? Is it the ego-stroking of being The Elect? Is it the comforting fatalism (and “Not my fault!” excuse machine) of Utter Predestination? Is it the Mass Movement angle of being The Coming Wave?

On the other side of the world, Islam is having some BIG problems. Years ago, a contact of mine in Louisville observed the same symptoms in a Calvinist church he explored as are associated with the types of Islam getting in the news today.

Jeannette Altes wrote:

Well, here is the latest update. I still have not gotten an interview. I tried to donate plasma (it pays $50 per time), but the presence of the tumor made me ineligible to donate. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t scared. My rent ($565) is due Friday (4/1) and I am $135 past due on my March bills. Plus still need $450 for April bills plus need money for gas and food. So many of you have already been so generous and I am very grateful. Any additional help would be a godsend. Thank you.

DEB, DEE! SINCE CHRISTINA PASSED ON THE GOFUNDME OFFER, LOOKS LIKE JEANETTE COULD USE ONE INSTEAD!

@ Kimberly Rock-Shelton:

“The fundamental problem is the view among many of the clergy is that whenever a penis gets in proximity of any orifice, it is a sin and not a crime.”
+++++++++++++++++++

Yes, I agree. christian culture has a sin complex. sin sin sin sin sin. everything’s a sin: from being tired, to having PMS, to any feeling/emotion
that isn’t emanating hearts and flowers, to raising your voice, to being uncomfortable around someone, to an honest mistake, to rape.

it’s ridiculous — anything that doesn’t match up with the smiley and nice act everyone puts on on Sundays must be a sin. things like biology, wear-and-tear of life in general, and true boundary-crossing of crime don’t factor in.

but one thing that’s never a sin: exploiting the non-profit tax code…. no, that’s never a sin.

Max wrote:

Amen Sarah! Sin and its consequences are at the heart of the problem in the American church. Satan has been out and about to deceive the elect. At the core of New Calvinist belief and practice (not old Calvinism) is a tendency to accept things within its ranks that mainline Christianity would not tolerate. TWW has been reporting a steady stream of sins within New Calvinism. It is a belief system that will lead to antinomianism if not curtailed soon.

What would you (just curious) see as the difference between neo-Calvinism and traditional Calvinism?

Headless Unicorn – not preacher’s platitudes, just Biblical truth. And I want anyone reading this to know that I do believe that there are sins that should be prosecuted as crimes, e.g. abuse of any kind. Just because I think the deepest enemy is sin doesn’t mean I think that it can be dealt with simply by prayer or some crap like that. The government does not weild the sword for nothing.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

HUG, thanks – there is one already set up. My aunt talked me into doing it.

http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

Bill, thank you soooo much I can’t believe this. Billy is going to be excited what an incredible gift. Truly it’s God doing something. I can’t express how,deeply moved I am right now after getting off 5he phone with Dee. It’s all of you here. For almost 3 years I endured not just the assault on my child that night but the carnage left behind and a church (ken ramey, the elders (E) , deacons, and those I thought loved us) abandon billy at his darkest hour. As a mother I watched billy ask God why him and nor some other boy because of the nouthetic counseling he received at LBC. He wondered why God picked him and what he did was so bad to deserve to be raped! God has brought us here to find refuge, love, compassion, and a wonderful group of people who believe Billy and support him. What joy this has brought to my heart to know that you love billy and are caring for him in so many ways. I told dee that I still wish it wasn’t my billy and I at times want so bad to go back and save billy from that horror. I know this will never be possible and being here in the care of all of you has helped me cope with what we have been going through. Thank you and it doesn’t ever seem like it’s enough I want to do more to show my gratitude. Thank you Bill. @ Divorce Minister:
dee wrote:

@ Bill M:
You are so awesome! I called Shauna to let her know. She has been sick the last two days. She is going to write a comment when she gets back home. She is so excited. I am willing to help with the shipping, etc.

Sarah wrote:

What would you (just curious) see as the difference between neo-Calvinism and traditional Calvinism?

Hmmm … where would I begin? Abuse of Christian liberties (of which, Driscoll is the poster child) … seeker-friendly style of worship that borders on the irreverent in many places … militant & aggressive (cyberspace is littered with sad stories of stealth and deception to takeover churches)… extremely tribal … arrogance aplenty (determined to restore the gospel that the rest of Christendom has lost!). I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 60+ years and worshiped alongside “old” Calvinists; they have added a good perspective to Scripture in a much more civilized manner than the restless young reformers.

According to this blog post:
“Covenant Life Member & Children’s Ministry Worker, Larry Ellis Caffery, Arrested on Nine Counts of Child Sex Abuse & Two Counts of False Imprisonment”

Caffery wrote in a book:

I had heard about Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg and decided to check it out [in 1996]. I knew this church had a very large congregation, and I thought it would be easier for me to find a new Christian wife. I felt uncomfortable during my first visit because of the size of the congregation

If you’re a pedophile, how about not looking for a wife? Stay single.

And don’t go looking for a wife at a church.

I’m a single lady. I don’t wander into N.A.M.B.L.A. (pro pedo group) meetings because I’d rather not marry a pedophile.

I don’t think single women in churches are expecting that Joe ‘Bible Thumping’ Smith chatting them up in Sunday School is secretly attracted to little boys or girls. No woman wants to marry that.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

What is important (and specific) is that this Neo-Calvinism (more Calvinist than Calvin) seems to attract a LOT of this kind of corruption, attitude, and “wicked wicked sin”. Why is that? Is there something in Calvinism that pulls corrupt types to it? Is there something insidious and corrupting about their Correct Doctrine(TM)? Is it the ego-stroking of being The Elect? Is it the comforting fatalism (and “Not my fault!” excuse machine) of Utter Predestination? Is it the Mass Movement angle of being The Coming Wave?

Based on past experience, I think that there are people who, for whatever reason, are attracted to ‘extremes’. With that I mean extreme beliefs, attitudes or behaviours. And they will tend to gravitate towards belief systems that cater to those ‘extremes’. For example, if they are in a church or religious group that holds seemingly-moderate beliefs or opinions on particular topics they consider important, it is likely that they will move to become part of another group that holds stricter or more ‘extreme’ opinions.

Don’t misunderstand me! I strongly believe that evaluating particular opinions and beliefs and changing them accordingly is important, and it is the right to do at times… I did it myself 8 years ago and I’ve never regretted it! If that wasn’t a good thing to do, then people would never leave cults, abusive churches or unhealthy belief systems.

However, the desire of looking for something ‘better’, which is not bad in itself, may lead people towards more ‘extreme’ but not necessarily healthier belief systems. Some will do it with the best intentions, but others are simply attracted by what the new group offers. Actually, it’s possible the latter are actually looking for something ‘righter’ rather than something ‘better’ or healthier, if that makes any sense.

Similar to what Sarah said, when I was still a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church I knew plenty of godly and loving Adventist people… However, that has never stopped me from thinking that the Adventist belief system has a great number of problems, to say the least. And I also think (this is a personal opinion, not based on statistics of any sort) that the Adventist congregations I knew through the years had a greater proportion of people who loved ‘extremes’ than any other church I’ve been involved with since I left.

Neo-Calvinism is, likely, a more ‘extreme’ version of the Reformed/Calvinist belief system… It promises new adherents that they’ll receive the ‘right’ doctrines and they’ll know how to do the ‘right’ things in order to please God the ‘right’ way. Therefore, I’m not surprised to see that it seems to attract a particular type of people.

I hope I’m just a crazy conspiracy theorist, but the lack of sense his book makes, his working with the kids, and his little acorn logo on his book, and the hush-up nature of SGM, and his advertisement in his book of Covenant life, and not leaving out his propensity toward girls, and someone here said “smokescreen” maybe, could the book have merely been a calling card? Ive read all the allegations of the lawsuits. Nothing makes sense about why so much child abuse is going on there.. When my daughter was slightly involved we CLC, she said she is sure that there are big connections beyond that church that church. Everyone needs to be questioned in that church. I bet the innocents all at least know some story close to them that they have been trained to keep secret so no one can connect the dots. Some have simply had enough of course and have walked away from God altogether. They need to be questioned too. It absolutely boggles my mind why her CLC boyfriend at the time could not see the difference between gossip and alerting people for safety. We literally shouted at each other. Sometimes I have felt wrong for causing trouble between them and eventually they split up. But her boyfriend was so hurt about my blogging even though I was careful not to give him away. He had told her to stop talking to me. She told me to stop blogging because he was so hurt he was crying. I had to have a cardiac stent through the whole ordeal. But I rember saying to her back the, 2011, that I feared I would grandkids that I wouldn’t be allowed to see and that I feared I might have grandkids sexually abused at that church. I am shaking about how right that could have been.
Sorry this comment isn’t written well. I am emotional and using my IPad.

@ Patti:
I agree that there are likely many more victims from the past and present that we don’t know about. So glad your daughter is no longer with him!!!!

I think your onto something and No that’s not being a conspiracy theorist. These men operate in code. Interesting Patti wrote:

I hope I’m just a crazy conspiracy theorist, but the lack of sense his book makes, his working with the kids, and his little acorn logo on his book, and the hush-up nature of SGM, and his advertisement in his book of Covenant life, and not leaving out his propensity toward girls, and someone here said “smokescreen” maybe, could the book have merely been a calling card? Ive read all the allegations of the lawsuits. Nothing makes sense about why so much child abuse is going on there.. When my daughter was slightly involved we CLC, she said she is sure that there are big connections beyond that church that church. Everyone needs to be questioned in that church. I bet the innocents all at least know some story close to them that they have been trained to keep secret so no one can connect the dots. Some have simply had enough of course and have walked away from God altogether. They need to be questioned too. It absolutely boggles my mind why her CLC boyfriend at the time could not see the difference between gossip and alerting people for safety. We literally shouted at each other. Sometimes I have felt wrong for causing trouble between them and eventually they split up. But her boyfriend was so hurt about my blogging even though I was careful not to give him away. He had told her to stop talking to me. She told me to stop blogging because he was so hurt he was crying. I had to have a cardiac stent through the whole ordeal. But I rember saying to her back the, 2011, that I feared I would grandkids that I wouldn’t be allowed to see and that I feared I might have grandkids sexually abused at that church. I am shaking about how right that could have been.
Sorry this comment isn’t written well. I am emotional and using my IPad.

@ David (Eagle):
David, is Neo Calvinism taking over the EFCA in South East region happening because pastors they call are Southern Baptists and close proximity to SBC seminaries?

@ dee:
Dee & Deb, you might consider monitoring an SBC resolution under development regarding sexual predators. In a post yesterday on SBC Voices, Bart Barber writes “Millennial Christian leaders come to ministry leadership out of congregations of Millennial believers who are alarmingly antinomian when it comes to their own sex lives.” http://sbcvoices.com/preface-to-a-resolution/

When are Mohler, Piper, Dever and the entire lot of them going to denounce him… That includes John McArthur…. Despicable…

Maybe one reason the Neo-cal leaders won’t condemn Mahaney is because they don’t want to be scrutinized themselves.

Holding one of their buddies to a certain level of behavioral ethics might invite others the freedom to hold them to that level of ethical behavior.

They have an attitude of, “I won’t knock you, don’t you come knocking my door.”

@ Debbylynn:
They will when their following dwindles and it costs them. But I don’t see that happening. Even the older pastors in the SBC are afraid of Mohler. His trustees are rubber stamps. I have seen grown men delete blog posts because he sent his pit bull, York, after them with legal threats

Max wrote:

“Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, ‘The LORD does not see us’ … Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.” (Ezekiel 8)
American Christianity will be amazed when the New Calvinism bubble breaks and its Together for Calvinism elite fall from grace. God sees the deception and will have His day when He breaks the blood pact of the New Calvinist leaders who have taken a generation astray into the aberrations of reformed theology.

Amen, Max. But what can be said for a theology that posits God with damning a large portion of His creation before they ever drew breath, for no other reason than to bring glory to Himself? This is the god they serve, one that damns people – not because of anything they have done or failed to do, but just because their god arbitrarily chooses some and not others.

Opps, because each of them have their own issues, and they do not have the humility to admit it

@ Jeff Chalmers:

Again, the purity of doctrine trumps kids getting molested… As ling as CJ speaks their doctrine, he is cool… I grew up in a different time, but purity of doctrine trumped being an a$$hole then, and it still does….

siteseer wrote:

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? A

He speaks as someone who does not think the destruction of innocent children is important enough to look into.

I wonder how he would feel if one of his own children had been a victim?

@Dee… I think he said $5k

And gets dirt on everyone so they can control them… There are number of examples of this going on….

dee wrote:

Stan wrote:
Because the only real sins are not being in a small group,
That meets weekly to review the pastor’s sermon.

Dee … I found it on my iPhone history. I will email you a screen shot.

dee wrote:

I am willing to help with the shipping, etc.

I sent you an email for details on where to ship. I’ll tweak you here if I don’t hear back in a day or two. The system was orphaned when the owner bought a new laptop. It has plenty of life in it and recognized it wasn’t being used and recalling the need for a computer for Shauna and Billy I asked if the owner wanted to donate it. So I can’t take credit other than being a go-between between extraordinary normal people.

Lydia wrote:

I have seen grown men delete blog posts because he sent his pit bull, York, after them with legal threats

Who are these grown men? What are the blog posts?

elastigirl wrote:

Yes, I agree. christian culture has a sin complex. sin sin sin sin sin. everything’s a sin: from being tired, to having PMS, to any feeling/emotion

Agreed. There’s a vast gulf of difference between obsession with imagined sin and the real stuff that actually causes suffering and misery to others.

dee wrote:

I kept asking him if he ever received any donations from CJ mahaney. He kept ignoring y question.

Bought and Paid For?
(HUMBLY, of course…)

Stan wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Because the only real sins are not being in a small group, too many non Christian friends, and not having every John Piper book.

Don’t forget doubting that Calvin (and PASTOR) is God.

marquis wrote:

Bill, thank you soooo much I can’t believe this. Billy is going to be excited what an incredible gift. Truly it’s God doing something. I can’t express how,deeply moved I am right now after getting off 5he phone with Dee. It’s all of you here. For almost 3 years I endured not just the assault on my child that night but the carnage left behind and a church (ken ramey, the elders (E) , deacons, and those I thought loved us) abandon billy at his darkest hour. As a mother I watched billy ask God why him and nor some other boy because of the nouthetic counseling he received at LBC. He wondered why God picked him and what he did was so bad to deserve to be raped! God has brought us here to find refuge, love, compassion, and a wonderful group of people who believe Billy and support him. What joy this has brought to my heart to know that you love billy and are caring for him in so many ways. I told dee that I still wish it wasn’t my billy and I at times want so bad to go back and save billy from that horror. I know this will never be possible and being here in the care of all of you has helped me cope with what we have been going through. Thank you and it doesn’t ever seem like it’s enough I want to do more to show my gratitude. Thank you Bill.

This is such good news, Marquis! I am so glad to hear that TWW has been a refuge for you and Billy.

@ Mark:

Mark its growing…the new EFCA church plants are Neo-Calvinist. Look at South Carolina those are recent church plants I believe. Some of the other churches I believe were theologically hijacked. But the rate of Neo-Calvinism is greater in the Se District than the Eastern District.

siteseer wrote:

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
How many folks caught the open forum by Thabiti Anyabwile on Twitter yesterday? A
He speaks as someone who does not think the destruction of innocent children is important enough to look into.
I wonder how he would feel if one of his own children had been a victim?

That Twitter feed – specifically Thabiti’s comments – was alarming. It was as if he was saying: “Talk to the hand and not the face.” He really didn’t want to engage with the remote possibility that C.J. could have done wrong. I would call it willful blindness.

dee wrote:

@ mirele:
@ Serving Kids In Japan:
I kept asking him if he ever received any donations from CJ mahaney. He kept ignoring y question. I believe the answer to that question will answer many other questionsWe know CJ gave money to Mark Dever/CHBC, Mohler/SBTS and Wayne Grudem (for his own self.) All three of them are staunch allies of CJ/SGM. I have a feeling we have only scratched the surface.

One Hand Washes Another.

I have been following WBW for a few months now since my community church in NZ has been preaching discipleship constantly with many references to TGC people like Tim Keller. CJ Mahaneys book the Cross Centred Life is on their recommended booklist.
I haven’t been back.

Neo Calvinism has spread to New Zealand.

Would some sort of Nathan to David allegorical story work on these CJ supporters??? Give an equated story, change the names, and type of denomination/group…and then the supporters say “That’s horrible!!!” and then the “Nathan” comes back with “That’s CJ! That’s SGM!!” Yea, I know, it wouldn’t work. Further, people have already tried to draw the parallels between SGM and the Penn State scandal, of which they were all happy to condemn, including Joe Paterno and the assistant coach who were both fired for “knowing” and not doing anything, whom CJ is the equivalent of….this all just boggles my mind!!

THERE HAS TO BE some serious stuff going on here underneath the surface, worse than we might imagine, more prevalent than what is meeting the eye. I am not believing anymore or entertaining the thought that these people are just “confused, ignorant” or biased because of simple relationship and conference and publishing connections. I think there is some cover-ups across the board, not merely pertaining to child sexual abuse or maybe not all, in regard to the TGC/T4G crowd. I have seen too much in these circles to not admit that there is something seriously amiss, and that there’s more to the picture than we’re realizing. The fruits of their behavior are extremely telling. If it was merely about money and popularity, I don’t think CJ would have made it this far nor would they be so supportive of him.

But within SGM, I agree, that there is more rotten there and while what has been uncovered has been horrifying enough, I believe there is more. There always is. There is no other way to describe SGM as other than operating a sort of pedophilia crime ring…and the question seems to now be was it on purpose??? Was there a strategy behind the ring itself, and not just a strategy to cover it up? Was it not merely their doctrine of God and humanity that caused them to look the other way, but is there something more sinister going on where the cart actually came before the horse?

I don’t think these kind of “conspiracy theories” are out of the question anymore.

@ Jane:
Oh my word!

And Nero fiddled while Rome burned…

Darlene wrote:

And where the pew peons confess their sins to the group leader, whereupon the group leader then talks to the elders about the sins of the pew peons.

Party Commissar.

Lydia wrote:

Calvinism is inherently authoritarian so it needs some form of caste control to maintain power.

This current resurgence reminds me of scary political movements of the 20th century that attracted young men.

Like this cheerful and enthusiastic young man?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co

It really bugs me that Brent D left SGM and says he had limited info about the going one their in but then he does what every de flocked religious leader in this century does-create another platform to support himself.Come on ,if you really care so much about the victims why don’t you do something tangible like create a 24 hour prayer support group,create and manage a fund for for the victims to draw from to afford counseling, or in the very least get a real job (can I suggest social worker) and spend the rest of your years contributing to society instead of being one more group that is asking other people to support them.

__

“Blogs Are Providing A Valuable Service…”

  “It’s hard to discuss these abuse cases without feeling grieved in the process. But, I believe we are providing a service and that many who read this blog will take note and hopefully guard their children more carefully. Child abuse is not something spoken about enough in churches…” -Persona
__
ref: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2015/08/20/the-police-report/comment-page-33/#comment-90596

—

Lydia wrote:

They get to feel good about themselves with a timely resolution and things go back to normal with Mohler, Dever,Mahaney at T$G and CJ’s SBC church.

Messengers at the SBC-2013 annual convention attempted to step up to the Mohler/CJ alliance when they approved a resolution “On Sexual Abuse Of Children.”

Without naming Mohler, CJ, and SGM, they certainly had them in mind in the resolution which stated:

“We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”

With the SGM scandal in the news at that time, Dr. Mohler surely knew that SBC was calling him personally to “the highest sense of discernment” in that CJ & SGM possessed “questionable policies and practices in protecting our children”, but Dr. Mohler ignored the resolution and continued about his business. Another resolution of this sort will just be black words on white paper that won’t be personalized and acted upon.

Brent Detwiler could have remained silent and stayed with SGM and collected a salary. He lost quite a bit financially because he blew the whistle on these men. I would encourage you to read about how theyou turned on him because he was trying to do the right thing. I’m not sure what he’s asking for but if this is what God has called him to do then God will use others to provide support. I’m not being rude in the least but you don’t have to financially support him. You to could start a prayer group or counseling fund! It’s your idea so why not try that rather than attack him? Personally it’s partially because of him that I was able to know what happened to pam Palmers daughter and because of dee is why she has become a dear sister to me. How,amazing are these people who take a stand aND go through loss so that me and my son can find comfort. I’m just asking you to look at this from a different point of view. @ Divorce Minister:
Mandavilla wrote:

It really bugs me that Brent D left SGM and says he had limited info about the going one their in but then he does what every de flocked religious leader in this century does-create another platform to support himself.Come on ,if you really care so much about the victims why don’t you do something tangible like create a 24 hour prayer support group,create and manage a fund for for the victims to draw from to afford counseling, or in the very least get a real job (can I suggest social worker) and spend the rest of your years contributing to society instead of being one more group that is asking other people to support them.

Lydia wrote:

Even the older pastors in the SBC are afraid of Mohler. His trustees are rubber stamps.

Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not spiritual gifts. I keep waiting for a prophet of God to walk up to Dr. Mohler and knock him off his high-horse as he shouts “You are the Man!” This thing within SBC has taken on a spiritual dimension that I’m not sure the denomination recognizes.

@ Darlene:
Amen, Darlene. The determinist Calvinist God is not the God I know. The essential tenets of Calvinism misrepresent the very character of God, which is love.

Rose wrote:

Would some sort of Nathan to David allegorical story work on these CJ supporters???

I think it is safe to conclude that if it were King CJ, Nathan would have been led away and never heard from again.

marquis wrote:

Brent Detwiler could have remained silent and stayed with SGM and collected a salary. He lost quite a bit financially because he blew the whistle on these men.

It is not quite so simple, Marquis. He was booted out of SGM (defrocked) before he released the documents (which had nothing to do with the child sexual abuse). He was also one of the main builders of SGM who treated many men and women the same way he, himself, was treated in the end of his reign with SGM. He has stated that he knew nothing of most of the child sexual abuse issues that had gone on, save one that he delt with by calling the police. He didn’t start writing about the child sexual abuse until it started becoming known publicly apart from him. This was well after he was kicked out of SGM. He WAS a big part of the spiritual abuse that devestated hundreds, if not thousands, of people in SGM during his time there. Hopefully you understand the mixed emotions some people have toward Brent, as well as why some people have no respect for him at all.

Ohhh no I understand now. I didn’t realize that. I’m sorry for those who got hurt @ Divorce Minister:
Bridget wrote:

marquis wrote:

Brent Detwiler could have remained silent and stayed with SGM and collected a salary. He lost quite a bit financially because he blew the whistle on these men.

It is not quite so simple, Marquis. He was booted out of SGM (defrocked) before he released the documents (which had nothing to do with the child sexual abuse). He was also one of the main builders of SGM who treated many men and women the same way he, himself, was treated in the end of his reign with SGM. He has stated that he knew nothing of most of the child sexual abuse issues that had gone on, save one that he delt with by calling the police. He didn’t start writing about the child sexual abuse until it started becoming known publicly apart from him. This was well after he was kicked out of SGM. He WAS a big part of the spiritual abuse that devestated hundreds, if not thousands, of people in SGM during his time there. Hopefully you understand the mixed emotions some people have toward Brent, as well as why some people have no respect for him at all.

@ Sopwith:
Thanks for posting those quotes. It’s pretty hard to deny that’s what Calvinism teaches just through logic alone but the quotes are quite useful when a Calvinist says our logic is wrong and that is not what they believe.

siteseer wrote:

Nickname wrote:

It is really hard for someone to shoot himself in the chest with a shotgun.

For anyone! and especially for a 12 year old! I am trying to figure out how it is even physically possible?

“Shorty committed suicide with a little help from us.”
— Charlie Manson

@ Max:
Lydia:

The SBC is a very sick puppy, but the current SBC leaders would almost to a man tell you things are getting better.

@lydia … here is a transcript of a tweet during the conversation:

—-
Thabiti Anyabwile
@watchkeep Don’t think I’ll play “he said”/”she said” w/events I have no knowledge of w/in decades. Better investigators than me have spokn
—-

From what I can determine based on this short, quick tweet, Thabiti has two main concerns.

1. Events happened too long ago for him to concern himself.
2. Investigators have spoken.

Three quick observations regarding these two concerns:

1. What is the line of demarcation marking time being too long ago? One decade? Two? Three?
2. What about events that have happened more recently than that obscure line of demarcation?
3. What investigators? AoR? That folly of an “investigation”?

Not knowing the man, my observation and opinion is that he simply does not want to know facts or see the faces of the abused, so that he can maintain his friendship with CJ, and thereby his position of power as “leader” within this movement.

Remnant wrote:

Holding one of their buddies to a certain level of behavioral ethics might invite others the freedom to hold them to that level of ethical behavior.
They have an attitude of, “I won’t knock you, don’t you come knocking my door.”

And “One Hand Was$he$ The Other…”

@ Remnant:
He does not want to know even as a supposedly pastoral type. Ask victims, they see this all the time.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Rose wrote:
But within SGM, I agree, that there is more rotten there and while what has been uncovered has been horrifying enough, I believe there is more. There always is.

Sounds like a popular phrase from critics of Scientology: “It’s always worse than you think.”

“When it looks Good, IT’S NOT.
— tag line of a D&D dungeonmaster from my college days
When it looks Bad, IT’S WORSE THAN YOUR WORST NIGHTMARES.”

@ Lydia:
Lydia wrote:

Even Carl Trueman exonerated Mahaney for ministry. So see, it’s official!

Lydia, please link to Trueman’s exoneration of Mahaney. I cannot find it on MOS. Thanks.

Mahaney, Chander, Mohler, MacArthur, all of them guilty. They are all frauds, every last one of them. They hide behind scripture and courts and lawyers.

Well, here is a verse and learn it well. James 4:17. Yeah, I went there. If you know what is good and fail to do it, then you have sinned. So, covering up and lying and hiding because of whatever the reason, is no excuse when children and women have been abused. I don’t care about your doctrine or preaching or friends, if you can’t even do what is right.

Another famous man put his spin on this verse, although it is not scripture, when Edmund Burke said all it takes for evil to prosper is good men to do nothing.

Well I guess these men are either good men who do nothing and violate James 4:17 or they are evil.

Sorry for the rant, but I am soooooo done with these guys and their movement.

The scripture quote about missing the weightier matters of the law and scripture was spot on.

Thursday, give a listen to

https://thekojonnamdishow.org/shows/2016-03-31/scandal-roils-a-suburban-church-behemoth

Kojo Nnamdi Show (WAMU 88.5 if you’re in the DC area) will be doing a show about SGM, CLC, Fairfax church, with guests Pam Palmer (mother of abuse survivor), Mark Mitchell (pastor at CLC), and Tiffany Stanley (the journalist who wrote the recent piece in The Washingtonian about the abuse scandals and CJ’s downfall).

@ mot:
The pew sitters have been indoctrinated to believe that negative truths are sinful. Therefore the few who know the big picture either don’t talk, leave or are shamed if they try share concerns.

I am concerned there are many more coverups that may become apparent as people exit the cult mentality, and that this is why these “men” will not denounce CJ. I hope this is not the case, but their refusal to stand up says they love parse from men and do not fear let alone love God as they may protest that they do.
@ Remnant:

Just remember, it is better to have all your theology right than actually go after a celebrity pastor who might be a pedophile, adulterer, murderer?, abuser, etc.

Sorry if this offends, but it is no better than the Catholic Church or Penn State w/Paterno.

Also, I am sick of the parallels, like the blue code w/police and omerta with mob families.

I am sorry of that offends, but the truth is blood is not thicker than water when it comes to truth justice and the weightier matters of scripture and the law of loving God and your neighbor.

Abi Miah wrote:

Criminal checks are necessary as they catch the tiny minority that have been caught. The problem is, they give a sense of false security because most abusers have not been caught. In Cafferty’s case, as far as we know, he would have come out clean as a whistle on a criminal check as far as sexual offense goes. There needs to be a much more comprehensive system in place to protect children even while at church. And as was pointed out, this does nothing to protect children off premises. How many parents do you know who have asked the volunteer teaching Sunday school to babysit for instance? That is parents’ naivete. (It’s an amplification of the general parental naivete about babysitters and their ability to discern who is and is not safe. Asking a church volunteer to babysit seems even more safe than the next door neighbor. That’s a false assumption, but one many parents make.)

I agree, a criminal check and training would go hand in hand. Also an understanding that not all “sins” can be erased with repentance.
As a parent, I’ve always been involved in my kids activities (daycare centre board, assisting the soccer team, getting to know their friends parents and the like). I think this is also part of “the best defence is a good offence”. My kids don’t go to Sunday school but if they did, I would be involved there too. The parents can get to know the teachers/caregivers. Even audit some of the classes with your kids to observe the interactions. Above all – listen to your kids. One of my co-workers daughters didn’t like going to a friends house – the dad was “creepy”. Nothing happened but my co-worker kept her daughter away.
I think the problem in some of the churches is the high pressure to conform. You aren’t permitted the freedom to remove your kids from Sunday school or the youth group. I’m only speculating as I’ve never been in that situation, but that’s the vibe of Neo-Calvinism that I’m picking up here, but certainly that groupthink would exacerbate the situation.

Burwell wrote:

Lydia, please link to Trueman’s exoneration of Mahaney. I cannot find it on MOS. Thanks.

Burwell, The post on the 3 man panel that declared Mahaney fit for ministry has been removed from the Sovereign Grace Churches website. You can view the Deebs post of the panel here:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/03/is-c-j-mahaney-fit-for-ministry/

I have the text from the SGM blog, but a bit long to paste in the comment section here and the above link covers is quite well. Email me if you want to see what I have. toddlwilhelm@gmail.com

Martos wrote:

when I was still a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church I knew plenty of godly and loving Adventist people… However, that has never stopped me from thinking that the Adventist belief system has a great number of problems, to say the least. And I also think (this is a personal opinion, not based on statistics of any sort) that the Adventist congregations I knew through the years had a greater proportion of people who loved ‘extremes’ than any other church I’ve been involved with since I left.

Anecdotally it would also appear (allegedly) that they have spawned more cults than most.

It would be nearly impossible for a 12 year old (or an adult) to shoot themselves with a shotgun. (Too long, hard to reach the trigger in that position, with enough strength to actually pull the trigger IF you could reach the trigger to begin with.) And if someone is going to commit suicide, well, I have never heard of anyone shooting themselves in the stomach. Even if you’re a kid who doesn’t understand anatomy, this doesn’t make any sense.

Then the ambulance took too long to get there?

Look, I am usually not an alarmist, nor a conspiracy theorist but none of this story makes sense to me. I hope that this is revisited by the police. There is no statute of limitations if this was more than a suicide.

All that said, I can’t imagine what this woman and her children are going through. Too tragic for words.

Steve240 wrote:

I am not sure if someone else has mentioned this yet but last I heard CLC hasn’t made any type of announcement of this arrest. It is sad that CLC Members have to find out online that a child molester who is a member of their church was arrested.
Why aren’t they informing members.

Mitchell finally sent out an email to members yesterday.
Sorry, I deleted it; maybe one of the others can post it?
It’s about you would expect. : /

Kayphil wrote:

I cannot believe that friends still attend CLC. I cannot believe that they believe their church, pastors and members are being persecuted. Sick.

It’s because they are so trained to be blind. That was hugely eye-opening for my daughter. He CLC boyfriend’s family were very nice, All American good family as far as both her and I could tell. They have been at CLC from the beginning. The kids grew up in the school there too. When she began bringing up the information from the blogs, they were all so nicely ignorant about it all that she thought she would help them out. She printed off pages from sgmsurvivors totally naive herself that anyone could have their heads in the sand so far. That was when she found out how sinful it was to read the blogs. I don’t know if his parents and family still attend there, but last I heard was back when CJ left and they were hoping for good things with Josh. I just don’t care anymore what I say on the blogs anymore. I was pretty hushed back then trying to protect people’s privacy. I could feel this strange heavy feeling on my heart when I thought about writing more. But now I recognize that feeling to be pure evil.

Jen Cahalane wrote:

Kojo Nnamdi Show (WAMU 88.5 if you’re in the DC area) will be doing a show about SGM, CLC, Fairfax church, with guests Pam Palmer (mother of abuse survivor), Mark Mitchell (pastor at CLC), and Tiffany Stanley…

Arrgh! I wish I could listen to that, but I’m not sure I can; it’ll be playing in the middle of the night Japan time.

Maybe the radio station can archive it…

Jen Cahalane wrote:

Kojo Nnamdi Show (WAMU 88.5 if you’re in the DC area) will be doing a show about SGM, CLC, Fairfax church, with guests Pam Palmer (mother of abuse survivor), Mark Mitchell (pastor at CLC), and Tiffany Stanley (the journalist who wrote the recent piece in The Washingtonian about the abuse scandals and CJ’s downfall).

WAMU 88.5 in the DC area?

Eagle, you’re in DC; is it possible you could either record or review this interview?

Hi Patti, Long time! I hope all is well in your world. I saw you said, “boyfriend” instead of ex. Are they still together? I hope your sweet girl is well, too.

Patti wrote:

They have been at CLC from the beginning. The kids grew up in the school there too.

Which adds the “a fish doesn’t know it’s wet” factor to the mix.

Just like defenders of slavery 150 years ago; it was all around them, with thousands of years of historical precedent, it was what was “normal” and Abolition was “That’s Crazy Talk!”

@ Jeannette Altes:
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
@ Jeannette Altes:

You all are awesome! Thank you!
So far, part of the past due March bill has been paid, my gas tank has been filled, I have a few groceries, and enough to cover April’s rent. All that’s left is the rest of March’s bills ($100) and then April’s bills ($450), plus a little more for groceries.
Again, you all are amazing and I am so grateful!

http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

Melody wrote:

Has he sat down with victims and their families on their turf and listened to how CJ behaved towards them in their pain? Has he considered how his family might feel if not celebrities and in similar circumstances?! Has he taken the time to read the blogs, legal allegations, and journalistic reports in detail?

Maybe Anyabwile, like Challies before him, has decided that careful investigation about his friends and associates does “not reflect good time management”.

http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign-grace-ministries

@ Burwell:
It is very sad and frustrating. I am not sure what is worse. To be all in the movement or to try and rehab yourself by pretending you were not a part of an evil debacle by exonerating an evil man. Why not come clean? Because it would cost him to mention names.

@ Muff Potter:
Indeed. I wish there was a way (on this side of the experience) to convince them it is so worth the perceived risks….

Who is the “PJ” referred to in this post, please?

refugee wrote:

Who is the “PJ” referred to in this post, please?

PJ Smith, the head pastor of CLC.

Remnant wrote:

Maybe one reason the Neo-cal leaders won’t condemn Mahaney is because they don’t want to be scrutinized themselves.

I strongly suspect that this is the truth.

Stunned wrote:

It would be nearly impossible for a 12 year old (or an adult) to shoot themselves with a shotgun. (Too long, hard to reach the trigger in that position, with enough strength to actually pull the trigger IF you could reach the trigger to begin with.) And if someone is going to commit suicide, well, I have never heard of anyone shooting themselves in the stomach. Even if you’re a kid who doesn’t understand anatomy, this doesn’t make any sense.

Then the ambulance took too long to get there?

Look, I am usually not an alarmist, nor a conspiracy theorist but none of this story makes sense to me. I hope that this is revisited by the police. There is no statute of limitations if this was more than a suicide.

All that said, I can’t imagine what this woman and her children are going through. Too tragic for words.

Thank you! I have been thinking this as well.

Lydia wrote:

@ Max:
The scandal was supposed to go away…..forgotten.

Muff Potter wrote:

Acting on one’s conscience is and always has been very costly.

I was shocked and devastated this came about from “Christians”. Of course, it forced me to evaluate where I got so off course. It was not the Christianity I grew up in.

Lydia wrote:

it forced me to evaluate where I got so off course. It was not the Christianity I grew up in

As a young man starting to venture out on my own, my father advised me that if I ever got on a bus that was going the wrong way, to get off at the first stop and get my bearings right. New Calvinism is the wrong bus.

The young reformers claim that Southern Baptists who are 50+ are simply being nostalgic, longing for a day that will never return to SBC life. They may be right, since they are now controlling the wheel of the bus, but one would be foolish to continue down the new road without putting up a fuss. We are called to return to the ancient path, not always riding on the wave of the new and improved … which in this case, does not have enough spiritual power resting on it to blow the dust off a peanut.

Friend is more concerned about the pastors. She is distraught that they are suffering. Uh huh. I asked what about the victims? Friend said that it all happened so long ago and they needed to get over it. I told her you never get over that sort of abuse. The end of conversation and friendship too for that matter.
@ Patti:

Muff Potter wrote:

TWW and others are doing just that… Freeing one human being at a time…

I understand. One person can cause a ripple effect that they may never be aware of.
When I walked away from the church I used to be a leader at, it was because the cognate dissonance became too loud to ignore…I began to see the real damage being caused to the victims. At that point, my conscience would not allow me to remain silent and I made a choice to stand with the victim against the sexually abusive pastor (cult leader)…even to the point of being a witness in a civil lawsuit. It cost me most of the peoplee I thought were friends and the “belonging” to what I thought of as a family. I wasn’t even sure if I was going to be damn ed for it.
What did I gain?
* Self respect
£ A friend that is closer than anyone in that cult will ever be allowed to have *friendships were discouraged)
* A chain reaction of cognate events that brought my own childhood abuse to the surface to be dealt with
* A far clearer understanding of the difference between religion and God
* A scarier but richer life
* Learning that I can live without the proverbial Sword of Domacles (you’ll be deceived and go to hell, you’re not doing it right so you’re excluded from the blessings) hanging over my head

Yeah. That is what I wish I could convey. But there is none so blind as one who will not see. And fear is a formidable blinder.

I pray for the mother and daughter in this situation. And for justice….

Haitch wrote:

Ann wrote:
Question: Do church men ever turn in sexual predators to the police, or is it only women???
Ann, you just asked the billion dollar question.

In my experience the line of demarcation falls not along gender lines, but along those-who-make-a (substantial)-living-off-the-church lines. I have seen numerous “leading ladies” stand by their corrupt pastor husband in covering up sexual abuse and other crimes.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

In my experience the line of demarcation falls not along gender lines, but along those-who-make-a (substantial)-living-off-the-church lines. I have seen numerous “leading ladies” stand by their corrupt pastor husband in covering up sexual abuse and other crimes.

I actually agree. I was being slightly naughty and wanting to stimulate some discussion on this.

CLC leadership was extremely arrogant when I had the displeasure of dealing with them regarding a family that was in membership with them and in turmoil with ours. Their sister church plant pastors are arrogant as well. Pride will thoroughly destroy people and the innocent (children). The many folks I knew who attended there seemed so gullibly impressed with the building complex (33 million $ I think) and worship services that they were incapable of thinking critically about signs of spiritual abuse continually shown by the leadership.

@Stunned – regarding your comment about the almost impossibility of a 12 yr old committing suicide with a shotgun – it is actually quite simple given the variables in gun barrel lengths, trigger sensitivities, and the fact that discharge can be easily done via bumping the stock against the ground or hard object with trigger set, or using a tool like a stick or long rod. 12 yr olds can be very smart.

Bill M wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

As Reichsminister Albert Speer put it, they have “arranged their mind” to see nothing wrong with CLC. Just as Speer arranged his mind as he advanced within the NSDAP.

When I read Speer’s “Inside the Third Reich” many many years ago I found it instructive how someone could get drawn into such evil one step at a time. Back then I would never have thought it applicable to so many church leaders.

Screwtape said to Wormwood that the best route to “Our Father Below” is the subtle, gradual one. One little teensy step at a time.

And as for Speer, he ended up one of the Inner Ring, courtier of the charismatic cult leader who ruled the country (an absolute monarch in all but name). Actually had some rapport with the cult leader/monarch over the common ground of artistic endeavors, to the point the cult leader/monarch assigned him to rebuild the capital to become the grandest city in the world. Nothing courtiers haven’t done around monarchs over and over again; what is the price of getting into such a position?