Another Duggar Disaster – Josh Tantalized by Forbidden Fruit?

"Having something forbidden is exciting, don't you agree?"

Allan Dare Pearce (Paris in April)

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=4836&picture=red-apple-in-hand

Red Apple in Hand

UPDATE (8/20/15, 2:00 p.m.):  Josh Duggar and his parents have just published statements.  (see end of post)

Just when the Duggars are desperately trying to dig themselves out of a deep, dark hole caused by oldest son Josh, the bottom falls out! 

Entertainment Tonight has just broadcast this scandalous report on Josh Duggar.

It seems some hackers who go by the name The Impact Team have been accusing an online cheaters' website of creating fake female profiles for its predominantly male user base and keeping customer information on file even after users paid $19 to have it completely deleted.

According to a New York Post article published earlier today, the online cheaters' website Ashley Madison was hacked, and…

Nearly 10 gigabytes of data was dumped Tuesday night, including customer’s names, personal IP addresses, street addresses, phone numbers, and in some cases, sexual preferences.

Bold faced names implicated in the breach include disgraced reality TV star Josh Duggar — accused of molesting five minors — who signed up using a credit card linked to a billing address that matches his grandmother’s home in Fayetteville, Ark., according to Gawker.

The married man, who was at once time the executive director of the Family Research Council, allegedly paid $986.75 during his two-year subscription, the site reported, noting that his interests included “conventional sex,” “experimenting with sex toys,” “one-night stands,” and “cuddling & hugging.”

The massive list also includes email addresses belonging to big companies and banks, like Bank of America, JP Morgan, Amazon and Boeing.

The NYP article further states… 

… many online reviewers have griped about getting strung along by beautiful make-believe women.

Divorce lawyers say the breach is great for their business.

“I think therapists will be busy first and it will ultimately trickle down to us,” said Manhattan divorce attorney Jacqueline Newman.

“This is going to be something that will not only be destroying marriages, but it will also be destroying businesses and other things like that. The ramifications are going to be pretty significant.”

That's the bad news.  But the good news, according to the NYP article, is that no one's credit card information has been exposed.  (Sorry, couldn't resist 😉 )

A related New York Post article – Ashley Madison admits our users are screwed – reveals…

the hackers threatened to leak nude photos, sexual fantasies, real names and credit card information for as many as 37 million customers worldwide of Ashley Madison, which uses the slogan: “Life is short. Have an affair.”

As you can imagine, the internet is abuzz with the latest Duggar Disaster.  Stories have now appeared in The Blaze, New York MagazineNew York Daily News, Peoplekatv.com and last but not least Gawker. No doubt every American news outlet with be reporting on this latest scandal.  

Furthermore, the shocking news has quickly spread abroad, as evidenced by the following screen shot from the UK Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3204050/REPORT-Josh-Duggar-paid-1-000-multiple-Ashley-Madison-accounts-search-oral-sex-one-night-stands-sex-toy-experimentation-more.html

Gawker, which we believe broke the story, reached out to the Family Research Council (Josh's former employer), The Learning Channel, and the Duggar family for comment.  It promises to provide an update if and when it hears back from them.

When I first learned of the news, this old Otis Redding song, which has been brought back by The Black Crowes came to mind.  Looks like Josh, who shares a website with his wife Anna, has a lot of crow to eat (or worse) now that the jig is up.


Screen Shots of Statements by Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar and Josh Duggar

http://www.duggarfamily.com/michelles-blog?ID=651536de-8b7d-4525-afb0-3f525bc390e1http://www.duggarfamily.com/michelles-blog?ID=651536de-8b7d-4525-afb0-3f525bc390e1

Comments

Another Duggar Disaster – Josh Tantalized by Forbidden Fruit? — 438 Comments

  1. OK, I can’t believe I’m doing this, but absent more evidence, I’m going to give Josh the benefit of the doubt. Not because I don’t believe he couldn’t have done it. But because Ashley Madison had the very bad practice of not verifying email accounts.

    And how do I know this? One day a few months back, my gmail account absolutely got stuffed with all sorts of OMG from Ashley Madison. At first I deleted the e-mails, thinking the solicitations will go away, but they didn’t. So I finally I opened one up and figured out how to get the e-mails to stop. And I did. Kevin Mitnick, famous convicted hacker, said his email address was in Ashley Madison’s files 14 separate times. So I could see Josh Duggar’s address being used this way.

    I have been told that the Duggar entry was accompanied by a $250 payment for a guaranteed affair and a credit card number. But I just wanted to caution people that this isn’t legal evidence, just a dump of evidence stolen by hackers. For all we know the file could have been worked over.

    Besides, that he molested his sisters and another girl is quite bad enough.

  2. @ mirele:

    Thanks for sharing your terrible experience with Ashley Madison. With all the attention that this story is getting, I have little doubt that the truth will come out.

  3. If it was just his email, you might have reason to believe he had been hacked. I'm no Duggar fan, but I live in the state and rub shoulders with many in Christian conservative home school circles. After catching this on radio news on my way home this afternoon, I feel like I have read everything out on the web that can be found at this time–and it looks like the Deebs have, too. Follow their links. His birthdates that were given on the two accounts were very close to his actual birthdate. I think one was exactly one month off and the other was a day off, if I recall correctly. The address reported as linked to the credit card in his name matched his grandmother's address in his home corner of Arkansas. Unfortunately, the allegation has credibility. I'm genuinely sad for his wife and children.  How deep does this pit go? For the sake of the innocent parties, I hope it has hit absolute bottom.

  4. The bottom of the Gawker page had links to other Duggar sex scandal pages under the headline “MORE GOOD CHRISTIAN VALUES”.

  5. I second Mirele’s post. This doesn’t meet a legal standard of proof. It’s not to say that the tabloids have been wrong before, in fact they have gotten plenty right. But…ya just never know.

  6. “Among the type of woman he was allegedly looking for were ‘naughty girl, aggressive / take charge girl, high sex drive and creative and adventurous'”
    — The Daily Mail re Josh Duggar’s Ashley Madison “preferences”

    Doesn’t sound much like the Winsome Gospelly Submissive Biblical type, does it?
    More like the exact opposite of the Good Christian Girl(TM)…

  7. There have been many email addresses linked to higher government and military accounts and I wouldn’t be surprised to see many ministers caught out by this hack. Very sad state of affairs – no pun intended.

  8. If this is a hoax, it seems pretty elaborate, with planted trails that go back to 2013 and only end coincidentally with the scandal from this past May. And yet a big part of me wants it to be a hoax. I want to believe that his issues were conquered years ago, as he has indicated. He’s a human being with a wife and small children. I want him to be a responsible, caring, loyal husband and father. I hope there is full honesty happening in the household of Josh and Anna tonight. What they do with any admissions is up to them. No one much would care, aside from friends and family, if Josh was just your average (alleged) cheater spouse, but when you make your living by lecturing others on the only true right Christian way to live, well … don’t be surprised or offended when your rambling chickens come home to roost.

  9. Here’s the latest post I wrote. This is about PJ Smyth, the lead Senior Pastor candidate at Covenant Life Church. Its a history of PJ, his church GodFirst in South Africa, and his theology including his ties with New Frontiers and Terry Virgo.

    This also talks about how the ghosts of Sovereign Grace still remain. Someone from SGM Survivors asked me if I was willing to listen to PJ and give some feedback, that’s what led to this.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/08/19/from-cj-mahaney-to-pj-smyth-at-covenant-life-church-some-thoughts-from-an-outsider/

    In the next two weeks or so I am planning on doing analysis of his Advance Movement in Africa, the UK and Europe and the United States.

  10. “This is going to be something that will not only be destroying marriages . . .”

    The cheaters are destroying the marriages, not the hack.

  11. well, benefit of the doubt is probably best until he makes a public statement . . . but I am feeling very sad for his wife in any case . . . how will such a person make a living for a huge family carrying around a ‘child molester’ label? I wonder if he has any real work experience, construction work, or education that can be used in a job setting? I think his ‘political’ and ‘reality show’ income is likely over, with the exposure so far revealed.
    My best wishes are for the welfare his family. He never did get the proper help or was called to account properly for the molestation incidents . . . maybe that would have made a difference in his future? What happens to someone in his position?
    What happens to those dependent on him? It’s a mess.

  12. I would also advise caution before you believe the reports.

    From what I have read on IT websites, AM did not verify mail addresses at all. So any of us could be in that data dump. After all, if anybody wanted to cheat on their spouse, they would have any incentive to hide their true identity.

    Also, email addresses are not verified. Anybody can open an account under (almost) anybody’s name without verification.

    Somebody might even have thought it hilarious to use one of the sanctimonious Duggars’ name at AM.

  13. Tree wrote:

    I want him to be a responsible, caring, loyal husband and father.

    Agreed. I want Josh to live up to the image he (and his family) portrayed in their very public lives. Hopefully, the truth will come out soon.

  14. Gus wrote:

    I would also advise caution before you believe the reports.

    I, too, and I would further caution that anything alleged by the Daily Mail should be considered as irrelevant unless and until it is corroborated by clear, first-hand evidence from a totally unrelated source that is not trying to generate coverage. I’m less familiar with the New York Post, but the article linked above certainly makes no attempt to conceal its editorial bias. Incidentally, the post above refers to the New York Post, but then halfway down contains the phrase

    the NYT article further states…

    I believe this should refer to the same NYP article. Even to an expat Englishman in Scotland, the acronym NYT evokes, in this context, the New York Times – which is, I believe, a very different outlet. It so happens that there is an article in the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/20/technology/the-ashley-madison-data-dump-explained which does give some useful background. The NYT makes no reference to any named individual, Duggar or otherwise.

    The scandal-hungry tabloids undoubtedly stumble across the truth some of the time, whether by accident or design. Personally, I don’t use them as sources of non-trivial information, especially when it comes to indicting specific people or groups. Like church membership covenants, they are best avoided – the risks far outweigh the benefits. As Faramir said to Frodo: I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood.

  15. As much as I dislike the Duggar version of Christianity,and the cover-up, defense of Josh molesting his sisters, I'm not convinced this outing of Josh is kosher. I wonder why he is the first one to be outed? Surely, if there are so many subscribers to the hacked AM site, it seems odd, suspicious, JD was on the top of the list. Cautiously waiting for more information. Maybe it's true

  16. Tree wrote:

    If it was just his email, you might have reason to believe he had been hacked…..

    His birthdates that were given on the two accounts were very close to his actual birthdate…..

    The address reported as linked to the credit card in his name matched his grandmother’s address in his home corner of Arkansas. Unfortunately, the allegation has credibility.

    It sounds like there’s enough evidence for Josh’s wife to figure out if it’s a hoax or not.

    Whether he had an account or not, I feel so very badly for that young woman. She has a houseful of babies with a man who will struggle to provide for them. She can’t even refuse to have more children because in her world that would be unfaithfulness to God.

  17. @ mirele:

    Unfortunately Gawker posted a screen shot of one of the two accounts and it contains the home address (for credit card billing) of his grandma where his wife had her baby. The other account contains his home address in Maryland, from where he did lobbying work. So it doesn’t look good.

    One of the more difficult things for me to reconcile, towards the end of my long therapy, was that my abusive father also had an abusive childhood in Holland during WWII even while he was also coddled by his mother for being first-born son. It excused nothing, and I was horrified by the thought of passing on my own abuse. Yet, as my pain slowly receded, and my rage waned, my father’s pain presented itself.

    Josh was a very abusive teen and now too, husband, and he also had a terrible childhood. Like my father, he received that wretched combo of not being loved while being told he was extry-speshul because first-born son. So when I read what Josh was looking for in his affair (if this turns out to be true), that he wanted touching, kindness and playfulness, I wept.

    I wept for my father several years ago too, even though I was also longing for justice and restitution. Eventually I realized that I wasn’t just being a schmuck once again, but was walking a mile in my father’s moccasins, was carrying his forced burden a second mile. I realized that this is what it meant to love my enemy.

    Because my father became a 3-D human to me (nothing left out, the panorama of evil and humanity acknowledged), I was able to let him go from my inner life and I was finally free. This sort of thing, done at the wrong time, deepens damage, as is being done to Josh’s sisters.

    But for us outsiders, ISTM important to not schmooze over the evil Josh does, nor to forget his wretched childhood. We are most helpful to his sisters by maintaining this uncomfortable reality. Because mercy and justice also go together, neither cancelling the other.

  18. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    Whether he had an account or not, I feel so very badly for that young woman. She has a houseful of babies with a man who will struggle to provide for them. She can’t even refuse to have more children because in her world that would be unfaithfulness to God.

    We are witnessing the vulnerability of women caught up in the quiverful movement.

  19. Deb wrote:

    Thanks for the info on the Daily Mail and for your sharp eye.

    Not for nothing is it known as the Daily Fail Deb.

  20. It does seem suspicious that Duggar is the first outed. I imagine it’s easy to set up fake accounts for people in order to discredit them. Caution should be the order of the day, especially when the well being of his four kids and wife are at stake.

  21. Patti wrote:

    The cheaters are destroying the marriages, not the hack.

    I agree with you. Although I do not approve of breaking the law by hacking and releasing information, I do believe, if this proves to be true, that the only ones to blame for this are those who signed up for the service. I read one article that claimed the hackers did this because they disagreed with the concept of Ashley Madison.

    Whether this proves out to be true or not true, there is an underlying issue here. The Duggars have lost their sweet image. 6 months ago this would not have been believed whatsoever. Now some would think that it is possible.

    Josh Duggar should have been on top of this, releasing an immediate statement denying this. He should be able to prove that it is not true.

  22. Beakerj wrote:

    Not for nothing is it known as the Daily Fail

    Other epithets:
     The Hate Mail
     The Daily Heil

    The former is due to its compassionate treatment of immigrants and minorities. The latter is based on the Mail’s socio-political leanings. I remember a stand-up comedian over here some years ago – I’m pretty sure it was Jasper Carrott – responding to someone accusing the Mail of “fascism”. He observed, Fascism? It’s not like the Daily Mail to lean that far to the left!

    But I stray.

  23. @ Niteowl:

    I have read that there are government officials, bank executives, and other well known corporate types whose names are being released. I have a far deeper concern. If this is what a team of irritated hackers can do, can you imagine how easy it would be to screw up our entire internet infrastructure?

  24. dee wrote:

    Josh Duggar should have been on top of this, releasing an immediate statement denying this. He should be able to prove that it is not true.

    Great point! The Duggars love the spotlight. Seems like they would have addressed this right off the bat if it wasn't true, especially since they want another gig on TLC.

  25. Godith wrote:

    It does seem suspicious that Duggar is the first outed. I imagine it’s easy to set up fake accounts for people in order to discredit them. Caution should be the order of the day, especially when the well being of his four kids and wife are at stake.

  26. It’s unlikely that they’re fake accounts. Someone paying nearly $1000 to set them up, plus exposure came through a hack that could not have been anticipated.
    @ Uppity Bimbo:

  27. mirele wrote:

    OK, I can’t believe I’m doing this, but absent more evidence, I’m going to give Josh the benefit of the doubt. Not because I don’t believe he couldn’t have done it. But because Ashley Madison had the very bad practice of not verifying email accounts.

    Here’s a revelant paragraph from an article concerning the Ashley Madison hack posted at Wired.com:

    It’s important to note that Ashley Madison’s sign-up process does not require verification of an email address to set up an account, so legitimate addresses might have been hijacked and used by some members of the site. One email in the data dump, for example, appears to belong to former UK Prime Minister (Tony Blair).

    http://www.wired.com/2015/08/happened-hackers-posted-stolen-ashley-madison-data/

    I’m not defending Josh Duggar (or Tony Blair), but this is a case where a rush to judgment is unwise. I hope and pray Josh Duggar hasn’t cheated on his wife. If he has, he’s got an even more difficult and painful path ahead of him.

  28. Josh Duggar’s name and addresses were obtained from the credit card and billing info associated with the Ashley Madison accounts. According to CNN Money, “The credit card numbers listed in the data dump are valid, and many are still active, according to Per Thorsheim, a cybersecurity expert in Norway.”

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/18/technology/ashley-madison-data-dump/index.html

    It might be relatively easy to set up a fake account in Josh’s name, but far more difficult to fake his CC info.

  29. it could be easy for him to prove innocence – at least to his wife
    1. Get a credit report from all the 3 businesses that provide them.
    2. Check a year of statements for any credit cards listed for AM charges.
    That might work for his family. Hard to know how you could do that publicly w/out risking identity theft.

  30. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    It might be relatively easy to set up a fake account in Josh’s name, but far more difficult to fake his CC info.

    Yeah, after reading a couple of reputable sites, I realized the evidence was a bit more than just having a couple of accounts set up in his name. In my defense (as if I needed one), yesterday was a pretty weird day. I slipped and fell in the hotel bathroom and the only reason I’m not in the hospital is a wastebasket in the bathroom broke my fall. My neck looks like it has a nasty rash on it and I have a nice purple bruise on my upper right arm. Yes, I am keeping an eye on the situation. Yes, I will go to the emergency room if there’s a problem. Yes, I know I had a brush with the Cold Hand O’Death. Yes, I spent some time contemplating my mortality.

  31. mirele wrote:

    In my defense (as if I needed one)

    I don’t think you need to defend yourself at all. I think it’s good to approach these things cautiously. I started following links from the gawker article, and it seems more solid to me.

    So sorry about your fall. I hope you heal quickly.

  32. Deb wrote:

    Great point! The Duggars love the spotlight. Seems like they would have addressed this right off the bat if it wasn’t true, especially since they want another gig on TLC.

    I agree with those who say we shouldn’t rush to judgement. But, it is now believed (but not proven) that Duggar may have also had an account on “OKCupid”. Since the Duggars love the spotlight so much, why haven’t they at least circled the wagons and issued a short press release?

  33. Patti wrote:

    “This is going to be something that will not only be destroying marriages . . .”

    The cheaters are destroying the marriages, not the hack.

    Agreed. It is like the all too common…”How dare you snoop and find out I am cheating!” red herring. Yes, the hacking is wrong. But let’s not kid ourselves, the infidelity is what is destroying the marriages. This just exposes it to light allowing faithful spouses full disclosure.

  34. Nancy2 wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    Great point! The Duggars love the spotlight. Seems like they would have addressed this right off the bat if it wasn’t true, especially since they want another gig on TLC.
    I agree with those who say we shouldn’t rush to judgement. But, it is now believed (but not proven) that Duggar may have also had an account on “OKCupid”. Since the Duggars love the spotlight so much, why haven’t they at least circled the wagons and issued a short press release?

    That’s what I keep thinking, if I am accused of something and didn’t do it, I’d be out denying the mess out of it. Not a peep, so far, from the family.

  35. It appears that more and more mainstream papers are picking up on the situation. Even the Blaze which has been a major supporter of the Duggars is now reporting on this.

    The hack on Ashely Madison was discovered about 1 month ago. Ashley Madison set up a webpage that members could check to see if their accounts were hacked. That has since been taken down. I first heard about this hack a couple of weeks ago ad realized that some very embarrassing stories would probably emerge.

    If this is a hoax, it is now sucking in more major media who have lawyers overseeing their articles. Be prepared to see more well known names coming out. Apparently someone in Ted Cruz’ office has an account.

    This situation has been being investigated for a month. About the only possible defense for Josh would appear that someone stole his credit card and used his address and other personal information. This is going to turn into a real mess. Apparently there are some well known people in politics, the military and business that rebelling outed by this.

    One other point that is interesting,since the advent of the internet, some of the previous rags, like The Inquisitor, The National Enquirer, Gawker, etc have been breaking stories which are proving to be true. For example, it is the national Enquirer which broke the John Edwards story.

    Things have changed in the publishing world. TWW was part of this more recently with the Karen Hinkley story. TWW and Watchkeep broke the story when the Dallas Morning News backed off. That story made its way to the Daily Beast and then spread all over the world. Recently, I was doing some research and was stunned on how well known that story has become.

    And it all started with two little blog run by 3 women with no journalistic background. Do not be surprised to see legitimate stories coming out of once discredited news media.

  36. @ Nancy2:

    Good grief, how many of these cheating sites are out there?
    I would have thought Duggar would be more in the camp of, Jared the Subway guy, who has just plead guilty to child pornography and underage sex exploitation.
    Between mean spirited, abusive pastors/husbands, child sex perverts, the Duggars, Sovereign Grace, etc. my head is spinning, and my heart discouraged.

  37. mirele wrote:

    My neck looks like it has a nasty rash on it and I have a nice purple bruise on my upper right arm.

    I am so glad you are OK. I heard a story about a 62 year old woman in Raleigh who was quite active. She was in a hurry in her house and slipped on a sock that was on the floor. She fell backwards and hit her neck on the corner of a table. She is now a quadriplegic.

    Here’s to a quick recovery without too much pain! We need you around here!

  38. Mae wrote:

    my heart discouraged.

    Someone asked me how I do not get discouraged dealing with this day in and day out. I was well prepared by my pastor who preaches our need for grace. Whenever I hear about these incidents, I take a moment and than Jesus for coming to die on the Cross and forgiving our sins and resurrecting from the dead to encourage us all.

    We didn’t merit His sacrifice but somehow we are worth it to Him. (Special thanks to Jim.)

  39. dee wrote:

    For example, it is the national Enquirer which broke the John Edwards story.

    Way before John Edwards, the Enquirer (1995/6) did the legwork on finding a picture of OJ Simpson wearing a pair of the “ugly” Bruno Magli shoes he claimed he’d never wear. That picture had a starring role in the civil suit, where Simpson was found liable for the murder of his wife and her friend, and assessed $25 million. I’ve taken the Enquirer much more seriously since then.

  40. Deb wrote:

    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    Whether he had an account or not, I feel so very badly for that young woman. She has a houseful of babies with a man who will struggle to provide for them. She can’t even refuse to have more children because in her world that would be unfaithfulness to God.

    We are witnessing the vulnerability of women caught up in the quiverful movement.

    And the whole comp doctrine. Right now, I wish that Anna’s parents had sent her to college.

  41. Divorce Minister wrote:

    This just exposes it to light allowing faithful spouses full disclosure.

    I recently remarked to my family, after watching NCIS that it is becoming more and more difficult to commit crimes and lead a secret life. Our real character is revealed when people are able to observe us when we don’t think anyone sees us.

  42. If this claim is proven to be true, I hope the patriarchs in that situation come and rescue Anna and her kids.

  43. dee wrote:

    About the only possible defense for Josh would appear that someone stole his credit card and used his address and other personal information.

    Which won’t go over very well as an excuse. How could he have not noticed those charges on his statements for months? I’ve had credit cards cancelled and reissued three times in the past 10 years for fraudulent use. All three times either I or the bank caught it immediately. And even if the info was stolen, how would the thief know to change the billing address the second time?

  44. @ dee:
    dee wrote:

    Be prepared to see more well known names coming out. Apparently someone in Ted Cruz’ office has an account.

    Dee. I am wondering if the hack was an earthquake and we are about o get a tsunamis in the church with data being posted. I woke up in the night and all of a sudden remembered the A M story.

    I am not surprised at the accusations because it’s the sort of behavior that much of the ministries to men and boys lead to, IMO. Opening an A M account would be a dangerous fixation on sex. The exact thing a shepherding / mentoring / accountability type program would foster.

    So how many thousands of pastors have an account?

  45. K.D. wrote:

    I’d be out denying the mess out of it.

    If he is truly guilty of this, he was notified by Ashley Madison after the hack. He has had time to prepare a statement.

    Let me confess something. I have been Googling Josh’s name on a daily basis for quite awhile. I have been concerned about him since I learned that he had molested more than once. That indicated a pattern to me. If there was a pattern, then it would be repeated unless he got excellent professional help which, from what I’ve read, he may not have received.

    I was waiting for the other shoe to drop since I suspected he might have a serious problem. I hoped that I was wrong. I still hope that I am wrong. But I am now officially concerned.

  46. mirele wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    In my defense (as if I needed one), yesterday was a pretty weird day. I slipped and fell in the hotel bathroom and the only reason I’m not in the hospital is a wastebasket in the bathroom broke my fall. My neck looks like it has a nasty rash on it and I have a nice purple bruise on my upper right arm. Yes, I am keeping an eye on the situation. Yes, I will go to the emergency room if there’s a problem.

    I am so sorry to hear about your accident, Mirele. I had one myself not that long ago. I ended up in months of physical therapy to help my body recover from the injuries. I am so glad that my family pushed me to have physical therapy. I really needed it!

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Doesn’t sound much like the Winsome Gospelly Submissive Biblical type, does it?
    More like the exact opposite of the Good Christian Girl(TM)…

    I glanced over the guy’s list on some site the other day.

    If anything, Duggar sounds like he wanted to leave no rock unturned.

    He doesn’t come across as being picky – which is the opposite from most self-professing Christian men I see who are single looking for dates or the married ones who want an affair, many of whom insist on a Playboy Bunny type, (i.e., the woman has to be blonde, 23 years old, long hair, large chest, stick thin, giggly air head, non challenging).

    Duggar reminds me of a country song with lyrics like this:
    “Big, little, or short or tall, I wish I coulda kept ’em all, I loved ’em every one”
    -a guy that will take any woman at all.

    Duggar had every type of woman on his list, from what I recall… short, tall, thin, chunky, blonde, red head, brunette, out-going, shy, loud, quiet, black, white, green, purple, out of work, employed, short hair, long hair, medium hair – dude either isn’t discriminating and has no preferences or was very desperate.

    I also don’t quite fully grasp the “affair guarantee” that the site grants if you pay extra. How does a company “guarantee” an affair, they hire prostitutes for these people or what?

    I don’t want to hear people suggest (I’ve seen this on other sites) that the guy’s Christian upbringing with sexual purity teachings contributed to this.

    There have been news stories over the years of guys who grew up in sexually hedonistic families of origins who also turned out to have affairs or hit on kids.

    I’m a celibate adult who was raised as a kid to value sexual purity, so I cringe when people blame sexual purity beliefs or being celibate for pedophilia or adultery.

    There are plenty of people who grew up in more sexually permissive, lenient households who also went on to molest kids or have affairs, so I don’t think it’s affair to categorize all celibates or sexual purity believers as being prone to sexual shortcomings. (But this thinking still pops up on other sites from time to time.)

  48. @ mirele:
    Mirele, I’m so sorry about your fall and thankful that your injuries do not appear to be serious. Please pay close attention to your body and anything which seems odd. Speaking from some experience here, but I don’t want to unduly alarm you. Thanks for letting us know.

  49. Is there something on your site that plays ads? I keep having audio come up while I’m reading comments. It stops when I close the tab, and starts up again when I open TWW again.

    Oh, wait… it appears the embedded video has autoplay going, or something.

  50. dee wrote:

    I have read that there are government officials, bank executives, and other well known corporate types whose names are being released. I have a far deeper concern. If this is what a team of irritated hackers can do, can you imagine how easy it would be to screw up our entire internet infrastructure?

    Dee, my husband works in a field where they have been warning about major hacks/attacks like this for years. Like bringing down the entire internet or power grid. It’s a very real threat.

  51. Daisy wrote:

    so I don’t think it’s affair to categorize all celibates or sexual purity believers as being prone to sexual shortcomings

    Correction:

    That should be “I don’t think it’s FAIR…”

  52. @ nathan priddis:
    I have to admit that I have been thinking along the same lines. We posted did the Gene Emerson story. It is hard for me to believe that this happened only once.

    In this area, last summer a beloved, elderly Anglican pastor, a grandfather, went missing. He was found dead of an overdose of an illegal substance when the male prostitute confessed that he had met with him for drug and sex. This was not the first time either. Visit Christa Brown’s website: Stop Baptist Predators and see all of the pastors arrested for sexual misconduct. Why do we need groups like G.R.A.C.E. and SNAP? We should have done this stuff ourselves. Instead, we have a bunch of good all boys sticking up for SGM and CJ Mahaney.

    I am frankly sick and tired of the church telling the people outside the church what is wrong with them. We have serious issues within our churches and it is about time we start focusing on ourselves.

  53. refugee wrote:

    Is there something on your site that plays ads? I keep having audio come up while I’m reading comments. It stops when I close the tab, and starts up again when I open TWW again.
    Oh, wait… it appears the embedded video has autoplay going, or something.

    And it keeps turning itself back on again. Is there something I can do on my end, or something you can do on your end? Videos tend to freeze my computer.

  54. Gus wrote:

    From what I have read on IT websites, AM did not verify mail addresses at all. So any of us could be in that data dump. After all, if anybody wanted to cheat on their spouse, they would have any incentive to hide their true identity.

    If I am not mistaken, the data also show his credit card info and at least two of the addresses he was living at.

  55. dee wrote:

    I was waiting for the other shoe to drop since I suspected he might have a serious problem. I hoped that I was wrong. I still hope that I am wrong. But I am now officially concerned.

    This story just makes me ill because of the children who had nothing to do with what their father did or is doing. I truly hope this story is not true, because the consequences for those children are hard to overstate, and how much more since this is playing out publicly. I do not understand the Duggars and why they want their family life to be so public.

    I suspect there are going to be lots of kids who are going to go through some serious trauma because of decisions their parent made.

  56. dee wrote:

    I was waiting for the other shoe to drop since I suspected he might have a serious problem. I hoped that I was wrong. I still hope that I am wrong. But I am now officially concerned.

    When the molestation scandal broke, I said to some friends, “There will be more. This isn’t the end of it.” I wish I hadn’t been right. 🙁

  57. @ Daisy:

    I don’t blame the celibacy movement for our shortcoming. However, let me quibble with the term “sexual purity.” I don’t like the term purity because it appears to say that people should be without struggle and actions in this area. I think the only truly “pure” person was Jesus Christ and that is why I need Him.

    I struggle with just about everything in my life. I may not be pure except for the covering of Jesus. For me, it is the willingness to struggle to do and think the right thing even when I fail. I am not pure in my motives, thoughts or actions but I reach out and move to the goal of following Jesus in spite of my impurity. And he forgives me each and every time.

    I love the confession of sins we do in our church. The pastor reminds us every time after the confession that Jesus forgives all of our sins, both known and unknown. That brings me such joy.

  58. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    As Faramir said to Frodo: I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood.

    Nick! You have shot up even higher in my esteem, if that were possible (incomprehensible cricket discussions notwithstanding)! Not even do you share an IP with VIPs, but you quote LOTR. And I might even venture to hope that the quote came from the book, not the film, purist that I am.

  59. @ refugee:
    (or maybe I mean “not only” instead of “not even”? The coffee has just finished brewing, and I am eagerly anticipating my first shot of caffeine.)

  60. Godith wrote:

    It does seem suspicious that Duggar is the first outed.

    I don’t think it’s suspicious. I think it’s driven by schadenfreude.

    I am a so con (social conservative) but don’t agree with how much emphasis other so cons place on “the family,” or the institution of (hetero) marriage, or how they handle other cultural topics.

    You have a lot of left wing types (who loathe so. con. views) cheering in the comments on other sites who are reporting on this because Josh Duggar has been exposed for being a hypocrite.

    They are cheering because he worked for what was it, F.R.C. or whatever pro-nuclear family organization? And I think he was against the legalization of homosexual marriage or what not?

    So, you have lots of liberals on other sites who are naturally going to be very interested in a situation where a well known so. con. talking head gets caught with his pants down in a sex or marriage scandal.

  61. We have had our credit hacked five times in the last two years. And not just credit but personal information. Let’s not be vultures circling the cadaver. The truth will come out. If he’s involved it will be known soon enough. Meanwhile let’s pray for the family.

  62. dee wrote:

    I agree with you. Although I do not approve of breaking the law by hacking and releasing information, I do believe, if this proves to be true, that the only ones to blame for this are those who signed up for the service. I read one article that claimed the hackers did this because they disagreed with the concept of Ashley Madison.

    I was reading some of the articles about this the other day, and lawyers were saying they see an upcoming surge in business for them.

    It looks like their “delete your profile for a few more bucks” option was a total joke and rip off.

    Ashley Madison’s $19 ‘full delete’ option made the company millions / And it may not have even worked
    http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/19/9178479/ashley-madison-full-delete-made-millions

  63. Patrice wrote:

    Like my father, he received that wretched combo of not being loved while being told he was extry-speshul because first-born son.

    OMG. I don’t ever use that term, but I’m using it now.

    Patrice, I’m so sorry.

    The reason you shocked me so thoroughly is because a piece has just fallen into place in the puzzle of my childhood. I have seen a picture of my oldest brother in your description of your father.

    One of my fears, in having a family of my own, is that I would continue the cycle of abuse that I grew up with. I have worked hard to break the chain, but it makes me crazy to see/hear/read of others’ abuse. (No offense to others with mental health issues. I want to curl into a foetal position and cover my head and weep. Tempting, but not terribly productive.)

  64. Mae wrote:

    As much as I dislike the Duggar version of Christianity,and the cover-up, defense of Josh molesting his sisters, I’m not convinced this outing of Josh is kosher. I wonder why he is the first one to be outed?

    Celebrity Name Recognition plus maximum contrast with Duggar Christianese Purity reputation.

  65. @ Godith:

    I think the truth has already come out.

    The guy was already a known pedo.

    I think having an extra marital affair on a grown adult woman is actually several degrees less gross than a teen or adult molesting children. (Not that I dig adultery or anything.)

    Yes, I feel sorry for the wife (and the kids), but don’t have much sympathy for Josh Duggar in any of this. I don’t think taking an interest in this story necessarily makes anyone a “circling vulture.”

    Speaking as a social conservative myself, I do wish other social cons would take it down a notch in the elevation of marriage, family, family values, etc., like Duggar was into.
    Every time one of them gets into an affair or caught with a prostitute, we get an avalanche of liberal glee.

  66. Deebs,
    Your videos don’t usually autoplay when I open a TWW tab.

    Can someone tell me, is it a setting on my computer (that someone changed), or is it possibly something to do with the way this webpage was coded?

    Every time the page refreshes (like when I make a comment) the horrible noise starts again and drives me to distraction. (By horrible noise, I mean “excited advertising talking”)

  67. Patrice wrote:

    One of the more difficult things for me to reconcile, towards the end of my long therapy, was that my abusive father also had an abusive childhood in Holland during WWII even while he was also coddled by his mother for being first-born son.

    Sounds like a VERY bad combination. Abuse plus Ego-Stroking.

    Perhaps not coincidentally, very similar to the early childhood of one A.Hitler, before his mother died of cancer and left him alone and exposed to his violent alcoholic abuser father. The history books show how that combination turned out.

  68. dee wrote:

    If this claim is proven to be true, I hope the patriarchs in that situation come and rescue Anna and her kids.

    I hope they do, too!

    At the same time, when I look at what happened to Karen, what happened to women in SGM, what happened in the Doug Phillips case, what is happening in the Tony Jones saga to his ex wife and children, I really don’t trust the men (nor many of the women in these groups) to be helpful.

  69. Velour wrote:

    Patrice wrote:

    Josh was a very abusive teen and now too, husband, and he also had a terrible childhood

    How do we know this?

    G’morn, Velour.

    I see it as deeply abusive when a teen feels up 4 younger sisters, sometimes while they are sleeping, and one of whom was ~5 at the time.

    And an affair in a traditional marriage is a rejection of the spouse and a deep betrayal of trust. It breaks the relationship into pieces.

    Whatever the reasons driving Josh’s actions, they caused deep damage to the others. Damage that will take years to work through.

    Do you think otherwise?

  70. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    It might be relatively easy to set up a fake account in Josh’s name, but far more difficult to fake his CC info.

    There was also this:

    Josh Duggar May Have Been Looking For Love On OkCupid, Too
    http://uproxx.com/media/2015/08/josh-duggar-okcupid/

    If I remember the details right: The email the Duggar entity signed up with to join AM (Ashley Madison) site – a gmail address with a name like “joesmithonnwa” – is the same name used on an OK Cupid profile, “joesmithonnwa”

    First, there’s the fact that the user pictured here uses Duggar’s “unique” Ashley Madison name.

    Then, there’s the fact that the picture on the account may have just been ripped from a Google search of “random guy from Facebook,” which Feinberg notes may be a good way to cover your tracks if you’re a dude in your 20s looking to date on the site.

    But here’s the most important piece of evidence that Gawker dug up:

    It’s also worth noting that, on this OKCupid profile, “Joesmithsonnwa” claims to be looking for “casual sex” while simultaneously describing himself as a “strictly monogamous” type.

    “Joesmithsonnwa” last appeared online in September of 2014 (around the same time Josh J Duggar’s credit card stopped paying for the first Ashley Madison account), and “Joesmithsonnwa” lists his location as near where Duggar, his wife, and their three children lived in Oxon Hill, Maryland—that is, until they moved back to Arkansas when scandal hit.

    That seems very peculiar if the whole thing is a hoax.

  71. mirele wrote:

    I slipped and fell in the hotel bathroom and the only reason I’m not in the hospital is a wastebasket in the bathroom broke my fall. My neck looks like it has a nasty rash on it and I have a nice purple bruise on my upper right arm. Yes, I am keeping an eye on the situation. Yes, I will go to the emergency room if there’s a problem. Yes, I know I had a brush with the Cold Hand O’Death. Yes, I spent some time contemplating my mortality.

    I am sorry. I hope you feel better soon.

  72. nathan priddis wrote:

    Dee. I am wondering if the hack was an earthquake and we are about o get a tsunamis in the church with data being posted. I woke up in the night and all of a sudden remembered the A M story.

    As someone who lives in Earthquake Country (SoCal), EARTHQUAKES DO NOT COME IN ISOLATION. They are often preceded by foreshocks (smaller quakes building up to the main one) and always followed by aftershocks as the smaller faults settle down after the strain of the main slip.

    How do you know if a quake is a foreshock? Wait 24 hours; if you get a BIGGER quake on the same fault line within that period, it was a foreshock.

  73. @ refugee:

    Try clearing your browser “history” on your device and starting over. Sometimes things get stuck in the ‘refresh’ button loop.

  74. dee wrote:

    If this claim is proven to be true, I hope the patriarchs in that situation come and rescue Anna and her kids.

    I hope so too. Do something useful with all the power they like to throw around.

    I feel sooo sad for her. I wish we all could throw her spiritual lifelines through ESP or something. :-\

  75. @ refugee:
    We rarely ever use an autoplay when the tab opens. Usually you have to click start it yourself. However, there is a problem with the video we have posted in the top of this post. It seems not to be loading correctly.

  76. dee wrote:

    It appears that more and more mainstream papers are picking up on the situation. Even the Blaze which has been a major supporter of the Duggars is now reporting on this.

    If the Duggar being on the AM site story is true, I hope to goodness that my fellow social conservatives don’t do an “excuse and minimize it, and blame liberals in some regard too” for it approach, which is the standard procedure for some of them, like Mike Huckabee.

    The Huckabees of the world need to just admit that sometimes people on “our side” make mistakes and do bad things too. Continual defense of people who don’t deserve it really looks bad and out of touch.

    It’s like these churches that cover pedophiles. Just admit you had a pedo, messed up in how you handled it, correct the situation. But they frequently go into “circle the wagons” mode and cover for their mistakes and the pedo. Which damages the victims.

  77. Bridget wrote:

    I really don’t trust the men (nor many of the women in these groups) to be helpful.

    I agree. She would be better off going to shelter.

  78. Godith wrote:

    We have had our credit hacked five times in the last two years.

    Apparently, I once tried to purchase a laptop out of Utah that cost more than the limit on my credit card. Another time I apparently tried to book a room in a lodge in Johannesburg. 🙂 The bank flagged those. Even if they hadn’t, I would have seen those on my statements. How does someone not notice almost $1000 worth of charges?

  79. @ mirele:

    Sorry you’ve been hurt. Hope you feel better soon. I don’t want to alarm you with a story either, but I highly advise an X-ray, especially if there is stiffness/soreness in the neck area.

  80. It’s also worth noting that, on this OKCupid profile, “Joesmithsonnwa” claims to be looking for “casual sex” while simultaneously describing himself as a “strictly monogamous” type.

    “Strictly Monogamous Casual Sex”…

    OK, I’ll bite. How do you reconcile “Strictly Monogamous” with “looking for Casual Sex” without large amounts of hallucinogenic drugs or Doublethink?

  81. Daisy wrote:

    sometimes people on “our side” make mistakes

    Recently, I have been thinking through the “mistake” word. A mistake is when I thought my doctor’s appt was at 3 PM and it was 10AM.

    This wasn’t a mistake if it is true. He had to log in, input info and give a credit card number. That was a deliberate act and no mistake. I think the word would be *sin.*

  82. Patrice wrote:

    dee wrote:
    If this claim is proven to be true, I hope the patriarchs in that situation come and rescue Anna and her kids.
    I hope so too. Do something useful with all the power they like to throw around.

    And use that POWER for something other than Exalting Themselves?

  83. mirele wrote:

    Way before John Edwards, the Enquirer (1995/6) did the legwork on finding a picture of OJ Simpson wearing a pair of the “ugly” Bruno Magli shoes he claimed he’d never wear.

    I remember that!

    That was also the same trial that brought us cringe worthy phrase repeated ad nauseam for years after, “if the glove doesn’t fit, you must acquit.”

    O. J. promised he would spend every living moment finding his wife’s killers and there-after spent many days playing golf at golf courses. *roll eyes*

  84. Daisy wrote:

    sometimes people on “our side” make mistakes

    No, Daisy, NOBODY on “our side” EVER makes mistakes.

    The correct phrasing in “Mistakes were made”.

    Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.

  85. Apparently someone in Ted Cruz’ office has an account.

    If a staffer has an account, that’s one thing. If the senator himself has an account, that would be a big story, although I again need to point out that Ashley Madison didn’t have an e-mail verification process.

    I’m curious, however, that so far the media seem to be fixated on those associated with the political and social right. Considering the millions of Ashley Madison members, I’m sure there are plenty of folks on the other side of the political and social spectrum who have accounts as well. Forgive me for briefly being political, but this emphasis reeks of bias.

  86. @ mirele:
    I empathize, and hope you recover quickly and without complications.

    I can’t believe how precarious my balance has become lately. I am having to learn to be much more careful in something I never paid any attention to, before. (Walking, standing, slipping, tripping, being pulled on — no more effortless, unthinking recovery.)

  87. nathan priddis wrote:

    So how many thousands of pastors have an account?

    This is one thing I’ve seen come up on other sites about this story. A lot of people are wondering how many well known preachers may turn out to be on the list. A lot of the mega church, on TV, type of preachers.

  88. Daisy wrote:

    O. J. promised he would spend every living moment finding his wife’s killers and there-after spent many days playing golf at golf courses. *roll eyes*

    Guess he found his wife’s killer(s) right away, then. Didn’t have to look far, perhaps.

  89. @ dee:

    I’m just denoting someone abstaining from sex, or waiting until marriage to have sex – that is all I am referring to with the term “sexual purity.”

    Abstaining sexually, or being a virgin as an adult, is something that is mocked by both Non-Christian and a lot of Christian milieus these days. Celibates/ Virgins are said to be repressed, backwards, or are possible pedophiles or adulterers, etc. We get accused of all sorts of negative stuff.

  90. @ dee:

    I’ve been thinking about the ‘breaking the law’ morality in this situation, too. Of course blackmail is always wrong. But, easing infidelity saves lives. Spouses have a right to know about the diseases their spouses are exposing them to.

  91. singleman wrote:

    I’m curious, however, that so far the media seem to be fixated on those associated with the political and social right. Considering the millions of Ashley Madison members, I’m sure there are plenty of folks on the other side of the political and social spectrum who have accounts as well. Forgive me for briefly being political, but this emphasis reeks of bias.

    Oh come on, as has been noted already, the ‘fixation’ as you call it is because of the rank flaming hypocrisy of supposed Christian, Conservative, Right-leaning, Pro Family Values, etc. etc. etc. people getting caught with their pants down.

    When some libertine leftie gets caught, they’re not really being hypocrites, are they. Who cares? Who’s surprised? Not nearly as juicy a story… it’s just about the story, and selling newspapers…

  92. refugee wrote:

    @ mirele:
    I empathize, and hope you recover quickly and without complications.
    I can’t believe how precarious my balance has become lately. I am having to learn to be much more careful in something I never paid any attention to, before. (Walking, standing, slipping, tripping, being pulled on — no more effortless, unthinking recovery.)

    I hear ya. A few years I had a medical adventure that left me much as you describe. A complete yank to my rural, very physical lifestyle, that’s for sure. I’ve had some very close calls, and need to be very careful. Oh well! As my doctor said to me, after I asked ‘what am I going to do?’… “you’ll get used to it”. Well, not yet.

    Best wishes to you, and Mirele, and what the hey, in the immortal words of Tiny Tim… God Bless Us Every One.

  93. Dee wrote:

    I agree. She would be better off going to shelter.

    Yep. I’ve seen some very astute observations by other people on other sites about this, like in some of the comments about it on the Gawker site, as to what they feel the reaction will be by some of the more patriarchal Christians, or the Duggar family:

    (If the story is true, that Duggar was using the Ashley Madison site),
    The wife will likely be blamed by the family (or by that particular brand of Christian culture) for it, for not being attractive enough, not submitting to Josh enough, for not fooling around enough with Josh, or for not being _”whatever”_ enough.

    Also (these commentators were saying), the wife will be pressured to forgive the guy no matter what, stay with him, and move on.

    (The bottom line is that Josh himself will never, ever be held responsible for his own sexual shortcomings. The wife will get the blame and be expected to hold the marriage together.)

    I think some those summaries of what these people expect the (patriarchal) Christian response to be is right on the money.

    I’m also waiting to see if guys like Huckabee will step in to defend J. Duggar on this, or blame liberals for it in some way (the usual response is that it’s the liberal media’s fault for bringing the story to light, not the guy’s fault for trying to have an affair, apparently).

    I’m also expecting all the Regular Joe Christians to say all over social media, “But we all sin!! Leave Josh alone!”

    Well, yeah, everyone sins, but not all married people join A.M. or try to have an affair on their spouse.

  94. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Monogamy – the practice or condition of having only one spouse at a time; the practice of marrying only once during life

    Do these definitions leave wiggle room for joesmithsonnwa?

  95. Daisy wrote:

    If I remember the details right: The email the Duggar entity signed up with to join AM (Ashley Madison) site – a gmail address with a name like “joesmithonnwa” – is the same name used on an OK Cupid profile, “joesmithonnwa”

    That email was also used for a Facebook account. Again with the Joe Smithson. The Facebook account has a photo of one of the sons of Lloyd Blankfein as the avatar. I’ve read that the OK Cupid account uses a photo that comes up when you Google “random guy” and both of those photos look vaguely Josh-like.

    The Facebook account has a couple of dozen friends, the vast majority of them pretty girls. It says he went to the University of Arkansas.

  96. Bridget wrote:

    dee wrote:

    If this claim is proven to be true, I hope the patriarchs in that situation come and rescue Anna and her kids.

    I hope they do, too!

    At the same time, when I look at what happened to Karen, what happened to women in SGM, what happened in the Doug Phillips case, what is happening in the Tony Jones saga to his ex wife and children, I really don’t trust the men (nor many of the women in these groups) to be helpful.

    Agree Bridget. In fact, in some circumstances, the women “leaders” of those groups/cults are the most vicious.

  97. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    The bank flagged those. Even if they hadn’t, I would have seen those on my statements. How does someone not notice almost $1000 worth of charges?

    I’ve had to cancel a card or two the last couple of decades, when I noticed charges of like $50 or so. (One time, my wallet was pick pocketed. I got the card back, but all the cash was gone, and I still cancelled the card.)

    I got upset over $50 charges I did not make, I couldn’t imagine the fainting spell or heart attack I’d have if I got an unauthorized charge of anything over $100.

    One thousand $$$ would probably do me in.

  98. @ refugee:

    I am having the same issue. As a technopeasant, who hasn't a clue how to correct the problem, all I know to do is remove the embedded video and encourage our readers to click on the link to watch the ET segment.

  99. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Strictly Monogamous Casual Sex”…
    OK, I’ll bite. How do you reconcile “Strictly Monogamous” with “looking for Casual Sex” without large amounts of hallucinogenic drugs or Doublethink?

    I was wondering about that too. He’s a married guy looking for a fling but refers to himself as being “monogamous” while on a cheater or dating site??

    I guess the word “monogramous” does not mean what it used to.

  100. @ Daisy:
    I think the PR spin people are staying away. He now has cooties. Now that might not be the case for some in the ministry world who will insist we think Josh is unredemable because we bring it up.

    The implications on this are far reaching for women and children who are consigned to living in patriarchy. Her “role” was to “submit” to her husband and help him be successful in addition to raising 4 kids. Now what?

  101. Dee wrote:

    Recently, I have been thinking through the “mistake” word. A mistake is when I thought my doctor’s appt was at 3 PM and it was 10AM.
    This wasn’t a mistake if it is true. He had to log in, input info and give a credit card number. That was a deliberate act and no mistake. I think the word would be *sin.*

    I hear you.

    I know in the, what was it, TVC/Karen story?, the church people kept referring to child molesting as “a mistake.” I know stuff like this is more serious than a mistake, I just didn’t know how to phrase it better in my post.

    My overall point is I’m tired of people on “my side” covering up and minimizing for sins, crimes, whatever term you wish to use, when other people on “my side” pull this stuff.

    They will point the finger of blame at the “liberal media,” or whomever, for exposing it, instead of holding the wrong-doer accountable.

    (I’m even saying this as a someone who does see there is a lot of liberal bias in the media, which I’m not fine with, but I don’t think the liberal media is always off base in its reporting or in being critical of some conservatives.)

  102. roebuck wrote:

    Oh come on, as has been noted already, the ‘fixation’ as you call it is because of the rank flaming hypocrisy of supposed Christian, Conservative, Right-leaning, Pro Family Values, etc. etc. etc. people getting caught with their pants down.

    When some libertine leftie gets caught, they’re not really being hypocrites, are they. Who cares? Who’s surprised? Not nearly as juicy a story… it’s just about the story, and selling newspapers…

    I’ve heard the explanation before but found it falls well short. There have been far too many stories that come out exposing hypocrisy of the other political stripe and they get little or no coverage. Depending on the political and moral leanings of the new outlet they focus only on the failings of their opponents if not expressing outright glee. Unless there is true diversity in their newsroom, not just white, black, hispanic, male and female, all of the same political stripe, a pox on their coverage.

  103. Daisy wrote:

    I was wondering about that too. He’s a married guy looking for a fling but refers to himself as being “monogamous” while on a cheater or dating site??
    I guess the word “monogramous” does not mean what it used to.

    Because we have a generation who defines “sex” differently thanks to a certain president who popularized such thinking. I am amazed at how much that thinking permeated throughout the youth.

  104. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    No, Daisy, NOBODY on “our side” EVER makes mistakes.
    The correct phrasing in “Mistakes were made”.
    Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.

    I’m so sorry. You are right. *hangs head in disgrace* 🙂

  105. Bill M wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Oh come on, as has been noted already, the ‘fixation’ as you call it is because of the rank flaming hypocrisy of supposed Christian, Conservative, Right-leaning, Pro Family Values, etc. etc. etc. people getting caught with their pants down.
    When some libertine leftie gets caught, they’re not really being hypocrites, are they. Who cares? Who’s surprised? Not nearly as juicy a story… it’s just about the story, and selling newspapers…

    I’ve heard the explanation before but found it falls well short. There have been far too many stories that come out exposing hypocrisy of the other political stripe and they get little or no coverage. Depending on the political and moral leanings of the new outlet they focus only on the failings of their opponents if not expressing outright glee. Unless there is true diversity in their newsroom, not just white, black, hispanic, male and female, all of the same political stripe, a pox on their coverage.

    Yes, and I just explained why in the post you quoted.

  106. I’m not sure what to think, however, I did read one article that said Josh’s account on AM was cancelled the same day the news came out about him molesting his sisters. That alone makes me think this new information could be true.

  107. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    The Facebook account has a couple of dozen friends, the vast majority of them pretty girls. It says he went to the University of Arkansas.

    If that is him under a fake Facebook account (and assuming he has a real / legitimate one under his real name), how did he pull it off?

    When I tried making a second Facebook account a couple of years ago, a group promoting a hobby I’m into, Facebook deleted it. They are very strict with their “only one identity behind each FB account, and it has to be real, with a verifiable e mail account” policy.

    I wasn’t even doing any thing shady, smarmy, or dishonest with my secondary FB account, just wanting to post fun links about this (“G rated”, clean, innocent) hobby I’m into.

    But guys who are trying to have affairs and hit on young women online can have a second account? Really, Facebook???

  108. roebuck wrote:

    Yes, and I just explained why in the post you quoted.

    It still does not make it right that it is so unbalanced. It is a character issue as well. Not just a religious one. It is a basic trust issue.

    One of my hero’s is Sanford’s wife who responded more like an independent woman who valued herself than Hillary who was an enabler!

  109. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Monogamy – the practice or condition of having only one spouse at a time; the practice of marrying only once during life
    Do these definitions leave wiggle room for joesmithsonnwa?

    Why yes, of course. A man can have a legally monogamous marriage and still fool around on the side, just so long as he doesn’t marry the mistress. (That would make him legally bigamous.)

    See, if you confine monogamy to the legal term, rather than the spirit of the law (emotional monogamy, perhaps?) any number of things are possible.

  110. @ Bill M:

    I kind of agree with you to a degree. I’m a right winger/ social conservative.

    However, our side does champion “family values” out the wazoo all the time, which means, any time another “family values” guy stumbles, I’d like to see all the other social cons fess up to it, rather than go into attack mode against the liberal media for bringing it up.

    That’s a cop out, IMO. Our side should be better than that. We advocate for higher standards in regards to morality and personal responsibility, so we should also have higher standards in how we react to these things when someone on our side falls into it.

    Just admit the guy messed up and went against our values and get on with life.

    But you’ll get conservative folks like Mike Huckabee, Palin, or television host Sean Hannity fall all over themselves to give Duggar a pass (with maybe some lip service that his actions were wrong, but ultimately, they will excuse him), and they will bad mouth the liberal media instead.

    I’m not a fan of liberal media either, but the liberal media didn’t cause Duggar to sign up for Ashley Madison (if indeed he did do so). Josh Duggar signed Josh Duggar up for that site, not the liberal media, not progressives.

  111. Lydia wrote:

    I think the PR spin people are staying away. He now has cooties. Now that might not be the case for some in the ministry world who will insist we think Josh is unredemable because we bring it up.

    Yeah, I’ve already seen someone rebuked for posting a link to a news story about this on his FB.

  112. dee wrote:

    Let me confess something. I have been Googling Josh’s name on a daily basis for quite awhile. I have been concerned about him since I learned that he had molested more than once. That indicated a pattern to me. If there was a pattern, then it would be repeated unless he got excellent professional help which, from what I’ve read, he may not have received.

    I was waiting for the other shoe to drop since I suspected he might have a serious problem. I hoped that I was wrong. I still hope that I am wrong. But I am now officially concerned.

    I, too, have been observing to see problems, and the patterns that seem to be underneath them. As best I can discern, Josh Duggar appears to have a problem with sexual addiction — and I’d arrived at that tentative conclusion even before the yet-to-be-sorted-out situations of the Ashley Madison and OkCupid sites.

    Josh holds responsibility for his own actions with all of this, but — as a systems thinker — what strikes me is how much of his upbringing created an unfortunate “perfect storm” setup for sexual addiction. In its worst forms, the Patriarchy movement devalues women in general, the Modesty Culture movement elevates women as sex objects in specific, the Quiverfull movement glorifies having sex and babies, and Institute for Basic Life Principles has unusuable principles for these issues and the inevitable results. Immersed in an environment that is fixated on sex, what’s a poor boy to do?

    Hence, some of the systems responsibility for amplifying an environment that can just as easily lead to sexual addiction as to monogamous marriage and sexual fulfillment goes to those authority figures holding the “Umbrellas of Protection.” In this specific case, at least Jim Bob Duggar and Bill Gothard.

    Perhaps the Deebs would host a post to help our communities think through the influences like these that can lead to situations like that of Josh Duggar. And, I do have sympathy for the hell he’s in right now. Having worked with recovery ministries off and on since the mid-1980s, I’ve known both men and women enslaved to sexual addiction, have lost their job because of it, have contracted HIV and/or STDs from it, have lived in fear and shame for years in it. I pray for him to get the real help he needs to get through this … and courage as he undergoes whatever it takes to get him to the point of accepting it.

  113. @ refugee:
    p.s. It might have been intended to send a message to a potential “other woman” that he wouldn’t leave his wife for her, so she wouldn’t be a bother and get fixated on him and insist on some sort of commitment beyond the “one night stand” he said he was interested in pursuing.

  114. refugee wrote:

    I have seen a picture of my oldest brother in your description of your father.

    Yah. The same thing was done to my bro, my father’s oldest biological son. Super sad because I think that combo is most difficult to overcome (another version of the “poor little rich kid”, really). My bro hasn’t managed it yet.

    refugee wrote:

    One of my fears, in having a family of my own, is that I would continue the cycle of abuse that I grew up with. I have worked hard to break the chain, but it makes me crazy to see/hear/read of others’ abuse.

    The generational thing was a terror for me, too. In the end, I had only one child and she is doing well now. When she was young, I fell into PTSD collapse during which time my spouse became extra awful so I divorced him. Thus she didn’t get through unscathed, not at all.

    But the harm to her was far less than what I received, and fortunately for both of us, she has had courage to work it through with me. And I certainly have learned enough humility to apologize and make restitution, as I can, so she is doing very well, and we have a growing enjoyable, relationship (lots of relearning on both sides).

    Telling you just to say that things don’t have to be 100% for the generational threads to be broken. Repairs can be made, even though not easy and requiring gobs more patience than one thinks can be had.

    Abuse is not the end of the story. It never is.

  115. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The scandal-hungry tabloids undoubtedly stumble across the truth some of the time, whether by accident or design. Personally, I don’t use them as sources of non-trivial information, especially when it comes to indicting specific people or groups. Like church membership covenants, they are best avoided – the risks far outweigh the benefits.

    I agree, but I still enjoy browsing the tabloids while waiting in the supermarket check out line. The headlines are good for a laugh.

  116. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    …what strikes me is how much of his upbringing created an unfortunate “perfect storm” setup for sexual addiction.
    In its worst forms, the Patriarchy movement devalues women in general, the Modesty Culture movement elevates women as sex objects in specific, the Quiverfull movement glorifies having sex and babies, and Institute for Basic Life Principles has unusuable principles for these issues and the inevitable results. Immersed in an environment that is fixated on sex, what’s a poor boy to do?

    I see your point. I don’t totally disagree, but, as I was saying above, there are people who grew up in the same, or similar environments, as Josh Duggar, but who do not become sexual addicts, pedos, or adulterers, later in life.

    I’m still a virgin past the age of 40, in part because I believed in sexual purity (i.e., remaining chaste until marriage)/ celibacy, etc.
    Yet, I don’t run around having affairs with married men or molesting kids, nor do I plan on doing any of that, or have any desire to do so.

    I can see how some of the attitudes Josh was raised to believe in that you brought up could have maybe contributed to some of his current situation, but I (as a celibate adult) start getting uneasy when people make too much hay out of it.

  117. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Sounds like a VERY bad combination. Abuse plus Ego-Stroking

    I have no idea if studies have been done, but I’d be willing to bet that among the percentage of abusers who were themselves abused, most have suffered from this combo. Ugh.

  118. Lydia wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Yes, and I just explained why in the post you quoted.
    It still does not make it right that it is so unbalanced. It is a character issue as well. Not just a religious one. It is a basic trust issue.
    One of my hero’s is Sanford’s wife who responded more like an independent woman who valued herself than Hillary who was an enabler!

    I wasn’t talking at all about right and wrong. Just trying to point out the dynamic here – sales. News is a big business. Left or Right, it’s not in the business of right or wrong – they’re in the business of selling advertising. To expect otherwise is to be disappointed. If you don’t think that Fox News and other right-wing outfits have sensationalized/spun/falsified the foibles of left-leaning people while ignoring those on the right, well, you haven’t been paying attention.

  119. Daisy wrote:

    Elizabeth Lee wrote:
    The Facebook account has a couple of dozen friends, the vast majority of them pretty girls. It says he went to the University of Arkansas.
    If that is him under a fake Facebook account (and assuming he has a real / legitimate one under his real name), how did he pull it off?
    When I tried making a second Facebook account a couple of years ago, a group promoting a hobby I’m into, Facebook deleted it. They are very strict with their “only one identity behind each FB account, and it has to be real, with a verifiable e mail account” policy.
    I wasn’t even doing any thing shady, smarmy, or dishonest with my secondary FB account, just wanting to post fun links about this (“G rated”, clean, innocent) hobby I’m into.
    But guys who are trying to have affairs and hit on young women online can have a second account? Really, Facebook???

    It’s easy to have a second account. You just need a separate email account. If you have 5 emails, you can have five accounts. Just use a name that sounds like a real name.

    Facebook probably wanted you to create a “page” instead of a second account. When you have a page, they hit you up to advertise your page.

  120. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Strictly Monogamous Casual Sex”…

    OK, I’ll bite. How do you reconcile “Strictly Monogamous” with “looking for Casual Sex” without large amounts of hallucinogenic drugs or Doublethink?

    Maybe it’s intended to set the other at ease about the likelihood of STDs?

  121. Velour wrote:

    How do we know this?

    Some humans are gifted (and cursed) with a kind of knowing. A penetrating insight of what is, and in some cases of what will be in terms of what is.

  122. Daisy wrote:

    Ashley Madison’s $19 ‘full delete’ option made the company millions / And it may not have even worked
    http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/19/9178479/ashley-madison-full-delete-made-millions

    And, it turns out, Ashley Madison is now using the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to try and stop this information from getting out! They’re having tweets removed from Twitter! Thing is, raw data can’t be copyrighted like this. (It’s the data format which can be copyrighted.)

    http://boingboing.net/2015/08/20/ashley-madison-commits-copyfra.html

    No doubt some legal shops are looking into suing the stuffing out of Ashley Madison, as well they should.

  123. Daisy wrote:

    But you’ll get conservative folks like Mike Huckabee, Palin, or television host Sean Hannity fall all over themselves to give Duggar a pass (with maybe some lip service that his actions were wrong, but ultimately, they will excuse him), and they will bad mouth the liberal media instead.

    Glad you brought this up. I find it very interesting that Mike Huckabee was the Governor of Arkansas during the time when Josh Duggar had his molestation 'issues'. That's all I have to say about that.

  124. Muff Potter wrote:

    Some humans are gifted (and cursed) with a kind of knowing. A penetrating insight of what is, and in some cases of what will be in terms of what is.

    Just call it clairvoyance, Muff.

    Actually, it’s my wizard staff that does all the work. It glows different colors depending on what’s coming down the pike, and my only job has been to learn what each color means.

    And I ain’t telling—-you’ll have to work out for yourself, if your grandpa gives you one in his will.

  125. There is a statement on the Duggar Family blog in which Josh admits this is true. Sorry to all of you who desperately wanted this family to remain the paragons of conservative virtue. He is making no attempt to claim any email hacks or credit card thefts. He is admitting it all.

  126. Lydia wrote:

    I think the PR spin people are staying away. He now has cooties. Now that might not be the case for some in the ministry world who will insist we think Josh is unredemable because we bring it up.

    You can see that coming a mile away, though I wonder if some may be chastened the second time around. Why can’t we just talk about the facts without introducing all the false piety into it. It might be that people steep in these ideas and then think, well, everyone sins so what’s the big deal? I also think that when our obedience is due to fear of God, we are more likely to look for loopholes. But when our obedience to God is grounded in our great love for him, things look a lot different.

    I know some people very well who have been hardboiled in the legalism espoused by the Duggars. “Covenant keeping” is framed in legal terms rather than in commitment grounded in love. Hard legalism produces loopholes and self-justification and some hard and self-righteous hearts.

  127. Daisy wrote:

    the data also show his credit card info and at least two of the addresses he was living at.

    But his addresses were not exactly secret, were they?

    I hate the ideology the Duggars represent as much as the next guy, but he really could be innocent here. So let’s not bash him for this, let’s bash his parents and those that put them up to selling their children into celebrity!

  128. Gus wrote:

    I hate the ideology the Duggars represent as much as the next guy, but he really could be innocent here. So let’s not bash him for this, let’s bash his parents and those that put them up to selling their children into celebrity!

    Josh Duggar just admitted to it on his parent’s blog, at least being addicted to sex sites.

    After a quick skim, I don’t see a specific mention of the AM site, but he ‘fesses up to other stuff.

    Please see:

    Statements From Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar and Josh Duggar
    http://www.duggarfamily.com/michelles-blog?ID=651536de-8b7d-4525-afb0-3f525bc390e1

    The first two paragraphs read:
    ——————-
    Statement from Josh Duggar:

    I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and I became unfaithful to my wife.

    I am so ashamed of the double life that I have been living and am grieved for the hurt, pain and disgrace my sin has caused my wife and family, and most of all Jesus and all those who profess faith in Him.

  129. ar wrote:

    Sorry to all of you who desperately wanted this family to remain the paragons of conservative virtue.

    I hoped it was not true because there are real victims here. I’m not a Duggar fan, and the reasons go way beyond the Duggars and their TV show. Their ideology is not a new thing, unfortunately. Personally I don’t care for the people who rejoice to see him fall or for the people who pretend everyone does this and why are we picking on Josh and shouldn’t we all just forgive and move on. The focus is on the wrong thing in both cases, IMO.

  130. Gus wrote:

    but he really could be innocent here

    Didn’t read about the links confirming the story before posting this.

    But I still think the main focus of criticism should not be on a not very bright young man who was indoctrinated with very unhealthy stuff and grew up in a situation I would not wish on anybody. Josh Duggar did some terrible things as a boy and a few stupid things as a man – he needs a good therapist more than anything else.

    Those – like Gothard – who put his parents up to this and affirmed their decision because they saw it as a chance to promote their stuff should bear most of the blame. And pastors like Jeffress and politicians like Huckabee should really be ashamed of themselves. At least now they are reaping some of what they sowed – egg-on-face time, isn’t it?

  131. refugee wrote:

    See, if you confine monogamy to the legal term, rather than the spirit of the law (emotional monogamy, perhaps?) any number of things are possible.

    When you have to live under strict legalism, you have to have loopholes and indulgences and ways of justifying any violation of the system. It is all so wrong-headed.

  132. @ Daisy:
    At least he is owning up to it. I’m glad to see that. Now maybe he can get the kind of help he should have received when he was 15.

  133. Daisy wrote:

    Statements From Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar and Josh Duggar
    http://www.duggarfamily.com/michelles-blog?ID=651536de-8b7d-4525-afb0-3f525bc390e1
    August 20, 2015
    Please see the statement below from our son Josh regarding recent media stories about him. When we learned of this late last night our hearts were broken. As we continue to place our trust in God we ask for your prayers for Josh, Anna, our grandchildren and our entire family.

    Argh, his poor wife and children. Hopefully the days of the Duggars are finished, period!
    I do feel badly for the sisters too. What a mess. Maybe the younger sisters who aren’t married off yet, will be able to escape from their parents.

  134. I am so sad for his wife and their children. No one can be prepared to deal with this kind of nightmare, but someone from her background is probably even more helpless and confused than most of us would be.

    I am really beginning to wonder if he was sexually abused as a child. That wouldn’t excuse his behavior, but it might explain some things.

  135. I am sorry to say I think the Ashley Madison accounts are legitimately Josh Duggar’s. I think the OKCupid and probably the FB account (which is now apparently deleted) are likely his, too. Here is why:

    1. It would totally fit the pattern of what is now known about youthful sex offenders who get no real treatment.

    2. It would totally fit the escalating and increasingly careless pattern of someone who has not only had his habitual sex offenses covered but, in essence, rewarded.

    3. It would totally fit the pattern of many of his examples and heroes in his particular hyper-conservative movement of separatist, behavior-oriented, patriarchal, Christian homeschooling. (Think Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips, et al.)

    4. It would totally fit his personal history. He was the one who made the first home movie of the Duggar family that was promoted to Gothard homeschooling families and then beyond and eventually became a documentary and then eventually the media circus/family golden goose known as 19 Kids and Counting. (He wanted to be a filmmaker at the time, which speaks to Doug Phillip’s influence on him.) Anyway, he was already a secret sex offender even in those earliest home movie days. Yet he proudly promoted the righteousness of his family’s beliefs and lifestyle — why? Attention? Fame? Money? A real belief that he and his family were superior? A mistaken sense of security that his sins were forgiven with a quickie prayer between him and God, and all that mattered was this public persona? In any case, he shows a long track record of proudly promoting one set of values while practicing another.

    5. The specific details of payment info, addresses, dates, etc., plus the little nod to Northwest Arkansas (Joe Smithson NWA, University of Arkansas, etc.) and many other little bits of info are beyond coincidental. Plus the answers to the OKCupid site and other details of his Ashley Madison wishlist seems to suit what can be publicly known about him.

    6. Did someone just steal his credit card or identity? If so, has it been reported? where else has this card been used? Why has nothing been said or done about that? It would be easy to dispute if that were the case. Again, why all the other little bits of info that match his whole life, not just his credit card number? And, most especially, why close one AM profile right at the time Duggar got publicly exposed as a molester?

    7. Could it be an elaborate hoax? That is least likely of all. It would be quite an effort for someone to bother to find out all Josh Duggar’s information and set up multiple accounts and pay for them. Almost obsessively so. One can only imagine such a pretense either as the action of a stalker who wanted to BE Josh (highly unlikely) or of someone so ideologically opposed to Duggar family values that he wanted to humiliate him. If the former, that would be a weird and ineffective way to do it. If the later, then why not go after the Dad, Jim Bob? Most of all, why close the one account when Josh’s sex crimes were first publicly exposed? That would be the best time for a hoaxer to call attention to the additional hypocrisy, not delete it!

    I am more than willing to be wrong, but I think this is him. I think the family silence is shock and grief as they try to come to terms with all that this means for them all.

    I hope the Duggars individually and as a family can sort through the implications of all this and be open to really rethink a lot of things.

    I think the Church as a whole might brace for impact from further disclosures overall.

    And I hope and pray that maybe, just maybe, the churches will abandon self-righteous pretense, celebrity culture, and the self-protective instinct to sweep such deeds under the rug.

    Covering sin, and especially child abuse, does no one any good — not the victims, not the perpetrators, and not anyone else involved or watching. God, deliver us from hypocrisy.

  136. Oops. Ignore. Too slow posting. I see he has already admitted his guilt.

    Maybe now that his darkest secrets (we hope) are out there, maybe now that he has (in my grandmother’s words)”had the stuffin’ knocked out of him,” maybe finally he and his sisters can get the help they need.

    And maybe, with the weight of all these scandals reaching a tipping point, American Christianity as a whole can move on from the weirdness it has been lately to actually be about our Father’s business in the world.

  137. @ Never Again:

    It's O.K. Our astute readers discovered pubication of statements by the Duggars before we did. 😉

    Looks like they were published on the Duggar family website at 1:53 p.m. EST.  

  138. Gus wrote:

    Those – like Gothard – who put his parents up to this and affirmed their decision because they saw it as a chance to promote their stuff should bear most of the blame.

    I agree with this to a point. Josh is going to have to accept responsibility in order to overcome this. But those of us who have lived the Patriarchal, Quiverfull lifestyle and teachings know what you mean. It’s posited that raising your children this way will ensure that they won’t have the struggles of “the world.” Because “wisdom is proved right by all her children.” Instead, by Jim Bob’s own admission, there were families that had worse things happen than what Josh did.

    There is something bigger being exposed here than Josh Duggar.

  139. I honestly wondering if we’re going to see staff and people in the Neo-Cal movement come out on this list. Will we have a couple of Sovereign Grace pastors, Acts 29 pastors, etc… come out? Time will tell, but I think we’ll see a few them in the process. Why? Those who are hardest and most fundamentalist on sex are usually trying to deflect from themselves.

  140. @ Patrice:

    I ain’t tellin’ either, cept’ mine comes when I watch the red-tailed hawks wheel on the thermals at a spot close to my home…

  141. Daisy wrote:

    I see your point. I don’t totally disagree, but, as I was saying above, there are people who grew up in the same, or similar environments, as Josh Duggar, but who do not become sexual addicts, pedos, or adulterers, later in life.

    Yes, I agree with the last sentence you wrote, Daisy.

    From where I’m coming from, in personal transformation, DNA is not our destiny, nor is culture our destiny, nor are our temptations our inevitable identity. All of these shape our starting point for our journey, but Jesus and Christlikeness are what we aim for, regardless of where we start from.

    I should have been more clear, sorry. If I were writing that comment now instead of then, I would add that when a boy has temptations in the area of sexuality, whether from things experienced (such as being sexually abused) or exposed to (such as pornography) or otherwise, then that kind of Patriarchy-Modesty-Quiverfull-Authority home culture could amplify the attractions toward what is forbidden, and help turn the temptation into a “stronghold.”

    As a sidenote, some role-playing games use the term “freehold” for a geographical region not bound by social or moral constraints. Kind of intriguing that a freehold is where temptation strongholds could dig us into a deeper hole.

  142. dee wrote:

    Mae wrote:
    my heart discouraged.
    Someone asked me how I do not get discouraged dealing with this day in and day out. I was well prepared by my pastor who preaches our need for grace. Whenever I hear about these incidents, I take a moment and than Jesus for coming to die on the Cross and forgiving our sins and resurrecting from the dead to encourage us all.
    We didn’t merit His sacrifice but somehow we are worth it to Him. (Special thanks to Jim.)

    Thank you for this, Dee. I read every post here and at SSB, and have my own set of stories to tell. While it’s healing for me, it’s also a little traumatic at times, and I’ve been feeling VERY discouraged and wondering where God is. For whatever reason, your little note today has been helpful <3

  143. Gus wrote:

    Those – like Gothard – who put his parents up to this and affirmed their decision because they saw it as a chance to promote their stuff should bear most of the blame.

    Agree with this. I actually feel a bit sorry for Josh.

    I’m more sorry for Anna though. If she did not live in a patriarchal bubble, she would have the option to leave/ divorce him. As it is, she has to suffer in silence, bear even more children (because not to do so would be to disobey God) and basically….die a slow death. My heart goes out to her.

  144. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    There is something bigger being exposed here than Josh Duggar.

    Very true. Much like something bigger being exposed by The Village debacle. Or Driscoll’s Mefferd meltdown.

  145. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Instead, by Jim Bob’s own admission, there were families that had worse things happen than what Josh did.
    There is something bigger being exposed here than Josh Duggar.

    Absolutely. There is no doubt in my mind that this conservative, patriarcal movement is rife with sexual abuse. If the ‘known’ families – Phillips, Gothard, Duggars – have been exposed, you can stake your life on the fact that it is prevalent in many, many other families. 🙁

  146. Gram3 wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    There is something bigger being exposed here than Josh Duggar.

    Very true. Much like something bigger being exposed by The Village debacle. Or Driscoll’s Mefferd meltdown.

    I keep thinking the Lord is separating the wheat from the chaff, and we are witnessing this in the present moment in time

  147. Melissa wrote:

    I keep thinking the Lord is separating the wheat from the chaff, and we are witnessing this in the present moment in time

    I don’t know what is going on. I sometimes think I’m in a bad movie when I look at what has happened to the conservative church which has seemingly lost its mind and its way. From the Julie McMahon situation, it looks like the same kind of thing in that camp, though I’m not as familiar with those persons.

  148. Josh wrote, “While espousing faith and family values, I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and I became unfaithful to my wife…” That is his admission, which he follows up with obvious sorrow.

    But isn’t Ashley Madison a pick-up site? Is he apologizing for doing porn too, or is he sliding sideways to something “less severe” than sex-outside-of-marriage?

    Seems a little dishonest. Arg

  149. @ Deb:

    There seems to be a discrepancy going on.

    On the Duggar’s site at one point, Josh says something about “the Devil making a fortress in his heart,” or something like that, but some of the news sites, when they reproduce his comments, don’t have that particular bit of commentary in there.

    The thing is worded slightly different depending on where you read it.

    I don’t know if the Duggar family putzed around with the statement at some point after having released it, or if the media got the quotes wrong, or what.

  150. Gus wrote:

    Those – like Gothard – who put his parents up to this and affirmed their decision because they saw it as a chance to promote their stuff should bear most of the blame

    You know, Gus…I have a 49 yr. old son who blames me for every sin in his life. His porn addiction and his pot addiction. When he confronted me with the blame and I tried to make him understand that he is responsible for his own actions, he swore at me and said I was callous and always have been.

    Regardless of how Josh was brought up and the belief system of his parents, he is responsible for the choices he made.

  151. In other news, an unnamed man ran out of a clothing shop in Napier, New Zealand, picking the wrong moment to look like a shoplifter:

    bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/All-Black-chases-alleged-shoplifter

    Information if required:
     A “shoplifter” in UK English does not refer to someone who lifts shops but to someone who illegally lifts merchandise and removes it from shops.
     Rugby Union bears a superficial resemblance to the sport known as american football, but does not involve padding and demands much higher levels of fitness.

  152. May wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Instead, by Jim Bob’s own admission, there were families that had worse things happen than what Josh did.
    There is something bigger being exposed here than Josh Duggar.

    Absolutely. There is no doubt in my mind that this conservative, patriarcal movement is rife with sexual abuse. If the ‘known’ families – Phillips, Gothard, Duggars – have been exposed, you can stake your life on the fact that it is prevalent in many, many other families.

    Actually, I think this is the reason that I was excommunicated/shunned from my recent NeoCal church. I went in to a meeting about a convicted sex offender that the pastors/elders brought to our church. The senior pastor ended up defending the sex offender, whom I had observed run his hands through my friends’ young son’s hair (parents didn’t know sex offender was convicted for sex crimes involving children).

    The pastors/elders ordered that I never have contact with the sex offender’s law enforcement agency again. The senior pastor was also offended that I used the term “sex offender” in the meeting with the elders. Me: “It is a legal term.
    In the criminal code there are crimes called sex offenses. Those found guilty of such crimes are called sex offenders.” (Example: Those convicted of burglary are called burglars.)

    I believe at my former church we will be hearing about sex crimes in the future. There is something that they are hiding. It just…isn’t right.

  153. Hang on to the screen shot of Josh Duggar’s statement on his parents site. It’s been edited already to leave out the bit about porn and sex addiction. Now the statement is much more vague.

  154. Daisy wrote:

    There seems to be a discrepancy going on.
    On the Duggar’s site at one point, Josh says something about “the Devil making a fortress in his heart,” or something like that, but some of the news sites, when they reproduce his comments, don’t have that particular bit of commentary in there.

    It might be Josh’s statement is so thick Christianese that they feel they have to edit it to be understandable. Or that it doesn’t translate all that well from Christianese to English. Or it’s just too weird an expression for the newsfeeds and they don’t know what to make of it.

  155. Daisy wrote:

    There seems to be a discrepancy going on.
    On the Duggar’s site at one point, Josh says something about “the Devil making a fortress in his heart,” or something like that, but some of the news sites, when they reproduce his comments, don’t have that particular bit of commentary in there.

    They yanked the first statement and revised it:

    http://www.duggarfamily.com/2015/8/statements-from-jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-and-josh-duggar

    Julie Anne at SSB just put up a post comparing the two statements.

  156. @ Daisy:
    The second statement also leaves out “I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction . . .”

  157. singleman wrote:

    I’m curious, however, that so far the media seem to be fixated on those associated with the political and social right. Considering the millions of Ashley Madison members, I’m sure there are plenty of folks on the other side of the political and social spectrum who have accounts as well. Forgive me for briefly being political, but this emphasis reeks of bias.

    It may be a bias for prominent people who preach sexual purity or criticize the sexual lifestyles of others. That would include more people on the religious right than on the religious left, as the latter generally do not loudly call out the sins of others, except as Jesus did, calling out the religious hypocrits.

  158. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    There seems to be a discrepancy going on.
    On the Duggar’s site at one point, Josh says something about “the Devil making a fortress in his heart,” or something like that, but some of the news sites, when they reproduce his comments, don’t have that particular bit of commentary in there.
    It might be Josh’s statement is so thick Christianese that they feel they have to edit it to be understandable. Or that it doesn’t translate all that well from Christianese to English. Or it’s just too weird an expression for the newsfeeds and they don’t know what to make of it.

    More like, the statement was put up, and then websites started lampooning “Satan’s stronghold” into “the Devil made me do it!”…

    Have read a couple of thoughtful analyses of the differences between the original statement and the several revisions. (Apparently there were at least three versions — it was put up, and then got revised at least twice.)

  159. @ Daisy:

    Interesting. I haven't seen that phraseology, but I'll look into it. I understand that Julie Anne (Spiritual Sounding Board) has put up a comparison. Going over there now to check out her post.

  160. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    They yanked the first statement and revised it:
    http://www.duggarfamily.com/2015/8/statements-from-jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-and-josh-duggar
    Julie Anne at SSB just put up a post comparing the two statements.

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/08/20/jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-and-their-son-josh-duggar-release-statement-regarding-joshs-marital-unfaithfulness-and-poof-its-gone/

    The original statement included an admission regarding his actions when he was 14-15 years old. That’s gone, as well as a statement about letting Satan build a fortress in him.

  161. @ Daisy:

    A facebook account can be set up for an organization or group, but you need a separate email account for the entity.

  162. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    The second statement also leaves out “I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction . . .”

    I read that too. Wonder why it was removed.

  163. May wrote:

    There is no doubt in my mind that this conservative, patriarcal movement is rife with sexual abuse.

    Bet on it.

  164. As of 1:16 PST, the Duggar website lists an error message when the link you’ve provided is used.

    Maybe they’re planning on some sort of disappearance trick re this post….somewhat like a Mars Hill fadeout…..

    Thank goodness for screen shots.

  165. okrapod wrote:

    May wrote:
    There is no doubt in my mind that this conservative, patriarcal movement is rife with sexual abuse.
    Bet on it.

    Totally agree. The stories that have come out are unfortunately predictable. Legalism, elitism, hierarchies, values that are wicked twisting of the Christian faith, shame culture which demands that face be maintained at all costs, etc. And now we have at least 4 more child victims.

  166. Mae wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    The second statement also leaves out “I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction . . .”

    I read that too. Wonder why it was removed.

    “Don’t Admit to Anything”?

  167. refugee wrote:

    More like, the statement was put up, and then websites started lampooning “Satan’s stronghold” into “the Devil made me do it!”…

    Well, it IS called “The Geraldine Defense” after Flip Wilson…

  168. Mae wrote:

    Wonder why it was removed.

    My guess is that it was TMI. Nobody has actually exposed his pornography addiction, so why admit to that? All we knew at this point was that he had accounts on an affair website.

  169. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Mae wrote:
    Wonder why it was removed.

    My guess is that it was TMI. Nobody has actually exposed his pornography addiction, so why admit to that? All we knew at this point was that he had accounts on an affair website.

    Yep. lol

  170. Deb wrote:

    Interesting. I haven’t seen that phraseology, but I’ll look into it. I understand that Julie Anne (Spiritual Sounding Board) has put up a comparison. Going over there now to check out her post.

    I think I still have the original Josh Duggar apology open in my browswer – once I opened it a few hours ago, I left that browser window open. I can take a screen shot of it and send it to you, if you like.

  171. Melissa wrote:

    I keep thinking the Lord is separating the wheat from the chaff, and we are witnessing this in the present moment in time.

    I am reminded, partly of the history of the church under communism, and partly of the scrippie in Revelation 13:

    And he [another beast] causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. (His number, of course, is 666: let the hermeneutic games begin!)

    OK, I might have tweaked the last sentence slightly, but the point is, you have an ungodly system taking control of who’s in and who’s out. Just like you have denominations, and city-wide church scenes, infiltrated and taken over by the proponents of a legalistic false Christianity; so that followers of Jesus are thrown out and excluded.

    What is happening is that an underground church is gradually being created. We’re seeing growing persecution, in other words, of those seeking to follow the risen Jesus rather than a man-made sock-puppet of controlled theology. But here that persecution comes, not from the state, but from within the professing church itself. The closest historical analogue I can think of is not the pre-reformation church of Rome but the creation of imperial Christianity when the Roman empire adopted, and thence inevitably took control of, the church.

  172. @ mirele:
    Josh admitted that he has has been unfaithful to Anna. My guess is that he has been picking up people for awhile now. The lawyers have now gotten involved and changed some of the statements. I believe his indiscretions and/or crimes include, but are not limited to

    1. Molestation
    2. Infidelity
    3. Pornography
    4. Deception
    5. Misuse of family funds for his activities

    I believe that there has been no stopping of these activities and they have been going on since he was a young teen.

    I plan to write about this tomorrow.

  173. Joe2 wrote:

    I agree, but I still enjoy browsing the tabloids while waiting in the supermarket check out line. The headlines are good for a laugh.

    Yor ‘avin a larf !!

    Yer couldn’t make it up…

  174. TGram3 wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    May wrote:
    There is no doubt in my mind that this conservative, patriarcal movement is rife with sexual abuse.
    Bet on it.
    Totally agree. The stories that have come out are unfortunately predictable. Legalism, elitism, hierarchies, values that are wicked twisting of the Christian faith, shame culture which demands that face be maintained at all costs, etc. And now we have at least 4 more child victims.

    I wrote a blog on this subject earlier today and it has had huge readership.( sort of surprised me) The people in this segment of Christianity do not understand the damage they’re doing to all Christians.
    You’re correct, it is all about saving face, and they don’t care about anyone, but themselves.

  175. @ refugee:

    You’re very kind (and on the subject of cricket, the Australians have won the final Test to leave the series result 3-2 in England’s favour).

    I’m a huge fan of Tolkien. Yes, the Faramir/Frodo quote was from the book. I do like the films – I think they capture the atmosphere of Middle-Earth incredibly well – but they are missing several elements from the books. But hey; I think it was Robert Redford, in his capacity as a film director, who observed that if all you’re going to do is film the book line-by-line, then the film is redundant.

  176. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Mae wrote:

    Wonder why it was removed.

    My guess is that it was TMI. Nobody has actually exposed his pornography addiction, so why admit to that? All we knew at this point was that he had accounts on an affair website.

    But where you find one, you very often find the other.

  177. I haven’t read all the comments so sorry if what I’m about to say has already been pointed out.

    I wonder if the statements were changed because a person with his history admitting to a porn addiction could be cause for a warrant to seize his computers to check for child porn? I really wouldn’t be suprised.

    And I’ve also read at other sites that a Facebook Page has been found (in addition to an OK Cupid Account) The Facebook Page was active going back to at least four years before he married his wife which it seems like the timing would place that back to the time he was attacking the girls in his family. The Facebook Page shows “like” and/or links to strippers/strip clubs if I’m reading correctly. So if this Facebook Page goes that far back than it puts a lie to the statements the Duggars put out about his complete turn around after he got caught. It also puts a lie to the Duggars claiming they don’t the kids on the internet.

    It seems there’s going to be a whole lot more to come out. I’m really concerned that something bad (like suicide) is going to come of this. I can’t imagine what is happening in that home.

  178. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ refugee:
    You’re very kind (and on the subject of cricket, the Australians have won the final Test to leave the series result 3-2 in England’s favour).

    At some point, I am going to figure the game of cricket out….I have watched for years….and have not a clue.

  179. Such a sad state of affairs these days. Beware, if you have a computer and you go to naughty sites, your covert actions just might see the light of day. It seems there’s a lot more for some folks to worry about than *church* discipline. Now secular society has the ability to call out your sin which you thought would remain private. And they’re not much nicer than the 9Marx & Acts 29 folks. I can hear that Eagle’s song playing in my mind now: Dirty Laundry.

  180. Darlene wrote:

    Now secular society has the ability to call out your sin which you thought would remain private.

    What’s crazy and sad is the secular world is calling out sin more clearly and honestly than the Christian world. We are truly upside down

  181. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    .

    What is happening is that an underground church is gradually being created. We’re seeing growing persecution, in other words, of those seeking to follow the risen Jesus rather than a man-made sock-puppet of controlled theology. But here that persecution comes, not from the state, but from within the professing church itself. The closest historical analogue I can think of is not the pre-reformation church of Rome but the creation of imperial Christianity when the Roman empire adopted, and thence inevitably took control of, the church.

    Bingo. Spot on. It’s an eerie place to be. But I’d not have it any other way

  182. K.D. wrote:

    it is all about saving face, and they don’t care about anyone, but themselves.

    This is the part I do not understand. Despite what some Christians think, the non-Christian world and a few of us in the Christian world have not lost our ability to evaluate facts. This kind of deflecting behavior or moral equivalency or false piety or pious shaming behavior itself brings reproach upon Christ’s name because people assume this is what the Christian faith is. The delusion is thick. But did you hear about Target?

  183. Melissa wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Now secular society has the ability to call out your sin which you thought would remain private.

    What’s crazy and sad is the secular world is calling out sin more clearly and honestly than the Christian world. We are truly upside down

    You beat me to it. Totally agree. It seems insane to me.

  184. Muff Potter wrote:

    I ain’t tellin’ either, cept’ mine comes when I watch the red-tailed hawks wheel on the thermals at a spot close to my home

    Sounds more fun than a staff. One can go cross-eyed trying to distinguish between one tone and another. Much more interesting to watch a red-tailed hawk.

    I hope very much that on the New Earth, I will be allowed to be a hawk for a while. Their flight looks so wonderful that I get a little envious. To be able to ride winds that we cannot see but only feel a little, wow. And if I’m allowed, and if I get good at it, I would like to be this guy for a bit (I think it’s a Coopers Hawk):

    http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80604914/

  185. Gram3 wrote:

    Melissa wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Now secular society has the ability to call out your sin which you thought would remain private.

    What’s crazy and sad is the secular world is calling out sin more clearly and honestly than the Christian world. We are truly upside down

    You beat me to it. Totally agree. It seems insane to me.

    And what amazes me further is professed Christians who have supported this fiasco, often at the expense of the victims, do not understand what they are doing!? The garbage spewed out about not casting stones and blah blah blah..where has the church’s discernment gone that the secular world has picked it up?!!

  186. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    What is happening is that an underground church is gradually being created. We’re seeing growing persecution, in other words, of those seeking to follow the risen Jesus rather than a man-made sock-puppet of controlled theology. But here that persecution comes, not from the state, but from within the professing church itself.

    I fear that you are correct. And for sure the takeover of legalistic religions of various kinds is happening. So now what?

  187. Melissa wrote:

    where has the church’s discernment gone

    I believe that we have outsourced that or offloaded our responsibility or abdicated our positions as priests of the New Covenant to the new High Priests who are only too happy to retain the status quo. Tribalism (I am of Paul, Apollos, etc.) is the rule, it seems. The tribe’s honor must be protected at all costs.

    This is yet another instance where the various threads on TWW merge and comments posted on one apply to others. That is scary.

  188. Celia wrote:

    I wonder if the statements were changed because a person with his history admitting to a porn addiction could be cause for a warrant to seize his computers to check for child porn? I really wouldn’t be suprised.

    I didn’t think about that. Since he molested very young girls it would make sense.

    I feel sick.

  189. Cutting cable was the best decision ever. Never even heard of a Duggar until this afternoon. The minute you head online, you’re marked. There are no secret Facebook accounts. A good hacker can track your ISP. So can the cops for that matter. Probably won’t for most of us, but a high profile, “family values guy”? They probably have security footage of him taking 11 items in the 10 items or less line at the grocery. Disappointed in Jared though….

  190. Celia wrote:

    And I’ve also read at other sites that a Facebook Page has been found (in addition to an OK Cupid Account) The Facebook Page was active going back to at least four years before he married his wife which it seems like the timing would place that back to the time he was attacking the girls in his family. The Facebook Page shows “like” and/or links to strippers/strip clubs if I’m reading correctly.

    Right you are.

    Josh Duggar May Have Had Secret Facebook Profile Where He Friended Strippers
    http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/20/josh-duggar-may-have-had-secret-facebook-profile-where-he-friended-strippers/

    Now, Duggar may have also had a fake Facebook where he befriended strippers and lingerie models.

    A Facebook profile for Joe Smithson uses the same email Duggar used for his Ashley Madison account, joesmithsonnwa @gmail. com. The photo isn’t of Duggar, but is of Jonathan Blankfein, a Goldman Sachs executive’s son.

    I don’t watch the Duggar show, but I read a review of it once that mentioned any time the Duggar kids are out in public that the sisters would have a code word, such as “nikes” or “sneakers” indicating that their brothers should cast their gaze downwards because (by the Duggars’ standards) a scantily clad lady was about to walk by.

    I’m not against parents teaching certain standards to their kids, but it looks like it didn’t take so much in the Duggar family, not with Josh at least.

  191. I’ve been following the A M hack for a while, figuring that there was going to be some high profile players revealed. I also have a few people in my life who are “into” cybersecurity. According to the reports, there are two different lists: one contains cc numbers and the other doesn’t. A M has confirmed the list without the cc numbers is their data; they didn’t have the numbers because they use another company to process cc. (A common practice in Web commerce) The other list contains fake profiles and email addresses.

  192. Darlene wrote:

    I can hear that Eagle’s song playing in my mind now: Dirty Laundry.

    Oh yeah, I remember that song. That came out in what, the early or mid 1980s? I hadn’t thought of that song in forever. I’ll have to go listen to it on You Tube.

  193. Latest headline on MSNBC newsfeeds:

    ASHLEY USERS INCLUDED WHITE HOUSE, CONGRESSIONAL WORKERS

    It’s splashing far & wide.

  194. Daisy wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    I can hear that Eagle’s song playing in my mind now: Dirty Laundry.

    Oh yeah, I remember that song. That came out in what, the early or mid 1980s?

    “KICK ‘EM WHEN THEY’RE UP!
    KICK ‘EM WHEN THEY’RE DOWN!
    KICK ‘EM WHEN THEY’RE STIFF!
    KICK ‘EM ALL AROUND!”

    Story behind “Dirty Laundry” is it’s supposed to be based on real life — Don Henley’s actual run-ins with a particularly-obnoxious TV news crew.

    At live performances, the Eagles specifically dedicate “Dirty Laundry” to Rupert Murdoch or Bill O’Reilly.

  195. @ Daisy:
    I remember from the dust up in May how the daughters thought their parents were such excellent parents because of “safeguards” they instituted in the home. Such as locking the girl’s bedroom doors at night so the boys couldn’t sneak into them or not allowing brothers to be alone with their sisters. These people are so screwed up in their thinking that they have no idea how crazy it is to think you have to protect sisters from their brothers. Teenage boys struggle with sexual urges/thoughts about other girls their own age. Boys who struggle with thoughts about their sisters are perverted. This shows no boundaries and just a lack of familial love. I don’t know, maybe others can describe this better. My daughter was so disgusted by this attitude of these girls as she is extremely close to her brothers and fondly remembers the summer nights that one or both of her brothers would fall asleep on her floor at night because they were just talking through the night together. As they’ve grown and moved away they still make time for each other to just to talk of nothing and everything.

  196. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Probably my favorite lines from the song are
    —–
    Got the bubble headed bleach blonde comes on at five, she’ll can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye / it’s interesting when people die / we love dirty laundry
    —–
    Also, the lines asking “can we film the operation, is the head dead yet”

    Those lines so perfectly summarizes TV news and what’s wrong with it. The smarm and weasel nature of it.

  197. Melissa wrote:

    where has the church’s discernment gone that the secular world has picked it up?!!

    1) “Discernment” has been redefined in Christianese from “seeing the truth beneath the surface, the reality beneath the appearance” to “seeing DEEEEEEMONS! under every bed”.

    2) Several years ago, someone on an Internet Monk comment thread about bad Christian art and Jesus Junk merch in general shared an alleged private revelation: Christians had dropped the ball so bad God was removing His mantle from the Christian-Industrial Complex and placing it upon secular writers, artists, and moviemakers. Henceforth the secular mainstream would start to echo what God wanted said but the Christians wouldn’t. We might be seeing a similar situation here.

  198. @ Celia:

    I agree with your post. I’m glad your kids are close.

    I have two siblings, one rarely writes/calls (unless he wants stuff or favors), and the other one usually verbally abuses me, so I’ve pretty much limited contact with her. 🙁

    I wish I was close to my siblings the way your kids are to each other. I hope your children don’t take that closeness for granted.

  199. On a different note, I was talking with my husband a while back and he said that in the fundie culture he grew up in they had “good” marriages and didn’t get get divorced. I think I may have rolled my eyes and said that they don’t actually have good marriages at least according to assessment by marriage counselors. I have also been able to talk to lots of these people over the years and have anecdotal evidence.

    It is something that they have been taught (or brainwashed into believing) and can’t accept the evidence that is out there. Almost like an alternate reality. That doesn’t absolve anyone of their own actions – cause we are free to choose and need to own up to the consequences of our choices.

  200. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Christians had dropped the ball so bad God was removing His mantle from the Christian-Industrial Complex and placing it upon secular writers, artists, and moviemakers.
    Henceforth the secular mainstream would start to echo what God wanted said but the Christians wouldn’t. We might be seeing a similar situation here.

    So God is doing a Face Palm over Christian entertainment? 🙂

    There’s what looks to be a new schmaltzy (spelling?) Christian movie being released this week or the next, by the same guys who released “Courageous” and the Kirk Cameron “Fireproof.” It’s called “War Room.”

    It’s been fairly heavily promoted on TBN and Pat Robertson’s show.

    Some Christians really rail and fume over secular entertainment, and yes, I agree some of it is smutty.

    However, I have seen some Non-Christian type stuff, TV shows or movies, that are actually more uplifting, positive, or true to certain biblical concepts than so-called Christian productions.

    Sometimes secular media understand “Christian” concepts better than Christians do and they depict it better on screen.

  201. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    What is happening is that an underground church is gradually being created. We’re seeing growing persecution, in other words, of those seeking to follow the risen Jesus rather than a man-made sock-puppet of controlled theology. But here that persecution comes, not from the state, but from within the professing church itself.

    That is what I am thinking, too.

  202. Victorious wrote:

    Regardless of how Josh was brought up and the belief system of his parents, he is responsible for the choices he made.

    I agree with you – sooner or later we must all accept responsibility for our actions, and Josh Duggar as well. He’s had, I suppose, a rude awakening from his bubble: his youth inside the bubble, the cosy lobbyist job in a “christian” organisation, …

    I feel for the girls he molested, and for his wife and children. They are Josh’s victims, but also the victims of those who promoted the evil ideology that underlies the Duggar phenomenon. I can’t help it, but I still think those evil ideologies are a more important problem than Josh Duggar getting some titillation out of visiting a naughty website.

  203. @ Daisy:
    Sorry to hear that Daisy. My family is pretty messed up too so I’m really happy the way my kids turned out – all by the grace of God. As they went through the teens they started realizing that other families were not like ours – up to that point I think they just assumed that of course siblings like each other and were close. We just emphasized from the beginning that siblings stick together, telling them nobody will/can ever support you or love you the way your brothers/sister can and you three will be together your whole lives, so make it pleasant. My daughter was so adored by her brothers I worried about her finding a man to measure up to that type of worship – she did and he knows she’s got big brothers keeping an eye on him. The boys would never have dreamed of settling down with a girl their sister didn’t approve of either. So it’s all worked out well.

  204. Patrice wrote:

    I hope very much that on the New Earth, I will be allowed to be a hawk for a while. Their flight looks so wonderful that I get a little envious.

    Yeah it’s fun to think about an afterlife. The Christian concept of ‘heaven’ never did much for me. It was always a place that you wanted to ‘get to’ and always at the expense of the here and now. I prefer the Jewish concept of Olam Ha-Ba, the world (or worlds) to come, which is much like the here and now but without all the bad baggage from the fall of humankind. And I do hope it can be different for different folks.

  205. Daisy wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    I can hear that Eagle’s song playing in my mind now: Dirty Laundry.
    Oh yeah, I remember that song. That came out in what, the early or mid 1980s? I hadn’t thought of that song in forever. I’ll have to go listen to it on You Tube.

    Ouch. It’s not the Eagles. It’s a Don Henley solo — you know, the Eagles drummer who sings Desperado and Hotel neoCalifornia, and some other good stuff!

  206. Persephone wrote:

    While it’s healing for me, it’s also a little traumatic at times, and I’ve been feeling VERY discouraged and wondering where God is.

    I totally get where you are coming from and went through a very discouraging period but came to the conclusion that God is supposed to be in us. He has given equipped us with many resources from brains to legs. And I think He is patient but also gave us volition and agency to make a difference here and now in our little corners of the world. This blog proves that in many ways.

  207. Muff Potter wrote:

    Patrice wrote:
    I hope very much that on the New Earth, I will be allowed to be a hawk for a while. Their flight looks so wonderful that I get a little envious.
    Yeah it’s fun to think about an afterlife. The Christian concept of ‘heaven’ never did much for me. It was always a place that you wanted to ‘get to’ and always at the expense of the here and now. I prefer the Jewish concept of Olam Ha-Ba, the world (or worlds) to come, which is much like the here and now but without all the bad baggage from the fall of humankind. And I do hope it can be different for different folks.

    Seems to me such a concept you have would be entirely in line with actual biblical language, what with the talk of “New Jerusalem” and such in the Bible, in fact, what tiny bits we hear of heaven in the Bible sounds more like the Jewish concepts you cite than the average “Christian” concepts of heaven, which are somewhere on the spectrum between Hollywood fluff and vulgar nonsense. When I think of heaven, I think more along the lines of the new Narnia described by C.S. Lewis in his last book of the Narnia series.

  208. Patrice wrote:

    I hope very much that on the New Earth, I will be allowed to be a hawk for a while. Their flight looks so wonderful that I get a little envious. To be able to ride winds that we cannot see but only feel a little, wow. And if I’m allowed, and if I get good at it, I would like to be this guy for a bit (I think it’s a Coopers Hawk):

    My family and I were recently hiking at a trail by the ocean. The wind was blowing quite hard on that sunny afternoon and a Red-Tailed Hawk honored us by riding the wind currents six feet over our heads and keeping an eye on us. It went on for about 10-minutes. Amaaaaazzzzziiiiiiinnnnnggggg.

  209. alethia wrote:

    That doesn’t absolve anyone of their own actions – cause we are free to choose and need to own up to the consequences of our choices.

    alethia wrote:

    On a different note, I was talking with my husband a while back and he said that in the fundie culture he grew up in they had “good” marriages and didn’t get get divorced. I think I may have rolled my eyes and said that they don’t actually have good marriages at least according to assessment by marriage counselors. I have also been able to talk to lots of these people over the years and have anecdotal evidence.
    It is something that they have been taught (or brainwashed into believing) and can’t accept the evidence that is out there. Almost like an alternate reality. That doesn’t absolve anyone of their own actions – cause we are free to choose and need to own up to the consequences of our choices.

    Gramp3 and I were just talking about whether Anna is a double victim of both Josh and of the microculture in which she was raised. What other reality does she know? A godly woman smiles sweetly and obeys her husband and produces babies. Her worth is how many babies she has. She has no value as a separate person because her personhood has been reduced to a set of functions and behaviors. What reality does Josh know? That same reality.

    Again, this outcome is totally predictable, though mercifully not all in the subculture get this far out of whack. It is sick and twisted and maybe demonic. It certainly is not Christian in the sense of looking like Christ’s people ought to look and living like Christ’s people ought to live.

    I think what Celia said about familial love is very insightful. The Duggars and other families like them do not value sons and daughters the same way. The girls know that to have any value they have to play the role of dutiful daughters and then dutiful wives. The boys know they have to play their role of penetrator, conqueror, planter, colonizer. There is no room for brothers being brothers and sisters being sisters and all of them being friends. They are functionaries in a system which measures their sanctification by how well they match their ideal roles.

    I wonder what kind of a real marriage that Jim Bob and Michelle have in terms of total oneness of heart and mind and spirit. How could they when they are so busy with other things? When they are so busy being The Duggars instead of being Jim Bob and Michelle, two people who have covenanted to do life together as partners. Where is the joy in that?

  210. GC wrote:

    I am so sad for his wife and their children. No one can be prepared to deal with this kind of nightmare, but someone from her background is probably even more helpless and confused than most of us would be.

    I am really beginning to wonder if he was sexually abused as a child. That wouldn’t excuse his behavior, but it might explain some things.

    I feel sorry for Anna Duggar as well. And I think that Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar lied to her, about their son who they knew had very serious problems, and lied to a whole bunch of other people too. They had no business having other children when their family was already spiraling out of control and their children needed them to solve BIG problems.

    I also have wondered for a long time if Josh Duggar was sexually abused and whom sexually abused him.

  211. dee wrote:

    It appears that Josh had a secret FaceBook acct in which he friended strippers.

    It would be extremely unlikely that someone plunking down $1,000 with Ashley Madison would start and end there, that it would be the sole transgression. What a sordid story. Josh appears to be another person that should have gone into laying bricks for a living.

  212. Celia wrote:

    remember from the dust up in May how the daughters thought their parents were such excellent parents because of “safeguards” they instituted in the home. Such as locking the girl’s bedroom doors at night so the boys couldn’t sneak into them or not allowing brothers to be alone with their sisters.

    I remember when they were designing and building the big house. And all of the girls were going to sleep in the same room and all kinds of other weird designs. I thought to myself, “Uhhhh ohhh. Something is really wrong in this family. That’s just really odd. You have all this space and the girls won’t spread out into several rooms. There is something wrong!”

    I posted that months ago here, about the other Duggar sexual abuse story. Several other women posters said they thought the same thing that I thought: something is wrong in that family because this isn’t normal.

  213. Daisy wrote:

    Gram3 on Thu Aug 20, 2015 at 04:20 PM said:
    okrapod wrote:
    May wrote:
    There is no doubt in my mind that this conservative, patriarcal movement is rife with sexual abuse.
    Bet on it.
    Totally agree. The stories that have come out are unfortunately predictable. Legalism, elitism, hierarchies, values that are wicked twisting of the Christian faith, shame culture which demands that face be maintained at all costs, etc. And now we have at least 4 more child victims.

    That would be great!

  214. Patrice wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Patrice wrote:

    Josh was a very abusive teen and now too, husband, and he also had a terrible childhood

    How do we know this?

    G’morn, Velour.

    I see it as deeply abusive when a teen feels up 4 younger sisters, sometimes while they are sleeping, and one of whom was ~5 at the time.

    And an affair in a traditional marriage is a rejection of the spouse and a deep betrayal of trust. It breaks the relationship into pieces.

    Whatever the reasons driving Josh’s actions, they caused deep damage to the others. Damage that will take years to work through.

    Do you think otherwise?

    Hi Patrice,

    Thanks for the reply. I do think that there are a lot more serious, even criminal, secrets going on in the Duggar family.

    But I wasn’t sure if I had missed some specific information that had been revealed about further abuse in their family.

  215. @ brad/futuristguy:

    FWIW, related to my comment on systems issues from earlier: Another thought in terms of possible cultural/system factors that perpetuated the hiding … If Josh’s wife had access to the credit card statements, wouldn’t she possibly have noticed these Ashley Madison line items, and any other suspicious charges? Or is she not allowed to get involved in the finances in a Patriarchal household, and only the man is? Seems like that’s potentially another point where marital transparency gets obscured by supposedly orthodox hyper-complementarian theology.

    I’ve known situations where the wife of a sexually addicted man seeing that kind of evidence led to confrontations that resulted in them going to [ real ] counseling to get help, and the marriage surviving as a result. The trail of evidence that the wife saw was a key point in the repentance and restoration processes, and the husband was glad the secrecy broke and willingly worked on his issues.

  216. Velour wrote:

    But I wasn’t sure if I had missed some specific information that had been revealed about further abuse in their family.

    Nah but yah, I’m afraid you could be right about more being hidden there.

    Gothard’s bizarre ideas and rules encourage people who are already inclined to perversion. His cr*p was used to re-enforce abuse in my childhood, so I can imagine what else might have gone on.

  217. So much to comment on. Sigh! @Mae – I agree that my heart is very discouraged, and I am fighting to have hope in the church and in the state of the world in general. I emailed Dee and Deb yesterday saying that, every time I go out of town, some huge story breaks, usually about sexual abuse. May God give us all perspective.

    @Mirele – please be careful. I saw the story Deb shared about how things can change in an instant, and it’s true. We should all do yoga to keep our balance and stay in shape so we can recover more quickly if we have an accident. I had an accident involving a bee in my car, the car rolling backwards, and me catching it, but that’s a story for another time! Moral of the story is that you never know what can occur in a split second. Prayer for you and all of us to stay safe.

    As far as Josh Duggar, I was so praying for the best scenario. All I can think is that the time has come for judgement to begin with the house of God. And it’s a comin.

  218. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Or is she not allowed to get involved in the finances in a Patriarchal household, and only the man is?

    My mother wasn’t allowed. And my sister and I were never taught about money—left home without having had a bank account or written a check. And even though we worked, we had to give our wages to our dad (not even an allowance) and he made it all go away!!! But my bros got a savings account.

  219. The hubby just got home and we’re speculating about how soon we can expect one of the kids to write the Duggar Tell All. He thinks ol’ Jim Bob will manipulate one of the kids to pretend like they’ve gone off the reservation and are now willing to spill the family secrets. I think the likelihood that one of those daughters goes rogue now is pretty high. The older daughters were on the cover of People this week lamenting the loss of the show. Jessa in particular is upset that she’s not going to get the same attention as her sister did at the birth of her baby. I know from many of the sites I’ve visited over the years that the money is on the daughter Ginger to rebel (never actually watched the show myself) I know also from the sites I’ve visited that evidently in this Quiverful community it’s been known for years that Josh has had issues with liking girls too much. He was “betrothed” to a girl before his wife and her father found about some incident between Josh and another girl and broke off the betrothal. It’s really strange considering this culture that Jim Bob hasn’t married off any of the other sons. It’s all interesting to watch but so so sad and maddening.

  220. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Latest headline on MSNBC newsfeeds:
    ASHLEY USERS INCLUDED WHITE HOUSE, CONGRESSIONAL WORKERS
    It’s splashing far & wide.

    It’s wierd to me that high profile people would be on that site…practically speaking, aren’t their easier ways for them to engage in indiscretions?

  221. Celia wrote:

    The hubby just got home and we’re speculating about how soon we can expect one of the kids to write the Duggar Tell All. He thinks ol’ Jim Bob will manipulate one of the kids to pretend like they’ve gone off the reservation and are now willing to spill the family secrets

    The family always seems to have a money-making angle in mind. I noted last week that when the daughter and son-in-law returned from their overseas mission, the daughter was holding her baby and a super-sized bottle of a name-brand chocolate syrup too. Then the son-in-law said they had to go to Times Square to have some milk. It was the whole chocolate milk add thing going on. I figure they’re all in it for the money. Can’t they get real jobs and earn real money? They are like circus barkers.

  222. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    What is happening is that an underground church is gradually being created.

    I would like to hear you elaborate on that idea. I kind of thought we always had something like you might be meaning by underground church. But probably I don’t understand what you are saying.

  223. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Am I the only one who is bothered by the regret over not getting to choose the consequences for one’s sin? Why not call it sin? THREE YEARS of cheating. It didn’t “just happen.”

    Some thoughts on my website here: http://www.divorceminister.com/josh-duggar-and-ashley-madison/

    Remember Daddy and Mommy Duggar always have given son Josh a pass. I am bothered by what you are bothered. But I am also bothered that this family uses attorneys to threaten to sue public official’s (their city’s police chief who had to lawfully comply with a Freedom of Information Act request), their state’s social services and on and on.

    Where did Josh get the money for an attorney when he was younger? And find one?

    The Duggars are always willing to blame somebody else for their family’s problems and chaos. What business did they have going on to have more children, when they already had serious problems that they had not attended to and children in crisis? They are incredibly self-centered.

  224. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    What is happening is that an underground church is gradually being created. We’re seeing growing persecution, in other words, of those seeking to follow the risen Jesus rather than a man-made sock-puppet of controlled theology. But here that persecution comes, not from the state, but from within the professing church itself. The closest historical analogue I can think of is not the pre-reformation church of Rome but the creation of imperial Christianity when the Roman empire adopted, and thence inevitably took control of, the church.

    That’s really an interesting observation to me; I actaully said e same thing re. persecution coming from within the church rather than without (aka Left Behindism) to my counselor over a year ago.

    I wonder if we who call ourselves Dones are that underground church.

  225. Persephone wrote:

    That’s really an interesting observation to me; I actaully said e same thing re. persecution coming from within the church rather than without (aka Left Behindism) to my counselor over a year ago.
    I wonder if we who call ourselves Dones are that underground church

    I have thought this too.

  226. mirele wrote:

    The original statement included an admission regarding his actions when he was 14-15 years old. That’s gone, as well as a statement about letting Satan build a fortress in him.

    Someone I saw on another site said that the statement has been changed several times over. I haven’t been watching it that closely, but I did see it change at least twice.

  227. @ mirele:

    P.S. The screen cap I took of that message earlier today and saved has his “Satan/ fortress” comment and the one about stuff he did when he was 14 / 15 years old, of anyone wants or needs it.

    Unless Julie Anne already has a screen cap at SSB, in which case my copy is not needed?

  228. Daisy wrote:

    Someone I saw on another site said that the statement has been changed several times over. I haven’t been watching it that closely, but I did see it change at least twice.

    Here’s a link from a comment on the post at Spiritual Sounding Board. It shows the three versions:

    https://twitter.com/milowent/status/634464294298603520/photo/1

    This comment on that same SSB post shows the changes in red ink:

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/08/20/jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-and-their-son-josh-duggar-release-statement-regarding-joshs-marital-unfaithfulness-and-poof-its-gone/comment-page-1/#comment-289120

  229. A second batch of data, much larger in size, has been released by the hackers.

    Hackers release new Ashley Madison data targeting site’s CEO and operators
    http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/20/hackers-new-ashley-madison-data

    Second, larger cache of data includes emails from CEO Noel Biderman and source code for the website and apps, days after initial release of user information

    …Brian Krebs, the security analyst who first reported the hack, said it had the hallmarks of an inside job.

    BBC news is reporting that there are some problems with the second leak:

    The archive in question has been compressed, and efforts to expand it to normal size bring up an error message,
    “It’s in a zipped format, and when I try to decompress the contents a message comes up saying it won’t work,” Per Thorsheim, chief executive of cybersecurity firm God Praksis, told the BBC.

  230. Deb wrote:

    That would be great!

    do you mean you’d like for me to e-mail you with the screen caps of the Duggar statement?

    I think Julie Anne has copies at her site, but hers were taken off a cell phone and are broken over several images, whereas mine is one big image (taken on a desk top computer).

    I’d be happy to e-mail you those shots.

  231. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    SUPRISE!
    …Said no one ever.

    Who could possibly have predicted this? I’m thinking the Perfect System with Iron-Clad guarantees has not worked out so well for Anna Duggar. Now what for her? Seems to me that her parents failed her as well by not preparing her to be an adult.

  232. Gram3 wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    SUPRISE!
    …Said no one ever.

    Who could possibly have predicted this? I’m thinking the Perfect System with Iron-Clad guarantees has not worked out so well for Anna Duggar. Now what for her? Seems to me that her parents failed her as well by not preparing her to be an adult.

    And Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar FAILED their daughter-in-law by lying about their son Josh’s history and NOT getting him help.

    If Anna Duggar didn’t have four children with Josh, I would say to do what Karen Hinkley did: File for an annulment – because he LIED. He defrauded her into marriage.

  233. okrapod wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    What is happening is that an underground church is gradually being created.

    I would like to hear you elaborate on that idea. I kind of thought we always had something like you might be meaning by underground church. But probably I don’t understand what you are saying.

    I don’t know Nick’s thoughts. But I will give you mine. I think real bona fide Christians are being driven out of the church. There is the “underground church” which we traditionally think of as those being in hostile, non-Christian countries and worshipping in secret.

    But there is another population of Christians, those in supposedly “Christian countries” like this one who are being driven out of church.

  234. Nancy2 wrote:

    Persephone wrote:

    I wonder if we who call ourselves Dones are that underground church.

    I kinda like that idea. At least we are real!

    Amen!

  235. @ Law Prof:

    Judaism concerns itself with the here and now. In contrast and by generalization (not to be confused with specific instances which differ), Christian thought concerns itself with heaven as a place you want to ‘get to’ by getting ‘saved’. Back in my Calvary Chapel days, C.S. Lewis was not on the approved reading list. It was felt that Lewis was not a ‘true Christian’ for some of the things he said in Mere Christianity.

  236. Former CLC’er wrote:

    All I can think is that the time has come for judgement to begin with the house of God. And it’s a comin.

    So true. One of the sanest comments I’ve read all night on various blogs.

  237. I just watched the news. The Josh Duggar confession of porn addiction and adultery has spread across the air waves into the backwoods of Southern Kentucky. They showed a video tape (no sound) of Josh sitting, his wife beside him with the classic “deer in the headlights” look.
    I feel so sorry for this girl.
    Josh Duggar is truly blessed not to have a big sister like me.

  238. Velour wrote:

    But there is another population of Christians, those in supposedly “Christian countries” like this one who are being driven out of church.

    But, we are here. With people like the Deebs and Wade Burleson, we can go to church anytime we want! We can all participate and share and debate among people with varied beliefs and backgrounds. As long as we are civil, no one is going to say, “I permit not a woman …” Or any of the other nonsense the hierarchical “churches” say.

  239. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    But there is another population of Christians, those in supposedly “Christian countries” like this one who are being driven out of church.

    But, we are here. With people like the Deebs and Wade Burleson, we can go to church anytime we want! We can all participate and share and debate among people with varied beliefs and backgrounds. As long as we are civil, no one is going to say, “I permit not a woman …” Or any of the other nonsense the hierarchical “churches” say.

    LOL. I permit not a woman too…type?

  240. I have not read any of the comments. All I can say is that my heart is breaking. Why why, why can this have happened. Religiosity, cultism, fundamentalism . Submission to authority that Is not Godly authority. So many people including Josh are victims of a culture that tried so hard to keep their children from being victims of another culture. Now Josh is a perpetrator of evil. And the beat goes on. This has got to stop!!! Take a hiatus from church. Rediscover what Church really is. Read the Bible yourself. Don’t let anyone interpret it for you, the Holy Spirit is more than capable of interpreting the Bible for you .

    I am very convicted and emotional about this because one of my precious daughters and her 8 children along with son in law have been caught up in this very movement, from Matthew 7. The fruit is rotten, and lives are being damaged.

  241. @ Leslie:
    I can not imagine what you are going through. I hope your daughter and her husband recognize those false prophets and get out before any damage is done.

  242. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    LOL. I permit not a woman too…type?

    We do seem to have that problem with SBCVoices, don’t we???

    Yes, we do Nancy2. But they must be rattled over there by what they’re getting and not posting. They are getting hit with a tsunami of criticism and they know it!!

  243. @ Deb:

    Okay. I just e-mailed you about 30 – 60 minutes ago, with two screen shots of Duggar’s original statement attached. 🙂

  244. Daisy wrote:

    @ Deb:

    Okay. I just e-mailed you about 30 – 60 minutes ago, with two screen shots of Duggar’s original statement attached.

    Daisy wrote:

    @ Deb:

    Okay. I just e-mailed you about 30 – 60 minutes ago, with two screen shots of Duggar’s original statement attached.

    Thank you, Detective Daisy!

  245. Leslie wrote:

    I am very convicted and emotional about this because one of my precious daughters and her 8 children along with son in law have been caught up in this very movement, from Matthew 7. The fruit is rotten, and lives are being damaged.

    It is indeed, evil. And I just escaped a NeoCal church complete with comp doctrines and all kinds of other authoritarian controls.
    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/01/our-problem-is-authoritarianism-and-not.html

  246. Velour wrote:

    Thank you, Detective Daisy!

    You’re very welcome. Happy to be of service.

    I just happened to have that browser window open for several hours after I first glanced at it, and I had other windows open doing other things and forgot about it.

    I did’t realize that the Duggars would keep changing it around, and even move the page at one point. My screen shot was taken at an older URL, before they moved it to where ever it is now.

  247. Much damage has been done. They are trying to get out, but they and their children have suffered and are suffering much damage.@ Nancy2:

  248. I just feel sick. A deep sadness at what Satan has accomplished. Through what so many thought was Godly.bbit just makes me so sad and sick.

  249. Velour wrote:

    I think real bona fide Christians are being driven out of the church.

    I believe this too. Also if we stop idolizing local church but look at THE CHURCH as the redeemed bride of Christ our perspective will change from the consumerist, politically infested church and on a elevated vision of a relationship with Christ.

    This is a conversation I want to see expand.

  250. Leslie wrote:

    Much damage has been done. They are trying to get out, but they and their children have suffered and are suffering much damage.@ Nancy2:

    I pray that
    God opens their eyes.

  251. Gabriel wrote:

    I believe this too. Also if we stop idolizing local church but look at THE CHURCH as the redeemed bride of Chris

    Right! THE CHURCH is not SGM, SBC, TVS, 9 Marks, IFB, Luthern, Mormon, Catholic, Jewish …
    THE CHURCH is all of the redeemed.

  252. K.D. wrote:

    At some point, I am going to figure the game of cricket out….I have watched for years….and have not a clue.

    I’ll need to write an explanation down and see if Deebs will put it on one of the resource pages (perhaps at thewartburgwatch.com/about-us-the-basics/about-us-definitions). It’s important that Wartburgers understand cricket.

    Now that I think about it, we need a recipe for Wartburgers on the cooking page.

  253. Bill M wrote:

    Josh appears to be another person that should have gone into laying bricks for a living.

    Ha! Reminds me of a funny story from the past. I hope no one if offended by this. I thought it was rather clever.

    My brother told me about a buddy of his in college who went to a Halloween costume party with his girlfriend. The girlfriend dressed up as a brick. And the boyfriend . . . yep, you guessed it . . . he was dressed as a brick-layer.

  254. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s important that Wartburgers understand cricket.

    The importance of understanding cricket to leading a fulfilling life should never be underestimated.

  255. perhaps Anna will get out of ‘Patriarchy’ and away from what it breeds in the hearts of men who are asked to ‘dominate’ their submissive wives . . .

    perhaps she will stay with Josh, and become what he was looking for when he put down that he wanted a ‘take-charge woman’, having all of his life not known what that was?

    I think Patriarchy hurts men as much as it hurts women . . . maybe we can look at Josh and learn something more about what Patriarchy does to the men in its grasp . . . we think of the women as victims, but so are the men . . .

    I hope for healing for these people, but their relationship may not be able to overcome more trials if Josh were to continue to try to ‘find himself’ out there in the world . . . it’s a little bit like looking at an Amish person during that time when they are young and they are allowed to have fun before they make a decision and are baptized . . . only Josh had married young and has a family, so he is late to the ball and the roof has just crashed in on him . . . sad for the both of them, but Anna has my greater sympathy, having to put up with the immaturity of her spouse and put on a brave face . . . she needs to grieve how she has been treated and find peace and I hope she does this in time

  256. @ dee:
    “I am frankly sick and tired of the church telling the people outside the church what is wrong with them.”

    they forget that is the role of the Holy Spirit Who is able to convict the conscience of a believer in Christ . . . they have opted for the role of the Pharisee and forgotten to pray the sinner’s prayer themselves ‘God have mercy on me, a sinner.’
    They have forgotten ‘who they are’ in relationship to Our Lord Himself … that they, too, are ‘sinners saved by Christ’ . . . They have become ‘gods’ sitting in judgement on others, a form of self-idolatry . . . we are all vulnerable to this kind of break-down of our own humility before the Lord, yes

  257. Gabriel wrote:

    Also if we stop idolizing local church but look at THE CHURCH as the redeemed bride of Christ our perspective will change…

    I think the following comment is actually very similar in meaning to yours, Gabriel, but if I might word it slightly differently: we’ll take a big step in the right direction when we properly understand local church.

    As it stands, a great deal of misunderstanding, misdirection and flat-out deception hides in the fact that “the local church” has two, mutually exclusive, meanings:
    Biblically, the phrase “local church” as such doesn’t appear, but it’s fair to say that the concept does: it refers to all the believers in a locality. In that locality, there is ONE local Church.
    Currently, the phrase “local church” refers to a localised chapter of a particular denomination; it does not comprise all the believers in that locality, but only a sub-group thereof, and in general that group keep themselves deliberately isolated from the rest of the (biblically-defined) local Church. In that locality, in other words, there are many “local churches”.

    The crunch is that none of these “local churches” is truly a local church in the sense that they normally claim to be. In fact, they are all para-church organisations, acting as separate parts of the true local Church.

    There’s a certain kind of language you often hear: “God has planted you in this church / congregation”. What these para-church congregations either fail, or refuse, to recognise is that in truth God has planted them alongside all the other congregations too in the local Church. God requires of these congregations that they prefer one another in honour, and serve him together in mutual submission.

    But of course, that would be difficult and uncomfortable. It’s a narrow gate followed by a narrow path, and few find it.

  258. @ Daisy:
    The weird catch with sin-leveling is that your first instinct to respond to it is “But most of us have exerted the necessary self-control to not freaking !!” Which plays right into their next response, usually something like, “Oh yeah, have you ever looked at a woman and lusted? HYPOCRITE!”

    Somewhere along the line, consequences, loss of trust, etc are ignored. Suddenly we’re the judgmental ones for expecting someone who’s spent a career strongly advocating for traditional marriage to, you know, actually be happy with his traditional marriage (putting it mildly). It’s the contrast between what he’s advocating for and how he’s actually living that’s despicable, and the fact that he dragged his family through the mud with him – because they’re going to follow him wherever he goes, because patriarchy.

    We’re not shocked and horrified just because someone sins. We’re not shipping him off to hell right now, and that accusation is a straight up straw man.

    Yeah, I’ve sinned. I’ve “looked on a woman to lust after her”. Guilty. I’m daily humbled by how low I can go and I confess it. I’m also thankful that God doesn’t exact the same consequences for thought-murder and thought-adultery as there are for the lived-out deeds. They’re sobering, and all remind us how broken we are and in need of a savior and God’s daily mercy and grace. All make me a sinner before God. But not all bring the same consequences in this life, nor should they. I’m not sure how this is such a hard concept to some.

    Needed to get that off my chest I guess. ‘morning folks.

  259. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    At some point, I am going to figure the game of cricket out….I have watched for years….and have not a clue.

    I’ll need to write an explanation down and see if Deebs will put it on one of the resource pages (perhaps at thewartburgwatch.com/about-us-the-basics/about-us-definitions). It’s important that Wartburgers understand cricket.

    Now that I think about it, we need a recipe for Wartburgers on the cooking page.

    Would wartburgers perhaps be wild boar meat mixed with hamburger in some delicious ratio? I’d love to experiment on that.

  260. @ GovPappy:

    JohnD clearly Gets It. Though we can’t easily get warthog in Blighty, or even wild boar. I’m assuming posh pork would be close enough, with an appropriate salt/sweet seasoning.

  261. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ GovPappy:

    JohnD clearly Gets It. Though we can’t easily get warthog in Blighty, or even wild boar. I’m assuming posh pork would be close enough, with an appropriate salt/sweet seasoning.

    Not really. Warthog has something of a beef taste to it. It seems that genuine Wartburgers will only be made in Africa. Perhaps there should be a TWW get together here for the launch of the official TWW dish.

  262. I was thinking last night that maybe Josh Duggar should go to an Every Man’s Battle workshop sponsored by New Life Ministries. I don’t know anyone who’s been, but I generally like their approach to things as they present it in books and radio shows, and maybe he could actually get help for his problem rather than feeling like his life is over, because it doesn’t have to be. He could actually be a model of redemption if he truly repents and follows a program of accountability and restoration.

  263. Someone posted a link to this article on Julie Anne’s blog. Its main focus is on the current situation with Josh Duggar, but he broadens the scope at the end.

    What makes it sadder to me is that there will likely be no soul searching or reconsideration within Evangelicalism of their teachings on gender roles, marriage, divorce, and sex. The reason that teachings that originated in the Patriarchy cult have gone mainstream is that Evangelicalism is panicked about sex. Courtship and Modesty Culture have gone mainstream, particularly within the Homeschooling community, but also in the wider church. Whether to educate girls for a career is controversial, with many still asserting that a woman belongs in the home. The anti-abortion movement has adopted an anti-birth-control platform. Girls in youth group are still routinely given the “chewed piece of gum” analogy to their virginity. Mainstream preachers are still advising women to stay in abusive marriages. The main thrust of Evangelical political involvement is to try to force everyone else to follow their particular sexual mores.

    I wish there was a way to make people see that these are all connected, and all connected to a certain worldview concerning women, their role as babymakers and servants of men.

    Still, as the Patriarchy movement continues is very public meltdown, I have hope that more will recognize that bad fruit comes from bad trees. And bad fruit comes from poisonous doctrine.

    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.ca/2015/08/josh-duggar-ashley-madison-and-covenant.html

  264. When Josh Duggar was found to be a molester/abuser of children, many in so called Christianity defended him. “He was just a kid himself,” they said. And so many other excuses..But the minute he was discovered to also be an adulterer, these same people all of a sudden speak out. As if adultery is far worse than child abuse?
    In the secular world, people spoke out loud and clear about the issues that surrounded the molestation/abuse of children at the hands of Josh Duggar. So, out of the gate you had many outside the faith able to call a spade a spade. Many in the so called faith unable to do so. The secular world was able to clearly see the atrocities surrounding the sexual abuse of children. The Christian world, not so much.
    We as followers of Christ must speak out about it all. It’s not either/or. And we must not be willing to fall on the sword of Christian celebrity, or any belief system other than that which Christ himself professed..

  265. Just catching up on TWW posts/comments after a long, weary week fighting devils. Frankly, I’m getting tired of all these reports of Christian men who can’t keep their pants on! At the rate these incidents are streaming in, the church is quickly becoming a byword and reproach. In Jesus’ model prayer, He taught us to ask God to lead us away from temptation. Folks, we need to pray daily in this regard, to be empowered by the Holy Spirit to avoid even the beginnings of temptation that lead to sin. We need to scare the devil when we get up in the morning, not yield to his schemes to distract us. That’s about all I have to offer on this. May God guide the Duggar family through yet another valley.

  266. Anna Duggar ‘partially blames herself’ for husband Josh cheating and using porn – while her mother-in-law Michelle’s top marriage tip is to NOT deny your spouse sex
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205403/Anna-Duggar-partially-blames-husband-Josh-cheating-using-porn-mother-law-Michelle-s-marriage-tip-NOT-deny-spouse-sex.html

    She will likely ‘on some level… absorb some of the blame’ for spouse’s admitted infidelity and secret pornography addiction, family insider says

    There is also ‘no way’ she will leave reality star – despite the new scandal

    Anna ‘is fully committed to her marriage and children,’ the insider claims

  267. Max wrote:

    Frankly, I’m getting tired of all these reports of Christian men who can’t keep their pants on! At the rate these incidents are streaming in, the church is quickly becoming a byword and reproach.

    Overheard in the 480 bus a couple months ago:
    “Bla bla bla Duggars bla bla bla They’re CHRISTIAN bla bla bla Guess it’s okay to bang your own sisters as long as you’re not GAY…”

    And JMJ over at Christian Monist once reported a favorite saying of an older relative (uncle?) of his:
    “Bait a trap with P***y and you’ll catch a Preacher every time.”

  268. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Biblically, the phrase “local church” as such doesn’t appear, but it’s fair to say that the concept does: it refers to all the believers in a locality. In that locality, there is ONE local Church.

    Many years ago, I heard of one aberrant group that actually officially named themselves “The Local Church” and appropriated ALL the Biblical references to refer to themselves and themselves alone.

  269. dee wrote:

    I am frankly sick and tired of the church telling the people outside the church what is wrong with them.

    But then how can all the Church Ladies dance their Church Lady Superiority Dance?

  270. Daisy wrote:

    O. J. promised he would spend every living moment finding his wife’s killers and there-after spent many days playing golf at golf courses. *roll eyes*

    Until he got a posse together and pulled that heist in Vegas.

    “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.”
    And so did O.J.

  271. I’m glad Josh Duggar confessed; sorry his wife takes partial blame (crazy). What do posters here think of the statement that the generality of men are polyamorous?

  272. Daisy wrote:

    I was wondering about that too. He’s a married guy looking for a fling but refers to himself as being “monogamous” while on a cheater or dating site??
    I guess the word “monogramous” does not mean what it used to.

    My Dear Wormwood,
    I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics, specifically the redefinition of words into their “diabolical meanings”.
    And my toast to Slubgob upon his promotion, specifically how bringing a Celebrity into Our Father’s House results in addition getting all his fans.
    Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
    Screwtape

    P.S. Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of the altar!

  273. refugee wrote:

    Why yes, of course. A man can have a legally monogamous marriage and still fool around on the side, just so long as he doesn’t marry the mistress. (That would make him legally bigamous.)
    See, if you confine monogamy to the legal term, rather than the spirit of the law (emotional monogamy, perhaps?) any number of things are possible.

    “I did not know that woman in the Biblical sense.”
    — Doug Phillips ESQUIRE

    “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”
    — William J Clinton

  274. Godith wrote:

    I’m glad Josh Duggar confessed; sorry his wife takes partial blame (crazy).

    Did Anna make a statement whereby she accepted part of the blame for Josh’s actions?!?

  275. Former CLC’er wrote:

    He could actually be a model of redemption if he truly repents and follows a program of accountability and restoration.

    I suppose such a program can benefit the fallen, but the Biblical approach can sure do wonders, as well: humble yourself, pray, admit your sin, repent of your sin, daily ask God to lead you away from temptation, and trust in the power of Christ to help you overcome.

    The Promise Keepers movement was characterized by men assembling themselves in small accountability groups where they confessed their manly struggles and sins. PK members I knew kept dragging themselves back week after week with the same confessions, seeming to never overcome. One should never allow a “group” to supplant “individual” accountability before a Holy God, who alone can help you to be an overcomer, rather than always being overcome. Men, we have an enemy at war against us, our families, and our nation … we need to stand up and confront the devils that attempt to control us. You alone hold the key to victory … use it … it’s just a prayer away.

  276. Bridget wrote:

    Did Anna make a statement whereby she accepted part of the blame for Josh’s actions?!?

    According to a Daily Mail article, she is accepting partial blame, yes.

    The DM is chalking this up to a “family insider says.”

  277. Max wrote:

    One should never allow a “group” to supplant “individual” accountability before a Holy God, who alone can help you to be an overcomer, rather than always being overcome.

    I’m not a fan of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous).

    I have a sibling who went to AA for years, which led to him have some odd beliefs and make hurtful comments to me, and I became concerned and puzzled, so I began researching AA a little bit.

    One of the criticisms against AA in the literature I saw is that they tell people basically they are helpless to fight alcohol for the rest of their entire lives; they are kept helpless.

    Their dependence on alcohol is shifted to a life long dependence on (AA) group meetings, which the critics of AA say is just as bad as being dependent on alcohol.

    The goal should be to heal people totally, so that they are no longer dependent on substances -OR- on meetings.

    The impression I got is that AA is pretty much a cult, with legions of loyal defenders.

    This is why any time you see a post like mine that is critical here, you can always count on a former AA member, or family member of one, like clock work, to leave a reply to a post like this saying, au contraire, how great AA is, it sure helped them ,or it sure helped their uncle Joe.

    I’m sorry, but I’ve read too many critical papers and sites about AA to buy into AA buying great, even if it did supposedly help a few people here and there.

    Anyway, Promise Keepers sounds similar to AA, in that in either system, you can never be totally healed of whatever it is you struggle with.

    You will keep relapsing and have to keep attending meetings over and over, with little to no progress made.

  278. @ Daisy:

    P.S.) Not that I mean to suggest that healing of whatever problem a person is dealing with will be automatic or instant.

    I recognize that a lot of problems may take weeks, months, or years of treatment.

  279. @ Daisy:

    If you’re not a drunk Daisy, this is something you know nothing about. I’m a drunk and I know a great deal about being a drunk. AA is a good thing for the solidarity alone. Drunks in the same boat, doing something about it by staying sober.

  280. @ Daisy:
    Whoever the Son sets free, is free indeed! Certain accountability groups can keep you captive (“you will always be an alcoholic”, “alcoholism is a disease”, “porn addiction is a tough battle to overcome”, etc.). While participation in some groups may have some benefit in the early phases of recovery from an addiction, only the power of Christ can bring true freedom from it … not just any old “higher power.”

  281. Daisy wrote:

    Their dependence on alcohol is shifted to a life long dependence on (AA) group meetings, which the critics of AA say is just as bad as being dependent on alcohol.

    Even if so, like Methadone to Heroin it’s at least substituting a less destructive addiction where they can stay functional.

    The impression I got is that AA is pretty much a cult, with legions of loyal defenders.
    This is why any time you see a post like mine that is critical here, you can always count on a former AA member, or family member of one, like clock work, to leave a reply to a post like this saying, au contraire, how great AA is, it sure helped them ,or it sure helped their uncle Joe.

    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Daisy:

    If you’re not a drunk Daisy, this is something you know nothing about. I’m a drunk and I know a great deal about being a drunk. AA is a good thing for the solidarity alone. Drunks in the same boat, doing something about it by staying sober.

    Muff – Your reply could be construed as confirming Daisy’s above claim.

  282. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Godith wrote:

    What do posters here think of the statement that the generality of men are polyamorous?

    I, personally, don’t believe that. But some Christians are convinced that all men are more debauched than simply polyamorous. Did you read what JD Hall, et al. accused Janet Mefferd’s husband of?

    http://janetmefferd.com/2015/05/predators-dangerous-deviants-j-d-hall/

    Went down the link.
    Can you say Sin-Levelling plus Projection?

    (Because if All Sins are Equal, then I’m No Worse Than You. Haw. Haw. Haw.)

  283. Max wrote:

    Just catching up on TWW posts/comments after a long, weary week fighting devils. Frankly, I’m getting tired of all these reports of Christian men who can’t keep their pants on!

    Which begs to question, should the men really be the ones wearing the pants??? (Wink)

    Seriously, I wonder …… If the Duggar girls weren’t being raised to be brainless, submissive little twits ……. if only one of them would have had the audacity to crack Josh’s jaw or break a couple of his fingers when he put his hands where he shouldn’t have ……
    Would that have had any effect on Josh in the long run?

  284. Daisy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Did Anna make a statement whereby she accepted part of the blame for Josh’s actions?!?
    According to a Daily Mail article, she is accepting partial blame, yes.
    The DM is chalking this up to a “family insider says.”

    Well that is a bunch of poopoo!! He had issues coming into the marriage already with lust as he couldn’t keep his hands off of his siblings.

    Anna has had what, four children in six or so years? But she is ALSO supposed to be Josh’s over-sexualized fix whenever and how ever be desires. If Josh and his family let her take My blame for his actions, they are bunch of self-serving wacks.

    I wonder what Josh’s sisters are now thinking and feeling after they publicly stood up for him and said how changed/wonderful/repentant he is now? The girls need therapy by legitamate therapists who do not have an agenda. Anna needs to get out of that environment with her children. Josh has continued to deceive and seek sexual pleasure however he thought be could get away with it! Anna should not trust him with their children.

    I am not sorry for this rant!

  285. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Muff – Your reply could be construed as confirming Daisy’s above claim.

    Or the rest of us can use our own brains to figure out that every Church body is not a cult and every AA group is different as well.

  286. Daisy wrote:

    The goal should be to heal people totally, so that they are no longer dependent on substances -OR- on meetings.

    I suppose that by that reasoning if somebody is really and truly saved, washed in the blood, redeemed and justified and sanctified, demonstrably one of the elect, then that person is required to give up meeting with other believers at church or elsewhere and pursue holiness in solitude or else one is shown to not really be ts, witb, r/j/s much less elect. That person who continues to think that elements of the christian life are in fact done in community, that person would be deceived and not actually spiritually ‘healed.’ Hogwash.

  287. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Muff – Your reply could be construed as confirming Daisy’s above claim.

    Very true HUG, and it depends entirely on who’s the construer and who’s the construee.

  288. @ Nancy2:
    Wow. You don’t think they were frightened of both Josh and their parents + not being believed + possible consequences of honesty for them? Or bullied into dilence?

    I could say more, but my main point is that you have attacked the victims, and used slurs in doing so. I don’t know why anyone would want to do that, honestly.

  289. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Godith wrote:

    What do posters here think of the statement that the generality of men are polyamorous?

    I, personally, don’t believe that. But some Christians are convinced that all men are more debauched than simply polyamorous. Did you read what JD Hall, et al. accused Janet Mefferd’s husband of?

    http://janetmefferd.com/2015/05/predators-dangerous-deviants-j-d-hall/

    I remember that spat. Disgusting. We have struggles, yes, but this picture of all of us as barely controlled mind-rapists is so wrong.

    I think humanity in general puts short-term pleasure over long-term cause and effect – that’s our nature we default to. But that’s why we train up a child, that’s why redemption is necessary, that’s why we hold each other accountable for actions. We’re not helpless in the face of our nature, and the cross promises the help and comfort of the Spirit throughout our struggles, if not always complete victory.

    Josh is no victim of his nature as a man. You could make the claim he’s partly a victim of his own upbringing not equipping him to control himself, but he’s a grown man with a family and the sense to market his name for fame and gain, so I’m not too sympathetic.

    I’m one of 10 children myself. Similar belief system growing up. I can spare *some* sympathy for him.

  290. Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Judaism concerns itself with the here and now. In contrast and by generalization (not to be confused with specific instances which differ), Christian thought concerns itself with heaven as a place you want to ‘get to’ by getting ‘saved’. Back in my Calvary Chapel days, C.S. Lewis was not on the approved reading list. It was felt that Lewis was not a ‘true Christian’ for some of the things he said in Mere Christianity.

    Point well taken, and it’s a fair generalization. Absolutely true that Judaism tends to concern itself more with the here and now, but in my not-so-humble opinion true Christianity is not so heaven-focused, it’s a lot more like Judaism (which is not entirely here-and-now anyway, witness the Pharisee-Sadducee debate on this matter chronicled in the NT, there have always been different schools of thought). Cults tend to be heaven-focused of course, but they do so in a distinctly unbiblical manner and they do so in spite of the fact that the Bible tells us essentially nothing about heaven, except some very odd and interesting metaphor here and there. Jesus tended to be quite here-and-now, though He also talked a bit of heaven.

    Funny, with regard to salvation, I tend to have few doubts about CS and grave doubts about CC.

  291. Max wrote:

    While participation in some groups may have some benefit in the early phases of recovery from an addiction, only the power of Christ can bring true freedom from it … not just any old “higher power.”

    Good* power is good power. All good power is from Christ, its various names are immaterial. May the force be with you.

    *C.S. Lewis argued cogently that good is good no matter where it comes from and that God’s goodness is not wholly other.

  292. @ numo:
    No, You misunderstand me. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I am not attacking the victims — assuming you mean Josh’s sisters.
    I’m saying, what would the outcome have been if the parents and their church had taught the girls to stand up for themselves and their rights as individuals instead of teaching (brainwashing????) them that females were made only to submit and serve …. submit and serve…..submit and serve.

  293. Muff Potter wrote:

    Max wrote:

    While participation in some groups may have some benefit in the early phases of recovery from an addiction, only the power of Christ can bring true freedom from it … not just any old “higher power.”

    Good* power is good power. All good power is from Christ, its various names are immaterial. May the force be with you.

    *C.S. Lewis argued cogently that good is good no matter where it comes from and that God’s goodness is not wholly other.

    Like in 1 John where we’re told God is love, and it’s not really qualified.

    Love, wherever it actually is, is of God. Love is a form of good.

    Dang I’m liberal.

  294. Godith wrote:

    What do posters here think of the statement that the generality of men are polyamorous?

    Never having been a man, of course, I cannot speak from their viewpoint. But I can see where a certain level of sexual opportunism on the part of the male would serve to help preserve the group/clan/tribe back in the days when life was more short and brutal than now and when maintaing the birth rate would be essential. Just as I can see that given the right circumstances a certain level of sexual selectivity on the part of the female might play into the general health and abilities of the succeeding generations. And I can see that it might be to the advantage of the female to keep the male around to help her raise the children, and therefore it might have been to her advantage to overlook said sexual opportunism back when. So, yes, I can see where such behaviors might take up in cultures and be difficult to weed out.

    I also see right here in my town some people who seem to live like that, to the extent that it perhaps looks like some subgroups of some subcultures apparently think this is the right way to live. This is common enough and public enough that I hesitate to think that all these people have some mental condition for which they need therapy. Some probably may, but sometimes it also can apparently be cultural. And then there is the alleged sexual behavior of a certain group of militants in the mid east right now.

    My conclusion: there is enough of this that when generalities are drawn there may be some basis for it.

    It is so hard to write this stuff on the one hand and still stay within the limits of the way civilized people are supposed to talk. Please don’t anybody think that I either think or talk like some paragraph in a term paper in real life.

  295. Nancy2 wrote:

    Seriously, I wonder …… If the Duggar girls weren’t being raised to be brainless, submissive little twits …

    And reality show actresses. Their lives have been a reality show. It is bizarre. I had never heard of them until blogging and was blown away these people had a show about their family!

  296. Lydia wrote:

    And reality show actresses. Their lives have been a reality show. It is bizarre. I had never heard of them until blogging and was blown away these people had a show about their family!

    Hmmmm …… they make “The Waltons” and “Little House on the Prairie” look like radical feminist shows, don’t they?!?

  297. Muff Potter wrote:

    Judaism concerns itself with the here and now. In contrast and by generalization (not to be confused with specific instances which differ), Christian thought concerns itself with heaven as a place you want to ‘get to’ by getting ‘saved’.

    Bingo. Which has huge implications for how we deal with the here and now. Christians have a tendency, in various forms, to divorce belief from behavior and that has some disasterous results.

  298. Nancy2 wrote:

    Hmmmm …… they make “The Waltons” and “Little House on the Prairie” look like radical feminist shows, don’t they?!?

    That is not a joke. I read something years back that some patriarchal groups considered Laura Ingells a prototype feminist for little girls.

  299. Daisy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Did Anna make a statement whereby she accepted part of the blame for Josh’s actions?!?
    According to a Daily Mail article, she is accepting partial blame, yes.
    The DM is chalking this up to a “family insider says.”

    It is the dailymail so there is some reason to doubt. Anna could clear it all up by issuing a public statement that it is nonsense and for further inquiries consult her divorce attorney. She has been lied to and betrayed in a massive and public way. If she was at TVC even they would not contest her right to a divorce, at least not after their drubbing over Karen.

  300. @ Bill M:
    Ha! “I think TVC would even grant a divorce here” is about the best description of a bad situation I can think of.

  301. GovPappy wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    Godith wrote:
    Did you read what JD Hall, et al. accused Janet Mefferd’s husband of?
    http://janetmefferd.com/2015/05/predators-dangerous-deviants-j-d-hall/
    Quite possibly projection on JD’s part.
    LP! I haven’t seen you around much. Good to see you.

    Good to see you, been on the road for weeks. Now back and tormenting students, so taking a little break here and there to make good, bad and indifferent comments on this forum.

  302. Lydia wrote:

    That is not a joke. I read something years back that some patriarchal groups considered Laura Ingells a prototype feminist for little girls.

    August 17, 2015 @ patheos.com
    “Quoting Quiverfull: Laura Ingalls Wilder Spread Evil Feminism”

    For the record, this Kentucky country girl was carrying a Swiss Army knife, building tobacco stick forts with the boys, and riding green broke horses and mules like a Banshee raider well before “Little House” made it’s TV debut.

  303. Lydia wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    Hmmmm …… they make “The Waltons” and “Little House on the Prairie” look like radical feminist shows, don’t they?!?
    That is not a joke. I read something years back that some patriarchal groups considered Laura Ingells a prototype feminist for little girls.

    Though if you really want to get down to brass tacks, Laura Ingalls was something of a protofeminist. She made a stink–in the 1880s no less–about taking Wilder’s name, and I get the impression, perhaps reading between the lines a bit, that she pretty well knocked him around. I personally think Laura Ingalls would be way too much of a woman for any opf those in the purity crowd, the Phillips and Gothards and Duggars to handle. She’d have chewed Jim Bob up and spit him out.

  304. Bill M wrote:

    She has been lied to and betrayed in a massive and public way. If she was at TVC even they would not contest her right to a divorce, at least not after their drubbing over Karen.

    I am thinking that she may not have any skills with which to earn a decent living, and even if she does just childcare for four little children would be prohibitive. And If they divorced, seeing that he has not committed a crime, he would? might? get 50/50 shared custody or at least get unsupervised visitation with the children, which might not work out well. It may be that she has few realistic options at this point.

  305. Muff Potter wrote:

    If you’re not a drunk Daisy, this is something you know nothing about. I’m a drunk and I know a great deal about being a drunk. AA is a good thing for the solidarity alone. Drunks in the same boat, doing something about it by staying sober.

    AA is horrible. And yes, I know about it. I researched it and have drunks in my family.

    Alcoholism runs on my mother’s side of the family.

    AA is cultic and not helpful and turns some of its members into critical people. That’s what it did to my brother.

    There are new treatments for alcoholism. AA is not terribly effective, even some of their own studies confirmed that (they are online).

    There are also dangers in AA meetings, one danger is known as “13 stepping” where old timers sexually prey on vulnerable women and those women’s kids (if they have kids).

  306. okrapod wrote:

    I am thinking that she may not have any skills with which to earn a decent living, and even if she does just childcare for four little children would be prohibitive.

    It is too bad that it becomes an economic calculation. I would not have thought that one way a christian community could reach out and help someone would be to support them in a divorce, in a case such as this, if that is the path they chose. But please don’t extrapolate my comment to more general situations.

  307. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Some forms of therapy are like that. They keep patients dependent on the therapist or the weekly therapy meetings for years, rather than healing them once for all.

    IIRC, Freudian therapy is bad about this, where they have a patient yak perpetually about their painful childhoods for years and years, and the therapist never helps the patient break free once for all.

    You would think helping the person break free from “X” forever by some point in time would be the major goal with most of these therapies or 13 step groups, but no, it seems the goal with some of them is to ween them off the drugs or emotional problems only to have them stay stuck in the group or the therapy.

  308. Bridget wrote:

    Or the rest of us can use our own brains to figure out that every Church body is not a cult and every AA group is different as well.

    There are many studies and articles online detailing the problems and ineffectiveness with AA. AA also attracts a lot of sexual predators. Judges will order guys to go to AA meetings, but because it’s all anonymous, the predators never admit in the meetings what they are (pedos, etc). So some women and kids have been raped/ molested at AA meetings, or shortly after (these guys follow them out of the meetings). It goes on and on. There are a fair number of forums and sites by ex AA members who detail all this stuff.

    I looked into it because my brother joined AA years ago and stayed in for years, and his behavior changed a bit, and not for the better.

    You might want to google for the phrase “13 stepping” to find more about sexual attacks that have happened via AA.

    After 75 Years of Alcoholics Anonymous, It’s Time to Admit We Have a Problem
    http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/75-years-alcoholics-anonymous-time-admit-problem-74268

  309. Daisy wrote:

    AA is horrible. And yes, I know about it. I researched it and have drunks in my family.
    Alcoholism runs on my mother’s side of the family.
    AA is cultic and not helpful and turns some of its members into critical people. That’s what it did to my brother.

    Maybe we can at least not be so dogmatic about this. What helps one person may not help another person and there are millions of AA groups. I’m sure there are some unhealthy ones, bit it does not mean that all, orneven the majority of them

  310. @ okrapod:
    I think you’re comparing apples and oranges.

    I don’t see how wanting to meet with others for spiritual purposes, e.g., praying together or singing hymns, comports to a person who keeps drinking and wants to stop drinking.

  311. @ Bridget:

    I hit post accidentally.

    , but it does not mean that all, or even most, of the groups are unhealthy. Making a statement that “AA is horrible.” to someone who has been helped by AA seems overly extreme.

  312. @ Bridget:

    I said on a much older post if some have been helped by AA, all well and good, but it has hurt some people.

    But you cannot be even a tiny bit critical of AA, because some of its members are as “gung ho” about defending AA as Steve Furtick Fan Boys are about defending Furtick or Elevation Church.

    There are a lot of sexual abuse that takes place in and around AA meetings by AA members. It’s rife in AA, like it is in some evangelical churches that are discussed on this blog.

  313. Nancy2 wrote:

    Seriously, I wonder …… If the Duggar girls weren’t being raised to be brainless, submissive little twits

    With that many children, I suspect the older children were raising the younger children. Anything is possible when the kids are in charge. It’s sort of like all those young whippersnapper preachers/elders in New Calvinism; the youth group is essentially running the church … and we see from the stream of abuse reports, that model isn’t working out too well.

  314. @ Bridget:
    There are many resources that talk about the dangers of AA especially in regards to 13 stepping (sometimes kids of women who attend AA are targeted by more advanced members). On other sites, I’ve read of rapes that have happened by AA members exploiting newer members.

    Source:
    http://www.expaa.org/13thsteppingandcrime.htm

    Snippet:

    With the increase of court mandated (or coerced) AA attendance, the percentage of sex offenders and violent persons in the program has risen.

    When criminals with a substance abuse problem get released from prison, it is often part of their parole agreement that he or she attend AA.

    Also, many 12 steppers solicit jails and prisons to recruit members and encourage meeting attendance upon discharge. These recruits are not limited to DUI offenses. Sexual and violent offenders often get sent to AA by parole officers and judges.

    Any dangerous felon can attend 12 step groups upon release and remain incognito. It is also common for judges to send young drinking offenders to AA. Mixing vulnerable people with a high rate of felons is paradoxical.

    Allowing this arrangement in a non structured group setting that doesn’t have safety procedures, code of conduct policies, or even warning pamphlets is a perfect recipe for disaster.

  315. Law Prof wrote:

    She’d have chewed Jim Bob up and spit him out.

    I wonder what they would have to say about Joan of Arc, Queen Elizabeth I (in honor of whom we have named our precocious little rat terrier/lab mix), Catherine the Great, Maria Montessori, and, one of my favorites, Annie Oakley??? ….All of whom, except for Montessori, predated Laura Ingalls …. along with many other women who bucked the system and blazed trails, of course!

  316. okrapod wrote:

    I am thinking that she may not have any skills with which to earn a decent living, and even if she does just childcare for four little children would be prohibitive. And If they divorced, seeing that he has not committed a crime, he would? might? get 50/50 shared custody or at least get unsupervised visitation with the children, which might not work out well. It may be that she has few realistic options at this point.

    Exactly. Plus the social pressure from the subculture to conform so as not to harm the “good” they are doing. I wonder what Anna’s parents and siblings and grandparents think about this mess.

  317. Daisy wrote:

    AA is cultic and not helpful and turns some of its members into critical people. That’s what it did to my brother.

    There are good and bad A.A. meetings/groups, just like there are churches.
    If your brother was critical, that was probably his nature and it showed up even when he wasn’t drinking.

    Yes, there are problems. But I know plenty of men and women whose lives have been saved and their families transformed by their sobriety and growth in those rooms. And that’s not a bad thing.

  318. Daisy wrote:

    On other sites, I’ve read of rapes that have happened by AA members exploiting newer members.

    There are women only meetings, if women wish to go to their own meetings. Ditto for some men-only AA meetings.

  319. Max wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    Whoever the Son sets free, is free indeed! Certain accountability groups can keep you captive (“you will always be an alcoholic”, “alcoholism is a disease”, “porn addiction is a tough battle to overcome”, etc.). While participation in some groups may have some benefit in the early phases of recovery from an addiction, only the power of Christ can bring true freedom from it … not just any old “higher power.”

    There are many things that the church isn’t qualified to address. I came out of a NeoCal church that believed in biblical counseling only. The pastors/elders were incompetent to deal with serious problems, including substance abuse, mental health problems, and other issues.

    One older woman was an alcoholic, did an incredible amount of damage in the church and in her family, and the pastors/elders did not get her in to a treatment program for alcoholics.

    I take my car to the mechanic for a tune-up. I go to the dentist for dental care. I go to the doctor’s office. Not everything can be solved, or should be solved, at church.

  320. Former CLC’er wrote:

    I was thinking last night that maybe Josh Duggar should go to an Every Man’s Battle workshop sponsored by New Life Ministries. I don’t know anyone who’s been, but I generally like their approach to things as they present it in books and radio shows, and maybe he could actually get help for his problem rather than feeling like his life is over, because it doesn’t have to be. He could actually be a model of redemption if he truly repents and follows a program of accountability and restoration.

    How about Dan Allender and The Wounded Heart, dealing with abuse, trauma, sex addiction and recovery?

  321. Gabriel wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    I think real bona fide Christians are being driven out of the church.

    I believe this too. Also if we stop idolizing local church but look at THE CHURCH as the redeemed bride of Christ our perspective will change from the consumerist, politically infested church and on a elevated vision of a relationship with Christ.

    This is a conversation I want to see expand.

    Amen.

    We can expand the conversation over on the Open Discussion Board here.

  322. Velour wrote:

    There are good and bad A.A. meetings/groups, just like there are churches.
    If your brother was critical, that was probably his nature and it showed up even when he wasn’t drinking.
    Yes, there are problems.

    I do get that.

    But can you not see how this is similar to how when Deb and Dee do a new post highlighting that Church X, of Theology J and church system Z which is pastored by Joe Smith is covering for a pedo, immediately their blog is flooded with several very vocal and hostile Church X members who tell us that “but not every church is bad” or “but not all of Theology J is tainted” or “But the laxness towards pedos aside, Pastor Joe is really swell.” etc.

    It’s the same dynamic. People who feel they have been helped by a particular AA group or AA in general will become very defensive of any and all AA criticism anytime it’s brought up.

    Both of my siblings are alcoholics. The sister quite on her own, no AA needed (she still drinks moderately, but I don’t think has gotten drunk in years), while the brother went to AA for many years. Don’t know if he still attends or not.

  323. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Many years ago, I heard of one aberrant group that actually officially named themselves “The Local Church” and appropriated ALL the Biblical references to refer to themselves and themselves alone.

    They may have been an aberrant group insofar as they were more open about it than most. But they’re far from being the only ones – actually it’s commonplace in the UK that one, new, and often small church that never grows above a few dozen people at most, will name itself after a large city.

    But quite apart from that, the mindset you mention is exactly what is present in most denominations and most local para-church organisations: “the local church” is perfectly contained within their four walls and they provide a one-stop shop conferring “covering” and “protection” on the believers huddled within. Even those groups that are not so arrogant as to believe they are the only church, still believe that these self-contained splinter groups is “a local church” and that it is vital to the life of a believer to be “under the covering” (or similar vocabulary) to “a local church”. And when they talk about “the” local church, that’s what they mean by the phrase.

  324. Velour wrote:

    There are women only meetings, if women wish to go to their own meetings

    That may be, but do new members know that? The horror stories I read indicate that women are attending mixed gender meetings.

    My brother was critical prior to AA, but he became very victim- blaming after attending several years, which is one reason I cannot talk to him, or must be careful what I divulge to him if we do talk.

    Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12 step programs are heavily into victim blaming, under the guise of getting people to take personal accountability / personal responsibility.

    I am fine with the concept of personal responsibility, but they go too far with it, to the point that sometimes rape victims get blamed for being raped by their AA sponsors or fellow AA members!

    One ex AA group had audio of an AA sponsor (adult male) mocking a little eight year old child he heard crying on the news, because she had been raped!

    This AA guy felt this girl should have just shut up about it and accepted her role in the attack. There is no sympathy for people in these sorts of groups.

    I can’t remember where I saw the link to that audio, but I did find this:

    Alcoholics Anonymous, Depression, and Suicide
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-addiction/201408/alcoholics-anonymous-depression-and-suicide

    Snippet:
    Even if someone was raped as a child, AA asks the victims to blame themselves for being raped and to make amends to their rapist. There is no exorcism of demons of the past through confrontation. This schema of self-blame is a highly depressogenic aspect of 12 step programs.
    ——-
    That sounds similar to the IFB churches that demand that female rape victims apologize to their rapists and forgive them on the spot.

    My brother was like this after attending AA for years. Impossible to chat with him about any issues I was having, because he would always assume I was to blame somehow, even if was not.

    If I told him I went swimming in the ocean and a shark bit my arm off, he would imply it was my fault: “Ask yourself, what role did you play in that?” – very victim blaming rhetoric, no compassion for people, no, “oh, I’m sorry to hear that, are you okay now?”

    The overlap between abuse in AA and the cover ups of it is so similar to the sort of pedo-cover up and minimization that goes on among some churches.

  325. No one has come out of the woodwork to comment about AA.

    Maybe the AA content comments should go to the Open Discussion thread.

  326. Lydia wrote:

    Christians have a tendency, in various forms, to divorce belief from behavior and that has some disasterous results.

    They even have a clobber text to prove that all my good deeds and acts of kindness to others are filthy rags and that I’m fodder for hell regardless (Isaiah 64:6).

  327. @ Daisy:

    We could argue the pros and cons of AA from now until hell freezes over and still not convince the other of the ‘rightness’ of our respective positions. Worse yet, it would derail the thread. The best we can do is to agree to disagree peacefully.

  328. Pingback: Why People Are Angry About Joshgate 2.0 | Extra Ecclesiam Est Libertas

  329. Bill M wrote:

    She has been lied to and betrayed in a massive and public way. If she was at TVC even they would not contest her right to a divorce

    Not so sure. If TVC follows John Piper’s teachings, they certainly WOULD contest her right to divorce.

    The reality is, Anna is trapped. I would love her to escape, but it’s just not going to happen. Where could she go? Women in this system are like slaves – they are essentially the property of their husbands and have zero independence, financial or otherwise.

  330. Law Prof wrote:

    if you really want to get down to brass tacks, Laura Ingalls was something of a protofeminist. She made a stink–in the 1880s no less–about taking Wilder’s name, and I get the impression, perhaps reading between the lines a bit, that she pretty well knocked him around. I personally think Laura Ingalls would be way too much of a woman for any opf those in the purity crowd, the Phillips and Gothards and Duggars to handle.

    She also refused to vow to obey her husband (Almanzo Wilder) at her wedding. Luckily, the minister who married them held the same view. How things have regressed in the Christian world.

  331. Law Prof wrote:

    Though if you really want to get down to brass tacks, Laura Ingalls was something of a protofeminist. She made a stink–in the 1880s no less–about taking Wilder’s name, and I get the impression, perhaps reading between the lines a bit, that she pretty well knocked him around. I personally think Laura Ingalls would be way too much of a woman for any opf those in the purity crowd, the Phillips and Gothards and Duggars to handle. She’d have chewed Jim Bob up and spit him out.

    She also refused to vow to obey her husband (Almanzo Wilder) at their wedding. Luckily the minister shared her view. How things have regressed since then.

  332. @ Velour:
    The church can never fix a broken person … Jesus can. The problem with most churches is they steer folks into religion, not relationship. Only a a personal relationship with the living Christ can set you free.

  333. Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    The church can never fix a broken person … Jesus can. The problem with most churches is they steer folks into religion, not relationship. Only a a personal relationship with the living Christ can set you free.

    I agree. But people need help along the way. It’s a one-another, seeking wise counsel, etc. People stuck in problems in isolation need help.

  334. Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    The church can never fix a broken person … Jesus can. The problem with most churches is they steer folks into religion, not relationship. Only a a personal relationship with the living Christ can set you free.

    Max, I really appreciate your commentary here…

  335. Daisy wrote:

    It’s the same dynamic. People who feel they have been helped by a particular AA group or AA in general will become very defensive of any and all AA criticism anytime it’s brought up

    Even liberals have noted this. Those more mature in A.A. know there are problems. And they deal with them in a healthy way.

  336. @Daisy,

    I know a lot of people, men and women, who work the A.A. program. They are nice, healthy, decent people. None of the things that you posted I have ever heard of, nor they. It’s simply not done. When A.A. says that a member doesn’t speak publicly for their organization as a whole, they mean it.

    Bridget noted that we should move any further discussion about A.A. over to the Open Discussion thread.

  337. Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    The church can never fix a broken person … Jesus can. The problem with most churches is they steer folks into religion, not relationship. Only a a personal relationship with the living Christ can set you free.

    Just a follow-up note. At my former NeoCal Church, whose pastors/elders I learned didn’t believe in *outside help*, they were more than willing to spend years of my time and that of other church members in meetings about getting along with the alcoholic woman member. The pastors/elders were in way over their heads and caused much harm to many church members and to that woman’s family. All because the pastors/elders were too proud to admit that yes, outside professional help for these major problems can be beneficial to people. Their *Biblical counseling* didn’t work.

  338. Leslie wrote:

    Much damage has been done. They are trying to get out, but they and their children have suffered and are suffering much damage.@ Nancy2:

    Hi Leslie,

    I don’t know if you have heard of Dr. Ronald Enroth’s excellent, well-known books on spiritually abusive churches. He has made them available for free now online, here:

    Churches That Abuse

    http://www.ccel.us/churches.toc.html

    Recovering from Churches That Abuse
    http://www.ccel.us/churchesrec.toc.html

  339. Velour wrote:

    Their *Biblical counseling* didn’t work.

    It seldom does, if you look to the Book of the Lord, rather than the Lord of the Book. New Calvinists over-emphasize the Bible and under-emphasize Jesus, from which our help comes.

  340. Velour wrote:

    All because the pastors/elders were too proud to admit that yes, outside professional help for these major problems can be beneficial to people. Their *Biblical counseling* didn’t work.

    Oh, yes, completely true. It is a scandal, but a money-making scandal. Moore dropped the state-accredited counseling program at SBTS behind the mask of fundamentalism, but it was really because they couldn’t meet the standards and the cost was prohibitive. Now they peddle “biblical counseling”, and some folks are just gullible enough to believe such a thing even exists.

  341. Max wrote:

    New Calvinists over-emphasize the Bible and under-emphasize Jesus, from which our help comes.

    Yes, that is true Max. Perhaps you don’t agree with outside professional help for people for serious problems?

  342. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    All because the pastors/elders were too proud to admit that yes, outside professional help for these major problems can be beneficial to people. Their *Biblical counseling* didn’t work.

    Oh, yes, completely true. It is a scandal, but a money-making scandal. Moore dropped the state-accredited counseling program at SBTS behind the mask of fundamentalism, but it was really because they couldn’t meet the standards and the cost was prohibitive. Now they peddle “biblical counseling”, and some folks are just gullible enough to believe such a thing even exists.

    The money-making/cost-savings and the whole shift of the SBTS to something that, as my conservative Christian men friends in Europe (long-time elders in their churches have said), has more in common with radical-Islam than with our freedom in Christ.

  343. @ Velour:
    Velour, don’t read me wrong. I do believe folks can get help from outside professional counselors … but true healing can only come through Jesus. A LOT of spiritual problems which underlie certain addictions go untreated in the right way. Most church “Biblical” counseling is more psychology than spiritual; New Calvinists in their 20s-40s should not be dabbling in it. If you don’t have it in you to set them free in Jesus’ name, send them to counselors who can at least calm their turmoil.

  344. Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Velour, don’t read me wrong. I do believe folks can get help from outside professional counselors … but true healing can only come through Jesus. A LOT of spiritual problems which underlie certain addictions go untreated in the right way. Most church “Biblical” counseling is more psychology than spiritual; New Calvinists in their 20s-40s should not be dabbling in it. If you don’t have it in you to set them free in Jesus’ name, send them to counselors who can at least calm their turmoil.

    Thanks, Max, for clarifying. There can be both spiritual and biological issues behind addictions. I am all in favor of appropriate professional care. I know excellent doctors who got people – including Christians – into proper professional treatment programs for alcohol or drugs. There were other physical issues as well. It saved their lives.

  345. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    All because the pastors/elders were too proud to admit that yes, outside professional help for these major problems can be beneficial to people. Their *Biblical counseling* didn’t work.
    Oh, yes, completely true. It is a scandal, but a money-making scandal. Moore dropped the state-accredited counseling program at SBTS behind the mask of fundamentalism, but it was really because they couldn’t meet the standards and the cost was prohibitive. Now they peddle “biblical counseling”, and some folks are just gullible enough to believe such a thing even exists.

    I was wondering about credentials for their counseling program now. What would be the benefit to their program?

  346. Nancy2 wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    She’d have chewed Jim Bob up and spit him out.
    I wonder what they would have to say about Joan of Arc, Queen Elizabeth I (in honor of whom we have named our precocious little rat terrier/lab mix), Catherine the Great, Maria Montessori, and, one of my favorites, Annie Oakley??? ….All of whom, except for Montessori, predated Laura Ingalls …. along with many other women who bucked the system and blazed trails, of course!

    How about Moses’s wife Zipporah who got in his face, called him “Husband of blood” (I assume an insult) and literally saved his life by taking matters into her own hands when he was disobeying the Lord)?

    Or Abigail, the beautiful, intelligent wife who had more wisdom and initiative than her fool husband Nabal (name meant “fool”) and tried in vain to save him?

    Or those lightly-regarded women who stood by Jesus’ side at the cross when all others had betrayed Him, save John, because they were a bunch of cowards (and to whom Jesus later appeared first, before any of the Disciples, perhaps in acknowledgement of their prominence)?

    Or the Proverbs 31 woman, the hard-driving entrepreneur?

    The purity crowd can’t handle a real woman of God, they’re too much the cowards, perhaps that’s why they work so hard to knock all the life out of their women.

  347. May wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Though if you really want to get down to brass tacks, Laura Ingalls was something of a protofeminist. She made a stink–in the 1880s no less–about taking Wilder’s name, and I get the impression, perhaps reading between the lines a bit, that she pretty well knocked him around. I personally think Laura Ingalls would be way too much of a woman for any opf those in the purity crowd, the Phillips and Gothards and Duggars to handle. She’d have chewed Jim Bob up and spit him out.
    She also refused to vow to obey her husband (Almanzo Wilder) at their wedding. Luckily the minister shared her view. How things have regressed since then.

    Funny. By the way you’re right, that’s what it was, the oath of obedience, not so much the name, though of course, she did include the name “Ingalls” in her later published works, so I must assume she had it in for the name as well. You’re the second person today who’s corrected me on that. The first was my wife. 🙂

  348. Law Prof wrote:

    Or those lightly-regarded women who stood by Jesus’ side at the cross when all others had betrayed Him, save John, because they were a bunch of cowards (and to whom Jesus later appeared first, before any of the Disciples, perhaps in acknowledgement of their prominence)?

    That is one of my favorite stories. Surely he honored them by appointing them as his apostles to the apostles, witnesses who were considered nothing but who carried the Good News of his resurrection.

  349. mirele wrote:

    OK, I can’t believe I’m doing this, but absent more evidence, I’m going to give Josh the benefit of the doubt. Not because I don’t believe he couldn’t have done it. But because Ashley Madison had the very bad practice of not verifying email accounts.

    I’m sure somewhere in the bajillion comments above this has been mentioned, but the hack included not only e-mail addresses but credit card names and billing addresses. As someone on Free Jinger said (several people, in fact), unless someone obtained his credit card(s) and paid almost $1000 over a 2-year period to blackmail him (and somehow knew AM’s servers would be hacked one day), Josh Duggar is the person who created both those accounts, one from Grandma Duggar’s rent house where Josh and Anna lived the first 3 years of their married life (such as it was) and the other at their DC address after he accepted the job as the face/spokesperson for the FRC. (To the FRC’s credit they dropped him like a hot rock when the first scandal broke.)

  350. It appears Josh is now trying to cash in on this situation, trying to get $100,000 per interview from the major networks. Hope they don’t give him anything.

  351. Nancy2 wrote:

    Max wrote:If the Duggar girls weren’t being raised to be brainless, submissive little twits ……. if only one of them would have had the audacity to crack Josh’s jaw or break a couple of his fingers when he put his hands where he shouldn’t have ……
    Would that have had any effect on Josh in the long run?

    Breaking several of his fingers might have slowed down some of the “hand sex” he and Anna engaged in after they were engaged. And I don’t mean THAT kind of “hand sex”! In episodes of 19KAC from that time everytime you saw them Josh was holding onto one or both of her hands with one or both of his hands with him pretty much “doing the deed” with his hands in hers. It was pretty gross.

  352. notastepfordsheep wrote:

    In episodes of 19KAC from that time everytime you saw them Josh was holding onto one or both of her hands with one or both of his hands with him pretty much “doing the deed” with his hands in hers. It was pretty gross.

    I thought only middle school age adolescents did that.

  353. Nancy2 wrote:

    notastepfordsheep wrote:
    In episodes of 19KAC from that time everytime you saw them Josh was holding onto one or both of her hands with one or both of his hands with him pretty much “doing the deed” with his hands in hers. It was pretty gross.
    I thought only middle school age adolescents did that.

    Let’s face it. These kids are so repressed they are emotionally the same age as middle school adolescents.

  354. Max wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Sin will take you farther than you want to go, leave you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you want to pay.

    Yes, one of my favorite Adrian Rogers quotes.

  355. notastepfordsheep wrote:

    And I don’t mean THAT kind of “hand sex”! In episodes of 19KAC from that time everytime you saw them Josh was holding onto one or both of her hands with one or both of his hands with him pretty much “doing the deed” with his hands in hers. It was pretty gross.

    When there’s no normal outlet (like getting to know her, enjoying her presence, etc), you’ll develop various forms of paraphiliae/sexual fetishes as a substitute. In his case, Christianese Hand Sex (hand-to-hand only?) until he could Do the Deed for Real. Probably touching hand-to-hand was the only thing permitted by the chaperones/dueannas/harem guards, so horny Josh made the most of it.

    It’s like the scenes in Left Behind where one of the Author Self-Inserts “courts” the daughter of the other Author Self-Insert. In Christianese fiction tropes, any connection between the two means they have to be bums-rushed to the altar (even in the midst of the Tribulation) but without anything even suggesting sexual attraction (can’t offend the Church Ladies who buy the books). The result is a surreal scene of “synchronized cookie snarfing” where the Author Self-Insert eats a cookie on the air while his submissive goodwife watches on TV and eats a cookie at the same time, chew by chew. Cookie-eating fetish. THAT’s what this reminds me of.

  356. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    You left out Jael.

    Jael… One woman you do NOT want to mess with.

    (Does anybody have the link to the Precious Moments version of Jael? I know somebody did it as a parody, I’ve seen it before.)

  357. Also, note what Josh was looking for at Ashley Madison, his “Infernal Venus”, his “Forbidden Fruit”, his “Jezebel”, his “Whore from Proverbs”:

    A regular “jeans-and-T-shirt type”.
    What the mainstream would consider “a regular girl-next-door”.

    Think about it.
    Josh was raised so deep in the Purity/Courtship/Quiverfull bubble that what the rest of us would call “just a normal girl” is his Forbidden Fruit Whore of Babylon. What does that tell you?

  358. @ Deb:
    Yes, Adrianisms are some of the best – I failed to quote him. Dr. Rogers was my folks’ pastor. Even with a congregation numbering in the thousands, he found time to visit folks in the hospital. My mother was the recipient of some powerful prayers offered by this servant of God in the last years of her life. Adrian Rogers was the model of a true pastor … bold in the pulpit, but humble in his service in Jesus’ name.

  359. Max wrote:

    he found time to visit folks in the hospital

    Which reminds me … none of the “lead pastors” in SBC-YRR church plants in my area do that! At best, sick folks might get a visit from their small group leader or one of the young “elders” might show up to pray for them. Doing church in New Calvinist ranks is different in a lot of ways from the fuddy-duddy way I was raised, I suppose. But some things should never change.

  360. Max wrote:

    Which reminds me … none of the “lead pastors” in SBC-YRR church plants in my area do that!

    Too busy Perfectly Parsing their Theology from the Ex Cathedra thrones of their Little Genevas?

  361. Max wrote:

    Max wrote:

    he found time to visit folks in the hospital

    Which reminds me … none of the “lead pastors” in SBC-YRR church plants in my area do that! At best, sick folks might get a visit from their small group leader or one of the young “elders” might show up to pray for them. Doing church in New Calvinist ranks is different in a lot of ways from the fuddy-duddy way I was raised, I suppose. But some things should never change.

    My former NeoCal church pastors/elders did the hospital visit thing. I thought of it as a public relations campaign, like a batterer. Behind closed doors, the pastors/elders were horrible, threatening and abusive to church members.

  362. mirele wrote:

    OK, I can’t believe I’m doing this, but absent more evidence, I’m going to give Josh the benefit of the doubt. Not because I don’t believe he couldn’t have done it. But because Ashley Madison had the very bad practice of not verifying email accounts.

    And how do I know this? One day a few months back, my gmail account absolutely got stuffed with all sorts of OMG from Ashley Madison.

    Just to clear things up a bit.

    There are many people on the planet who get emails from AM. These are marketing emails. They likely send emails to any email address they can find. Or if they are a bit “ethical” any email address they can acquire via some what shady means. (This is a huge topic and I’m not going down that rabbit hole.) But apparently they do honor unsubscribe requests which, from an email point of view, makes them better than most sleazy internet operations.

    These emails are likely what you received. My email server gets these from AM addressed to various email addresses hosted on my server. (Which reminds me I need to address some of my blocks again.)

    The controversy here is about people who created an account with AM. And mostly likely to do this you had to provide and email address then answer a verification email sent to that address. This is an entirely different thing that what you likely got. It required a positive response from someone who had access to a specific email account.

  363. Deb wrote:

    And he was definitely not a Calvinist.

    Deb, I sometimes wonder if Dr. Rogers grieved in the years before his death, when he saw the “Conservative” Resurgence he helped orchestrate turn into a “Calvinist” Resurgence. He was outspoken about his concerns with reformed theology – indeed, he was definitely not a Calvinist!

  364. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    There are many people on the planet who get emails from AM. These are marketing emails. They likely send emails to any email address they can find. Or if they are a bit “ethical” any email address they can acquire via some what shady means.

    Yes, this. I have a website online for my business, and the contact email address there is regularly harvested by bots. Not long ago I was getting multiple AM marketing emails per day.

  365. Daisy wrote:

    Yes, I feel sorry for the wife (and the kids), but don’t have much sympathy for Josh Duggar in any of this. I don’t think taking an interest in this story necessarily makes anyone a “circling vulture.”

    I agree with you 100%, Daisy. And I have a feeling that more revelations may be at hand. This guy is a real piece of work.

  366. Velour wrote:

    I also have wondered for a long time if Josh Duggar was sexually abused and whom sexually abused him.

    Me too.

  367. A Georgia Mom’s Open Letter To Anna Duggar

    JESSICA KIRKLAND’S FULL ‘BREATHE FIRE’ POST

    I know everybody is laughing about this Josh Duggar story. Oh, a DUGGAR on Ashley Madison, it’s so rich! I wish more people would talk about Anna. I normally keep things light on Facebook, but let’s talk about Anna. Let me tell you: Anna Duggar is in the worst position she could possibly be in right now. Anna Duggar was crippled by her parents by receiving no education, having no work experience (or life experience, for that matter) and then was shackled to this loser because his family was famous in their religious circle. Anna Duggar was taught that her sole purpose in life, the most meaningful thing she could do, was to be chaste and proper, a devout wife, and a mother. Anna Duggar did that! Anna Duggar followed the rules that were imposed on her from the get-go and this is what she got in reward- a husband who she found out, in the span of six months, not only molested his own sisters, but was unfaithful to her in the most humiliating way possible. While she was fulfilling her “duty” of providing him with four children and raising them. She lived up to the standard that men set for her of being chaste and Godly and in return, the man who demanded this of her sought women who were the opposite. “Be this,” they told her. She was. It wasn’t enough.

    What is Anna Duggar supposed to do? She can’t divorce because the religious environment she was brought up would blame her and ostracize her for it. Even if she would risk that, she has no education and no work experience to fall back on, so how does she support her kids? From where could she summon the ability to turn her back on everything she ever held to be sacred and safe? Her beliefs, the very thing she would turn to for comfort in this kind of crisis, are the VERY REASON she is in this predicament in the first place. How can she reconcile this? Her parents have utterly, utterly failed her. Think of this: somewhere, Anna Duggar is sitting in prayer, praying not for the strength to get out and stand on her own, but for the strength to stand by this man she is unfortunately married to. To lower herself so that he may rise up on her back.

    As a mother of daughters, this makes me ill. Parents, WE MUST DO BETTER BY OUR DAUGHTERS. Boys, men, are born with power. Girls have to command it for themselves. They aren’t given it. They assume it and take it. But you have to teach them to do it, that they can do it. We HAVE to teach our daughters that they are not beholden to men like this. That they don’t have to marry a man their father deems ‘acceptable’ and then stay married to that man long, long after he proved himself UNACCEPTABLE. Educate them. Empower them. Give them the tools they need to survive, on their own if they must. Josh Duggar should be cowering in fear of Anna Duggar right now. Cowering. He isn’t, but he should be. He should be quaking in fear that the house might fall down around them if he’s in the same room as she. Please, instill your daughters with the resolve to make a man cower if he must. To say “I don’t deserve this, and my children don’t deserve this.” I wish someone had ever, just once, told Anna she was capable of this. That she knew she is. As for my girls, I’ll raise them to think they breathe fire.
    .

  368. zooey111 wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Yes, I feel sorry for the wife (and the kids), but don’t have much sympathy for Josh Duggar in any of this. I don’t think taking an interest in this story necessarily makes anyone a “circling vulture.”

    I agree with you 100%, Daisy. And I have a feeling that more revelations may be at hand. This guy is a real piece of work.

    Especially since the AM hackers slipped him The Red Pill (switcheroo for his usual Blue?); now we get to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

  369. @ Daisy:

    Hi Daisy,

    I’m a little late to the party, but your posts regarding AA caught my attention. I totally agree with you 100%. AA made my drunk of a father worse. He even found people there to cheat on my mother with. Except for a rare few, they’d spend most of their time in meetings blame-shifting their drinking problems on others, all while pretending to “make amends” (one of the 12 steps) to their victims.

    If you think AA is bad, Al-Anon is even worse. They made it out like I had a disease called codependency and would be stuck in their meetings for the rest of my life. My mother and I were the bad guys. It was our fault my father drank. That was the mantra, thinly veiled under the term “codependency”. Yes, some people are very codependent with their addict family members. I get that. But that wasn’t us. They just assumed, and blamed, and made us go through the 12 steps as if we were the addicts. We needed healing from the years of abuse we suffered, and instead we got to be abused all over again. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.

    In AA, the drunk is always a drunk. He’s never delivered from it. Same with Al-Anon. Once always codependent, always codependent. Stuck in a weekly meeting to get your graces doled out in the form of stupid little chips, which Al-Anon didn’t even have the decency to dole out to me. Why don’t I get a chip? I had to do the 12 steps to and make amends to my abuser even though I didn’t codepend with him. On the contrary, I stood up to him, and paid the price. I nearly went homeless for it. And I didn’t get a chip.

    And, well, doesn’t having your graces doled out in weekly meetings sound familiar? Sort of like…church! “Church is a hospital for sinners”. Once a sinner, always a sinner. Get your graces doled out at your Sunday meetings. Never redeemed, never freed. Just a forgiven sinner, but only forgiven so long as you keep going to meetings. There’s more in common with AA/Al-Anon and church than we usually give credit for.

    Newsflash: If you are repentant, then you’re not a drunk anymore. You’re in Christ, and that’s the definition of who you are. Yeah, you might still be struggling with temptation and need some group solidarity to give encouragement (the real purpose of church), but you’ve been washed of that sin, along with all other sins. We may still stumble, but through Christ we can get back up. We don’t have to stay there and let sin reign in our bodies any longer. A drunk is someone who is actively drinking. A thief is someone who actively steals. Not doing those things anymore? Your sins have been forgiven in Christ? Congratulations! You’re a new creature. Temptation is different from the act. I refuse to let temptation to do something wrong define who I am. I am in Christ. I want to be like Him. 1 John says that he who sins is of the devil. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to refer to myself as currently being a sinner. Yes, I stumble and sin, but in contrast to the practicing sinner, I confess and repent, and am washed and forgiven in return. I can’t continue in sin, because God’s seed abides in me. God will take me by the scruff and yank me out of that cesspool if I try to live in it. I’m in Christ now, being conformed to His image. It’s a process, but it’s happening. That’s the difference between a drunk or any other kind of practicing sinner, and the repentant, humble Christian who is redeemed. And that difference is never taught in AA or Al-Anon, which is why they are stuck in their meetings for the rest of their lives.

  370. @ Daisy:
    Hmm, I’m sorry that’s your experience Daisy. Mine is different as the daughter of an alcoholic (we also have a whole chain of alcoholics on one side & the other side are Irish, so…)who did not drink for the last 20 years of his life due to the help he found at AA. My Mum also found huge help at Al-Anon where what she learnt was that it was not her fault, that he was the only one who could change himself & not to enable him in any way, which included divorcing him eventually. My Dad went on to be a sponsor for others I believe, & his being on the wagon meant he could re-start his life with a second family, in another country & be a Barrister again. I have a lot to thank AA for.