“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless–it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable." – CS Lewis link
(See end of post for part of the transcript added at 2:03PM)
Why this repost prior to further discussion on The Village Church/Root story:
The question is: What is TVC afraid of in this video?
Yesterday, our good friend Tom Rich (aka The Dawg) received a message from Vimeo that TVC demanded that his video of Matt Chandler behaving badly be removed from Vimeo. Both Tom and TWW had posted the story of Chandler's rant back in 2010: Tom's post
TVC is in the midst of a dustup on how they treated the former wife of Jordan Root, Jordan has been credilby accused of accessing disgusting images of little kids who are being sexually abused. So, why would they take time, in the midst of this crisis, to play "Let's take down the video?"
Bloggers always wonder why any leader or church suddenly decides to wipe videos, sermons, etc off the web. In fact, it makes us become more curious. It is rather obvious that TVC does not want this video to be viewed in light of the current situation. So, to keep things honest, we are posting our original take on the sermon, a link to Tom's post and a link to Alvin Reid's post on Dealing With Critics in which he extols Chandler's blunt delivery. Funny-they didn't contact him to take down the audio over there. Was it because Reid likes this presentation? You can listen to it at Reid's site until it is deep sixed.
Tom is pursuing the removal of the video with Vimeo and we hope to have it up again soon. If it happens we will repost it at TWW as well.
Too bad they didn't let sleeping dawgs(sic) lie. This post would never have happened. Now the sermon will garner even more interest. Imagine signing a *covenant* at a church in which the pastor goes ballistic over an anonymous critic.
Also, thank you to the number of people who have been forwarding the email that TVC sent yesterday to 6,000 covenant ™ members.
PS Do you know that Matt Chandler did not reach out personally to Karen yet he says he *loves* her. Hmm-try that one with your kids.
Link to Tom Rich's post Why So Much Angst About Anonymous Critics?
Dear Matt
Recently, you criticized an anonymous critic. You called him a narcissistic zero. I found this statement breathtakingly naïve and cruel but hesitated to take you on. Why? Because you were diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor last winter. I, unfortunately, know all too well the pain and devastation of such a diagnosis. One of my daughters was diagnosed with a large malignant brain tumor with an exceedingly poor prognosis at the age of 3. In fact, she was operated on at Dallas Children's Hospital, right near you.
For a number of years we did not know what course the tumor would take and spent many days and nights agonizing over her illness. It is a nightmare to watch your child suffer. Thankfully, she survived this illness and is about to graduate with a BS degree in nursing. Her sweet life was preserved and we are most grateful to God for His mercy to our family.
One of the most difficult assignments for me, as my daughter was growing up, was to treat her as a normal child. Many people make the mistake of overprotecting an ill child and bear the consequences of producing a fearful and dependent child who becomes an insecure and needy adult. So, I would hold my breath and allowed her to be a cheerleader with all of the frequent bumps of the head. We let her spend the night with friends and travel with other families. She is a self- assured young woman today as a result of us allowing her the dignity of being a “normal” child.
I have followed your medical course with great interest and have prayed for your healing. I have listened to your health update videos and have an understanding of how you perceive your disease. On one video you state that you believe that God has healed you and that you are going to live until 70. I pray that this is so.
I, on the other hand, had little such assurance during the early years of my daughter’s illness. I knew that God could heal her but that He doesn’t usually heal those who have such an illness. I have watched many children, who were prayed for, go home to Jesus. I learned to lean on Him and trust Him, no matter the outcome.
Consequently, according to your video updates, you have decided to live life fully. You continue to travel frequently and speak at conferences while at the same time managing a three campus church beset with issues such as a pastor who apparently overdosed on sleeping pills and died; as well as a church leader whose child has been diagnosed with a serious illness.
Frankly, I don’t know how you manage to lead your church staff, spend time with and love your church members, instruct and build up the church leadership and cope with a potentially life threatening illness while having quality family time. I remember my own husband telling me that he thought our train had “stopped” when our daughter got sick and that we needed to slow down and regroup as a family. Your energy seems boundless.
In light of your “full speed ahead” philosophy, I have decided that the greatest compliment that I can pay you is to respond to your pronouncements in an open and honest manner. In other words, I will not treat you as a sick, weak man. However, as only those who have been through potentially terminal illnesses can understand, you, as well as your family, will continue to be in my prayers as I pray for complete healing from this devastating illness..
As I have said, you lead a busy life, speaking at conferences around the world while managing a three-campus church in the North Texas area. Said church was once called First Baptist of Highland Village and is now called the Village Church. You are a member of an elite group of pastors who are involved with the Gospel Coalition and Together for the Gospel. You count CJ Mahaney and Mac Brunson among your many friends. According to those “in the know” your church is highly successful because you now have 5,000 members. And this, I believe, is a key to the problem that I perceive. More on that shortly.
Recently, “the Dawg” over at FBC Jax Watchdog posted an interesting video that you made. I had a hard time finding it so I have linked to his post. For those who are reading this, Dawg's post is worth a close read after viewing the video.
In this video, you are upset that you received an anonymous email that criticizes a particular action you have chosen to take. You call this person “spiteful”, “pathetic” and a “narcissistic zero”. Harsh words, indeed.
On your blog you said the following:
“As you can see, I am opinionated and that is what this column is based upon – my opinion. I respect other people's opinions and their right to disagree with me. What I don't respect is people who attack something, via telephone messages, e-mail, and letters, and then don't have the nerve to sign their name. I attach a byline to everything I write and I stand behind my work. I welcome criticism and opposing views, but to me someone who doesn't even have the conviction to sign their name to their words shouldn't even bother to put pen to paper.”
Matt, you have chosen to go public with your speaking and thoughts. I hope I am correct in assuming that you want pastors who belong to the Gospel Coalition to change the way they do business since you give them lots of suggestions and exhortation. You are the one who have chosen to go beyond your church to become a public speaker and I am going public with my concerns. This week, our formerly anonymous blog, will be publishing our names and contact information.
You blew a marvelous opportunity to disciple your email writer and ended up looking like just another one of those over-hyped, thin-skinned, ho-hum, authority junkies who take lessons in intimidation from the likes of “just punch them in the nose” Mark Driscoll types.
Here is the problem as I see it. You appear to believe that you have been given some form of special “authority” and that this means you can act like a tough guy when one of your church members gets out of line. I believe that the underlying reason for such attitudes stems from the fact that you are not functioning as a pastor. Instead, you perceive your task is to tell other preachers how to preach. You are on the circuit and it must be gratifying to receive such accolades from around the world.
But, are you truly a pastor? When does the discipleship happen or is it done "on the fly?" You have precious little time to grow in intimacy with those who come to your local church because you are rarely around. Running in to do the Sunday sermon is not the same thing.
Finally, someone in your congregation gets up the guts to write an email to you. He/she is a bit afraid of you, the pastor, because you are not really one of them. You are more like a television star, to be admired, not known. Maybe he or she got to shake your hand once after church. So the person takes a stab at an email.
You could have said the following but you didn't.
“I know that it took some courage for you to ask me this question. Somehow I have given the impression that I am unapproachable and for that I am sorry. I always have enough time to hear from you and I promise that I will listen and consider your request. You are precious to me and I love you. Please let me know when we can get together.”
Then, since you say that it is easy to contact you, you could put your phone number and email on the big screen. Sounds nice, doesn’t it.
But, it is glaringly evident that you don’t have enough time for such niceties. You have places to go, talks and interviews to give and applause to hear. YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO BE A PASTOR!
So, instead you berate a member of your flock for having the temerity to question you in an impersonal manner. Did you ever think that the email was impersonal because you are impersonal with your flock? Do you really think that a person is a “zero” because he/she chose to email you anonymously? Matt, do you believe that Jesus would have called one of His lowly followers a ZERO? That emailer is a dearly beloved child of God who is struggling to figure out his church and his faith and you are too thin-skinned and too busy to give him the time of day.
Also, you may need to take a psychology course. Just like your good buddy, Mac Brunson, misused the term "sociopath" and demonstrated his ignorance via the newspaper (what a guy!) to the people of Jacksonville, it is obvious that you do not understand the meaning of narcissistic. A narcissist loves to see his name in lights. He is the type of guy who lives to hear the sound of applause and have people extolling the virtues of his name. In fact, he is the type of guy who is quite insulting to other people when his feeling are stomped on. This sort of guy is never anonymous. Perhaps you have met a couple of these in your travels?
Did you ever think that you may have created an atmosphere of intimidation because you don’t have the time to truly love and get to know members of your church? Could your frequent absences be perceived as a lack of concern and caring for those who are your primary ministry? Or are they your primary ministry?
As a formerly anonymous blogger, one of your pathetic zero types, could I give you a lesson in what is going on out here? There is a change in the church in America. We are truly in a post evangelical period. Far too many pastors spend time acting like CEOs rather than shepherds. The money is good out there for the ones who rise to the top and there is a pursuit of fame that is evident to us “little zeroes” out here.
Church success is measured in numbers and income. Pastoral success is quantitated by how many books and CD's get sold and how many conferences and speeches are booked. Meantime the "insignificant" people in the church are dying from creeping mediocrity.
Biblical illiteracy is on the increase, broken families are the new normal and children are leaving the faith in droves. Somehow, the mega church model has not resulted in deeper Christians. Instead it has produced shallow religionists with little idea of true discipleship. At the same time it seems as if the preachers are running faster and faster and getting nowhere fast.
Matt, there is a real possibility that you and the “leadership and authority” crowd have done nothing more that increase your own fame within your own circles. Does it ever bother you that people are asking the likes of John Piper to autograph the ESV Bible? What is that all about anyway?
I suggest that you try to figure out where you should be serving. Perhaps you should spend some time with those who love and care for you in your church. There are some “zeroes” that you need to get to know. Who knows, you may actually enjoy them.
Update with special thanks to Mirele who transcribed the words from the audio.
Now because I know some of you masculine, macho CEOs right now have something going through your mind, let me say this also: The Village Church runs between seven and eight thousand adults on a given weekend. There are 90 men and women on staff that are managed across three campuses. To use the shepherd/sheep analogy that’s in Scriptures, I don’t know how much you know about my job, but I’ll say it nicely like this: The shepherd rarely gets to play in the middle of all the healthy sheep when they’re having a barbeque and having a volleyball game. He’s on the fringes where the wolves and the sheep with rabies are. So a great deal of my week is spent walking through the tragedies, heartaches and sins of other men and women. On top of it all, constantly taking sniper-like shots from men and women who disagree with how we do things. Sometimes, to a level where it’s just crazy.
So two weeks ago, I sent out an email and said “Hey at Saturday nights at seven we’re going to try and utilize technology a little bit better so that we might have a dialogue. So after the sermon, you’ll be able to text any questions while I preach and I’ll answer them as soon as the sermon is over. Really, there are two motives behind this. One is to dialogue about what we’re talking about, because that’s healthy. Number two, I don’t want to lose touch with where you are. And so what happens on Saturday nights at seven is that I get to tweet my message going into Sunday morning. ‘Cause I’m going, I didn’t answer that question people—we thought it was really healthy.
I got this real hateful little spiteful e-mail this week that said, “This sounds like a last-ditch effort of a dying church to entice the next generation to come.” (Giggles) The reason I giggled is because in that e-mail I said, “Hey, we grew by 1500 last weekend.” So, do you see what I mean by crazy? And just because I have you, can I say this? We have not created a system here that hides from you. We’ll receive any bit of rebuke and any bit of critique. But you sign your name when you send stuff in, you immature weak little cowards. You sign your name, you silly, pathetic little boy. You don’t take jabs behind an alias. Who does that? So in any realm, we’re not above re[proach]. In any realm you can question, you can come in and have your questions answ[ered]. Don’t take jabs at us behind some alias where you sit in the crowd and do nothing, you narcissistic zero! Sign your name! I probably need to get some help. Let—I’ll work through that. (Laughter from congregation) I’ll work through that. I apologize.
I just read the email. Space sickness has nothing on this… 🙁
This guy gets a standing ovation.
He’s coming across more like a pastor than the “pastors”.
That’s a problem.
XianJaneway wrote:
@XianJaneway
What I do not understand in the least little bit is…which part of “I don’t choose to live with a criminal whose actions could put me in jeopardy of being arrested as an accessory” is difficult to comprehend!!?!
Nobody has a right to tell anyone to do that.
Here’s the way to get around a copyright infringement claim where it’s just a bare sermon with no commentary. Pull down the video and re-edit it to include copious and verbose commentary. Re-upload. Then, when the next copyright infringement comes through FIGHT IT under Fair Use. You will have to give up your personal information, but Fair Use, combined with a noisy presence on social media about how a PASTOR is trying to take down one of his SERMONS will usually win the day. They’ll embarrassedly withdraw their complaint.
mirele wrote:
That is precisely what Tom Rich is doing. That video was a commentary.
No, he means add it to the audio recording.
I’ve seen it done where screens with text commentary are put up at various points in the video. This is the kind of thing that cheeses me.
I’m holding back my commentary on the Karen Hinkley situation until you put up your next post, Deebs.
“So, why would they take time, in the midst of this crisis, to play “Let’s take down the video?””
So people can’t see the kind of “care” that they want to push Karen under.
Point 1: Chandler didn’t just call somebody “spiteful”, “pathetic” and a “narcissistic zero.” He voiced the words in a tone of heated anger. To me, he came across as being a spiteful, pathetic, narcissist. I am not saying Chandler is these things–only that this is how he comes across to me.
Point 2: Whoever it is that became the target of Chandler’s vitriol was, in retrospect, very well advised to speak anonymously. Chandler’s rant in and of itself seems quite retaliatory. How can the angry, vengeful, tone of the rant be explained if not on the basis of Chandler’s frustration at not being able to direct his rage specifically at the one who so wisely chose to remain anonymous?
ISTM that it is reasonable to assume that people who think like Driscoll would act like Driscoll. Also, people who mimic C.J. Mahaney’s preaching style like Matt Chandler and David Platt probably approve of C.J. Mahaney. I don’t know why Matt Chandler thinks he can teach people how to preach better when he is not a particularly good public speaker, IMO. However, he is cool and can draw a crowd, and that is very important if the point is to draw a crowd after yourself.
As for Karen not getting a note or call from Chandler, I think she is blessed not to have been contacted by any of them. They have a toxic view of women. Except their hot wives, of course.
@ Gary W:
Well said.
The video captures the mask slipping. Not good for the brand. Supports the counter-narrative that these guys are all about their own fame and not the fame of Jesus’ name, as they so oddly put it.
Gram3 wrote:
Yes. If they haven’t already, Karen’s story going public is going to put them into full damage-control mode. Public image will be of primary importance, hence the removal of the video.
I wrote something similar to this ( in general terms, not about Matt Chandler) a month or 2 ago. Never published it, but maybe I should have.
These “pastors” (I’m gonna call em ex-pastors, because they’re no longer actually filling that role for “their” flock) really do act like they have apostolic leadership.
What an amazing post. You hit the nail on the head with: “But, are you truly a pastor? When does the discipleship happen or is it done “on the fly?” You have precious little time to grow in intimacy with those who come to your local church because you are rarely around. Running in to do the Sunday sermon is not the same thing.”
I hope you touch on this issue more in the future. It’s a very real problem in mega-church land. These celebrity preachers are not actual shepherds. Robert Morris from Gateway Church demands 2 armed guards be with him at all times at church. Their real function is making sure the sheep can’t approach him in person. This way he never has to answer questions or minister to the sheep. He controls the narrative and he isn’t required to spend much more than the 34 minutes it takes for him to deliver one sermon less than 30 weeks a year.
Morris changes phone numbers regularly and last week admitted that even the head campus pastors don’t have his phone number. Imagine that?! They have to call or text Morris’ “pastor” sons to get a message to the senior pastor of the church who makes over a million a year. Considering 2 of his 3 homes are not in DFW, he is a hard man to reach, even for the other head pastors. He has said, from the pulpit, it makes him very angry that his pastors want to text him “Merry Christmas”. Can you imagine how he’d feel if a mere sheep wanted to do that? He also said he’d rather give “a large sum of money” to his staff than ten minutes, because he has way more money than time. The man does not even have an OFFICE at GW and hasn’t for at least the past ten years. Why is he even a pastor at all? Oh right, the money.
Dee, members need to see this for what it is. I know a number of people who attend TVC and based on their comments I think Matt Chandler loves God and loves people. However, as these celebrities insulate themselves from the populace it seems to set them up for this bizarre detachment from reality. I think what you write is very helpful in instructing people that they need a real, accessible shepherd that they can interact with. Not some talking head with the perfect hair. Sadly, many won’t figure this out until something bad happens. Then you find out you are just “the sheep with rabies” that they will have to put down. From a safe distance, of course.
Taking it from their perspective, it is hard for totalitarian regimes to manage information. First you want to silence potential critics by labeling them “pathetic” and “narcissistic zeros” and it works. But then when word goes beyond the intended audience, well it makes you look bad. How is a tyrant going to keep his image buffed up? It is really tough to be a bully and get universal applause.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
ISTM that it would display the true Gospel much better to leave the video up and post another one repenting of it. But that is not what the Gospel Glitterati do, is it? Can’t think of one instance of that ever happening.
mirele wrote:
That is how he did it.
Gary W wrote:
You nailed it. And this probably answers the question as to whether you would put yourself under the authority™ io such an individual?
Gram3 wrote:
Yet, he said he loved™ Karen.
XianJaneway wrote:
what email?
Bill M wrote:
Great point. The (nervous?) giggling of the audience at the end of his rant is very troubling as well. As if that’s what they think a pastor looks like.
Here’s another post I did…its an open letter to Karen Hinkley, and her situation at The Village Church.
I emailed this off to Matt Chandler, The Central Elders, Steve Hardin, Matt Younger, and the Dallas Northway Campus staff.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/25/an-open-letter-to-the-iron-lady-karen-hinkley-formerly-karen-root-of-the-village-church/
dee wrote:
Having experienced that kind of “love” personally is what makes me say she is blessed. Unfortunate as that is.
dee wrote:
I am resolved to never, ever, again enter into authority-based “Christian” fellowship. As between adult Christians, every relationship must be based on love, never authority.
Surely the Village Church is not naive enough to believe that something on the internet can be reeled back in. For those who desire to listen to the rant you can hear it here:
http://thouarttheman.org/2015/05/25/standing-by-to-hear-from-love/
I have updated the post at the end with the transcript from the audio (relevant part) which our dear reader Mirele transcribed. Thank you Mirele!
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Everyone should read this. Todd is your official TWW hero.However, we may add Karen and make Todd the official male hero and Karen the official female hero- cpmplementarian style, of course. 🙂
Just for kicks and giggles, and because I’ll not likely have time to write something new, I’ll repost a couple of old comments:
Dave A A on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 04:47 PM said:
Rob Davis. Appreciated your titanic deck chair post wondering if things will be better or different. I don’t really know much about Chandler, but it appears he’s no better than Driscoll at least in the church discipline area. This portion of his excerpt caught my attention: “You don’t let wolves play with the sheep. And if a guy says, “I know what the Bible says, but I don’t care,” we’re fine with that. He just has to not care somewhere else. If you want to sleep around with a woman who is not your wife and bring your girlfriend to church while your wife sits on the other side of church…”
He uses this example to explain why they “disinvited” a bunch of people. I wonder if anyone knows details– like– was there actually even ONE in their church doing something like this? Or were the “disinvited” folks asking too many questions?
I ask because this is the EXACT SAME example Driscoll uses in his book chapter on discipline. Who’d object to disciplining this uncaring adulterer, after all? It all seems so protective of innocent wives and kids.
IF people only knew how much their mega church pastor really despises them, they would be shocked. The mega pastors start to see the masses as albatrosses around their neck demanding this or that or daring to critisize them. They start to resent them privately and become even more isolated– except for the stage. They are “busy, busy, busy”. (But they always have time for the other gurus who promote their brand, books and conferences)
Yet, they really think the system works— if only the masses make no demands on their guru. They wanted the exalted position but not what comes with it. People who stay in these systems don’t mature.
And this:
Dave A A on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 08:00 PM said:
Seeker,
Thanks for the reply. I have also heard of examples like Chandler mentions, which have wrongly not been dealt with. I still am suspicious of how both preachers focus on this same “bring yer mistress t’ church” story,when surely even in the Bible Belt, MOST adulterers try to hide it. Another example I think really odd: I just read the whole thing here. http://www.thevillagechurch.net/media/sermons/transcripts/201010171700FMWC21ASAAA_MattChandler_UltimateAuthorityPt4-GuidingAndConfrontingTheMess.pdf
He’s talking about how elders should deal with 3 groups– Wolves, weaker brethren, and drifters from the theological or missiological way. He specifically says more than once that he knows there are wolves listening there at the village. But WHO at his church does he give as a example of wolves? The ONLY example in the sermon? Is it some Branch Davidians teaching Koresh worship? Is it followers of Ed Young sneaking his teachings into the small groups? Folks who read Wade Burleson’s blog? (Just kidding, Wade.) NO! The “wolves” are shallow guys from da big city who think the village girls are way cuter than the gals in the Dallas churches. So they go to church to “hunt” them. Their sinister intentions?– marriage and children! So they’re slyly trying to fool the innocent beautiful village girls into thinking they’re godly. Is this who Paul (or our Lord) had in mind as false prophets? If there are really so many young fellers like this in Matt’s (and Mark’s) churches– one wonders if it’s because that’s who the preachers are targeting.
End 3yo rant. Maybe these ideas about discipline and wolves have some bearing on the current mess.
Gary W wrote:
That is my take. Chandler’s response only proved why TVC members should go anonymous if they want to speak up about what is going on there.
Bill M wrote:
Exactly Bill! These celebu-pastors are surrounded by Kool-Aid drinkers (intended audience) who applaud and ooh and awww every utterance. Cult members, in general, are incapable of seeing the fallibility and later the absurdity of such behavior and statements. Enshrouded in their own cognitive dissonance they make allowances and excuses for the inexcusable. If they didn’t, they’d have to address their own culpability in this mess. It’s only when blogs like this hang the dirty laundry out in the sunlight where people outside the cult can see it, that it “looks bad.”
Having unwittingly lived La Vida Cult “for a season” I am hopeful that this episode may result in something very positive – which would be TVC covenant members considering very carefully what they have signed up for and are actively or passively supporting. Pedophilia is a form of paraphilia and is NOT curable. Asking Karen to stay and try to help a guy who will always be sexually stimulated by small children was wrong and harmful to her and potential future victims. The fact that Jordan concealed this all these years and sought positions of authority over small children demonstrates he has no desire to control this behavior. Having a “beard” of a loving supportive pastor’s wife is exactly what allowed Jordan to get so close to children. Parents view single men who want to work with their small children with more skepticism. Jordan married Karen to complete his ruse. I have seen this in person. It’s disgraceful. Had she stayed silent and stood by him in support – as possibly recommended by TVC – she would have been enabling potential atrocities. When Dee calls Karen a “hero” for upheaving her own life in order to protect children she doesn’t know, that is an understatement. Karen should be applauded not bullied!
@ Dave A A:
Dave, the first time I heard pew sitters, who dare disagree, called “wolves” by pastors was when I was reading Rick Warren’s pastors.com forum on transitioning the church back in 2005. It was eventually pass protected to keep non pastors out. It has become quite common for them to turn it around and claim the powerless non leaders are the wolves.
Matt Chandler’s voice and words were chilling, intimidating, and abusive in the clip on Alvin Reid’s website.
Chandler demeaned the anonymous critic of his texting idea calling him a “little boy.” Later Chandler stated he probably needs help and added he’d work through that. Chandler’s sincerity about knowing he needed help was made even less clear by the congregation’s laughing response. Finally Chandler apologized without sounding sincere.
How awful for Karen that Matt Chandler is publicly defending The Village Church while she is trying to heal from their spiritually abusive treatment.
Matt Chandler must be held accountable. He needs professional help, but sounds unlikely to seek it.
Gram3 wrote:
@Gram3 just have to say: Sick.Burn.
LT wrote:
But understand the guru/pastor is in groupthink, too. It often does not occur to them how bad this looks outside their bubble. They are just as indoctrinated as they indoctrinate their followers in most cases coming straight from seminary and that bubble world. And the longer they are isolated from thinking outside the box because of their fame, the worse it is. Think about how he allowed that rant to be on video in the first place. And he wants to spread his fame by putting video on the internet. It was normal to him. He really thought he was in the right. He had no reference for how that would look outside his bubble. But now we know who he really is behind the curtain. And often it takes outsiders to point it out to those in the groupthink.
Pushback on a grand scale is a very good thing in these situations. Instead of coming clean he and his people are in damage control mode. Turns out for many who might not have seen it, Chandler is more like Driscoll than they thought.
dee wrote:
I defer to Karen. What I have been through in no way compares to what she has endured.
mirele wrote:
Harvard University’s Digital Media Law Project has a lot of information on this topic: http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/protecting-yourself-against-copyright-claims-based-user-content
just wow. guess no priesthood of believers then, eh? No elder could ever need to be held accountable by a layperson then, right? SMH The funny thing is, what Chandler did by calling the person a “narc. zero” reveals the tactic of abusers in that they attack first to protect their own image. How very narcissistic of them.
@ Dave A A:
You are a prophet. For a small love offering, we will send you a certificate that you are a certified prophet of Church.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
I am in authority over you on this blog. Once you have been made an official hero, you are always an official hero.
Lydia wrote:
Or– powerless narcissistic zeros!
@ To the Dogs:
I think he wanted this one to go away. However, when he started playing “hide the video” I made sure it would continue to stay in the light. I am happy this happened because it is helping our case. Would you sign a so-called covenant™ that put him in authority™ over you? Rhetorical snort!
Church denominations I’ve joined in my 22 years as a Christian:
Southern Baptist
Christian (not disciples of Christ, just plain Christian)
Great Commission Churches
Christian & Missionary Alliance
Thanks to Facebook, I now know that people–including child care workers and youth workers— in *every* single church I’ve been a part of would not call the cops about a sexual offense against a child that was
1) a long time ago,
2) before the person came to Christ
3) when the offender was a juvenile.
4) when they personally think the offender wouldn’t offend again, even if they’ve had no formal training in child sex abuse cases.
Please, don’t ever, ever believe that people are leaving the institutional church because they lose love for JESUS. They are likely terrified of the repercussions of the naiveté of the church.
LT wrote:
Thank you for this comment. But, didn’t you know, they hold the authority keys and Jordan is obviously cured due to their “walk of repentance” system.
LT wrote:
Well darn! You are stealing my thunder for the second post!
Lydia wrote:
Darn straight! If he does this in public, can you imagine what he does in private?
I listened to the audio, gag. He starts by setting himself up as the victim, I feel so sorry for this guy, he has such a hard time dealing with the difficulties wielding all the power he has taken unto himself. He never gets to play with the rest of the sheep, oh the humanity, oh the suffering.
I notice he uses a soft voice until the spite comes out. Tyrants don’t always use angry rants, in this case he sounds so nice until the end, but that appears to be the point, to draw you in and share his hate. Speaking of, this exercise sounds like Orwell’s 2 minutes of hate from “1984”, with a little trimming I’m sure we can get the clip down to just 2 minutes. Maybe we can send someone in à la the Apple 1984 commercial and fling the hammer.
He also use the phrase I would kindly like to add to the list from a prior thread of things not in the bible,
106 “to dialog”
How about just listening?
So, this is not so much germane (is that correct spelling? Always looks weird to me) the subject of sex abuse, protection and cover ups for abusers.
I feel they take that very seriously at my church- everyone is background checked, but furthermore, there are always multiple people working with the kids, with a “desk person” overseeing the classroom and windows to each room so that can be seen. If a married couple is watching the kids, there is always a third person unrelated to them as well.
Similar to how childcare is set up for people with kids during small group nights. But I think discussion of what more can be done is important.
Anyway, on to the unrelated note. My pastors, who I love, though don’t always agree with. Are- I won’t say followers of these men, but do read/quote a lot of Chandler, Piper, Driscoll, etc..among other teachers, and that has bothered me for some time.
We are now part of the Acts29 network as well. Which, lead pastor says is to help with support and encouragement of tr pastors, as well as a “well” of resources.
I can understand that- last year was a rough year for our city with a lot of impact in our church.
However…I am concerned. I dont want our church to grow into…all of that mess. I feel like the pastors are intelligent and wise, and generally approachable. But, I am worried.
I can’t quite figure outhow to articulate those questions or concerns to them, though.
Thankful for this blog and commenters, though, for your perspectives.
I read that and if what TVC says about SIM is true then Karen would do well to get away from an organization that requires her to go against her God-given conscience. You cannot reconcile with cult. There is no Scriptural mandate for holding church members against their will, and there is no Biblical reason to involve elders in what is a procedure of informing authorities, retaining legal protection, and expecting church support. That the elders were prepared to control rather than love is an indictment on our culture.
XianJaneway wrote:
Thank you. It is frightening.
@ XianJaneway:
Mandy wrote:
Your statement evokes so many conflicting thoughts and emotions in me. The issue has spawned enormous amounts of words in print and on the internet. The fact that you are here represents you also have the ability to make intelligent and wise decisions. Keep watch.
Mandy,
You are wise to be concerned about who your pastors are patterning themselves after and following.
@ Melody:
I came to the conclusion based upon my experiences behind the curtain that it is what people don’t know that has gone on that should scare them. So much is hidden, damaged controlled, etc. That when something makes it to the light of day on the internet, you can probably bet is it actually much worse.
Keep in mind, most TVC pewsitters would not know one thing about Karen and her situation if she had gone along and kept her mouth shut. That is what makes her so very brave. And guess what? Most people do go along in these situations with the leaders. It is what you don’t know is happening is the real scary part. Of course they do lots of “prevention” work now. Insurance companies demand it.
@ Linda:
This next comment is not referring to you- Linda. It is another Linda.
Well, I wasn’t aware the video had commentary in it. So we’re already past the stage of re-editing. What FBCJaxWatchdog needs to do now is to follow the appeal steps set out by Vimeo. This will require him to give out his name and personal information, but Tom is a known quantity and not a “narcissistic zero.”
This morning I transcribed two audios of about the same length. One was a conversation between three people about a legal decision handed down last week in the Kent Hovind case. The other was the Matt Chandler video. I thought you might like to know in the first audio, I was babbling on about why the judge overturned Kent’s conviction back in March for criminal contempt of court. (It was technical, legal.) That was 322 words. Matt Chandler’s slightly shorter clip (2 minutes, 50 seconds) came in at 475 words. That’s 167 words a minute. The guy speaks so fast.
LT wrote:
Oh I wish it were true. Sigh
dee wrote:
I’ll file it right next to my aPostle certificate, and my pAstor certificate from a few years back!
This guy said: “But you sign your name when you send stuff in, you immature weak little cowards. You sign your name, you silly, pathetic little boy. You don’t take jabs behind an alias. Who does that? So in any realm, we’re not above re[proach]. In any realm you can question, you can come in and have your questions answ[ered]. Don’t take jabs at us behind some alias where you sit in the crowd and do nothing, you narcissistic zero! Sign your name! I probably need to get some help.”
I learned in dealing with my ex-husband, who has many narcissistic traits, that these people will occasionally throw in something true. Like, “I probably need to get some help.”
I also learned that projection is common. When my ex accused me of having an affair, it meant that he was having one. When he accusing me of being a terrible parent, it was because he was a terrible parent and felt guilty about it.
When I read and listen to this vile “pastor’s” rant against his accuser, I see that he thinks of himself as an “…immature weak little coward…silly, pathetic little boy…narcissistic zero!” Yep. That’s about right.
The sad thing is, these guys think they are above Jesus, who was gentle and humble of heart, offering rest. What is terrible is they don’t seem to know the Scriptures about how to deal graciously with opposition. And in fact, those who oppose the Truth of God’s good news of Christ were to be gently instructed, not screamed at in a narcissistic rage. It’s not about the preacher’s or our feelings in a disagreement but about whether or not the issue is one of Truth that needs to be set straight in love. The Church is also told in Scripture they don’t need to put up with anyone who slaps them around etc. This authority movement is evil because all authority belongs to Jesus and Christians are one in Him, mutually submissive, known by love. The authority is not and never in the elders but in the Truth of God’s Word.
When blogging first became big in certain circles, pastors would shut down anyone who was posting anonymously. It was a huge deal to be anonymous to them. I always found this odd but eventually understood why. They deal with dissenters. Doug Wilson would even demand not only your personal contact information but also the name of your pastor and “his” number. That always cracked me up. I would not even want these types to have my ISP.
Other type pastor blogs would make it a “coward” thing to be anonymous. It started to sound like bully boys on the playground. But the truth is they have very thin skins and they want to nip the disagreement in the bud. By knowing the name of the person it means the response almost always leans toward the ad homenim. As in “who are YOU to critisize me”. I saw it over and over through the years of blogging.
I came to see most pastors as little boys who never really had to live in the big grown up world where we are critisized every day for this or that.
Indeed. And what upsets me from my perspective as growing up in ministry circles…and with some knowledge of mission boards…is that mission organizations and churches may have great policies but they may not be much better than churches at handling things we as Christians should bring to the light and deal openly with. When you know as much as some of us know, it makes you fearful of ever exposing your kids or yourselves in depth to Christian organizations because there is always potential for abuse of some kind. That should not be the case, but it is.
@ Lydia:
Correction
Melody wrote:
dee wrote:
I am so sorry! If it helps, I don’t think you can drive the “beard” point home enough. Having been close to a similar case I know a lot about this form of misdirection. Sometimes the wives are genuinely fooled. Other times they sit by silently in exchange for comfortable lives. That’s why I think Karen is so heroic. Opening this part of her life up to scrutiny has to be almost as devastating as finding out she married a secret pedophile. The shame and humiliation of announcing this is far more than most people could bear. Karen’s selflessness not only allows victims to come forward and receive help, but it also helps protects potential future victims by announcing to the world who and what Jordan Root is. I think it’s the only way at this point to keep this pastor, therapist and daycare worker away from positions of control over his target population of very young girls. She is also helping to shed light on these membership covenants that serve as legal protection to beat sheep into submission and silence. I pray that her pain will be used to help many others and to encourage others to speak out on these injustices.
.
Lydia was right on the guru group think. The insulated head pastors do start buying into their own dogma and acting as though they cannot be held accountable for abhorrent words and actions. What happens on this case will affect how other churches deal with such issues in the future. As President of the Acts 29 Network, Matt Chandler personally influences those 500 churches. We all make mistakes. Right now Matt has an enormous opportunity before him to model humility, accountability and repentance.
I think it may be possible, that when this began, he (or those delegated to handle this) didn’t fully understand that Jordan will never stop being aroused by little girls and that their program of restoration was a dangerous one. Jordan only chose occupations that involved him being in a trusted position of authority over children. That is the hallmark of a true wolf. No matter what TVC does or says, a true wolf cannot be transmogrified into a sheep. To use that awful mega church phrase, “it’s all about their DNA”. By now I think they do know these things. I sincerely pray Chandler will use this awful situation to take a zero tolerance position on keeping known wolves inside their sheep pen and also to reconsider this covenant deal. I can’t describe how strongly I would support him if he did this. I think others would too.
Sorry about the thunder stealing. It is a massive storm! I reckon there will be many more lightning bolts to come.
Eagle wrote:
I just read this over at your blog. Good job, Eagle! And what a great song to close it with for Karen. It made me cry.
Exactly my thoughts. I believe the culture likely already existed where people felt disgruntled and unheard and the rant just confirms it. I see that as bullying from a position of power, much like Joe Carter has done to a few of us when we express our opinions on how TGC has treated us and others publicly. There are people with platforms who hate being called out publicly, and I can’t imagine, being an ordinary person without a platform, talking to any of these guys privately and feeling safe and respected. I would absolutely expect, based on their public behavior, to be threatened or at least told to shut up.
@ Gary W:
Mandy wrote:
No one can tell you what is best in your situation, but I’m going to do that anyway. When Chandler dumped Driscoll, it was a PR move. Nothing more. Chandler is Driscoll, and Acts29 is founded on the theology of Wayne Grudem and others. It is a theology of power, not a theology of love. No matter how much they talk about “loving you well.” You are there to augment their power.
You are a pewpeon, and you will always be a pewpeon. What is worse, you are a female pewpeon and they will readily dismiss you as rebellious if it comes to that. They will make a show of listening to your concerns, but do not fall for it. I say that because I found that out the hard way. Ask yourself if this clip from Chandler sounds anything like Jesus. Now, ask yourself if you want to entrust yourself in any way to “pastors” who admire Driscoll and the other Usual Suspects. Think about the “reasons” they gave you for partnering with Acts29. If they are pastors, why do they need a “well of resources?” They should be able to teach from the Bible. If they can’t without being spoonfed by Driscoll, then they are unqualified to be teachers according to the Bible.
@ Gram3:
“They will make a show of listening to your concerns, but do not fall for it. I say that because I found that out the hard way.”
I was not a covenant member at the Acts 29 church we left, but I would say that this is an accurate statement to my experience.
@ Elizabeth Lee:
That sounds right to me. When I heard it, I wondered why this is something Chandler thought he needed to address. Why not just ignore it? It seems to me to be preemptive and fake. The whole pity party intro was just weird. And the fake giggle. And the fake “I need to get some help” which seemed to me to be a means of dismissing the thoughts that some people might rightly be having about his behavior.
I do believe the I need help has exactly the effect you mention. The whole thing is manipulative and it is definitely not an issue that needs to be shared except to warm people against communicating anything negative.
If you can’t handle the heat…
@ Gram3:
Oops *warn not warm. Funny pun tho I guess.
Melody wrote:
@ Michaela:
Wait until you see my letter to Matt Younger! :-p
dee wrote:
I’m happy he decided to play “hide the video,” too. I almost always skip watching videos, but I enjoy listening to audio recordings. Seems God makes room for unintended consequences.
Not only would I not sign a membership covenant™ putting me under Matt Chandler’s authority,™ I would disavow any I had signed. These contracts are so loosely constructed nobody should ever sign one.
Hopefully a hungry law school graduate will soon begin setting up shop Sunday mornings across the street from churches that inflict such covenants on unwary sheep. Merely twenty-five bucks to hear the answer to “What could possibly go wrong?”
To be a contrarian….I think there is a difference between anonymously pointing out a problem that you are unsure how people will respond…vs..anonymously being a jerk. What Chandler says in his response regarding the email he received is that the anonymous writer wasn’t saying, “I think this is a bad idea”, but instead mocked Chandler and TVC. If you love your church it should make you angry when people unfairly and without justification mock and ridicule it.
This doesn’t justify losing your temper. But even the best of people lose their temper when attacked by jerks. I remember years ago having a conversation with a spiritual mentor where I complained about something he was/wasn’t doing. I was ungracious and unfair and, later realized, completely off base. He was hurt and angry with me and “yelled”. My initial response was to be indignant and angry in return. Later, when I cooled off, I had an epiphany and realized how hurtful I had been to someone who had invested a lot into me. In my youthful over confidence and self-rigtheousness I thought I realllly knew what was going on and acted completely unfairly. Long story short, I apologized and today we are still close.
I am an “unscripted” preacher and often find myself utilizing thoughts/illustrations mid sermon that I had not originally planned on. Now, I have never said anything I regret later(though i have preached a lot less than Chandler) but I can see someone going farther down a path than they intended and in this specific case getting angry about it in the moment and speaking more stridently than is wise. But I can totally empathize with it. You are talking about transparency, start to talk about a mean email that only existed to mock you, and you get fired up.
This is unrelated to the covenant issue. I haven’t yet thought enough on it to have any coherent thoughts.
To the Dogs wrote:
Thankfully for the unwary, The Wartburg Watch can give the answers for FREE about what could possibly go wrong when you sign a Hostage – I mean “Membership” – Covenant.
I don’t know so much that they are modeling themselves after these men.
I can’t always listen to them (not the pastors, the other guys) for very long so I can’t say how much effect it has had with any certainty.
I know they read a lot from a lot of different sources. They definitely have a YRR bend, though. However, they have been open to a lot of questioning and discussion on my part related to various other issues, and i have never felt shut down.
Definitely there are things I don’t agree with. But what church isn’t going to have some of that?
What issues are enough to say, “I’m out!”?
With stuff like what’s happening/happened at TVC, SGM, it seems so obvious (though I recognize obvious does not mean easy. I applaud Karen…I can’t even imagine how much strength that would take.)
For Gram3.
I thought you might be interested in this page, which is long. It starts out slow, but gets more interesting as it goes on. The discussions at the bottom were also interesting.
Reflections of a New Defense of ‘Complementarianism’
http://steverholmes.org.uk/blog/?p=7507
Whoops, just saw your response, Gram3.
You pretty much already answered my points about feeling heard, etc…
I guess it’s something to test out. I’ve never really “rocked the boat” over there, I definitely want to inquire about these things.
Well now is as good a time as any to remove my anonymity. I have been posting under the name “Mandy” for a couple years to remain anonymous. There is now someone else here of that name and quite frankly I don’t want to remain anonymous anymore. As you guys know I started at Texas A&M about 10 years ago to earn my degree. Matt Chandler used to lead Breakaway, an on-campus worship service on Tuesday nights. By the time I arrived on campus he was just an occasional speaker as he had moved on to his own church. I remember that he had already earned “celebrity” status with the students but for the life of me I don’t know why. He is extremely charismatic and personable. I never fell into the “Matt Chandler Worship” contingent. If I felt like going to Breakaway, great, but by golly I had Latin class bright and early on Wednesday morning too. There was always a gut check in me that said that he was not to be trusted and to this day I can’t tell you why. How did Matt go from a college worship speaker to the Matt of today? I wish I knew so that we could help others avoid the same path.
Gram3 wrote:
Great opening. I like your highlight on: why do they need a “well of resources?”
In this day you can easily get buried under resources, if you are talking about curriculum or printed materials. If you are talking about resources of the enforcement type, well then we are talking about something else.
Mandy wrote:
said matt chandler
hanging there with his bff other wolves?
that last wasnt a quote of mandys sorry, i got in the box again
TVC is just one more example of the growth of Maoist ‘Christianity’. Led by Chairman Chandler, they want to insinuate themselves into every aspect of their “covenant member’s” lives and they twist and pervert Scripture to create a ‘Gospel’ of oppression and attempt to make it sound ‘Biblical’. There really isn’t much difference between how these churches operate and how the Chinese Communist Party dictated the daily lives of its members. I wonder if Matt Chandler publishes his sermons in a Little Red Book for “covenant members” to carry in their pocket.
On another note, I think one other reason these guys have such thin skin is that they have little, if any, formal seminary training, which leaves them free to pull various Bible verses out of context and put them together to create really stupid doctrines. When they’re called on it, they don’t have any intellectual basis to back it up so their only defense is to lash out at their critics. Chandler basically said he ‘didn’t need no stinkin’ seminary’, he already knew it all.
Mandy wrote:
to become a member of Acts 29 your pastor has to undergo alot of acts 29 training seminars and have continual training by acts 29, i would think that shortly you (if you dont already) will be required to sign membership covenants, which are binding legal documents
Oh I am really sorry! I did that once before here too. I was thinking big was another Amanda not Mandy…totally did not mean to steal your SN. @ Christy, formerly known as Mandy:
*it not big
sam wrote:
So the “resources” are re-education camps alluded to by JeffT?
sam wrote:
You would be right, to be a member, there is a class and something to sign. Apparently, the church was a member of the network at one time, then left, and just recently joined again.
So, before I knew anything about any of “The Usual Suspects” or…well, much of anything. I joined the church, so signed the covenant. This was…just before finishing school so some years now. Felt good at the time.
They somewhat recently had a meeting where covenant members were asked to sign again. I did not attend this, and have not done so…but am still on covenant member lists, so I don’t really know where I stand on that.
So resources mentioned- he stated as being able to reach out for advice from other pastors, church planters, and maybe receive encouragement.
There have been a lot, lot, of racial tensions in this city for quite a long time. If you’ve seen the news in the last few months, you’ve seen our city, and how that came to a head.
Well in our church this has been happening in microcosm- and there was a lot of confusion about the best way to address everything.
From the tone of the email, I got the sense that was a lot of what pushed him to go back. Not all, but a large part.
Dee,
I'm glad you reposted (ed.) the Narcissistic Zero post. I had forgotten that we revealed our identities just after it was published (2010).
I just took a glance at the Google reviews for The Village Church, and as you might imagine, almost all are positive. One person with the moniker 'Concerned Christian' shared some concerns about Matt Chandler about a year ago.
Then in the last week someone came on and lambasted Concerned Christian' for not signing his/her name. Funny thing, that individual — as far as I can tell — failed to identify himself (pretty sure it was a guy mimicking his leader).
What a thin-skinned bunch at TVC! How in the world do they respond when those who don't know Christ criticize them?
Should be REPOSTED. IPhone issues …
Melody wrote:
Seminary Snowflakes don’t do heat.
Bill M wrote:
The resources are affectionately called propaganda in other contexts. Someone who has graduated seminary should be able to put together a SS lesson or a sermon without Mark Driscoll telling them what to think. Or Tim Keller. Or John Piper. Or Mark Dever. Or even WayneGrudemGoWayneGrudem.
‘He’s on the fringes where the wolves and the sheep with rabies are’: I’m afraid this made me laugh, & now I know thanks to the wonder of Google that sheep rarely get rabies.
JeffT wrote:
We need to keep the big picture in mind. There is a division of “labor” between the theolgians with doctorates like WayneGrudemGoWayneGrudem BruceDerivativeImageWare or 9MarksDever and the power brokers like R. Albert Mohler and Tim Keller and the attractive and cool young people who draw the crowds. The cool young guys do not need to know anything because the others tell them what to think and what to tell their pewpeons to think. Everyone does their task, or performs their Roles, and everyone profits.
WayneGrudemGoWayneGrudem is exhibit A of confusion between being educated and being able to reason well. He is not a stupid man. He is not an uneducated man. He is, however, a man who is obsessed with Authority. He did not come out of nowhere with the ideas in his ST. He and Piper have been working on this for years, and their paraBibles RBMW and Grudem’s ST are the real Bibles to them.
Bill M wrote:
Yes. The party line and the talking points are all they know. They have not been taught to think but rather what to think. When you quiz them on any of the ridiculous things, they lash out or go silent. Because they don’t know how to show their work.
Beakerj wrote:
Chandler went to A&M, and I guess they just don’t make Aggies like they used to.
Bill M wrote:
to become an acts 29 church it starts with boot camp, then a whole bunch of re classes, reboot, retrain, re-man-up, re-doctrinate, etc. driscoll started the re thing, re-marriage, re-bible etc.
acts 29 membership as a church
http://www.acts29network.org/plant-churches/
“This starts with our rigorous application and assessment processes (described below). Upon an approved assessment, planters are supported through coaching, training, and resourcing within the context of the Network. This includes access to our online communication forum to ask questions, share prayer requests, and grow in leadership as well as actively participating in the regional meetings, training, and events.
https://application.acts29.com/courses/5/registrations/new
Please note the following before applying:
1) REVIEW FAQ:
Please carefully review the Acts 29 FAQ, paying particular attention to the “Application Process” section.
2) REVIEW DOCTRINAL STATEMENT:
Please carefully review and be in agreement with the Acts 29 Doctrinal Statement. Also, listen to Mark Driscoll’s Mission & Vision of Acts 29 Network and Four Points of the Movement to understand more fully the distinctives and mission of Acts 29 Network.
3) REVIEW APPLICATION PROCESS:
Reference the Application Process page to know the tasks that are required to complete the application process. Please note that you will need to devote a considerable amount of time to finish the application process and that Phase 1 must be completed one month prior to the boot camp at which you plan to attend and be assessed.
http://www.acts29network.org/resources/?page=1
It is vital that every one of God’s servants, particularly those who labor in preaching and teaching, have a good library and time to study both the Scriptures and other worthy literature. Browse through all the free blogs, church planter profiles, articles, and sermons that Acts 29 has to offer.
if you click on ‘speaker’ it will give you all the friends and mentors of matt chandler and acts 29. mark driscoll was scrubbed off when they got rid of him, mark dever, piper, ed stezer, grudem jr&sr, cj mahaney,
Daisy wrote:
I saw that on Scot McKnight’s blog and read the review article. It is a very good analysis of the state of desperation in which the Eternal Subordinationists find themselves. I think that Holmes is right and they will have to pry Complementarianism out of Grudem’s cold dead hands. It is his idol and his life’s work. It must be difficult for him to see it debunked so soundly.
Gram3 wrote:
When I googled some of the phrases and subjects from the Sunday messages of a former church pastor, I found a lot of recycling of favorite sources. These guys can definitely feed at the same trough if not guilty of downright plagiarism.
There are times I’ve repeated something as my own when I’d forgotten its origins but that is not an excuse to go to “resources” to develop all the messages you are paid to develop on your own. We are frustrated by the lack of independent thinking by those sitting in the pews (chairs?), what about the lack of critical thinking coming from the platform.
Beakerj wrote:
ah but sometimes when they are earnestly contending for the faith they might get zealous and refuse to deny the truth, which puts certain ‘leaders’ in fear and into “defame the faithful mode.”
Beakerj wrote:
It is easy to get confused when the wolves are disguised in among the sheep.
Gram3 wrote:
Except that Christy, f/k/a Mandy also identifies herself as an A&M alum (today 4:53 PM). And a Latin scholar to boot.
LT wrote:
Ron Burgandy with a Bible.
“You have bad hair. Your hair looks stupid”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAc_AM5UOjU
(I would note too that Ron Burgandy’s attitude towards women in that video clip is similar to that of some Christian gender complementarian churches today.)
@ Gary W:
I was being totally tongue-in-cheek. Everyone knows that Aggies tell the best Aggie jokes. Frankly, if I didn’t know better, I would have assumed he graduated from UT. But that is way OT. 🙂
LT wrote:
I quoted something from a few sources over at Julie Anne’s blog a few months back I found, where research shows that there are more married pedophiles than single ones, or a higher percentage. I don’t remember the exact figures.
But it seems the married ones use their marriage precisely to cover up their activity, so that nobody will suspect them.
Some of the married guys who are pedophiles have biological children of their own, but out of these, some only molest other people’s kids (this information was also in the same content I read). Some do molest their own kids, though, that does happen, too.
Off topic, but related to the day, we visited my father’s grave this afternoon. On the way back to the car we noticed a tombstone of a different shape. On reading the name, noting the dates 1898-1919, and the flag posted nearby, I reasoned it was for a young man who died in the “war to end all wars”.
Reflecting briefly on the loss of the family, one I now understand much better being a parent, all of them have now passed, but their loss must have been great. In a world of much suffering, to use futuristguy’s words, it is better to be an agent of healing than an agent of damage.
Adam Borsay wrote:
There is nothing unscripted about The Village, or Acts29 or the others. It is all scripted and planned to generate a response. Chandler could have merely ignored the email. People in business have to deal with jerks all day long and still maintain some civility. And those encounters are almost never scripted. This tirade by Chandler bears the mark of intimidation.
Mandy wrote:
A couple of things. They are coached to appear open, and many times that is their way of finding out what you are thinking. They love to provide opportunities for “feedback” but they don’t mean that in the same way that I mean it. They are not interested in conversation because conversation occurs between equals. Direction of everyone else is what interests them. When they talk about “discipleship” they are not talking about being discipled as a Christ follower. They are talking about being discipled to be their follower.
I would be very surprised to find that your pastors read from a variety of sources, or at least that they read different sources with a variety of perspectives in mind. I can read lots of different things, but if my interpretive grid is made of rebar, I won’t profit from the variety in my reading. It is important for your own welfare to remember that the Acts29 model is a colonization model. It is basically a parasitic movement when you look at it closely. The same is true of some 9Marks churches. They have an ideology and other people have assets and cashflows.
@ Gram3:
Ah, that explains it. Thanks.
LT wrote:
Village Church supporters on social media are very, very, very ignorant about this, or they choose not to believe it.
Some of the Village Church supporters I saw on social media think that because Root repented, or is a Christian, that Karen should have stayed with Root longer, should not have left him, and some of them seem to believe that Jesus instantly removes attraction to kids from repentant molesters.
If I had children, I would not let them within 50 miles of that church or any of its members.
Adam Borsay wrote:
I guess I cannot grasp the idea of that level of devotion to a local brick and mortar building, or necessarily the people who gather there every week. Sometimes churches, IMO, open themselves up to, or even deserve to be, mocked and ridiculed.
About the anon’s comments. Chandler dragging media into it – asking people to Tweet him questions after a sermon – does seem to be an attempt to appear cool and relevant in this age of social media… which is somewhat lame.
Not that I’m against church people using social media, but to some, it’s just another marketing gimmick to appear relevant, or to appear cool to Millennials. And that is ridicule-worthy.
I didn’t get a chance to see the video. When Chandler was delivering this screed, was he wearing hipster skinny jeans, glasses, tattoos, and a goatee too?
Gram3 wrote:
You’re right about that for most of them. Let the Grudem’s, the Ware’s, Dever’s, et.al. do all the Bible-twisting dirty work – leaves more time to work on the hair.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Sorry Adam. Chandler is paid big bucks to be the spiritual guru. It was not a leadership moment. it was an angry little boy moment.
why would he use the same type of ridicule response if he is the more mature?
@ Daisy:
P.S. Another thing I find annoying: how preachers jump on trends or copy each other.
I have seen Greg Laurie (mega church preacher) use tech in sermons. He once used his cell phone during a sermon to make points. He compared asking Siri questions to prayer or something or other.
Steve Furtick did a sermon called “Death To Selfie,” and a few weeks ago, he had his staff hook his cell phone up to large monitors on his stage to make a point about whatever.
I’ve seen one or two other preachers use a cell phone, or Twitter, as a jumping off point to use as illustrations about the Bible or Jesus.
Once one preacher does this sort of thing, the rest start doing it, like a bunch of lemmings.
Because Preacher #1 used a cell phone during a sermon, now Preacher #2 thinks, “Hey that is a cool idea, I will try it too,” then Preacher 3, 4, etc.
When I’m feeling sarcastic I will tell you that when they get that kind of critique they cry…persecution.
@ Deb:
I just wonder what dear Steve Hassan at cult expert on Twitter (author of Combatting Cult Mind Control) thinks of all this. Or Jeff VanVonderen. Etc.
Gram3 wrote:
No space here for fuller context, but perhaps it is no mere coincidence that, in addressing the question how a prince might retain a newly acquired province, Machiavelli says, “Another excellent expedient is to send colonies into one or two places, so that these may become, as it were, the keys of the Province;” Machiavelli, Niccolò (2012-04-27). The Prince (Dover Thrift Editions) (p. 4). Dover Publications. Kindle Edition.
At present I am testing the hypothesis that one of the best ways to gain an understanding of these high-controlling pastors’ methods is to read the likes of Machiavelli. Next up on my reading list, Nietzsche’s “Will to Power.”
JeffT wrote:
“Dr. Frankenstein’s School of Hermeneutics” ? 🙂
At least it’s not Mein Kampf…oh boy. I’m really sarcastic right now. I have in fact had a very bad weekend over this-it is a case of if you don’t laugh…
@ Gary W:
As long as these “Mega church” leaders want to travel the world and claim to represent “Evangelical Christianity”, they are public figures and we should all be holding them accountable. THEY ARE NOT “SPECIALLY ANOINTED” Further, ALL of details of how TVC treats Jordan Root, his former wife, and whether their is any cover-up IS ALL of our business. These leaders can not have it both ways… Further, the teachings of JC clearly value the “little ones”… It is incomprehensible that the ELDERS of TVC would not investigate to make sure children were not molested!!! They just “believe” the self professed pediiphile????
Mandy wrote:
Just as a general warning, mega churches are really big about saying their children’s workers are all background checked. There are 2 GIANT reasons to not trust that church background checks will keep your kids safe.
1) Most predators do not have a criminal record. They will “pass” a background check. This is because they either
A. Haven’t gotten caught/reported at all
B. Talked the victim out of telling parents or church authorities
C. Talked church authorities out of calling the police
D. Got a lawyer to work out a plea bargain w/o a felony record
E. Happened before they were 18 and juvenile records are sealed
F. Happened in another state and not on Sex Offender Registry
2) Some churches will hire convicted felons (or even prefer them) due their “testimony” that their lives were a wreck until Jesus saved them. They believe that a gangsta guy will be a sought after speaker and more unsaved kids will come to youth group so they can brag about featuring such an “edgy” and “real” guy holding the mic (not just another boring hipster type).
There is no shortage of youth pastors without criminal records. Readers, please do not drop your guard because your church claims to do background checks. Jordan Root passed that same check and TVC is working hard to keep him at the church (although to their credit not in children’s ministry at this time). Predators pursue churches as their hunting grounds of choice because they do show this reckless disregard for children’s safety, all in the name of “grace”. I’d prefer to see a little more grace directed towards the most vulnerable of the flock. Readers, please watch your children!
JeffT wrote:
That’s a slight take on Driscoll’s approach, which was, if I recall correctly,
‘I know it all, therefore you stupid heads don’t need to learn koine Greek or ancient Hebrew!’
Mark Driscoll: Only Rebel Christians Do Word Studies. So, Rebel!
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/05/06/mark-driscoll-only-rebel-christians-do-word-studies/
On a serious note then I’ll shut up for now-I guess my biggest frustration with these institutions is the total hard heartlessness. Things the world acknowledges as evil such as controlling behavior, bullying, sexual abuse, etc are being swept under the carpet by the church by people who are sensitive about their brand being questioned yet rage against anyone who speaks truth to situations. The Church should be in mourning over the pride of so many who call themselves pastors but they tend to target the people who are hurting and make them out as the sinners! It makes no sense. Broken record issue I know, but how can any of these guys think they know Jesus if they don’t honestly love people? We are to love in actions not just claim to with our words. I think the Chirch has substituted intellectual assent instead of living breathing fruits of the Spirit which show themselves in how we treat each other. I don’t feel fed anymore is s real thing-the teachings aren’t affecting my heart. We are so far from God in this nation and it isn’t about our politics but our hearts. It hurts to see. So yes, I have been crying, but not because my idols are broken. I think we can’t help but grieve when God’s people are being hurt by those who claim to be His.
Bill M wrote:
I was just talking about how some preachers abuse trends or copy each other.
I’m not totally sure who first said it, but one of the first people I heard use this was Tullian Tchividjian, and it was probably a year to year and a half ago I heard this, on some show on TBN (maybe on his own show).
I’m not sure I’m getting the quote right, but it’s something like, “Jesus didn’t come to make bad people good, he came to bring dead people to life.”
Within a week of that, every other preacher or talking head on TBN was using that same statement (I heard it used about twice two weeks ago by different Christians on TBN on different shows), and it would get wild applause.
@ Gary W:
Hey, even A&M makes mistakes some times. Remember Ricky Perry and Louie Gohmert?
Beverly Bailey, Class of 78
“…to … utilize technology a little bit better so that we might have a dialogue. … that’s healthy. … I don’t want to lose touch … with where you are. … we thought it was really healthy.”
Utilize… technology… dialogue… healthy… really healthy.
This sounds like a line from Demolition Man.
Mommy, how did you and Daddy meet? — Sweetie, we utilized technology to have a dialogue.
Mommy, did you kiss Daddy? — Honey, we utilized technology to have a dialogue. It’s healthy.
Mommy, where did I come from? — Oh baby, we utilized technology to have a dialogue. It’s really healthy.
Forget about shaking hands, or looking into your brother’s or sister’s eyes, sharing a meal, or drinking from the same cup. Or laying on of hands, or anointing with oil. Or greeting each other with a holy kiss. We utilize technology to have a dialogue. It’s healthy. Really healthy.
Mommy, why’s that man staring at us? — He thinks we’re rapid sheep.
What does he do with rabid sheep, Mommy?… — Hmm.
@ Adam Borsay:
The grace you are asking for towards Chandler’s words, in a prepared message given to thousands, is the grace that was missing from Chandler when he received an email sent just to him.
Daisy wrote:
I would argue that devotion to your local community is a good thing(generally speaking) and as a pastor I know what it feels like to pour yourself into the people and ministries of the church. When you are doing so it can be very frustrating to get anonymous pot shots that tear down you or the people you serve and serve with. Again, it is a totally different thing to say, “You are proposing to do “x” and I think that is a bad idea because of “y” and I just wanted to let you know that” Vs, “You and your church suck and are failing”
It doesn’t therefore justify losing your temper publicly, but for me at least, it causes me to “get” where he is coming from.
I think, for me, what the overall response to MC’s response illustrates is how we interpret and respond to what people say/how they say it through the lens of how we feel about or perceive that person. With the added layer of how we perceive a particular issue that is intertwined with the situation.
To give an incomplete illustration…if I received an anonymous email that told me that my kids were dumb and I was a failure as a parent I would be fairly incensed. My feelings towards this anonymous criticizer would be fairly similar to MC’s….”who are you, you are a coward, a jerk, how dare you say that” If I instead received an email that said, “I don’t mean to offend you, but I have noticed lately that your kids have been behaving in “this” way and I have been really surprised that you have responded in such and such way….signed..John your Neighbor” I might be a bit taken aback, and maybe not even agree with him. But I would feel completely different about him and I would even probably say something to him along the lines of, “I appreciate you caring enough to say something, we have chosen as parents to allow that for this reason, but we are aware…etc”
@ Gary W:
Don’t forget Alinsky’s Rules. It is amazing how many fit the tactics.
You can delete this if it is unnecessary….but did I do something to get into moderation…I have never had moderated comments before, but lately everything I post has been going into moderation….
Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
That is a good point. TVC supporters keep conveying the idea on social media that because Root says he repented to church leaders, that he became trustworthy, so Karen was in error to leave him.
BUT, notifications from TVC sent to church members say that they are not permitting Root in or around children’s ministries at their churches, and when he does show up, he has to have a TVC escort at all times.
So, which is it?
Either, according to TVC members,
1. The guy’s repentance wiped away his pedophilia penchant, so that the wife should have stayed with him, or,
2. his repentance did not wipe it away, so the church is not trusting him around kids, they insist on him having an escort, etc
This church and/or its members want it both ways.
@ Gary W:
I wouldn’t draw a straight line. However, I think it is reasonable to say the Machiavelli was a student of human nature, and an aspect of the nature of humans is a desire to exert control over others for our own benefit. Another is self-deception to the extent that we are able to call evil good and good evil. That plays out in different ways. What I know is that the Kingdom of Christ is not about which human has Authority over other humans but rather that Christ is the King over all powers, rulers, and authorities.
@ Adam Borsay: We will let you know if you did anything wrong. Due to the graphic nature of this post, lots of people are experiencing issues.
@ Mandy:
Mandy, for me these issues you discuss were enough for me to be out. To abruptly leave our Acts29 church in the south DFW area over a year ago. Thankfully, we were not “contract members.” There were too many red flags. Too much toxicity or possible toxicity. When the Driscoll/MH fiasco hit the fan, I knew it was only a matter of time before the dominoes began to fall. His DNA is all over Acts29 and TVC, and this bleeds into the 500 or so Acts29 affiliated churches. Not to mention, how can I support a church who constantly promotes these people’s writings (Driscoll, Mahaney etc) knowing the toxic poison surrounding them.
I now find myself a “done.” For how long, I don’t know.
@ Adam Borsay:
I just think putting that much devotion into a local church is very strange, and if you didn’t care so deeply, the criticisms would roll off your back easier.
@ Christy, formerly known as Mandy:
My two step children attend A&M, an incoming senior and sophomore. The Breakaway koolaid is still running strong down there…
Melody wrote:
yes
Adam Borsay wrote:
methinks you dont want to leave the comfort of the doctrine of the pharisees and are trying to justify ungodly behaviour through wanting us to have compassion on a (fellow pastor in your aproved group) bully. We arent called to judge people so much but we are called to be fruit inspectors by Jesus.
Luke 6:33-35 (KJV)
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
“
Melody wrote:
I’d hope Hassan would say, “Smells like a cult.” (I’ve actually met Steve.)
@ Adam Borsay:
You know I think that if you’re a pastor who doesn’t know your own sheep, and you wouldn’t recognize them in the supermarket, and you never have looked them in the eyes, you have no right to expect them to identify themselves. What would you need that information for? You never needed it in the past.
And if you’re really going to conduct church by texting, and you justify your spiritual works by touting that your church grew by 1,500 people last week, you should be able to handle a digital response without taking it personally: because frankly, the odds are 7,000 to 1 that you are the only person you know in this dispute anyway.
Michaela wrote:
I agree the Deebs are doing a great service by blogging warnings about membership covenants. They are raising the visibility of this serious threat. I am grateful for their important gratis work.
Still, I think, it is well past time for people to seek the advice of attorneys about the potential downsides of these contracts. “Consult your own attorney” is good advice for anyone considering signing any contract.
The membership covenant trend appears to be picking up speed. Until people realize membership covenants are serious enough to warrant consulting, and paying, an attorney, I don’t expect the tide to turn against membership covenants in the U.S.
P.S. I am not an attorney nor am I married to one.
Melissa wrote:
I believe but cannot prove that Mahaney (or possibly the various shepherding movement guys before him) is the beginning of this cancer of authoritarianism, especially among Baptists for whom this is very strange. I believe that Mahaney proved the concept, and the others got onboard. Mahaney was a kid when he started his group of followers. Same with Chandler and Driscoll. Then Dever with 9Marks, then T4g and TgC which happened about the same time.
Put that together with Grudem’s theology and then you have a toxic brew. Enthusiasm, coolness, bad theology that appeals to the flesh. Let’s not forget that Wayne Grudem and Bruce Ware and John Piper spent a *lot* of time with Driscoll and Chandler. Elliot(t) Grudem was on staff at Mars Hill and then Acts29. Grudem slips his authoritarian doctrines in among others that are pretty straight up the middle, so some people don’t notice his weird Trinitarianism and weird doctrine of Man.
You are a non-attorney spokesman.
@ To the Dogs:
Beakerj wrote:
Thanks for making me chuckle!
flicker wrote:
You got me. Is there a way to get paid for being a non-attorney spokesman? 😛
Flicker wrote:
This is an excellent point. Truth is if someone signed their name the mega church pastor would likely have no clue who they are and would be asking staff pastors and small group leaders if they know the person. Once that question makes it down the mega heirarchy chain, the non anonymous person would find things very chilly and often even worse.
To the Dogs wrote:
Yes, membership covenants are definitely in vogue. Hopefully, testimonies like that of Karen’s are alerting our brothers and sisters in Christ and causing them to think twice before signing such a legal agreement.
Caveat emptor!
Waiting for the next post to go up so I can make comments in the appropriate place.
To the Dogs wrote:
Good advice as far as it goes, except that in the case of church membership covenants/contracts caution in the selection of an attorney is in order. It goes without saying that an attorney who is a member or regular attender of the church in question will have difficulty being objective. Even if a prospective attorney has no association with the particular church, it would be advisable to make inquiry and avoid any attorney who has by any means allowed themselves to become subject to the possibility of church disciplinary proceedings. Church membership, with the resulting possibility of being subjected to church disciplinary proceedings, can happen without actually signing anything.
Then again, I can save everyone the trouble and expense of finding and hiring a lawyer. Simply do not ever become a member of an organized church. Attend if you like, but do not become a member. If you are already a member, consider resigning immediately.
@To The Dogs,
Membership covenants may be picking up speed. But so are the rising number of churches imploding (Mars Hill, Sovereign Grace Ministries) and the rising number of The Dones (committed Christians who have ‘had it’ with the problems of the institutionalized church).
@ mirele:
Tell me about it! I’m in eager anticipation to read my East Coast Mom’s post!!! 😀
My refresh button is broken, seriously. 😉 I should have been praying more, though.
Gary W wrote:
Yes, hiring a useful attorney is the next consideration after realizing this is a situation in which you are agreeing to legal obligations.
“Church membership, with the resulting possibility of being subjected to church disciplinary proceedings, can happen without actually signing anything.”
If a child joins a church during confirmation, is that person subject to church discipline as an adult, even though a child cannot usually enter a contract? What would the courts say?
@ Gary W
@ Michaela and @ Gary W
What would the landscape of U.S. Christianity look like if almost all Christians chose to never join a church? What would replace organized churches? Would it be better in some ways, but worse in others?
Michaela wrote:
I’ve been entertaining myself by tweeting at The Village Church. I also updated my Twitter to include the following: “@mattchandler74’s narcissistic zero.”
Take your time on the post, Deebs. Best to get it right than be in a hurry.
To the Dogs wrote:
My understanding, without looking it up to confirm, is that a minor’s contract will be binding if not disavowed within a reasonable time after the age of majority is reached. There will differences from state to state. Whether the Courts have decided the issue within the context of your scenario, I do not know.
What I do not understand is why none of you question the most famous woman of TVC, she preaches around the country, dislikes CBMW, is quite feminist
http://jenwilkin.blogspot.co.nz/
I admit I’ve been refreshing for the next post. Wade Burleson wrote a good post on the TVC situation, and I wrote some notes about a lot of things for a blogpost I finalized today. Really sick of bullying among God’s people, so sharing while we wait. http://militarymommy777.blogspot.com/2015/05/censorship-in-church-synopsis-of.html
To the Dogs wrote:
Wow, there’s a deep question. I will have to mull it over. I am sure that Gram3 and LawProf will have some wise words to add.
What will replaced organized churches?
*Family
*Friends
*Neighbors
*Sports club members
*Book club members
*association members
*other activity members
Positives of organized church:
*community, even if superficial
*possibly help and support
*quickly organized humanitarian aid
Negatives of organized church:
*control over your life in exchange for community
*loss of autonomy
*lack of voice in the direction of the church
*punishments
*ideas foisted on you about how to live your life and conform, even if you don’t agree and they’re not The Gospel (the bizarre ideas being taught in seminaries and elsewhere)
*loss of community/relationships for non-conformity
*a place for lots of dangerous people to hang out and prey upon church members
with impunity, including children
I know that I have been a much nicer person since I have been away from my legalistic church. I was always nice. But I can really love people in a deeper way, even if they’re different than church members. I can minister to people who were broken by churches (families betrayed when their children were sexually abused and who never returned to churches). I just never got those people who didn’t go to church. I never got that they were burned in such a profound way and that’s why they didn’t go to church. That they weren’t bad folks. I now get it.
I don’t think the Village Church’s covenant can be considered a legally-binding contract. I’ve read the thing and it’s definitely missing consideration and offer and acceptance. For more, see Nolo Press’s very basic overview.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/contracts-basics-33367.html
This is important because The Village Church has, in this situation and IMHO, done some things which might be considered tortious. However, if the covenant was seen as a contract, there might be a clause in it that would allow the church to perform tortious acts towards its members.
To the Dogs wrote:
The answer, of course, is that I do not know the answers to your questions. What I can say is that since I have been Done with organized religion for 3 or 4 years, I have experienced a greater sense of participation in the Body of Christ than when I was still participating in organized church, where I was largely marginalized. One thing is for sure. Where large amounts of money could be diverted from the maintenance of buildings, parking lots, professional clergy and the like, there would be a much greater ability to provide for widows and orphans, take up the cause of the oppressed, and such like. We would even be better able to provide for our own families once we were relieved from the incessant pressure to render up corban, popularly referred to as the tithe.
Gary W wrote:
Minors, in most legal scenarios, are considered to lack capacity to contract.
So it wouldn’t be binding, save for a few exceptions.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/lack-capacity-to-contract-32647.html
Bill M wrote:
I know, I always throw up a little bit in my mouth when I hear this kind of whinging. For starters, it’s your choice, bub. You can always go work at Walmart. Second, you get paid a hell of a salary. So man up and stop complaining about how tough you have it. It just comes across as totally insincere.
@ Michaela:
Who knows how reliable this stuff you find on the Internet is, but at http://contracts.uslegal.com/contract-by-a-minor/ I found this statement: “A minor can only avoid a contract during his minority status and only for a reasonable time after he reaches the age of majority. After a reasonable period of time, the contract is deemed to be ratified and cannot be avoided.”
I’m inclined to think that in any situation where an adult has reason to think that church membership is not in their best interests, they should not assume that they are off the hook just because they were a minor when they joined. Resigning membership, especially before any kind of disciplinary proceedings are instituted, would be the safest route. If actual trouble is brewing, having a lawyer could be advisable.
Gary W UNITED STATES on Mon May 25, 2015 at 11:32 PM said:
The answer, of course, is that I do not know the answers to your questions. What I can say is that since I have been Done with organized religion for 3 or 4 years, I have experienced a greater sense of participation in the Body of Christ than when I was still participating in organized church, where I was largely marginalized. One thing is for sure. Where large amounts of money could be diverted from the maintenance of buildings, parking lots, professional clergy and the like, there would be a much greater ability to provide for widows and orphans, take up the cause of the oppressed, and such like. We would even be better able to provide for our own families once we were relieved from the incessant pressure to render up corban, popularly referred to as the tithe.
Ha, then it would look alot like Jesus and His followers! And WOMEN would be there and get lots of nice words from Him too!
Gram3 wrote:
Couldn’t put it better myself.
JeffT wrote:
It so reeks of insecurity. I would never trust a church that needed a contract to keep their people in line.
Gary W wrote:
No kidding, bro. You have to listen to this rant to get the hatred.
@ To the Dogs:
“What would the landscape of U.S. Christianity look like if almost all Christians chose to never join a church? What would replace organized churches? Would it be better in some ways, but worse in others?”
+++++++++++++++++
WOW what questions!! We could talk all night!
To the first question: what immediately comes to mind
FREEDOM
HAPPINESS
JOY
PEACE
INITIATIVE
SELF-STARTING
EFFICIENT PRODUCTIVITY
DISCOVERY GALORE
DISCOVERING THE BEAUTY AND AWESOMENESS OF ALL THESE EXCELLENT HUMAN BEINGS ALL OVER THE PLACE (regardless of faith/unfaith/religion/no religion)
REALIZING MUCH MORE TIME AT ONE’S DISPOSAL
DOING THE THINGS THAT MATTER MOST
THE NEED TO RECOGNIZE & RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO REORGANIZE PEOPLE IN SUCH A WAY THAT WOULD RESURRECT THE NEED TO CONTROL (all the r’s were an accident)
RECOGNIZINE THE NEED TO BE FLEXIBLE
LETTING GO OF THE NEED FOR THINGS TO BE THE WAY YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE
EMBRACING OTHER WAYS, STYLES, TRADITIONS
FINDING COMMONALITY AMONGST VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE, AND WORKING WITH THAT
SHEDDING PETTINESS
Mandy wrote:
Full disclosure: I served in an Acts 29 church plant for 3 years.
You have reason to be concerned, in my opinion.
Acts 29 was designed, created, and led by Mark Driscoll. It is now run by men who were either (a) recruited by Driscoll because they were like him, or (b) gravitated towards Acts 29 because it was a way to connect to Driscoll/Mars Hill Church without actually being in the Seattle area.
Despite what Acts 29 folks may tell you, excommunicating Driscoll and MHC doesn’t wipe away all of the inherent Driscoll DNA from the denomination. In terms of its design & structure, its theology, its philosophy of ministry, and the type of men that it attracts, Acts 29 is very, very similar to Mars Hill Church.
Of course not every single Acts 29 church is going to have the exact same problems and dysfunction as MHC, but the risk is always there. And, perhaps most alarmingly, there is virtually no “security system” in place if things do go wrong. Acts 29 has no effective mechanism(s) for holding pastors/leaders accountable, and so every congregation is fully at the mercy of their (typically) young, inexperienced “elders.”
Buyer beware.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
One of the theological/spiritual insights I took away from my bad experience in Acts 29 was a tremendous sense of the leaders’ lack of trust in God, and especially in the power and ability of the Holy Spirit to be at work in the lives of the people. The elders were constantly, almost obsessively, trying to control every aspect of our church and even of our peoples’ lives. And I remember thinking often, “They’re trying to usurp the role of the HS in the life of the believer…”
@Mr. H,
Spot on about all of these controlling churches (Acts 29, 9 Marks, etc). At my former church the pastors/elders thought it was their right to dictate everything from my friendships, criticize what I brought to the pot luck lunch (they actually had a meeting that I had brought bbq beef brisket and that I wasn’t prudent enough!), criticized me for riding in a dress to church on my bike in the summer (my retort: “There’s nothing immodest about having bike shorts on under a dress.”), and on and on. These people need to get a life!!!
@elastigirl,
That is one AWESOME list that you wrote about all of the things about what it would be like if Christians didn’t join a church!
I too felt freedom and happiness and joy when I no longer had to be in that insufferable church.
Add to my list: WAFFLES. Every Sunday! And other stuff too to go with Waffles. There’s time for a lavish breakfast every Sunday at home, no rushing off to church.
Not dressing up! (OK, I like dressing up. But I had to get everything ready on Saturday night, or even start getting it ready on Friday for church on Sundays. Dress, shoes, hose, jewelry.)
@ Michaela:
i actually know (used to know, in a former life) the pastor of your former church. let’s just say he’s transmogrified. (i’m very disappointed)
@ Charles:
Can you provide a link on her views about CBMW? Is she Beth Moore?
sam wrote:
I think you are out of order there. It’s very easy to say what a pastor ought to do or have done when you have never pastored a church. I didn’t see any attempt at justifying ungodly behaviour in Adam’s post.
You are yourself of course passing judgement despite saying we aren’t called to do this so much.
Ken wrote:
Yet pastors pass judgment on people all the time when they have never had to make a living in the real world. It cuts both ways.
“Narcissistic zero” isn’t even original. Chandler grabbed that from one of Louis C.K.’s stand up rants from a couple of years ago.
This just turns my stomach. Perhaps his rant can be attributed to residual brain injury/damage from the cancer…but that may be too generous. Regardless, his words are now public and recorded for the time to come.
It reminds me of James 3:1-2 – “Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect (i.e., complete)…”
@ Armour All:
This is spot on. I required anyone volunteering to work with kids at any of the children’s programs at my church to submit to a background check, interview, and submit a resume of their activities with children. Jordan Root’s resume would have popped out to me as highly suspect: too much unpaid volunteer time with kids. As my youth ministry mentor likes to say, adults called to work with youth and children prefer the company of adults, while those who have unhealthy boundaries with kids will prefer to spend the majority of their time in their company. There’s a lot of truth there.
Responsible pastors and ministry directors will get to know their youth and children workers well because background checks will not usually tell you what you really need to know about them. Of course, I’m an Episcopalian so lots of Christians think we’re soft on doctrine, but we’ve learned to protect the kids. That’s something.
@ Daisy:
The “beard” phenomenon amongst pedophiles cannot be underestimated, especially in church situations where it would seem downright creepy to have young single men working with kids. The wife provides cover, protection, and reputation (“see? he’s married! He couldn’t be a ____!”) when the inevitable questions begin to arise. What Karen has done is extraordinarily brave, ripping the beard right off her ex’s face to show the world who he really is.
And mark my words, if TVC has its way they’ll “rehabilitate” him, marry him off, and he will have no psychological support to resist offending again. And he will. Tragically, the statistics are there. This is how pedophiles work.
At the risk of throwing a log into the flames, this would be a good time for people to ask themselves if what is happening at TVC squares with the narrative that gays are more apt to sexually offend against children.
Sorry @Daisy, that last bit of my comment wasn’t directed at you.
Christy (Mandy):
I read your comments about being in a church that is connected to some of the same groups and may have some of the same tendencies that TVC has. I also read that you respect your pastor and the staff at your church, but you are concerned about certain things and you are wondering how to proceed.
I obviously do not know enough about your church, the dynamic there, to give you any hard and fast advice.
Every denomination, group, association etc. in the U.S. has it strengths and weaknesses. They all have gurus in their respective circles. And the gurus are usually right on some things, and wrong on others.
You may need to leave. But the Lord will make that clear in due time. And remember, wherever you go, you will find a new set of problems to face.
Or you may need to stay.
I have always come from the perspective that the church I attend is my church, just as much as the pastor’s, the staff’s or the official leadership.
The polity of a given situation will dictate more than anything how much “say” you have in a given situation. Evangelicals have an amazing amount of say, as opposed to more centralized situations. Try writing the Pope about an issue, and see how much attention you receive.
The Lord may be moving you on to another type of church or he may want you to stay where you are and be an agent of change or at least a witness that while you love your church, you do not agree with everything that is done there.
I may not be able to affect all decisions, but I can be a voice, and help the pastor and staff make good decisions.
The first goal is to educate.
I had concerns about C.J. Mahaney long before the SGM scandal. I had read his beliefs about polity, i.e. that he was an apostle. That set off a huge red light to me. I began expressing those concerns gently to people around me. As I gained new information, I would send that along, or make a point to bring it up at appropriate times.
I have found that forwarding some posts, such as the one about TVC disciplining the wife, to the pastor and staff is a good beginning. I also forward them to people in the congregation whom I think may have similar feelings or interests. Obviously, you have to pick the right posts that will communicate, and not detract from your message. Posts that are informational are really helpful. Posts that are incendiary are not as useful.
I would also meet with the pastor or staff and express concerns in a very gentle and loving way. I would not write a bunch of emails.
Your concerns will not be embraced at first. But if you are in it for the long haul, just take your time.
I would also have conversations with people about your concerns.
If you decide to stay in a church like this, being a change agent takes a great deal of patience and wisdom. You will get push back. When you do, just say, “I understand that you feel strongly about this, but I have a different conviction about this.” If you are asked why you stay at the church, then just say that there is probably no church that you are going to agree with 100% of the time, and that you have selected the church for the people, their love for the Lord, the good preaching (whatever is true in your situation).
I believe that one key is not to get anxious or to try and force change.
The other is not to overreact if you are challenged.
People like their own ideas.
For the church to change, it must become the church’s idea to change. Not your demand to change.
I suspect that many churches may have tried to handle sexual abuse the way SGM churches did. If you took that on 4 years ago in a church like that, you would have received significant blow back.
But 4 years later, with all that has happened, many churches are changing their tune, or at least becoming educated on the issue.
You also might be threatened with “discipline”. You would probably be able to go through that with no problems, too, unless the church is really weird, in which case, I am sure that you will leave.
If a church tries to “discipline” you, what in the world can they do? They can’t take your money. They can’t lock you up. They can’t stop you from coming.
In fact, a disciplinary situation would give you a platform to express your opinions even more broadly.
I don’t know what a church would do with a nice, kind, young woman who says, “I love this church, I love the teaching, I love the people, I love the fellowship etc., but I disagree with the idea that the NT teaches …. (insert). It is a matter of conscience.”
If churches try to force conformity on every little point, they will be spending all of their time doing that.
Obviously, if you disagree with an essential point of your church’s practice or doctrine (e.g. the nature of Christ, the Trinity, the nature of salvation, the nature of scripture), you should leave.
But if the disagreement is on some non-essential point, there may be no reason to leave.
If you decide to stay, just be yourself, and hold on to your convictions. Don’t panic. Don’t get too anxious about anything, and don’t try to force too much that you may not be able to affect. Don’t throw your life into an uproar over some minor practice or policy at your church.
I wish you the best.
People who have weak arguments are afraid of anonymity.
Pastors, blog hosts, commenters etc. can all become enemies of anonymity if the anonymous person is making good arguments.
People have attacked me, not just my position, but my anonymity when they felt their arguments were faulty.
This is an unavoidable human trait.
Matt Chandler would do better to ignore comments that bother him. It really is amazing that he took the time to take on one anonymous email.
That anonymous email must have hit s nerve.
If it did, that nerve needs attention.
lydia wrote:
A pastor should be able to make biblically informed judgements.
But … more to the point, a elder/overseer should be well thought of by outsiders in Paul’s list of qualifications. It is very difficult for this to be the case if they have never really been ‘outside’! Full-time pastors can be or get very out of touch with the everyday, mundane life that the congregation has to face, and the world ‘elder’ to my mind implies someone older, this is not a task primarily for young men.
I wonder if some of the problems encountered in the modern evangelical church might be avoided by having older, more worldly-wise pastors in churches. One house-group stream in the UK used to make elders do a stint in secular employment for a while every so often so they could relate to how the other half lives. Not a bad idea.
Ken wrote:
I don’t think that was exactly what Sam was getting at. What I read is that the notion of a paid executive of the church who rules over others in the church is not a Biblical one, but it certainly is very similar to the view held by the scribes and Pharisees. That is the larger point that I think that Adam is missing.
Adam has the heart of a pastor, and I don’t see any evidence that he would do what Chandler did. While I don’t think he was necessarily excusing Chandler’s behavior, what he was doing was providing a rationale for how a *pastor* might respond in that way in front of the flock to an anonymous email. That is where I think there is a disconnect with Adam’s thinking. Being a pastor does not bring immunity from ill will. It just doesn’t, and people in the real world have to deal with much worse. A good pastor will feel the weight of the burdens his people are carrying. A hireling lashes out at the sheep for not doing what the hireling wants the sheep to do. The sheep hear the voice of the Shepherd, not the hireling.
But the cancer of authoritarianism is killing the Body of Christ. And that is the point that I think you are not fully grasping.
elastigirl wrote:
It’s amazing what happens to a person when others give them some bit of authority 🙁
lydia wrote:
Jen Wilkins, TVC’s comp gal 🙂
Gram3 wrote:
Here’s a good description of Acts29 in the archives of you tube.
It’s just a little over 50 seconds long:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSCBvu_kijo
Ken wrote:
As should every Christian man and woman.
It makes no sense from a rational perspective. A person who makes an anonymous complaint might be a coward, but a “narcissist”? Not at all, a narcissist loves the limelight.
Little boys make complaints openly and without guile–I know, we have, among our clan, six boys, so I have a good deal more experience with little boys, pathetic and otherwise, than Mr. Chandler. The anonymous poster was not being anything like a little boy.
From the irrational perspective of one who has NPD, however, this makes perfect sense. The one afflicted with NPD, particularly one with sadistic tendencies, tends to have the mental makeup of a very disturbed, pathetic little boy and they are by definition a narcissist. They also are desperate to avoid facing what they are, thus they go about life projecting their sickness onto others. I have personally experienced this from a very sick, very sadistic pastor who not only secretly despised his congregation (and told me so when I was an elder because he miscalculated that I would be a kindred spirit), but immediately started telling people that I was a DSM-IV sociopath/NPD when I stood up to him, blew the whistle and told congregants what he’d said about them. It’s pure projection.
Mr. Chandler has given us every indication that he has NPD and is projecting. That’s my theory.
Bridget wrote:
Exactly, there’s nothing special about a pastor. A pastor is not a CEO or singular leader, such a role does not exist in the NT. Ken, reevaluate what you’ve been taught and come to believe, it is not biblical.
Anonymous wrote:
It is not if you understand the pathology of one who is sick in the way that Mr. Chandler appears to be.
I remember reading this post but hearing Chandler say it the way he did was a shock to the system.
Janet wrote:
Law Prof wrote:
What Chandler did was use the person and the email to weave a story to justify his rant.
@Daisy
Thanks for the Ron Burgundy video! So funny. If I could only get past all the armed security guards that phrase might be the “tipping point” for getting Robert Morris and Jimmy Evans off the pulpit. I heard a rumor that Robert’s current 10 week sabbatical might be tied to emotional distress over hair issues ; )
As for Matt Chandler being hip or relevant, 81 days ago he Tweeted, “The incessant need that Christians have to be seen as cool and relevant must die”. Statements like this are what make him so attractive to so many. Now I wonder if he’s not another Robert Morris who says the opposite of what they mean in order to achieve a given goal (ie, Morris says he never preaches the prosperity gospel then immediately launches into a story of how an impoverished member started tithing then became a multi-millionaire). That one MC rant was five years ago, but I know people who attend TVC, so it is food for thought.
@Gram3
Coises on you Gram3! I cannot get that stupid “Wayne Grudem, Go Wayne Grudem” song out of my head now! It’s a bit surprising that his Pentecostals groupies don’t have a better sense of rhythm.
Anonymous wrote:
Seriously? None of us can ever avoid attacking a person for anonymity?
Ken wrote:
All believers have anointing. (1 John) All believers have accessvto the same Holy Spirit. All believers, so inclined, can study scripture and make informed judgments. .
What exactly does an institutional pastor have more of, in your opinion?
Bridget wrote:
Yes. It was used as a larger warning to the pew peons.
LT wrote:
Sort of like starting a child-trafficking ministry?
Daisy wrote:
PastorGregLaurie — now that’s a blast from the past. Guy used to be a regular on local Christianese AM Radio in the late Seventies/early Eighties. Right up there with PastorChuckSmith and the Calvary Chapel types.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Laurie is still one of the glitterati powerhouses here in Southern Cal. His influence is staggering and he has legions of devotees who hang on his every word as if the words are from the Almighty himself still thundering out of Horeb.
Muff Potter wrote:
“THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!
THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”
Law Prof wrote:
This is certainly a fascinating place to be! I couldn’t agree with you more, I don’t see where you have got the idea of a special ‘in the pulpit and above contradiction’ version of the pastorate from what I said.
There’s still an element of the charismatic in me that believes in every member ministry. That doesn’t mean you can completely do away with leadership from mature believers, and perhaps have a first amongst equals, but all to often the institutional pastor seems to me to be the cork in the bottle. A man do does the ministry rather than enabling others to do it.
I think the idea of “The Pastor” is a hangover from the Roman Catholic concept of a priest with special powers. Some these days seem to be copying the worldly concept of modern executive management, and both the catholic idea and CEO idea allow an unwarranted authoritarianism in churches.
lydia wrote:
Like my reply to LawProf, couldn’t agree with you more!!
Not only can believers study and make judgements, they should! I’m not fooled by the ‘judge not lest you be judged’ excuse for failing to discern and evaluate what is being taught in or going on in a local church.
‘Touch not the Lord’s anointed’. Fine. But 99% of those who quote this verse to stifle legitimate criticism are not the Lord’s anointed.
Oh lack of editing function, how many crimes are committed in thy name!
Ken wrote:
Have you actually studied that in context? I get really scared when that is trotted out in reference to pastors today. They are not kings of Israel.
Ken wrote:
Yet Chandler seems to be envious of those CEOs – from his sermon:
It looks like he wants to impress those CEOs, wants to be allowed to play with the big boys.
A pastor has, of course, a certain amount of managerial duties, but even then this only applies to the church staff, not the congregation.
The only group of people for whom he is a kind of CEO is the paid church staff, and even then he should not forget it’s the members who pay his salary. Not the other way round.
The modern CEO model is much too authoritarian even for corporations, and disallows most kinds of dissent, which in turn leads to all kinds of problems (shortsighted decisions nobody dared question, unethical behaviour – did I hear the word “bank” anywhere -, etc.)
It definitely does not have any place in a church. Not for the staff, and even less, definitely not at all, for the members.
lydia wrote:
But 99% of those who quote this verse to stifle legitimate criticism are not the Lord’s anointed.
I have charismatic wolves in mind here in particular, some of whom are not even Christians in the first place, let alone those who might be but whose ‘anointing’ is delusion on a grand scale rather than the anointing all believers have. They are much the same people who trot out the ‘judge not’ verse, because if you did, you would see right through them!
Pity the italics got messed up first time round.
People thinking for themselves and acting accordingly.
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Beakerj wrote:
I wondered about that…..I never heard of rabid sheep before, & I was laughing at the goofiness of the image that raised in my mind. (Think: WWF).
Melody wrote:
Actually, that was what my mother (the English teacher) recommended for reading before trying to understand ANY authoritarian group or government….
Melody wrote:
Tragically, I think you are right……
Wow. “Narcissistic zero” in this case sounds very much like classic projection.
Why, oh why do gullible people give any power to such charlatans like Chandler? When will this insanity end?
But I digress.
On an unrelated note, thank you, oh minions of Satin in league with Stan, for all you do. May gods, in whatever shape or form they exist (if they exist), keep you safe.
Just read the comments (better late than never) and see that Law Prof already pointed out what I noted too:
And it is a very solid one, given what we can observe and what’s known about Chandler (and his ilk).
It does not take a psychologist (although I happen to be one) to see it. Chandler’s rage at being criticized itself, if nothing else (and there is plenty else), shows clearly enough what we are dealing with there.
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