Farewell Mars Hill . . . Lessons Learned?

"Thank you again for your generosity and faithfulness in helping us finish well."

Mars Hill Website

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=31709&picture=otazkyQuestions

It's hard to imagine that just two weeks from today Mars Hill Church will cease to exist.  But wait!  You still have time to make a year-end financial gift (and help Mars Hill finish well).  That is NOT a joke!   Here is the pertinent information on the Mars Hill website:

Thank you for continuing to faithfully serve and give to your church. As we close out the year and say good-bye to Mars Hill, your gifts continue to be very important as they will determine how much will be distributed to help fund the eleven independent churches launching in January. Without generous people like you continuing to give through the end of the year, many of these churches may not have the necessary funds to continue as new churches.

We wanted to provide the following information for our donors and supporters, to keep you informed as you prepare to make your final year-end gifts to Mars Hill Church.

For those so inclined, there are several ways to contribute (which are explained at the above link).  Just how much of the money contributed will be funneled out to the eleven independent churches?  We will probably never know…

As the curtain falls on Mars Hill Church, Gerry Breshears (and his wife Sherry) have written a post entitled "Lessons Learned From Mars Hill".  

If the name Gerry Breshears sounds familiar, it is probably because he co-authored Vintage Jesus, Death by Love, Vintage Church, and Doctrine with Mark Driscoll.  They were in the Re:Lit series from Crossway.  One has to wonder how much Driscoll actually contributed to these books.

Gerry Breshears is a professor of Systematic Theology at Western Seminary.  You may remember that Mars Hill Church was planning to partner with Western Seminary to host a Master of Arts and a Master of Divinity program, according to an article just over a year ago in the Christian Post.

And speaking of Western Seminary, Mark Driscoll completed a master's degree in exegetical theology from there according to Mark Driscoll's bio (pastormark.tv).

Getting back to what Gerry Breshears and his wife wrote about Lessons Learned, here are some of the reasons they cite for the 'demise of Mars Hill'.

Leaders have a dark side

Every leader has a dark side to their character… The brokenness of leaders must never be excused in light of their great strengths. Leaders must know those weaknesses, flaws, and sin things in them and call a team around them to overcome those. Leaders must invite trusted colleagues into the deepest parts of their lives, the slimiest realities, to bring the healing work of the Spirit. Leaders must have people who will listen well to them and invite them to say, "No" to their most cherished ideas and proposals, to alert them to the damage their sarx is threatening.

We seem to recall that at least two elders who said "No" and were 'fired' for daring to disagree with the mighty one – Mark Driscoll.

Power can be dangerous

Power, the capacity to act or get things done, the ability to execute change, is an essential part of leadership… Power, like gasoline, is both advantageous and dangerous. It is beneficial when used biblically, in service of others (Matt. 20:25-28; Acts 20:28 Pet. 5:1-4). But power is also a seductive, addictive, delicious narcotic… That is why ministry and leadership in the New Testament is always a team thing.

There can be no question that power was a 'delicious narcotic' to Mark Driscoll.  The more popular he became, thanks to the Christian leaders who heavily promoted him, the more power-mongering he became.  We are still waiting for apologies from those men who glorified Mark Driscoll. 

Prophet, Priest, and King – Not biblical leadership qualities

MHCC categorized leaders as Prophet, Priest, or King with a clear ordering of King, Prophet and then Priest. But those are not the biblical categories of leadership qualities for the church and certainly not with this ordering. Prioritizing King, the rightly criticized "Moses model" of leadership, often results in a domineering culture where results take priority over the soul care of the Priest. It tends to define unity as loyalty and agreement with the king. If this happens the danger of "group think" increases as disagreements are not stated lest they be judged as lack of submission or cowardice.

We never took the Prophet, Priest, and King seriously, and we hope our brothers and sisters in Christ will never be conned by these titles again.

Leaders Must Not Lose Touch With the Church

Leaders must be deeply involved in the pastoral life of the church no matter how large the church… If leaders cannot be pastors to every member of a large church, they must compassionately invest in pastoral realities lest they lose touch with the church Jesus calls them to shepherd. This pastoral work will be with "report to" people but also with some old and new members. Otherwise leadership becomes abstract, policy driven, and in danger of becoming fear based and abusive as decisions become for the good of the organization instead of for the good of the people.

We wholeheartedly agree with this one.  Mars Hill Church definitely became fear based and abusive.  As Driscoll so often said, there is a pile of bodies under the Mars Hill bus.  Obviously, his focus was on the organization, not the people.

Leaders must not label staff frustrations as Satan's attack or bad attitudes

The elder board of a large church must keep close touch with staff morale. This often gets lost in defined channels of communication where top leaders never hear the hearts of lower level staff. Because staff are closest to the life of the church, they are most sensitive to the life of the church. While outsiders see the leader ‘s greatness, the staff often see a darker, more dysfunctional side of things. Leaders must not write off their discouragement or frustrations to Satan’s attack, or simply condemn unhappiness as bad attitudes. The board must remember that the staff/infra-structure is as important as the charismatic leader for the health and effectiveness of the organization, for effective sustainable ministry.

How often do we see these labels being used when someone provides constructive criticism.  Leaders should listen to lower level staff.  Had this occurred at Mars Hill, it might have survived.

Leaders Must Promote a Climate of Trust

Sound theology, effective ministry, good teaching, evangelism do not guarantee Christlike church life. They can never replace love and service, mutual submission and support. Leader must always promote a climate of trust which can only occur in personal vulnerability and compassionate care.

Dysfunctional Leaders Have Accomplices

Even the most dynamic leader does not build a dysfunctional culture alone. Subordinates cooperate in building the culture which turns on them later. People often make the dynamic leader to BE the church rather than the servant of the church. When leaders buy into the lie, their identity becomes so intertwined with the church that all charges become personal attacks. They become an idol and the worship becomes idolatrous. A church culture based in anger and fear cannot produce life of the Spirit.

Was Mark Driscoll ever a 'servant of the church'?  He seemed to have a big agenda from the start.  He created a culture of fear (probably from his angry outbursts), which we believe drove away the Spirit and contributed to the demise of Mars Hill Church.

Bloggers are also to blame…

Incredibly, Gerry and Sherry Breshears end with the following paragraph (see screen shot below).

http://breshears.net/?p=1720

Oh yes – blame the bloggers!  Funny how Mark Driscoll / Mars Hill have bragged for years about building their brand through this newfangled technology.  They were one of the first ministries to build an image through the internet and brag about it (see screen shot from the Mars Hill website):

https://marshill.com/about

When individuals finally began expressing their concerns about Mark Driscoll and his ministry through the blogosphere, they are accused of being 'gossips'.  Never mind that what we have discussed here at TWW has been backed up with documentation.  While we cannot speak for other bloggers, we can affirm that we do not receive any income from blogging. In fact, this endeavor costs money to maintain the website. 

While the Mars Hill machine is dismantled piece by piece, it appears that few lessons have been learned by this crowd.  And they expect money to roll in by year-end?  As we have stated numerous times before – Caveat Emptor!   We believe God wants all of us to invest wisely into His Kingdom.  That applies not only to our treasure, but to our time and talent.  For those of you who have been a part of Mars Hill Church, we are praying for wisdom and the Holy Spirit's guidance as you move forward in your journey.  Godspeed!

Lydia's Corner:    Genesis 41:17-42:17   Matthew 13:24-46   Psalm 18:1-15   Proverbs 4:1-6

Comments

Farewell Mars Hill . . . Lessons Learned? — 164 Comments

  1.     .
     __

    “Bad, Bad, ‘Preacher’ Man?”

    hmmm…

    —> da Seattle proverbial junk yard dog is on da ARC leash now? 

    (bump)

    Hope they brought the biggest proverbial religious doggie bag they could find…

    -snicker-

    …they’re probably gonna need it!   

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    Sopy
    ___
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB_TM5AvJP0

    🙂

  2. Bloggers are to blame?!? 😯

    BULL%^$!!!! Alright….you hear so much from this crowd about being a man. Can we stop all the blame shifting, and twisting of words. Once again…for those in the Neo-Reformed crowd…having a penis does not make you a man. Think of all the animals that have a penis that are not men….giraffes, elephants, lions, tigers and bears oh my! 😯

    What makes a man is taking ownership of your mistakes and practicing responsibility. The Neo-Reformed crowd is an epic failure of both manhood and Christianity. The fact that all this happens and THEY miss the biggest opportunity of all….repentance and reconciliation in front of Seattle just stuns me. When are the likes of Tim Keller, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Sutton Turner, Matt Chandler, etc.. going to act like men and publicly repent of supporting Driscoll for years? When are Piper, Keller, Chandler, Turner, Driscoll, going to call Meyer,Petry, Smith, and all the others hurting and needing closure and get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness for the hurt they have caused and bastardizing the Gospel in the process? Again having a penis does not make one a man…I don’t give a damn what John Piper says. What makes a man is owning your mistakes and working them out. You do that for the benefit of God, yourself, and those you hurt. Rant over…

  3. One thing I have to say…I honestly hope that Rob Smith and others can carry out a lawsuit against Mars Hill Seattle. It's time…it's necessary, and it's overdue. Here's the opportunity that exists…..evangelicals are fantastic at creating messes and leaving them behind in their wake. For exhibit A, I present "Der Humble One" who left the Happiest Place on Earth (no not a North Korean Concentration Camp….) and fled Gaitherburg, Maryland with his run away church plant and ended up in Louisville.

    But if Rob Smith and other Mars Hill members carry on a lawsuit against Mars Hill think of what that means. It would be an example of Christians holding a church and a corrupt, decadent man who never should have been a pastor to begin with…accountable. How many times do Christians justify and show the world how flawed Christianity is? How many times do Christians leave damage in their wake that is left to the civil authorities to clean up? How many times are opportunities for the Gospel squandered? Rob Smith -if you read this – I wish you luck and I hope to see Mark Driscoll swear under oath one day in a Seattle court of law. It's overdue…and it's time.

  4. One final thought then its off to bed. Mark Driscoll should never have been a pastor to begin with. What a waste. My heart breaks at those who have been hurt by Mars Hill. I hope they find justice. I do not trust Mark Driscoll at all, and I honestly don’t know what I would trust him doing. He could always have a profitable career running a pornography shop in Los Angeles, but I don’t trust him doing that either.

  5. Eagle wrote:

    I do not trust Mark Driscoll at all, and I honestly don’t know what I would trust him doing.

    I'm right there with you, Eagle. The man is a danger to all who come near to his poison.

  6. Eagle wrote:

    One final thought then its off to bed. Mark Driscoll should never have been a pastor to begin with. What a waste. My heart breaks at those who have been hurt by Mars Hill. I hope they find justice. I do not trust Mark Driscoll at all, and I honestly don’t know what I would trust him doing. He could always have a profitable career running a pornography shop in Los Angeles, but I don’t trust him doing that either.

    The scary part is this….there are people who still think that Driscoll hung the moon.
    He will go away for a while and like the Phoenix he’ll rise from the ashes.
    Sure, it might not be as big and as bold as he once was, but there are so many people who think he is a great man/pastor.
    When they were hauling off a crying Jim Bakker to prison, I thought that was the last we would see of him….and he’s back on TV hocking survival gear for Christians.
    So, sadly, this is not the last we will see of MD.
    P.T. Barnum was right….

  7. Deb,

    I want to know… Where’s the money from our blogging?!! If we find it, maybe we, too, could hire security like all the big, celebrity pastors.

  8. Eagle wrote:

    What makes a man is taking ownership of your mistakes and practicing responsibility. The Neo-Reformed crowd is an epic failure of both manhood and Christianity. The fact that all this happens and THEY miss the biggest opportunity of all….repentance and reconciliation in front of Seattle just stuns me. When are the likes of Tim Keller, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Sutton Turner, Matt Chandler, etc.. going to act like men and publicly repent of supporting Driscoll for years? When are Piper, Keller, Chandler, Turner, Driscoll, going to call Meyer,Petry, Smith, and all the others hurting and needing closure and get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness for the hurt they have caused and bastardizing the Gospel in the process?

    They won’t, either because they believe they (and Driscoll) never did anything wrong or because they have too much to lose themselves if they renounce Driscoll and then the sheeple wake up and decide to take a closer look at them.

  9. Sigh. Reading this just makes me smh.

    EAGLE, YOU TRULY SOAR! Don't forget, blogging is very often a female-dominated activity! This crowd may feel just as much man-shame as if they were kneed in the groin by a woman. 🙂

  10. dee wrote:

    Deb, I want to know… Where’s the money from our blogging?!! If we find it, maybe we, too, could hire security like all the big, celebrity pastors.

    That's what I want to know! I had no idea you two were funding a decadent lifestyle by attacking MH 🙂

    Seriously, one other lesson from the MH implosion is that a leopard can't change its spots. Despite the fact that MH died of its own self-inflicted wounds, the powers that be that were left at MH and set up the spin-off into separate churches learned NOTHING. The whole process has been cloak-and-dagger, with no clarity at all on how these churches are to be governed, where and how much of the current MH funds are going, and where future contributions will go. The lack of good church governance and transparency were the primary reasons for implosion of MH, but the remaining leadership learned absolutely nothing from that, they continue to conduct church affairs in secret – the same has been true for every other fall of celebrity preachers – they fall in scandal and they come back having learned nothing.

  11. @ cookingwithdogs:

    Then none of these guys are men. Not a single one. That's what it boils down to. John Piper is one of the biggest cowards that has existed. I'm embarrassed to have him in the same species as myself.

  12. Eagle, it is not as easy as you think suing these guys. Every single person who walked in the door of that church and supported it, is complicit. They did so voluntarily and did not ask enough questions early on or demand to see budgets. They went along with this stuff for years. And until it affected them personally or the PR got so bad, they did not even see it.

    Now, they might get him on specific lies such as the global fund, etc.

    This is what I really try to get folks to understand: Going to a church is voluntary. Giving your money is voluntary. Our laws are such that we are seen as adults making decisions. It was our choice to give them money and never demand a budget or oversight.

    Churches can deceive people all day long and it is legal and profitable for those in charge. The question we must ask ourselves is why we went along with that sort of structure to begin with? Why would we give them our money with no oversight of how it is spent? How come we did not know the staff salaries? How come we were not a part of the decision making process in the Body?

    The question is: Why do people do this? Once we have really looked into the answer, we tend to totally change our thinking about what is the Body of Christ. At least I hope.

    Driscoll will end up doing what he does best. He will find a stage somewhere.

  13. Lydia wrote:

    Driscoll will end up doing what he does best. He will find a stage somewhere.

    Yes he will. And his lemmings will follow.  I guess he tickles their ears so well!

  14. We are still waiting for apologies from those men who glorified Mark Driscoll.

    Sadly, I suspect you’ll be waiting for a long, long time. The same is true for those men who glorified C.J. Mahaney.

  15. The comments Breshears makes, except for the one about wicked witch and WT bloggers, are pretty good. But the big problem which this “lessons learned” memo ignores is the bad theology which undergirds these abusive churchy systems. The remark about the wicked witch bloggers is very telling about what he really thinks.

    He still thinks this is about power and who should have it. The blogosphere has fundamentally altered the power dynamic of carefully controlled information channels. Breshears and the other Gospel Groupthinkers think that the blogs are good as long as they control and curate the content and the comments. When they can’t control those, then the medium itself is attacked because we must not have BadThoughts that challenge Gospel Groupthink.

    The fact is that Breshears did not speak up publically before this, at least AFAIK. I would like to know where Breshears was while Mars Hill Churchcorp was abusing both its leaders who dared to speak up and the pewpeons? When did his epiphany occur and why? Was it because it became no longer profitable to ride pastorMARK’s coattails? When will Breshears disavow the power theology of gender and clergy that he espouses? That would make a difference for a lot of people and help his credibility enormously.

  16. Eagle wrote:

    What makes a man is taking ownership of your mistakes and practicing responsibility. The Neo-Reformed crowd is an epic failure of both manhood and Christianity. The fact that all this happens and THEY miss the biggest opportunity of all….repentance and reconciliation in front of Seattle just stuns me.

    Amen.

    Eagle wrote:

    When are the likes of Tim Keller, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Sutton Turner, Matt Chandler, etc.. going to act like men and publicly repent of supporting Driscoll for years? When are Piper, Keller, Chandler, Turner, Driscoll, going to call Meyer,Petry, Smith, and all the others hurting and needing closure and get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness for the hurt they have caused and bastardizing the Gospel in the process?

    The same year as the first Hell Winter Olympics is my best guess based on performance to date.

  17. Lydia wrote:

    Driscoll will end up doing what he does best. He will find a stage somewhere.

    And the Money will flow.

  18. Eagle wrote:

    Then none of these guys are men. Not a single one. That’s what it boils down to. John Piper is one of the biggest cowards that has existed.

    John Piper, He of the Always-Fluttering Hands?

    John Piper, Predestined Heir to CALVIN’s mantle, Self-proclaimed in Geneva itself?

  19. JeffT wrote:

    Seriously, one other lesson from the MH implosion is that a leopard can’t change its spots. Despite the fact that MH died of its own self-inflicted wounds, the powers that be that were left at MH and set up the spin-off into separate churches learned NOTHING.

    Except with the “spin-off into separate churches”, every one of the Elders(TM) is going “Now I Can Be Mark Driscoll of MY Very Own Mega!!!!!”

  20. Don’t forget Driscoll DNA thinking is embedded in Acts 29 church plants. it was not all that long ago he was the darling of the Cal resurgence movement.

  21. Gram3 wrote:

    The remark about the wicked witch bloggers is very telling about what he really thinks.

    He reminds me of my ex-husband. Yes, he was wrong to have an affair, but gee, it wouldn't have happened if I'd had dinner on the table at precisely 6 pm every night.  :eyeroll:

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy said:

    “John Piper, He of the Always-Fluttering Hands?”

    Just think; add a good stiff breeze, he’ll go airborne and we’ll never see him again.
    Flutter on, John.

  23. Very interesting post; thanks for posting it.
    I think, after reading and thinking through Breshears’ post that I disagree with him at fundamental levels. I mean, a lot of these sound good at first, until you start to think through them. For example, “Prophet Priest, King are not biblical leadership qualities.” This presupposes the idea that there is such a thing as “biblical” leadership qualities, and that having those qualities will somehow forestall the emergence of a future Mark Driscoll. I disagree with both presuppositions. Furthermore, none of these seem to really address any root. For example, “Leaders have a dark side”: I’m not sure this is true, but if this is true, how can Breshears say that a “team” is the solution to the problem? Which segues nicely into my next point, which is a dismissal of the Holy Spirit in any meaningful capacity. Elsewhere he implies that a plurality of pastors is somehow the antidote to the Mars Hill problem, which is absurd. I have personally experienced churches that practiced “elder plurality” and were abusive – I’m not sure why anyone would expect any kind of system to prevent evil (it didn’t work for the Hebrews…). Which of course leads me to my nearly-tragic final point. There is no positive encouragement toward practicing the fruit of the spirit. All this talk about systems of accountability etc., but no call to actual righteousness. All of which to say, I almost came out of the article wondering if Breshears sees the problem as an abusive church structure, or just a church failure. It al came across as very odd to me.

  24. Gram3 wrote:

    But the big problem which this “lessons learned” memo ignores is the bad theology which undergirds these abusive churchy systems.

    He still thinks this is about power and who should have it.

    When will Breshears disavow the power theology of gender and clergy that he espouses?

    Bingo. His piece is damage control for The Doctrine of Clerical Power. He is rearranging the deck chairs.

  25. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And the Money will flow.

    “The spice must flow!…
    ~ attributed to Frank Herbert ~

    Exactly.
    And House Harkonnen’s method KEEPS IT FLOWING AND FLOWING AND FLOWING.

  26. Gram3 wrote:

    He still thinks this is about power and who should have it.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER. And those who are too weak to wield it.”
    ~ attributed to Lord Voldemort ~

    “The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the Powerless.”
    ~ Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984 ~

    Note that both the above about “All about POWER and Who Should Have IT” come from THE BAD GUYS.

    “SO SHALL I EXALT MY THRONE ABOVE THAT OF THE MOST HIGH!”

  27. Eagle wrote:

    When are the likes of Tim Keller, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Sutton Turner, Matt Chandler, etc.. going to act like men and publicly repent of supporting Driscoll for years?

    Frankly, I think this sentence is a bit wide of the Mark.

  28. I got a postcard from one of the neighborhood megas yesterday. Come to our Christmas services it said. It got me to wondering how much money it cost to send out, particularly in a neighborhood with seven Mormon church buildings (each hosting two or three congregations) within a mile of the mega. I’m not saying it’s entirely dumb to do, remebering back to my years in Utah where the liturgical churches’ midnight services were cram-full of looky lou non-members. Maybe the same thing happens here.

  29. mirele wrote:

    where the liturgical churches’ midnight services were cram-full of looky lou non-members.

    no kidding – i’d never have guessed it!

  30. linda wrote:

    Prophet, priest, king>
    Yes, but last time I checked His name is still Jesus.

    Yes, praise God! And none of the usurpers and pretenders are named Jesus.

  31. Lydia, You raise questions for Christians to ask themselves about what churches appeal to them and why and how they fund churches without asking serious questions.

    Gram3, You have continually highlighted faulty church systems, Gospel Groupthink, and gender inequality among these guys. You have gotten your own answers.

    Eagle, Agreed—you soar. You told it like it is and continually draw attention to these flawed and harmful systems.

    Many other folks have offered wise and insightful comments regarding this distressing issue. The corporate wisdom of God’s people who care is astounding.

    Looks like the blogosphere rules!! The internet continues to be main way of raising awareness about flawed leadership that calls itself Christian.

    Dee and Deb, you guys rock!

    For interest, one of the articles on my website that seems to be the most popular is entitled: “Spiritual Abuse and Why Are Toxic Leaders Allowed to Remain in Power So Long?” This article continues to get repeated hits. People seem to be pondering these types of situations with intensity.

    A sequel to that article is Brad Sargent’s excellent post that identifies where people find themselves. Brad’s article has just been re-posted and is now on my website as well as his. It is called: “Spiritual Abuse and Where Is God Now?” A significant question.

    You can find these two articles and many others dealing with spiritual abuse and recovery and biblical gender issues at: http://www.ChurchExiters.com

    Drop by and see what you think.

  32. I found Mark to be a GREAT preacher and Pastor… I have listened to MOST of his sermons via iTunes or YouTube… It is sad that everyone turned on him and did not help him in his time of troubles… Everyone sins, EVERYONE! We all need forgiveness and grace from God. Jesus was sent to us as a second chance, if all these haters acted more like Jesus, the world would be a better place and Mark could be helped….

  33. @ dee:

    Where’s the money from our blogging?!!

    I suspect the only “first million” you’ve made doing this, is a million headaches. 🙂

  34. Who do you think is left to jump on the Driscoll gravy train? He made a brief showing at Morris’ conference, but continued to whine over the same issues while using his kids as innocent victims to defend his Christ-like stance on his situation. Does wife have a backbone to stand up and say no to protect their children from this heresy? Is there no one left who Driscoll will listen to who has a voice of reason? He must be the most isolated man in the world. Sounds pretty close to Hell in my opinion.

  35. Barb Orlowski wrote:

    For interest, one of the articles on my website that seems to be the most popular is entitled: “Spiritual Abuse and Why Are Toxic Leaders Allowed to Remain in Power So Long?” This article continues to get repeated hits. People seem to be pondering these types of situations with intensity.

    Not surprised that your article is so popular. From our perspective, it seems like spiritual abuse has gotten worse since we first started blogging almost six years ago.

    Hopefully, the information we share here will spare some of our readers the pain of being in a spiritually abusive church.

    Blessings to you!

  36. @Mickey,

    I’m not certain how old you are and how spiritually discerning you are. People did try to help Mark Driscoll. He turned on them like an attack dog. He fired people with impunity. He ordered that they and their families be shunned. He thought nothing of destroying peoples’ good reputations, all of their ties/friendships, and their livelihoods. He lied about Godly elders and other Christians. He does not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve as a pastor.

  37. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    There is no positive encouragement toward practicing the fruit of the spirit.

    Excellent thoughts, Dr. Fundystan. I have observed in these churches that the work of the Spirit is no longer needed since we have all of the “shepherding” and “accountability” at our disposal. It fits nicely into their theological framework that God has sovereignly appointed these shepherds over you, and you must therefore listen to them (and certainly not criticize them). Whatever happened to trusting the Spirit’s work in the lives of the church people?

  38. mickey johnson wrote:

    I found Mark to be a GREAT preacher and Pastor… I have listened to MOST of his sermons via iTunes or YouTube… It is sad that everyone turned on him and did not help him in his time of troubles… Everyone sins, EVERYONE! We all need forgiveness and grace from God. Jesus was sent to us as a second chance, if all these haters acted more like Jesus, the world would be a better place and Mark could be helped….

    I’m not even sure your comment is for real. Apparently you tuned out the bits where he threatened to go “Old Testament” on the many who tried, sincerely, to help him and lead him away from his sin. Or how about throwing the men trying to help him under the bus or into the wood chipper? How about when he threatened pastors in the area that he would dismantle their churches “brick by brick” for competing for customers? I could literally go on for pages. Many people tried to help him. Many lost their livelihood for their efforts. This unrepentant, manipulative man is now UNLEASHED on more trusting Christians because the few remaining battered shepherds at MHC won’t summon the courage and take the stand to say what we already know, which is that Driscoll is biblically unqualified to be a pastor.

    If Driscoll announced his permanent retirement from ministry tomorrow you wouldn’t see another post about him – on any blog. His sins as a private citizen are between him and God and everyone has more than enough grace and empathy to understand and respect that. But he hasn’t, has he? He resigned in a particularly weasely way to avoid being declared disqualified. He did that because he plans on returning to the pulpit without any restoration. For heaven’s sake he lacked the decency to even say goodbye to his flock. What kind of shepherd does these kinds of things? Please put down your podcasts and pick up a bible. This man is not a shepherd, he’s a wolf. Blogs like this are invaluable as they serve to warn people against such abuse by PASTORS, not civilians/congregants. The posts are all fact based and contain no hate towards Driscoll but sincere, heart wrenching concern for future victims. Maybe you could show some love and concern for them? If Driscoll wants people to stop telling the truth about him in the press, let him retire. He was making well over $900,000 per year on his MH pay alone. Over a million with his side gigs. He can afford retirement.

  39. Deb wrote:

    Hopefully, the information we share here will spare some of our readers the pain of being in a spiritually abusive church.

    Or help readers who are in them find their way out. Like our family. I’m sure there are more like me here who are very, very grateful.

  40. Former Fundy wrote:

    Whatever happened to trusting the Spirit’s work in the lives of the church people?

    Their faith and trust is in their own systems based on their own interpretations of their own versions of the Bible. They fired the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

  41. Jenny wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    Hopefully, the information we share here will spare some of our readers the pain of being in a spiritually abusive church.
    Or help readers who are in them find their way out. Like our family. I’m sure there are more like me here who are very, very grateful.

    This is so true. Mega-churches draw much attention to their positive metrics but even the fastest growing have huge back doors they never discuss. The people exiting through those doors are often confused, hurt and some even badly abused. As enterprising manipulators start figuring out they can abuse the word of God to rake in tens to hundreds of millions of dollars tax free every year, more unscrupulous people will enter this “industry”. Also, good men who started out in ministry for pure reasons can become perverted by the sudden and staggering amounts of cash now thrown their way. The number of people profoundly hurt by these places will continue to multiply and possibly exponentially as these churches perfect the McChurch Franchise system. TWW not only helps families like mine and Jenny’s, they provide a resource that we can point others to so that they can be helped as well. It gives victims a voice. It gives them direction. Most of all it gives them HOPE. Thanks.

  42. You know I saw MD online and I think ten minutes into one of his sermons my tooldar went off and I never trusted the guy. I took it on the chin several times saying this guy was a tool. I felt the same way about doug phillip$ and Bob Lar$on, and Bill Gothard$ as well. Now I used to like John Piper for a bit, I bought into the entire grandfather routine, but after the god ordained tornadoes and other such nonsense. I actually respect Joel Osteen more than the other folks because you know what you are getting right up front.

    I prefer the E churches here and at Spiritual Sounding Board and at PP with real pastors like Michael. May these tribes increase. The above in the first paragraph. May they grow up and get a real job.

  43. The thing is, if Gerry & Sherry Breshears just followed the rest of the advice you posted, a pastor wouldn’t need to worry about outside bloggers. IF he had been accountable, in-touch with his congregation, etc. no member in the church would have bothered with bad gossip in outside blogs. It was the internal rumblings that caused the fault lines to show and the leader’s responses to the internal rumblings that caused the collapse.

    RHE, you two ladies and others had been pointing out the problems at Mars Hill for years, but it was when the former pastors and staff members began to speak out that anything changed. Up until that point, the bloggers who tried to point out where all this was heading were inundated with Mars Hill supporters who were defending MD as a wonderful leader and being called gossips or bitter. So, really, it wasn’t outside bloggers that did much at all, rather, it was the “people who were thrown under the bus” that eventually overturned the bus that was Mars Hill Seattle.

  44. mickey johnson wrote:

    It is sad that everyone turned on him and did not help him in his time of troubles… Everyone sins, EVERYONE! We all need forgiveness and grace from God.

    OK, let's review who overturned the "bus" that was Mars Hill. It was the pastors who upset the leadership of Mars Hill (both Former and current up until the dying weeks of Mars Hill), not bloggers. They may have sinned too, but what happened to them? Did they receive forgiveness and grace from Mars Hill leadership? Nope, they were "thrown under the bus" as Mark Driscoll once bragged.

    Even if Mark D. had preached in the tongues of Angels, but had not love, all his sermons would be clanging symbols. Did he love? Who? His staff members, no, he treated them terribly if even a perceived slight was detected. His congregation? No, he exited the stage is such a way to fully minimize all contact with his congregation. His blog readers? No, you don't deceive the people you love, you don't hire ghost writers, yet pretend you wrote the book, you don't buy your way onto the NYT bestseller list and pretend your book got there by itself. So, you like his sermons. I like Delft China, but it isn't of God, just very pretty.

  45. Jenny wrote:

    @ mickey johnson:
    Sockpuppet?

    Or possibly a satirist – we get them here from time to time. I’m not certain, but I think “mickey” is, indeed, parodying the Driscoll fanboys.

    There are a couple of clues:
     The word “haters” – parodists often use that as a code for “no, I’m not being serious”.
     Calling Driscoll a great “pastor” while claiming to have watched his sermons on iTunes (or FaceTube). That’s quite funny when you think about it.
     The past tense – “I found Mark to be a GREAT preacher and pastor”; but he’s not any more…

    A good parodist, inevitably, often looks like an idiot. For the time being, I’ll assume “mickey” is the former, and extend a cautious welcome!

  46. Actually, I propose the adoption of a new phrase:

    iTune Pastor

    This refers to a “pastor” whose material you buy because it amuses you. You’ve never met him, and you have no relationship with him – nor ever will. But for some reason you still call him a “pastor”.

    It can sit alongside the Scott Adams (of “Dilbert” fame) phrase “bungee boss”, meaning a manager who is dropped into a project or department from above, and stays for just long enough to change everything around before he/she bounces out again to be reassigned elsewhere.

  47. LT wrote:

    TWW not only helps families like mine and Jenny’s, they provide a resource that we can point others to so that they can be helped as well. It gives victims a voice. It gives them direction. Most of all it gives them HOPE. Thanks.

    I would love to know how you stumbled upon our blog. Grateful that we have been of help. 🙂

  48. Val wrote:

    So, really, it wasn’t outside bloggers that did much at all, rather, it was the “people who were thrown under the bus” that eventually overturned the bus that was Mars Hill Seattle.

    Absolutely! Hopefully, a lesson has been learned. Congregations must learn to use their God-given gift of discernment. They need to incline their ear to that still small voice.

  49. Deb wrote:

    … but I have no doubt that there are Driscollites out there who are so loyal they will follow him off a cliff.

    I have no doubt you’re right, sadly. But if we can by any means save some, humour may have a part to play… or it may just be that “mickey” is as exasperated as we are and needed to let off some steam.

  50. In other news, food-insulin-induced hypoglycaemia doesn’t half cause mood-swings. Quite funny really 🙂 The **** it’s funny! I can’t go on – I’m trapped in unemployment till the day I die of diabetic complications 🙁 But I like the way I can call jelly-babies “medicine” 🙂

  51. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The **** it’s funny! I can’t go on – I’m trapped in unemployment till the day I die of diabetic complications

    What a @#$%* disease. I don’t know what doesn’t half cause mood swings means exactly, but if people do not rail at stuff like this, whether for themselves or for others, they have no heart left in them at all.
    So while you cuss at your situation from over there I will cuss at your situation from here. That is the only halfway sane thing to do.

  52. Nancy wrote:

    I don’t know what “doesn’t half cause mood swings” means exactly…

    Evidently that’s a UK idiom. To say that A doesn’t half cause B means that A wholly causes B, and in a big way. That is, low blood-sugar causes mood swings. Hence the alternating 🙂 and 🙁 . On reflection, of course, low blood-sugar probably leads to mood swings regardless of how it came about.

    Unemployment is a @#$%* disease, though, and I agree that it is more than halfway sane to spit venom at it. It is an ongoing frustration of mine that not enough Christians here are angry about it.

  53. Deb, nice job on the breakdown and commentary on the Breshears’ memo. A lot of what’s in it has already been covered in the comments too, but one thing they said resonated with me: “Sound theology … can never replace love and service”.

  54. Deb wrote:

    @ XianJaneway:
    Dee and her family are fine. One of her cute pug dogs has to go to the vet for some tests.

    Oh big love going out to the poorly pug. So stressful to have a poorly pet.(I love my dogs ridiculously). Get well soon little dog XXX

  55. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    The remark about the wicked witch bloggers is very telling about what he really thinks.
    He reminds me of my ex-husband. Yes, he was wrong to have an affair, but gee, it wouldn’t have happened if I’d had dinner on the table at precisely 6 pm every night.  :eyeroll:

    Oh of course! Well, I’m sure you know this, but what’s the quickest way to a man’s heart?

  56. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Unemployment is a @#$%* disease, though, and I agree that it is more than halfway sane to spit venom at it.

    I meant diabetes and its complications, but you are right about unemployment also. I can barely endure retirement, and that is not even in the same category as what you are talking about.

  57. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In other news, food-insulin-induced hypoglycaemia doesn’t half cause mood-swings.

    I’ve been an insulin dependent diabetic for about 20 years now. Mood swings have not been a problem except for the very few times my glucose level got low enough that intervention was required. Apparently in such a state I can be very disagreeable. But constant surveillance is required.

  58. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    For example, “Leaders have a dark side”: I’m not sure this is true, but if this is true, how can Breshears say that a “team” is the solution to the problem?

    I entertained my legally-blind daughter and preschooler grandchildren by reading the “dark side” quote in a Vader-ventilator-voice. I may have changed or added a few things, such as “Uh– Doc– I’m afraid that while I was in Ethiopia filming a global fundrais…. Er… uh…Lovingly Serving The Local Pastors… I may have picked up some “sin things” in the ol’ G I tract!”
    “Sin things”!?!?
    For every Jedi, the dark side would be things like anger, hatred, fear, and the annihilating of entire planets.. For every Leader: brokenness, great strengths, weaknesses, flaws, and *sin things* the dark side is.

  59. dee wrote:

    Deb,
    I want to know… Where’s the money from our blogging?!! If we find it, maybe we, too, could hire security like all the big, celebrity pastors.

    Of course, it’s not a money-maker for you or virtually anyone else in blogging, especially sites like this. There are also the enormous opportunity costs that you the bloggers must confront when you realize what sorts of things you might have been able to do if you used all the time expended on the blogs in other pursuits.

    Hey, with all that time freed up by dropping this “money-making” blog, you and Dee might have had time to slap together a few seminary degrees, land a position as a professor of Systematic Theology at a place like Western, ingratiate yourself to the nearest malignantly narcissistic celebrity-hungry pastor, and co-author three or four books with him and really rack up the dough.

  60. Tim wrote:

    one thing they said resonated with me: “Sound theology … can never replace love and service”.

    The idea that theology can never replace love (and service) resonates with me too. But of course – and I suspect we’re of similar mind here – theology that pushes out love and service is not sound theology.

  61. Off topic, but thought some folks here might be interested to know that Jeff S. who used to comment here, is getting married today. 🙂

  62. On a less frivolous note, it being close to bedtime in Scotland:

    I don’t know a great deal about Mr Breshears, though if he indeed co-authored some content with Driscoll, his post is missing a small but important element. Rather than repeat what the hated bloggers have been saying for many years, as though it were a new lesson that he has hewn out of the rock for us, I’d rather have hoped he would have at least provided some explanation as to why he was one of the Driscoll orbiters who didn’t seem to see any of this coming.

  63. @ Hester:

    In an unfortunate quirk of timing, your post appeared while I was in the middle of commenting – I would never have wished even to look as though I were calling Jeff’s wedding frivolous! If, as I take it, you are in contact (and perhaps attending the event?), please give them both my best wishes!

  64. On the topic of lessons learned from Mars Hill, here’s a really heartening statement of repentance from Pastor Arnold Yesman, formally of the MH eldership team:

    To Mark Driscoll’s many critics out there, and in particular, those of his critics whose motive is a godly anger and zeal for Jesus’ church: I have something to say.

    Mark Driscoll was not the problem with Mars Hill. We, the elders – the team of men charged with leading the church – we were the problem.

    Why else is the church disintegrating after one man leaves? One man can’t destroy a church of thousands. 1 John 2:19 speaks of those who “went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us”. When it came to it, Mark Driscoll didn’t face the music like a “man”. He didn’t practice what he had preached to us, or set an example and walk through a process of restoration as required by the biblical eldership of the church. He ran away. In the end, after all this time, it turned out he was never one of us at all.

    And we never saw it. We sat at his feet and applauded him. When he turned on Paul Petry and Bent Meyer, we didn’t just applaud – we joined in. Whenever his character flaws – his anger, his lack of love – manifested, we pretended it didn’t matter, because he was so “gifted” in the pulpit. But in truth, he wasn’t gifted with the pulpit – he was simply gifted with a microphone. We were so dazzled by the outward success we felt were able to share in, that we couldn’t see the difference. Although, many of you could.

    When push came to shove; when it came to standing up for what was right – biblically right – we were cowards.

    No, we weren’t cowards. We were “women”. And please, before you react to that, notice the quotes. We weren’t true women of God – many of them were standing up to Mark Driscoll even while we refused to. I mean that we ourselves, the leading “men” of Mars Hill Church, were acting out the very characteristics we had always projected onto “women”, thus denying them any role in leadership. We said that women were weak and naive. We cowered behind each other and hid from Mark Driscoll’s fits of rage. We said that women were emotional and easily deceived. We were seduced by the heady emotion of Mark Driscoll’s cheerleading for “masculinity”, and were deceived into thinking we were strong heroes of the faith.

    And even now, some of us – too many – are trying to continue as if it was all just a sad mistake, that we can’t understand. But we do understand – only too well. We were the problem. I am the problem. “Sorry” isn’t much but, for what it is worth, I am sorry.

  65. Hmm… I notice my alter-ego has been posting again. A very heartening statement of repentance – at least, it would have been, if my alter-ego hadn’t made it up.

  66. Dee, i am thinking of/praying for Lilly, and of course, for you. This is such a hard thing to go through.

  67. @ dee,

    Mrs. Muff and me know what it is to love little hounds just like they’re family. May Almighty God watch over and protect you all.

  68. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Hmm… I notice my alter-ego has been posting again. A very heartening statement of repentance – at least, it would have been, if my alter-ego hadn’t made it up.

    Well, we can still hope that Nice will have some influence on all of the yes-women…or men…

  69. Oh, Dee, I am so sorry about the poor dog. They just trust us, and then things we can’t do anything much about come along, and neither they nor we can solve it. How sad for both.

  70. Thank you all for your kind comments. It has been a bit of a hard week since I had some other medical issues with my elderly parents.

    Cancer is difficult for us since it brings back memories of our daughter’s brain tumor-something that you never quite get over.

    Since we have pure bred rescue pug dogs, all of whom were probably born in puppy mills (especially Lilly) there is a higher risk for inbred medical problems. Each time I take one into our family, I know I am setting myself up for potential health issues and shortened life spans.

    So this sort of sadness is expected but it is still hard. I got Lilly as a baby. She was part of a puppy mill bust-50 pugs dogs- many of whom were on death’s door. Lilly’s mother died and I took Lilly on, feeding her puppy formula since she was about 4 weeks old. So I look at her as my baby although now she is almost 8.

    We will have all of the information on Wednesday and will make the hard decisions at that point. One thing for sure, Lilly has had a good life with us and she knows she is loved as do Petunia and Tulip.

  71. @ dee:

    My sympathies are with you, I know how very difficult it has. We have adopted rescued Boston Terriers and had one about Lillie’s deteriorate with Cushings who we had to make a painful decision about just a few months ago. It’s the price you pay for the amount of joy they bring to your life.

  72. dee wrote:

    She was part of a puppy mill bust-50 pugs dogs- many of whom were on death’s door.

    Oh boy, does this sound familiar… I have two border collies with the same history. Some puppy mill just crankin’ ’em out, selling them out of a van on the side of the road until they were busted. We took two – general health has been OK once we took care of a few things, but weak hindquarters from the inbreeding.

    But as JeffT said, it’s the price we pay. I am a dog person, usually with 3-4 at a time – and most of them rescues. I’ve had to bury many old friends here over the last decades. It always hurts. It’s always worth it. But they have a great time here out in the country on our little farm carved out of the woods. If I were a dog, I’d want to be here…

  73. Nice Kekbulb wrote:

    On the topic of lessons learned from Mars Hill, here’s a really heartening statement of repentance from Pastor Arnold Yesman, formally of the MH eldership team:

    Pastor Yeoman’s statement is a perfect statement that shows the former MH leadership now fully understands what went wrong and their own role in that.

    Too sad that that’s only wishful thinking – they’ll never own it (even if they privately understand), because there’s too much at stake here – their self-image, well-paid jobs, speaking engagements at conferences, book contracts.

    As Eagle correctly said, MD should never have been a pastor. And neither should the bunch of cowards who never had the courage to stand up to the bully, all the while talking about how manly dudes they were, unlike women. Well, it would have been enough for them to show some ordinary human decency and courage – no special manliness and “Gospelly Godliness™” required.

  74. dee wrote:

    Thank you all for your kind comments. It has been a bit of a hard week since I had some other medical issues with my elderly parents. Cancer is difficult for us since it brings back memories of our daughter’s brain tumor-something that you never quite get over. Since we have pure bred rescue pug dogs, all of whom were probably born in puppy mills (especially Lilly) there is a higher risk for inbred medical problems. Each time I take one into our family, I know I am setting myself up for potential health issues and shortened life spans. So this sort of sadness is expected but it is still hard. I got Lilly as a baby. She was part of a puppy mill bust-50 pugs dogs- many of whom were on death’s door. Lilly’s mother died and I took Lilly on, feeding her puppy formula since she was about 4 weeks old. So I look at her as my baby although now she is almost 8. We will have all of the information on Wednesday and will make the hard decisions at that point. One thing for sure, Lilly has had a good life with us and she knows she is loved as do Petunia and Tulip.

    Dee, I am so sorry about your sweet dog. I am a cat person myself, except for pugs who I find to be the sweetest (& silliest) of all dogs. They really creep into your heart in a big way. My prayers are with you, & with your dear wee friend, who has surely been blessed to have you as her mama.I wish I could hug you from here.

  75. @ Deb and Val and Nick

    Nope, I am just a man who learned a lot from Mark. I find it amusing that you would literally dissect my comment and critique it to the Nth degree. I never met Mark nor have I been to MH. So, no, I do not have a relationship with him. Therefor I have nothing vested in this. I live in Cannon Falls Minnesota and stumbled upon his sermons through a “listeners also liked” feature.

    So.. I am NOT a satirist. (nor a sock puppet) I am not a fan-boy. I am honestly, just a guy who feels incredibly bad for Mark and sad for all of the people who he led to Jesus. Pride and Power went to his head, no doubt. Some issues and problems take awhile to self discover and admit to. I think that is where Mark is at now… I pray that he will find his way back. No one admits to their faults right away and it is a human reaction to turn and fight back when you are attacked.

    I am not saying his actions should go unpunished or be left unresolved. Mark needs to seek forgiveness from God and the people he hurt here on earth.

    I happened on this blog because I was searching for news regarding what happened within MH… What I have found is a ton of people throwing him under the bus. A ton of people vilifying him, a ton of people who are NOT forgiving. (or at least talking that way)

    If Mark does indeed just go away… the world has truly lost a great teacher. A man who can illustrate Gods word is a funny, challenging and reflective way…

    @ Nick Bulbeck:

  76. mickey johnson wrote:

    If Mark does indeed just go away… the world has truly lost a great teacher. A man who can illustrate Gods word is a funny, challenging and reflective way

    …You left out vulgar and erroneous. 🙁

  77. mickey johnson wrote:

    What I have found is a ton of people throwing him under the bus.

    Where he will meet many many people he threw under the bus… deliberately, & without mercy. MD is reaping what he has sown & it is a lesson, for sure.

  78. mickey johnson wrote:

    f Mark does indeed just go away… the world has truly lost a great teacher.

    I think you epitomize the reason that Driscoll needed to be exposed for what he has turned out to be. Do you think it is possible to overlook the fruit of his own life, and accept his teaching as being great at the same time? I think that would be interesting to discuss, in light of the revelations about him and his church.

    One thing that has troubled me about the whole affair is how the personal fruit that has been revealed in these men’s lives is often over looked by the same people who insist on inspecting the fruit in other peoples lives. Not saying you are doing that, but just wondering if you think that is possible or even desirable to do with someone’s own teacher?

  79. mickey johnson wrote:

    I find it amusing that you would literally dissect my comment and critique it to the Nth degree.

    Why? This is a blog and the only thing we get to discuss is the written word unless you call me on our TWW phone line.I take what people write seriously. I certainly hope those who comment also take their own words seriously.

    mickey johnson wrote:

    I am honestly, just a guy who feels incredibly bad for Mark and sad for all of the people who he led to Jesus.

    We have a Prime Directive on the blog that we take very seriously. We watch each comment to see if the person shows equal concern and compassion for those who have been deeply wounded by a ministry. I do not see that concern in your comment which means you feel far more concern for a man who hurt many, many people than you care for the people that he hurt.

    mickey johnson wrote:

    If Mark does indeed just go away… the world has truly lost a great teacher.

    You do have something vested in Mark Driscoll. This comment says it all. A great teacher?? Good night! Great teachers do not need to use Result Source or plagiarize as documented by Warren Throckmorton.

    mickey johnson wrote:

    What I have found is a ton of people throwing him under the bus.

    There is something very interesting going on. I have noticed a few people attempting to downplay the problems with Driscoll by utilizing an interesting tactic that I have not seen used before. Take your “thrown under the bus” comment. It is well known that Driscoll used this comment to refer to people in his church saying by God’s grace there would be a huge pile of bodies under the bus before he was through.

    It gets turned around back at those who have been raising the red flags for years or had been thrown under the bus. Show me where one person on this blog said anything like that.

    I am watching this tactic very, very carefully and I will not let people get away with it. In fact, if I see this used a few more times, there will be a blog post on it and this comment will be featured prominently.

  80. mickey johnson wrote:

    @ Deb and Val and Nick
    Nope, I am just a man who learned a lot from Mark. I find it amusing that you would literally dissect my comment and critique it to the Nth degree. I never met Mark nor have I been to MH. So, no, I do not have a relationship with him. Therefor I have nothing vested in this. I live in Cannon Falls Minnesota and stumbled upon his sermons through a “listeners also liked” feature.
    So.. I am NOT a satirist. (nor a sock puppet) I am not a fan-boy. I am honestly, just a guy who feels incredibly bad for Mark and sad for all of the people who he led to Jesus. Pride and Power went to his head, no doubt. Some issues and problems take awhile to self discover and admit to. I think that is where Mark is at now… I pray that he will find his way back. No one admits to their faults right away and it is a human reaction to turn and fight back when you are attacked.
    I am not saying his actions should go unpunished or be left unresolved. Mark needs to seek forgiveness from God and the people he hurt here on earth.
    I happened on this blog because I was searching for news regarding what happened within MH… What I have found is a ton of people throwing him under the bus. A ton of people vilifying him, a ton of people who are NOT forgiving. (or at least talking that way)
    If Mark does indeed just go away… the world has truly lost a great teacher. A man who can illustrate Gods word is a funny, challenging and reflective way…
    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Assuming you are real, Mickey, I want you to consider the possibility that MD was never a teacher of the Word in the first place and that the fruits of his ministry revealed that he was all along a wolf and that you have been duped.

  81. dee wrote:

    There is something very interesting going on. I have noticed a few people attempting to downplay the problems with Driscoll by utilizing an interesting tactic that I have not seen used before. Take your “thrown under the bus” comment. It is well known that Driscoll used this comment to refer to people in his church saying by God’s grace there would be a huge pile of bodies under the bus before he was through.
    It gets turned around back at those who have been raising the red flags for years or had been thrown under the bus. Show me where one person on this blog said anything like that.
    I am watching this tactic very, very carefully and I will not let people get away with it. In fact, if I see this used a few more times, there will be a blog post on it and this comment will be featured prominently.

    It is astonishing, truly amazing, that the very comment Driscoll made, when he chuckled from pulpit as he spoke of dead bodies piling up under the “bus” of Mars Hill, would now be used as a tool against critics who call him to task for that comment and related behavior.

    It’s such that it makes one genuinely wonder if Mickey is still, in spite of his protests, not just an unusually clever parody. How could anyone become so benighted that they wouldn’t see the irony of such a turn of phrase in reference to Driscoll?

  82. “That is why ministry and leadership in the New Testament is always a team thing. ” Oh, you mean it’s NOT a set of re-designed by-laws to incorporate power into one pastor’s hands? 😉

    As to the pot-shot that this (mostly level-headed) article took at bloggers, I would like to point out that every point stated in the post encompasses what those “gossiping” bloggers were saying for years, so I’m not sure what the post is trying to complain about. I suppose one is only allowed to call out problematic behavior via internet if one is a highly visible pastor doing it through his/her official church site? Please.

  83. Doug wrote:

    think you epitomize the reason that Driscoll needed to be exposed for what he has turned out to be. Do you think it is possible to overlook the fruit of his own life, and accept his teaching as being great at the same time? I think that would be interesting to discuss,

    you have nailed the single biggest problem in evangelicalism. Excusing rotten fruit because they like the speaker or think he has correct doctrine. Or, they simply redefine what is good fruit.

    Yes. it needs to be discussed. But it quite controversial.

  84. Law Prof wrote:

    It is astonishing, truly amazing, that the very comment Driscoll made, when he chuckled from pulpit as he spoke of dead bodies piling up under the “bus” of Mars Hill, would now be used as a tool against critics who call him to task for that comment and related behavior.

    It is only astonishing to people who have not spent a lot of time around those with personality disorders like narcissism or sociopathy. it is truly amazing how they can come to define the world for those around them through their bold personalities and charisma. Position often masks it for a long while. I call it the white coat syndrome.

    Annd, these personality types have a real knack for sucking people in and then controlling them without them really realizing it for a long time. it is pure deception.

    I maintain that those who were close by Mark Driscoll all those years will need lots of debriefing and serious therapy. their normal is not normal. and it is one reason why I do not put a lot of stock in anything they have to say right now.

  85. Lydia wrote:

    you have nailed the single biggest problem in evangelicalism. Excusing rotten fruit because they like the speaker or think he has correct doctrine. Or, they simply redefine what is good fruit.

    Lydia wrote:

    their normal is not normal. and it is one reason why I do not put a lot of stock in anything they have to say right now

    These are such valuable insights, the Orwellian language games played by MD, & those like him, leave people in a separate reality where nothing means what it normally means. So very disorientating. People need debriefing out of these systems. In a way being a woman & looking at Driscoll’s ‘study’ on Esther makes this easier to see, as I think his personal redefinitions of passages were less well disguised than usual & it provided a crack we could see through into what really lies underneath.

  86. Doug wrote:

    Do you think it is possible to overlook the fruit of his own life, and accept his teaching as being great at the same time?

    I’m with Lydia here; you have hit the nail squarely by the horns. It has become almost a cultural norm to equate performance behind a microphone with greatness of teaching. Driscoll’s final act as a part of MH – to jack in his membership and run away, rather than submit to church discipline – shows that he simply did not believe at least a part of what he taught.

    As for those he supposedly led to Jesus – well, actually, I don’t know how many he led to Jesus, but there is at least a chance that the number is zero. Especially in recent years. In any congregation where the preacher is the brand, said preacher is never to be found out on the streets or even in the foyer interacting with people. All the work of selling the idea of church and inviting along of non-Christians is done by the congregation themselves. The celebrity preacher then delivers the entertaining talk. People may respond; if they are do, they are almost strapped bodily to the backs of some cell-group leader, and woe betide that leader if the “new Christian” misses a meeting.

    Now, the whole earth, and all its inhabitants, are the Lord’s. He can speak through anyone and anything. At least 50% of Blog_Queens here resident were “led to Jesus” through Star Trek! But Deeb’s faith is not dependent on Star Trek. So, it’s not inconceivable that a person might hear Driscoll performing, and be drawn to this Jesus who is referenced during the performance. But if they’ve really been drawn to Jesus, they will have noted Driscoll’s character and behaviour, and made a clear distinction.

  87. I have acknowledged that Mark has led out of pride and personal power.
    I have acknowledged that Mark has hurt people.
    I have acknowledged that Mark has abused is stature.
    I have acknowledged that Mark should seek forgiveness from God.
    I have acknowledged that Mark should seek forgiveness and possible restitution from the people he has wronged and hurt.
    I have acknowledged that Mark should pay a penalty for his plagiarism.
    I WILL acknowledge that Mark needs time away from leading and teaching to realign his heart with God. If that is not done, he should never teach/preach again.

    I will again post this in this blog, that I feel bad for him and his family. I fell bad for the people he hurt. I am SAD that this is ending this way. Mark was a great preacher. I am sad that he was led astray by Satan.

    I am going to say this for the last time. (because no one is acknowledging the reason for my post) The world needs to be more forgiving in general. People are quick to judge and convict and not so much into forgiveness. The world needs to be more helpful and kind. The world needs to be more like Jesus wants us to be…

    Why don’t we all spend 1/2 the amount of time vilifying and pray for those affected and Marks recovery. (But I am sure that is to much to ask from this group)

  88. mickey johnson wrote:

    (But I am sure that is to much to ask from this group)

    Dude, your last sentence cancels out all you said before it, do you realize that?

    Let’s all be more like Jesus….but that’s too much to ask from you people.

    So, what is your point? Why make the assumption that people here have NOT prayed for Mark and the people he has hurt? How do you know that there are not people here who have prayed for Mark Driscoll every day? Maybe they are praying for his salvation, in the broad sense of the word.

    Maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. Possible?

  89. Something else I don’t understand: MD believed that God was in control of everything. I assume his followers did / do too.

    So why, when he crashes and burns, are the bloggers blamed for it and God is not given credit for it? If his theology is correct, then God is doing this to him. I mean, that’s what he believes and has taught, right?

  90. mickey johnson wrote:

    Why don’t we all spend 1/2 the amount of time vilifying

    Vilify means to write about in an abusively disparaging manner. So, why don’t you outline what you mean by this? Talking about plagiarism, Result Source, the Song of Solomon fiasco in Scotland, the Brierly interview, the Petrys, the Meyers, the Smiths, Janet Mefferd, William Wallace and women as “p***** homes, etc.” Does vilify mean to tell the truth?

    Quick to judge? We have been writing about him for 5 1/2 years. That is hardly quick. Quick to convict? Did he, or did he not plagiarize? How do you know we haven’t forgiven him? But, just because we forgive him doesn’t mean we should overlook the nonsense which still exists like the secrecy over his salary and the usage of money in Mars Hill church.

    Also, I have spent hours and hours and hours, talking and supporting those hurt by Driscoll’s ministry. So have others on this blog so save your lectures on prayer and concern.

    I do not think that Driscoll was a *great* preacher. Great preachers do not act like he did over a prolonged period of time. Driscoll was led astray by his own personality, sins and character flaws. I am sure Satan fanned the flames but Satan was not the only one involved here.

    I do not buy what you are writing here. I can tell by your comment which is an odd presentation of “Yes I *acknowledge*that things were done but now shut up.” It sounds more like *no lo contendere* than a compassionate concern for the horrors imposed on some folks by this supposedly *great* preacher.

    I believe that there is a pattern developing in the *rehab Driscoll* movement and I, for one, am not going to fall for it. He had 14 years to wise up. He didn’t. IMO, he got worse as the years went by. He should not be in a pulpit again.,

    I believe that it is helpful and kind to many people to expose the underbelly of some of these *great* preachers so that they do not get hurt now or in the future.

    Also, as for this group, your sarcasm is noted and that is what lead me to believe that you don’t really care about the victims and those on this blog who were hurt by Driscoll. So, go elsewhere with your image building comments about Driscoll “the Great.”

  91. @ Doug:
    Yes but as you can see from Mickey, Driscoll was a *great* preacher and therefore Satan is doing this, not God.

  92. @ Doug:
    i am very suspicious of Mickey and some others like him who are out and about on the web. I believe there is a Rehab Driscoll movement which coincides with his newly released website. This is no coincidence.

    Way too many people hitched their star to his bus and are having trouble since the bus broke down.

  93. @ mickey johnson:
    Mickey Johnson, I’m sorry someone you admire so much fell from their station. It obviously has really hurt you and you don’t like people commenting on Driscoll’s disruption. Maybe don’t read those articles on him or Mars Hills self destruction for a while?

  94. @ mickey johnson:

    Since you seem to be in the know about Driscoll, can you point me to where he has displayed repentance and made amends for his actions? I’d be interested to know that he has done this. I have not heard any of Driscoll’s former employees and friends in ministry mention that he has come to them seeking anything . . .

  95. Oh the website…I love to read about Pastor Mark’s special kindness towards abused women. I hear he has special gifting towards the underside of buses too. There is no end to this insanity in sight, is there?

  96. sad observer wrote:

    “That is why ministry and leadership in the New Testament is always a team thing. ” Oh, you mean it’s NOT a set of re-designed by-laws to incorporate power into one pastor’s hands?
    As to the pot-shot that this (mostly level-headed) article took at bloggers, I would like to point out that every point stated in the post encompasses what those “gossiping” bloggers were saying for years, so I’m not sure what the post is trying to complain about. I suppose one is only allowed to call out problematic behavior via internet if one is a highly visible pastor doing it through his/her official church site? Please.

    The article is downright silly when you consider that as you say, the writer confirms virtually everything that bloggers have been saying about Driscoll
    Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    @ mickey johnson:
    Mickey Johnson, I’m sorry someone you admire so much fell from their station. It obviously has really hurt you and you don’t like people commenting on Driscoll’s disruption. Maybe don’t read those articles on him or Mars Hills self destruction for a while?

    Yopu make good points.

    Maybe Mickey could also just stop idolizing a man and start worshiping Jesus. The Bible has some strong words to say about those who trust man, in fact it says they’re cursed. Wonder if Mickey has read those verses or cares what they have to say?

  97. sad observer wrote:

    “That is why ministry and leadership in the New Testament is always a team thing. ” Oh, you mean it’s NOT a set of re-designed by-laws to incorporate power into one pastor’s hands?
    As to the pot-shot that this (mostly level-headed) article took at bloggers, I would like to point out that every point stated in the post encompasses what those “gossiping” bloggers were saying for years, so I’m not sure what the post is trying to complain about. I suppose one is only allowed to call out problematic behavior via internet if one is a highly visible pastor doing it through his/her official church site? Please.

    The article is downright silly when you consider that while he confirms virtually everything that bloggers have been saying about Driscoll, he chooses to condemn the bloggers for pursuing the profits and not himself, even though he co-wrote four books with Driscoll, presumably with every intention of racking up the profits.

  98. dee wrote:

    @ Doug:
    i am very suspicious of Mickey and some others like him who are out and about on the web. I believe there is a Rehab Driscoll movement which coincides with his newly released website. This is no coincidence.
    Way too many people hitched their star to his bus and are having trouble since the bus broke down.

    This is because they are showing signs of idolatry. That will always get you in trouble.

  99. Doug wrote:

    Something else I don’t understand: MD believed that God was in control of everything. I assume his followers did / do too.
    So why, when he crashes and burns, are the bloggers blamed for it and God is not given credit for it? If his theology is correct, then God is doing this to him. I mean, that’s what he believes and has taught, right?

    I doubt very much that he was ever a committed Calvinist. I believe that Calvinism specifically and Christianity generally were convenient vehicles for him to get where he wanted to go and achieve what he wanted to achieve. I don’t think it ever had anything to do with consistency, integrity or truth.

  100. mickey johnson wrote:

    I have acknowledged that Mark has led out of pride and personal power.
    I have acknowledged that Mark has hurt people.
    I have acknowledged that Mark has abused is stature.
    I have acknowledged that Mark should seek forgiveness from God.
    I have acknowledged that Mark should seek forgiveness and possible restitution from the people he has wronged and hurt.
    I have acknowledged that Mark should pay a penalty for his plagiarism.
    I WILL acknowledge that Mark needs time away from leading and teaching to realign his heart with God. If that is not done, he should never teach/preach again.
    I will again post this in this blog, that I feel bad for him and his family. I fell bad for the people he hurt. I am SAD that this is ending this way. Mark was a great preacher. I am sad that he was led astray by Satan.
    I am going to say this for the last time. (because no one is acknowledging the reason for my post) The world needs to be more forgiving in general. People are quick to judge and convict and not so much into forgiveness. The world needs to be more helpful and kind. The world needs to be more like Jesus wants us to be…
    Why don’t we all spend 1/2 the amount of time vilifying and pray for those affected and Marks recovery. (But I am sure that is to much to ask from this group)

    Mickey – You sure are slow to forgive these people and quick to judge them.

  101. Doug

    I had cut back the length of your quote before I saw this comment. Do you want me to delete it entirely?

  102. dee wrote:

    Doug

    I had cut back the length of your quote before I sasw this comment. Do you want me to delete it entirely?

    Yes please. I don’t want you to get in trouble because I copied and pasted from the MD website. Plus, I missed your header. Sorry about that. Have a Merry Christmas!

  103. @ Doug:

    First of all, let him try suing people for fair use. He would be laughed out of court and made to pay for the other person’s attorney fees.

    Secondly, you did absolutely nothing wrong. Driscoll acts like a bully. He gets to plagiarize with impunity and then says he is going after others? This does not look like is a repentant man

  104. @ Albuquerque Blue:
    The Purpose Driven Life dude. Another mega church guy but at least he doesn’t take a salary from the church because he makes so much money from his book. he also gives away a large percentage of his personal money.

  105. Pingback: Farewell Mars Hill . . . Lessons Learned? | The...

  106. You know what? This blog is silly and frankly just out to persecute and harm Mark Driscoll. NOTHING good will come of this and you all are wasting your time, truly. You all are inconsistent and truly hypocritical, just like I am as a Christian. You are picking and choosing what you want to respond to with NO attitude of Grace or forgiveness…

    I have brought this up sooo many times and NO ONE addresses it. Someday MD will seek forgiveness (or not) and God and people who try and live through grace will forgive him. I am sure there are people out there that will try relentlessly to get him to see his errors and help him through his time of trouble… That is what Christians do, that is what God wants us to do.

  107. I have not read the entire Bible, but I am working on it. I worship Jesus and my only idol is GOD. I have only said that Mark is a great teacher… that’s it…

    @ Law Prof:

  108. I have not seen any attempts by him to repent or seek forgiveness. But people who live by grace will be eager to forgive, hopefully that is EVERYONE in this blog…

    @ Bridget:

  109. dee wrote:

    @ Albuquerque Blue:
    The Purpose Driven Life dude. Another mega church guy but at least he doesn’t take a salary from the church because he makes so much money from his book. he also gives away a large percentage of his personal money.

    I am really trying to wrap my head around this. Rick Warren preached last sermon at Mars Hill? He, of “transforming the church” fame, who is so good at soundbite Christianity? Even a broken tree bears fruit? Ok, so what does that mean when it comes to Mark Driscoll and what passed there over the years?

    These guys are brazen.

  110. mickey johnson wrote:

    Unreal!!!!!

    @ Beakerj:

    Hey Mickey, I think you need to realise that MD has done some AWFUL things with the power his pulpit gave him. It looks from his new site that he has learned very little, & is about to repeat all that stuff. This criticism doesn’t come from nowhere. I wish him the best as a human being, but he needs to sort out his narcissism & addiction to attention before he ever thinks of telling other Christians how to live.

  111. mickey johnson wrote:

    This blog is silly and frankly just out to persecute and harm Mark Driscoll.

    Then why in the world are you spinning your wheels here? Why don’t you take a break and try to figure out why this makes you so upset. I am so sorry that you are in such obvious pain. So are many of his victims so you share that with them.

    Don’t worry. Mark Driscoll will be back-he has lots of money and name recognition.

  112. I am glad that some of the Mars Hills pastors/elders stepped forward and posted their confessions here: http://repentantpastor.com/ about the damage they did and they have repented of their sins, against godly pastors/elders like Paul Petry who was fired after being falsely accused and tried before a meeting at Mars Hill. He had stood on the Biblical principals about how the church should be governed.

    But Paul Petry, his wife Jonna, and their children were ordered to be shunned by their entire church family and excommunicated. It was despicable what was done to them. They were destroyed financially and all of their relationships were similarly destroyed.

    Mars Hill should have made financial restitution to them for the damage that was done.

    Ditto all of the others that Mars Hill harmed.

  113. mickey johnson wrote:

    I have not seen any attempts by him to repent or seek forgiveness. But people who live by grace will be eager to forgive, hopefully that is EVERYONE in this blog…
    @ Bridget:

    Everyone on this blog are not Christians. But you might not know this as you have only recently commented.

    Forgiving Driscoll is one thing, and won’t happen without his repentance. When/if apologies happen, trust should be withheld until repentance has been seen in his actions over a period of time.

    Meanwhile, I believe that Driscoll is a danger to anyone who gets involved with him and we should warn people away from him. Much of his teaching is dangerous, not orthodox, and shouldn’t be listened to.

  114. Bridget wrote:

    Everyone on this blog are not Christians. But you might not know this as you have only recently commented.

    Thanks for remembering and making us part of the community. I appreciate it. ^_^

  115. Her is some evidence that MD has tried… (although probably not enough)

    Accusations and Report Investigation Findings

    In March 2014 over twenty former Mars Hill Church pastors, led by long term and prominent former elder Dave Kraft, challenged Mark Driscoll’s behavior as abusive, “unbiblical” and lacking accountability within Mars Hill Church.[47] That year many former Mars Hill Church pastors participated in a blog confessing their complicit participation in what they described as an unhealthy culture at Mars Hill, specifically an abusive leadership style by Mark Driscoll which they felt had become harmful within the Mars Hill community.[48]

    In October of 2014, a group of elders released their investigation of the accusations with “some 1,000 hours of research, interviewing more than 50 people and preparing 200 pages of information.” The report concluded that Mark Driscoll had never been charged with “immorality, illegality or heresy,” and considered “some of the accusations against Pastor Mark to be altogether unfair or untrue.” Additionally, many of the “other charges had been previously been addressed by Pastor Mark, privately and publicly. Indeed, he had publicly confessed and apologized for a number of the charges against him, some of which occurred as long as 14 years ago.”

  116. @ mickey johnson:
    Mickey, I’m atheist. I have no opinion and nothing to be upset about over Driscoll or Mars Hill. He and they have done nothing to or for me. You are writing like you are extremely agitated, and I would like to see you stop hurting. Obviously lurking around blogs that disagree with your temperaments so much is upsetting you, so it may be good to leave for your own calm.

  117. This is the first blog I have ever been on (other than for technical information)… I got here by accident… Sorry… I am going to leave. You are right, I am upset. But it is not why you have said. I am upset at people like you all here. I have given you documented proof (from MH) that MD has tried (but has clearly not gone far enough) to seek help, forgiveness etc…. But that goes ignored by this blog community… I have stated that forms like this, or conversations like this are negative in nature and could actually be doing more harm than good. Where are the calls to help MD? Where are the blogs for support? I find it discouraging that its so easy for people to jump on a negative, non caring and hurtful bandwagon than the contrary…

    In fact, this is the literary version of the protests that are happening across our nation now. A group of people get together and ignore facts on an issue, get them selves all riled up and act out (here through written word) with no thought of redemption. WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MAKE THIS (or any) SITUATION ANY BETTER? WHAT ARE YOU ALL DOING TO SPREAD AN ATTITUDE OF GRACE, FORGIVNESS AND REDEMPTION?

    N O T H I N G !!!!!!

    You all sit here behind your little laptops much like a protester hides their face with a bandana….

    You all are really not contributing to the good of humanity….

    Peace!

  118. mickey johnson wrote:

    Where are the calls to help MD? Where are the blogs for support?

    Well here you are, calling out loud and clear. Also, why don’t you start a blog to call out for his support. It takes a bit more work than having a hissy fit on a blog that someone else started.

    mickey johnson wrote:

    You all sit here behind your little laptops much like a protester hides their face with a bandana….

    I don’t. My picture and my name are spelled out loud and clear.

    mickey johnson wrote:

    You all are really not contributing to the good of humanity…

    Frankly, you are just another sycophant acting like the *great* role model that you admire. You don’t get it or you don’t want to get it and your comments prove that to many people. Your tirade didn’t work. Next time, try a little harder. Tell Driscoll we will still be watching. That little attempt at an apology was pathetic and should be embarrassing to his followers.

  119. Mickey, If I took your reasoning to scripture I would have to ask why John did not just write Gaius encouraging forgiveness for Diotrephes’ behavior. Why did he write what he wrote about him, instead? Could it be because it was really a warning about him?