"When I lost my rifle, the Army charged me 85 dollars. That is why in the Navy the Captain goes down with the ship."- Dick Gregory link
Carl Trueman on celebrity pastors:
Carl Truman recently wrote a post on celebrity pastors. Trueman recounts the problems of plagiarism (Driscoll) and the Elephant Room in his assessment and says the following:
It is not enough to say 'That person is no longer one of us' when you helped to create a culture in which accountability is not transparent and where your public silence encouraged the big names to think they could do what they wanted and not be held publicly to account. That is where today's problems started.
However, Carl Trueman assisted a ministry in continuing to dodge serious problems. Perhaps he is referring to his own role in exonerating CJ Mahaney as he says the following?
We who are associated with the so-called reformed evangelical movement, whether because we want to be or because others just make the connection, now look as corrupt and worldly as the despicable televangelists of a previous generation.
Carl Trueman, Dave Harvey and the Exoneration of CJ Mahaney
Take a look at this post from Sovereign Grace Ministries. It is written by Dave Harvey and is signed by Carl Trueman, Kevin De Young and Ray Ortlund JR. To my knowledge, none of these men have backed away from this position.
We are aware that numerous other instances of sin have been alleged against C.J. Mahaney. We have not been asked to look at the evidence for these but would comment that it is highly unusual for a pastor to step aside prior to the institution and completion of a proper church judicial process. To reiterate: nothing to which he has confessed would appear to us to require his stepping aside in advance of such a process.
While we affirm that C.J. Mahaney has not disqualified himself from ministry, we also encourage Sovereign Grace Ministries to address the broader issues to which we alluded at the start as a means of avoiding the current kind of situation in the future.
It is my opinion that Carl Trueman's participation in this ill advised *panel* contributed to the very thing he mentions above, celebrity pastors. CJ Mahaney, a certified gospel™ celebrity leader, was placed into the protected category of "He Whose Name Must Not Be Ill-Spoken." There are quite a few of these types out there and they all have their acolytes. So, according to Trueman, are people like CJ Mahaney NOT really celebrity pastors because he is *against* celebrity pastors and he supported Mahaney? That makes this observer confused.
We who are associated with the so-called reformed evangelical movement, whether because we want to be or because others just make the connection, now look as corrupt and worldly as the despicable televangelists of a previous generation.
Dave Harvey's new gig
Is it any wonder that some leaders think they can reinvent themselves without dealing with their underlying issues? Is it because they have celebrity apologists covering for them?
This happens in the "we are not really celebrity pastors, you just think we are" world all the time. Dave Harvey was, for years, allegedly one of the chief architects of all things SGM and head cheerleader and defender of CJ Mahaney. There is no sense in rehashing all of that but you can read about it here and here. He finally stepped down in March of 2013, alleging family and other ill defined problems. He left SGM in turmoil, with a pending lawsuit and a number of churches deserting the once vaunted network.
After a lightening resolution of all those ill-defined problems which made him step down from SGM, he became a preaching pastor at an Evangelical Free Church in Florida.
Dave Harvey is preaching pastor at Four Oaks Community Church in Tallahassee, Florida. He is president of Am I Called? Ministries, which exists to help men find their ministry call and to help the church find called men.
Harvey now advises other pastors on how to be good pastors! Cue theme song from the X Files.
Harvey apparently believes that he is now in a position to give other pastors advice on how to be a good pastor since he successfully vaulted out of the SGM mess, with nary a peep of apology or mea culpa offered. That is impressive. The question is this. Why in the world would anyone listen to Harvey if the SGM mess is an indication of his long term pastoral skills?
Harvey has a blog called Am I Called? So who wants to answer that question? He is experienced in implosions and knew what Mark Driscoll needed in August. Read carefully. Isn't this the opinion of a man who may be very familiar with these *pastoral techniques.* But, its the blogs which give him concern while Driscoll needs our prayers. Too funny!
…But I do know something about being under criticism and having blogs light up around one’s name.
…pray that God guides your conscience, even as He brings your writing gift under the care of a wise pastor.
…Mark Driscoll needs our humility.
…I have a feeling that for most of us, the answer may be to just mind our own business.
Dave Harvey then offers advice for the celebrity pastor problem. Am I the only one who feels like I have entered The Twilight Zone?
From THE CELEBRITY PASTOR PROBLEM: FROM MARS HILL TO ME
1. The popularity of his fan celebrity apologists is excused.
He claims popularity is different than celebrity. I shall show you why he might feel compelled to say this in a minute.
I hope the folks in our church listen to certain popular pastors like Keller, or DeYoung, or Chandler, or Piper. Especially Piper. Popular spells available, so I’m glad they’re popular.
2. He studiously ignores the CJ Mahaney/SGM celebrity culture which he helped to perpetuate and points to Mark Driscoll. Awesome deflection!
The latest round of discussion on celebrity pastors, or, for brevity ‘CP’s’, is coming compliments of Mark Driscoll and the maladies of Mars Hill
3. He then defines the 4 characteristics of the type of people who become celebrity pastors.
This eerily evokes another celebrity that Harvey knows all too well. See if you spot it.
Love of distinction
When the impulse for distinction becomes a love of distinction, a celebrity is conceived. And few people are more dangerous than a fame-stalking pastor. I know, because I’ve seen that enemy within my own soul. To me, this proves that even modestly gifted men can be seduced by the love of distinction.
Un-accountability Groups
CP’s often have relational networks or small groups that create the illusion of accountability, with little actual accountability. They group with an entourage of friends or family who are enamored with the pastor’s gifts, fruit, or leadership instincts. But an enamored entourage easily become enablers – people who have something stroked in them by cutting the CP slack.
To a celebrity swollen with self, hard questions feel like a personal attack; and to the sad soul bold enough to pose them, it’s a quick way to get benched in ministry.
Bunker-Home Vs. Ministry-Home
When a leader opens his home, what happens is far more than a simple meal, dessert, or whatever. He invites people into a context where he is (a) Not special, (b) Giving others a deeper look into his marriage and family, and (c) Serving by hosting.
… But I also noticed in working with leaders that when the home becomes a bunker rather than a place for ministry, everybody loses – the wife, the kids, the church, and them. For the celebrity, the solitude gained protects him, but it often comes at the expense of his credibility.
Leader-keeping
But only good leaders keep leaders. When a strong leader has a revolving door for guys under him, it typically means he doesn’t play well in private.
No, we’re talking here about a guy who displays an unwillingness or inability to work through conflict. We’re talking about a guy who shows people the door when they disagree with his ideas. The result? Good leaders won’t stick around.
Is this post a confession by Harvey or merely cognitive dissonance? Its implications are rather stunning to this long time observer.
The Promoters of the Celebrity Pastors of SGM
Recently, there has been discussion that the reason that Mars Hill continues to survive is due to the people who give money, no matter what. Well, there is also a group of people who support CJ Mahaney, Dave Harvey and all things SGM, no matter what.
1. John Piper
There is a reason that Harvey says to follow John Piper *in particular.* Desiring God, John Piper's website, has a page dedicated to articles written and talks given by Dave Harvey well as C J Mahaney. John Piper has spoken at CJ Mahaney's church and so have a number of other TGC leaders.
2. The Gospel™ Coalition
Arguably, no one group has shown more support for all things SGM than The Gospel™ Coalition. They not only published a letter in support of Mahaney but they recently published Dave Harvey's head scratching post.
3. Mark Dever, "Oh Captain, My Captain" and John Folmar
They continue to push CJ Mahaney, even pumping his books in the 9 Marks church in Dubai. Dever let CJ Mahaney, who exhibited one of the most cowardly acts in current day church history, hide under Dever's skirts when Mahaney was in trouble at SGM.
An Open Letter to Members of Sovereign Grace Churches 10/9/14 by Mark Prater regarding the lawsuit.
Please note that Grant Layman's name is not mentioned in this letter. Please read the entire letter for context.
On September 22, Maryland’s highest appellate court denied the plaintiffs’ request for the court to review the lower appellate court’s dismissal of the civil lawsuit that was brought against Sovereign Grace in October 2012. The dismissal of this case is a significant moment for everyone involved, and may be the subject of much conversation in and beyond our churches.
Second, there is my response as Executive Director for Sovereign Grace. The specific allegations made against Sovereign Grace in this suit were those of conspiracy claiming that we covered up abuse. Let me be clear that we deny—in the strongest terms possible—that any Sovereign Grace leaders conspired to cover up abuse as alleged in this lawsuit. There were allegations made in the civil suit against current pastors of Sovereign Grace churches, namely John Loftness, Gary Ricucci, and C.J. Mahaney. I want to be clear regarding these men: We believe these allegations are not true. I along with the entire Leadership Team continue to fully commend the character of these men and their ministry to the body of Christ. In addition, the elders in their local churches continue to commend their character and ongoing service as pastors.
I leave you with these questions for the weekend.
- Is Dave Harvey reinventing himself or is he just clueless?
- Was Harvey's post a dig at CJ Mahaney?
- Will Harvey ever apologize for the mess he was involved in at SGM?
- Is The Gospel Coalition aware of the possible implications of this post or are they clueless?
- Is the lawsuit now a moot point? In other words, move along, nothing to see here?
- Why is Grant Layman not mentioned in the letter? Is this the reason?
- Is SGM saying that all of the documents released by Brent Detweiler are part of the *misinformation* being spread? Are they fake?
Lydia's Corner: We will begin our new Bible reading program next week.
Ladies, nicely threaded together. I think it is entirely possible that DH believes what be wrote and perhaps even sees where contributed to a degree but probably a small degree. We will know if DH really gets it when we start hear g stories of those he has hurt from CFC hearing their phones ring with DH on the other end repenting. While I would hope, someday to see a public apology from him, I am not holding my breath. Dave participated in the lies about Larry Tomczack and participated in the cover up of CJ’s issues, deceiving the broader SGM audience. At minimum, those would be nice acknowledgements.
Harvey says, “…I have a feeling that for most of us, the answer may be to just mind our own business.”
I totally agree based on Jesus’ commendation and high praise of the religious guys who passed by the wounded guy lying on the other side of the road. They minded their business and so should we, right?
Jenn Grover wrote:
Once again, cue the music from X Files. Harvey’s post is startling in light of his history.
Gram3 wrote:
Good pickup.
Paul told the Corinthians that when one part of the body suffers, the other parts should either ignore it or tell it to get over it and move on. For the glory of God!
Plus, borrowing from Grudem’s methodology, can anyone show me one, even one, time where there were bloggers in the Bible or anywhere in the church until the late 20th century? So there should be no bloggers now. That is Grudem’s logic, and I think it is rock solid, just like everything that proceeds from the kephale of Grudem. Hear the word of the lord.
@ dee:
I’m proud to be a Samaritan ’cause at least it means I’m free. To care and speak out.
Will not buy a Crossway book.
Cue theme song from the X Files.
I think you are using the wrong tv reference. This might be more relevant…
@ Godith:
I second that!
Mr. Harvey says, ” I hope the folks in our church listen to certain popular pastors like Keller, or DeYoung, or Chandler, or Piper. Especially Piper.”
“Especially Piper”? Well Dee, you’ve read my most recent take on Mr. Piper. Even his tweets are problematic.
Dee, et al
Every time I go over and check to see if Carl Trueman has amended his bio, I chuckle. Not telling why. 😉
Go see for yourself…
http://www.wts.edu/faculty/profiles/trueman.html
Tim wrote:
I’m waiting for news about a strange event where all of Piper’s peeps wake up one morning, go into their library and find all of their Piper books lying face down on the floor with their covers ripped off and laying in the doorway. I wonder if he would tweet about the possible significance of that as a sign from God.
@ Deb:
This?
READ C.J. MAHANEY’S INTERVIEW WITH CARL TRUEMAN.
Bridget
CJ LIKES ME!!! HE REALLY LIKES ME!!!!
@ dee:
CJ reminds me of a middle school girl trying really hard (too hard)!
“While we affirm that C.J. Mahaney has not disqualified himself from ministry,”
————————————————————-
Am I correct in my understanding that CJ did admit to blackmailing a young man? If that is true, why would that not disqualify him from ministry? That is a serious charge and it seems major enough to disqualify a minister.
Bridget wrote:
Yes 🙄
Is there a good post somewhere that provides a good summary of the SGM meltdown? I was trying to explain to my wife the other day what all transpired and could not remember most of the details.
Carl A
Here is a guest summary that I did for the Internet Monk. It will not include the Nate Morale trial,
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/39341
@ Carl A:
Here is also a timeline link.
http://www.dipity.com/JennGrover/SGM-Crisis/
Nate Morales/ Grant layman confession
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/grant-layman-the-conspiracy-surrounding-nathaniel-morales.html
Also, see side links on our home page for the main stories on child sex abuse told from the perspective of the families
That should keep you busy!
@ Bridget:
i have often wonder if he gave other men and their ministries money like he gave to SBTS? I think there is a story there but I cannot get confirmation.
dee wrote:
There may have been a transfer of funds, but it may not be that overt. I would like to see transparency in their publishing and conference contracts. Are there non-disparagement clauses so that these men have, in effect, sold their “ability” to hold one another accountable? Are there other clauses or contracts, such as linked publishing agreements? Contingent future deals? Mutual endorsement clauses? Have these men signed away their discernment and their credibility in order to have their products produced and marketed?
The other thing is that all of these guys, including Trueman, have linked their individual reputations with Mahaney and/or Driscoll at one point or another and to one degree or another. Beyond the money, which is easier to identify with enough information, there is the intangible lust for fame and influence, and that requires that they never repent or confess or acknowledge errors in judgment or discernment, or, certainly any rank failure to meet the obligations of a pastor. They have to deny or deflect or ignore because to do otherwise is to state the obvious: these men are not the ultimate authorities to be trusted for everything.
Thanks Dee! Compiling an (unfortunately long) list of “Terrible Celebrity Pastors”, that helps fill in the blanks I was missing.
There are people who just don’t get the idea that ” plagiarizing” is a big deal.
Deb wrote:
I read the Dept. Of Church History bios and see that two of the three professors at WTS have their doctorates from Aberdeen in Scotland. I remember not long ago when the SBC was condemning ” some” of their teachers because they had PhD’s from a European university….
K.D. wrote:
“Their” as in WTS teachers? If so, who does the SBC think they are – God’s gift to the world? Sounds very elitist and/or cultish to me.
@ K.D.:
First of all, there are a lot of people claiming they have PhDs that have obtained them from diploma mills substituting for seminaries in the US.
Others use Dr in front of their name when it is honorary- a major faux pas.
Finally, everyone and his brother are getting PhDs remotely from the University of South Africa. They give credit if you have written a book, something these guys know how to do. That is where Mrs. Dr. Dorothy Patterson got hers.
@ Carl A:
Good night! Did you read everything in those links? You are Super Reader!
From Dave Harvey’s fawning post on Driscoll:
The difference, Harvey? We aren’t uninformed. We’ve seen Driscoll’s own videos, and heard him speaking drivel. We’ve read words that Driscoll himself had published. And we’ve read testimony from those who’ve been involved with, and hurt by, Driscoll and his machine.
Maybe you think those heartbroken folks don’t matter. After all, your concern certainly seems to be more for Driscoll and other pastors than for their flocks. Maybe you think they’re just hooting from the “Peanut Gallery”, as you put it. But if they’re in the Peanut Gallery, it’s because they’ve been exiled there. They were on the field, and now they’re banished, and after being run over by Driscoll’s bus.
So, ignore their stories, Harvey, if that makes you feel safer. But then don’t have the nerve to tell us that we’re uninformed. You’re the one who’s being ignorant on purpose, not us.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
You’ve put your finger on what ties all of these phenomena together. The concept of an elite.
The concept of an essential elite is common to Mahaney, Harvey, Driscoll, Mohler, Dever, Trueman, and all of the others. Without the clergy/laity hierarchy and distinction, there is nothing that privileges these men over most other men and over all women.
They represent mere differences among implementations of the same concept. The rather awkward problem is that they have alliances that have become somewhat entangling and problematic where once they were mutually beneficial.
So, Harvey distances himself from Mahaney by superficial, and I would argue transparent, differences. He does not, however, disavow the root problem which is the concept of an elite and ruling class or that there is some group that is somehow “more” than another, however that “more” is defined.
Obviously Carl Trueman is not Driscoll or Mahaney, and I’m sure he would disavow their implementation of the concept but not the concept itself. It becomes tricky to navigate the strait between maintaining the concept when the most notorious examples have demonstrated that your core concept is wrong and is responsible for the wreckage.
It becomes exceedingly tricky to do that when the core concept is roundly condemned by both the words and life example of Jesus who stood the concept on its head, as Paul explains in Philippians 2.
Bridget wrote:
The Shema at SBC seminaries and much of baptistic evangelicalism is “Hear Oh New Israel. The Lord our God, the Lord is One, and Grudem is his prophet.”
If it’s not in Grudem’s systematic, it doesn’t really matter. Then there is the Baptist-Presyterian thing and also the English-Scottish thing (Aberdeen vs. Cambridge for Grudem and Dever, IIRC.)
K.D. wrote:
Somehow I missed this. Where was it discussed? A former pastor of mine holds a Ph.D. from the same Scottish institution where Carl Trueman earned his doctorate.
Dave Harvey teaching people on whether or not they are called to be Pastors is kind of like Ted Bundy leading a speed dating event, or Jeffrey Dahmer having his own cooking show on cable! :-p
@ srs:
Lol!! Police Squad?!? Shirley you can’t be serious? :-p
@ dee:
Speaking of the honorary title of Doctor…should Dr. Ruth present an honorary PhD to Mark Driscoll?
Mark 10:42-45
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. KJV
Perhaps “celebrity pastors” should forget about themselves and began serving others as Jesus did? “Celebrity pastors” exist because they promote themselves. They will have no one to blame but themselves when they stand before the Lord.
Deb wrote:
Sorry, I looked at the bio on WTS’s site. I left the topic….I also took a Percocet for my back this morning….sorry…
:/
Back during the ” purge” there were SBC people who attacked those with doctorates from places like Geneva or Edinburgh, or just about any German or Dutch university…..too ” liberal ” was their claim….
@ Eagle:
Eagle wrote:
Good one.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Very well put, Serving.
I know nothing about Dave Harvey other than the two blog posts of his linked in the post above, but the problem you’ve highlighted is a common cognitive dissonance that has snared many professional clergy besides Mr Harvey.
They want us to buy books by popular pastors. They want these men’s words (and with them, perhaps their own) to become famous and for their influence to spread wider and wider throughout the Christian world. Then, when the example they set in deed, or word for that matter, falls short, and they prove to have been celebrated beyond their level of obedience, those same cheerleaders want us all to go quietly home and let these men quietly slip on the guise of wounded soldiers who need the beautiful love of blaaaah blah blaaaaah blah blaaaah.
These famous men are to be pastors to the world and his dog when it’s convenient, but when suddenly it’s not convenient, the world and his dog can clear off and mind our own business at home. Until it’s all blown over, when we can come back and buy the books, attend the conferences and contribute generously into the offering buckets again.
Comment 2 of 3 (as it’s nearly bedtime in Scotland)
The interesting Harveyoid blogpost linked to by Dee, entitled “What Mark Driscoll Really Needs Right Now”, contains the following call:
Here’s the thing. That which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God (NASB). But the converse is also true; God uses the weak, foolish and unfunded things to shame the strong, wise and rich. The very same biblical and appropriate evaluation for which Mr Harvey righty calls is being carried out – by people whom the professional clergy despise.
A man who has pursued fame and influence is being biblically and appropriately evaluated by people whom he did not pick and cannot fire, nor silence. God has seen to it that these Peanut Gallery Peasants have received a clearer, more thorough, and more comprehensively biblical training in these matters than many professional clergy who orbit in the same sphere as Driscoll does.
That, in part, is why blogs like this one exist. It was set up – correct me if I’m wrong, Deebs – to give a voice to the voiceless, rather than to “expose” the likes of Driscoll per se. It’s just that it’s impossible to give a voice to the voiceless without issuing a cry for justice, and repentance on the part of the rich and the powerful. Some people’s idea of “defending the orphan and the widow” is to wait politely for the oppressor to finish with them, then write a book on forgiveness.
Comment 3 of 3 (whereafter it isbedtime in Scotland)
On the other hand, perhaps we should all mind our own business on Driscoll, and maybe we all, around the english-speaking Christian world, should have been minding our business all along. Maybe none of us (I use the first person figuratively) should ever have bought his books or given any conference organiser any other indication that we would come and listen to him. Instead, perhaps we should all just have let the small group of Christians in Seetle listen to his sermons. If we had all done that, from the first tottering steps Driscoll tried to take outside of his area of responsibility – his local subgroup of believers – then none of this would ever have happened…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
erratum: that should have read then maybe none of this would ever have happened…
zzzzz
OFF TOPIC ALERT. Looking for help. Scarlet Letters is getting spammed with fake referrers, mostly from Indonesia from the looks of it. Has anybody else dealt with this?
Gram3,
You hit the nail on the head. SGM’s leadership hierarchy is set up exactly like the Catholic Church. You have/had the Pope (Mahaney), Cardinals (Harvey, Shank, Parter, Connelley, Loftness, et. al), Bishops (any of the regional directors) and then your priests (the “elders” and all pastors in the local churches). It is a CLOSED society. Members of SGM churches will be “heard”, but they are not part of ANY process in the hiearchy/decision making of SGM or the local churches. SGM leadership TRULY TRULY TRULY believes that THEY hear from God more so than an individual Christian. It’s quite unbelievable … and unbiblical.
Even the term “elder” is a slap in the face to SGM members. There is a church in the New Jersey that has an “elder” who is the pastor’s son. He is all of 28 years old. This goes across all SGM churches. An elder is defined as one being a pastor. Now, because of economic issues we are beginning to see “Lay Elders” being created in SGM churches. These are members who are not pastors. Kind of like the “deacon” in the Catholic Church. They can do things within the church, but they certainly are not in the final decisions that are made at the local church level. (Oh, by the way, did I mention that “lay elders” are hand-picked by the Pastors? … Yes men and those that follow the SGM code of ethics to the “T”.).
SGM members “Mind our Business” because that is what a good puppy does in the SGM world.
FYI, the only way to stop the unbiblical behavior is to starve these leaders of income. To points already made, it won’t happen. Satan can (and I believe has)come sit down and lead SGM himself and people will still gladly follow and tithe to this cult.
Note: I spent 25 years in this hell hole. I know.
I am trying to figure out why Dave Harvey has any credibility at all or thinks he does. How strange.
Harvey is really trying to stay relevant, he was dropped by sov grace because of issues in his family, but because of his reckless ambition he keeps trying to get skin in the game.
__
“Flushed Away?”
hmmm…
The original SGM/SGC lawsuit also names four officials of the Fairfax, Virginia (former) SGM/SGC church, alleging an orchestrated ‘cover-up’ of child sex abuse incidents, and a failure to report them to the police as well.
Whatz up wit dat?
—
Gram3 wrote:
“Some transfer of funds?”
Get real. These folks have $old their $ouls. I had the displeasure of sitting in a “members only” meeting when the church my friend was attending was considering “adoption” into $GM. It was supposed to be a open time for members to ask questions. Dave “the apostle” Harvey blew them all off. I asked a simple question about their philosophy of missions. I was blown off.
Is it just me or do you see something a bit odd about someone who previously signed onto $overign Grace/PDI’s statement of faith suddenly signing an EFC statement of faith? Are these comparable? I of course assume that a pastor must sign such a document.
If so, where are the core values, or does one change views whenever it makes $en$e.
Judas Maccabeus
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
It’s not just you. The EFree churches I’ve known of were totally incompatible with both doctrine and polity in SGM, as I understand it. There are denominational channels in the EFree that I don’t believe are shams as they are in SGM. I don’t know anything about the particulars of Dave Harvey at SGM or Dave Harvey now, nor do I know anything about the circumstances that caused his current church to accept him.
SGM has been obviously a con to me, but I’ve seen a lot of cons in Christianity over the years. I wish I were shocked. C.J. proved that doctrine is something to be adopted or discarded. What does a Catholic have to do with a Protestant charismatic with a reformed baptist? Zero except that each move increased his income and influence. Now, what I find fascinating in the same way a trainwreck is fascinating, is why do some think he is/was so amazing? I have never seen a video of him where he was anything but transparently fake and manipulative.
Core values I think are money and power. They shouldn’t be in the church, but historically it has been a recurring problem. Doctrine is merely packaging to obscure what the pewplebes are actually purchasing. That, IMO is why things which are fundamentally the same look very different. The packaging and marketing is designed for different market segments.
In my experience, the followers of YRR Leaders–as well as others in different systems–believe they are getting deep doctrine and deep love and relationships, but actually they are being deeply indoctrinated in the system that benefits the Leaders. The Leaders love themselves and not their Lord or their people, and they need and demand unremitting adoration and devotion from their fan base.
Well, that reads like I’ve never been conned. If only. Just the like people conned by SGM or C.J., I was conned because I wanted to believe and so I did believe the con. C.J. is obvious to me, and the ones who conned me were obvious or became apparent to others before I saw the truth of the matter. Which means we need to help one another be wise and discerning.
Anyone else hear about the members meeting at CLC? I am so disturbed and angry by what my friend said that I can barely stand it.
Former-
What’s the buzz on CLC?
__
“Do You Have Any Religious Jokers, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
These proverbial SGM/SGC religious “conmen” sucker punched these poor church folks for ‘years’, and years., and years.
Clergy, applying their trade, Ministering to the sheep, Shepherding the flock, Caring for souls?
huh?
Is there any reason why these folks who suffered under ‘religious’ men who’s resumé are now filled with glaring multiple documented examples of vivid spiritual abuse, should not be suffering from post religious distress syndrome? (PRDS)
What?
(bump)
Is it any wonder they still ‘follow’ Christ at all?
(sadface)
One congregation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all?
SKreeeeeeeeeetch !
Fat chance.
…go fish.
(tears)
Sopy
__
Comic relief: The Rolling Fish – “Here comes you nineteenth spiritual breakdown?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXVI4l9_BBg
🙂
—
dee wrote:
And downright illegal over here in Europe ! The Germans in particular seem to take this seriously.
Judas Maccabeus
Gram3 wrote:
Everyone wants their church to succeed, therefor we bring in those with a record of success. Success is defined in the American mind as numbers and $$$$$. Thus the quest for a celebrity pastor. The church receiving him believes his story that he got a raw deal in the last place. We Christians tend to believe that others speak the truth, and we give someone the benefit of any doubt, until it hits you in the face. When these guys are called out, they either try to silence the truth, or if that fails run.
“”There will come a time when you cannot run and hide from the Things you have done anymore”
Battlestar Galactica, Cmdr. Adama’s dedication speech of the Galactica museum
Judas Maccabeus,
The Hammer
CLC had a members meeting that apparently discussed the Nate Morales case. My friend had initially told me something that she misinterpreted from the meeting, so I was thinking they hadn’t told the truth. But someone at Survivors clarified things for me.
Friends, I just got off the phone w/ a friend of mine–she was sexually abused by a teen relative when she was a child. Now, he’s in his 40’s and she just found out he abused someone else. She feels so responsible–she also knows the family has swept this under the rug, and that *she* will be the pariah if she comes out & says, “I was abused too.” She needs prayers, support, healing, and God to intervene with GOOD counselors who know what they’re talking about–not assholes who focus on, “Well, let’s not be bitter, & let’s forgive.” 🙁 please pray for her, in this soul-crushing decision. Please also pray for me, that I might say the right, helpful things, and shut up when I need to.
Off Topic (1)
If Your Pastor Has A $60k A Year Clothing Allowance, You Probably Should Leave That Church
by Doug Giles
http://townhall.com/columnists/douggiles/2014/10/12/if-your-pastor-has-a-60k-a-year-clothing-allowance-you-probably-should-leave-that-church-n1903915
From the article:
“No, the reason they fled Babylon [their former mega church in Florida] was because they found out that their pastor had an elder-approved clothing budget of $60,000 a year built into his financial perks for pastoring.”
Off Topic (2)
The pastor at this church, according to different news sites, is said to have pressured women members to get abortions; he was homosexual, preached against homosexuality, and inappropriately touched male congregants in their private areas (especially after they got vasectomies); and he covered up sexual abuse in his church.
There are so many accusations it’s hard to keep them all straight. There are several news sites covering this story with more, or other, details.
Televangelist Ernest Angley encouraged vasectomies, abortions, Akron Beacon Journal reports
http://www.cleveland.com/akron/index.ssf/2014/10/cuyahoga_falls_evangelical_chu.html
by John Harper
From the article:
“CUYAHOGA FALLS, Ohio — Grace Cathedral, the church run by Pentecostal evangelist Ernest Angley, is being accused of operating like a cult, where women were pressured to get abortions and men were persuaded to have vasectomies, according to the Akron Beacon Journal.”
__
SGM/SGC: “Denial R US?”
“Mark Prater, Executive Director of Sovereign Grace Ministries, (SGM/SGC) posted an open letter Oct. 9 denying “in the strongest terms possible” that any SGM leaders conspired to cover up sexual or physical abuse of children.”
hmmm…
Mark Prater: No “SGM leaders conspired to cover up sexual or physical abuse of children…”
SKreeeeeeeeeeetch !
Lõõking good, Mark Prater,
…has the proverbial SGM/SGC pedophile barbecue run outa victims?
huh?
Or is it if you tell the big lie long enough, loud enough, kind folk will believe you?
What?
R U having a ‘sale’ on millstones?
They are ‘certainly’ piling up!
Absolutely!
*
..the Lord is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOFgFAcGHQc
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
🙂
—
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-29613064
“A woman has claimed the IRA forced her to confront her alleged rapist before forcing her into silence to protect the republican movement from her claims.”
Does this remind anyone else of the ..alleged.. story about the SGM pastors forcing the 3 year old child to do the same?
IMO – “Terrorist pastors protecting the Church movement.”