What We Can Learn From Mike Anderson’s Departure From Mars Hill

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy.
-Franz Kafka link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=21433&picture=bampw-sign-exitExit

Mike Anderson, former Director of the Resurgence at Mars Hill, wrote an insightful as well as apologetic post on why he left Mars Hill. It was aptly titled Hello, my name is Mike, I'm a recovering true believer. We have received a number of emails about this particular post which seems to have struck a cord with many people. Not only was his post thoughtful, but some of the comments under the post were helpful to me in understanding why the machine called Mars Hill, along with its leader, Mark Driscoll, keeps on churning.

I want to thank Mike for being honest because he is helping to illuminate the problems not only at Mars Hill but at churches around the US and the rest of the world. It is vital to understand that the Mars Hill "way" is infecting (yes, I mean to use the word) churches around the world. They have a worldwide presence which we believe is causing global dysfunction wherever it takes root.

Here are some discussion points that I think might be helpful to consider as we look at Anderson's departure from Mars Hill.

  • The church in America defines success just like Wall Street defines success. 
  • Most rank and members are trained to accept whatever is thrown at them from the pulpit.
  • It is dangerous to have a bunch of inexperienced young men being thrown into leadership positions.
  • Church leaders are as capable of serious sin as the rank and file is capable of serious sin.
  • Most boards of accountability/elders are chosen to prop up the lead pastor's vision.
  • The rank and file membership, as well as subordinate pastors, are trained not to ask questions but merely to do as asked.
  • The rank and file, along with subordinate pastors, are deliberately trained to give "pat" responses that show little in-depth Biblical understanding and/or wrestling with the text and context. This is part of the control mechanism to keep the status quo.
  • Many people in today's churches cannot cope with the negative reality due to cognitive dissonance. Deep down inside, they fear having to admit they were wrong about the church and/or church leadership.
  • Most Christians are not going to change the world or lead epic lives and that is just fine with God. (I am ready for the explosion on this one.)

A number of years ago, I had a sort of faith crisis when I learned that the story of the woman caught in adultery is not in the earliest manuscripts.  That was the beginning of me asking lots of questions. I have found many answers. However, the questions caused me to look at the Bible in a new light. I no longer could participate in the "fill in the blanks" Bible studies. Often the pat questions and pat answers left me dangling.

For example, here is one question that I had. Why do pastors of megachurches always address the life of Paul as the standard? Was Paul to be the standard for all of us? If so, how did the slave, stuck in the household of one of the Roman elite, survive? He couldn't preach to his master or he would be killed.  He was often beaten-not for being a Christian, but for being a slave who could be beaten. Some of the female slaves were raped repeatedly and beaten. If they managed to blurt out that they became a Christian, they would be sent to be a torch for one of Nero's garden parties. 

The world changed, bit by bit due to the faithfulness of the Christians, often seen in how they died in the Coliseum or treated their abusers with respect and love. It was done in little ways. They didn't live to see Christianity become a dominant religion. 

Yet, in churches around the world, we are implored to be world changers. As Matt Redmond so succinctly put it in his book, The God of the Mundane, "Is there a God for those who are bank tellers or single moms who strive to put bread on the table?"

Youth and the "True Believer" syndrome.

We change with age and experience. Hence, the famous quote attributed to Winston Churchill as well as Disraeli.

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain

This quote, albeit limited, brings forth an important point. When we are young, our passions are rather pure. We actually think we can change the world and will jump on the bandwagon of anyone who says we can: that includes despots like Pol Pot, Lenin, and crackpots like the Hale-Bopp folks. Look at the Communist Revolution in which we would all share equally. What happened?

Also, the young person, as well as a new Christian, drawn into the "way of Mars Hill" have little experience in interpreting the Bible, often defaulting to what is said up front as being the "gosh honest," gospel™ truth. Why would they know the difference? In fact, in many churches today, small groups are told to only study the sermons of the pastor. Is the Bible viewed as dangerous if not interpreted by the pastor?

How many churches today have young elders, young leaders, young pastors and young congregations with little experience beyond college degrees? This is a set up for the development of "the True Believer." The hero worshipper of the "he's the man" pastor. History proves it. 

Mike Anderson:

You see, I’m what they call a True Believer.

I really like the idea of changing the world: sacrifice for the cause, single-minded drive for the “mission,” a charismatic leader. As a 19-year-old

Mars Hill was a big part of my life from ages 18-28. 

The "Evangelical Pope" syndrome

For all of evangelical blathering about the "heresy" of the pope, many people tend to equate fame with gospel™ truth. I call this the "Evangelical Pope" syndrome. If John Piper says it, it must be true. Why? Well, "everyone" says so. Jesus seems a little weak and hard to understand when compared with guys like Piper and Driscoll. These guys can do no wrong. If you think there is something wrong with them then "who the heck do you think you are?" This was something that was conveyed to the Deebs before we started blogging. Hero worship exists in the seminaries and pulpits all over America.

One time I was at a big event in Chicago. I had been in the bar having dinner with John Piper and his team at Desiring God. For me, regularly getting to sit with men like this was the equivalent of a die-hard football fan sitting down with the Super Bowl Champion Seahawks—these were my heroes. As I left the bar and walked down stairs I ran into Tim Keller 

The megachurch is not doing such a great job of saving the world.

The early church coped with persecution, poverty, slavery, hatred along with a median life span in the early 30s. Here are some charts. Yet, this was a church that changed the world.  Today, however, in the United States, church success is measured by "bucks, buildings and bottoms." These churches draw people in by spending lots of money on coffee shops, technology, the best of music, etc. Interestingly, this method for drawing people into the church has NOT resulted in drawing more people into the fold. In fact, the hipster church merely tends to shuffle the deck. Christians today move from church to church, consistently seeking out the "experience." 

We evaluate the church in the same way McDonald's markets their burgers. However did Jesus do it?

TWW asked the question 'Are church plants converting anybody?" in this post.

See what Mike has to say about Mars Hill.

This was no ordinary megachurch—it was the “fastest-growing church” in the “least-Christian city” in America. It had planted hundreds of new churches around the world—everyone knew us. 

So much of our organization was stuck on politics and ineffective use of money, and I thought we needed a CFO/COO type to help us with that. Even though Sutton was new and untested, he was experienced with handling money and growth. 

The "I will tell you what the Bible means when it says 'x'" gambit.

So, you have an evangelical, hipster pope at the helm of a well attended church. Said pastor is complementarian and you, raised in the current culture, have no idea what that's all about so you take the word of your "successful" pastor. Driscoll has some strong views on women and men. He calls guys "man fails" if their wife is working. The goal is for her to stay home and produce kids. (Quick digression: some statistics show that new Christian baptisms tend to be those children who are raised in Christian households. No wonder there is a push to produce kids and get them into the church.)

Many people accept what Driscoll said; hook, line and sinker. Why is that? It is far easier to be told what to do as opposed to figuring out what the Bible actually says to do. This was the problem with the Pharisees. They had books with all sorts of rules and regulations on how to carry out the law. Many of the rules were stupid. For example, one could not spit on the ground on the Sabbath because it might water a seed and cause it to grow. Said spitter would have worked on the Sabbath, a violation of the commandment. But the people accepted it. It was far easier to go along as opposed to bucking the system. After all, they were Pharisees so they should know, right?

So, Mike, bless his heart, is willing to admit the he screwed up. He allowed Driscoll to tell him what the Bible says without wrestling with the passages himself. He apologizes for "misogyny." 

During this time I made some huge mistakes. I pressured my brilliant and hard-working wife to give up her dream of law school and have a baby and be a stay-at-home mom as soon as possible. 

What isn’t great is that I allowed others to take verses from the Bible out of context and put a law on my wife and rob her of a dream.

Mark Driscoll and his Board of Accountability have serious problems.

I am not going to go into all the problems that have been well outlined by this blog, all the people and pastors who have left, Warren Throckmorton, Janet Mefferd, etc.  Mike says:

…For all of the good things about Mark that make him the kind of guy that thousands of young men wanted to follow, he also has his own issues. 

…The mission had changed and the people making decisions were showing weakness. 

…The entire previous executive elder board was broken up and a new executive elder board with massively different values, theology, and ecclesiology was brought in. Long-held beliefs about how a church should be run were secretly changed, fear and intimidation were constant, and power was consolidated even more than it had been. Because I was interested in “tower building,” this didn’t bother me. When I left, I was actually an advocate for many of the policies that consolidated power. 

For example, James MacDonald serves on the BOAA. So, of course, the rank and file believe that Driscoll is in good hands. Have any of them taken a look at the enormous debt that MacDonald has put on this church? Do any of them know that he lives in a mansion? If not, why not? Do they think that somehow he is going to encourage Driscoll to be fiscally conservative? Good night!

Mark Driscoll believes he is the pilot and sees things that other people do not.

Herein lies the basic problem. There used to a bumper sticker back in the 60s that said "Jesus is my co-pilot." Well, that rapidly went out of favor since God is the one in control. Imagine this. Mark Driscoll thinks that he, Mark, is the pilot and this is why he is dangerous. TWW wrote a post called Mark Driscoll: He Ain't No Captain Sullenberger. Here is an excerpt.

Driscoll likens himself to an airline pilot who, because he is upfront in the cockpit, sees what is going on. His church attendees are the uninformed passengers who cannot see what is coming.

To explain this, he launches into an explanation of bank turns that airliners have to take.

25–30 degrees: 1.1–1.2 g-force on the body, most people won't feel a thing.
45 degrees: 1.5 g-force, people start to feel it
 60 degrees: 2-2.5 g-force, people really feel it and start to freak out.
70–80 degrees: Around 5 g-force, people start getting tunnel vision as the blood rushes out of their eyes.

He then goes on to pontificate that an experienced pilot might be forced to make one of those significant turns. He likens himself to that pilot-the guy who has to save the lives of his people. He fusses that, when such a sharp turn is necessary, many people freak out, storm the cabin and trash the pilot after they have, get this, “Landed safely.’

I do not know what newspaper Driscoll has been reading but, when a pilot makes an emergency turn, and lives are saved, the passengers usually give him a standing ovation.

Here is our assessment of this nonsense.

Here is Driscoll’s problem. He sees himself as an elitist pastor who is the only one who can see out of the cockpit. Baloney! It reminds me of that stupid commercial in which a man announces “I am not a doctor but I play one on TV.” The emperor has no clothes.
A church is not a jetliner. The Holy Spirit invades the lives of all believers and gives all involved a window to see what is coming ahead. The pastor may have a couple years of Greek under his belt but a church is made up of the body and he has time to consult even the “least among these.”

Unless a church is about to get bombed, there is not a need to bank so hard that, to use Driscoll’ ridiculous example, “blood comes out of the eyeballs.” And any pastor who believes this is not worthy of our trust. I say to all of those whose pastors believe that they are “highly trained professionals", to find a real pastor who understands about love, mercy and grace. Leave behind those pastors who believe that they are pilots who are involved in life and death decisions in the cockpit of a jetliner.

Mike Anderson discusses Driscoll's post, Do You Trust Your Pilot?

The problem with this article that Mark wrote is that he puts himself in the place of Jesus. Christian churches believe that Jesus is in charge, in communication with God, and sees the future. The reality is that leaders in a church should be the attendants—serving people, helping in any way needed, and stepping in to make tough calls in emergency situations.
When you have thousands of people who hear this type of teaching, embrace it, and make decisions accordingly, it creates a very dangerous situation for a leader who struggles with pride.


Driscoll says he doesn't know if he can worship Jesus if his church stops growing. (Read that again!)

It is shocking to me that people didn't make this man get help after he said the following in 2006. Mike Anderson repeats Driscoll's words.

“I’m a guy who is highly competitive. Every year, I want the church to grow. I want my knowledge to grow. I want my influence to grow. I want our staff to grow. I want our church plants to grow. I want everything – because I want to win. I don’t want to just be where I’m at. I don’t want anything to be where it’s at. And so for me it is success and drivenness and it is productivity and it is victory that drives me constantly. I – that’s my own little idol and it works well in a church because no one would ever yell at you for being a Christian who produces results. So I found the perfect place to hide. And I was thinking about it this week. What if the church stopped growing? What if we shrunk? What if everything fell apart? What if half the staff left? Would I still worship Jesus or would I be a total despairing mess? I don’t know. By God’s grace, I won’t have to find out, but you never know.” 

Cognitive Dissonance is alive and well in the church.

People latch onto out of context Bible verses to protect their system. They refuse to admit that Driscoll has been talked to and talked to ad nauseum and has done nothing to address his obvious problems. Here are some comments found at Anderson's post.

Screen Shot 2014-07-07 at 3.28.19 PM

Screen Shot 2014-07-07 at 3.23.09 PM

Screen Shot 2014-07-07 at 3.26.29 PM

The first commenter should be aware that the entire Bible is filled with the airing of dirty laundry. It shows all of mankind as sinners, including those in the roles prophets, priest and kings that Driscoll is so fond of imitating. It would do us well  to remember this when we are tempted to emulate a pastor. 

Paul, the second commenter, exists in the land of "unity." Except he is wrong. He doesn't. Unity is never achieved by ignoring reality. In fact, the Bible speaks to this.

They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace. (Jeremiah 6:14 NIV)

And why is there no peace and unity? Because even today, we allow our prophets and priests to do their own thing.

"Both prophet and priest are godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness," declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:11)

As for the final comment, I would tell Brooke to read the Gospels and figure out how the early church grew. Somehow, it came without Bose speakers, coffee shops and hipster pastors. Jesus stayed in a tiny area and spoke to a very limited population. He was dealing with uneducated people who lived hand to mouth and died young. All of the disciples, except for John, died as martyrs. John spent a great deal of his life in prison, probably preaching to a few guards. Young mothers were sent  to the lions. Yet, the church grew.

TWW applauds the honesty of Mike Anderson. Thank you for transparently sharing your thoughts. May God bless you in the days and years ahead.

In the meantime, we all have lots of assumptions about the Bible and very few people to ask the hard questions. And we think we are going to change the world?

Lydia's Corner: Hosea 1:1-3:5 1 John 5:1-21 Psalm 124:1-8 Proverbs 29:5-8

Comments

What We Can Learn From Mike Anderson’s Departure From Mars Hill — 211 Comments

  1. Dee, your analysis of Driscoll’s quest for success and refusal to listen humbly to correction remind me that this is the guy who once denigrated those who dared look into the Bible themselves – perhaps even in the original languages, shock and horror! – to discern whether his sermons were scripturally sound or not. He said only rebellious evangelicals do that, and he doesn’t want any rebels at his church … well, none but himself I’d say.

    Cheers,
    Tim

    P.S. Thanks for the Beatles song. Did you know that yesterday was the 50th anniversary of their movie Hard Days Night? 50 years. I’m old.

  2. @ Tim:
    The Revolution that Lennon expected did not occur. However, McCartney did become a vegetarian and Ringo married Caveman’s Barbara Bach. I, too am old.

  3. There is an old saying: “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The first time that the “elders” allowed Driscoll to bump off anyone who disagreed with him, he had absolute power. And he has used it. Mars Hill is not a church, it is an empire. Stalin could learn from Driscoll how to keep the proletariat happy and quiet while ruling with an iron fist.

  4. My first comment was too snarky. I would like to say, a consistent reading of Scripture will bring great wisdom if you chose to allow it to infiltrate your heart and mind.
    *
    Charlatans in the pulpit? “Nothing new under the sun.” – Solomon

  5. dee wrote:

    The pastor may have a couple years of Greek under his belt…

    That’s doubtful in Driscoll’s case.

    In fact, how Driscoll managed to get a Masters degree from Western Seminary without taking the required Greek & Hebrew courses, like other Western graduates allegedly are required to take in order to receive a Masters degree, is one of those scandals in the making that has yet to be fleshed out.

    A certain blogger who frequents TWW has touched on the subject here: http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/01/heidelblogs-on-driscollbreshears.html

  6. I read the article and especially about the guy talking his wife out of law school, and the header way up there about CFBM having zero female board members, and I just wanted to say that the acts 29 church down the street from me is not like that anymore, they actually have appointed female deacons. I copy/pasted from their web page just to prove it. (I took off their last names)http://www.gracecovonline.com/about-us/leadership.html

    RENAE
    Deacon of Hospitality

    TARAH
    Deacon of Mercy

    EVA
    Deacon of Administration

    RONDA
    Deacon of Grace Kids Nursery

    BECKY
    Deacon of Mercy

  7. because I am in a different time zone my comments are often the last ones on the last page of yesterdays blog so I would like, if its ok, to take an opportunity to comment on a few things from the last few days topics here.

    @ nancy, I really appreciate all your posts, I have never thought you were making anything up, thank you for sharing your work experiences. I think people with experiences like yours have much wisdom in areas that are often disregarded by powerfull people in high positions that really could save themselves a lot of embaressment and judgment from God if they just listened to people like you.

  8. @ daisy, I am a member of AA and I think your comments were very hurtful to AA and might have been made because you havent been a member of AA. A lot of people talk about church that way, often people who have never been to church, or perhaps gone to the wrong church. btw, let me say also that I really appreciate your being on the blog, I always think about things from a single female christian perspective that (shamefully) I have never considered before.

    @ AA, Alcoholics Anonymous does teach that we should look at our own part in the things we have resentments about. It also teaches that there are two types of alcoholics, one is grandious and puffed up with pride and needs to be leveled back down to be able to overcome their alcoholism, the other is on the depressed side and needs comfort and building up. AA is a book written by a man who saw the Lord and was delivered from alcoholism and talked a lot about returning to the Great Shepherd of our souls. The book is taught by many people from many backgrounds and can be used by different people with different motives. Some groups use it to beat people into AA discipleship and some use it to show the way to the Shepherd, reminds me of another Book and another group of people that use it. My AA homegroup recently spoke about people who have looked at “their part” and found they did nothing wrong in an instance and then they talked about how to deal with the results of sins done to you without having to stay drunk over them. it was a good meeting. The meetings are for people that can’t stop drinking on their own and how they can find help to do that. The big book recommends talking to pastors, priests, or phychiatrists if necessary. Some groups will teach the AA book but leave out the parts that I mentioned. It reminds me of dry legalistic churches that preach the bible but leave out these parts: John 16:7, John 17:20-23, Luke 24:49, Acts 2:1, Acts 4:31 (peter and john again) Acts 19:1-6. I can totally understand why people want to omit those scriptures, but just because some (like the ‘Toronto blessing’ and NAR) have misused them and counterfitted them doesn’t mean that God doesn’t use them. Our fruit that Jesus is looking for is in Galatians 5:22-23 and Jesus Himself said “5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6
    It also makes me think that the new mega churches run by “captains” preach the bible but only those parts that suit their purposes.

  9. I wanted to say that I really appreciated e-church last weekend and thought that Wades sermon perfectly addresses the difference between people that confront a churches or church leaders sins and how we are called by Jesus to follow Him in this regard. the common response from the churches/pastors seems to be what is posted in the article, ‘your being divisive, unscriptural, etc.’ and the other day I was wondering something. I was thinking, Jesus addressed Pharisees and lawyers both on one occasion of reproving them, and I was wondering if the Pharisees and lawyers went back to the temple and started filing a lawsuit against Jesus for defamation of character or slander or libel. hehe probably.

  10. also, I really appreciate everyone on this blog that posts, even the lawyer lol no inference intended, I wasn’t thinkin of you when I wrote that.

    also wondered if anyone has been following boz’s recent post about the church that hired a sex offender who recently sexually offended a boy in the congregation. it is exactly like what this dee post is about, how the church checks their brains at the door and believes everything that the leadership tells them.

    http://boz.religionnews.com/
    4 lessons we can learn from a church that hired a sex offender
    Boz Tchividjian | Jun 27, 2014

    when people look into mismanagement by church officials or pastors and there is often financial sin. I have had my heart broken repeatedly by meeting the children and adults that have been abused by pastors, elders, etc. I don’t even care if they embezzle tons of money anymore. I have met so many people who’s lives have been utterly destroyed, I have seen too many suicides, i have met so many people that when I try to tell them Jesus loves them, they think I said give me money and serve me and you might make it into heaven. People in the parks and on the streets and in the homeless shelters don’t want to hear about “Jesus” at all. someone on the facebook page where mike andersons post was put and also the mismanagement of foreign donations was posted, commented something like: I am glad that money didn’t go oversees, I would rather have all that money spent on buying MD coffee and mansions for life than to have spread his gospel and church all over the world.

  11. I’m not gonna explode on you for that, Dee. Most of us are crowd scene, at best, not starring roles.

  12. Caitlin wrote:

    I’m not gonna explode on you for that, Dee. Most of us are crowd scene, at best, not starring roles.

    I love being in a crowd. So many people to meet and have fun with.

  13. DEE!!!!!

    YOU GO GIRL!!!! I think this article captures so much of how I feel about modern fundagelicalism. I actually want to jump in the car, drive down to Raleigh; turn around then drive back and try and be at my desk for work by 9:00. 😀 Think that is possible?

  14. dee wrote:

    @ Tim:
    The Revolution that Lennon expected did not occur. However, McCartney did become a vegetarian and Ringo married Caveman’s Barbara Bach. I, too am old.

    Every time I hear “Back in the USSR,” I think of young people today just wondering “what does all this mean?” I think the same thing when I listen to *gasp* rap.

  15. Dee wrote:

    I love being in a crowd. So many people to meet and have fun with.

    And so much stress off your shoulders. I’m not the star of this show, God is. Makes things simple.

    (I will say though that my anxiety around being surrounded by people makes me assume that when it’s time for me to join the chorus in New Jerusalem, I will have a corner set aside just for me. Otherwise, bring on being one of the bunch.)

  16. The one thing that bothers me so much with the modern reformed crowd is that many are young. They say and know little when it comes to pain and suffering and life. And yet in the grand scheme of the things I think it’s perfect that they are in the movement. The are the right kind of people that you need to indoctrinate and brainwash. Remember what Philippians 4:13 says in the ESV, “With Kool-aide all things are possible” 😛

    But getting back to being serious I think its important to note how youth’s play out in the true believer in many revolutions and movements.

    (Editor moderation)

    2. In terms of indoctrination of youth look at Communist China. In 1966 Mao Zedong launched the Cultural Revolution by calling on youths to lead in the effort to purge “impure elements” from society. In the process they were given a “Little Red Book” filled with quotes from Mao Zedong. It was the youth that played a key role in the cultural revolution.

    Today instead of Mao’s “Little Red Book” you have Mark Driscoll’s books and a bunch of clones and robots who go around quoting Driscoll. (They also do the same thing with Piper) The same principle applies and its the same indoctrination and a select few are using the inexperience of youth against the youth.

  17. @ Eagle:

    Dee…I mean I want to give you a Hi 5 and then turn around and brave the I-95 and be back to work in Washington, D.C. by 9:00 😀

  18. @ Eagle:

    I agree wholeheartedly. One of the pieces of advice my parents gave me when I set forth to church hunt when I started college was “Pick a church that has a wide-range of age groups.” They said it was a good way to combat the social isolation of college, but later events made it clear they meant it was a good way to temper the excesses of youth.

    Lest readers of an older generation fear we are all lost, I am 26 and when I was 20 and the group I was part of started down a Driscolly road, I was very firm in my displeasure and held sufficient sway that it didn’t completely win out. Some of us are just naturally suspicious?

  19. I might be in the Seattle area over a weekend later in summer. Is it worth visiting this church even for curiosity’s sake?

  20. Some thoughts on the Great and Honorable John Piper.

    What would life be without him? Can one imagine life without him? I mean here’s this guy who stands a tall 3′ and 2″ who suffers from a Napoleonic complex. He thinks he’s the reincarnated Jonathan Edwards, and who knows maybe in a previous life he was. 😛 With all the weird stuff coming out of John Piper maybe we can get Madame Cleo to do a reading on his life and find out…why is he so short? And even more importantly why is he so confusing? If I were the President of his graduating college I would ask for him to return the degree.

    Mark Dever’s Capital Hill Baptist seems to the be newest internment camp, ugh…whoops I mean “Body” for people to flee to. Rest assured when SGM collapses in 2015 you know darn well that CJ Mahaney will flee there and hide behind Mark Dever’s and Jonathan Leeman’s skirt! 😛

    I guess what this long, rambling rant is saying is the following….John Piper needs to get off the stage. And since he has Instant Messenger with God (or is it text messaging?) and seems to know the why and how of every act of nature maybe he can explain why the wind here in Washington, D.C. is blowing southeast again as compared to what the local weatherman would say!

  21. @ srs:

    I’d avoid Mars Hill like I’d avoid cancer. If you are going to attend bring plenty of kool-aide. You need to have the glossy eyed look when you are done. 😯

  22. @ Eagle:

    CHBC is its own problem, but that’s not really my story to tell.

    You’re right about the confusing. I went to an Ivy league school, so my Christian group was FULL of the wannabe Jonathan Edwards. Full, I tell you. I had someone tell me that I would be a Calvinist if I *understood* the Bible. Seriously. I don’t normally claim pride as one of my sins, but let me tell you having my intelligence insulted to my face made me burn just a bit.

    My response though shut that line of discussion down from here to eternity. I looked him straight in the eye and said “I don’t care. The whole issue sounds dumb to me and I’m not interested. I’m gonna get another slice of pizza.” The look in my eye and the tone of my voice said “I dare you to think I’m less of a Christian than you. I. Dare. You.” The only thing arrogant intellectuals love most is the chance to prove they’re right and clever in verbal banter and the only thing they hate most is for someone to flat-out refuse to engage them. And the only things a group like the Calvinistas need is a fawning audience and a poor sap to obliterate. One fell swoop, I denied them everything. I know they were still floating their ideas around, but they never dared float them at me.

  23. Speaking of John Piper…I remember when I was in Crusade and this article by Piper made the rounds.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/missions-and-masturbation

    I can’t tell you how many times it popped up in my email. Given the shock value that John Piper has today and how he is always pushing the envelope…
    (comment edited)

    I mean after all…it is THE John Piper. He’s the 67th Book of the Bible!!! And he has more authority than God himself. Remember touch not the Lord’s anointed…even if he stands at 3’2″.

  24. Every year, I want the church to grow.

    Okay, basic economics time. You can’t maintain exponential growth like megachurches want forever. Too much exponential growth like that, is usually called a bubble and it almost always explodes pretty nastily (see 2008 financial crisis). Healthy investments don’t work this way either. So if Driscoll is an “entrepreneur” like that one commenter claimed, he should probably study how businesses/investors have to operate in the real world. Just because I want my 401(k) to get a 25% return every year doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, and I certainly wouldn’t be justified in becoming a “total despairing mess” when it didn’t.

    You seem like a far leftist who might even be a socialist at heart. You clearly do not understand the idea of being an ambitious person.

    So now if we disagree with Mars Hill’s model, we’ve rejected capitalism wholesale? Also he may want to be careful with ambition – it comes in degrees and some of them are not smiled upon in the Bible.

  25. @ Caitlin:

    You know the air here in Washington, D.C. is polluted. That said…when SGM left Gaithersburg, Maryland the quality of life improved. Heck my property values went up when CJ left. That and you didn’t have to see all the CJ clones (called CJ 2.0)

    Yes hard to believe in the city home to 535 distinct people. Now if only we can get CHBC to move to Louisville. Then at least CJ wouldn’t have to run as far. 😯

  26. @ Caitlin:

    You know what blows my mind. Is why Mark Driscoll is popular among some members of the US military. I mean…you know what the ethical code you abide by at the Naval Academy in Annapolis. Or the US Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. Why would a military officer be so impressed with Driscoll’s books especially since 7 were plagiarized. Do you think a Cadet at the Air Force Academy or Naval Academy or West Point can plagiarize 7 papers?

    At the very least if I were going to look into Driscoll I’d start with DA Carson since Driscoll has plagiarized him. Why not go to the original source.

  27. Eagle wrote:

    Some thoughts on the Great and Honorable John Piper.

    John Piper excommunitweeted Burger King last weekend for having multicolored wrappers for its sandwiches (and for marketing to the GLBT community). Not for crummy food.

  28. @ Eagle:

    My guess is that they don’t get the chance to look much past the tough guy exterior. If/Once they do, they’d probably laugh him off the stage. My family is a military family (One cousin just graduated from west point in May) and though I’ve never run it by them, I know they don’t have a lot of respect for guys who act tough but can’t back it up. My other cousin the Marine regularly gets bloodied, bruised, and otherwise disfigured in the course of his work, he’s not gonna be impressed with a guy trying to set up cage matches for Jesus or whatever that was. Posturing masculinity doesn’t play well with that crowd.

  29. @ Caitlin:

    I LOVE your comment about not caring. I have never understood why people want to stand around, argue, and burst blood vessels about how it is we are drawn to The Lord. If we agree on Jesus is the way, why is this such a big deal and why am I somehow lesser if I don’t want to fully commit to a position? I have always looked at it as a strength that I will not simply believe what I’m told or parrot talking points. It is more mature to fully study and weigh these things and work through them over time. And you know what, Jesus doesn’t care either. The thief on the cross who went to paradise with Christ sure never heard of Calvinism.

  30. mirele wrote:

    John Piper excommunitweeted Burger King last weekend for…for marketing to the GLBT community.

    They are pandering to the gay community.

  31. Anon wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    John Piper excommunitweeted Burger King last weekend for…for marketing to the GLBT community.

    I’ve had an observation over the past 25 yrs of pastors who are vehemently against something. mostly Pentecostal large name pastors who rail against adultery and promiscuity that are shortly thereafter photographed at the brothel and I just have to wonder sometimes if the pastors who speak the loudest are the ones mirroring their own sin. Ted Haggard is a good example of a man that joined up with the most extreme gay hating group and shortly thereafter his male lover apparently spoke to the press…

    They are pandering to the gay community.

  32. srs wrote:

    srs

    I plan to be there as well. I think I’ll pass,even though the Martians have bought the building where I once worked, and I’d be curious to see it…

  33. @ Caitlin:
    I can relate. I didn’t go to an Ivy League school (although some of my family did…I’m the dumb one). I do, however, have about 30 graduate level credit hours in Greek, etc., etc. Now, I was a Calvinist at the time, but someone objected in a small group, and one of the other group members started sort of berating her. I’m afraid I really tore into that guy. I think I ended with something like “So all those millions of Christians before Jon Calvin came along were just idiots? It took a French lawyer to unlock the deeper mysteries of God? That last part was an intentional jab since this guy was an Extreme Patriot and France had just decided not to support our second war in Iraq. Anyway, I feel your pain. Totally obnoxious.

  34. Hester wrote:

    Okay, basic economics time. You can’t maintain exponential growth like megachurches want forever.

    Actually, you can’t even maintain linear growth forever. Unless you are Bernie Madoff.

  35. sam h wrote:

    I read the article and especially about the guy talking his wife out of law school, and the header way up there about CFBM having zero female board members, and I just wanted to say that the acts 29 church down the street from me is not like that anymore, they actually have appointed female deacons. I copy/pasted from their web page just to prove it. (I took off their last names)http://www.gracecovonline.com/about-us/leadership.html
    RENAE
    Deacon of Hospitality
    TARAH
    Deacon of Mercy
    EVA
    Deacon of Administration
    RONDA
    Deacon of Grace Kids Nursery
    BECKY
    Deacon of Mercy

    Mercy, Hospitality, Nursery … have you noticed, sam, that all of these are “womanly” pursuits? The only one that could be done by men or women is “Administration”, which is very likely a secretarial position.

    I’ll believe an Acts 29 church is different when I see men handling the mercy and hospitality while the women are making real decisions and having a true voice.

  36. I want everything – because I want to win.

    My question is: win at what exactly? Same question to Brooke up there: win big at what for Jesus? Why does Christ need Mark Driscoll to win?

    The fact is: He doesn’t. He’s already won.

  37. I’m very, very bad… When I read Mike Anderson’s resignation letter, I immediately wondered to whom he’d sent it (fuzzed out). Hm… April something of ’13, apparently. Hmm… Must have been Pastor _____. Hmmm… Did Pator ____ discuss this letter with Pastormark TM? Hmmm… . is Pastor _____ still with Mars Hill himself? Checking MH website– Still listed as a pastor… But very odd job description– “Pastor ____ was most recently the______ He’s served at Mars Hill since_____” What??? They don’t tell us what he does now??? Checking FB… Moved to California this March… Checking elsewhere– one of the handful remaining of the 4 and 20 elders of ’07 (infamous for abdicating their authority, like Adam). Wait— Pastormark’s TM “right-hand man” in 07!! He was “King” long before Turner became the official “King”!! Later “lead” of fastest-growing group of Martians!! Now, they don’t say what he’s doing at all– just what he did recently. One foot out the proverbial bus, perhaps? On his way, perhaps, to being Ex-Pastor _____. Will update when I find out.

  38. Sam H:

    My brother was an AA member for years. I saw the changes in him, and did some research about them.

    There are many ex AA members who have blogs and podcasts exposing that AA is ineffective, that some of their members prey on newcomers (called “13 stepping”), and they are into victim blaming.

    My brother unfortunately picked up the victim blaming shtick from AA, so I no longer share personal information with him.

    I also read on the ex AA blogs and sites that it is very typical that when anyone says anything critical about AA somewhere, a current AA member will jump in to defend AA.

    There are alternatives to AA out there.

  39. Tikatu wrote:

    sam h wrote:

    I read the article and especially about the guy talking his wife out of law school, and the header way up there about CFBM having zero female board members, and I just wanted to say that the acts 29 church down the street from me is not like that anymore, they actually have appointed female deacons. I copy/pasted from their web page just to prove it. (I took off their last names)http://www.gracecovonline.com/about-us/leadership.html
    RENAE
    Deacon of Hospitality
    TARAH
    Deacon of Mercy
    EVA
    Deacon of Administration
    RONDA
    Deacon of Grace Kids Nursery
    BECKY
    Deacon of Mercy

    Mercy, Hospitality, Nursery … have you noticed, sam, that all of these are “womanly” pursuits? The only one that could be done by men or women is “Administration”, which is very likely a secretarial position.

    I’ll believe an Acts 29 church is different when I see men handling the mercy and hospitality while the women are making real decisions and having a true voice.

    thank you Tikatu, that’s exactly what I noticed too…they did this in response to people questioning why women couldn’t speak in their services and why they couldn’t hold any ministry office. so what they did was distort the meaning of the word deacon and apply it to the lady that always ran the nursery, and that lady that always answered the phone for the pastor, and that lady that probably was in charge of praying for women in the womens group, if they even allow women to have womens groups. this is a church that the women agree that their husbands will have total access to all communications they have, ie emails, phone calls, texts, etc. it is the “Acts29 Mysoginists”© group

  40. Dee wrote:

    Caitlin wrote:
    I’m not gonna explode on you for that, Dee. Most of us are crowd scene, at best, not starring roles.
    I love being in a crowd. So many people to meet and have fun with.

    There’s a sermon (I think, could be written down) by Schaeffer called ‘No little people, no little places’ which is about this – anywhere God acts is the big stage, even if seen by few people. It’s good stuff & this low-key, low-fi, human sized way of working has proved its worth over & over.

  41. Caitlin wrote:

    The only thing arrogant intellectuals love most is the chance to prove they’re right and clever in verbal banter and the only thing they hate most is for someone to flat-out refuse to engage them.

    Indeed so, and the way you did it is spot on. These pseudo-intellectuals are not really invested in the content of their alleged belief systems as much as they want people to think they are, or perhaps they themselves may think they are. What they want is to look good in their own eyes and in other people’s eyes, and what they think they have in some ideology or theological system is a way to personal power. It is a method of power over people. And when someone denies them that power, in whatever way, they are flushed out and seen to be what they are. And the way you describe you did it is really good.

    There is also the method of personal attack/diversion that basically says, “yeah, yeah I hear you but I can’t help being distracted by the fact you still have acne at your age. My brother still has acne. How do you treat yours, smart as you are, so I can tell my brother and it might help him.” This is the “yes, I hear you, but did you know your pants are unzipped” approach?

    Then there is what happens when the real thing (the real intellectual) is accidentally accosted by one of these pseudos. I have had the pleasure of seeing it happen a time or two, and it is beautiful to behold. The pseudo spouts off some adolescent nonsense in big vocabulary words to the real thing. The real thing then graciously (but I suspect with secret joy) does or pretends to take the pseudo seriously and replies with something so far beyond the knowledge or understanding of the pseudo that the pseudo is left dangling from a rhetorical swinging bridge over a deep chasm in full view of everybody. The real thing then just loses interest and moves on, and there is no one to rescue the poor dangler. It is a glorious thing to watch that happen. And the real thing does it with such incredible ease, like one would swat a mosquito.

    Both these approaches are all just ways of being dismissive. And “I am off to get pizza” is every bit as good, and deadly effective. The best treatment in a civilized society is to do whatever would work with the people who knock on the door handing out religious literature. Thank you for stopping by but I am really not interested at this time. Do be careful of that step down off the porch, I don’t want you to get hurt. (Smile. Close door.) In other words, your ideas are not important enough to me for me to even get upset/challenged/defensive about it.

    Put a star on your chart. I wish I had developed some skills at this at your age. I just stood around like a geek and watched it happen and made mental notes, for what that is worth, and flew under the radar while doing it. How much better to step up to bat and take a swing at it.

  42. sam h wrote:

    thank you Tikatu, that’s exactly what I noticed too…they did this in response to people questioning why women couldn’t speak in their services and why they couldn’t hold any ministry office.

    The same thing happened to me once at a non-profit where I was employed. They couldn’t afford (they said) to give me a raise, so they gave me a title. 🙁

    Just a token designed to appease….

  43. @ Caitlin:

    WARNING: Trigger for animal abuse.

    I personally wonder what the script for masculinity was in Driscoll’s family of origin. I heard a story recently from a friend in which it was made clear that the masculinity script in her extended family involved doling out tough “discipline” (i.e., mistreatment) to animals when they didn’t conform to the human’s wishes or inconvenienced the human in some way. The craziest story was from an uncle who was annoyed that his daughter’s hamster was slamming its water bottle against the cage while he was sleeping, so he went downstairs and drowned the it in its water bottle, then blew it dry with a hair dryer and returned it to its cage so his daughter would think it died naturally.

    So I wonder what dysfunctional model of manhood was taught to Driscoll, just like I wonder what model of manhood was taught to Michael Pearl.

  44. @ mirele:

    Well Greg Boyd needed a break. I mean to Piper he is the spawn of Satan and the one person Piper has tried to destroy.

  45. @ Eagle:
    Both Hitler and Mao used the coercive power of the state, including concentration camps and the death penalty, to control the population and suppress dissent, and did indeed try to indoctrinate the youth. In Hitler’s case this ultimately did not succeed, as the youth rebelled as they always do as they grow up and to the extent they were able during the war. They used to listen jazz on American forces’s radio, both absolutely forbidden, for example.

    Driscoll and Piper bear no comparison. You do not have to read their books, attended their churches or hear their sermons if you don’t want to. They have no means to enforce their wills unless through manipulation, something I cannot imagine Piper wanting to do going by what I have read of him.

    Having seen numerous of your posts, may I ask what John Piper has done to you that you hate him so much? I you reply ‘Ken, I don’t hate him, I disagree strongly with what he teaches and its fruit’ that is one thing, but to an outsider it looks as though you have got it in for him, that there is a personal vendetta going on here. This is all the more unfortunate (to say the least) when in other posts on other threads you berate fundamentalists and evangelicals for their lack of love. Motes and beams comes to mind. Undoubtedly there are areas of church life where you would be right to make criticisms, but any you may make will lose all credibility – and rightly so imo – if you constantly break Godwin’s Law or indulge in ad hominem attacks.

  46. @ Nancy:

    Yeah, I didn’t *have* to go with the pizza. I wasn’t an intellectual slouch either and I already had my lawyer-skills for verbal argument. I could have dismantled them pretty easily and did dismantle them under different circumstances (to a different person who wasn’t quite so… awful about it). That entire group of people needed to get their heads out of… well their own heads, to be honest. So one day I when I was a senior was asked to give a talk at our weekly meeting and I got up and said (I wrote it down)

    “Theology is dumb. Theology is for religion, and we aren’t a religion. John 3:16-17. That is all you have to know. Nowhere did Jesus say ‘I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me and with an M.Div.’ The disciples were probably illiterate. We have no real evidence that Jesus could read, learning at the temple could have been oral. And all around the world, Christians braver and better than you with no education at all are living it out in ways that you can’t even imagine, in ways that would scare you out of your mind and more than a few of you would crack under the pressure. Don’t talk to me about theology.” I then went on to describe what I thought it was supposed to be like, because you don’t drop a bomb like that and walk away. I didn’t win a lot of new friends, but I was a senior and it was time for truth-telling. Oddly enough, all the other women of the group were much impressed. Were they equally tired of all that nonsense?

    A lot of the guys were Classics majors on their way to seminary, and I know at least one didn’t get in because the seminary of choice actually wanted pastors, not Piper2.0. I try not to laugh at other people’s misfortunes, but this guy was not socially capable enough to hold someone’s hand while they were dying or give a young couple marriage counseling or… well much of anything. (Major warning sign: he could NOT interact with women. I’m not talking about him being one of those awkward people, he was actually a guy’s guy and pretty at ease with his buddies, but he had no empathy at all and couldn’t relate to people who weren’t just. like. him.- Not exactly a good ministry candidate, even if you can read Greek.)

  47. @ Hester:

    ACK. Thank you for the TW but seriously, that’s horrid. And so scary, people who abuse animals abuse human-animals too. (in fact, murdering a pet is abusive to the person. mother of pete….)

    Violence begets violence. MD needs counseling. Lots of unresolved issues there. I don’t like speculating on other people’s salvation-status, but I really hope God IS working through MD because he strikes me as a man in need of a savior. (DC Talk, represent.) Not that he’d admit it, but God works to heal the sin that we committed AND the sin that surrounded us as we live our lives.

    Lots of people who grow up in abusive environments do NOT go on to abuse themselves, because along the way they realize that what they experienced as children wasn’t normal. Therapy is often involved, etc. Something tells me MD thinks that was normal.

  48. @ Ken:
    I agree that Godwin’s law was broken and I deleted the comment. The word “Hitler” was not in our filter and I have added it.

    However, I have to disagree with you about WW2 Germany. Of course, some were coerced. But there were far more that bought into Fascism, especially since those in power cured the economy in the beginning of it all. There were many youth who were enamored of the strong leadership. Even more sadly, were many citizens who believed the lies told about the Jewish people. Youth played a big part in it. And the church was complicit. As long as the fascists left the churches alone, they kept their mouths shut. The church is often no different than the culture that surrounds it.

    We love to demonize others. It makes us feel strong, and even better, than others. This is seen in Jim Crow, the early discrimination against the Irish who settled in this country during the famine, etc. It’s always some people group, some religion, some skin color, some accent, a way of looking at the Bible that is different than they way I look at the Bible…

    It is seen in those who have achieved some form of adulation within certain movements in the church. Some Calvinists (like Sproul) look down their noses at Arminians, claiming that they are “barely Christians.” Many churches, filled with young people, have instituted what they believe to be “church discipline” which has turned into a witch hunt for those causing disunity by disagreement. Different groups don’t like charismatics, paedobaptists, creedalists, etc. Calvin allowed for the killing of Servetus because he didn’t toe the line, Luther despised the Jews, and the Inquistion “filtered” out the bad elements.

    Piper has exhibited a rather bizarre attitude towards women, claiming that they should not become muscular and to be very careful while giving road directions to a male so that his authority is not challenged. He tells us exactly how God is punishing people through tornadoes, claiming to know God’ mind- a very dangerous undertaking. This stuff is nuts when viewed outside of the close knit Piper fan club. But we all “excuse” our “man.”

    In fact, for many, as they leave a particular indoctrination, they wonder how they ever put up with it. Look at Mike Anderson. He forced his wife to forgo law school and have kids instead because he bought into Driscoll’s dictates on how to do marriage and family in a gospel™ manner.

    I could go on and on about the bizarre stuff we accept from those we follow. We excuse stuff because, after all, they are famous and godly.™ And, if there are crowds involved, it truly must be a work of God, right? Surely not all of those people can be wrong. Yet history has shown us that they can.

    As for Eagle, he is coming along just fine. Sometime in the next month we will be posting his story. When you see what he is done, you will probably be startled. Few Christians have ever taken forgiveness to the level that he has. In fact, in one church this past week, he was used as a sermon illustration.

    He is learning how to communicate in a way that is not offensive. He isn’t there yet but neither is John Piper and I would imagine that many think Piper is the epitome of Christian communication.

  49. @ Ken:

    Ken….you can criticize me all you want. I’m a big boy (well not for too much longer!) I’m fine having my views dissected in the court of public opinion. I’m okay with people disagreeing with me and am not insecure in that manner.

    First of all I have to ask…what churches or ministries were you involved in? In my case John Piper was viewed as the final authority. People were encouraging and passing his material around. And there was the peer pressure, which I admit I engaged in. But in Cru John Piper was seen as the final authority. Greg Boyd never stood a chance,and yes since Piper hated Greg Boyd, I did to. Every one on this board had their poison. For some it was SGM, others Mars Hill/Mark Driscoll, for me my poison was John Piper.

    I thought my life was going to be a waste unless I did something grand. Thereby I made some career decisions that today I would not have. In the process I also hit a brick wall due to how legalistic his garbage is. Also I had to live with giving my mother John Piper’s “Don’t Waste Your Cancer” to my Mom after she went through hell with pancreatic cancer. My Mom knows nothing about evangelicalism or fundamentalism but my Mom was so outraged by the pamphlet I gave her she called me on it years afterward. She was that upset.

    John Piper teaches a lot of garbage and in the process its cover in the verberge of what appears to be God honoring and designating. Since discernment is the biggest problem evangelicals have today many evangelicals can’t discern bad teaching or theology. Like Mike Anderson said, they are a moth attracted to the light. Mars Hill was not my light. My light was John Piper and I was fried, and I hurt myself, and loved ones close to me. Do you think John Piper gives a flying ^&%$ about the harm he has done. Look at how he handles his videos on domestic abuse or calling on God to destroy a tower in Dubai. He never owns up, never comes clean, he can’t say or do something sincere and admit he was wrong.

    Furthermore I also hold John Piper responsible for the mess in SGM and Mars Hill. He threw his support to CJ Mahaney and had to make a public statement by boldly talking about how he chose to be at Louisville to defend CJ. Likewise when Joanna Petry reached out to John Piper for help he gave her the cold shoulder. So Mark Driscoll was able to steamroll and hurt as many people as possible. John Piper held up Mark Driscoll and defended him in the past so, yes, he has blood on his hands also.

    As for my comments about Hitler and Mao. Let me state this….I stand by my words. And if you would take the time to read Joyful Exiles you would see that Joanna Petry wrote that she believed that if Mark Driscoll could have burned her husband at the stake he would have. When your driving factor is ideology the means always justify the end, because you are arriving at an end result. For once I’d like to hear some compassion from you Ken for the people who post at SGM Survivors, or Mars Hill sites.

    And in case you didn’t know in many fundagelical circles the 11th commandment is that one shall not disagree with John Piper.

  50. I do not understand why people have a problem with the airing of MH’s/MD’s “dirty laundry.” With a ministry of such public proportions, wouldn’t it be *unwise* to NOT air it? Anytime you have someone – or many someones – in the public sphere, spouting off how they think things should work, non-secular or not, their audience becomes bigger than just those members in a church building. Keeping it under wraps to be dealt with only internally is under-handed and deceitful to those who listened and followed on a global scale.

    Off-topic: baby girl is 100% better it seems. Ultrasound of kidneys revealed no abnormalities that would cause an infection!
    Also, this homeschooling-graduate-turned-homeschooling-mom is sending her kids to public school this fall. She is also considering going back to school to become an RN. Prayers much appreciated!

  51. sam h wrote:

    Tikatu wrote:
    sam h wrote:
    I read the article and especially about the guy talking his wife out of law school, and the header way up there about CFBM having zero female board members, and I just wanted to say that the acts 29 church down the street from me is not like that anymore, they actually have appointed female deacons. I copy/pasted from their web page just to prove it. (I took off their last names)http://www.gracecovonline.com/about-us/leadership.html
    RENAE
    Deacon of Hospitality
    TARAH
    Deacon of Mercy
    EVA
    Deacon of Administration
    RONDA
    Deacon of Grace Kids Nursery
    BECKY
    Deacon of Mercy
    Mercy, Hospitality, Nursery … have you noticed, sam, that all of these are “womanly” pursuits? The only one that could be done by men or women is “Administration”, which is very likely a secretarial position.
    I’ll believe an Acts 29 church is different when I see men handling the mercy and hospitality while the women are making real decisions and having a true voice.
    thank you Tikatu, that’s exactly what I noticed too…they did this in response to people questioning why women couldn’t speak in their services and why they couldn’t hold any ministry office. so what they did was distort the meaning of the word deacon and apply it to the lady that always ran the nursery, and that lady that always answered the phone for the pastor, and that lady that probably was in charge of praying for women in the womens group, if they even allow women to have womens groups. this is a church that the women agree that their husbands will have total access to all communications they have, ie emails, phone calls, texts, etc. it is the “Acts29 Mysoginists”© group

  52. Sorry, messed up my post. I meant to ask – if the husbands have access to all their wives emails, texts etc, does it work the other way too? Do wives have access to husbands’?

    And what is the rationale for this?

  53. Dee,

    Thank you for the excellent analysis. This blog fleshes out much of the problem at MH.

    Bottom line, one word describes something that went wrong with MH – and not only at the top. It’s pride. Sometimes churches become prideful because they are being used to spread the gospel and are seeing the harvest. But a church that plants, or waters, or harvests, is still only the servant of God, and it is Him that provides the increase. If you read some of the posts of people from MH on FB or other places, you can see some of the problem – they had a bit of a problem thinking they were “it” for the NW US.

    Overall, this situation will be good for the church – it’s a matter of discipline and it may well come out better. One can only pray for that outcome.

    Again, a great blog, and I think you spelled out details in the clearest manner to date.

  54. @ dee:
    Dee – I don’t have some ‘thing’ about mentioning the Third Reich and its leader (I assume the H name is now banned!) I only think ill-thought out comparisons with that era and equating them with church bust-ups in the modern West belittle the suffering of that previous generation, some of whom on a couple of occasions I have heard personally. It’s something that stays with you. The inescapable horror of it all. I have also seen a fair amount of recent German history programs on TV here which can bring home what actually happened. There were a load of 60th anniversary programs a few years ago.

    On the other hand, I wouldn’t want to belittle the damage in-fighting and manipulation can do to believers who are subjected to this in churches, often made worse by the pettiness of the things being disputed. I suppose all I am saying is we need to keep a sense of perspective.

    The church and Third Reich is a big subject, and many Christians were seriously compromised during its existence. Many paid with their life as well, and I sometimes wonder just what I would have done in the same circumstances if my claim to be ‘disciple’ was ever likely to require me to lay down my life.

  55. mirele wrote:

    John Piper excommunitweeted Burger King last weekend for having multicolored wrappers for its sandwiches (and for marketing to the GLBT community). Not for crummy food.

    Funny you mention that here, Mirele. I just posted today on John Piper and LGBT burgers. The man can be such a menace to the gospel of Christ.

  56. @ Eagle:
    I wasn’t criticising you personally at all, I have no desire to do so. If you have had hassle in churches, this is the last thing you could do with.

    I was criticising what you posted, which is different. The reasons I have already outlined with Dee above, so I don’t need to repeat them. I hope you will at least mull this over.

    I have no objection to you stating your reasons for rejecting the ministry of John Piper, providing you avoid personal attacks. We are indeed called to discern and judge. I can relate to some of what you said – I’ve been there with the big name ministries and sacrificing your career in the mistaken idea that you are serving the kingdom of God in doing so. (That may be required on occasions if you are specifically called to do so, acquiring material riches is not a Christian value, but you also need to ensure you can provide for a family over the long term as well.) I’ve seen worldly church leadership who mimick the ungodly, uncaring attitudes of the management style of modern corporate business, who espoused a ‘Thatcherite’ Christianity – judging a church on whether it was ‘viable’ or not, forgetting church is not an institution, but made up of people.

    As for compassion for survivor blogs, I have never read any nor am that likely to do so for my own reasons. I have mixed feelings about them. What has happened in churches on the other side of the globe is too remote for me to relate to. It doesn’t mean I don’t care as such, but it would be hypocrisy to pretend to care personally for people I don’t know. I can however relate to those I have personally known who have been kicked in the spiritual teeth, again trying to keep this in perspective.

  57. @ May:

    While I doubt he would put it as inelegantly as Mark Driscoll, Piper is just as interested in “winning” and to win you have to double down on the intensity. So… not just you.

  58. Game of Thrones, now this. Making Christians feel guilty for watching a TV programme or eating a burger from a certain establishment. Is this what he thinks is important?

  59. If these verses below are the standard, then MH and Mark Driscoll et al totally FAIL. I agree that pride is the root of all of this and an evil sense of entitlement….
    If you want to talk doctrine–look at this MD:

    James 3:13-18. 13″ Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.”

  60. From the main body of the post:,

    Most Christians are not going to change the world or lead epic lives and that is just fine with God. (I am ready for the explosion on this one.)

    No explosion here Dee. Well maybe a Chinese firecracker? While it’s true that the vast majority of us will never make it to the ranks of the glitterati (they have their reward) in Christendom, we little people can most certainly change the world. Each kind word, each small act of compassion, is a drop in a vast ocean, and what is an ocean but a multitude of drops?

  61. Muff Potter wrote:

    in Christendom, we little people can most certainly change the world.

    You remind me of Tolkien, Muff, when he had Elrond tell the fellowship:

    “The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet it is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: Small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.”

    I wonder if Tolkien had Paul’s words in mind: “God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.” (1 Cor. 1:27.)

  62. @ May:

    He is telling his followers what they want to hear. Just like H*** in Germany did. You can’t be a leader if nobody follows.

  63. @ Nancy: and it turns into Dr. Seuss’ Yertle the Turtle in a nanosecond. (AFAIK, the storybook is about A.H., though most who are over a certain age probably know that.)

  64. Long time lurker, first time comment. I love what you guys have to write and comment about.

    May, your comment about Piper getting more reactionary and hate-filled reminded of some of John MacArthur’s recent comments, esp. in light of the adult homosexual child, professing Christ.

    I def. agree with that sentiment, May. There are many moving parts and I am not excusing anyone’s crazy pastoral ideas. However, I think these guys are getting angrier because they are trying to circle the so-called wagons for Christ and I think they also see a world and country going to hell in a hand basket.

    I hate to break the news to these guys, but the 1950s are over and there is nothing new under the sun and no America is not the exceptional wunnerful place they imagine it to be. Sure, I love living here and enjoy the benes, but we have had, are having, and always will have problems, upheaval, and change in this country.

    The JMACs, Pipers, Driscoll, Calvins are trying to cling to some ideas/notions that I think the bible and Christ would find offensive. There anger, crotchetiness, hate-mongering is just one way they are responding. Again, please don’t think I am excusing them, just trying to agree and flesh out your comment a little more, May.

    As a also wrote, I think there is def. much more going on, but this is one angle that I wanted to chime in on because I def. agree with you.

    P.S. These guys also like to be in charge and I think project a false sense of humility to the masses, esp. there own groups. What I find most intriguing is that for a bunch of Sola Scriptura guys, they sure have a lot to say and write about the bible. I thought they believed that is all one needs. Obviously, not to these guys, at least in what they do and say.

  65. I was just thinking…where is HUG? With my Mao referneces in indoctrination of Youth, and the Cultural Revolution posts…where is HUG when you need him?

  66. No More Perfect wrote:

    Off-topic: baby girl is 100% better it seems. Ultrasound of kidneys revealed no abnormalities that would cause an infection!
    Also, this homeschooling-graduate-turned-homeschooling-mom is sending her kids to public school this fall. She is also considering going back to school to become an RN. Prayers much appreciated!

    Yay!!! Good for you. i have a friend who went back to earn her RN in her 50s and she loves it!

  67. pk47tech wrote:

    Again, a great blog, and I think you spelled out details in the clearest manner to date.

    Thank you.

    As for spreading the gospel, after 6 years of reading and listening to Driscoll, he seems to preach a gospel that benefits him.

  68. @ Eagle:

    Everybody indoctrinates youth. Look, for example, at the laws against home schooling in Germany and note the reasons that the government gives for those laws.

    And then in the US check out the math curriculum in common core, for example. The math problems are social indoctrination, sometimes good or not depending on one’s POV. Meanwhile we have math teachers lamenting that they are not allowed to teach naked math, and no wonder the kids can’t do the math. (NC is in the process of bailing out of common core, if the governor signs the bill. Maybe even if he does not; just have to see.)

  69. Ken wrote:

    I don’t have some ‘thing’ about mentioning the Third Reich and its leader

    I don’t think that you do. I, too, have been concerned and have banned the use of Hitler as an example. This is not due to the aptness of the comment. Merely, as you put it apt to go down a difficult road.

  70. @ Tim:
    I don’t get this at all. One only need look at the goings on Jesus’ day. The Romans were known for their rather risqué behavior. Jesus did not go around saying “Good-bye” to anyone.

  71. May wrote:

    Sorry, messed up my post. I meant to ask – if the husbands have access to all their wives emails, texts etc, does it work the other way too? Do wives have access to husbands’?

    And what is the rationale for this?

    no the wives are to be in submission, they don’t get to read anything of their husbands. the husband is under the same authority of the elder/group leader over them. it is called mark driscolls acts 29 complimentarianism. the headship of Christ over the leader (who interprets the bible as he sees it) the headship of the church over the men, the men rules (leads) the women and children. if you read joyful exiles by jonna petry as mentioned above, the same kind of thing was what caused the problems at mars hill. Mark driscoll over everyone, anyone that disagrees or asks questions is being ‘divisive’ and not submitting to MD God given oversight. the men are told to keep their wives in line if they are not ‘in order’ which meant if they question anything leadership does. Acts 29 was started by MD and someone else I cant remember. to become part of A29 church network the pastor/elder had to go to training at MD re-train re-surgence whatever training camps and the literature that was required and suggested was all by MD and Piper and another guy. and the pastor/leaders have to get re-doctrinated during the year continually. I don’t understand how so many churches thought this was a Godly church or church planting method. now there are many ACTs 29 churches and even if Mars Hill fully destroys itself there are lots of little Mars Hills all over the country.

  72. Ken wrote:

    it would be hypocrisy to pretend to care personally for people I don’t know.

    Could you explain this further? I care for a number of people that I do not know personally. Take children sold into slavery, for instance. There are many people who care for people all over the world that they have never met. I can assure you that I am not pretending.

  73. Muff Potter wrote:

    we little people can most certainly change the world. Each kind word, each small act of compassion, is a drop in a vast ocean, and what is an ocean but a multitude of drops?

    I agree with you on this. However, these guys are talking on a much grander scale. They see themselves as Charlemagne, conquering the world with them as the visionary, pilot and conqueror. Remember John Piper saying that God was going to bring down that big building in Dubai?

  74. @ Nancy:

    The problems are not in the Common Core. They are someone’s attempt to put together things to sell to schools in states that adopt the Common Core. All the Core is is a list of skills that students should be able to perform at each grade level, so that kids who move from one state to another will be at the same grade level.

  75. OCDan wrote:

    I hate to break the news to these guys, but the 1950s are over and there is nothing new under the sun and no America is not the exceptional wunnerful place they imagine it to be. Sure, I love living here and enjoy the benes, but we have had, are having, and always will have problems, upheaval, and change in this country.

    Actually, the Ozzie an Harriet world never really existed. That is why we got the explosions of the 60s. It was always simmering underneath: racism, pedophilia, substance abuse, etc. So long as you showed up on Sunday and looked good, then all was well, even when it wasn’t.

    In fact, it would be interesting for a megapastor to time travel back to the 50s and see just how far their rhetoric would get them.

    I am so glad that you commented.

    OCDan wrote:

    What I find most intriguing is that for a bunch of Sola Scriptura guys,

    The latest craze is not to let home Bible studies actually study the Bible. They are to study the sermon. Can you imagine studying Driscoll’s sermon of Queen Esther and his belief that she was a slut?!

  76. @ An Attorney:

    Well, in order to get out of that loop, or whatever, NC is bailing out. Wherever the problem comes into the picture and however it got into the common core industry, as in developed curriculum materials, we are moving on.

  77. Eagle wrote:

    I was just thinking…where is HUG? With my Mao referneces in indoctrination of Youth, and the Cultural Revolution posts…where is HUG when you need him?

    HUG left a post on here a couple days ago that he is on vacation and has a broken wrist, so he will be absent for a couple of weeks.

    Follow up info for Sam H, from my post above:

    “Twelve Steps to Danger: How Alcoholics Anonymous Can Be a Playground for Violence-Prone Members”
    http://www.propublica.org/article/how-alcoholics-anonymous-can-be-a-playground-for-violence

    There are strong similarities between what goes on in some AA meetings and among the members and the abuse this blog exposes about churches.

  78. dee wrote:

    I don’t think that you do. I, too, have been concerned and have banned the use of Hitler as an example.

    Can we refer to Hitler as Charlie Chaplin?

    Did anyone else here see the movie “Idiocracy” and recall the “Time Machine” scene with Charlie Chaplin as Hitler?
    I mean this:
    Idiocracy: the UN unnazied the world – forever
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd2ydct3rBU

  79. dee wrote:

    I don’t get this at all. … Jesus did not go around saying “Good-bye” to anyone.

    Which makes the arrogance in Piper’s tweet even more inexplicable for a man who supposedly loves Jesus and his gospel so much. I just don’t get it either, Dee.

  80. And that is a big mistake. Someone convinced the Tea Partiers that the Common Core was something that Obama or his minions were trying to foist on the American public as a precursor to making the country a socialist paradise. What the Common Core actually is is a joint project of the top education administrators in the 50 States and some other jurisdictions (e.g., DC), together with the National Governors Association, to solve the problem of our mobile society resulting in kids not being able to transfer schools into a different state without problems as to what they are supposed to know by each grade level being different. Especially with military and corporate relocations at an all time high.

  81. OCDan wrote:

    What I find most intriguing is that for a bunch of Sola Scriptura guys, they sure have a lot to say and write about the bible. I thought they believed that is all one needs.

    Point 1 of 2

    Seconding Victorious’s welcome, OCDan!

    Point 2 of 2

    Couldn’t agree more with that comment; no preacher, by definition, believes in the sufficiency of scripture. Nor, imho should they.

  82. At the risk of seeming like an enforcer for some shady organization, I have removed two comments which I found amusing and not out of the realm of possibility. However, saying someone definiteively “is” something can be misconstrued by some. You can say the same thing in a slightly different way. 

    So, for example, one could say that “there are those who have been involved in anti-homosexual lobbying who have been found to be gay. George Reckers is one of those. Therefore, is it beyond the realm of possibility that Joe Famous might also be covering up for something?” It raises the possibility without a definite, albeit amusing, declaration.

    As for Joe Famous being demented, that again is not beyond the realm of possibility. Perhaps it could be said as “As people age, there is always the possibility that reasoning skills or memory is declining. Is it possible that someone could be showing the effects of age?”

    Please don’t be mad at me. 

  83. Actually, it was pretty much universal in the development phase, but then some people started complaining about “dictates from Washington” (it wasn’t!!!!), and with our governor, Washington is the home of the Devil, and anything that might be from DC is demonic. There is a facebook image quoting him as saying of George W. Bush: “He did a really great job of defending us from freedom.”

  84. Nancy wrote:

    Meanwhile we have math teachers lamenting that they are not allowed to teach naked math, and no wonder the kids can’t do the math. (NC is in the process of bailing out of common core, if the governor signs the bill. Maybe even if he does not; just have to see.)

    Good for them and bless Providence! Isn’t it astonishing what the peasantry can do when they stand up on their hind legs? My daughter in law and her group were quite instrumental in getting rid of esoteric & exotic forms of arithmetic (TERC Investigations) from the elementary curriculum in her children’s school district. They now have a syllabus that uses the tried and true arithmetic algorithms so crucial to good algebra skills down the road.

  85. May wrote:

    Is it just me, or is John Piper is getting increasingly reactionary and hate-filled?

    I first encountered JP in my seminary readings, and at the (now defunct) Jonathan Edwards Institute colloquiums in Annapolis, in the mid-to-late 90s. At the time he struck me as an above-average Reformed Baptist who had some overzealous applications of Jonathan Edwards’ theology of sanctification. In one seminar, he stated that he believed that people who didn’t feel a deep emotional component to their faith were likely going to hell. But, distressing as that was, it was at least focused on the inner Christian life. This culture warrior JP? This is something new to me, granting I didn’t follow him or his works closely after I left seminary…

  86. dee wrote:

    The latest craze is not to let home Bible studies actually study the Bible. They are to study the sermon. Can you imagine studying Driscoll’s sermon of Queen Esther and his belief that she was a slut?!

    Worryingly, this trend has arrived in the UK. I recently was talking to an elder of a large church in Edinburgh who said they are planning to introduce this to the church small groups. Oh, and they’re trying to increase ‘accountability’ within the groups too apparently.

  87. Tim wrote:

    I don’t get this at all. … Jesus did not go around saying “Good-bye” to anyone.
    Which makes the arrogance in Piper’s tweet even more inexplicable for a man who supposedly loves Jesus and his gospel so much. I just don’t get it either, Dee.

    I think they’re all copying this phrase from whoever wrote ‘Farewell, Rob Bell’ – oh, hang on, was it Piper who said it? I believe Rachel Held Evans was bid farewell too.

    The pope will decide who to excommunicate, after all.

  88. sam h wrote:

    the wives are to be in submission, they don’t get to read anything of their husbands. the husband is under the same authority of the elder/group leader over them. it is called mark driscolls acts 29 complimentarianism.

    Mark Driscoll reads all his wife’s emails BEFORE she reads them. Apparently so he can ‘protect’ her in case anyone emails anything mean.

    It’s uber-controlling behaviour and the classic sign of an abuser. I fear for Grace Driscoll. I have for a long time.

  89. An Attorney wrote:

    Someone convinced the Tea Partiers that the Common Core was something that Obama or his minions were trying to foist on the American public as a precursor to making the country a socialist paradise.

    I’m not convinced that the connection to the ‘tea party’ is anything more than incidental. I think it’s more grounded in the concern of parents who have allies even amongst high level academics who also recognize the lunacy of esoteric math curricula being mandated for the ‘common core’. It does make one wonder though who benefits from a particular direction the ‘common core’ may take, the kids or the folks who print and market the materials.

  90. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In other fitba’ news, it is half-time in the first semi-final and the World Cup has officially gone mad…

    Unbelievable! Germany has humiliated Brazil.

  91. Anyhoo, back on target to the gist of the main post/article by Dee:

    I’m glad Anderson woke up before it’s too late. I’m glad he realized that his wife is the real metric for meaning in his life and not some misplaced allegiance to the Bible or the men who do the interpreting of Holy Writ.

  92. @ Eeyore:

    In one seminar, he stated that he believed that people who didn’t feel a deep emotional component to their faith were likely going to hell.

    Well besides being disturbing as all get out, that’s waaaaay out of wack with social data about what “faith” meant in its NT societal context.

    http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.php

    “‘Faith’ is not a feeling, but our pledge to trust and be reliable servants to our patron (God), who has provided us with tangible gifts (Christ) and proof thereby of His own reliability.”

    Note: Holding in the above is not claiming that psychology is invalid, just pointing out that the ancients were far more concerned with the collective/group than with the individual. He’s not advocating replacing our culture with that of the ancients ala Doug Phillips – note esp. the part where he says a personal testimony may work well in evangelism today, though it wouldn’t have in the ancient world at all.

  93. @ Muff Potter:

    The Common Core elements are standard mathematics, the normal usual stuff, that was taught in some of the best public schools in the country. The issue was agreeing on the skills that should be achieved by each grade level. So the Common Core elements were to be rigorous, so that every HS graduate would be prepared to go to college or a trade school and apply/use math in STEM courses, and of course learn more advanced math as appropriate. BTW, even social scientists need to know math at a fairly sophisticated level. There was nothing esoteric in the Common Core standards.

  94. @ An Attorney:

    The esoteric stuff came about because some people decided that they would be able to sell new text books and learning software to schools and parents, but to sell those, they needed to look “different”, so that is where the esoteric stuff arose. Otherwise it was just the same old stuff, just on a common schedule, that would have everyone reach a certain level of skill by the time they left HS.

  95. @ Nancy:

    Nancy, respectfully, what you contend is simply not the case. As An Attorney says, Common Core was a collaborative effort to come up with common standards for student achievement. In particular, its emphasis on foundational concepts and critical thinking is very much needed after more than a decade of No Child Left Behind under which there was such pressure to get good test scores that many taught to the test (and this was even encouraged via carrot and stick of rewards and punitive actions), with the result that we have many students who just want the right answer without understanding the concepts and applying them to solve various problems, without really learning, and without being able to think critically and develop a problem-solving process for themselves. Both my wife and I are believers and we have both been in public education for decades. And we’ve both witnessed many unfounded attacks on and conspiracy theories about public education. The Common Core as socialist programming by Obama conspiracy is just the most recent.

    Also, as an aside, the contention that “everyone indoctrinates youth” is not true. There are those of us who actually try to teach them and help them learn to think for themselves. We may be a minority (though I’d like to think not), but we are definitely still here.

  96. @ May
    I have been told that a pastor who came from a well known church in Edinburgh to a church in Northern Ireland has managed to split the church with nearly 200 leaving to form another church. Including a lot of leaders. The ones who have left would be spirit led people and not in tune with the Calvinism of the new pastor. I wonder if we are talking about the same church

  97. On local news, the FBI, ATF, Texas Rangers and local police are digging up a well and draining pond of a former student of mine….they are looking for a “missing” body…narcotics, possible Aryan Nation involvement….the student is already in Huntville doing time, this might been added. Prayers for the family as they have to go through this ordeal….

  98. Eagle wrote:

    @ Ken:

    I thought my life was going to be a waste unless I did something grand. Thereby I made some career decisions that today I would not have.

    And in case you didn’t know in many fundagelical circles the 11th commandment is that one shall not disagree with John Piper.

    I hear you Eagle. Following John Piper’s teachings resulted in some serious chaos and marriage problems for us. We are healing and moving on, but I feel like those years the locust destroyed will never be restored.

  99. Hester wrote:

    Well besides being disturbing as all get out, that’s waaaaay out of wack with social data about what “faith” meant in its NT societal context.

    Writing the original reply stoked my curiosity. I did a web search for old JEI materials, and lo and behold, I found the transcript of one of the seminars JP gave at the first colloquium in 1997. The link is here…

    http://www.desiringgod.org/conference-messages/enjoying-god-and-the-transformation-of-culture

    The emphasis on emotional “enjoyment” of God is definitely there, but the difference between how he acts now vis a vis culture vs. what he said then is *very* fascinating. Very much indeed…

  100. dee wrote:

    agree with you on this. However, these guys are talking on a much grander scale. They see themselves as Charlemagne, conquering the world with them as the visionary, pilot and conqueror. Remember John Piper saying that God was going to bring down that big building in Dubai?

    as if this wasn’t bad enough, the NAR is teaching that we must conquer the evil in the world so that Jesus can return. it has spawned the dominionists, KC IHOP and Todd Bentleys Joel’s Army. they train for the ‘physical’ battle of the last days. the doctrine has crept in to so many churches. when Piper says things like that it seemingly backs up joels army, I mean they take it as a confirmation of their work. ‘see piper agrees that God will destroy the wicked in the last days and therefore we must be his servants in it. it is appalling to see how widespread this is.

  101. dee wrote:

    He is learning how to communicate in a way that is not offensive. He isn’t there yet but neither is John Piper and I would imagine that many think Piper is the epitome of Christian communication.

    this left me really speechless. I have never been anywhere where it was ok if I learn how to do things without condemnation. I am learning how to communicate also, I am learning so much because I got a lot distorted from being often abused. I make mistakes sometimes and it is hard to say so because people judge and condemn and excommunicate so quickly. I need to be able to be in a place where I can make mistakes and say so and I am amazed and have never heard anyone say what you said about eagle and it being ok. I still don’t know what to say. thank you Jesus for this blog

  102. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In other news, I have updated the gallery of my award-winning blog *: godsjobcentrestirling.wordpress.com/gallery.

    * Winner, Blog With The Most Self-Effacing Author, July 2014.

    rofl
    Definition of self-effacing (adj)

    Bing Dictionary
    self-ef·fac·ing
    1.modest and reserved: tending to be modest about your achievements and to avoid drawing attention to yourself in company

  103. May wrote:

    sam h

    Mark Driscoll reads all his wife’s emails BEFORE she reads them. Apparently so he can ‘protect’ her in case anyone emails anything mean.

    It’s uber-controlling behaviour and the classic sign of an abuser.

    Agreed. Abusive and a sign of someone who is incredibly insecure. He can wrap it up in pretty words that it’s for Grace’s protection, but the man is off the rails.

  104. dee wrote:

    At the risk of seeming like an enforcer for some shady organization, I have removed two comments which I found amusing and not out of the realm of possibility. However, saying someone definiteively “is” something can be misconstrued by some. You can say the same thing in a slightly different way.

    So, for example, one could say that “there are those who have been involved in anti-homosexual lobbying who have been found to be gay. George Reckers is one of those. Therefore, is it beyond the realm of possibility that Joe Famous might also be covering up for something?” It raises the possibility without a definite, albeit amusing, declaration.

    As for Joe Famous being demented, that again is not beyond the realm of possibility. Perhaps it could be said as “As people age, there is always the possibility that reasoning skills or memory is declining. Is it possible that someone could be showing the effects of age?”

    Please don’t be mad at me.

    not mad, very good point ty

  105. M. Joy wrote:

    Agreed. Abusive and a sign of someone who is incredibly insecure. He can wrap it up in pretty words that it’s for Grace’s protection, but the man is off the rails.

    I could never live with a woman who would put up with that nonsense. It is sick.

  106. An Attorney wrote:

    Actually, it was pretty much universal in the development phase, but then some people started complaining about “dictates from Washington” (it wasn’t!!!!), and with our governor, Washington is the home of the Devil, and anything that might be from DC is demonic. There is a facebook image quoting him as saying of George W. Bush: “He did a really great job of defending us from freedom.”

    I noticed this! it horrible, I wish all those people would listen to wade burlesons sermon that was on echurch last weekend. it shows biblically that even if we don’t agree with ceasar, we are to pray for those in authority and kings and governors etc. I have many friends on facebook and they are not afraid to speak evil of those in authority in our country, its getting out of control. with what I have found about some of the ‘extreme religious political right’ it makes me think that they should be investigated and watched. the people I know say that the SPLC is attacking the righteous, but this may be in some cases but what I have seen is militant people trying to overthrow the government because the commander in chief is ‘demon possessed’. they cant say they truly follow Jesus and make statements like that. there is way too much blind blocking of too many policies and proposals in this manner in my opinion. it has made it so there is no discussion and it is polarizing the nation, even great ideas are thrown out. and yes I think in some areas there has been overstepping the laws by the oval office, but the reaction to this has been mean and its making the situation worse, not better. anyway I do wish people that talk like that would listen to wades sermon, its about what is our position in Christ Jesus and what are we called to do really. I shared it on my facebook. but I don’t know if anyone listened. for a time I got caught up in this blind protesting everything and I was wrong. I would have voted against common core without even knowing what it was just because they said who proposed it. its kinda a contagious attitude as we see the world get darker and darker. I pray often to not get entangled in that mentality.

  107. May wrote:

    sam h wrote:

    the wives are to be in submission, they don’t get to read anything of their husbands. the husband is under the same authority of the elder/group leader over them. it is called mark driscolls acts 29 complimentarianism.

    Mark Driscoll reads all his wife’s emails BEFORE she reads them. Apparently so he can ‘protect’ her in case anyone emails anything mean.

    It’s uber-controlling behaviour and the classic sign of an abuser. I fear for Grace Driscoll. I have for a long time.

    me too! I pray for her often.

  108. @ No More Perfect:

    I missed your comment this morning. That is great news about the baby. So, back to school for RN maybe. That is a really great idea for a lot of people. I hope you find it so for you. There is a quality of interaction with people that can be very satisfying (and a few difficult things) but all in all it sounds great. Best of everything to you.

  109. sam h wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In other news, I have updated the gallery of my award-winning blog *: godsjobcentrestirling.wordpress.com/gallery.

    * Winner, Blog With The Most Self-Effacing Author, July 2014.

    rofl
    Definition of self-effacing (adj)

    Bing Dictionary
    self-ef·fac·ing
    1.modest and reserved: tending to be modest about your achievements and to avoid drawing attention to yourself in company

    when I was younger and my hadn’t blown out yet, I used to hike in these mountains, (they remind me of yours)

    http://www.summitpost.org/enchantments/170944

  110. should say “blown out my knee” but as I get older it often feels like all of me is blown out lol

  111. Well, If Piper is getting? worse in his social pronouncements and theological claptrap, could that be the result of an age-related decline in cognitive capabilities? Or could the hardening of his positions on some of the things he talks about be related to arterial coagulation? Of course, neither of those would apply to Park Fiscal, so perhaps it is the cumulative result of listening to one’s own teaching and elaborating on it, in a natural process of weaning oneself from rationality by the hearing one’s own voice. Whatever the cause, this two have gone from bad to worse and are continuing on that path. (;-o)

  112. @ John:

    My daughter teaches HS in NC. She and her friends tell me that the math teachers in their school are pulling out their last hair and bewailing the math mandates and techniques which they think hamper their ability to teach math. So, you have your take on it. They have theirs. Our state legislature has taken up the issue because of extensive state wide complaints. That is about the size of it. We will see how it all plays out.

  113. It is not the Common Core that is the problem; it is the materials that are being selected to be used to achieve the goals. The old texts would have been good enough, but everyone bought into the idea of “let’s get all new”, and the result is frustrated teachers, including my spouse, who had to write all of the materials for math for her grade level, instead of using one of the three! sets of textbooks that were sitting in the closet of her classroom, any of which would have been appropriate to achieve the standards.

  114. “we are to pray for those in authority and kings and governors etc.”

    They are not “in authority”. We are a nation of “laws”. We obey “laws” not leaders unless they are enforcing the laws we are to obey.

    They are elected and servants. At least that is how it was supposed to be. But so many have it wrong in thinking are elected leaders have “authority”. They are to be representatives. Yes pray for them as our servants. It is no longer the 1st Century. :o)

  115. @ An Attorney:

    Bless her. That must be frustrating. My daughter has to do dramatic readings in english 1 inclusion classes because the kids (including the non-EC kids) are required to read material above their reading level. How can you read above your reading level? You can’t. So the teachers read the required material to the children during class time. My daughter, dual certified and with experience in first grade, pours all her dramatic skills into and the kids love it. Of course, it does not improve their reading skills, but it meets the common core standards. (I googled this. Apparently this is true and not just here.) To me, this looks like going back to an oral tradition of learning and away from a literate tradition for some students. But, by golly, it meets the standards and is totally in compliance with the fine print down to the punctuation. The school system sees to that, because everybody is scared of losing their job or getting sued if they fail to follow the rules 200%. Thing is, even so, the results are disappointing at best.

    Meanwhile, I have secretly taught my AG oldest grandchild some math techniques that have helped her keep up her constant streams of 100% s in math. Who should have to teach secret math techniques to children–what? with the blinds drawn so nobody knows? We did tell her to keep it to herself. And meanwhile the younger child, who is slap dab average has had to have extensive home teaching (after school and such) in reading techniques that she was not getting in school. Which, BTW her mom used with great success in first grade when she was doing that, before this other. But such is not how it is done now under this system. So we have academic success at our house basically in spite of the school. And academic success is how our whole family has survived and made its living in various fields for generations. We got that idea, you know. Dag gone a milk cow. Meanwhile, the math problems do make sure that the kids realize that there are issues with cutting down trees for lumber (a specific math problem I remember.) And yes, I consider that to be being done at the expense of math. Nobody, but nobody at my house is blaming the teachers. But a lot of folks in NC think we can do better than this, and the legislature has taken up the fight to change the system.

  116. Nancy, We did the same with ours. The first book was a bath toy book that they teethed on! Read to them every day from their first birthday on and had them watch the words. I sang them to sleep every night with old gospel hymns (in my bass key). When they got to kindergarten, they could read at 2nd-3rd grade level. Our son was recruited in first grade to work ahead to set up the light pen board for a handicapped little girl so the answers would be programmed into her machine for her by the aide. Both of them had difficulty with math and science teachers, b/c they already knew the concepts by the time they got there. We had to school our son to not correct the 8th grade science teacher when she made mistakes about science. He was reading Scientific American, Science, American Scientist, etc. at home and new all the latest.

    To me, the greatest need in education today is universal pre-school education. Too many kids get the pre-K a year or two behind their peers because both parents are working and the kids are being minded by other kids, neighbors, grandparents, etc. and not getting the early education in language and reading.

  117. An Attorney wrote:

    The esoteric stuff came about because some people decided that they would be able to sell new text books and learning software to schools and parents,

    While I’ll concede that common core standards (math) and what methods are used to achieve those standards are not one and the same, we’re still left with the how. Here’s an excellent you tube vid contrasting the tried and true, and the new (esoteric) and screwed. More and more responsible parents are saying no to the ‘new stuff’.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

  118. @ roebuck:
    I think your intention here isn’t reflected in your actual reply, because when read literally, it makes the woman responsible for the abuse she suffers.

    I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean that, but I’d love to know that I’m on the right track here. Thanks in advance for your help.

  119. sam h wrote:

    Bing Dictionary
    self-ef·fac·ing
    1.modest and reserved: tending to be modest about your achievements and to avoid drawing attention to yourself in company

    Yup, that’s me to a T. You have to admire people like me, because we’re so modest.

  120. dee wrote:

    Could you explain this further? I care for a number of people that I do not know personally.

    Certainly. Can I illustrate it this way. Think of the attacks on the WTC. We all saw the footage, it was horrific, no-one would say otherwise. Despite that, I couldn’t relate to this as it was too remote from me personally, possibly combined with the danger of getting hardened to this kind of thing if it is the fiftieth time you have seen it on the news. It’s not an indifference to suffering as such, but to wax lyrically about how awful I felt as though I had been emotionally involved would be to pretend to something that wouldn’t have been true. A kind of fake compassion if you like.

    Sometime later, I watched one of the anniversary programs about what happened, this time a detailed look at the firemen involved, what happened to them. Firemen are probably eveybody’s heroes for the job they do risking their lives for others. At some point there was a section on those who never came back, and at that point I sudddenly found tears streaming down my face. I can only think that the general horror had suddenly taken on a very human and very specific form, and that is what got to me. The impersonal had become personal, and that’s when it touched my emotions.

    Perhaps there is some parallel with child abuse or control-freak ego trip pastoring etc. It is horrific, but it will only really get to you when you encounter it in real flesh and blood in the form of people you actually know who are damaged. Sadly even in my small world this has happened on couple of occasions, and to echo a point you made in your piece, only in that world can I make much of a difference on the ground. And at the risk of stating the obvious, compassion is more something you demonstrate in action rather than something you feel.

  121. @ numo:

    You are right, numo, that came across rather awkwardly. I should have said “what kind of man would even desire such a relationship with a woman, his mate and partner?”. I certainly wasn’t blaming poor Grace.

    There are all kinds of relationships that people get into. I can’t say I really understand my own, much less anyone else’s. I do know that relationships have history, they develop and evolve. One day you look up and say “how did we get here?”.

  122. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    You are having a seriously deleterious effect on me, what with your “barking up the same hymnsheet” kind of talk. Now I have said “draw the blinds” for crying out loud. It is “draw the drapes” or else “close the blinds.” That kind of thing could become epidemic you know.

  123. Irish lass wrote:

    @ May
    I have been told that a pastor who came from a well known church in Edinburgh to a church in Northern Ireland has managed to split the church with nearly 200 leaving to form another church. Including a lot of leaders. The ones who have left would be spirit led people and not in tune with the Calvinism of the new pastor. I wonder if we are talking about the same church

    Yes, I think we’re talking about the same church. City-centre location.

    I had heard about that split, but didn’t realise the extent. Why on earth did they call such a man as pastor? That’s what I don’t understand. Do you know of any more specifics as to why people left – was it the Calvinism in the preaching or (more likely, I suspect) the outworkings of it being imposed on church life – discipline, etc? Would love to know more. I’m in a wilderness here, with my church and even my own dear husband (not being ironic – he is a darling :)) being Reformed and not ‘getting’ my myriad of problems with the movement.

  124. An Attorney wrote:

    perhaps it is the cumulative result of listening to one’s own teaching and elaborating on it, in a natural process of weaning oneself from rationality by the hearing one’s own voice.

    You have hit the nail on the head. These guys are so revered that they start to believe in their own publicity. It’s human nature. They’re getting more and more entrenched in their narrow little positions.

    I’ve heard John Piper brag about how missionaries the world over listen to his sermons weekly because they can’t get good (Reformed) teaching where they are – and that he is effectively a pastor to thousands around the world. Dee’s right – he certainly thinks he’s important.

  125. May wrote:

    I’ve heard John Piper brag

    I’ve heard him brag. I’ve seen the gleam in his eyes when he pukes out his opinions on the Bible all the while believing those opinions represent the very heart of God.

    I’ve seen and heard plenty enough of John Piper and other men who have been elevated far above where they deserve and above what their fragile egos can handle. It’s sick, really. And doesn’t appear to be getting any better.

  126. Ken

    I am wondering if some people may have a higher empathetic quotient, kind of like Deanna Troi of Star Trek TNG. For someone like myself, I feel a gut emapthy to many people and their situations, even if I do not know them. Take the World Trade Center. I cried seeing people jump of the Tower. Pictures of orphanages do me in. I can’t even watch the SPCA commercials. Needless to say,I get upset at each and every child abuse situation that I hear about. I will mosy likely never meet them to be able to express my compassion but I have compassion for them nevertheless.

    It was the gut empathy that caused me to believe a boy over a group of pastors. That same empathy also causes me to stand with each and every SGM survivor. The greatest blessing in my life is meeting people on this blog who have been through some awful things. Next week, I will have the privilege to eat dinner with some former SGM folks in DC. 

    After a few years in nursing, I became a bit perfunctory when I dealt with patients. I said and did the right things but the heart wasn’t there. I didn’t like the distance that I felt in my soul that some call “professional distance.” After my daughter became sick, I changed overnight. Suddenly, the pain that people suffer became very personal to me. 

    Let me tell you about one of my heroes, Todd Wilhelm, who is an American who works in Dubai. This man gave up his 9 Marks church in Dubai after going head to head with the leadership, protesting their pushing of books, etc by CJ Mahaney. He read the lawsuit and immediately, half a world away, stood up for these folks.He attempted to educate the people in the church but, of course, since Mark Dever is a BFF of Mahaney, they didn’t give a flip.

    Todd quit the church on prinicple. Because he didn’t resign and join another “approved” church immediately, he was denounced and put in the queue for discipline. You see, you cannot have compassion and conscience if it has to do with Mark Dever’s BFF. Todd had compassion half a world away and gave up his church, and of course, friendships because church people are not very good at being friends with someone who pushes the statis quo. I guess this would be called compassion with skin in the game.

  127. Mara wrote:

    I’ve seen the gleam in his eyes when he pukes out his opinions on the Bible all the while believing those opinions represent the very heart of God.

    I want to say this, and then we are headed to Myrtle Beach for a couple of days.

    Of the lines of “authority” that various christian traditions have respected, these guys have forsaken them all. The “church” line of authority was rejected by the calvinists at the time of the reformation. I am making no comment about the validity of this or not, merely illustrating a point. The “Holy Spirit” line of authority is tightly controlled and disparaged (J McA conference for ref) until they end up far away from even mainline christianity on this issue, and the “scripture” line of authority is tightly controlled to actually mean not scripture itself but rather what they teach that scripture means. In short, they have eliminated or sought to control every potential line of authority but themselves. Only they speak for God. And it is this that they want to spread around the world. Thing is, they are right or nearly right (or at least in agreement with a lot of other traditions) about just enough things to make it sound plausible to a whole lot of people, some of whom then buy into the whole shebazzle.

  128. Nancy wrote:

    In short, they have eliminated or sought to control every potential line of authority but themselves.

    Kind of like Henry VIII getting rid of the Catholic church in England so he could do what HE wanted being ruler of both church and state.

    Yep, I’ve often thought of these guys as little dictators, amassing power unto themselves all the while saying “Thus saith the Lord.”

    I wonder if God like them using His name like that.

  129. @ Mara:
    Mara wrote:

    I’ve seen and heard plenty enough of John Piper and other men who have been elevated far above where they deserve and above what their fragile egos can handle. It’s sick, really. And doesn’t appear to be getting any better.

    Hmmmm. If only someone had warned us….

    Someone important, someone influential…. someone like….Jesus.

    If only Jesus had said “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.”

    ….Oh, wait.

  130. @ dee:

    This is 100% true. I cannot even watch movies (FICTIONAL MOVIES) in certain moods or I will be sobbing my eyes out. We’re talking action movies. Disaster movies. Popcorn fare. I can’t help but imagine myself in that situation (even absurd ones) and the fear and destruction gets to me. Even in movies where they don’t really emphasize it, my mind goes there.

    When it comes to actual people? I was an absolute wreck for days after Sandy Hook and still feel a gut punch every time I think about it. I don’t even have children!

  131.   __

    News Flash: “In the ‘Sovereign Grace’ (SM) religious Eco-System, no one can possibly hear ‘the cry’ of sexually-abused children?
    *
    huh?
    *
    No one can hear the church children scream?
    *
    Good heavens!
    *
    Entrance music:Robert Cray – “I Was Warned…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiw6NQdG1SM
    *
    Are the newly polity’ed & re-org’d Sovereign Grace Churches (Inc.) ‘Conspicuously Reformed Pedophilia Continuists’ (TM) , Perhaps?
    *
    “When in doubt, throw the church out” (C)?
    *
    huh?
    *
    hmmm…the founder’s church got kicked outa the building they were occupying & leaseing for their Sunday morning ‘Reformed’ religious services?
    *
    What?!?
    *
    (that is what the building superintendent/property manager did to residing SGC (formally, SGM)  founder, Lewisville pastor C.J. Mahaney, and his church attenders astride the ‘lack’ of a strict no-toleration child sex abuse policy…)
    *
    They were ‘asked’ to leave…
    *
    I kid you not!
    *
    This church got kicked outa the building they were leaseing for their Sunday morning religious services?
    *
    THINK: “What is wrong with this picture?”
    *
    Q. Do ‘the rattling chains of pedophillia past’ (C) still continue to haunt this proverbial ‘religious continuist changeling’ (TM) despite the recent name change, for reasons that apparently, better now describe ‘their’ over-all mission?
    *
    Pray tell, what is to become of the ‘sovereignly lead’ (TM) children ‘precariously distressing’ (C) within their newly polity’d religiously occupied highly suspicious Maryland registered  (D02578730) [1] proverbial non-profit front organization?
    *
    Bad things happen to those who linger… ?
    *
    hmmm…
    *
    could b.
    *
    (sadface)
    *
    Sopy
    __
    Exit music by ‘Third Day’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6w21bUq3ag
    Bonus rerun:  “Scream if ya wanna go faster?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZnahd7zKE4

    Notes:

    http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-05/megachurch-pastors-leave-reformed-evangelical-network-amid-child-abuse-scandal

    [1] Maryland Charter search :
    http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/UCC-Charter/CharterSearch_f.aspx
    just type in: SOVEREIGN GRACE CHURCHES INC. (Dept. ID) D02578730

    ;~)

  132. Nancy wrote:

    Only they speak for God. And it is this that they want to spread around the world. Thing is, they are right or nearly right (or at least in agreement with a lot of other traditions) about just enough things to make it sound plausible to a whole lot of people, some of whom then buy into the whole shebazzle.

    Yep. Just, yes.

  133. dee wrote:

    Yay!!! Good for you. i have a friend who went back to earn her RN in her 50s and she loves it!

    50s, huh? Now I feel better about going back in my 30s!

  134. Mara wrote:

    I wonder if God like them using His name like that.

    So here’s the thing. I’m comfortable saying “I wonder if God likes them using His name like that.” But I’m *un*comfortable saying “God doesn’t like them using His name like that.”

    And I think that’s why these people have so much power and influence. Other people, people who are humble toward God are caught in this catch-22. The Speak-For-Gods (and in this case I’m not limiting to the Calvinistas) have gone to a place that the humble fear to go. The humble don’t dare speak for God, so they aren’t going to more pointedly contradict the Speak-For-Gods, that’s what makes them humble. So, like so many things in life, the people who are willing to break the rules are the ones who win, because the rule-followers can’t even play their game.

    This situation in secular life leads to guys like Batman. The fantasy of the perfectly good person who doesn’t follow the rules but you can trust him to do what’s right anyway. Because he has some internal moral code or whatever. In real life, it doesn’t work like that. As soon as you start breaking the rules, you lose that moral highground.

    It leads us as Christians who respect God’s authority and are humble in front of it in something of a bind, right? If we start fighting fire with fire, if we start calling down fire and brimstone on *their* heads, if we start announcing that God doesn’t like what they’re saying, we aren’t any better than they are.

    But here’s the good news: We don’t have to win the fight at all! God has already won it and is winning it and doesn’t need us to fight for Him. The wolves in sheep’s clothing are gonna get kicked out of the flock. So let ’em say it! We can contradict it with our actions, with our love, with our compassion. We can clean up their messes and shake our heads in good-natured disbelief. They can say it until they’re blue in the face. Actions speak louder than words. True confidence shines through in silent action, not formless bluster.

    This is true Christian humility in my mind. Not someone who rolls over and lets other people do whatever they want. And not someone who viciously counters all unsound doctrine at the top of their lungs. Instead, someone who recognizes that there’s no point fighting with a pig (you both get dirty and the pig likes it). Someone who recognizes that doing is stronger than speaking. Someone who recognizes that the way to heal the broken-hearted isn’t to tell them why they shouldn’t be broken-hearted, but to give them a safe place to nurse their wounds. Someone who recognizes that we don’t have to defend our faith; if our faith means anything at all, it will defend us.

  135. Nancy wrote:

    @ No More Perfect:
    I missed your comment this morning. That is great news about the baby. So, back to school for RN maybe. That is a really great idea for a lot of people. I hope you find it so for you. There is a quality of interaction with people that can be very satisfying (and a few difficult things) but all in all it sounds great. Best of everything to you.

    I knew I wanted to go back to school, but the question was what my focus would be. Then I realized that I am REALLY, REALLY good at caring for people, especially when they were sick.

    I am intimidated though, since not only are we still raising a family, but I have never had the best study skills. Those are kind of necessary, I hear. 😉

  136. dee wrote:

    As for Joe Famous being demented, that again is not beyond the realm of possibility. Perhaps it could be said as “As people age, there is always the possibility that reasoning skills or memory is declining. Is it possible that someone could be showing the effects of age?”
    Please don’t be mad at me. 

    Didn’t you mean “John” Famous? 🙂

  137. Mara wrote:

    I wonder if God like them using His name like that.

    I believe that this is covered by one of the Ten Commandments: “Do not use the name of God in vain.” And I think it is doubly covered, as it is because of their vanity that they misuse the Name.

  138. @ An Attorney:

    God probably does appreciate a good pun.

    I was very disappointed as a child when I learned that in other languages, the words for “Son” and “Sun” are not homophones. Opportunity wasted, in my opinion.

  139. @ Caitlin:
    I kind of prefer being in the Sonlight to the sunlight; as to the latter, I prefer the shade — my basically bald (and shaved where not naturally bald) won’t take much sun. And until sometime in my 40s, I had beautiful hair. Of course I was also physically fit and a hunk as well. 😮

  140. Nancy wrote:

    The “Holy Spirit” line of authority is tightly controlled and disparaged (J McA conference for ref) until they end up far away from even mainline christianity on this issue, and the “scripture” line of authority is tightly controlled to actually mean not scripture itself but rather what they teach that scripture means. In short, they have eliminated or sought to control every potential line of authority but themselves. Only they speak for God.

    What you wrote above should not be limited to John Piper, J McA, etc. It is not unique to them; it should be applied to every pastor, every church and every Christian tradition. Each claims to be 100% right.

  141. @ dee:
    I think we are very much in agreement. Your example of Todd is exactly what I was getting at – seeing something happening elsewhere on the globe, and doing something about it or at least refusing to go along with it in his own neck of the woods.

    fwiw I failed to act on one occasion. The church had a youth evangelist going into schools and holding meetings during the evening. I thought I had a ‘word of knowledge’ that something was (sexually) wrong, but being unsure I was right did not go and see a neighbouring pastor also involved in his ministry who, I think, would have challenged him on this. Knowledge and discernment was much more his thing anyway. The worst that would have happened was I looked silly for being wrong. In the event I later learned he (the evangelist) was sent down for 3 years or so for some sort of abuse of children.

    In addition, one of the children in the family he stayed in hated being anywhere near him, but we thought at the time (not unreasonably in the case of the family concerned) that this was a problem with the child. I now know that this is a very clear warning sign of serious trouble, and a big red light would go on.

    I don’t have great pangs about this, we all make mistakes especially when inexperienced and beating yourself up over it cannot rectify it, but it only reinforces my firm conviction that God does not want us to be deceived and will indeed prompt us to ‘see’ when things are not as they seem on the surface, if only we will pay attention – and ask! You cannot get this particular kind of discernment from any amount of reading books.

  142.   __

    MarzHil exiting members : “Wartburg, We are inverted, We say again, We are s-p-i-r-i-t-u-a-l-l-y  inverted…”

    hmmm…

    “Driscoll likens himself to an airline pilot who, because he is upfront in the cockpit, sees what is going on. His church attendees are the uninformed passengers who cannot see what is coming…” ~Dee

    Skuaaaaack!

    low religious terrain alert… low religious terrain alert… low religious terrain alert… 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nhxm5QEbYI

    hmmm…

    “I thought we were changing the world…” ~ Mike Anderson

    …meanwhile, MerkyD amasses  a fortune and prepares his jump once again, to proverbial light speed, as he “dumps those injured  by ‘religious road rash’ (TM)…”

    tough luck, huh?

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    __
    “Contemplative conspicuous consideration” (C):  The Moody Blues – “Long Distance Voyager, 22,000 Dayz…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wuMVHR8990

  143. Since discernment is the biggest problem evangelicals have today many evangelicals can’t discern bad teaching or theology.

    That’s where a magisterium kinda comes in handy. 😉 Arguably it’s better than some self-appointed super-pope who claims to be exercising the charism of infallibility every time he opens his mouth.

    At least it’s been around a lot longer.

    OK, off the soapbox now. Please don’t throw rotten tomatoes at me. 😀

  144. @ Catholic Homeschooler:

    This is why I only take as actual doctrine things that the Catholics, orthodox, and Protestants agree on. All else is dressing.

    I grew up in a very Catholic town and was a medieval history major in college. The emphasis on reason and logical consistency is something that is missing in certain Protestant circles. Which is ironic considering that much of the split came from a desire to read the Bible and think for oneself.

  145. @ Catholic Homeschooler:
    “The Bible is the ultimate authority and infallible, not the pastor and not the elders. And it doesn’t mean that you believe everything he says without examining it.

    You see in Acts 17 that the Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica because they examined the scriptures daily to see if these things were so when an apostle was speaking to them. So it’s not wrong for a people to love their pastor and submit to their pastor and still make sure that from the Bible, what he is saying and how he’s leading squares up with Scripture.

    Is that a bad thing to have exposure to knowledge that might reveal unhelpful things … If it makes the pastor acknowledge that he has to make a good case then that’s good to feel pressure.

    I think avoiding those kind of tensions by hiding from truth is probably not going to honor God.”

    Guess who said that … 🙂

  146. Thanks for the welcome here, Dee and others.

    What is so ironic and strange is that some of these pastors, not all, encourage their flock to be Berean and search the scriptures to see if what they preach is true.

    Ergo, either these flocks are dumbed-down, not searching scriptures, blindly following the program, just going along to get along, too lazy/scared to leave, or just plain into cognitive dissonance because something is wrong/illogical with all these messes.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not blaming every congregant, but the ones who know better and don’t leave are the ones I am trying to get at.

    I have to confess to this crowd, I was def. a big time JMac guy. Now, not so much. I will say that God def. used him to lay a foundation and learn scripture, but as the years passed, I learned to sift, not always perfectly either, the wheat from the chaff with Mac and even now rarely use his stuff. My wife still likes to listen on her way to work and that is okay by me. I just don’t buy all the pretrib, rapture, dispy, Calvinism that he peddles around, and I def. don’t like that he and his ilk think Calvin almost walked on water. I think history shows that even though Calvin didn’t light fires under who he thought were heretics, he was def. behind those who held the torches.

    Furthermore, I found many of these reformed Calvin types very arrogant, pompous and loud-mouthed. I used to read Pyromaniacs, now I laugh when I go there and see 4 comments per article. Even these guys, ironically with the site name, have burned out the faithful to their site.

    I also find it interesting that so many of these guys abuse facts and history outside of scripture. Can we please get beyond the whole America is God’s country thingy. I love America as much as the next person, but let’s keep things real and in a proper perspective. Let’s also be as honest as we can with the facts. Oh well, if they can’t be honest with scripture, how can I expect them to be honest with history and other facts. Always spinning, always spinning.

  147. __

    “Furtive FaithSayer: Pastor Fancy Panz, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    “The following is the transcript of an ACTUAL radio conversation of a US naval ship with the Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. The Radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations, October 10th, 1995 [1] : 

    *

    Americans: “Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision.”

    Canadians: “Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.”

    Americans: “This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.”

    Canadians: “No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.”

    Americans: “THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES’ ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH, THAT’S ONE FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER-MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP.”

    Canadians: “This is a lighthouse. Your call.”

    Krunch!

    Ha!

    Proverbial moral of da story: 

    [1] “Who you think you are is important, but who you really are is even more important. Every once in a while we begin to think too highly of ourselves … What am I saying? We always think too highly of ourselves. Every once in a while someone comes along who cuts us down to size. The captain of the USS Lincoln thought he was so important he could demand that a Canadian crew change its course to avoid a collision. When he finally learned that the “Canadian crew” was someone tending a lighthouse, things took their proper perspective. The American vessels changed their course…” ~Robert L. Deffinbaugh, – Bible.org

    hmmm…

    Paster Mark Driscoll, R U listening?

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  148. @ dee:

    It’s funny, because stuff about patriarchy, gender issues, etc. will get me worked up like nothing else, but I think I’m not nearly as emotional as others on this forum. In fact I suspect I’m more like Ken in this regard – I never cry at movies, disaster footage, etc. If I’m going to have an emotional reaction to something, I’m much more likely to get frustrated or angry than cry (though if I get mad enough I usually do end up crying out of frustration). Maybe this is why I can go through something like 35+ hours of Vision Forum lectures without going insane? 😉 (Though I will be honest and admit that I did almost blow my top once on an especially stupid one.)

    But I witnessed the bad behavior in homeschooling and patriarchy personally, and I didn’t even witness anywhere near the worst of it. And the accounts I’ve heard here and elsewhere confirmed that the things I already suspected, were not only true but much more widespread and entrenched than I realized. So I guess this stuff is personal to me.

    What’s even more interesting, is that after I started getting into this stuff and making more noise about it in my IRL circles, homeschool peers started coming to me with their stories and concerns. They all had the same misgivings that I did, but had stayed silent because they had no one safe or sympathetic to share them with (sadly, includ. their parents). The secrecy is sometimes such that one of them stayed up until 2AM, in her own house, after everyone else was asleep, to express these things to me. What this tells me, is that these problems are all around us, but most don’t have the eyes to see them or the ears to listen…or in the interest of keeping their perfect Christian fantasy world intact, they just don’t want to know.

  149. @ dee:
    Just read this from Steve Hackman’s blog about Mark Driscoll and how Steve is feeling
    “I’m tired of the Bible (word of God) which is supposed to point us to Jesus (Word of God) used instead to keep people in bondage and containment
    I’m tired of watching anointed and skilled church leaders delude themselves and their flock with their own vision because there is no accountability or friends who can just tell them “no”!
    I’m tired of watching good people burn themselves out fulfilling a man’s (or ministry’s) vision convinced it’s God’s plan
    I’m tired of watching those that are burned out being discarded and replaced by newer, and younger, “true Believers”
    I’m tired of watching people who are supposed to be “set free in Christ” simply swapping one set of chains for another.
    – See more at: http://www.stevehackman.net/mark-driscolls-house-of-cards-and-how-my-atheist-brother-was-right-all-along/#sthash.IyEODEjC.dpu

  150. Caitlin wrote:

    @ dee:
    This is 100% true. I cannot even watch movies (FICTIONAL MOVIES) in certain moods or I will be sobbing my eyes out. We’re talking action movies. Disaster movies. Popcorn fare. I can’t help but imagine myself in that situation (even absurd ones) and the fear and destruction gets to me. Even in movies where they don’t really emphasize it, my mind goes there.
    When it comes to actual people? I was an absolute wreck for days after Sandy Hook and still feel a gut punch every time I think about it. I don’t even have children!

    Completely the same. And never let me watch a sad animal movie…

  151. @ Beakerj:

    Those who are unemotional — try watching an episode or several of MI5 on Netflix. The stories get rather tense and frightening, and sometimes very sad.

  152. Eagle wrote:

    Since discernment is the biggest problem evangelicals have today many evangelicals can’t discern bad teaching or theology.

    I’d take it a level deeper than that. We just don’t seem to be able to discern bad behaviour or bad fruit. On this very blog someone commented not long ago that since, as far as he was aware, Park Fiscal hadn’t contradicted any major historic doctrines, then Fiscal couldn’t be that much of a problem. Or, others read a single number on the bottom line and equate it with “people who have come to know Jesus” and decide that the size of the empire (and not love, joy, peace, goodness, patience, etc) represents incontrovertible fruit.

    The demons know there’s one God, so James tells us – in that respect, their doctrine is accurate!

  153. (Quick digression: some statistics show that new Christian baptisms tend to be those children who are raised in Christian households. No wonder there is a push to produce kids and get them into the church.)

    It’s called “Bedroom Evangelism”.

    Not much of a stretch to the Quiverfulls’ “Outbreed the Heathen”.

  154. To explain this, he launches into an explanation of bank turns that airliners have to take.

    25–30 degrees: 1.1–1.2 g-force on the body, most people won’t feel a thing.
    45 degrees: 1.5 g-force, people start to feel it
    60 degrees: 2-2.5 g-force, people really feel it and start to freak out.
    70–80 degrees: Around 5 g-force, people start getting tunnel vision as the blood rushes out of their eyes.

    As someone who spent five hours today in a passenger seat on a 737, I’d like to point out that commercial airliners are NOT fighters or stunt planes. They’re built for load hauling, not high-g maneuvering. I don’t think their airframes could take 5 gees without coming apart.

  155. Ken wrote:

    In Hitler’s case this ultimately did not succeed, as the youth rebelled as they always do as they grow up and to the extent they were able during the war. They used to listen jazz on American forces’s radio, both absolutely forbidden, for example.

    Ah, yes, the “Swing Heinies”. Reichsminister Goebbels and the Propaganda Ministry had to start swing bands of their own (“Charlie and his Orchestra”) to get the German kids back listening to the Official Line. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.

  156. May wrote:

    Game of Thrones, now this. Making Christians feel guilty for watching a TV programme or eating a burger from a certain establishment. Is this what he thinks is important?

    Considering when you get past the rampant sex Game of Thrones is at heart an epic about power politics and raw power struggle (what do you think the title means?), maybe these Pastor/Dictators have other motives for forbidding their sheeple from watching. Might hit too close to home. (Come to think of it, the sex-among-the-powerful might, too…)

  157. Eagle wrote:

    I was just thinking…where is HUG? With my Mao referneces in indoctrination of Youth, and the Cultural Revolution posts…where is HUG when you need him?

    HUG was on vacation. And his first day in Pittsburgh he caught a loose floorboard on a sidewalk construction detour, wiped out and broke his wrist. (Little alley called Strawberry Way, between the Convention Center and the William Penn Hotel. If that rain yesterday hasn’t washed away the blood splatter, it’s about ten feet beyond the branch to the building’s side entrance.)

    First day of the trip and I spend half of it in Mercy Hospital’s ER. Broken wrist, skinned forehead and knees, damaged glasses. Going through AnthroCon with my good arm wrapped in a splint, finding out how much of what I do each day (including buttoning my pants) required TWO hands. Had to cut the trip short and fly back after the con instead of my usual East Coast visits. The hotel was cool about it; let me stay two additional days at convention rates while I lined up a flight back. At least the permanent splint gives me enough finger dexterity to work a keyboard. Arm’s still sore, though.

  158. I have been busy and haven’t had time to read all the comments but another great blog post Dee. It gives people a lot to think about.

    A lot of groups want younger people since they don’t question as much etc.

    Sadly so many leaders are susceptible to developing an ego when they have “success” in their ministry. Maybe that is why God gave Paul the thorn Paul had to deal with.

  159. I have heard it described as a bad gall bladder. And having had one, it can turn the night following a nice dinner (with just a bit much fat) into a night of agony.

  160. May wrote:

    sam h wrote:

    the wives are to be in submission, they don’t get to read anything of their husbands. the husband is under the same authority of the elder/group leader over them. it is called mark driscolls acts 29 complimentarianism.

    Mark Driscoll reads all his wife’s emails BEFORE she reads them. Apparently so he can ‘protect’ her in case anyone emails anything mean.

    It’s uber-controlling behaviour and the classic sign of an abuser. I fear for Grace Driscoll. I have for a long time.

    I’m with you. I shudder to think what her life must be like.

  161. OCDan wrote:

    I used to read Pyromaniacs, now I laugh when I go there and see 4 comments per article. Even these guys, ironically with the site name, have burned out the faithful to their site.

    Ditto. I have benefitted from a lot of what was written at Pyro, especially critiques of wishy-washy compromised Christianity, but finally parted company over the Strange Fire conference and their attitude towards charismatic evangelicals. I’m tired of it all. That was when I found TWW and have enjoyed discussing and ‘jousting’ with people who agree and disagree with what I think. Helps avoid confirmation bias (with apologies to Episcopalians and Anglicans!)

    Without rehashing the charismatic debate, for all their firm stand on the bible, Pyro seemed to end up wanting me to doubt Jesus’ statement ‘What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent … etc’ and deny the validity of things I have seen faithful, biblical Christians experience. I think we should be too scared of God to doubt he means what he says on promises of this nature, notwithstanding the need to discern and our own fallibility – which is a slightly different issue.

  162. Mara wrote:

    Nancy wrote:

    In short, they have eliminated or sought to control every potential line of authority but themselves.

    Kind of like Henry VIII getting rid of the Catholic church in England so he could do what HE wanted being ruler of both church and state.

    Yep, I’ve often thought of these guys as little dictators, amassing power unto themselves all the while saying “Thus saith the Lord.”

    I wonder if God like them using His name like that.

    It is like Henry VIII, isn’t it? That comparison is perfect; thanks for making it.

  163. dee wrote:

    I can’t even watch the SPCA commercials. Needless to say,I get upset at each and every child abuse situation that I hear about.

    I am the same way. Always have been. (And then I remember that my father had to be, on occasion,, restrained from doing real physical harm to people who abused children & animals; clearly, I come by this naturally.

  164. It seems God is doing a work in Mike. He’s young, got so much more to learn.

    I think people need to remember that they are just as guilty, and have built Mark up to be more than a man.
    God is correcting the situation and the spirit is moving.

    Oh, they all loved Jesus. He came into Jerusalem, Hosanna in the highest. They loved Him and adored Him.
    Then the tide turns. There is a dark power shift. The same people praising Hosanna are now spitting and cursing. Yah, if you’re so in touch with God and can bring life let’s see you bring yourself down from that cross.
    The body dies…..and the people start buzzing around the dead dying carcass like flies and vultures.

    God always brings things that are of the flesh to death. Any TRUE BELIEVER has had their own personal “death”. Watch friends you thought were TRUE friends, see weakness and you never hear from them again. You experience a pruning. Even Christ did.
    Mark Driscoll is being pruned. He’s being brought down. Christ can lift Him up again. I am not defending Mark.
    I am saying that God is making a correction, and doing something.

    The commenters here are flies and vultures, buzzing around a dead carcass.

    Here’s a novel idea: How about lifting Mark Driscoll up in prayer, instead of watching and waiting for the next drop of blood like vultures that drips from the cross he’s bearing.

  165. zooey111 wrote:

    Mark Driscoll reads all his wife’s emails BEFORE she reads them. Apparently so he can ‘protect’ her in case anyone emails anything mean.

    truly, truly spooky.

    Hopefully Grace might be able to get some tips from Katie Holmes. . . . .

  166. @ Beakerj:

    “Completely the same. And never let me watch a sad animal movie…”

    +++++++++++++

    or an inspiring animal movie. I was lovingly given “SeaBiscuit” for my birthday by my little daughter. I know own it. It is mine. Gathering my gumption to watch it with her.

    the dolphin show at marine world? tears streaming down my face. so dang inconvenient.

  167. @ Buck Thornton:

    Seems I’ve seen your interactions on other blogs . . .

    Do you know that people here aren’t praying for MD? Or that they are waiting for blood?

    Comparing MD to Jesus on the cross is way out there, Buck. MD is not much like Jesus at all from what we can see as he promotes and prances himself around the world.

  168. @ Steve240:

    Tithes in the OT were of crops. There were three tithes, two tenths at different times each year and one-tenth every third year. That adds up to 23.333% per year on the average. There were different standards for animals, including children. One had to redeem the first-born male child with a sacrificial animal. And similarly the first born male of the cattle, sheep, and goats was to be sacrificed. But birds could be substituted as a sacrifice in some instances. There was no tithe of income per se, just of crops.

  169. An Attorney wrote:

    @ Steve240:

    Tithes in the OT were of crops. There were three tithes, two tenths at different times each year and one-tenth every third year. That adds up to 23.333% per year on the average. There were different standards for animals, including children. One had to redeem the first-born male child with a sacrificial animal. And similarly the first born male of the cattle, sheep, and goats was to be sacrificed. But birds could be substituted as a sacrifice in some instances. There was no tithe of income per se, just of crops.

    True, that. And the proceeds went to care for the needy, not into some guy’s pocketbook.
    MD apparently doesn’t know that “tithe” means a tenth. The way he uses the word is crazy. He is literally telling people, “A tenth of your crops is the same thing as a quarter of your money”.

    An Attorney wrote:

    @ Steve240:

    Tithes in the OT were of crops. There were three tithes, two tenths at different times each year and one-tenth every third year. That adds up to 23.333% per year on the average. There were different standards for animals, including children. One had to redeem the first-born male child with a sacrificial animal. And similarly the first born male of the cattle, sheep, and goats was to be sacrificed. But birds could be substituted as a sacrifice in some instances. There was no tithe of income per se, just of crops.

  170. @ elastigirl: Oh gosh, then don’t watch The Story of the Weeping Camel, ever! I loved it, but even I cried (tears of happiness) at the end, and I rarely get teary when watching movies or TV. Listening to music is another thing altogether, though. 🙂

    I am actually pretty intensely emotional, but I don’t cry that often. And sometimes I *know* that a movie director is doing blatant emotional manipulation, which can either annoy me in a kind of detached way, or absolutely suck me in.

    Abused animals are another category altogether, and I find it very, very difficult to read about this, let alone look at photos or TV commercials for rescues. It’s the same for me with material about human tragedies and inhuman crimes, which is a big reason why I stopped watching most TV news 20+ years ago. Even when driving, I tend to turn the volume down when distressing news stories come on. All of us have different tolerances for distress/stress, and I’m better off avoiding unnecessary upset.

  171. An Attorney wrote:

    @ Steve240:
    Tithes in the OT were of crops. There were three tithes, two tenths at different times each year and one-tenth every third year. That adds up to 23.333% per year on the average. There were different standards for animals, including children. One had to redeem the first-born male child with a sacrificial animal. And similarly the first born male of the cattle, sheep, and goats was to be sacrificed. But birds could be substituted as a sacrifice in some instances. There was no tithe of income per se, just of crops.

    Interesting how you say that. If you gave 10% of your crops say during an early harvest and 10% later say the fall harvest wouldn’t that still mean you were giving 10% of your annual income? What was it 10% of your harvest or what you had stored up?

    In this analysis of tithing “Eat your tithe” the author seems to indicate that you tithed to save up for a vacation and only so often were the Levites given money.

    http://www.tithingdebate.com/EatingSacredCowsDownload.pdf

    The author of the pdf doesn’t talk about the higher percentage that I am aware of.

  172. The two tithes were at about the same time but went for different purposes. One was for the poor and the other for the Levitical priesthood.

  173. An Attorney

    I would be curious to see something that showed these passages that indicate the 2 10% tithes that you indicate. The booklet I posted a link to made no mention of this.

  174. “Driscoll says he doesn’t know if he can worship Jesus if his church stops growing.”

    That’s not a fair statement— I’d suggest you rephrase it. In the passage you quote after it, Pastor Driscoll is confessing that he is highly ambitious, and fears that failure might damage his faith in God. That’s different from the statement above. We should encourage him to make admissions of that kind, not jump on him. It’s precisely the policy of heaping scorn on pastors who admit to sin that leads to cover-ups and “popes”. Rather, our comment to him should be “We’re so glad you realize that. What are you doing to fight this sin?”

  175. Yes, pastors do like quoting and pointing to the life of Paul as a standard …

    “For example, here is one question that I had. Why do pastors of megachurches always address the life of Paul as the standard? Was Paul to be the standard for all of us?”

    I once told my SGM pastor who was doing the same “You know “XYZ Senior Pastor”, Paul was bi-vocational. He had a full time job AND preached the gospel. Why don’t we have you and the other pastors do the same?”

    He then went on to explain that they did more than just preach … blah, blah, blah, etc..

    I learned a difficult lesson in my life at SGM. I followed man. I followed SGM. Christ took a back seat in my life. I can thankfully say now that Christ is once again on the throne. I’ve left megachurches and superstar pastors behind.

  176. @ dee:

    @ Ken, Dee, Eagle,
    Ken, I completely agree with your comments. I Should say up front that while I do appreciate this site, I believe that it has come to be the very thing it opposes. In other words, if you’re anti MD, Anti JP, anti complementarian, anti this, that and the other, then you fall right into line and you’re free to comment just as would a 5 year old who didn’t get want he/she wants. So in other words, many commenters here as acting no better than MD does. Look, I’m grateful for this stie and for exposing what went on at SGM. I’m certainly no fan of MD or JP. But like Ken said, I don’t get the constant venom directed at certain folks here. It seems to me that we can warn folks about what goes on at these places without the constant venom. Lastly, comparing JP to Hitler is WAY over the top, even for you Eagle.

  177. Daniel

    I do not think you understand that this blog exists to allow all points of views, including uncomfortable views. The fact remains that this blog alllows for all sorts of comments, including those of supporters of MD, JP, whoever. In fact, see if you can find MD, JP or their BFFs who even allow for comments, pro or con. We try hard not to be the comment police, allowing our readers, who like us or don’t like us. I also think it is important for the Christian world to hear what others think about our tightly controlled, “aren’t we just great.” This blog attracts those within the faith and those who do not share our faith.I am far more interested in hearing what they have to say about us than another treatise by some wannabe parroting the same old tire cliches.

    And 5 year old children do not allow for those outside of the group to comment. We even allow for ourselves to be called all kinds of names, something that does not occur in many blogs. The fact that you comment is allowed bears witness to the truth of our openness to critique.

    I have talke with Eagle about the Nazi stuff and it will not happen again. However, I want to convey exactly what he meant. He is an analyst and we were discussing the youth and their penchant for picking heores and sticking with them, seemingly without question. He brought up that youth have a long history of doing this and menitoned the Nazi Youth. he was correct in this observation. However, I know that the Nazi thinkg causes much conflict and sked him not to do it. However, his point does have merit.

    Now, if you want to find a pro complementarian view I recommend The CBMW website. They are not much on allowing commentary but they are very pro comp gender roles. 

     

  178. @ Daniel:

    One more thing needs to be said. First of all I have a graduate degree in both American and European History. I attended one of the toughest Jesuit history programs in the Midwest. I read a lot about German history to include:

    19th Century
    20th Century to WWI (Kaiser Wilhelm)
    Weimar Republic
    Fascism
    The Cold War Era East/West Germany
    Unification

    My graduation essay that I wrote which allowed me to graduate was written on Charles Dawes and efforts to help Germany manage reparation payments made during WWI. I did primary source research in Northwestern’s library in Evanston, IL. If you want to know who Charles Dawes is and how his work on Germany’s finances helped him win the Nobel Peace Prize in 1925, read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_G._Dawes

    So before others shoot from the hip, I wonder…do you have advanced Graduate level education in German History? Are you still paying off Grad school debt for the next 10 years? I’m not shooting from the hip to make a cheap shot, I never knew that in studying totalitarian regimes in Europe would help me to understand totalitarian churches who set out and destroy people. So remember when I write its from an Academic and long history background. I wonder if you can say the same?