(It is time to) “throw open the windows of the church and let the fresh air of the spirit blow through." – Pope John XXIII link
Today, Greenville Online reports that BJU, GRACE to meet, discuss 'concerns of both parties'. It appears that the cries of protest within the Christian community, culminating in the NY Times taking notice, has caused BJU to return to the table with GRACE. Once again, bloggers and the media are making a difference in compelling Christian churches and organizations to deal with serious issues inherent in these organizations, particularly in regards to sexual abuse. TWW expresses kudos to the brave folks over at Do Right BJU for persistently and persuasively outlining the issues at BJU.
From the articles we have statements from both sides of the conflict.
From Bob Jones University:
Bob Jones University and GRACE will meet next week to discuss the concerns of both parties and determine a plan for moving forward,” … “Bob Jones University and GRACE remain hopeful this project can be completed with GRACE and in so doing raise sexual abuse awareness and minister to victims whose lives have been ravaged by abuse.”
From GRACE:
The purpose of this meeting is for the parties to articulate expressed concerns, as well as to dialogue about the possibility of GRACE completing the independent investigation process started last year.”
“We ask for prayers for everyone involved in this upcoming meeting,” …“We also ask that we continue to pray for God to work mightily on the behalf of all the amazing individuals who have been impacted by this most recent development.”
And pray we must…
In the meantime, I was taken by a number of comments from folks who said they graduated from BJU. I grew up in a liberal, northern household which took religion with a grain of salt. We were told to respect "priests" but didn't pay them much attention. Consequently, I was exposed to a wide variety of belief systems and activities which were normative for someone who came from a Russian immigrant family. Movies, alcohol, dancing (Dee can do a mean polka), eating awesome pizza in seedy bars, etc. were par for the course. The same went for many of my friends whose families came from other countries such as Poland, Italy, France, Ireland, Greece, etc. The priests were always present for celebrations and were known to knock back a few with their parishioners.
When I became a Christian, I continued on in these activities, never realizing that many Christians had a polar opposite upbringing and would consider these things "unChristianlike." Funny thing about it, I did not hear about this stuff for years because so many Christians from up north came from similar backgrounds.
The longer that I have been at this blogging game, the more I realize how little we understand about one another's cultural subgroups within Christianity. The word "unity" does not apply here. Nothing illustrates this more than the stories of this past week. Bob Jones University is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) stalwart while Bill Gothard practically invented a denomination of his own within the framework of evangelical Christianity.
A few years ago, we reviewed a book by Jeri Massi (who we met for lunch a few moths ago) called Schizophrenic Christianity: How Christian Fundamentalism Attracts and Protects Sociopaths, Abusive Pastors, and Child Molesters link. This book essentially lists story after story of shocking abuse which are well known to many within the IFB. Many people in the pews do not know these stories since secrecy appears to be one of the virtues of this crowd. Bob Jones University is one of the most well known of IFB colleges. If you want to get your eyes opened to abuse within the IFB, read this book. Note: We do not receive any monetary benefit for pushing this or any other book. We even pay for lunch!
(Quick digression for sci fi fans: Yes, this is the Jeri Massi of Dr Who fandom fame. She has diverse interests and is way cooler than the Deebs.) Here is an excerpt from our original post that eerily reflects the current situation.
I was dumbfounded at the reported number of pastors accused and convicted of child molestation. What is shocking is that many of these men continue to be involved in positions of leadership. The pastors, seen as specially anointed, are shielded from blame. Instead, the victim, who is under the age of consent, is usually censured for pursuing justice and there is a concerted effort to isolate and shun the victim of abuse.
The book also discusses the extreme patriarchal views that are taught in the IFB. Men are seen as the head of the church and family while women take a distant, secondary role. In this system, when there is a man and a woman at odds, the male “head” gets protected while the women are thrown to the wolves.
The following quote from the above link at Amazon tells the story. (Pastors) “…hold themselves above accountability by merging into a system that refuses to police itself or institute rules of behavior for its clergy.”
The culture is confusing to many of us who are on the outside and looking in on the IFB. Dee, the polka queen, wonders "Why didn't these students just leave?" "Why did they go there?" Several commenters at TWW have helped me to understand things a little more. I thank these kind folks for willingly baring their souls to us.That is brave! All bold words inside the quotes are from Dee who is giving an explanatory header. Also, these are not the full comments.They have been shortened in the interest of brevity. Please see the full comments which are posted in the Wednesday's post.
From Katie who attended TTU (Tennessee Temple University)
Uneducated or fearful parents and pastors in home churches insisted.
Someone asked why students go to such IFB schools as BJU? When I was at IFB’s TTU school in the early 80′s, most students came from fairly uneducated homes and fearful parents. The parents were highly influenced by their pastor’s school of choice, which was usually: TTU, BJU, PCU, Liberty (though they were considered a bit liberal back in those days by the IFB,) and Hyles Anderson.
Each school had some serious legalism, poor people skills, group think, isolationism, often poor academics, fear, manipulation, intimidation, abuse, corruption and the like.
There are alleged threats of God's displeasure to students who leave.
When I left TTU in the middle of my senior year, I was told by the Vice President of the school that “If you leave TTU, God will never use you again.” I left and the rest of that year many of the administration were exposed for different types of abuse and corruption (25 year affair, embezzlement, etc…) TTU declined from 6,000 students to 300.
From Brod who was reportedly interviewed by GRACE.
Family who worked at the school sent their kids there.
I spent over half of my life on Bob Jones campus . Administrators and faculty were my next door and down-the-road neighbors. The campus barn was one of our favorite playspaces. Right across from the barn lived the Principal of the Academy and next door to him was the Bible Faculty member who famously wrote the BJU Press publication explaining why racism is commanded by the Bible thus defending the school’s anti-integration stance – specifically interracial dating and marriage.
Do not be confused by the Larry King Live interview by Doctor Bob Jones III – or more correctly Mr. Jones (all of the Jones’ doctoral degrees are honorary except for Stephen’s and his (ed. note: allegedly)was made up to ensure he could pass the program. There are others who have been to this site who can talk more on that topic.) My familial ties with the University predate World War II. My life WAS Bob Jones University. I was not permitted to go anywhere else for school. Yes, my parents required it – it really wasn’t even a question. But the University required it as condition for my parents continued employment. What I will say in this post is from first-hand observation and my own personal experience. And yes, it does reflect opinion.
BJU reportedly helps to fund its own network of churches and Christian schools (This is discussed in Schizophrenic Christianity as well). These networks reportedly feed students to BJU.
Bob Jones University grew its own network of churches and Christian schools. Churches being planted by Bob Jones “Preacher Boys” using seed money from the University and always with the goal of having a school attached to the Church. There was always a contract with BJU that went along with that seed money. Basically BJU owned and controlled the church. Of course, the pastor always sends the kids from the church to BJU. A school attached to the Church often means a larger congregation and a larger group of new students to send to Bob Jones. Those students graduate the University go (ed.onto) recommend BJU… you get the concept.
Students were considered children and that is how the parents viewed their college "kids" as well.
I worked for quite some time there were times when there were over 6,000 students. And the students expected, for the most part, to be treated like children because that is how they were treated at home.
Accreditation of the school is reportedly weak. Degrees are often only recognized by South Carolina.
We were all told – and I can hear the echoes of Bob Jones Junior in my head -that accreditation is unnecessary and will never bee asked about. If it was, just let him know and he wo9uld(sic) set it straight with the questioning University or employer. He even got Strom Thurmond, a SC Senator for a very long time, to smooth thing with Clemson and University of SC to ensure BJ graduates could go there.
Many students, when they have graduated from Bob Jones have gotten a very rude awakening when they try to use their Nursing degree in OH, or their education degree in just about any state except for SC: the lack of accreditation of Bob Jones has meant that most have to work in Christian schools because they have much lower standards for their teachers OR they can go get an accredited degree somewhere else for more money.
Enrollment appears to be in decline, probably due to accreditation as well as school policies.
Graduates are realizing the educational issues of Bob Jones. They also no longer cotton to being treated like a child nor other spiritual and psychological abuse that goes on at Bob Jones. The last several years their numbers have every year significantly dropped. This pas fall they had fewer than 3,000 students.
There is no value to a Bob Jones degree in the real world today. When one points out the issue of graduates being able to find employment the schools apologists are quick to point out that the purpose of a Bob Jones Education is NOT to help anyone get a job. One cannot get them to further explain. Even the technical college system in South Carolina does not recognize a Bob Jones degree. The technical colleges will – in their own words – “accept some transfer credits from Bob Jones University as a courtesy.”
Please realize how difficult it is to explain this for me because it means that half of my life doesn’t matter and was a complete lie.
BJU reportedly offered confusing explanations that appear to contradict one another. This can be seen in the GRACE statement.
If you look carefully at the many things that have happened throughout all of this you will notice a pattern on behalf of the University of saying one thing to explain their position and the next time they say something, the first issue is never mentioned but it is something completely different. Even the letter sent to GRACE was full of inaccuracies. Stephen Jones had Stepped down effective immediately and was going to be on medical leave throughout the semester and occasionally pop in and help out and he would run graduation. The letter says something different.
He supports (and was interviewed by) GRACE and gives kudos to Do Right BJU, Camille Lewis, Grant Lewis and Mr. Peterman
I was interviewed by GRACE. They have done nothing outside of the stated purpose for the investigation. The University started all of this because of the courage of Mr. Peterman and the Do Right BJU group. Camille and Grant Lewis were there and have provided amazing support to the myriad survivors.
Supporters of DO Right BJU were reportedly called names from the chapel pulpit.
Also at that time the BJUnity group under the leadership of Mr. Jeffrey Hoffman was organizing and being there for a an additional group of people who were daily told from the chapel pulpit that they are worthless and in the words of Bob Jones III, they should all just be stoned dead. Stephen and the University are now denying that and are pointing to Penn State’s situation and the impetus of the hiring of GRACE. And I must take this opportunity to say that only a complete and total ninnynincompoop who really has not done true research would question the qualifications or motive of GRACE and point to ABEW and PBI as proof (both of them did almost the identical thing that BJU is doing) Bob Jones has to be realizing the repercussions of the sex abuse at Penn State hit as high as the President of that institution. They have to be worried the same thing will happen there.
He claims sex abuse was not reported and that counseling offered was Nouthetic.
What has been happening at Bob Jones – the not reporting of sex abuse – is institutionalized, discussed, and approved at the administrators meetings. The former primary “counselor” on the campus was a graduate of the University for all of his degrees all of which are Bible. None of which are counseling, psychology, or any other field that could or should lead to a job as a counselor. He does not have a certificate in the state of South Carolina to be a counselor. He does not believe in psychology. Bob Jones is s proponent of “Nouthetic Counseling” which denies any psychological part of the individual and says that if there is a problem that it is either a physical problem or it is sin in your life.
They get by the laws in South Carolina by claiming they are doing pastoral, Boblical (sic)counseling which in SC doesn’t need a certification. Greenville has become a hot-bed of this kind of quackery with entire churches being planted around it. One church is actually trying to open a center to treat addicted women using the concepts and methods of this particular counselor. (he is no longer in his head counselor role at the University but has been moved to the Seminary in an effort to put younger people in administrative roles)
From Jerry:
His parents, teachers and pastor went there. He went willingly because he had been taught that state schools ruin the faith of students. He wanted to be a good Christian.
I graduated from BJU in 2002 and received a masters degree in 2006. I went to BJU because my pastor went there, my youth pastor went there, the majority of my school teachers went there, and my parents went there. My parents did not force me to go there, but I was taught from a young age that state schools were places that would ruin your faith. I was told I would be taught everything from an evolutionary, atheistic perspective as opposed to a Christian worldview. So since I wanted to be a good Christian, my choices were limited to BJU, Northland, and Pensacola. I was a good student and loved the fine arts and BJU was the gold standard for academics and music. I thought Northland to be more of a Christian camp-like environment, and Pensacola was KJV only (even then that seemed weird to me).
He loved the teachers at BJU. He said they were excellent teachers as well as caring- a comment shared by many others. (TWW sends props to those teachers!)
My experience and I believe the experience of many other students is complicated. I loved the teachers, and feel that many truly cared for me. Many were well qualified and were excellent teachers. I loved my education for the most part.
Unfortunately, there are 2 primary negatives that are also I believe a common experience of most graduates.
The administration seemed legalistic and controlling.They reportedly created an atmosphere in which students reported on one another for what appears to be minor violations of rules.
1. While many of the teachers are wonderful, the administration (i.e. president, Dean of men’s office, school board etc in my opinion are legalistic, proud, secretive, and controlling. I know this because I was on the dean of men’s staff for awhile as a residence hall leader (over 60 other residence students). I was in many meetings with the dean of men’s staff discussing the problems of the other guys on my hall, whom I was in charge of.
There were excessively strict rules which could result in expulsion.
On several occasions I was ordered to search a room because one of the guys was suspected of having a contemporary music cd or something else “uncheckable” in his room. We would go through all of their belongings until we found something. They would then have those cds or “uncheckables” confiscated and the student would either be campused (which meant no talking to girls and losing all social privileges for the rest of the semester) or else being expelled if they were already at a certain level of demerits. My problem with this is that it wasn’t like somebody found a cd and turned them in. That would have been enough. But we would actually proactively search their rooms for uncheckable items. We were told it was our spiritual duty to turn our fellow students in for whatever violation we saw as this was our spiritual duty and an act of obedience to God. This of course created an environment, where if any one legitimately was struggling with a sin (i.e. pornography) there was no where to get true help. To go to someone for help, meant either getting expelled or being placed on probation.
Therefore, every student learns to be fake. Unfortunately, I was a part of that system for a year, until I messed up myself and received too many demerits one semester. I was caught violating a university policy. I lost my responsibilities as a dorm leader. I was immediately shunned by the other dorm leaders. I had fallen from grace. This of course was the best thing that ever happened to me as it exposed to me the fallacy of that way of thinking.
He claims that heard school administrators say that abuse victims should handle things within the the church and forgive their abusers. This appears to corroborate claims made in Massi's book of a pervasive culture of cover up of abuse within the IFB.
I believe the abuse victims because I heard the dean of students and dean of men with my own ears state that victims should handle things in the church, and should forgive their abusers. That was the method of operation for every problem, sexual abuse or not. They are a law unto themselves. I myself was involved in a situation where my roommate stole my car and wrecked it 1000 miles away. The dean of men instructed me not to tell the police, because Christians are not allowed to use the law or the police. We are to handle things within the church as fellow Christians and not involve the law. I obeyed his instruction.
He claims that degrees from BJU are usually not recognized outside of South Carolina and Georgia.
The second major problem with getting a degree at BJU it is to a large extent worthless. South Carolina and Georgia are the only states that I am aware of where one can be accepted to a regionally accredited grad school, be licensed to teach in a public school, practice nursing, and be licensed in accounting etc. It would be one thing, if BJU was transparent about the difficulties in employment and education that one faces when they leave the campus. Unfortunately, they greatly exaggerate the benefits of their national accreditation (TRACS). A truly humiliating point in my life was when I was refused by every single state school in NC for admittance to State grad schools (despite my 4.0 GPA in undergrad). While I was applying for these state grad schools, I went to the local community college to take a couple of prereq classes in accounting, and I was told even they did not recognize my degree from BJU and I had to take entry level math exams (1+1 type questions) in order to be admitted. Most every time I have interviewed for a job, I have either gotten a blank stare or I see a visible skeptical look when they look at my academic credentials.
I have gained some level of professional success but it is in no thanks to my degree. In fact, it has been in spite of my degree.
So to recap I have a love hate relationship with BJU. I had many fond memories, many excellent educators, met my wife, and started a relationship with God at BJU… But yet, I also saw the legalistic, abusive practices of the administrators and have an albatross on my neck in both my educational and vocational pursuits.
What can we learn from these statements. It is important to note that these are the impressions from those inside the system. Here are a few thoughts that I gleaned from these statements. What have I forgotten? Do you agree or disagree with these assessments by former students? Are there any students who would contest these perspectives?
- Most students come from within the IFB subculture.
- They come to the school because they have been raised to believe it is a safe harbor in an ungodly world
- Parents and pastors strongly encourage them to attend.
- They love their teacher/professors.
- They dislike the administrators.
- There appears to be a culture in which students report other students via spying in order to control the influence of "the world."
- The school's culture appears insular and the outside world is viewed with deep suspicion.
- It appears that many students believe that abuse is not to be reported outside the school.
- It appears that the priority for abuse victims is to "forgive" their abuser.
- Nouthetic counseling is pushed.
- The BJU degree has limited acceptance outside of a small geographic area, according to students.
Today we have learned that BJU is going back to the table with GRACE. Given the history of this institution, I would say this is a pretty remarkable occurrence. If the above list is true, no wonder BJU views GRACE with suspicion. We should all pray that the windows of this institution are thrown wide open and that the spirit of truth is embraced. He who is truth is looking on.
We hope to bring you a post by Camille Lewis in the near future.
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 16:16-18:23 Psalm 81:1-16 Proverbs 25:6-8 1 Thessalonians 4:1-5:3
Hello.
Just to bump Eagle. 🙂
BJU men teaching that abuse victims must forgive their abusers in person, and even ask forgiveness of their abusers:
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2011/03/blaming-the-victim-video-version-2-0/
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2013/02/evil/
Recall that Chuck Phelps made Tina Anderson go in person to forgive or apologize to her stepfather, Daniel Leaf, in the prison where he was held. Leaf was their for physically and sexually abusing his stepchildren, including Tina. Phelps also made Tina Anderson apologize to Ernie Willis’ wife.
This is what is being taught by BJU and those under its influence.
Pingback: Life at BJU | Civil Commotion
“Bob Jones University is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) stalwart while Bill Gothard practically invented a denomination of his own within the framework of evangelical Christianity.”
I had to stop and think about this for a moment. The church I grew up in was definitely IFB, yet there was a strong Gothard influence. The two are very different in some ways, but they appeal to the same group of people (those who like to control and/or be controlled). It seems like a bit of synchronicity that both BJU and Gothard are under heavy fire right now, and today the similarities became truly striking when I watched this video that was posted on the DoRightBJU Facebook page:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxi9ki_scriptural-principles-for-counseling-the-sexually-abused-bob-wood-part-1-3_news
This is a recording of Bob Wood at BJU teaching a class on how to counsel sexual abuse victims. He displayed a diagram that is nearly identical to a Gothard document titled Counseling Sexual Abuse which I happen to have a copy of. And the teachings are very similar (in terms of victim blaming/shaming, cautions about bitterness, etc.) The extreme flavors of Christianity may appear dissimilar on the surface, but underneath the ugliness is the same.
I am glad all the stories from BJU and Gothard are finally coming out, in such a way that could not have been possible before social media and online communities. It’s becoming harder and harder for victims to be dismissed and suppressed.
Oh, and I am a big Doctor Who fan 🙂 It’s lovely to enter, just for a while, a universe where justice is served, evil is exposed, and the Doctor always comes to help when a child cries.
I don’t think I’m being too cynical when I say that I don’t think BJU has any intention of addressing the issues involved. They don’t need no stinkin’ investigation, their doing it the way ‘God’ says – ‘God’ being themselves.
Have GOP Presidential hopefuls stopped going to BJU for God’s Blessing on their campaign kickoffs?
It’s great to have Friends in High Places.
(Just don’t ask that bokor from Disney’s Princess and the Frog…)
Thankful The Lord was protecting me from all these fundies. My parents wanted me to attend BJU and after looking at the application, I told them no way am I going there. Then I attended a IBYC seminar and it just never set right with me; something was amiss and I dismissed it from that point on. Course, I’ve always been accussed of being too opinionated (for a woman). 🙂
NuttShell wrote:
…which usually means she’s thinking for herself!
Powerful stories, Deebs. I have a post going up Monday working off the NYT article.
NC Now wrote:
Darn!!! NCNow…..pppppplllllaaaaafffff!!! :-p
One of the girls in my homeschool group from a really conservative Baptist family (who I think were some “lite” version of KJV-Only) went to BJU. Our teen group had a private message board for a few months and I remember having a conversation with her on there about BJU’s music rules, because I had gone online and looked at the regs. I said that judging by the list, they basically banned everything but classical music. She protested that she had just listened to The Sound of Music the week before. Rebellious and edgy, I know. 😉
Fast forward a few years. She married an MK she met on campus, got pregnant maybe 2 weeks after her wedding, and now has a 4mo baby. The MK went for being a youth minister and is now at some IFB church in OH. Recently girl’s mom posted some parenting article on her FB which advocated a totally condescending method of dealing with a child who was making the same request over and over again. My mom objected to the article in the comments, and the 22-ish-yo newly-graduated youth minister husband talked down to her in response. Mom and I both rebutted him and girl’s mom then deleted the entire post, article and comments.
BJU-land: where a 22yo with a 2mo child who fully intends to make said child respect their elders, can treat a 52yo woman with a 23yo child like an idiot when she disagrees with him about parenting.
Thank you for a lovely lunch. And thank you for the recommendation of SCHIZOPHRENIC CHRISTIANITY. It was written in 2007, and so it is a little dated, with its focus being on pedophiles in Christian Fundamentalist church office (men who sexually abuse prepubescent children). But the analysis of how and why the Christian Fundamentalist culture supports, nurtures, and even cultivates the grossest sins among its leadership remains the same no matter what shade of sexual crime we discuss. And that’s really what the book is about: the sociopathic core that drives Fundamentalist leaders and how that plays out in the corrupt culture and thinking of Fundamentalism, all the way down to the grass roots level.
My take on the GRACE investigation was that BJU borrowed the playbook from ABWE: they decided to hire GRACE with no intention whatsoever of letting GRACE complete the process. (I even told the GRACE interviewers that when I met with them.) The BJU administration used the favorable coverage they gained when they hired GRACE to accrue points while they also added the sports team(s) and appeared to become more progressive. I think that even Stephen’s resignation was all timed into it. GRACE could simply be dismissed as part of Stephen’s failed legacy.
I think that they hoped that any ground they lost in the cancellation process would be less than the ground they were losing before they hired GRACE; ie, most people would have forgotten about it by this time. Amazing: once again BJU failed to take the influence of the bloggers and social networking into account. And they seemed to really think that plastering CONFIDENTIAL across a piece of paper would compel GRACE to keep the dirty little secret of BJU’s double dealing. But I believe that terminating GRACE was always a part of the plan. I hope that the national coverage given by the NY TIMES (and hopefully other top tier news sources) and the popular coverage given by bloggers and social networkers will force BJU to resurrect the investigation with GRACE at the helm. But I have a hard time believing that BJ will allow any open and official criticism to be published under its own authority. I was never optimistic that BJU was going to let GRACE complete the investigation and publish a report, and I remain pessimistic. Still, I hope it happens.
@ Hester:
BJU was founded to produce “preacher boys”, and most of them are abysmally ignorant: jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=2511
The IFB accepts men as pastors who are too young to be Biblically qualified.
Beside BJU rethinking their decision to end the relationship; GRACE also desperately needs to not be fired if they’re going to be in the business. If they’re fired twice, what Christian school will hire them? Two way street here.
@ Nicholas:
The funny part is, I make that remark about talking down to your elders, as a 23yo…basically the same age as the “preacher boy” in question. It was obvious to me that he was violating his own standards. But my mother had violated one of the central rules of fundy parenting – never ever ever view your children as people – so her elder status ceased to matter. She was WRONG and LIBRUL.
This, BTW, was the verse he tried to pull to “prove” to my mother that a condescendingly- and dismissively-delivered “asked and answered” is an appropriate way to get a persistent child off your back. Remember, he’s going to be a youth minister. I know, the end of civilization is nigh.
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
This is the constant refrain of fundamentalist defenders of ABWE and BJU lately, on places like twitter and the fundy sharper iron forum: http://sharperiron.org/comment/66003
Another pro-BJU, anti-GRACE thread at SI: http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-issues-we-have-with-grace-investigating-bju
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Not if they are fired two times by organizations that have some dicey dealings with sex abuse. Is it GRACE or is it the disgusting activities that they shine a light upon. But you were never one to stick up for the abused anyway. You would far rather it be deep sixed so that you can play the game of sanctified Christian.
Be very careful here. I will not let you go after the abused.
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
ABWE and BJU hired GRACE because it is a professing Christian organization that they thought would give them a clean bill of health.
ABWE and BJU would never invite the secular authorities, whom fundies hate, to investigate them. That demonstrates that ABWE and BJU, like the rest of the IFB, were never serious about the abuse issue to begin with.
Seneca Griggs has the same fundamentalist mindset. In 2011, he disparagingly contrasted “secular experts” with “Biblically and spiritually mature believers”: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/08/christa-brown-makes-clear-case-for.html?showComment=1313076039843#c5839894566419876957
@ Jeri Massi:
Thanks for writing this eye-opening book! For those of us who know little about IFB schools and churches you have given us great insights into how they operate.
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
Some thoughts on this interpretation/conclusion.
What Christian school will hire [G.R.A.C.E.]? Well, if it’s a school or denomination or organization that has similar reputation-damaging allegations and/or proven accusations against it, they would be wise to have some outside agency conduct an impartial investigation and issue a report — that is, if they actually care about their public reputation being cleared.
I agree with the assumption that a key to such an investigation and reporting process is impartiality. How many truly impartial agencies are there which have a track record in conducting investigations on issues such as those at Bob Jones University? Just as much criticism could be leveled at an investigating agency if they get hired by an organization that they have a pre-existing relationship with. And wasn’t that precisely what happened not so long ago with Ambassadors of Reconciliation and Peacemaker Ministries, which already had a relationship with Sovereign Grace Ministries that they were supposed to do an investigation and report on? TWW has categories on AOR and PM, so you can track what happened with that supposedly objective report. Such as at this post:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/26/ambassadors-of-reconciliation-lets-take-a-closer-look/
CONTINUED BELOW …
… CONTINUED FROM ABOVE.
Also, other TWW posts and comments on BJU have noted how G.R.A.C.E responded point-for-point to the previous firing by ABWE. We can all read that response of G.R.A.C.E and decide for ourselves whether this would be the agency we would want to hire or not if we were in an organization with a need to have an impartial, objective investigation and analysis of our situation.
http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/GRACE-Response-February-10-2013.pdf
I don’t find it particularly convincing that G.R.A.C.E “desperately needs to not be fired if they’re going to be in the business.” Looking at the larger context of the two agencies which fired G.R.A.C.E. — the ways these firing situations unfolded; and the strong public responses, such as by those who were interviewed for the cancelled reports — I have to wonder if this actually doesn’t enhance the credibility of the investigators and detracts even more from the organizations which initially hired them.
__
“Which Way Does Da Wind Blow?”
hmmm…
God does not wish it that we be slaves to ‘sin’, but to be devoted followers of ‘righteousness’.
What?
Only a life devoted to Jesus Christ, can make this possible.
huh?
This overwhelming principle however ‘costly’, is at the core of what BJU ‘endeavors’ to teach.
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
(bmp)
Where this principle has failed however, is not in the ideal, but in the actual: i.e. modeling Christ Jesus for ever student committed to BJU’s sacred trust.
At the juncture this godly effort has failed, great sadness is experienced by so many.
(tears)
Model Christ, make a devoted believer, force a conviction, create a stage pantomime, good for a momentary laugh.
The whole world is laughing?
(sadface)
“When they laugh, they will be desperate, and they will be many…”
Sopy
__
Comic relief: “Shadow BJU Pantomime, Perhaps?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reRI3t0EWFc
Cosmic question: “There’s A Bad Moon On The Rise At BJU?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xDCrP6lZy8
Bonus: “Is That Rain I See, Noah?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OSaJE2rqxU
;~)
—
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Did you ever answer my question on an older thread: when you watch Superman, do you root for Superman or Lex Luthor?
Acronyms get bandied about so much nowadays that many of us find ourselves as baffled as the Egyptologists of old trying to decipher a cartouche at a dig site. So with no further ado (or remonstrance), what does the acronym GRACE mean?
Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment.
http://netgrace.org/
Muff:
G.R.A.C.E.
Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
lol – brad/futeristguym you beat me too it.:^)
I did program evaluation for many years, consulting with state agencies and nonprofits. I gathered data, analyzed it, drew conclusions, and made recommendations. Everyone knew they were going to get a comprehensive report which would include the positive and the negative if they hired me. Nobody ever hired me who wasn’t prepared for that and I never had a minute’s trouble.
GRACE is not being damaged by ABWE or BJU. ABWE and BJU have damaged themselves. I don’t think they understood that they were dealing with an organization of experts who know what to look for and won’t obfuscate or gloss over negative findings. I would imagine that everyone now gets this and there will be no Christian organization in the future that will hire GRACE unless they are looking for the truth.
The differences between BJU and GRACE can be summed up here:
BJU’s objective: “…raise sexual abuse awareness and minister to victims..>”
GRACE’s objective: “…independent investigation process…”
My opinion: BJU doesn’t want GRACE investigating. They want the names of prior victims so they can “minister” to them. I think most of the victims already know what that kind of “ministering” consists of and want no part of it.
Daisy wrote:
Laughing – I like a woman with a sense of humor – grin
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
Now Jimmy, I was starting to have hope for you due to your defence of Dee. Please don’t break my heart.
Your reply here – which I’m going to assume is not a wind-up – is a perfect example of your 2D rather than 3D perception of things, or a form of cognitive colour-blindness if you like. You may be unaware that you have this, but I’ll bet you closest family & friends could confirm this in a heartbeat.
Follow me here: when you see a situation such as this one (& I remember vividly your response to the situation of a paedophile trying to move back into his home next door, practically, to his young victims) you completely miss the dimension that is most obvious to others – that of the human aspect, the emotional aspect, the human suffering involved, how the people are, how we need to respond in love -& focus in on something impersonal, often legal, or here business.
Do you realise that you do this? It’s like you are colour-blind to the human aspect of each of these situations. Have you ever seen the map of the London Underground as it would be perceived by the colour-blind? It looks so different & they are liable to get very very lost, & arrive at a different destination from others.
Most people would probably never even give the ‘business’ aspect of this situation with GRACE & BJU a single thought (I certainly didn’t until you brought it up)because the other aspects are so gigantic they block it from view. Here I mean the fact that most people will not attribute any blame whatsoever to GRACE, in fact it shows that they will pursue truth, rather than an agenda, even if it gets them sacked. It puts a huge spotlight on the institutions that are calling a halt early to an investigation by an organisation that is hugely well trusted, for good reason. Brad has talked about this above. Ultimately at the heart of the issue – the big obvious heart – is the question of why BJU might call al halt to this investigation? And it comes back to the very real possibility that there are things they don’t want revealed, things that have hurt & damaged people badly.
But I just wanted to feedback to you why everyone is finding your answer severely lacking, & again I’m assuming here you’re not just doing it to get malicious fun.
The crux of the matter is that the human aspect is pretty much the most important one, in each situation. Think of eating the altar bread on the Sabbath – the Sabbath is made for man, not vice versa. The welfare of a paedophile’s victims is more important than his legal right to move back into a home near them. And if he was a Christian he should be aware of the moral duty not to distress them further (love his neighbour as himself) & put that above his ‘rights’. When you ignore the human aspect you come across as cold & un-Christlike.
If you were a young man coming to me as a client I would be working through a set of scenarios with you to help you begin to perceive the human aspects of various situations, to help widen your perceptions of life. I’d probably send you for some testing too, to see if you were somewhere on the autistic spectrum, or similar neuro-developmental issues.It worries me that you miss this most important aspect Jimmy as I fear that your nearest & dearest have had a rough ride, & that you tend to put all sorts of impersonal things above their welfare, & before your duty to love them. Has anyone close to you ever said they find you cold, & you miss the point a lot? Do you find yourself at this kind of odds with prevailing perception of a situation a lot?
I mean this all kindly to you Jimmy, I’m tired of just railing against your coldness, which you seem to mistake for some kind of higher righteousness. I don’t want to get on your case for something that may be a case of different wiring,2D cognition which then needs a bit of help to see everything in 3D.
Please at least think about engaging with this answer, rather than just a swift deflection, which is what happened last time I tried to bring this to your attention.
Sorry if this has already been posted. Marie posted this at Survivors. Very interesting esp. Part II.
http://desertpetrichor.blogspot.com/2014/02/cognitive-dissonance-part-1.html
Dee:
I could be wrong, but has Seneca Griggs ever, even once stood up for the victims of abuse. If he has I missed it.
Pingback: The BJU Sex Abuse Coverup, Day 9 | The BJU Sex Abuse Coverup
Beakerj wrote:
I cannot speak to Seneca’s emotional maturity, but I’ve certainly worked with people who simply cannot perceive others’ distress. Upon further investigation we discover that they were treated unfairly, cruelly, or ignored consistently as children and their distress was dismissed, attacked or minimized. They simply cannot feel what normal people do. Even if their intellect is high; their emotions are stuck at age 10. “Suck it up,” is their motto. It’s sad.
Janey wrote:
Yeah that’s certainly another possibility isn’t it?
What I think you need to take form this Jimmy is that many here recognise a lack in you, & are curious as to where it comes from.
Just to make sure you know that I also recognise all sorts of things lacking in myself – just not this one that seems to cause a downplaying of the appalling suffering of children & the responsibility of the those who caused it.
Janey wrote:
As a former Kid Genius, I have experienced “intellect is high and emotions stuck at age 10”. Even at 58, my emotional and personality development is somewhere around 25-30. As a Kid Genius, while my IQ sped well ahead of my chronological age, my emotional and personality development lagged behind. One factor that made it worse was adults (because a Kid Genius will interact with adults more than kids his own age) looking at the Kid Genius and seeing only the Giant Brain in a Jar, never realizing there was a 10-year-old kid connected to that IQ score. You grow up alone in a world where everyone else is borderline mentally retarded, unable to grasp ideas and concepts that are trivial to you, treated only as a disembodied Intellect — a Giant Brain in a Jar. Tell me that’s not going to do a number on your personality and attitude.
@ Beakerj:
@ Janey:
Let us not attempt to explain away evil in terms of mental disorder. Seneca is the same kind of person as all of those church members we’ve read about who defend a criminal clergyman/church worker or church member, and attack the victims, the media, and those who call for accountability. The same as all the pastors and denominational leaders who engage in coverup of such crimes, like Jack Graham, Steve Gaines, and CJ Mahaney. The only condition that all of these people suffer from is sin. Reading Griggy’s comments gives us a look at the psychology of all the aforementioned people.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It is…but you don’t lack compassion HUG…& that makes a huge difference.
Nicholas:
Seneca’s attitude is what I have seen way too much of over the last 35 years as those that took over the Southern Baptist Convention–FUNDAMENTALIST– feel nothing at all for the people they hurt and lives and ministries they destroyed. We were just collateral damage. It is all our fault.
Sopwith wrote:
The trouble is that the “Jesus” they seem to see and the “Jesus” they aim to model has basically little if any family resemblance to the Jesus of the Bible. Why they would choose their “Jesus” is a mystery to me, especially with all the Bible waving they do.
Tom Parker wrote:
The Fundys were starting at SWBTS when I was there in the 80s. Could care less about Jesus. You knew it was bad when there was more concern about the welfare of the Republican Party than saving a lost person’s soul. ( and don’t get all bent out of shape, I’m a registered Republican.)
It’s just that they believe that mixing politics and religion will save their religion….dad gum Pharisees….
I appreciate all the psycho-analysis going on im my behalf -dryly.
*
My favorite “2-D” conversation took place at the end of my freshman year at a college very, very similar to BJU. It was with the Dean of Men. It lasted less than two minutes. It went something like this;
DEAN: Hello Mr. Griggs.
ME: Er Hi.
DEAN: Mr Griggs, there are 50 colleges within a 10 miles radius that would not mind having you as a student for your sophomore year. WE ARE NOT ONE OF THEM.
DEAN: Any questions Mr. Griggs?
ME: Er No.
DEAN: You are dismissed. Don’t forget to turn in your mailbox key.
Well I wasn’t going to take that sitting down so I never turned in the key. I showed ’em.
(Has a Dean of Women ever tossed a female student out of a Christian college in less than 2 hours? Just wondering.)
Tom Parker and K.D.
How right you are. A lot of us lost some blood in that war.
K.D. wrote:
K.D. you’ve provided a nice segue way into an essay in today’s Los Angeles Review of Books, “The Decline of the Revival”:
http://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/decline-revival
I want to chime in about the statements from students about the worth of a degree from BJU. Perhaps times have changed bit I graduated in 1953, shortly after I was hired bt Springfield Public Schools. After 3 years Iwas admitted to graduate school at Sou. I’ll. Univ. After getting my master’s I spent many years as a speech and hearing therapist for the Seattle, Los Angeles City, L.A. County; Dept of Defense in Germany and Easter Seal. I never had a single problem with my degree and good recommendations. My friends had the same experiences. We were lucky I guess. I think the school was flying under the radar then but later on they began drawing ridicule with their separatist and political statements; they did a great disservice to their grads. An interesting book, detailing the rise of separatism at BJU is “Island in the Lake of Fire.” Forget the author seems rather objective.
@ brad/futuristguy:
@ brad/futuristguy:
It appears to me that some of the organizations that hire GRACE don’t actually want the truth when the truth could implicate them.
I’m wondering if GRACE has had some cases that actually went through to completion? I’m not saying they haven’t, but I haven’t heard of them. The investigation concerning SGM was completed but most people who had conflict with SGM were not satisfied with the end report. I find it quite disturbing that results of these reports for Christian organizations, done by Christian organizations, are either suppressed or unsatisfactory results in the eyes of the people who were victimized.
I am coming to the conclusion that anyone victimized by a Christian person or organization should NOT try to engage another Christian organization for help or for peacemaking. It may seem harsh to some, but I don’t see that it is working. I would send people to public organizations, police, sheriff, CPS, etc., to get a fair investigation and report of any serious offense and ALWAYS if a crime was committed.
@ Marsha:
Yes. But what does this say about the organizations that then cancel the contracts? Have they been glossing over the negative so long that they can no longer see it? Have they seared their conscious?
Tom Parker wrote:
I, personally, have not seen it either.
I suspect Asperger’s, which is a reason. But that doesn’t, IMNSHO, give him an excuse.
Bridget wrote:
Anyone remember Archibald Cox?
NC Now wrote:
And the bumper sticker “Get That Cox Sacker”?
Bridget wrote:
They’re looking for Yes Men with a Rubber Stamp, just like their own Board of Elders. And they don’t like it when they find out GRACE isn’t a Yes Man with a Rubber Stamp.
Nancy wrote:
Maybe they choose what they see in the mirror?
Or like BJU and GRACE, they’re looking for a Yes-Jesus with a Rubber Stamp?
Tom Parker wrote:
“You can’t make an omelete without cracking a few eggs.”
— Comrade Stalin
Nicholas wrote:
I strongly disagree Nicholas. I really don’t know what’s up with Seneca, personally, but as Beakerj, Janey, and HUG note, there can be many reasons for a person’s seemingly lack of empathy or immaturity in certain areas and it’s certainly NOT always sin. The current internet medium certainly doesn’t allow a fair means of assessment into a commenter’s individual traits and the “why” behind them. This comment isn’t meant to conclude in any right or wrong, although there is certainly a middle that we ‘wish’ people would fall into. The fact is, not all people do. And, yes, some people might have to be isolated or restrained as to not inflict pain on others. On the other hand, many may come to see their error, learn, and change (repent, if you will).
Beakerj wrote:
In SF litfandom, I have run into Superior Intellects who lack all compassion. They ARE the Giant Brain in a Jar, without any ties to Meatspace. Like a Mr Spock gone sour. Ever seen someone work his calculator and pronounce Global Thermonuclear War as “Only a three-point-seven Gigadeath Situation”?
In fandoms, you run into a lot of Misfits of various types (including Aspergers types both diagnosed and undiagnosed), and the above level of Pure Intellect and Theoretical Purity is actually rare. More common (especially in Furry Fandom) are the basic arrested development cases who retain a lot of the behavior (and sense of humor, and obsessions) of ten/twelve-year-olds.
I myself show signs of possible bordeline Aspergers (though my father was the one with the hyperfocus ability), and one of my writing partners (the Sword & Sorcery one who’s now doing MLP:FIM fanfic) shows definite Aspie symptoms.
Bridget wrote:
I think we are dealing with authoritarian personalities, people who put what they see as the good of the organization before that of individuals. Abuse victims are collateral damage; the organizations must be protected at all costs. These people have indeed seared their consciences; they pride themselves on being practical realists. Over time, people who correctly see that the mission of the organization is being compromised by throwing individuals under the bus leave the organization and it just gets worse. These organizations hire GRACE because they don’t want the negative publicity and civil penalties that accrued to Penn State. They expect GRACE to develop policies to protect them but they are shocked when GRACE wants to bring past abuse and response out into the open and outraged when GRACE shows how their own values facilitate a climate in which abuse can flourish.
zooey111 wrote:
If any of you think people with Aspergers don’t care, it is not true. I have Aspergers and I care. It still has to do with the heart, even if it could be harder to understand other people’s problems sometimes.
zooey111 wrote:
Why do people keep trying to attribute Seneca’s behavior to Aspergers or Autism? That doesn’t make people more or less likely to behave like him. I in fact have Aspergers.
Seneca is just a Calvinist-SBC troll.
@ Retha:
My soon-to-be son-in-law has Non-verbal Learning Disorder (related to Aspergers). He is a very loving young man but I had to get to know his ways before I saw the generosity of spirit, something which my daughter saw instantly.
Kudos to you, Retha! It is all about the heart.
Nicholas, I didn’t know that. Fascinating! As Retha says, it is about the heart. Calvinism encourages cold-heartedness, even though I know some absolutely warm-hearted ones and I don’t know how they manage it.
I wish you the best too.
Per the Aspie thing, glad others have chimed in about Aspies being able to feel/care, even if they sometimes have trouble relating to people. I’m not an Aspie but I am probably somewhere on the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum. Per Seneca/Jimmy, I always assumed he was just trolling.
Bridget wrote:
I thought about Bridget’s fair-minded questions and critiques the whole morning. Here are some thoughts, for what they’re worth. But first, three initial points about my background and biases, so you know where I’m coming from.
(1) I’ve worked with recovery ministries, and strongly believe both in the importance of reporting crimes to the proper civil authorities, and also in finding advocacy and support for survivors. (2) My sister started serving in the mid-1970s in ministries and community organizations dealing with domestic violence, sexual assault, and child abuse prevention. So I’ve been aware for a long time about many legal and theological aspects of them. (3) I am biased towards working on systems, not just symptoms, whether on organizational start-ups or transitions. And I find that it’s more effective to have a “human MRI” team created by integrating multiple disciplines to do this.
So … I apologize for its length, but here’s as succinct a case as I can make for why to hire an organization like G.R.A.C.E., and what it could mean to the various parties involved when an organization inflicts harm.
If an outside Christian agency can conduct a rigorous, independent, interdisciplinary systems investigation on an organization in trouble and issue a very pointed and practical report, with no favoritism toward individuals in the organization, then I believe that is worth considering for an organization that is in trouble.
If the leaders of a church, ministry, or agency sincerely want to conduct damage repair and restore the name of Christ where they have caused harm, it makes sense to consider this. If they merely want to do damage control, then their hiring is misguided and could very well backfire (and actually, it should). In either case, the organization’s stewards, staff, donors, and members need to have a more comprehensive analysis available so they can discern and decide for themselves how they will respond to the organization’s failures.
Even if the legal systems are engaged, that does not address certain theological aspects of the problems or solutions. For instance, insincere leaders could say, “We’re doing what the laws require” but still not move their internal practices from intervention to repentance, reparations, and prevention. Or, their theological perspectives on “counseling” might be legitimately challenged head-on by community authorities, but those critiques don’t necessarily counter or correct faulty theology underlying those views. There needs to be theological feedback so organization leaders cannot simply kick back because they might be meeting the minimum legal requirements. It is both a theological and community task to transform an organization’s systems so it reverses evil in its strategies, structures, and corporate culture.
So, it makes sense to me to have a theologically-based investigation by an interdisciplinary team that is weighted toward Christians who are professionals (e.g., lawyers, prosecutors, journalists, counselors, social workers, organizational and non-profit developers) rather than professional Christians (e.g., pastors, seminary professors, denominational leaders). Check out the composition of the Board of Directors and also the teams they use for their investigation, and see what kind of balance they seem to have.
Here is the completed report from 2010 that G.R.A.C.E. posted for their investigation into child abuse at New Tribes Fanda Missionary School.
http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/final_report_and_recommendations.pdf
Finally, I’ve skimmed this report and some of the documents posted from incomplete investigations (ABWE and BJU). My initial impression as a long-time research writer and editor is that the kinds of specific conclusions and recommendations here don’t let clients off the hook; they give concrete handles by which to change their organizational systems while taking responsibility for the damage inflicted under their watch. And those concrete changes give reason for hope that preventive practices will emerge, which means fewer people will victimized by that agency in the future. And that kind of hope is part of what so many of us who have survived various forms of abuse have made a commitment to work toward, so that others will not experience the damaging influences we endured.
(off topic).
Headless Unicorn Guy (and any other single, adult male). Owen Strachan seems to feel that women are physically designed to clean laundry and men are not. You can read about that here (R. Held Evans’ Blog)
So, HUG, I am curious, as a guy who is an adult who has not married yet, is Strachan’s view correct, that you are incapable of cleaning your own laundry, so you walk around in the same clothing every day, or do you were disposable suits made of Hefty trash bags? 😆
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
I’m actually sort of serious about it. I would like to know.
Do you root for Superman or Lex when watching super hero movies, or Luke Skywalker or the Emperor when watching Star Wars?
———————
In my post above to HUG, “were” should have read “wear”
Janey wrote:
Unfortunately I am related to a few people who are sort of like that, and kept running into those types of Christians after the death of a loved one.
@ Daisy:
Without reading the link, most of this “women’s place” speeches/articles ignore everything but non poor US society priory to 1900. Maybe 1950.
Daisy wrote:
I need to tell Mrs. K.D. I no longer able to do the laundry. I’m sure that’ll work….I’ve done the laundry now for 30+ years. I generally wear Oxford cut button down shirts and I like to wash them myself, and it evolved into me doing all the laundry, ….now that I’m retired, I cook, clean bathrooms, etc….I must not be much of a man….( BTW- my late dad who was a blue collar worker all his life cooked supper did the wash, etc, at the house all my life. Mom was a teacher, and she always came home 2-3 hours after he got off work….my dad ‘s cornbread and potato salad are still legendary in this community. ) 😉
Daisy wrote:
I’ve done my own laundry (and cooking, and cleaning) for over 40 years. We call it “Bachelor Survival”. I suspect Strachan, like some other fanboys, had to have his Mommy do his laundry well into adulthood. That’s the only explanation I can think of as to why he is incapable of it. (And substituting Wifey for Mommy is a change that is no change.)
I believe what you are describing is what we used to call “A Real Man” (and it wasn’t a complement). Like the co-worker I had some 40 years ago whose refrigerator contained only “inch-thick steaks and beer”.
And according to Dilbert, the “disposable suits made of Hefty trash bags” is called an “Engineer’s Raincoat”, though “Seattle Raincoat” or “Microsoft Raincoat” is also used. I had to flange one up myself from two trash bags (one as the raincoat, one as the hoodie) when I got caught in a rain squall in Pittsburgh a few years ago.
Hester wrote:
I have a peculiar way of “having trouble relating to people”. As far back as I can remember, I’ve been able to empathize and relate to fictional characters more than I can to RL people. I suspect it’s due to emotional isolation growing up coupled with a massive intake of F&SF.
I’m not on the autistic spectrum either. However, I do have fairly classic ADHD (primarily inattentive or, as I prefer to call it, the happy kind).
It is not uncommon for ADHD-ers to be late developers emotionally and/or relationally. A bit like Asperger’s folk, we struggle to absorb the unwritten rules of human interaction. The best articulation I’ve come across was by an autistic lassie who said: I learned by rote the rules that most people don’t even realise exist.
@ Daisy:
I have a background in Chemistry with special instruction in detergents, stain removal, etc. In 35 years of marriage, I have done 95+ percent of the laundry in terms of sorting, stain treatment, washing, drying and removal from the dryer. Mrs. does a bit more than half of the folding and putting away — I do the towels, my T-shirts, hang up the hangables, and she does the smaller linens, u-wear, socks. My mother taught all three of us how to take care of our laundry, make repairs, etc. Both my brother and I made good money in the dorm at college heming slacks, sewing on buttons, etc., as well as pressing slacks. BTW, all three of us had baby-sitting experience as well. I started with a 2 week old little boy, one night a weekend, all through HS — Mom was several blocks away if I needed help, which was only once when the child upchucked all over his bed and needed to be held until he went back to sleep and I could not hold him and change the bed as well.
Hi all
I have just arrived in Scottsdale after a long flight. I will try to catch up on comments ASAP.
@ dee:
Have a wonderful time!
Nicholas wrote:
Yeah, that’s also a possibility isn’t it?
I suppose I’d rather think he has a limitation in his perception, rather than just not caring about people. That was another fine deflection there Jimmy. Maybe trying to engage is just pointless.
I work with many young people with ASD, & it was the limits of what they can perceive of others’ emotions, rather than them not having them, or being empathetic I was getting at. I have a good friend, a physicist with Aspergers who has taught me a lot about having a warm heart & yet being utterly unable to perceive what others were feeling from facial expressions, body language or social interactions. He only really gets it if you tell him what you feel.
Maybe we should write Jimmy some nice social stories to help him deal with the issues brought up at TWW. Sigh.
And now the icing on the cake goes to……
Birthdays are now considered impure pagan rituals. Next……
http://www.bju.edu/about/fast-facts.php
These statistics are pretty impressive. 80% Med school acceptance rate. That is higher than the Lutheran college I attended……
Bealerj, you actually asked an utterly fascinating question; I’m not sure that blog comments are the medium to answer – especially since I’m in permanent moderation.
You raised an issue of seeing the world in 2-D versus 3-D. You asked a complex question, I do have a partial answer but it was quite the question.
*
In terms of my participation here (other then unnecessary snark in my earlier postings), I wrote one comment which I regretted. It wasn’t a response to a commenter directly but it referenced a concern for which the commenter had begun to get treatment. I hoped she wouldn’t read my response but she did and then apparently felt worse about her situation. I don’t know that I’ve seen the commentor again but it appeared she felt worse about her situation after reading it. I didn’t want that to happen but my remark about the problem she faced apparently made her feel worse. I do regret that.
*
As to the situation at BJU, I know LITTLE about the sexual abuse issues though something I read this morning suggested there was one staffer who assaulted/molested 9 different girls? I’m really unaware of this. You hope these young ladies work this out, it can be very difficult and painful. But like I said, I’m not up on the sexual abuse allegations so I’m not going to fake compassion for something I know nothing about.
Someone tried something with me once ( at the Christian College I was booted from ) but I warned him away and he took the hint.
*
But the other issue is those alumni of BJU who feel angry or cheated because they attended a quite rigidly structured institution that worked from an authoritarian perspective. I have very limited compassion for BJU alumni. As I mentioned in an earlier post I was tossed out of a Bible college much like BJU.
I’m an ex-jock ( not a very good one) who spent years in the locker room or in the gym. It can be quite brutal. You “suck it up” and you move on or else you quit. I didn’t want to quit. Being a guy, being in that culture I learned to “suck it up.”
*
Finally, though the book wasn’t particularly good, the title “Men are from Mars, Women from Venus” pointed towards operative differences between the sexes. I function very much from the male/jock/surfer mentality of my background.
*
Beakerj, I’m thinking your background, and certainly your gender, is considerably different from mine – as is Daisy’s. 2-D vs 3-D, it’s an interesting take.
What is Seneca’s motivation for visiting daily to this site when he disagrees with everything being said. Just curious.
@ Bridget:
Yes, they completed an investigation at New Tribal Missions. http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2010_08_28_GRACE_Fanda_Report.pdf
I cannot imagine that BJU would suffer anyone to be as direct and candid to them as this report was for NTM.
@ Jerry:
To win us over to the dark side with his charming personality and razor sharp wit.
What else could be his reasoning?
Surely it wouldn’t be just to annoy us.
Not Seneca.
@ Clara English:
Thanks, Clara. I’m not doubting that GRACE is capable and willing to finish the job. The hiring parties seem to be unwilling to let GRACE finish their investigation and have a report published. IMO not following through to the end is a bad indication for the hiring party.
__
“BJU Student(s) Gotz Happy Feetz?”
hmmm…
— > This here lit’l tongue n’ cheek (slightly) irreverent s-o-n-g (link found below) goes out wit a proverbial gas, ta all doze BJU Students dat really lov da Lord Jesus , and long ta be freeeee!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTWZVQeyak8
huh?
“…if da (real) Son of God setz you free, youze free indeed!”
(pls. don’t accept an imitation. …religious bobble heads are so plenty-full these dayz, and dat loud ‘talk’ is oh so cheap…)
(grin)
hahahahahaha!
Yep!
I can’t hear you !?!
Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!
…I wish doze freedom dayz [could] come back once mo… hum, hum, hum.. I love’d Jesus So!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvY0BdJ8KV4
…yeah, datz weird, Yo?
-snicker-
Sopy
__
Comic relief: “BJU Happy Feet Revised?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5LuSdr91zs
Bonus: “BJU, Give Love A Chance?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcuzOV3irm
;~)
—
@ Jerry:
IMO he is a Troll.
@ Jerry:
Maybe to try to convert folks to his way of thinking?
Mara wrote:
Ooh, that’s good Mara –
Jerry wrote:
I found this online —
“Shocking study results: people who enjoy trolling are jerks” http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886914000324
@ Janey:
Great reference. Thanks. OK. so I gave Seneca too much credit. Isn’t it great that “debating” is not associated with sadism. I do love hearing what people have to say.
I’m confused. I thought the BJU people were bad because they insisted peopled live by their legalistic codes, and ridicule and abuse those that don’t.
Seems the replies in this thread skate pretty close to doing the same thing.
As to BJU, if they have indeed committed abuse I hope they get caught and punished. If they haven’t and are just people living in a culture different than my own, I bid them peace. I don’t live by their codes and need not, but neither do I need to ridicule them, their codes, or try to stop them.
Once again we must be careful. It is so easy to go from good people standing up for the truth to just another “mean girls club”. Dee and Deb deserve better from us commenters.
Jerry wrote:
Why do pathological Furry Haters hang out on Furry Fandom blogs and attend Furry Cons?
Because they’re just as obsessed as the “Furverts” they trash every chance they can, just flipped one-eighty from Total Blind Adoration to Total Blind Hatred. Without the object of their hatred, they have no reason to live.
Same goes for Trolls. If they didn’t have blogs to troll and someone to tweak or harm, what would they do?
Bridget wrote:
As in “What are they hiding?”
@ linda:
I think it’s about protecting those who are in the system and are unable to escape, or unable to even see that they are victims.
To me, it’s sort of analogous to my family situation. Several years ago I severed all ties with my family because of their religious views, which happen to include a great deal of racism, homophobia, misogyny, and general close-mindedness and intolerance. Unfortunately, they were becoming very open about their beliefs with my children. Just last week, someone accused me of being intolerant of my family’s views. I responded that it was my job to protect my children from being exposed to hate and intolerance. So yes, in a way I refuse to tolerate intolerance. It is a fine line. I understand the importance of allowing people to live their lives the way they wish, but not when they insist on pushing those beliefs and practices on others in a way that causes harm.
I’m still sorting through this myself, so I may have some blind spots in my logic, but it seems to come down to protecting innocence and permitting freedom in so far as others are not hurt.
I now have a one word blog if you really, really need to psycho-analysize my childhood or upbringing. Otherwise, let’s move on.
linda wrote:
I believe this is why many current and former students of BJU were encouraged that GRACE was investigating and discouraged by the firing. According to one alleged victim in the NYT article: ‘Erin Burchwell said that when she accused a university employee of sexually assaulting her in the late 1990s, “their idea of an investigation and counseling was to ask me what I was wearing and whether it was tight, and to tell me not to talk to anyone about it because it wouldn’t look good for me.” She said university officials alternated between “saying it never even happened and saying I was a willing participant.”’
Since abuse on college campuses is a national epidemic, there are likely many more stories like this. Churches and religious institutions that believe their authority somehow supersedes the law need a reality check. They are behaving in neither a Christian or law-abiding manner.
Bob Jones list of its counseling courses and material is now suspiciously absent from the university website, unlike its other programs.
John
I have found one link, but you had to really search around the website for it.
@ linda:
Linda:
I”m confused. Who here is “ridiculing them, their codes, or trying to stop them?”
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
You’re late to the party. We already have moved on. In case you didn’t notice, it wasn’t all about you. Many people shared their own experiences.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Maybe I missed it, but did you ever give a serous answer to my Lex v. Superman question? I at least asked you something first, before drawing conclusions about anything.
@ TOM PARKER:
I’m also confused as to why it’s considered mutually exclusive to be critical of a school’s legalism and their abuse of students (or cover up of it)? I think their legalism is ridiculous, but I am also capable of being against their abuse of students and/or staff.
Jesus spoke out against sin, but he also yelled at the Pharisees creating more man-made rules that put burdens on people (legalism).
What I am saying is that reading the comments on this thread, the tone is every bit as judgmental, abusive, and unChristlike as the people at BJU.
I’m saying we are not like them at BJU, and we should not stoop to their level.
@ linda:
Linda, in all due respect, I strongly disagree with your assessment.
@ linda:
I haven’t seen much of that here.
If you want to really see that sort of thing, please visit blogs or forums by people who used to belong to Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches who left.
Not only do ex IFBs they get worked over any abuse (spiritual, sexual, or otherwise), but they ridicule and reject the legalism (over length of women’s skirts and so forth).
@ Daisy:
Daisy, re your question, any man who lives on his own for any length of time will learn to do such things as wash laundry and feed himself properly, or he will find himself both unhealthy and an unattractive proposition to any would-be partner. Plus I’m all in favour of learning extra life skills – I don’t consider myself a great cook and my partner loves cooking, but I am glad I can cook for myself when necessary.
@ Kolya:
I agree with you, for sure, but Owen what’s-his-face seems to think men are incompetent at doing laundry / God designed only women to do laundry.
Daisy wrote:
Then “somebody must have pulled off a Creation over in the next county” because I’m male and I do laundry.
__
“Fire Hoses n’ Fire Hatz?”
Wherez da fire?
hmmm…
Stephen Jones addresses, and describes BJU as a christian university that trains it’s students for the christian ministry, not unlike a military academy like Westpoint or Anaplpolis would teach and train it’s cadets for professional military service.
Stephen Jones says that this is the reason for the strict environmental regiment and discipline encountered there at BJU.
Stephen Jones stresses the fact that BJU has a fine tradition not unlike the military academies, and as such, may not necessarily be suitable for everyone.
Stephen Jones has also intimated that no one twists any student’s arm to attend BJU, and that ‘prospective’ students are aware of BJU’s mission and purpose(s) and attend fully cognizant of it’s mission and requirements, and are free to leave at any time, should that be the student’s desire.
Stephen Jones stresses that once a student is accepted at the university, he or she is required to meet or exceed it’s code of conduct, and disciplinary requirements, that it is with a sense of professional ‘type’ pride that a student do so.
Stephen Jones has also stated for the recient record, that some BJU students unfortunately may not have been adequately served properly in times past, and that BJU, he states also for the record, is seeking the means to remedy that, and make ‘it’ right.
Whew!
We will have to wait and see what the outcome(s) will be. In the meantime folks will express their opinions however they be. Thankfully they still have the freedom, and the inclination to so do.
…that is what makes this country such a great plaze. IMHO
Wether anyone is there to listen, or ‘justice’ is served, n’ righteousness enabled, is however, another subject(s) for another day, perhaps?
[Some here might construe this comment as a defense of BJU.]
sure. ok. (do I look w-o-u-n-d-e-d?)
-snicker-
Believe what you want.
Skreeeeeeeeeeetch!
Some of the coment-ers who read here and post are without the experiential love of God.
huh?
Surprise! Son_rise!
Sound biblical faith of any sort has NeVeR been a Wartburg Watch requirement.
Nor has an opinion gag order been in place.
What?
Welcome!, Come as you are! – ‘Has’ always been clearly labeled on the TWW entrance mat.
Messy as a glistening newborn, perhaps?
hmmm…
could b. can b. might b.
“You can ‘love’, or you can ‘hate’, I choose love…” ~ Jonny Cash
*
hum, hum, hum…I’m happy you keep this foolish heart of mine,
Your always there in the nick of time,
You spent your all your dimes so you could save mine,
…because your mine Jesus I walk da line… **
(tear)
Sopy
—
**Comic inspiration & relief: Johnny Cash – “I Walk The Line”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7K4jH7NqUw
;~)
—
John Weaver wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images
(I need to bookmark that link, I’m using it so much…)
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
I am curious about what you mean by not faking compassion for victims of sexual assault. Your inclusion of the anecdote about being the recipient of unwanted sexual advances which you were successful in rejecting seems to suggest that the phrase “something I know nothing about” means that you would have to fake compassion because you lack the experience of sexual assault. Most people have great compassion for the painful, frightening, or sad experiences of others regardless of whether they have comparable personal experiences. We cannot comprehend everything the other person is going through but we can imagine ourselves in their place and mirror some of the emotional response. Are you unable to do so, or have I misinterpreted what you were saying?
Sopwith wrote:
Exactly, Sopy!
@ Marsha:
Seneca would have to fake compassion, because he’s lacking in the real thing.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
SBC trolls have been posting hateful comments at FBC JAX Watchdog for years.
Nicholas wrote:
“A 21-year-old man studying how to teach church-goers about moral decision-making has been accused of shooting dead his 21-year-old fiancee and making it look like a suicide.
Music education student Olivia Greenlee was found dead in her 2001 Toyota Corolla in the parking lot of Tennessee’s Union University on Wednesday morning.
Her fiancee, Christianity student Charles Pittman, was arrested on Friday and charged with first-degree murder and tampering with evidence.
The couple, both students at the Jackson evangelical college who lived separately off campus, were planning to wed in August.” Dailymail.co.uk.
There is a picture, there is a context, I thinking, “please God, don’t let this happen to mine.” I don’t want to stand in the shoes of the girl’s parents. I don’t want to stand in the shoes of the boy’s parents either. The story becomes personal. I feel the grief.
Daisy wrote:
I’m a single guy, and I’ve done my own laundry ever since high school, when my parents shrunk one of my favorite articles of clothing (boy, I can hold a grudge for a looong time #wink).
For what it’s worth, I find that my life goes better if I ignore everything that comes out of the mouths of these complementarian busybodies. The only way I know that they’ve made yet another ridiculous statement is by reading it here at TWW. 😀
Here’s a link to that post I told you about: Heresy, Blasphemy and the Sexually Abused http://timfall.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/heresy-blasphemy-and-the-sexually-abused/
Josh wrote:
Speaker of the House, John Boehner, said in an interview I watched that he even irons his own shirts because he doesn’t like the way the drycleaners do them. 🙂
Boehner Irons His Own Shirts
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/boehner-irons-his-own-shirts-20120429
@ Victorious:
[straight_face]
What is your “great nation” coming to when a chickified dude with no regard for biblical manhood can be Speaker of the House? It’s no wonder bad things happen.
[/straight_face]
@ Nick Bulbeck:
He is well known for crying as well.
Now, I realise that we had a chick Prime Minister a while back. But, as one of her cabinet
sock-puppetscolleagues put it at the time: “She’s the best man we’ve got”.(“We” being the parliamentary Conservative Party – I think.)
An Attorney wrote:
Crivens, it gets worse. You should all emigrate to escape God’s judgement.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
You want us all in Scotland then do ya?
@ Bridget:
Hmm… well, no, not all of you – just the biblical ones.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I wonder why Owen Strachan thinks men are too dumb or incompetent to actually clean laundry, but, based on those old May Tag commercials, men are smart enough to fix the fangled washing machine contraptions.
Men are (according to his logic) too stupid, or not built by God, to stick dirty pants in a machine and hit the “on” button, but smart enough to fix the machine?
@ Tim:
If I can figure out how to log in at your blog, I might leave a comment on that thread.
@ Daisy:
That’s where carrying this to it’s logical conclusion would lead you.
But the truth is, Strachan DOESN’T WANT to do the laundry. And he doesn’t mind feigning ‘stupid’ and playing the ‘creation order’ card in order to get out of it and make someone else serve him.
He wants a servant and it is not beneath him to act dumb in order to manipulate someone else into fulfilling that role.
Upholding compism this way is an example of how spiritually and logically bankrupt it really is.
@ Daisy:
Just saw you there and left a reply to you as well. Thanks Daisy for a very powerful comment!
Blessings,
Tim
@ Nick Bulbeck: I bet you’re up to something, you old separatist, you! Hatching plans for a state within a state, eh? Are you going to secede before or after the vote? 😉
[Scotland is going to have a referendum on independence from the UK. I hope that the crown will *finally* capitulate and give the Stone of Scone back to its rightful owners, either before or after the votes are tallied. The sooner, the better, imo.]
Parenthetical note: I am not Scots nor can I even remotely claim to be such, but I sympathize with the pro-independence folks. (Not sure I agree with the, but I sympathize!)
****
… back to regularly scheduled programming now.
@ numo: P.S.: I have not felt up to getting into the discussions on this topic, if
only because having to think about yet another big sexual abuse cover-up makes me feel ill. (Plus, I am from another planet, or at least it feels that way, when places like Bob Jones U. are under discussion.)
I do wonder, though, how anyone in school administration is going to cope, now that their hermetically-sealed world has been cracked wide open? Who knows, maybe the kids there will finally get to breathe unfiltered air for a change!
numo wrote:
My semi-dyslexia kicked in after the last five hours of editing articles, and I chuckled because I thought you’d said “hermeneutically-sealed world.” Although I didn’t go to Bob Jones University, I have been in both hermetically-sealed churches cultures that had a hermeneutically-sealed system of supposedly “inerrant theology.” Hence, a knowing insider laugh, slightly sad, but who knows — change could be on the way for BJU. I realize it usually takes something rather drastic to burst the idealistic-ideological bubble for those of us stuck in a fundamentalist world, before we’re able to see the need for transformation because the sealed-off culture isolates us from the world of people Christ died for. Maybe this severe push-back on BJU is what the Great Physician ordered for those blinded to abuse to realize the need to see.
@ brad/futuristguy: I’ve been in that world, too, Brad! So glad to be out.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
So am I in or out Nick? Do I put the dogs in the car & start the drive to the true Israel?
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Hey Jimmy,
Thanks for giving that some thought. I understand what you mean about blog posts/internet not maybe being the best medium for this kind of discussion, but it is the only one in which I’ve encountered you & noticed the things I’ve noticed. So it’ll have to do.
I take your point about the potential gender differences, & that could explain some of it, but I’m unconvinced it accounts for it all. In my defence I would put forward the other male commenters here, the fact that I am an only sister of 4 brothers, have many male friends, am married to a very unreconstructed blokey bloke, & head up a predominantly male team. I also have male American friends. Some of them see in 3D much better than I do because they are more empathetic than I am.
It is worth you thinking about what it is that I’m picking up here, & where you think it comes from, & what effect it has on others. I know you deeply value your faith & feel this could definitely enrich both that, & your ability to love your neighbour.
@ Beakerj: heehee!
numo wrote:
Last time I saw it, the stone was safely en-scone-st in Edinburgh Castle. Now, as for the castle itself– I believe it’s still flying the Union Jack from the highest pole. 🙁
@ Dave A A: It’s there on loan, though. They have not given it back.
@ Dave A A: The crown intends for it to be used in future coronations.
Check this info. from Westminster Abbey on the Stone and its use during coronations.
BTW the next Big Box is up:
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/toxic-tbb/
Beakerj wrote:
BJU or Salt Lake City?
Daisy wrote:
I think it all comes down to “Wimmen’s Work”.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
BJU or BYU???
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I hope you are right, Brad, though I’m skeptical. TTU was forced to make many changes due to their huge loss of money when their student population plummeted. Just for sheer survival they had to ditch many legalistic rules and some think they may have even gone too far. Academically, they lowered an already very low bar, from what I hear; as well as allowed for wiggle room with some theological leanings, which I think is healthy. Yet, each time I try to find out if the culture of being quick to judge and argue about non-essentials in an unhealthy manner is still there, I am left with a dissatisfaction that the core issues have truly changed. I admit I do not have enough info to know in a solid way exactly what the culture is like there today; but it seems that the roots of a place run deep. I suspect that the very attitudes that caused me damage back in the day may well still be there, even with a drastically different face on the institution.
I know I’ve said this before, but I left IFB and eventually ended up in Calvary Chapel. I was shocked to realized that though they have a modern look, they actually had many of the same basic issues that the IFB’s have, it just takes getting involved to see the issues behind the curtain:
“We got it right” attitude
If you leave here, bad things will happen to you
Some CC’s encourage isolating from the world
Conformity to the CC Culture is required, language, dress and cultural likes/dislikes
Pastor speaks for God; therefore no questioning or disagreeing allowed
Pastor has all control and zero accountability
Thinking is discouraged
Blind obedience is rewarded
etc….
Katie wrote:
When it comes to the possibility of change, sorry I wasn’t more specific … it didn’t occur to me in that moment when I was commenting. But my hope is actually more for individuals, and even that is modest, based on experiences of seeing people caught up in authoritarian cultures and/or “cults” (and they can be theological cults because of not being orthodox, or sociological cults because they are authoritarian groups with a psychology of totalism and control). It seems to take a jolt to the spiritual system to shock them into (or back into) reality, which leads then to trajectory of change. And then, it is usually that the person, or maybe a couple or family or small group, leaves the cultic situation. They’re often shunned or otherwise subjected to some severe form of church discipline anyway, so it makes sense to leave because cultures and organizations change too slowly (if at all).
And on that count, as far as a whole organization changing when it used to be a theological and/or sociological cult, the only case study I know of is the Worldwide Church of God. After the founder, Herbert W. Armstrong, died, a few of those in top leadership had a stark change in doctrine from heterodoxy and legalism to orthodoxy and grace. It split the organization, and those leaders who changed turned the WWCOG into Grace Communion International. This is on my research reading list for the small stack of books I have by proponents and opponents of that change — but it’ll be a while before I can get to that. Anyway, here’s the Wikipedia article on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Communion_International
I’ll post a separate comment with some info on a tool futurists use related to understanding social and organizational change … it’s relevant to what’s happening here with Bob Jones University, and with Sovereign Grace Ministries, ABWE, etc.
It may also be of interest to know that one of the frameworks that I was taught as a futurist to use in talking about organizational change is the acronym STEEPER (Society, Technology, Environment [i.e., ecology], Existential [identity], Politics, Education, Religion). This tries to capture the order of change, and the STEE- domains change first/faster than the -PER end of the chain. Here’s a quote from a blog post I did that includes some material on futurist skills:
Futurists keep up with diverse aspects of societies, and especially look to discern what is changing. This is done through a technique called “environmental scanning,” which assumes that the order things tend to change in a culture can be captured by the acronym STEEPER. So, like a chain of dominoes, once a significant cultural change occurs in Society, Technology tends to follow suit. As Technology changes, that impacts the Environment, and all of the above start working themselves out in terms of changes for individuals and groups in their Existential (identity) issues. As more people’s lives are affected by what started as a social change, the last three areas to follow suit are, in this order, Politics, Education, and Religion. These final three are the most “conservative” in terms of how tenaciously they cling to the ways of the past. (Sidenote: After working at a seminary for over a decade, I have to wonder if combining Religious Education intensifies the sluggishness of transitions …)
More on that here:
http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/opal-design-systems-files/opal-connection-zone/
So, to be brutally honest, the fact that there appears to be huge push-back on Bob Jones University gives me slightly more hope for it as an organization, for several reasons.
First, the more that comes into the light by completing the contract and letting G.R.A.C.E. publish the expected report, the more opportunity there is to make significant changes — at least for a window of time. If BJU leadership does not voluntarily make important changes with authenticity and transparency, then any superficial/artificial changes won’t last. And, I’d suggest, that eventually more radical changes may be forced upon any such organizations that get stuck. And that is because …
… second, when the issues at hand involve failure to report known or suspected child abuse or other CRIMES — and this is far too common to authoritarian organizations — there can be severe legal repercussions eventually. Then, the opportunities for optional changes in direction will basically be closed, wouldn’t they?
So, there are some opinions, for what they’re worth. I don’t wish BJU ill, but I don’t want them to continue unfettered with what, from the testimonies of survivor-witnesses, has every appearance and substance of doing evil that harms people overtly through legalism, and covertly through neglect — and especially doing so in the name of Jesus Christ. That is beyond despicable.
@ brad/futuristguy:
I have friends who were in that cult and went to its college. They describe a rapid and extensive "conversion" of a large number of people and institutions, but with many becoming more deeply entrenched in the cult. BTW, they knew the OT inside and out, and some about the NT, and were dedicated Christians when I met them in a CBF church plant. They now both have seminary degrees from a CBF affiliated seminary and have been missionaries.
@ An Attorney:
I was referring to the WWCOG.
Katie wrote:
I’ve found these issues to be prevalent in every church, regardless of affiliation, that I’ve attended over the years. There may be greater emphasis on some issues than others, but nevertheless the issues are there.
@ Joe:
I am sorry that that is the extent of your church experience. I have been in some really great churches that do not have those attitudes or attributes.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Scotland HUG, Scotland 🙂 I’m on the British mainland, not the North American continent (sub-continent?).
I just want to share this link with other survivors of spiritual abusive systems. I know that many have struggled to make their voices heard. May you all find peace and healing.
http://paradiserecovered.com/we-are-spiritual-abuse-survivors/
Joe wrote:
As a result of my experiences, my eyes have been opened and I can often identify the roots of spiritual abuse issues that are just in their infancy in a church/org. What I’ve found is that some churches/orgs have enough built-in working accountability that it keeps those issues in check. Realistically, that is about as healthy as it gets, imo.
I, personally, think that to say that spiritual abuse issues are in every church, waters down the serious nature of those church/orgs who have issues that are full-blown, serious and dangerous. These issues exist in degrees. The percentage that exists makes a huge difference.
Having said that, I suspect that TTU’s current issues are to a less degree than what they were before. For that I’m thankful. (From digging, it also looks like many of it’s issues were possibly to a less degree in it’s earlier years of existence, as well.)
@ brad/futuristguy:
Brad, I really appreciate this info. I had not known about this particular approach to understanding/predicting the direction things are heading in.
I totally agree with you that any progress made in the area of an org going public about the existing history of sexual abuse is a good thing. Whether they have a truly changed heart or they are just being forced to deal with it, it’s still progress for the victims; as well as helpful in warning/protecting future victims.
In other news of conservative schools behaving badly, did you see the New Republic piece on Patrick Henry College yesterday? Same issues with victim blaming and failure to report assaults and harassment to authorities and misahndling counseling of sexaul assault victims. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116623/sexual-assault-patrick-henry-college-gods-harvard
Here’s an interesting article in The New Republic about how Patrick Henry College handled (or didn’t handle) sexual assaults.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116623/sexual-assault-patrick-henry-college-gods-harvard
Here’s another recovery blog (recovering from Quiverful) talking about the Patrick Henry/Gothard/VF situation.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/02/dear-michael-farris-sexual-abuse-isnt-a-basic-strength-that-can-get-out-of-control/
Elder at North Hills Community Church (home church of many BJU students)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVv0MhGgv8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
@ Andrew:
I just tweeted this and put it under the header of our blog. Thank you.
@ dee:
@ Andrew:
The elder should be commended for putting together this video message. It is serious, compassionate, and well supported by scripture and by Christian tradition. Hopefully, BJU will respond positively and comply with the requests on this video.
I just had a shock. TTU just posted an apology for having been judgmental:
http://www.tntemple.edu/news-blog/statement-of-reconciliation
In all the discussion about BJU, did anyone see this little gem found here: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/the-scandal-1980/#more
Context: The 1980 sexual scandal of Steve Gothard, where Bill Gothard would not deal with it. BJU’s influence can be seen in this situation:
“Bill [Gothard] had lost control over his staff, and he knew it. They refused to remain under Bill’s asserted authority and were insisting upon straightforward and public transparency about the scandal. Bill pulled in two men from Bob Jones University—the administrative vice president and a BJU board member, Rev. Van Geldren, to help confront the staff. The BJU delegation rebuked the staff, stating that “a letter to pastors should not be sent out, and that it was wrong to inform the pastors and supporters of the Institute what was happening.” They explained that “this kind of thing had happened also at the [Bob Jones] University and this is how they have always handled it there.” “
@ Katie:
I think the most telling phrase in the whole post you linked to (almost 7000 words) is this one:
Apologies for repeating myself, but those who think that withholding the truth in this way is good or necessary for the ministry of the gospel
That is no ministry; it’s just a business. The shenanigans of the power-holders and power-brokers is nothing that hasn’t been unearthed at Enron or Equitable Life. It’s inevitable when worldly men satisfy their ambitions for wealth, power and privilege.
Katie wrote:
Hmm… I suspect you thought the same as I did, but it’s not much of an apology, is it?
It shares many features with other outward attempts to smooth things over that I have seen, at first and second hand, from similar organisations in similar circumstances.
In the first place, it is styled “A statement of reconciliation”. But TTU do not have the right to declare reconciliation unilaterally. They have to seek it, and only once all parties are satisfied can there be reconciliation.
Secondly: It isn’t a statement of reconciliation anyway. It is fundamentally a statement of self-affirmation and self-satisfaction. It describes how some students “left with hurt and negative feelings” – the problem is entirely about them. Most of the content concerns how good TTU is or how appropriate, right and biblical the statement is. About a quarter of it covers how just a few people may have somehow got a few things slightly wrong; but hey, we’re all fallible and their small mistakes were never really representative of TTU, so TTU really isn’t responsible for anything significant. The penultimate paragraph is a very bland statement of doctrine that once again distances TTU from past false teaching without actually naming it or owning up to it. And the final paragraph boldly declares that everything is now different and OK and we’re moving forward into great things.
One piece of content that would have made all the difference is any affirmation of the victims to match the affirmation of TTU’s forerunners. But there’s nothing of the kind.
I didn’t compose the above to rub TTU’s noses in it or to fantasise about them eating humble pie. Quite the reverse. It would have taken great spiritual stature to say the above and mean it. When Daniel fasted and prayed over Israel’s historical sins, he didn’t say, my ancestors were sinful and rebellious, but now come and bless me because I’m not; he prayed, we have been sinful and rebellious, but please forgive us. A big difference.
@Nick Bulbeck,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Some of what you said I was already thinking, some of it gives me language for what I was unable to articulate. Big help!
@ Katie:
Happy I could contribute! We have a personal story on that front, as it happens. Lesley and I met while part of a “pioneer church” in Glasgow (actually, we were pioneering very little; mainly, we were copying successful formulas from elsewhere). It was a very difficult time for us. The founder and CEO of the organisation wanted very much to be in charge of a slick, professional-looking setup and I did not fit his mould. Instead of regarding me as someone different, with different gifts that God would use in a different setting, he regarded me as a failed version of himself.
Soon after we were married, we found ourselves leading a house group (or cell group – I’m sure you know the kind of thing I mean) covering a huge geographical area in which few people had transport. Over us, at the time, was a “middle manager” who was himself a young man, deeply insecure and desperate to prove himself to the CEO. He despised everybody in the group, not just me, but certainly my experience of trying to work with him was a complete hiding to nothing. Everything I said, he twisted into something fatuous, puerile or otherwise carnal and sinful, so that he could then “correct” it. (Correcting others, I assume, was the only way he could feel better about himself.) Constantly, in that church, my motives were not merely questioned, but nearly always presumed by the leaders to be selfish and sinful.
In the middle of this period, a friend in the church (who didn’t know about any of this) came up to me one day and said to me, Nick, I just felt God wanted me to say to you: I believe in you. I believe your heart is right, I don’t doubt your motives and I believe in your dreams, your character, and your desire to serve God. Or words very close to those. Lesley in particular was extremely moved by that. As she said to me soon after: No-one else in this church ever says that to you. The leaders are always putting you down and calling you immature and lazy and no good. They never talk to you as though you were worth anything.
That whole season taught me a lot about counterfeit church – and real church, too. As you well know, there are many who are first who will be last, and the last first. Many “great men of God” receive constant adulation for their godliness and wonderful motives, whilst the little people in the heap of bodies behind the buses of the “great men” hear nothing but slander and dismissal, and accusations of pride and sinfulness. The only Judge who matters will, ultimately, reverse those judgements. But that doesn’t mean we can’t affirm the least of His brothers and sisters while we’re waiting.
Hope that makes sense!
Nick, I’m so sorry you both had to endure that. Nothing easy about your situation. Lack of love and a lack of respectful treatment is always damaging.
I, too, am with an organization that does the same thing. We were in the organization before we realized they were losing team members regularly for similar reasons as you describe; which is no easy exit when one has sacrificed almost everything to go to a new land, language and culture for the sake of loving others. While in our process of transition is when we experienced our most eye opening spiritual abuse in the States. I’m so glad it happened that way so we would not think it was just a missions issue. Our mission used to be healthy, but it’s going through natural ebbing and poor leadership right now. The damage done will not be easily or quickly overcome. The entire culture of those left must be either changed, or eradicated. My present circumstances make me all the more interested in better understanding these issues no matter who is dealing with them.
Btw, Nick, may I have permission to use some of the phrasing you used in describing your response to the TTU “Statement of Reconciliation”? If so, would you prefer to have your name attributed to it, or would you prefer anonymity?
@ Katie:
Likewise, sorry to hear that you’re experiencing similar things. It’s particularly hazardous because it involves people to whom we open our lives up in the justified expectation that they are walking alongside us with God. You’ll be familiar with David’s way of putting it:
I handled toxic and corrosive substances all the time as a chemistry student. But none of them ever did me any harm because I treated them as dangerous. The same goes for the contents of my childrens’ nappies (diapers, if you prefer)..! It’s generally only food, contaminated with some or other pathogen we don’t know about, that makes us ill.
You’re more than welcome to use what I wrote, with (just to avoid any potential confusion) the proviso that it remains in context – specifically, it concerns the statement of reconciliation, which I believe is a poor one, and is not an attack on TTU or its staff, about whom I don’t know enough to comment. I don’t claim any particular patented interest in it; but the general topic of “Christian life after spiritual abuse” is important to me, so I’d quite like to be attributed if there’s a constructive conversation going on – I’d probably like to join in!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thank you, Nick. Do you have a private email I can send the link to? I don’t want to connect all the dots for everyone online.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Excellent verse! I can relate.
@ Katie:
Deebs have my email, which they can pass on to you; the easiest way is probably via my world-changing blog.
Thanks, Nick. I’ll be in touch.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I remember them from the Seventies — Plain Truth and Garner Ted Armstrong on the magazine racks at the local library. Even got written into Niven & Pournelle’s Lucifer’s Hammer as the origin and “chaplain” of a post-Holocaust cannibal cult. (Who else had this HUGE complex in Pasadena just south of the 210 about where Arroyo Seco cuts through?)
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
In the Game of Thrones, the only function of the “small people” is to eat their brown and die by the thousands for the ambition of their Betters.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
“Three holy Kings, four holy Saints
At Heaven’s high gate that stand;
Take charge that bid all evil wait
And stir no foot or hand;
The fire from Heaven will fall at last
On wealth and pride and power;
We do not know the minute or
Do we know the hour…”
— “The Last Judgment Song” from Manly Wade Wellman’s “Silver John” stories; (I don’t know whether it’s a Wellman original or an actual Appalachian folk hymn)
Katie wrote:
I live near Ground Zero of the whole Calvary Chapel movement, and CC dominated Christianese AM radio when I was listening to it in the late Seventies/early Eighties. I have encountered many Calvary Chapelites and I have always had a feeling of something WRONG about them. Nothing I could put my finger on and say “AHA!” (especially against a barrage of Bible Bullets on full-auto), but a general undercurrent of something off. Like they concentrated everything that could subtly go WRONG with Evangelical Christianity.
And now that Papa Chuck is gone, I’m waiting to see if Calvary Chapel fragments or collapses without him. Or goes into dagger-and-poison Game of Thrones mode as his heirs Struggle for the Throne.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
As an aside:
In this week’s Radio Times, there was an insert advertising Sky TV stuff. And in the middle of the insert advertising Sky TV stuff, there was an picture advertising Game of Thrones. And on the left of the picture advertising Game of Thrones, there was… Charles Dance?!?!?!
And I thought unto myself: crivens, is that not Charles Dance? And I did look unto the caption thereof, and indeed it was he. And I thought again unto myself, and did declare: How in seven colours of nappy juice did they procure his services? Hath he indeed come unto strait poverty?
And I did ponder, and am come unto this thought: the world is more strange and wondrous than I didst thinketh. And not in a good way.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Pah. I meant to type “And not in an good way”. I don’t suppose One of the Superusers could oblige with an edit ..?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
so, explain more about Charles Dance.
(I’ve enjoyed his frosty performances, & have concluded that’s just how he is whether in character or not)
@ elastigirl:
It’s just that he’s an really good actor, so I was surprised to see him in Game of Thrones. He was particularly good in Alien3, which in some ways is my favourite of the Alien quadrilogy.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Hmm… apparently the [sup] html tag doesn’t work. At least I tried.
Nick – he is quality. But what are you saying about GOT, which is also, in my opinion, quality? Especially the opening titles. And, forsooth, it may be wondrous profitable.
@ Beakerj:
Hmm… never got into GOT, I must admit. I suppose I’ve conceptually bracketed it with Spartacus: Blood and more Blood, and some sand with Blood on it, oh, and revenge involving Blood and stuff. Which I’ve also never got into. Perhaps that’s an unfair comparison, therefore – certainly, GOT has Charles Dance in it.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It is that, I won’t deny it. It is also much much more than that.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
P.S. You never answered my question about me starting the drive to the promised land (Scotland) with my minions (dogs) (mindogs?)? If you don’t know what I’m talking about then shame on you for not hanging on my every comment. Shame. *shakes head sorrowfully*
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well put. It may be the overall conformity that is, in essence, required, that is the “subtleness” you pick up on. The dress, the language, even the non-verbal communication, plus the enormous amount of time that is expected to be spent at the church and with other CCers. The lack of education when it comes to the Scriptures, the blind loyalty, and complete lack of meaningful accountability for leadership, all plays a role in the subtle erring … till one finally sees behind the wizard’s curtain and realizes it’s not all that subtle.
All one has to do is simply question or express a concern about something and they find themselves on top of the previous bodies that had been thrown out back. It’s then that one’s eye’s are opened to the obvious evils. The facade is stripped away, and one is no longer able to continue with their now revealed man worship.
IFB’s required conformity stood out in a much more obvious way than the more modern versions of fundamentalism. In the 80’s a woman was expected to only wear dresses (even if climbing ladders;) all were to be loyal to the KJV; one had to be in the church every time the doors were opened; and then abide by the long list of “no-no’s”. Outward conformity was the deciding factor of one’s spiritual maturity and fitness for the ministry.
Current “cool” versions of fundamentalism no longer use that term, and their requirements are not preached from the pulpit, rather are “caught” by the subtle pressures to conform. In the CC churches I’d been in it was needful to have tattoos, be young, NOT have a Bible College or Seminary degree, dress in current cool styles as shown by the leaders, and preferably have a rough testimony of drugs and other failures. Without such conformity, and proof of your blind loyalty to the pastor, one was not considered for a position in ministry. We watched mature seasoned Bible teachers passed over for young, hip, cool, ignorant of the Scriptures, but loyalists, to lead Bible studies. It was a travesty.
@ Beakerj:
Crivens – you’re right. I do remember that comment, though I obviously failed to hang off it.
The Promised Land would be Wasdale. I’ve walked the length and breadth of Scotland (love it here btw) and Wasdale remains my favourite mountain valley. Though you know you’ve been North of The Border for a while when you visit said Lakeland dale and suggest “walking down to the loch”.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
P.S. Prime sheep-farming country mind you – you’ll need to keep the minions on a lead.
Katie wrote:
A few years ago I listened to a fairly prominent English pastor teaching on church growth, and by way of introduction telling his own story of the first congregation he joined as a new Christian. We certainly had (probably still have) the same problems in the UK too; he described exactly the same process of subtle communication of unwritten rules. And if you broke any of them, you were labelled as “worldly”. I’ll always remember this quote:
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Excellent way to pin this down. So true! The more rules and regs, the more leadership conveys that conformity is equal to spiritual maturity, the more -I suspect- one finds sin thriving unnoticed. Maybe we can simplify this and just call the legalism “DIVERSIONS.”
Jeri Massi’s book is important for anyone wanting to learn more about abuses in independent fundamental baptist churches. Or any other denomination, for that matter.
Buy it. Read it.
What’s it called?
@ Katie:
He added the observation that a church – or family – with lots of rules is a church with weak relationships. I agree, and in fact you can almost construct a rule of thumb saying that in a group of people, the sum of rules and relationships is a constant. As the relationships get weaker, the weight of rules increases.
Conversely, as you build relationships, you can increasingly dispense with rules. My daughter (who’s 11) was eating a chocolate bar after school yesterday. When I looked at her, she started explaining that she didn’t have one with lunch, hence her eating it now, etc. I told her, “Listen, the reason we keep telling you about fruit and veg and what a balanced diet means, is that we trust you to decide whether it’s a good idea to eat [branded chocolate bar] after school”. Her face lit up a little bit at that… a Dad Moment.
Hugs and kisses all around between BJU and GRACE as of a few days ago according to newspaper. Report will be finished.
@ Katie:
It's the book featured at the top of this post. There is a link to Amazon.
Thanks, Deb. I missed it.
@ Hanni:
So does anyone really know why BJU did an about face so quickly? Is it just the social media pressure? Or is it something more?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
This is so true. The weaker the relationships the more rules needed. That was my experience in Calvary Chapel, as well. Lots of talk about great family relationships, but many unwritten rules. If a person didn’t live up to the expectations, they lost their “friends.”
There was a slew of us who were thrown out of the church as we uncovered hints of corruption. Our “friends” shunned us. Later, when the pastor was publicly found guilty with clear facts, but the friendships of many unraveled even further without the rule enforcer at the helm. It was all very subtle, but very effective, none-the-less.
@Katie
Hi Katie, my info about the getting back together came from a Google alert from “Christianity Today” online edition I suppose. They quoted from GreenvillOnline. The 2 parties met Feb 17-18. We will probably never know why. Of course we can endlessly parse their statements.
@ Hanni:
It’s a shame, because there should be more transparency than that.