EChurch@Wartburg – 2.16.14

Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg

arizona-sunset-1361266348SNvArizona Sunset

If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation

Here is Our Order of Worship

Psalm 148 Praise/Prayer link

Praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord from the heavens;
    praise him in the heights above
Praise him, all his angels;
    praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
Praise him, sun and moon;
    praise him, all you shining stars.
Praise him, you highest heavens
    and you waters above the skies.

 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
    for at his command they were created,
 and he established them for ever and ever—
    he issued a decree that will never pass away.

Praise the Lord from the earth,
    you great sea creatures and all ocean depths,
 lightning and hail, snow and clouds,
    stormy winds that do his bidding,
you mountains and all hills,
    fruit trees and all cedars,
 wild animals and all cattle,
    small creatures and flying birds,
kings of the earth and all nations,
    you princes and all rulers on earth,
young men and women,
    old men and children.

 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
    for his name alone is exalted;
    his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.
And he has raised up for his people a horn,
    the praise of all his faithful servants,
    of Israel, the people close to his heart.

Praise the Lord.

A Prayer of Dietrich Bonhoeffer link

O God, early in the morning I cry to you.
Help me to pray
And to concentrate my thoughts on you:
I cannot do this alone.
In me there is darkness,
But with you there is light;
I am lonely, but you do not leave me;
I am feeble in heart, but with you there is help;
I am restless, but with you there is peace.
In me there is bitterness, but with you there is patience;
I do not understand your ways,
But you know the way for me…
Restore me to liberty,
And enable me to live now
That I may answer before you and before me.
Lord, whatever this day may bring,
Your name be praised.

This week we are featuring Dr. Scott Camp, who addressed the Emmanuel Enid congregation last Sunday.  Dr. Camp has established a ministry called Discovery Joy.  Here is a portion of his bio:

Dr. Scott Camp has a unique blend of life experiences that give him a powerful relevant ministry to reach the unreachable with the message of Christ. He was the product of a teenage pregnancy, alcoholism, and a broken home. His own drug and alcohol abuse led to a felony charge and he was arrested while in high school. It was there that Scott committed his life to following Christ and shortly thereafter was called to preach. Dr. Camp has served in a variety of capacities since entering vocational ministry in 1982, including student pastor, evangelist, church planter, college professor, and Dean of Students. He has been the Sr. Pastor of four growing congregations which include First Baptist Church of Sachse, TX; Metro Church of Garland, TX; First Baptist Church of Mansfield, TX; and most recently, Fellowship of Joy in Grand Prairie, TX.  Dr. Camp now travels throughout the United States and West Africa preaching at churches, city-wide crusades, and conferences.

Scripture Reading:  John 1:1-5 (NASB Bible Gateway)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.  All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Martin Luther's Prayer link

Behold, Lord,
An empty vessel that needs to be filled.
My Lord, fill it.
I am weak in faith;
Strengthen thou me.
I am cold in love;
Warm me and make me fervent
That my love may go out to my neighbour.
I do not have a strong and firm faith;
At times I doubt and am unable to trust thee altogether.
O Lord, help me.
Strengthen my faith and trust in thee.
In thee I have sealed the treasures of all I have.
I am poor;
Thou art rich and didst come to be merciful to the poor.
I am a sinner;
Thou art upright.
With me there is an abundance of sin;
In thee is the fullness of righteousness.
Therefore, I will remain with thee of who I can receive
But to whom I may not give.

The Aaronic Benediction link

May the Lord bless you and keep you; 
may He cause his spirit to shine on you 
and be gracious to you;
May He lift up His smile on you and give you peace.


EChurch@Wartburg – 2.16.14 — 12 Comments

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    Well, I guess I’m joining the ranks of Steven Furtick’s “haters” after this morning’s sermon. 🙁 I could only make it through about 14 min. of negative, accusatory screaming before I almost felt the need to hide behind the sofa.

    I know there might be a time and place for this type of preaching, but I’ve always why it’s called the “Good News” and then presented as scary as a chainsaw massacre. (slight exaggeration..but not much:) Why do we present the Gospel of Good News as one of guilt and shame? I’ve never understood this. Do people whose lives most likely have been filled with guilt and shame really need more of the same and then be expected to respond joyfully to that message?

    Now I know from reading Wade’s blog that there were a good number who did respond to that message, so as I said, there must be a time and place for this style and I rejoice for those who did respond.

    Complaining aside, I appreciate Wade’s preaching all the more!

    Thanks once again for EChurch!

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    Victorious, I agree with you. I made it through to the end only because I didn’t want to misrepresent him. If this guy had been made to sit through a 30 minute commercial for beer which used all the same techniques, he would be outraged. But using manipulation for Jesus is OK? I don’t think so.

    The sad thing is that anyone could memorize his speech, add in the piano and voice, and voila!, results. I could do it! I hope that, like human births which don’t always start well, those new Christians at Enid are now introduced to a healthy and loving church family who does not continue to manipulate them. And please tell them they don’t need to be there every time the doors are open. God doesn’t live in that building. He lives in his people.

    If anyone thinks that this sermon was awesome and effective, maybe do some reading at this link.

    Jesus doesn’t need angry-faced men with schtick to bring his sheep home.

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    Victorious and Heather,

    Thanks for your comments. You are not alone in your opinions and evaluations. I know Scott and he has a heart for lost people. 21 people gave their lives to Christ last Sunday, 9 of whom were here from the local half-way house, sentenced their by a federal judge. It’s not everybody’s cup of tea, but I’ve tried to help people see that if one truly believes in grace, then we accept people who are different from us in methodology, theology, etc… I would encourage you to read and get my perspective (and others) on this particular service.

    Know this: I knew that Scott’s message would not cater to Wartburg and E-Church. However, I think some of the discussions at our church last week have been very powerful and beneficial – in the same way discussion with the two of you is profitable.

    At least people are thinking about how they approach people with the good news of Jesus Christ. 21 heard good news last week and were delighted with it! Others, Christian men and women who love Jesus, didn’t hear good news, but heard what they considered to be “guilt, screaming, manipulation, etc..” I didn’t, and my methods are completely opposite. Maybe its because I know Scott and his heart to see people come to know Jesus. Whatever the case, I’m grateful for E-church and Wartburg and the two divas for grace extended all directions.

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    By the way, those “two divas” (Deb and Dee) are two of the most delightful Christian women Rachelle and I have ever had the privilege of meeting! 🙂

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    Victorious and Heather,

    I appreciate your comments. I have heard similar messages before, and I know this approach can be offensive.

    I believe, as Wade has shared, that Scott Camp has a heart for the lost. Perhaps it was those who needed to hear his message. Thanks for taking the time to listen to as much of it as you did.

    Blessings to you both!

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    Much agreement here Wade. Regardless of whether or not we endorse Dr. Camp’s methods I think we can all agree that the monster of broken homes ravaged by alcohol, drugs, and parents who think only of themselves, does not have to be. We as a human society do not have to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

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    @ Wade Burleson:

    I’ve known Scott Camp personally since 1982. Have not always agree with the pendulum swings in his theology etc but which of us does not go through the cycles? He is a good man and has maintained a heart for soul-winning through the decades since his conversion. He is a friend to the kind of people it’s hard for most church-goers to reach.

    His style, personality and eccentrics may not be for everybody, but this is not a smorgasboard of personal preference (i.e. kingdom work).

    My sincere compliments for your open-heartedness and willingness to have the man in your pulpit.

    Good work my friend.

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    I hope Scott Camp has a sense of humor because he really does have a stereotypical motivational speaker/evangelist style. Any of us who grew up under these kinds of chapel meeting speakers do snicker a bit.

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    I was reading an article on a particular parenting approach today and I realalised why I have been uneasy about this whole conversation.

    I call the way that the evangelistic presentation was done “a method”. I could substitute “actions” or “behaviour” or “teaching”. An example of someone else using a method is Michael Pearl, author of “To Train Up a Child”. Ten people could stand up and say they know him personally and he is a nice guy, or that he has good motives or beliefs, or that he gets “results” but I am sure that we would still say that his methods, his teachings, are wrong. Or at least very questionable. Are there some things he gets right? Undoubtably. But we don’t excuse the rest because of that.

    In the same way, I question the method of the evangelist. I don’t ignore what he does because “people know him”, or because he might have “good motives” or even that there are “results”. Grace does not require accepting Michael Pearl and calling his teachings “different”. In the same way, grace does not require me to accept this method of evangelism and call it “different”, either.

    Grace does require me to extend to others the possibility that they may be right and I may be wrong. I may be wrong about what I think of these evangelistic methods. But evaluate my words against facts, like the known techniques of influence described at UnderMuchGrace, not against whether you know me, or think you understand my motives or whatever my “results” look like.

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    “A Community Of Christ believers & followers?”


    The bonds of christian community has, at it’s beginning, the apprehension of the thrust of Christ’s message…


    Which a proper understanding includes:

    A. Willful disobedience against our Creator’s word, created a contra nature in mankind, that is a condition that  renders the (all) individual(s) 180 degrees out of phase with one’s creator, in thoughts, will, and emotions. Our very inclinations rendered us by this mis-deed, opposite of the very nature of our creator. Hence, mankind gravitates towards the opposite of the creator’s intended purpose(s).


    B. Yet, the Creator, at the appropriate time, entered time and space and matter, to rescue his creatures from this precarious plight. 

    —> This he accomplished.  

    Now this good news is being broadcast throughout the world to all, in the hopes that some will listen and accept the Creator’s offer of remedy, – and a bright and better future.

    …would you consider with me a moment the following:

    pls. note: It is very simple to understand the Creator’s saving steps, and it takes only a minute to explain…

    Again, a moment of your time?


    No, No, – no one is going to yell, chide, condemn, or harangue,  I can assure you.

    (Please familiarize yourself with the following passages from the bible; they, in some small portion outline the Creator’s intent for mankind, and You, as well!)

    Stay with me here…

    Letz go:

    (first da bad news, sadface)

    Isaiah 53:6, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

    Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

    Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

    Romans 6:23, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    Romans 5:12, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

    John 3:3, “Jesus answered and said unto him, Truly, truly , I say to you, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    (now da good news!)

     Romans 5:8, “But God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

    John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    1st Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners…

    John 14:6, “Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.”

    John 11:25, “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.”

    Mark 1:15, “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”

    Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

    Make da call?


    Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


    Like I said no tirade, diatribe, criticism, scolding, lecture, rant, address, or jeremiad.

    Again, please consider these above passages, (and maybe read the bible for yourself as well, when you get a little time) as you examine the wide world around you! Maybe, it just might make a bit more sense…

    Just a kind, & friendly thought…

    Remember, it’s your nickel.


    With kind regards,

    A lit’l inspiration: Third Day:  “Call My Name…”–Zg

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    I enjoyed the message Scott gave. He is an evangelist and has a burden for the lost, something I need a little more of. I see his over reaching as a way of trying to reach the ‘religious’. Those that think they are ok because they found a formula to live by. It is difficult to reach these people and they need to be awakened out of their slumber or lukewarmness. Some may call his preaching technic manipulation, I call it love.

    I would add that what is needed today is good discipleship. Once we are born again what then? One thing that is lacking from the pulpits today is teaching on the sin nature. I want to plug the Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and advise everyone to check out a program on his network (SBN) called ‘the Message of the Cross’. It airs twice a day. The Live show is from 7:00 to 8:15 am CST on Dish TV. It is a panel of several brothers who explain the writings of the apostle Paul concerning Romans 6,7, and 8. It has been a tremendous blessing to me.

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    Proverbial Blast: “Weathering Da Elements?”

    “The elements of “Reformed” theology, and alignment with what is in the Bible…” ~ Kris

    Kris (sayz): “I’m not actually a fan of the label “Reformed.” 

     Kris (sayz): “It has been been so overused and applied to so many different interpretations that it could mean ten different things to ten different people.”

    Kris (sayz): “That being said, here is a list (probably just a partial list) of the elements of “Reformed” theology that I would say align with what is in the Bible:

    1. God created this earth, all that it is in it, and Adam and Eve as perfect and sinless.

    2. Humans sinned, bringing death and destruction into the world in a way that forever tainted and transformed all of creation, including the human race.

    3. Because of God’s love and mercy, He worked out a perfect plan for our redemption. At just the right time, His Son Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. Jesus’ father was God, Jesus was God Himself, and He was both fully human (through his mother Mary) and fully God (through the Holy Spirit).

    4. Jesus did not come into this world with our same flawed and sinful human nature, enabling Him to live a perfect and sinless life, making Him eligible to be the perfect Lamb of God who could shed His blood as a payment for our sins.

    5. Jesus lived a sinless life, being tempted in all ways as we are tempted, without succumbing to temptation.

    6. He willingly laid down that life for us, suffering the full punishment we all deserved simply because we were born human in a fallen world infected by sin.

    7. He was truly dead, and buried.

    8. After 3 days, He defeated death by rising back to life.

    9. His resurrected self was seen by hundreds, which is why so many people were willing to be persecuted and die for their belief in Him as their salvation. They had witnessed His death, knew He was dead, and then also witnessed His being alive again. It was historical fact for them, just like what you got for Christmas last year is a historical fact for you.

    10. When we hear this good news (i.e. “gospel”), our response is either belief or disbelief. We can believe that Jesus took our punishment to provide us with eternal right standing with God, or we won’t believe it.

    11. (Here is where I get a little more “Reformed” in my outlook.) I know not all Christians who read here will agree with this, but I think it’s very clear in Scripture that it is the Holy Spirit who moves and works in our hearts and minds to cause us to see the truth of Jesus and accept it. In that way, I think it’s true – mysteriously true – that God does somehow choose who will be saved even as we all have an equal opportunity to hear the truth and choose to believe it. Again, I don’t think there’s any way to fully explain to our human minds how both these elements can be true, how one can both freely make a willful choice and yet at the same time be chosen to make that choice. But in the Bible, there are dozens of verses that support both truths almost equally.

    12. When we accept what Jesus did on our behalf, we receive a regenerated spirit that can now have a relationship with God. Our sin is wiped away, both the sin that we commit willfully and the sin we inherited. Our sin is no longer a barrier between us and God. We can come boldly to Him. He calls us His children, He is our Father. We can ask Him for anything in Jesus’ name. He commits to keep us and lead us and make us perfect. (I love the verse that calls believers, “Those who are being made perfect.” Clearly, it is both an already accomplished fact as well as a work in progress.)

    13. God puts His Holy Spirit in us as part of our new alive spirit. The Holy Spirit shows us the good things God wants us to do and then equips us to do them. He comforts us. He convicts us of sin when we mess up. He continuously leads us back to repentance.

    14. When we die, we leave our earthly bodies and are with God in heaven.

    15. Our great hope – in the end, our only hope – is that Jesus has promised that He is eventually coming back, in the same manner that He ascended into heaven, to bring us to the fullness of our salvation. This is going to happen at a real point in history, in a real and undeniably physical way. Nobody, though, except God Himself knows the day and the hour…but it WILL happen. And when it does happen, we will have perfected resurrection bodies (but still physical bodies, just like Jesus Himself was able after the resurrection to eat and drink and be touched and have scars). There will be no more sickness, no more sorrow. God will wipe away every tear. Death then will truly have no victory or sting. The believers who died will literally rise up out of their graves (or somehow spin their ashes together and resurrect wherever they might be, who knows, another of those mysteries that is too great for us to understand). We will see all those believers who have “fallen asleep in Christ.”

    16. This whole amazing story is God’s gift to us. If we believe, we become part of God’s family. We do not work to earn our salvation, we do not have to maintain some sort of particular lifestyle standard to “maintain” our salvation. It is God who works in us to do good, and He is the one who keeps us.

    17. That being said – well, if you truly believe something, you live like it is true. If you believe that you have a new nature that is free from sin, you will align your behavior with that new nature. You will reject certain behaviors and embrace others. You will REPENT – turn away from – everything that was part of your past sinful life. The Holy Spirit will teach you what to do…will lead you…will enable you and equip you…so it’s not like this is some horribly stressful duty or a miserable life. In fact, you will find more joy and more peace as you live more and more in the way God wants you to live. It is faith that saves us, and the faith is a gift from God. But if we have faith, we will live lives that demonstrate what we believe.

    18. For whatever reason, God really does care about what we believe about Jesus. If we say that Jesus was/is God in a human form, who met all the requirements to be the perfect payment for our sins, then we are saved. If we deny this is true, we are not saved. It’s pretty clear in the Bible that what we affirm does matter.

    19. To add to what will happen someday, when Jesus returns, we have been told in the Bible that every knee will bow and every tongue will indeed confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In other words – anyone who does not affirm the truth about Jesus now is going to affirm it someday.

    20. Those who do not accept Jesus as Savior are condemned to an eternity apart from God, in a place where there will be “great weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (1)


    Kris sayz: “Those are the basic elements of what I mean when I talk about the core truths of the Christian faith as it is presented in the Bible. I’m sure I have missed some things. And, of course, there are many different interpretations on the details of how this all works out.” ~ Kris, Moderator,


    again…no tirade, diatribe, criticism, scolding, lecture, rant, address, or jeremiad.

    Not once did I hear her raise her ‘sweet’ voice, Kind folk who really know Jesus, do they haveta?

    bruised, battered, & left smokin’?


    Maybe in your neck of da wood…


    (1) Reference: