"One other key point was that God will never tell you to leave a Bible practicing church. Stay in your house, and make it your house."
-Ed Young Jr
"Define Bible practicing." -Dee and Deb
No one can dispute the claim that Ed Young is LIVING LARGE, except perhaps his prosperity gospel buddies. When news broke that the Youngs are living a lavish lifestyle, Ed went into spin mode. He addressed the allegations made in the WFAA/News 8 investigative report one by one. Not only that, two of his board members – John Cross, pastor of South Biscayne Church and president of the Florida Baptist Convention and Austin Pastor Mac Richard (prounounced "Ri-SHARD") – quickly came to his defense by reassuring the congregation that Ed is a man of integrity.
Ed counters each of these claims in a YouTube video entitled “Setting Things Straight and Moving On”.
THE PRIVATE JET
Ed states: “Fellowship Church does not own an airplane.” He said it is leased and that he flies both commercially and privately. John Cross defends the board’s decision to have Ed fly privately, after all, they have to look after the pastor and make sure that he is at his best on the weekends. Since it appears to us that Ed is jetting around the world teaching others how to pastor, we hope his salary reflects his apparent “part-time” status as a pastor. Clearly, he cannot be pastoring his flock during his MANY absences.
Here’s what Bob Jamison shared about the private jet…
“ED YOUNG AND HIS HALF TRUTH:
That aircraft is owned by Medill Corporation. It traces back to Ed Young as the principal through several other entities. The church is making the lease purchase payment on the aircraft. He only uses the lease word on stage and not purchase (evasive and deceitful). Ed paid $11.4 Million via a lease with a $1.00 Residual Buy Out for the aircraft at the end of the lease. He then wrapped the transaction in a “shell game” lease company that he owns set up as a Delaware Trust based in Texas. At the end of the lease, the congregation just bought Ed a jet. The only problem is N188FJ is a 1988 Model Falcon 50 that is now worth no more than 4.5 Million (Not the $8.4 Million the news reported. The news reported it as a 2002 Model and that is incorrect. Medill Corporation makes the payment to GE Capital each month. Is this the best use of the Lord’s money? The pilots that work for Brad Harris at Dallas Jet International (The management company for the jet based at Alliance Airport) that crew the aircraft have always known the aircraft is a secret. Alliance is highly secure and private compared to the other airports in this part of North Texas. Just call Brad Harris to confirm. He will give you the same half truth as Ed did on stage on who owns the aircraft. It is no secret that it is a secret and always has been. Here is the registration straight from the FAA Records:
We have provided some pertinent data from the records as found at the blog "A Little Leaven."
AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION / STATUS
"Make: FALCON Year of Delivery: 1989 Airport: AFW – KAFW – Ft. Worth Alliance Airport
Ft. Worth – TX – United States
Model: 50 Year of Manufacture: 1988 Serial Number: 50-188 Alt Ser#:
Registration Number: N188FJ Prev Reg#: XA-ALA Status: Not for Sale Purchase Date: 4/4/2001
Life Cycle: In Operation Previously Owned: Yes Ownership Type: Wholly Owned
Currently On Lease Last Change: 2/3/2009
Lessee – Medill Company/ Ed Young
TX United States
Ms. Ann R. Duckart
Vice President Tracy M Lamb Vice President
Aircraft Management Company – Dallas Jet International, LP
5605 N. MacArthur Blvd. Suite 640
Irving, TX 75038 United States
info@dallasjet.com"
This aircraft will be owned by ED YOUNG’S “SHELL” company, Medill for $1.00 at the end of the lease. ALL COMPLIMENTS OF THE FELLOWSHIP CHURCH. The aircraft costs the church over $1,000,000.00 per year currently with insurance, pilots, hangar, and repairs. Hmmm, now that’s not exactly as Ed put it on stage. There is no transparency at Fellowship because Ed owns the church and he won’t allow it. That is specifically against the way the New Testament insists that a church should be structured. It should not be owned by the Pastor. A church is owned by the membership but NOT at Ed Young’s church (It is His church, right)? It is all setup wrong and it is a “for profit” business that he has convinced himself is set up correctly. Let me know how that is working for Fellowship Church. What a turn off for someone looking to find Christ. All over s stupid airplane and a bog house. “Ed, you should be ashamed of yourself.” (Special thanks to Tikatu).
THE “CRIB” (as Ed fondly calls his abode)
With regard to his home, Ed explains that it contains 7,820+ square feet of air conditioned space, NOT 10,000 square feet as reported in the investigation. If the report accurately stated the total square footage, then the Youngs must have a sizeable garage and screened porch. And don’t forget the extremely valuable acreage on Lake Grapevine (a manmade lake). Remember, in Dallas land comes at a premium. Million dollar houses are built on lots ranging from a third to a half acre MAX. As Dee learned from her years of living in the Lone Star State, water is extremely scarce, and lakes are virtually nonexistent. Land on a lake is almost cost prohibitive.
In an effort to chastise the News 8 reporter, “mattmurph” came to Ed’s defense by writing: http://www.mattmurph.com/myblog/?blogid=244
“The house is 7800 Sq Ft and 1.5 million is what the taxing county has assessed its current value at today. That's no where CLOSE to what Young paid for it. How do I know? First off the land was donated to him from a personal friend. The county now assesses the land alone to carry a value of over a half a million. Just the dirt. So not only has the estate greatly appreciated in value over the last 7 years, he didn't even have to pay market value for the land.”
Shades of Mac Brunson? Hey Dr. Dog, wanna investigate this one? At least you can’t get kicked out of Fellowship Church and you’re no longer cloaked in anonymity.
Ed Young Jr. also admits to the congregation that he has a condominium in Miami where he stays when he jets to his church located there. We understand that it is worth around $1 million, and Ed is quick to point out that neither of his abodes are paid for. We wouldn’t expect that they would be… That’s why he gets a reported $240,000 annual TAX FREE “parsonage” allowance.
THE SALARY
Ed addresses the claim that he makes around a million dollars annually. With regard to his salary, Ed tells his congregation:
“You know, I’ve never made a million dollars. My salary’s never been a million dollars here. I mean, it’s not near that. Um, you know, I am paid well. We have um, you know, a salary survey, and I believe I’m well under what, you know, others make. I mean I’m not against someone making a million dollars a year. That’s great. I have friends who do. If that happens one day, you know, great! Hopefully, I can give more and more money, but that was totally inaccurate….”
I just received the November 2010 issue of Christianity Today, and tucked away on page 13 was the following statistic: “$139,000 – Median salary for senior pastors at megachurches (2,000+ in weekly attendance).” Wonder how Ed’s salary compares?
Ed is definitely the king of verbal manipulation. Remember, the word “salary” does not include his parsonage allowance or money from speaking engagements and consultations with other churches. Also, he claims intellectual rights to his sermons and most likely derives an income from those. And don’t forget all those books he has written. Furthermore, accusations have been made that he sold the names and addresses on the church roll.
Ed states that he has spoken to over 200,000 pastors and leaders IN THE FLESH over the past couple of years. What about the Fellowship flock? How many of them have been able to interact with their pastor during that time? A former member who has confided in us claims that despite being an active church member, having lead certain ministries, and having developed materials which Ed uses under his name, has NEVER physically met or spoken with Ed Young in the ten years spent at the church. And he dares to call himself a “pastor”?
Yep, Ed appears to be trying to keep up with his prosperity buddies with whom he often shares center stage – T.D. Jakes, Brian Houston, and now Joyce Meyer, who will be speaking at the 2011 C3 conference. We wrote extensively on Joyce earlier this year, and you can find our articles under “Categories”.
The “Setting Things Straight and Moving On” video concludes with John Cross and Mac Richard each coming to Ed’s defense before the congregation.
John Cross explains:
“I just want you as a church family to know that I have never ever had the honor of being part of a ministry with such integrity, such authenticity, vulnerability, and accountability. That’s the facts. We as a board take our responsibility very seriously. The Bible says in Proverbs he who walks the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm. And so as a board we’ve always sought wise counsel in every decision that we’ve made. We have wonderful attorneys and wonderful accountants who assist us in those decisions. Ed doesn’t make a decision without seeking out that wise counsel…The last 20 years have been great, but I’m convinced that we ain’t seen nothing yet.”
Please take the time to watch the 26 minute video. Listen for a classic Ed comment: “We’ve gotta pray and stay above the fray because once we get into the fray we become prey…”
We leave you with Rapper Ed Young Jr.’s first recorded rap video which he released at C3 2010. Yep, it’s a “(W)hole Nutha Level”! How long can Ed (soon to be a half century old) remain “hip”?
Ed Young fits the description of a Wolf to a “T”. He’s an enemy of the Lord and I can’t believe that people would be willing to stick up for him.
He makes a Mockery of The King of Kings and Christianity in general.
I’m just glad that God is exposing him to more and more people, of course there will always be people that want to follow “Celebrity” preachers.
Jessica
Ed is not without his problems. He puts on a good front but I happen to know that things are not perfect for him. Ed’s deal is money so he claims he is blessed. But, he has other problems. He knows it and so do others. Things are not hunky dory in his family. He just refuses to face them because he’s got what he really wants. Fancy boots, fancy car, and a jet.
Jessica
Actually he looks a bit foolish. He is pushing 50 and pretends he can pull off rap. Good night, he’s like a little boy who pretends he is a grownup except he is an older man who pretends he is a 20 something.
“One other key point was that God will never tell you to leave a Bible practicing church. Stay in your house, and make it your house.”
-Ed Young Jr
So let me get this straight…
1) To be in Ed’s church you need to tithe
2) If you don’t tithe, Ed says you need to leave Ed’s church
3) But Ed’s church is a Bible practicing church
4) And God doesn’t want you to leave a Bible practicing church
Sounds like Ed wants you to stay and tithe to Ed’s church. Ed will take care of the rest.
Ed would have you believe that your only choice is to follow Ed…If you believe that, there is a bridge in Manhattan I’d like to sell you.
Dr. Jon,
Perhaps a more applicable comment would be…
If you believe that, there is a HUGE lake in Texas I’d like to sell you.
It is very simple. I posted an article on my website way back in March 2008:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2008/03/ed-young-jr-boy-our-job-is-tough.html
and then another one earlier this year:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/02/youngs-franchise-player-view-of-himself.html
about Ed Young’s view of himself as the church’s “franchise player” that is alone responsible for “raising money” at the church.
If a pastor views himself as the “franchise player”, it means two things:
1. He is worthy of a huge compensation, because franchise players are the ones that people will pay to come see, and thus they get the big contracts; and
2. He is responsible for raising the money. Thus, he has a tremendous burden to “raise money”, and that results in the pathetic manipulative sermon he delievered on 10/10/10.
Show him the money.
This is all very interesting, and I think Ed Young thinks more of Ed Young than he does of the Almighty God.
I do want to gently nudge our blog queens a little, though. This probably sounds pretty picayune, but (in my case, at least) the all-caps shouting diverted attention from what you were saying to how you were saying it.
I know you’re upset about this cretin, but shouting (all caps), tends to negate the professional way you two ladies go about your investigations. There are better, more pointed ways to express your disgust and anger. Bullet points, or use of italics come to mind. Just my $0.02.
Thinking of the verses in Timothy :’The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” Adam Clarke the famed Methodist commentator writes:
Double honor – Διπλης τιμης. Almost every critic of note allows that τιμη here signifies reward, stipend, wages. Let him have a double or a larger salary who rules well; and why? Because in the discharge of his office he must be at expense, in proportion to his diligence, in visiting and relieving the sick, in lodging and providing for strangers; in a word, in his being given to hospitality, which was required of every bishop or presbyter.
Regarding Mega Church leaders with their double, triple,quadruple the salary of the average workerI wonder
what would James say to those that reap where they do not sow.
I think it also breaks the heart of the Lord when so many brothers and sisters in the third world are suffering for their faith.Give me 1,000,000 Ed Young jnr for one George Verwer.Where is the Spirit that filled Paul and Columba and Wesley and Hudson Taylor?
Tikatu,
I appreciate your candidness. My purpose in using ALL CAPS in these articles is not to shout, but to add emphasis. If that’s how it’s coming across to our readers, then I’ll be more careful in future posts.
We actually take constructive criticism well, unlike Ed Young Jr., who will not watch negative reports about him (like the one News 8 did) or read negative blogs, as he states in his response to the congregation.
Of course I meant to state in my comment give me one George Verwer for a million Ed Young Jnr’s!
I think your blog does a good service for the body of Christ.
Tikatu
Thanks for the suggestion. We have made the changes and added a special thanks to a special reader.:)
Tom
Your insights are thoughtful. I had never thought of the franchise angle of this story. In fact, that is precisely what Ed is attempting to accomplish with C3. He is rejecting more mainstream Christian theologians and is jumping into the pool with the prosperity Gospel crowd. There is only one reason for this. He is chasing the money.
Ed has no excuse. Although I am no big fan of the conservative resurgence, Ed went to SWBTS. he has no excuse for running with his new “homies.” His father knows better as well. But, unfortunately, the SBC boys have longed operated on the principle of “show me the money.” That i why the smaller church were locked out of the Great Commission Resurgence task force.
I lay a big chunk of blame on the SBC leadership. Their priorities are
“whacked” to use one of Ed’s terms. However, Ed and gang can’t hide any longer, thanks to blogging.
Tom, we bloggers owe you a round of standing ovations. You have made a major difference in this world and I believe you will be rewarded in heaven for standing up to sin in the church.
Andrew
Thank you so much for your comment on George Verwer. I had heard of him but did not know much about him. I spent some time reading about his life today. What a good man! And I agree. This is a guy who has sacrificed. Ed has never sacrificed, no matter what he says. I know him way back when and even his house in Hackberry Creek in Las Colinas, Irving was very, very nice.He bought this when he had one child. It was on a cul de sac in a gated community.
Ed’s daddy, Ed Young Sr., live ins a very nice home. While I lived in Texas, his home was voted one of the 10 most beautiful homes in Houston. I am sure that you are aware that Houston is a wealthy city so that is a high “honor” indeed.
Don’t get me wrong. Ed is a charming guy and way back when was even very interactive with the “little people” like ys who went to his church. However, the roots were there and I will be discussing things from a more personal level on Monday.
Tom,
Ditto on what Dee expressed. You have been an inspiration to both of us.
Dee,
Before you write Monday’s post, you should watch this YouTube video of Ed Young Sr. together with Ed Young Jr. on stage at the 2010 C3 Conference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-tQ1-664m0&feature=related
It took place shortly after the investigative report aired on News 8.
Here are some of the remarks by Junior’s father:
“…most of us know in recent days, and it involves money. What they didn’t tell was that he and Lisa give away, I hate to give a number, maybe half or more than half of every dime they touch personally. It’s not what you make; it’s what you give. If he was hoarding it up, it’d be a different thing…he is a giver.”
Deb
He HAS given away more than half of what he touches. He used to shake hands after the service. If the claims are true and his “flock” has fallen from 20,000 to 8,000, he has driven (not given- simple exchange of consonants) away 2/3 of what he touched. LOL
““One other key point was that God will never tell you to leave a Bible practicing church. Stay in your house, and make it your house.”
-Ed Young Jr
So let me get this straight…
1) To be in Ed’s church you need to tithe
2) If you don’t tithe, Ed says you need to leave Ed’s church
3) But Ed’s church is a Bible practicing church
4) And God doesn’t want you to leave a Bible practicing church
Sounds like Ed wants you to stay and tithe to Ed’s church. Ed will take care of the rest.
Ed would have you believe that your only choice is to follow Ed…If you believe that, there is a bridge in Manhattan I’d like to sell you.”
Dr. Jon,
It is good to be king. Kings can make up all sorts of illogical rules and never be questioned because they are way up on a throne (stage) and do not take questions from the peasants.
Lydia
There are quite a few people at FC who are new to the faith. They are used to a Gospel as defined by Ed. One gentleman, who posted over at FBC Jax, said he didn’t like what Ed was teaching but felt guilty and wondered if he should fork over more money to this enterprise. I feel sorry for those who are introduced to Christ through the eyes of users. I fear some will walk away.
Are you going to write anything about Brian and Bobbi Houston and Hillsong? So many SBC churches sing their songs and also the Brooklyn Tabernacle songs. These are both charismatic organizations. It seems to me that we just accept everything now if it is called “Christian” and that Christianity is just becoming one big melting-pot where everything is ok. In reality, these are money-making corporations. Where is discernment these days?
Anna Anon,
Thanks for your comment and welcome to TWW! Yes, we plan to focus on Hillsong and Brian and Bobbi Houston in the coming weeks. Things are definitely not as rosy in this church as they might appear.
Just curious, have you ever attended Fellowship Church?
So, are charismatics not considered Christians now?
shadowspring,
I don’t have a problem with charismatics. That’s not the problem with Hillsong. I have quite a bit of research to do, so stay tuned. What I will be sharing has nothing to do with their being charismatic.
SS
I am afraid that there are some reports of abuse along the lines of SGM.We are investigating.
Anna
We have heard some reports of abuse in the Hillsong organization. I also got an email about 4 months ago re abuse in Brooklyn Tabernacle. We are investigating.
Deb: No, I have never attended Fellowship Church, and in fact had never heard of Ed Young, Jr. until I read about his antics on the blogs I read. By the way, I read your blog regularly and enjoy it.
Shadowspring: I was not saying that Charismatics are not Christians. I am not a Charismatic, however, I have noticed over the last ten years or so, that more and more SBC churches (that are traditionally not charismatic) have been becoming more-so. I think this movement is heavily influenced by the music which is often repetitive in nature and does not contain deep theological truths/doctrine like the old hymns. I just see a blending of sorts and I think the common denominator is Contemporary Christian Music. I did not mean to offend anyone, I was just trying to be brief with my comment about my interest in seeing a series done on Hillsong/Houston and the Brooklyn Tab.
Dee: I’m looking forward to reading what you have to say about Hillsong. There is so much about that organization that doesn’t seem right. I even like some of their songs, but I am burdened because all they appear to be is a money making machine. Should Christian’s support this kind of music because it’s called “Christian” and is popular, or do we have a responsibility to investigate these empires and see what their true agenda is. The same goes for the Brooklyn Tabernacle: no doubt they produce some powerful songs, but I have noticed that these songs can provoke emotion which some people equate to worship.
So, it’s the repetition instead of the beat that drives people to bad behavior these days, is it? So what part of “He loves us, oh how He loves us” is neither deep (Ephesians 3:14-20), nor theological (I John 4:7-8) nor true?
If there is spiritual abuse going on in the Hillsong organization and/or the Brooklyn Tabernacle choir, that is a result of greed and lust for power, not the style of their music. There is plenty of spiritual abuse going on in organizations that abhor contemporary Christian music.
I am sure you did not mean to offend anyone by your “guilty by association” implications, because I am sure you assumed everyone here would agree with you. That assumption, that CCM causes spiritual abuse, is laughable. Your opinion, that old hymns (the CCM of their day) are superior in content and composition is just that- an opinion.
Please don’t make the mistake of assuming your opinions are the same thing as deep spiritual insights. It is the Lord’s church you are condemning, the lambs for which Christ died. If you are condemning spiritual abuse, be clear that it exists in every denomination and style of worship. Greed and pride are the roots of spiritual abuse, not CCM, nor does a belief in dispensationalism make for a spotless church.
Shadowspring, Do you believe the wolves Paul talks about in Acts 20 were true believers? And why would Paul warn that they would be from “among you”?
How about these folks in Jude:
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Is he saying that are believers who are just having a bad sin day?
Or this in Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
It comes down to how can we help people recognize the wolves and hirlings. The wolves are not saved. the last thing we should be doing is acting like they ARE saved. That only mocks the sacrifice of the Cross and the New Life for believers. It is a mockery of the Cross to insist we cannot say wolves are not Christians.
For the record, this has nothing to do with Charismatic, Calvinists, etc. You will find wolves/hirlings in all sorts of denominations, methods, groups.
Anna Anon,
Regarding: “…but I have noticed that these songs can provoke emotion which some people equate to worship.”
I’m really wondering where the notion that “worship” (or the only kind of “worship” considered legitimate) is an intellectual, cerebral thing. To worship God or anything / anyone (deserving or not) is highly emotional. Heck, if all we can validate about ourselves is our “brain” with regards to God, how incredibly one-dimensional, how limiting in every way. It siphons off so much. We are emotional, we have emotions. We are created that way. That aspect of ourselves in addition to intellect, reasoning, intuition, touch, sound, etc…. it’s all valid and all works together in us to evaluate and respond. Are we suspicious of our emotion with regard to how we conduct ourselves with our families and friends? How in the world can one give and receive love and affection by brainpower only?? Why in the world the suggestion that this can only be appropriate where our relationship to God is concerned?
Elastigirl,
I agree with you to a certain extent. But after working with mega’s for 20 years, let me tell that most of it is manufactured for you. A lot of planning goes into “getting people emotional” at the right times.
Hi, Lydia. I very much agree. I know that some church services can be manipulative — I even think that at times it is not intentional — it’s just how things are done, unfortunately. I strongly feel that the way “church” in general in conducted is blindly following the established mold. Without actually giving it a whole lot of thought. “Is this necessary? Is this worthwhile? Is it good? Why are we even doing this, in the first place?”
But aside from being wary of manipulation in church settings, I think it’s an unnecessary constraint to have a wholesale suspicion of emotion in corporate christian gatherings. Emotion a person may feel in themselves, or emotion a person may observe in someone else. Joy, elation, celebration, hope, some kind of heart-rending, some kind of powerful emotion that is hard to put a name to (the release of pent up grief, for example)…. I think it’s quite obvious God has emotion. We have emotion. It’s a good thing, not something to be afraid of. Left unchecked it can certainly lead to bad places. But cerebral intellect left unchecked will also lead to bad places. We have a brain, we have the ability to reason, we have the ability to feel. We have the ability to express. They need to be in tension with one another, not one abandoned in favor of the other. To put a halt on one of them can’t be optimal.
Lydia, I am not sure how the scripture you referenced is applicable to whether or not Ed Young is a Christian nor why you feel qualified to determine whether or not his faith is genuine.
Is he fleecing the people of God? Obviously. It does not then follow that he is not a Christian. Christians through the ages have deceived themselves into believing that their actions were admirable, holy even, when they were in reality reprehensible. Things like burning dissenters at the stake, for example.
We don’t get to just declare brethren in gross error not “real” Christians.
As to the verse you quoted, do you have proof that Ed Young is denying the Lord Jesus Christ or using the grace of God to justify lewd behavior?
All I can say is that if these types can be true followers of Christ then the Cross was not needed. Scripture teaches: By their fruit you will know them. A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit.
Shadow, your thinking is pervasive in Christendom which is why our churches look like social clubs and ministry is a career ladder. Merchandising Jesus for personal gain. And it is the foundation for spiritual abuse.
And “Christians through the ages” is NOT a good indicator. Only scripture. Remember, in the OC, God tells us several times he only saved a remnant of His “CHOSEN” people. Why do we expect that Jesus hung on the Cross so we could live in willful and continual sin and call ourselves New Creations? That is like spitting on His sacrifice. There really are people who think they are saved but have never been spiritually changed. And that is because they have been taught easy believism and cheap grace.
We do not know who will be saved in the end. But we are taught to check fruit in the meantime. I have noticed you have ignored 1 Corin 5 in the other thread. It is really clear:
9In my other letter [b] I told you not to have anything to do with immoral people. 10But I wasn’t talking about the people of this world. You would have to leave this world to get away from everyone who is immoral or greedy or who cheats or worships idols. 11I was talking about your own people who are immoral or greedy or worship idols or curse others or get drunk or cheat. Don’t even eat with them! 12Why should I judge outsiders? Aren’t we supposed to judge only church members? 13God judges everyone else. The Scriptures say, “Chase away any of your own people who are evil.” (CET)
Isn’t Paul mean and judgemental? How does he have the right to make judgements on who is a brother or not? And why would he DARE teach the Corinthians to make such judgements? Because he loves those who think they are saved but are pretending! He wants them to be saved…so quit treating them like they already are!
Another problem is that we have dumbed down sin to the point that nothing is idolatry, very little is greedy anymore, etc. It becomes harder to recognize sin. (A good example of this is porn. Porn is at the grocery store while waiting in line. It is just that we are so desensitized to it,we do not think of it as porn. It is normal to see scantily clad women. It is like that with all sin…we become desensitized to it without the indwelling Holy Spirit.)
Elastigirl,
I should have been more clear. Because I have seen the manufactured emotions done in most churches (been part of the planning to my shame) I do not trust it in traditional organizations.
However, I have witnessed a move of the Holy Spirit in a small group of believers who met but planned nothing ahead of time..just praying and worhsiping.I cannot speak of it without being overcome. And there is no way to describe it. It was the first time I ever experienced what the Jesus described as ‘being in one mind”.
It is simply my opinion not to trust the institutional stuff. I am not speaking for others…just warning.
Lydia,
Paul calls them “your own people” In I Cor 5:11. He is specifically calling for Christians to reject wrongly behaving Christians from their lives. He also says that if they were not of “your own people” then there would be no need to correct them.
“Shadow, your thinking is pervasive in Christendom” Hahahaha! Don’t I wish. Being that influential would be awesome. Except what I really run into, is self-righteous gate keepers who think they get to decide who gets in to the kingdom and who is excluded.
“A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit.” If by that you mean that Christians never sin, why then you don’t know very many Christians. I have yet to meet a Christian who never bears bad fruit, including you.
This whole exchange between us has gone on this long because you won’t admit that maybe you went too far when you tried to disassociate Ed Young from Christianity by saying he wasn’t a “real” Christian.
Now you are trying to make an Ed Young defender out of me, when nothing I have written comes anywhere near defending Ed Young’s deplorable fund raising and extravagant lifestyle. I simple contend that you can’t say he’s not a Christian.
Further, I condemn this deplorable practice of turning the church into a business, and letting these business owners (er. pastors) keep their tax exempt status as a charity. I condemn it everywhere, not just in Ed Young’s congregation.
However I accept that it is a problem in Christendom. I do not explain away pastors and congregations that function in error as not truly Christian. That is where I disagreed with you.
If you think you have only good fruit, you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. (I John 1). There, you thump me with your Bible, I thump you back! 😉
“Paul calls them “your own people” In I Cor 5:11. He is specifically calling for Christians to reject wrongly behaving Christians from their lives. He also says that if they were not of “your own people” then there would be no need to correct them”
that is not true. he is explaining the difference between the
“world” and “professing believers”. So basically what you want it to say is that since those around Ed Young do not correct him or excommunicate him then we cannot question his fruit? But they are learning false teaching and bad behavior from Ed!
“Now you are trying to make an Ed Young defender out of me, when nothing I have written comes anywhere near defending Ed Young’s deplorable fund raising and extravagant lifestyle. I simple contend that you can’t say he’s not a Christian.”
You are defending Ed. You are saying that one can be like Ed and be saved. No problem. I think that is a dangerious lie that will only bring us more ‘two fold sons of hell’. I have NO idea if Ed will be saved before he dies. That is not my business. I can only look at behavior and teaching now and say that it is NOT of Christ. You want to tell me that is a sin to do. I simply disagree.
“However I accept that it is a problem in Christendom. I do not explain away pastors and congregations that function in error as not truly Christian. That is where I disagreed with you. ”
Then what on earth are they that continue in this for a long long time? This is not just feasting on milk. this is about teaching works salvation and the cult of personality.
“If you think you have only good fruit, you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. (I John 1). There, you thump me with your Bible, I thump you back!”
Where did I say that? I should hope that when someone sees me living in continual willful sin they will confront me and snatch me from the fire (see Titus). it is love that does that. Not hate. If I am a Christian celebrity, making my living by selling the Gospel, then I would hope I would be confronted publicly by many.
BTW: Read ALL of 1 John. The easy believism people love that verse but that is proof texting. keep reading all the rest of the book..example chapter 4. Check out verse 6 for example:
4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6****No one who abides in him keeps on sinning;(Q) no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.**** 7Little children,(R) let no one deceive you.(S) Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8(T) Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
pretty judgemental of John, huh?
Shadowspring
i remember having a conversation with an elder at a wonderful church. I was a little startled by the number of self-professing Christians in Dallas when I first arrived there. I grew up in Massachusetts. When you make a stand there, as I did as a 17 year old kid, people look at you rather oddly.I don’t think my mother has ever fully recuperated!
So, I blithely went off to Dallas, assuming that Christian really, really meant something radical. Then I hit a wall. Everyone proclaimed the faith. Just about everyone had “walked the aisle.” But, I was totally flummoxed. Many of them did not appear, in any way, shape or form, Christians in their chosen lifestyles.
So I asked the elder about this. He told me that the longer he had been an elder, the more he believed that there are far fewer Christians out there than is currently thought. Frankly, I was relieved. I thought I had this faith thing totally wrong. I am grateful that it is not up to me to decide who is saved and who isn’t. But, as evidence by this blog, I will call out those who are causing havoc in the church.
Thanks for participating in the debate!
dee,
I am all for calling leaders out for their hypocrisy, greed and other betrayals of their peoples trust. It needs to be done.
I am unsure why Lydia is singling me out to disparage my character and accusing me of bringing in evil upon us all as in these sentences:
“You are defending Ed. You are saying that one can be like Ed and be saved. No problem. I think that is a dangerous lie that will only bring us more ‘two fold sons of hell’.”
Lydia is full of pride and refuses to concede that she can’t merely dismiss Ed Young as a non-Christian because he is a charlatan as well. I have successfully explained my position several times. She is the one red in the face, pounding the keyboards with accusations of evil. My thoughts are what is wrong with the whole church today. I am responsible for the state of the American business church model. Hyperbole and hatred with a fair dose of Bible thumping just to get her point across.
I get it Lydia, you hate me. Not only that, you can’t stand anyone to disagree with you.
Good luck with that. Somehow I don’t think that God is very impressed with all your noise and fury. I know I’m not, anyway.
“Shadow, your thinking is pervasive in Christendom which is why our churches look like social clubs and ministry is a career ladder. Merchandising Jesus for personal gain. And it is the foundation for spiritual abuse.” -the quote where Lydia blames the modern state of Christianity on me and my ideas.
So, Karl, you still out there? 🙂 Could you send some love my way? Once again the church seems to have run short. Maybe an atheist could help cover the difference.
Shadowspring
Here are some hugs from the Piedmont.
Shadowspring
Sometimes, the blog medium works and sometimes it doesn’t. Because I have been at this game for awhile, I have grown to know, understand and love our regulars. First, I am so glad you have chosen to grace us with your presence. You are a kind and thoughtful person and I can’t wait to meet you one of these days since it seems, from some clues, that we don’t live far apart.
Some of todays mega-churches, authoritarian pastors, prosperity pimps and extreme legalists have done much to hurt those within the church. They have used the church for their personal gain and have stepped on people along the way. I am not sure whose cause these folks represent but they sure as heck don’t represent the Bible. But, throughout the ages of the church, wicked and egotistical men (and yes, it has been primarily men since they didn’t let women into leadership so this one is on the men, generally) have used people badly.
Through it all, there has been a remnant who have followed the Lord. It was a remnant in the OT and I think there is a remnant now. In fact, I belong to a group of people who, tongue in cheek, have called themselves The Remnant.
Did you know that Richard Dawkins and a bunch of other atheists have come out saying that Adolph Hitler was a Christian because he did not renounce his Catholicism? I am hoping to do an article on this soon so long as Ed and gang stop providing me with fodder. So many strange pastors, so little time…but I digress.
There are many hurting people out there who have seen the light and are determined not to let others be hurt. I am one of those, so is Deb, so is Lydia.
Sometimes, our zeal to stop the nonsense is misinterpreted as bitterness (I hate that word- mordant is cooler), anger, etc.
I know this may be hard to believe but I bet that Lydia and you would end up being friends if you met and sat talking over some soothing chai. Lydia is a warrior who is determined not to let the crazies run the church. She has seen much more than many of us and has an insight that few have.She has walked away from the madness.
I love Lydia. She has taught me so much regarding the issues surrounding the role of women. She understands the megachurch mess and has given me a peek of the destruction that celebrity pastors have caused in their zeal to become the next “thing.”
Try to see beyond the printed words to the soul. I think you two would have much in common.
Finally, I wish you could have seen the house I grew up in. My father was Russian and given to loud outbursts of emotion regarding any subject. Except, he was really just showing his passion for his subject. He never meant to be mean or unloving. I knew this. So we would all sit around the dinner table, eating pierogis and screaming at each other. No harm, no foul, just passion tempered by bouts of laughter, just as loud as the argument.
I hope this helps you. Just know that your presence is valued.
Dee,
I’m showing my ignorance here. What is a “pierogis”? I could look it up, but I’ll wait for your response.
Thanks!
Oh my! I have been negligent in our friendship. Pierogi are crescent shaped pasta pockets usually stuffed with potato and cheese (my favorite) but also a special cabbage stuffing we call kapusta, and a few other things. My Russian grandma taught me how to make them. You have not lived so I promise you some pierogi in the near future.
” get it Lydia, you hate me. Not only that, you can’t stand anyone to disagree with you.”
You could not be more wrong. I do not hate you one bit! I have been debating a position using scripture. Not what I wish it would say but what it says. Actually, I don’t even blame you for your errant position because this teaching that those who do consistent evil can be Christians is so pervasive that it seems normal. I realize I am dealing with a totally accepted doctrine. And what is so totally devastating is that this topic IS SALVIC! It is not a tertiary doctrine that we can simply dismiss. IThat means it has enternal life implications. It is worth debating because we must defend the Sacrifice of our Savior on the Cross. We are New Creatures. He did not hang on that Cross so believers could remain in willful consistent sin.
The nuance of this issue is this: We cannot know who is saved in the end. But we can know if there is bad fruit. And a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Consistent willfut bad fruit is the key indicator. (See Hebrews 10:26-31)
I think Dee touched on this in another thread saying how moving to Dallas was a wake up call on this issue. And that is so true! “Christian” is a cultural position in the South. But this bad teaching is spreading all over the world. Missionaries are taking it to the 3rd world!
Do Christians sin? YES! But the difference is that they cannot stay in sin because they have the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts them of their sin and the grace that grants true repentance.
I pray you will study the passages in context I have shared. Salvation is free. We do not have to earn it. but it is NOT easy as so many mistakenly teach to grow their churches. Paul said he was crucified with Christ, yet he lives. His point is also that he WAS chief of all sinners and was still saved. REally horrible people can be saved. Even those who killed and imprisoned Christians. But they do not stay that way. That is the point.
Jesus said we must take up our Cross and follow Him.
“So, are charismatics not considered Christians now?”
Of course they are considered Christians, as are Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of Christ… But just because you call yourself a Christian does not necessarily mean that you are one. When someone becomes a Christian, God does not mark you in some way on the outside but rather transforms you on the inside. That is why the only way for someone to discern if someone is a Christian is if they produce good fruit. CCM is a giagantic money-making industry. There are no “Christian” industries or corporations.
“So, it’s the repetition instead of the beat that drives people to bad behavior these days, is it? So what part of “He loves us, oh how He loves us” is neither deep (Ephesians 3:14-20), nor theological (I John 4:7-8) nor true?”
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that repetition drives people to bad behavior. A lot of CCM IS repetitious and without content. In the lyrics you just quoted, “He” could be taken to mean anyone – your husband, friend, or Buddha. I’m not saying all CCM is like this, but a lot of it is. BTW, I love the scripture passages you gave. If only the song content was more like them!
“If there is spiritual abuse going on in the Hillsong organization and/or the Brooklyn Tabernacle choir, that is a result of greed and lust for power, not the style of their music. There is plenty of spiritual abuse going on in organizations that abhor contemporary Christian music.”
Again, you are putting words in my mouth. Did I say anything about spiritual abuse? I enjoy reading this blog because they do a good job in uncovering corruption in the church. It may be spiritual abuse, it may not be. And I do agree with you that there is plenty of spiritual abuse AND corruption in EVERY Christian organization where money or power is involved. As far as style, I believe that the style of Christian music should be different than the world. Music has the power to greatly affect our emotions. Saul’s soul was soothed by David’s music. Music used in movies enables us to feel suspense, fear, sadness… Believe me, music is used in churches to evoke emotion and certain responses. The Bible tells us to not love the world nor the things in the world. In my opinion, CCM for the most part is worldly. My feelings won’t be hurt if you don’t agree with me.
“I am sure you did not mean to offend anyone by your “guilty by association” implications, because I am sure you assumed everyone here would agree with you. That assumption, that CCM causes spiritual abuse, is laughable. Your opinion, that old hymns (the CCM of their day) are superior in content and composition is just that- an opinion.”
I am not naive enough to assume everyone here would agree with me. And you are putting words in my mouth yet again when you say that I assume that CCM causes spiritual abuse. I never said that. Reread my post. You are right, it is my opinion that a lot of the older hymns have more doctrinal content than most of the CCM.
“Please don’t make the mistake of assuming your opinions are the same thing as deep spiritual insights. It is the Lord’s church you are condemning, the lambs for which Christ died. If you are condemning spiritual abuse, be clear that it exists in every denomination and style of worship. Greed and pride are the roots of spiritual abuse, not CCM, nor does a belief in dispensationalism make for a spotless church.”
I have no idea what you are trying to say here and how it relates to my comment. I do believe that by reading and studying the Bible with the Holy Spirit’s help that I will learn truth and grow spiritually. However, I do not think that my opinions are deep spiritual insights. I am not condemning the LORD’s church. Do you think that Hillsong is the Lord’s church? And where did I say I was a dispensationalist? Or did you just assume that I am one? BTW, Jesus Christ is the spotless Lamb of God. We are nothing but poor, wretched, blind sinners until He saves us, then He calls us His sheep.
Also, I do think that there are problems in the charismatic movement. (My opinion) No one wants to talk about them because they will be accused of attacking the brethren. But they are there and influencing many people. I believe that when you are saved, you get all of the Holy Spirit you are ever going to get. Ephesians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.” Nowhere in the NT does it say or infer that you will get a second blessing if/when you speak in tongues.
Charismatics tend to use myticism which is a system of belief that attempts to perceive spiritual reality apart from objective, verifiable facts. Feelings and intuition are used to determine truth rather than the Bible. Mysticism has subverted biblical authority within the movement and has replaced it with personal experience as the standard for truth. I believe that the Bible is our only source of revelation and truth. Our thoughts, ideas, and experiences are validated or invalidated on the basis of how they compare with the Bible.
Charismatics tend to use poor hermeneutics. According to Gordon Fee, himself a Pentecostal, “Scripture is the Word of God and is to be obeyed. In place of scientific hermeneutics there developed a kind of pragmatic hermeneutics–obey what should be taken literally; spiritualize, allegorize, or devotionalize the rest…”
I want you to know that I went to your blog because I was trying to understand you and I hoped it would help in responding back to you. My heart aches for you and what you are going through at home and I will pray for you and your family. After reading some of your entries and comments though I have to question whether you really do know the saving power of Jesus. It might be the reason why you think that other Christians do not accept you and why you are better able to relate to athiests. Do you believe everyone will be saved? Because in one of your posts it seemed that you alluded to it and added something to the effect of “It’s all good in the end.” You also said that in God there is no hate. God has many attributes, and love is only one of them. He is Holy and Just and “in the end” will display his wrath. The end will be good for His own, those who trust in Him, but for the ungodly, they will be thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan and his angels. I hope and pray that you do not put all your trust for your salvation in experience, but rather put your trust in Christ alone and grow in Him through the Word of God (Bible) alone.
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