"Jesus called us to care for the suffering, to care for the least of these. We often overlook them. At times their lives are so disrupted and severe they require intervention. These people and their families are isolated, stigmatized and rejected…It's time for the SBC to be on the front lines of mental health challenges."
Senior Pastor at Cross Church, Arkansas
Southern Baptist messengers have just returned home from Houston, where they gathered for the denomination's Annual Meeting. During the two-day event, some interesting business was conducted, which captured the attention of the media – both Christian and secular. Christianity Today, on its Gleanings website, broke the news as follows:
"Within an hour, leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) approved three interesting resolutions today at the denomination's annual meeting in Houston, Texas.
Just after 10 a.m., convention attendees approved a resolution that calls "on all Southern Baptists to report allegations of child abuse to authorities." The resolution, filed more or less in response to the high-profile lawsuit against Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), was amended to ask that "SBC leaders and employees practice the highest level of discernment in affiliating with groups or individuals that possess 'questionable' policies and practices in protecting children against sexual abuse," according to Baptist Press (BP), which live-blogged the morning's votes.
Fifteen minutes later, SBC members weighed in on mental illness…
Finally, SBC members expressed their dissatisfaction with the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) and its recent decision to allow gay youths as members."
Our previous post highlighted the resolution concerning the protection of children against abuse, with which we were extremely pleased, and next week we hope to address the resolution involving the Boy Scouts. The focus of today's post is the resolution regarding mental illness.
Jeff Brumley of the Associated Baptist Press shared this overview of what transpired on the convention floor:
"Ronnie Floyd, an Arkansas pastor who’s become a passionate advocate for mental health in the wake of national and personal tragedies involving psychological disorders.
“It’s a massive issue,” Floyd said, citing the Sandy Hook massacre and suicides by children of two friends: Saddleback Pastor Rick Warren and SBC Executive Committee President Frank Page.
It’s not enough for Southern Baptists to respond to such situations after the fact, Floyd told ABPnews Wednesday at the George R. Brown Convention Center in Houston.
“My plea is, let’s be proactive on this issue,” he said…
In passionate remarks presenting the motion on Tuesday, Floyd said churches must not be silent on the subject and must combat the stigma of mental illness. Most churches, he added, do a fine job meeting the spiritual and physical needs of people, and must now learn to address emotional needs.
“It’s time for the Southern Baptist Convention … to rise up with compassion” to let those afflicted with mental illnesses know “that we walk with them,” Floyd said."
Thanks to live streaming, I saw Floyd present this motion and later discuss it at length before all of the messengers. I was so grateful that he addressed this important matter in such an eloquent way.
In its article Mental Health Issues Garner SBC Attention, the Baptist Press provided these details:
"The resolution offered by the SBC Committee on Resolutions sought to "affirm, support and share God's love and redemption" while opposing "all stigmatization and prejudice" to those with mental health challenges.
The resolution identified such mental health issues as autism disorders, intellectual disability, mental health conditions like schizophrenia, clinical depression, anxiety orders, bipolar disorders and diseases of the aged including dementia and Alzheimer's…
Specifically addressing suicide as "a tragedy, leaving heartache, pain and unanswered questions in its wake," the resolution urged that families of victims be treated with "great care, concern and compassion" from Christians and churches. Included in this is the "assurance that those in Christ cannot be separated from the eternal love of God in Christ Jesus."
And it called for churches to find ways to love, minister and develop methods and resources to those who struggle with these challenges and their families."
The Baptist Press piece discussed additional amendments that were offered with regard to the proposed resolution on mental illness. According to the BP article:
"…the resolution was debated for 15 minutes as two amendments were offered that sought to affirm the sufficiency of Scripture as the final authority on all mental health issues. Messengers defeated the amendments as discussion centered on the recognition that any mental illness, just as any other physical condition, needs medical care.
A third amendment was offered by Steven Owensby, pastor of First Baptist Church in Enoree, S.C. — 'that the mission of Jesus described as His own in Luke 4:18-19 should also be the mission of His Church, namely to proclaim liberty to those who are oppressed with godly biblical counsel.'
Resolutions Committee chair Steve Lemke, provost of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, regarded the amendment as 'friendly,' adding that 'affirming biblical, godly, pastoral counsel is an essential in local church ministry.' "
Perhaps those who read our previous posts on biblical counseling saw the same RED FLAGS we did in those amendments — "sufficiency of Scripture as the final authority on all mental health issues" (which was defeated) and "godly biblical counsel" (which was affirmed).
In our upcoming post, we will expound on our concerns about 'biblical counseling' when used to treat mental illness. We are greatly concerned that phrases like 'biblical counseling' and 'godly biblical counsel' squeaked (sneaked) into the resolution approved by the SBC messengers. We have learned quite a bit about biblical / nouthetic counseling, and we are troubled that Christian counselors are implementing it.
Until then, you may also want to read an article featured in The Christian Post entitled "Suicide, Mental Health at Forefront of Southern Baptist Convention Annual Meeting".
As we conclude today's post, we want to honor a brother in Christ – Todd Wilhelm – who left the following comment on our blog:
"I made this video today because I was happy that the SBC passed the amendment put forth by Peter Lumpkins. I wish to thank him, Dee and Deb and the hundreds of others who have seen fit to enter the fray and fight for those without a voice. I know the battle can be wearisome at times, but the Lord hears our cry. God bless all of you."
We know that Todd has sacrificed much to fight against child sex abuse in the church, and we greatly admire his courage and convictions.
God bless you, Todd!
Lydia's Corner: 1 Kings 9:1-10:29 Acts 8:14-40 Psalm 130:1-8 Proverbs 17:2-3
The statement regarding mental illness concerns for numerous reasons, one being that they don’t even understand what the term means. For instance, Autism..it’s not a mental illness and no amount of biblical counseling will fix it. I understand that this might be a step in, the right direction BUT,and that’s a but, they need to understand what mental illness is.
sorry, typing from a phone is not the best idea..
You’re right, jaysgirl84. At least those with Schizophrenia and Bi-Polar Disorders may be shown a little more grace, may be encouraged rather than discouraged from taking their needed meds in the SBC now. a step.
I went thru some secular psychotherapy; saw this – Lawsuit – Zo
_________________________________________________________________________
Update on Castlewood Treatment Center Lawsuit: Other Ex-Patients Come Forward to the Press
December 11, 2011
According to St. Louis Today (stltoday.com), other ex-patients of Castlewood Treatment Center are now coming forward to the press, with their own allegations corroborating some of the allegations in the complaint filed November 21, 2011 by Lisa Nasseff against Castlewood and its Director Mark Schwartz. Additionally, some former patients at Castlewood posted comments on the article, also corroborating Lisa Nasseff’s allegations. A 28 year old former patient stated that “Satanic ritual abuse was talked about a lot in group therapy” but yet ironically she felt that Castlewood seemed like a cult to her. Another woman who reports she was at the center at the same time as Lisa Nasseff, maintains that “Schwartz told the other residents she had returned to her cult.” and she saw several women “screaming and shaking” having flashbacks of abuse and hearing other patients saying they would die if they left.
It is most encouraging that other St. Louis mental health professionals such as Dr. Lynne Moritz have the courage to take a stand in challenging the “parts” therapy, Internal Family Systems, that is the main treatment offered by Castlewood. Unfortunately, all too often, mental health professionals are reluctant to publicly criticize their own. I can personally attest that this can frequently result in shunning and accusations of being “mean” spirited. However, what I consider “mean” is standing by and saying nothing when a therapist is engaging in potentially harmful therapies and making unsupported claims. It is a refreshing change to see St. Louis therapists who are not afraid to speak out.
Mark Schwartz is no longer making comments to the press. This is not surprising, as most lawyers advise clients involved in lawsuits not to comment publicly. However, Executive Director Nancy Albus is continuing to publicly defend the center and Schwartz. In an all too familiar refrain, she stated that Schwartz is an “internationally respected in the field of eating disorders.” However, at this point, arguments from authority are simply not enough. Really all that does is to provide evidence he is considered a public figure, but the question remains, respected by whom and what has he done to deserve it?
588,000 Google hits if you type in “Psychotherapy Malpractice Lawsuit.”
Be afraid, be very, very afraid. Zo
You correctly spot the indicator of why many SBCers, especially clergy, are far afield on mental health issues – the “Biblical counseling” wording.
There is another large issue that affects the SBC and mental health issues and that is the inevitable and career stifling stigma that follows any clergy admitting to clinical depression or other serious mental health problem. They instantly become damaged goods.
Every community where I have served as pastor has a tale of a pastor who committed suicide.
Perhaps the SBC will do something that has the potential to change such attitudes. I’m rather skeptical of its efficacy, though.
Putting the autism spectrum in with mental illness really concerns me, since it’s not at all a mental illness and no amount of counseling or medications will completely solve the issue. I feel it’s insensitive and ignorance on the SBC’s part to put them together. My son is on the autism spectrum, and we left a certain church because of this (we weren’t members in the first place). My son would get very upset when the pastor would pound on the pulpit and yell during his sermon. Loud noises and erratic behavior upset him. After not coming for a few Sundays, we talked to the pastor about why we would not be attending his church anymore, and were told that we were neglecting our son’s religious education and catering to his whims! The insensitivity of not understanding his condition!
I am hoping that with this resolution, churches will begin to acknowledge the varying shades of mental health issues (and developmental issues), but I won’t hold my breath for it!
At first reading I was pleased with the 3rd amendment, then realized from your comments that I had misunderstood its intent.
I read it with a meaning of “those who are oppressed *by* godly, biblical counsel” instead of “godly, biblical counsel” *towards* “those who are oppressed.”
And really, that’s what the church should do. That is its mission. But it should be *in addition to* appropriate medical help, not instead of.
Lola wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am concerned that if these issues are not dealt with properly, those who are suffering in some way may be hurt instead of being helped.
RB wrote:
So too those with anxiety disorders, clinical depression, and other types of emotional or mental health problems. Some of these have biological origins and can be treated with medication.
I think even low self esteem needs to be acknowledged. A lot of people feel like trash.
I did for many years, thanks in part to being a shy, nerdy kid who was bullied a lot in teen years and in college, and having a very negative father. I even wondered if God really loved me or not.
But most conservative Christians have conniption fits over the word “self” in “self esteem” and some deny it exists, or they mock it, chalk it up to being secular in origin, believe the concept is evil and selfish (they will blather on about having “Christ esteem” -?), even though the Bible says you are to ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’
emr wrote:
I am greatly concerned that some within the SBC will advocate ‘biblical counseling’ over secular counseling by professionally trained psychiatrists and psychologists. I will be addressing my concerns in the upcoming post.
@ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
Zo
And your point is?
Are you trying to imply that secular counseling is satanic?
Please clarify why you felt it was important to enlighten us with that information.
Quote from original post:
I’m not surprised there is still this massive ignorance and stubbornness by some Christians in holding on to this thinking that mental health disorders can be treated by Bible- reading only.
I had clinical depression for years, since I was a child. (I was diagnosed by psychiatrists.) I also had anxiety disorders.
I was a very devout, clean- living Christian from a young age, so I didn’t commit any sin which caused me to have depression or anxiety.
I get very angry with Christians who insist any and all mental health problems are due to one’s personal sin, because that is not always the case for everyone who is suffering.
I used to pray for a healing, and I never got it, not from prayer.
I used to read the Bible, trying to find the answer in there. While it was comforting to know I was not alone (I read about Bible characters who had what appeared to be depression), it did not cure me of my depression or panic attacks.
Reading books by secular authors (and by one or two Christian psychologists) finally helped me to overcome most of my depression and anxiety problems- not Bible reading, and not by dwelling on what sin I may or may not have done to bring it on, but by reading books that explained how I got to be that way and how to overcome it.
On a last note, there are parallels to how Christians react to those suffering from psychological wounds to just about any other kind of suffering, which is, many tend to be horrible at comforting hurting people.
After someone close to me died a few years ago, and I went looking for support, I was subjected to platitudes, cliches, judgement, condemnation (from other Christians).
It was the same reaction I got when I told Christians about having depression – you get cliches, judgement, criticism, and from the Word of Faith types, “you wren’t praying long enough or didn’t have enough faith!”
It just runs the gamut no matter what topic:
Most often, if you are a Christian who is suffering due to “X,” (whatever “X” may be), you won’t get practical support, empathy, love, or encouragement from other Christians, but usually lots of blame, Bible quotes, unsolicited advice, or judgement.
I think more than just educating about the specific topic of mental health, Christians need to sit through “Empathy 101” courses where they are taught how to treat people who are suffering from any difficulty in life, whether it be mental health affliction, death, sickness, job loss, divorce, etc.
@ Deb:
I think the “Bible only alone” outlook for dealing with mental health problems is dangerous.
If you’re a Christian with depression, and you’re suicidal, and Bible reading is not helping or working to alleviate these feelings, you feel very, very trapped.
It makes you feel even more hopeless when every Christian or preacher you meet or hear insists Bible reading (and/or faith or prayer only) are the only acceptable, proper, “biblical,” God-approved remedies.
I spent years and years Bible reading and pleading with God for a healing.
(My parents also took me to psychiatrists during my teen years and 20s, and I went on anti depressant medications for awhile. The medications and doctors didn’t help me.)
When you don’t get healed, even after all that Bible reading and prayer, and you are sincerely trusting God to help you, but He is not, you feel even more trapped.
You begin feeling as though the promises in the Bible don’t apply to you, or God is not listening or doesn’t care. It makes you feel even more hopeless.
Bible reading alone, prayer alone, or blaming yourself (“I must have done some sin which has caused this”) do not work.
It’s really easy for Christians who have never suffered from deep depression (or other ailments) themselves to sit there and bloviate and give pat solutions (which don’t work) to those who are afflicted.
Deb wrote:
I smell Scientology with a Christianese coat of paint…
Daisy wrote:
Total Depravity 101 and it’s conjoined twin Worm Theology —
“Man sees a cute little baby, GOD SEES A TOTALLY DEPRAVED SINNER!!!!!”
William Thornton wrote:
That’s also true of the American military.
Unmarried or never-married people are also shut out form leadership positions in many churches.
Unmarried Pastor, Seeking a Job, Sees Bias
Lola wrote:
Me too. But then, I’m a quiet introvert. I’ve never been diagnosed with autism. Loud noises can set off panic attacks in me, and at a lower level, they un-nerve me.
I’m sorry your former preacher was insensitive towards your family.
Prozac turns minows into killers? (Saw this article on Yahoo)
http://gma.yahoo.com/too-much-prozac-turns-minnows-killers-030551271–abc-news-health.html
@ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas: Here is the problem with your example. There are idiots in both secular and biblical counseling circles. For every bizarre secular example, I could counter with a “biblical” example.
Some Christians attempt to prove their legitimacy by demonizing those outside of their groups. If Christians in biblical counseling groups want to prove their legitimacy, they need to present peer reviewed, prospective randomized trials to show they have a superior approach.
Amazing all the things that go on when you take a computer break!!!
This subject is very interesting to me. First of all, so many times mental illness is a result of nutritional deficiencies. Not always!!! In cases of PTSD, obviously!! However, in ladies who have more than two children close together, and in men who are not taking care of themselves, there are almost always nutritional imbalances.
I have a BIG problem with someone telling a SAHM with 3 kids that her problem is spiritual!!! There are issues that cannot be fixed with more prayer, confession of sins, and more Bible study. Ish.
There are also problems that aren’t going to be fixed necessarily with psychology/phychiatry because again, there is an underlying nutritional deficiency. When you address that deficiency with real whole food or whole food supplements, so many have found that the whole body is now better, including and especially the mind. And if the mental isn’t quite there yet, the nutritional balance now allows them to process former pain/abuse/stress.
When we begin to look at each person as a whole person with all systems working together in harmony and not try to separate out the spiritual from the mental from the physical, wellness of spirit, mind, and body occurs.
@ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas: Could you please nuance your comments. I am against over prescribing of medications. But Prozac has been helpful to some who suffer. Its usage needs to be monitored by psychiatrists. Oh yeah, that’s right. Biblical counselors trained at seminaries are not MDs and cannot prescribe medications. Could that have something to do with their bias? It is such a pain to have to go 4 years to medical school and then 4 years in residency. So why not say “Drugs are bad?”
Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:
Dee — I think you’re right. It looks as though Zo is a nouthetic or “biblical counseling” advocate. Nouthetic and “biblical counseling” are code words/phrases for “the Bible only is sufficient to solve all of your problems.” These guys are rabidly anti-psychology and anti-psychiatry. Basically they want you to just snap out of your problems in life. It’s really common for them to post articles and use those articles to mock all medical and scientific advances in the field of mental health.
@ Lola: I am also upset by the autism designation. I believe that this shows the woefully inadequate understanding of mental heath by some Christian groups. including those running programs in seminaries. Perhaps opening this door will allow the church to get out of the Dark Ages.
I was at the meeting and voted against both amendments. Lemke said that the “sufficiency of Scripture” amendment was not appropriate because it ignored the medical aspects of mental illness. But then Lemke received the “biblical counsel” amendment as “friendly.”
I read both of these actions together. If one proposes to a group of sincere Southern Baptists that anyone in any situation should receive godly bibilical counseling, that is going to be warmly received.
Context is everything here. The messengers clearly and correctly perceived that the first suggested amendment was an attempt to deny the medical aspects of mental illness. The messengers were having none of that.
The second suggested amendment may have been trying to achieve the same thing, but was not perceived as such.
In the end, however, one has to go by the actual words of the amended resolution. So, we ended up with something that can be read to mean something that the messengers may not have intended.
This kind of thing happens. It’s regrettable, but it happens.
The people who believe in a “biblical counseling only” type of approach may try to use the Resolution toward their ends, but if the messengers are an indication of the people in the pews, I am hoping those efforts will not go far.
Janey, Deb, don’t kill the messenger. I’m just suggesting GREAT CARE should be taken when suggesting secular psychology is superior to Biblical Counseling.
Not a NANK guy myself.
Anonymous wrote:
Way to go, Anonymous!
@ Anonymous: The SBC is going through some difficult days. The decline in membership is steady. The decline in attendance at the convention is disconcerting. Timmy Brister, on another blog, appears to indicate that there is better attendance at their T4G, TGC meetings which is true.However that is due to theological affinity.
There appears to be some moderation in their statements. The Boy Scouts were not thrown out of SBC churches and there was no condemnation of those who wished to continue with BSA. My husband will write on this subject soon. My son is a third generation eagle Scout.
The child abuse resolution was passed albeit there seems to be some some attempt by the SBC to downplay this event. It may not be strong but it is a start.
Finally, they are finally talking about mental health. It is sad that it took the suicide of the children of leaders to make this occur. How like the world the church is when it come to who is important. The biblical counseling stuff is difficult, especially with some of the programs surrounding this. It rather shocks me that a weekend course in counseling coupled with reading a few book “qualifies”a person to be a lay counselor.
I think there are difficult days ahead for the evangelical/Reformed movements. We are losing in the court of public opinion and, to be frank, I think we are our own worst enemy.
Thanks for your informative comment.
Maybe part of the problem is a lack of understanding about the nature of sin? Mostly broadly, “sin” is what we label anything that goes awry. Sin = war, Down’s Syndrome, lies, car accidents, cancer, theft, addiction, porn, PTSD, graft, spina bifida, mental illness, fraud, murder, etc, etc. Heck, one might even argue that entropy is “sin” and go around scrubbing everything of dirt and bacteria!
I think that some people try to make “sin” manageable/controllable by turning it all into personal fault. Thus we get Piper attributing tornados to church gay-supporters. Likewise, the grouchy pastor calling autism “whims”. People with this viewpoint may also be inclined to make the Bible a cure-all, because the Bible is “controllable” too, in that if you read/apply it “correctly”, your life will be guaranteed “righteous” and “blessed” (even if only turning the Angry God into a Smiling God). Thus nouthetic counseling (which this mental illness clause address). Including their exclusions of medications (Medications mean it’s not sin!)
This past week, I put my rant in the wrong place—echurch. Sorry Wade! But ignorance about the nature of evil is a big issue, ISTM. We don’t understand what it is, how it works, what it means. It is personal or generational or systemic (cultural, communal), natural or imposed, easier to weed out or intractable, deliberate or careless, etc.
Thus we also do the same thing with “grace” – it becomes a generic cover-all and loses nuance and specificity because we do not look at sin, which is why we need it. Thus, “Restore the child sexual abuser because he asked forgiveness and demand that the victim accept.”
IMO
No offense to them, but some forms of ‘biblical’ counseling is their form of dealing with it ‘in house’. We have seen their form of ‘in house’ dealings when it came to SGM, and other things.
Alonzo
There are so many branches of secular psychology out there that one cannot make a blanket statement on what constitutes secular counseling. Here is a great example. Cognitive behavioral therapy has been extremely effective. It has been utilized by Christian psychiatrists since it meshes well with Biblical thinking. You can read about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy
Let me give you an example. You have a person who is depressed. Said person makes statements such as "I am just a loser." CB therapy retrains the person to go through steps to evaluate what they just said. The person evaluates that they are not always a loser but in certain situations made some choices that were not smart. The person modifies their thinking to say "In that situation I made a poor choice but in many other situations in my life, I make correct choices." Christian counselors can then add Bible verses to assure the individual that God does not see them as losers. etc.
This therapy was developed by secular thinkers. It is vital for Christian to understand that God gives common grace to all. That means an atheist could actually come up with a good idea that could help people struggling with mental illness.
dee wrote:
I believe the TGC / T4G movement has peaked. Why? Because there are too many Calvinista leaders and not enough followers to sustain it.
Hannah Thomas wrote:
I fear that SGM was a testing ground for this kind of 'biblical counseling'.
A small step in the right direction, but a very small one, and it leaves the door very much open for someone to insist on “godly counsel” or “biblical counseling” as a substitute for medical care and even for common sense. I would have been much more encouraged if they had been able to affirm the value of psychological counseling and psychiatric treatment, but the fact is that doing so would have freaked out no small number of them. Well, maybe they finally are making their way into the 20th century. Let me know when they get to the 21st.
And yes, this is a rant. I have a family member who is a nouthetic counselor and I’ve seen first-hand how destructive this is. Until conservative evangelicalism repudiates it as the nonsense it is, I’m staying away.
@ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
@ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
Do you think Prozac is the only medication that ends as a waste product from human beings? Everything we take into our bodies that isn’t absorbed is eliminated. I wonder what effects chemotherapy drugs or antibiotics have on “minnows” and other wild life? No one seems to have a problem with people taking those drugs to save a life. Prozac helps save lives.
Medications are not made and tested on the basis of every living creature taking them. They are tested for specific uses. I wouldn’t take my dog’s medicine, so why is it a surprize that a certain medication has a certain negative effect on a minnow?
All this being said, I am very concerned with the overuse of medications and the monetary temptations that come with the “business” of medications. Likewise, I’m just as concerned with Biblical counseling that refuses to look at the physical aspects of emotional and mental illnesses that need trained medical attention.
dee wrote:
Why is it so hard for some Christians to accept common grace in the area of psychiatry and psychology?
Deb wrote:
Let’s hope all will see the big fat “F” on their failed test and make positive changes in their own churches.
John wrote:
I, too, feel the same way as you. I spoke with a well-known Christian psychiatrist who was the head of psychiatry for one of the foremost medical institutions in the US. He said nouthetic counseling is very dangerous.
I think that the people are beginning to vote with their feet. Money and church attendance are down in the US. The mega churches only grow by co-opting other Christians to come to their church instead.
I think the only good that the resolution did was to get the discussion going. However, until these groups focus on our internal problems with things like mental health as opposed to being condemning the outside world while inside we are a mess, the church will see a decline.
We are losing in the court of public opinion because we do not know what is important. Child sexual abuse trumps Boy Scouts every day.
Lola wrote:
The common thread here is that it involves the brain. And in very broad terms to most Christians, that’s where the soul is. (I’m not saying I agree with this but that’s the way most take it.) Now you have an infected finger nail, treat it with whatever it doesn’t matter to the soul. Need a lung transplant, go ahead it doesn’t involve your soul.
Brain chemistry/wiring/whatever isn’t quite right??? Well that’s my soul and God would not have made me “wrong” so it must be a sin issue. Can’t be medical.
I was raised by a bi-polar mother who feels she’s the best Christian on the planet and only in her 70s started to admit there just possible maybe might be a small issue with depression. 🙁
As to autism, it’s is like many mental illnesses in that is likely has to do with the brain. As to whether or not the cause is in the brain that’s still open. And we know less about the cause and treatment of autism than most other mental issues. And there’s no metal illness where even the experts aren’t groping in the dark. Just more dark and groping with autism at this time. There may turn out to be a medicine in the future that helps (cures?) it. Maybe in conjunction with counseling. At this time with that one we have more unknown unknowns than known unknowns.
My point is the label of mental illness is a fuzzy one at best at this point in time.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I was just thinking, after I re-read his/her post (and if he’s against any and all secular therapies/medication), that he might be the Tom Cruise of Biblical Counseling 😆
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
If you continue to see yourself as a worthless sinner, you’ll remain trapped in whatever hangups or problems you have, or stuck with the low self esteem.
Also, that Christ was willing to die for humanity ‘yet while we were sinners’ seems to indicate He thinks each one of us has a lot of worth. I do think love was at least one motive behind his sacrifice.
So it’s rather sad some Christians browbeat other people (even people who have already accepted Christ) into thinking they are worthless trash.
Janey wrote:
Just like Scientology, except with Christianese buzzwords and the Bible instead of Clamspeak and Dianetics.
dee wrote:
It made me sick to see far more tweets and articles giving air time to BSA than the sex abuse topic.
Daisy wrote:
Including jumping on Oprah’s furniture?
Bridget wrote:
Ego.
@ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
Hmm. I was not cured or helped by either.
Not that I got formal Biblical Counseling but at least tried the nouthetic counseling approach solo (it’s also a rather Word of Faith-ish approach) in that I used only Bible reading, prayer, and faith (during years I was not seeing secular psychiatrists), and none of that helped me.
(Some of the psychiatrists and psychologists I saw were Christian, but I did not discern any particular Christianized brand of treatment from them.)
I was not helped by medications, but some people are.
Sometimes secular ‘anything’ can be superior to ‘biblical whatever.’
Your Bible-only types (in regards to mental health problems) are not helpful.
Secular folks are interested in curing you and giving you practical ways to overcome an issue.
As far as secular types go, some of the Freudian variety can be bad, in that they will have a patient spend years rehashing childhood trauma or dwell upon their parents.
Having anyone focus that much on anything (parenting – or on personal sin, as is the case with biblical folks) is not going to most people unstuck.
Bible-only types want you to dwell on your personal sin constantly, or repeat Bible verses to yourself, or read the Bible a lot. I tried that stuff. None of it was helpful to me.
I found relief reading blogs and books by Non Christian therapists and psychiatrists, and a couple of books by Christian authors (psychiatrists).
I preferred the books by the Non- Christians, though, even though I did not agree with all their opinions on everything.
Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:
Zo — I personally am not suggesting that secular psychology is superior to biblical counseling in every area and every instance. I’m just promoting the view of Dr. Art Holmes, that All Truth is God’s Truth. Intelligent people need to look at medicine and science, and keep the good and discard the rest. Nouthetic counselors remind me of Christian Scientists, who have Practitioners who pray only rather than sending ill people to physicians.
Case in point, I read several of the main nouthetic blogs that came out just after Rick Warren’s son committed suicide. Not one mentioned the basic demographics of suicide: gender, ethnicity, time of year, and location. They ignore valuable data. It was all about Bible verses on despair, which are good and helpful to know, but each blog also included an quote from a psychologist or psychiatrist, which they spun to make the entire profession appear bogus.
For nouthetic counselors to make everything spiritual, except what is clearly medical in their own judgment, is — at the least, naive, and at the worst, controlling and manipulative, just a way of keeping problems “in-house, as Hannah said above.
(By the way, there is an interesting podcast and an article on suicide over on the Freakanomics website.)
dee wrote:
I wonder how much is due to SBC or to the media, especially the secular media?
I haven’t checked the news today, but when I last looked over SBC- related information about two days ago, almost all the leading stories were about SBC, BSA (Boy Scouts), and homosexuality.
I am right wing politically and have conservative morals myself, but I think conservative Christians (SBC too) is way too engrossed with certain topics (homosexuality being one of them). But then, the secular media only seems to pick up on those stories.
Patrice wrote:
I agree. I suspect that’s where part of the insensitivity or ignorance comes from.
Some Christians want to live life thinking if only they do their part, if they are good, and do steps X, Y, Z, that God will protect them and bless them in this life.
That was the outlook in the Old Testament. God told the people if they obeyed Him, they would be blessed, but Jesus said in the New Testament you can expect trials and tribulations, even if you dot all your i’s and cross all your t’s.
I am a member of a Southern Baptist church.
I trained at the undergraduate and the graduate levels to be a missionary or a pastor. I was ordained at a Baptist church in 1984. In January of 1985, I began to shown signs of a clinical depression. Since I had been trained that J. Adams was the one true light when it comes to counseling, I turned to him. I was reading his book, Shepherding God’s Flock. I could not sleep. I read it all night and into the morning.
I found nothing. I had never heard of Nouthetic Counseling or that J.Adams was the founder of it. I was being considered for a pastorate in central Florida. They were very positive until they found out I was depressed. The chairman of the deacons and the pulpit committee called me and one man said, “Pastor, do you have a case of the nerves?” And that was the end of that potential pastorate. Later, my wife and I moved back to our home church.
I decided to go back to my Seminary which was very biblical. My study involved attending a satellite school for my Master of Ministry and lo and behold it was at Faith Baptist Church in Lafayette, Indiana.
I didn’t realize until then that Lafayette was the Bastian of Nouthetic Counseling. They came on very strong against the model and I and vowed to write a definitive paper on the Christian and Mental Illness, which I did. Much of my academic work was used when we wrote our book a few years later. I was no longer considered for the ministry; I was considered damaged goods. This is why my wife and I wrote a book, Broken Minds, Hope for Healing When You Feel like You’re Losing It. Kregel Publications afforded us a platform to explain in a biblical, personal and technical sense what biological/ clinical mental illness really is. I honestly believe that God allowed me to suffer this way for such a time as this and I am excited to see the issues finally and rightly being addressed. God bless!
Steve Bloem
Executive Director
Heartfelt (Counseling Ministries)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It was around that time someone made a funny animated gif of Cruise as a Sith, shooting bolts at Oprah.
This might be the one I’m thinking of:
Tom Cruise Sith, with Oprah
I wish they had photoshopped a lightsaber into Oprah’s hands, warding off some of the lightning bolts. 🙂
@ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
Any psychiatrist or medical professional will tell you that the goal of introducing medications is to find the lowest possible dosage that will enable a person to function with the desired results. Psychiatrists do not start off prescribing massive doses of Prozac or any other anti-depressant. They start off with a very low dose and gradually increase it or decrease it as needed. I have many loved ones and friends who have used anti-depressants, whether for a short period of time or for a lifetime, and those drugs save lives. Please be respectful here when you feel the need to comment on such a sensitive topic. I know that there are many people who comment here who have been personally touched by events and people in the mental health community. If you sit back and ask politely you will hear heartbreaking stories of how fellow believers have treated people who suffer with conditions of the brain (whether it is autism, bipolar disorder, depression or any other condition).
At the end of the day, bloggers like Dee and Deb and Julie Anne and many others are simply asking the body of Christ to step up and love “the least of these”. They stand up for victims, historically marginalized groups and anybody else the local church looks down on and ask “why? what is the source of your contempt for these people? are they not just as valuable and lovable?” As a disabled single woman who is not really welcome in my local churches, I have benefited greatly from their unwavering support.
I didn’t see the original statement including autism spectrum disorders (ASD) as mental illness. ASDs are devlopmental disorders that have a genetic component and enviromental. There is not any mental illness component at all. ASDs are either obvious from birth,such as my grandson’s, or are sometimes triggered by some enviromental toxin early in life.
Also, to some extent, I believe that anything that can be controlled with medication such as depression/anxiety, Bi-polar or schizophrenia are not mental illnesses but neurologically based physical illnesses that may be exacerbated by emotional or mental factors. There is too much evidence that these disorders are physical/genetic.
I too went to my pastor for some sort of counseling a number of years ago. It did no good and finally he announced that I was “cured.” I wasn’t. It was a pretty serious bout of depression and I went to an osteopathic physician on a unrelated physical problem and he caught the fact I had problems and gave me prescription help. He monitored the medication and he personally talked to me and helped much more than my pastor. ( Come to find out the doctor had a received M.S. in psychology before he went to med school.)
I got lucky.
@ Wisdomchaser:
I forgot to add that calling autism a mental illness would be like call down’s syndrom a mental illness.
William Thornton wrote:
Patrice wrote:
How does this differ from waving the Bible (and/or your Biblical Righteousness) around as a Magick Shield against The Insanity Cooties?
Daisy wrote:
“Only a Scientologist deals in Absolutes…”
I am a member of a Southern Baptist church. I trained at the undergraduate and the graduate levels to be a missionary or a pastor. I was ordained at a Baptist church in 1984. In January of 1985, I began to shown signs of a clinical depression. Since I had been trained that J. Adams was the one true light when it comes to counseling, I turned to him. I was reading his book, Shepherding God’s Flock. I could not sleep. I read it all night and into the morning.
I found nothing. I had never heard of Nouthetic Counseling or that J.Adams was the founder of it. I was being considered for a pastorate in central Florida. They were very positive until they found out I was depressed. The chairman of the deacons and the pulpit committee called me and one man said, “Pastor, do you have a case of the nerves?” And that was the end of that potential pastorate. Later, my wife and I moved back to our home church.
I decided to go back to my Seminary which was very biblical. My study involved attending a satellite school for my Master of Ministry and lo and behold it was at Faith Baptist Church in Lafayette, Indiana.
I didn’t realize until then that Lafayette was the Bastian of Nouthetic Counseling. They came on very strong against the model and I and vowed to write a definitive paper on the Christian and Mental Illness, which I did. Much of my academic work was used when we wrote our book a few years later. I was no longer considered for the ministry; I was considered damaged goods. This is why my wife and I wrote a book, Broken Minds, Hope for Healing When You Feel like You’re Losing It. Kregel Publications afforded us a platform to explain in a biblical, personal and technical sense what biological/ clinical mental illness really is. I honestly believe that God allowed me to suffer this way for such a time as this and I am excited to see the issues finally and rightly being addressed. God bless!
Steve Bloem
Executive Director
Heartfelt (Counseling Ministries)
@ Steve Bloem: Welcome to TWW! Thank you for sharing your story. Would you be interested in writing a post for us, discussing your experience as a pastor who was considered “damaged goods?” I know it would help others who struggle.
It would seem to me that a pastor who suffered and dealt with depression would be an excellent pastor. Did you know that JB Phillips spent time in a mental institution?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
But, HUG, I thought these guys were sooooooo humble 😉
Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:
As a beneficiary of evil psych drugs, I can say that they gave me my life back. My mom is schizophrenic and, again, evil psych drugs have given her back to her family.
I think HUG is right; I smell Scientology.
Julie Anne wrote:
The SBC is run by misogynist males. They probably believe that allowing gays to lead boy scouts means that more boys will be sexually abused. The majority of sexual abuse by Protestants is against girls, not as big a deal.
I know I’m being generalistic but my personal abhorrence of the complementarian mindset orders my distrust of these leaders.
Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Or a Christianese equivalent.
Biblical Nouthetic Counseling shares Scientology’s hostility towards mainstream psychiatry/psychology.
@ Lola:
I am like your son. I hate that pounding and screaming and hysteronics. I generally give them the bird in my mind, though. Which I’m sure your son doesn’t do. LOL
Ha ha…I meant histrionics. A little slip.
I have suffered from depression and severe anxiety attacks all my life, since I was a child. I have been accused of having unrepentant sin, not having faith, my parents sin passing down on me, blah , blah , blah… Obviously this did not to help me and only added to my pain , anxiety and confusion. I finally went to a “secular” counselor and she was my gift from God! She helped me understand what was happening to me and gave me tools to cope. Now, my grandson 3 year old grandson may have autism and the thought of him being treated like I was by the “biblical counseling” gurus makes my blood boil!!! He has had problems since birth and was born this way. This grandma will fight for him and against anyone who would label him in such a way.
Patrice wrote:
You might like reading Greg Boyd’s God At War. In it he tracks the problem of evil in a way that diverges significantly from what we read in classical theodicy. In my opinion, Boyd is more accessible to the layperson than what many other academics have published.
Steve Bloem wrote:
A few individuals in the Bible displayed characteristics of depression, such as Jeremiah the prophet, I think – yet God used him.
God also used people who had speech impediments, anger management problems, adulterers, murderers, anxiety, etc.
Since God was willing to use imperfect people, why do churches not do so?
Daisy, I agree, just that those are 2 of the major diseases that stand out in my mind as benefiting from meds. Not using them can truly endanger the person, but you’re right, same with clinical depression and others. I think we need to be careful with meds, but there’s often a need for them.
Jaysgirl84 wrote:
Yep. that sounds familiar!
What makes this even more baffling is that I was only around 11 years old when the depression set in and I was diagnosed by a psychiatrist not too long after (and by a few more later).
Not only have I been a “goody goody” my whole life, but I don’t see how any of these biblical counseling guys can blame an eleven year old’s depression on personal sin. (Even as an adult, I have lived a “squeaky clean” lifestyle.)
I’m glad you were able to get help elsewhere.
@ Deb:
Oh gosh, I hope you’re right.
Many interesting comments here. I suffered from suicidal thoughts and depression for many years. After coming to Christ and reading of His amazing grace, love, passion, forgiveness, and many other attributes, I realized that I was complicating life by questioning His love for me. There are four voices we hear; 1) the voice of others, 2)the voice of the Evil One 3) my own voice, and 4) the voice of God. It’s really a decision for each of us to make as to who we choose to listen to. Either I have authority in the name of Jesus or I don’t. King David delighted himself in the Lord. When I compare my sufferings to those of Christ, I realize how blessed I am. As for all the Christian psychology/counseling, unless it leads me back to the only true Counselor I stay away.
I think there are multiple reasons why some Christians are against psychological or psychiatric treatments. One is the origin of psychiatry in the 19th Century by practitioners and writers such Freud who developed an atheistic world view incorporating theories concerning human nature that excluded God; these were seen as a threat to Christianity. A second one is the individualistic nature of western thinking with ‘collective ideologies of independence and personal agency, with corollaries in notions of self-reliance and self-determination.’ Such a framework makes psychiatry threatening because it is seen as having the potential to remove ‘self agency.’ A third reason is distrust of science as source of authority, so evidence based scientific developments in the treatment of mental illness are dismissed or regarded with suspicion.
These values is so ingrained that I think people do not question their own beliefs and recognize that experiences such as clinical depression are a form of suffering similar in nature to the suffering of bible characters such as Job, where the bible is very clear the cause is not sin.
I trained as a clinical psychologist over thirty years ago and was keen to read anything by written by Christians relating to this topic and came across J Adams. I remember being dissatisfied with nouthetic counselling because I could see immediately it did not address the issues and experiences of real people with mental illness. I began to wonder how those who followed this approach actually could work in with people with mental illness and not realize that they were being ineffective, but thought perhaps the people they were helping did not really have mental illness. I think probably now that they have an incomplete understanding of human nature, blinded by their own prejudices and lack of full understanding of Christianity.
I have come across some very good psychiatrists and psychologists with deep christian commitment who combine a prayerful approach with their patients and appropriate therapeutic approaches, mainly devised from the development of psychiatry in the last fifty years. One I particular admire is Dr Gaius Davies, who has written a brilliant book called ‘Genius, Grief and Grace’ in which he writes about the emotional and physical suffering of well known Christians, including Luther, Bunyan,Cowper, Shaftesbury, Havergal, Phillips, Lewis and Lloyd-Jones (UK – bias – he is Welsh). His thesis, as indicated by John Stott in the introduction of his book is that ‘grace does not change us as personalities. To be sure ‘we are a new creation’. Grace changes our outlook, ambitions, motives and behavior, but not our inherited temperament…secondly, grace does not rend us immune to either physical or mental illness..’
But common grace has given use the means to reduce the suffering of people with mental illness and we should be thanking God for these possibilities.
I’m wondering why a comment I made this morning is in moderation. I would like to know which words would have triggered that so I won’t use them again. Was it the word that starts with m that means men who don’t like women very much? Or has the very long word that means women’s roles are below men’s roles been banned? Or a word that starts with g that used to mean happy? Anyway, just curious.
@ Patti: Sorry Patti. But telling would allow people who want to beat the system to mis-spell the words. if you get moderated just accept it as the price of living in a fallen world. 🙂
Unless it's something off the charts we typically free up moderated comments ASAP. But at times our staff of 100s has to attend mandatory meetings and trainings and things get clogged up. 😉
@ Elle:
I accepted Christ before the age of 10, and was devout my whole life ,and read the Bible a lot, etc, but knowing Christ and reading about Him in the Bible did not stop my depression or anxiety.
If it works for others that is great, but it didn’t work for me, and there’s a lot of people for whom that approach doesn’t work.
Jaysgirl84 wrote:
More power to you!
First off I am not a proponent of Nouthetic counseling.
But if the medical community is going to ever win them over,
its going to have to do better than “clinical trials”
Every one of these baptists knows the story where
Jesus carried out a conversation with “entities ”
before sending then into a herd of pigs in order to heal
someone who had some kind of mental illness.
And they also know that pretty much any secular Dr.
will dismiss this as a fariy tale.
They are sure to wonder ,
what if the illness is caused by these “entities”?
What can you expect a good baptist to do?
Before we talk about Nouthetic counseling vs meds
We need to take a look, a close look at our anthropology.
Just what IS a human being. What IS a soul. (Psyche)
Its hard to think about.
But We cannot simply skip over these things.
(BTW Nancy Murphey has some good but very difficult things to
say in this area.)
Seems to me each side has started with a different set
of assumptions.
Some of my observations:
1. I don’t think its a coincidence that the demonic influences
described in the gospels that were cured by exorcism, are
also affected by medicine.
2. We ALL experience insanity every night, whether we remember
it or not, we are all extremely vulnerable.
3. The idea that some folk’s sin is greater enough than the
rest of us to put them in such a situation is pure gnostic silliness.
Well, I guess I’ve annoyed both sides now.
@ Elle:
“There are four voices we hear; 1) the voice of others, 2)the voice of the Evil One 3) my own voice, and 4) the voice of God. It’s really a decision for each of us to make as to who we choose to listen to. Either I have authority in the name of Jesus or I don’t. King David delighted himself in the Lord.
When I compare my sufferings to those of Christ, I realize how blessed I am.”
+++++++++++++++++++
this worked for you. it has left scores of people utterly heart-broken and beyond despondent in that not even the God of the universe could touch this… or would. your presumptuous sermonizing is extremely angering.
Steve Bloem wrote:
Thank you for the work you are doing, Steve. It sounds like you have a great heart for hurting people.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And if your Bible-thumping and prayer-spells don’t work, it’s because God is still Angry and the Insanity Cooties will eat you alive and then you go to Hell for evah and evah.
If you can’t stand the heat, get out of Hell’s Kitchen. There are many rooms in God’s mansion, after all. (I’m in the garden. God keeps gorgeous gardens!)
Muff Potter wrote:
Thanks for the rec. Will find it.
anonymous wrote:
I will challenge you on this point.Randomized double blind studies can be carried out for many things. When Jesus cured the lepers, he sent them to the priests, who were trained in the symptoms of leprosy, to be pronounced as a cure. Note: Jesus realized that such confirmation would be helpful in validating the miracle.
There have been studies on the effectiveness of prayer in treating those with cardiovascular events.Therefore, if you claim that an “entity” is behind many mental illnesses, then test it. Send in the exorcist and measure the exorcists efforts against a purely clinical approach in another person with the same symptoms.
The Roman Catholic church has some sort of board which carefully investigates the claims of possession. The person must go through all sorts of tests-medical, psychological, etc before they are considered. The documentation is extensive. They only have a few exorcisms each year and the preparation is extensive.
However, the opposite is true in some evangelical circles which willy nilly will claim possession , drive out the demons and pronounce a cure. This is ridiculous.
So, I do support clinical trials for this sort of claim. Unless I see some documentation, i will remain a skeptic as to the supposed exorcisms and cure.
Elle wrote:
So, do you view your good experience as normative? Do you think that you are the only one who has “realized” the four voices?
Now, suppose you were bipolar and it could be contained by medication, resulting in a normal life. If the only doctor who could give you that medicine (and only MDs can prescribe) was a nonChristian, would you accept the prescription?
You know, its interesting. I got an email from an individual who accused me of hatred yesterday. Do you think that person was leading me back to the Counselor?
Jaysgirl84 wrote:
He is blessed to have such an advocate in his family. Thank you for being there for him. You have taken your pain and turned it into a blessing for your grandson! How courageous and loving!
RM wrote:
Awesome comment. Thank you for pulling those thoughts together. Are you familiar with Bill Wilson, Professor Emeritus, at Duke? Although he is old and failing, he was a brilliant light in applying his faith in high quality care for those who psychiatric issues.
dee wrote:
Dee — Nope. You’re not a hater. You’re very tolerant of all kinds of comments that would *never* be allowed on hater sites. Your moderation is pretty generous to detractors.
A new blog post by Matt Redmond: “An Open Letter to the Victims of Abuse in SGM”
http://mattbredmond.com/2013/06/15/an-open-letter-to-the-victims-of-abuse-in-sgm/
Janey wrote:
Goodness! That post had me in tears. God bless Matt Redmond.
Dee,
Just for you… https://twitter.com/Ellenkay_Design/status/345907421396484097/photo/1
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
Don't forget all those conferences where we rub elbows with our blogging buddies. So many conferences, so little time…
@ Janey: Matt has such a pastor's heart! He shows up certain Christian leaders BIG TIME!
Fendrel wrote:
I want this shirt in the worst possible way!
Deb wrote:
[facetiousness]
And don’t forget, it’s not all fun and games in the world of celebrity blogging. You need to sell 1000s of books and negotiate those speaking fees.
[/facetiousness]
@ dee:
Dee,
Re: the email about hatred, & the like
How feasible is it to roll your eyes and mutter “ah, a quaint greeting from the nincompoop club”, and continue with a fruitful day in peace?
Elastigirl
I usually do except when it is sent by someone posing as a thoughtful commenter in the public setting. Assume that I have a reson for writing what seems to be an out of place comment. Sometimes I can’t help myself.
@ dee:
i hope my comment didn’t come across as reprimanding or shoulding on you. I don’t have to deal with the kind of flack you do, and I can’t begin to imagine what it would be like. And I admire you for taking this all on. Since no healthy person is made of teflon, i was just wondering how do-able it is to recognize moral/spiritual/intellectual ping pong balls for what they are. Not that airborn ping pong balls aren’t annoying.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xu53wu_captain-kangaroo-attack-of-the-ping-pong-balls-10-27-1976_shortfilms
“We ALL experience insanity every night, whether we remember it or not, we are all extremely vulnerable.”
Huh?
I think he’s talking about either dreams or nightmares.
I don’t know how that relates to anything he said though, unless he thinks dreams are caused by demons jumping into our heads and back out when we wake up.
Long time lurker, first time commenter 😉
One thing that struggling with depression has done for me is filled me with compassion for others in their weaknesses. My lowest point came when studying overseas in England and I spent days in my room, unable to sleep or move without crippling anxiety, horrible thought patterns that tormented me day and night and an inability to get anything productive accomplished whilst dealing with the guilt and shame of my failure to succeed. I returned home in shambles.
@Elle I understand the temptation to reject anything that doesn’t seem “Christian” or pointing to Christ. The thing is that by rejecting input from other sources besides the ones that we “vet” ourselves can actually at times hinder God speaking into our situations. Scripture is full of examples where the messengers of God were very unexpected and even unwelcome (women, children, donkeys, outspoken prophets, even pagans) but they were the messengers of God’s choice nonetheless. When you are able to humble yourself and listen, you may be surprised how “secular” people can point to God.
It was a combo of things that have brought healing in my life. Therapy, prayer (yes, God did do many miraculous things in my life), getting a schedule, staying away from certain foods, relationships and, yes, medication. Whoever said that we are a whole being: body, mind, soul, spirit, is absolutely correct. I have also had to face a lot of pain that came from facing my own childhood sexual abuse, as well as the pain of re-evaluating and unlearning many doctrinal teachings that lead me into a depressive mindset and hindered me from moving out. God is truth, but a lot of what is taught in the church is not (as we’re all learning).
Dee and Deb, thanks for what you do. For your diligence and unwavering commitment to victims. You are making a difference. I read your posts speaking to victims and I think about how things would have been different for me if I had heard words like that as a child and young teen, grappling with a sexuality awakened too early and soaked in shame. I may have even been less vulnerable to the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” phenom that was happening at the time (the fact that Josh Harris was also abused makes a lot of the pieces fall into place for me, and I have a lot more grace for him and his horrendous message that hurt so many). Keep up the great work 🙂
Sarah
Sarah
Your strength impresses me. I am so sorry for the terrible anxiety you suffered, alone and in a foreign country. You have such an insight into things, especially the Josh Harris “I Kissed Dating Goodbye recommendations. If you have a minute, I would love to hear more about your thoughts on that. Several other people who were abused of children have alluded to the same thing.
Hi Dee,
Thank you for your kind words (tears!). How about, I’ll write you an email about IKDG once I get my thoughts together 🙂
Cheers, Sarah
Sarah K wrote:
When Josh Harris first came out with being abused like that and I found he was the same Josh Harris as IKDG, I made the same connection. Sexual abuse can really mess up your head BAD, and IKDG could easily have been a reaction to the abuse coming from that messed-up head. Unfortunately, Josh Harris’s self-treatment attempt (IKDG) ended up messing up a LOT of other people.
JustSomeGuy wrote:
Don’t give him ideas!
No matter how far-fetched it sounds, there’s probably some True Beleiver out there twice as far-fetched and dead serious!
Especially if “it’s all caused by DEEMONS!” There are a LOT of Spiritual Warfare flake cases out there, every one of them convinced they’re GOD’s Right Hand Main Man.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I still haven’t found that one video I was looking for by the preacher who admits his views on depression changed after he got it, but I did find this odd video while looking for the first one…
You don’t have to watch the whole thing, just the first minute to hear this preacher screaming, “GAAAAWD will heal you! GAAAAAAAWWWWD will help you!”
Seriously. He yells “God” like “GAAAAWWWWD!!!!”
I’m posting this link for the funny audio, I am not vouching for this guy’s views or advising anyone to call this guy or visit his site:
Pastor Kerney Thomas – The CURE For Depression!!
At the 2:30 mark in a high pitched screech:
“I command for her to be healed NOOOOAAAOOOWWW!”
I don’t think dreams or nightmares qualify as mental illness. Maybe there could be a specific kind of recurring nightmare that could, but I expect this is pretty rare. There’s some people who can choose to wake up from their dreams, direct their content, etc. (I have a friend like this, at least that’s what he claims), so it’s not as if it’s always out of a person’s control. Personally my dreams (when I remember them) aren’t usually random crap but usually have more to do with what I was doing/thinking about the preceding day. Could be a few subjects all at once, but still usually stuff I was thinking about, just recombined differently.
I’d have to see a pretty good reason to call dreams “insanity” – which is a pretty vague term, actually, in a discussion about mental illness. Also, I’d tread carefully here because we have explicit evidence in both testaments that God can use dreams to communicate with people – and not just believers either (see Pharaoh and Joseph).
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well otherwise I think he does have a point about the other stuff. Bringing out evidence in the face of a true believer will do nothing since they will simply deny the evidence, no matter how strong because WHAT IT IS WRITTEN. This is seen in another area, YECs.
I think this is because usually in discussions like this, one side simply tries to demolish the other side, leaving them with nothing and telling them in effect “now go figure out a new belief for yourself to fill the hole I just punched”. A better approach would be not to attempt demolition but replacement. In other words trying to give them a better replacement theology instead of just trying to destroy the bad one and stopping there. Some people can think these things out on thier own, but others need help.
I think that’s what he’s getting at with the thing about doctors and theologians working together.
anonymous wrote:
As requested, I edited your comment. Hope I did it correctly. 🙂
Comment removed at request of author.
@ JustSomeGuy:
That was my point. the science/religion faction should be
healed. Polanyi and Newbigin are good reads on this..
@HUG
Are you making fun of me , Jesus or Luke for recording it?
Luke is presented as a historical document.
As such you either have to delete it or figure out how
to reconcile it with your science.
With the creation/evolution debate there are many attempts
at reconciling the scripture with science. Some better than
others. Its a useful enterprise where ever you happen to fall.
I am simply saying that if your behavioral science cannot
accommodate this purported historical event, you have some
work to do. One way or the other.
Or you can simply make fun of those who point it out.
A lot more fun.
As for me I am not a dualist, I lean to nonreductive physicalism
or dual aspect monism. Which makes it even more difficult.
I guess this is not the right venue for this discussion. Sorry.
I’ll be signing off now.
anonymous wrote:
Could you explain what reference in Luke you are alluding to and what it has to do with everyone experiencing insanity every night and being vulnerable?
@ Jeannette Altes:
Luke 8 records the incident where Jesus cast out
“legion” from a man who had some “issues”.
Jesus carries out a conversation with “legion” and
then permits him/them to enter a herd of pigs which
then run and drown in the sea.
The town asks Jesus to leave.
Luke being a educated man (doctor) contributed
this as part of an orderly account. (luke 1)
This is a hard passages. I can only speculate.
But Jesus conversed with some entity ( apparently inteligent)
who was responsible for this mans torment and corrected the situation.
My comment about dreams..
I probably should not have used the term insanity.
Its simply an observation that our mental and emotional
states can easily and regularly become disconnected from reality.
I have suspected that God made it that way to keep us humble.
The truth is we are not as in control our our mental
and emotional states as we might imagine. Depression is a
perfect example of this. And it affects millions.
But even someone cutting me off in traffic can trigger a reaction.
Understanding our vulnerability gives us a platform on
which to be kind to others.
Please understand I have more questions than answers.
@ anonymous:
I am having trouble with this phrase:
“Its simply an observation that our mental and emotional
states can easily and regularly become disconnected from reality.
I have suspected that God made it that way to keep us humble.”
I have a hard time believing that God made it (us) that way to keep us humble. I personally don’t think God needs to resort to any such means to humble us. We live in a fallen world which affords enough opportunity to brokenness, sickness, and evil to happen to us. At times fallen man can, and has, added to his own ailments and miseries, but it is dangerous to attribute such happenings to God. Did God humble Adam and Eve, or did they choose to believe another? God still loved them and cared for them after they disobeyed, along with allowing consequences. But not everything man experiences in life is a result of personal disobedience, sin or pride. Case in point — Able died because his brother was jealous.
Bridget wrote:
Really worked with Cee Jay, didn’t it? You can’t get more HUMBLE(TM) than Cee Jay; he says so himself!
Daisy wrote:
Tip: Never trust a preacher who pronounces “God” as “GAAAAAAAWWWWD”, “Jesus” with two “e”s, or “LORD” all-caps with two “O”s.
@ anonymous:
I have no quarrel with that passage or with the concept that demons can sometimes be involved in behavioral issues. But I think it is far more rare that certain flavors of church would have us believe.
I’m going to stick my neck out a little here and state that I have experienced demonic activity and there is a definite difference. I have looked into the eyes of one with demons and saw hatred – malevolance – looking back. I have looked in the eyes of a paranoid schizophrenic and saw only fear and confusion. There is a difference.
I get so angry at certain teachinsg (like ones I grew up in) that paint a picture of demons everywhere – they’re out to get you – must be always vigilant or they’ll take you over. That is, in fact, not what Paul or Jesus taught. But worse, what an exhausting way to live. I know. I’ve been there. This is a teaching that if you didn’t have mental problems before getting into it, it will cause them. I’m not being facitious – I am dealy serious. If you spend all your time looking over your shoulder to try to see the demons and looking in the mirror afraid you’ll see demons looking back, it won’t take long to drive you to a state of paranoia.
That is not the life Jesus bought for us. We are not condemned. We are hid in Him. His burden is easy and light – if it isn’t easy and light, it isn’t Him. The teaching, again that I grew up with, that says all insanity is demons is one of the most mentally/emotionally damaging doctrines I can think of for a victim of childhood abuse to sit under. I am honestly amazed, sometimes that I survived. At least I am at the place where I am glad I did. 🙂
@ Jeannette Altes:
The central character in this story is not legion.
It is JESUS. We must never forget that.
His compassion , love , power is beyond measure.
The ONLY reason I brought this up is that
it informs us as to what sort of things we
are, as humans. Since this apparently can happen,
we are the sort of creatures that it can happen to.
The original post was about the secular vs
nouthetic vs secular counseling. I simply
wanted to point out that each of these methods
assume things about what it means to be human.
And to call some of those assumptions into
question.
It was an anthropological exercise.
And this is not the correct venue. My mistake.
You are absolutely right. Jesus bought and paid
for us. I am always stunned by the gospels at
how compassionate He was. Its how I put myself
to sleep sometimes, remembering his gentleness and
kindness.
Our visions of devils are shaped in large by hollywood.
But our enemy is a creature like you and I.
And It is not omnipotent.
Jesus said.
“ALL power in heaven and earth is given to me”
And that is why you survived.
dee wrote:
This can also describe the spiritually abusive, manipulative leaders most of us have encountered!