“A choir is made up of many voices, including yours and mine. If one by one all go silent then all that will be left are the soloists.Don’t let a loud few determine the nature of the sound. It makes for poor harmony and diminishes the song.” Vera Nazarian, The Perpetual Calendar of Inspiration link
Pam Palmer and Amy Smith in Houston
An Amended Version of Peter Lumpkin's Sex Abuse Resolution Passes
This action gives me hope that the message is finally getting through.
Here is the link to Peter Lumpkins' original resolution.
Here is the link to the Associated Baptist Press which gives an initial impression of the amendment which passed.
The nonbinding resolution first emphasizes the need to
cooperate fully with law enforcement officials in exposing and bringing to justice all perpetrators, sexual or otherwise, who criminally harm children placed in our trust.”
The second part is the most interesting .
Messengers approved an amendment from the floor by Georgia pastor Peter Lumpkins, who proposed the original resolution behind the resolutions committee’s statement to encourage denominational leaders and employees to “utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliation with groups and/or individuals” that have questionable policies or practices to safeguard children from criminal abuse.
Yesterday, I gave this resolution little chance of passing. Today, I am surprised. Yes, it is not strong enough. I am sure the men of the SBC can get around it, since they are pretty darn sure that they are the official "discerning" types (not to be confused with discernment bloggers who are always wrong).
However, this passage of this proclamation should put to rest any assertion that there is widespread approval of the statements put out by T4G and The Gospel Coalition. It means that the troops in the trenches are getting restless with business as usual. Make no mistake. It was a slap in the face to some of the SBC folks who have been pushing their favorite SGM buddies.
Will the SBC seminaries keep inviting CJ Mahaney to lecture their students on how to do church? That remains to be seen. I bet he will be demoted to the "B" list but some of his BFFs will feel compelled to throw him a bone. The troops are watching and the leaders are well aware that they have lost a bit of their luster in their dogged determination to support their friend.
Don't forget, however, that many leaders in T4G and TGC are not Baptists. With Justin Taylor pushing the idea that the "least of these" are missionaries and preachers, you can be sure that Mahaney will still be making the rounds. Mahaney as one "the least of these?" It sure gives me pause….
Debate on this issue has commenced over at SBC Voices here.
TWW wants to take a moment to thank Peter Lumpkins for his tenacity in this manner. Well done!
Update: 6:45PM: Bill Kinnon seems to be singing our song as well. He wrote this post before we put up ours. (Great minds blog in their mother's basements together.)
Kudos to Amy Smith of Space City SNAP and Pam Palmer, the mother of a plaintiff in the SGM Lawsuit
Amy Smith, on the heels of a disturbing phone call from a pastor of FBC Houston, and Pam Palmer stood outside the SBC Convention hall to raise awareness of child sex abuse. Both of them showed tremendous grace under pressure. Their tenacity contributed to the success of the resolution at the SBC. Applause from TWW.
Here is a video from a local media station reviewing the issues before the SBC. Although it focuses on the Boy Scout situation, you will see some footage of Amy and Pam.
An Embarrassing Sermon on Evolution at the SBC
Considering all of the controversy surrounding child sex abuse, Calvinism vs non-Calvinism, the Boy Scouts, etc., one would think that the SBC leaders would encourage sermons on unity. There was an SBC Pastor's Conference prior to the Convention. One would think that said sermons would be representative demonstrate a high level of intellectual rigor and thoughtful observation. Think again.
Tom Rich, of FBC Jax Watchdogs, gave me permission to shamelessly steal from his post link "Gregg Matte: To Believe in Evolution, We Must Declare Slaughter of Jews in Auschwitz Equal to Slaughter of Cattle."
Gregg Matte is the senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Houston, and the elected president of theSouthern Baptist Convention Pastor's Conference this week at the SBC Annual Meeting in Houston.
In his June 2nd sermon entitled "Connecting the Dots Worldwide", Matte addresses the essential importance of a Christian believing in creationism and rejecting evolution.
But to try to make his point, Matte makes an idiotic, nonsensical argument that evolution will lead people to not being to ascertain between right and wrong – in fact he declares:
That’s what evolution is all about…if man is the highest thing, then man gets to decide whatever he wants to do and then there is no longer anything called ‘sin’. There is not anything wrong, there is not anything right…here’s what happens: if you believe in evolution, you must also believe that Auschwitz and Hitler’s Germany is equal to mad cow’s disease. Because there’s no difference in cattle and a person besides opposable thumbs and reason. They’re all living creatures, so the slaughtering of cattle and the slaughtering of Jewish folks in Auschwitz must be declared equal.
It is fairly obvious that Matte has never rigorously studied the other side of the argument (or he was just having a bad day). Theistic evolutionists (aka evolutionary creationists) believe in the creation of the heavens and earth ex nihilo, considering it to be a miracle of an all powerful God. Secondly, and most importantly, they also believe that God, as it says in Scripture, breathed the "breath of life" into man. It was this miraculous act that made man different than all other life forms.
It is ludicrous to say that people, such as Francis Collins, the Director of the NIH and the head of the remarkable Human Genome Project, as well as a Southern Baptist, believes the following.
if man is the highest thing, then man gets to decide whatever he wants to do and then there is no longer anything called ‘sin’. There is not anything wrong, there is not anything right
It's a good thing that this is a sermon because Matte would be laughed off the stage in a real debate. It is statements like this that cause our young people to flee the faith and Baptists to get out of Baptistland. It is not only mean spirited and asinine, it is a lie, easily disproven with a bit of reading. And that lie is directed at many of his fellow Baptists who do believe in God directed evolution.
We end by expressing our appreciation, once again, to Peter Lumpkins.
Lydia's Corner:1 Kings 8:1-66 Acts 7:51-8:13 Psalm 129:1-8 Proverbs 17:1
Thank you TWW ladies!! Many thanks…
Here’s the correct link to the KPRC story on our event…
http://www.click2houston.com/news/southern-baptists-attending-convention-in-downtown-houston/-/1735978/20527342/-/voqpgu/-/index.html
It’s really no business of mine, since I’m not a Baptist or even a Christian except in the cultural sense, but I followed the convention compulsively and saw much that was heartening to this neighbor of SEBTS.
But first — congratulations to Amy Smith and all the others who worked so hard to get that resolution. It was a needful rebuke to Mohler et.al., even if not explicit, and it was good that the Messengers saw that even if the ‘leadership’ didn’t.
Second, the mental health resolution passed after “overwhelmingly” rejecting amendments stipulating that the Bible says everything necessary to know about mental health. Good for the Messengers on that one, too.
Last, the BSA amendment was scaled back from pre-Convention predictions that Messengers would approve a resolution severing all relations (no pun intended) with the Boy Scouts.
There was more common sense on display than SBC-watchers have seen for a long while. Your headline “A Victory Amidst Turmoil” fits perfectly.
Best,
Bob Felton
This is ALL very good news, including what Bob added!!
Gregg Matte is the “pastor” from the church that harassed Amy Smith about protesting at the SBC convention, right?
I looked at their website and they have some really wonderful ministries, but I have to ask, with the lack of intellectual honesty at the top why would you want to have this guy as your pastor? It must be terrible to spend 18 years at a church, work teaching kids and then realize the leadership are stooges.
“This is a virtually worthless ‘feel good’ public relations move that basically protects no one. Brave action, not vague resolutions, stops crimes against kids.”
http://www.snapnetwork.org/tx_baptists_adopt_abuse_resolution_snap_responds
Amy wrote:
Like the sex abuse resolution was just a bit of trivia compared to the Big Issue — YOUNG EARTH CREATIONISM! YOUNG EARTH CREATIONISM! YOUNG EARTH CREATIONISM!
Somehow it’s appropriate I’m listening to a string orchestra cover of “Game of Thrones” while reading this about the SBC convention.
Like Other Church Organizations In the Recent Past , will SBC Churches One Day Close Some Of Their Church Doors?
What?
Is the Church , because of the pedophilia issue, today being reduced to as Fr. Congar anticipates, to little groups of people meeting in houses?
What?
Unfortunately, it has ben internationally recognized that in the certain Church denominations officials have ben involved in the most documented horrific sexual crimes, and what apears to be new accusations coming forth daily.
Will a similar thing be said one day soon, of the Southern Baptist Convention’s association of affiliated churches?
Truly there is much which the SBC group of churches will have to answer for because souls are being sexually abused, and not reported to the proper authorities?
Is this a predetermined questionable social agenda that is being upheld; is this continuing to make SBC denominational leaders look good among their church members?
Will not any fruitful ‘action’ be taken?
Is it just words?
(sadface)
Sopy
—
Loren Haas wrote:
With 18 years emotionally invested in that church and that leadership, do you really think they will take the blue pill and admit THEY were wrong?
My Dear Wormwood, they will take the red pill and keep “this guy as their pastor”.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Thank you, HUG! I was hoping someone would bring up the Matrix analogy. People are afraid that if they learn the truth they’ll have to walk away from the church, but in reality, it just means walking away from blue pill churches, those churches that cannot deal with the reality that people are broken and need compassion, support, and forgiveness. There are lots of excellent churches/clergy out there with orthodox teaching and a commitment to being the loving and caring Body of Christ.
That evolution sermon….my my.
It misses a very vital point. Yes, obviously those of us who believe in Christ AND evolution believe that there is a difference between animals and man. Duh. But even atheists who believe in evolution have the capacity for extreme compassion and an extreme sense of justice and humanitarianism. His argument that belief in evolution leads to a humanity without compassion for itself leads me to believe that he doesn’t know very many atheists.
It reminds me of what the new pope said the other day…it made the rounds online…something about how God created all people with an innate sense of wanting love and justice. You don’t have to be a believing Christian to feel and respond to that hard-wiring for compassion. It comes from God, and can be present even in those who don’t recognize it comes from God.
But that doesn’t exactly fit with the “us vs. them” mentality that he obviously wants to promote, so…
As someone was saying on the last thread, I’ll believe the SBC when they take action. They can pass all the resolutions they want and say how horrible child abuse is, but in the future will they actually report pedos in their midsts to the authorities?
Peter Lumpkins, in that photo, reminds me of singer Kid Rock.
HUG, your soul is in danger, according to Pat Robertson, if you are still playing D&D
Pat Robertson Says Dungeons And Dragons Is ‘Demonic,’ Linked To Teen Suicide
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Never, ever underestimate the value of a light slap across the face. A year ago, this would never have passed. Change comes slowly. Frankly, I did not think this would happen.
I’m in your choir, singing from the same songbook, Dee. And honest, I wrote this before reading this latest from you. (Though my constant reading here with four or five TWW tabs opened at a time, does help to inform my writing.) 🙂
Bill
Loved you post. I am going to update my post to link to it.
Thanks, Dee.
And Amy, even if the SBC resolution is not remotely what’s needed, you’ve dramatically increased awareness amongst those of us in “the cheap seats”, and many more will join with you in this battle. I pray the Lord would further encourage and sustain you for the work He has given you to do.
Dee. Thanks. I’m very pleased with the outcome. Also I looked for the demonstration to introduce myself to both Amy and Pam but failed to connect. I regret it much. We have much in common for our desired goals. We but differ somewhat on some particulars as I’ve noted her. Lord bless and thanks for all you guys do for child protection here…
Ditto….
Dee, Deb.
“I pray the Lord would further encourage and sustain you for the work He has given you to do.”
Yahoooooo!
I think I can, I think I can, puff, puff….
(grin)
Sopy
____
— from Bill Kinnonnice note.
Janey wrote:
Actually, that was more of a “The Matrix meets Screwtape Letters” mash-up.
But the principle still holds; getting a mark emotionally invested so he doesn’t dare back out (and admit he was wrong for so long) is an old, old con-man’s trick.
Daisy wrote:
Pat ain’t sayin’ anything that wasn’t said (and more than said) some 30 years ago. There are a LOT of horror stories of D&Ders being harassed or worse from that period; perhaps the most horrifying was one my writing partner told me:
A pastor’s kid whose dad forcibly committed him to a Teen Challenge halfway house for playing D&D; upon his release, the father bragged how he would place a Bible and a D&D manual side by side on the floor and force the kid to choose. Last my writing partner heard, the kid was a total basket case, whipsawing between Fred Phelps and Marilyn Manson.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Hmmm…that is so sad that happened to that kid. Teen Challenge is something that maybe would make a few blips on the ‘ole TWW radar. I have a cousin who was forced to go there……. O.o
@ Bill Kinnon:
@ peter lumpkins:
@ Amy:
Amy, Bill & Peter, it’s been great reading your blogs. Keep up the work. The sheep are breaking through the fence and are stampeding!
Loren Haas wrote:
It was only ~12 years for me, but yes, it is pretty terrible.
This is, at least, a beginning and a step in the right direction. As I’ve written on this blog before, I have had a horrendous experience with sexual abuse in a SB church. My brother and several young cousins were molested for years by a volunteer youth director and the senior pastor refused to even speak to him about it, much less remove him from his job!
I am so thankful that eyes are being opened to the fact that pedophilia exists in every denomination, whether the perps are married or single. I saw a poster recently that said, “Keep calm and carry on or Raise H— and change the world!” Well, I guess we know what category Dee and Deb, and Amy and Pam, and Peter and all the others are in!
sad observer wrote:
Some theologies insist that you inherit only a sin nature and that your default natural state can only be hopelessly depraved. As a consequence, you are fit only for hell.
@ peter lumpkins: Thank you so much. You did something good today for the least of these. As I have said before, Peter, you are no wuss.
Thanks, Janey. I’m trying. Some folk would add, very. 🙂
“They’re all living creatures, so the slaughtering of cattle and the slaughtering of Jewish folks in Auschwitz must be declared equal.”
Ummm…so Matte thinks YECs don’t believe humans are living creatures…?
“living” = alive
“creature” = derived from the word “create” (which is kind of the point here…?)
dee wrote:
I propose that Dee/Deb show their admiration for Peter Lumpkins, who achieved the impossible by finally getting the Southern Baptist Convention to encourage the reporting of child sexual abuse (alleged or otherwise) to civil authorities and to use “discernment in affiliation with groups and/or individuals that have questionable policies or practices,” by abstaining from demon hootch in his honor for the next 24 hours. Ha.
@ Amy:
@ peter lumpkins:
Thank you both for all that you did at the SBC convention.
Hopefully this will effect long term change in the SBC. If it does, it will also entail an admission of institutional wrongdoing and a calling to account of men like Albert Mohler and the rest: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_individuals.html
http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/06/southern-baptist-leadership-is-lacking.html
Janey wrote:
I’ll drink to that!
AP and other news services picking up on the story. A few of them are saying that they believe this was due to the relationship that some of the SBC leaders with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Fascinating…
Fox News is reporting:
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/12/southern-baptists-pass-resolution-urging-all-abuse-allegations-to-be-reported/#ixzz2W3pHLrgf
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/12/southern-baptists-pass-resolution-urging-all-abuse-allegations-to-be-reported/
Christianity Today’s Gleanings blog reported —
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2013/06/interesting-southern-baptist-convention-resolutions.html
Janey wrote:
Done! It’s the least I can do.
@ peter lumpkins:
Thanks for your determination, Peter! I was watching the proceedings live and was proud of your heroic efforts.
Becky Ianni, our Virginia Snap leader, whom I deeply respect, admire, and appreciate, sent her response to me about the resolution:
I am glad to see that the SBC is making better child protection policies but more important than creating new policies is enforcing them. Children will only be safe when perpetrators are exposed and brought to justice. I hope that the SBC will report every suspected case of child abuse, past and present, to authorities but it is still important for every citizen to report any suspected, witnessed or experienced sexual abuse to the proper authorities, As a mother of four and victim of childhood sexual abuse I never want another child to suffer what I did as a child and continue to deal with as an adult.
Praise the Lord for these steps, and that the resolution is being picked up by some outlets! May God continue to comfort and strengthen all those who have been abused. Thank you, Thank you, to those of you who have been working so hard to get it this far.
dee wrote:
I agree!
“‘We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity,’ wrote Al Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; Ligon Duncan, pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Jackson, Miss.; and Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. Together for the Gospel is a biennial Christian conference the three founded with Mahaney.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/c-j-mahaney-scandal-evangelical-leaders-defend-pastor-accused-of-abuse-cover-up_n_3334500.html
Who at the SBC or HFBC called the Houston police about me and SNAP days before our plans to hold an awareness event at the convention? Here’s the voicemail I received last Friday:
http://archive.org/details/HoustonPoliceVoicemail
This is a YouTube video of Peter Lumpkins, the amendment and the vote.
http://tinyurl.com/kfdqn2t
Bene D wrote:
Bravo Peter!! I just watched your passionate plea to protect kids! And bravo to that messenger who stated, “This is just like Penn State where they swept it under the rug.”
Bravo to you too Amy.
Unofficial attendance at the 2013 SBC Annual meeting was 5062. in 2012 attendance was 7,868. 2011, unofficially – 4,804.
Economics aside, I wonder if there are a lot of subliminal and covert messages being sent from the ‘fringe’.?
Re: The YouTube video of Peter Lumpkins, the amendment and the vote.
http://tinyurl.com/kfdqn2t
What’s with Pastor Scott Gordon of Claycomo Baptist Church in Kansas City, MO, opposing Peter Lumpkin’s amendment? He doesn’t want to “utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and/or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse”?
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Loren Haas wrote:
Well, it’s not just lack of intellectual honesty – it’s lack of intellectual anything.
If you want to engage people who support evolution – and not all of them are atheists – and if you want to engage atheists – and they, too, are in need of the gospel, if you take your own premises seriously – then name calling without having the slightest idea of what’s going on in philosophy and ethics is not just intellectually lazy, it’s also a dereliction of duty if you seriously want to be seen as a missionary to “the world”.
Frankly, the lack of intellectual curiosity, the anti-intellectualism pushed by some evangelical (and Republican) leaders in order to further their own agendas, is exasperating and has caused me to give up on them.
The mental health resolution at the Southern Baptist Convention yesterday also covered topics of interest to TWW readers. It gave a good slap to the nouthetic counseling crowd at the 9 Marks and Acts 29 churches, and other anti-psychology/psychiatry churches:
http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/8587-sbc-pastor-preaches-mental-health#.UbmrTutQ1zY
@ Janey:
I was following that yesterday as I watched the live feed, and I will do some digging…
Salem radio station KKLA-Los Angeles’s Host Frank Sontag interviews Boz Tchividjian. Look at 2013-06-12 4pm The Intersection of Faith & Reason Show with Frank Sontag: Hour 1 (28-min interview)
• Boz tells why he spoke up even though other Christian leaders were silent.
• He reams Together for the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition and C. J. Mahaney.
• He chastises Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, Doug Wilson — and talks about the good-ol-boys network that is siding with Mahaney, who allegedly covered up the crimes for decades.
• He speaks with real passion and outrage.
• He gives advice on the questions every Christian should ask their own church leaders about their child sexual abuse policies. Ask for the policy in writing.
http://www.kkla.com/Episodes.aspx?PID=2709
By the way, Christianity Today’s headline news site and World Magazine have been totally silent about the May 14 allegations and the ongoing criminal investigations in this situation. About 1/3 of the defendants have already been convicted of child sex crimes either through court or via the juvenile system, according to attorney Bill O’Neil. http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/05/sovereign-grace-ministries-class-action-civil-lawsuit-involving-child-sex-abuse-88894.html
I made this video today because I was happy that the SBC passed the amendment put forth by Peter Lumpkins. I wish to thank him, Dee and Deb and the hundreds of others who have seen fit to enter the fray and fight for those without a voice. I know the battle can be wearisome at times, but the Lord hears our cry. God bless all of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NYvJMoQg3cE
I am glad that the Peter Lumpkins' Resolution passed. (Thanks, Peter!) I am very glad the protection of kids from sex abuse in churches was being talked about and voted on at the Annual Convention of the 2nd largest Christian denomination. Our church congregations – the leaders and members – need to hash out the details, though, on the issues related to sex abuse in our churches. One non-binding resolution, while a promising start, is NOT the END of the problems that we face. The "devil is in the details"! I look forward to the day, when it will be standard practice in all churches to adopt the SNAP recommendations on how to handle sex abuse in your church: http://www.snapnetwork.org/what_to_do_when_your_priest_is_accused_of_abuse (just substitute "pastor" or "church member" for "priest" — this list is great!) SNAP has 25 years of experience dealing with this issue. SBC Pastors, you would give more "meat" to your Resolution, if you sought out their wise counsel on this topic!! I look forward to the day when congregations everywhere would host G.R.A.C.E. conferences to educate their church families and leaders on how to handle sex abuse. Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V2QMfy27AE I see the passing of this Resolution as a watershed moment. The grassroots movement of survivors of sex abuse, largely ignored by church leaders is not going away! In fact it is growing. Awareness of sex abuse cover-up in churches is on the rise and I firmly believe, that the heart of God is to protect kids and that He is the One who is bringing this hidden evil to the forefront of the Evangelical church. We would all do well to listen to Him! Let's bring sex abuse out of the church closet — deal with it, have a real, open, written plan and stop the cycle of hidden abuse. Let's help the multitude of survivors of sex abuse in our churches heal. I encourage everyone reading here to go back to your church family and make sure an appropriate written policy implemented.
@ TW:
By the way, TW, you and ScotT did a great job on Justin Taylor’s blog yesterday showing how determined some New Reformed bloggers at the Gospel Coalition, and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary students (that’s what Justin Taylor is, according to his Crossway profile), are at giving more power to leaders and stripping it away from those who are most likely to be oppressed.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2013/06/10/the-least-of-these-an-example-of-the-right-doctrine-from-the-wrong-text/?comments#comments
Bob Felton wrote:
I too was heartened by what I saw at the SBC convention and the willingness of the messengers to challenge the SBC powers behind the throne. What the SBC needs to do now is put some teeth into its position on child abuse as expressed in the resolution. It is difficult for the SBC to do a lot given that its member churches are all independent and voluntarily choose to associate with the SBC, but the SBC is not powerless. At a minimum, they could establish a registry of known pedophiles in their midst and dissociate from those churches that violate the resolution – after all, if they will boot out a church for having a woman as pastor they could at least do the same to those that try to cover up child abuse.
I was also heartened by the SBC’s resolution recognizing mental illness as a medical condition that needs to involve medical treatment – something society as a whole doesn’t fully recognize. Very cool to see the SBC take a stand on this important problem AND beat down the advocates of nouthetic counseling who would submit mental illness to their ‘biblical’ voodoo.
I really hope that those that opposed the amendment by Peter Lumpkins are ashamed of themselves.
Peter did a great job here. The resolution needed to be amended. I did not see this as a “slap in the face” to anybody. In fact, if it had been presented and perceived as such, it would not have passed.
Instead, it was well written (avoiding personalities etc.) and Peter did a good job speaking to the motion.
In short, it was a good idea and it was well presented. That is why it passed.
Also, Bob Cleveland should be commended for his amendment that advised the reporting of child abuse allegations, rather than child abuse. Bob effectively argued that reporting only child abuse, and not the allegations of such, put the pastors in a position of evaluation and determinaion before reporting. That is a position that they do not need to be in.
The Convention also beat back efforts to affirm Nouthetic Counseling in the resolution on mental health and illness.
@ Janey:
Was anyone there at the convention? I’d like to know just how many others raised their hand in opposition to the amendments. That just plain creepy. I would think at the very least if they didn’t care about kids they would at least be happy to have all of the discernment stress removed. I mean, to be able to tell someone, hey, nothing personal, it’s our organization’s policy to report and to deny affiliation until proven innocent. If you ask me, money, notoriety or guilt themselves is involved. If I attended an SBC church I’d be asking my pastor how he voted.
It also was ‘telling’ to me how the pastor who motioned to move on to the next segment had to throw in ‘because we have talked about this long enough.’ What?! How rude! And then a chuckle from the platform. It made me sick, I was totally unnecessary.
@ TW: You made me cry. TW, you are awesome. I see your comments throughout the internet. You have effectively challenged Justin Taylor on the issue of “the least of these.” You have given up much to go down this road. May God bless you in your journey.
@ Pam Palmer: Did you know that AP, Washington Post and others are linking this resolution to the SBC leaders who have been supporting SGM? They get it.
This resolution is only the beginning. It was definitely a slap across the faces of those who think that caring for the “least of these” means protecting the pastors. Movements like this start small. Yet it is the consistent witness and bravery of people like your daughter and you that keep the message alive.
@ TW: If you ever want to write a post (or posts) just let us know. You are becoming a force to be reckoned with.
@ Janey: Ditto x100
Janey wrote:
He supports the Reformed Big Dogs who are supporting Mahaney. This whole things also has an undercurrent of the Calvinism vs nonCalvinism fight which was, in my opinion, not resolved, no matter how many “respected” folks endorsed the resolution. The fights will continue and will escalate.
Patti wrote:
Think about it. They did not expect this thing to carry. Very few people have ever bucked folks like Al Mohler. This whole thing was embarrassing to them. Trust me, there was an undercurrent in this whole thing. This resolution meant far more than the resolution itself. I believe there has been significant pushback and this is worrisome to the powers that be.
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I am going to disagree with you on both of these statements. Such a child abuse resolution would not have passed a year ago. This thing gained steam because of the footsie game being played by some of the leaders. Even the AP recognizes it.
Deb will be writing a post on the latter.
Patti wrote:
Like Cee Jay chuckling about how he made his wife service him while she was puking her guts from morning sickness? Chuckle, chuckle, jes’ folks…
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
He was extremely rude and no they had no talked about this long enough. I’m sure the old guard of the SBC appreciated his comment.
I’m quoted in today’s Houston Chronicle:
Amy Smith did not expect the resolution to pass and called it a great start at raising awareness, but said it is not enough. Smith, a lifelong Southern Baptist, is the Houston director for the support network Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
She called on the executive committee to not just urge churches to adopt good policies, but set a national standard for all member churches and ensure it is met.
“Selective outrage,” Smith called the convention’s mixed history of addressing child abuse at the top levels of leadership.
Jack Graham, a Dallas pastor and former convention president, spoke on a panel about leadership, yet Smith said he did not report a former member of his staff to police when he fired him in 1989 for inappropriate activity with a teen. That man since has been convicted of multiple felonies in Mississippi for sexually abusing children.
Smith also noted that Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, was an outspoken critic of the unreported abuse involving a former Penn State University assistant football coach.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Southern-Baptists-denounce-Scouts-for-accepting-4597531.php
AMAZING! Do you realize what has happened in less than 4 weeks? The new allegations of child sexual abuse and cover ups at Sovereign Grace Ministries, Covenant Life Church, were released publicly less than 30 days ago.
The outcry has been so great that yesterday, the Southern Baptist Convention, which has stubbornly refused to take serious steps for many years, has made a resolution — a first step of many to come — to protect children.
Keep up the good work!
This is awesome news. Still, it deeply saddens me that we celebrate the fact that “Christian leaders” have finally caught on that it might be a good idea to make a policy out of reporting the worst crimes of humanity imaginable to police. Why does anyone need to be told told do this? Shouldn’t that be innate/common sense? … non-Christian organizations have been doing it for years…
@ Moxie:
Moxie:
The SBC leaders are used to doing what they want to and when they want to. They stalled on this issue until Amy and others embarrassed them enough to at least do do something.
@ Amy: You keep hammering them, Amy. You represent a just cause.
I guess the SBC will not be pursuing a better understanding with the Catholic Church with their long history of child abuse.
Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:
Except for pointing to them and gloating “I THANK THEE, LOORD, THAT I AM NOTHING LIKE THAT ROMISH PAPIST OVER THERE…”
You KNOW the SGMmers were doing that and chuckling (Humbly, of course) as the Catholic child sexual abuse scandals boiled over.
@ Amy:
Amy, I thank you on behalf of people like myself, too fragile to do the work that you have sturdily taken on. You rock!
And also to Boz, Pam P, Julie Anne, Jeff C, Deb/Dee, Peter, and quite a few I can’t think of right now. When I start counting, I am amazed at how un-lonely we are. Thank you so much!
Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:
And perhaps vice versa.
Moxie wrote:
Moxie — You would think so.
Catholic church pays over 3 billion dollars for sex with little boys
@ Patti:
“It also was ‘telling’ to me how the pastor who motioned to move on to the next segment had to throw in ‘because we have talked about this long enough.’ What?! How rude! And then a chuckle from the platform.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Wylie Drake, it was… i knew i had heard his name before (in connection with fantastical nincompoopery).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUHS5u8v1Ck
@ elastigirl:
Who was Wiley Drake speaking for when he motioned to move on??
@ mot:
himself?? haven’t a clue. i couldn’t further from SBC things.
Amy wrote:
Your statement is simply untrue. You need to stop putting an ugly face on a noble cause.
@ Amy Smith:
I think someone needs to ask the officer if he is authorized to intimidate or harass citizens who are exercising their first amendment rights in a public place, and there is no evidence that said citizens have demonstrated any violent tendencies, ever.
Amy Smith wrote:
This and other spiritual abuse blogs have related accounts of Pastor/Dictators using the local PD as their Armorbearers/Enforcers. One used a local police detective who was a member of his church to dig up dirt on a critic (on PD time) and another at Calvary Chapel Visalia used his position as police chaplain to pack a courtroom with armed uniformed cops in an intimidation move (at least until Visalia PD recognized the conflict of interest).
“Taking Serious Steps : The Protection Of Children: Keep Up The Good Work?”
hmmm….
The next generation of certain pastors are apparently being trained by individuals who have supported those who have been strongly as a group, accused of failing to report child sexual abuse within their respective houses of worship; and encouraging others to do likewise.
(sadface)
Apparently, it is these same supporters of pastoral child sexual abuse non-reporters , who with the support legal services are attempting to deflect and silence the voices, the messengers, the victims, who have taken their complaints to the Internet and to the greater international Christian community. These voices will not be silenced.
(sadface)
With all due respect, the last group that attempted to silence the victims and their families were forced to close many of their housed of worship. It sadly, is a matter of public record.
(sadface)
An example of such certain church closings due to this child sexual abuse issue can be found below:
http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_030_ArchdioceseBostonParishes.htm
Q: Is this (example) a harbinger of things to come for houses of worship associated with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) , who refuse to address this issue with stern action?
hmmm….
Will SBC houses of worship amend their individual house of worship bylaws to read (example):
Proposed Amended (Your 501c Religious non-profit name goes here) Bylaws reads:
.
“(Your 501c Religious non-profit name goes here) pledges to cooperate fully with law enforcement officials in exposing and bringing to justice all perpetrators, sexual or otherwise, who criminally harm children placed in our trust. (Your 501c Religious non-profit name goes here) leadership pledges to encourage “(Your 501c Religious non-profit name goes here) pastors and their employees to utilize the highest sense of discernment in reference to questionable policies or practices, safeguarding the children in their care from criminal abuse.” (Your 501c Religious non-profit name goes here)
Question Mark….
Or will they continue, business as usual? The children and the families place in their care, faced with negligence and a higher risk of of sexual abuse within these respective church’s hallowed walls?
What?
*
To Amy Smith:
Amy , Thank-You! (Hello, could you and your associates, please start a 501c religious non-profit which will act as “seal of approval” clearing house for church establishments that have pledged the above (or similar example) written within their 501c religious organizational bylaws? (Please note: This effort would not be unlike the accounting practice “Seal Of Approval” services that churches have utilized as an monetary integrity safeguard in the recent past.)
A Family could then research this “Seal Of Approval” list for an approved ‘safe’ house of worship available to them, in their local area.
ATB
Sopy
—
Bob Cleveland wrote:
That is the SNAP statement, not my personal statement. But I agree that words alone, however noble and just, do not protect kids. Actions, calling the police immediately to report abuse from years ago or recently, and holding people accountable does. http://www.snapnetwork.org/tx_baptists_adopt_abuse_resolution_snap_responds
Bob Cleveland wrote:
You need to stop making excuses for lack of action to protect kids.
@ TW:
What a heart wrenching & yet glorious video. Well done!
@ Bob Cleveland: I think that people, who do not have extensive experience with the inner workings of the SBC, might not have any idea how the passage of this resolution was both unusual and unexpected. I am pleased.
Like any battle, there is more to be done. For now, however, it is time to be thankful.
mot wrote:
he was obviously not pleased with this amendment. i suspect that others were not as well.
@ dee:
“he was obviously not pleased with this amendment. i suspect that others were not as “well.
+++++++++++++++
the nincompoop club
@ dee:
Why would he and others in the SBC be against this amendment?
I’m glad something is happening. I’m still utterly shocked that any of this is necessary as, to me, child abuse is so heinous I would have expected anyone of any heart, intelligence or moral awareness to immediately take steps to prevent it. Especially inside the church. Silly me.
I thought about all of you here today as I started making the ‘safeguarding concerns flowchart’ for the little voluntary sector org I work for, to ensure that everyone knows how to report worries, suspicions or knowledge of any kind of abuse against children & vulnerable adults. I’m proud & privileged to be one of the Designated Safeguarding Officers.
To those of us in the trenches, hearing from survivors and advocating on their behalf to protect others, it is difficult not to be skeptical and words alone often ring hollow when we “hear” the right thing from pastors who don’t *do* what they *say* they will. In Feb 2011, I got this email from Mike Buster, executive pastor at Prestonwood Baptist church after my email to Jack Graham urging them to call the police and report the known child sex abuse by Langworthy who was in Mississippi teaching kids at a high school and kids of all ages at his church. Mike said he had discussed my email with Jack, thanked me for it and “please know that we will cooperate fullly with law enforcement agencies concerning this matter.” Still waiting…
http://www.scribd.com/doc/141668494/Email-from-Mike-Buster
@ Amy:
Amy, it is very sad that many of the “leaders” in the SBC prefer to play a game called Defer when it comes to the issues they are not man enough to deal with. I mention men because the SBC leaders have used the Bible to prohibit women from being in any leadership positions.
dee wrote:
Likely time for adorably Salballat-like blog queens to REAX JUST a bit as well. From Justin Taylor’s blog yesterday, just the title and first two words will do. “How to Relax and Enjoy Your Heroes in the Faith…….John Piper…”
In fact, with just a little selective editing or selective misunderstanding, about a half-dozen TGC headlines right now can range from ironic to hilarious.
Meant SaNballat-like (See TGC article Haters Gotta Hate)
mot wrote:
Remember, Al Mohler and the other seminary presidents are BFFS with CJ Mahaney and SGM. This amendment was, in some part, according to AP, CT and others, pushback on that friendship.
Dave A A wrote:
LOL!
@ dee:
Sincere question–why do you believe this amendment passed, because many folks were predicting it would not even be allowed to be voted on?
The SBC recap does not mention the child abuse resolution! http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=40517
Ok, peeps…think it’s time to dig deeper into this call I got from the HPD “criminal intelligence division.” I’ve had some requests to elaborate on it. The officer also called David Clohessy with SNAP. David talked to him and the officer asked what we were planning to do at the SBC. We needed no permit for what we planned to do. He asked if David was going to be there. I did not call the officer back. I had no reason to. I had done nothing wrong and wasn’t planning anything illegal. David said that in 25 years of SNAP’s existence and holding many events like we did across the country and world, he could only recall receiving a call like this from police 3 times. 3 times in 25 years.
After some brief research, I’m wondering if this is the HPD criminal intelligence division, basically a partnership with Homeland Security http://www.nfcausa.org/files/DDF/Privacy%20Policy%20HRISC%20September%2009%20SSNP%20.pdf
“3. The mission of the Houston Regional Intelligence Service Center (Center) is to provide continuous security to our region by gathering, developing and sharing intelligence into the capabilities, intentions, and actions of terrorist groups and individuals which pose a threat to our populace and region.”
@ Amy:
@ An Attorney:
That is unbelievable! Surely that was the major story of the convention.
@ An Attorney: I think more needs to be looked into about this. Who authorized that officer to make that call? When do the police, from a Criminal Intelligence department, call preemptively, before any crime has been committed? What was said to the officer? Who made the call? Amy is a sweet, Christian woman, with a Texas-sized tenacity and boldness, but who is obviously a law-abiding citizen. She was exerting her Constitutional right to freedom of assembly and speech for the purpose of raising awareness about child sex abuse. What could be criminal in THAT?
The officer called from this number 713-658-1737. I called that number tonight and it just rang and rang, no voicemail. The number for the HPD Criminal Intelligence is 713 308-8700.
@ Amy: Fascinating. You could call the HPD tomorrow and ask if that number is one of theirs. I would be happy to call it tomorrow if you would like.
@ Amy: OK Major weird….I plugged the number into a google search. Look at what came up.
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/7136581737
“somebody called me from this number introducing himself as officer williams from the houston police department, he said that somebody filed a complaint against me and that am under investigation. I called back the number but no one answers, i called 411 and they said it is not listed and that it could be a cellphone number. i called number several times no voicemail or nothing! until i saw this website and found out that theres alot of complaints about this number. BEWARE!”
@ Amy: I think this involves investigation. Perhaps it need to be reported to the police!!
dee wrote:
Yes, Amy, please let Dee call the Houston Police Department for you. Nobody does it better… 🙂
dee wrote:
I get the strange sense that this is a post in the making…
Dee, just think, we could be spending our leisure time playing tennis or bridge or doing brunch or lunch, but nooooo — we're blogging… We really have covered a lot of ground in our 4+ years on the net.
@ dee:
Would someone stoop so low to intimidate? Possibly someone from a Christian organization?
TW,
Thank you for that video, the music of Tenth Avenue North has consistently ministered to us, particularly through these past few years.
Blessings!
Yes, Dee, I’d love for you to call HPD! The timing is also suspicious and telling. I spoke with Doug from HFBC last Monday, and then my husband Matt met with him on Tuesday. I didn’t write about my experience with the call from Doug until basically last Friday, after midnight Thursday night but it wasn’t widespread until Friday morning when the ABP ran the story. The officer left me that voicemail about 11:00 am…after I went public about the call from my church being critical of my plans to hold the awareness event.
On the voicemail he says to call him back at 713-303-2140, a different number than the one he called from.
@ Amy: Impersonating a police officer is a crime. Hopefully this has an answer.
The first time I heard of friendly relations between Baptist leaders and SGM, I was aghast. The Baptists were the last group I’d ever have imagined getting cozy with SGM.
But now — and yes, the resolution is a baby-step — I’m marveling at God’s mysterious ways. Perhaps the whole buddy-buddy thing has been ‘for such a time as this’.
I believe that the run-of-the-mill Christian has been blissfully unaware of the horrors of child sexual abuse. I know I have been. Other child abuse is more visible –there are bruises and scars we can see — though those are hidden, too, especially in the church where everyone comes in scrubbed and shiny on Sunday mornings.
Growing up, I had no idea that such a thing could happen to a child, and well into adulthood, believed that it occurred only very rarely. I would imagine that most people to whom this has not happened — and maybe those to whom it HAS happened — believe that it is very rare. We would never have imagined that it even happened once in our church — much less over and over and over again.
I am thankful that we are waking up, for the sake of these victims, and hope that we can go forward by creating atmospheres in our homes, schools, churches, etc., where victims can feel affirmed and validated, and can be assured that whatever happened to them did NOT ruin their purity and did not ruin their chances of an abundant life in Christ. With God’s help, His love, good counseling, prayer, the prosecution of those who perpetrated and preventive measures to treat those who are inappropriately attracted to children, victims will never have to suffer one moment from bad treatment from those who should be protecting them.
The dynamics of believing that a person we like and trust could possibly have done such horrible things are complex, and those dynamics have played into the hands of perps who’ve played us for fools. The inability or unwillingness of our minds to even imagine or picture the actions of these encounters have led us to disbelieve that this ‘nice’ person could possibly have done such things. It was easier to believe that someone made up a story than to believe that this fine, upstanding young man could possibly have done such terrible things. But we must face up to the hard facts and resolve never again to be played for fools.
I know that pedophiles are beyond normal treatment in most cases. Still, I have to say we need to teach society from Day 1 that people who touch other people inappropriately will get a mudhole stomped in them that will hurt a heck of a lot more than any kind of perverted pleasure they think they’re gonna get.
And, just thinking about all this makes me wonder — perhaps any of you with sociological educations might know. Is there any society in which this is unheard of? Is it more prevalent in one country than another? Maybe there’s no way of knowing. But one thing is for sure — if we can’t stamp out the sins, we need to stamp out the protection of perpetrators. Thank you, Peter Lumpkins, Amy Smith, Pam Palmer, and all those who are working to do just that!
dee wrote:
I have caller ID and numerous phone numbers come up with identifiers that I don’t recognize; i.e. “your healthcare” or “contractors” etc. I do a google search for that phone number and always find it under hundreds of those “who’s calling me?” sites. These types of phone numbers are usually scammers who use very clever identities to get you to answer the phone.
@ dee:
I also found this: http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-713-658-1737
“This number is legitimate!!! I work fot the police department. It actually could be from any one of several divisions as they all go through a trunk router whch makes out-going numbers random but incoming calls to desk numbers direct. That is the reason no one answers when you call it back. It does not go to a specific phone, just to the police trunk line.
If you receive this number on your caller I.D. it means a police officer is trying to reach you and did not feel like the information he was conveying to you was appropriate to leave a message. Trust me, if it was important, he will call back, otherwise, he likely reached you at another number or obtained the information some other way.”
It may truly be a legitimate call. That still doesn’t remove the creepiness factor that someone reported you to harass and intimidate you. It reminds me of what happened between Chris Tynes and Prestonwood.
@ Amy:
@ Victorious:
Amy This gets weirder. I tried to call the number you had to “call back” and it goes to an unidentified voice mailbox.
Victorious-this is all very strange. If it was the police, when you return the call, you should get something like “This is Captain Smith of HPD.” This need to be looked into.
Amy-let’s talk in the AM.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
I meant that reply for Amy. Sorry. 🙁
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Can you try this number? 713-303-2140. This goes to unidentified voicemail.
P.S. I never answer those phone calls as I recognize them as scammers. If they leave a message, I never return the call because if you do, they will continue to call back. Our local newspapers are full of warnings about very clever scams. I figure a legitimate agency will notify me by mail, but even then some of those look very official and lots of seniors fall for them. Most are aimed at extracting money for a very legitimate sounding purpose.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
OK-now I am not so sure that this is a legitimate number. Did you read all of the notes on that page? I think there is one way to figure this out. Amy-let’s talk in the AM
@ dee:
Actually, if the number is a direct line to an officer, sometimes there is no message. It might be best for Amy to call and leave a message. The officer is more likely to return the call if he recognizes the name.
Also, call the main line to the HPD and ask for verification of that officer and number. It’s serious business to impersonate an officer (if they find that’s what happened).
dee wrote:
All I could find was this: http://www.reversecallerdatabase.com/searchResults?phone=713-303-2140
Probably just best to check it out, like you said, to be sure.
Amy
I scanned this long list of HPD phone numbers. No prefix with 658 but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a police officers individual number. I have called both numbers and there are no answers and no voice mail identifiers.
Whoops-here is the link
http://www.houstontx.gov/police/phone.htm
Criminal Intelligence is in the organizational chart under Homeland Security. I called the main number earlier tonight and it went to voicemail saying no one in the department was available. Criminal Intelligence 713 308-8700
Here’s the chart http://www.houstontx.gov/police/contact/images/org_chart.pdf
Amy wrote:
The noble cause I was referring to is yours, not the SBC’s. To call the resolution which was passed what you called it is absurd.
Bob Cleveland wrote:
Last time. That. Was. NOT. MY. STATEMENT. BOB. THE END.
Christa Brown’s new post:
“But for Southern Baptists, a reminder to obey the law took a convention with 5000 delegates and heaps of hoopla. And of course, it’s still just talk. It doesn’t actually do anything at all. It sure as heck doesn’t impose any consequences on pastors who choose not to obey reporting laws and who instead keep quiet about sex abuse allegations against their clergy-cronies.”
Another year of Baptist do-nothingness on clergy sex abuse:
http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/06/another-year-of-baptist-do-nothingness.html
To clarify, SNAP and I were not affiliated in any way with the resolution. Our statements regarding it echo Peter’s own words…”However, I feel it needs to be stronger.”
Amy wrote:
Blowing long trumpets before themselves (Humbly, of course), so that they may be seen by men.
Amy wrote:
Which means you’re now a Terrorist on the Terrorist Watch List.
Don’t buy any pressure cookers.
MudHoles: “Vigilance Not Vigilantes?”
hmmm….
Is this commenter [Nickname] insinuating that violence, may now be required as standard fare against child sexual abusers?
(Advocating some type of vigilantly justice? )
Justice failing, so now physical violence is clearly advocated?!?
What?
(sadface)
“Still, I have to say we need to teach society from Day 1 that people who touch other people inappropriately will get a mudhole stomped in them that will hurt a heck of a lot more than any kind of perverted pleasure they think they’re gonna get…” – Nickname
full comment:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/06/12/sbcs-convention-a-victory-amidst-turmoil/#comment-103551
Definition: “stomp a mudhole” – To tear someone a new @zz, to beat them to near death, or to otherwise hurt someone to the point that they can not fight back. As in, Slang: “When that little punk sexually abused my child after Sunday school, I could do nothing else but stomp a mudhole in his @zz.”
Is it more than calls from the Houston police department, blog folks will be now receivin’ ?
could b.
….civic duty brings about civic responsibility, which brings about crime prevention, which brings about a decent house of worship in which to attend? Whatz up wit dat?
Does child sexual bring about coverup, which brings about a failure of justice, which brings about kind folks taking things into their own hands, which brings violence?
huh?
Nickname, is that what you are in advocacy of here at Wartburg?
Might want to re-think that line of thinking just a tad.
—
Amy, LOL, HUG may be right about you being on a watch list, now. I think I was put on one several years back, but didn’t find out until we went to board a flight we had already paid for. I was irate, because I’ve never threatened anyone, never been even questioned on a misdemeanor level, perfect background checks, etc. I wrote a letter of complaint to the TSA about that, and haven’t had any problems since. But in the process, I researched a little about watch lists, and found that the net is pretty big as to who is considered a potential threat. I think it happened to me because of a political candidate I was temporarily in support of that year, but who knows?
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Definitely agree. I was deeply disturbed to accidentally find a reality TV show on Lifetime Network that is essentially the Teen Challenge/Scared Straight methodology as employed by an uneducated and unlicensed “teen behavior expert” Josh Shipp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Trouble
I posted Christa Brown’s new post here on Reddit…lively discussion at least!
http://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1gcckz/another_year_of_baptist_donothingness_on_clergy/
Comment on ABP story about the resolution:
“I am not sure if these words mean anything. Are there consequences for not reporting
abuse or allowing a known predator to remain in the ministry? If there are what are they? What of those who know and cover up? I know in the past that the SBC has taken action against churches that went against certain things. Can they now take action? If someone knows I would like to know. If there are no actions to back up words,then this is not good.”
Pam Palmer is quoted in this new ABP story about an accused Baptist pastor in Missouri facing new child sex crime charges this week.
http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/8594-accused-mo-pastor-faces-new-charges#.UbuDK8u9KSO
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Is that the Ron Luce organization? If so, I have mentioned them in passing with a couple of links in older threads. There are ex members of the Luce academy (I forget what it’s called) who describe wonky teaching and spiritual abuse
Many good comments from TWW regulars over at this blog post. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2013/06/10/the-least-of-these-an-example-of-the-right-doctrine-from-the-wrong-text/?comments#comments
On the other side of the argument is “Hodge,” who reminds me of the Calvinistas at my old church: He has a twisted view of Christianity, haughty, rude, condescending and mocking. I was given some good advice: If your church has a guy like this in leadership, don’t argue, just vote with your feet.
@ Janey:
Yah, Hodge’s god, rather than overflowing with greatness and generosity, has only just enough to care for his chosen and must be parsimonious.
And as Hodge says, the rest of humanity are devil’s children. He himself has pre-determined it. 😈
Off Topic … but newsworthy. Christian school expels student for being lesbian, then hounds her for tuition reimbursement.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/14/grace-university-omaha-christian-college-lesbian/2425467/
Fendrel wrote:
Maybe the college should extend her some of the so-called “grace” they’re so fond of touting in their institution’s name and religious beliefs.
@ Daisy:
No, that;s Aquire the Fire…..
Janey wrote:
And this “Hodge” character is still at it…had to finally end the exchange as civilly as possible…at times reading through “Hodge’s” remarks I wondered whether this was just a sick prank at work…apparently not…
This comment thread on Lumpkins’ blog seems to suggest yet again that SBC fundamentalists (like Lumpkins, cb scott, and the others) are not interested in doing all that could be done to prevent child abuse in the SBC: http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2013/06/interview-on-the-janet-mefferd-show-1.html
I have to agree with what Christa Brown recently wrote: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/06/another-year-of-baptist-do-nothingness.html