Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world. -CS Lewis
Solar Eruption 12/31/12-NASA
Let's start with a bit of housekeeping. As you all know, it is our wish to allow all sorts of comments on this blog, even ones with which we disagree. We don't even mind being called names, which happens on a rather regular basis. Because this blog deals with spiritual abuse, we allow comments that are difficult. Pain must be expressed and we want this to be a safe place for those who need to express their hurt. We are more interested in the hurt than the words that express that hurt. Sometimes, that can be uncomfortable but so be it. This is not a blog which only talks with Christians. Although the two of us are deeply committed Christians, we want the discussion to go beyond our small circles.
It is difficult to decide when a conversation has stepped over the line. We are not perfect and often agonize over "what to do." Sometimes the conversation switches from discussion of a post, a theological construct or the struggles of a reader to a focus on a particular commenter. Then a discussion ensues that spotlights on the intent of that reader and disagreements abound. Suddenly that reader becomes the hub. I am not referring to a reader who shares their struggles, their thoughts, etc. This has happened only a handful of times. Jimmy/Seneca is good example. Out of the blue, Jimmy became the focus of the conversation. If that happens, we may put someone on ice for a couple of weeks, like Jimmy. They are welcome back but will be watched a bit more carefully than usual.
We are expecting a lot of visitors in the coming months as the SGM lawsuit heats up. One way to interfere with a blog is to change the subject at hand and cause pointless dissension. We plan to be on guard for that tactic and may step in. If you think we are being unfair, please feel free to let us know. We don't mind.
2. Today was the last straw. We are going to ban the word "bitterness" as a critique because we are bored. The people who use this have no imagination whatsoever. If we are going to be insulted, let's be insulted in style. So, we will ask the individual to use a thesaurus and come up with a synonym. Mordant is one of my current favorite alternatives. However, one can use the word "bitter" if one is recounting being called bitter.
Julie Anne Smith wrote me an email, saying she was in a deep funk from reading the amended SGM lawsuit. So am I. I am frankly disgusted by the allegations, which, if proven to be true, will go down in evangelical history as one of the most despicable, documented examples of a debased church leadership.
A Recipe for Building a Church From Hell
So, let's take a look at the following allegations from the amended lawsuit that, in my opinion outline how to be sure you are building a church from hell.
When someone reports an incident of abuse, do not let on that you are concerned. Instead, raise your eyebrows and shake your head, making sure you convey that you do not believe them, even if you do.
27. Defendants learned about multiple instances of sexual and physical abuse of children by receiving credible reports directly from victims and from a number of different Church members. Defendants also learned of sexual and physical predation by admissions made in non-confessional settings by perpetrators.
Do not investigate what you have been told and do not report it to the godless authorities because you never know what they will find and you could get in trouble. Remember, you are more important than anyone in your church, especially little children.
28. To date, Defendants have never taken any steps to investigate the extent of physical and sexual abuse of children occurring on Defendants’ premises and during Defendants’ proceedings, such as Home Group and Celebration. Defendants failed to alert law enforcement authorities, and failed to take any steps whatsoever to protect children from physical and sexual abuse.
Whatever you do, instill fear of the godless, secular authorities and make sure your members never, ever go outside the church for help. Studiously ignore all passages of Scripture which advocate obeying the law of the land. That only applies to speeding and terrorist plots.
29. Instead, Defendants taught members to fear and distrust all secular authorities, and expressly directed members not to contact law enforcement to report sexual and physical assaults on children. Defendants gave guidance to members on how best to prevent secular authorities from observing bruising and other physical indicia of abuse. This practices has not stopped, as is evidenced by teachings as communications as recent as August 2011.
If the victims disobey you and go to the godless authorities, tip off the predators that the heathens are coming for them. After all, they have been forgiven and are now one of the elite elect.
On those occasions when Defendants were not successful in persuading the parents of the victim to refrain from contacting law enforcement, Defendants interfered with the administration of justice by tipping off the sexual predators that they had been reported to law enforcement.
Pay for counsel for the predators because God has forgiven them. God has not forgiven the victims because they disobeyed the gospel based leadership so there will be no free counseling for them. Also, lying to secular authorities is not really lying because they are heathens.
Defendants provided sexual predators with free legal advice and counsel on how to evade accountability, and repeatedly worked with sexual predators to mislead law enforcement. Defendants were willing to, and did, make false statements to law enforcement officials and in courts of law in its efforts to protect sexual predators.
Lying is always justified if it protects the reputation of the church. Corollary: You are the leader of the church so lying is also justified to protect yourself. Placing the church's reputation over the well-being of children is biblical. It says so, somewhere in the gospel, doesn't it? (Note: get a member of the elite to write a position paper ASAP).
Upon information and belief, the Defendants never initiated contact with the police or any other secular authority when it learned of sexual predation occurring under its auspices. Instead, the Defendants concealed the ongoing sexual predation in order to avoid any financial or reputational harms to the Church. Defendants admitted that it placed such harms over the well-being of the vulnerable children in its care, claiming “[t]hat is our responsibility to protect the Church from harm, and that includes a lawsuit against the Church.”
Tell everyone in the church that it is a gospel mandate to never, ever discuss children being victimized. It is gossip, slander, scuttlebutt, blathering, muckraking, slime and is definitely evidence of bitterness, which has recently been found to be the unforgivable sin. Therefore, if a member speaks, he/she is not regenerated and is therefore wicked (not to be confused with the musical).
Defendants forbade members from discussing sexual predation, which created additional opportunities for sexual predation to occur,
Let elect pedophiles continue to serve the gospel by working with children. Make sure you do not tell the parents. They tend to get a little uppity about such things. Then you would have to waste time by disciplining them.
Defendants permitted and, as reasonable discovery will show, is continuing to permit, known pedophiles to interact with children without advising the parents of these interactions. For example, Defendants have permitted one known pedophile to homeschool children at his house, and has permitted another to attend a children’s camping trip.
Force little children to forgive their pedophile because it is the gospel. If they have trouble doing so, they are part of the unregenerate and wicked multitude. Make sure their parents are given a book on discipline that teaches them to whack the sin out those disobedient children.
Defendants exacerbated the harm to the innocent victims of sexual predation by forcing them (some as young as 2 and 3 years old) to meet and “forgive” their sexual predators. These sessions re-traumatized the victims and their parents.
If the parents of the victims won't do as they are told, then gospel revenge is a biblical solution.
Defendants retaliated against those parents who refused to participate in the Defendants efforts to assist sexual predators evade secular accountability. Defendants engaged in a series of coercive and retaliatory acts designed to isolate and harm, including threatening families’ financial well-being, threatening expulsion from the church, and threatening legal action against victims and their families.
Lying is biblically allowed and upheld by the gospel if it keeps your members in line. Pretending you are the "happiest place on earth" trumps truth, always.
Defendants misled its members by making a series of false statements designed to allay concerns about the ongoing sexual predation. During a meeting held on August 17, 2011, the Church claimed – falsely – that there had only been two incidents of sexual predation when the Church knew the number was far greater.
Let's take a look at a couple of the abuse situations as outlined in the lawsuit. It is vital for everyone to understand that these incidents are not a 15 year old girl caught in flagrante with her 18 year old boyfriend.
*Trigger alert*
These situation are enough to cause anger and pain in even the most hard-hearted individuals. Whoops-almost all hard-hearted people, if you get my drift. Read the lawsuit.
Karl Koe: the heart-wrenching story of the 7 year old. He is the first named, male victim.
53. Karl Koe was seven years old when he was repeatedly sexually molested (approximately ten times) by the male son of a Church pastor.
54. The perpetrator (then aged approximately 12 or 13) molested Karl Koe in multiple locations, including the bathroom at Church. The perpetrator engaged in multiple unwanted sexual acts, including kissing Karl Koe and fondling his penis.
55. After Karl Koe informed his parents that he had been molested, his parents advised Defendants Ecelbarger, Gallo, Mullery and V. Hinders, as well as others, of the molestation. Defendants failed to report the molestation to the secular authorities. Defendant V. Hinders misrepresented to the parents of Karl Koe that the Church had taken care of the matter by requiring the perpetrator to attend a different church service than Karl Koe.
56. Defendants, including the pastor father of the predator, failed to take any steps whosever to prevent the juvenile sexual predator from preying upon other children. Defendants continued to permit the juvenile sexual predator to have unfettered access to child on Church premises and during Church activities, such as Home Group and Celebration.
57. Upon information and belief, the juvenile perpetrator may have been one of the victims of the pedophilia ring operating at the School prior to sexually molesting Karl Koe.
The heartbreaking story of Norma Noe, 2 years old, who was molested and made to forgive her pedophile.
74. On or about March 17, 1993, a church member sexually molested Norma Noe. Norma Noe was two years old at the time of the sexual assault and living in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
75. The parents of Norma Noe learned of the abuse the day after it occurred. They immediately called the police and reported the assault. After calling the police, they contacted Defendant Loftness. He immediately advised the parents “do not call the police.” When the parents of Norma Noe advised Defendant Loftness that they had already called the police, he expressed his displeasure (stating “that is going to be a problem”), and explained that such matters were handled internally by the church leadership, not by secular authorities.
76. Defendants, acting through Defendant Loftness, immediately interfered with the administration of justice by tipping off the perpetrator that the parents had reported his sexual predation to the police. Defendant Loftness also took steps to ensure that other church members in the neighborhood were not alerted to the crime.
77. Defendant Loftness continued to interfere with the impartial administration of justice. Defendant Loftness “obtained” a confession from the predator, and began to serve as an intermediary between the police and the predator in order to control and prevent the dissemination of information to other families whose children were at risk of predation.
78. Defendants required the parents of Norma Noe to bring Norma Noe to a meeting to be “reconciled” with her predator. When Norma Noe (who had just turned three) was brought into the same room with her predator, she was visibly scared and crawled under the chair. The “reconciliation” meeting created additional damage to Norma Noe, already traumatized by the initial abuse, and traumatized the parents of Norma Noe.
79. Defendant Loftness involved Defendants Ricucci and Layman to assist him in disseminating false and misleading information to the police and to church members.
80. Defendants did not take any steps whatsoever to learn the extent of sexual predation by the predator, such as advising the police that the predator had been charged with the care of numerous toddlers in his role as a Home Group babysitter. The parents of other children exposed to the predator were never advised of the sexual assault, and never counseled to be alert for signs of trauma in their children.
81. Defendants advised the parents of Norma Noe that they were required to remain completely silent about who had committed the assault, and thus refrain from providing other members of the Church information needed to protect their own children from the sexual predation.
82. Defendants required the parents of Norma Noe to refrain from telling any other church members the name of the sexual predator who had sexual assaulted their three-year old daughter.
83. Defendants knowingly permitted the sexual predator to continue to participate, unsupervised, in church activities with children despite his conviction for molesting Norma Noe.
84. Defendants withheld information from the parents of Norma Noe about the assault that the Church had obtained directly from the predator.
85. Defendants misled the parents in order to prevent them from attending court appearances and filing a victim impact statement.
86. Upon information and belief, the juvenile perpetrator who molested Norma Noe may have previously been a victim of the pedophilia ring operating at the School.
Please join with TWW in prayer for these victims. Imagine being 2 and 7 year old victim of molestation. How about the pain of their parents? I have one thing to say to anyone who ignored these situations. May God have mercy on your soul.
One of our readers, Rafiki, sent a link to this group of soccer players who were victims of horrific crimes. Here is the synopsis from You Tube.
On the 6th January 2013 the SLASA (Sierra Leone Soccer Association) put on a match in Fireforce, Eastern Freetown, to commemorate the anniversary of the invasion of Freetown when, back in 1999, the RUF (Revolutionary United Front) rebels committed horrific acts against the civilian population, including the cutting off of limbs. It was on that day that some of these players became amputees.
I hope this video brings hope to the victims and their families. These men were horribly abused. Yet, they show the undying strength of the human spirit. May God fill you all with His love and strength.
Lydia's Corner: Numbers 33:40-35:34 Luke 5:12-28 Psalm 65:1-13 Proverbs 11:23
“Mordant is one of my current favorite alternatives.”
That makes me think of Baroque trills…except that kind is spelled with an E, not an A.
If you need something to take your mind off the lawsuit there’s an email from me in your inbox that I should give you a much-needed laugh. ; )
Dee and Deb- Good call on those commenters who make a habit of crossing the line. I don’t know that I would call it a “spiritual attack,” it might be, but we have had our fair share of :::ahem::: obstacles: you had your Twitter acct. compromised and shut down. On the same day, many readers who visited both FBC Jax Watchdog and my site were greeted with a pop-up warning from their anti-virus software not allowing them to access our site. One of our favorite attorneys contacted the company to find out what was going on and was told that someone reported our sites as malicious phishing sites. They lifted the ban and all was back to normal, but come on, FBC Jax Watchdogs and me on the same day? Things that make you go hmmm. . . .
Some people feel threatened by us or do not like what we are doing. Some will go to great lengths to sabotage our efforts. Those commenters who cross the line drawing attention to themselves, show no empathy for survivors, who defend abusers are not benefitting anyone and detract from the important stories that must be told. Go Deb and Dee!!
Very good. First part is like a Screwtape Letters to church leaders.
How convenient that their doctrine – er, GOSPEL doctrine – dovetailed so neatly with their belief that authorities should not be notified. Can’t blame them for inconsistency.
I addressed some of these thoughts here: http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2013/01/abuse-thrives-in-culture-of-shame-and.html
As a former longtime SGM member, I am freshly livid about these amended allegations.
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Julie Anne, I saw sabotage tactics like what you describe happened to you all for years done by the minions of the celebs. It is how cowards operate with deception and I came to the conclusion that celebrity Christianity is filled with cowards and their cult of personality following.
I am listening to James Duncan on Pirate Radio and his horrible experience with New Spring and the shallow bad little boy pastor, Perry Noble. I cannot tell you how familiar it all sounds. Churches are sued all the time they just don’t make the news because of settlements with the condition of a gag rule. blogging is changing all that.
Note how the grand celebrity leaders are never directly responsible even though they are “in authority”.
Dee, What I saw in the mega church world is that NOTHING is more important than the image/reputation of the church and the leaders. NOTHING. And they believe they have done/are doing great things for God so protecting the vehicles that do great things for God is most important.
The most chilling thing about this is that the evil that is done to protect the image of the church/leaders is done in the Name of Jesus. Jesus is their cover. It is chilling….for them.
@ Eagle:
Impressive machine there, Eagle!
anon 1 wrote:
anon 1 wrote:
These two things tie together and I’ve been an up close witness to both. It’s been 6 years since I walked away from that place and it still hurts…not as bed as it did at first, but it still hurts. And all the people I thought cared about me who would scowl and turn away in the store….yeah.
And as I commented on the previous thread, they cover each other’s butts. Hmm…I finally did read the lawsuit amendment and it has stirred a lot of anger and, maybe, cynicism…..
It is so hard to read this. You know, I think many people who join any church assume that a “Christian” environment will certainly be safer for themselves and their children than a secular one. If molestation does take place, certainly the “men of God” will support the victims and make certain the proper authorities are notified. I mean, a church will do the right thing, won’t it? (Sarcasm)
‘Defendants admitted that it placed such harms over the well-being of the vulnerable children in its care, claiming “[t]hat is our responsibility to protect the Church from harm, and that includes a lawsuit against the Church.”’ I think this should be part of SGM’s statement of faith, so that all who consider joining them can read it and RUN the other way.
Karl and Norma, I grieve that you even have to confront this in the first place. You are amazing for speaking out. I hope that the people who harmed you and then those who covered it up are finally brought to justice. You may be sparing many other children from living the nightmare you lived.
“Force little children to forgive their pedophile because it is the gospel. If they have trouble doing so, they are part of the unregenerate and wicked multitude. Make sure their parents are given a book on discipline that teaches them to whack the sin out those disobedient children.”
…and this might just be the worst part of this nightmare. Sickening.
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Per your first characteristic of a church from hell, the raised eyebrows approach to hearing this information, even now is the modus operandi. I’ve Been watching what others are saying on Twitter and this is a common approach.
“Wait until you hear the other side of the story.”
Not always bad advice. But it rings hollow with so much silence and zero public concern for those who have exposed themselves as victims. I assume this is one reason among many why it is so hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward – immediate suspicion on top of all the shame and pain.
But the opposite is true.
Shame is the sole possession of those playing the part of heroes but saying nothing. While the real heroes proceed under the shadow of raised eyebrows.
Jukie Anne
“One of our favorite attorneys contacted the company to find out what was going on and was told that someone reported our sites as malicious phishing sites. They lifted the ban and all was back to normal, but come on, FBC Jax Watchdogs and me on the same day? Things that make you go hmmm. “
I did not realize that you contacted an attorney to look into this. What a bunch of wussy boys who do this sort of thing. Authority leaders, my foot!
Virgina
Keep your “livid” on. I bet there are more things coming.
Dee,
The words uttered by C.J. Mahaney in the following Resolved trailer are taking on new meaning after reading this post.
Resolved 2009 Trailer
Here is what Mahaney said at the beginning of the trailer:
Eagle
Excellent analysis regarding cults and vulnerability. I see a bit of myself in what you say. We traveled a bit for my husband to get his specific training as well as to payback the government in the Indian Health Service. Thankfully, as I traveled, the churches where I landed were wonderful. Except for a short stint in Ed Young Jr's church, we had good teaching and the regular problems that you see in all churches. Absolutely no hyper authoritarian stuff.
So, when I finally stepped into a church which had some leadership weirdness, I overlooked it for a few years, thinking I was being a bit critical. I wasn't. The signs were there, and it all eventually exploded.
With the new Driscollesque hyper-authoritarian, weird spin of Reformed theology infecting lots of churches, it is a lot harder today to find a good, basic evangelical church. Everyone seems to want to be the next John Piper, Mark Dever, Mark Driscoll, etc. This has caused some real problems in churches all over America. I am beginning to think it is better to find a small church that has a real pastor and eschew the bells and whistles of a successful mega, satellite, cool dude pastor approach. Those tend to have pastors who are trying to be the next "whatever."
@Deb,
And I say, speakest thou for thyself, Charles Joseph.
Or is he using the royal we?
I have decided that I am GLAD that this is all coming out and I want the media to cover it – so that other churches are warned, so that the truth humbles and possibly incarcerates those involved, and I think in the long run the church will be better off. I can’t take the deception of the leadership. They now get to FACE the “godless” government….and feel the power of the law AGAINST them, and I am GLAD. Let the other churches be warned. Let God be glorified when people that claim to know Him are exposed.
Eagle
Christmas 2011 – I served shrimp cocktail as an appetizer. My mother's elderly husband wanted to take the leftover shrimp home. So, I put the remaining 6 shrimp in a plastic bag and put it in a tote bag with sauce. At the end of January, my mother called me and said something was wrong with their apartment. There was a bad smell. They had the carpet cleaned but it didn't help. i thought maybe a critter had died in the wall.
Her husband dropped by my house while I was out, and left me some mail. My contractor was sitting in the kitchen and said he thought the dogs had bad gas. It was horrible. Well, as soon as I came in, I smelled it. It centered around the tote bag. I dumped the tote bag out-nothing. But the smell kept getting worse, so I turned the tote bag inside out-Yep-the shrimp from Christmas were caught in the fold of the bag and had degraded to a green fluid….. We have laughed about this all year.
anon1
I plan to tell the aftermath of the Duncan story over here. His experience has led me to believe that Perry Noble and his leaders are from the pit of hell.
Matt
You are an awesome writer. I intend to write a review for Amazon today and review your book next week. 5 stars!
Deb
You know, from a psych point of view, Could CJ be self-loathing because he knows something we don't?
I am beginning to wonder. He is the worst sinner he knows….
Natalie
For many of us, it is the little children who were forced to "forgive" their abuser that is the final straw. SGM recommended books through the years which are heavy on corporal punishment. Larry Tomczak himself, who is named in the suit, wrote one such book and still advocates spanking. He has an odd spin, though. He believes you keep on spanking. He is alleged to have an adult female pull down her pants and be spanked by him.
Totally off topic, but I think we could all use a laugh. I LOVE this story.
She spent the first day packing her belongings into boxes, crates and suitcases.
On the second day, she had the movers come and collect her things.
On the third day, she sat down for the last time at their beautiful dining room table by candle light, put on some soft background music and feasted on a pound of shrimp, a jar of caviar and a bottle of Chardonnay.
When she had finished, she went into each and every room and deposited a few half-eaten shrimp shells dipped in caviar, into the hollow of the curtain rods. She then cleaned up the kitchen and left.
When the husband returned with his new girlfriend, all was bliss for the first few days. Then slowly, the house began to smell. They tried everything cleaning, mopping and airing the place out.
Vents were checked for dead rodents and carpets were steam cleaned.
Air fresheners were hung everywhere. Exterminators were brought in to set off gas canisters, during which they had to move out for a few days, and in the end they even paid to replace the expensive wool carpeting.
Nothing worked. People stopped coming over to visit. Repairmen refused to work in the house. The maid quit.
Finally, they could not take the stench any longer and decided to move.
A month later, even though they had cut their price in half, they could not find a buyer for their stinky house. Word got out and eventually even the local Realtors refused to return their calls.
Finally, they had to borrow a huge sum of money from the bank to purchase a new place.
The ex-wife called the man and asked how things were going. He told her the saga of the rotting house. She listened politely and said that she missed her old home terribly, and would be willing to reduce her divorce settlement in exchange for getting the house back.
Knowing his ex-wife had no idea how bad the smell was, he agreed on a price that was about 1/10th of what the house had been worth, but only if she were to sign the papers that very day.
She agreed and within the hour his lawyers delivered the paperwork.
A week later the man and his girlfriend stood smiling as they watched the moving company pack everything to take to their new home……Including the curtain rods.
Phoenix
Best laugh of the day
“Including the curtain rods.”
@ Phoenix:
Ha! I’m going to share this with some people who have been through a nasty divorce. Love it.
Hey all – I just recently connected with Matt Redmond. What a great guy. Check out this latest article on this case and discussing why people are remaining silent. It’s good! http://mattbredmond.com/2013/01/18/the-lawsuit-against-sgm-and-waiting-for-the-other-side-of-the-story/
@ Julie Anne:
He has a very, VERY good point.
“We are eniemies of God.We are God ignoring.We are God-defying.We hate God.”
CJ is telling on himself. He’s admitting he doesn’t even know God though he led(munipulated) people to believe he did. These type of people always end up telling on themselves.Of course this wasn’t the only time he has done this.
Deb wrote~
“Dee,
The words C.J. Mahaney uttered in this 2009 Resolved trailer are taking on new meaning after reading this post.
2009 Resolved Trailer
Here is what Mahaney said at the beginning of the trailer:
“We are enemies of God. We are God-ignoring. We are God-defying. We hate God.”
Well, if he didn’t set this huge problem that we (Christians…he was speaking at a Christian conference- mainly attended by Christians, right?) all supposedly have, then we unenlightened ones wouldn’t need his humble wisdom.
It’s just downright depressing and telling, imo, that Mahaney uses this from Robinson’s hymn on his twitter: “Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it, Prone to leave the God I love;”.
I like the hymn, so it’s not that. I can think of more positive things to declare to the world about my status as a believer than…oh well…prone to leave God.
@ Phoenix:
Bwaaahahahahahahaha!
“Including the curtain rods.”
@ Stormy~
You read my mind. 🙂
@ Julie Anne~
Thanks for the link. Good points!
Worth reading again:
“But let’s be honest, something is horribly wrong within SGM and has been for a long time. No one waited this long to deem Jerry Sandusky, Joe Paterno and the rest of Penn State as guilty of similar crimes.
Not even the neo-Calvinists.
If this were someone whose theology we did not like, say Joel Osteen…we would not wait to say anything. With bated breath, we would not wait.”
Jeannette Altes shared this in a previous thread. I hope she doesn’t mind me repeating it here.
“As I think about the heavy emphasis on purity teaching in SGM, and then I think about what was being done to the children behind the scenes….it was an added layer of messing with the mind. When I talk to my therapist matter of factly about what happened when I was a child and what the church I grew up in taught, she looks at me and says,’it is a amazing you’re not schizophrenic.’ This stuff really messes with you. To be taught in church that in order to be okay with God, you have to do this, and then behind closed doors, you are forced (and often told God requires you) to do the opposite, it is called a double bind and it can cause serious mental problems.”
This really got my wheels turning. In my experience with an abusive church- and as we saw played out by the defense in the Sandusky case- often, when when someone comes forward with an accusation of abuse, sexual or otherwise, the first response of the accused is to denigrate the accusers character to discredit their testimony. In the Sandusky case, many of the youths already had troubled backgrounds and underprivileged circumstances. Thank God the jury saw past that and believed their stories. None of us are perfect. If someone goes looking for character flaws they will find them. But, considering what Jeannette shared, these victims could possibly have serious psychological issues that were CREATED by the church environment SGM has exhibited. I’m praying for strength and courage for all of the victims, and for wisdom for the judge and possible jury. I’m concerned that SGM’s silence in this matter is more indicative that they’re building a defense. These victims may face further abuse. God be with them.
” When I talk to my therapist matter of factly about what happened when I was a child and what the church I grew up in taught, she looks at me and says,’it is a amazing you’re not schizophrenic.”
You know, I never really thought about this before, but it is no wonder we grow up so confused about where the lines are regarding forgiveness, justice and punishment. Even at the most ‘benign’ level of discipline we get spanked and grounded as children by our parents and teachers and religious leaders for minor infractions but yet those same authority figures tell us that we have to forgive the most heinous crimes of others and not even talk about them to the law. The punishment they/we meet out to our children certainly doesn’t appear to be forgiveness by the adults. If any adult expects to be forgiven without consequences that adult has no right to discipline anyone, especially children.
“We are enemies of God. We are God-ignoring. We are God-defying. We hate God.”
Here is the more chilling part. He is preaching this to mostly very young pastors. And they believe him. They cheer him.
Now, if that does not put you on guard when looking for a church, nothing will. They are out there….hating God, ignoring God… and paid to pastor a church. Nuts, isn’t it?
Even at the most ‘benign’ level of discipline we get spanked and grounded as children by our parents and teachers and religious leaders for minor infractions but yet those same authority figures tell us that we have to forgive the most heinous crimes of others and not even talk about them to the law. The punishment they/we meet out to our children certainly doesn’t appear to be forgiveness by the adults. If any adult expects to be forgiven without consequences that adult has no right to discipline anyone, especially children.”
Bingo! Basically they are saying, become an “adult” Christian and you can sin all you want.
Anon 1,
That's an excellent point about Mahaney's audience. Those conference attendees were devout Christians. I remember making that point in my post from three years ago called:
The Scream of the Damned and the Last Straw
I wrote two related posts which I hope some of our readers will check out
Living the Cross-Centered Life: 'A Deficient Gospel'
What's Wrong with 'Living the Cross-Centered Life?
There is so much wrong with the Calvinista theology. It's Jesus + ________
Sin-sniffing, Complementarianism, just fill in the blank…
“Here’s the most chilling part.He is preaching this to mostly very young pastors.And they believe him. They cheer him.”
Not only that, the others who were speakers at that conference are also in agreement with what he says. Their churches are huge and polluted with this stuff.
Stormy, AMEN!
@ Phoenix:
That is awesome!!! 😀
Patti wrote:
You know, I complained to a pastor about this bizarre double standard once. He looked at me like I had two heads. Everybody else’s camels can go crashing through the camp wreaking all sorts of havoc but our gnats must be dealt with mercilessly forthwith.
Phoenix,
My hubby shared that story with me a few months ago. He keeps me laughing.
Did you see this article by Wendy Alsup? http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2013/01/abuse-allegations-in-ministries-we-love.html
“Wait until you hear the other side of the story.”
Thanks for sharing this glimpse into twitter speak on the SGM issue.
I grow weary of the two sides to every story retort. Of course there are two sides…and then there is the truth. Truth has no sides…it just is.
Yes, there are not always two sides. I get tired of hearing this crap too.People who think that there are always two sides to a story have no clue, whatsoever…
Can someone please tell me where the “New Spring family of churches” falls on this spectrum of celebrity Christianity? Does anyone have experience with them? Lately we had one local church fall to pieces because the pastor decided he wanted the church to become a “New Spring” church, and he ended up basically driving out all the elderly (who were half of the congregation). We’ve had several new “New Spring” churches pop up around here and they are characterized by rock-band-type music, fuzzy language (that seems to be intensely seeker-focused and yet designed not to set themselves apart from the secular world)…
Just wondering if I’m witnessing the next Church From Hell.
These SGM people are snakes.
Re. “the church from hell,” it is – imo – a direct result of the fact that TAG/PDI/SGM was founded on discipleship movement dogma. Shepherding is a cult, no question.
so while on one level I am sickened by the information that’s becoming public due to the lawsuit, I’m also not surprised… as I am a survivor of shepherding as carried out in various places. I would not be surprised if there are other widespread, systemic problems within SGM, as that seems to be inevitable in such authoritarian groups, no matter who’s running them. (I have seen it before, though what I’m aware of was more in the realm of rampant affairs, sexual predation on adult women, and fleecing members.)
oh, and… a general feeling among members of the “leadership” that they were above reproach and so could do what they wanted, sexually, financially, whatever…
K
Perry Noble’s church has been involved in some very, very bad things. They just settled a lawsuit. You will not believe what they did to this man. Speechless….
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2009/12/rage-at-spring-another-bloggerchurch.html
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/12/12/perry-noble-and-his-pastor-fans-are-full-of-it/
My mind boggles at the idea that you could come up with another ‘side’ to this story that will somehow explain why repeated child abuse was covered up, that will make sense to the reasonable mind. ‘Oh…that explains it!’ will say no-one, ever.
@ Beakerj:
Agreed. But, since they’ve already stated “[t]hat is our responsibility to protect the Church from harm, and that includes a lawsuit against the Church,” they HAVE to come up with “another side.” Even if it is completely fabricated. I fear their “other side” will be more abuse upon the victims.
This is why these “Churches from hell” are so dangerous. As Eagle so beautifully outlined at the beginning of this thread, people fall for these groups for many legitimate reasons. Most of us realize too late just how cultish the system really is. And when you try to leave or even squeak a protest of their treatment, the ensuing intimidation is frightening. That’s why I hold these victims in high regard. It’s not easy to do what they’re doing.
K,
I was particularly interested in the NewSpring story because I am originally from South Carolina (just a few miles from Perry Noble’s home church) and still have family there. It is a vulgar and abusive redneck excuse for a church. I saw one in the late stages of building when I was home for the holidays and asked my well-churched family to spread the word about it!
And I’m really looking forward to seeing the coming update on the NewSpring story!
“Buried In The Noise?”
HowDee YaAll,
Something was wrong. For some time there was this nagging feeling that all things were not right with People Of Destiny, the former name of the church ministry now known as Sovereign Grace Ministries. The year was sometime around the late 80’s to early 90’s. Many of the astute brought their concerns to ministry leadership only to be rebuffed.
I can remember a story about a member, a pillar in the local PDI church that was verbally abusing his wife, we had known her much of her adult life. We expected someone in leadership to listen and address the concern. But when this abuse was brought to the attention of the local church leadership, we were shunned, and suddenly people stopped talking to us. What gives, we asked? Apparently, we were no longer welcome. Apparently, a line had been crossed. We were then watched, asked questions, and expected to ‘ bare our soul’ with those we were ‘assigned’ to, I kid you not! As we were not fully ‘aware’ of protocol at that place and time, we did not do so, nor ‘feel’ the need. Every word we uttered from that moment forward was reported up the ‘chain’.
(eerie)
However, we were fortunate to have had a long standing friend, who was also a member, that invited us over, and told us that there was something very wrong with this church, and with the associated ministry as a whole. Even they could not put their finger on it (at the time). In a nut shell this friend asked us (…loosely translated during the course of the conversation) to “run, don’t walk to he nearest exit!” which we did shortly thereafter. Like many, we never looked back (and never said a thing) until the blogs appeared some four years ago, to tell of similar (or worse) experiences with this church ministry.
(…it was nice at know we weren’t nutz!)
If we were asked to sum up our experience there in a word, it would be the word ‘control’.
Today, Sovereign Grace Ministries is being further ‘exposed’ as a cauldron of pervasive problematic pedophilia, and the charges concerning this ministry are shocking to say the least. Without minimizing the pain and atrocities caused the victims – yet I am naggingly reminded that this is just symptomatic of a larger evil that has been lodged within this ministry’s DNA for some time now.
Now you know that many have been exposing this nefarious narcissistic nocturnal *nemesis for some time;
(* Someone’s nemesis is a person or thing that is difficult for them to defeat.)
yet the name ‘nemesis’ is also related to the Greek word νέμειν [némein], meaning “to give what is due”.
Now with new and pertinent information being revealed, and further concerned witnesses coming forward to give their painful testimony also shortly -before a court of law, is it not long overdue ‘ -to give what is due’ to those who have perpetuated this collusion?
(Do millstones come in assorted sizes and colours? One can only wonder…)
(sigh)
Can today’s SGM lawsuit be summed up in one word?
(Again, one can only wonder…)
(sadface)
Sopy
Sopy
You had courage. Yoyu said something about abuse and then you were shunned. You are one of the few who spoke up and you were abused by a church from hell. Everything that you put up with for your act of truth will be a jewel in your crown in heaven. There are many people who knew something was wrong and never said a word because they wanted to be perceived as “nice” and people who go along with the status quo. They sold their souls and will live with this niggling guilt for the rest of their lives unless they repent.
Sopy-APPLAUSE for your actions. No regrets!
And I just had this brief conversation with Noel.
Me “What they’re saying now on Twitter, Facebook, blogs is ‘You don’t know the other side of the story.”
Noel “Okay, tell me. Do YOU know the other side of the story?”
Me “Yes, there are two sides to the story. There is the rapist’s side and the baby girl’s side. Whose side are you going to take?”
OK, I need to clarify that. Sorry, long week.
And I just had this brief conversation with Noel.
Me “What they’re saying now on Twitter, Facebook, blogs is ‘You don’t know the other side of the story.”
Noel’s answer to that “Okay, tell me. Do YOU know the other side of the story?”
My Answer to that “Yes, there are two sides to the story. There is the rapist’s side and the baby girl’s side. Whose side are you going to take?”
@ Phoenix:
I don’t think the twittering and facebooking mobs know anything, much less any “other side” of a story. BTW – shouldn’t their SGM friends be calling them out on the carpet for gossiping. Oh, sorry, my mistake! I guess it’s just fine to carry on like this if you are actually an SGMer or worshipper thereof (sheesh!)
@ Virginia Knowles: This article makes some good points. Particularly, "multiple witnesses establish credibility." It's going to be difficult to craft "another side of the story" with multiple accounts corroborating the same behavior.
@ Eagle:
“Congratulations Sovereign Grace!! You made the Huffington Post”
Yup. And take a look at what the HuffPo commenters are saying. When conservative evangelical wonkiness hits the real world, the reaction is always the same. And it’s never “Don’t judge them! You’re a sinner too!”
Hot diggity. I have wondered a bit about a church in my community for years, because I’d heard people comment that they were “kind of controlling.” So I just looked on their webpage:
– “We walk in Partnership with Sovereign Grace churches in a grace-based, spirit led, evangelical tradition.”
– “We are currently in the process of joining with Sovereign Grace Ministries to plant a Sovereign Grace Church.”
This church’s website also has some material on CJ Mahaney in 2011 and the “findings” that he had repented and was fit for ministry. Maybe I will stir the pot a bit and email them and see what they have to say about this latest lawsuit.
I guess this would also explain why this church hosted a “Reclaiming Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” seminar where Grudem spoke about 10 years ago. Ugh.
@ Phoenix:
I know I’m completely anonymous to you, but would you please send my virtual hugs to Noel? I lurked on the blog for a long time before gaining the courage to chime in. And I’m not even from SGM. There may be many others reading who are silently cheering her on. I want her to know that there are many of us on her side of the court who either have previous experience with SGM or another abusive ministry. We are only mildly curious as to what the “other story” will be, because we want to see how tall a tale they will tell. I’ve seen “ministries” like them in action, and, oddly, they all operate the same. I’m with her.
dee – deb
These are tuff days with all these ugly stories coming out.
My prayers for these very courageous folks willing to stand against, and reveal, this abuse.
You write…
“We are going to ban the word “bitterness” as a critique because we are bored.”
Great idea.
I’ve been called “Bitter” and a few other names. BUT – they never answer the questions.
Today I understand “This Name Calling” as a “Tactic” – A way to change the subject…
By attacking the messenger…. So they don’t have to answer the charges or the questions. 😉
So, these days, when the name calling begins, I know the debate is over.
And they have conceded. They are waving the white flag of surrender. 😉
Because they have NO more “biblical” words to continue and their beliefs are challenged. 😉
Thought you might enjoy this “Name Calling” as much as I have.
Today – In this one reply, to many of my comments on this post, I am called by Eric…
1 – either very hurt by “church” leadership – OR…
2 – so deceived that you pick the scriptures apart to prove…
3 – your mis-guided theology.
3 – Un-loving
4 – Un-biblical
5 – your comments consistently reveal a haughty and “Know better than anyone else” spirit.”
6 – you either are deceived or
7 – intentionally trying to cause conflict.
8 – Amos, you have Love in your name but display none in your heart or understanding.
BUT – Glory to God – This God fearing Man who dis-agrees with me…
Ended the comment with these words of encouragement…
“Please realize that although the words that I have written may prick,
they are *written in love* to open your eyes to Truth.”
BUT – they never answer the questions… Hmmm?
http://toddrhoades.com/i-dont-trust-pastors/#comments
“Eric January 18, 2013 at 11:15 am Amos
“Reading your writings brings sadness to me that you have been “either very hurt by “church” leadership” some where along the line or you are “so deceive” that you pick the scriptures apart to prove your mis-guided theology.”
“Yes there are mis-guided leaders but you paint every church as un-Biblical by having a pastor. That is un-loving and un-biblical to do so.”
“The way you write your comments consistently reveal a haughty and “Know better than anyone else” spirit. The words you use reveal the heart of the writer; i.e. “thingy”, “Hmmmm”, etc. Amos, you have Love in your name but display none in your heart or understanding.”
“I will not respond further to your writings as I would be guilty of the same at this point. Please realize that although the words that I have written may prick, they are written in love to open your eyes to Truth.”
Yeah – Banning “Bitter” “Bitterness” is a good start…
Why don’t they just answer the questions?
Eagle,
HowDee!
You are sure welcome for the encouragement.
You matter.
Actually, thanks for the complement. I am honored.
My prayers have included you ever since your ‘bright face’ appeared @TWW. I hope that they have helped. (Yes, you have been through alot!)
You have ‘also’ done alot for so many!
b bless’d!
(smiley face)
Sopy
@ anon 1:
Well stated, anon 1. In tying some of your thoughts together, I am wondering if the growing reality of online documentation by citizen bloggers is part of what is turning the same-old same-old “plausible deniability” by self-protective leaders into “IMplausible deniability” when so many more details become crowd-sourced and few can be “scrubbed.”
It is not the same old world, but one in which there are more lights turned toward exposing the darkness. What a year 2012 was for that! It’s sad that there is such darkness in the churches, but I am more hopeful that exposure to the light will bring about change. What if we moved from all this intervention to an eventual place of prevention, so such horrific things are stopped before they can happen?
@ Sopwith: Thanks so much for telling us a bit of your story.
You know, I had friends who left in the TAG days because they felt that there were problems even then. So… that’s the 1970s.
I strongly believe that things were really off from the get-go, back when they were meeting in the Christ Church (D.C.) basement to pray.
@ A. Amos Love:
Maybe you’re not *bitter*. Maybe you’re only *contentious*. I just came across this quote on how leaders should deal with *contentious* people like you. :/
“A contentious person is one whose humor inclines him to stir up disputes, and does not care what becomes of the truth. Of this description are all who, without any necessity, abolish good and useful customs — raise disputes respecting matters that are not doubtful — who do not yield to reasonings — who cannot endure that any one should be above them. Of this description, also, are those (akoinwnhtoi) would be singular persons who, from a foolish affectation, aim at some new and unusual way of acting. Such persons Paul does not reckon worthy of being replied to, inasmuch as contention is a pernicious thing, and ought, therefore, to be banished from the Churches. By this he teaches us, that those that are obstinate and fond of quarrelling, should rather be restrained by authority than confuted by lengthened disputations. ”
Author of quote had initials J. C. But not Jesus Christ…… Though some may confuse them.
Phoenix
Any church leader who particpated in such abuse should have a very hard time looking at themselves in the mirror. That includes any of the spouses who are “supporting” such sick examples of male headship. Those men are perverted and I am deeply suspicious that something else was going on behind the scences. There is no person in their right mind who could support such horror in the church unless they, on some level, think it is normal. And if they think this stuff is “normal,” I wonder what else was going on. Cue Elvis’ great hit Suspicious Mind link.
“My mind boggles at the idea that you could come up with another ‘side’ to this story that will somehow explain why repeated child abuse was covered up, that will make sense to the reasonable mind. ‘Oh…that explains it!’ will say no-one, ever.”
I know. And unthinking people will say, Oh that sounds fair. But they fail to recognize these guys have had pulpits for years, spoke at conferences, wrote books and had thousands waiting with bated breath for their words. They HAVE HAD the stage for “their side” for years.
That was one reason I thought the comment about bringing “balance” was so ridiculous. The victims are the ones who have had no balance or a side to speak out on all these years.
@ A. Amos Love:
Asked “In the Bible…
Did anyone ever “Attend Church?”
Answer: No.
I can think of one or two, who “Daily also continuing with one accord in the temple, breaking also at every house bread, they were partaking of food in gladness and simplicity of heart,”
My quick, untheological summary: Formal/informal meetings or meeting places — OPTIONAL; Continuing daily with one accord, breaking bread, gladness, and simplicity of heart– MANDATORY.
“Well stated, anon 1. In tying some of your thoughts together, I am wondering if the growing reality of online documentation by citizen bloggers is part of what is turning the same-old same-old “plausible deniability” by self-protective leaders into “IMplausible deniability” when so many more details become crowd-sourced and few can be “scrubbed.””
Thanks Brad. Here is the irony as I see from my mega church consulting days…the same vehicle which propelled them to celebrity status is also being used now for their accountability. So they were big time into this communication vehicle because it was making them popular or famous in their coveted circles. And it happens quickly. Not like the old days when you had to pay your dues for years. Really young guys are making a name for themselves. That can be a curse in the long run because you gotta keep up that momentum.
So how to handle the same vehicle being used to air the stuff you have worked hard to keep under the radar? Everyone has their tactic. Driscoll and Noble types try to paint us as losers. Some of the other celebs redefine gossip to cover blogging. Some are narcissistic zero’s. Others are in their moms basement eating doritos. You can hear the arrogance in their words to try and marginalize anyone who questions or analyzes their very public words they are paid to write and speak.
Here is what I think surprises most people about the celebs if they have the opportunity to see it. They do not do well with open 2 way communication where they are questioned. Their skills are oratorical which is one sided. It is what they do: perform to a crowd.
So, consequently, more and more people who are paying attention are finding them not as quite the same as their stage persona. And it is even more shocking to discover how thin skinned most of the are when questioned.
The smart ones never bother to interact unless it is staged and vetted (part of my job a time ago) and work to stay “above” the masses but their fellow travellors/stage hands do give us an inside look in many cases if we are paying attention.
“It is not the same old world, but one in which there are more lights turned toward exposing the darkness. What a year 2012 was for that! It’s sad that there is such darkness in the churches, but I am more hopeful that exposure to the light will bring about change. What if we moved from all this intervention to an eventual place of prevention, so such horrific things are stopped before they can happen?”
You know Brad, I tend to be a bit radical but I think it is based on my experience around the mega industrial complex and what I have seen on the internet and then blogging over the last 10 years. I think it will change when enough people exit the institutions and say, wait, we ARE the church. The nones will hook up more and more for fellowship as they find one another. The money for the institutions will start drying up…it already is and you can hear the fear in their voices if you listen closely. People ask, then why are they still building, planning,etc? Because that is what they know to do and they are every bit as addicted to showing “success” as any business out there . Everyone assumes they are smart. They just know how to work the crowd but it is getting harder and harder because the crowd just does not have it to the extent they did a few years back.
I think we will see a big change concerning the face of Christianity in the South perhaps in the next 20 years. That is one reason I am s delighted about Matt Redmond’s book. Let us just live our every day lives as believers. Not as a people who think they have to build big buildings or support a profane but popular pastor, or be vain about our church or movement as being the true one, or run around judging the world, etc. (WE can still have opinions!) We will start to stand out like boring sore thumbs and that is a good thing because we will simply love people and apologize for the other thing that claims to represent Jesus Christ on earth.
It blew me away to finally realize that when we read “kingdom of God” in the bible it is talking about believers in the here and now. Believers are to represent God’s kingdom on earth. That means we love justice, love people, protect people as we can, stand up for them, etc. We are the ones who are to stay behind and nurse people during a plague. that does not make us pious. And it sounds easier said than done, I know. But it is a far cry from the celebrity Christianity we see all around us today. The celebs would be wisked off to protect them from the plague because they are God’s man and too important to the people. I think that thinking is going to change. (I am basing that on most mega’s have a policy that high level people cannot fly together or drive together in case there is an accident. They think 2 or more leaders dying would wipe out the church or put it in chaos. That is man centered and it means it is really NOT a church)
@ anon 1:
That was beautiful. I am learning so much from you all. I googled Matt Redmond:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/matthew-b-redmond-the-god-of-the-mundane
Now I want to read that book.
@ anon 1:
“I think we will see a big change concerning the face of Christianity in the South perhaps in the next 20 years.”
I heard today that there is “a megachurch on every corner” down South (spec. the Atlanta metro area). Is this an overstatement? As was discussed in a previous thread, there are (to my knowledge) few to zero megachurches up north. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Tim Keller’s church and that’s in Manhattan.
Frankly southern church culture sounds very foreign and a little disturbing to me as a Yankee.
“Merkey Waters?”
@ numo:
HowDee!
Thanx!
TAG dayz?, …your dating yourself…
(grin)
“The Ghost Of C.J’s Past?”
Maybe your friends were some of the lucky ones. My whole young adult church group was literally sucked into the vortex of the makings of Covenant Life Church in its very beginnings, never saw many of them ever again.
(strange)
Has SGM parked a few pedophiles in the church religious instruction classroom next door in a church near you?
(stranger yet)
SGM has moved right off the weird-O-meter, huh?
Dunt, Dunt, Dunt-Dunt…
(really, really, strange, huh…)
(Wherez da in-fright barf bag?)
I declare, ole Ceege is bizzy in hiz Tennesseeean basement digg’in dem holes…
Wherez dat proverbial rascally rabbit when ya needs um?
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
—
P.S. Numo, Hope youz do’in ok!
“Parishioner’s Panic: Just Attack Perception Thinking?”
HowDee YaAll,
One wonders…thanks to these negligent SGM pastors, Mommy can barely sit through a sermon without having a panic attack thinking, “are my kids safe?”
R they?
hmmm…
Susan Burke talks about the profile of a monstrous militant military sexual predictor who, in one swift swoop, gobbles up a young woman’s life and bright future and leaves her mental and possibly physically impaired, and that, possibly for the rest of her natural days? For what, because she wanted to faithfully serve her country? (Burkes comments are made with glaring graphic examples.)
Haven’t certain individuals in SGM done the same? For what, because a women wanted to educate her children through the scriptures in a ‘safe’ church environment? (This lawsuit is replete with glaring graphic examples.)
Church ‘to many’, has ‘now’ become a very scary place.
Is it any wonder?
…do not pass go, do not put $200.00 in the collection plate?
hmmm…
could b.
What is it going to take to restore the confidence of the many taken in by SGM’s cosmetic ‘humility’ and brutally damaged by nefarious actions of intent, conspiracy, and neglect?
One can only wonder.
Certainly it’ll take a bit more than a swing after da bell, huh?
(sadface)
Sopy
What does TAG stand for? I know PDI is People of Destiny International and SGM is Sovereign Grace Ministries but I don’t know about TAG.
@ anonymous: TAG = Take and Give.
That was long before they morphed into PDI, let alone SGM.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
My thoughts exactly! anon 1’s comments are very helpful and encouraging, and Matt Redmond’s book looks to be outstanding.
@ Sopwith: hey there, Sopy!
I’m doing OK; thanks for asking.
As for those friends, yes, it was a long time ago – I’m “old.” (Not really, but hey.) Sadly, I still have friends who are insiders at CLC and FX- “sadly” because I *so* wish they’d get out of those places!!! (Just in case my SGM friends are reading this, well, you know who you are. And I’m very concerned for you.)
You might be interested to know that That Church (which kicked me out a little over 10 years ago) had its origins at Christ Church at about the same time that TAG was meeting in the basement…
@ Sopwith:
Now that’s scary!
fwiw, my friends at FX kept inviting me to visit, attend, etc. back in the mid-80s. I visited a home group one time, and was VERY freaked out by it – the people all seemed like they were clones of each other; the women reminded me of The Stepford Wives. I wanted to bail on the meeting about 5 minutes in, but there was no way I could have done that without attracting quite a bit of attention. I guess you could say that it was eye-opening – I *knew* that I didn’t want to be a part of either CLC or FX, no matter how hard people tried to talk me into it.
@ anon 1:
I like what I’ve seen thus far from Matt Redmond. And I’ve been working on reviewing Lance Ford’s book, *UnLeader*, which critiques the conventional church-leadership-runs-[and-ruins]-the-machine CEO/business model and then both tells and shows how it looks to have a non-hierarchical approach that emphasizes disciples as *followers who serve* — not “leaders” and not even “servant-leaders.”
http://www.amazon.com/Unleader-Reimagining-Leadership-Why-Must/dp/0834128853/
Which is to say, the reverse of what Dee has shared in her article [Thanks, Dee!] about doing it wrong, there are more real-world, kingdom-here/now writers who give us the positive process to (re)construct things the way they truly should be.
And I think you’re right that the “Nones” will continue finding each other and clustering together in fellowships that are following Jesus and not a celebrity.
And I like what my friend “Brother Maynard” says about what this lifestyle is. He talks about how the conventional way is “Live your life. Share your faith.” It splits our identity from our activity, and divides discipleship from evangelism in ways that isolate us from others. A missional order is “Live your faith, share your life.” It keeps our identity and activity unified.
@ numo:
Thanks Numo!
Skid Guards: “The SGM Pastor Is A Trained Professional?”
(short of…)
theyz burn’in a mean popcorn…
(grin)
hmmm…
Ahem! Yet, I have nothing to offer but pain, toil, tears and sweat.
What?!?
We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have behind us many, many long months & years of grievous struggle and of suffering. We have yet before us many more long months of struggle and of suffering.
You ask, what is our policy?
I can say this with unmistakeable clarity: It is to wage war, by scripture, by prayer and by heavenly petition, by blog, by word of mouth, and by human law courts if deemed necessary, with all our might and with all the strength that Almighty God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous religious tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of the Reformed Church.
That is our policy.
You ask, what is our aim?
I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all religious tyranny, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no lasting ‘safe’ Reformed Church.
Let that be realized; no survival for the Reformed Church, no survival for all that the Reformed Church has stood for, no survival for the urge and impulse of the ages, that the Church that bears Christ’s name will move forward towards its goal.
Christ, in all of us, the hope of glory…
But let us take up our task with buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men!
The gates of hell shall surely not prevail…
At this time I feel entitled to claim the aid of all, and I say, “come then, let us go forward together with our united strength until ‘the SGM religious tyrant’ is vanquished and finds no place in the American pulpit, the American home, and any American religious house of worship.”
“Here I stand, I can do no other!”
Come, Lord Jesus!
Sopy
@Eagle and BeenThereDoneThat,
It would be my delight to pass your encouraging words along to Noel and through her to the other plaintiffs. She is one of my heroes and her friendship is one of the greatest gifts I’ve been given. And we have a hell of a lot of fun together.
You are both part of a really encouraging community here!
“I heard today that there is “a megachurch on every corner” down South (spec. the Atlanta metro area). Is this an overstatement? As was discussed in a previous thread, there are (to my knowledge) few to zero megachurches up north. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Tim Keller’s church and that’s in Manhattan.
Frankly southern church culture sounds very foreign and a little disturbing to me as a Yankee.”
Hester, Two of the most influential mega churches came out of Chicago and Calif. Willow Creek and Saddleback. They sort of set the tone for the industrial complex. The South was a bit slower to adapt but once they did….watch out.
I spent every summer of my life up North as a kid so I am a bit familiar and yes the religious culture up there is quite different. I can remember as a kid being astonished I could buy stuff on Sundays! Of course you can now but that gives you some idea of how ingrained it is in the culture here. That is changing. but there is a church on most corners. I crack up when small towns in the South actually have a 1st and 2nd Baptist church.
David Wilkerson started what would be called a mega church in Times Sq. He wrote, Cross and Switchblade.
And yes, we are weird. :o)
beenthere,
Thanks for the link to the IM blog post by Matt Redmon. I am assuming since is in B’ham and speaking of “Radical” he is referring to David Platt. I get calls all the time from folks still hanging out in the mega complex world asking me about the lastest gurus because someone said they had to read the book and do it, too. (Always the latest thing. Back in 2004, Rob Bell was all the rage in those circles and everyone had to have Nooma CD’s)
It is always the latest thing. I got worn out not only with that but the thin skinned celebs who played a part. It was and is all fake. And no one will ever convince me different no matter how hard they rebuke me. In fact the one constant is they all start looking alike to me when I strip away their particular bent whether it is Redical, Christian Hedonism, PDL, etc, etc.
All they have done is take market branding tactics and applied them to themselves using Jesus.
“Live your faith, share your life.” It keeps our identity and activity unified.”
This is beautiful.
@ Phoenix:
I suddenly became tongue-tied (finger-tied? brain tied?) when I read your comment. I wasn’t expecting that, and feel so honored. I imagine your friends feel vulnerable right now, but I feel incredible admiration for them. Tell them not to listen to any negative chatter in the social media. There are so many here who would feel proud to stand beside them, to laugh with them, to cry with them, to offer a word of encouragement, or just to reassure them that they’re not alone. Our hearts are broken for them. (And, sometimes we, too, feel angry and snarky because of it.) Thank them for speaking up, so that, hopefully, others won’t have to experience what they have. I believe them.
And thank you to Dee and Deb for allowing me to be a part of this wonderful community. I am learning a lot. I feel supported by all of you. I wish these plaintiffs had your hands to hold 20 or so years ago. I’m glad I have them now.
anon 1 wrote:
Your comment made me think of this visual which illustrates the point nicely: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=525269034173214&set=a.244903342209786.71434.212514318782022&type=1
It’s from facebook so my apologies if not everyone can view it.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Yes. This.
@ anon 1:
“Two of the most influential mega churches came out of Chicago and Calif. Willow Creek and Saddleback.”
Whoops, I suppose I meant “no megachurches in New England.” I know there are megachurches in the Midwest and I know the culture there is very different from both New England and the South because my entire family is Midwestern. What was the church in Chicago?
“I crack up when small towns in the South actually have a 1st and 2nd Baptist church.”
That’s funny because one of the rural towns in my corner of CT actually had four Baptist churches (1st, 2nd, 3rd and one with a locational name) until quite recently when 3rd and locational-name became too small to support themselves and merged. 1st and 2nd are still fair-sized and one of them has a school.
The trouble with numbered Baptist churches around here is they don’t always post their denominational affiliation outside, so you never know what you’re going to find (unless they have a woman pastor in which case they’re probably ABC). In this particular case I know 2nd is pretty wonky conservative, because my friend’s mom was proposed to by a total stranger there (God had told him to marry her).
Addendum @ anon 1:
Oops, I see now you said the church in Chicago was Willow Creek. Sorry.
anon1
I grew up in the Boston area. The closest thing to a mega church in the New England are back then was Park Street Church, although Tremont Temple (Baptist) had its run in the sun as well. Sometimes I miss the camaraderied of that area. Most churches were small. You had baked bean suppers and people knew each other.
Duty Calls: “Arm N’ Flesh Shall Fail, Yet The Gospel Armor N’ Prayer Shall Not?”
HowDee YaAll,
“…I am frankly disgusted by the allegations, which, if proven to be true, will go down in evangelical history as one of the most despicable, documented examples of a debased church leadership.” -Dee
SGM: Is merging abusive shepherding practices with the fatal activity of pushing up ugly tulips, O.K.? A forced hybrid? For what? Mark Dever’s proverbial neo-calvinistic Frankenstein on da loose, perhaps?
howz dat working out?
(puking… excuse me…)
Ahem!
Yet, why O’ why do I continually hear da song “Stand By Your SGM Man” coming from a certain Southern Baptist Convention? Shouldn’t I be hearing: “Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus, Ye Solider Of Da Cross?”
How bad does a “false” Self-Appointed Apostle have to get anyway before da SBC realizes it has a bad “hand”?
…put a quarter in da jukebox?
hmmm…
Certainly some misguided pastor folk have given the church in general a black eye.
(fade to black…)
Forget about Jesus, He has been viral’d out of the equation.
(sadface)
” Z heaven, Unt Z earth, shall pass away… but my vords shall not pass away…” – Jesus
The angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner dat repents, is anybudy listening?
Sopy
—
P.S. Dee, thanks ever so much fer da post, n’ all youze doin’, I would be happy ta polish your armor any day. B bless’d! Yahoooooooooooooooo!
hum, hum, hum.. Stand up, Stand up fer Jesus, Ye soldiers of da cross…
(all together now…)
“Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross;
Lift high His royal banner, it must not suffer loss.
From victory unto victory His army shall He lead,
Till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, the solemn watchword hear;
If while ye sleep He suffers, away with shame and fear;
Where’er ye meet with evil, within you or without,
Charge for the God of battles, and put the foe to rout.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, the trumpet call obey;
Forth to the mighty conflict, in this His glorious day.
Ye that are brave now serve Him against unnumbered foes;
Let courage rise with danger, and strength to strength oppose.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, stand in His strength alone;
The arm of flesh will fail you, ye dare not trust your own.
Put on the Gospel armor, each piece put on with prayer;
Where duty calls or danger, be never wanting there.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, each soldier to his post,
Close up the broken column, and shout through all the host:
Make good the loss so heavy, in those that still remain,
And prove to all around you that death itself is gain.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, the strife will not be long;
This day the noise of battle, the next the victor’s song.
To those who vanquish evil a crown of life shall be;
They with the King of Glory shall reign eternally.” *
Yahoo!
;~)
—
* Hymn Words: George Duffield, Jr., 1858:
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/t/standufj.htm
Dave AA
Thanks a bunch – “Maybe you’re only *contentious* – AAHHH!!! – The wounds of a friend. 😉
And I Just hit the like button – When you write…
“Continuing daily with one accord, breaking bread, gladness, and simplicity of heart– MANDATORY.”
Speaking of no mega churches in New England. How come very large Cathedral type Catholic churches were never considered mega churches? Aren’t there Catholic churches there where a 1000 might come for mass years back? I attended a HUGE mass in Boston back in the late 80’s but the name of the church escapes me. It was very big and beautiful and packed to the gills.
Estelle, thanks. Illustrations are powerful.
@ anon 1: Just because a lot of people go to Mass at a specific church does not mean that they are members of that parish.
It’s a very different culture compared to the kind of evangelicalism that has spawned megas.
Dropping this cartoon in here as very relevant and timely: An abusive apology.
anon1
Thank you for yoru comment. I was answering for megas within the Protestant tradition. There are many large Catholc churches in Boston. When I was a little girl, the local Catholc church on my street attracted hundreds, if not a thousand, attendees.
I don’t even think this needs any commentary.
http://www.nakedpastor.com/2013/01/17/the-kiss-of-judas-and-religion/
@ dee: I hear you. The thing is, people often like to go to different churches, depending on the Mass schedule. I’ve known folks who liked to do do that just to change things up a bit, or if the time at another church worked better than those at their parish church on a given weekend.
Of course, music is also an attraction – and back in the day there were lots and lots of folk Masses. Not ev ery parish did them; many people didn’t approve of the music.
@ Phoenix:
Powerful image. I think it applies to a lot of church/ministry leaders….
@ anon 1:
“How come very large Cathedral type Catholic churches were never considered mega churches? Aren’t there Catholic churches there where a 1000 might come for mass years back? I attended a HUGE mass in Boston back in the late 80′s but the name of the church escapes me. It was very big and beautiful and packed to the gills.”
Like I’ve said on here before, the Catholic churches I’ve been to have always been packed, and not just for high mass / holy days either. If the cathedral in my area did not have a parking lot in back, you would not be able to park within a block of the church for 5:00 mass, and even with the parking lot there is nowhere to park on the street out front.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
It’s instructive to note that this behaviour is not confined to prominent and gifted entrepreneurs in charge of large, nominally christian followings. A couple of years ago, Lesley and I met an elderly lady in a local church house group who expressed an interest in pursuing God alongside us. Well, we – as nones – were looking for exactly that. As she had just suffered a bereavement, we gave her a lot of time and space, including tolerating a great deal of disrespect, selfishness and just plain rudeness. But this behaviour never changed with time. Finally, at the end of last year, she said things that I considered to have decisively crossed a line of acceptability, and I addressed this directly. As a result, and realising that she will not get any more free attention and company from us without a change in her speech and behaviour, she has stopped trying to contact our home and (we subsequently discovered) begun spreading rumours among whomever will listen to her that our marriage is in trouble and she is “giving us space” until we sort ourselves out. Though it has to be said that few people are listening to her, because she has alienated so many since moving into the area.
Those of you who have experienced abusive church leadership and cultures will recognise many parallels here. A very high degree of self-righteousness, projection of her own issues onto us, vilifying us for attempting to address her speech and behaviour, and many more that are visible in details with which I will not bore you. Though in her case, she has no following, no influence and few friends.
My point is simply this. Ungodly and selfish people attach themselves to the christian community in many different settings, to take what they can get from it. Whenever I look at a successful pyramid marketeer who has built a large monument to himself, disguised as “a church” (mega or otherwise) using a thin veneer of orthodox doctrine and respectable christian vocabulary – from now on, I will simply see a needy and lonely old lady, sacrificing anyone and everyone to meet a need she can never satisfy, because she refuses to satisfy it God’s way.
anon 1 wrote:
I once heard a preacher describe the circumstances surrounding the estate of some elderly relatives of his, which was being administered after they had died. The cottage in which they had lived was surrounded by farmland and they had been paying ground rent to the farmer for many years. But it turned out that, for all that time, he had been collecting rent to which he was not entitled – he had never owned the land on which their cottage was built! It was common land. It just appeared to be his based on his usage of the land around them and they had never thought to question it.
In the same way, institutional church organisations and traditional 5-point “reformation”-invented structures have been demanding the loyalty of believers for centuries. But I don’t believe they have ever had the right to do so, nor do they own the scriptures, nor is the Holy Spirit their own personal vassal. Jesus invested his authority in his church, but I – and my fellow nones, in their millions – reject the idea that he ever ceded his authority to anyone, or that he did a spectacular volte-face and authorised one select sub-group to rule over other believers.
I agree that the “nones” will increasingly find themselves in meaningful fellowship with one another. I just hope we have the good sense not to try to organise ourselves together… again…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick, thank you for pointing out the difference between investing vs. ceding authority. Gives me much to ponder this a.m.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I’m so sorry you’ve had that experience. Personality disorders are certainly not limited to celebrity preachers, and it’s very difficult to deal with them on a personal level.
I consider myself a none. On certain issues I think I even lean toward agnosticism. I wish you well with your faith journey.
Anon 1 – Nick Bulbeck
Wow – two excellent comments. Much agreement when you write…
Anon 1 -“I think it will change when enough people **exit the institutions** and say, wait, **we ARE the church.** The nones will hook up more and more for fellowship as they find one another. The money for the institutions will start drying up…it already is and you can hear the fear in their voices if you listen closely.”
Nick – “I agree that the “nones” will increasingly find themselves in meaningful fellowship with one another. I just hope we have the good sense **not to try to organise ourselves together… again…**”
I remained much too long in “The Corrupt Religious System” 🙁
Hopeing – praying, it would change, but it never does…
I vote – **exit the institutions**
I vote – Please, Pretty Please, **Do NOT organize ourselves. Again.**
And, Jesus didn’t reform “The Corrupt Religious System” of His day.
He left it…
And “Called Out” a bunch from that system – *Into* a Relationship with Him.
Ekklesia = “Called out ones” – And Jesus is the best.
Today, I even question *The Reformation.” Was it good? – Was it bad?
Oh, there were some benefits for following Jesus, following the scriptures, But…
All they did was RE – Form “The Corrupt Religious System” of their day.
It’s still “The System” and it’s still “Corrupt.” Man is still running the show.
You can change a few “Titles.”
Presidents of Denominations instead of Popes.
Pastors instead of Priests.
You can change the way they dress.
Suits and ties, or tee shirts, instead of fancy robes, and pretentious pointed hats.
But, It’s still “The System” and it’s still “Corrupt.” And, man is still running the show.
And Jesus, He is the only “ONE” with the Title Shepherd.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Deleterious Dilemma: ” * TWSIK Or Not To TWSIK, That Is The Question?”
“..,there is something deeply evil and he (C.j. Mahaney) is at the centre of it” -LynnT
HowDee YaAll,
When TSHTF, do you really want your faith reserves locked up in a church that is about to have their ‘confidence scheme’ devalued by a federal court? Right now they are on the ‘abuse’ trail. What happens when an official audit is demanded (in a perfect world -snicker-) opening their books to public scrutiny? Their testimony is not worth the proverbial paper it is written on. Have they ‘cooked their books’ also?
hmmm…
Reform SGM?, you gotz to be kidding!
Go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect the money in the offering plate,
…and send the illustrious Mark Dever, a bill for the failure of his ‘theology’ to ‘reform’ *TWSIK.
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
S“㋡”py
___
* “TWSIK=The worst sinner I know”. the (TM) of one Charles Joseph Mahaney.
Whether a church is a “mega” cannot be based on how many people go there, as “mega” is the prefix which means “million” (“kilo” means thousand)! Rather, the only “mega” at a so called “megachurch” is the budget and the salary and benefit package the pastor receives. That is why Catholic churches are not “megas”, even though thousands may attend. The pastor has a vow of poverty and does not receive a huge salary and benefit package! And his power over the parish is severely limited, where as most “megachurch” pastors are essentially dictators who control everything.
I will not attend a church where the pastor controls everything. It usually starts with controlling who gets “lay leadership” or “elder” positions, either overtly or by controlling the nominating process. A better model is that the pastor stays out of the functions of choosing leaders, budgeting, etc., and lets the laity do that. If they are not considered competent to do those functions, get them some training!!!
@ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:
My definition of a mega church is size related but not number specific. Does the lead/senior pastor(s) know the membership? He should know the family name of nearly everyone. (95%+) And recognize their children. And know by first name over half of the congregation. Preferably more.
If this is not the case then the senior pastor(s) is too insulated from the congregation by size and the church needs to split. Or get a new pastor.
anon 1 wrote:
Don’t you know the more “Authority” (i.e. POWER) the LESS Responsibility?
Absolute POWER = ZERO Responsibility. Just ask Caesar Gaius Caligula, Caesar Domitian, Caesar Commodus, Caesar Euglabius, Baba Saddam, Uday ibn Saddam, Idi Amin Dada, or Kim Jong-Il.
Deb wrote:
HUMBLY, of course.
anon 1 wrote:
They’re ROMISH. That’s why.
“Don’t you know the more “Authority” (i.e. POWER) the LESS Responsibility?”
That is it exactly. And they do it by having many “layers” of sychophants who fall on their swords. Sometimes not voluntarility, either. I call it their “non spiritual coverings” :o)
Wow Nick, my current pastor said something along those lines. “God didn’t give instructions on church buildings or lists of laws or the hierarchy or even distinctives of dogma”. One of the elders at my former church said that I should read their doctrines and bylaws to understand a new church, but my current pastor said they only have it because they are a legal and civic entity, and he said not to read it (or rather not to memorize it.).
Hester, the closest thing to a mega church in Connecticut is the Living Word in West Haven. We went there once, and my husband almost gagged on the fakery. The pastor said he turned over all his belongings to the church, and that we should too. OMG! You gotta be kidding.
The thing about Catholic Churches, it doesn’t matter what you believe or how you live, because as long as you go to church on Christmas and Easter, and as long as you put a little in the envelopes (you can just mail your dues, I mean donation) you would be considered a good Catholic. Going to church every week, and the reason why these masses are so packed, old people can check off the boxes and get assurance of not going to Purgatory. And as long as they send their kids to church, they would also get their free pass to Heaven. Easy!
@ Velvet:
“Hester, the closest thing to a mega church in Connecticut is the Living Word in West Haven. We went there once, and my husband almost gagged on the fakery. The pastor said he turned over all his belongings to the church, and that we should too. OMG! You gotta be kidding.”
Lived in CT my whole life and never heard of ’em. Never heard them mentioned by any of my celebrity pastor-obsessed friends either. I agree with your “gotta be kidding” assessment!
@ Phoenix:
Phoenix – I am in South Carolina too – that’s why I have noticed New Spring’s sudden rise here, and the corresponding ugliness.
dee wrote:
Again, “Erotic Flagellation”, a popular kink among upper-class & “bourgeois” Victorians. I think this guy was kinky as hell and doing it under cover of Divine authority.
VelvetVoice wrote:
He probably did. However, he probably neglected to mention that the church and the pastor (himself) were one and the same. (He turned all his belongings over to himself, and you should turn your belongings over to him. Or God Will Punish You.)
This is a really interesting conversation, as it frequently happens at TWW. A lot of different points being addressed. After reading the whole series of comments I am not very sure how to follow it… But let me ask a question, which has been in my mind for a while.
At my current church we often have songs from Sovereign Grace Music. I noticed it several months ago just by reading the copyright notices. At the time I knew about some of the issues at SGM thanks to TWW, so it got my attention.
I have never had direct contact with any SGM church, so initially I thought that those problems may have been “momentary” issues, things that happened because, let’s say, at that moment and time there were bad people in that church messing around. But as more and more issues are being brought to light, it seems to me that something smells very bad and that the issues may be consequences of the SGM institution being wrong at its very core.
I recently checked online to see if Sovereign Grace Music are related in any way to SGM and, as you probably already know, they are.
The question is that I don’t feel too comfortable with those songs any more. I am not questioning the sincerity of whoever wrote them but, knowing all that I now know, my gut reaction is against the songs. And considering that my church has to pay copyright fees to legally sing them, I understand that that’s money from my congregation going to SGM pockets.
Besides, recently I got the feeling that some of the lyrics may focus on points which, I’m guessing, are very strongly emphasised in Neo-Calvinist theology. I’m a bit torn on this as some of those points may not be necessarily wrong, but I found it a bit disturbing in children songs, especially in the way those ideas are communicated in the lyrics.
What do you think? Honestly, I’m struggling a bit with this and, at times, I think I may be overreacting and a bit unreasonable. However, I think that the best is always to be honest with yourself, something that was very useful when I left a church with its own serious issues and my feeling now is not very different to back then.
“He probably did. However, he probably neglected to mention that the church and the pastor (himself) were one and the same. (He turned all his belongings over to himself, and you should turn your belongings over to him. Or God Will Punish You.)”
Bingo!
@Walter Romero,
Thank you for joining in. I’m sure you’re correct that the songs emphasize Neo-Calvinism, because that is CJ’s current marketing strategy and NOTHING is published that doesn’t advance it. I think you’re also correct that the writers of the songs are genuinely gifted and well-intentioned people; but the ones I know of; Bob Kauflin, Steve and Vikki Cook, Mark Altrogge; are also in the very thick of SGM and are CJ worshippers. In my harsh and snarky opinion they have prostituted their God-given gifts, especially Kauflin.
In addition, those songs are yeast. In more modern terms, red flag! And the money your church pays is going to pay legal defense for SGM and for CJ himself in the lawsuit. If I hear you correctly, your gut is telling you to leave that church. Listen to it. In any case, you should approach leadership with your concerns and their response will indicate what your next step should be. Courage, brother!
Martin, I would not consider the songs a red flag, though I’m sure many will disagree. I lead worship and have used songs knowingly from churches who teach things I disagree with, as long as the theology in the song was something I could get behind. The fees payed to use the songs are not high at all and spread out over all the various sings your church uses- likely very little mony is going to SGM from your church.
Now if the songs are representing a theology that bothers you, then that should become a red flag, but my personal feeling is that a song rises or stands on its own, not the faith or practice of the creator of said song. For examples, Handel’s Messiah is glorious and worshipful, but as I understand it he was not really a man of faith.
Now I think I would struggle as a worship leader to incorporate anything new from SGM knowing what’s going on because it just makes my stomach hurt, but I don’t think I’d want to stop doing existing songs that the congregation is familiar with and likes. But that would be my personal call- I would respect someone making a different one.
Martin, my worthless opinion is that they are probably loaded with “sin sniffing stuck at the cross” theology. Or the neo Reformed definition of God’s Sovereignty. I am simply assuming this as I am not familiar with them and have stayed away from any teaching that is SGM for 6 years. I do know they are being used at SBTS.
I would be concerned about the money though even if a small amount. Why help pay for evil? In my worthless opinion there is so much great music out there with no copyright penned by sanctified believers long ago with no purpose but to pour out their love for Christ with no thought of compensation…… why bother with the Christian music industry which has become just as bad.
After decades of singing SGM songs in SGM franchises that I used to be a member of, I can’t bring myself to listen to them anymore, much less sing them. They are very much promoting SGM’s version of theology and doctrine, you can be sure of that. That’s something that they used to brag about from the pulpit – how SGM produces “theologically sound” songs, unlike most of the other songwriters out there. Gag.
For an eye-opener, compare their early songs with their later ones. What a swing in theology!
@ Phoenix:
“Ladies, don’t be surprised if you are threatened with a lawsuit unless you remove this. Parts of this story have been repeatedly posted and removed under threat.”
Why? What is so wrong with someone telling their story? If it’s not true then SGM and their cronies should have nothing to worry about.
OK. That was just freaky how quickly Phoenix’s comment disappeared. I fully understand, Dee and Deb, the predicament you’re in to cover your legal bases, and I fully support it. But, may I just say that the title of this post was spot on? Church from hell, indeed!
I completely understand as well and I support and trust Dee and Deb.
@ VelvetVoice: Some people think that way; many don’t.
And you could apply that line of reasoning to *any* church. Have seen the “check the boxes” mentality in independent Protestant churches as well…
Phoenix
I am absolutely sickened by these reports. I am praying that the attorneys for the victims will be given every single piece of evidence and apprised of any knowledge of the events so that all can be exposed.
Been There
When we post explosive stories, we confirm identities and make sure the person(s) involved are still completely onboard with things going public.That is one of the problems that we had with the report. If you read this blog, we are always willing to put our adorable behinds on the line, even when it means taking on difficult people and situations.
And you can been darn sure that the cover-up and/or dismissing any sort of child sexual abuse on the part of Christian entities is our NUMBER 1 hot button.(We hate it all but we focus on the church at this blog). Last night, my husband reminded me of the day he knew I was going to war with a former church who mishandled such a situation. He said I looked at him with clenched fists and said "Enough is enough." The garbage that we endured was unbelievable but it was worth it. A friend told me yesterday that she was the one who sent the mother of the victim at my former church to talk with me. She said she told her that "Dee will know what to do." I didn't but I am a quick learner. And Deb, my partner on this blog, became a partner in that situation as well.
This past week, TWW was vaguely threatened once offline. The venom from the pit of hell is starting to spew and we are pulling on our Wellies to walk through the inevitable garbage.
We want JUSTICE to be served in this situation. In order for that to occur, we do not want to do or say anything that would deflect the attention off the good work of the attorneys in this situation. You can be sure that all is being conveyed to the proper people so this will be dealt with by those who care for the victims.
We honor the courage of all of the victims and their families, including those who are willing to come forward to corroborate the truth. These folks are putting themselves on the line. They have the deep gratitude of everyone on this blog as well as the victims. However, they will be subject to the harsh examination of the other side's attorneys. The statement from SGM appears to say they will fight this. And we all know how loving and kind SGM is if you cross them on a simple matter of theology. Can you imagine their reaction to this? I am sure their attorneys will reflect that "Christian" concern.
This is tough stuff. We are not talking about a bunch of pastors who happen to disagree on methods of baptism. Deb and I were accused, by a NeoCal megadude, of "character assassination" when all we did was ask him to talk to his friend CJ and maybe get him to do something about the stories we were reading on SGM Survivors. Then he had a hissy fit in the pulpit, merely because we questioned some minor issues. The lawsuit is explosive. Can you imagine how these guys are going to respond now?
We stand firmly in the court of the abused and will do anything in our power to assist them so long as it is legal, moral and ethical. We have grown to love these people, although we have only met through the internet.
Please pray for us as we do our best to be the support that we desire to be. Please feel free to ask us questions offline on this situation. We will be quick to post the story when we gets some corroboration.
And to think that Deb asked me if I thought we would have enough to write about when we started this blog!
Re Sovereign Grace music:
(If the emphasis is on Sovereign, there is little Grace!!!!)
I went to my pastor (I was a deacon, worship team singer, SS teacher) and pointed out that SG music was being selected by the worship leader who was a bit naive about SGM. The pastor had not noticed the copyright info but did know about SGM, and put the word out that we should not use SGM music. No big fuss, just those who led music were told to find something else to use and to not use SG music.
@ dee:
I understand. Protecting these victims and those who support them is the most important thing right now. I would not have been the least bit offended if you found it necessary to remove my comments. You and Deb are awesome to stand with these people and face the vitriol that is coming because of it. I stand with you. I have been praying for all of you, and will continue to do so. Bless you for serving the Body of Christ in this way.
Footstool Material?: “You Really Wanna Go Ten Rounds With These Two?”
“Can you imagine how these guys are going to respond now?” -Dee
Hot air, I suppose.
(-snicker-)
Jesus is still siting at His Father’s right hand waiting for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet.
…if the shoe fits? (ma Mamma alwayz used ta say)
hmmm…
These guys have met their match if all the have ta do all day is verbally accost two sweet middle aged Carolina women, armed with conviction, truth, concern for the victim, and a sense of failed justice, and a blog!
…these bullies should pick on someone their own size…
They are certainly no match for da Wartburg dames!
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
Been There
Even as we speak, we are getting details and we will post the story once we get some background. We don’t want to remove your comments because we want people to ask us questions.
“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.” -Dr. Martin L. King
Attorney Susan Burke has mentioned that she would like to speak to others who have experienced abuse while at a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. Please contact Susan Burke: sburke@burkepllc.com or 202.386.9622
56 years
Standing ovation!
Thank you very much for all your comments to my question about SGM music… Quite a bit to chew into!
I have learned a lot since I started reading TWW, and I have to admit that now I tend to look more into the fine details of any particular church, for better or for worse. For example, there’s a church in my city that I always found very interesting. However, I recently discovered that their “family of churches” is associated with the Acts29 network… And, to put it mildly, Mark Driscoll is not my cup of tea. Maybe that’s unfair with this particular congregation, which may be great, but I can not avoid knowing about it.
At times I’ve thought that learning about all these issues has made things more complicated… But, seriously, I would rather know it than not. Thank you very much for all your hard work.
Regarding Acts 29, after my most recent move I was looking for a reformed chruch, and based on websites the acts 28 church looked like it was more of my cult of tea. I didn’t know anything about acts 29 or Driscoll at that point. I ended up here during that search and a little looking into Driscoll turned me off from the chruch completely. It may very well be a great church, but I didn’t want to risk it. And the PCA church I did find is amazing.
And I totally understand why people would be against using SGM music- I just made a decision some time ago after a lot of thought and prayer that I would chose songs based on their own merit, not the merit of the author. This means I’ll reject song by guys I really respect and sometimes do songs by others I don’t. Largely the congregation doesn’t know or care where the songs are from. But that’s me- its a tough thing I’ve wrestled over and my landing point may not be the right one. Hopefully the people choosing the music do think about these things; a worship leader should always consider what is being put into the mouths of the people they lead.
LOL- “cult of tea” should be “cup of tea”. What a typo!
“This past week, TWW was vaguely threatened once offline. The venom from the pit of hell is starting to spew and we are pulling on our Wellies to walk through the inevitable garbage.”
Been there, experienced that. Makes one question what poses for Christendom these days.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Thankyou for your support, BeenThere, though I have to say that since we’ve seen all this behaviour before, forewarned is forearmed!
The humour continues, actually, as the person concerned has just sent me a letter essentially blaming me for her behaviour (in essence, she’s sorry I misunderstood her) and saying that, for the good of the Kingdom, we need to move forward together and that she’s praying that God will help me see the way to do this. Remember: this person is not the Pope, nor Jesus, nor even a local minister or pastor, but an individual believer (and another none at that!!!) who apparently considers us beholden to continue to spend time with her, on her terms, otherwise God’s rule will be compromised.
I share this story mainly in the hope that it will encourage readers here who have been on the receiving end of this sort of thing from influential people with intimidating personalities, a large devoted following and clever and plausible speech. These people are no different from lonely individuals who refuse to get on with others and stave of the resulting loneliness by trying to coerce Christians into providing them with “fellowship”.
It’s often said that, if you have to deliver a presentation and are intimidated by your audience, imagine them all naked. I don’t know whether that’s ever helped anyone give a presentation, to be honest, but you see what I mean. It’s true that, if you take then on and expose then publicly, then obviously they’ll fight as dirty as they can. But at the very least we must always remember that they have no moral authority: they have no claim over our souls.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Said “individual believer” has quite a high opinion of herself, doesn’t she?
Moniker wrote:
“Theologically Sound” or “Ideologically Pure, Comrades”?
When the only difference between Christians and Communists is which Party Line they quote, something is definitely wrong.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG – there is indeed a depressing overlap between theology and ideology in certain circles. One might say that any “church” that defines itself by its theology is no manifestation of the church at all, but a socio-political movement (and possibly, but not necessarily, a pyramid marketing scheme).
In the light of what some of these movements get up to, it’s no wonder so many folk hate religion.