Breaking News: Amended SGM Lawsuit Reportedly Filed

We will keep you posted. Be prepared for shocking revelations. Deb and I are ready, along with Julie Anne Smith, to post these horrible stories as soon as permitted. Pray. Calvinistas- time to admit that there are incredibly serious problems. Will your silence continue?  Also, will Dee and Deb still be guilty of "character assassination?"

Comments

Breaking News: Amended SGM Lawsuit Reportedly Filed — 318 Comments

  1. Hey Dee,
    No matter how bad it is SGM will just write out a bigger check to the girls. My guess is the young women will get free college, Brand new 2013 corvette, new homes costing over $800,000, and a yearly payment of $50,000 for 20 years. This is lunch money to CJ and SGM .

  2. Shocking is right.

    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

    From the East coast to the West coast, we will be exposing. And it ain’t pretty.

  3. delta dagger
    There are some things that are more important to CJ than money. Let’s see what happens when he is deposed. CJ is really being “served.”

  4. Julie Anne

    We will give new meaning to “coast to coast” and this time, the “aliens” will be required to make an appearance.

  5. We will give new meaning to “coast to coast” and this time, the “aliens” will be required to make an appearance.

    Okay, so if I’m an Immortal, and I’m calling from east of the Rockies, should I just use the Wild Card Line?

  6. Sergius

    Give it up. I have lined my hat and clothes with Reynolds Wrap. Our thoughts will not be accessed. Hummmmmmmmmmmmm Hummmmmmmmmm

  7. Dee & Deb,

    Will stay tuned and waiting, sitting on the North-West coast.

    I am bracing myself. Thanks for keeping us informed.

  8. Julie Anne

    If you would have told me we would be at this point, even 6 months ago, I would have never believed it. But, then again, those at TGC never would have either.  And didn't Tim Challies say there was nothing going on and Al Mohler said this was all about people being upset with godly leadership? All of this goes to prove that a few women have far more sense and leadership in exposing sin in the church than these men!

    Good for those brave, brave people. Repent Calvinistas!

  9. delta

    What happens when no one shows up for church? CJ is not one to go quietly into that dark night….

  10. Eagle

    All roads lead to Roswell.The name for the next SGM church? Area 51. In fact, I did hear that the army lost possession of one of the crash landed aliens. Could it be? CJ?

  11. Numo

    Note my comment to Sergius. I am lining a cute hat with tinfoil. I will never let my Driscoll inspired standards for adorable dressing slip-even for aliens. 

  12. Delta dagger, the answer to your question is: money.

    No money equals no SGM. That won’t happen overnight…. but it is already starting to dry up.

  13. http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiryDetail.jis?caseId=369721V&loc=68&detailLoc=MCC

    From what I can tell, the amended Iawsuit is focused on defendants Gallo, Hinders and Ecelbarger, who are the only defendants listed as to have been given time to file responsive pleadings to amended lawsuit.

    Here is how the case will play out over the year, with dates/times subject to change. Lets agree to pray for all the Plaintiffs and that justice would be swift.

    Court Scheduling Information
    (Schedule is subject to change)

    Event Date: 01/18/2013 Event Time: 09:00 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
    Description: SCHEDULING HEARING

    Event Date: 01/18/2013
    Description: PLT EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY

    Event Date: 02/12/2013
    Description: MOTION FOR ALT SVC DEADLINE

    Event Date: 03/14/2013
    Description: DEF EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY

    Event Date: 05/28/2013
    Description: ALL WRITTEN DISCOVERY SERVED BY

    Event Date: 07/12/2013
    Description: DISCOVERY COMPLETED

    Event Date: 07/23/2013
    Description: ADD’L PARTIES JOINDER DEADLINE

    Event Date: 08/09/2013 Event Time: 08:30 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2

    Description: STATUS HEARING
    Event Date: 08/09/2013

    Description: MOTIONS/INC DISPOSITIVE FILED BY
    Event Date: 08/09/2013

    Description: MEETING OF ALL COUNSEL
    Event Date: 08/09/2013

    Description: RULE 2-504.3(B) NOTICE DEADLINE
    Event Date: 08/19/2013

    Description: JOINT PRETRIAL STMT FILED BY
    Event Date: 09/06/2013 Event Time: 01:30 PM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2

    Description: SETTLEMENT/PRETRIAL HRG.

    Issues Information

    Issue: NEGLIGENCE
    Issue: INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS
    Issue: OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE
    Issue: NEGLIGENT ENTRUSTMENT
    Issue: MISREPRESENTATION OF FACTS

  14. I noticed the spacing on the first schedule I posted was messed up. My apologies.

    For you fellow coffee drinkers, please understand I haven’t had my two cups which, as you know, amounts to being brain dead. Don’t argue with me. Must make coffee….

    Court Scheduling Information
    (Schedule is subject to change)

    Event Date: 01/18/2013 Event Time: 09:00 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
    Description: SCHEDULING HEARING

    Event Date: 01/18/2013
    Description: PLT EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY

    Event Date: 02/12/2013
    Description: MOTION FOR ALT SVC DEADLINE

    Event Date: 03/14/2013
    Description: DEF EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY

    Event Date: 05/28/2013
    Description: ALL WRITTEN DISCOVERY SERVED BY

    Event Date: 07/12/2013
    Description: DISCOVERY COMPLETED

    Event Date: 07/23/2013
    Description: ADD’L PARTIES JOINDER DEADLINE

    Event Date: 08/09/2013 Event Time: 08:30 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
    Description: STATUS HEARING

    Event Date: 08/09/2013
    Description: MOTIONS/INC DISPOSITIVE FILED BY

    Event Date: 08/09/2013
    Description: MEETING OF ALL COUNSEL

    Event Date: 08/09/2013
    Description: RULE 2-504.3(B) NOTICE DEADLINE

    Event Date: 08/19/2013
    Description: JOINT PRETRIAL STMT FILED BY

    Event Date: 09/06/2013 Event Time: 01:30 PM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
    Description: SETTLEMENT/PRETRIAL HRG.

  15. What about Ephesians 5.12-13 as well? It’s shameful to even talk about their misdeeds AND it is by the light of your faithful living that you expose them. Not by blabbing them all over the Internet with relish and glee.

  16. New Living Translation (©2007)
    Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.

    That’s the way to do it

  17. Numo

    What a hoot “somehow I read that as Saran Wrap, not Reynolds Wrap!”
    Do you remember that crazy lady, Total Woman, who told Christian women to greet their husbands at the door wrapped in Saran Wrap?

  18. Gavin, I don’t think that Ephesians 5:12 is saying that we should be ashamed to talk about others’ misdeeds. After all, this whole section is talking about the children of the light living in a way that exposes the darkness. It wouldn’t make sense for Paul to exhort us to expose the deeds of darkness and then in the next breath say that we should be ashamed of ourselves for talking about them. What is shameful is the sin and darkness, not our talking about it. What is shameful is when Christians try to cover it up instead of exposing it.

  19. Moniker

    Well said.

    It wouldn’t make sense for Paul to exhort us to expose the deeds of darkness and then in the next breath say that we should be ashamed of ourselves for talking about them.”

    In the OT-God sent the prophets to convict the people or kings of their sin. Today, the Holy Spriit rests on all of us and some of us may be called to do just that-a public call out of sin. But, of course, many leaders think that only leaders are hearing from God…


     

  20. Moniker wrote:

    Gavin, I don’t think that Ephesians 5:12 is saying that we should be ashamed to talk about others’ misdeeds. After all, this whole section is talking about the children of the light living in a way that exposes the darkness. It wouldn’t make sense for Paul to exhort us to expose the deeds of darkness and then in the next breath say that we should be ashamed of ourselves for talking about them. What is shameful is the sin and darkness, not our talking about it. What is shameful is when Christians try to cover it up instead of exposing it.

    Well said!!

  21. Gavin

    Go to the beginning of the paragraph in the Ephesians 5 reference. It is talking about being in the darkness prior to coming into the light. In other words-prior to coming to the faith. Therefore, applying your interpretation, we should keep quiet about the deeds of darkness. So, Christians should stop blabbing about abortion, homosexual behavior, adultery, drunkenness and substance abuse as practiced by “those in the darkness.”No more Chik Fil A Days. Are you sure you want to say this?

  22. Moniker

    I believe he is misreading the verses. These verses show the difference betwee the lifestyles of Christians and nonChristians.

  23. Gavin,

    “…if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person…”

    And what if that person is also guilty of a crime? Like, say, obstruction of justice? Should we keep it private then? In that case, the authorities have to be involved, and there’s no hushing it up at that point. Might as well keep everyone informed, especially if “that person” is a leader in a church. Or a family of churches, for example.

    Speaking hypothetically, of course. ;)

  24. Gavin,

    You are not taking into consideration the whole counsel of God  The approach that you propose is the very reason why SGM is facing the current debacle.

  25. dee wrote:

    Numo
    What a hoot “somehow I read that as Saran Wrap, not Reynolds Wrap!”
    Do you remember that crazy lady, Total Woman, who told Christian women to greet their husbands at the door wrapped in Saran Wrap?

    Yes! This was my remembrance as well, before i even read your comment. A male church elder actually held a special meeting for the women to recommend Total Woman and its “win over your man” methods.

  26. ZGavin White wrote:

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.
    That’s the way to do it

    Gavin –

    You really need to know what the issues are concerning SGM and what the lawsuit is about if you don’t ready know. Some of the people in the suit have been appealing to different leaders in SGM for close to 20 years to get issues resolved. They have gone the gentle and quiet route God asks. There simply comes a time when you must be more forecful and appeal to the law, which actually should have been appealed to at the beginning by the very men who are now being called out in this suit.

    All your comments above show concern for the “ones who have lost their way” but show no concern for the people who have lived with misjustices for years. By the way – many of the victims have no faith in God, have lost their faith, and/or have struggled severely as the result of being ostracized and shunned when they did struggle, while some of the perpetrators were forgiven and helped beyond measure to continue in the fold. It was a warped system.

  27. DaveAA
    It was a ploy of the Devil. If my husband saw me in Saran Wrap, he would have carried me off the local lockup unit for observation. My “prophetic” voice would have been silenced!

  28. Evie
    Here is my prayer. That the darkness will be forced into the light so strongly that finally TGC, Mohler,and others can no longer defend this situation. Pray that these supposed leaders would, for once, focus on victims instead of themselves.

  29. @ dee: Heeheehee!

    That book was popular for a long time, too… in terms of sales, that is. Not sure whether people were buying it for a laugh or what, as it was the subject of much humor at the time.

  30. There is to course a place for public censure but that too has to be done for the right reasons and in the right spirit.

    The rights reasons are
    – Vindicating the honour of Jesus Christ that suffers I’m the miscarriage of a member
    – Preserving the authority of His ordinances and the chastening of disobedience thereunto
    – For the person’s good in the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved
    – For the good of the church that the leaven of profanity spread not and that others may thereby learn to fear.

    The right spirit and purpose of such censure is that the person’s particular edification be not neglected, and therefore in procedure, particular and special respect would be had to the manner – whether by meekness or rigidity, by forebearing or proceeding – which may most attain these ends.

  31. Gavin

    Oh good night! From whence cometh your list?  Leaven of profanity? The chastening of disobedience thereunto?  So, when was the last time any of our readers used “leaven of profanity” in a sentence? Let me tryeth.  If anyone useth leaven of profanity in a sermon, I am outeth there. 

    Excuseth me. I needeth to go chasteneth due to disobedience little Tulip who just stoleth Petunia’s treat.

  32. Dear Gavin, I suspect that your comment was lifted directly from some old dead guy’s commentary. If so, you ought to give credit to your source. If not, I think suggest you try to speak In plain 21st Century English.

  33. Julie Anne

    This one sounds a bit threatening. Can I get a restraining order?

    “For the person’s good in the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved”

  34. Hey Julie Anne

    I am highly suspicious that the man who was doing the modesty thing online might have been reported. Do you know where he lives? How stupid can one man be?

  35. Dee, that sounds like Piper’s enduring abuse for a season or a smacking for a night. It also sounds like Nancy Leigh DeMoss:

    “There are extreme situations where an obedient wife may need to remove herself and/or her children from proximity to her husband, if to remain in that setting would be to place themselves in physical danger. However, even in such a case, a woman can — and must — maintain an attitude of reverence for her husband’s position; her goal is not to belittle or resist him as her husband but, ultimately, to see God restore him to obedience. If she provokes or worsens the situation through her attitudes, words, or behavior, she will interfere with what God wants to do in her husband’s life and will not be free to claim God’s protection and intervention on her behalf.”

  36. Dee,

    Hope you don’t mind…I am adding people’s “conversion” stories to my blog (both Christian and Atheist), if anyone would like to contribute it would be greatly appreciated.

    Send to karl@fendrel.com

    Thanks

  37. Gavin,

    It is highly recommended that you properly cite copyrighted material here at TWW and elsewhere in the blogosphere.

    http://www.naphtali.com/articles/james-durham/extracts-on-scandal/extracts-from-durham-on-scandal-public-scandals/

    Public Scandals and the Order of Church Discipline

    Extracts from Durham on Scandal

    Copyright (c) Naphtali  Press 1996

    A Treatise Concerning Scandal Part 2 Chapter 2

    Concerning What Order is to be Kept in the Following of Public Scandals.

    The second thing, to wit, what order and manner is to be observed in the following of public scandals, is not easily determinable, there being such variety of cases in which the Lord exercises the prudence and wisdom of his church officers. And indeed the gift of government (to speak so) does especially kyth in the right managing of discipline, in reference to the several humors and constitutions (to say so) which men have to do with. For as in bodily diseases the same cure is not for the same disease in all constitutions and seasons, and as ministers in their doctrine are to press the same things in diverse manners upon diverse auditories, so this cure of discipline is not to be applied equally unto all persons, nay, not to such as are in the same offenses. For that which would scarce humble one, may crush another, and that which might edify one, might be stumbling to another of another temper. Therefore we suppose there is no peremptory determining of rules for cases here, but necessarily the manner of procedure in the application of rules, is to be left to the prudence and conscienciousness of church officers, according to the particular circumstantiate case. Yet we may lay down these generals:

    The Ends Of Discipline.

    1. All public processing of scandalous persons, or judicial taking notice of scandals, would be done with respect to the ends for which discipline is appointed, and so as may attain the same. This, I suppose, cannot be denied, for the mids must be suited to its end. Now the ends of public censuring are:

    (1.) For vindicating the honor of Jesus Christ that suffers in the miscarriage of a member.

    (2.) The preserving of the authority of his ordinances and the chastening of disobedience thereunto: Therefore it is called the punishment that was inflicted (2 Cor. 2:6), and it is said to revenge all disobedience (10:6), it being appointed as an ecclesiastic whip to keep up his authority in his house, and thereby to note those that are unruly therein (2 Thess. 3:6-14).

    (3.) It is for the person’s good (as it is said 1 Cor. 5:5), for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved, that by this, admonitions, reproofs, yea, threatenings, may have the more weight for the person’s humiliation and upstirring and the constraining of them at least to a more orderly walk in the church (2 Thess. 3:6, 14).

    (4.) It is for the good of the church that the leaven of profanity spread not, and that others may thereby learn to fear. This reason is given in 1 Cor. 5:6, 7, etc., and 1 Tim. 5:20.

  38. Dee, Let's just say if CJ and SGM lose the case and more churches leave SGM no big deal because SGM will replace all the old churches with new ones. I think that CJ will send PC colleges grads to start new churches.

  39. Serving in Japan wrote:

    Gavin,
    “…And what if that person is also guilty of a crime? Like, say, obstruction of justice? Should we keep it private then?

    Yes, especially if it might impact cult reputation, current revenue streams, or future book sales. And hey, it’s just kids, right? That’s why they tell all the families to make like 8.

    Seriously Gavin, defending these bozos over the multiple abused kids and women? You reveal much by your chosen position.

    And it ain’t good.

  40. @ dee:
    Gavin: forsooth, dear Man, I say unto thee…chastisest thou us in words familiar to feminine ears of recent days…verily, the sense whereof mayhaps enter into the feminine heart & become unto us erudition & education. Wasteth not thy fine words in unsteady discourse…

    Alternatively: speak english…this Queen Elizabeth’s, not the last.

    Dee: were you moved to smite Tulip upon her transgression, or were thy utterances sufficient unto the occasion?

  41. The lawsuit has been amended, but it hasn’t been released. So, at this time, there’s no further information.

  42. Oh and Yes it was Durham- another Scotsman talking sense instead of the lynch mob. You don’t live in the wild west – supposedly you live in a civilised country. Put your guns down and try, as much as you possibly can, to live peaceably with all men (and women).

  43. In the United States legal system, a plaintiff formally begins a civil action when he files a complaint, which names a defendant, in court. A complaint is a short and plain statement of the facts surrounding the controversy. An amended complaint is a revision of the original complaint, previously filed by the plaintiff. A defendant usually has 21 days, from the date on which he is served with the summons and complaint, to officially file his response or answer in court.

    There are many reasons why a plaintiff may want to file an amended complaint. A plaintiff may have subsequently discovered additional facts about the lawsuit, since the time he filed the original complaint. In addition, a plaintiff may wish to amend his complaint to include additional causes of action, or requests for relief, or to name additional parties as defendants to the action.

    In some cases, a plaintiff will need to file an amended complaint because a court may have granted a defendant’s motion to dismiss the plaintiff’s complaint. This may happen if it failed to state a legal claim upon which relief can be granted, or if the allegations made were too vague. In situations where a plaintiff’s original complaint was legally defective, rather than dismissing the plaintiff’s case entirely with no further recourse, many courts will allow the plaintiff to file an amended complaint in order to correct the inadequacies. Most jurisdictions in the United States follow the federal rules of civil procedure, which govern the manner in which a complaint may be amended.

    Rule 15 of the federal rules of civil procedure provides that a plaintiff may amend his complaint as a matter of course, if the defendant has not filed an answer to the original complaint. If the defendant has filed his answer to the original complaint, the plaintiff may amend his complaint only by consent of the defendant, or with the court’s permission. Most courts freely allow a plaintiff to amend his complaint unless the amendment would substantially prejudice the defendant.

    An amended complaint must be also be served upon the defendant. The defendant is then allowed to respond to it within the response time remaining on the original complaint. This is usually 21 days from the date on which it was served, or 10 days from the date of service of the amended complaint, whichever time period is longer.

    http://wisegeek.com/what-is-an-amended-complaint.htm

  44. Deb
    FYI
    I have the book. Atbleastvyou’ve now read part of it. I recommend you read the whole thing and then go on to John Calvin’s ‘Concerning Scandal’, a little known work that puts the blog into perspective.

  45. Dear Dee & Deb: I wasn’t aware that the position of TWW Conscience was up for grabs…Did anyone actually vote Gavin in for this? I must have missed that day.

  46. Gavin (assuming you’re still reading),

    There’s no lynch mob here. Just people wanting justice.

    You keep speaking of “restoration” of the offending party. I’d like to see that; I’m sure that others here would like to see it, too. But repentance must come first. That means the offender must come clean, and make amends to all concerned. In the case of criminal offenses, that includes paying some kind of debt to society. An offender who comes forward on his own to do so has a better chance of expecting restoration to the community.

    So far, though, leaders in SGM have shown little or no willingness to do that. None of them can demand to be acceptance among Christians until they admit their guilt, and make all their amends. And they just keep hiding. So yes, we “name and shame” them. What else can we do in their interests, and in that of their congregants, and society at large?

    BTW, what was the point of the Alexa rankings on this site? And who was getting “puffed up”?

  47. @ Gavin:

    “You don’t live in the wild west – supposedly you live in a civilised country. Put your guns down and try, as much as you possibly can, to live peaceably with all men (and women).”

    You’re right, we don’t live in the Wild West…thus why the courts and valid legal procedure are being used. Legal systems are designed to give people peaceable channels for their grievances. Notice that the able-bodied males in the victims’ families haven’t surrounded the molesters’ houses and burned them down around the perpetrators.

    See also Romans 13. Child molesters (and their enablers) are evildoers and as such should be afraid of the authorities. They have no right to complain when the authorities find out what they were doing and take appropriate action.

    Also, I think the exposure and rooting out of abusers/abusive systems in the church qualifies under Durham’s reason 4 (“It is for the good of the church that the leaven of profanity spread not, and that others may thereby learn to fear”). If church leaders are allowed to get away with abuse, other abusive people in the church will learn that the church is a good place to abuse without getting caught. Thus the “leaven of profanity” spreads. I think it would definitely be “for the good of the church” if child molesters were properly punished.

  48. Gavin is obviously taking sides with those who condone covering up the sexual abuse of minors. He seems little concerned for the real victims in this case. And the Alexa link? What was that relevant to? When a sexual crime has been committed, it no longer falls under the jurisdiction of church discipline protocol. It should have been handled by the authorities years ago. These legal proceedings are long overdue!

  49. I don’t know how credible that Alexa.com site is, but I found this funny (and my hunch is that it is NOT true):

    Based on internet averages, thewartburgwatch.com is visited more frequently by users who are in the age range 35-44, have no college education and browse this site from home.

  50. Sorry, I am easily amused at statistics. Check out my old blog site’s info:

    bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com is visited more frequently by females who have no children, received some college education and browse this site from work.

    This is a crackup!

  51. “What about Ephesians 5.12-13 as well? It’s shameful to even talk about their misdeeds AND it is by the light of your faithful living that you expose them. Not by blabbing them all over the Internet with relish and glee.”

    Congrats Gavin, With that interpretation you are now qualified to be an SGM pastor. It is only 9 mos at the pastors college. YOu would fit right in.

    So let me make sure I understand you right. When the church covers up molestations and even goes as far to tell a mom to put a lock on the inside of her daughters door so daddy cannot rape her anymore, oh, and give the guy more sex so he can still be the “head” of the home. But do not discuss this with anyone else or that is gossip.

    Now, everyone puts on their Christianese game face comes to church to with their outward Christian behavior while the pastors are showing their “outward faithful living” and “humbly correcting the rapist”…that is really your interpretation?

    Ever wonder why they did not call the police and help that poor girl? So basically, (It appears-ed. note)you go along with not protecting children, even molested 3 year olds and all will be ok as long as we live outward Christian lives and humbly correct the wolves. Right.

    Thanks for warning us about your interpretation. As for me, I will warn about wolves, hirlings and charlatans.

  52. Gavin appears to side with people who cover up child sexual abuse, blackmail ministry partners, and side with abusers over the abused (children and mothers).

    I’m assuming it’s because he’s “all in” on the sgm ministry pyramid scheme, somehow financially tied to the perceived health of the sgm brand. Current sgm pastor, blogger, author, or “worship song selling guy, perhaps?” If it’s not financially motivated, i’m stumped on why he sides against the defenseless.

    Gavin, Please clear this up. Are you in any way involved financially in pastoring, book writing, or music selling? if not, why the apparent (ed. note)strong stand with the guys covering this up?

  53. “You keep speaking of “restoration” of the offending party”

    I think perhaps Gavin is saying the SGM pastors need to get saved? How would one restore a “pastor” who never stepped down?

  54. “I’m assuming it’s because he’s “all in” on the sgm ministry pyramid scheme, somehow financially tied to the perceived health of the sgm brand.”

    More like the “Reformed” brand. When someone points you to Calvin’s writing concerning “scandal”, you know there is cognitive dissonance going on. Hypocrisy at the highest level. Ever heard of Servetus? Ever read about life in Geneva when Calvin was pope? Disagreement would land one in the tower.

  55. Anon 1 wrote:

    More like the “Reformed” brand.

    Good point. Might not be sgm-specific, but reformed protectionism. That’s what keeps piper and MacArthur quietly supportive of mahaney, isn’t it? They are kinda all “all in” financially at this point.

  56. My brother and I used to speak King James-ese at Sunday lunch after church to annoy our parents.

    Behold! The Roast. Please passeth the peas.

    It was tradition.

  57. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    “When a sexual crime has been committed, it no longer falls under the jurisdiction of church discipline protocol.”

    Acutally, it still would. There would now be two jurisdictions simultaneously. You could still bring 2 or 3 witnesses to an individual in jail, you could still tell the church and if the sinner truly repents but is sill serving time, you could welcome him back into the church. He may be in jail, but still a member. He could be visited by pastors, etc. The church discipline should be unaffected by criminal prosecution, since its ultimate goal is to restore a sinner to Christ.

  58. How does Alexa gather stats of visitors unless they have profiles with that info on them such as age, education, etc? Anyone know?

  59. Steve Scott wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    “When a sexual crime has been committed, it no longer falls under the jurisdiction of church discipline protocol.”
    Acutally, it still would. There would now be two jurisdictions simultaneously. You could still bring 2 or 3 witnesses to an individual in jail, you could still tell the church and if the sinner truly repents but is sill serving time, you could welcome him back into the church. He may be in jail, but still a member. He could be visited by pastors, etc. The church discipline should be unaffected by criminal prosecution, since its ultimate goal is to restore a sinner to Christ.

    I can respect your position on that. But, this is still not the course of action that SGM took. In many states, including the one in which I reside, a minister is required by law to report sexual crimes which they become aware of to the local authorities. They violate the law by not doing so. However the local church decides to continue handling the offender is up to their own convictions. But they may not bypass the local authorities to do so.

  60. Anon 1 wrote:

    How does Alexa gather stats of visitors unless they have profiles with that info on them such as age, education, etc? Anyone know?

    The Alexa site implied it was applying Internet usage averages in some pseudo-algorithmic way – in other words, they are guessing. (in my other life I’m professionally well-versed in Internet analytics).

  61. BeakerJ

    Gavin is someone’s conscience, all right, but it isn’t ours. I wonder who, though….

  62. Serving

    I believe Gavin is here on behalf of a few folks,trying to knock us down a bit. never fear-we carry on.

  63. Concerned

    Gavin represents a group of people who believe that the only ones worth anything are the church leaders. And, my guess, he is here on behalf of one or more of those. However, we are stubborn women and the Calvinistas have no idea how to deal with them.

  64. Steve

    It has been my experience that churches “pardon” child rapists as quick as they can blink a tear. We’ve written about this here. What is your experience?

     

  65. dee wrote:

    we are stubborn women

    In my experience, is there any other kind? :)

    (if not for stubborn women us men would never leave the couch, and our clothes never leave the floor)

  66. dee wrote:

    If my husband saw me in Saran Wrap, he would have carried me off the local lockup unit for observation.

    But not aluminum foil?

  67. Anon 1 wrote:

    How does Alexa gather stats of visitors unless they have profiles with that info on them such as age, education, etc? Anyone know?

    A lot of reasonable people feel their rankings are reasonable. But as to visitor details, well there’s a lot of inference there based on other sites visited by the same people there IS a lot that can be inferred IN GENERAL about a sites visitors. But once you get below the top 100,000 or 200,000 sites there’s really not enough data to make good inferences.

    As to tracking things they plant cookies via ads and such which allow them to see other sites you visit.

  68. We don’t have any evidence (at least I don’t) that Gavin is in the employ of SGM. I don’t agree with him, but that doesn’t mean he’s nefarious.

  69. I also did not see the relevance of the Alexa link, given that no one had claimed TWW was the/one of the most popular site on the internet.

  70. Dee,

    I don’t have any experience with child rapists in churches, or things that are crimes and don’t go reported (that I know about). I know of a few instances where people were prosecuted for things outside of church that didn’t include a church not reporting them, etc. I’d guess stuff has happened like we’re discussing here, but without my knowledge. I’ve read numerous stories from people who used to be in cults and fundamentalist and legalistic environments.

    My point was that when a crime is committed, it should (according both to the bible and what I’ve been taught in neo-cal circles that the bible says)… and the key word here is “should”… be prosecuted *and* be an issue of church discipline.

  71. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    “But they may not bypass the local authorities to do so.” Agreed!

    “But, this is still not the course of action that SGM took.” Looks that way, huh? It will be interesting to see what happens next.

  72. delta dagger wrote:

    No matter how bad it is SGM will just write out a bigger check to the girls. My guess is the young women will get free college, Brand new 2013 corvette, new homes costing over $800,000, and a yearly payment of $50,000 for 20 years.

    All they have to do is keep silent for life.

  73. dee wrote:

    We will give new meaning to “coast to coast” and this time, the “aliens” will be required to make an appearance.

    I used to get my late night weirdness fix listening to them. No longer. Instead of Ghosts and UFOlogy, today they’re all Conspiracy Conspiracy Conspiracy Conspiracy Conspiracy…

  74. dee wrote:

    What a hoot “somehow I read that as Saran Wrap, not Reynolds Wrap!”
    Do you remember that crazy lady, Total Woman, who told Christian women to greet their husbands at the door wrapped in Saran Wrap?

    Well, if hubby has a Baked Potato Fetish/Paraphilia, maybe wifey SHOULD use Reynolds Wrap instead…

  75. dee wrote:

    It has been my experience that churches “pardon” child rapists as quick as they can blink a tear.

    “One hand washes the other…”

  76. Hester wrote:

    We don’t have any evidence (at least I don’t) that Gavin is in the employ of SGM.

    Though it wouldn’t surprise me if that were the case. Either that or he’s an SGM fanboy.

  77. Dee: I didn’t really think you would smite one of your hounds btw, I just wanted to say smite.

    And that Modesty Man thing? Shudder. Creepy with a capital yuck.

  78. Steve,

    Thank you for clarifying your position. I imagine if you’ve never experienced pedophilia or sexual assault issues in your church, those of us who have may come across as very opinionated. Many of these issues have been extensively covered on this blog. Unfortunately, the environments and thinking in some churches creates a haven for this deviant behavior to flourish. Often, church leadership will place their reputation, income, and image before the damage done to a violated child. Some act as if their little fiefdoms are too sancrosanct for law enforcement to be involved. I may be a little jaded, because this happened in my church. I sincerely hope that there are churches out there that will love others as much as they love themselves. And that molested children will not be swept under the carpet like some dirty little secret.

  79. BTDT: Exactly – – The pastors in these types of churches are running empires that they believe must maintain the perfect image, so they do damage control when a sex crime occurs. It’s backwards – rather than a pastor loving, protecting, caring for his sheep, the focus is always about him and the image of his church. Everything is about saving face, the victims are not a concern or are of minimal concern. And you are right, they view their empire too holy for civil authorities. They think they would have to lower themselves to submit to governmental authorities and they don’t want to do that because it portrays them as weak. That would destroy their image.

    This is the pattern we saw at BGBC, HOFCC, SGM – it is the pattern of abuse. There is no genuine love for the hurting. Where there is no love, there is no true shepherd.

  80. Eagle, my head is spinning. A WOMAN pastor is promoting CJ Mahaney books/teaching?

    BTW, Mahaney IS an expert on pride. (wink)

  81. Eagle – I’m not exactly surprised that someone from another church in the D.C. area would write such positive reviews of Mahaney’s books.

  82. “I had no idea how far SGM material had penetrated other churches…”

    Oh, believe it. I saw his stuff promoted in non Reformed churches all the time. You would not believe how many non Reformed pastors have NO clue what is going on out there. They see Mohler talk about it and think it is good. The gravitas a simple mention or recommendation on a book or sermon from a celebrity is astounding. It is one of my biggest concerns. People look to the celebs for truth and understanding. Not to Christ. it is a huge problem.

    Just read around the blogosphere and see how many people who ahve followed celebs in trouble are talking about them “repenting” or doing the right thing. They still talk of them as if they are leaders. They cannot grasp that they have been following a hirling or a wolf. They still see them as their leader or a leader.

    This sort of thinking is all over our society. It is the entitlement mentality. People want both the government and the church to take care of them and do their thinking for them. It scares me for the future.

  83. I had not heard of NCC. Guess I am out of the loop. Went to the site and looked at “leadership team”. They have a “roving discipler”. I wonder how that works?

  84. Eagle,

    What is really gut wrenching to me is that Mahaney’s writing must be striking a chord in people’s hearts who are continuing to strive for a deeper Christian walk. But does it really work? What has been the fruit in the church empire he built and instituted these things in? Are there any churches anywhere that have instituted his teachings and not fallen into the same quagmires? I’ve read some of your comments outlining your experience with a shepherding type discipleship. Horrible! My experience mirrors your own in many ways. I’d like to entertain the fantasy that it has worked for someone somewhere, but most of what we read about are the negative effects. And a good tree doesn’t produce bad fruit. I hope people begin to see just how damaging these teachings are.

  85. Steve,
    How would you go about determining if a sexual abuser is truly repentant? Also, how would you deal with a situation where a victim is in the same congregation and still active where the repentent (and in this case, I do mean truly repentent, not just a guy demanding forgiveness) abuser wishes to come back. What if the victim cannot stand to be around the abuser?

    I’m not asking these questions to interrogate you, but listening to tales of abuse victims, it is quite common for churches to quickly forgive abusers and oppress the victims who they see as unwilling to “forgive”. Abusers are excellent at false repentance and very few abusers change (but it does happen).

    I would contend that a truly repentant abuser who understand the need of a victim to be left alone and seek a place to worship where he will not cause pain with his presence.

  86. http://www.thecirclemaker.com/

    This is the problem I have with this brand of Christianity. Do this and you can have a big rich church, too, complete with a coffee house and theatre?

    Of course, he markets and packages this as a “campaign”. I get so weary and sick of this stuff. It is so shallow and I get sick that people fall for it.

  87. JEffS, I had some of the same questions concerning the idea of “discipline” with such heinous crimes as child molestation, etc. Why do we assume that a professing believer who we find out was raping his daughter was ever saved?

    In 1 Corin 5 we see Paul advising them to turn the guy who was sleeping with his step mom over to Satan. It seems to have worked as we read in 2 Corin. (if that is about him)

    Paul then goes on to give counsel that is totally ignored today in most churches and the opposite of what we see played out. Most churches focus on the horrors in culture/world and ignore the abuses in their midst. Paul counsels the opposite:

    I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]

    Does this mean they can never be restored? I don’t think so but like you, I have to ask what is genuine repentence? Most molesters of this type are not caught unless the victim talks because they know how to “act” like a believer. It actually gives them cover for their heinous crimes.

  88. Hey Headless Guy,
    For the money that SGM and CJ are going to pay to the young women I hope there is a gag order— because the money they are getting should shut the case down.

  89. My $.02 – A truly repentant person puts the needs/desires of the victim ahead of their own ALWAYS, no exceptions. They do that because they realize the gravity of their sin and the long-lasting effects on the victim. When an abuser focuses on themselves first, that is the first clue of unrepentance.

  90. “….what happens if God doesn’t answer your prayer. Did the person praying lack faith?”

    Yep. That is what makes guys like Batterman celebs. People actually believe God just gave them a ton of money, followers and aquired all those properties and businesses. Of course, those of us behind the scenes in such church growth venues in the past know a very different story. But the thinking goes like this…… if they give God the credit then they are perceived as humble and full of faith. And it does not take long for them to really believe that and forget the twists and turns it took to make their dream a reality.

  91. @ Jeff S:
    I would contend that a truly repentant abuser who understand the need of a victim to be left alone and seek a place to worship where he will not cause pain with his presence.

    I might go so far as to add that he will consider the effects he’s had on friends and family of the victim as well, and not seek to disturb their peace either.

    Let this repentant one start new someplace else.

  92. Anon1, yes, I quite agree with you, especially about the thrust of Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor 5.

    I DO believe the church has a role to play with the abuser, but the victim must come first.

  93. Jeff S wrote:

    I would contend that a truly repentant abuser who understand the need of a victim to be left alone and seek a place to worship where he will not cause pain with his presence.

    Agreed, 1000%.

    It seems that in the case of SGM, it seems that the common sense indication of “true repentence” as defined by JeffS was utterly and completely ignored in favor of “sin sniffing,” “biblical reconciliation,” and “biblical peacemaking.” All to maintain the idol of almighty CONTROL.

    How.
    On.
    Earth.
    Do these SGM leaders sleep at night? How????

    I am looking forward to reading the amended documents for sure. Not in a spirit of “gossip and slander” but in a spirit of grief and GRATITUDE FOR DAYLIGHT AND TRANSPARENCY. :(

  94. Julie Anne wrote:

    My $.02 – A truly repentant person puts the needs/desires of the victim ahead of their own ALWAYS, no exceptions. They do that because they realize the gravity of their sin and the long-lasting effects on the victim. When an abuser focuses on themselves first, that is the first clue of unrepentance.

    Exactly. If I put myself in the shoes of an abuser and consider the effects my abuse, my #1 priority would be doing whatever it took to help my victim heal from what I did. This is different from “restoring the relationship”: I would realize that without an extraordinary work of grace, the relationship would not be restored and I would have had no expectation of it. Most likely the best thing I could do is to walk away permanently.

    And the moment and abuser utters “you sinned too”, or “you have to forgive me,” he reveals he is not repentant.

  95. @ Anon 1:
    I looked through that site and found an account on the Tell Your Story page that is highly disturbing. Apparently there is a chapter in this Circle book called “Cloudy with a Chance of Quail.” The tone of the account that references this chapter is that this guy who wrote the book taught that this quail business was a “miracle from God that Moses didn’t think God could do.” He completely ignores that it was a judgment. I can’t begin to imagine how you get a miracle that implies blessing out of

    “And the anger of the Lord was greatly aroused; Moses also was displeased…The Lord shall give you meat and you shall eat…for a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you, because you have despised the Lord who is among you….But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was aroused against the people…”

    I am utterly at a loss on that one.

  96. Jeff S wrote:

    I would realize that without an extraordinary work of grace, the relationship would not be restored

    It cannot be overemphasized that the work of grace in restoration IS extraordinary. It may (or may not) occur after the long difficult work of healing by the victim.

    That extraordinary work of grace can’t be demanded instantaneously by selfish church leaders with their own power interests, or misguided American evangelical impulses to skip over people’s suffering because “good” Christians must have joy joy joy in their hearts hearts hearts need to simply “get over it and get more bible.” :(

  97. Rafiki wrote:

    Jeff S wrote:
    I would realize that without an extraordinary work of grace, the relationship would not be restored
    It cannot be overemphasized that the work of grace in restoration IS extraordinary. It may (or may not) occur after the long difficult work of healing by the victim.
    That extraordinary work of grace can’t be demanded instantaneously by selfish church leaders with their own power interests, or misguided American evangelical impulses to skip over people’s suffering because “good” Christians must have joy joy joy in their hearts hearts hearts need to simply “get over it and get more bible.”

    Word.

  98. Rafiki wrote:

    It cannot be overemphasized that the work of grace in restoration IS extraordinary. It may (or may not) occur after the long difficult work of healing by the victim.

    And the grace starts with true repentance of the abuser, which is a miracle in itself. A responsible pastor would never council any other person to stake his or her well being on the necessity or a miraculous event, but so many are willing to put a victim of abuse’s life on the line waiting for an abuser to repent.

    https://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/the-fallacy-of-depending-on-a-miracle/

  99. Anon 1 wrote:

    This sort of thinking is all over our society. It is the entitlement mentality. People want both the government and the church to take care of them and do their thinking for them. It scares me for the future.

    This kind of thing scares me the most! There is no one to listen to, no one to imitate, except Christ. Math and computers, the only earthly things I can believe in. Can we discuss spiritual authority? What is it, who has it, and why we need it?

  100. @Eagle,Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 04:35 PM

    I call it ‘church shopping’. It was always used as a negative, derisive term when I was growing up, so my aim was to turn it into a positive thing. When I would visit a new church and was politely asked afterwards the usual “who, what, where, when” about myself, I would smile sweetly and explain, ‘oh, I’m church shopping’. Some took the honesty quite well.

  101. OK-OK-OK,
    This court case is a civil case. Of course the women are seeking a huge payday. I would bet my first born son that CJ and SGM will not say a word to the women. I think that SGM should have nip this in the bud years ago. I guess that CJ and SGM could have payed off the women years ago. Well SGM has learned something from this mess have a legal staff on duty 24/7/365

  102. Delta Dagger, you know nothing, let me repeat, nothing about it and you are egregiously insulting the plaintiffs, their families, other victims, and many other people. The lawsuit is NOT about money and the plaintiffs will NEVER, read NEVER accept any resolution that leaves the truth hidden. I think you are the one to whom things are always and entirely about money.

    The congregation of Fairfax Covenant Church, the second of the two large, influential mothership churches of SGM, voted this afternoon to leave SGM.

  103. @delta dagger, I still don’t understand where you are coming from unless you contributed tithes to one of the churches. Do you feel you have a stake in this?

    Unfortunately sometimes the only way to make organisations and the people in them sit up and take notice is to hit them where it hurts – the accounting bottom line.

    I will now withdraw from putting my thoughts out there on church organisations that run like “Holy Motors”.

  104. @ Jeff S:
    Exactly. If I put myself in the shoes of an abuser and consider the effects my abuse, my #1 priority would be doing whatever it took to help my victim heal from what I did. This is different from “restoring the relationship”: I would realize that without an extraordinary work of grace, the relationship would not be restored and I would have had no expectation of it. Most likely the best thing I could do is to walk away permanently.

    This is where SGM has failed. Look how they treated the sex abuse situation where the toddler was forced to meet with the sex offender for reconciliation. That is absurd. The truly repentant person says, “I do not deserve to have a relationship with with my victim.”

    This is contrary to what so many churches teach that you have to be completely reconciled. To some that looks like perpetrator/victim can be fellowshipping in church together, eat together, etc, and if a victim says “no”, the victim is faulted for being in sin with an unforgiving heart. That is not right.

  105. @ delta dagger:

    SGM hasn’t learned much of anything. What people (not just women) want was repentance, acknowledgement of wrong\bad counsel, and changes made so that children are protected and people aren’t reharmed by bad counsel by pastors and leaders in churches. Money was not the main issue except where people have had to pay for professional help due to their experiences in SGM.

  106. Delta Dagger,

    I completely back up Phoenix’s statement. Perhaps you should read the abuse stories before you comment further.

  107. Phoenix wrote:

    The congregation of Fairfax Covenant Church, the second of the two large, influential mothership churches of SGM, voted this afternoon to leave SGM.

    Good on them!

  108. @Phoenix, just saw your comment @5.43 – please don’t think that I was stating that those who have suffered are out for monetary gain or revenge principles, etc.

  109. Phoenix

    I am suspicious of this commenter and would like to forward these comments to the attorney for the victims. This may be the beginning of a campaign of harrassment. As you will see from my comment to delta -this stops now. 

  110. ” am suspicious of this commenter and would like to forward these comments to the attorney for the victims. This may be the beginning of a campaign of harrassment. As you will see from my comment to delta -this stops now. ”

    In this particular situation with abuse and rape, I totally agree. Get the IP address, too.

    There is no amount of money in the world to make up for their initial abuse and second abuse by “Christian” leaders they have had to live with.

    Delta Dagger needs to know there are believers out there that will NOT put up with this sort of treatment of victims.

  111. @ anonymous:

    I looked through that site and found an account on the Tell Your Story page that is highly disturbing. Apparently there is a chapter in this Circle book called “Cloudy with a Chance of Quail.” The tone of the account that references this chapter is that this guy who wrote the book taught that this quail business was a “miracle from God that Moses didn’t think God could do.” He completely ignores that it was a judgment. I can’t begin to imagine how you get a miracle that implies blessing out of
    …”

    Ironically that was part of the lesson today with my 4th grader SS class. If more pew sitters were Bereans this sort of twisting to make it fit their current message would not work. it makes me sick. It is why I am extremely picky who I listen to for learning and check everything.

    Eagle, do you know how many times I have heard some celebrity talk about a person who committed a crime (at whatever level) talk about God “delivering” them from the consequence? It is horrendous and does not endear us to the world at all. In fact, it makes them want some of that magic or turns their stomach.

  112. Delta Dagger UNDER WARNING:

    You have violated our prime directive. On this blog, we support and uphold victims of abuse. If a commenter consistently insults victims without showing any mercy or love, they will not be allowed to comment. Congratulations. You are one of the few in our 3 year history who has crossed that line.

    Starting with your next comment, if you insult the victims or their families, impugn their motives, and show a wretched lack of good taste and/or class, you will be banned from this blog for 1 week. You have not only said enough, you have said too much. At the end of that 1 week suspension, all of your comments will go into serious moderation.

    I will be forwarding your comments to the attorney for the victims just in case this is the beginning of a campaign of harrassment. 

    I have had the honor of speaking with some of the victims. I could only hope that I would show such dignity if confronted with their circumstances. If SGM had apologized and repented this would not have happened.

    But the SGM leader formerly known as Apostle, (aka Mr. Humility), showed a singular lack of class, love and compassion. He should be ashamed of himself, as should SGM leaders who knew about these victims but, instead, decided to show poor judgment in following the leader. No wonder they have attorneys 24/7/365, as you so inelegantly put it. They need it. 

  113. Eagle, I understand how much you want them to repent for the way they hurt you. I’ve been there, both with my ex wife and my old church. I just wanted them to admit how wrong they were and how they hurt me (this includes a confession of mine in the name of accountability that was then revealed to others- something that wasn’t really that bad, but the breach of trust was painful). I almost walked away from faith entirely.

    But I once sat in a session with a therapist speaking to a lot of emotionally hurting people and he offered some great wisdom (this was a secular therapist): do not wait for those who hurt you to make it better. It isn’t fair, but you have to heal without them. If your father sexually abused you as a little girl, he is likely never going to work to make it right. He should, and it should fall to him, but as unjust as it is, that just isn’t the way the world works.

    I realized through my own recovery how much I was waiting on my ex and my church to “make it right”- but I finally figured out they wouldn’t ever do it. Every time I tried to broach the subject with my ex or tried to send an email to my old church, I was merely keeping the wounds open, making my recovery dependent on them. And I was letting them define what my faith had to mean, but I decided that they were not the gatekeepers of who Jesus loves. I could walk away from them without walking away from Jesus.

    It was actually the day my divorce was finalized that the latest Rush CD came out, and it had this song on it. I highly recommend reading the words, it got me through a LOT:

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/wishthemwell.html

    But beyond all of that, I want to say that these people do not represent Christ to you as they claimed to. Rejecting their teaching does not mean rejecting Jesus. I know it can feel that way, but there were Christians long before those who injured you were around, or even Calvin and others whose theology they used to injure you. You know that I still hold to that theology, but I don’t always agree it means what they say it does (and I certainly don’t think that accepting my brand of soteriology is required for someone to be a Christian).

    Remember that both Paul and Jesus affirmed that the highest calling is love- if anyone violates the call to love, they are not representing Jesus or the Christian faith. We don’t even know that those who betrayed you are believers- scripture warns of false teachers and false believers.

    I know you have a lot of questions and a lot of Christians fire back at you for even asking, but I know you’ve also seen believers who don’t. If you were in my town I’d gladly meet you for coffee as much as you liked to talk about the tough questions. Of course, I don’t have it all figured out: my faith doesn’t require me to know everything, only that the thing that makes more sense than anything else is that I need a Savior and Jesus is him.

    So I guess if you’re ever in Atlanta, let me know and I’ll buy you a cup of coffee. And if you’re really feeling trusting, you can visit my church. I’d hope you’d see a different brand of evangelical Christianity than you’ve experienced elsewhere.

    But above all, I’d encourage you to do what those who hurt you did not. Make your faith journey about Jesus, not the extra stuff that’s been piled on. There are a lot of wolves in Christian churches (and entire churches full of wolves) that seek to devour the weak and pull people away from the love and mercy of Christ. But there are real Christians out there too, and you will know them by how they love, not how they devour.

  114. delta dagger wrote:

    Hey Dee,
    No matter how bad it is SGM will just write out a bigger check to the girls. My guess is the young women will get free college, Brand new 2013 corvette, new homes costing over $800,000, and a yearly payment of $50,000 for 20 years. This is lunch money to CJ and SGM .

    I would question that SGM has this deep of pockets. I know they have a large reserve of dollars but not to this degree. You are talking around 2 million dollars per person. So far I believe there are 3 plaintiffs.

    This would especially be true now that CLC and SGM Fairfax are leaving and had already suspended their contributions to SGM a while ago. I am sure the move to KY resulted in SGM dipping into their reserves as well as the costs of funding CJ’s “plant” in KY. There are also legal fees that SGM is already having to pay to defend themselves against this suit.

  115. Steve 240 and all other SGM Survivors-Bridget, Evie, Happy Mom, Phoenix

    Delta Dagger is commenting on the Survivors site. Here is his/her comment over there

    “Just an update Minnesota and Colorado are solid SGM. Also my pastor Rick Gamache the local leader of SGM in the midwest is opening a new SGM church in north Minneapolis.”

    Dagger has just been exposed as a SGM person and may be involved in some sort of  campaign to hurt the victims. Could you all let Kris know? Also, do you think Rick Gamache would be happy to be associated with Delta Dagger during this trying time? I bet all of us could figure out his identity.

    I have just put dagger on the banned list.

  116. From “The Princess Bride”:

    Inigo Montoya: HELLO! MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA! YOU KILLED MY FATHER! PREPARE TO DIE!
    [Inigo corners Count Rugen, knocks his sword aside, and slashes his cheek, giving him a scar just like Inigo’s]
    Inigo Montoya: Offer me money.
    Count Rugen: Yes!
    Inigo Montoya: Power, too, promise me that.
    [He slashes his other cheek]
    Count Rugen: All that I have and more. Please…
    Inigo Montoya: Offer me anything I ask for.
    Count Rugen: Anything you want…
    [Rugen knocks Inigo’s sword aside and lunges. But Inigo traps his arm and aims his sword at Rugen’s stomach]
    Inigo Montoya: I want my father back, you son of a $&@)!!

    Not everyone is after money and power as they seek justice to be done, and the remedys available in this life are never enough for some offenses.

  117. Jeff S

    A great quote from one of my favorite movies. My favorite is the half dead as opposed to fully dead scenes.

  118. Steve

    Form the looks of things at the Marriott-Louisville has not been a cash cow in the church arena. I wonder if anyone is giving them any money from SBTS? Perhaps as adjunct professors, instructors, etc.? After all, CJ, in his better days, gave them a fair amount of moola.

    As for the suit, they may have had some sort of church insurance policy that is covering them for legal costs this go round. However, bet they will have to pay thru the teeth to stay insured. But that would be on the backs of the dedicated few-like dagger.

  119. “But I once sat in a session with a therapist speaking to a lot of emotionally hurting people and he offered some great wisdom (this was a secular therapist): do not wait for those who hurt you to make it better. It isn’t fair, but you have to heal without them. If your father sexually abused you as a little girl, he is likely never going to work to make it right. He should, and it should fall to him, but as unjust as it is, that just isn’t the way the world works.

    I realized through my own recovery how much I was waiting on my ex and my church to “make it right”- but I finally figured out they wouldn’t ever do it. Every time I tried to broach the subject with my ex or tried to send an email to my old church, I was merely keeping the wounds open, making my recovery dependent on them.

    Every victim needs to read this 100x. If a crime was committed or obstruction of justice, then go to authorities which is not only about justice but about protecting future victims. But if any victim is hoping or waiting around for these folks involved to admit their wrong doing….you are only rehurting yourself over and over. One of the best ways to deal with it is to not see them at all. Only time will lessen their past influence over you. Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation with those who are not genuinely repentent. It does not mean fellowship either. Do not let people guilt you over that. Your forgiveness will not lessen their culpability. It will release you. Not them.

    Jeff, good words! So glad you had a good secular therapist

  120. According to a commenter at SGM Survivors here is the count of churches who have left SGM thus far

    here is the total I have of confirmed departures. Many have posted that Arlington has just asked to be removed from the website and I have been told that it is in fact gone from SGM. San Francisco is also definitely gone. The Washington church that has been cited closed its doors, unrelated to the crisis.

    VA: Charlottesville (Berault), Arlington (Simmons), Fairfax (Mullery) (3)
    FL: Daytona Beach (Jarvis), St. Pete (Cisar), Sarasota (Nguyen), Miami (Prado) (4)
    CA: Pleasonton (Shin), San Francisco (Kurth), San Diego (Lauterbach) (3)
    Canada: Surrey, BC(Pat Sczebel) (1)
    MD: CLC (Harris)(1)

    That totals 12 who have left. As far as we know there is still 1 pending: Virginia Beach.

  121. Eagle

    Just heard your message.Left my phone on vibrate and on the charger. Sorry-did that Frriay as well.  I am around in the evenings all this week.

  122. Thanks, Anon1. He actually became my therapist after this talk because I was really impressed with what he had to say.

    And you are spot on about forgiveness. I told my ex “I’ve forgiven you- there is nothing that you need to do to make things right. But I cannot stay married to you because I cannot trust you. I am not punishing you, I am protecting myself”. I don’t think she really understood this, but I did. Forgiveness means no more debt, and there is none. And that did set me free.

  123. “Inconceivable!”

    “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

  124. dee wrote:

    Delta Dagger is commenting on the Survivors site. Here is his/her comment over there

    “Just an update Minnesota and Colorado are solid SGM. Also my pastor Rick Gamache the local leader of SGM in the midwest is opening a new SGM church in north Minneapolis.”

    What, exactly, does she mean “….Colorado are solid SGM.”? I live in Colorado and as a state, we are certainly NOT solidly any denomination (thank God). So…..bizarre statement..

  125. Jeanette, I think h/she means that his SGM church there still pledges allegiance to CJ Mahaney.

  126. Dee –

    Delta Dagger has been an enigma to me. Most of his/her comments have been odd. Sometimes his comments seem pro SGM, sometimes anti SGM. I have ignored most of them, until the one above. It clearly seemed a dig at victims.

  127. Bridget

    Dagger is a problem, both for the victims and for SGM. Why SGM? If they are involved in encouraging their current members to harrass the victims, they could be in trouble. I bet the SGM lawyers would not be pleased about this. I wonder if anyone has let Rick Gamache know what he is breeding out there?

     

  128. @ Jeanette:

    “Just an update Minnesota and Colorado are solid SGM.”

    The home ranges of John Piper and Kevin Swanson? Of course they are.

  129. “Also my pastor Rick Gamache the local leader of SGM in the midwest is opening a new SGM church in north Minneapolis.”

    Poor Minneapolis. It has, what, like 3-4 big-name churches now? Are pastors in Minneapolis required to be famous or semi-famous?

  130. @ Dee:

    “That totals 12 who have left. As far as we know there is still 1 pending: Virginia Beach.”

    I believe the phrase you are searching for is “like rats from a sinking ship”?

  131. @ Steve:

    “No matter how bad it is SGM will just write out a bigger check to the girls. My guess is the young women will get free college, Brand new 2013 corvette, new homes costing over $800,000, and a yearly payment of $50,000 for 20 years. This is lunch money to CJ and SGM.”

    “I would question that SGM has this deep of pockets.”

    Inclined to agree with Steve here… “Lunch money”? It’s SGM, not JP Morgan. C. J. isn’t Bernie Madoff.

  132. ” Why do people believe that the churches that are leaving are healthier than those in the SGM network? ”

    Thank YOU!!!

  133. Yes, please keep in mind that the Fairfax vote does not indicate that the leadership there is repentant, that it has become a healthier place to church, or that it is a place where children are safe from pedophiles.

  134. Anon 1 wrote:

    ” Why do people believe that the churches that are leaving are healthier than those in the SGM network? ”
    Thank YOU!!!

    I keep asking the same thing about all the CLC praise. I’m betting the same power structure, care group reporting ( and record keeping) etc continues.

    If CLC starts talking about a new network of churches, RUN. Just trading pope mahaney for pope harris at that point. A healthy church doesn’t need a network. A product (book, conference, “worship” music, etc) in search of a captive purchasing market does, though.

    (wonder what David charged everyone to sing his songs? What’s with these dudes?)

  135. Jeff S said:
    I am not punishing you, I am protecting myself”. I don’t think she really understood this, but I did. Forgiveness means no more debt, and there is none. And that did set me free.

    Love this, Jeff! Thank you for those words of wisdom!

  136. Ok, Jenn Grover has confirmed at SGMSurvivors that Chesapeake SGM also voted today and is cutting ties with SGM. That makes TWO prominent SGM churches in one day: Chesapeake AND Fairfax.

    Please keep in mind that there are so many abuse stories from these churches. The corruption started from the top and has been trickling on down the hierarchy for years. Leaving SGM does not change the learned patterns of behavior.

  137. “Why do people believe that the churches that are leaving are healthier than those in the SGM network?”

    Maybe this was already suggested, but it’s likely a move to distance themselves from the negative publicity that’s about to ensue. They probably won’t change one iota of their modus operandi.

  138. @ Eagle:

    You are very courageous (not sure if that’s the right word, but a better one escapes me right now) to keep searching and asking questions. I still can’t bring myself to visit a church right now, though we’ve been invited several times. I’m still trying to come to grips with the last one I experienced. This blog is helping with that. Kudos to you for sorting through it all.

  139. Eagle wrote:

    How long do you think before we’ll see CJ Mahnaey being a dishwasher at a chain like Oliver Garden/Ruby Tuesdays?

    Cee Jay is far too Humble for that. It would be beneath his Humble dignity as Head Apostle.

    Oh man the stories I saw when I washed dishes…..it was my very first job.

    I spent the summer of 1978 as kitchen help and dishwasher duty in the Cal Poly dorm kitchens. Maybe we could compare notes.

  140. dee wrote:

    Jeff S

    A great quote from one of my favorite movies. My favorite is the half dead as opposed to fully dead scenes.

    “Depends. If he’s fully dead, about all you can do is go through his pockets for spare change.”

  141. Eagle, I just went and looked at the power point slides on that Greg Boyd link. WOW. So different than what we usually hear about death, grief, etc.

    I can imagine there was not a dry eye in the house. I am going to listen to the sermon tomorrow.

  142. Rafiki wrote:

    That extraordinary work of grace can’t be demanded instantaneously by selfish church leaders with their own power interests, or misguided American evangelical impulses to skip over people’s suffering because “good” Christians must have joy joy joy in their hearts hearts hearts need to simply “get over it and get more bible.”

    As Internet Monk has pointed out several times, American Evangelicals have forgotten how to Lament. Despite the fact that Lamentation has a long historical trace in the Bible — many of the Psalms, many of the Prophets, there’s even one whole book titled Lamentations.

    In personal experience, when I have had stories burst into my mind fully formed, demanding to be written, they are usually Dark. Half the time they are Lamentations.

  143. Eagle wrote:

    I can’t worship a God that orchestrates a bridge collapse, tornado, or someone’s suicide by saying it happened for a purpose and as a result of God’s sovereignty.

    I think very few Christians, even reformed ones, believe that God orchestrates evil. Rather most believe he makes good out of our evil. John Piper does not speak for all Christians when he blames God for orchestrating cancer.

  144. @ Jeff S: exactly. Piper speaks for himself and should be perceived as such.

    re. churches leaving SGM, i don’t have any real hope that they’ll change.

  145. @ Jeff S:

    You might be surprised about what is being said out there in the wide world. Piper worship is everywhere. I talk to people who would have a real problem if I said that I disagreed with something Piper said or wrote. I shared recently in a meeting that I believed God was good and didn’t create evil when people were talking about God sending hardship and sickness their way. They then referenced the sovereignty of God and Piper — ugh! And the conversation progressed to, “God is so other than us we can’t know what He considers good” (surprise, surprise). One person in the group then asked another, in private, why it seems that people in our church don’t know what our church believes. She apparently didn’t think that I can believe something different than her and what we hear from the pulpit or Piper. People seemed concerned that I wasn’t in locked-step with everyone else — sigh . . .

  146. Julie Anne wrote:

    Dee – I will ask around. That was certainly creepy behavior. I highly suspect it was because he used copyrighted photos from professional photographers. (TWW readers, this is what Dee and I are talking about: http://goo.gl/CJNQt)

    Christian authors Christine A. Colon and Bonnie Field discuss this topic on pages 102 – 103 of their book “Singled Out.”

    They not only mention that women can be “visually oriented” too (which is true), but that it’s legalistic, and it’s shifting responsibility where it belongs, to come up with long dress codes of what women should and should not wear, and then tell the women, “here, dress like this list says to so that men won’t lust.”

    On page 103, the authors mention they know unmarried women who are turned on by males with ‘Roman noses, strong yet graceful hands, wire-rimmed glasses, [etc]’ and they write,

    But you don’t see any dating guides telling men to cover up their noses or not wear glasses because they might cause a woman to lust.

  147. dee wrote:

    Concerned
    Gavin represents a group of people who believe that the only ones worth anything are the church leaders. And, my guess, he is here on behalf of one or more of those. However, we are stubborn women and the Calvinistas have no idea how to deal with them.

    What is fascinating is that so many of the Neo Cals are having to take women seriously.

    They run around in their sermons, books, and web sites saying they are gender complementarians, and they don’t believe women should teach or lead in church, and they don’t seem to think the views of women should be taken seriously.

    And yet, they sure do spend a lot of time and effort trying to refute female Christian bloggers, whether those female bloggers are just doing their own thing, or responding to Neo-Calvinism or gender complementarianism.

    They teach, “don’t listen to women or take their views seriously,” but they are doing that very thing every time they write a new Tweet, blog post, or book commenting on the writings of female Christian bloggers.

  148. Jeff S wrote:

    I’m not asking these questions to interrogate you, but listening to tales of abuse victims, it is quite common for churches to quickly forgive abusers and oppress the victims who they see as unwilling to “forgive”. Abusers are excellent at false repentance and very few abusers change (but it does happen).

    I’ve seen the same thing when it comes to bullying – I was harassed by one boss at a job I had.

    I began reading books about bullying in the workplace, and other books by other people who were experts.

    I noticed that nobody at my job (and they could see this boss abusing me) did nothing to help me, and I was taught by my mother to never fight back (good Christians are doormats).

    I wanted to study this issue to figure out why it happens, if and how I could protect myself in the future, etc., and I learned an awful lot in the process.

    When it comes to bullying (whether children bullying each other in school -which I also experienced- or adult-on-adult bullying in workplaces), the victim is not only not protected by the organization (or school), but he or she (the target) will be blamed or forced out.

    In a lot of schools, kids who are targets are forbidden from standing up to the bully.

    If both kids (bully and target) are brought in over their issues, even if the bullying is one-way and one-sided (i.e., the target did nothing to deserve the abuse, did nothing to initiate it), some schools will force both kids to shake hands, apologize to one another, and make up.

    As one author wrote (whose an expert – he’s been studying abuse/ bullying for many years), this approach does not work, and it is a form of injustice.

    You simply cannot parcel out blame in bullying cases as though it’s “50 – 50″ (equal), when you have one party (the bully) who is physically and/or emotionally stronger than the target.

    But anyway, a lot books about childhood bullying / workplace-bullying-among-adults paint the same situation, and it’s so backwards and infuriating: the bully gets protected by the system, while the victim gets no justice, gets run out of a job, etc.

  149. Daisy said: And yet, they sure do spend a lot of time and effort trying to refute female Christian bloggers, whether those female bloggers are just doing their own thing, or responding to Neo-Calvinism or gender complementarianism.

    West Coast Blogger’s response: image is paramount. The internet makes an even playing field for all when image is concerned – – – otherwise I (and other female bloggers) wouldn’t be given the time of day.

  150. Rafiki wrote:

    That extraordinary work of grace can’t be demanded instantaneously by selfish church leaders with their own power interests, or misguided American evangelical impulses to skip over people’s suffering because “good” Christians must have joy joy joy in their hearts hearts hearts need to simply “get over it and get more bible.”

    I had major depression since I was a kid and wasn’t healed of it until recently, and that is so apt a description of how most American Christians behave towards mental health problems (or any other kind of suffering).

    Where the Bible says to “rejoice with those who are rejoicing and weep with those who are weeping,” most Christians are great about the rejoice part, but unwilling to do the weeping.

    Their version of the Bible seems to read at that verse, “lecture, scold, and give platitudes to those who weep. Or just ignore them.”

  151. Julie Anne wrote:

    Daisy said: And yet, they sure do spend a lot of time and effort trying to refute female Christian bloggers, whether those female bloggers are just doing their own thing, or responding to Neo-Calvinism or gender complementarianism.
    West Coast Blogger’s response: image is paramount. The internet makes an even playing field for all when image is concerned – – – otherwise I (and other female bloggers) wouldn’t be given the time of day.

    Don’t you find it so telling that while the complementarians act like women should be ignored, or their views shouldn’t be taken seriously, they not only pay a lot of attention but take their editorials drop dead serious?

    If they really don’t think women should be teachers in any capacity (some might say women can teach other women), then what are they doing, in effect, listening to the teachings of Rachel Held Evans, the ladies of Wartburg Watch and any other blogs?

    I’m finding the whole thing so ironic and hypocritical, but I’m having a hard time articulating they why’s of it.

  152. “You might be surprised about what is being said out there in the wide world. Piper worship is everywhere. I talk to people who would have a real problem if I said that I disagreed with something Piper said or wrote.”

    No, no surprise here. I have a Facebook status update I’ve written but not posted expressing my dislike for Piper and why I’m tired of seeing my friends quote him on FB. I haven’t posted it because I’m not sure it would do any good at all except to create a bunch of arguments.

    But not everyone who loves Piper understands all of what he teaches. When I first came to my new church, my pastor held up Piper as someone he respected for his compassionate way of dealing with people. When I brought up Piper’s views on divorce and domestic violence, he said, “I didn’t know that Piper believed that, and believe me neither the church nor I agree with him.” Then later I had a similar conversation with an elder who also likes Piper, and once again I brought up specific teaching the elder didn’t know about, and he did not rebuke me, but rather listened and agreed in the end that we should be careful with celebrity pastors and not hang on their every word.

    Many times people just don’t know what Piper teaches on certain topics. I will bet if you asked the majority of evangelical Christians “Does God orchestrate evil?” they would not agree with him- though you would certainly find more among the reformed folk, especially those who are really into Piper.

    I understand what you are talking, about though. Piper love is a real problem, and not all people are mature enough to handle it when you criticize such a big name. This is why I haven’t yet posted that FB status update- I’m just not sure I want to generate the heat. But too many more quotes from Piper and I might not care about the heat any more.

    But my point to Eagle is, don’t let Piper define what you have to believe in order to be a Christian. You don’t accept that God is the orchestrator of evil? Good, you are in good company. I certainly agree with you, and I suspect most Christians through the ages would too. I wonder if even Calvin would agree with Piper on this one.

  153. Been There

    I do not believe that there will be a massive change. However, the downfall of the SGM model, along with the horrible scandals which will be dilineated in the lawsuits, may bring some small changes to the system. One thing is for sure, child sexual abuse will be handled differently. Also, some people who would have gotten sucked into an unjust  situation may be more prone to leave.

  154. Bridget

    Try this approach and see what sort of response that you get. Why is Piper correct on the sovereignty of God? Why would you reference him?  Could you give me an alternative explanation? I have found if you challenge people on the reason for their devotion, they get antsy that all they can say is “because everyone…” Also, why don’t you offer his explanation regarding “muscular women”, abuse for a season and how to give a man directions, along with utter silence in church on the part of women praying and reading Scripture. Many do not know of these bizarre things.

  155. Eagle wrote:

    @ Jeff S:
    Jeff I’ll post a longer, more detailed response later but remember…Calvin ran Geneva in the same way Mullah Omar ran Afghanistan at the height of the Taliban rule.
    But I’ve seen what Bridget is talking about…and I’m outside the faith. I have a SGM friend who loves SGM and his kool-aid factory of Redeemer of Arlington. I’ve told him that if some really sick stuff is being read by me in the Washington Post we’re going to have some heated talks. (We’re up to WW XXXIII on SGM) So with that let’s see how the day unfolds. But you have to remember Sovereign Grace is Mormonism 2.0.

    Just to be clear- I wasn’t necessarily appealing to Calvin as an example of anything. I actually have no views on Calvin positively or negatively because I haven’t studied him at all beyond a few google searches here and there. My point was just that Piper is not preaching a mainstream Christian view when he says that God orchestrates evil.

    And yes, I’ve definitely seen what Bridget is talking about.

  156. Jeff, I fear Piper has become “mainstream”. I see people from non REformed churches reading his books all the time. My friends in seeker churches focused on church growth love him. I have been astonished at his rise in popularity in the last 15 years.

    Maybe it is because I live at ground zero and it is simply just seeping over. I don’t know but he is a household name here not only in the SBC but in Presbyterian, Non Denominational churches, Methodist, etc.

    And he does not come out and say God orchestrates evil. Had he been that honest, he would not be so popular. His teaching if people analyze it comes to that conclusion but he does not outright say it. If folks can give his “Scream of the Damned” a pass, then there is no telling what they will believe from him.

  157. re: REformed churches – I’ve just ‘gotten’ why REformed is written that way, I kept thinking it was an upper case typo. I am so slow…

  158. Bridget hit on something above. And it is their definition of the Sovereignty of God. That is where they take every single debate. They take every single disagreement back to that concept and try and paint it so you are claiming you do not believe God is omnipotent if you dare bring up any free will at all. In many ways they make not only the Cross but God redundant.

    I find it ironic that they do not believe God is Sovereign enough to create beings who He gave the ability and allowance to reject Him.

  159. One definition of grace is the withholding of one’s power to control, as in the omnipotent God has withheld His power so that we may choose to love and serve Him (or not). A king with absolute power who abuses that power, and does not withhold it to allow people to choose, is known as a tyrant and is feared but not loved.

  160. For what it’s worth, “Scream of the Damned” is actually from RC Sproul, who you probably recall I respect a lot. But I am not in lock step with Sproul- there are a number of issue where I disagree with him. I don’t know why I’m saying that- I guess I just mean it in full disclosure.

    “And he does not come out and say God orchestrates evil.” Right- but that was my driving point. Though Piper may be popular, this view of God orchestrating evil is not- at least not as popular as he is. So I’m saying it should not be treated as a necessary doctrine of Christianity, especially if it is a significant barrier to faith.

  161. @ Jeff S:

    But my point to Eagle is, don’t let Piper define what you have to believe in order to be a Christian. You don’t accept that God is the orchestrator of evil? Good, you are in good company. I certainly agree with you, and I suspect most Christians through the ages would too. I wonder if even Calvin would agree with Piper on this one.

    I agree with what you are saying to Eagle. He, nor any Christian, should let their beliefs be defined by Piper, Calvin, or anyone else. They should be defined by how one understands the Bible as a Spirit filled Christian. We will have to take into consideration interpretations of the Bible, though. Calvin’s Institutes were written before the KJ translation. Therefore, the KJV, along with other later versions, are sprinkled with words that reflect Calvin’s perspective. I imagine that the older translations, before Calvin’s time, get some words wrong as well.

  162. “For what it’s worth, “Scream of the Damned” is actually from RC Sproul, who you probably recall I respect a lot”

    I did not know that originated with Sproul. If I remember correctly, both Piper and Mahaney preached Jesus was damned at Resolve in 2009.

  163. @ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:

    This is why it is dangerous to try to have one attribute of God trump all the others as “God’s most important attribute,” you end up with a warped perspective of God. All His attributes working perfectly together is what makes Him amazingly beautiful.

    It also seems to me that Jesus, God in the flesh, was very clear about what the most important commandments were for me — love of God and love of neighbor.

  164. dee wrote:

    Been There
    One thing is for sure, child sexual abuse will be handled differently.

    This. From the Sandusky scandal, the Boy Scouts cover ups, to the disregard of molested children in SGM (and many other churches), I think people’s awareness to this issue is awakening. I’d like to see some laws amended to better protect children. But, until then, we can use our collective voices to make a difference.

  165. “It also seems to me that Jesus, God in the flesh, was very clear about what the most important commandments were for me — love of God and love of neighbor”

    One of the simplist things my mom ever said to me was “If you want to know what God is like, look to Jesus of Nazareth”.

    Have you noticed that the focus is almost always on Paul as if Paul interprets Jesus? I think it is the other way around. Even Peter said Paul was hard to understand.

  166. Anon 1

    Much agreement…
    “Have you noticed that the focus is almost always on Paul as if Paul interprets Jesus? I think it is the other way around. Even Peter said Paul was hard to understand.”

    Yes – Seems most today in “the Abusive Religious system” focus on Paul…
    And “Ignore” or “Twist” Jesus – And what Jesus taught His Disciples.

    There was a time I had a hard time with Paul. I started to see many things Paul was saying, doing, that seemed way different then Jesus. So I went back to the Gospels and focused on what Jesus was saying.

    Today when questions arise…
    First course of action is finding out, trying to understand, what Jesus said and taught…
    Then understanding what Paul said and meant – in light of Jesus…
    First Jesus – Then reconciling what Paul said – With Jesus.

    When I can NOT align Paul – to match with Jesus…
    I just put it on the shelf – And stick with Jesus for the time being. Until revelation comes.
    Sometimes months – Sometimes years…

    Yes – Paul said many things, the apostles who walked with Jesus, found hard to understand.

    Still haven’t got it all figured out, still have some questions – but…
    Today I see Paul, and why he taught what he did, and what he meant, a lot differently.

  167. Haitch wrote:

    re: REformed churches – I’ve just ‘gotten’ why REformed is written that way, I kept thinking it was an upper case typo. I am so slow…

    OK. I’m slower. Tell me what you got.

  168. @ Anon 1

    “Have you noticed that the focus is almost always on Paul as if Paul interprets Jesus?”

    I would go even further, particularly in the case of Calvinistas, and say that they have ripped Jesus out of the Trinity and replaced him with Paul. I’ve listened to innumerable lectures by Calvinista seminary professors and to a man (no women allowed, of course) they quote Paul almost exclusively and rarely quote Jesus when discussing their unique doctrines.

    Also, for a view of Paul that is in sharp contrast to the oppressive Paul presented by conservative, I recommend the book Liberating Paul by Neil Elliott – I audited a class on Paul he taught at a seminary and came to see Paul as very much misused by conservatives.

  169. A. Amos Love, we can also come to a greater understanding of Paul’s words when we realize much of his writing was refuting the Judaizers who “spied out the liberty” of Jewish converts to bring them back under the law.

  170. “There was a time I had a hard time with Paul. I started to see many things Paul was saying, doing, that seemed way different then Jesus. So I went back to the Gospels and focused on what Jesus was saying”

    Me too. Now I read Paul totally different.

  171. “I would go even further, particularly in the case of Calvinistas, and say that they have ripped Jesus out of the Trinity and replaced him with Paul. I’ve listened to innumerable lectures by Calvinista seminary professors and to a man (no women allowed, of course) they quote Paul almost exclusively and rarely quote Jesus when discussing their unique doctrines.”

    I completely agree with this. This was particularly bad when the Calvinistas were busy promoting ESS a few years back.

    “Also, for a view of Paul that is in sharp contrast to the oppressive Paul presented by conservative, I recommend the book Liberating Paul by Neil Elliott – I audited a class on Paul he taught at a seminary and came to see Paul as very much misused by conservatives”

    I will check it out. I do not know what you mean by “conservatives” though. What paradigm are you using? Heirarchy? Inerrancy?

  172. Evie:

    Thanks for the time line on discovery. Wow, those deadlines are short, especially given that the suit is a class action.

    Hester:

    SGM may not have any money, but they may have had an insurance policy in place during the time of the events that would provide indemnity to SGM.

    I believe that this suit would continue regardless of whether there were avenues of compensation because the suit seems to be as much about asking for justice in ways other than compensation.

    I am concerned reading that an Amended Complaint has been filed, and the sort dealines on discovery.

    We’ll just have to wait and see.

  173. Anonymous

    Al Mohler should be ashamed of himself. So, his critique was that people were not respectful of strong leadership in SGM. Not one word about the victims. Now, once again, he will be forced to respond. Yeah, child abuse is really bad and all but when it is a good buddy-weeelllll he can’t be that bad, can he? This “friendship” will go down in Mohler’s life as an epci fail to do the right thing.

  174. @ Moniker:

    I am ill, too, and crying. Nobody should ever have to endure this and have no one to speak up for them. Congratulations SGM. From now on you will be considered little more than a child pornography ring in many people’s eyes.

  175. @ Anon 1

    “I do not know what you mean by “conservatives” though. What paradigm are you using? Heirarchy? Inerrancy?”

    Good point. By “conservative” in this context I mean those who use the Bible to advocate a socially conservative agenda of male supremacy, submission to authority, slavery apologists, etc.

  176. @ dee:

    I feel so bad for what so many children have endured because of the twisted view of leaders and leaders’ precious priorities which are NOT the priorities of Jesus Christ.

  177. I’m sure these scriptures have been posted on this blog before somewhere. They are just the first few that come immediately to mind:

    But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 19: 14

    “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!” Matthew 18: 6-7

    What Bible are you reading from SGM? Or do you worship your own pet doctrines? Is this how the Body of Christ operates? Is this the kind of example you’re setting?

  178. Dee:

    Did you mean to address that comment about Mohler to me?

    I posted comments addressing Evie and Hester??

  179. RE: dee on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 03:03 PM,

    I agree Dee. No matter how much back-pedaling he tries or how much damage control his handlers try and react with, at day’s end (when this whole imbroglio concludes) Mohler will have lost beau coup currency in the evangelical world.

  180. @ BeenThereDoneThat

    But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 19: 14

    You know, that brings to mind the infamous translation of Matthew 19:14 in the King James Bible “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” – A mistranslated verse that was used to justify the infliction of pain on countless children in the name of Godly “discipline”.

  181. “Upon information and belief, Paula Poe was not the only victim of this p-* ring operating within the School and Church.

    Upon information and belief, the p- ring’s victims included children who subsequently went on to prey upon other young children.”

    I am going to throw up. “Repeatedly abused by Defendent Tomzcak.” Words are failing me.

    * using this abbreviation so as to not draw horrible awful searches to TWW, hope that’s not too paranoid. :(

  182. Just went over to read it. Oh my word. I think we are seeing a bigger picture about the blackmail here. CJ has been obstructing justicefor victims of heinous crimes for a long time…. it seems.

    It would be interesting to go back and look at all the sermons, writings with a focus on sex. I have long been concerned that the evangelical laser like focus on sex is going to result in some sick stuff.

  183. Al Mohler: That arrogant quote you gave in defense of Mahaney to the Courier Journal about bloggers just not liking his strong leadership…you cannot scrub from the internet.

    You have protected and promoted some sick people when you hooked up with SGM.

  184. @ Eagle:

    Eagle,
    I hope you can access that SGMsurvivors link that is posted here. I couldn’t possibly repeat what was written. It’s the sordid details of people who were molested as children. Can you imagine experiencing something like that in church and then struggling to find out who God really is? It will turn your stomach.

  185. @ Anon 1:

    “If folks can give his ‘Scream of the Damned’ a pass, then there is no telling what they will believe from him.”

    The Scream of the Damned is just weird, no matter where it originated. I remember one of the guys on that Resolved video saying “we are saved because He screamed.” What?!?!?! That’s just plain wrong. Jesus is never even said to have screamed in the Bible and it certainly isn’t part of the atonement.

  186. From the courier journal link:

    “Sovereign Grace has not yet filed a formal response. But it has issued statements after the original lawsuit saying it deplores sexual abuse and has policies to prevent it, while saying the complaint contained mischaracterizations and amounted to a religious-freedom challenge by trying to get a court to second-guess pastoral guidance.”

    Amazing they try to make protecting abusers a religious freedom issue. Sounds like Islam Sharia law.

    You bet we are second guessing”pastoral guidance”.

  187. @ Eagle:
    I just bought a mega sized pkg of Scott yesterday. Otherwise I’d be looking you up. But, we’re a large family. I guess we can never have too much.

  188. Anon 1 wrote:

    Al Mohler: That arrogant quote you gave in defense of Mahaney to the Courier Journal about bloggers just not liking his strong leadership…you cannot scrub from the internet.
    You have protected and promoted some sick people when you hooked up with SGM.

    Dee, perhaps you could do a new banner header on the front page of TWW with Big Al’s quote noted above?

    I am enraged right now.

  189. Eagle wrote:

    Is this the Gospel? And these same people attack the secular world as being corrupt.
    I juts feel sick.

    No- this is the work of evil, straight up. This is not the church.

    I feel sick as well.

  190. …Is that THE Larry Tomczak who just got added to that lawsuit or his son? Didn’t Tomczak Sr. co-found SGM, or am I confusing him with someone else? (Abuse spanning 25 years would seem to indicate it was Tomczak Sr., unless his son is older than I thought he was.)

    This seems to have just gotten a lot worse for SGM. I’m having trouble picturing a scenario in which a jury would look favorably on this information, unless it comes out that it is all completely fake (which I don’t believe for a second). All SGM needs to do is look at the current popular perception of the Catholic church to know how this will likely turn out for them.

    Also, when did the Harrises get involved with CLC?

  191. I’m sorry. I thought it had his first name. I guess when we see the redacted document later, we’ll get the full name. But I hardly think it is Larry’s son, since his eldest is about 30 years old.

  192. Yes, it is extremely perverted. It is not natural or acceptable, especially for a father to see a daughter/female relative naked even before puberty, let alone after. The fact that this was a grown woman with a developed body is unbelievable. It is also really sad that this adult thought that they had to be subject to this kind of abuse. I had a father who thought it was acceptable to whip his children with a belt well after puberty (not naked, of course and thank God), but who was abusive, nonetheless. One day it had come to me that I didn’t have to allow this man to beat me anymore. And I began to fight back physically. But you know what people in the church did and said to me when I began to fight back, that I was part of the problem. That I needed to own my own wrongs in the situations. They failed to acknowledge my RIGHT to DEFEND MYSELF in the face of ABUSE. Needless to say, it effed up my head and my relationship with God. And it caused huge amounts of depression and suicidal thoughts within me. It caused great brokeness, self-hatred and a mistrust for others. My relationships suffered because of it. I had a lot to be healed from. Yet, it has happened, but not without work and hardship, but nevertheless, I have been restored in so many ways. I’ll never let anyone in the church ever tell me what to do again with my life. It’s my own life and I”ll do what I darn well please. These people are not equipped to counsel, neither are they qualified to do so.

    My heart goes out to these victims. There are no words.

  193. Anon1–

    Seeing that he knew everything else about what went on all those years, I seriously doubt it. I sure would like to know, though.

  194. Rafiki said~

    “Anon 1 wrote:

    Al Mohler: That arrogant quote you gave in defense of Mahaney to the Courier Journal about bloggers just not liking his strong leadership…you cannot scrub from the internet. You have protected and promoted some sick people when you hooked up with SGM.

    Dee, perhaps you could do a new banner header on the front page of TWW with Big Al’s quote noted above?”

    Excellent idea. And let’s not to forget Ligon Duncans’s little gem (which has disappeared from the Reformation21 website):

    “I would… encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.” (quote- Kinnon.tv)

    My heart goes out to everyone hurt by SGM. I haven’t read the new post yet.
    It sounds horrible. May God have mercy on the victims.

  195. Hmm….I went to read the amended lawsuit and I just can’t. Just reading what has been shared in these comments is triggering. My heart goes out to those women – and the little girls they were. I am saddened. But I am not shocked. This is something that is not unique to SGM. Pedophiles have a network and like attracts like. And church leadership is a great setup for them. It just reminds me why I don’t trust churches.

    Honestly, I tried to watch Wade’s sermon this week and couldn’t. I realized I still just don’t trust men. And that’s sad because I believe Wade’s sermons are good (or I wouldn’t try to watch them).

    One of the managers where I work is a registered child sex offender and that has been/is difficult. God, help your people to understand the depth of the effects these crimes have on the victims and those who love them. I’ve heard so many say that children are resilient and they don’t remember these things. Just don’t make a fuss and let it go. This is absolutely false.

    God help….

  196. Diane wrote:

    “I would… encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.” (quote- Kinnon.tv)

    Because SGM is God’s Predestined Elect, and God’s Predestined Elect Can Do No Wrong.

    Humbly, of course.


  197. Jeff S
    wrote:

    Eagle wrote:

    Is this the Gospel? And these same people attack the secular world as being corrupt.
    I juts feel sick.

    No- this is the work of evil, straight up. This is not the church.

    “Nowhere do we tempt so succesfully as at the very foot of the altar!”
    — Screwtape

  198. Hester wrote:

    The Scream of the Damned is just weird, no matter where it originated. I remember one of the guys on that Resolved video saying “we are saved because He screamed.” What?!?!?! That’s just plain wrong. Jesus is never even said to have screamed in the Bible and it certainly isn’t part of the atonement.

    The Gospel according to Sam Kinnison?

  199. Anon 1 wrote:

    It would be interesting to go back and look at all the sermons, writings with a focus on sex. I have long been concerned that the evangelical laser like focus on sex is going to result in some sick stuff.

    I have long maintained that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different direction.

  200. Dear all

    To clear up a couple of points

    I think The Scream of the Damned phrase was first used by CJ Mahaney at the Resolved Conference in 2008 and then preached on by Mr Piper after the tea break. You can find details here

    http://crosschurch.net/the-cross-the-scream-of-the-damned/

    I have absolutely nothing to do with SGM. As I’ve said before, until I came across TWW I had never heard of them nor had I heard of most of the ‘players’. So, not for the first time Dee, you elevate your opinion to fact (and in doing so cause deliberate offense, in my opinion. Cancel our dance :-) ). It’s a bit like the Alexa stats.

    I have no nefarious agenda. I am concerned that with so much comment whizzing through the internet about the forthcoming court case it is going to be difficult to pick a jury who have absolutely no prior knowledge of the accused and that would prejudice a fair trial.

    Church discipline is not the only court to which these matters should be referred. It is self-evident that if a crime has been committed then criminal prosecutors must be involved from the outset.

    And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.

    None of the above is specifically Calvinist, but it is Biblical.

  201. Correction it WAS R C Sproul who saot it forst here

    Nowhere in Scripture is the reality of God’s wrath more sharply manifested than in the forsaking of His Messiah. To be cursed of God is to be cut off from His presence and all of His benefits. The Incarnate Christ who enjoyed intimate personal fellowship with the Father, such as no man had ever enjoyed, was suddenly and completely cut off. Once the sin of man was imputed to Him, He became the virtual incarnation of evil. The load He carried was repugnant to the Father. God is too holy to even look at iniquity. God the Father turned His back upon the Son, cursing Him to the pit of hell while on the cross. Here was the Son’s ‘descent into hell.’ Here the fury of God raged against Him. His scream was the scream of the damned. For us.” R.C. Sproul, Tabletalk magazine, “My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?” (April 1990), p. 6.

  202. gavin white wrote:

    And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.

    That’s the point, Gavin. You seem to be saying that that since we are all affected,we should shut up because talking about it makes us look bad. You don’t seem to be able to “hear” that abused people are told to shut up, and that is exactly what allows the abuse to continue. The truth is that talking about it is the only thing that makes it stop. This SGM scandal does affect the whole body of Christ, and it needs to stop – at SGM and elsewhere. Being quiet and polite does not get the job done. The stories should cause outrage among Christians and non-Christians and that is what will cause fear in the predators and strengthen the rest of us. We are mad as hell and we are not going to take it any more.

    Your advice is not received well because it echoes the manipulation of the abuser. “Be quiet. Don’t tell. You’re just as bad because you did it too.”

  203. Dana
    For the sake of repeating myself,what I am saying does not echo the manipulation of the abuser and it is time you and Moniker realised it. Talking about it does not make it stop, only a successful prosecution might. And that will only happen if you stop cheering from the sidelines and prejudicing the case.

  204. Gavin –

    Saying it doesn’t make it so, Gavin. If people respond to you as if you are an abuser manipulating them, you may repeat yourself ad in finitum. It only reassures us that we are doing the right thing. Talking about it does make it stop – it alerts people to what is happening in their own lives, it confirms the uneasy feelings that people have about situations and it give them courage and the information they need to stop it.

    “I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” -Elie Wiesel

  205. Gavin, I’m sure they’ll have no problem finding 12 people (or however many there will be) in Montgomery County who have no prior knowledge of Sovereign Grace Ministries, in spite of our discussing it on the internet. Even you yourself said that you never hear of SGM until you read about it on TWW. The best way to stop it is for the members of the Body of Christ to be aware of what’s going on. We are the ones who must stop it from happening in the first place, and that won’t happen if the members of the “family” are kept in the dark.

  206. And I meant to say that even you never heard of SGM until you read about it here, and how many average American citizens do you think pay read blogs like this? To say that discussions on the internet will make it impossible to seat an impartial jury is quite a stretch.

  207. @ Gavin:

    I promise you, if I were to mention SGM to the average non-Christian on the ground, they would not know what I talking about. As you pointed out with the Alexa stats, there are hundreds of thousands of sites that are read much more than TWW, and in all honesty the Christian blogosphere (whether liberal or conservative) caters to a relatively small niche community. They will have no trouble finding an unbiased jury because the average non-Christian or nominal Christian on the ground does not read the Christian blogosphere. If they could do it with the Cheshire home invasion, they can certainly do it with SGM.

    If you want the jury pool to remain unbiased, you should be picking on news outlets like the AP and the Washington Post for dragging the story into the national light, as they are much more likely to be read/seen by the average guy. Yes, the Christian blogosphere broke the story, but the AP, etc. didn’t have to pick it up.

  208. Addendum @ Gavin:

    Also, at the risk of repeating myself:

    1. You post the Alexa stats and tell Dee not to get puffed up (presumably because nobody actually reads her site);
    2. You then claim that TWW will make it hard for the authorities to find an unbiased jury.

    I hope you can see the glaring contradiction between these two statements. Do people read TWW or not?

  209. gavin white wrote:

    I have no nefarious agenda. I am concerned that with so much comment whizzing through the internet about the forthcoming court case it is going to be difficult to pick a jury who have absolutely no prior knowledge of the accused and that would prejudice a fair trial.

    Not likely. The NHL lockout ended and play starts this week. Both the lockout and the start to the season have received much more blog and news coverage than SGM yet you could easily find a jury of folks unaware that either event has taken place.

    And now that you’ve returned, can you address the question from a few days ago regarding whether you earn money from selling books, preaching, music, or any other such thing to the Christian world?

  210. Hester said,

    I promise you, if I were to mention SGM to the average non-Christian on the ground, they would not know what I talking about.

    Hester,

    Agreed. SGM just isn't on the radar screen for non-Christians.  I have mentioned SGM and Mahaney to some of my Christian friends, and even they are clueless.  I tell them they are very fortunate. :-)

  211. “And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.”

    We would not want to make the rest of the Body of Christ uncomfortable with negative truths or by supporting the victims of the “Body of Christ”. Thank you Gavin, such wisdom and compassion. (Sounds more like being concerned for the protection of th gurus who associate with Mahaney)

    “None of the above is specifically Calvinist, but it is Biblical.”

    Your interpretation. Now try, agai,n to shut people up. Silence is what caused all this in the first place.

  212. Also, at the risk of repeating myself:

    1. You post the Alexa stats and tell Dee not to get puffed up (presumably because nobody actually reads her site);
    2. You then claim that TWW will make it hard for the authorities to find an unbiased jury.

    I hope you can see the glaring contradiction between these two statements. Do people read TWW or not?”

    Hester, Here is what I have observed in Calvinista land. They get outside their group think bubble and go on non group think blogs to try and shame and rebuke folks into shutting up. Since, in the their bubble they have truth and everyone else is wrong, they are not preparted for thinking people’s comebacks. Then they get nasty and go for the personal angle.

    The whole point is for you to feel like a worm and for them to continue in their insistence they are biblical and you aren’t. Blogging has not been good for their movement.

    So supporting people who have been cruelly abused by what Gavin calls the Body of Christ is wrong but he is right that we should not discuss it. Sounds like a perfect tactic for SGM.

  213. By the way, folks, Gavin is using the exact same tactics SGM used a while back to shame folks on reading blogs.

    Did anyone see Driscoll’s latest tweet about blogging? Sounds like the typical arrogant Reformed response to blogs they don’t like even because they do not control the communication”

    “For God so loved the world he did not send a blogger to pontificate about what others were doing. He sent his son to get stuff done!”

    Isn’t he deep in the way he twists scripture and ignores his own reality of blogging?

  214. Gavin, I am more concerned about having Reformed types on there like you who appear to (ed. note)ultimately believe God planned and directed the abuse of these children through SGM. Using His Name, of course. AFter all, God directs every molecule in the Calvinista paradigm.

  215. Gavin

    Oh good night! People always boo and cheer from the sidelines. Everyone has an opinion on cases like Sandusky, etc and the jury still seems to get the job done. For exampel, look at that Catholic church settlements. Now, back to obscurity…

  216. “Talking about it does not make it stop”

    You need to get educated on this issue. You are clueless. Talking about it not only stops it but can prevent some of it. In fact, where it is talked about the perverts leave and go someplace where it is shameful to talk about it. Near you, sounds safe for them.

  217. Gavin

    I am impressed that you are so concerned about a fair trial. If I were you, I would find a venue that is far more important than this one and go change the world. The prosecutors of this world need your input so chop, chop.

  218. “And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’.”

    What? We are to have no discernment, wisdom?

  219. Hester

    Yes, that’s it. Gavin should toodle on over to the blogs at the major newsmedia and share his wisdom, along with quotes from the scream of the damned, over there. He could really make a difference.

  220. anon1

    Gavin is here for a purpose. I have been observing his comments and his trajectory since he arrived. He has been throwing firebombs and then denying he was- claiming he was only exhibiting superior British humor that your poor blog queen could not understand because she is sooooo stupid.  There is more to his presence than meets the eye.

    He is most frustrated that his logical arguments did not work so he is reverting to the typical game of “diss your opponent.”I wonder-did he bet with some “friends” that he could “take us down” by his obviously superior arguments?

    Anyhoo, we shall endure…

  221. Hester
    The Alexa stats, if you believe them, show that TWW has a very respectable audience given that in March 2012 there were 644,275,754 active websites (figure courtesy of Netcraft). And from what I’ve read so far, unbiased is not a word I would associate with your average Joe over there.

    Anon
    You really must stop jumping to conclusions, especially when they are wrong and only show your bias.

    Concerned for the kids
    Not that it’s any of your business but I don’t make any money from any sort of ministry. How do you earn your living?

    Dana
    At least we have Eli Wiesel in common. “To save the life of a single child, no effort is superfluous. To make a tired old man Smile is to perform an essential task. To defeat injustice and misfortune, if only for one instant, for a single victim, is to invent a new reason to hope” You should be thankful that the internet is a defamation free zone, given your remarks.

  222. Dee
    Been there, done that, which is why I linked with you on Linkedin, just to give you an idea of my background.

    I’m not interested in taking you down. Unlike you I don’t carry a gun.

  223. “Unlike you I don’t carry a gun”

    Are you even allowed to own one there?

    “You really must stop jumping to conclusions, especially when they are wrong and only show your bias.”

    Gavin, you are a vague and “seed planting” communicator on purpose so you have some plausible deniability when you need it. It works with a lot of peple. Just not me.

  224. And in between posts- while you’ve all been spitting fire and venom – like the good complementarian that I am, I’ve done the housework and am now off to do some shopping.
    :-) :-) :-)

  225. Wow Gavin, a little sensitive, are we? I never said you were an abuser. Of course, slapping “Biblical” onto your advice to shut up doesn’t help your case any. Red flag. If you want to make any headway here, telling us to shut up in a Biblical fashion probably won’t get the response you are looking for. Again, it sounds a lot like what the victims are told. Doesn’t matter that you don’t like hearing that.

  226. Anon

    Just caught your reply. You and Eagle do love plausible deniability. I promise you that I will try it some time. Anyway off to the shops, feather duster in my holster.

  227. Dana
    Once more before I go. Stick to Eli Wiesel. Read what he has to say about creating an encounter, memory and forgiveness.

  228. Thanks Gavin. I’m sure I will find it much more enlightening than “Shut up. It’s Biblical. I said so.”

  229. gavin white wrote:

    Dee
    Been there, done that, which is why I linked with you on Linkedin, just to give you an idea of my background.
    I’m not interested in taking you down. Unlike you I don’t carry a gun.

    I don’t carry a gun either. Pssst . . . your bias is showing.

    “And from what I’ve read so far, unbiased is not a word I would associate with your average Joe over there.”

    I lived in Britain, and people there are very outspoken. Our cultures are not so different. Isn’t it wonderful that we have the freedom to express our thoughts? Some cultures are not so fortunate. Some religions are not so fortunate.

  230. Gavin
    I have decided to review Matt Redmond’s new book ASAP. Your conversation has led me to this conclusion. The Reformation changed the world in many respects. The idea of the preisthood of the believer, the little guy being as important as the king is exhibited itself in the art of the day. The little guy, the “nobody” was depicted in his/her day to day life-the baker, the maid, etc.

    I am a nobody. I am not related to any of the “au courant” pastors. When I started the blog, I had a few thoughts of my own that I wanted to share and see if anyone wanted to talk. And some did-more than I imagined.God has given the internet to people like me as well as the influential and the cool. The fact that you attempt  to denigrate my efforts exposes your bias.

    I am not in this for the notoriety. I am in this to speak against abuses of the church and to defend those who have been hurt. I get no money for this effort and it takes well over 40 hours of my time each week. I am blessed to have a husband who supports me in this effort, paying the bills for tech support. Also, my tech support guy gives me a low price because he has an interest in this project and is part of a group of friends who are supportive as well. 

    Unitl you brought it up, I had no interest in my “ratings.” Still don’t. However, we have found that Google searches now put our blog at the top of searches for various subjects that we cover. For that, I am grateful. The word is getting out into the small community of evangelicals who sometimes act as if they rule the world.

    There are many ways to “take a person down” and you are attempting to do so by your words. I get it. If you want to hang around blogs that have “ratings” go on over to the NY Times. I am sure they will love your “scream of the damned ” quote over there. They will be coming to the Lord in droves.

     

  231. Dee – Yeah, I’m a little weirded out by Gavin enlisting Elie Weisel on his “shut up” side of the argument. *Shrug*

  232. For several weeks, I’ve had to drop out of keeping up with comments here and occasionally commenting myself, due to a major deadline project. So, just an observation, perhaps heightened by my absence:

    It seems to me that the recent threads have gradually become more about Gavin White and his comments and his form of Calvinism and responding to all of that, than about recovery from spiritual abuse and other research topics at hand.

    I understand that the TWW forum is relatively open, and the last time this happened was with “Jimmy.” But maybe, Mr. White, what you have want of is really your own blog?

  233. And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.

    This is exactly why it needs to be talked about and “outside” authorities and help need to be saught. “Families” generally want to keep the problem covered up because of the shame and pain involved. The “Family” is concerned about the “Family Name” instead of the person harmed, firstly, and stopping the perpetrator from continuing . . . which is what happens IF NO ONE SPEAKS ABOUT IT. (Excuse the small shout out here folks). We have seen the hush/hush played out in families, denominations, and countries. It has only made the problem worse.

    I am quite sure that God is capable of assuring that His name is not tarnished, Gavin. Where there is light, darkness must flee.

  234. gavin white wrote:

    Concerned for the kids
    Not that it’s any of your business but I don’t make any money from any sort of ministry. How do you earn your living?

    Business analytics.

    So you don’t have any connection to SGM, & don’t have any financial connection to Christianity, but just showed up out of the blue irrationally defending child abusers, manipulators, and blackmailers?

    I though for sure the reason you defended them was because you made money of the captive audience in some way ( or hoped to in the future). If you have no connection to them yet feel the need to defend child abusers, and it’s not driven by money or relationship, the alternate explanations are pretty undesirable.

    After money and relationship, I can’t think of why someone would passionately defend what they did to kids (& adults) over decades.

    Please enlighten us on why it appears that (ed. clarification) that you choose to back the molesters and molestation enablers in this discussion? I eagerly await your reasoning.

  235. Maybe Gavin believes that right doctrine ensures holy living? I say this without any irony or criticism.

    I dare say, that many of us (myself included) fell for this type of thinking and had a defensive reaction when one of our doctrinal heroes fell from grace.

  236. Examine any “hero” of the faith and you will find the hero has flaws and is no more a hero than anyone else. They usually just had a certain area that they excelled in and had good connections. The real heros are the ones you will never hear about this side of eternity.

    You’re correct, Doubtful, right doctrine does not ensure holy living nor does it ensure anything else in man’s life. Believing in and exemplifying Christ are entirely different.

  237. It is my prayer and hope that these stories never die. And if you think that your comments here will shut down the discussion, or even change the focus or direction of the discussion, then you are severely outnumbered. People are no longer concerned about “fairness” when it is well-known that these men covered up the rapes, sodomization, physical abuse, etc… in these families and victims. You should know that the truth shall set us free. Yet, in your world, only truths that you are comfortable with or ones that dont shake your world view, are truths that should be told. I think you’re afraid Gavin. I think people like you are shaking in your boots because your lives depend so heavily on your theological beliefs, your religious beliefs, that there is no room for difference or change. Your entire existence up to this point is hinged upon your beliefs–which are fallible and can easily be proven wrong. Therefore, I feel sorry for you. (deletion by editor)

    As someone who suffered abuse as a child and a young person, I find it deplorable that people like you think that THEY can tell the world how to handle such situations. Gavin, your heart and mind are overcome with infection. I feel sorry for any child, any adult, any broken or hurt person that would ever cross your path looking for comfort and safety. You are not safe. And you are no safehaven for the suffering.

    If God truly is the author and director of our paths, I pray that he would never allow a hurt soul to come near you. You, sir, are a cancer and a danger to the abused, to the hurt, the disenfranchised, the marginalized and anyone in dire need of the love of Jesus Christ.

    Your concerns and focus are absent of any real tangible, or felt concern for such heinous crimes and offenses towards the innocent. Maybe you are such a person that would only get it if someone stuck their foot in your rear. But then, with a heart like yours and beliefs such as yours, maybe not. Afterall, it would be God’s Sovereignty, wouldn’t it?

    These men you keep defending, and yes, you are defending them, are so far from any qualification that the Bible you depend on would hold them to. Yet, you argue for them. If who you are is representative of the church, then I would surely vow to never step foot in another. You are unfit to represent Christ to others.

  238. doubtful

    I want Gavin to know that I was NOT elected to be the 8th grade class president and only served one year on the student council. I can’t sew and I was terrible in sports and proably rank in the bottom 3% of the population in coordination. But, puppies and small children seem to like me.

  239. Dee’s note, through the eyes of a complementarian:

    I was NOT elected to be the 8th grade class president (of course, cuz you’re a girl) and only served one year on the student council (amazed a chick lasted that long). I can’t sew (odd, since that’s your job) and I was terrible in sports (cuz you’re a girl) and proably rank in the bottom 3% of the population in coordination ( as do most gals) But, puppies and small children seem to like me (which is why you should be at home with them).

    Fixed that for you, dee, so the SGM fans can understand it!

  240. Trina, Concerned for the kids, Dee, Brad, Dana, et al

    I have already explained – and it is documented on the blog – how I first came across TWW. I responded to a post on the Puritans not being so precious. Quite by accident, no agenda. I had already been in discussion with the writer of the original article – Thabite Anyabwile prior to that.

    I have praised the aims of TWW and offered to help if I can as I have spent a large part of my career combatting human trafficking, slavery and most recently terrorism. I have had a good deal of success in bringing offenders to justice. I’m associated with a number of European and International NGOs dealing with victims of abuse. So, yes, your insinuations are offensive to me.

    I claim to be a Christian and I try to be faithful in living my life before God. I am conservative, reformed evangelical. I’ve studied Christian theology of all hues, Judaism, Hasidism, Islam. I’ve specialised in research on cults. I’m well read in the history of oppression, whether it be political or racial. I’ve said all this before on other threads.

    I’ve been astonished at what I’ve learned here at TWW about American evangelicalism. But I’ve also been appalled at your own lack of tolerance, balance and fair play. And when I say so, all hell breaks loose.

    I’m not interested in a person’s background and I’m not trying to bring anyone down. I don’t play games. I do try to be funny now and then but it invariably backfires.

    Nor do I want to start a blog of my own or take over an existing one. I’m simply happy to be here.

    And my favourite Australian Shiraz is called Willy Willy.

  241. @ Gavin:

    “The Alexa stats, if you believe them, show that TWW has a very respectable audience given that in March 2012 there were 644,275,754 active websites (figure courtesy of Netcraft). And from what I’ve read so far, unbiased is not a word I would associate with your average Joe over there.”

    Unclear on the antecedent of “unbiased”…but if you were referring to TWW, who ever claimed that this site was unbiased? No one has perfectly unbiased opinions and certainly most bloggers don’t (otherwise why would they be blogging?). Your bias is certainly showing through on this thread, as is Dee’s. And that’s fine. I, for one, prefer sifting through and understanding someone’s bias to get at the facts over pining for “unbiased” sources that don’t exist.

    Also, none of the above disproves my point about the jury pool at all. According to Wikipedia, Montgomery County, MD has a population of 971,777. Are you seriously claiming that the efforts of TWW and SGM Survivors will bias the jury pool to such an extent that the Montgomery County court(s) will not be able to find 12 people who have no opinion on and/or have never heard of SGM?

  242. Addendum @ Gavin:

    BTW, I do agree that many of the accusations that have been leveled at you are very much over-the-top…but I must also agree that your efforts at communication here would probably be much more successful if you could explain your position more clearly. (Your post at 2:50 today I found to be quite clear, and thank you.) I know I have found your comments to be unnecessarily vague several times. I know you probably do not intend this but this is how it is being perceived.

  243. @ gavin white:
    Good monologue. It definitely improves my perspective of you. But I’d like to know why you didn’t state any of this earlier instead of taking potshots at us for being gun-slinging wild-westerners. Or posting Alexa links and telling us not to get “puffed up.” If we were being so uncivilized in our discourse, why did you not set a better example of your Christian living and state what you just stated before. You contributed to the inflammatory remarks in this thread. Please do not play the injured party here. I do, however, appreciate what you’ve just shared. Thank you.

  244. @ gavin white on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 02:50 PM:

    In my earlier comment [Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 10:08 AM], the way I wrote it may have implied something I didn’t mean, or left it open to unintended inference, so I’ll try again.

    For several months I’ve had to back out of keeping up here, while editing a book on deadline and then compiling an 80+ page synthesis plus content analysis of a major case study. The word center of my brain’s been supersaturated without the addition of blog content!

    As that case study project is finally winding down, over the past few days I’ve just started to catch up here. But the content analysis side of my brain is still going because of the case study, and I’m still in a pattern-recognition mode.

    I think it’s an accurate observation that the recent days’ threads have revolved significantly about your comments and responses to them. (And I do recall it being months ago that you started commenting and also recall that I found some helpful points in your comments.)

    I’ve been part of the commenting community here at TWW for about a year now, and I’ve seen this pattern happen only one other time that I can recall, with Jimmy, when an increasingly large percentage of interaction surrounded his comments, many of which seemed *designed* to agitate … actually, more to inflame.

    I hope the same thing isn’t happening where a commenter ends up dominating and it ends up being destructive, and I’ll take your statement at face value that you have no desire to take over an existing blog (i.e., this one).

    But it does seem readers are taking your comments as provocative (even if you’re not designing them to be inflammatory). I don’t know if its because of differences in overall theological perspective, national and/or cultural backgrounds, and/or learning styles that focus on concrete versus abstract.

    On that last point about learning styles, maybe Hester’s addendum [Hester on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 03:26 PM] helps by asking you to include more details to counteract perceived vagueness.

    I think misunderstandings due to learning style differences are as much a barrier to successful communication as culture clash. And, from what I understand about the Myers-Briggs Temperament Indicator, the American dominant/preferred MBTI is ESTJ – which would prefer specifics, experience-based details, and facts over “squishy,” broad/open principles, for instance. Since my MBTI profile is basically the polar opposite of what is culturally expected here, it’s very hard at times to make myself understand by the dominant MBTI group!

    It’s a challenge to connect, especially cross-culturally. I’ve been blogging and commenting online for almost 10 years now. (Symbolic that I started on April Fool’s day, 2003?!) I still find it a challenge to write clearly and work toward “listening” when there is no tone of voice, facial expression, body language to go with just the words in print.

    I don’t have any other solutions to suggest, just a caution about what I see as an escalation in tension, and a hope that we can figure it out so it isn’t a distraction or destructive, driving people of any perspective from participating in constructive discussion …

  245. Brad
    I tried the test and came out INFJ.

    I appreciate your comments and what Hester said.

    Been there done that
    It wasn’t a monologue, it was an explanation, one I’ve given in part in other threads in this blog. Nor am I playing the injured party. I am very unhappy at the slurs. But I’ll get over it.

  246. @ Brad:

    “But it does seem readers are taking your comments as provocative (even if you’re not designing them to be inflammatory). I don’t know if its because of differences in overall theological perspective, national and/or cultural backgrounds, and/or learning styles that focus on concrete versus abstract.”

    Excellent summary of the situation IMO. In light of Gavin’s explanation at 2:50 (esp. the part about human trafficking and broad learning about other religions), he likely has much to offer even if the broader community here disagrees with him on some issues (complementarianism being the most obvious pressure point). I’ve seen no evidence so far that Gavin is in the employ of any dark forces, pro-abuser, or some kind of moral monster, and I think it’s unfortunate that these things have been said. As you said, I don’t think Gavin intended to be inflammatory/provocative, though as I pointed out above I think it would be helpful if he explained himself in more detail as he did at 2:50.

    I hope this is encouraging/helpful. Thank you for your “peacemaking” efforts, Brad. : )

  247. Addendum @ Brad:

    “I’ve been part of the commenting community here at TWW for about a year now, and I’ve seen this pattern happen only one other time that I can recall, with Jimmy, when an increasingly large percentage of interaction surrounded his comments, many of which seemed *designed* to agitate … actually, more to inflame.”

    You are correct. From what I read of him, Jimmy was basically a “drive-by shooter” whereas Gavin usually responds to any objections.

  248. I realize that because Gavin and I probably share most of our theology my support might not seem like much, but I really think he and Jimmy are very different types. I do see empathy from Gavin and a desire to do good.

    And I have seen some of what he’s said here- I know it easy to feel like it is OK to criticize those who are reformed, whereas the same words the other way would probably be jumped on rather quickly. I do NOT think Deb and Dee are this way, but I think the commenters can be at times. But I guess that is part of the free-flowing culture they’ve cultivated. I have to be a big boy and not get my feelings too hurt.

    Having said that, I do wish Gavin would reconsider his views on the value of publicly calling out public teachers on their harmful teaching and sinful behavior. I think that when public leaders teach things and behave in ways that hurt others, they need to be exposed. I think there are multiple examples in the epistles of exactly this, and it needs to be done.

    I was hurt badly by the teaching of John Piper- and if no one ever calls him on the effects of what he teaches, how will people know not to listen to him? How will he know that he needs to repent? The call of the church is not to stand aside and let the church oppress people, especially in the name of Jesus.

    There is no doubt in my mind at all if these same SGM allegations were made about any secular institution, or even a non-evangelical Christian one, evangelicals would spill loads of digital ink explaining exactly why their godlessness or lack of reverence for the inspired word of God caused these problems. But we are called to judge within the church, not the outside. We need to care for victims, both those in the past and the potential ones in the future. This means exposing sin and doing justice.

  249. @ gavin white: So this explains your insensitive comments on slavery in the Americas a while back?!!

    I don’t understand you at all, dude – you seem to really enjoy defending calvinistas *and* taking sarcastic potshots at many of us… and then you claim to be an advocate for the oppressed?

    Sheesh. My BS meter is off the scale right now.

  250. Hi all

    Blogger opinion here. Jimmy was a serious problem. Sometimes we are privy to information due to offline communications.  I am happy to compare this blog’s acceptance of difficult comments and commenters with other blogs. We are far more accepting of differing points of views, even when it makes us cringe. Jimmy well earned his two weeks on ice. He has obviously chosen not to return unless he is coming in under another name. I rarely check IP addresses and try to figure out who is who. I prefer to give people as much anonymity as possible. 

    We make no bones about our bias. We are concerned about church abuse and focus on the plight of the victims. If someone wants to find a site that focuses on supporting mega idol pastors, it is quite easy to do so.There are lots of them. Start at TGC, go on over to 9 Marks and follow the antics of SGM. 

    Gavin is still allowed to comment here despite the fact that I find his writing style offputting and occasionally derogatory, in my opinion, towards others. Once again, we have received emails of people who have not been pleased with Gavin’s style.  I don’t blame them. I am not, either. However, it is my wish to listen to those who I do not find easy and so he continues, in spite of his rather difficult remarks aimed at some of us, particularly me. 

    As for his response to “objection” I dislike the “shoot first and then pretend that you really meant to be nice” to be a difficult style with which to converse. However, he is still here.

    In the end, we are all unknowns, including Gavin. I am happy he says he is concerned about human trafficking. So am I. But, we grow to know one another when both sides play fair. I have the capability of quickly collating the comments by one individual. I have looked over Gavin’s and there are some things with which I am not pleased. So, old Dee will bide her time and listen and watch.

  251. @ brad/futuristguy: That’s kind of you, brad, and you’ve got some good points… but I honestly can’t remember another UK-based commenter who was so supposedly “misunderstood” on this site, nor who was inclined to make snarky slams against other commenters.

    Agreed that some things don’t “translate” well, but hey – a lot of us Colonials seem to love English TV shows and books (both lit and “low culture”-type books), so I find myself feeling awfully skeptical regarding the supposed cultural gap here. (Not to say that there are no cultural differences – the UK itself is very culturally divers! – but still…)

  252. numo wrote:

    @ gavin white: So this explains your insensitive comments on slavery in the Americas a while back?!!
    I don’t understand you at all, dude – you seem to really enjoy defending calvinistas *and* taking sarcastic potshots at many of us… and then you claim to be an advocate for the oppressed?
    Sheesh. My BS meter is off the scale right now.

    Mine, too. I’m trying to consider what Brad, Hester, and JeffS shared, and even what Gavin recently shared. But I’ve gone back to the beginning of the thread, and he started throwing “slurs” completely unprovoked. And to the very people whose blog he claims to support.

  253. Gavin, thanks for the explanation earlier. That is the most direct you have been on this blog. I do think you have been vague and provacative on purpose. Then when someone responds to it you have a comeback like this:

    “Oh and Yes it was Durham- another Scotsman talking sense instead of the lynch mob. You don’t live in the wild west – supposedly you live in a civilised country. Put your guns down and try, as much as you possibly can, to live peaceably with all men (and women).”

    And this insulting one:

    “And in between posts- while you’ve all been spitting fire and venom – like the good complementarian that I am, I’ve done the housework and am now off to do some shopping.”

    I think you have an agenda and like to stir things up. And that could be fun on another issue….. but not this one. I have read too many REformed/YRR blogs for several years not to recognize it.

    “I’ve been astonished at what I’ve learned here at TWW about American evangelicalism. But I’ve also been appalled at your own lack of tolerance, balance and fair play. And when I say so, all hell breaks loose.”

    You did not make your case about “tolerance,balance and fair play” for alleged perverts and those who protect them. Make your case, friend. You simply declared it and rebuked. That seems to be the NC way. You know if you try to make your case it won’t work because there is no case for “silence” about it which seems to be your idea of balance from what I have read in your comments in several threads.

    You are too thin skinned to not expect strong responses to such declarations. That is why I think you have an agenda. Your behavior is very passive agressive when it comes to words in comments.

    “I’m not interested in a person’s background and I’m not trying to bring anyone down. I don’t play games. I do try to be funny now and then but it invariably backfires.”

    Insulting humor often backfires. And I do think you have been playing games. Clean it up. Tell us exactly how we have been intolerant, unbalanced and not playing fair on the issue of abuse and it being covered up by church leadership in SGM and it being covered up. With your Reformed bent you might think of pastors or church leadership of being sort of specially anointed and that might color your views. It also might color your view because of the NC view that all sin is equal, etc. I will take that into consideration because it might have to do with why you think we are unfair and intolerant. I realize our definitions might be different.

  254. I do remember a time when Gavin deliberately chose to say something in a way that would incite passions, and then later labeled it as a tool to help people see things in themselves. But what is a tool to Gavin is largely “playing games” to others. I prefer people to be direct, present their views, and grow through the exchange of ideas, not tactics. I’ve seen this time and time again from Gavin, and it really frustrates me because it detracts from anything positive he’s saying.

    For what it’s worth, I am an INTJ, which is a very small part of the population and makes me a good abstract thinker. It’s only one letter difference than Gavin, but it makes a huge difference.

    Anyway, I’m not trying to defend him- I don’t think he has a nefarious agenda, but I do think his desire to push buttons and teach people about what he sees in them (this is the “F” part of him) gets in the way of beneficial discussion.

    I really wish he would turn his “intuitive feeling” radar on the victims of abuse rather than the commenters here.

  255. Ok, Gavin,
    I’ll play.

    Let’s start with my single question that i can’t get an answer to: why do you criticize people posting on this blog much more than you criticize child abusers and the “leaders” who enabled the continued devastation of multiple little lives over decades? In other words, why are you seemingly so pro-SGM abuser?

    You clearly cast your hat in the abuser/enabler corner by your consistent criticism of the comments but not leveling equal criticism (any?) at the abusers. We’ve established it wasn’t financially or sgm/relationship based. You just wandered in to the site accidentally and said, “hey, these abuser blokes are not getting a fair shake- i’ll be their champion!”

    If not for money or relationships, why do you seem more upset at the reaction and not the abusers and accomplices themselves?

    At best, very odd behavior.

  256. @ Jeff, anon 1, & Dee:

    “But what is a tool to Gavin is largely ‘playing games’ to others. I prefer people to be direct, present their views, and grow through the exchange of ideas, not tactics. I’ve seen this time and time again from Gavin, and it really frustrates me because it detracts from anything positive he’s saying.”

    “Insulting humor often backfires.”

    As a counterbalance to my previous comment – I do agree with the above as well. I have found several of Gavin’s comments to be much closer to backhanded insults than productive discussion, whether he intended them to read that way or not. In other words, I can see some fault on both sides of this issue.

    “I am happy to compare this blog’s acceptance of difficult comments and commenters with other blogs. We are far more accepting of differing points of views, even when it makes us cringe.”

    This is true, hands down. If it were not, we would not be having this discussion as Gavin would have been banned immediately merely for disagreeing (forget snark).

    Jeff, I thought your comments were even-handed and a pretty good reflection of my views also. I’m glad we’re getting this all out in the open and I hope it will be productive in the long run, for both “sides.”

  257. @ Jeff:

    “There is no doubt in my mind at all if these same SGM allegations were made about any secular institution, or even a non-evangelical Christian one, evangelicals would spill loads of digital ink explaining exactly why their godlessness or lack of reverence for the inspired word of God caused these problems.”

    Oh my goodness yes. Could you imagine if a similar sex scandal had occurred at Planned Parenthood? The evangelical blogosphere would be exultant. There IS a double standard.

  258. @ Jeff:

    I am also an INTJ according to the online Meyers-Briggs test. Are INTJs really that small a percentage of the population?

  259. This book has been around a long time (1988) and, as far as I know, hasn’t been updated or duplicated:

    *Personality Type and Religious Leadership* by Roy Oswald and Otto Kroeger.

    http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Type-Religious-Leadership-Oswald/dp/1566990254/

    MBTI can be a helpful tool in understanding some kinds of conflicts that are based in modes of perception and how urgently we want closure on processing information and in what ways. When I worked as an administrative assistant in the Doctor of Ministry department at Golden Gate Seminary, I did the MBTI scoring and learned a lot about it …

    Hope this reference is of help.

  260. I/ENTP here. I am on the cusp of I/E. But believe the E is more nurture than nature as I get my energy from being alone.

    Thanks for the link Brad. Note how many more F’s there are. That is significant. I think the political campaign strategists know this! (wink)

    I am a former MBTI facilitator. Have not done it in years but facilitated it with groups for 15 yrs.

    There is no date on the chart. It would be interesting to see if the stats changed from say the early 90’s to more recent.

  261. I have to say that I become a bit concerned when one of the readers becomes the focus of the blog as opposed to the point of the blog post. Then, the person has disrupted the intent of this blog.  This happened once before, about 2 years ago and it shut down discussion from others. I would like to avoid that if at all possible. 

  262. Dear All
    I am still surprised at the depth of feeling some of my comments have aroused and disappointed to still be on the receiving end of unfounded and derogatory character assassination And I’m not thin skinned. So this will be my last post. I wish you well

  263. To get back to the topic at hand, the CLC pastors responded with a written blog statement. I was disappointed to see the feigned surprise and the comments around “if” this is true, we’re trying to understand these new allegations, etc. This has been going on for decades, including pastoral coverup, but the statement reads as if this is the first they’ve ever heard of it and they’ve been blindsided by false allegations.

    I found the continued deception very revealing regarding how much change is actually occurring at CLC versus how much is just the same old SGM spin mode.

    Other thoughts?

  264. @ Concerned for the kids:

    Concerned, I wrote this on the "Joe Paterno" thread, and I am NOT excusing the milquetoast statements in response to the lawsuit coming from SGM/CLC, but this is about lawyers, lawyers, lawyers.

    The organization's every public utterance is being scrubbed and re-scrubbed by their legal team, period. These words are crafted to best position the organization vis-a-vis its legal strategy, and for no other reason.

    You'll see no truth, contrition, or admission to even an iota of responsibility in their public statements now that the suit has been filed.

  265. I think you’re right, Rafiki. And that is very sad. Just goes to show you what their priorities are.

  266. @ Moniker:

    Yep, it’s a pathetic bunch of priorities.

    I had to “lawyer up” myself several years ago, due to an abusive workplace environment. In the face of overwhelming and very public evidence, the abuser (who was my supervisor) was finally held accountable and an internal investigation commenced.

    It was then that I learned that my organization’s highest priority and concern was NOT for me or other employees. The priority was to further shield and salvage their reputation and protect themselves at all costs from any legal action that could arise based on their sheltering of the abusive supervisor (for YEARS).

    None of you know me, but believe me when I say that I never, ever, EVER thought I’d be in such a situation – EVER. And it was a real shocker when I had to hire legal counsel to protect myself, as I thought that would be my organization’s top priority. Boy, was I naive.

  267. @ Jeff:

    I came out really strong (70-some percent) on I, N and J. I had a 12% preference (“slight”) for T. It wasn’t the official test, only a short online version, but I remember the last time I took it it came out similar.

  268. Hester wrote:

    @ Jeff:
    I came out really strong (70-some percent) on I, N and J. I had a 12% preference (“slight”) for T. It wasn’t the official test, only a short online version, but I remember the last time I took it it came out similar.

    So basically, you are awesome! We “masterminds” have to stick together you know :)

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