Hey Dee,
No matter how bad it is SGM will just write out a bigger check to the girls. My guess is the young women will get free college, Brand new 2013 corvette, new homes costing over $800,000, and a yearly payment of $50,000 for 20 years. This is lunch money to CJ and SGM .

We will give new meaning to “coast to coast” and this time, the “aliens” will be required to make an appearance.

Okay, so if I’m an Immortal, and I’m calling from east of the Rockies, should I just use the Wild Card Line?

Not sure. But Major Ed Dames is on the scene, so you can bet there will be some remote viewing and we will find out!

@ dee:

LOL Dee – – maybe doghouse size.

@ dee: But not a tinfoil hat?!

Hey Dee,
How can CJ lose his job he owns SGM 100%?

Delta dagger, the answer to your question is: money.

No money equals no SGM. That won’t happen overnight…. but it is already starting to dry up.

@Dee & Eagle

I am standing by with my Sangean 818-CS short wave radio, operated by crank power. I await further instructions.

SMG

I noticed the spacing on the first schedule I posted was messed up. My apologies.

For you fellow coffee drinkers, please understand I haven’t had my two cups which, as you know, amounts to being brain dead. Don’t argue with me. Must make coffee….

Court Scheduling Information
(Schedule is subject to change)

Event Date: 01/18/2013 Event Time: 09:00 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
Description: SCHEDULING HEARING

Event Date: 01/18/2013
Description: PLT EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY

Event Date: 02/12/2013
Description: MOTION FOR ALT SVC DEADLINE

Event Date: 03/14/2013
Description: DEF EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY

Event Date: 05/28/2013
Description: ALL WRITTEN DISCOVERY SERVED BY

Event Date: 07/12/2013
Description: DISCOVERY COMPLETED

Event Date: 07/23/2013
Description: ADD’L PARTIES JOINDER DEADLINE

Event Date: 08/09/2013 Event Time: 08:30 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
Description: STATUS HEARING

Event Date: 08/09/2013
Description: MOTIONS/INC DISPOSITIVE FILED BY

Event Date: 08/09/2013
Description: MEETING OF ALL COUNSEL

Event Date: 08/09/2013
Description: RULE 2-504.3(B) NOTICE DEADLINE

Event Date: 08/19/2013
Description: JOINT PRETRIAL STMT FILED BY

Event Date: 09/06/2013 Event Time: 01:30 PM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
Description: SETTLEMENT/PRETRIAL HRG.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.

That’s the way to do it

Gavin, I don’t think that Ephesians 5:12 is saying that we should be ashamed to talk about others’ misdeeds. After all, this whole section is talking about the children of the light living in a way that exposes the darkness. It wouldn’t make sense for Paul to exhort us to expose the deeds of darkness and then in the next breath say that we should be ashamed of ourselves for talking about them. What is shameful is the sin and darkness, not our talking about it. What is shameful is when Christians try to cover it up instead of exposing it.

Moniker wrote:

Gavin, I don’t think that Ephesians 5:12 is saying that we should be ashamed to talk about others’ misdeeds. After all, this whole section is talking about the children of the light living in a way that exposes the darkness. It wouldn’t make sense for Paul to exhort us to expose the deeds of darkness and then in the next breath say that we should be ashamed of ourselves for talking about them. What is shameful is the sin and darkness, not our talking about it. What is shameful is when Christians try to cover it up instead of exposing it.

Well said!!

Total Woman defined: WIN some MAN ipulation 🙂

There is to course a place for public censure but that too has to be done for the right reasons and in the right spirit.

The rights reasons are
– Vindicating the honour of Jesus Christ that suffers I’m the miscarriage of a member
– Preserving the authority of His ordinances and the chastening of disobedience thereunto
– For the person’s good in the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved
– For the good of the church that the leaven of profanity spread not and that others may thereby learn to fear.

The right spirit and purpose of such censure is that the person’s particular edification be not neglected, and therefore in procedure, particular and special respect would be had to the manner – whether by meekness or rigidity, by forebearing or proceeding – which may most attain these ends.

Dear Gavin, I suspect that your comment was lifted directly from some old dead guy’s commentary. If so, you ought to give credit to your source. If not, I think suggest you try to speak In plain 21st Century English.

Dee, that sounds like Piper’s enduring abuse for a season or a smacking for a night. It also sounds like Nancy Leigh DeMoss:

“There are extreme situations where an obedient wife may need to remove herself and/or her children from proximity to her husband, if to remain in that setting would be to place themselves in physical danger. However, even in such a case, a woman can — and must — maintain an attitude of reverence for her husband’s position; her goal is not to belittle or resist him as her husband but, ultimately, to see God restore him to obedience. If she provokes or worsens the situation through her attitudes, words, or behavior, she will interfere with what God wants to do in her husband’s life and will not be free to claim God’s protection and intervention on her behalf.”

Dee, Let's just say if CJ and SGM lose the case and more churches leave SGM no big deal because SGM will replace all the old churches with new ones. I think that CJ will send PC colleges grads to start new churches.

@ dee:
Gavin: forsooth, dear Man, I say unto thee…chastisest thou us in words familiar to feminine ears of recent days…verily, the sense whereof mayhaps enter into the feminine heart & become unto us erudition & education. Wasteth not thy fine words in unsteady discourse…

Alternatively: speak english…this Queen Elizabeth’s, not the last.

Dee: were you moved to smite Tulip upon her transgression, or were thy utterances sufficient unto the occasion?

Deb
And your point is?

In the United States legal system, a plaintiff formally begins a civil action when he files a complaint, which names a defendant, in court. A complaint is a short and plain statement of the facts surrounding the controversy. An amended complaint is a revision of the original complaint, previously filed by the plaintiff. A defendant usually has 21 days, from the date on which he is served with the summons and complaint, to officially file his response or answer in court.

There are many reasons why a plaintiff may want to file an amended complaint. A plaintiff may have subsequently discovered additional facts about the lawsuit, since the time he filed the original complaint. In addition, a plaintiff may wish to amend his complaint to include additional causes of action, or requests for relief, or to name additional parties as defendants to the action.

In some cases, a plaintiff will need to file an amended complaint because a court may have granted a defendant’s motion to dismiss the plaintiff’s complaint. This may happen if it failed to state a legal claim upon which relief can be granted, or if the allegations made were too vague. In situations where a plaintiff’s original complaint was legally defective, rather than dismissing the plaintiff’s case entirely with no further recourse, many courts will allow the plaintiff to file an amended complaint in order to correct the inadequacies. Most jurisdictions in the United States follow the federal rules of civil procedure, which govern the manner in which a complaint may be amended.

Rule 15 of the federal rules of civil procedure provides that a plaintiff may amend his complaint as a matter of course, if the defendant has not filed an answer to the original complaint. If the defendant has filed his answer to the original complaint, the plaintiff may amend his complaint only by consent of the defendant, or with the court’s permission. Most courts freely allow a plaintiff to amend his complaint unless the amendment would substantially prejudice the defendant.

An amended complaint must be also be served upon the defendant. The defendant is then allowed to respond to it within the response time remaining on the original complaint. This is usually 21 days from the date on which it was served, or 10 days from the date of service of the amended complaint, whichever time period is longer.

http://wisegeek.com/what-is-an-amended-complaint.htm

And here is your web profile. Don’t get puffed up.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/thewartburgwatch.com#

Goodbye

Gavin (assuming you’re still reading),

There’s no lynch mob here. Just people wanting justice.

You keep speaking of “restoration” of the offending party. I’d like to see that; I’m sure that others here would like to see it, too. But repentance must come first. That means the offender must come clean, and make amends to all concerned. In the case of criminal offenses, that includes paying some kind of debt to society. An offender who comes forward on his own to do so has a better chance of expecting restoration to the community.

So far, though, leaders in SGM have shown little or no willingness to do that. None of them can demand to be acceptance among Christians until they admit their guilt, and make all their amends. And they just keep hiding. So yes, we “name and shame” them. What else can we do in their interests, and in that of their congregants, and society at large?

BTW, what was the point of the Alexa rankings on this site? And who was getting “puffed up”?

Gavin is obviously taking sides with those who condone covering up the sexual abuse of minors. He seems little concerned for the real victims in this case. And the Alexa link? What was that relevant to? When a sexual crime has been committed, it no longer falls under the jurisdiction of church discipline protocol. It should have been handled by the authorities years ago. These legal proceedings are long overdue!

Nope, this isn’t the Wild West, which means that Gavin’s not the sherriff.

Sorry, I am easily amused at statistics. Check out my old blog site’s info:

bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com is visited more frequently by females who have no children, received some college education and browse this site from work.

This is a crackup!

Gavin-

Every time you post I smile at the Calvinistic pride you display ever so humbly.

Your grateful servant-
Doubtful

“You keep speaking of “restoration” of the offending party”

I think perhaps Gavin is saying the SGM pastors need to get saved? How would one restore a “pastor” who never stepped down?

Anon 1 wrote:

More like the “Reformed” brand.

Good point. Might not be sgm-specific, but reformed protectionism. That’s what keeps piper and MacArthur quietly supportive of mahaney, isn’t it? They are kinda all “all in” financially at this point.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

“When a sexual crime has been committed, it no longer falls under the jurisdiction of church discipline protocol.”

Acutally, it still would. There would now be two jurisdictions simultaneously. You could still bring 2 or 3 witnesses to an individual in jail, you could still tell the church and if the sinner truly repents but is sill serving time, you could welcome him back into the church. He may be in jail, but still a member. He could be visited by pastors, etc. The church discipline should be unaffected by criminal prosecution, since its ultimate goal is to restore a sinner to Christ.

Steve Scott wrote:

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
“When a sexual crime has been committed, it no longer falls under the jurisdiction of church discipline protocol.”
Acutally, it still would. There would now be two jurisdictions simultaneously. You could still bring 2 or 3 witnesses to an individual in jail, you could still tell the church and if the sinner truly repents but is sill serving time, you could welcome him back into the church. He may be in jail, but still a member. He could be visited by pastors, etc. The church discipline should be unaffected by criminal prosecution, since its ultimate goal is to restore a sinner to Christ.

I can respect your position on that. But, this is still not the course of action that SGM took. In many states, including the one in which I reside, a minister is required by law to report sexual crimes which they become aware of to the local authorities. They violate the law by not doing so. However the local church decides to continue handling the offender is up to their own convictions. But they may not bypass the local authorities to do so.

Thanks, concerned. It is so nice to have smart people on this blog!

dee wrote:

we are stubborn women

In my experience, is there any other kind? 🙂

(if not for stubborn women us men would never leave the couch, and our clothes never leave the floor)

Anon 1 wrote:

How does Alexa gather stats of visitors unless they have profiles with that info on them such as age, education, etc? Anyone know?

A lot of reasonable people feel their rankings are reasonable. But as to visitor details, well there’s a lot of inference there based on other sites visited by the same people there IS a lot that can be inferred IN GENERAL about a sites visitors. But once you get below the top 100,000 or 200,000 sites there’s really not enough data to make good inferences.

As to tracking things they plant cookies via ads and such which allow them to see other sites you visit.

I also did not see the relevance of the Alexa link, given that no one had claimed TWW was the/one of the most popular site on the internet.

Dee,

I don’t have any experience with child rapists in churches, or things that are crimes and don’t go reported (that I know about). I know of a few instances where people were prosecuted for things outside of church that didn’t include a church not reporting them, etc. I’d guess stuff has happened like we’re discussing here, but without my knowledge. I’ve read numerous stories from people who used to be in cults and fundamentalist and legalistic environments.

My point was that when a crime is committed, it should (according both to the bible and what I’ve been taught in neo-cal circles that the bible says)… and the key word here is “should”… be prosecuted *and* be an issue of church discipline.

delta dagger wrote:

No matter how bad it is SGM will just write out a bigger check to the girls. My guess is the young women will get free college, Brand new 2013 corvette, new homes costing over $800,000, and a yearly payment of $50,000 for 20 years.

All they have to do is keep silent for life.

dee wrote:

What a hoot “somehow I read that as Saran Wrap, not Reynolds Wrap!”
Do you remember that crazy lady, Total Woman, who told Christian women to greet their husbands at the door wrapped in Saran Wrap?

Well, if hubby has a Baked Potato Fetish/Paraphilia, maybe wifey SHOULD use Reynolds Wrap instead…

Hester wrote:

We don’t have any evidence (at least I don’t) that Gavin is in the employ of SGM.

Though it wouldn’t surprise me if that were the case. Either that or he’s an SGM fanboy.

Steve,

Thank you for clarifying your position. I imagine if you’ve never experienced pedophilia or sexual assault issues in your church, those of us who have may come across as very opinionated. Many of these issues have been extensively covered on this blog. Unfortunately, the environments and thinking in some churches creates a haven for this deviant behavior to flourish. Often, church leadership will place their reputation, income, and image before the damage done to a violated child. Some act as if their little fiefdoms are too sancrosanct for law enforcement to be involved. I may be a little jaded, because this happened in my church. I sincerely hope that there are churches out there that will love others as much as they love themselves. And that molested children will not be swept under the carpet like some dirty little secret.

Eagle, my head is spinning. A WOMAN pastor is promoting CJ Mahaney books/teaching?

BTW, Mahaney IS an expert on pride. (wink)

And I’m equally unsurprised [sp?] that the accolades are coming from someone at NCC.

I had not heard of NCC. Guess I am out of the loop. Went to the site and looked at “leadership team”. They have a “roving discipler”. I wonder how that works?

Steve,
How would you go about determining if a sexual abuser is truly repentant? Also, how would you deal with a situation where a victim is in the same congregation and still active where the repentent (and in this case, I do mean truly repentent, not just a guy demanding forgiveness) abuser wishes to come back. What if the victim cannot stand to be around the abuser?

I’m not asking these questions to interrogate you, but listening to tales of abuse victims, it is quite common for churches to quickly forgive abusers and oppress the victims who they see as unwilling to “forgive”. Abusers are excellent at false repentance and very few abusers change (but it does happen).

I would contend that a truly repentant abuser who understand the need of a victim to be left alone and seek a place to worship where he will not cause pain with his presence.

JEffS, I had some of the same questions concerning the idea of “discipline” with such heinous crimes as child molestation, etc. Why do we assume that a professing believer who we find out was raping his daughter was ever saved?

In 1 Corin 5 we see Paul advising them to turn the guy who was sleeping with his step mom over to Satan. It seems to have worked as we read in 2 Corin. (if that is about him)

Paul then goes on to give counsel that is totally ignored today in most churches and the opposite of what we see played out. Most churches focus on the horrors in culture/world and ignore the abuses in their midst. Paul counsels the opposite:

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]

Does this mean they can never be restored? I don’t think so but like you, I have to ask what is genuine repentence? Most molesters of this type are not caught unless the victim talks because they know how to “act” like a believer. It actually gives them cover for their heinous crimes.

Hey Headless Guy,
For the money that SGM and CJ are going to pay to the young women I hope there is a gag order— because the money they are getting should shut the case down.

My $.02 – A truly repentant person puts the needs/desires of the victim ahead of their own ALWAYS, no exceptions. They do that because they realize the gravity of their sin and the long-lasting effects on the victim. When an abuser focuses on themselves first, that is the first clue of unrepentance.

@ Eagle:
Why Small Groups?

To facilitate control of the people.

@ Jeff S:
I would contend that a truly repentant abuser who understand the need of a victim to be left alone and seek a place to worship where he will not cause pain with his presence.

I might go so far as to add that he will consider the effects he’s had on friends and family of the victim as well, and not seek to disturb their peace either.

Let this repentant one start new someplace else.

anonymous wrote:

@ Eagle:
Why Small Groups?
To facilitate control of the people.

Bingo!

Jeff S wrote:

I would contend that a truly repentant abuser who understand the need of a victim to be left alone and seek a place to worship where he will not cause pain with his presence.

Agreed, 1000%.

It seems that in the case of SGM, it seems that the common sense indication of “true repentence” as defined by JeffS was utterly and completely ignored in favor of “sin sniffing,” “biblical reconciliation,” and “biblical peacemaking.” All to maintain the idol of almighty CONTROL.

How.
On.
Earth.
Do these SGM leaders sleep at night? How????

I am looking forward to reading the amended documents for sure. Not in a spirit of “gossip and slander” but in a spirit of grief and GRATITUDE FOR DAYLIGHT AND TRANSPARENCY. 🙁

@ Anon 1:
I looked through that site and found an account on the Tell Your Story page that is highly disturbing. Apparently there is a chapter in this Circle book called “Cloudy with a Chance of Quail.” The tone of the account that references this chapter is that this guy who wrote the book taught that this quail business was a “miracle from God that Moses didn’t think God could do.” He completely ignores that it was a judgment. I can’t begin to imagine how you get a miracle that implies blessing out of

“And the anger of the Lord was greatly aroused; Moses also was displeased…The Lord shall give you meat and you shall eat…for a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you, because you have despised the Lord who is among you….But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was aroused against the people…”

I am utterly at a loss on that one.

Rafiki wrote:

Jeff S wrote:
I would realize that without an extraordinary work of grace, the relationship would not be restored
It cannot be overemphasized that the work of grace in restoration IS extraordinary. It may (or may not) occur after the long difficult work of healing by the victim.
That extraordinary work of grace can’t be demanded instantaneously by selfish church leaders with their own power interests, or misguided American evangelical impulses to skip over people’s suffering because “good” Christians must have joy joy joy in their hearts hearts hearts need to simply “get over it and get more bible.”

Word.

Anon 1 wrote:

This sort of thinking is all over our society. It is the entitlement mentality. People want both the government and the church to take care of them and do their thinking for them. It scares me for the future.

This kind of thing scares me the most! There is no one to listen to, no one to imitate, except Christ. Math and computers, the only earthly things I can believe in. Can we discuss spiritual authority? What is it, who has it, and why we need it?

OK-OK-OK,
This court case is a civil case. Of course the women are seeking a huge payday. I would bet my first born son that CJ and SGM will not say a word to the women. I think that SGM should have nip this in the bud years ago. I guess that CJ and SGM could have payed off the women years ago. Well SGM has learned something from this mess have a legal staff on duty 24/7/365

Delta Dagger, you know nothing, let me repeat, nothing about it and you are egregiously insulting the plaintiffs, their families, other victims, and many other people. The lawsuit is NOT about money and the plaintiffs will NEVER, read NEVER accept any resolution that leaves the truth hidden. I think you are the one to whom things are always and entirely about money.

The congregation of Fairfax Covenant Church, the second of the two large, influential mothership churches of SGM, voted this afternoon to leave SGM.

@ Jeff S:
Exactly. If I put myself in the shoes of an abuser and consider the effects my abuse, my #1 priority would be doing whatever it took to help my victim heal from what I did. This is different from “restoring the relationship”: I would realize that without an extraordinary work of grace, the relationship would not be restored and I would have had no expectation of it. Most likely the best thing I could do is to walk away permanently.

This is where SGM has failed. Look how they treated the sex abuse situation where the toddler was forced to meet with the sex offender for reconciliation. That is absurd. The truly repentant person says, “I do not deserve to have a relationship with with my victim.”

This is contrary to what so many churches teach that you have to be completely reconciled. To some that looks like perpetrator/victim can be fellowshipping in church together, eat together, etc, and if a victim says “no”, the victim is faulted for being in sin with an unforgiving heart. That is not right.

Delta Dagger,

I completely back up Phoenix’s statement. Perhaps you should read the abuse stories before you comment further.

@Phoenix, just saw your comment @5.43 – please don’t think that I was stating that those who have suffered are out for monetary gain or revenge principles, etc.

” am suspicious of this commenter and would like to forward these comments to the attorney for the victims. This may be the beginning of a campaign of harrassment. As you will see from my comment to delta -this stops now. ”

In this particular situation with abuse and rape, I totally agree. Get the IP address, too.

There is no amount of money in the world to make up for their initial abuse and second abuse by “Christian” leaders they have had to live with.

Delta Dagger needs to know there are believers out there that will NOT put up with this sort of treatment of victims.

Eagle, I understand how much you want them to repent for the way they hurt you. I’ve been there, both with my ex wife and my old church. I just wanted them to admit how wrong they were and how they hurt me (this includes a confession of mine in the name of accountability that was then revealed to others- something that wasn’t really that bad, but the breach of trust was painful). I almost walked away from faith entirely.

But I once sat in a session with a therapist speaking to a lot of emotionally hurting people and he offered some great wisdom (this was a secular therapist): do not wait for those who hurt you to make it better. It isn’t fair, but you have to heal without them. If your father sexually abused you as a little girl, he is likely never going to work to make it right. He should, and it should fall to him, but as unjust as it is, that just isn’t the way the world works.

I realized through my own recovery how much I was waiting on my ex and my church to “make it right”- but I finally figured out they wouldn’t ever do it. Every time I tried to broach the subject with my ex or tried to send an email to my old church, I was merely keeping the wounds open, making my recovery dependent on them. And I was letting them define what my faith had to mean, but I decided that they were not the gatekeepers of who Jesus loves. I could walk away from them without walking away from Jesus.

It was actually the day my divorce was finalized that the latest Rush CD came out, and it had this song on it. I highly recommend reading the words, it got me through a LOT:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/wishthemwell.html

But beyond all of that, I want to say that these people do not represent Christ to you as they claimed to. Rejecting their teaching does not mean rejecting Jesus. I know it can feel that way, but there were Christians long before those who injured you were around, or even Calvin and others whose theology they used to injure you. You know that I still hold to that theology, but I don’t always agree it means what they say it does (and I certainly don’t think that accepting my brand of soteriology is required for someone to be a Christian).

Remember that both Paul and Jesus affirmed that the highest calling is love- if anyone violates the call to love, they are not representing Jesus or the Christian faith. We don’t even know that those who betrayed you are believers- scripture warns of false teachers and false believers.

I know you have a lot of questions and a lot of Christians fire back at you for even asking, but I know you’ve also seen believers who don’t. If you were in my town I’d gladly meet you for coffee as much as you liked to talk about the tough questions. Of course, I don’t have it all figured out: my faith doesn’t require me to know everything, only that the thing that makes more sense than anything else is that I need a Savior and Jesus is him.

So I guess if you’re ever in Atlanta, let me know and I’ll buy you a cup of coffee. And if you’re really feeling trusting, you can visit my church. I’d hope you’d see a different brand of evangelical Christianity than you’ve experienced elsewhere.

But above all, I’d encourage you to do what those who hurt you did not. Make your faith journey about Jesus, not the extra stuff that’s been piled on. There are a lot of wolves in Christian churches (and entire churches full of wolves) that seek to devour the weak and pull people away from the love and mercy of Christ. But there are real Christians out there too, and you will know them by how they love, not how they devour.

“But I once sat in a session with a therapist speaking to a lot of emotionally hurting people and he offered some great wisdom (this was a secular therapist): do not wait for those who hurt you to make it better. It isn’t fair, but you have to heal without them. If your father sexually abused you as a little girl, he is likely never going to work to make it right. He should, and it should fall to him, but as unjust as it is, that just isn’t the way the world works.

I realized through my own recovery how much I was waiting on my ex and my church to “make it right”- but I finally figured out they wouldn’t ever do it. Every time I tried to broach the subject with my ex or tried to send an email to my old church, I was merely keeping the wounds open, making my recovery dependent on them.
”

Every victim needs to read this 100x. If a crime was committed or obstruction of justice, then go to authorities which is not only about justice but about protecting future victims. But if any victim is hoping or waiting around for these folks involved to admit their wrong doing….you are only rehurting yourself over and over. One of the best ways to deal with it is to not see them at all. Only time will lessen their past influence over you. Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation with those who are not genuinely repentent. It does not mean fellowship either. Do not let people guilt you over that. Your forgiveness will not lessen their culpability. It will release you. Not them.

Jeff, good words! So glad you had a good secular therapist

“Inconceivable!”

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

@ dee:

OMG! I laughed so hard and peed a little. Goodness! I love you, Dee!

Dee –

Delta Dagger has been an enigma to me. Most of his/her comments have been odd. Sometimes his comments seem pro SGM, sometimes anti SGM. I have ignored most of them, until the one above. It clearly seemed a dig at victims.

@ Jeanette:

“Just an update Minnesota and Colorado are solid SGM.”

The home ranges of John Piper and Kevin Swanson? Of course they are.

@ Dee:

“That totals 12 who have left. As far as we know there is still 1 pending: Virginia Beach.”

I believe the phrase you are searching for is “like rats from a sinking ship”?

” Why do people believe that the churches that are leaving are healthier than those in the SGM network? ”

Thank YOU!!!

Anon 1 wrote:

” Why do people believe that the churches that are leaving are healthier than those in the SGM network? ”
Thank YOU!!!

I keep asking the same thing about all the CLC praise. I’m betting the same power structure, care group reporting ( and record keeping) etc continues.

If CLC starts talking about a new network of churches, RUN. Just trading pope mahaney for pope harris at that point. A healthy church doesn’t need a network. A product (book, conference, “worship” music, etc) in search of a captive purchasing market does, though.

(wonder what David charged everyone to sing his songs? What’s with these dudes?)

Ok, Jenn Grover has confirmed at SGMSurvivors that Chesapeake SGM also voted today and is cutting ties with SGM. That makes TWO prominent SGM churches in one day: Chesapeake AND Fairfax.

Please keep in mind that there are so many abuse stories from these churches. The corruption started from the top and has been trickling on down the hierarchy for years. Leaving SGM does not change the learned patterns of behavior.

@ Eagle:

You are very courageous (not sure if that’s the right word, but a better one escapes me right now) to keep searching and asking questions. I still can’t bring myself to visit a church right now, though we’ve been invited several times. I’m still trying to come to grips with the last one I experienced. This blog is helping with that. Kudos to you for sorting through it all.

dee wrote:

Jeff S

A great quote from one of my favorite movies. My favorite is the half dead as opposed to fully dead scenes.

“Depends. If he’s fully dead, about all you can do is go through his pockets for spare change.”

Rafiki wrote:

That extraordinary work of grace can’t be demanded instantaneously by selfish church leaders with their own power interests, or misguided American evangelical impulses to skip over people’s suffering because “good” Christians must have joy joy joy in their hearts hearts hearts need to simply “get over it and get more bible.”

As Internet Monk has pointed out several times, American Evangelicals have forgotten how to Lament. Despite the fact that Lamentation has a long historical trace in the Bible — many of the Psalms, many of the Prophets, there’s even one whole book titled Lamentations.

In personal experience, when I have had stories burst into my mind fully formed, demanding to be written, they are usually Dark. Half the time they are Lamentations.

@ Jeff S: exactly. Piper speaks for himself and should be perceived as such.

re. churches leaving SGM, i don’t have any real hope that they’ll change.

Julie Anne wrote:

Dee – I will ask around. That was certainly creepy behavior. I highly suspect it was because he used copyrighted photos from professional photographers. (TWW readers, this is what Dee and I are talking about: http://goo.gl/CJNQt)

Christian authors Christine A. Colon and Bonnie Field discuss this topic on pages 102 – 103 of their book “Singled Out.”

They not only mention that women can be “visually oriented” too (which is true), but that it’s legalistic, and it’s shifting responsibility where it belongs, to come up with long dress codes of what women should and should not wear, and then tell the women, “here, dress like this list says to so that men won’t lust.”

On page 103, the authors mention they know unmarried women who are turned on by males with ‘Roman noses, strong yet graceful hands, wire-rimmed glasses, [etc]’ and they write,

But you don’t see any dating guides telling men to cover up their noses or not wear glasses because they might cause a woman to lust.

Jeff S wrote:

I’m not asking these questions to interrogate you, but listening to tales of abuse victims, it is quite common for churches to quickly forgive abusers and oppress the victims who they see as unwilling to “forgive”. Abusers are excellent at false repentance and very few abusers change (but it does happen).

I’ve seen the same thing when it comes to bullying – I was harassed by one boss at a job I had.

I began reading books about bullying in the workplace, and other books by other people who were experts.

I noticed that nobody at my job (and they could see this boss abusing me) did nothing to help me, and I was taught by my mother to never fight back (good Christians are doormats).

I wanted to study this issue to figure out why it happens, if and how I could protect myself in the future, etc., and I learned an awful lot in the process.

When it comes to bullying (whether children bullying each other in school -which I also experienced- or adult-on-adult bullying in workplaces), the victim is not only not protected by the organization (or school), but he or she (the target) will be blamed or forced out.

In a lot of schools, kids who are targets are forbidden from standing up to the bully.

If both kids (bully and target) are brought in over their issues, even if the bullying is one-way and one-sided (i.e., the target did nothing to deserve the abuse, did nothing to initiate it), some schools will force both kids to shake hands, apologize to one another, and make up.

As one author wrote (whose an expert – he’s been studying abuse/ bullying for many years), this approach does not work, and it is a form of injustice.

You simply cannot parcel out blame in bullying cases as though it’s “50 – 50” (equal), when you have one party (the bully) who is physically and/or emotionally stronger than the target.

But anyway, a lot books about childhood bullying / workplace-bullying-among-adults paint the same situation, and it’s so backwards and infuriating: the bully gets protected by the system, while the victim gets no justice, gets run out of a job, etc.

Rafiki wrote:

That extraordinary work of grace can’t be demanded instantaneously by selfish church leaders with their own power interests, or misguided American evangelical impulses to skip over people’s suffering because “good” Christians must have joy joy joy in their hearts hearts hearts need to simply “get over it and get more bible.”

I had major depression since I was a kid and wasn’t healed of it until recently, and that is so apt a description of how most American Christians behave towards mental health problems (or any other kind of suffering).

Where the Bible says to “rejoice with those who are rejoicing and weep with those who are weeping,” most Christians are great about the rejoice part, but unwilling to do the weeping.

Their version of the Bible seems to read at that verse, “lecture, scold, and give platitudes to those who weep. Or just ignore them.”

“You might be surprised about what is being said out there in the wide world. Piper worship is everywhere. I talk to people who would have a real problem if I said that I disagreed with something Piper said or wrote.”

No, no surprise here. I have a Facebook status update I’ve written but not posted expressing my dislike for Piper and why I’m tired of seeing my friends quote him on FB. I haven’t posted it because I’m not sure it would do any good at all except to create a bunch of arguments.

But not everyone who loves Piper understands all of what he teaches. When I first came to my new church, my pastor held up Piper as someone he respected for his compassionate way of dealing with people. When I brought up Piper’s views on divorce and domestic violence, he said, “I didn’t know that Piper believed that, and believe me neither the church nor I agree with him.” Then later I had a similar conversation with an elder who also likes Piper, and once again I brought up specific teaching the elder didn’t know about, and he did not rebuke me, but rather listened and agreed in the end that we should be careful with celebrity pastors and not hang on their every word.

Many times people just don’t know what Piper teaches on certain topics. I will bet if you asked the majority of evangelical Christians “Does God orchestrate evil?” they would not agree with him- though you would certainly find more among the reformed folk, especially those who are really into Piper.

I understand what you are talking, about though. Piper love is a real problem, and not all people are mature enough to handle it when you criticize such a big name. This is why I haven’t yet posted that FB status update- I’m just not sure I want to generate the heat. But too many more quotes from Piper and I might not care about the heat any more.

But my point to Eagle is, don’t let Piper define what you have to believe in order to be a Christian. You don’t accept that God is the orchestrator of evil? Good, you are in good company. I certainly agree with you, and I suspect most Christians through the ages would too. I wonder if even Calvin would agree with Piper on this one.

Jeff, I fear Piper has become “mainstream”. I see people from non REformed churches reading his books all the time. My friends in seeker churches focused on church growth love him. I have been astonished at his rise in popularity in the last 15 years.

Maybe it is because I live at ground zero and it is simply just seeping over. I don’t know but he is a household name here not only in the SBC but in Presbyterian, Non Denominational churches, Methodist, etc.

And he does not come out and say God orchestrates evil. Had he been that honest, he would not be so popular. His teaching if people analyze it comes to that conclusion but he does not outright say it. If folks can give his “Scream of the Damned” a pass, then there is no telling what they will believe from him.

Bridget hit on something above. And it is their definition of the Sovereignty of God. That is where they take every single debate. They take every single disagreement back to that concept and try and paint it so you are claiming you do not believe God is omnipotent if you dare bring up any free will at all. In many ways they make not only the Cross but God redundant.

I find it ironic that they do not believe God is Sovereign enough to create beings who He gave the ability and allowance to reject Him.

For what it’s worth, “Scream of the Damned” is actually from RC Sproul, who you probably recall I respect a lot. But I am not in lock step with Sproul- there are a number of issue where I disagree with him. I don’t know why I’m saying that- I guess I just mean it in full disclosure.

“And he does not come out and say God orchestrates evil.” Right- but that was my driving point. Though Piper may be popular, this view of God orchestrating evil is not- at least not as popular as he is. So I’m saying it should not be treated as a necessary doctrine of Christianity, especially if it is a significant barrier to faith.

“For what it’s worth, “Scream of the Damned” is actually from RC Sproul, who you probably recall I respect a lot”

I did not know that originated with Sproul. If I remember correctly, both Piper and Mahaney preached Jesus was damned at Resolve in 2009.

dee wrote:

Been There
One thing is for sure, child sexual abuse will be handled differently.

This. From the Sandusky scandal, the Boy Scouts cover ups, to the disregard of molested children in SGM (and many other churches), I think people’s awareness to this issue is awakening. I’d like to see some laws amended to better protect children. But, until then, we can use our collective voices to make a difference.

Anon 1

Much agreement…
“Have you noticed that the focus is almost always on Paul as if Paul interprets Jesus? I think it is the other way around. Even Peter said Paul was hard to understand.”

Yes – Seems most today in “the Abusive Religious system” focus on Paul…
And “Ignore” or “Twist” Jesus – And what Jesus taught His Disciples.

There was a time I had a hard time with Paul. I started to see many things Paul was saying, doing, that seemed way different then Jesus. So I went back to the Gospels and focused on what Jesus was saying.

Today when questions arise…
First course of action is finding out, trying to understand, what Jesus said and taught…
Then understanding what Paul said and meant – in light of Jesus…
First Jesus – Then reconciling what Paul said – With Jesus.

When I can NOT align Paul – to match with Jesus…
I just put it on the shelf – And stick with Jesus for the time being. Until revelation comes.
Sometimes months – Sometimes years…

Yes – Paul said many things, the apostles who walked with Jesus, found hard to understand.

Still haven’t got it all figured out, still have some questions – but…
Today I see Paul, and why he taught what he did, and what he meant, a lot differently.

@ Anon 1

“Have you noticed that the focus is almost always on Paul as if Paul interprets Jesus?”

I would go even further, particularly in the case of Calvinistas, and say that they have ripped Jesus out of the Trinity and replaced him with Paul. I’ve listened to innumerable lectures by Calvinista seminary professors and to a man (no women allowed, of course) they quote Paul almost exclusively and rarely quote Jesus when discussing their unique doctrines.

Also, for a view of Paul that is in sharp contrast to the oppressive Paul presented by conservative, I recommend the book Liberating Paul by Neil Elliott – I audited a class on Paul he taught at a seminary and came to see Paul as very much misused by conservatives.

“There was a time I had a hard time with Paul. I started to see many things Paul was saying, doing, that seemed way different then Jesus. So I went back to the Gospels and focused on what Jesus was saying”

Me too. Now I read Paul totally different.

SGM Survivors has posted the amendments to the lawsuit. I am feeling ill.

@ Anon 1

“I do not know what you mean by “conservatives” though. What paradigm are you using? Heirarchy? Inerrancy?”

Good point. By “conservative” in this context I mean those who use the Bible to advocate a socially conservative agenda of male supremacy, submission to authority, slavery apologists, etc.

Here is a link: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2013/01/14/amended-lawsuit/

I am feeling sick to my stomach. It’s worse by far than I suspected.

I’m sure these scriptures have been posted on this blog before somewhere. They are just the first few that come immediately to mind:

But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 19: 14

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!” Matthew 18: 6-7

What Bible are you reading from SGM? Or do you worship your own pet doctrines? Is this how the Body of Christ operates? Is this the kind of example you’re setting?

RE: dee on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 03:03 PM,

I agree Dee. No matter how much back-pedaling he tries or how much damage control his handlers try and react with, at day’s end (when this whole imbroglio concludes) Mohler will have lost beau coup currency in the evangelical world.

“Upon information and belief, Paula Poe was not the only victim of this p-* ring operating within the School and Church.

Upon information and belief, the p- ring’s victims included children who subsequently went on to prey upon other young children.”

I am going to throw up. “Repeatedly abused by Defendent Tomzcak.” Words are failing me.

* using this abbreviation so as to not draw horrible awful searches to TWW, hope that’s not too paranoid. 🙁

Just went over to read it. Oh my word. I think we are seeing a bigger picture about the blackmail here. CJ has been obstructing justicefor victims of heinous crimes for a long time…. it seems.

It would be interesting to go back and look at all the sermons, writings with a focus on sex. I have long been concerned that the evangelical laser like focus on sex is going to result in some sick stuff.

@ Eagle:

Eagle,
I hope you can access that SGMsurvivors link that is posted here. I couldn’t possibly repeat what was written. It’s the sordid details of people who were molested as children. Can you imagine experiencing something like that in church and then struggling to find out who God really is? It will turn your stomach.

From the courier journal link:

“Sovereign Grace has not yet filed a formal response. But it has issued statements after the original lawsuit saying it deplores sexual abuse and has policies to prevent it, while saying the complaint contained mischaracterizations and amounted to a religious-freedom challenge by trying to get a court to second-guess pastoral guidance.”

Amazing they try to make protecting abusers a religious freedom issue. Sounds like Islam Sharia law.

You bet we are second guessing”pastoral guidance”.

Anon 1 wrote:

Al Mohler: That arrogant quote you gave in defense of Mahaney to the Courier Journal about bloggers just not liking his strong leadership…you cannot scrub from the internet.
You have protected and promoted some sick people when you hooked up with SGM.

Dee, perhaps you could do a new banner header on the front page of TWW with Big Al’s quote noted above?

I am enraged right now.

…Is that THE Larry Tomczak who just got added to that lawsuit or his son? Didn’t Tomczak Sr. co-found SGM, or am I confusing him with someone else? (Abuse spanning 25 years would seem to indicate it was Tomczak Sr., unless his son is older than I thought he was.)

This seems to have just gotten a lot worse for SGM. I’m having trouble picturing a scenario in which a jury would look favorably on this information, unless it comes out that it is all completely fake (which I don’t believe for a second). All SGM needs to do is look at the current popular perception of the Catholic church to know how this will likely turn out for them.

Also, when did the Harrises get involved with CLC?

I’m sorry. I thought it had his first name. I guess when we see the redacted document later, we’ll get the full name. But I hardly think it is Larry’s son, since his eldest is about 30 years old.

Yes, it is extremely perverted. It is not natural or acceptable, especially for a father to see a daughter/female relative naked even before puberty, let alone after. The fact that this was a grown woman with a developed body is unbelievable. It is also really sad that this adult thought that they had to be subject to this kind of abuse. I had a father who thought it was acceptable to whip his children with a belt well after puberty (not naked, of course and thank God), but who was abusive, nonetheless. One day it had come to me that I didn’t have to allow this man to beat me anymore. And I began to fight back physically. But you know what people in the church did and said to me when I began to fight back, that I was part of the problem. That I needed to own my own wrongs in the situations. They failed to acknowledge my RIGHT to DEFEND MYSELF in the face of ABUSE. Needless to say, it effed up my head and my relationship with God. And it caused huge amounts of depression and suicidal thoughts within me. It caused great brokeness, self-hatred and a mistrust for others. My relationships suffered because of it. I had a lot to be healed from. Yet, it has happened, but not without work and hardship, but nevertheless, I have been restored in so many ways. I’ll never let anyone in the church ever tell me what to do again with my life. It’s my own life and I”ll do what I darn well please. These people are not equipped to counsel, neither are they qualified to do so.

My heart goes out to these victims. There are no words.

Rafiki said~

“Anon 1 wrote:

Al Mohler: That arrogant quote you gave in defense of Mahaney to the Courier Journal about bloggers just not liking his strong leadership…you cannot scrub from the internet. You have protected and promoted some sick people when you hooked up with SGM.

Dee, perhaps you could do a new banner header on the front page of TWW with Big Al’s quote noted above?”

Excellent idea. And let’s not to forget Ligon Duncans’s little gem (which has disappeared from the Reformation21 website):

“I would… encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.” (quote- Kinnon.tv)

My heart goes out to everyone hurt by SGM. I haven’t read the new post yet.
It sounds horrible. May God have mercy on the victims.

Diane wrote:

“I would… encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.” (quote- Kinnon.tv)

Because SGM is God’s Predestined Elect, and God’s Predestined Elect Can Do No Wrong.

Humbly, of course.

Hester wrote:

The Scream of the Damned is just weird, no matter where it originated. I remember one of the guys on that Resolved video saying “we are saved because He screamed.” What?!?!?! That’s just plain wrong. Jesus is never even said to have screamed in the Bible and it certainly isn’t part of the atonement.

The Gospel according to Sam Kinnison?

Dear all

To clear up a couple of points

I think The Scream of the Damned phrase was first used by CJ Mahaney at the Resolved Conference in 2008 and then preached on by Mr Piper after the tea break. You can find details here

http://crosschurch.net/the-cross-the-scream-of-the-damned/

I have absolutely nothing to do with SGM. As I’ve said before, until I came across TWW I had never heard of them nor had I heard of most of the ‘players’. So, not for the first time Dee, you elevate your opinion to fact (and in doing so cause deliberate offense, in my opinion. Cancel our dance 🙂 ). It’s a bit like the Alexa stats.

I have no nefarious agenda. I am concerned that with so much comment whizzing through the internet about the forthcoming court case it is going to be difficult to pick a jury who have absolutely no prior knowledge of the accused and that would prejudice a fair trial.

Church discipline is not the only court to which these matters should be referred. It is self-evident that if a crime has been committed then criminal prosecutors must be involved from the outset.

And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.

None of the above is specifically Calvinist, but it is Biblical.

gavin white wrote:

And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.

That’s the point, Gavin. You seem to be saying that that since we are all affected,we should shut up because talking about it makes us look bad. You don’t seem to be able to “hear” that abused people are told to shut up, and that is exactly what allows the abuse to continue. The truth is that talking about it is the only thing that makes it stop. This SGM scandal does affect the whole body of Christ, and it needs to stop – at SGM and elsewhere. Being quiet and polite does not get the job done. The stories should cause outrage among Christians and non-Christians and that is what will cause fear in the predators and strengthen the rest of us. We are mad as hell and we are not going to take it any more.

Your advice is not received well because it echoes the manipulation of the abuser. “Be quiet. Don’t tell. You’re just as bad because you did it too.”

Dana
For the sake of repeating myself,what I am saying does not echo the manipulation of the abuser and it is time you and Moniker realised it. Talking about it does not make it stop, only a successful prosecution might. And that will only happen if you stop cheering from the sidelines and prejudicing the case.

Gavin, I’m sure they’ll have no problem finding 12 people (or however many there will be) in Montgomery County who have no prior knowledge of Sovereign Grace Ministries, in spite of our discussing it on the internet. Even you yourself said that you never hear of SGM until you read about it on TWW. The best way to stop it is for the members of the Body of Christ to be aware of what’s going on. We are the ones who must stop it from happening in the first place, and that won’t happen if the members of the “family” are kept in the dark.

@ Gavin:

I promise you, if I were to mention SGM to the average non-Christian on the ground, they would not know what I talking about. As you pointed out with the Alexa stats, there are hundreds of thousands of sites that are read much more than TWW, and in all honesty the Christian blogosphere (whether liberal or conservative) caters to a relatively small niche community. They will have no trouble finding an unbiased jury because the average non-Christian or nominal Christian on the ground does not read the Christian blogosphere. If they could do it with the Cheshire home invasion, they can certainly do it with SGM.

If you want the jury pool to remain unbiased, you should be picking on news outlets like the AP and the Washington Post for dragging the story into the national light, as they are much more likely to be read/seen by the average guy. Yes, the Christian blogosphere broke the story, but the AP, etc. didn’t have to pick it up.

gavin white wrote:

I have no nefarious agenda. I am concerned that with so much comment whizzing through the internet about the forthcoming court case it is going to be difficult to pick a jury who have absolutely no prior knowledge of the accused and that would prejudice a fair trial.

Not likely. The NHL lockout ended and play starts this week. Both the lockout and the start to the season have received much more blog and news coverage than SGM yet you could easily find a jury of folks unaware that either event has taken place.

And now that you’ve returned, can you address the question from a few days ago regarding whether you earn money from selling books, preaching, music, or any other such thing to the Christian world?

“And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.”

We would not want to make the rest of the Body of Christ uncomfortable with negative truths or by supporting the victims of the “Body of Christ”. Thank you Gavin, such wisdom and compassion. (Sounds more like being concerned for the protection of th gurus who associate with Mahaney)

“None of the above is specifically Calvinist, but it is Biblical.”

Your interpretation. Now try, agai,n to shut people up. Silence is what caused all this in the first place.

By the way, folks, Gavin is using the exact same tactics SGM used a while back to shame folks on reading blogs.

Did anyone see Driscoll’s latest tweet about blogging? Sounds like the typical arrogant Reformed response to blogs they don’t like even because they do not control the communication”

“For God so loved the world he did not send a blogger to pontificate about what others were doing. He sent his son to get stuff done!”

Isn’t he deep in the way he twists scripture and ignores his own reality of blogging?

Dee
Been there, done that, which is why I linked with you on Linkedin, just to give you an idea of my background.

I’m not interested in taking you down. Unlike you I don’t carry a gun.

And in between posts- while you’ve all been spitting fire and venom – like the good complementarian that I am, I’ve done the housework and am now off to do some shopping.
🙂 🙂 🙂

Anon

Just caught your reply. You and Eagle do love plausible deniability. I promise you that I will try it some time. Anyway off to the shops, feather duster in my holster.

Thanks Gavin. I’m sure I will find it much more enlightening than “Shut up. It’s Biblical. I said so.”

Dee – Yeah, I’m a little weirded out by Gavin enlisting Elie Weisel on his “shut up” side of the argument. *Shrug*

And just as a child doesn’t get to ‘pick’ its family, so believers don’t get to pick their ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’. The point here is, that any scandal affects the whole body of Christ, not just the victims and the accused.

This is exactly why it needs to be talked about and “outside” authorities and help need to be saught. “Families” generally want to keep the problem covered up because of the shame and pain involved. The “Family” is concerned about the “Family Name” instead of the person harmed, firstly, and stopping the perpetrator from continuing . . . which is what happens IF NO ONE SPEAKS ABOUT IT. (Excuse the small shout out here folks). We have seen the hush/hush played out in families, denominations, and countries. It has only made the problem worse.

I am quite sure that God is capable of assuring that His name is not tarnished, Gavin. Where there is light, darkness must flee.

Maybe Gavin believes that right doctrine ensures holy living? I say this without any irony or criticism.

I dare say, that many of us (myself included) fell for this type of thinking and had a defensive reaction when one of our doctrinal heroes fell from grace.

It is my prayer and hope that these stories never die. And if you think that your comments here will shut down the discussion, or even change the focus or direction of the discussion, then you are severely outnumbered. People are no longer concerned about “fairness” when it is well-known that these men covered up the rapes, sodomization, physical abuse, etc… in these families and victims. You should know that the truth shall set us free. Yet, in your world, only truths that you are comfortable with or ones that dont shake your world view, are truths that should be told. I think you’re afraid Gavin. I think people like you are shaking in your boots because your lives depend so heavily on your theological beliefs, your religious beliefs, that there is no room for difference or change. Your entire existence up to this point is hinged upon your beliefs–which are fallible and can easily be proven wrong. Therefore, I feel sorry for you. (deletion by editor)

As someone who suffered abuse as a child and a young person, I find it deplorable that people like you think that THEY can tell the world how to handle such situations. Gavin, your heart and mind are overcome with infection. I feel sorry for any child, any adult, any broken or hurt person that would ever cross your path looking for comfort and safety. You are not safe. And you are no safehaven for the suffering.

If God truly is the author and director of our paths, I pray that he would never allow a hurt soul to come near you. You, sir, are a cancer and a danger to the abused, to the hurt, the disenfranchised, the marginalized and anyone in dire need of the love of Jesus Christ.

Your concerns and focus are absent of any real tangible, or felt concern for such heinous crimes and offenses towards the innocent. Maybe you are such a person that would only get it if someone stuck their foot in your rear. But then, with a heart like yours and beliefs such as yours, maybe not. Afterall, it would be God’s Sovereignty, wouldn’t it?

These men you keep defending, and yes, you are defending them, are so far from any qualification that the Bible you depend on would hold them to. Yet, you argue for them. If who you are is representative of the church, then I would surely vow to never step foot in another. You are unfit to represent Christ to others.

Dee’s note, through the eyes of a complementarian:

I was NOT elected to be the 8th grade class president (of course, cuz you’re a girl) and only served one year on the student council (amazed a chick lasted that long). I can’t sew (odd, since that’s your job) and I was terrible in sports (cuz you’re a girl) and proably rank in the bottom 3% of the population in coordination ( as do most gals) But, puppies and small children seem to like me (which is why you should be at home with them).

Fixed that for you, dee, so the SGM fans can understand it!

@ Gavin:

“The Alexa stats, if you believe them, show that TWW has a very respectable audience given that in March 2012 there were 644,275,754 active websites (figure courtesy of Netcraft). And from what I’ve read so far, unbiased is not a word I would associate with your average Joe over there.”

Unclear on the antecedent of “unbiased”…but if you were referring to TWW, who ever claimed that this site was unbiased? No one has perfectly unbiased opinions and certainly most bloggers don’t (otherwise why would they be blogging?). Your bias is certainly showing through on this thread, as is Dee’s. And that’s fine. I, for one, prefer sifting through and understanding someone’s bias to get at the facts over pining for “unbiased” sources that don’t exist.

Also, none of the above disproves my point about the jury pool at all. According to Wikipedia, Montgomery County, MD has a population of 971,777. Are you seriously claiming that the efforts of TWW and SGM Survivors will bias the jury pool to such an extent that the Montgomery County court(s) will not be able to find 12 people who have no opinion on and/or have never heard of SGM?

@ gavin white:
Good monologue. It definitely improves my perspective of you. But I’d like to know why you didn’t state any of this earlier instead of taking potshots at us for being gun-slinging wild-westerners. Or posting Alexa links and telling us not to get “puffed up.” If we were being so uncivilized in our discourse, why did you not set a better example of your Christian living and state what you just stated before. You contributed to the inflammatory remarks in this thread. Please do not play the injured party here. I do, however, appreciate what you’ve just shared. Thank you.

Brad
I tried the test and came out INFJ.

I appreciate your comments and what Hester said.

Been there done that
It wasn’t a monologue, it was an explanation, one I’ve given in part in other threads in this blog. Nor am I playing the injured party. I am very unhappy at the slurs. But I’ll get over it.

Addendum @ Brad:

“I’ve been part of the commenting community here at TWW for about a year now, and I’ve seen this pattern happen only one other time that I can recall, with Jimmy, when an increasingly large percentage of interaction surrounded his comments, many of which seemed *designed* to agitate … actually, more to inflame.”

You are correct. From what I read of him, Jimmy was basically a “drive-by shooter” whereas Gavin usually responds to any objections.

@ gavin white: So this explains your insensitive comments on slavery in the Americas a while back?!!

I don’t understand you at all, dude – you seem to really enjoy defending calvinistas *and* taking sarcastic potshots at many of us… and then you claim to be an advocate for the oppressed?

Sheesh. My BS meter is off the scale right now.

@ brad/futuristguy: That’s kind of you, brad, and you’ve got some good points… but I honestly can’t remember another UK-based commenter who was so supposedly “misunderstood” on this site, nor who was inclined to make snarky slams against other commenters.

Agreed that some things don’t “translate” well, but hey – a lot of us Colonials seem to love English TV shows and books (both lit and “low culture”-type books), so I find myself feeling awfully skeptical regarding the supposed cultural gap here. (Not to say that there are no cultural differences – the UK itself is very culturally divers! – but still…)

Side note, I just found the most excellent video on the facts of evolution. It’s an hour long, but especially the second half on genetics will blow your mind, promise. http://fendrel.wordpress.com/facts-of-evolution/

I do remember a time when Gavin deliberately chose to say something in a way that would incite passions, and then later labeled it as a tool to help people see things in themselves. But what is a tool to Gavin is largely “playing games” to others. I prefer people to be direct, present their views, and grow through the exchange of ideas, not tactics. I’ve seen this time and time again from Gavin, and it really frustrates me because it detracts from anything positive he’s saying.

For what it’s worth, I am an INTJ, which is a very small part of the population and makes me a good abstract thinker. It’s only one letter difference than Gavin, but it makes a huge difference.

Anyway, I’m not trying to defend him- I don’t think he has a nefarious agenda, but I do think his desire to push buttons and teach people about what he sees in them (this is the “F” part of him) gets in the way of beneficial discussion.

I really wish he would turn his “intuitive feeling” radar on the victims of abuse rather than the commenters here.

@ Jeff, anon 1, & Dee:

“But what is a tool to Gavin is largely ‘playing games’ to others. I prefer people to be direct, present their views, and grow through the exchange of ideas, not tactics. I’ve seen this time and time again from Gavin, and it really frustrates me because it detracts from anything positive he’s saying.”

“Insulting humor often backfires.”

As a counterbalance to my previous comment – I do agree with the above as well. I have found several of Gavin’s comments to be much closer to backhanded insults than productive discussion, whether he intended them to read that way or not. In other words, I can see some fault on both sides of this issue.

“I am happy to compare this blog’s acceptance of difficult comments and commenters with other blogs. We are far more accepting of differing points of views, even when it makes us cringe.”

This is true, hands down. If it were not, we would not be having this discussion as Gavin would have been banned immediately merely for disagreeing (forget snark).

Jeff, I thought your comments were even-handed and a pretty good reflection of my views also. I’m glad we’re getting this all out in the open and I hope it will be productive in the long run, for both “sides.”

@ Jeff:

I am also an INTJ according to the online Meyers-Briggs test. Are INTJs really that small a percentage of the population?

Hester wrote:

@ Jeff:
I am also an INTJ according to the online Meyers-Briggs test. Are INTJs really that small a percentage of the population?

Yup.

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/my-mbti-results/how-frequent-is-my-type.asp

Though in my field (software developer) the percentage is very high.

I actually test almost neutral on the I/E axis though. I used to be pegged as an introvert, but that has changed with age.

I/ENTP here. I am on the cusp of I/E. But believe the E is more nurture than nature as I get my energy from being alone.

Thanks for the link Brad. Note how many more F’s there are. That is significant. I think the political campaign strategists know this! (wink)

I am a former MBTI facilitator. Have not done it in years but facilitated it with groups for 15 yrs.

There is no date on the chart. It would be interesting to see if the stats changed from say the early 90’s to more recent.

Dear All
I am still surprised at the depth of feeling some of my comments have aroused and disappointed to still be on the receiving end of unfounded and derogatory character assassination And I’m not thin skinned. So this will be my last post. I wish you well

@ Concerned for the kids:

Concerned, I wrote this on the "Joe Paterno" thread, and I am NOT excusing the milquetoast statements in response to the lawsuit coming from SGM/CLC, but this is about lawyers, lawyers, lawyers.

The organization's every public utterance is being scrubbed and re-scrubbed by their legal team, period. These words are crafted to best position the organization vis-a-vis its legal strategy, and for no other reason.

You'll see no truth, contrition, or admission to even an iota of responsibility in their public statements now that the suit has been filed.

@ Moniker:

Yep, it’s a pathetic bunch of priorities.

I had to “lawyer up” myself several years ago, due to an abusive workplace environment. In the face of overwhelming and very public evidence, the abuser (who was my supervisor) was finally held accountable and an internal investigation commenced.

It was then that I learned that my organization’s highest priority and concern was NOT for me or other employees. The priority was to further shield and salvage their reputation and protect themselves at all costs from any legal action that could arise based on their sheltering of the abusive supervisor (for YEARS).

None of you know me, but believe me when I say that I never, ever, EVER thought I’d be in such a situation – EVER. And it was a real shocker when I had to hire legal counsel to protect myself, as I thought that would be my organization’s top priority. Boy, was I naive.

Hester wrote:

@ Jeff:
I came out really strong (70-some percent) on I, N and J. I had a 12% preference (“slight”) for T. It wasn’t the official test, only a short online version, but I remember the last time I took it it came out similar.

So basically, you are awesome! We “masterminds” have to stick together you know 🙂