(Women) can’t handle stress, they can’t handle anything. You walk up to them with an issue. They freak out right away… I’ve seen it happen at airports, at banks, the post office… Because it’s not in their nature. -Jesse Peterson.
Sean Hannity-public domain
This post is in the form of a letter which is being sent to Sean Hannity at Fox News. The intent of this post is not to debate political positions. It is to expose the thinking of some pastors in the conservative church in America.
Dear Mr. Hannity
Recently, some readers who comment on our blog, The Wartburg Watch, a Christian issues site, alerted us to a segment on your television show that involved what appears to be an unscripted encounter between Kirsten Powers, a Democrat strategist, and Jesse Peterson, a pastor.
Most people would call me conservative in both my faith, an evangelical Christian, and my politics. Throughout the years, I have watched your show and am gratified that you support people of faith. From my understanding, you are a devout Roman Catholic.
Although I generally trend right in my politics, I have always admired and followed Kirsten Powers who I believe is a leading voice of reason in the political opinion arena. I was also interested to learn that, after years of being an avowed atheist, Ms. Powers has embraced the Christian faith link.
I’m an Orthodox Christian. I’d say evangelical but that word is too loaded with cultural baggage, so I say Orthodox instead. I came to this faith later in life so for people who have known me for a long time this fact is still a bit of a mind bender. Honestly, it’s still kind of a mind bender for me too considering the atheistic world in which I happily resided for so long.
Therefore, I was startled when the usually well-spoken, polite Powers was seemingly incensed by the presence of Reverend Peterson. I want to commend you for allowing her to address Rev. Peterson directly. Unless one is aware of some comments by Peterson, the confrontation initiated by Powers might have seemed out of line. However, in my opinion, Powers was right to address this issue in a public forum.
Once again, it was my readers who informed me of the following video by Peterson that might throw some light on the reason for Powers' rebuke of the Reverend.
According to several websites, this video has been taken down and then put back up, scrubbed of some of the offensive statements. Thankfully, there are bloggers out here who are willing to make sure the truth is known. From NewsHounds link, we can find a transcript of some of these statements.
- My America is gone… and short of God intervening, I don’t see any turnaround… I realize that one of the primary reasons… that it is over for America is because women are taking over… Most cannot (make sound decisions).
- One thing I know for sure, without a doubt, women cannot handle power. It’s not in them to handle power in the right way. They don’t know what to do with it.
- When men were in charge, they were tougher, you know, and more solid.
- Not all, not all, not all, but most (women) turned into little whores. (He cited Sandra Fluke as an example).
- We leave a woman to herself in the home, she destroys the family.
- Just as men need to be guided by Christ, women need to be guided by men.
- Women’s rights are “a trick from Satan.”
- The fact that women are now doing oral sex, this (is) evil, nothing but evil. (Editors note: he apparently has not heard of Mark Driscoll)
- (Women) can’t handle stress, they can’t handle anything. You walk up to them with an issue. They freak out right away… I’ve seen it happen at airports, at banks, the post office… Because it’s not in their nature.
- One of the greatest mistakes that America made was to allow women the opportunity to vote. We should never have turned it over to women… It was a big mistake… These women are voting in the wrong people.
- Men in the good old days understood the nature of the woman… They understood if you let them take over, this is what would happen.
- This is how evil is coming in… It’s coming through the woman.
- Look at every place where a woman is in control. Maybe not all, not all, but most. You see nothing but confusion.
- You need to only have sex to make a baby. There’s no other need for sex.
- The man is the head of the wife.
- We have to come back to words like whore, slut and evil.
Mr. Hannity, I know that people of faith can debate the role of women in the church, especially serving in the capacity of priests and pastors. However, that disputation does not appear to be the subject of Rev. Peterson's words. I find it difficult to believe that any man of good will could hold to such views on women.
I did some investigating and found that the Reverend Peterson is, according to Wikipedia and BOND link
…president and founder of The Brotherhood Organization of A New Destiny (BOND), an American group dedicated to a conservative agenda among African Americans. Peterson is also the Founder and President of BOND Action, Inc., a nonprofit, 501 (c) (4) organization.
The BOND website here lists you, along with Dr Walter Williams, a man that I also follow, as members of the advisory board for BOND. In light of these comments, I would ask that you consider severing your ties with this organization. Apparently, I am not the only one who has requested this of you. There is now a Facebook page "Sean Hannity-Resign from BOND Board" here.
Once again, I want to commend you for allowing Kirsten Powers to confront Reverend Peterson. She now has me as a loyal fan. I leave the ball in your court.
Dee Parsons
Co-editor of The Wartburg Watch
Raleigh, NC
dee@thewartburgwatch.com
919-792-8632
Lydia's Corner: Numbers 26:52-28:15 Luke 3:1-22 Psalm 61:1-8 Proverbs 11:16-17
I think I hear the sound of flamethrowers being loaded as we speak… Good for Dee.
“One thing I know for sure, without a doubt, women cannot handle power. … When men were in charge, they were tougher, you know, and more solid.”
Does this mean Queen Elizabeth is allowed to rise from the dead and whoop Rev. Peterson at her leisure? And, come to think of it, the current Queen Elizabeth might have something to say about this too. I also want to know what Peterson thinks of Sarah Palin’s term as Alaskan governor. Or is Palin one of his “special” women to whom his statements magically don’t apply? I thought so.
“(Women) can’t handle stress, they can’t handle anything. You walk up to them with an issue. They freak out right away…”
I’ve seen plenty of men do this too – just watch the news sometime. I guess it’s not in their natures. Ergo women should rule the world.
“The fact that women are now doing oral sex, this (is) evil, nothing but evil.”
Funny – isn’t it usually the men requesting/demanding this evil act?
“Women’s rights are ‘a trick from Satan.’ … One of the greatest mistakes that America made was to allow women the opportunity to vote.”
There are no words. How can Hannity associate with this man in good conscience? Do the women of the Tea Party (and I only know female Tea Partiers) know that some of their leaders want to take away their constitutional rights? I thought the Tea Party was all about the Constitution. Maybe I was wrong.
“Look at every place where a woman is in control. Maybe not all, not all, but most. You see nothing but confusion.”
Yeah, ’cause, ya know, Deborah was just a big idiot. What a god-awful leader she was. I guess Rev. Peterson knows more than God about picking good leaders.
“You need to only have sex to make a baby. There’s no other need for sex.”
So Rev. Peterson is emulating the worst parodies of Catholicism?
“We have to come back to words like whore, slut and evil.”
Someone here is evil but I don’t think it’s Elizabeth Cady Stanton.
I am dumbfounded that an African American would make such awful statements about women and the right to vote. *His* right to vote was more than likely secured by the sacrifices of many women volunteers during the Civil Right movement era… (Men, too, of course, but definitely women!)
It’s true. Women can’t handle stress. That’s why the actual population of the world is zero. 🙂
I noticed that Rev Peterson wasn’t wearing a wedding ring. Could it be no woman can tolerate him unless he is paying by the hour?
I’m too tired for a long post and need to go to bed but I will only say, using a rather known Internet meme… Mr Peterson, y u so mad?
The levels of kookiness in some people are really astonishing.
@ numo
Exactly! Just substitute “blacks” for “women” in his quotes and few will dispute just how bigoted this is.
Seanr wrote:
Maybe no woman will take him even when paid by the hour and in true ‘men’s rights movement’ style, he blames women for everything because he’s to deluded/ignorant to examine himself?
Idiot. He’s just jealous…
@ Pam & Seanr:
I think he is married.
Also, wouldn’t it be a hoot and a half if Hannity got torqued and “critiqued” Dee’s letter on his TV and/or radio show?
I have never heard of any of these people before, but my first thought when I read those sickening remarks and noticed that Peterson was an African American (that is the correct term? I know this is a touchy area for Americans and I don’t want to inadvertently say something offensive):
if for ‘women’ you substituted ‘blacks’ or any other racial designation into those remarks, how would he respond? And most of them, I’m sure, are the same sort of thing that has been said by racists. Crazyville.
And good on Dee for taking him on
Dee,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This pastor's sweeping generalizations about women are absolutely astounding.
Hester,
I loved your rebuttals. Well done!
To our friends from Australia
I just saw this. is this what you all were talking about.
http://weather.aol.com/2013/01/10/photos-menacing-dust-storm-hits-australia
dee,
I saw that ‘Red Wave’ on the news tonight. What a scary sight!
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/01/australia-dust-storm-photos/60828/
@ Eagle:
But of course any woman brought forward to refute his broad generalizations doesn’t count because he inserted the all-important caveat “not all women.” In other words, he can’t be proven wrong because he added the Almighty Disclaimer.
I’m sorry to go a wee bit off topic here – and I might return tomorrow or whenever to address this blog’s original post, and any on the last thread that were in reply to me, but, I wanted to stop by long enough to at least alert you all to this.
I hope I have the right link. If it’s not this one, it’s another recent “Bring It On” segment from “The 700 Club” television program.
In the show I saw, Robertson was answering someone’s question. (Show viewers write in for advice, and he answers.)
I don’t remember what letter he was replying to, but he ended up sounding a lot like -was it Mark Driscoll who blamed a married man, a pastor, for cheating on his wife because she let herself go?
In this segment, Robertson tells his female co-host about a male pastor who told him of a woman who came to see him because she was afraid that her husband was drinking more and more.
Robertson seems to approve of how his pastor friend handled this.
Robertson said the wife in this story his pastor friend told him about was terrible looking, and his pastor friend told her, “If my wife looked like you, I’d drink too.”
Then Robertson goes on to say a woman should stay in shape for her man, it’s part of keeping a romantic spark alive in marriage.
If you’re married and your husband cheats, it’s because you’re an ugly battle ax and you deserve it, seems to be the idea with Robertson.
Here is the link (the part I am talking about is prefaced by a question about dieting):
700 Club Show, ‘Bring It On’
So… if a married Christian woman cheats because her husband is slobby looking or overweight, is it okay to be empathetic with her and blame the husband for letting himself go? Why do we never hear the male pastors address that??
(Of course I don’t believe it’s okay, but I’m just noticing the double standard on this.)
At least the female co-host seemed upset by Robertson’s reply. (The female co hosts usually are when he gets into these sexist or insensitive views).
Any way, if I got the wrong “Bring It On” link, you can go to 700 Club’s “Bring It On” main page and click around until you find it. It was in yesterday or today’s show.
I’ve been a conservative Christian for years, but in all this time, I don’t recall hearing anyone outside of conservative male Christians blame women if their husband has an affair.
By the way, I don’t think looks necessarily matter. Tiger Woods, the famous golf player, had a beautiful wife, and he cheated on her with lots of women, and some of his mistresses were not, IMHO, as pretty as his wife.
Apparently, when Pat looks in the mirror he sees perfection.
The third panelist on the Great American Panel was the Mourdock candidate from Indiana who made the controversial comments regarding abortion following a rape and subsuquently lost the election. In the early part of the intervifew they’re talking about whether he’ll win the primary challenge against Richard Lugar, so this must be almost a year old. Why are we just hearing about this now?
dee wrote:
We get those monster dust storms happening every so often. Those photos are pretty spectacular. But what we were talking about a few days ago was extreme heat – Sydney was 42 Celcius on Tuesday(108 Fahrenheit), and quite a few places inland were even hotter. One town, Oodnadatta (out in the desert in South Australia, close to the centre of the country) had one week straight of temperatures above 45 Celcius (113 Fahrenheit). We’ve also had a lot of fires, but so far no deaths, thankfully.
I think that ginormous dust storm (on the opposite side of the continent to us) is a result of the extraordinary weather. Inland Australia can get fearsomely hot in summer (as you would expect from deserts that extend up into the tropics) but it has never been recorded before over such a large area (most of the continent) or for so long. They’re still not predicting any end in sight to what they have named the “dome of heat”. Here in Sydney, because of our geography, we’ve been spared most of it, but even here it’s been so extremely dry that my husband hasn’t had to mow the lawn for over 4 weeks — in mid-summer! The last 2 years were abnormally high rainfall, hence a lot of fresh growth in bushland and grasslands. Now it’s all dried out, it’s a bit like sitting on a powder keg for communities in those environments. I have relatives and acquaintances in the fire services, and they’re bracing themselves, knowing the conditions are all set up for some out of control fires.
Lets see, weren’t Tim Gurley, Graham Spanier, & Joe Paterno all men, and weren’t they in charge of things at Penn State?
Jerry Sandusky. Pretty sure he was a guy, too.
That guy Patterson would fit right in theologically with the CBMW crowd like Randy Stinson and CJ Mahaney. Not to mention Wayne Grudem, Mark Dever and Al Mohler.The only difference is in the delivery. Message is essentially the same.
@ Lynne T,
And to think their are still some hard-core ixtian fundamentalists here in the States who still believe that climate change is bunk and just a socialist plot to ruin America’s sovereignty and usher in Obama as the antichrist.
American politics has never made sense to me — especially the fundamentalist wing! But I hadn’t heard that particular take before.
Lynne’s alternative version: global warming is caused by all the hot air they talk!
Martos wrote:
U mad, bro?
Problem, women?
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/33185154.jpg
@ Muff Potter:
I’m right wing politically and not deeply intrested in Global Warming, but I’m not sure you’re portraying the disagreement accurately. Most conservatives say the dispute is not if there is GW (global warming) or not, but what the cause of it is, and how much humanity’s role plays in it.
But GW is a topic that bores me, so I don’t keep up with every argument or article about it.
Oh my goodness! I am speechless. Who ordained this nut job?
I do have to wonder if Sean Hannity would agree with Peterson when it comes to his own wife?
Oh yes, one other thing, Mr. Peterson: women only need “birth control and condoms and all that stuff” when they are having sex with men. So it isn’t really a case of “us having to pay for them to have sex” is it?
Sergius
It has started to crop up in the blogs. I just heard about it. It may have taken a back seat to the elections, especialy since Murdouck was present. He, of course, dominated the news for a few days with his dumb staement regarding rape. Of course, he lost. I believe Al Mohler was a supporter.
Now that the election stuff has died down, other stuff may be bubbling back to the surface. However, I checked the BOND website while writing today and Hannity and Williams are still listed as advisors and board members which is startling, to say the least. Hence my email to him based on this post.
@ Lynne T: The New York Times reported 2 days ago that the US had its hottest summer ever recorded in 2012.
Last year we had exceptionally mild weather in the Northeast during the winter. This year is shaping up that way, too. It worries me. (Oh and… last year there were monster desert duststorms in Arizona; the city of Phoenix was engulfed by one.)
Hester wrote:
Does anyone but this guy believe this is a new practice? We have paintings and statues dating back 1000s of years depicting this and much more. Most folks don’t realize how sanitized many museum displays are.
This is appalling. It is my suspicion that the “reformed/calvinista” crowd thinks these sentiments while Mr. Petersen at least had the courage of his convictions to voice them on the record. Still appalling.
@ Daisy,
One of the cool things about TWW is that old lefty FDR socialists like me and young conservatives like you can swim in the same fishbowl together and not get our fins and scales ruffled. Find me another blog with the tolerance and diversity found here at TWW, and I’ll tap dance like James Cagney did in Yankee Doodle Dandy
@ Lynn: ‘Tis true re. sanitized museum displays!
As for sexual practices, I have my doubts that there is *anything* new under the sun. ; )
Excellent, concise letter – I do hope that the pushback on Hannity grows some legs. Well done!
Saw this today in the Washington Post – I have absolutely never ever heard of Pastor Louie Giglio from Atlanta, but looks like he’s off the list of speakers for President Obama’s Inauguration.
Seems that some of his past sermons rousing the faithful to Battle The Gay have been brought to the Inaugural Committee’s attention …
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/01/10/louie-giglio-pulls-out-of-inaugural-over-anti-gay-comments/
The Rev’s comments read like a hoax or really bad April Fool’s Day joke, I had to re-read the sources you cited to believe it was real. I’m still in a state of disbelief I think. Evidence of the regression of civilisation?
Dee & Deb
This is the stuff happening this week:
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/now-you-see-it-now-you-dont-weather-bureau-backtracks-from-50plus-forecast-20130109-2cfm5.html
and here’s one way to survive (if the link doesn’t work google “Coober Pedy”
http://media.smh.com.au/national/selections/need-to-beat-the-heat-move-underground-3945470.html
I couldn’t keep up with tracking the bushfires in NSW and Victoria on Tuesday – there were so many.
We lost more than 10,000 stock, mainly sheep, at Yass this week in the bushfires and starvation is looming for those who survived. I feel so bad I want to chuck a haybale in my car and drive it out, little good that it would do.
http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/feeding-stock-is-the-next-problem-20130110-2cjcx.html
Many fires are still not under control and have been burning all week – the fireys are exhausted. Saturday (Friday for you) is also looming to be a shocker with high temperatures and winds, though hopefully not as bad as Tuesday.
Un-be-liev-able
Appalling and profoundly anti-Christian ranting from this dreadful little man.
As an aside – please don’t cite Mrs Thatcher as an example of a woman handling power well.
As someone who came of age during her premiership le me assure you that she didn’t
This has nothing to do with her being a woman
It has everything to do with her being a psychopath
And there are plenty of Coservative politicians who I have a lot of time for just in case you think this is a purely political rant .
Elizabeth I on the other hand – probably the greatest English monarch!
Beth wrote:
Me suspects this is true also!!
They are using a man of color to present it because the race card can be used by so called conservatives too.
I am waiting for them to come out and say women shouldn’t own property or have their own money.
Haitch wrote:
Haitch, just want to add that my thoughts are with all of you in Australia as you cope with the heat and the wildfires. The devastation of wildfires in particular is just so horrible – the property and livestock losses are staggering.
Al-Jazeera English ran a piece last night that was truly eye-opening regarding the scale of the problem and sadly showed a large flock of severely burned sheep who were barely hanging on. 🙁
As a non-Australian I’m always struck by the generally positive and downright cheery demeanour that seems to be part of your national character(combined with a bit of the old British reserve) but in so many interviews and in particular with the farmer who owned those injured burned sheep, people’s desperation and grief was really palpable. I am so sorry.
This is old hat – the video and comments were publicized worldwide shortly after the program was aired in May 2012 and discussed in numerous forums on the internet.
The man’s statements are ridiculous and offensive but are in keeping with the tone of other remarks made about Hurricane Katrina and the Plantations.
As Mr Hannity is on the advisory board only, why should he resign? Maybe he’s been trying to advise the good reverend to be more reasonable. He might even turn out to be a force for good in the Bond organisation.
Oh and does Sandra Fluke have an agenda of her own?….let me think about that. Time personality of the are 2012? I don’t think so.
My prayers for cool weather and rain for our Aussie neighbors.
Jeebuz. So we now have another General in the War on Women in “Pastor” Peterson, part of the Nutcase Brigade along with Driscoll, with Sean Hannity in the ranks. Peterson must have learned from Al Mohler – when you say something stupid, take it down, edit it, and make like you never said it. Thank God there are those with the skills to make sure they can’t cover their idiocy so easily in the world of the Internet.
Muff, I still want to see you tap dancing.
Evie wrote:
Indeed. The Khmer Rouge, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, the “Crusades”, North Korea, the Argentine “Dirty War”, the Bosnian genocide, the Jonestown massacre… all were run by men. Now, admittedly, many of these questionable instances of leadership were not always hallmarked by confusion as such; indeed, there was a terribly inexorable purpose to their evil. But on a much tinier scale, here in central Scotland, I know of several small public-sector organisations that are drifting round in circles because their male boards can’t make a decision.
There’s really no empirical evidence that the ability to lead resides on the Y-chromosome. One may as well claim that, since the Bible Scriptures clearly state that God has fixed the earth so that it cannot be moved, either astronomy is a deception from satan or the earth must have an infinite mass and diluted gravity.
Gavin, I think it is more simplistic than even that. Just like Obama had weatherman underground terroist Bill Ayers as an advisor, Hannity is advising Peterson. It is all about political “doctrine” and alignments once again. A black conservative? Oh, we gotta jump on this bandwagon without doing our homework. I think it will come back to bit him big time. The price for stupidity is always higher for conservatives.
Muff
Thanks for the laugh!
I am glad to read this about Kirsten Powers. I have always enjoyed her commentary, and I too find her reasonable.
I also learned that Bob Beckel became a Christian. He still can be too aggressive, but the night I heard him give a short testimony to his faith, I was impressed.
This Peterson guy is off his rocker.
Gavin
Anyone ever tell you that you are soooo encouraging? I know that you know a lot. So do I and lots of people on this blog. If I missed this whole debate, then so did others. And, from the looks of things, I am correct in my assumption. So, feel free to skip this discussion since you already know what is going on.
Anon1
I think you’re right.
Dee
Thank you. I take comfort in my “Wee Book of Calvin” My favourite quote is “aye, in many ways Midsummer’ s Day is the start of winter and the nights are drawing in”
Pesky Wabbit
Hester wrote:
Paging Mark Driscoll…
Paging Mark Driscoll…
Paging Mark Driscoll…
Evie wrote:
Not to mention “fit right in theologically” with al-Wahab, Ayatollah Khomeini, his successors, and Mullah Omar.
As so many have pointed out…
Here you have one man telling women that Jesus ‘commands’ them to give their husbands oral sex, then on the other hand you have a man deciding that women are evil for giving men oral sex.
No matter what, women are wrong and sinful for not fitting into the boxes these men have personally designed and then declared, “Thus saith the Lord.”
Then these men wonder why women are beginning to question the leadership of men. It is arbitrary and confusing, absolutely no solid place to stand.
That is why Jesus is our Rock to stand on, no capricious and self-serving men.
Muff Potter wrote:
Muff, Global Warming seems to bring out the Fundamentalists on both sides. I’ve run into Global Warming activists who approach it AS a Fundamentalist religion with all the trappings — “DO YOU BE-LEEEEEEVE IN GLOBAL WARMING?!?!?!?!?”
And blaming Hy00manity on Global Warming et al seems to be part of the Baby Boomer self-flagellation you see all over. “Angst, Angst, Angst!”
I found this blog post on Mark Driscoll when I was trying to figure out why my own post on him (http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-im-not-fan-of-mark-driscoll-real.html) had several hundred hits in one day… I got linked! The lady already hundreds of comments on her post, taking on Mark for his comments about pontificating bloggers. Thought you might like to see it too. http://www.rageagainsttheminivan.com/2013/01/dear-pastor-mark-pontificate-this.html
Virginia
Thank you for sharing this. It amazes me that people think they can filter out the garbage and then take the “good.” The problem remains that the same weird theology that brought the baloney is uphoding the supposed good. Everyone gets it right some of the time that does not mean they should be pastors-see Pat Robertson or Benny Hinn.
@ Gavin:
I think many probably missed Rev. Peterson in amongst the election coverage.
Addendum @ Gavin:
Also, even if it is possible for Hannity to do good in the organization, it is still scary that Rev. Peterson rose to any kind of prominence within the Tea Party, what with his…shall we say, “unique” take on certain Americans’ constitutional rights.
I’m sure you occasionally deal with your own rogue nutcases on your side of the pond. : )
I find this offensive on my own behalf as well as on that of my daughters; one of whom is an outstanding Registered Nurse and the other a very, very fine administrator. Both, as I have mentioned before, are excellent mothers.
As I reread Mr. P’s exact words, it sounds as though he may be attempting to bully (“walk up to them with an issue”) women “at airports, at banks, the post office” and getting legitimate pushback — Go, Girls! (“they freak out.) Does it sound as those this guy has the capability to approach any woman with respect?
And Gavin, sir, Mr. Self-Consciously Superior Scot. (And I am Scots on both sides.) You are a bit of an ass. And you don’t make sense. I couldn’t help but be a bit pleased that you didn’t choose to comment on my story.
Per the global warming thing:
I’m in Daisy’s camp on this one. There are some in the U.S. who deny warming outright, but I think most conservative types dispute the fact that the warming is caused by people (“anthropogenic,” thus AGW = anthropogenic global warming), not that warming is occurring. I’ve done almost zero research on the topic and don’t have the necessary science background to understand all of it anyway, so I don’t really have an opinion one way or the other. When I did try to do some research to understand the non-anthropogenic view, I found a lot of doomers shouting NO THERE’S REALLY A GLOBAL ICE AGE COMING!!! I doubt this is the majority view in non-AGW circles either. (Maybe I’m just gifted at finding doomers.)
Per HUG’s point, oh yes there are definitely some global warming religionists out there. And warming doomers (the people who claim the sea level will rise 100+ feet in only a century). I’m sure there is a balanced take out there somewhere but it sure is hard to find.
“Per HUG’s point, oh yes there are definitely some global warming religionists out there”
Some are even flying around in private jets which always cracks me up.
Question: Are the folks at CBMW who put winsome and wise Owen Stachan at the “headship” of that organization suddenly wondering whether they’ve got the wrong man?
Well, it looks like we have the right blaming women for ills of society and the left embracing Islam as a peaceful religion. So where is a girl to go?
@ Rafiki:
Isn’t Louie Giglio one of Piper’s little darlings? The one who said he wants to make Jesus “famous” (I wasn’t aware Jesus had a problem with this)?
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/john-piper-interviews-louie-giglio-part-1
And appears to hang out with NAR types.
http://apprising.org/2013/01/08/louie-giglio-twists-ezekiel-37-at-passion-2013/
http://apprising.org/2013/01/02/louie-giglio-passion-2013-and-jesus-culture/
Note: don’t agree perfectly with everything in the above articles as Apprising Ministries can be a little over-the-top sometimes. The main point is the NAR connections which don’t look good.
Hester
I think Peterson started up his own branch of the Tea Party in L A so he brought an audience with him. And I’ve already said that Anon 1 ‘s take on it is nearer the mark than mine.
Phoenix
Glad you’re so easily pleased.
Sergius
Why? Owen is their man. Do you know something tha I don’t know? Well, yes, but I mean about Owen.
Richard wrote:
Richard,
I’d pay more than a few quid to see Cate Blanchett gussied up in her Elizabeth I finery once again. Just to see her give Pastor Jesse Peterson one withering glare.
Daisy wrote:
Robertson says that; I say Robertson’s pastor friend was being an asshole.
As a YouTube video linked from Stuff Fundies Like (which I can’t find now) put it:
“Jesus didn’t die
So you could be an asshole…”
Does “staying in shape” in this context include liposuction, full-bore facial plastic surgery, and 99ZZ boob jobs?
Somebody needs to check out Robertson for Alzheimer’s and/or dementia in the part of the brain dealing with inhibitions. I think his health is failing with age and he’s losing it in public more and more. However, he’s a CELEBRITY preacher-man, and nobody tells a CELEBRITY anything the CELEBRITY doesn’t want to hear if they want to keep their jobs.
Daisy wrote:
Until one holiday season, one of Tiger’s mistresses called him, Tiger’s wife answered the phone, and everything just blew sky-high. Wrecked his marriage, his life, his career, his celebrity, everything.
At least Tiger didn’t get violent towards his wife in the resulting fight (like a lot of these preachers’ Real Men would). His SUV crash in the driveway was an attempt to put some distance between him and his wife/in-laws until they cooled off.
One would think Hannity’s handlers would have vetted Peterson a little better in order to avoid embarrassing damage control.
Any woman who could make John Knox quake in his boots is tops in my book. :o) She even denied him permission to travel overland in England. That had to rub him the wrong way…That Monsterous Regiment of women with power!
numo wrote:
Repeat after me:
Just because you belong to a group or tribe that got stomped on in the past doesn’t mean you’re incapable of turning right around and stomping on another group/tribe. Sometimes it can make you MORE likely to become the oppressor, as you don’t want to go back to being oppressed and over-react.
The history of immigration to the USA is full of this pattern of racism/nativism against a newly-arrived immigrant wave until they get accepted as Americans and go all racist/nativist on the next wave getting off the boats. Factor in the first group of immigrants trying to prove they’re now REAL Americans (unlike this new group) and things can get ugly. And have gotten ugly.
And in the various fandoms I’ve been involved with (gamers, comix, Furry, Brony), often ethnics with said fannish interest are actively discouraged by their families and ethnic culture, sometimes to the point of discouragement by violence. A lot of ethnic cultures seem to place an extreme value on conformity to expected tribal-identity behavior.
dee wrote:
They say to “swallow the meat and spit out the bones.”
But what if it’s all bones and no meat?
Hester
I am glad that Giglio is now focusing on human trafficking. But, I read his comments that have drawn the ire of the gay community. If the quotes are accurate, it does seem as if he does not draw the line between homosexual feelings and the actual practice of homosexuality. As time goes on, I believe that Christians must differentiate carefully on this issue. I read a piece by Mohler today in which he does not clearly differentiate bewteen the two.
Only 37% of the American population now believes that homosexual behavior is a sin according to a new poll by Gallup. Therefore, we must do everything in our power to carefully communicate our differences. Now, I do not think for one minute that it makes a difference to activists but we must be sure we are accurate, and very loving, in what we say.
Hester wrote:
During the 1970s, the run-around-in-circles-screaming-DO-SOMETHING Big Fear (right up there with Nuclear War) was Global Cooling and The Coming Ice Age. I remember the “WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING! NOW!!!” TV specials about it, just as shrill and Utterly Certain as todays’ Global Warming Doomsday Specials. The one I remember ended with a large globe being covered in falling snow with the ominous “Voice-of-God” voice intoning “One spring, the winter snow will not melt. THAT IS HOW *IT* WILL BEGIN!!!!!!!”
The cause of this was two discoveries in climatology in the 1970s.
* First, paleo-climatologists found through Antarctic ice core and fossil tree-ring analysis that ice ages started much faster than previously thought, going from ice-free to full ice age in a matter of a couple centuries instead of the previously-thought several millenia.
* Second, this came right when the Earth’s climate was going through a short cooling trend.
* Put the two together, and the Activists and Media started running around in circles screaming, demanding WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!
It’s no fun being a Weirdness Magnet.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Somebody needs to check out Robertson for Alzheimer’s and/or dementia in the part of the brain dealing with inhibitions. I think his health is failing with age and he’s losing it in public more and more. However, he’s a CELEBRITY preacher-man, and nobody tells a CELEBRITY anything the CELEBRITY doesn’t want to hear if they want to keep their jobs.
Someone should also find out why Robertson (blood diamonds) wasn’t charged with complicity when his good bud Charles Taylor (African warlord) went on trial in the Hague for crimes against humanity.
I am truly amazed that women still attend churches where this misogynistic view point is spewed from the pulpit. What keeps women going back when they are placed in inferior shackles over and over again? What if all the women refused to attend church anymore. I wonder how long it would stay running with just the men in charge.
I remember sitting in a church that draws in thousands of young people from the Portland metro area each week and listening to the young preacher talk about why women cannot serve in leadership positions in the church. It’s because we’re weak, gullible and can’t make good decisions. As I looked around at all of the young women drinking this talk it, my heart sank and I was sad (and very pissed off!). I thought of all the women who have come before us and worked so hard for women’s equality in our country. And here our young women sit and soak in that all they’re good for is making babies and pleasing their husbands.
Just typing this out has me fired up! Will we ever see a time where women as viewed equally as men? Will we ever be seen as more than sex objects, or spoils of war, or as mere servants? We are flesh and bone and blood made in the image of God – all of us – male and female. When will this no longer be an “issue” in the church? When will male church leaders realize that the commandments can be summed up into this, “Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, body and strength and love your neighbor as yourself?”
OK, rant is done. Sorry to go off.
I really don’t like the term “a–hole”. A comment on Julie Anne’s blog is more to my taste: “Even manure can be used for fertilizer — YOU are totally without value.” It is why a far_ is worse than sh__; both stink, one can be used for fertilizer.
@ Sergius Martin-George:
Do you mean maybe they should have hired Peterson? Don’t forget that they needed the most “winsome-type” person they can find as well 🙂 Peterson didn’t seem terribly winsomish (new word alert) to me.
You got it, Bridget.
SMG
@ HUG:
It’s not even confined to GW doomsday specials anymore. They shoehorn it in at the end of every other program now, even if it has little or nothing to do with the subject. For instance, I remember watching a sunken cities/Atlantis show on the History Channel a few years back. It was interesting and pretty normal until the last thirty seconds, when they inserted an animation of Manhattan drowning under rising sea levels and the ominous Voice of God said something like “…and given global warming, who knows how long it will be before OUR cities are sunken too?”
The. Last. Thirty. Seconds.
@ Dee:
I do think the focus on human trafficking is needed, but the NAR is some bad bad juju. It’s basically the non-Calvinist version of Dominionism, with demons thrown in for good measure. HUG and Numo have mentioned it here before. Nobody should get within a hundred miles of it.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Agreed, but that doesn’t explain his all-out attack on women. (Or his extreme misogyny.)
Women aren’t exactly recent arrivals! o.O
@ Hester: totally agreed!
Dee, Giglio is bad news. The NAR is really bad news.
hmmmm…I also believe that “America as we know it is over” and at the brink of disaster. To the male readers…please forgive my emphasis, but to refute Pastor Peterson….some things for him to think about – let’s see…..all dicatotors/tyrants throughout history are MEN. I believe the MAN in the white house is taking us on a fiscal path of disaster. More MEN commit violent crime than women. If Pastor Peterson was in a dangerous area at night…is he afraid of women or of a gang of MEN or teens? Serial murderers are MALE. Domestic violence is typically a MAN abusing a woman. Most of our senators and congresspeople are MALE and are creating a socialist type of mentality in our country, creating an entitlement mentality. More MEN are incarcerated than women. Who do women need to be protected from? Who rapes? MEN!!! To the male readers of this blog, I am not trying to offend you. I am simply saying that the Pastor can look to his own sex for many of the problems in our country. PS. I was saved from sin by a MALE.
Hester
I am deeply opposed to Dominionism and keep meaning to do some posts on it. What is the relationship of Giglio to NAR? Oh yeah, and I think that demons with names in charge of nations would make a good horror series but has no place in Christian theology.Do you know any of the names of current “leaders” who buy into this stuff?
Pat Robertson has made a lot of dumb comments in recent years, but I must give him credit for standing up to the “Fort Lauderdale Five” back in 1975, during the heyday of the Shepherding Movement.
NAR for this dummy (at times) anyone? What does NAR stand for?
Bridget
Actually, I like to get you input into NAR-New Apostolic Reformation. It is a rather bizarre movement that is heavily tied into the dominionism stuff. They believe that God is restoring the offices of the apostle and priests. They believe that there are demons that one can know by name who rule the various countries of the world. It appears that Giglio has some ties to this crowd which really surprised me. You would think, after all this time, I couldn’t be startled. Well, I am. Did you ever hear of any of this stuff in your former church?
Believe it or not, apparently teaching algebra is pushing the liberal agenda…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
A friend of mine once wrote something like (this is a quote from memory, so probably not exact) “Mix up some dog crap in brownie batter, bake it up, then try to pick the dog crap out before you eat it. That’s like trying to sort out good doctrine from bad doctrine handed down from false teachers. It’s better to just avoid the dog crap brownies.”
Found the link! I didn’t get the quote exactly right, but I did get the gist of it. 😉
http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.ca/2011/02/fyi.html
@ Dee:
Giglio’s conference this year is featuring a band called Jesus Culture which hails from Bethel Church. Bethel is pastored by Bill Johnson, who is apparently considered an apostle by NAR giant C. Peter Wagner. Also coming is someone called Judah Smith who has apparently invited prosperity gospel types to preach at his church and whose parents served under Dick Iverson, founder of what C. Peter Wagner calls “one of the America’s foremost apostolic networks.” Lots of this also in my links in a previous comment.
http://apprising.org/2013/01/01/jesus-culture-and-judah-smith-to-join-piper-moore-chan-and-others-at-giglios-passion-2013/
http://www.donotbesurprised.com/2012/05/mark-driscoll-promoting-word-faith.html
(Interesting also that Driscoll is excited about Smith, even though Smith co-pastors his church with his wife. Wouldn’t this normally make Smith a sissified girly-man heretic?)
Once again, the usual disclaimer: I do not agree with all of the statements in Apprising Ministries’ articles. They are often quite anti-Catholic and violently anti-CCM.
Major names in the NAR include Lou Engle, C. Peter Wagner, Mike Bickle, and IHOP (International House of Prayer – don’t worry, the pancakes are still safe). Here’s a good summary page from Rachal Tabachnick at Talk2Action.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/1/20/131544/037
@ Fendrel:
“‘Distribute the wealth!” Bolling exclaimed, reading the worksheet. ‘Distribute the wealth with the lovely rich girl with a big ole bag of money, handing some money out.'”
Well that’s just stupid.
@ Dee
Ugh! NAR. Wikipedia has a page on this. I had to look it up after your explanation. This is what my former church believed. Doctrinally, they are Oneness Pentecostal. The founder considered himself an Apostle. I didn’t even know there was a whole movement behind this. We just accepted it as God’s revelation to our founder. (What a phony!)
Ok, I get it. I am familiar with IHOP. Some families I know lost some college aged kids to it back in early 2000’s. One family hired an “interventionist” and they went and brought her home. She basically sat catatonic in her room for several months after that and spent several years in therapy. She finally went back to college..
@ dee:
I never heard of NAR. The former church and group I was involved in believed that God was in the business of restoring all things, but they didn’t seem to have the idea that dominionists and NAR are promoting. They did believe in the five-fold ministries for today. But they didn’t seem to believe in naming names and organizing a group to police the five fold ministries. I do have to add that this was before the internet and “branding.” It’s quite possible that they would have ended up as we see many ministries today, except that one of the founders died in the late 90s.
I did go out to Google and found the site below that had a lot of information on NAR. I don’t endorse the site in any way. There is other information out there as well, including the Wikepedia article that states it is missing information.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/1/20/131544/037
Anon 1 wrote:
That’s straight out of the “Cult Deprogramming” horror stories you heard a lot during the Cult Cult Cult Moral Panic of the Seventies. This is beyond the level of the Hare Khrishnas or Moonies level — this is the sort of destructive aftereffects you associate with Rajneeshpuram, Bo-Peepers, or Jonestown.
P.S. Some 30 years ago I worked at the company HQ of the other IHOP (the more familiar one) and their management was nothing to brag about either.
Hester wrote:
Hester, Everybody:
How does that differ from the required Four Spiritual Laws/Altar Call Ending required for Christian fiction?
dee wrote:
As in Themselves?
“Demons one can know by name”? Like in the Summoning Magicks of John Dee, Aliester Crowley, and Jack Parsons?
I think Fendrel can back me up on this one, but these guys sound like poster boys for Carl Sagan’s book The Demon-Haunted World. WIth a good chance of growing into Witchfinders-General during the Thirty Years’ War. (I’ve occasionally-brushed against “Demons Under Every Bed” spiritual-warfare types. They’re not pretty.)
And this movement is “DEMONS Under Every Bed!!!” married to “Seize Power In The Name of God!!!”; I can’t imagine a more dangerous combination than Absolute Power, Utter Righteousness, and Demonic Conspiracy Theory.
Well, I visited Bethel Church which is the center for some of this stuff. I have a lot to learn. When there is all sorts of legal disclaimers in the first 5 minutes of reading their site, I know something very bizarre is up.
Also, I have been doing some reading of Giglio and laminem. Whoa…. something is very strange here. Dee is going to eat some dinner and calm herself down before reading more.
HUG
I heard that they think you are the guy in charge of the West Coast! You see where Dungeons and Dragons brought you?
@ dee:
You might want a glass of wine to go with that dinner and before you read any further 🙂
Fendrel
You do know that derivatives are the work of the devil. I will thnak you for not bringing that up here. 🙂
That Dick Iverson name keeps coming up. It sounds familiar to my way-back memory.
Mike Bickle of IHOP attended the church I first went to as a believer. He didn’t get to be senior pastor when there was a necessary change in leadership so he went off to KC to start his own . . . IHOP. I am thankful for that.
“P.S. Some 30 years ago I worked at the company HQ of the other IHOP (the more familiar one) and their management was nothing to brag about either.”
Hug, I never got the full picture but there was something about them expecting these students to pray over people on the phone for like 6-8 hours per day and then ask them for money or something. They lived in dorms or some sort of communal living and were around the same people all the time and discouraged from going out in the world without a fellow I_HOPer.. The only thing I can imagine is only a 19 year old with issues would agree to that lifestyle if they knew up front.
dee wrote:
It would probably be less job stress than what I have now…
@ dee: Dee, I’d be more than happy to email you some links to material… just say the word!
It also helps to read things that NAR & Dominionist types have written. You could stat with C. Peter Wagner and George Otis Jr. (the latter being a good buddy of the “pastor” at That Church).
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: IHOP relies on sleep deprivation and severe fasting to help keep its recurits in line.
And Mike Bickle is pretty crazy: http://www.pitch.com/plog/archives/2009/07/27/ihops-leader-envisions-100-foot-snakes-falling-to-earth-during-satans-war-with-michael-the-archangel
the whole thing comes from the so-called “Kansas City Prophets” of the 80s, including the Vineyard crew (John Wimber and others).
Other places where the NAR agenda has been very influential include the “Toronto Blessing” (“revival” – a very weird one – at Toronto Airport Fellowship in the 90s), and Lakeland, FL. Rick Joyner is yet another supposed “apostle” who has gotten a lot of credence with NAR folks – again, I think there is something *seriously* wrong with him.
Re. talk2action.org, Rachel Tabatchnik’s articles on the NAR/third Wave are *superb* and very comprehensive. she was interviewed on NPR (on “Fresh Air”) in Sept. 2011, too, so if you do a search on the NPR site, you should have no problem finding the audio.
Numo –
What is interesting is that I don’t find a site for “NAR,” just sites that have written about them. It is as if they are a stealth operation.
@ Anon 1: They are also supposed to be worshiping and praying 24/7. One variant of their program is called “Harp & Bowl.” (The allusion is to Revelation.)
There’s some material on the web written by at least one former member of IHOP who feels that she was in a cult. Google should get you there.
@ Bridget: Dee – stealth is the name of the game! Their strategy involves literally infiltrating churches.
I think you’ll find that they refer to themselves more as third Wave. They are being very, *very* low-key about “new apostolic reformation” these days, because it scares people (understandably!)
Someday I need to sit down and collate some of the links, etc. that I’ve got.
One thing that you should be aware of is that this is a global movement, and that some of its most enthusiastic proponents are active in Africa (Uganda especially) and also in various parts of Latin america.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hmmm….this is how I have explained it people from my former church who say they would leave (knowing fully the sexual predations of the pastor), but “the preaching is so good.”
Let’s say, for the sake of argument that 90% of what he preaches is pure, clear, clean water and 10% is poisonous. If you take a glass and fill it 90% with the purest water there is and then the other 10% with strychnine, there is no way to filter out the strychnine. Even good water filter won’t get it all. A glass of 90% pure water and 10% strychnine is still 100% deadly.
—–
As to the New Apostolic Reformation, when I was still in the former church, I circled around the edges of this. My mother was into this stuff; of course she was always blaming everything on demons, so… But it is a very abusive power structure. It’s may not be obvious at first glance (or wasn’t then before some of their more public fiascoes), but the more you get into it, the more authoritarian it gets. It is very hierarchical, although not gender=wise. They take the order of the listing of the 5 fold gift in Ephesians as indicating the order of importance. Thus, Apostles are the B-O-S-S. If your ministry/church is not under the authority of an Approved Apostle, it’s not operating lawfully. It’s ugly. If I see something with C Peter Wagner’s name on it, I know to avoid.
There was a period in my detox process where even hearing some of these name would cause fear. There is a website that is loosely affiliated with them called The Elijah List. I’ll let you google it because I really don’t even want to go there to get the url.
@ Dee–
Tons of links in this article about the NAR.
http://herescope.blogspot.com/2011/08/c-peter-wagner-spins-nar.html
@ Bridget: also… when I was a member of That Church, I heard some pretty crazy things from the pulpit – that were edited out of the sermon recordings, usually by the speaker requesting that recording equipment be turned off until they were done talking about X, or else by them throwing an article of clothing (like a tie) over the lapel mike for however long, or whatever…
You could go to That Church’s site and read and read and read and *not* find *anything* regarding the weird stuff. Not one single word.
Because it is meant to be secret. people who are into it view it as covert operations – literally. They are role-playing in a game where the stakes are cosmic.
there is also talk about Jesus, but in reality, his death on the cross seems to have accomplished very little. What matters to them is that *they* are supposedly chosen by god to chase demons out and “take territory for god.” (the last is a quote – it’s a common refrain.) Thus, they get to be heroes and heroines for God; they believe their lives have purpose and meaning via this so-called “strategic-level spiritual warfare.”
In their view, satan and demons have very great power… and God might or might not “win” without constant prayer and action against said demons.
I personally believe that this is another religion entirely, but the people involved don’t seem to understand that (yet).
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Not to harp on about climate change, but the 1970s ‘ice age’ scare was mostly driven by non-scientists. There were only a handful of scientific papers suggesting we were heading into an ice age, and the wider scientific community critiqued those papers. At least one was withdrawn/corrected by the authors.
@ numo~
“Rick Joyner is yet another supposed “apostle” who has gotten a lot of credence with NAR folks – again, I think there is something *seriously* wrong with him.”
Agreed–although you are being very polite, imo. Isn’t Joyner the one who “restored” back to ministry Todd “I’m gonna kick you in the stomach to cure your cancer” Bentley of the infamous Lakeland, FL supposed revival, after it was found out Todd was having an affair? And all that after they “comissioned” him with a super duper ceremony and everything! The ceremony was available on youtube.
Joyner at work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgdcdjtlGfo
@ Diane: to be honest, Rick Joyner’s theology scares me – and as bad as all the Todd B. stuff has been, it’s the *beliefs* that Joyner advocates that are – to me personally – the most disturbing thing about him.
Hester wrote:
That’s exactly what it is. In fact, the latest incarnation of it came largely from Fuller Seminary via C. Peter Wager and John Wimber. C. Peter Wagner was approached by Paul Cain, I think it was, and Cain somehow convinced him of this Charismatic thing.
As for the Dominionism, Rick Warren studied for his doctorate under C. Peter Wagner at Fuller and The Purpose Driven Church was basically his dissertation. Warren didn’t take up the Charismatic angle, but he did take up the top down Apostolic approach to church polity. (Actually I’m not sure which one thought of it first.) Wagner’s book Churchquake advocates a very similar approach as Warren’s to church government. The 2 books are remarkably similar in philosophy and, um,…purpose.
@ anonymous: One of the other primary “wings” of the movement is headed up by George Otis Jr., who was with YWAM for many years. His so-called “Transformations” claims (and videos)a re fraudulent.
YWAM itself is also highly questionable, and some bases and leaders are *very* into the whole third Wave?NAR/Seven Mountains deal.
Ultimately, from what I have encountered personally (and read), a lot of this goes back to the latter Rain movement in the US and Canada, from the 1940s onward. The Ft. lauderdale Five and the entire discipleship movement are full of not only their own controlling and cult-like ideas, but those of Latter Rain as well. And you can see a ton of Latter Rain influence in C. Peter Wagner’s literature, too.
We live near the church that started the Lakeland FL Outpouring. When we first moved here a couple of years ago we would occasionally attend. We enjoyed the praise and worship but I always thought there was something weird going on there. Finally I told my husband I would never go back again. My husband really doesn’t undertand that but so far he hasn’t tried to insist we go back. My spidey sense kept going off. Everything that has come up on this post about the NAR was in full display there.
Rachel Tabachnick’s comprehensive link list (etc.) on the NAR:
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/1/20/131544/037
P.s.: while the political bent of talk2action might offend some, please do read what Rachel has written. It is superb. Her tireless investigative reporting on the NAR helped me to put a lot of things re. my own time in abusive churches into place (especially my time at That Church, aka Christ our Shepherd Church in Washington, D.c., which actively – though covertly – is involved with many NAR leaders, both in the US and abroad).
Mike Bickle, IHOP and so-called “bridal mysticism”
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2012/11/21/94137/183
there are other articles out there, on other sites. (Google is our friend!)
apologies for the deluge of replies; as an escapee from a church that was gung-ho on chasing demons out of Washington, D.C., I am pretty passionate about this topic! (and others related to it.)
Hmmm . . .
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2013/01/11/amended-complaint-filed-today-in-lawsuit-against-sgm-churches/
Numo –
Hester and I linked to those sites above.
@ numo~
“…it’s the *beliefs* that Joyner advocates that are – to me personally – the most disturbing thing about him.”
Like killing those who do not agree with him? The blues versus the greys?
@ Bridget: Yes, i did see that… but I decided to do it again mainly because many readers don’t seem to look at earlier comments.
I don’t mean to be obnoxious; I do get carried away sometimes when the NAR comes up, if only because I was caught in its web for a few years and am grateful to be out!!!
numo wrote:
I’ve heard that too. I forget the name of the guy now, but there was someone among the Assemblies of God churches back then that started all the stuff about the manifest sons of God, or something like that, from whom Paul Cain descended (spiritually speaking). I got a DVD series on the NAR from Apologetics Coordination Team led by Sandy Simpson. They did a very thorough job exposing it. They didn’t know about Warren studying under Wagner at the time, or didn’t have proof of it, though he gets a dishonorable mention in the last disc. And they did a bit on YWAM and the Transitions video too.
They didn’t get into the Ft. Lauderdale Five. I’d be interested to know their connection to the NAR. Certainly the shepherding movement would fit right in to it.
@ Diane: Yep. I think he’s certifiable, but he has tremendous influence, as do some of the people who’ve been associated with him for a long time. (Don Potter, for example.)
And Paul Cain (IHOP) said Willian Branham was the greatest prophet ever to live. William Branham…latter rain.
Once you start reading about the roots… it is alost never-ending reading.
http://www.letusreason.org/latrain5.htm
The first few times I went to Ignited in Lakeland they were heavily into the apostles and prophets and didn’t talk about demons. More recently they have had Bob Larson there a couple of times and they were showing his videos at the Thursday night Bible study on getting rid of strongholds in your life. Larson seems to see demons under every chair, bed and a large percent of Christians are supposedly demon possessed. I understand he is coming back in March.
@ Numo:
“the whole thing comes from the so-called “Kansas City Prophets” of the 80s, including the Vineyard crew”
Is there something in the water in east Kansas? Fred Phelps is out that direction too.
“One thing that you should be aware of is that this is a global movement, and that some of its most enthusiastic proponents are active in Africa (Uganda especially) and also in various parts of Latin america.”
This is why it worries me so much that everybody and their dog is going to Uganda/Rwanda. Clearly there are lots of needy people there, but there’s so much NAR in the Christian/missions community that I wonder if it’s possible to escape unscathed. Rick Warren has his fingers in that pie too (see anonymous’ comment about Warren studying under C. Peter Wagner).
@ Diane: “…almost never-ending>”
yep, I’m afraid so. My epiphany came in 2008, when – due to extensive reporting on Sarah Palin’s involvement with NAR and dominionist prayer groups/churches – I was *finally* able to start putting the various pieces of experiences/things I heard in various churches over a 30-year period into place.
The result is pretty scary!
fwiw… I encountered Latter Rain influence in local charismatic anabaptist churches in PA back in the early-mid 1970s! These folks also loved the Ft. Lauderdale Five.
while I am no fan of conspiracy theories, there *is* a conspiracy-like aspect to this stuff. And I have NO doubt whatsoever that some people would willingly lie, cheat, steal and do who knows what-all else to further the goals of this movement.
@ anonymous:
“As for the Dominionism, Rick Warren studied for his doctorate under C. Peter Wagner at Fuller and The Purpose Driven Church was basically his dissertation.”
Yet another reason I’m very suspicious of Rick Warren.
Also:
1. Mark Driscoll slobbers with enthusiasm at Rick Warren’s feet.
2. Mark Driscoll thinks Judah Smith (whose parents served under Dick Iverson) is cool.
3. Both Smith and Warren were involved with/studied under bigwigs in the NAR.
4. Mark Driscoll also reportedly performs/has performed exorcisms.
4. So…is Mark Driscoll drifting toward the NAR?
@ Hester: Oh, it’s political.
That Church has brought one of the chief NAR people from Uganda to speak/teach privately, and (iirc) more than once.
If you read Jeff Sharlet’s article (included in his book C Street) on The Family’sd involvement in Uganda and *then* add in the incredible coverage that Box Turtle bulletin has been doing re. americans in Uganda and persecution of gay people there (including the many attempts to make homosexuality a capital crime, which might still happen), a very horrifying picture will come into ultra-sharp focus.
@ numo:
Ah! You can give a first hand account!
The DVD series I got showed a lot of footage of a conference held at Ted Haggard’s church. Really weird and very sad. They were doing this seminar on how to prophesy. Apparently it’s something you can get good at by practicing! They also showed footage of Rodney Howard Brown’s “Holy Ghost” bar tending somewhere with everyone “getting drunk” with some spirit or other he was calling the Holy Spirit, but clearly was not. Wagner gave some of the history of how he got involved. Bickle was there, and Chuck Pierce. And Jack Deere. And a few women, one of whom was a character for sure. And Dutch Sheets (who was waaaayyyyy over dressed). And a few others I can’t recall the names of. They also had footage of Benny Hinn, and Rick Joyner. All the usual suspects, really.
@ Diane:
“And Paul Cain (IHOP) said Willian Branham was the greatest prophet ever to live.”
Isn’t William Branham that guy with the serpent seed or something? Complete nutjob based on what I’ve read. Also his theology has produced some pretty horrific patriarchy stories.
@ Hester: I heard a LOT about uganda back in the early part of the last decade. Everyone was going there… including key people at That church.
@ Numo:
Which church and which family? We’ve talked about so many.
I also have personal reasons to be suspicious of Christian involvement in Uganda. Remember my ex-pastor (PCA) who let a Reconstructionist preach from the pulpit (which led to me immediately leaving that church)? (Said Reconstructionist had published papers in which he basically said that not tithing was evidence of damnation.) This Reconstructionist has ministry ties in Uganda and the PCA pastor (who actually was let go by that church) is taking trips to Uganda (with $$$ he got…somewhere; judging from his FB he has no apparent source of income). Totally into the “America needs revival before we go over the brink” narrative and the “work of God in Uganda” bit. Also the same guy who loved David Platt (see why I don’t associate Platt with positive stuff?). So I know for a fact there is at least one Reconstructionist on the ground in Uganda, along with all the non-Calvinist Dominionists (NAR).
Maybe I’m too cynical…but I just can’t shake the feeling that the Ugandan people are being used as pawns in American Christians’ game(s). Sad.
@ Hester:
I don’t know about the NAR and Driscoll. I’ve heard from Sarah Leslie, who researches and writes about all this stuff, that Driscoll and Warren were both involved with the Leadership Network. I’m not sure exactly what that group is, or what it promotes, but I recall that video Driscoll did at Arlington where he stood on the soldiers’ graves and talked about guys having sex with their wives every day, and how reminiscent of Warren some of his views were. I’d say they got the same influence somewhere along the line. And Driscoll’s church is a top down, authoritarian, pastor in charge, my way or the highway situation too.
I came into the whole thing during Purpose Driven, from which I learned about the NAR. Then, just when I thought it couldn’t get any worse along comes the New Calvinism, which seems an awful lot like Purpose Driven for Calvinists to me. And now we have NCs like Piper joining with Warren, and Driscoll plugging Warren….
Hester wrote:
That was him! Branham!
Searching wrote:
*******
I tend to think everyone’s got the mix somewhat wrong. I mean, who’s got it all right? (reminds me of Steve Martin in Parenthood, fantasizing about his son’s future college graduation speech: “But there was one person who got me through it. He did everything right. And thanks to him today, well I’m the happiest, most confident and most well adjusted person in this world. Dad, I love you. You’re the greatest.”
Different camps emphasize different things, sometimes in tension with other camps. For everything a given camp gets wrong, I think they do get at least some things right. Even quite a few things.
Clearly some camps result in more collaterial human damage. Perhaps we could say the things they got wrong were especially harmful. But what they got right, even though overshadowed by the truly awful, was still right and good. Which in no way cancells the egriegiousness and their responsibility for it.
Guess I can self-disclose & say my background is in pentecostal / charismatic & YWAM. I’ve experienced one aspect where that camp went wrong (& was burnt to a crip). But if I’m going to be honest and truthful, they do get a lot of things right. And produce good things. (very hard for me to admit, while I refrain from bullets to spit [hey, verse!] — but it is true).
Perhaps we can know where we stand on what we feel is bad / harmful. And take action as may be needed. But at the sametime stay calm and level-headed enough to acknowledge the good.
Just seems fair & honest.
@ Dee:
You sure are getting a lot thrown at you tonight. Maybe you’d better make that a bottle of wine with your dinner, instead of a glass? Or on the other hand there’s an excellent CT-made chocolate stout I can recommend…’cause after all, the only thing that can console us womenfolk when we’re confronted with Important Issues is chocolate. ; )
And just remember…know your limits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w
Better summation: all churches serve up dog crap brownies.
In fact, my First Elastigirly Church with exactly 1 member also serves up tainted brownies.
@ Hester: It’s not *a* family, it’s THE Family, also known as The Fellowship.
See Jeff Sharlet’s book on them – he actually lived at their men’s training center for a while.
btw, they’re based in D.C. I have met/briefly been acquainted with a few of them.
They are frightening, imo.
@ elastigirl: I agree that *some* of what YWAM does is right.
but the more you look into the whole “moral government” theology thing + their fixation on demons + abusive practices at some of their bases, the worse it looks…
My disclosure: the guy who runs That church is a YWAmer from way, way back (1970s) and has been actively involved in the org. in the UK, where he grew up, the US, and in many other countries in teaching DTS. he met George Otis Jr. (Sentinel Group and “Transformations”) via YWAM and got to be good buddies with him.
which produced nothing good, I’m afraid. Been there, done that – got very burned.
That Church is actually a magnet for YWAMers, past and present.
The fact that it’s located in D.c. has a lot to do with that. And YWAM has close ties with The Family, which is yet another problem. (A big one, I think.)
@ elastigirl: Same here.
“Isn’t William Branham that guy with the serpent seed or something?”
Yes, Hester, he taught/believed it but did not come up with the idea.
@ anonymous: Connection between Ft. Lauderdale guys, Latter Rain, et. al.: Ern Baxter, who is one of the later members of the Five.
@ anonymous: Oh my – YWAM’s endorsement of Benny Hinn is one of THE biggest jokes (a very sad one, though) ever!
I think I should get copies of the DVDs you mentioned, but I’m not sure if I could bring myself to watch them. Too triggering.
Wisdomchaser
He even claims that demons write him messages on his steamed mirror in the bathroom and thay he has been bittne by a demon as well.
Wisdomchaser wrote:
I used to watch Larson on TV. Just thinking about it creeps me out a little still. He had me half believing I was possessed….
Hester wrote:
THAT is a scary thought…..
@ Wisdomchaser:
I looked at the website for Ignited Church and found that they are an Assemblies of God church which makes my heart sink. My family has been a part of the AofG since the very beginning of the denomination. I’ve gotta be honest, when I see an “Inner Healing and Deliverance Ministry” staff member listed on the website, warning bells tend to go off. Out of curiosity, is ignited affiliated with Southeastern University in any way? I know that it is an AofG university but I don’t know how involved it is with local churches. I have chosen not to affiliate myself with the AofG church for many many reasons but I still hate to see these trends arising.
@ dee: What???!!!
Who are you referring to, Dee?
Numo
I have had a chuckle or two in my life by following Neil Anderson. I read his book, Bondage Breakers. He also believes, I think in succubus and incubus which are demons who have sex with humans. I have long thought that he and Driscoll could make one heckuva pair.
@ dee: Oh man, yes – Neil Anderson! he really is off the deep end, like many of these folks.
Numo
Forgive me for not mentioning Anderson. He is a real strange dude and is followed by many evangelicals. It is hitting the fan over at SGM and I am distracted.
@ dee: No worries. am on tenterhooks myself re. the amended lawsuit…
Numo
Seriously-can you see Driscoll and him getting together? Can you imagine Driscoll’s visions???!!
Numo –
Dee was referring to this:
@ Wisdomchaser:
@ dee: I don’t even want to consider it for a nanosecond!!!
@ Bridget: thanks! Got it now. (I think!)
Numo
Major sicko stuff. I would love to bump into the pastor that accused Deb and me of character assassination when we begged him to talk to his good buddy, CJ. He runs a mega church in these parts. I wonder if he is ashamed, yet…
Mandy wrote:
Mandy, me too. Grew up AofG, 3rd+ generation with AofG pastors/ministers on both sides of the family. And I haven’t been involved with them for a long time, too many triggers, but it saddens me to see them going this direction, too. But it doesn’t surprise me. Even as a kid in the 60s and 70s, the whole ‘demons under every chair’ thing would cycle through.
Numo
Oh yeah-and my former pastor who was upset that I was not thrilled with his friend, CJ. Well, needless to say, he can’t judge his elders and he can’t judge his friends.
Numo
Anderson makes me laugh. His books are a parody for me. I got someone upset at my last church when I burst out laughing when she referenced Anderson as an expert.
@ dee: LOLZ (literally) 😀
I wish I ‘d been there!
Numo
We hope to meet with some folks in Virgina at the end of the month. We plan to tell the stories in depth.
@ dee: oooh – sounds juicy!!!
Fendrel wrote:
Some regard Gauss as the greatest mathematician to have ever lived. He is purported to have said this: “…Mathematics is the queen of the sciences…”
To which I would add: She toes no line but her own and is beholden to none.
So, back in the 1990s I finished up my Education degree and went to teaching in B.C. The family I lived with were in a large Vineyard. That Vineyard, which had started out Baptist, but had a Charismatic revival and been subsequently booted out of that particular Baptist organization, became Vineyard – not because they left, but because the Vineyard was the only denomination that would take them.
The church was Canadian Vineyard affiliated, but held many conferences with the Kansas City Prophet Group. I attended the church for one year, so I am no expert.
I need to clarify, though, I really liked my time there. It, that church, was in no way cultic or controlling. Only about half the congregation would attend a conference at their church, even when the speakers were really hyped. The worship was amazing – David Ruis, Andrew Smith. We had delirious? do worship for our youth conference, before they were a big name in North America – back in the days before iphones and instant music sharing, and Christian music spread more slowly – as it got NO airplay in Canada (we have strict broadcasting laws and religious stations are only permitted if strictly interfaith, so, you know, your station is Muslim, Catholic, Wiccan, Evangelical, Tibetan Buddhist and Hare Krishna all in agreement, lets just say that doesn’t really work out so well, so no Christian music got airplay, thus, back then, a slow spread of Christian music).
The pastor, as I said, had started out Baptist, and at quite a young age. His wife looked like Grace Driscoll, and they had 5 boys, but the difference was, she was a major leader in the church. She preached, and prayed and prophesied and went all over the place speaking, so the whole submission thing was not an issue at that church. Many of the women were major players in that church. But, as the youth pastor pointed out, the church had no women pastors on staff, just in voluntary, lay-persons roles. The youth pastor and his wife were very grounded and arrived after I did, but he was a wise man and pointed out a lot of things that he thought were slightly off about the church – none were cultish, he just rejected the idea that we could pray away every illness and disability and spoke out against the idea of insta-forgiveness – he always said “forgiveness doesn’t mean excusing one’s sins.”
Between him and the lovely family I lived with, I had a very healthy view of the church as great, wonderful, but with blemishes. Although none of the young adults at our church displayed over devotion to the church or being lead around by any leaders at all.
That being said, it was the outside influences on the church that raised a few eye-brows. First, Mike Bickel was a big name in my circle and in the home-group I was in Paul Cain was revered. Now, waaay back then, the only thing I used the internet for was e-mail. I wouldn’t have known how to google and track down info on Paul Cain, Mick Bickel or Lou Engel. All I had was word-of-mouth commendations and the one time they spoke at a conference to make a decision about them. Mike Bickel never came to our church the year I attended, so I can’t say much about him or what was going on in Kansas city, although many people drove down there to go to conferences, no one I know stayed down there, nor stayed in dorms when they went there.
Lou Engal came for one conference, and a seminary friend of mine (visiting) pointed out he was playing fast and loose with scripture. I wasn’t overly impressed, he seemed to be one of those guys who had ADHD as a kid – entertaining but jumpy, and over-the-top story telling. He named one of his daughters “Glory”, thats all I remember of his long, excited talk.
Paul Cain, now here is the thing. IF you were in Charismatic circles back in the day, Paul’s name came up. Apparently he was massively prophetic and extreamly accurate. He freaked out major Christian leaders – being able to see them doing certain sins – if they were sexual, that was never said, it was mostly lying or sneaking. It was no “Driscoll Vision”, more, I saw you crying out to God, lying to your wife, etc. But, I suppose I just never “read between the lines” so maybe he was implying he could see their sexual sins, but that was never brought up nor the impression I or anyone else got. He shook people up, for sure, but here is why I say “apparently”.
So this great prophet was coming to our church, people had driven for 8 – 10 hours for the conference, all over the Pacific NW, Western Canada and flown in from England. Then John Wimber (founder of the Vineyard) died. I believe Kansas City was still a Vineyard, but I may be wrong by a few years, the went independent at some point – news was never quick back then. This delayed Cain and tied up Bickel. Paul C. did eventually fly in the next night, so some British guy preached the first night. Again, seminary student came down, and he and seminary buddy muttered about the “bad hermeneutics” or something – I was so oblivious back then – when said British preacher talked. I never heard of that preacher, a fill-in I guess.
Finally, it was Paul. We had waited for this, and were anticipating “great things” that night. Paul was not exactly how I had pictured him from a book that mentioned his ministry quite a bit. I don’t know really, just a sort of flash of this suit doesn’t match this ministry sort of jolt. Of course I chastised myself for being so shallow about his black suit vs. what was I expecting, a grey? blue? I don’t know. But it sort of ties in. For a prophet from so humble a beginning, and a preacher who said he had been humbled by God enough to accept donations from others for his clothing, it seemed more flashy or debonaire? than I had anticipated.
He got nothing that night, no prophecy, nothing, so he gave a weak little sermon – speaking was obviously not a strong suit for him. I really didn’t want to think badly of him, and I guess it is great he was honest and didn’t try to fake a prophecy, but one thing rankled me. We had a “healing school” at our church for people form very broken homes. I know little about who ran it and what type of counselling they did (I’m not sure now I want to know), but I did know one guy, who was coming from an extremely abusive home life, father was a monster as far as I’m concerned, and he was also trying to leave a homosexual lifestyle. Now, I really don’t know any details of this – none of my beeswax, was my view – but I don’t think he was coerced to want to get rid of his homosexuality, I think he came to the school because he wanted to be there. But I really didn’t ask questions, I felt it was all really personal, and my own job was just to be his friend. I was, sort of, but he was really sexist too, so we sort of argued a lot – I am a pretty “women are equals and I will let you know if you step out of line on it” type of person – so, we were friends, but I not super close. Anyways, back to Paul Cain. So he gives his rambling, sort of boring sermon, and I am half asleep when he says something about all the gays in San Francisco can be wiped out like Sodom and Gomorrah. I jumped. This guy who was trying to leave homosexuality was there that night (I wasn’t sitting with him) and Paul said this. I was upset, and annoyed.
Oh, I also worked with the youth, so I was helping with the goodie table and sitting directly down the end of the centre aisle. I glared at this Paul guy, I mean really glared at this beloved prophet. He looked right at me and sort of began to stammer. Some wonder I was thinking sarcastically, but I, stupidly ducked down because I was thinking he might be able to see all my snarky thoughts about people and start calling them out. If that was now and that happened…. here is why this is so upsetting.
I leave that church, go to India/Nepal for a year, come back to Canada and teach in another city. I hear nothing about Kansas city again, the Vineyard in my new town is run by a more Pentecostal Old Time pastor and he isn’t into that group, church blogs aren’t common and I still don’t have the internet, so years go by. I wonder about Cain and the others, but know nothing.
Now, a few years ago, a bunch of women were on a night out, we were all driving to some movie or dinner and I talk to a woman who was in the Vineyard. We get talking and somehow Paul Cain comes up. Oh, she says, he fell out of favour, I dig, so she says, well he was dismissed from the Kansas city Prophets due to alcoholism and a gay relationship. I was like, What?!? Here is a guy who told everyone he was Driving one night when God (as Jesus) was suddenly in the car with him and told him not to marry, and then poof, disappeared. From that day forward, according to him, he had no desire to marry. Good thing he wasn’t Canadian, otherwise he may have had a desire to marry – a man. I mean, this is the guy who was making fun of San Fran and wishing Sodom and Gomorrah on it, and, well, hiding things there Paul? I have googled it all since, apparently his lover confessed too, so it wasn’t false accusations. Paul insists it was.
Yes, the fringy groups that came into that church seemed sort of like the ADHD as grown-ups without meds club (sorry to insult, I teach kids with ADHD and know it is tough, but these guys were parents acting like grade 6/7s and playing fast and loose with the scriptures. They never had a huge influence though, most of the youth liked the worship times better, dancing around was way more fun than sitting and listening. Come to think of it, a lot of the youth were probably ADHD too, so they needed the outlet and most wandered out during sermons – there was a skating ramp in the back, and the youth room was always open, so few sat though much of anything.
Those of us who listened, were fine with Sunday mornings, so a few guys talking about praying demonic forces down over their mid-west cities were fringe. Our pastor was good, loving and had a missionary heart, he was raising money for the poor and I eventually went to one of the churches he sponsored in Bhutan/Nepal. He was never as dominionist as the travelling preachers were, more concrete – due to his mennonite background I think. Most of the church was, OK what can we do practically, even if someone was going on about demonic oppression, it wasn’t his focus. I think overall, it was a great church for me, with healthy leadership. When I compare it to what I am seeing now – women sitting their drinking up pastors telling them they are too weak to make personal decisions without male oversight – without batting an eye or being belittled by the pastors, or having to confess personal sin as an intiation rite, I am thankful I was never young and in a church like that.
So, overall, I don’t have a negative experience with the Prophetic movements of the 90s, but I did learn human heroes will disappoint and only Jesus is worth wasting your life on, no school or movement is worth giving your identity to.
@ Val: You’re fortunate to have gotten through that without any serious problem, mo…
Oh, I’m getting ‘deja vu’ (aka triggering) with a lot of what has been shared about ‘spiritual trends’ (and also what has remained).
When the ‘holy laughter’ hit town there was also a ‘dingo’ demon manifestation (dingo=wild Australian dog) which I witnessed – now that’s a unique antipodean patriotic demon don’t you think !
Val speaking about ‘ADHD pastors’ – I always thought the shambolic ‘holy laughter’ that began less than 5 minutes after the pastor began speaking was a perfect opportunity for those who hadn’t prepared a sermon (sorry to those who passionately defend ‘holy laughter’ but it never sat well with me).
@ Haitch: That “dingo” bit sounds very much like some of the supposed “manifestations” in Toronto. 🙁
Y’know, I can only talk about this stuff now because it’s been 10 years since I was around any of it.
It’s such a shame. Pentecostalism has some aspects that could really add to the Christian experience. But their history is so rife with scandal and hypocrisy that it often resembles a parody of Christianity. Roger Olson, who was raised Pentecostal, wrote an enlightening article on its “darker side,” and why he is now a Baptist.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3338
What a shame, just when Mahaney was so close to getting in the door of the SBTS. At least his son and sons-inlaw are there. This would be a good time for His Emissary to thank CJ for all the inroads that have been made. Ignatius Loyola would be proud!
“Here you have one man telling women that Jesus ‘commands’ them to give their husbands oral sex, then on the other hand you have a man deciding that women are evil for giving men oral sex.
No matter what, women are wrong and sinful for not fitting into the boxes these men have personally designed and then declared, “Thus saith the Lord.” …That is why Jesus is our Rock to stand on, no capricious and self-serving men.” – Mara
And it never stops. This week, another blog pointed out that, on some “modesty” blog, the same patriarchal guy was complaining:
a) How many women wear too tight clothing.
AND b) How bad women look if they wear too baggy clothing, like the one in tracksuit pants he saw in the doctor’s office.
And the two most critical commenters on my Biblical Personhood blog was one who said
a) that he never wants fellowship with me, as I see nothing wrong with teaching or edifying men on my blog. AND
b) one that said it is not virtuous of me to edify only women with my words, as he believes I am doing.
“It’s such a shame. Pentecostalism has some aspects that could really add to the Christian experience. But their history is so rife with scandal and hypocrisy that it often resembles a parody of Christianity.” – BeenThereDoneThat
I agree. I want to be a pentacostal for the reason that they emphasize the work of the Spirit and the power of God. But in practice, in my visits to pentacostal churches, I found so much reason for caution that I prefer to be a member elsewhere.
Rafiki
Thank you for your words of care and concern, I’m touched and appreciative.
Cheers
@numo – same, and I wasn’t a participant, but an observer. Also I think it’s still around, it hasn’t wholly departed…
Some damaging spiritual warfare elements (to me) began to be promulgated by a Uniting Church I once attended also, which usually isn’t known for having a pentecostal flavour.
oh, and I so don’t want to stir the global warming debate pot, but for those interested, Prof Tom Griffiths spoke at TedX, Sydney on ice cores as sacred scrolls – and ‘hundreds of thousands of years of climate history’. It’s about 17 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLF7W60RvFE
In addition to loving antarctica stuff, he’s also a bushfire expert. I believe another wildfire expert on your side of the pond is Prof Stephen Pyne of Arizona State Uni.
numo wrote:
They would definitely be triggering. No doubt about that.
VAL
We should collect stories like yours to preserve stories for history. Paul was not the only one from that era who had gay relationships yet preached chastiy.. Julia Duin wrote a fascinating book, Days of Fire and Glory http://www.amazon.com/Days-Fire-Glory-Charismatic-Community/dp/0979027977/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358000638&sr=1-3&keywords=julia+duin
Haitch
Don’t worry about “holy laughter.” When I read soem of the stuff going on in today’s churches, you would think the Spirit had fallen on me if you heard the peals of laughter coming from my house.
@ Evie:
Evie –
Mahaney’s son is attending SBTS?
Bridget
I heard he is at the undergraduate school but I may be mistaken. If he is, he will be well watched out for by the powers that be.
@ dee:
It’s just not a comforting thought considering how SBTS seems to send out young men to pastor churches. I can only hope that he falls far from the tree. It’s not looking too good if he might get special treatment as well (just like dad).
@ Haitch:
You mean the Pastor’s got holy laughter?!? Wow, I never was at a church where the pastors stopped preaching due to a manifestation. Yikes, I likely would have gotten up and found someone to go for coffee with.
@ numo:
Well, the whole church was lucky, most of my friends left to go do other things, many moved, a group went off to the Mennonite church in town, I certainly never saw the insane devotion to leaders that I see in TGC.
Val
I would have laughed!
@ dee: Maybe… that “holy laughter” thing is *very* creepy.
@ dee: And (I think) a kind of mass hysteria.
@ Jeannette Altes:
My story is similar. My family goes back to the time when the group was known as the “Shouting Methodists” who then broke off into the first “assemblies”. There are so many stories in my family about the AofG that go back well over a hundred years. My mom was personally very hurt by the demon hunting of the 60’s and 70’s. A young relative “spoke in tongues” for the first time at summer camp this past June. Maybe thats why I never fit in with the Missionettes – little miss sassy mouth wanted nothing to do with that stuff. 🙂
Wisdomchaser wrote:
BOB LARSON? I first heard of Bob Larson in KOOKS Magazine, in an article about the “Rock and Roll Is SAY-TANN-IC” witch hunts and their prominent Witchfinders-General. I think Larson was described as Jack Chick’s hatchetman when it comes to rock music.
Diane wrote:
For those who have no idea what “Serpent Seed” means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_seed
Basically, it’s that Eve’s original sin was to do the Big F-bomb with the Serpent, siring a “Serpent Seed” race in parallel with humanity — literally Satan’s Spawn. Kind of like Lillith in reverse. Or something you get when Art Bell opens up the phone lines around 3 Ayem.
@ Mandy:
Wow, no that you mention it, I remember reading some old family letters my grandma had me transcribe for her and they talked about the family being part of what became known later as the ‘shouting Methodists’ way back in the 1860s or so….
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
So sort of like the alien lizard people conspiracy, or the Silurians from Doctor Who but less awesome?
@Val
From memory yes, (talking late 90’s here) and in two different churches in two different cities. I didn’t stick around to hear it all through, I’d seen enough (note to self, if atheist unexposed-to-church-boyfriend insists on attending a service make sure it’s not a frooty one)
Pam wrote:
Come to think of it, it IS the Evil Reptoid Conspiracy with a Christianese twist. William Branham and David Icke — twins separated at birth?
And another justification for White Supremacy (Two-Seedline Christian Identity sub-type), defining the “mud races” as the Serpent Seeds and the White Race as the only descendants of Adam.