"Do we have problems? Yes we do. But listen. Problems we are facing, confronting, experiencing – these things do not define us, and they do not define our churches. SG is a gospel preaching movement. And by God’s grace SG will continue to be a gospel preaching movement. One thing I would like to say and stress. We must not let our critics define us, or redefine us."
C.J. Mahaney's Remarks at the 2011 SGM Pastors Conference
“Shun, as you would the plague, a cleric who from being poor has become
wealthy, or who, from being nobody has become a celebrity.”
Jerome
What a difference a year can make… Remember the events leading up to last year's SGM Pastors Conference? In July 2011 C.J. Mahaney stepped down as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries, and a preliminary panel was quickly appointed by the SGM Board to determine whether C.J. Mahaney was 'fit for ministry'. On August 2, 2011, this panel (comprised of Kevin DeYoung, Ray Ortlund, and Kevin Trueman) released its report confirming that Mahaney was indeed fit for ministry.
A mere eight days later, Ortlund spoke at SGM's Worship God conference held in Gaithersburg, while the other two – Trueman and DeYoung – addressed the 2012 Together for the Gospel conference attendees, rubbing elbows with Mahaney and the other speakers. (click on "speaker" to see all the names). From all outward appearances, these 'impartial' individuals on the preliminary panel have a cozy relationship with C.J. Mahaney. Who do they think they're kidding?
Mahaney was then reinstated as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries in January 2012.
SGM hired the Ambassadors of Reconciliation to assess the situation, and their report was released just prior to the 2012 Together for the Gospel conference. We weighed in with a post entitled: AoR Report Releaased – Just How Unhealthy is SGM?
A week after T4G ended, SGM announced it was moving to Kentucky. Here is how it was reported on the Christianity Today website:
"Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), which has weathered controversy over its leadership and discipline practices, will relocate its offices and pastor-training program to Louisville, Kentucky.
Currently based in Gaithersburg, Maryland, SGM cited the economy as the main factor in its decision. It also hopes to expand its Pastors College and collaborate with Louisville-based Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS)."
Although SGM was concerned enough about economic factors to relocate its headquarters to a less expensive area, it appears SGM leaders are sparing no expense when it comes to the Pastors Conference, which begins tomorrow. Let me rephrase that – SGMers are sparing no expense in putting up their leaders (and their wives) at the luxurious Rosen Shingle Creek resort (*).
For those not familiar with this Orlando resort, it is POSH, POSH, POSH! Note to Carolyn – the Creekside Citrus and Cedar Body Revitalizer is to die for! There is little doubt that she and the SGM leaders' wives will be relaxing at the spa while their husbands hit the links. Is this how SGM hopes to keep its "family of churches" from abandoning the ship amid rough seas?
* For SGMers who are struggling to tithe, does it give you joy to learn how your leaders are treating your hard-earned, sacrificial contributions? Do you wonder whether you are footing the travel expenses of pastors' wives, for example? After all, this conference is for "pastors and their wives", according to the conference description.
Perhaps you'll be relieved to know that the theme for this year's conference is “Grace, from First to Last.” According to the conference website,
"The sessions will each focus on grace and how it relates to a specific area of pastoral ministry or the Christian life.
General session topics will include:
Grace and Our Past
Grace and Forgiveness
Grace and Perfectionism
Grace and Weakness
Grace and Leadership
Grace and Our MissionBreakout session topics will include:
Godly Speech: The Power of the Words We Speak, Write and Read
What Polity Can, Can't and Shouldn't Do For Us
The Contented Pastor: From Restlessness to Rest in Jesus
Evaluating Pastors: Common Mistakes, What We've Learned, and What Scripture Calls Us To
Leading through Change: How to Address Sin, Mistakes and Growth in the Church
Union with Christ and Everyday Pastoring: Reinforcing an Important Doctrine
Effective Elderships: Fostering Clear Roles, Healthy Function, and Strong Leadership
What’s Our Role? Elders and the Global Mission
Discerning Holiness: Legalism, License and the Principle/Practice Distinction
Loving and Leading Those Who Criticize
Parenting and the Grace of God: Has Our Understanding Changed?Ligon Duncan will be out guest speaker, joining C.J. Mahaney, Jeff Purswell, Dave Harvey, Ian McConnell and Mickey Connolly. We're also grateful that Nancy Guthrie will be with us for two special women's breakout sessions."
You remember Ligon Duncan, don't you? He's one of the Fab Four of T4G fame, and he came out swinging less than a week after Mahaney stepped down. Here is a portion of his post entitled A Word about C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries:
"I would then encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.
It is clear that far from a scandalous cover up, our brothers at Sovereign Grace are taking these matters with utter seriousness and are endeavoring to walk in Gospel repentance and humility and fidelity. C.J. knows of my complete love and respect for him. And my brethren at Sovereign Grace know of my support and prayers for them. Al Mohler has spoken about this here. And, of course, C.J. has reached out to Mark Dever for counsel and accountability, but I want to emphasize that we fully respect the process that SGM is taking to review the entire situation and that we have no intention whatsoever of joining in the adjudicating of this case in the realm of the internet – a practice as ugly as it is unbiblical."
Meanwhile, Sovereign Grace Ministries and eight individuals have been slapped with a class action lawsuit. It is curious that according to its latest update SGM has not yet been 'served'. Here is how the latest press release puts it:
"October 26, 2012
Statement by Tommy Hill
Sovereign Grace Ministries Director of Administration
Re: A Civil Lawsuit Filed Against Sovereign Grace Ministries Oct. 17 in Maryland’s Montgomery County Circuit CourtThough not yet served, Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) leadership has obtained a copy of the civil lawsuit filed last week against SGM and several pastors of its associational churches."
Why hasn't SGM been 'served' with this lawsuit? Perhaps it has to do with Mahaney's travels to Germany and now Orlando…
No doubt Mahaney and his cohorts will be schmoozing pastors and coercing them to stay in the SGM denomination amid the storm that is brewing on the legal front.
Then there's the other storm – the SUPERSTORM – that some SGMers are facing… Why is God sending Hurricane Sandy to the Mid-Atantic and Northeastern regions? We pray John Piper will refrain from issuing a statement on the 'gospel' reasons behind this hurricane… Could it be that God is finally punishing the Puritans for the witch trials?
And for the younger generation of SGMers who would like to live it up like their leaders, they'll get their chance this summer by attending the new and improved "Next" conference that has been renamed The Transfer. Speakers at this upcoming event are: C.J. Mahaney, Bob Kauflin, Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, Ian McConnell, Jared Mellinger, and the ever objective Kevin DeYoung (who spoke at the Next conference in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012). Yes, Kevin DeYoung was definitely the right man to serve on the Preliminary Panel from the Calvinista perspective. He 'served" his buddy C.J. Mahaney well!
We leave you with a slideshow from last year's SGM Pastors Conference that was featured on the Sovereign Grace Ministries website.
For those of you left behind to weather this megastorm, please know you are in our prayers. Stay safe!
Lydia's Corner: Leviticus 13:1-59 Mark 6:1-29 Psalm 39:1-13 Proverbs 10:10
Rule No. 1 when looking at a church to join: Check out the minister’s lifestyle first. If they’re living the highlife, the members are paying for it and you Will just be one more sheep in flock to be fleeced.
JeffT
It is a “sin” to ask about lifestyles. Evil gossip and all that!
and Socialism too đ
“Godly Speech: The Power of the Words We Speak, Write and Read”
Gee, some things never change.
Whoever is left at SGM is either real into groupthink or making bank off Jesus. The fact it still exists after all that has come out over the last 5 years or so proves it.
Anon 1,
How about the breakout session – Loving and Leading Those Who Criticize.
Critics in SGM need to beware…
1. Will they be refunding the ticket price of those attendees who were unable to make it to the conference due to Sandy and the many road closures and canceled flights she’s producing? Unless of course there is no one attending the conference who hails from within Sandy’s 1000-mile wind field – unlikely, I think.
2. As for punishing the Puritans for the witch trials: the ’38 hurricane – so far – has been worse. Although I did see pics of some ca-RAY-zee breakers off Lynn, MA (awfully close to Salem)!
“How about the breakout session â Loving and Leading Those Who Criticize.”
Hmmm. New policy? So is this admitting something about the recent past? (as opposed to shutting down and shunning?)
Friends, like “internet critics” can be the least objective people in the world.
So, while it is probably wrong for people to speculate too much about what went on and to be critical about it, is it not also just as wrong to speculate too much about what went on and to be supportive?
I understand being supportive of a friend. And I understand that from today’s perspective, looking at SGM and the pastors now, they are probably speaking a different line than they spoke at the time of the events.
The questions that will be asked in the lawsuit are not how sorry eveyone feels now.
The questions that will be “adjudicated” in a courtroom will involve the acts and ommissions that occurred years ago.
That is what is on trial. Not how sorry or sincere people are now.
And I am more than willing to let the court process that to its end and not “adjudicate” it until that happens.
Eagle, thanks! sounds like good advice! Father Martin, encouraging his readers with the following scripture stories found in Luke 1:26-38 and in Matthew 8:23-27, Mark 4:35-41 and Luke 8:22-25 to cope with the storm. He says:  “In times of fear, look backwards. Look where God has been with you in the past, and remember that God will continue to be. Trust that the God who has been with you in the past will not abandon you, either in the present or in the future, sometimes it is hard to see, and sometimes it takes a while to realize exactly how God is with us, but God is there. Remember: God entered fully into our humanity, as a human being, and the Risen Christ is with us in all of our trials. That doesn’t mean that things will not get tough, but the one who you think is not paying attention is closer than you think.”
Now here’s a good comment that those here should pay attention to:
“and that we have no intention whatsoever of joining in the adjudicating of this case in the realm of the internet â a practice as ugly as it is unbiblical.”
Wow, I didn’t know that using the internet like he says, is not only ‘a practice that is ugly’ but also that it is ‘unbiblical’. Wowzers! That sure sounds pretty serious!
Barb, I especially liked this one…
“So, while it is probably wrong for people to speculate too much about what went on and to be critical about it, is it not also just as wrong to speculate too much about what went on and to be supportive?”
So, what is the “speculation” specifically that is “wrong” and who is not critical of spiritual abuse, child molestation and protecting molesters? Oh yeah, SGM and their fellow travellors like Mohler.
Anonymous likes the word “Adjudicate” quite a bit. (wink)
Oh and I guess “years ago” is key here, too. Less sinful if it happened “years ago”? Guess the jury will decide if it was sin or not. (wink)
Anon 1,
Yes, agreed. When you start reading the words in your head, you just can’t get through the whole statement without chuckling out loud and saying something like ‘You gotta be kiddiing!’
You then sigh and you hear yourself saying: Blah, blah, blah …
Eagle, thanks for the YouTube link.
Well, would ya look at that. I…accidentally…hit “dislike” on one of those videos.
Oh, oops, I did it again. Silly me!
My hand, it’s possessed!…
I’m surprised they didn’t include:
“Seductive Toddlers: Gospel Ways To Avoid The Vile Webs They Weave.”
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!
This was the church I used to attend …(sigh….)
— Eagle "Terror Maze" is the latest coat of camo paint for "Hell House"?
Iâm surprised they didnât include:
âSeductive Toddlers: Gospel Ways To Avoid The Vile Webs They Weave.â — JeffB
Why did I just flash back onto “Honey Boo Boo” and the Jon-Benet Ramsey murder? You can’t make up stuff this crazy!
Eagle
I am writing about it on Wednesday. I hoped to surprise you!!
Fr. Matin’s suggestions are good ones.
Eagle, thanks for posting that link.
On a different note, I hope all of you in the eastern states are OK over the next few days re Sandy, whatever your views!
Anonymous –
"The questions that will be “adjudicated” in a courtroom will involve the acts and omissions that occurred years ago.".
This is somewhat true, but not completely. Many people who had grievances with SGM in the past attempted again this past year to resolve issues and were again left feeling abused after they poured out their grievances to AoR. AoR stated that they were surprised with the attitudes of these people with unresolved issues (hmmm).
"That is what is on trial. Not how sorry or sincere people are now. And I am more than willing to let the court process that to its end and not “adjudicate” it until that happens." Much, much more has happened in the past 18 months (unrelated but not) with the way the leaders of SGM have conducted themselves.
For instance, wouldn't it have been proper for the elders in CJ's own local church determine if he was "fit for ministry" instead of the three men, who Dave Harvey said were impartial, determine that? Those men were not impartial. What is worse those men were not familiar with CJ and had not worked with him for years.
Trueman, DeYoung, and Ortlund did not know CJ up close and personal. That is only the tip of the iceberg with CJ and SGM. The bigger part of the iceberg is submerged under the muck and spin of self preservation that has been proclaimed by SGM leaders while CJ has been in hiding at Mark Dever's church and now in Kentucky.
“For instance, wouldnât it have been proper for the elders in CJâs own local church determine if he was âfit for ministryâ instead of the three men, who Dave Harvey said were impartial, determine that? Those men were not impartial. What is worse those men were not familiar with CJ and had not worked with him for years. Trueman, DeYoung, and Ortlund did not know CJ up close and personal.”
Bridget, I was under the impression reading over at survivors that SGM rules or polity were that any SGM pastor under “discipline” had to stay at his church during that time. I read instances of that happening over there. Yet, Mahaney was not under the same rules. He fled to Dever’s arms.
Deb –
SGM has posted their proposed “new polity.”
From what I can tell, they are proposing a new denomination to celebrate their esteemed leadership and wisdom over the past three decades (snark). I perused most of it. It’s about four levels of hierarchy with no decisions made by the local members at all — no surprise there!
I do think there is a bit of an attempt as ususual for some apologists to take to blogs and try to make some feel guilty for “speculating”. Won’t work with me. Too much out there for too many years. And we are talking about protecting child molesters as SGM policy. Not just one church, either. We see a pattern over churches and years.
CJ will try to complicate this with SGM’s bizarre structure as really being autonomous. The SGM statement in response tells us that much. Can you say, “degifting”?
Bridget,
Thanks! I saw the anouncemt over on the SGM website. Maybe we’ll address the new polity in an upcoming post.
Luxury abounds: Mahaney is shoring up his base. Maybe he can convince the SGM pastors at the conference to enroll in SBTS quickly. Maybe they already have.
Anon 1 –
You read that correct Anon. Problem is, CJ was never under official “Church discipline.” SGM has no procedures for anything (Surprise!) So, it was declared by his buddies in SGM leadership that he was not under any official discipline and did not need to stay at CLC. Again, it was not his local elders who determined this. And, yes, that is not how it worked for anyone else for 30 years.
Deb and Anon 1 –
This is what I posted elsewhere after seeing some of the “new polity.”
To be honest, all I see in it is a system to continue to spiritually abuse people with âpermission.â
I hate to keep beating this drum…but, they always talk about the same darn things at these conferences. How do you know about grace if you never talk bout what’s actually in Scripture? All of these messages are topical, all are subject to the whims and opinions of the speaker, all are the same retread issues. When/where do these men ever get exposed to biblical training? What about speaking on meaty issues that actually affect the congregation, say “preaching the use of the OT in the NT”? These messages are focused on the preacher, on his needs, on his personal psychology. And the bible is just a proof text for the whole sham.
NYC subway is flooding. 13Ⲡstorm surge in Manhattan and surrounding area. At least 7Ⲡin the town across the river from me and the Episcopal church where I take music lessons is now either half underwater or on an âislandâ (note: it isnât normally on an island!). Also there is a retreat run by monks in my area out on a tiny island in the middle of the harbor. They were under a mandatory evac order yesterday and the whole place is probably underwater by now.
Eagle, keep laughing…laugh right in Sandy’s face and tell her where to go! I can relate, we get a lot of hurricanes etc. here in Florida. Hang in there.
And the bible is just a proof text for the whole sham.
ScotT, so true! Good words!
Eagle – The purpose of the event is clearly to share the gospel. We’re gonna’ scare gospel into those kids – at $5 a pop!
Bridget said:
“For instance, wouldnât it have been proper for the elders in CJâs own local church determine if he was âfit for ministryâ instead of the three men, who Dave Harvey said were impartial, determine that? Those men were not impartial. What is worse those men were not familiar with CJ and had not worked with him for years. Trueman, DeYoung, and Ortlund did not know CJ up close and personal.”
What you may not realize is that the elders at C.J.’s own church had and still have issues with him. That is a big reason why C.J. decided to move the group’s headquarters to Louisville though SGM may claim it was to save money.
I have shared this before but if C.J. was really a man of character then those who were around him the most like the elders of his local church would be standing up for him but they aren’t. This IMO shows me that the elders knew and saw the problems with C.J. that came to light. They see a problem with Mahaney’s character and actions.
A shame not many realize this.
I hate to keep beating this drumâŚbut, they always talk about the same darn things at these conferences. How do you know about grace if you never talk bout whatâs actually in Scripture? — ScotT
Scripture? You mean The Party Line? The weapon you use to club down anyone who isn’t an SGM Leader or otherwise Elect?
Pingback: Luxury Abounds for SGM Leaders Amid Storms â Both Natural and … |
ScotT
The conferences are also a way to prescribe the latest buzz words to be used so much they lose their meaning-“gospel” is one.
Steve240
Too many people were silent for far too long. Now, CJ has fled into the arms of Al Mohler who can do lots of things but cannot prevent a lawsuit. The lawsuit will open the doors to the church and everybody will not look at the man-CJ. However, since he can’t spin it, he won’t like it. Â
Shame on TGC, Mohler and the rest who have not mentioned the lawsuit.Â
From elsewhere in the press release:
“SGM churches are separately organized and constituted in their respective communities. They voluntarily partner together for certain aspects of their broader common mission…”
And so begins the defense of the national org by claiming they had no control over what happens in “local churches.” I still think Eagle’s idea of putting together documentation and explanation of the hierarchy is crucial, because this is clearly the line they’re going to take…
Ryan M. – Yes, that’s what they said in the press release, but their newly published polity proposal conveys the exact opposite. It makes me laugh, it’s so obvious. They don’t realize how foolish they look. If you’re interested, there’s a good discussion going on about the new polity proposal at SGM Refuge. http://sgmrefuge.com/2012/10/29/sovereign-grace-polity-proposal/
Moniker,
I just read through those comments at SGM Refuge. It’s still all about the SGM power structure. Meet the new boss – same as the old boss…
Breaking News!
In a rare form of unity, SGM encourages solidarity between leadership & layity by issueing statement encouraging everyone to dress up as THE INTERNET for Halloween.
“We want SGMers to stand together and put the gospel front & center this Halloween by showing friends and neighbors that the internet is evil, ugly, full of vicious & wounded people on the attack who have no real knowledge of anything. It’s a scary place full of goblins, witches, demons and the devil – so it makes the perfect Halloween costume.
Serve your neighbors by giving them something for it is more blessed to give than to receive. This is a perfect opportunity for everyone in SGM to go door to door spreading the good news. Let your light shine and hand out invitations to your church. These people need the Savior so they don’t get taken in by the internet!”
So criticizing on the internet is sinful?
At the risk of going slightly off topic, um, has this guy noticed that everyone does that to TWW, Rachel Held Evans, and others who posit ideas and positions that the YRR crowd doesn’t agree with? To be fair, I know his intention in that posting was to focus only on what’s going on with SGM, and he may very well think that all bashing, regardless of the source, is sinful. I just think it’s really ironic, coming from that crowd, to say that using the internet in this way is “unbiblical”—I mean BESIDES the fact that the internet couldn’t possibly BE “Biblical” since it hadn’t been invented yet, AND the fact that HE’S USING THE INTERNET TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE WHO USE THE INTERNET TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE.
That is all.
Ryan
I have heard that the lawyer is well aware of the hierarchy of SGM. CJ may rue the day he called himself “Head Apostle.’ That should play well to the jury….
Evie
So, besides being “served” from a legal perspective, SGM will become the “server?” (Lame attempt at a joke.)
sad observer
Comment of the morning.
“HEâS USING THE INTERNET TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE WHO USE THE INTERNET TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE.”
The sun has come out again! No damage at my place. Other places in my area, though – not so much.
Hester
Thank you for letting us know. I am so glad that you are safe and sound.
Moniker, thanks for that link. What a joke!
Some of the “Girltalk” about the upcoming Pastor’s & Wives Retreat:
Nicole Whitacre, Carolyn Mahaney’s daughter, recommends the gel manicure therapy at the upcoming conference. “They’re great! My nails still look good after washing dishes, folding clothes, keeping the countertops clean..you name it!”
Janelle Bradshaw said she would give up her massage therapy appointment to one of the newest Pastor’s Wives. “When you’re a saint, its what you do,” wrote Janelle in a fancy font, placing her quote on a picture of bread she just pulled from the oven, that you can find for sale on the Girltalk blog – “Because other people suggested I sell these!” she emphasized. When asked if her quote was a contradiction of her father’s favorite quote, “I’m the worst sinner I know,” Janelle said, “You’re one of those people from The Internet aren’t you?”
Kristen Chesemore, another Mahaney daughter who is also a Pastor’s Wife, was unavailable for comment. But Carolyn stepped in and told us, “Kristen doesn’t need therapy of any kind. That’s what I’ve always said, and I will keep on saying it.”
Meanwhile, Carolyn will be getting all the therapy she can possibly get.
That’s right Dee!
( Oh, and thank YOU for serving! đ )
SGM has posted their proposed ânew polity.â
There is so much wrong in this document I hardly know where to begin. The emphasis is on people having the ‘correct’ doctrine, sin-sniffing for those who don’t (“congregants are obliged to lovingly confront one another for impenitent sin”, “elders protect the flock, looking out for “wolves” that can come from without or within the church”), discipline, etc., that the sense one gets is that of oppression and ‘love thy neighbor’ has very little, if any, role.
My hope is that so many churches wise up and disassociate themselves from this brood of vipers that SGM’s polity becomes moot.
They need to have a breakout session on what to do when one of the members of your congregation sexually assults a child in your church. They need to realize that what is done IN SECRET – i.e. – keeping it away from the legal system – is about to become PUBLIC…………and there will be no place to hide. What about all those NEW testament verses about SUBMITTING to the governing authorities? hmmmmm?
âHEâS USING THE INTERNET TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE WHO USE THE INTERNET TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE.â
Priceless. This is the typical thinking from the ruling elite. It is ok when THEY do it.
Dee,
Wonderful to hear đ may justice be served!!!
BTW
âcongregants are obliged to lovingly confront one another for impenitent sinâ, âelders protect the flock, looking out for âwolvesâ that can come from without or within the churchâ
Anybody else creeped out about this stuff? Sound like it came from Nazi Germany.
JeffT, What to do if the elders are wolves? I often think of Acts 20 when watching these guys.
It may look posh but they DO have an extremely reasonable room rate of $70 per night posted for a pre-thanksgiving stay of 4 days. http://rosenshinglecreek-px.trvlclick.com/promotions-and-packages/leisure-packages/
The fact that they timed the event now when a reasonable price is available may mean they were trying to be careful about expenses. Orlando also is prone to having discount airfares available.
TBH, I would be happy for my pastor to be blessed with staying at such a nice joint for $70 per night and a bargain airfare!
(disclaimer: doesn’t mean I love them, agree with their theology, or support everything they do. I just don’t think this is strong evidence that they are fleecing the flock financially)
Anon 1
I often think of Acts 20 when watching these guys.
Too true – Paul had that one nailed.
Please forgive me. I made a math error. It’s only $60 per night for a 4 night stay pre-thanksgiving!
Dee – he actually called himself “Head Apostle???” Heavens. . . .
I’ll be taking all of November off to participate in my first NaNoWriMo. I’ll miss TWW and it’s beloved Dee/Deb pair and the commenters, but I’ll be back early December.
Has SGM created a hostile christian environment, and now the whole world is wondering, what gives?Â
   Hello,Â
    By the grace of God, we can have an excellent kook-detecter. How So?Â
âAnd a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.â âConcerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer.â
By reading the Scriptures!
I have heard these SGM leaders over the years, waxing more, and more eloquent. Iâve been concerned about where they are going, and what kind of fruit this group has been yielding? Now the whole world wonders, what gives? Of a truth, have they not fallen further and further into a mystic pool of legalism, dictatorial rule & control, and misogyny? Yet, their doctrine is only a mask for a deeper seated problem: Â
SGM hurts people with faux religion.Â
This poses a continuing  threat to the safety of women and their children attending this group of ‘family’ churches!, and for years many have been warning about this faux christian denom, that their subtle attitudes, and skew’d doctrine are creating a very hostile environment.  But have the past warnings simply been disregarded? Seems like it. Now will they listen? Only time will tell.
Has SGM become a dis-grace’d movement from first apostle to last member? Â A sovereignly dis-grace’d ministry?
Consider Carefully?
You Decide.
IronClad
Bridget:
I don’t disagree with you. Based on what I have read, SGM still has lots of issues.
I was just saying that much of the evaluation of Mahaney and Co. from their pastor, leader supporters appears to be based on the current sincerity etc. I don’t think that any of these folks have really looked at the allegations in the way that the lawsuit will.
And in the lawsuit, what happened over the years with regard to molestation will be the focus.
Another thought occurred to me last night when thinking about this.
It is clear when reading between the lines from people like Mohler, Duncan, Dever, etc., that they are really crediting Mahaney a lot with not having been a child molestor or purveyor of pornography. For all I know, I assume that Mahaney finds those things wrong.
But Mahaney’s friends clearly underestimate the lack of judgment that comes with the response (or nonresponse) that SGM gave the victims and what that says about Mahaney.
It’s as if avoiding the immorality by the pastor is the brass ring. Handlng, or mishalding situations involving immorality see to get a very wide berth.
That is the disconnect in all of this, I believe.
Priceless. This is the typical thinking from the ruling elite. It is ok when THEY do it. — Anon1
The Party Can Do No Wrong.
Ees Party Line, Comrades.
Anybody else creeped out about this stuff? Sound like it came from Nazi Germany. — JeffS
But SGM does it Lovingly(TM), Biblically(TM), and Humbly(TM).
The Predestined Elect Can Do No Wrong.
Dee â he actually called himself âHead Apostle???â Heavens. . . . — No More Perfect
Humbly(TM), of course.
Peter was ROMISH, remember.
So criticizing on the internet is sinful? — Sad Observer
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!!!”
— either Jimmy Swaggart or Benny Hinn
Be that as it may Charis, and despite your desire to see your pastor enjoy a stay there, the place is in the lap of luxury.
Appearances, appearances. Location, location!
Lights, camera, action!
Steve240 –
Yes, I’m aware of the silence from CJ’s former elders. I personally think they should have been more outspoken. They are the ones that knew him best.
Charis –
I looked at the prices for the conference at the SGM site when registration was up. I didn't write it down, but it was over $100 per night. They definitely weren't getting the Thanksgiving deal.
What some don't realize is that there is often two conferences a year for these leaders and when you add in the nights, airfare, and registration for two, three, or four elders and sometimes their wives, plus food expenses, it can add up to quite an amount. The average church in SGM is maybe 500 members or smaller. Only a few are over 1,000.
“What about all those NEW testament verses about SUBMITTING to the governing authorities? hmmmmm?” – justabeliever
If they are anything like the elders in the last church I was in, they will be misusing those verses to get their congregations to believe that they (the elders) ARE the “governing authorities”!
Anonymous – thanks for the reply. Yes, the peer coverage on CJ unbelievable. I think his peers are treating CJ the way they would want to be treated if they were in his shoes. Unfortunately, they seem to have left justice and righteousness out of the picture.
Hi Bridget,
Even at over $100 per night, to me it is not in the same league as “ministers” who buy and live in mansions and ride personal leer jets around. I found the site. They are paying $134/night for 3 nights. That’s $402 for lodging. http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/events/pastors-conference/travel.aspx
And the elders may very well be paying for at least a portion of their own expenses to attend a conference. Never been to a “pastors conference” but have accompanied my husband to science conferences. His company/university pays for a room and his airfare and food. We have paid for my airfare and food.
Sorry to play “devil’s advocate” but I question the conclusion that attending this conference was unduly expensive? I would not consider my pastor as fleecing me nor think it was a scandal if he attended.
James MacDonald’s mansion OTH…
Charis, The moved to Louisville to “save money”? I have a friend who lives around the corner from the SGM “music minister” who lives in a very nice 600,000 home in an upscale area where homes are a lot cheaper than in the East. I drove by it the other day. Seems they are remodeling.
I do realize that is the new normal in Christendom. After all, Paul had a villa in Corinth. (wink)
Can’t comment intelligently on their move to Louisville or on their financial practices in general as I am not familiar with them, but I attended a Benny Hinn event in person (when I was with my husband on a conference) in Las Vegas, and it made me very angry. We left in the middle.
There is someone who is exploiting poor people to support his own lavish lifestyle. A minimum of $1000 was the required “donation” to get in line for Benny to pray for your healing.
Pastors attending a conference in a pleasant venue- just the way any other professional in America does- doesn’t set off alarm bells for me.
I’m with Charis on this one.
I’ve certainly been to much more expensive conferences as a lowly software developer- this seems reasonable.
Now whether having the conference AT ALL with the legal issues going on is another question. I wouldn’t presume to listen to folks who are guilty of what’s been going on- but I think the price tag seems reasonable for a conference if it were beneficial to helping attendees build up the body of Christ.
All is Ok right where I am, though flooding remains a big danger.
HUG – y’know, not *all* PA Dutch peeps are passive-aggressive narcissists. đ Not by a long shot.
There are severely dysfunctional, deeply troubled people everywhere. Being PA Dutch doesn’t, imo, have all that much to do with it, though there are certain things (in my family, bad communication plus hiding negative emotions) that can contribute to the problems – some of that is plain old stoic Germanness, in my case, at least.
“Fendrel : Nerd Elf’s God Bashing?”
“Since God is omniscient, giving us free will when He KNOWS that we will misuse it, means He must also share the responsibility for the evil that we commit. There is no escape⌔ FendrelÂ
HowDee YaAll,
Sympathy For The Fendrel? Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name? Ha!
Fendrel, this is “smelly cr@p.” You can’t be serious? To blame God for fallen man’s delema. What a hoot! Â To blame God for evil. That’s even better! Bash away! Â He can take it! He can reserve Piper’s bridges and the Frankenstorms for later…
Stormstruck , “you got me shaken in the knees?”
(grin)Â
hahahahahahahaha
hum, hum, hum…all hail da power of Jesus’ name, the angels prostrate fall?
“Open the eyes of my heart Lord,
Open the eyes of my heart,
I want to see you,
To see you high and lifted up,
Shining in the light of your glory,
Pour out your power and love,
As we sing Holy, Holy, Holy,
Is the Lord!”
Oh! Yea! I likez da sound of it!
S“㥔py
Sopy – Fendrel used to be a member of an SGM church…
Charis
At the risk of seeming like a business lecturer, did you know that you can go to Las Vegas and not pay a dime for your room and dining? So why not go there instead? Is Vegas just being nice by offering these freebies? Or are they making money on other things?
Also, did you know that there are other aspects to take into consideration in evaluating the charges of rooms at certain resorts? For example, if this was a Hampton Inn, the cost of the room is significant because the Hampton Inn is not in the business of anything but rooms so their profit margin is in the sale of rooms.Â
So, for a Resort like Shingle Creek, in which I stayed during a cheerleading competition, unless everyone is crowding into CJ’s room for the conference, there are far more factors involved in the costs. That Resort makes its money on the conference itself-by renting facilities and tying in things like golf and dining. So, the cost of a room is merely meeting the overhead-costs to keep the lights on in that room. Add to that this this is the holiday season and conferences are not being held as frequently, the hotel just wants to meet the fixed costs of the hotel rooms. They make it up as conferences book during the year.
I am not sure that the oversight that your husband’s business employs, since, it is either a for profit company, who needs to keep costs down and profits maximized or their board gets antsy, or he works for a government agency and said agnecy does not want to appear on a Fox expose. SGM has no such oversight and rare is the person who crosses the leadership in that free for all that masquerades as a church group.
PS: Do you not remember that CJ wanted SGM to pick up his teenaged son’s flights to one of the conferences?
Numo, glad youze ok. I prayed for yesterday. đ
Evie- you’re cracking me up. Almost as much as your fantastic ufo/cow photo which I’ve been coveting wildly.
Numo, you, that is… đ
Charis: Regarding costs for Shingle Creek
Let me put it this way. I took a trip to DC with my MBA program. We went to the National Zoo. As we walked in, I said, "Oh, it's free!" One of my MBA professors turned around and said that he should flunk me on the basis of that statement alone. I figured out my mistake. So, last year I went to the National Air and Space Museum in DC. As I walked in, I asked a woman behind the desk if there was an admission charge. She said "No, it's free." I smiled and said "Oh no it's not. I paid my taxes."
Anon1
We predicted this move to Louisville a long time ago. Some people thought we were nuts. We weren’t. It had nothing to do with money, unless one looks at it as a way to maintain or increase income by sidling up to the Calvinista elite. Tell me people are not buying the “it’s to save money” nonsense?
JeffS
Please read my two comments to Charis for another take.
Bridget
You get it . Read my two responses to Charis. I got my inner MBA out into the open.
Sopy – much appreciated, fella! đ
Charis
Just so you know, Benny Hinn has never provided on ounce of evidence of any healing to anyone. I believe that he is a charlatan. We wrote a lengthy expose on Hinn and his supposed “gift of healing.”
Dee – charlatan/entertainer. He’s a contemporary version of the old medicine show quacks…
Evie
Read my lecture (two comments to Charis) on evaluating cost/profits at these centers. This palce is no deal and there is major wool being pulled over eyes and the tithers buy it.
Anonymous
If i stand by and allow an evil to occur that i could have stopped, then I am morally culpable. Once again, I think thie publicity if the golden ring in this instance. no matter the outcome of the suit, SGM will look bad and be put into “protects pedophiles” category-true or not. Frankly, I believe they deserve it.
No More Perfect
Oh, he is famous for this. It is in his writings, etc. But, when it became necessary to get along with the SBC, he decided to drop the title last year. I think it was because he said something about how all of us “just don’t understand” what he meant. Oh, i understand quite clearly and so will the jury,
Of all the criticisms of SGM pastors, fleecing the congregation would vie for the most ludicrous.
JeffT
Don't forget, i think your humble blog queens may be considered wolves. i prefer the term wolverines, just like Napoleon Dynamite here. PS-the foottball player is a typical SGM pastor.
No More Perfect: I’m also doing NaNo. Are you No More Perfect over at the NaNo site also?
Joey
It’s not fleecing the congregation if the average SGM tither is gladly paying for the lovely conference venue, is it? it is all a matter of perspective.Â
Joey
I am sure that they give the congregations an open and  comprehensive breakdown of all cost and fees to send everyone down there-along with any bonuses, freebies, etc. When you have  second, could you give that to me so that I can post it here to show their frugality in this matter?
Dee,
You aren’t even making sense. Are you talking about SGM, and the costs they incur verse what they take in? Or the cost for a church to send a pastor? Do you think SGM is handing out bonuses to pastors? They (SGM) do give out books. And (the horror) sell them too.
It’s not fleecing for a pastor to go to a couple conferences a year that cost the church a few hundred bucks per pastor.
I’ve got to go, but I should be able to get back on tonight, because I do want to talk about this further. If the pastors in the SGM churches I had been in are fleecing the flock…they sure hide it behind their terrible cars and modest homes well.
Dee:
Actually, when you mentioned our humble blog queens as wolverines, here’s the image that popped into my head http://marvel.wikia.com/Wolverine
Dee, I read it and I'm unconvinced. I understand the principles and how this stuff is paid for. I'm just uncomfortable saying the cost here is the issue. Going to a conference that is a fraction of what my company would pay for me to go to a conference does not seem excessive to me, and I guarantee you per individual this expenditure does not even come close to costing what my last conference cost my company. And to be clear, I'm no high powered executive of any importance. I'm just a guy who writes software.
To say it differently, if I believed that going to such a conference would be beneficial to my church for my pastor to go, I would be glad for him to attend and pay for a portion of it. If my company can do it for me in the name of money, I can do it for him in the name of Christ.
Again, though, I object to holding a conference when the guilt of SGM has in covering up child abuse not been addressed.
Jeff S
"Going to a conference that is a fraction of what my company would pay for me to go to a conference does not seem excessive to me, and I guarantee you per individual this expenditure does not even come close to costing what my last conference cost my company."
How exactly do you know what it costs? Did you get some insider info? Could you give me the breakdown? Did SGM disclose this amount to everyone? Could anyone send me the actual expenditures?
JeffS
“If my company can do it for me in the name of money, I can do it for him in the name of Christ.” Why is this gathering “in the name of Christ? Did Christ send his disciples to such nice places? Or are they modeling for us, in the here and now, what our mansions will look like in heaven?
Secondly, I have heard this before. if it is good enough for Wall Street, it is good enough for the church. We should model the ethics and lifestyles of secular companies?
Dee, save money? Well you can get a lot of house here for the money. Maybe that is what they mean? McMansions were all the rage here except they are not easy to sell these days.
Perhaps you could help me out with anonymous’ terminology. What does ‘current sincerity’ mean? Is that sorta like ‘situational ethics’?
Dee, I’m not trying to be contentious here- I’m making an educated guess (but I’d be willing to bet a large some of money that my educated guess is right).
I must say, I’m feeling a little attacked here, and I certainly didn’t come in trying to justify SGM or this conference. You know I’m no SGM apologist, right? I hope that you understand that I’m on your side about calling out and exposing what they’ve done. I just disagree with you that this conference is necessarily an example of SGM’s misdeeds.
If it were MY pastor going, I wouldn’t need to know the breakdown of the costs because I trust him to make good financial decisions. That trust is not something he demands, but something he has earned.
We call these things MASS (Mutual Admiration & Sycophantic Society)…
Secondly, I have heard this before. if it is good enough for Wall Street, it is good enough for the church. We should model the ethics and lifestyles of secular companies? — Dee
“GREED IS GOOD! GREED IS GOOD! GREED IS GOOD!”
— Gordon Gecko, Wall Street
Dee, save money? Well you can get a lot of house here for the money. Maybe that is what they mean? McMansions were all the rage here except they are not easy to sell these days. — Anon1
Especially if the McMansion was “built to flip” with thin particle board and styrofoam. Estimated service life of less than five years before literally falling apart — it only has to hold together long enough to flip for a big profit and then it’s somebody else’s problem.
We call these things MASS (Mutual Admiration & Sycophantic Society)⌠— ScotT
Last time I posted what I call these things, Dee bleeped me out.
Actually, when you mentioned our humble blog queens as wolverines, hereâs the image that popped into my head http://marvel.wikia.com/Wolverine — JeffT
Or the original 1981 version of Red Dawn…
Anon1
I think what he means is that they are pretending that they are "oh so" concerned about the little guy in the congregation. In other words, they will pretend that they are doing it right now and what's past, is past and they have recognized they need to be more "thoughtful." That is why they are writing a new polity thing. Yet, we know CJ Mahaney-he is about as sincere as any politican.
Yeah, you are right. They wanted more house for the money-lots and lots of house and adoring new people who haven't been following the news.
"If it were MY pastor going, I wouldn’t need to know the breakdown of the costs because I trust him to make good financial decisions. That trust is not something he demands, but something he has earned." Jeff S. (emphasis mine)
SGM Corporate has lost any earned trust IS the major problem. And why not hold the conference in a more centrally located area? Many of their churches are in the East, but some are not. I, too, have come to believe that the Church is modeling itself after the corporate world. I, personally, do not agree with that model for the church. I would rather meet in a humble bulding or home and give my money to the needy among us and to the needy of the world rather than to pay the rent, electric, and salaries of a staff. I believe many businesses spend too much on frills as well and that inflates the price of the product. These are my personnel preferences. I know many who have no problem with the business model of church.
Jeff S
I am glad that you trust your pastor. SGM pastors have not earned that right. Therefor, i do not trust them and neither do many others. In fact, I am glad you brought up the trust issue. Pastors do need to earn the trust. Many believe that they must get it immediately because of their office. I say to trust but verify.
I am writing another comment about how to do a conference for SGM.
sopy,
I don’t think it’s possible to bash the Almighty. You might as well try and build a perpetual motion machine.
“SGM Corporate has lost any earned trust IS the major problem.”
I agree. I wouldn’t trust an SGM pastor to spend my money wisely, but it isn’t because the idea of a conference is inherently bad. That’s the point I’m trying to make.
Dee,
"I am glad that you trust your pastor. SGM pastors have not earned that right. Therefore, i do not trust them and neither do many others. In fact, I am glad you brought up the trust issue. Pastors do need to earn the trust. Many believe that they must get it immediately because of their office.
I say to trust but verify." I'm with you, and I 100% agree that trust should not be immediately granted.
DEE’S SUGGESTION FOR A NICE, CHEAP Â SGM CONFERENCE
1. Since they claim to have moved to Louisville to save money, and to be more central, Â why not hold the conference there?
2. The Hampton Inn would be a nice place to stay and it does include breakfast. I did breakfast at Shingle Creek-expensive. Hampton Inn-all included plus they make cookies and have hot chocolate every night. I am a Diamond holder of Hilton Honors and i got it staying at Hampton Inns. I have certified good taste and I think it has decent, comfortable rooms.Â
3.I bet Al Mohler at SBTS and the Christian school would provide a great conference facility on the cheap-far cheaper than Rosen will charge.
4. Chick Fil A could cater lunch-dirt cheap and it will support a Christian enterprise. đ
5. Perhaps everyone could go out to eat at a nice chain-Olive Garden, Chili’s etc. I happen to like those places and that is where many of us regular folks go to enjoy a night out.
6. I am sure that Al Mohler and pastor friends have membership at exclusive country clubs. They could probably arrange for a golfing day on the cheap.
7. Of course, CJ is now a pastor. He could get his people to “serve” the pastors, just like CLC did for so many years. They could pick up people and drive them to meetings, etc.
8. I bet that Louisville has some nice little nail places to take care of Carolyn and the girls on the cheap. You would not believe how much it costs for a pedicure at Rosen Shingle Creek.
Can anyone tell me why this would not be a thoughtful way for SGM to handle a pastor’s conference? What is wrong with this model???
Â
Dee,
I would defer to your counsel by virtue of your training in economics and by the just plain common sense you exhibit in your writings.
Dee, you don’t shore up your base, introduce a new polity structure that looks like a cross breed of Presbyterianism with Baptist lipstick, and convince your first tier followers you did the right thing teaching them to protect child molesters but now we’re going to change it…….. at the Hampton Inn.
Environment is important. it helps detract from the lack of substance and consistency that is SGM…. or people of destiny……. or take and give….. or whatever they were before all that or in the middle somewhere. I think CJ has a reinventing yourself guru somewhere.
If you want a little picture of SGM and their? money read this –
[âAlthough this policy is not retroactive to church plants recently funded by SGM, it would be honorable for any church planted in the last five years choosing to leave SG to pay back voluntarily the church plant grant in subsequent years as it is reasonably able. This repayment would honor both the intention of the grant to plant a SG church and the intention of SGM donors to support the planting of SG churches.â Part of SGM Proposed Polity
I thought the mission was to plant local churches not SGM churches.
Also note, if you are a church that has been planted in the past five years and leave SGM, but donât pay back monies, then you are labeled as unhonorable (nice). The word âhonorâ was used twice.
Whose glory are churches being planted for anyway?
This is what SGM says about itself (Mission Statement?) on their âAbout Usâ page. (Not that I am in agreement with what they say.)
âWe are a family of churches passionate about advancing the Great Commission through church planting. In support of that mission we facilitate partnerships among pastors, operate a Pastors College, host events, and publish books, music, and other resources.â SGM
It says nothing about an SGMese church.
And just for the record â I NEVER intended my donations to only be used to plant SGMese churches as stated in SGMâs new polity above . . . âand the intention of SGM donors to support the planting of SG churches.â I thought my donations were going towards the needy and oppressed, while at the same time bringing the Good News to them.]
This was from two comments I made at another site.
Muff
Even with me: Trust but verify!
Anon1
You gave me the best laugh of the day. This must be repeated.
“Dee, you donât shore up your base, introduce a new polity structure that looks like a cross breed of Presbyterianism with Baptist lipstick, and convince your first tier followers you did the right thing teaching them to protect child molesters but now weâre going to change itâŚâŚ.. at the Hampton Inn.”
Bridget
“Although this policy is not retroactive to church plants recently funded by SGM, it would be honorable for any church planted in the last five years choosing to leave SG to pay back voluntarily the church plant grant in subsequent years as it is reasonably able. This repayment would honor both the intention of the grant to plant a SG church and the intention of SGM donors to support the planting of SG churches.â Part of SGM Proposed Polity”
This is the worst piece of $^(@!~(P_*&>>>@ I have seen in a long time. This is worth a post, in and of itself. Deb-Thursday?????
Thank you Beakerj đ
Because I had CJ on the brain, after you made me feel admired I had the sudden urge to shave my head, get on stage, find a spotlight, and start a new religion. You triggered my SGM humility training!
In all seriousness – thanks for your comment đ
Dee –
Yup. If it is truly God's money, as they often say regarding tithing, why has it now become SGM's money and SGM wants it back? Not to mention, if these are church plants prayed over and ordained by God, does God now want to take back the funds He provided? SGM clearly has a vision to advance their kingdom, not the Kingdom of God. The money appears to be God's money when it's in the members pockets, but once it is given to SGM, it is no longer God's money! Bizarre! Oh, and the subtle guilt trip about those churches being honorable with the money that was the "Intention of SGM donors to support the planting of SG churches" is simply priceless!
Charis, 1000K to pray! I would have been so mad too! Glad you walked out! That was not a program you needed to get with! Sounds like you’ve seen some crazy stuff đ
” I must say, Iâm feeling a little attacked here, and I certainly didnât come in trying to justify SGM or this conference. You know Iâm no SGM apologist, right? ”
Jeff, don’t feel attacked. Come on over to visit and I will buy you some breakfast at the Hampton Inn. :o)
” am glad that you trust your pastor. SGM pastors have not earned that right. Therefor, i do not trust them and neither do many others. In fact, I am glad you brought up the trust issue. Pastors do need to earn the trust. Many believe that they must get it immediately because of their office. I say to trust but verify.
”
Folks, if your church does not allow the lowly pew sitter to see a detailed budget quarterly….RUN. I don’t care if it is “elder ruled” or Apostle/care group ruled. GET OUT. Because you cannot verify. There is no excuse for not sharing details with those who are paying for it.
Jeff, Lets stop calling it a “conference”, too. I doubt very seriously it operates as a typical business conference would as I have done hundreds and attended more.
Hey Evie, in honour of your new church I have a new Gravatar. Look out for me in the pews!
Aargh- it hasn’t shown up yet.
“8. I bet that Louisville has some nice little nail places to take care of Carolyn and the girls on the cheap. You would not believe how much it costs for a pedicure at Rosen Shingle Creek. “d
There is a “Happy Nails” real close to the Hampton Inn. You can get man/ped for 35 bucks. Just ignore the Buddha statue in the corner. They have massage chairs! But there might be a guy giving you the pedicure. Don’t worry, he does not speak English so it does not count. Or they could go to Z Salon and Spa. Zenda rolls out the red carpet for Christian women’s groups. The local mega used to have “staff retreats” there all the time. Manicures/Ped are much higher there, though.
Hey, I could plan a real snazzy 4 days for them on the cheap. I could be like those pastors who do “Christian” cruises and get some services for free!
If we really want to go for the top line, We could do Foxhollow clinic and spa.
Well, honestly I have no idea what they do there. In my mind I am assuming a conference because that’s what they call it. But it really doesn’t matter to me, as I’m not likely to support anything they’d be doing there. My point was only that I don’t see setting up a conference (or whatever it is) for pastors in nice accommodations as being inherently bad. I see that many of you do.
Personally, I think this post weakens the case against SGM for those who may not understand what the big problems are, but I assume we are free to disagree on that point. And when I said “attacked”, that was too strong a word. It’s more like I felt that I was getting pressed for having a dissenting opinion, and that’s precisely the thing this blog stands against. Maybe my perception was wrong, but it is how I felt.
Meep!
P.S. I can’t help feeling a bit freaked out by all this mani/pedi beauty stuff for Pastor’s wives, is this normal in the States? Not sure how well that would go down here. I certainly don’t remember L’Abri Member females or wives going off for one at their yearly Member’s Meeting.
Tina – yep, I am No More Perfect there, too! This is my first year, so I am not sure how to add friends and such on the site. . .
The fact is that whether it is SG or any other church, the money that they use for these conferences is from working people. Who cares if you can get a $70 room. It still comes from people who struggle to pay their bills and folks who do well financially. People who work their butts off day to day. Unlike these pastors. Well, if you count scamming people as work. These pastors feel entitled to spend others money how they please.
Jeff, you trust your pastor way too much. He's not that trustworthy.
âAlthough this policy is not retroactive to church plants recently funded by SGM, it would be honorable for any church planted in the last five years choosing to leave SG to pay back voluntarily the church plant grant in subsequent years as it is reasonably able. This repayment would honor both the intention of the grant to plant a SG church and the intention of SGM donors to support the planting of SG churches.â Part of SGM Proposed Polityâ
This is the worst piece of $^(@!~(P_*&>>>@ I have seen in a long time. This is worth a post, in and of itself. Deb-Thursday?????”
Well Dee, it is not real clear. Is it NEW policy as in a contract for new church plants? (Gotta get the new one “planted” first) And obviously they cannot demand the older church plants that left to pay back. This is their bubble thinking….it is “honorable” to pay it back? Seriously? Look who is talking about “honor”. I can hear Paul now….since you have not done what I told you to do in my last letter and you are no longer listening to me as your superior, you must return the money we sent you in order to be honorable. PS: We really need the money to buy new villas in Philippi.
This is like planting a church with Vito Coleone. Sheesh!!!
"Jeff, you trust your pastor way too much. He’s not that trustworthy."
I do not think you are qualified to judge that, and I find this comment to be very offensive.
Anon1
Bad news. You must spend the night to get the free breakfast. However, since I am a Diamond member, perhaps I could give them a call….
Jeff, Why do you find it offensive?
.”S. I canât help feeling a bit freaked out by all this mani/pedi beauty stuff for Pastorâs wives, is this normal in the States? Not sure how well that would go down here. I certainly donât remember LâAbri Member females or wives going off for one at their yearly Memberâs Meeting.”
Beaker, big stuff here. Especially in mega circles. It is biblical. It is in the book of Esther. (wink)
There is a place close to here called French Lick Resort in New Baden, In. It is a big destination for Christian women groups to do a little bible study, some riding and spa treatments. http://www.frenchlick.com/spas/frenchlick
(disclaimer- they get the sparkling water not the champagne)
I recommend the Hungarian Facial.
You obviously have not studied scripture with Beth Moore in the Austrian Alps. I have a friend who did that one.
Dee,
I have all I can do to verify the guest check & tip when my better half and I go to our local Italian eatery, that’s why I’d trust your judgement on the financial logistics for a conference. ===> (smiley face goes here)
“Bad news. You must spend the night to get the free breakfast.”
Oh dear…..
:o)
JeffS
We encourge dissenting opinions-love them, in fact! We enjoy a good disagreement. That is something that is not allowed in many churches today. We must all march lockstep and say what the leadership is saying or we are in trouble. Not here!
If you followed our discussions with Jimmy, we allowed his difficult and insulting comments for a long time before putting him on ice for two weeks. But he can come back!
This is place to hash it out. Disagree and go on together. Unity in disagreement is a beautiful thing!! Churches should try it sometime. And, as you will see, we have only deleted a handful of comments in our time on the net. And we have been called all sorts of names, etc. I am still waiting to be called an Amalekite. We have been called Philistines.
I think it is cool that you disagree!Â
I’m am offended that you presume to tell me what I should believe about my pastor and you label someone you’ve never met as not trustworthy.
BeakerJ
Man/pedis are now cool in the States. Even little old ladies go for them and little girls have birthday parties at such places. If you go to Girltalk, one of the “girls” shows off her polka dotted toenails.
Anon1
Having SGM leaders lecture on “honor” is like having a lion lecture on being a vegetarian.
Jeff, you are cool, buddy.
I once paid 18 bucks PLUS TIP for a SMALL silver pot of coffee sent to my room at a posh resort where I was attending a meeting. I would not even put it on my expense report I was so embarassed.
Dee, I know you do- I’ve seen it in action and I think highly of what you do here.
I just didn’t understand why you pummeled me with a bunch of questions about whether I’d seen SGMs budget when you know I haven’t. I’m sure you knew my statement was an educated guess, so the response seemed rather hostile.
Maybe I’m just super sensitive because I sure am tired of feeling afraid of voicing my opinion when I dissent from the established view (I’m not saying here- I’m saying in general when deal with people of faith), but it did feel like your response was more agressive than my original post.
Jeff S
Don't be offended. There are many people on this blog that trusted in pastors for years, believed their words, and then got screwed. In the end, each of us has to come to the place that we know that even the best man/woman can be sinful and surprise us in a negative way. There is a reason we need grace throughout our lives. We are all capable of being untrustworthy. We are positionally holy but functionally sinful.
True story: one of the pastors that I admire most is a man who had an affair with a woman over a decade ago. It was a terrible failure and hurt the church-lawsuit, etc.. Yet, he went through discipline and returned to teaching but not as a pastor. His thinking has profoundly affected me. I am who I am because of his teaching (which may be good or bad depending on how you feel about me).
This man will tell you that "Even on my best days, my motives are mixed." He has helped me to understand that even the most incredible Christian can be capable of difficult sin. So, I like the following motto: "In God we trust; all others we monitor."
Hope that helps.
JeffS
Actually, after reading your comment, I thought that you might know something that i do not know-honestly. I wondered if you might be involved in resort management, etc and had an idea of the price point. It was the way you worded your comment. Look back at it.
Perhaps I sounded aggressive. It is sometimes hard on blogs. I am frequently surprised when someone challenges my “tone” since i know that i was in a positive mood when i wrote a comment. Â Sometimes I am in a bit of a hurry. I try very hard to respond to as many people as possible. Part of what i do here is to challenge assumptions and I apologize if I made you feel uncomfortable. i did not mean to do so.
Anon1
Defintely no silver pot at Hamptons but they do have three types of brewed coffees. The robust one is good!
JeffS
And I will disappoint you as well although I do not want to do so.
I get it, and believe me I’ve been burned. And I certainly don’t trust that my pastor is not capable of major failure type of sin. He is certainly capable of misspending church funds among other things.
However, I DO trust that he has a heart for people and is full of compassion. I DO trust he knows Jesus and wants to serve him. I am not going to make him subject every action he does to me, even though I agree I have the right to ask (and I’m confident he’d provide whatever info I wanted to see).
When I go to a conference I am basically on my honor as to whether the conference is really worth it. If my company can trust me this way, surely I can extend the same courtesy to my pastor?
Hmmm, I may have to try a mani/ pedi if they’re that good for the soul. Will it give me the gospel gloss I so crave? It’s just the recontextualised version of Jesus washing my feet, right?;-)
Dee, I can’t believe you misread my tone on the Internet!
Fair enough- I misread the tone of your post too đ
No, I have no special knowledge of anything SGM related. I wouldn’t go near one of the churches knowing what I know.
Anon 1, I frequently do not expense all of my meals or whatever if they are extravagant. Last trip I kept the rental car for 3 extra days and took the $30 off my expense report because that was for personal use- my manager laughed at me!
Beaker, they are definitely good for you expecially if you pay for them yourself out of your earnings. (wink) They are a must before sandal season. No excuses!
Jeff S, I take full responsibility for the TONE of the post since I wrote it. Actually, I wasn't as hard on SGM as I could have been.
I meant the tone of your reply to me. I’m pretty sure I got the tone of your post against SGM.
Well, the SGM Pastors Conference has begun. The first SGM blog update is here: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Sovereign-Grace-Pastors-Conference-Welcome.aspx They say “Keep your eye out for regular recap posts, as we share highlights from each main session. And for those who want to join in tweeting, the hash tag is #SGPC12.” I think maybe we oughta join in the tweeting, don’t you? đ
@Hester, I am so sorry that you and those you know are dealing with the flood. I lost my home a few years ago to over 4 feet of water. The most useful thing I learned (from a Katrina survivor) was to save our clothes and bedding and such – add about a 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide to every load in the washing machine. We were able to save about 95% of our clothes/blankets/sheets that way. Dee or Deb can give you my personal email address if you would like. This goes for anyone who has been affected by Sandy – I’ve been there and I know the many frustrations.
Eagle,
I’d replace Dahmer on your list with Hannibal Lecter. Bon Appetit!
“Is SGM Just A Big Ole Footstool?”
“I donât think itâs possible to bash the Almighty. You might as well try and build a perpetual motion machine.” MuffP
HowDee YaAll,
…tee hee, sin is in perpetual motion, i’ze afraid. Heck, SGM revels in who’s the worst, sinner, go figure? Man, theyz even have doze care group thought police, rightz?
Court time for da bad putty tat? Take dat you bad bad “putty tat”, smack, smack!Â
da question you ask youzeself is how big is da Lord’s footstool gonna b. Big Ut’ O, huh? (sadface)
“Un jour sans fin?”Â
could b.
(grin)
hahahahahaha
S“㥔py
___
p.s. Way ta go Bridget! U go Girl!
p.p.s. hey, Steve240, we’se a lively bunch over here, can youze maybe, pick up da pace a bit, your putting folks ta sleep in dis here thread. Sanctimonious doesn’t play well here.  Quack! Quack! “Care ta try, try, again?” Everybuddy here knowz dat da Ceege is three frys short of a happy meal. -snicker-
Mandy,
You are so kind to reach out to Hester (and other Hurricane Sandy victims). I am grateful that you survived Katrina and are willing to share your helpful tips.Â
Blessings!
JeffS – I think one of the main objections to this SGM conference is that it *really* looks like Nero fiddling while Rome burned. (and yeah, I know that story is apocryphal, but I think it’s a pretty decent analogy. :))
Deb, I didn’t survive Katrina. Another hurricane. I was just blessed enough to learn from the Katrina survivors on how to deal with similar issues. Sorry for the confusion.
Well, it looks like the gospel coalition website has posted some more reviews of Rachel Evans book. Justin Taylor has a post with Keller”s wife addressing Evans. Anyway, I just looked at the comment section and it appears that the sovereign grace problems have been brought up by a commenter. It will be interesting to see if they stay up there. I copied the post and will post it below in case it gets removed. So what are the odds the comment gets removed?
The comment is by Bummed and is below……
” JT,
Interesting post. A couple of observations. Friend? The meaning and language of friend is completely abused in scholarly circles and the streams of Christendom. You have misunderstood the proverb and given a truncated application. Hermeneutically the proverb needs to be interpreted in light of how Christ is a friend. That being said, as a reformed believer I am disappointed that Evans is being so widely criticized. There really is no reason to criticize her as a false teacher or second rate scholar. She simply sees herself on a faith journey, let’s let her have her journey, but like Oz pay no attention. I think it would be more helpful if you could provide some insight into the tragic events that have unfolded within our own camp with our dear brothers and sisters at SGM. The little I have heard has caused me great concern, but the lack of address by TGC or others has made me feel concerned as well. This needs to be addressed. A statement communicating the heinousness of abuse needs to be crafted, as well as one that admits that there has been sin in the camp. Judgment needs to be withheld on all sides, until the legal process works itself out. Anyway, those are my two cents that we would be better served by a pastoral response to the abuse allegations then going after the low hanging fruit of egalitarianism.”
Numo, I absolutely agree that this looks like Nero fiddling while Rome is burning and think it is reprehensible to be holding such a conference without any public repentance. And I would think so even if they were staying in host homes for free and meeting over breakfast at the local waffle house. đ
Yes, I would agree with Jeff S – the problem is more that the conference is “business as usual” with not even a hint of the brewing scandal, than the cost of the hotel.
Our house is fine (inland on a hill) but some of the beach cottages in our area have had their facades/foundations destroyed. And lots of the beaches themselves are gone or washed over the roads. We’re still waiting to find out if someone we know who lives right next to a tidal marsh has had problems with this.
Hmm. Tim Challies has a link (Oct. 30) to an article by David Murray called “What Would I Do If I Was Falsely Accused Of Sexual Immorality?” The article references the Dinesh D’Souza incident. Am I being unduly suspicious that Challies linked to an article like this in light of the lawsuit against SGM and his recent puff piece on Mahaney?….Nah, I’m being *duly* suspicious.
http://headhearthand.org/blog/2012/10/29/what-would-i-do-if-i-was-falsely-accused-of-sexual-immorality/
JeffB,
Good article. Who knows what Challies was thinking. Maybe he is starting to see the light about CJ & SGM. There are some applicable points, but this from one of David Murray’s comments was especially true of Mahaney and why there continues to be so much controversy surrounding the man and his ministry:
Bingo! There’s the money shot right there. Mahaney admitted to various forms of pride and for being unentreatible. Has he come clean? I think if we were to ask him, he wouldn’t even discuss it. To him the matter is behind him. He’s been ‘exonerated.’ But not in the court of public opinion, which he and his company keep demonizing.
Question is, is that what’s wrong ere? Are people going after an innocent, falsely accused man?
As they say, if you believe that, “I have a nice piece of swamp land I’m sure you’d be interested in buying..
p.s. After decades of opining about how PDI/SGM was the real deal, it sure looks and sounds like a parachurch thing now doesn’t it?
p.s.s. Beakerj – awesome avatar! Love the spray tan. Perfect for Halloween đ
silent Obi-One
Thank you so much for posting that comment here. I know that a couple of readers have tried to post comments about SGM at several sites at TGC and those comments were removed. From what I can see, this is an active  attempt to suppress information and it bodes well of the transparency of The Gospel Coalition. They rae no different than any other ho hum secular group when it comes to honesty and this makes me very sad.
Now, on to adding more numbers to the days of non-response by weenie leaders. Men? My foot!
C.J. was back in the pulpit at his church plant in Louisville this past Sunday. He preached a message titled “A Surprising Punch LIne” from Luke 18:9-14. He has preached the exact same message at least two times, once at Kevin DeYoung’s church here:
http://www.universityreformedchurch.org/teaching/sermons.html?sermon_id=525
and once at the SGM church in the DC area he attended while fleeing from his home church, here:
http://www.solidrockchurch.net/blog/index.php/p/a_surprising_punch_line_luke_189-14
Evie
I, too, was a bit mystified by the title. I love the words”wrongly accused.”
I guess when you only have this many people at your church it’s not really worth the effort to do the required study and prepare a sermon.
http://instagram.com/p/RVMiDlp9F7/
Funny, but the CJ was supposed to be preaching through Philippians. Not this week – serving warmed up leftovers from his bag of “old faithful” sermons. I wonder if they teach you that in Pastor’s College?
http://www.sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-sermons
Yeah Dee, its intriguing. I think Jeff is on to something though, because if you add the SGM situation as a layer and read it in to the article between the lines, many principles apply. Yet, Challies is silent, providing no commentary.
As are the Big Dogs. Silent. What day is this? But they sure were quick to come to Mahaneys defense.
What is your best guess as to where their heads are? In the sand or what? Floating on a raft in de Nile? Perhaps these men assume only the little people are capable of serious deceit. Or are they guilty by association, turning a blind eye to sins they know too sell, and saying something would expose their hypocrisy?
It’s not as if these men have no comment. I think they are afraid of making their holes bigger or something. Ha! Welcome to the world of SGM gentleman. Unless you leave, and leave it well behind, you will end up with Compromise scattered all over your playing field.
The longer this goes on, and the longer they say/do nothing, the more tainted they will become. It’s inevitable!
@ JeffB:
Is Challies implying that Dinesh D’Souza was, for sure, falsely accused? Because that’s rushing to judgment just as much as those who felt certain he was boinking his fiancee in the hotel (something we can’t prove). What we KNOW is that he is still legally married to his first wife and, until they suspended the engagement, was engaged to a second woman who identified herself as married to someone else as recently as this spring. (Also, her blog has now vanished from the internet…) Now I can’t prove that he’s slept with her. But at the very least, that’s serious impropriety.
And his only defense is to claim he didn’t know that it was unacceptable? Before Obama and 2016, D’Souza made a name for himself on the apologetics/worldview circuit, which is closely connected to debate and forensics. (This is why I’m still always slightly confused for a moment when D’Souza is called a political figure – I knew him as a religious figure years before that.) The man is not an idiot. So I remain unimpressed and befuddled by his use of the “stupid” defense.
“Dinesh DâSouza”–no one in the Christian world wants anything to do with him now. It seems to always work that way.
His credibility whether or not it is fair is shredded.
He was out there trying to tar and feather someone and got tarred and feathered himself.
Interesting how that works isn’t it.
TW
Thank you for that awesome picture of CJ preaching to a nearly empty auditorium. I guess he doesnt’ feel it is worth his time to stick to a sermon series when the people are so obviously obtuse to not want to come and hear him speak.
Is that picture copyrighted? i would love to post it.
“What is your best guess as to where their heads are?”
Evie, I think one of the anonymous commenters here on that subject has provided us with a good indication of where their heads are on this. And since I believe this commenter is on the SBTS Foundation Board and probably has some insight into where they are on this. It would not surprise me a bit if he felt obligated to insert such ideas on this blog for which I am grateful.
He comments include: It will be “ajudicated”. It is in the “past”. And they (big cheeses) are most likely looking at CJ’s “current sincerity”.
You must remember, many of the big cheeses have promoted CJ for years. They have shared stages, defended him, blurbed and promoted his books, even writing intro’s for them. There are tons of video’s out there of them with CJ. I do not think they look at this the same way we do at all. I think they AGREE with CJ and SGM shepherding polity. I think many of them wish it were that way for them.
Personally, I think CJ will weather this thing. When there is a lot to lose and you have well heeled folks circling the wagons for you who also have a lot to lose concerning influence and credibility, they tend to “make” things happen in certain ways. I have seen it quite a lot. Until the money drys up, the cycle will continue for all of them. They cannot exist in their positions without the money. It is that simple.
Hester
Deb and I saw D’Souze debate Bart Ehrman at UNC-CH a few years back. I also knew him from The Dartmouth Review . This is the undeground student conservative newspaper. My husband went to undergrad and med school at Dartmouth.
That is why his current trouble is unexpected. He is intelleigent. But how many people fall when their hormones get in the way?
Anon 1~
“I think they AGREE with CJ and SGM shepherding polity. I think many of them wish it were that way for them.”
That’s the conclusion I have had to come to. If they did not agree, there would be concern from them… and not just behind the scenes concern to them personally, but voiced to us publically. Since there is not, I have to think they find nothing wrong in it.
http://web.stagram.com/p/291572253700117264_214212547
They used “winsome” in their marketing materials. Oy vey.
Diane, I am also basing my opinion they want CJ’s polity and shepherding cult tactics based upon what I am seeing come out of SBTS first hand.
Reason number 67 to register for SBTS? You may see CJ Mahaney in class. (I saw this in a tweet.)
Anon 1 or anyone~
Why would he be taking classes? Or did they mean he is teaching?
Why is it good enough for those that support/attend SGM churches for there to be a very vague explanation about how SGM is now partnering with SBTS for training? Why do they want training from there? Why, now, isn’t their PC enough on its own like it has been…even touting it as superior to other seminary training? What is the reason for this addition (SBTS) that is not being stated? Now it’s a good idea to have some additional training there? Why? What happened to the all sufficiency of the PC?
That is why his current trouble is unexpected. He is intelleigent. But how many people fall when their hormones get in the way? — Dee
Depends on whether their brains are located above or below their belt.
“Why would he be taking classes? Or did they mean he is teaching?”
Perhaps both. It would be understandable since SGM never pushed a seminary education before for their pastors— for him to take the lead in taking classes. I would buy tickets to watch CJ be a student. However, I have no doubt the prof would defer to him because of Mohler’s relationship. No one disses Mohler and stays around long.
As to teaching, he might be a guest lecturer or something but they also have to worry about accreditation. I would think some of the people there who have worked their rears off for an M.Div or PhD to teach, would see the absolute ridiculousness of having CJ “teach” anything there.
Dee and Deb,
Fascinating article I saw related to Billy Graham and Romney’s endorsement. Take a look and if it makes sense feel free to post it. I would have emailed it to you, but I don’t have your email address. I apologize for the link, but I think you might like it
http://mediarostra.com/2012/10/27/the-fall-of-the-house-of-graham/
There are so many elements to whole catastrophe of SGM. Its like all the bad elements conspired together to create the perfect storm. Things were brewing for a long time. No precautions were taken. Warnings were ignored. They thought they were safe and that no one could touch them inside their little bubble.
In my view, the line in the sand is CJs “confession.” You either believe him or you don’t, and your view of Mahaney & SGM is consequently shaped by that.
Evie said, “In my view, the line in the sand is CJs âconfession.â You either believe him or you donât…”
Jared Mellinger (sr pastor of Covenant Fellowship of Glen Mills, PA, and Dave Harvey protege/clone) tweeted last night from the SGM Pastor’s Conference:
Dave Harvey: Mercy means “I’ll except your confession at face value.” #sgpc12
Looks pretty obvious that they’re not questioning CJ’s “confession”.
I suppose his confession means no degifting needed? Anyone have a link to the confession?
Diane, I am also basing my opinion they want CJâs polity and shepherding cult tactics based upon what I am seeing come out of SBTS first hand. — Anon1
I am a survivor of Shepherding(TM). I never got sucked deep into it, but the shallows were enough. It is a control freak’s wet dream. The shepherd’s boot on the sheep’s neck, all justified by GOD, with Hellfire and Damnation (and being Left Behind) if the sheep dares to resist in any way. Whether Love-Bombing or Hellfire-and-Damnation, the result is the same. The Shepherd’s Boot, on your face, Forever.
Anon 1 – I’m not quite sure which confession we’re talking about, but it could be this: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/11/11/transcript-of-c-j-mahaneys-remarks-at-the-sovereign-grace-ministries-2011-pastors-conference/
or possibly: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/07/11/a-stenographers-notes-part-1-from-covenant-life-churchs-july-10-2011-family-meeting/
or maybe both. At any rate, I think you’ll find both of them very enlightening.
The only confession I’m aware of happened at his former church, CLC, in July of 2012. He left the building, answered no questions, and NEVER returned to that congregation. Later in the year, at the pastors conference 2011, he stated that he was too quick to repent and quoted some TGC buddies that said his sin was common (no big deal). In any event, he pretty much took back the previous confession.
Thanks Moniker. The first is the taking back, the second one is the original confession. Most people were expecting addition communication on the confession at the PC, but got something else altogether. He never confessed anything to the pastors in his “family of churches.”
So Bridget, Am I understanding that Dave Harvey and others are referring to the older confession at CLC when he stepped down when Harvey preaches this to the pastors: Forgiven sinners forgive sin,â
Listen, anyone who has read the sgmwikileaks docs knows these guys are as slippery and fake as they come. CJ is the prizewinner though. He put nothing in writing that would ever come back to bite him, I noticed. He admitted nothing of substance. Everything was opaque and vague. He is the master manipulator.
Moniker, Thanks for the links. I cannot keep up. I thought there might have been a newer improved CJ confession for the sgm pastors conference concerning the lawsuit and the teaching pastors to protect molesters and pedophiles in the past.
Anon 1 –
I’m not sure what you are referring to here:
“So Bridget, Am I understanding that Dave Harvey and others are referring to the older confession at CLC when he stepped down when Harvey preaches this to the pastors: Forgiven sinners forgive sin,â
Reading it again . . . I’m not sure what Harvey was referring to. These guys never seem to address anything in simple, straightforward language. Everything comes across opaque, on purpose it seems. This is part of the reason they are in the mess. They either don’t know how to communicate, or they choose to communicate the way they do, and it serves an intended purpose. Either way, it is not the characteristic or “mark” of anyone who should be an elder đ The leaders of SGM could be disqualified as leaders on many levels and issues. — But, apparently “they hold the keys” and are “the worst sinners they know” and anyone not forgiving them is just “not merciful.”
Anon 1 –
” I thought there might have been a newer improved CJ confession for the sgm pastors conference concerning the lawsuit and the teaching pastors to protect molesters and pedophiles in the past.”
You’re making comedy today đ
If this had happened, SGM probably wouldn’t be in the midst of a lawsuit.
Moniker-
This quote from Dave Hravey cracks me up
“Dave Harvey: Mercy means âIâll except your confession at face value.â #sgpc12
Funny…Dave and his henchmen almost NEVER took any members confession at face value. Inquisition would not be too strong of a description of how leaders would grill lowly members who had confessed a sin.
Maybe Dave would like to share what has changed his mind…but I won’t hold my breath.
Bridget, One of the most frustrating things to me is that we are chided for taking words at face value when guys like Mohler say that “NC is the only place to go if you want to see the nations rejoice for Christ” OR when he said some in the SBC should be marginalized for signing the Trad statement of beliefs.
When it comes to those things, we are NOT to take them at face value. We simply do not understand. We do not have the special decoder ring. One YRR pastor explained the first Mohler quote like this: Mohler considers every single person in the SBC to be a New Calvinist. I dined out on that one for a long time. :o)
But then, we also have lots of vague communication which says nothing by people who make their living as communicators! I could spend all day on this one using Piper as an example, alone! CJ is right up there with him, though. I have managed to trudge through a few of his sermons and OH MY. I think people got caught up in the passion and forgot to check the veracity of many of his claims.
Bridget
Everything about CJ is “common.” Way too common, tediously common.
“SGM Victims: Just Halloween Treats For Da Church Tricksters?”
SgM victims: frankly C.J., we don’t give a d@mn…
C.J. : I’ll go to Tera, er? Louisville, and I’ll find anodder way ta get um all back!Â
later… a change of heart?
C.J. : I’ll get you my pretty, and your lit’l blog too!
later still,
Judge Judy: C.J. , The court finds you guilty, for your sentence, you will eat every copy of your humility book published, let that be a lesson to you!
(grin)
Sopy
Dave Harvey: Mercy means âIâll except your confession at face value.â #sgpc12
Hahahhahahaa… bad grammar is more revealing than he thinks!
Sopy –
Maybe we should start sending every copy of the “Humility” book to CJ’s new home addess. He can stack them neatly in a closet (as to not mess-up the counters) so he is ready to go!
Mercy means âIâll except your confession at face value.â
No.
Mercy means defending the weak and defenseless as your first priority.
Jeff S
I reviewed a church covenant which defines unconditional love as telling you what is wrong with you.
I swear this stuff is nuts.
Dee, this stuff is pervasive, I know. I have heard more stories of forgiving abusers while the abused are run out of churches it just makes me sick.
As long as we as the church support abusers to the detriment of the abused, we are not churches centered on Jesus Christ. At that point theology doesn’t matter- our behavior aligns us with the devil. And it isn’t just SGM- what is going on there is the same thing going on in evangelical churches across the world. We need to wake up and repent. A church without mercy is a church preaching a false Gospel.
“SGM: Maintaining Spiritual Contact… ‘Mission Impossible’ ”
Sovereign Grace Church Book Of Order “PROPOSAL”?
Out of order, perhaps?
A day late, and a dollar short?
Potty polity, perhaps?
hmmm…
C.J., “The more you tighten your “grip”, the more SGM churches will simply slip right through your fingers…”
hmmm… could b.
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
>>===> forgiveness doesn’t mean condoning the continuance of very bad behavior dat is hurtin’ kind folks…da sum of which is some bad @zz dumpster diving!
EeeeeU!
S“㥔py
“I reviewed a church covenant which defines unconditional love as telling you what is wrong with you”
I have been reading those, too. It is HUG’s “boot on the neck” defined as “love”.
What it really is: very small insecure men who get power.
FYI-this article is talking about SGM and CJ… đ
Symbiotic Sycophants
“Which brings us to the point about Sycophants. Sycophants are Lemmings. They go wherever the Stuffed Shirt goes, even if off they head off a cliff. Why do they follow? In hopes that the Spiritual Elitism and/or Financial Success of the Stuffed Shirt will rub off on them.
There is a Symbiotic relationship between a Sycophant and a Stuffed Shirt. A Sycophantâs role is to elevate the Stuffed Shirt to his superior expert role. Sycophants are an essential part of the process. A Stuffed Shirt cannot exist in his Supremacy without many underlings who function as cheerleaders, facilitators, networkers, conference attendees and book purchasers. Sycophants are expected to be advertisers of a Stuffed Shirtâs ideas, theologies, projects and brand name. Sycophants pay to do this. It helps fund the Stuffed Shirtâs life calling, including his Halftime retirement plan.
The role of Sycophant has key requirements: Donât think. Donât analyze. Donât ask questions. Just accept. Just follow. Sycophants are expected to adulate, imitate, emulate and admire their Stuffed Shirt. The self-esteem and lifeâs purpose of a Sycophant must be tied to the ideas, plans, visions, theories, theologies and ambitions of the Stuffed Shift that they follow. Name-brand loyalty is another key to Stuffed Shirt survival. Sycophants must proclaim in unison, âI am of Apollosâ (1 Cor. 3:4), especially in order to disdain any of their Stuffed Shirtâs competitors or opposition.
Stuffed Shirts use Snake Oil for aftershave. They have clever ways to guarantee that they will remain in Sacred Sainthood regardless of opposition. In fact, some Stuffed Shirts seem to be made of Teflon. They will often band together into newly-created Entities for Elites that are given clever marketing names and new conference circuits. The list of Stuffed Shirts as keynote presenters is always filled with Impressive Credentials. No one ever has a Bad Hair day in their Conference promo photo.
http://herescope.blogspot.com/
In the retracted “confession” C.J. said this:
” I want to do all I can to guard the gospel of Christ and him crucified. I want to do all I can to protect your relationship with the pastors at this local church. I want to do all I can to protect all the churches in SGM. I have the deepest respect for the pastors and members and I donât want to harm you or them in any way. So, I want to do all I can to protect the pastors and churches in SGM. Most importantly, I want to please God. I want to please Him and I want to crucify sin, whatever this requires of me. So please pray for me, and please pray for Sovereign Grace in [missing word] and our matters of policy and practice that need to be addressed and appear as team leader, a primary responsibility for these arise since these have been revealed on my watch.”
A shame that C.J. Mahaney basically didn’t do any of this. Instead of taking time off to reflect, Mahaney was back preaching again.
Mahaney certainly hasn’t done all he could. He is now causing the group’s demise.
Haha Diane that was great! It totally applied to CJ and the world of SGM – all, that is, except for this part:
đ
Steve, when I read the retracted “confession” you posted, all I could hear was, “blah, blah, blah blah blah…”
The emperor…has…no clothes!!
Evie, Reminds me of one of my favorite John Wayne quotes: He is just spittin out words to see where they splatter.
I guess whatever your venture, as long as it’s “gospel-driven” it will further ones sanctification! Sarcasm off.
“Together, C.J. and Chad are a father-son team seeking to bring a unique, gospel-driven discernment to sports through a weekly podcast and articles.”
http://www.mahaneysports.com/#!about/c1715
I find CJ’s blurb on Mahaney sports disturbing:
“…hates Duke basketball and the Dallas Cowboys….”
Not very Christ like. I know it’s a tongue in cheek sports reference, but still…
TW – Thanks for the heads up on the Mahaney men’s “Chad & Dad Sports Talk” blog. It looks like it’s brand new. I guess it’s the male counterpoint of the Mahaney ladies’ “Girltalk” blog. Funny thing is that the ladies are constantly talking about the evils of the internet on their blog. Hmmm.
Moniker –
Well these are gospel-driven men. They can do no harm! Everyone should listen to any MAN that has “gospel” in the title of their blog. Women on the other hand, you have to watch out for them. They spread evil on the internet.
BTW — “gospel-driven discernment to sports” ?!?!? How much lower do they need to go with the use of the word gospel? Maybe the knitting group should be the “Gospel-driven knitting discerners.”
Ah, but Bridget, you know that we ordinary Christians are completely lacking in discernment when it comes to sports. We desperately need CJ Mahaney’s wisdom in order to rightly participate in and watch sporting events because our sports participation and watching are totally shot through with sin.
TW
CJ may as well turn to sports since he has mucked up church.Â
âTogether, C.J. and Chad are a father-son team seeking to bring a unique, gospel-driven discernment to sports through a weekly podcast and articles.â
“JUST LIKE ESPN, EXCEPT CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Ah, but Bridget, you know that we ordinary Christians are completely lacking in discernment when it comes to sports. We desperately need CJ Mahaneyâs (Humble) wisdom… — Moniker
All Animals are Equal
BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
— G.Orwell, Animal Farm
I have read sgmwikileaks by Brent Detwiler, former SGM quasi apostle, and have recently visited his blog to catch up. Why is it that every time I read him, I am reminded of Lt. Commander Queeg in the Caine Mutiny with the missing strawberries?
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Carolyn Mahaney used to drive around in a car with a bumper sticker that read, “I ♥ My Family”
Who does that include?
Her sister Janice & brother-in-law Roger? Ex-PDI/SGM members, who left not long after LT’s departure?
Her brother Grant Layman, pastor at CLC (who did not side with CJ) and her sister-in-law Karin?
What other choice does a woman in Carolyn’s position have? Surely she couldn’t disagree with her husband. She must submit to him. That’s what her biblical womanhood demands of her – you know, that same biblical womanhood that she’s made money off of, writing books & speaking on stage above other women at conferences? The biblical womanhood that’s allowed her to assume a role outside of the home, telling other women to stay home? The same biblical womanhood that she’s imparted to her daughter’s, fully expecting each of them to assume careers within the church, being afforded the positions by virtue of their husband’s careers as “pastors”?
Surely she wouldn’t want her daughter’s to be regular run-of-the-mill housewives like those other women in SGM! No, they must all make a career out of keeping them at home and sitting in the chairs below them while they’re on stage, or in back of them at church, or at their computer chairs reading their blog about how godly (biblical) they are as SAHMs!
Surely Grant would understand why Carolyn had to go along with everything involving the move to Kentucky. Whatever. No big deal. He’ll get over it. What’s there to be upset about? She’s just fulfilling her “role.”
Evie
There is a dark side to CJ which was apparent in the Larry Tomczak situation. Any man who is willing to do that to a long time dear friend is a man who would do that to any family member who would cross him. Just as things were not as they were presented in SGM, I can well assure you that things are not what they are being presented in the family.
Dee, I totally agree. And while not much is mentioned about Carolyn, you know she knew all about the situation involving Larry Tomzcak. And what was happening in the child abuse cases. She knew everything that was going on. In the SGMwikileaks documents, Brent Detwiler goes out of his way to emphasize Carolyn’s attitude toward him. Knowing everything that was going on, she was giving Brent the cold shoulder, and he knew, of course, that she knew everything that was going on.
She probably treated “friends” Larry & Doris the same way – with cold disregard. Nevermind that her husband had threatened them with blackmail. They had fallen short in an area where she could reign supreme: being the best mother, wife, and 1st Lady of the Church.
Nevermind that her husband never did anything to protect the children who were being abused. Those people were just more sinful, lower down on the ladder.
Nevermind that SGM pastors and their families suffered from random takeovers & degiftings. Too bad they didn’t enjoy the status and job security she did, and the sense of power she felt – knowing these people looked to her at times to plead their case – must have been thrilling.
No, she has been right there all along, in the know, supporting her superman while she was looked upon as the Biblicalwomanhood Queen, enjoying the fruit that came as a consequence of her wonderful obedience & spectacular submission to her husband.
You’re right Dee, it doesn’t take much to peel that back and find a dark underside to it all. It’s so easy to “serve” when you’re calling the shots, setting the rules, and determining who wins & loses. That is, until the Sovereign steps in, and takes charge at SG Ministries. And oh boy, thats when the trouble is just getting started. They better “Let My people go!”
First the blogs
Then the documents
Next the lawsuit
And still they remain unrepentant, claiming the opposition is the work of the devil, slanders, gossips, the internet, feminists, men in skirts, the ungospeled.
What a pity that their legacy & retirement plans had to be upset by all this nonsense. It was working out so well, having all those servants serving so hard, until those “Moses moments” started happening.
The greatness! The power! How dare they wish to leave! We shall construct a polity that demands they repay us if they do!
I don’t know much about Carolyn, but I think Carolyn knows much about everything that went on in SGM. She is not unaware and in the dark. A woman can be a powerful force behind their man.
No, she has been right there all along, in the know, supporting her superman while she was looked upon as the Biblicalwomanhood Queen, enjoying the fruit that came as a consequence of her wonderful obedience & spectacular submission to her husband. — Evie
She is not unaware and in the dark. A woman can be a powerful force behind their man. — Bridget
Like Evita behind Juan Peron, Imelda behind Ferd Marcos, and Elena behind Nicole Ceaucescu.
I understand Chinese has a term for women who marry/become mistresses of and P-whip men of power into doing their dirty work: “Corrupters of Empire”. And that Evil Empresses and their P-whipped Emperors are a staple of Asian soap-opera history.
They had fallen short in an area where she could reign supreme: being the best mother, wife, and 1st Lady of the Church. — Evie
i.e. Usurping the Romish role of The Blessed Mother, AKA St Mary?