"So every spin of the roulette wheel … you know Las Vegas … every roll of the dice in your family board game, every reaching of the hand for the scramble of the letter, is determined by God."
John Piper
A Massive Tornado – NOAA Photo Library
I am bracing myself in the wake of Hurricane Isaac… Why? Because I am concerned about how John Piper might interpret this devastating weather event. After all, in recent years Piper has attributed a bridge collapse and tornadoes to the mighty hand of God. What will John Piper say about a hurricane that hit New Orleans seven years to the day of Hurricane Katrina? Seven is a significant 'Biblical' number…
If you don't remember the I-35 West bridge collapse that occurred five years ago, here is raw footage captured by the Corp of Engineers. Sadly, in 1990 a warning was issued that such a catastrophe could possibly occur. Take a look.
How did John Piper react to this calamity that happened in the area where he lives? He wrote a blog post he called Putting My Daughter to Bed Two Hours After the Bridge Collapsed.
Here is an excerpt:
Talitha (11 years old) and Noel and I prayed earnestly for the families affected by the calamity and for the others in our city. Talitha prayed “Please don’t let anyone blame God for this but give thanks that they were saved.” When I sat on her bed and tucked her in and blessed her and sang over her a few minutes ago, I said, “You know, Talitha, that was a good prayer, because when people ‘blame’ God for something, they are angry with him, and they are saying that he has done something wrong. That’s what “blame” means: accuse somebody of wrongdoing. But you and I know that God did not do anything wrong. God always does what is wise. And you and I know that God could have held up that bridge with one hand.” Talitha said, “With his pinky.” “Yes,” I said, “with his pinky. Which means that God had a purpose for not holding up that bridge, knowing all that would happen, and he is infinitely wise in all that he wills.”
Talitha said, “Maybe he let it fall because he wanted all the people of Minneapolis to fear him.” “Yes, Talitha,” I said, “I am sure that is one of the reasons God let the bridge fall.”
John Piper signs off with these icy words: "Weeping with those who weep, and those who should. Pastor John"
Is this kind of approach toward the lost what Piper calls being 'missional'? I call it cruel. Is he trying to outdo Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" or what? He was roundly criticized for his remarks about the bridge collapse, which must have led to him giving this explanation. ( BTW, I'm not buying it!)
Three years ago a tornado hit Minneapolis. (Am I detecting a pattern here?) John Piper explained what happened in a post he called The Tornado, the Lutherans, and Homosexuality. Please take the time to read it. Piper explains:
"On a day when no severe weather was predicted or expected…a tornado forms, baffling the weather experts—most saying they’ve never seen anything like it. It happens right in the city. The city: Minneapolis… The tornado happens on a Wednesday…during the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America's national convention in the Minneapolis Convention Center…
Conclusion: The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin. Turn from the promotion of behaviors that lead to destruction. Reaffirm the great Lutheran heritage of allegiance to the truth and authority of Scripture. Turn back from distorting the grace of God into sensuality. Rejoice in the pardon of the cross of Christ and its power to transform left and right wing sinners."
Finally, earlier this year Piper chimed in about the 90 tornadoes that devastated 12 states in a post entitled: Fierce Tornadoes and the Fingers of God. Piper concluded with these words:
"Therefore, God’s will for America under his mighty hand, is that every Christian, every Jew, every Muslim, every person of every religion or non-religion, turn from sin and come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness and eternal life. Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his.
But before Jesus took any life in rural America, he gave his own on the rugged cross. Come to me, he says, to America — to the devastated and to the smugly self-sufficient. Come to me, and I will give you hope and help now, and in the resurrection, more than you have ever lost."
And this is supposed to minister to those who have lost ALL their earthly possessions and perhaps even loved ones because of a catastrophe? The more I learn about John Piper, the more I empathize with Eagle's faith struggles. There was a time when he believed John Piper.
Why am I bringing this up now? Because last weekend Bethlehem Baptist Church held a conference about Man's Sin and God's Sovereignty. It is ironic that a major hurricane struck just a few days after the conference. The Christian Post featured an article discussing the conference – John Piper on Man's Sin and God's Sovereignty.
That thought-provoking article begins with these words:
"Does God merely watch a sin taking place in the world and then "use" that for good, or are even the worst of sins predestined and designed by Him? In a weekend seminar, preacher John Piper dealt with the complex issue of God's providence.
Piper spoke about God's sovereignty during the Saturday morning session of the seminar titled "The Pleasures of God," organized by the Desiring God ministry and held at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, Minn., where he has served as pastor for over three decades.
The 66-year-old preacher underlined that God has total control over everything, quoting verses from the Bible."
I wholeheartedly disagree with John Piper's contention that God causes calamities. Forty years ago I was in a horrific car accident. I was 12 (almost 13), and the vehicle in which I was riding was struck head-on by a drunk driver. Both vehicles were traveling at approximately 60 mph. The parents of my friend were thrown through the windshield of their GMC pick-up and killed instantly. She and I were pinned in the wreckage, and it took two and a half hours for them to cut us out. My friend grew up without her parents. I do not hold God responsible for this tragedy. To believe that He either caused it or could have prevented it (and chose not to) is unfathomable for me. I have been pondering this life-altering event for four decades, and I do not hold Almighty God responsible for what happened. I believe it was the result of our sinful state. A foolish woman made a choice to drink and drive, and she alone was responsible for the deaths of two wonderful Christians, the horrible injuries sustained by my friend and me, and her own injuries (two broken legs). She was tried for two counts of manslaughter and served a prison term.
Two years after that devastating accident, John Piper's mother was killed in a bus accident in Israel. The year was 1974. It appears that tragedy has had a profound impact on him and perhaps he has had to justify in his mind that his mom was taken away because it was God's sovereignty. Sorry, I don't buy it. I believe God has foreknowledge, but I do not believe He caused / allowed that bus accident that took the life of Piper's mom.
I will conclude by affirming that I wholeheartedly believe in God's sovereignty. I have experienced divine providence time and time again, but to claim that God's sovereignty is what causes calamities is unacceptable to me (8/31/12 – I have removed the word "allowed" because a sovereign God 'permits' catastrophes).
I believe that kind of thinking is extremely detrimental to the spread of the 'gospel' (the true Gospel). What do you think? Does God send / control tornadoes, hurricanes, and other devastating circumstances?
Lydia's Corner: Genesis 44:1-45:28 Matthew 14:13-36 Psalm 18:37-50 Proverbs 4:11-13
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There must be a Pat Robertson connection in his family tree somewhere.
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Regarding devastating circumstances, I think the only response anyone should have time for is to join in helping those afflicted by such disasters. Chances are God has alread dispatched some angels to terra firma to get busy and get involved.
I’m boycotting professional christians who pontificate squares into circles, diseases into blessings, and natural disasters into just desserts.
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A few years ago, Bill Kinnon … one of the bloggers in the TWW link list … posted about the core of this problem and offered the following link, which he got from iMonk, which comes from the Francis Schaeffer Foundation website, and was written by Udo Middelmann:
http://www.theschaefferfoundation.com/footnote4_1.php
It makes sense to me that the view expressed by John Piper fits the problem that Udo Middelmann of the L’Abri community identifies in that article: This sort of “God Causes Evil and/or Refuses To Intervene.” This perspective, it seems to me, often hides under a false persona of “prophetic wisdom,” but I wonder if it in fact represents a merger with a basically fatalistic view of God as found in Islamic fundamentalism.
Half of the lengthy article at that link focuses on Mr. Middelmann’s rather stunning critique of views like those expressed by Mr. Piper. Take a look at the opening few paragraphs of that second half, and see how it might mesh with what Deb has written above …
[start clip]
2) Harmony in Theology
When life gets tough, we have all heard here and there in Christian circles one or the other of the following comments: It was the right time for her to die. God must have had something better in mind. God in his grace took him home to himself. God allowed it to happen. He made it come to pass. God must have wanted it that way.
Wait a minute! Are these comments typical for Islam or do we hear and read them in wide circles of the contemporary church? They have a ring of familiarity about them. They are the comments made in the face of what we used to consider tragedies. People comfort each other by these words!
To the extent to which we agree with these statements and find them a comfort, we have ourselves moved over from a Biblical perspective to an Islamic one. The change can be gradual and insidious, but we have redefined God for the sake of our peace, our longing to make life in a fallen world less absurd existentially. We have found a way to make the experience of brokenness acceptable: we assume that it was acceptable to God.
Worse, we have redefined God. He now becomes the one who authors good and evil. We declare our inability to understand, then turn around and suggest that he must have thought it to be good. We are no longer partners of a God who is a war with a fallen world, who grieves over death and who has pity and compassion for people caught in a horrible situation after the fall. That God has been banished by us.
[end clip]
There are aspects of some reformed theologies that I do resonate with … humanity made in God’s image, for instance, and the resulting reflective ability from His image for our great creativity and the formation of cultures. But, I find the far side of reformed theologies repugnant – the systems overfocused on the supposed sinful lock-down of the human will to the point where life glides on some sort of “biblicalized” version of determinism that is actually fatalism, accompanied by a weird sort of random formula for how bad a person’s or a country’s sins have to be before a god [not God with a capital “G”] “must” zap them. And supposedly these zaps are judgments on some particularly sinful people and warnings to all who see. (Exactly how extraordinary must the depth of depravity be before this god acts? And how does this approach NOT mean that God is the author of evil?)
Futurists are clued into hope, prayer, prophetic imagination, and discerning together a *preferable* future, not merely a “plausible” one. Methinks that with his corroded views of sovereignty, Mr. Piper steals away hope and kills any sense of sanctified imagination. Given the logical implications of his view, I think I’d prefer to continue wrestling with three paradoxes that I believe keep me BOTH human AND depending on the Triune God for discernment, wise decision-making, and empowerment to continue on the Way of Jesus:
* Destiny without determinism.
* Providence without passivity.
* Choice with consequences.
There enough complexity in those three phrases to provoke a lifetime of periodic devotional reflection on them and what they mean for me as a disciple. As best I can understand, this kind of process has little in common with the apparent anti-humanism, fatalistic-judgmentalism of Mr. Piper’s form of Reformed theology … and far more akin with Dr. Schaeffer’s Christian-humanism, creativity-inspiring version thereof.
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I don’t know if I’ve mentioned on here before, but I’m a PhD student working on flooding – natural disasters and hazards are what I do every day. And it’s things like these from Piper that drive me absolutely bonkers! I’ve sat in the homes of people whose homes were flooded in Brisbane last year, I’ve walked through the abandoned houses, the houses due to be demolished because the structures are unsound. Piper’s comments are so ignorant and offensive.
The way he characterises these disasters as completely unpredictable and almost arbitrary is completely false, too. Natural hazards are actually quite predictable and quantifiable. Sure, some are more predictable than others, some are more likely to occur ‘unexpectedly’, but they are still broadly predictable in that we know what regions are flood prone, we know which are tornado prone, we know which are hurricane prone, and so forth. It is quite rare for a completely unexpected hazard to emerge (earthquakes can be like this, the Christchurch earthquakes, for example, occurred on a previously unknown fault). As an aside, from the perspective of my own research, this sort of thinking – that these unpredictable events are warnings from God – makes planning for them harder. Once you recognise and quantify a risk, you make decisions based on that. If you see it as something you’re powerless about, then you’ll be unprepared. And believe me, those who are unprepared when a disaster strikes are much more badly affected than those who knew and prepared for the risk.
So I put this sort of stuff in the crazy bin. I can understand that people once thought like this when we really didn’t know much about hazards, risk, and disaster, but we’re pretty knowledgeable now. We don’t need superstition.
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I have trouble with a view that attributes evil to God. That being said, I also have trouble with any view that says God does not "allow" this type of thing to happen.Did God do evil in this? No. Could God have prevented it with his "pinky"? Yes. If.God did not allow it to happen then what are my options? To say that God allowed it is not to say that God directly caused it, which I moat emphatically do not think He did. There is mystery here. I do not understand it, but there is mystery. Yes, natural disasters are often preventable at least the devastation they cause. That being said,don't you think God allows people to discover things sometimes and other times does not? I simply cannot believe that Satan runs around doing whatever he wants without limit. It is just not comforting. I think it best to flee from any description like Piper"s that minimizes God's mercy, but I also think it best to flee from the suggestion that God did not allow it.
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It really disturbs me when Christian pastors make pronouncements on the causes of tragedies. And one of their favourite ’causes’ is homosexuality.
Here in South Africa, on 16 August, 34 striking miners were shot dead by police in Marikana. Pastor Errol Naidoo, of the Family Policy Institute, released a newsletter in which he blamed the massacre on ‘radical feminists’, ‘abortion-on-demand’ and the ‘homosexual agenda’.
http://www.familypolicyinstitute.com/newsitem.php?newsID=111
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Ugh, Sounds like what happened here a few years back. Pastor Danny Nalliah, of Catch the Fire Ministries, blamed the Black Saturday bushfires (173 dead, hundreds of homes destroyed) on officially legalising abortion in Victoria.
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To this simpleton, the man is mentally, or emotionally ill. How he has as many worshippers as he does, I’ll never understand! Besides the tragic death of his mother, I wonder just how many tragedies he’s actually walked through with people. I can’t fathom having him as a pastor, or a friend. An arrogant prig who thinks HE knows the mind of God? No thank you!
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There isn’t logical consistency here though. If God is Almighty then his directly causing or passively allowing terrible things to happen are the only two options available.
You either think that God allowed that car accident to occur. Or you believe that he COULD NOT have stopped it. In what sense then, would he be omnipotent or sovereign?
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Well personally it seems to me inevitable that the cause of Hurricane Irene is the wickedness of Tampa in allowing the Republicans to hold their convention there.
Arrant nonsense of course but so is trying to tie any natural disaster as the "punishment of God". And of course deeply offensive to those who suffer. And as far as I can see explicitly disallowed by Jesus himself.
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sincere observer,
It was late when I was posting, so I probably shouldn't have inserted "allows" together with "caused" in my conclusion. I have made the appropriate correction.
I did state that I believe God has foreknowledge, so in that regard He "allows" tragedy to occur. I believe it is just part of our fallen nature, not because He is trying to punish anyone or get their attention. He's after ALL of our attention.
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Eagle, Wow, you must be healing nicely because you're on a roll. Sorry to keep you up half the night by posting on this hot button issue for you. Thanks for your thorough commentaries. Why anyone listens to John Piper is beyond me…
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I have serious doubts that the conversation between Piper and Talitha went that way. I think he has embellished the story and put words in her mouth. From my calculations, she would have been about 11. Most girls I know of that age are kind, innocent, loving, assume the best about people (and God).
Does/can an 11-year old think that way? That God would cause the bridge to collapse so that people will “fear” Him? Would they pray “don’t let anyone blame God but give thanks”? I have a sweet, intelligent Christian daughter who is 10. I can’t imagine her thinking or saying those things.
If Talitha DID say those things, I’m more concerned that ever about her upbringing.
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In the words of Job – “though He slay me, yet will I serve Him.” The alternative is to believe that he is NOT in control.
I have found in my life that these matters best belong to God, that He does not owe us an explanation for tragedies. You can make yourself crazy trying to reconcile free will and sovereignty – people have tried to do this for millennia. God is not the author of sin. He created this world and there are natural disasters totally out of human control. Both believers and unbelievers die. Piper is correct in emphasizing that God knows all things and that tragedies should make people think that their time on earth is short.
You can’t go the other extreme either, and just believe that PEOPLE are in control.
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Wendy,
I believe Piper states that his daughter was 11, and I agree with your comment. It’s no telling what she’s being taught.
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It’s a good thing the Southern Baptist Convention schedules its annual meeting in June. It was held in New Orleans this year. Had it taken place in late August, would Hurricane Isaac have been God’s judgment against that denomination?
Here’s another example of arrogance regarding calamities.
http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/blog/?p=2429
“Hurricane Isaac is heading into the Gulf of Mexico and now is projected to hit the New Orleans area. This is incredibly significant and has the potential for tremendous judgment.
The hurricane is scheduled to hit the New Orleans area on Wednesday, August 29 which is the beginning of an annual homosexual event in New Orleans called “Southern Decadence.” (I do not recommend going to this website.)
Isaac, of course, is a biblical name meaning laughter.
Isaac is projected to make landfall as a category 3, which would be the same power as Hurricane Katrina. The amazing thing about Katrina was it also hit on August 29, during the week of Southern Decadence in 2005! Katrina was the greatest natural disaster ever to hit America. Now seven years later, to the day, another hurricane is heading towards this city.
The fact the events are seven years apart is very significant as this number is biblically important. It is the number of completion: God created the universe in seven days. The church, city and nation have not repented and the homosexual agenda is far worse than it was in 2005. New Orleans is still hosting Southern Decadence with open homosexuality manifesting in the streets of the city. It could be that God is putting an end to this city and its wickedness. The timing of Hurricane Isaac with Southern Decadence is a sign that God’s patience with America’s sin is coming to an end.”
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I actually think that Talitha could well have said what Piper says she did. Most kids at the age of 11 wouldn’t, but some would. I can remember having debates about politics with my friends at the age of 9 (no wonder I was a weird outsider!). I have vivid memories of watching the news when very young and remember the Berlin Wall coming down (I was five) and the Dili massacre (I was six), and my favourite TV show when I was 10 was Foreign Correspondent, a current affairs program that does in-depth stories about the political situations etc of different countries. As a said, I was weird! But I just grew up with watching the news and discussing it, it was completely normal to me. So, while Piper might have paraphrased the actual words, I can easily believe Talitha did generally express what he says she did.
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Um, should someone point out to ‘defend proclaim the faith’ that Genesis quite clearly says God created the world in six days, not seven? He rested on the seventh.
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Pam,
Yes, I noticed the same thing. Thanks for pointing out the error.
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1. Didn’t Piper also say that God made the bridge collapse because He wants John Piper (personally) to repent? Besides the fact that this comes off as monumentally self-centered, why is he talking as though he needs to be saved? Presumably he’s saved already, if he’s a nationally known pastor. So why does he see God threatening him with death, if he’s already covered by the blood of Christ and “there is no condemnation”?
2. I REALLY don’t like his phraseology about Jesus “taking lives” in Missouri.
3. All that being said – I wouldn’t be too hard on him per the ELCA tornado. It’s my understanding that that tornado came out a clear blue sky on a day with no predicted bad weather, lasted only minutes, killed/injured nobody, and ONLY did damage to the cross on the steeple of Central Lutheran. If God was going to warn someone about their course of action, that’s how I would picture Him doing it – ironically with no loss of life. Note that I’m not saying that it was absolutely God’s judgment. I just wanted to point out the HUGE difference between that tornado, and other two disasters Piper commented (inappropriately) on.
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A P.S. to what I wrote earlier. Just because it appears Mr. Piper holds to what looks like a fatalistic version of Islam, that doesn’t mean that’s where I thought he got it. There’s a similarity in underlying ways of processing information – in this case, extreme either/or thinking – that makes the surface beliefs and behaviors look so similar in all forms of religious fundamentalism.
That’s why we can hear quotes from different people [“God must have meant this to happen. It was her time to die. This is God’s judgment.”], and not always be able to tell which monotheistic religion the speaker came from, because there are fundamentalist versions in each. The same might happen if we heard quotes from the mystical versions of monotheism.
So, what leads to statements from Mr. Piper that come across as so outrageous come from a faulty epistemology that leads to a faulty set of values and theology that leads ultimately to a culture of judgmentalism. It is sad …
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GraemeMark
One can be sovereign by allowing events to take their course. The Fall occurred. Things are not what they should be or will be. We shoulder the consequences of a fallen world. My daughter had a malignant brain tumor at the age of three. I understood that this is a consequence of a world in which our very genes and cells do not function in the way that they should.
I do not believe God caused a brain tumor for my little girl. I do not believe he created a pedophile to horribly molest a group of boys. I do believe that He works in those circumstances to bring us comfort and support. I do not believe He specifically designed Hitler, Stalin, Mao with their murderous rages.
Omnipotence does not mean always using one’s power. Sovereignty can mean to allow humans to experience the consequence of a fallen world. Jesus did not use His power to call down angels to rescue Him when being tempted by Satan. Was He any less omnipotent?
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Seems to me that Piper’s daughter was smarter than her dad when she said: Please don’t let anyone blame God for this but give thanks that they were saved.” Then he goes and starts brainwashing her.
I don’t understand God’s sovereignty. the bible teaches it but it is still a mystery to me. If my God loves my sister soooo much that he died for her, why would he give her stage-4 breast cancer? Why make her suffer so? Why would he allow such horrible things to happen to little children who he adores? Like you Deb, I know he has foreknowledge, but to purposely cause these things to happen, it just doesn’t fit his character or what I believe his character to be. (remember I am still de-programming from my fundy background)
I think crap just happens because it is a fallen world. God is there for us to reach for and hold on to so we can get thru it without losing our minds. Why he doesn’t intercede, I don’t know and we will probably never know until we get to heaven.
I do get mad at God when these things happen. I tell him about it and sometimes cry and yell at him. I have learned, and Wade and all of you have helped me see this, that God loves me still and is not mad at me for acting out. He knows I have a small understanding of the big picture.
He loves us. He cries with us. He hurts with us. That is what I concentrate on and leave the mystery to him.
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Scooter’s Mom said:
“I think crap just happens because it is a fallen world.”
Yes, that’s the only way I can understand horrific circumstances. As you will see from Dee’s comment, she concurs.
I feel sorry for young, innocent children who are being brainwashed into believing that God causes calamities.
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GraemeMark,
To think God might be passive certainly is not scriptural. He created mankind with a conscience, mind, reason, and hence the ability to make choices. He does intervene from time to time when scripture records those faculties are ignored in favor of cruelty, injustice, oppression, evil, etc.
Nor is it scriptural that God causes evil, but rather it says that man’s own heart devises evil.
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:5
“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.” Matt 15:19
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It was this very crazy view of God’s Sovereignty that was the final straw for my husband and me at our former SGM church.
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On 9-11, I asked my 11 year old daughter who she thought was behind it. “Funny-Hat-Man” was her immediate (correct) answer. She wouldn’t have dreamt of blaming God for allowing OBL to live, or allowing airplanes to be invented, or for attempting to get Daddy’s attention by doing something showy.
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There seems to be no way around this. Either we must concede that God at least allows evil to happen, as in, he could have stopped it but he didn’t, or, he is incapable of stopping evil, and therefore is an impotent weakling who can’t possibly save us.
Calvinists reconcile this theodicy problem by an emphasis on God’s sovereignty. It is their primary theological category to which all others must answer. I propose that this is the wrong primary category, you should start with the cross instead.
A more rational approach is a closer examination of the nature of evil. I believe that evil is not a thing, a substance, that can be resisted or eradicated. To label evil a substance is like the prohibitionists, who thought alcohol was evil and eradicating it would be a triumph of righteousness. I propose that evil is nothing more than something good which has been corrupted. A faulty bridge was a corrupted version of a good bridge. Selfish humanity is a corruption of God’s original, good creation of mankind.
There are other problems, like Isaiah 45:7 where in the King James God pretty much says “I create evil.” According to R. C. Sproul, the word for “evil” in the OT can be as diverse as the evil of Hitler to the evil taste of broccoli, and the better translation would be for God to say “I bring calamity.” Well that softens the blow, but that is still makes God seem a bit harsh.
Here’s how I deal with that one: God does at time cause calamity, but he does not cause every single one that has ever happened. We have specific Biblical accounts of how some were caused directly by Satan instead (see Job). So how are we to know the difference? How are we to know that this tragedy was wrought by God as a judgement, or this one by Satan as a trial? It’s easy. Hath God sent a divinely inspired prophet to connect the dots? Is there a clear word from God on the subject? No? Then it should not be up to you to play the role of Elijah. Try the good Samaritan instead.
I suggest that Piper has an Elijah complex.
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I have only one word:
“IN’SHAL’LAH…”
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All I can say is whoever wrote that was more into Bible Code Numerological Calculations than Harold Camping. (And Camping was pretty high up the crazy tree.)
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“This perspective, it seems to me, often hides under a false persona of “prophetic wisdom,” but I wonder if it in fact represents a merger with a basically fatalistic view of God as found in Islamic fundamentalism. ”
BINGO!!!!! Oh how I wish more folks could see this.
I read the Udo Middleman article back then linked from Kinnon. Everyone should read it. I think Piper is very dangerous and has been a horrible cancer on Christianity. He has basically redefined God and because of his celebrity it has become ingrained in many of an entire generation of wanna be pastors. I am astounded at how many young men hang on his every word and try to emulate him. I think this will prove to be an even bigger problem in years to come.
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God says He’s not the author of evil, so that’s that. He’s not.
Job teaches that Satan cannot bring his evil upon someone without God’s permission. That settles that, for me.
If God is not to blame for what I perceive as evil, it’s not because of my perception of evil, it’s because He said so, independent of my sin-clouded spiritual vision.
God is absolutely sovereign, and He is right to do or allow whatsoever He chooses. It is only my sinful state .. and that of all mankind, methinks, that prevents me from fully comprehending that. Some day, I think we’ll see it. But not in this life.
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And again and again and again doctrine always comes down to contradictions that are mutually exclusive not paradox but impossible logical philosophical and metaphysical contradictions. We so need to be on guard against this kind of false teaching. the contradiction illustrated in this particular situation is that God causes sin but he doesn’t really cause sin. And then when you ask them to explain how this can possibly be the answer is always trust us it’s true it’s just a mystery. how on earth can we go on believing in a doctrine that makes man utterly irrelevant and makes God responsible for every single good and sinful act at the same time. If this is true then God is the author of sin and man is completely irrelevant his creation is completely meaningless. God does everything and everything means everything…every sin you commit every act you do is God doing it. This my friends is the very definition of lawlessness and apostasy.
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God gives warning to His people?
Hello,
Eagle: “There was no warning by God on the I-35 bridge collapse. There was no warning by God when Tornadoes hit Minneapolis or Indiana this spring.”
A friend was to catch a Minneapolis flight, but missed it for some reason. With that missed flight, all aboard were killed. Providence? She always thought so, as if God were saving her. She never forgot it. Neither have I forgotten the story. Why she was spared, and others were not, well, omniscience is not one of my skill sets. I am just glad He did. She has been a blessing to me, and my family.
I certainly have a lot to be thankful for.
How about you?
IronClad
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Next Piper will be making up tornadoes entirely, like Bill Gothard–
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/08/bill-gothards-tornado-that-didnt-happen/
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Brothers and sisters…I implore you. You know why you are at this blog. You KNOW something is wrong with Piper and friends and what they teach. You may not be able to put your finger on it…but somehow, you just know something is off. Of course, it’s easy to not think…just shrug and say, well, it’s all in God’s hands.
Brothers and sisters, in love I say that false humility is not an excuse to stop thinking! So let’s get out from behind our notions of false humility and utter slavishness to hypocritical reformed ideas and THINK!
Of COURSE sin is out of God’s control. Sin is a byproduct of MAN’S consciousness and ability to CHOOSE. What are we saying when we say SIN is under God’s control? God’s control is utterly perfect…God’s control then MUST mean that God IS sinning. In the case of Joseph’s brothers, what Piper is saying when he says God “meant it” is that Joseph’s brothers HAD no choice but to sin because they were being led inexorably by God to SIN. In other words, the man in the equation is removed…God’s control of MAN mean’s that man merely becomes the INSTRUMENT by which GOD does, and in this case, that does is SIN. To say the brothers had no choice but to sin means God sinned through them. Brothers and sisters…look at what this doctrine of “sovereignty” really is saying! Behind the false pleas to God’s omnipotence and our depravity, look at what it means. If God produces GOOD it is because God IS Good, thus if God PRODUCES SIN this means that we are saying God IS SIN.
SIN thus IS always in spite of God, NEVER BECAUSE of Him.
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My family lost our home as a result of flooding from Hurricane Ike four years ago and I don’t believe that it was God’s judgment on the state of life in my hometown. Hurricanes hit the Gulf Coast on a regular basis and we knew that at some point we would most likely be hit by a “big one”. Piper’s attitude is very hurtful and actually can cause people to withhold assistance. I had people tell me “well, you knew that you would get hit by a hurricane living where you did so you should be prepared to rebuild without our help”. Sorry but when you have over 4 feet of water in your one-story home, you kinda need help emptying it out and gutting it then putting everything back together again. God is not responsible for the floodwaters but He is the reason why many believers helped my family recover. One of my college professors gave us enough cat supplies to take care of our animals for a year. Another taught us a cheap trick to save our clothes that had been in the floodwater- wash them in hot water with about 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide per load (gets rid of the funky smell). Please let natural disasters and manmade disasters spur you into action to help your brothers and sisters in Christ. You can do so much right now to help those who were flooded out by Isaac. Negative judgments like Piper’s only hurt. If you would like ideas for how you can help the Isaac victims, please let me know.
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Qua??? I don’t understand John Piper at all. If God controls everything (including whether bridges collapse) then how could tornadoes be a “warning” to people who were sinning—because, under his paradigm, God is causing or allowing that sinful state in order to show his glory. Why does he need to warn people about something that He is in charge of in their lives?
I know there is probably a technical answer for this, but this is one of the many reasons why I see total predestination as having too many logical loopholes and mental gymnastics to be true. This is just silly.
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Joseph went through terrible calamity. Yet in the end he posed a question to his brothers, Am I not in the place I am suppossed to be? Yes, What God permits, He purposes.
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Argo said: “To say the brothers had no choice but to sin means God sinned through them”
AMEN!! Otherwise WE are not to blame. WE are not guilty. It’s not OUR sin. HE is accountable; not US. WE, like Adam, can blame God for our sin.
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John,
I absolutely love the story of Joseph in Genesis! My question for you is – was it God who compelled Joseph’s brothers to throw him into a pit and then sell him into slavery or did the idea originate with Satan who is always trying to tempt us to sin?
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John said: “Yes, What God permits, He purposes…”
No…God takes what man meant for evil and brings good out of it. It’s all things working together….
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By the way, regarding God’s sovereignty: Sometimes it seems that Piper (and others like him) define sovereignty as “God must exercise His power all the time, and nothing can be apart from it.”
Funny thing is, THEY are the ones who made up that definition of sovereignty. To my knowledge, the Bible never says, “If the Lord Your God were to ever allow things to happen without it being His active will, it would mean he wasn’t sovereign anymore.”
Being sovereign means you HAVE the power. It doesn’t imply how you will USE it, or whether you will allow others to use their power apart from your intervention at times.
(By the way, what does “intervention” even mean if no one ever does anything apart from God? In John Piper’s theology there should be no such thing as “divine intervention” because everything is already divinely willed.)
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Argo, BINGO on both comments.
As to natural disasters….that is because of a fallen world. A corrupt earth which God will redeem one day. But the absolute false teaching that guys like Piper perpetuate leaves man totally irresponsible for his actions. And that means those who dismiss sin as normal for those who are believers. We are to protect children, work for justice, etc. And I am not talking about a “social” Gospel. I am talking about the basics of sanctification if we really do have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
People are checking their brains at the door and believing guys like Piper. They think it sounds so pious and exhalts God to say these things. They accuse us of elevating man over God. They also hate the enlightenment and call it evil. But it is just the opposite. It communicates an insecure God who has to direct every event for us to make His way happen.
There is no room for thinking in their fatalistic determinist God paradigm except for the few anointed ones like Piper who perpetuate the lies about God.
(I love what one wag said: The Founding Fathers had John Calvin in mind when they wrote of oppression from the church/state, Divine right of kings)
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sad observer,
Great comment. I love it when people think this stuff through!
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There’s an insight I find relevant here that comes from the book *Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility* by James P. Carse.
http://www.amazon.com/Finite-Infinite-Games-Vision-Possibility/dp/0345341848/ref=la_B000AQ00SQ_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346434233&sr=1-1
He talks about how “finite games” involve extreme black-and-white thinking, and competition, and win/lose scenarios, and removing players from the game. Meanwhile, “infinite games” are about how to keep everyone in the game, about cooperation and collaboration instead of competition, of win/win scenarios where all players benefit to one degree or another.
So, what if we see difficulties and even disasters not as God causing them (which would be a “finite game” perspective) … but God doing providential twists behind the scenes to minimize the damage that would have occurred otherwise – an “infinite game” perspective. This would mean that God is not the author of evil, but takes sin and evil and natural disasters and accidents and illnesses etc., that happen and brings in a surprising and redemptive edge. An infinite game perspective looks at the same scene, same details of a disaster, but finds a very different scenario and interpretations within it.
When it comes to the evil of spiritual abuse, here’s how I think I’ve possibly seen this in action. I’ve observed where some clearly “malignant ministers” want to be the big fish in a big pond in order to expand their power and influence. What happens instead is that they’ve ended up in a small pond that sort of chokes out their ambitions or otherwise minimizes their negative, abusive impact on others (but doesn’t fully remove it) or minimizes the number of people hurt. Sometimes these abusive leaders end up completely isolated and lose almost all opportunities for ministry. These tend to be very intelligent people, but still, they sort of get stuck in their own spider-web devices. And that’s because it’s not about smarts, it’s about God overruling their abusive impact to a greater or lesser degree, and in ways that being smart or charming or manipulative cannot get them out of it because the sins have become obvious.
This pattern emerged after I watched some abusive leaders seem to flourish for a few years, others for a full decade or more, and all the while I was wondering why God didn’t just kick them out of ministry immediately, once and for all, amen. But then, I had to step back and think it through. Do I really believe that God loves that person who woefully misused a position of authority to mess over the lives of many other people? If so, then somehow His solution actually BOTH kept the abusive person in the game with the *possibility* of repentance ever before them AND also minimized the depth or breadth of damage that person could otherwise have caused. (Infinite games require both/and thinking.)
Evil exists everywhere because we are broken and sinful people, because the societies we create are flawed to greater or lesser degrees, and because Satan is a person who exists and opposes all humans and seeks to destroy us through lies. Somehow, we have to consider how God sovereignly rules over this messy situation while loving all people, despising death, and trumping evil to keep as many people as possible “in the game” in ways that ultimately are more win/win than win/lose.
It’s those provocative providential clues about how He’s doing this – mostly behind the scenes – that keeps me reflecting on the questions. Meanwhile, I believe Mr. Piper gives false answers to the same questions and causes damage to people’s heart and live.
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This hits right at the heart of what’s almost destroyed my faith since my Mum was terminally ill – as part of my grief reaction I became obsessed with this stuff & God gave me no safe place to put down my fears despite begging him. And I would love to be able to utterly write off that kind of thinking as the ravings of nutters.
But how do we know, really really know, that God is not like this & this isn’t true? So many very smart & scripturally astute people seem to buy into some version of this…How do we KNOW?
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John with respect the logical leap from “am I not in the place I’m supposed to be” to God manifests sin using people as his instruments is at best an impossible one. And you can twist semantics and use terms to soften the blow of what the doctrine is actually is saying all you want. There is in fact no difference in the metaphysical conclusion between the word “purposes” and “does”. If God ‘purposes’, what we are saying is that the thing must inevitably come to pass…there is no other option. And who is the driving force behind this inexorable outcome? Only one thing can “purpose” beyond question: God. So just be honest about what you’re saying when you say God ‘purposes’ sin: what you are saying is God commits sin. When God means for something to happen, it happens! Thus, God cannot ‘purpose’ something and then claim He is not the author of it. If you say He can, then you make Him a liar too. What I am saying is that sin CAN and DOES happen even though God does not want it too. If you say this is an affront to His sovereignty you make Him the author of evil. No one has to sin. People choose to sin and then curse God for it…which is satanic at it’s root. God’s purpose is only Himself, thus we must be free because it is impossible that God would create the infallible and sinful to achieve Himself; that is as rediculous as it is false. In other words, to say he purposes sin to that end, Himself, is blasphemy.
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I had another thought (apparently I’m on a roll)
Hurricanes and tropical depressions are part of a periodic cycle of weather patterns that repeat every year. So can we really say that it is God acting in some unbelievable way? I live in the Midwest, and we get a whole stinking LOT of tornadoes, and so when they come, I never think that it’s some unusual message coming from God.
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Much of this attributing of natural disasters and accidents and disease and such-like to God doesn’t sound a whole lot different from the language I hear in animism, attributing evil to the work of spirits. So you must somehow appease the spirits (perhaps in Mr. Piper’s case, by “being good” and “not sinning so much”?) so they stop bothering you. That is what a fear-based culture is about.
Umm … I thought that in the resurrection, Jesus Christ triumphed over Satan …
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Brad,
The way you are able to grasp concepts and then explain them always amazes me. I will be pondering your analogy for the rest of the day.
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I live in Southern California, and it’s the same thing here with earthquakes. Though there is low-grade fear of “The Big One”, the earthquake equivalent of an F5 tornado ripping through a densely-populated downtown.
Funny thing. Most Tornado Alley denizens think we’re crazy to live in Earthquake Country because “an earthquake is everywhere”. And we think they’re crazy because a tornado does a lot heavier concentrated damage.
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I think it’s a little different than that. Piper is more Calvinist than Calvin, is he not? Well, both Calvin & Mohammed had a similar take on God’s Soverignity and Predestination. Both Calvinism and Islam solve the paradox of evil by putting God beyond Good and Evil; God Wills Whatever God Wills and we call it Evil because we are just the Creatures and not the Creator. The result? A God who is Omnipotent but NOT benevolent.
Both Calvin & Mohammed took God’s Soverignity, God’s Omnipotence, and God’s Will as God’s defining attribute and firewalled it at the expense of everything else. I remember a writer informant of mine in Louisville who was involved for a while in a church that was heavily into God’s Soverignity and Predestination, and he reported the same symptoms that have plagued Islam through its history. Passivity, Fatalism, Despair, no brake on authority (“God Hath Willed It!”), and an excuse machine (“Not My Fault! God Willed It!”). So I conclude that these are side effects of Extreme Predestination beliefs.
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Don’t forget one step beyon “appeasing the spirits”:
“Imprecatory Prayer(TM)” where you call upon God to destroy your enemies. Just like a Karcist calling upon spirits to put a curse on someone. How does that differ from Magick with a “k”?
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Beakerj,
I know because the Holy Spirit tells me so…
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Because He, JOHN PIPER, is SOOOOO IMPORTANT God collapsed the bridge (or that tower in Siloam) and killed all those people just to send Mr Important a message?
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“But how do we know, really really know, that God is not like this & this isn’t true? So many very smart & scripturally astute people seem to buy into some version of this…How do we KNOW?”
There are obvious examples such as He did not strike Ted Bundy with lightening. Then we have examples in the narratives of how long suffering and patient God is. His attributes. ALL of them. Not just this twisted idea of His Sovereignty as the insecure puppet master.
But the MOST important is Jesus the REAL Christ. HE is/was God. He is our example of God in the flesh. I think the mistake many make is to forget that Jesus the Christ was/is God. His words/actions were preserved, written down for us. If you want to know what God is like, look to Jesus the Christ. Does Jesus Christ look or sound like the Reformed version of the Determinist fatalistic God, a la, Piper and many others?
The REAL question is why do they buy into this Determinist fatalistic God? Why is Islam growing? Mormonism?
Is it to get man off the hook for sin?
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HUG,
And here on the East Coast, we sometimes get bombarded by hurricanes. The last decade hasn’t been that bad, but we’ve definitely had our share of them. Back in 1996 Hurricane Fran came through Raleigh, and our city looked like a war zone because there was so much damage from fallen trees.
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Here’s the issue I have with people saying God is utterly sovereign (defined as predestination of every single detail, including all Evil). That means that he himself has planned and carried out every last gory detail of every single bloody crime against a human being that has ever occurred, and the man/woman who actually committed the crime was only his weapon of choice. Many of these crimes are ones that, if written out in detail, many of us “Totally Depraved” human beings would not even be able to stomach reading. Let alone planning and carrying out. It doesn’t make sense that a holy God can do what even the majority of us sinners can’t. And then eternally torture the human he used to carry out the evil.
These people make the devil out to be an ugly extension of God, not his enemy. I have a problem with that.
But a God who takes that which is damaged, corrupted, darkened by Satan’s victories in a fallen world and makes them beautiful – that is a God I can love.
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Our family has suffered some terrible tragedies, and been spared so many more, so far.
My take is multifold:
There may be instances where God knows the greater good will be accomplished by sending what from human perspective is a great tragedy. We grieve, but still God is good in doing so.
There may be other instances where He chooses not to prevent a tragedy that is caused by sin, by living in a fallen world, or by something as simple as a corroded bolt. I live trusting He knew before it happened and saw the greatest good would be served by allowing the tragedy.
I also believe there are times He does not intervene because He usually allows the consequences of our actions. It may be an action as simple as great grandpa choosing to build on a site that will be hit by a tornado 150 years hence. In those times, I believe He comforts and walks with us.
So whatever the situation, sent by God, allowed by God with a purpose, or simply allowed by God I trust His hand to hold me and Him to be with me through it.
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Deb – I wonder… my take on what Joseph’s brothers did to him is that it originated in their intense jealousy and anger, which had been fermenting away for a long time.
It’s interesting to me that not all of them were for throwing him in the pit, at least initially. There are some fine nuances in the story.
at any rate, I truly believe that what they did to him came from within, not from suggestions by the devil. (And at any rate, the NT understanding of Satan is quite different than that of the OT writers, as a whole.)
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If you believe, as it appears that Jesus taught, that praying will result in a different outcome, then you cannot believe as Piper teaches, because he teaches that everything that happens is in accord with the PLAN. No variation, no change.
If you believe that God listens to prayer and things happen differently, the Calvinistas will call you an Open Theist, which they believe is a nicer term for “heretic”.
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Anon 1 @ 2:49pm –
I agree!!!
I am soooo thankful for God who perfectly combines his many, and varied, awesome attributes! If one were to bathe the rest, I would think it is his perfect love. This was displayed in Jesus life, death, and resurrection to redeem the world. It is seen when Jesus taught us to pray “OUR FATHER . . . ” (Not our “sovereign being” or our “holy majesty”) We see it again when Jesus tells us that the greatest commandments are to love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. Why do men look other places, besides at Jesus, to know what God is like and how he might act?
I don’t understand this choosing of one or two attributes of God and making God into that attribute. As we can see, we are left with a warped god at best.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy on Fri Aug 31, 2012 at 02:40 PM said: Mr. Piper is “more Calvinist than Calvin.”
Made me think of the Tyrell Corporation slogan, “More human than human.” Chilling thought, that …
@ Eagle Fri Aug 31, 2012 at 03:12 PM said: “Often times what John Piper is doing is using the sovereignty of God to shut people up.”
That makes me think that playing “the God card” isn’t all that much different from playing “the Bible card” (e.g., “It’s clearly and obviously and undeniably biblical that …) or “the gospel card.”
I wonder where the dividing lines are between stating something reasonable and true about what God seems to be doing, versus usurping authority by claiming to know what God is doing. I think those boundaries are in play here.
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@ Jan on Fri Aug 31, 2012 at 02:22 PM.
Somehow I guess I’ve learned to wrap abstract concepts into concrete images and objects to come up with analogies that help me remember them both. Seems like metaphors and analogies actually do help in learning and retaining! If only I could’ve “gotten that” big time during high school English lit courses where we talked about similes and metaphors all the time … ah well. Better to have learned how to learn, than not.
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Argo –
What do you think the “totally depraved” brethren do with the commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself?” It appears one has to KNOW how to love ones self before he can properly love his neighbor. Does that mean we can apply the “love is” verses to ourselves? Or is that selfish and sinful? All people don’t naturally love themselves.
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Hester – yes, Piper *did* claim the “because of my sin” bit in his post on it.
Which is, as you’ve said, incredibly self-centered and (imo) unbelievably insensitive, not to mention communicating a view of God that disgusts me.
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Arce
Human beings have a binary way of looking at life. If I do “X” and don’t do “y” I am not doing what God wants me to do. But could God be bigger? Could both “x” and “y” be within His will? But an omnipotent, omnipresent and all knowing God could allow a number of events to occur, all being within His will? We do not give God flexibility. But an infinite God could be infinitely flexible.
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I believe that the principal characteristic of God is love. And he loves us not as a benevolent dictator, but like the best father we could possibly imagine, who paid a great price to adopt us (not that it is cheap here!), and so lovingly tries to move us to loving him and out of that love to serve him as we would the best of fathers/mothers!
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Arce
What is the deal with these preachers? Love has become a four letter word. It appears they like the “damnation” word a whole lot better.
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@ Deb: then why doesn’t he tell me? Why didn’t he tell me in the worst moments of my life?
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um… Hurricane Irene did a TON of damage to the East Coast last year, mostly well north of the Mason-Dixon Line.
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We’ve certainly touched some issues here today/tonight (if you’re on the east side of the Atlantic…)
Thanks for the link to the Udo Middelmann article. It is worth noting as I pointed out in another thread that although he was from a Reformed background himself, Francis Schaeffer (with whom Middelmann was associated) was against determinism in any form, whether in the form of biochemical determinism or theological determinism.
Eagle quite rightly raises the passage of Luke 13, which C S Lewis also picked up on in his essay on “Historicism” (essentially, a rebuke to people who claim to be able to read the meaning of history in some deep metaphysical way). Lewis also pointed out that the lessons of Job and even of Isaiah’s Suffering Servant suggested that people were bad at reading “signs of the times”.
I think in the OT God did speak of himself as working disaster, but in a certain context, either as an act of judgement on certain nations or individuals (and even then He gave plenty of warning, usually via the prophets) or as a corrective measure to Israel (as He had indeed warned He would back in the Pentateuch). Paul also says in 1 Cor 10 that some of the punishments and tribulations of the Exodus were recorded for our benefit (ie of the church). I think *some* element of God’s judgement must be taken into account, but I do not think that any person can point to an event in this post-NT period and claim it to be “God’s judgement”, because to do so is to place oneself in the seat of God and claim a knowledge which probably no human can ever have in this life. One could point to the ruins of Berlin in 1945 and say “God’s judgement”, and maybe so, but I think it is also the case that God has ordained the universe so that those who indulge in such extreme wickedness bring disaster on their own heads. In a way Hitler is an obvious example – anyone who goes around invading other countries and committing genocide on a grand scale is almost certain to unite the whole world against him and end up being destroyed. Yet in some way perhaps such events also work the judgement of God. A prison sentence justly earned is the sentence of society for offending its rules, but in some cases it is also seen as a form of higher justice, and in some cases (as with Chuck Colson) it can have a redemptive effect and lead to someone being used for the Kingdom of God.
About natural disasters one has to be careful. It is true that they can bring out the best in people (but also sometimes the worst), but we shouldn’t welcome them just for that reason. I don’t know why mass extinctions occurred in prehistory (being a sentimental old herpetologist that I am), but it is said that without the decline of the dinosaurs, humans could never have appeared. Again, Lewis (quoted by Schaeffer in his book on Genesis) suggested that in some mysterious way Satan might have some power, albeit not independent, to interfere with nature, but this enters the realm of speculation, however plausible.
And of course a lot of suffering is caused by human sin, weakness or ignorance, whether drink-driving, desertification or destruction on a massive scale. I think it is wrong to say that God is the author of evil especially if there is clearly a human cause. Plus the dangers of saying that “God willed it” are fatalism or justifying what was essentially a human fault or failure.
Thanks for listening, and feel free to disagree.
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Linda,
I share your view.
I would rather trust a God I do not understand, but who I believe has total control of everything than understand a God who does not hold everything in his hand.
But whether God “causes” or whether he “allows”, hmmm…. I understand the debate about that.
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In the bible, God caused clamities but everyone knew that it was God’s judgment. How come Piper is the only one who knows that this is God’s “judgment.” It’s pretty arrogant of Piper to assume that he knows the mind of God and what He’s up to. Being that we live in a fallen world, all kinds of calamities happen. You would think that he would understand that. Oh wait, he has a special connection to God.
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Because God has Piper on speed-dial. Piper has the direct pipeline of Sekrit Speshul Knowledge (“Occult Gnosis” in Greek).
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After the inflight fight with the Mackinistas who want to aim for Microsoft HQ or Bill Gates’s mansion — “MAC IS THE SUPERIOR SYSTEM! APPLE AKBAR! APPLE AKBAR!”
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OK. Here’s something I encountered last year.
About a year ago, a My Little Pony fanfic titled Past Sins connected with me on a deep emotional level. (Yeah. Colorful cartoon ponies. Weirder things have happened.) The story is about a “Reluctant Antichrist”; what happens when a prophesied Antichrist figure is summoned by a diabolical cult and comes, but doesn’t want to be the Antichrist or end the world? She just wants to live a life?
Later in the Brony (Pony fandom) community, I met the author, a college student who writes under the pen name of Pen Stroke. In both podcasts and in-person, he said the reason he wrote the story was to Redeem the major villain/Antichrist figure of the initial pilot two-parter (whose coming will End the World in Eternal Night). And he did it by having said villain/Antichrist figure “born again” in a way. And a climax that brought to mind the Baptismal Promises I recite every Easter Vigil mass — “Do you reject Satan? And all his works? And all his empty promises? Do you reject the glamour of Evil?”
All I can say is while all these preacher-men are so quick to damn to Eternal Hell, a 22-year-old lapsed Lutheran wrote a decent 800-page novel to redeem the Antichrist figure of the ponies’ world. Their Antichrist!
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Yeah. On the day a disembodied hand appears and writes “YOU HAVE BEEN WEIGHED IN THE BALANCE AND FOUND WANTING” on the side of Yankee Stadium in front of everybody, I will believe someone telling me that God is directly causing something. Until then, not.
When C.S. Lewis’s wife died he recorded his experiences in A Grief Observed. (I liked his approach to this. He had a notebook and he wrote his feelings in it, with the idea that when he’d filled it up he would stop. The point was to let his grief happen but not take over his life forever.)
He likened our trying to understand these things with a cat being taken to the vet. When you take your cat to the vet, the cat can’t distinguish between a vet and a vivisectionist. From the cat’s point of view, you delivered it over to a stranger who hurt it. And if you tried for a million years you could never explain to your cat what you are doing. So you have to do what you have to do for your cat, and hope that its love and trust can overcome the fear and resentment for what you did.
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@ Laura:
“On the day a disembodied hand appears and writes ‘YOU HAVE BEEN WEIGHED IN THE BALANCE AND FOUND WANTING’ on the side of Yankee Stadium in front of everybody, I will believe someone telling me that God is directly causing something. Until then, not.”
I just can’t help myself – surely you aren’t implying that God is a Red Sox fan? ; ) Don’t worry, being a baseball agnostic, I won’t kill you if you think He is.
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Hester, I was just trying to think of something big and obvious! “… the side of the White House” has the wrong cadence.
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“Because God has Piper on speed-dial,” LOL,LOL
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Let us be careful finding fault with Jonathan Edwards. He does have a remarkable legacy.
“Today, March 22, marks the anniversary of his death. The genuineness of Sarah Edwards’ devotion to God is seen in a letter to daughter, Susannah, immediately following Jonathan’s untimely death: “What shall I say? A holy and good God has covered us with a dark cloud. . . . The Lord has done it. He has made me adore His goodness, that we had [Jonathan] so long. But my God lives; and He has my heart.”[4]
The legacy left by the Edwards family demonstrates the effect of a gospel-centered home. Over four hundred descendants of Jonathan and Sarah Edwards have been traced. Of these, FOURTEEN became college presidents, roughly ONE HUNDRED became professors, another ONE HUNDRED ministers, and about the SAME NUMBER became lawyers or judges. Nearly SIXTY became doctors, and OTHERS were authors or editors. The Edwards family pictures Proverbs 22:6: “Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”” Alvin Reid
He must have been pleasing to the Lord.
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JJ – about Errol Naidoo:
I wrote a piece on my Afrikaans blog, in which I say his blaming gays for Marikana is false testimony. (His argument is that they create a culture of death by not procreating. In that case single missionaries, the apostle Paul and even Jesus himself created a culture of death!)
His pet topic is to blame feminism for everything – including abortion and apparently homosexuality. I once wrote him a friendly letter, citing the dictionary definition of feminism (1- the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes; 2- organized activity on behalf of women’s rights and interests) and equired about how his opposition to feminism seem to contradict other things he say. He replied that he does not use the dictionary definition of the word feminist.
If you do not use the dictionary definition of a word, you have no business using the word:
>I swim better than Phelps. (But I do not use the dictionary definition of swim)
>Errol Naidoo is a murderer (But I do not use the dictionary definition of murderer.)
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Big deal! Edwards and his wife had children! And those children did stuff when they grew up! What the heck does that have to do with a “gospel-centered home”? When did we start measuring the gospel by the career choices of children? What if that quote above read like this:
“The legacy left by the Edwards family demonstrates the effect of a gospel-centered home. Over four hundred descendants of Jonathan and Sarah Edwards have been traced. Of these, FOURTEEN became college janitors, roughly ONE HUNDRED became butchers, another ONE HUNDRED stay-at-home parents, and about the SAME NUMBER became police officers or UPS drivers. Nearly SIXTY became CNAs, and OTHERS were clerks or child minders. The Edwards family pictures Proverbs 22:6: “Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”” Alvin Reid
He must have been pleasing to the Lord.”
Professors and Lawyers and Doctors, Oh my! How successful!
That is gospel-snobbery!
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Jimmy, Great point about Edwards. One of them was Aaron Burr a notorious adulterer and seducer of women but famous for his duel with Hamilton. Another I read about recently was a woman descendent ordained by the Presbyterian church as a minister. :o) (Some of those academic descendents became Unitarians which is where a lot of the Puritan descendents ended up, too. Wonder why)
Read Marsden’s bio of Edwards and the gruesome suicides that happened with those who were being discipled by Edwards after claiming to be Born Again. Weird stuff the Reformers never talk about. Kinda like the evil stuff they ignore about Calvin.
Just sayin’ it ain’t all roses. We need to always present both sides of history.
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Sounds like Jonathan Edwards’ descendants cover the whole class spectrum from top to bottom.
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“never” would be a strong word, Anon 1. If that “never” were true then we’d never see people in the 21st century defending the views of R. L. Dabney, now would we? 😉
One and the same group can be heroic in one setting and villainous in another. American Indians can look at how Catholics and Protestants dealt with them and consider that detestable (because it was, for the most part). The Orthodox missionaries were way nicer. But then if we looked at how the Orthodox dealt with the Poles … they don’t come off so sweetly.
In a setting like the UK where the Anglican church had some controversies and issues the Puritans could play a significant role. Even J. I. Packer has said that the most important thing about the Puritan legacy in England was they failed to pull off even a single one of the reforms they went for. That was good for them. Arguably the Puritan legacy in America may have spiraled into weirdness because whereas in England they pretty much failed (at least according to Packer) in the U.S. they had a lot of success. And for folks who read the Bible there’s nothing that makes a heart rotten quite like success and comfort.
I may be a Calvinist and all but there’s no way I’m going to endorse postmillenialism just because some people think Edwards was cool. It’s still amillenial partial preterism for me. On the other hand John Edwards could read Song of Songs and find something in there besides oral sex and wifely stripteases so in that respect the neo-Calvinists could learn from that example. I have a particular new Calvinist in mind, of course.
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WTH, To make it even worse, the Step children of the Reformation who refused to bow a knee to Caesar’s state church and believed in freedom of worship, believers baptism and disdained sacraments as a means of grace which led to thier horrible persecuted by the Reformers THEN came to North America where many became seperatists. Some are even wearing funny hats and long dresses today.
What we do with our freedom says a lot, eh?
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Retha
Good on you for challenging Errol Naidoo on those views! He’s shown that he doesn’t want to engage with reason or fact and will stick with whatever supports his own agenda. Makes me think of Doug Wilson’s made-up definitions of the words ‘colonize’ and ‘conquer’…
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“Deb – I wonder… my take on what Joseph’s brothers did to him is that it originated in their intense jealousy and anger, which had been fermenting away for a long time.”
Numo, You know what bugs me? That most SS teachers/pastors will not say that Jacob sinned by showing favoritism to Joseph. They take as correct doctrine that favoritism was from God and the right thing to do because he was Joseph!. He did sin by showing favoritism to him. He sowed discord in his children and they responded in sin. And Laban started it all with his sinful deception! Sin is a nasty thing…infectious.
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My opinion of Piper has definitely taken a plunge in the past couple years, and this site has provided some of the info which has led to it. When he deigns to tell us exactly why God caused/allowed a disaster to occur, he has dropped to the Pat Robertson level. And there are other ridiculous (or worse) things Piper has said and done, esp. in recent years.
HSAT, there is something I think we should be wary of: Deciding what God is willing to do or capable of doing based on our ways of seeing, and feeling, things. (Piper himself does this too much.) This comes naturally to us: We are very familiar with our own ways of thinking and feeling, and are therefore inclined to make decisions based on them. We may make some concessions to the difficult parts of Scripture, but, in the end, return to our familiar positions, particularly when strong emotions are involved.
deb, I’ve been in accidents, but never in one as horrific as the one you have described. I can only try to imagine what it, and the long-term effects, have been like. As far as God possibly causing it, I think we’re in the dark. But you also wrote that “to believe [God] could have prevented it (and chose not to) is unfathomable for me.” I can understand that. Hell is unfathomable to *me*. But it seems to me that there is enough evidence in Scripture to back up what seems unfathomable to us in these cases.
If God is genuinely omniscient and omnipotent, He’s aware of everything that could be prevented and He is capable of preventing it. That includes everything from slipping on a banana peel to the Holocaust. Can we reconcile this to Scripture’s declaration that God is love? Maybe, maybe not. But I believe that Scripture has to have the final word, whether or not we’re comfortable with it. Of course, we can try to stretch or change the meanings of words that distress us, but that could be perilous.
I’m aware that some parts of Scripture are not as clear as others. But when the Bible speaks clearly, I think that, as believers, we must heed it over our own beliefs. And realize that God can be good in ways that we don’t necessarily associate with being good. His ways are not ours, but I don’t think they are beyond reason.
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Deb: sorry, I didn’t mean to be so blunt really, or snap at you.
I think I’m a good example of how certain forms of Calvinism mess with your head – it’s all about the hiddenness of things. I can see what Jesus is like, on the surface, but I have no confidence in the surface anymore because there’s a gargantuan other world of what God is ‘really’ doing in the universe…it’s like an iceberg, the top looks white, but the hidden major part is black & terrifying. Brad was talking about epistemology & that’s where the buck has stopped for me, my confidence in language used in the bible has been shattered by Calvinism. Especially with the words ‘love’ & ‘goodness’. How can those words be said to have anything approximating what us humans would normally use those words to mean if God is happily damning people for his glory behind the scenes. All my confidence in what those words meant was like a handful of confetti thrown into the night sky in the face of death.
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I want to bring up the concept of American exceptionalism – the idea that the US somehow attracts the special attention of God. I want to know why God is not sending disasters on Syria, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or a whole load of other oppressive regimes. Why do other countries get away with evil, but America can’t step out of line without being punished? Perhaps Piper can tell me that…
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Beakerj, I hear you. What I come back to is the things that I *know* are real, bedrock truth about right and wrong. It’s right for parents to love and care for their children. I *know* this. It’s wrong to take things you want when they belong to somebody else. It’s wrong to hurt other people for no good reason. It’s right to be kind to animals. Knowledge of these things is such a universal truth among humans that when we don’t act this way we know we’ve left the path, and when we find someone who doesn’t agree with them we know there’s something actually wrong with that person. This knowledge of goodness is so strong and so universal in us it is part of our nature, and the only way that is possible is that God put it there. We’re the image of him. Not because he has two arms and two legs and five fingers on each hand – that part is an accident of evolution – but our hearts and spirits. And that tells us what he is like.
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” After the inflight fight with the Mackinistas who want to aim for Microsoft HQ or Bill Gates’s mansion — “MAC IS THE SUPERIOR SYSTEM! APPLE AKBAR! APPLE AKBAR!” ”
Umm … HUG … you say that like that would be a bad thing. Don’t you know? Windows IS the virus.
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I noticed a tweet from Piper yesterday Aug 31 and it bothered me:
“Be done with sentimental views of the love of God. “Behold, I am watching over them for disaster, not for good.” Jer. 44:27″
Reading chapter 44 as a whole, one sees what is taking place. Judgement for Israel’s covenant breaking, idolatry and disregard for God.
But to say “Be done” is confusing. There is no balance offered in this tweet–only a be done. Does he mean for us to quit (entirely) any thoughts that God is sentimental towards us? Tweets like this, imo, so stark and limited and “be done-ish”, do nothing to encourage Christians but do much to make them uneasy and fearful. Aren’t Christians the ones reading his tweets???!! Sp believers should not view their loving Father in heaven as sentimental? How does this comfort anyone? I know God has many attributes. Justice, wrath holiness, compassion, mercy, love. Why should I BE DONE (he proclaimed) with any thinking along the lines of sentimentality? I reject that.
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I see no gospel, no “good news”, in that tweet at all. Wow.
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Yes, that’s the danger of taking one verse out of context and withholding commentary to explain the circumstances surrounding the passage. 🙁 Surely he knows better.
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Dear Eagle,
Your comment ends up with: “If that’s Christianity I have something I’d like to say….
To hell with it. To hell with Jesus, God, and faith. To hell with John Piper. I am not going to part of a faith system that is so sick. Nor will I be involved in such a perverse system. No agnosticism and atheism is robust, healthy and a healthy alternative to Christianity. At least as an agnostic I can show more love and grace than one can in Christianity.”
Eagle, apparently, you do not know the TRUE CHRISTIANITY. True Christianity is Christ, who is altogether lovely. It’s not a religion but a personal, intimate relationship with the Son of God Jesus Christ. To know Christ, not about Christ, is the most important thing.
There are many learned men, women who study, teach, preach, write about Christianity but they may be unlearned Christians. May you know the Christ of God and the beauty of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s my prayer to you.
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I meant “that’s my prayer for you, Eagle.”
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I like this comment from sad observer:
“Being sovereign means you HAVE the power. It doesn’t imply how you will USE it, or whether you will allow others to use their power apart from your intervention at times.”
In the universe, there are God, good angels, Satan and his demons, sin, fallen men and women, fallen creation (tainted by the fall of Adam) and what we experience may have to do with any or all of these; so, it’s not simple as it seems. Dr. john Piper is extreme in his interpretation of calamity and as I said before, I do not like the extremes of anything.
In the US history, there was a man who said “extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.” This man lost the election that year! You know whom I am talking about.
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Ian, you wrote: “I want to bring up the concept of American exceptionalism – the idea that the US somehow attracts the special attention of God….”
As an American, I can say that some Americans have a sense of destiny when it comes to the USA, our country. I respect this view. It can be also American pride. To me, Americans, like anyone else in the world, are sinners and in need of God’s grace and “much is given, much is required.” The nations so blessed like the US, UK, Australia, France, Germany… have to help lifting others up. What do you think?
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When we talk about nations and destiny, I have to remind myself of the words of Romans 3, “all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Has there ever been a nation on earth which did not do things as a nation that was at one time or another deserving of God’s condemnation?
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Re Jonathan Edwards, as someone said, we should present a balanced picture. Edwards was a redeemed sinner – so was C S Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, John Calvin, Martin Luther, St Augustine. We can find much to respect and help us in their lives and writings, but equally they could not have had the whole truth simply because they were human, and we should not place them on a pedestal.
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@ Ian,
Clint Eastwood can tell you all you need to know about American exceptionalism.
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As for John Piper’s tweet, perhaps this illustrates the danger of theology by tweeting? 🙂
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@ Laura- thanks for that, I too ‘feel’ that way, which is why Calvinism’s double-speak bothers me, but I have learnt not to trust myself via teachings about my depravity, it’s like being pre-innoculated…I’m just at a low right now about which sources of knowledge are trustworthy – my feelings, Biblical words, other people’s thoughts…everything seems too shaky to bear the weight of infinity & eternity. I need rebooting.
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P.S. Roger Olsen is also discussing this & between here & there I do feel more hopeful 🙂
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Wow, Piper is obsessed over God’s wrath. The tweet is disturbing.
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Stormy, Piper is obsessed with being a shock jock. It is how he gets attention and keeps his name out there.
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I’ve almost come to the opinion that politicans and ministers should never tweet!
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Kolya –
I second that motion! If we could only bring the hammer down and end the nonesense now 🙁
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@ Bridget, Kolya~
Third.
@Anon 1~
“Piper is obsessed with being a shock jock. It is how he gets attention and keeps his name out there.”
And since, according to him, we are to “be done” (extinguish, terminate, cease) with our sentimental views of how God loves, I shudder to think of the reality that just might lurk behind all the passion for God and enjoying God talk of which he speaks and writes.
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“Let us be careful finding fault with Jonathan Edwards. … The legacy left by the Edwards family demonstrates the effect of a gospel-centered home. Over four hundred descendants of Jonathan and Sarah Edwards have been traced. Of these, FOURTEEN became college presidents, roughly ONE HUNDRED became professors, another ONE HUNDRED ministers, and about the SAME NUMBER became lawyers or judges. Nearly SIXTY became doctors, and OTHERS were authors or editors. The Edwards family pictures Proverbs 22:6: ‘Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it.’ Alvin Reid
He must have been pleasing to the Lord.”
Except any large well-to-do family in 18th century America, if traced forward to today, would probably have produced similar statistics – think of what we would see if we looked at the descendants of any given president. Ministers, lawyers, judges and doctors were all “learned” professions that tended to be filled by those in a certain class. I’m open to acknowledging that the Edwards family may have been particularly talented, but I see no reason to ascribe this to great-great-grandpa Jonathan’s having been a sincere Christian.
Also, what does this then mean for those “gospel-centered” homes/families who do not achieve this level of success? Are they somehow NOT “pleasing to the Lord,” and God lets us know by keeping them butchers instead of making them doctors? That’s health-and-wealth/prosperity gospel thinking. We might as well paste on Joel Osteen’s oh-so-shiny big white saccharine smile.
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Yup – God had so little “sentimental love” for Israel that He sent Jesus down here to save, not just them, but the Gentiles too. And when they spurned Him yet again, He still didn’t blast them off the face of the planet (which He had every right to do after having them spit in His face how many times?). Evidently those verses about God being patient and slow to anger are actually TRUE.
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“I shudder to think of the reality that just might lurk behind all the passion for God and enjoying God talk of which he speaks and writes.”
When Piper does it, it is ok. All the passion and sentimentality is not that when he says it is not that. It is that simple. They make the rules so they always win.
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Anon 1 – I don’t think *any* of the patriarchs come off particularly well in the Genesis stories. All had obvious flaws and those are related pretty bluntly.
Agreed that nobody takes Jacob to task, at least not in the circles I used to be in, but then, they rarely talk about what Jacob did to disinherit Esau, either…
Hester – *totally* agreed on the whole “descendants of prominent families in early New England.” I don’t think there’s anything exceptional about Edwards’ family line per se, except perhaps that many of them were well-off enough to be able to afford costly educations. Am not saying this to belittle anyone’s achievements, but it would be more than possible to do the same kind of lineage-tracing in the mid-Atlantic states, VA, etc.
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Ian – totally agree re. your comment on American exceptionalism. We have very inflated ideas about our importance, imo – but then, so did the British, pre-WWII and Indian independence.
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Ian (pt. 2) – for some reason, British israelitism just popped into my head.
There are some of them in the US (US born and bred), believe it or not.
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Beakerj, you said:
“This hits right at the heart of what’s almost destroyed my faith since my Mum was terminally ill – as part of my grief reaction I became obsessed with this stuff & God gave me no safe place to put down my fears despite begging him. And I would love to be able to utterly write off that kind of thinking as the ravings of nutters.
But how do we know, really really know, that God is not like this & this isn’t true? So many very smart & scripturally astute people seem to buy into some version of this…How do we KNOW?”
and in response to Deb saying the Holy Spirit tells her so, you asked why he hasn’t told you, and then later you said…
“I have learnt not to trust myself via teachings about my depravity, it’s like being pre-innoculated…I’m just at a low right now about which sources of knowledge are trustworthy – my feelings, Biblical words, other people’s thoughts…everything seems too shaky to bear the weight of infinity & eternity. I need rebooting.”
Your frustations – to me, at least, as I read them – speak of a work of God’s Spirit in you. I recognize in your words the work he has been doing in me. It sounds to me like he IS speaking to you and trying to show you that he is love, or you wouldn’t be wrestling with these things.
These men, who tell us these sorts of things, and make us feel we are worthless to this punishing angry God, instill in us a fear that drives away love. But God IS love. And his love is the kind that drives away fear.
You wonder how we can really know that God is love when the “experts” so often come to a conclusion that causes us to doubt it? Well, I think if we can learn anything from the life of Jesus, it’s clear that the experts, those who make a living on the study and teaching of Scripture, don’t often get it right. But the Holy Spirit always does. I believe that he loves our honest questions and isn’t half so offended by them as the professional theologians are. I think he’s more offended by those who claim not to have any questions. I think he loves to guide us through our questions and doubts and fears, and that they are an opportunity for us to know him more intimately.
Also, I am not exactly sure what you mean by a “safe place to put down your fears,” but I found something similar to this when I journaled my way through Hebrews 3 and 4 and meditated on that passage for several weeks. With the understanding that the “sabbath rest” spoken of is not Sunday, but a state of existence which he calls us to join him in. And who do we enjoy the pleasures of rest and leisure with but those we are most comfortable and intimate with? That is when I realized that God really does love me. That is what finally made me fall in love with him – after two child losses during my ten years as a hardcore Calvinist who couldn’t even bring myself to pray to him. (I believe it was the Holy Spirit who led me to this passage, after pulling the lid off my questions by wrecking my young-earth-creation assumptions… but that is another story.) 😉
Hope this helps. You sound like you needed some encouragement.
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@ Numo:
It’s amazing how much the generational blessings/curses thinking is ingrained in some American evangelical circles. Case in point: I do genealogy and my family busts a lot of myths. Most everybody lives to be at least 70, the women are all at least literate by 1850 (unlike the men), and there are multiple generations with 8+ children who all survive to adulthood. I did a presentation on “genealogical mythbusting” for our homeschool group once and one woman asked me, in all sincerity, if someone way back in my family had been a Christian and “prayed down” generational blessings on my family. Because the myths/stereotypes of an automatic 45-year lifespan, illiterate women, and every family losing 5+ children to curable diseases couldn’t possibly be wrong or overstated. The ONLY explanation is direct intervention by the hand of God Himself.
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Hester – i know whereof you speak re. the “generational sin” stuff, believe me
and i’m heartily glad that i no longer hear anything about it!
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On genealogy and blessings and so forth, I think my maternal grandfather’s family puts paid to all of that. There’s doctors, lawyers, engineers. academics, and even a concert violinist. All descended from an Irish convict sent out to Australia for the crime of blasphemy. Surely if anyone’s descendents should be cursed, it should be the man guilty of blasphemy (who then opened up an illegal bar when he got here)?
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I think in Ezekiel (18?) God specifically rebukes Israel for this sort of thinking, saying that a person dies for their own sin, not for that of their fathers. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong).
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Is this “generational blessing” thing perhaps related to Doug Phillips’ 200 year plans?
(BTW, I once attended a course – it’s from an American organization, but presented in my own country – called the “Ancient paths seminar” in which they also said you should break curses that come from your parents; you should bless your children; and they used that Jonathan Edwards story, plus the name of a criminal who had a lot of prostitutes and criminals as descendants.
The approach was gendered too – they said that if X happens to a boy, it affects him this way, if the same happens to a girl, it affects her that way, and they said that about a lot of things.)
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Retha –
That generational stuff is weird. It can be taken to the point of no return – as in mystics and curses. If all that is necessay then what, pray tell, did our Lord and brother die for, certainly not for us to be in bondage to curses and the “propet” blessings. That is some “other” gospel than Christ!
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@ Kolya:
Yes, you are exactly right – Ezekiel 18. The whole chapter is a pretty pointed refutation of generational blessings and curses.
“The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, ‘What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”? As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.’ …
‘Yet you say, “Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father”? Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.'”
Take that, Dougie.
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Retha – afaik, a lot of the “generational sin” stuff comes from the US charismatic movement; more specifically, from the late Derek Prince, who wrote a book about this back in the 70s.
Ancient Paths is run by Lou Engle, a US New Apostolic Reformation/Third Wave adherent who went to Uganda several years ago for a conference that set off waves of panic about LGBT people – not so coincidentally, the sponsor of the proposed legislation that would make homosexuality a capital crime was part of that.
I spent more time than I’d have liked around Third Wave adherents and would NOT recommend anything they advocate. Not only is it spiritually (and otherwise) nutty, it’s a thinly-disguised version of Dominionism.
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I believe you may speak the truth. However, to make sure we are not confusing two things here, I will mention the Ancient Paths course I spoke of came from an organisation called “Family Foundation International.” The group, if I recall right, has a branch/ sister called “Marriage ministries International.”
I did that course years ago, by now I know better.
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REtha – I just looked them up and honestly, it looks to me like they’re very much an NAR/3d Wave organization.
I would not be surprised if there was a connection between Lou Engle’s “Ancient Paths” and this group’s program of the same name… Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but NAR people tend to stick together in very tight, interconnected circles per ministry and who gets a lot of adulation/promotion/whatever.
I 1st heard the whole “blessings/curses” thing in a church associated with Derek Prince, back in the mid-1980s.
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If nothing else, there is a connecting *ideology* re. what Lou Engel (and others) espouse and what the FFI says.
That’s not surprising, given the popularity of many NAR authors/speakers here during the early 1990s. I went to a church that was seeded with NAR fans (very much including the “pastor”) and was not surprised to find that one of the leading authors cited several so-called “case studies” that involved church members (in one of his very over-the-top books on the subject).
I could go on, but hey – it’s not news to you, nor, I suspect, to many who read and comment here.
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As soon as someone said “generational curses” I thought of Derek Prince, and lo! his name has been mentioned by a couple of us.
I do remember reading this book back in the late 80s and it greatly disturbed me. Since then I’ve come to realise that (as far as I can see) it flies in the face of Christ’s finished work on the cross. Prince seemed to base his argument largely on the blessings and curses which were solemnly called down conditionally on Israel as God’s people in the Old Testament in the Pentateuch, and he bolstered these with what he evidently regarded as case studies. But in the 90s I found an Internet article by a French Protestant who took issue with Prince’s argument, asking if a believer was expected to confess a sin of which the believer themselves knew nothing.
I think it may be valid to pray for one’s country or people, etc, that aspects of sinful culture, even if historical (such as the legacy of slavery, or genocide, or corruption) might be eradicated – but even then a lot depends on whether the individuals that make up the country/people can be given a change of heart, which is part of the central thrust of the Gospel.
Derek Prince was a well-meaning man, but I think his Christian Zionism was off-kilter and perhaps influenced his reading of the Bible – however, I may be completely wrong – answers on a postcard, please!
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I was involved with the “strategic prayer” and “spiritual mapping” movements for a while, and concluded that it was basically abiblical and perhaps even anti-biblical (for using biblical language but twisting a lot of Bible verses and concepts that taken out of context) and that it, in effect, created *formulas* for breaking curses and spiritual strongholds for cities, geographical regions, nations, people groups, etc. Some of the generational curses stuff is the same premise, applied to individuals and their family lines. And many key adherents of these practices are connected with the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).
There are a lot of formulaic kinds of things in the NAR movement and in other kinds of revamps of the Shepherding Movement often associated with NAR celebs. It’s about “taking authority” (over demonic spirits) and alignment with human authorities, and breaking curses and bondages in people and places, so we supposedly “release” things for God to work according to His authority. And in some cases, it really does go to that extreme of God being bound until we do ABC and XYZ. Formulas to manipulate God to act how we think He should. Some people who talk about these concepts sound almost the same as some pagans and wiccans I’ve spoken with and/or whose books I’ve read, who have rituals to “redeem” the place where evil has happened and rituals to gain the force of nature to be on their side, etc.
I know I’m pulling this passage out of context, but I’m using it to show the difference between self-determination and curse-determination (is that a word?). While I believe there is a sort of spiritual DNA from our parents and relatives farther back, that can influence our formation but guarantees nothing. In terms of our actions, we are each ultimately responsible for our own choices and their consequences. Can’t say, “It’s my parents fault,” which apparently is what is being referred to in Jeremiah 31: 29-30.
29 “In those days people will no longer say,
‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes — their own teeth will be set on edge. [NIV, biblegateway.com]
Of course, I suppose that people who believe in a strong form of determinism that is fatalistic will have some kind of formula to explain God’s supposed judgments, regardless of whether their theology is Pentecostal NAR or Hyper-Reformed Piperism.
And this is not to deny that God can/does control nature and override its usual cycles. And this is not to deny the influence of spiritual, cultural, and genetic influences through families. Nor the presence and power of demonic forces. Just to say that if we’re about formulas and rituals, we may not be about freedom or responsibility.
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Postcard for Kolya (I was writing previous comment before you posted yours).
An answer in the form of a question: If it’s efficacious to confess unknown sins committed by forefathers/foremothers, is it also efficacious to believe on behalf of them or be baptized in their stead to get them into the Kingdom?
P.S. Weather here is fine. Hope you’re enjoying your weekend!
[Invisible stamp stuck on here.]
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Brad, does the “ABC” and “XYZ” involve chanted words, wands, athemes, and properly inscribed pentacles? And when they “take authority over demonic spirits”, is the demonic spirit held in a proper Summoning Circle with the proper Incanation? Which spells are used? From which grimoires?
Because “formulas to manipulate God/gods/spirits to act how we think He/they should” is the essence of Magick (Aliester Crowley’s spelling, used deliberately).
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Dear Brad,
Weather is typically British here, eg shortening daylight in the evening, grey skies and drizzle!
[SIGNED] Kolya
Seriously, that is a good point, and isn’t that what Mormons believe concerning baptism? (I think Paul mentions it in passing in 1 Cor 15). To be fair I don’t think that even the radical adherents of this form of NAR believe that a present-day believer can actually cause the sins of an ancestor to be remitted by prayer in that way – rather they think that the effects of that ancestor’s sin on the present-day believer can be broken. But I still disagree with the concept as a principle.
I think that while there is some merit in interceding for individuals, institutions and nations – there was a lot of prayer in the 1980s for the Communist world – once people start declaring the “right way to do it” or talking specifically about territorial spirits, etc, then I think they are going beyond Scripture.
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Headless Unicorn Guy.
Not chanted words, wands, etc etc. But in analyzing what is underneath the Christians’ language and actions related to binding/loosing, breaking curses, taking authority, etc., I find striking similarities when comparing this kind of Christian paradigm to the paradigm underneath certain forms of paganism and yes, Magick. That is exactly what I am suggesting. It seems to border on Christopaganism, Christoshamanism, Christian animism, depending on the language and the essence of the actions.
I’m not the first to notice this and suggest that it is, in effect, a problem of religious syncretism. The book, *Spiritual Power and Missions: Raising the Issues* explores questions raised by three practitioner-theologian/pastors along the exact same lines as I mentioned. They were deeply disturbed by the very loose “biblical” justification for such a theology, and were wondering if at least some people in the strategic prayer movement etc were actually functioning as “Christian animists.” The response by missiologist Charles Kraft in particular struck me as an emotional defense of his perspective and didn’t deal with the specifics of the theology or the practices these three pastor were critiquing.
Anyway, for those who may want to consider these issues in more detail, here is a link to a tutorial I did on “theodicy” – overviewing some perspectives on how God relates with good and evil, and the topics of spiritual warfare, spiritual mapping, etc.
http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-14/
There is a link in the middle of that tutorial to *Spiritual Power and Missions*, and at the end of the article, to a critique of the “Transformations” video which purports to share the stories of places where these kinds of spiritual mapping and strategic praying techniques were used. (Someone did follow-up research and found that the case studies weren’t all they were claimed to be.)
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Dear Kolya. I wish our national mail services could speed postcards to their destinations this fast. Twould be good!
Agreed about Mormonism, which is exactly why I put that point there.
I’m not against the concepts of considering how actions of our ancestors affect us in the present day. There are a lot of aspects of what’s been called “cultural capital” that make sense, passed down through family lines and tribes and people groups. Also, I don’t have a problem with intercession, counseling, pastoral care/ministry, a lot of things to help us resolve present ramifications of past actions by ourselves, parents, and back beyond them.
But when any particular practice becomes over-spiritualized and then Declared To Be The Only Way God [Supposedly] Will Respond To, then it’s become a formula with the expectation of a guaranteed positive outcome. [Or, back to Mr. Piper, woeful sinning brings down God’s judgment.] And what happens when things do not go the way one wants, as fast as one wants, or there are setbacks?
On my list of frameworks to think about is how the world (culture and its infrastructures) and spiritual forces of evil and our own broken natures can all work together to create a sort of gridlock of the soul. How many “ministry” approaches there are that only address one or two of these, and it’s rare to see or hear someone who considers all three. So I think that’s part of the larger problem. It’s not just about formulas and our turning relative things into absolutes when God doesn’t. It’s about falling short in all we’re considering for our growth, and the confusion and disappointment (usually in God) when we try deliverance or therapy or counteracting the social structures of evil, and it just turns out not to be enough.
Long postcard. Weather dictates time for a picnic, so ending for now! Hoping you can escape drizzle soon … [signed Brad]
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P.S. Here in the U.S., there was a huge earthquake in southern California in, like, the 1990s, and a lot of Christians were talking about how it hit the area where a lot of pornography is produced. So, it was tied in with themes of sin and judgment and warning and such.
I can’t remember exactly who said this, but someone did research and found that while the epicenter of the earthquake was somewhat near the porn center of Southern Calif., it didn’t cripple the industry at all. They said something like, “Well, God certainly didn’t do a surgical strike, did He?”
Kind of goes back to what Mr. Piper is implying, a sort of formula for prophetic interpreting of what sins and whose moved (caused?) God to act with a natural disaster. How many of these are likely, not exactly a surgical strike, because the ones harmed are rarely the ones who supposedly sinned and caused the event to happen.
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P.P.S. Hope you don’t mind serial postcards.
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Hi Brad,
That was a good series of postcards, don’t worry 🙂
Seriously, I take your point.
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That would be the Northridge Earthquake of 1994. Hit at 4:30 in the morning and woke me out of bed. Wrecked the same lengths of freeway as the 1971 Sylmar Quake.
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Funny how an earthquake in Los Angeles can apparently have nothing to do with the San Andreas Fault.
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1) We used to have several Alister Crowley wanna-bes in local F&SF fandom. They were laughingstocks in the fandom, literally living in their mommies’ basements and hitting the rest of us up for money. We called them “Masters of Mighty Magick”. Best anecdotes about them are from a contact of mine in Glendale (CA) who used to get hit up for money by them on a regular basis.
MoMM (paraphrased): You’re Rich! Gimme money!
Informant: If you’re such a Master of Mighty Magick, why don’t you just CONJURE yourself some cash?
MoMM (very haughty): I’m a SORCERER, not an Alchemist!
Another time, my informant got fed up with an improptu coven of MoMMs and had a flash of inspiration:
“Your sad devotion to your ancient religion has not left you with the ability to get a job, or the skills to work one if you ever did get it.”
(he had to run after that one…)
2) Somebody really should have gotten these guys hooked on Dee & Dee before they’d heard of Spiritual Warfare. Then they could role-play being Mighty Wizards and Clerics battling supernatural evil without pulling the rest of us into their little LARP as the Orcs.
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The San Andreas is just the largest fault going through the area (actually passing some 60-100km north of the city itself, on the other side of the San Gabriel Mountains). There’s a crazy quilt of secondary faults on both sides of the San Andreas, mostly paralleling the main fault line, and those go off too. The entire plate boundary is full of cracks and faults running deep and wide, some of them extending dozens of klicks away but most of them paralleling the San Andreas.
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I should have been clearer. The secondary faults etc are still part of the same movement of the plate boundary even if they aren’t the San Andreas itself. It’s all part of the one large system, and more to the point, Los Angeles (and San Francisco) are very well know for being on/near fault lines and for having extreme earthquake risk.
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Pam –
In my case, and I believe HUG’s, your speaking to the choir when it comes to the San Andeas and its babies 🙂
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@ Brad:
“Here in the U.S., there was a huge earthquake in southern California in, like, the 1990s, and a lot of Christians were talking about how it hit the area where a lot of pornography is produced. So, it was tied in with themes of sin and judgment and warning and such.”
This year, we witnessed massive forest fires bearing down on Colorado Springs (headquarters of major patriarch Kevin Swanson) and horrific drought ravaging Texas (where Doug Phillips’ church and favored convention centers are). And yet, no one even hinted that God could be warning the patriarchs to stop propagating false teaching. Because of course, the patriarchs couldn’t be WRONG. They’re the patriarchs. Not to mention the parallels between forest fires and hellfire would just be too…ironic.
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Brad – I was in a D.C.-area church where there were (still are) close ties to George Otis Jr. and his organization.
After a while, i started to think that there were some truly loony things going on at this place. and then they booted me, though not for questioning that stuff. (Long, long story.)
They liked to go out and pray over the original boundary stones of the District of Columbia and whatnot. All quite creepy.
It’s taken me about a decade to detox, what with one thing and another. Looking back, it’s both hard for me to believe that I accepted many of the things they were saying, and, at the same time, all too easy.
In late 2005-early 2006, I started looking for info. (from a critical pov) on the NAR, etc. but had difficulty finding anything that came from a perspective that wasn’t equally skewed. And then talk2action.org published a terrific series of analyses in 2008, during the presidential campaign, on both the NAR and S. Palin’s ties to it.
So many pieces of the puzzle fell into place for me then.
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P.S.: I actually think the hardcore NAR people have started their own religion; one that uses some names and words from the Bible but that has little or nothing to do with it – the NT in particular.
I have also had some dire-sounding curses pronounced against me, and was stunned that the person who did this would ever resort to such tactics.
I’m fine… not sure about them, though!
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P.P.S.: i think your comparison to animism is very good… though I’d also have to say that I believe the hardcore NAR/3d Wave adherents are, at bedrock level, dualists, since they perceive the world in terms of a cosmic struggle between good and evil. (A la Zoroastrianism.)
The thing is, all that binding/loosing, “spiritual warfare” stuff makes people feel like they’re important, since the world is, to them, a cosmic battlefield in which they aren’t just pawns, but channels of God’s power.
In many ways, it is a real-life RPG.
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P.P.P.S.: Twilight Labyrinth is the book I made reference to earlier re. the church tat booted me (“case studies” of so-called spiritual warfare from members).
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@ numo. You nailed it. I used “animist” partly because that’s what the *Spiritual Powers* book used, and partly because the essence of animism really is a “demon behind every bush,” as every concrete thing in the world is inhabited and “animated” by a spiritual force.
But I actually think this extreme take-off on spiritual warfare is closer to a revised/revived form of dualistic Zoroastrianism or gnostic aeons – with good and evil powers on opposite sides, and humanity sort of neutral and caught in the middle and which ever force pulls on them stronger, like some good or evil magnet, is the one that dominates them. The more drawn to one side or the other a human is in the cosmic tug-of-war over his/her life, the harder it is to escape and go to the other side.
These external forces which control people just isn’t the same as the biblical concept of the disciple’s choice between the old nature and fallenness and the new nature and following Jesus. There’s maybe a lot of similar language between the two, but the emphasis is so overwhelmingly on the external, the spiritual, the miraculous … those matter, while the internal, the human, the mundane just don’t entertain their thoughts.
Back to this territorial spirits and strategic prayer and spiritual warfare and spiritual mapping stuff. Which means, doesn’t it, that they actually have a “weak god” (no capital “G” on god by design, not a typo) who must be drawn in by their strategic prayers, and their exacting “discernment” of territorial spirits, their fervency and frequency of praying for evil to be “broken,” etc.? They would deny it, but the point of paradigm analysis, which includes theological analysis, is to figure out what the deep values and beliefs *actually* are which drive their organizations, culture, and actions. I think that’s what’s going on.
In case interested in a case study of the New Apostolic Reformation/NAR and their follies in the “Lakeland Outpouring” a few years ago, I did a seven-part series that I kept on my blog:
http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/category/culturology-case-studies/kingdom-leadership-after-lakeland/
Many of the key “leaders” in that debacle have ties to NAR, and the strategic prayer and spiritual warfare movements. In that series, I was trying to: (1) Make sense of the public lapses in leadership and discernment in the 2008 “Lakeland Outpouring.” (2) Interpret the implications of Lakeland for constructive movement forward, which includes taking responsibility for past failures and working toward prevention of failure in the future. (3) Profile what healthy / sustainable leadership should look like in emerging cultures. There are always constructive things we can learn from the destructive stuff around us …
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P.S. numo and HUG. You mentioned RPGs and LARPs (for the uninitiated, Role Playing Games and Live Action Role Playing games).
You might be interested to know that in some of my delving into RPG systems, I found one set in the San Francisco Bay Area. It was more along the lines of fantasy than sci-fi. What caught my attention had to do with spiritual dominances. What the New Testament would likely term a spiritual “stronghold” from which a person needed deliverance, the RPG called this a “freehold” where you could do whatever you wanted.
My understanding of the biblical concept is that you may think a particular perspective or activity brings freedom, but actually it turns out to be a stronghold of bondage. So I found the RPG use of the term “freehold” more than just a little eerie. And creepy, actually.
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Do you remember the name of the game or system, Brad? From your fragmentary description, it sounds like one of the White Wolf games.
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That wasn’t praying. That was setting Wards.
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Long ago, I concluded that a lot of these Spiritual Warfare types have gone one step beyond Zoroaster — Satan/Ahriman is not just equal to, but MORE powerful than God/Ahura-Mazda. Otherwise why would God need all these Spiritual Warriors making their Magick to hold Satan at bay?
And this also explains the glazed eyes and strained shrill tone in the voice of these Spiritual Warriors: They have made Satan so powerful that deep down they’re afraid (despite all their warding and binding and loosing) they’ve thrown in with the losing side.
(Historical trivia: When the Spanish Inquisition rolled on a Witchcraft case (which was very rarely), the actual charge they brought was “Heresy: Attributing too much power to Satan”.)
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HUG – re. Ahriman, you’ve hit it exactly!
If they actually believed in the efficacy of Christ’s death and his victory over death, sin and Satan, they would not need to be so (hmm…) “powerful” in their prayers (and fasting), or their continual binding/loosing, nor in their rituals re. donning the whole armor of god (my lowercase g isn’t a typo, either!), etc. etc. etc.
They are *extremely* fearful and superstitious – more so than many of the people whom they criticize for exactly that. I think Tibetan villagers and Iroquois Indians have far more common sense than these folks, for the most part.
As for “setting wards,” yes and not quite, since they were supposedly “breaking the power of Satan” over D.C. *and* – in particular – driving out “spirits of Freemasonry.”
I always quietly failed to attend these types of gatherings… ; )
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Brad – it’s not just that external forces (supposedly) control people, it’s that these folks think they can have power over such forces (as you mentioned, to the point of trying to manipulate god into granting their wishes).
their god requires *them* to help him/it gain “dominion” over what L. Ron Hubbard called “battlefield Earth.” Their god would, I think, be seemingly “powerless” w/o them to act as his agents and as channels of his power.
So… the claims that it’s about intercessory prayer are, imo, baseless. If their god cannot act without them, what kind of god is he/it, really? He/it is dependent on the actions of human beings.
And – very scary – those who are allied with the other “god” (since it seems that these folks believe in two major entities) are, therefore, evil and should be displaced from their “territory.”
and that’s a recipe for bloodshed – even genocide – in the making.
btw, you have followed connections re. the NAR and the Latter Rain movement, no? With their views on “the Manifest Sons of God”? Because it’s there, from the charismatic renewal onward – I’ve heard people talk about the “chosen generation = meaning the same thing that the LR people call “Joel’s army.”
What troubles me greatly is that most people in the news media seem to think that the NAR are just a bunch of kooks, not people who can manipulate political power. the “kooks” part isn’t so off, though I know otherwise sane – and well-educated – people who believe in the NAR agenda wholeheartedly.
The problem comes at the political level, and I think there’s been one hell of a lot of maneuvering there for the past 20+ years… which is only just starting to become apparent now, or at least since the 2008 presidential campaign season. but I don’t want to go into that on-list here, since I believe I might end up violating the commenting policy with some of my remarks on that score!
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Also, re. “freehold,” I think maybe the actual dictionary definition clarifies what the gamers mean, at least in part –
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@ HUG. Yup, I’m pretty sure it was a fantasy White Wolf RPG. If I remember correctly it talked about “freeholds” as places that are concealed from mortals, but where enchantment/magic happened. Sort of like the Celtic concept of “thin spaces.” And while I suppose there is something to be said for the concept that if a person or people group considers a particular item to be an idol, or a place to be especially inhabited by “spirits,” then we have to deal with their perceptions/beliefs on that basis. However, does that justify spiritual warfare based on what seems hair breadths away from outright occult practices involving finding these “spiritual hot spots” and “vortexes”?
Also, I searched for an analogy I came up with a decade ago as a friend of mine and I tried to process his experiences. He lived in a highly occult-oriented neighborhood for a time, and got so heavily into spiritual warfare that it took over his perspective for a few years. In fact, it was oppressive to him and his household. Because one whole wing of spiritual abusive movements go wholesale into this stuff, thought I’d quote the description of that analogy here – maybe readers from some of these heavily warfare-oriented churches will find it of help. It’s from the tutorial I did on “theodicy,” near the bottom of the page. I edited it slightly or added phrases to clarify book titles and sources:
If you’ve been adversely affected by the “Transformations” [Sentinel Group/George Otis, Jr.] theology and “spiritual mapping/strategic-level warfare prayer” practices, you might be interested in getting this book I found over 10 years ago in the late 1990s: Spiritual Power and Missions: Raising the Issues by Edward Rommen. It has several articles that give a substantial theological critique of the extreme spiritual warfare systems of George Otis, Jr.; Cindy Jacobs; Dutch Sheets; C. Peter Wagner; et al; if that’s part of how you want to process your own release from captivity.
I attended the second ever spiritual mapping conference in 1994, not because I was a total advocate, but because I am a cautionary critic and wanted to find out what this was about. I have had many friends directly involved as advocates, and I could see something seemed out of whack. I wrestled for a few years with whether [George Otis, Jr.’s/The Sentinel Group’s] “Transformations” system as laid out in books like *Twilight Labyrinth* and *Informed Intercession* was biblical, abiblical, or anti-biblical. I finally concluded it was an abiblical system (not substantiated in Scripture) that easily becomes anti-biblical (a counterfeit system) by taking us away from the clear teachings of Scripture. (I still do hold to many aspects of spiritual warfare and theodicy, even as a never-been-Charismatic missional-minded mostly-Baptist-in-my-theology guy, because I believe they are clear and central doctrines found in Scripture.)
Here’s an analogy I came up with to explain what I see as the core problem. It’s like we’re doorkeepers who stand in the open doorway between two rooms. In the outer room it is fully dark. In the throne room sits Jesus and it is full of light.
Strategic-level spiritual warfare praying wants us to stand in the doorway, face into the dark room, and focus on casting out the darkness. Some of the light from Jesus flows past us and into the dark room. We occasionally turn toward Jesus, but not for too long because our supposed job is to stand against the darkness.
But what Scripture wants of us is to stand in the doorway, face Jesus, and take in the light. When we do this, the same amount of light goes around us and into the dark room as when we go the spiritual warfare route, plus we can always turn temporarily to greet anyone who comes near because they are being drawn toward the light.
We become like whatever we focus on. If we integrate our lives around Jesus, we ourselves are transformed toward Christlikeness and we can affect the people around us accordingly. It’s ironic that when we integrate our lives around how people are influenced by Satan, we ourselves become inhumane because we no longer see humans, only spiritual forces and those pawns controlled by them. I wonder if all abusive theologies are built around such contempt for the very people whom God loves …
http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-14/
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I don’t like getting too far into detail on this stuff because I know how alluring it can all-too-easily become. But on the other hand, I know people who’ve gotten trapped in this, and I consider it a type of spiritual abuse. How do people get free if no one ever proclaims that true freedom is possible? (Even for those who already have been following Jesus but got messed up in this junk theology?) So, a few more things to say on this subject, hoping it will help people who may be trapped.
Here’s a quote from the RPG section on “freeholds” from the White Wolf system I mentioned: “Freeholds, concealed by their Glamour from the eyes of mortals, are places of splendor that dot cities and countrysides across the Earth. Any site where changelings gather may become a freehold. … Freeholds … are fonts of Glamour, places where wondrous and magical effects are commonplace occurrences. Enchantment here is powerful; few can long resist the lure of these small islands of wonder.” This does sound more like the “thin space” concept where access to the invisible world is more prevalent and potent.
It is ironic and sad that people who overfocus on this approach to good and evil and get wrapped up in believing they are unlocking people groups and places for the Spirit to work have actually gone into bondage themselves – and to the very thing they’re supposedly trying to help others get free from. That strategic warfare and territorial spirit stuff quickly becomes a trap.
Beware! This elaborate system presents an enticing counterfeit to Kingdom transformation brought about by the Triune God. What kind of god requires shaman-like spiritual warriors performing ritual intercessions and actions to “free the way” for people and places? And if the God of the Bible truly does command these kinds of actions, why is that critical key to evangelism so unclear in the Bible itself that books upon books upon books must be written to “clarify” and “amplify” something based mostly on one verse in Daniel about the Prince of Persia warring against Michael the Archangel? Are you truly fighting the Liar and the Father of All Lies, or succumbing to his tricks because someone’s told you it is the truth? Read the Scriptures for yourselves, decide for yourselves.
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Well, apparently you’re fighting and evil “goddess spirit” that was manipulating both Princess Diana *and* Mother Teresa, to judge by what C. Peter Wagner and some of his pals have to say about it. [/end sarcasm, but I bet Brad knows that I’m not making this up]
They really are into this notion of D.c. supposedly being a place where the glory of God should be manifest… which is pretty much the same as saying that it would be better to have a theocracy (run by them, of course) in place than a democratic republic.
Maybe it will come as no surprise to know that That Church (the one that booted me) is on Capitol Hill. And yes, some high-level federal employees (some of them political appointees) were members during my time there…
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Brad, I’m not so sure that it *is* alluring when examined in the cold light of day – kind of the opposite, I think.
In fact, it reminds me of fairy gold that turns into trash or leaves (or whatever valueless thing a writer chooses) when seen outside the mound, under the sun.
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“Freehold” seems to mean the same thing as fairy forts/underhill/etc. in that game – the parallel world that appears in folklore from Ireland and the UK, as well as in a lot of fantasy lit.
I really don’t see it as having evil overtones per se. (Though since I don’t know the game – and am not a gamer anyway – I might be wrong.)
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numo: “They really are into this notion of D.c. supposedly being a place where the glory of God should be manifest… which is pretty much the same as saying that it would be better to have a theocracy (run by them, of course) in place than a democratic republic.”
And therein lies the tie-in with dominion theology, which utterly confuses Israel and the Old Testament with the Kingdom and the New Testament, and draws in America and “manifest destiny” and “exceptionalism” and “light on a hillside for all the world” and all founding fathers being devoted Christians instead of at least some being deists, etc. etc.
And when you said, “Brad, I’m not so sure that it *is* alluring when examined in the cold light of day – kind of the opposite, I think.” Not sure we were referring on the same thing. I was meaning the attraction people can have to this mysterious but formulaic approach to “being good soldiers for Jesus” and doing this sort of territorial spiritual warfare and such. Did you think I meant the RPG stuff? Not sure …
And on freehold and whether it has “evil overtones per se.” I agree about that. I was thinking a few steps beyond that, as we random-oriented people often do, and we get to the conclusion without giving some of the key pieces of data in between to show the linear/logical steps. Sorry — I got ahead of myself there.
Anyway, I was thinking specifically about “geomancy,” the occult practice of figuring out spiritual “vortexes” [power spots] and “ley lines” [power trails] in geographic areas, which goes beyond the folklore of “thin spaces” to something more, something that ties in with these views of spiritual warfare and territorial spirits and so-called transformation.
Doesn’t a problem arise when we claim to be using “biblical” techniques of spiritual warfare, but we’re actually studying the systems provided by occult practitioners, and using those as a base? I mean, how far are we then from actually being involved in occultism – even if under the name of jesus [no capital “J” and not a typo]? That’s why when I simply listened to the advocates of these forms of warfare talk, they sounded just like people I’d spoken with who were consciously, intentionally pursuing occult activities, shamanism, channeling, etc.
It’s insidious … and to tie it in again with the original subject of the post, shouldn’t we be wary of *anyone* – Pentecostal, Reformed, Baptist, whatever – who misuses a Bible verse as prooftext for a springboard to basically speak on behalf of god and fill in the details of what he left out?
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Brad – I meant the “strategic-level spiritual warfare” stuff – it creates fear and harm in peoples’ lives. If they can see it discussed in a logical way – and with some decent theology – I *do* think it becomes far less alluring, yes.
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Feng shui is a form of geomancy, and it has nothing to do with ley lines or vortices of power or whatever else it is that many Westerners are into.
I did some reading about it – from a Chinese perspective (actually, written by someone who carries out assessments and has been trained in a very traditional style) and in some ways, it comes across more like an ancient attempt to figure things out in a system that has classifications – very like “science” as we know it, in some respect. But the article was quite nuanced and I think that part of what the guy is really good at is… psychology; an intuitive understanding of personality and an ability to assess the character of many of the clients who hire him.
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As for the way in which the “spiritual warfare” mentality and practices are so close to so many “occult” practices (I’m qualifying only because some things that xtians consider to be “occult” really aren’t), I think it’s highly ironic – but equally, that the irony is totally lost on those who are immersed in it.
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@ Numo, HUG, and Brad:
Wow – you guys have done a lot of digging into occult/NAR/”extreme spiritual warfare” people. I’ve really only read about the NAR’s political connections on Talk2Action (which I think is a great site even though the authors are way more politically left than I am). I guess I’ve never understood why that theology would be appealing to anybody – I mean, who wants to walk around in terror that demons are going to “take dominion” over their house if their kid reads a Twilight novel? Is their God really that weak? I thought Jesus had already defeated Satan.
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@ numo on Mon Sep 03, 2012 at 03:12 AM: [Brad – I meant the “strategic-level spiritual warfare” stuff – it creates fear and harm in peoples’ lives. If they can see it discussed in a logical way – and with some decent theology – I *do* think it becomes far less alluring, yes.]
That makes sense to me. For me, it helps to see the entire context of Scripture and how it is present and interwoven from Genesis to Revelation. But it is not the direct, front-and-center story of the stage of life. Spiritual warfare is more like a backdrop to the action on stage, or the theatre in which it occurs. But God, not Satan, is the Director and Producer. (To tie this analogy in with the topic of extreme Reformist theologies, one has to decide whether we as the “actors” on stage are merely repeating the words on a script like robotoids with none of our choices affecting the plot, or whether we are actually doing improv where our choices do affect the unfolding action.)
The reason some of this “creeps me out” is because of how I saw it personally affecting friends of mine who got steeped in it. And often our language about this topic is the vocabulary of conquest, and I wonder if some of the appeal to some people may be because spiritual warfare does seem to be a role in which anyone could make an impact. “I mean, it’s really all about intercessory prayer, right? And what could be wrong with that?”
I don’t discount the spiritual gift of discernment, or the necessity to see things very carefully in “fear-based cultures” – where everyday life is conducted in an atmosphere where the biggest questions are about how to placate the “unseen powers” and avoid the evil eye and what ritual can you do to protect you from harm. But spiritual warfare won’t be the only doctrine to make a difference in such a place, even if there does need to be a bit more emphasis on legitimate discernment and perhaps deliverance to counterbalance their entrapment by forces of evil, and it will make sense in their culture to be sure to tie in the gospel with Christ’s triumph over Satan.
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Brad – given what Eagle has just described (and what I’ve seen, too), I think that people who take up “strategic-level spiritual warfare” ARE living in what you refer to as a fear-based culture, where things (god or otherwise) must be placated, etc. etc.
to take one example, George Otis Jr.’s Twilight Labyrinth is one seriously weird book. He seems to embrace the things that he claims to deplore, and goes off on all kinds of crazy tangents (Santa Claus is *really* a Siberian shaman, for example) constantly.
It can – and does – induce fear, imo.
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Yup. And as in all of what seem to be in any system based on perfectionism – if you’re super super “good” you get accolades, but if you fall short, then it’s super “bad” because the evangelism of the world depends on “accurate” and “enough” intercession to stop the evil spirits and get [g]od to act.
It is a fear-based, spirit-controlled culture, not a “true love casts out fear” and Holy Spirit-empowered culture. It is not biblical.
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Well, it follows quite naturally that in this system, one has to placate god.
And *that* is what really harmed me, more than any other aspect of it, I think…
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Haven’t personally done a lot of digging. Just what I’ve been able to pick up by osmosis from several blogs. And being an F&SF fan since the Seventies — you tour some interesting tracts of mental landscape that way, both in the literature and some of the weirder fans.
How about “demons taking dominion over your house” and causing a depression by piggybacking on a piece of fantasy art (a smexy cobra-woman lounging in a white dress) you picked up at an SF con’s art show? I actually got told that after a bout of depression in early 2010, on the say-so of a “spiritual warfare expert”. (For the record, I know exactly why acquiring that picture threw me into a two-month depression: Some circumstances around my acquiring it were similar enough to other circumstances in my past that they caused flashback memories of my bad breakup with my only girlfriend — at full emotional intensity. And I didn’t need an exorcism to lift the depression; I wrote my way out of it with a 10,000-word fantasy novelette based on the experience.)
And judging from my other experiences with Christianese reactions to D&D, indie comics, and furries, I would have to conclude that the answer to “Is their God really that weak?” is YES.
I first heard about “The Elijah List” on a now-defunct blog called Onward, Forward, Towards that also mentioned “Charismania” and “Charismatic Witchcraft”. The blogger had NOTHING good to say about “The Elijah List”, and regularly debunked it.
“There are two errors we may fall into regarding the race of Devils — we either discount their very existence or believe their existence but take a very unhealthy interest in them.”
— C.S.Lewis, Preface to Screwtape Letters (from memory)
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I’m so sorry you experienced that, numo. Perfectionism and fear and what they drive us to make a wreck of our faith …
And trying to get God not to be mad at us certainly seems to be a priority in Mr. Piper’s theological system.
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Regarding fantasy magic, earlier this year I helped proof and tweak a friends fanfic novel, one of whose themes IS the difference between fantasy magic and Magick. (The premise is a crossover between Manly Wade Wellman’s “Silver John” fantasy Americana series and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, played completely straight as a serious fantasy world.) Here’s an excerpt on the subject, from John’s first-person POV:
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Hester – I started going to charismatic Catholic prayer meetings in the early 1970s and was in several churches that both came out of the discipleship/shepherding movement *and* got into some aspects of OT-ism plus NAR crap.
Which is how/why I know what I know. A lot of my thoughts above have come out of a decades’-worth of detox after getting booted by That Church. I know this is a very long comment thread, but if you scroll up a bit, you’ll catch a few details from me that might go a long way to explaining why my perspective is what it is.
as for talk2action.org, I am fairly liberal, but by no means do I always agree with them… however, both Rachel Tabatchnik and Chris Rodda are the bomb! I’m very grateful for Rachel’s sleuthing and series on the NAR, as it has made a lot of things I’ve known/experienced fall into place – as if she added the missing pieces of the puzzle. (I wrote her a thank-you note for that a couple of years ago.)
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Eagle…
There are so many other clubs I wish I could have been a part of….
I hear you… but the thing is, you’re free to choose now. Or start your own club, for that matter. 😉
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Eagle – It *is* an awful series of things to go through – no question there.
one thing I have been learning, though, is to live more in the present. And that has been very freeing, though it takes some work to focus at times.
I *still* feel a lot of anger at times, nearly 10 years on, but it’s been steadily diminishing… I think there’s no timetable for recovery from abuse, though, so don’t gauge yourself in years or months or days. It will take however long it takes.
But I do believe you will get through it OK.
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I seem to remember that some of Jack Chick’s comics seem to major in this sort of tendency as well. He was quite old-fashioned in some ways, but some of the strips were quite lurid.
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I hope I’m not doing him a disservice.
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Jan and Beakerj,
(awe, DAGNABBIT this ended up too long & convoluted! But if you’ll indulge me….)
A ways up you commented on Beakerj’s statement,
“But how do we know, really really know, that God is not like this & this isn’t true? So many very smart & scripturally astute people seem to buy into some version of this…How do we KNOW?”
Have a thought. I’m presently very fascinated with Lucille Ball — such a unique and remarkable person, having had remarkable life experiences, shaping her in such complex ways. I’ve read much commentary, perused biographies, and am currently reading one written by a close pal of hers and endorsed by her daughter Lucie (so I assume getting much closer to the epicenter of truth).
So, there are concentric circles of information, based on a variety of things = conjecture, hearsay, impressions, observations, verifiable facts, direct experience, misunderstandings and misperceptions by degrees, true stories, true stories that are embellished a bit sometimes touching on falsity.
The closer to the person the source of information has been, the more accurate. But even so, the secret keys to the truth of the person are locked within the person him or herself. The more complex the person, the more this is the case.
With Lucille Ball, she has “moved on”. So perhaps she’ll never be completely understood (even by her family).
But the person of God is different.
“Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.” Jer. 33:3
“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” Rev. 3:20
We’ll never fully understand God. But as far as I can tell, it can be an ever-growing relationship in which we know come to know Him more and more, what He’s like, what he thinks — this is no revelation, & I don’t doubt you would agree. I even think knowing God on an ever-deeper level gives us shades of understanding into the subtleties of his unique personality. By which one can apply some conjecture (with confidence, perhaps) into what “this” seems to mean, what “that” seems to have meant.
With someone like Lucille Ball, I’ll never know with complete understanding all the intricate what’s and why’s about her, and there will never be complete agreement amongst those interested in her. But I can glean from the concentric circles of information, knowing that the closer the source was to her the more rich the vein of truth. And I can’t help but have opinions on it all (we all are constantly developing opinions based on the data we perceive). I can have a certain amount of confidence in my opinion based on the knowledge I know I have.
I think it’s the same with God. There will never be complete agreement about him. But I can have a certain amount of confidence in how i understand him, based on the knowledge I know I have. And when other people (even the most illustrious) have very different opinions,…. so what. It’s not worth turning my mind inside out like a paper cup trying to reconcile squares and circles.
Even though people may disagree about the what’s and why’s about Lucille Ball, there are many things they would all agree on based on evidence. With God and the differing opinions on the what’s and why’s, there are many things we would all agree on based on the evidence.
I just relax with that, and continue to know God as I know him.
People knew & understood Lucille Ball in different ways, based on their experiences with her and their perception filters. People know God in different ways based on their experiences and perception filters. Fortunately, God is every wanting to be known and ever making himself available to me (& everyone), and I can do my best in getting to know him in deepening ways, and do my best in keeping my perception filters pure.
I just do my best, and rest in confidence in what I know. God is not scary or painful or emotionally abusive (circumstances are, God isn’t.) “Taste and see that the Lord is good.”
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Kolya – re. Jack Chick, if anything, you’re being too polite by half.
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Re: Chick,
The first and most memorable Chick Tract I found was relevant to this discussion. Chick told of his friend– owed lotsa money by a man who refused to pay it back. “My friend forgot to pray for that man. Two weeks later, that man and his girlfriend plunged to a Christless Grave (TM). (Picture of car going off cliff with hellish flames and demons below).
Imagine the eternal load of guilt to be carried by Chick’s friend, trying to enjoy heaven but constantly thinking “woulda coulda shoulda”, and that man and his (presumably innocent) girlfriend being eternally tormented by demons– all ’cause the friend got busy with work, or the kids, or (horrors) maybe a round of golf, and forgot to pray, and therefore no angel could go and fix the brakes, or build a higher guard rail. And Satan has the victory, in like fashion as if a bridge collapses and kills people, all because some preacher in town isn’t paying close enough attention to God.
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Does everything have to have a rhyme & reason? Can’t both good and bad poo-poo just happen? The writer of Ecclesiastes seemed to think so.
Besides, what fun is there in deciding every last roulette spin & dice throw before hand? Or for that matter, deciding ahead of time which shovel full of worthless little maggots gets to be tormented in hell forever?
Mr. Piper, if that’s desiring God, thanks but no thanks, I’ll pass.
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Okay…haven’t commented in a while. Life….
First, regarding Jack Chick tracks…they are insidious. I grew up on them and the Gospel isn’t in them. They scared the hell out of me – contributed greatly to abject fear of God striking me dead. I was like 8, 9, 10 years old. A couple of years ago, someone in town went on a Chick Track Rampage (TM) – stuffing them in the door handles of cars while people were at work, shoving them in your hand in a crowd at the farmers market. I was knee deep in the deconstruction then and in one week, I had 3 on my car and one shoved in my hand. It freaked me out – the one shoved in my hand I never got to look at. My friend saw it, saw the look on my face and took and threw it in the trash. She was angry. 🙂 The ones on my car I read….. and got angry. And threw them away – and had to wrestle with the indoctrinated guilt of that until I recognized that it had no redemptive value and if it had that affect on me, why would I want to risk anyone else reading it? But I had to wrestle through the irrational fear that my reaction to these tracks was a result of my backslidden, fallen ways….
Now the NAR stuff. Sigh. I grew up Assemblies of God. That has it’s own set of issues, but they were tame compared to what I dealt with at home. My mother was (is) a malignant narcissist with her ‘superpower’ of choice being religion and spiritual things. (Research malignant narcissism for info on how they choose particular fields to be ‘experts’ in.) She was heavily into Word of Faith, demonology, spiritual warfare. I grew up in an atmosphere were Satan was literally a constant presence to be fought.
I remember one time, she had a sick migraine (she was prone to them) and she always got angry, as though being sick was a personal affront to her and made her look bad (research Word of Faith). She would yell at God – in later years, when she developed rheumatoid arthritis, she would curse God – but she was a ‘strong Christian woman.’ Anyway, she had this headache and she was yelling at me to pray for her and hit her in the head and knock the headache out of her. I wouldn’t do it and she got very angry. She had me perform and exorcism on her once…..tears. Ugly stuff. Later in life, when I got caught up in the church/cult (Word of Faith on steroids with shepherding mixed in), I got into the Elijah List. After I got out of that church, I recognized the Elijah List was just a bunch of people who may or may not have specific spiritual gifts, but either way, were using them for their own agenda and fame. I first heard of Todd Bentley (of Lakeland fame) there. They are putting on a performance for each other, trying to out-prophecy each other, and it has a ‘snake-oil’ feel to me, now.
The Elijah List is how I became aquainted with the NAR. Dutch Sheets, C Peter Waganer(sp), Cindy Jacobs, etc., were regular contributors. And C Peter Waganer can deny affiliation with Todd Bentley all her wants, but I remember Bentley getting his start on the Elijah List with Waganer’s endorsement….
In reading all your comments (Brad, Numo, Eagle, HUG), it is helpful and saddening at the same time. I sometimes get overwhelmed with the insanity of it all. And I still sometimes find myself a little shaky on the fear of being ‘out of line and lost’ side – but that is getting less frequent…. and I just want to cry at the friends I still have that lean toward the ‘spiritual warfare/strategic warfare’ paradigm.
Oh, and I have had my share of guilt for not ‘witnessing’ to friends that then died in car wrecks or, in one case, committed suicide. If they’re in hell, it could be my fault. Still detoxing from that one….
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“Does everything have to have a rhyme & reason? Can’t both good and bad poo-poo just happen? The writer of Ecclesiastes seemed to think so”
Yep, and here is what is so bad about what the Calvinistas teach as they navel gaze becasue you cannot do one good thing: God is going to redeem the earth and while they were navel gazing and telling everyone about God’s Sovereignty directing every molecule (so why try to do good) even the rape of little girls, those who believe God gives us some choices in our behavior, choice in fighting evil in our midst that we know is from the evil one who is free to roam this corrupted planet and our longing to please Him— means the Calvinistas will not be prepared to live on the redeemed earth.
We must live out our faith HERE and NOW. We must be like Christ to this world in the midsts of all the bad stuff that happens because we live in a corrupted world in corrupted bodies. Christ redeemed us and we strive for Holiness. To be more like Him.
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“HELLO, FRINGIES!!!”
— “Sinister Seymour”, 1960s-vintage TV horror-movie host of the Los Angeles area
No, Dave, that’s “PLUNGED TO A CHRISTLESS GRAVE!!!!!!” Chick used a LOT of boldface and exclamation points.
Anyone heard the speculation that Jack Chick was really a Satanic plant to poison people’s minds against Christ with his tracts?
Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it. My first introduction to a certain Jesus Christ (at the impressionable age of around 15) was through two Jack Chick tracts: “This Was Your Life” and “The Beast”. With Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth as a chaser. Talk about a recipe to really mess up your head…
Great term, Jeanette — “Chick Tract Rampage”. Sounds like the title of some Nintendo game or novelty song on Dr Demento. (Speaking of the latter, we got any filkers in this blog who’d like to give it a try?)
No, Jeanette, you grew up in an atmosphere of Witchcraft with a Christian coat of paint, where Satan was more powerful than God.
And according to M Scott Peck in People of the Lie, there’s an older and shorter word for “Malignant Narcissicm”: Evil.
“Insanity is part of these times. You must learn to EMBRACE THE MADNESS!”
— Londo Mollari, Centauri Ambassador, Babylon-5
It’s called GUILT MANIPULATION. JMJ Over at Christian Monist often posts about how a lot of abusive churches have elevated it to a high art.
And its corollary WRETCHED URGENCY (from Internet Monk), where a passage from Ezekiel is redefined to mean “If YOU don’t Witness to them and they Go To A Christless Grave(TM), God Will Hold YOU Responsible(TM)!” So with God’s Hell-gun pressed against the back of your head with one up the spout and the safety off, you get desperate. Crazy desperate. Until you’re climbing the crazy tree high enough to grab onto and high-pressure EVERYONE you come across. Because if you don’t do it to them, God will do it to you — same deal as the SS made to the Kapos in the concentration camps.
Welcome to “My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.”
I got burned, you got burned, Eagle got burned, Deb & Dee got burned.
And we’re all the walking wounded in the Post-Evangelical Wilderness.
We’re all bozos on this bus.
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HUG, and all….
Hmm…the Chick Tract that had the deepest affect on me was “This Was Your Life.” I first read it when I was about 7 or 8 years old. For those of you that haven’t read it and have the stomach for it, google Jack Chick and you’ll find it. Generally, it is about dying and having every sin you’ve ever committed played on a super-sized movie theater style screen for all to see. This is done whether you are saved or not, but (of course) the man in this story isn’t. Imagine what kind of affect this had on a young girl caught in the middle of years of molestation and being taught that she was the one at fault for it….and thinking Jesus would do that to her. Because the worst part was that the one playing the movie for all to see was Jesus….
As to the M. Scott Peck book, People of the Lie, I’ve read it. And I agree with his premise – there is no way to explain the smug look of satisfaction that you see on your mother’s face after she has, using merely words, reduced you to tears, with your hands over your head, cowering – and you are 40 years old…. but it was for your own good, she’s only trying to help……
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Jeannette. Wow.
…
It’s Tony Alamo tracts that we always used to get on our cars in Memphis. Because I have led a charmed life compared to you all, I just read them out of curiosity and then tossed them. Never could make heads nor tails out of them. After all of the stuff came out about him I understood why. The man is wack. I don’t know what happened to the children trafficked by his cult – foster care, I guess.
We moved to Lakeland in 2007. I knew there was *something* going on but was so busy with work and so forth I was oblivious to all that. Ick.
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Who’s Robbing God???
Let’s just say that your pastor is making an average salary of $50,000 per year. Some make 2, 3, or 4 times that amount. If your pastor preaches 3 sermons per week, that is 156 sermons per year. If you divide 156 sermons, into the $50,000 salary, you will find that he is being paid an average of $320 per sermon. If his sermon averages 20 minutes like most pastors, he is making $16 per MINUTE!!! He is making more money in one minute than most of the hard working people that support him make in an entire hour on their job!!!
And even at this ridiculous rate of pay some of these “men of god” will not even invest the time to study and prepare their own sermons, but will steal/read/plagiarize someone else’s commentary, or go to a website like sermoncentral.com and get a sermon.
What is worse than that is if someone discovers that the pastor IS plagiarizing, and deceiving his congregation about it, the person that calls the pastor to repentance is then villified as if he did something wrong.
What can we do about it? Simple:
A)Stop tithing – it is not once commanded under the new covenant to tithe. Especially to a pastor that is not feeding you, but is feeding off of you through tithes.
B)Come out of the harlot religious system. Forsake not assembling yourself with other believers, but you don’t have to be institutionalized like an inmate to do it.
C)Don’t be silent about abusive church leaders. Start a blog, link to someone else’s blog on your Facebook, visit chatrooms and point people to websites like this one, or Apostacy Watch, Wicked Shepherds, Coming In The Clouds, etc. Wicked Shepherd has a spiritual abuse survey on thier website. Email it to every Christian you know. Together we can make a difference.
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@Nelson Steinburger
While I think many pastors are overpaid in larger churches I think you have made some suggestions which are way off the mark in terms of where the time goes. Most pastors (and anyone else who has to give a public speech) spend much more time researching and preparing than talking. Plus I expect a teaching pastor to spend time expanding his knowledge.
Then, especially when you get away from larger churches, a pastor gets to spend much time doing things totally unrelated to the Sunday sermon. Especially if they are filling the role as many of us envision it.
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Lynn/Nelson
Then there is Mark Driscoll who bragged he wrote his sermon in 2 hours while watching the Seattle Mariners. Also, a friend recently discovered that the pastor of her church is using canned sermons off the Internet. In fact, back in the day that i was at Ed young’s church, I found out that he has used a sermon from Willowcreek by some folks who heard it there, first, then at Fellowship.
Now contrast that to Wade Burleson’s sermons which he writes himself. That takes some doing and thought-especially since he is an original thinker.
So there are glimmers of truth in both of your comments.
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Generally, it is about dying and having every sin you’ve ever committed played on a super-sized movie theater style screen for all to see. This is done whether you are saved or not, but (of course) the man in this story isn’t. Imagine what kind of effect this had on a young girl caught in the middle of years of molestation and being taught that she was the one at fault for it….and thinking Jesus would do that to her. — Jeanette Altes
I don’t need to imagine, Jeanette. I was never molested or anything like that, but “This Was Your Life” had the same effect on me — stark terror of this sadistic cosmic Kim Jong-Il. To this day, I can only approach God or Christ through the safety precautions of Liturgy.
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Hello,
Spooky or not, seems to me that spiritual warfare doesn’t mean a billy blue thing without one prime ingredient:
Choice.
If we are just playing pieces on a cosmic chessboard, none of this would even matter.
….point, counter-point, in the end God wins, Satan loses, end of story.
Two cosmic forces bashing the cr@p out of each other….
Every thing else is peripheral.
And we are just Pawns.
What happened to: “Who so believes….” ?!?
Choice?
The gem shining through all of J.C.C. tracts is: “The power of Choice”.
(I find it very comical that that is the very thing that the calvinestas, with their take on scripture, want to take away.)
Jesus, during the three and a half years of ministry gave people a choice:
….follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
….If you knew who it was speaking to you, you would asked for living water.
….neither do I, go and sin no more.
….zykeius, come down.
….cast your nets.
….. reach in and touch my side.
…..if any man opens the door, I will come….
….God so loved “you” that He gave His only Son, that if you believe, “you” shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Choice?
What happen to that freedom?
Are people too busy planting T.U.L.I.P’ s
or is that spiritual daises?
“Come unto Me all of “you” that are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest….”
God gives you a choice?
“Suppose a man says to God,
‘I am guilty but will offend no more.
Teach me what I cannot see;
if I have done wrong, I will not do so again.’
Should God then reward you on your terms,
when you refuse to repent?
You must decide, not I;
so tell me what you know.” (Job 34:32,33)
You decide? (What a novel idea.)
IronClad
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It’s Tony Alamo tracts that we always used to get on our cars in Memphis. — Laura
Ah, yes. “Holy Alamo Christian Church Inc” or whatever they’re calling themselves these days. From the Jesus People movement of the Sixties to Kooks: A Guide to the Outer Limits of Human Belief to meltdown. Didn’t know they were still around.