Regarding devastating circumstances, I think the only response anyone should have time for is to join in helping those afflicted by such disasters. Chances are God has alread dispatched some angels to terra firma to get busy and get involved.

I’m boycotting professional christians who pontificate squares into circles, diseases into blessings, and natural disasters into just desserts.

I don’t know if I’ve mentioned on here before, but I’m a PhD student working on flooding – natural disasters and hazards are what I do every day. And it’s things like these from Piper that drive me absolutely bonkers! I’ve sat in the homes of people whose homes were flooded in Brisbane last year, I’ve walked through the abandoned houses, the houses due to be demolished because the structures are unsound. Piper’s comments are so ignorant and offensive.

The way he characterises these disasters as completely unpredictable and almost arbitrary is completely false, too. Natural hazards are actually quite predictable and quantifiable. Sure, some are more predictable than others, some are more likely to occur ‘unexpectedly’, but they are still broadly predictable in that we know what regions are flood prone, we know which are tornado prone, we know which are hurricane prone, and so forth. It is quite rare for a completely unexpected hazard to emerge (earthquakes can be like this, the Christchurch earthquakes, for example, occurred on a previously unknown fault). As an aside, from the perspective of my own research, this sort of thinking – that these unpredictable events are warnings from God – makes planning for them harder. Once you recognise and quantify a risk, you make decisions based on that. If you see it as something you’re powerless about, then you’ll be unprepared. And believe me, those who are unprepared when a disaster strikes are much more badly affected than those who knew and prepared for the risk.

So I put this sort of stuff in the crazy bin. I can understand that people once thought like this when we really didn’t know much about hazards, risk, and disaster, but we’re pretty knowledgeable now. We don’t need superstition.

It really disturbs me when Christian pastors make pronouncements on the causes of tragedies. And one of their favourite ’causes’ is homosexuality.

Here in South Africa, on 16 August, 34 striking miners were shot dead by police in Marikana. Pastor Errol Naidoo, of the Family Policy Institute, released a newsletter in which he blamed the massacre on ‘radical feminists’, ‘abortion-on-demand’ and the ‘homosexual agenda’.

http://www.familypolicyinstitute.com/newsitem.php?newsID=111

To this simpleton, the man is mentally, or emotionally ill. How he has as many worshippers as he does, I’ll never understand! Besides the tragic death of his mother, I wonder just how many tragedies he’s actually walked through with people. I can’t fathom having him as a pastor, or a friend. An arrogant prig who thinks HE knows the mind of God? No thank you!

Well personally it seems to me inevitable that the cause of Hurricane Irene is the wickedness of Tampa in allowing the Republicans to hold their convention there.

Arrant nonsense of course but so is trying to tie any natural disaster as the "punishment of God". And of course deeply offensive to those who suffer. And as far as I can see explicitly disallowed by Jesus himself.

In the words of Job – “though He slay me, yet will I serve Him.” The alternative is to believe that he is NOT in control.

I have found in my life that these matters best belong to God, that He does not owe us an explanation for tragedies. You can make yourself crazy trying to reconcile free will and sovereignty – people have tried to do this for millennia. God is not the author of sin. He created this world and there are natural disasters totally out of human control. Both believers and unbelievers die. Piper is correct in emphasizing that God knows all things and that tragedies should make people think that their time on earth is short.

You can’t go the other extreme either, and just believe that PEOPLE are in control.

Um, should someone point out to ‘defend proclaim the faith’ that Genesis quite clearly says God created the world in six days, not seven? He rested on the seventh.

1. Didn’t Piper also say that God made the bridge collapse because He wants John Piper (personally) to repent? Besides the fact that this comes off as monumentally self-centered, why is he talking as though he needs to be saved? Presumably he’s saved already, if he’s a nationally known pastor. So why does he see God threatening him with death, if he’s already covered by the blood of Christ and “there is no condemnation”?

2. I REALLY don’t like his phraseology about Jesus “taking lives” in Missouri.

3. All that being said – I wouldn’t be too hard on him per the ELCA tornado. It’s my understanding that that tornado came out a clear blue sky on a day with no predicted bad weather, lasted only minutes, killed/injured nobody, and ONLY did damage to the cross on the steeple of Central Lutheran. If God was going to warn someone about their course of action, that’s how I would picture Him doing it – ironically with no loss of life. Note that I’m not saying that it was absolutely God’s judgment. I just wanted to point out the HUGE difference between that tornado, and other two disasters Piper commented (inappropriately) on.

It was this very crazy view of God’s Sovereignty that was the final straw for my husband and me at our former SGM church.

There seems to be no way around this. Either we must concede that God at least allows evil to happen, as in, he could have stopped it but he didn’t, or, he is incapable of stopping evil, and therefore is an impotent weakling who can’t possibly save us.

Calvinists reconcile this theodicy problem by an emphasis on God’s sovereignty. It is their primary theological category to which all others must answer. I propose that this is the wrong primary category, you should start with the cross instead.

A more rational approach is a closer examination of the nature of evil. I believe that evil is not a thing, a substance, that can be resisted or eradicated. To label evil a substance is like the prohibitionists, who thought alcohol was evil and eradicating it would be a triumph of righteousness. I propose that evil is nothing more than something good which has been corrupted. A faulty bridge was a corrupted version of a good bridge. Selfish humanity is a corruption of God’s original, good creation of mankind.

There are other problems, like Isaiah 45:7 where in the King James God pretty much says “I create evil.” According to R. C. Sproul, the word for “evil” in the OT can be as diverse as the evil of Hitler to the evil taste of broccoli, and the better translation would be for God to say “I bring calamity.” Well that softens the blow, but that is still makes God seem a bit harsh.

Here’s how I deal with that one: God does at time cause calamity, but he does not cause every single one that has ever happened. We have specific Biblical accounts of how some were caused directly by Satan instead (see Job). So how are we to know the difference? How are we to know that this tragedy was wrought by God as a judgement, or this one by Satan as a trial? It’s easy. Hath God sent a divinely inspired prophet to connect the dots? Is there a clear word from God on the subject? No? Then it should not be up to you to play the role of Elijah. Try the good Samaritan instead.

I suggest that Piper has an Elijah complex.

Here’s another example of arrogance regarding calamities.

http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/blog/?p=2429 — Deb

All I can say is whoever wrote that was more into Bible Code Numerological Calculations than Harold Camping. (And Camping was pretty high up the crazy tree.)

God says He’s not the author of evil, so that’s that. He’s not.

Job teaches that Satan cannot bring his evil upon someone without God’s permission. That settles that, for me.

If God is not to blame for what I perceive as evil, it’s not because of my perception of evil, it’s because He said so, independent of my sin-clouded spiritual vision.

God is absolutely sovereign, and He is right to do or allow whatsoever He chooses. It is only my sinful state .. and that of all mankind, methinks, that prevents me from fully comprehending that. Some day, I think we’ll see it. But not in this life.

God gives warning to His people?

    Hello, 

Eagle: “There was no warning by God on the I-35 bridge collapse. There was no warning by God when Tornadoes hit Minneapolis or Indiana this spring.”

    A friend was to catch a Minneapolis flight, but missed it for some reason.  With that missed flight, all aboard were killed.  Providence? She always thought so, as if God were saving her. She never forgot it. Neither have I forgotten the story. Why she was spared, and others were not, well, omniscience is not one of my skill sets. I am just glad He did. She has been a blessing to me, and my family.

I certainly have a lot to be thankful for.

How about you?

IronClad

Brothers and sisters…I implore you. You know why you are at this blog. You KNOW something is wrong with Piper and friends and what they teach. You may not be able to put your finger on it…but somehow, you just know something is off. Of course, it’s easy to not think…just shrug and say, well, it’s all in God’s hands.

Brothers and sisters, in love I say that false humility is not an excuse to stop thinking! So let’s get out from behind our notions of false humility and utter slavishness to hypocritical reformed ideas and THINK!

Of COURSE sin is out of God’s control. Sin is a byproduct of MAN’S consciousness and ability to CHOOSE. What are we saying when we say SIN is under God’s control? God’s control is utterly perfect…God’s control then MUST mean that God IS sinning. In the case of Joseph’s brothers, what Piper is saying when he says God “meant it” is that Joseph’s brothers HAD no choice but to sin because they were being led inexorably by God to SIN. In other words, the man in the equation is removed…God’s control of MAN mean’s that man merely becomes the INSTRUMENT by which GOD does, and in this case, that does is SIN. To say the brothers had no choice but to sin means God sinned through them. Brothers and sisters…look at what this doctrine of “sovereignty” really is saying! Behind the false pleas to God’s omnipotence and our depravity, look at what it means. If God produces GOOD it is because God IS Good, thus if God PRODUCES SIN this means that we are saying God IS SIN.

SIN thus IS always in spite of God, NEVER BECAUSE of Him.

Qua??? I don’t understand John Piper at all. If God controls everything (including whether bridges collapse) then how could tornadoes be a “warning” to people who were sinning—because, under his paradigm, God is causing or allowing that sinful state in order to show his glory. Why does he need to warn people about something that He is in charge of in their lives?

I know there is probably a technical answer for this, but this is one of the many reasons why I see total predestination as having too many logical loopholes and mental gymnastics to be true. This is just silly.

Argo said: “To say the brothers had no choice but to sin means God sinned through them”

AMEN!! Otherwise WE are not to blame. WE are not guilty. It’s not OUR sin. HE is accountable; not US. WE, like Adam, can blame God for our sin.

John said: “Yes, What God permits, He purposes…”

No…God takes what man meant for evil and brings good out of it. It’s all things working together….

Argo, BINGO on both comments.

As to natural disasters….that is because of a fallen world. A corrupt earth which God will redeem one day. But the absolute false teaching that guys like Piper perpetuate leaves man totally irresponsible for his actions. And that means those who dismiss sin as normal for those who are believers. We are to protect children, work for justice, etc. And I am not talking about a “social” Gospel. I am talking about the basics of sanctification if we really do have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

People are checking their brains at the door and believing guys like Piper. They think it sounds so pious and exhalts God to say these things. They accuse us of elevating man over God. They also hate the enlightenment and call it evil. But it is just the opposite. It communicates an insecure God who has to direct every event for us to make His way happen.

There is no room for thinking in their fatalistic determinist God paradigm except for the few anointed ones like Piper who perpetuate the lies about God.

(I love what one wag said: The Founding Fathers had John Calvin in mind when they wrote of oppression from the church/state, Divine right of kings)

There’s an insight I find relevant here that comes from the book *Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility* by James P. Carse.

http://www.amazon.com/Finite-Infinite-Games-Vision-Possibility/dp/0345341848/ref=la_B000AQ00SQ_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346434233&sr=1-1

He talks about how “finite games” involve extreme black-and-white thinking, and competition, and win/lose scenarios, and removing players from the game. Meanwhile, “infinite games” are about how to keep everyone in the game, about cooperation and collaboration instead of competition, of win/win scenarios where all players benefit to one degree or another.

So, what if we see difficulties and even disasters not as God causing them (which would be a “finite game” perspective) … but God doing providential twists behind the scenes to minimize the damage that would have occurred otherwise – an “infinite game” perspective. This would mean that God is not the author of evil, but takes sin and evil and natural disasters and accidents and illnesses etc., that happen and brings in a surprising and redemptive edge. An infinite game perspective looks at the same scene, same details of a disaster, but finds a very different scenario and interpretations within it.

When it comes to the evil of spiritual abuse, here’s how I think I’ve possibly seen this in action. I’ve observed where some clearly “malignant ministers” want to be the big fish in a big pond in order to expand their power and influence. What happens instead is that they’ve ended up in a small pond that sort of chokes out their ambitions or otherwise minimizes their negative, abusive impact on others (but doesn’t fully remove it) or minimizes the number of people hurt. Sometimes these abusive leaders end up completely isolated and lose almost all opportunities for ministry. These tend to be very intelligent people, but still, they sort of get stuck in their own spider-web devices. And that’s because it’s not about smarts, it’s about God overruling their abusive impact to a greater or lesser degree, and in ways that being smart or charming or manipulative cannot get them out of it because the sins have become obvious.

This pattern emerged after I watched some abusive leaders seem to flourish for a few years, others for a full decade or more, and all the while I was wondering why God didn’t just kick them out of ministry immediately, once and for all, amen. But then, I had to step back and think it through. Do I really believe that God loves that person who woefully misused a position of authority to mess over the lives of many other people? If so, then somehow His solution actually BOTH kept the abusive person in the game with the *possibility* of repentance ever before them AND also minimized the depth or breadth of damage that person could otherwise have caused. (Infinite games require both/and thinking.)

Evil exists everywhere because we are broken and sinful people, because the societies we create are flawed to greater or lesser degrees, and because Satan is a person who exists and opposes all humans and seeks to destroy us through lies. Somehow, we have to consider how God sovereignly rules over this messy situation while loving all people, despising death, and trumping evil to keep as many people as possible “in the game” in ways that ultimately are more win/win than win/lose.

It’s those provocative providential clues about how He’s doing this – mostly behind the scenes – that keeps me reflecting on the questions. Meanwhile, I believe Mr. Piper gives false answers to the same questions and causes damage to people’s heart and live.

John with respect the logical leap from “am I not in the place I’m supposed to be” to God manifests sin using people as his instruments is at best an impossible one. And you can twist semantics and use terms to soften the blow of what the doctrine is actually is saying all you want. There is in fact no difference in the metaphysical conclusion between the word “purposes” and “does”. If God ‘purposes’, what we are saying is that the thing must inevitably come to pass…there is no other option. And who is the driving force behind this inexorable outcome? Only one thing can “purpose” beyond question: God. So just be honest about what you’re saying when you say God ‘purposes’ sin: what you are saying is God commits sin. When God means for something to happen, it happens! Thus, God cannot ‘purpose’ something and then claim He is not the author of it. If you say He can, then you make Him a liar too. What I am saying is that sin CAN and DOES happen even though God does not want it too. If you say this is an affront to His sovereignty you make Him the author of evil. No one has to sin. People choose to sin and then curse God for it…which is satanic at it’s root. God’s purpose is only Himself, thus we must be free because it is impossible that God would create the infallible and sinful to achieve Himself; that is as rediculous as it is false. In other words, to say he purposes sin to that end, Himself, is blasphemy.

Much of this attributing of natural disasters and accidents and disease and such-like to God doesn’t sound a whole lot different from the language I hear in animism, attributing evil to the work of spirits. So you must somehow appease the spirits (perhaps in Mr. Piper’s case, by “being good” and “not sinning so much”?) so they stop bothering you. That is what a fear-based culture is about.

Umm … I thought that in the resurrection, Jesus Christ triumphed over Satan …

I live in the Midwest, and we get a whole stinking LOT of tornadoes, and so when they come, I never think that it’s some unusual message coming from God. — Sad Observer

I live in Southern California, and it’s the same thing here with earthquakes. Though there is low-grade fear of “The Big One”, the earthquake equivalent of an F5 tornado ripping through a densely-populated downtown.

Funny thing. Most Tornado Alley denizens think we’re crazy to live in Earthquake Country because “an earthquake is everywhere”. And we think they’re crazy because a tornado does a lot heavier concentrated damage.

Much of this attributing of natural disasters and accidents and disease and such-like to God doesn’t sound a whole lot different from the language I hear in animism, attributing evil to the work of spirits. So you must somehow appease the spirits (perhaps in Mr. Piper’s case, by “being good” and “not sinning so much”?) so they stop bothering you. -_ Brad Futurist Guy

Don’t forget one step beyon “appeasing the spirits”:

“Imprecatory Prayer(TM)” where you call upon God to destroy your enemies. Just like a Karcist calling upon spirits to put a curse on someone. How does that differ from Magick with a “k”?

Didn’t Piper also say that God made the bridge collapse because He wants John Piper (personally) to repent? — Hester

Because He, JOHN PIPER, is SOOOOO IMPORTANT God collapsed the bridge (or that tower in Siloam) and killed all those people just to send Mr Important a message?

Our family has suffered some terrible tragedies, and been spared so many more, so far.

My take is multifold:

There may be instances where God knows the greater good will be accomplished by sending what from human perspective is a great tragedy. We grieve, but still God is good in doing so.

There may be other instances where He chooses not to prevent a tragedy that is caused by sin, by living in a fallen world, or by something as simple as a corroded bolt. I live trusting He knew before it happened and saw the greatest good would be served by allowing the tragedy.

I also believe there are times He does not intervene because He usually allows the consequences of our actions. It may be an action as simple as great grandpa choosing to build on a site that will be hit by a tornado 150 years hence. In those times, I believe He comforts and walks with us.

So whatever the situation, sent by God, allowed by God with a purpose, or simply allowed by God I trust His hand to hold me and Him to be with me through it.

If you believe, as it appears that Jesus taught, that praying will result in a different outcome, then you cannot believe as Piper teaches, because he teaches that everything that happens is in accord with the PLAN. No variation, no change.

If you believe that God listens to prayer and things happen differently, the Calvinistas will call you an Open Theist, which they believe is a nicer term for “heretic”.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy on Fri Aug 31, 2012 at 02:40 PM said: Mr. Piper is “more Calvinist than Calvin.”

Made me think of the Tyrell Corporation slogan, “More human than human.” Chilling thought, that …

@ Eagle Fri Aug 31, 2012 at 03:12 PM said: “Often times what John Piper is doing is using the sovereignty of God to shut people up.”

That makes me think that playing “the God card” isn’t all that much different from playing “the Bible card” (e.g., “It’s clearly and obviously and undeniably biblical that …) or “the gospel card.”

I wonder where the dividing lines are between stating something reasonable and true about what God seems to be doing, versus usurping authority by claiming to know what God is doing. I think those boundaries are in play here.

Argo –

What do you think the “totally depraved” brethren do with the commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself?” It appears one has to KNOW how to love ones self before he can properly love his neighbor. Does that mean we can apply the “love is” verses to ourselves? Or is that selfish and sinful? All people don’t naturally love themselves.

um… Hurricane Irene did a TON of damage to the East Coast last year, mostly well north of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Linda,

I share your view.

I would rather trust a God I do not understand, but who I believe has total control of everything than understand a God who does not hold everything in his hand.

But whether God “causes” or whether he “allows”, hmmm…. I understand the debate about that.

In the bible, God caused clamities but everyone knew that it was God’s judgment. How come Piper is the only one who knows that this is God’s “judgment.” — Stormy

Because God has Piper on speed-dial. Piper has the direct pipeline of Sekrit Speshul Knowledge (“Occult Gnosis” in Greek).

What is the deal with these preachers? Love has become a four letter word. It appears they like the “damnation” word a whole lot better. — Dee

OK. Here’s something I encountered last year.

About a year ago, a My Little Pony fanfic titled Past Sins connected with me on a deep emotional level. (Yeah. Colorful cartoon ponies. Weirder things have happened.) The story is about a “Reluctant Antichrist”; what happens when a prophesied Antichrist figure is summoned by a diabolical cult and comes, but doesn’t want to be the Antichrist or end the world? She just wants to live a life?

Later in the Brony (Pony fandom) community, I met the author, a college student who writes under the pen name of Pen Stroke. In both podcasts and in-person, he said the reason he wrote the story was to Redeem the major villain/Antichrist figure of the initial pilot two-parter (whose coming will End the World in Eternal Night). And he did it by having said villain/Antichrist figure “born again” in a way. And a climax that brought to mind the Baptismal Promises I recite every Easter Vigil mass — “Do you reject Satan? And all his works? And all his empty promises? Do you reject the glamour of Evil?”

All I can say is while all these preacher-men are so quick to damn to Eternal Hell, a 22-year-old lapsed Lutheran wrote a decent 800-page novel to redeem the Antichrist figure of the ponies’ world. Their Antichrist!

@ Laura:

“On the day a disembodied hand appears and writes ‘YOU HAVE BEEN WEIGHED IN THE BALANCE AND FOUND WANTING’ on the side of Yankee Stadium in front of everybody, I will believe someone telling me that God is directly causing something. Until then, not.”

I just can’t help myself – surely you aren’t implying that God is a Red Sox fan? ; ) Don’t worry, being a baseball agnostic, I won’t kill you if you think He is.

“Because God has Piper on speed-dial,” LOL,LOL

JJ – about Errol Naidoo:
I wrote a piece on my Afrikaans blog, in which I say his blaming gays for Marikana is false testimony. (His argument is that they create a culture of death by not procreating. In that case single missionaries, the apostle Paul and even Jesus himself created a culture of death!)
His pet topic is to blame feminism for everything – including abortion and apparently homosexuality. I once wrote him a friendly letter, citing the dictionary definition of feminism (1- the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes; 2- organized activity on behalf of women’s rights and interests) and equired about how his opposition to feminism seem to contradict other things he say. He replied that he does not use the dictionary definition of the word feminist.
If you do not use the dictionary definition of a word, you have no business using the word:
>I swim better than Phelps. (But I do not use the dictionary definition of swim)
>Errol Naidoo is a murderer (But I do not use the dictionary definition of murderer.)

Jimmy, Great point about Edwards. One of them was Aaron Burr a notorious adulterer and seducer of women but famous for his duel with Hamilton. Another I read about recently was a woman descendent ordained by the Presbyterian church as a minister. :o) (Some of those academic descendents became Unitarians which is where a lot of the Puritan descendents ended up, too. Wonder why)

Read Marsden’s bio of Edwards and the gruesome suicides that happened with those who were being discipled by Edwards after claiming to be Born Again. Weird stuff the Reformers never talk about. Kinda like the evil stuff they ignore about Calvin.

Just sayin’ it ain’t all roses. We need to always present both sides of history.

“never” would be a strong word, Anon 1. If that “never” were true then we’d never see people in the 21st century defending the views of R. L. Dabney, now would we? 😉

One and the same group can be heroic in one setting and villainous in another. American Indians can look at how Catholics and Protestants dealt with them and consider that detestable (because it was, for the most part). The Orthodox missionaries were way nicer. But then if we looked at how the Orthodox dealt with the Poles … they don’t come off so sweetly.

In a setting like the UK where the Anglican church had some controversies and issues the Puritans could play a significant role. Even J. I. Packer has said that the most important thing about the Puritan legacy in England was they failed to pull off even a single one of the reforms they went for. That was good for them. Arguably the Puritan legacy in America may have spiraled into weirdness because whereas in England they pretty much failed (at least according to Packer) in the U.S. they had a lot of success. And for folks who read the Bible there’s nothing that makes a heart rotten quite like success and comfort.

I may be a Calvinist and all but there’s no way I’m going to endorse postmillenialism just because some people think Edwards was cool. It’s still amillenial partial preterism for me. On the other hand John Edwards could read Song of Songs and find something in there besides oral sex and wifely stripteases so in that respect the neo-Calvinists could learn from that example. I have a particular new Calvinist in mind, of course.

Retha

Good on you for challenging Errol Naidoo on those views! He’s shown that he doesn’t want to engage with reason or fact and will stick with whatever supports his own agenda. Makes me think of Doug Wilson’s made-up definitions of the words ‘colonize’ and ‘conquer’…

My opinion of Piper has definitely taken a plunge in the past couple years, and this site has provided some of the info which has led to it. When he deigns to tell us exactly why God caused/allowed a disaster to occur, he has dropped to the Pat Robertson level. And there are other ridiculous (or worse) things Piper has said and done, esp. in recent years.

HSAT, there is something I think we should be wary of: Deciding what God is willing to do or capable of doing based on our ways of seeing, and feeling, things. (Piper himself does this too much.) This comes naturally to us: We are very familiar with our own ways of thinking and feeling, and are therefore inclined to make decisions based on them. We may make some concessions to the difficult parts of Scripture, but, in the end, return to our familiar positions, particularly when strong emotions are involved.

deb, I’ve been in accidents, but never in one as horrific as the one you have described. I can only try to imagine what it, and the long-term effects, have been like. As far as God possibly causing it, I think we’re in the dark. But you also wrote that “to believe [God] could have prevented it (and chose not to) is unfathomable for me.” I can understand that. Hell is unfathomable to *me*. But it seems to me that there is enough evidence in Scripture to back up what seems unfathomable to us in these cases.

If God is genuinely omniscient and omnipotent, He’s aware of everything that could be prevented and He is capable of preventing it. That includes everything from slipping on a banana peel to the Holocaust. Can we reconcile this to Scripture’s declaration that God is love? Maybe, maybe not. But I believe that Scripture has to have the final word, whether or not we’re comfortable with it. Of course, we can try to stretch or change the meanings of words that distress us, but that could be perilous.

I’m aware that some parts of Scripture are not as clear as others. But when the Bible speaks clearly, I think that, as believers, we must heed it over our own beliefs. And realize that God can be good in ways that we don’t necessarily associate with being good. His ways are not ours, but I don’t think they are beyond reason.

I want to bring up the concept of American exceptionalism – the idea that the US somehow attracts the special attention of God. I want to know why God is not sending disasters on Syria, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or a whole load of other oppressive regimes. Why do other countries get away with evil, but America can’t step out of line without being punished? Perhaps Piper can tell me that…

” After the inflight fight with the Mackinistas who want to aim for Microsoft HQ or Bill Gates’s mansion — “MAC IS THE SUPERIOR SYSTEM! APPLE AKBAR! APPLE AKBAR!” ”

Umm … HUG … you say that like that would be a bad thing. Don’t you know? Windows IS the virus.

I see no gospel, no “good news”, in that tweet at all. Wow.

Dear Eagle,

Your comment ends up with: “If that’s Christianity I have something I’d like to say….

To hell with it. To hell with Jesus, God, and faith. To hell with John Piper. I am not going to part of a faith system that is so sick. Nor will I be involved in such a perverse system. No agnosticism and atheism is robust, healthy and a healthy alternative to Christianity. At least as an agnostic I can show more love and grace than one can in Christianity.”

Eagle, apparently, you do not know the TRUE CHRISTIANITY. True Christianity is Christ, who is altogether lovely. It’s not a religion but a personal, intimate relationship with the Son of God Jesus Christ. To know Christ, not about Christ, is the most important thing.

There are many learned men, women who study, teach, preach, write about Christianity but they may be unlearned Christians. May you know the Christ of God and the beauty of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s my prayer to you.

I like this comment from sad observer:

“Being sovereign means you HAVE the power. It doesn’t imply how you will USE it, or whether you will allow others to use their power apart from your intervention at times.”

In the universe, there are God, good angels, Satan and his demons, sin, fallen men and women, fallen creation (tainted by the fall of Adam) and what we experience may have to do with any or all of these; so, it’s not simple as it seems. Dr. john Piper is extreme in his interpretation of calamity and as I said before, I do not like the extremes of anything.

In the US history, there was a man who said “extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.” This man lost the election that year! You know whom I am talking about.

When we talk about nations and destiny, I have to remind myself of the words of Romans 3, “all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Has there ever been a nation on earth which did not do things as a nation that was at one time or another deserving of God’s condemnation?

@ Ian,

Clint Eastwood can tell you all you need to know about American exceptionalism.

@ Laura- thanks for that, I too ‘feel’ that way, which is why Calvinism’s double-speak bothers me, but I have learnt not to trust myself via teachings about my depravity, it’s like being pre-innoculated…I’m just at a low right now about which sources of knowledge are trustworthy – my feelings, Biblical words, other people’s thoughts…everything seems too shaky to bear the weight of infinity & eternity. I need rebooting.

Wow, Piper is obsessed over God’s wrath. The tweet is disturbing.

I’ve almost come to the opinion that politicans and ministers should never tweet!

@ Bridget, Kolya~

Third.

@Anon 1~

“Piper is obsessed with being a shock jock. It is how he gets attention and keeps his name out there.”

And since, according to him, we are to “be done” (extinguish, terminate, cease) with our sentimental views of how God loves, I shudder to think of the reality that just might lurk behind all the passion for God and enjoying God talk of which he speaks and writes.

Yup – God had so little “sentimental love” for Israel that He sent Jesus down here to save, not just them, but the Gentiles too. And when they spurned Him yet again, He still didn’t blast them off the face of the planet (which He had every right to do after having them spit in His face how many times?). Evidently those verses about God being patient and slow to anger are actually TRUE.

Anon 1 – I don’t think *any* of the patriarchs come off particularly well in the Genesis stories. All had obvious flaws and those are related pretty bluntly.

Agreed that nobody takes Jacob to task, at least not in the circles I used to be in, but then, they rarely talk about what Jacob did to disinherit Esau, either…

Hester – *totally* agreed on the whole “descendants of prominent families in early New England.” I don’t think there’s anything exceptional about Edwards’ family line per se, except perhaps that many of them were well-off enough to be able to afford costly educations. Am not saying this to belittle anyone’s achievements, but it would be more than possible to do the same kind of lineage-tracing in the mid-Atlantic states, VA, etc.

Ian (pt. 2) – for some reason, British israelitism just popped into my head.

There are some of them in the US (US born and bred), believe it or not.

@ Numo:

It’s amazing how much the generational blessings/curses thinking is ingrained in some American evangelical circles. Case in point: I do genealogy and my family busts a lot of myths. Most everybody lives to be at least 70, the women are all at least literate by 1850 (unlike the men), and there are multiple generations with 8+ children who all survive to adulthood. I did a presentation on “genealogical mythbusting” for our homeschool group once and one woman asked me, in all sincerity, if someone way back in my family had been a Christian and “prayed down” generational blessings on my family. Because the myths/stereotypes of an automatic 45-year lifespan, illiterate women, and every family losing 5+ children to curable diseases couldn’t possibly be wrong or overstated. The ONLY explanation is direct intervention by the hand of God Himself.

On genealogy and blessings and so forth, I think my maternal grandfather’s family puts paid to all of that. There’s doctors, lawyers, engineers. academics, and even a concert violinist. All descended from an Irish convict sent out to Australia for the crime of blasphemy. Surely if anyone’s descendents should be cursed, it should be the man guilty of blasphemy (who then opened up an illegal bar when he got here)?

Is this “generational blessing” thing perhaps related to Doug Phillips’ 200 year plans?
(BTW, I once attended a course – it’s from an American organization, but presented in my own country – called the “Ancient paths seminar” in which they also said you should break curses that come from your parents; you should bless your children; and they used that Jonathan Edwards story, plus the name of a criminal who had a lot of prostitutes and criminals as descendants.
The approach was gendered too – they said that if X happens to a boy, it affects him this way, if the same happens to a girl, it affects her that way, and they said that about a lot of things.)

@ Kolya:

Yes, you are exactly right – Ezekiel 18. The whole chapter is a pretty pointed refutation of generational blessings and curses.

“The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, ‘What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”? As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.’ …

‘Yet you say, “Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father”? Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.'”

Take that, Dougie.

I believe you may speak the truth. However, to make sure we are not confusing two things here, I will mention the Ancient Paths course I spoke of came from an organisation called “Family Foundation International.” The group, if I recall right, has a branch/ sister called “Marriage ministries International.”

I did that course years ago, by now I know better.

If nothing else, there is a connecting *ideology* re. what Lou Engel (and others) espouse and what the FFI says.

That’s not surprising, given the popularity of many NAR authors/speakers here during the early 1990s. I went to a church that was seeded with NAR fans (very much including the “pastor”) and was not surprised to find that one of the leading authors cited several so-called “case studies” that involved church members (in one of his very over-the-top books on the subject).

I could go on, but hey – it’s not news to you, nor, I suspect, to many who read and comment here.

I was involved with the “strategic prayer” and “spiritual mapping” movements for a while, and concluded that it was basically abiblical and perhaps even anti-biblical (for using biblical language but twisting a lot of Bible verses and concepts that taken out of context) and that it, in effect, created *formulas* for breaking curses and spiritual strongholds for cities, geographical regions, nations, people groups, etc. Some of the generational curses stuff is the same premise, applied to individuals and their family lines. And many key adherents of these practices are connected with the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).

There are a lot of formulaic kinds of things in the NAR movement and in other kinds of revamps of the Shepherding Movement often associated with NAR celebs. It’s about “taking authority” (over demonic spirits) and alignment with human authorities, and breaking curses and bondages in people and places, so we supposedly “release” things for God to work according to His authority. And in some cases, it really does go to that extreme of God being bound until we do ABC and XYZ. Formulas to manipulate God to act how we think He should. Some people who talk about these concepts sound almost the same as some pagans and wiccans I’ve spoken with and/or whose books I’ve read, who have rituals to “redeem” the place where evil has happened and rituals to gain the force of nature to be on their side, etc.

I know I’m pulling this passage out of context, but I’m using it to show the difference between self-determination and curse-determination (is that a word?). While I believe there is a sort of spiritual DNA from our parents and relatives farther back, that can influence our formation but guarantees nothing. In terms of our actions, we are each ultimately responsible for our own choices and their consequences. Can’t say, “It’s my parents fault,” which apparently is what is being referred to in Jeremiah 31: 29-30.

29 “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes — their own teeth will be set on edge. [NIV, biblegateway.com]

Of course, I suppose that people who believe in a strong form of determinism that is fatalistic will have some kind of formula to explain God’s supposed judgments, regardless of whether their theology is Pentecostal NAR or Hyper-Reformed Piperism.

And this is not to deny that God can/does control nature and override its usual cycles. And this is not to deny the influence of spiritual, cultural, and genetic influences through families. Nor the presence and power of demonic forces. Just to say that if we’re about formulas and rituals, we may not be about freedom or responsibility.

There are a lot of formulaic kinds of things in the NAR movement and in other kinds of revamps of the Shepherding Movement often associated with NAR celebs. It’s about “taking authority” (over demonic spirits) and alignment with human authorities, and breaking curses and bondages in people and places, so we supposedly “release” things for God to work according to His authority. And in some cases, it really does go to that extreme of God being bound until we do ABC and XYZ. Formulas to manipulate God to act how we think He should. — Brad Futurist Guy

Brad, does the “ABC” and “XYZ” involve chanted words, wands, athemes, and properly inscribed pentacles? And when they “take authority over demonic spirits”, is the demonic spirit held in a proper Summoning Circle with the proper Incanation? Which spells are used? From which grimoires?

Because “formulas to manipulate God/gods/spirits to act how we think He/they should” is the essence of Magick (Aliester Crowley’s spelling, used deliberately).

Headless Unicorn Guy.

Not chanted words, wands, etc etc. But in analyzing what is underneath the Christians’ language and actions related to binding/loosing, breaking curses, taking authority, etc., I find striking similarities when comparing this kind of Christian paradigm to the paradigm underneath certain forms of paganism and yes, Magick. That is exactly what I am suggesting. It seems to border on Christopaganism, Christoshamanism, Christian animism, depending on the language and the essence of the actions.

I’m not the first to notice this and suggest that it is, in effect, a problem of religious syncretism. The book, *Spiritual Power and Missions: Raising the Issues* explores questions raised by three practitioner-theologian/pastors along the exact same lines as I mentioned. They were deeply disturbed by the very loose “biblical” justification for such a theology, and were wondering if at least some people in the strategic prayer movement etc were actually functioning as “Christian animists.” The response by missiologist Charles Kraft in particular struck me as an emotional defense of his perspective and didn’t deal with the specifics of the theology or the practices these three pastor were critiquing.

Anyway, for those who may want to consider these issues in more detail, here is a link to a tutorial I did on “theodicy” – overviewing some perspectives on how God relates with good and evil, and the topics of spiritual warfare, spiritual mapping, etc.

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-14/

There is a link in the middle of that tutorial to *Spiritual Power and Missions*, and at the end of the article, to a critique of the “Transformations” video which purports to share the stories of places where these kinds of spiritual mapping and strategic praying techniques were used. (Someone did follow-up research and found that the case studies weren’t all they were claimed to be.)

P.S. Here in the U.S., there was a huge earthquake in southern California in, like, the 1990s, and a lot of Christians were talking about how it hit the area where a lot of pornography is produced. So, it was tied in with themes of sin and judgment and warning and such.

I can’t remember exactly who said this, but someone did research and found that while the epicenter of the earthquake was somewhat near the porn center of Southern Calif., it didn’t cripple the industry at all. They said something like, “Well, God certainly didn’t do a surgical strike, did He?”

Kind of goes back to what Mr. Piper is implying, a sort of formula for prophetic interpreting of what sins and whose moved (caused?) God to act with a natural disaster. How many of these are likely, not exactly a surgical strike, because the ones harmed are rarely the ones who supposedly sinned and caused the event to happen.

Hi Brad,

That was a good series of postcards, don’t worry 🙂

Seriously, I take your point.

Funny how an earthquake in Los Angeles can apparently have nothing to do with the San Andreas Fault.

Funny how an earthquake in Los Angeles can apparently have nothing to do with the San Andreas Fault. — Pam

The San Andreas is just the largest fault going through the area (actually passing some 60-100km north of the city itself, on the other side of the San Gabriel Mountains). There’s a crazy quilt of secondary faults on both sides of the San Andreas, mostly paralleling the main fault line, and those go off too. The entire plate boundary is full of cracks and faults running deep and wide, some of them extending dozens of klicks away but most of them paralleling the San Andreas.

Pam –

In my case, and I believe HUG’s, your speaking to the choir when it comes to the San Andeas and its babies 🙂

Brad – I was in a D.C.-area church where there were (still are) close ties to George Otis Jr. and his organization.

After a while, i started to think that there were some truly loony things going on at this place. and then they booted me, though not for questioning that stuff. (Long, long story.)

They liked to go out and pray over the original boundary stones of the District of Columbia and whatnot. All quite creepy.

It’s taken me about a decade to detox, what with one thing and another. Looking back, it’s both hard for me to believe that I accepted many of the things they were saying, and, at the same time, all too easy.

In late 2005-early 2006, I started looking for info. (from a critical pov) on the NAR, etc. but had difficulty finding anything that came from a perspective that wasn’t equally skewed. And then talk2action.org published a terrific series of analyses in 2008, during the presidential campaign, on both the NAR and S. Palin’s ties to it.

So many pieces of the puzzle fell into place for me then.

P.P.S.: i think your comparison to animism is very good… though I’d also have to say that I believe the hardcore NAR/3d Wave adherents are, at bedrock level, dualists, since they perceive the world in terms of a cosmic struggle between good and evil. (A la Zoroastrianism.)

The thing is, all that binding/loosing, “spiritual warfare” stuff makes people feel like they’re important, since the world is, to them, a cosmic battlefield in which they aren’t just pawns, but channels of God’s power.

In many ways, it is a real-life RPG.

@ numo. You nailed it. I used “animist” partly because that’s what the *Spiritual Powers* book used, and partly because the essence of animism really is a “demon behind every bush,” as every concrete thing in the world is inhabited and “animated” by a spiritual force.

But I actually think this extreme take-off on spiritual warfare is closer to a revised/revived form of dualistic Zoroastrianism or gnostic aeons – with good and evil powers on opposite sides, and humanity sort of neutral and caught in the middle and which ever force pulls on them stronger, like some good or evil magnet, is the one that dominates them. The more drawn to one side or the other a human is in the cosmic tug-of-war over his/her life, the harder it is to escape and go to the other side.

These external forces which control people just isn’t the same as the biblical concept of the disciple’s choice between the old nature and fallenness and the new nature and following Jesus. There’s maybe a lot of similar language between the two, but the emphasis is so overwhelmingly on the external, the spiritual, the miraculous … those matter, while the internal, the human, the mundane just don’t entertain their thoughts.

Back to this territorial spirits and strategic prayer and spiritual warfare and spiritual mapping stuff. Which means, doesn’t it, that they actually have a “weak god” (no capital “G” on god by design, not a typo) who must be drawn in by their strategic prayers, and their exacting “discernment” of territorial spirits, their fervency and frequency of praying for evil to be “broken,” etc.? They would deny it, but the point of paradigm analysis, which includes theological analysis, is to figure out what the deep values and beliefs *actually* are which drive their organizations, culture, and actions. I think that’s what’s going on.

In case interested in a case study of the New Apostolic Reformation/NAR and their follies in the “Lakeland Outpouring” a few years ago, I did a seven-part series that I kept on my blog:

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/category/culturology-case-studies/kingdom-leadership-after-lakeland/

Many of the key “leaders” in that debacle have ties to NAR, and the strategic prayer and spiritual warfare movements. In that series, I was trying to: (1) Make sense of the public lapses in leadership and discernment in the 2008 “Lakeland Outpouring.” (2) Interpret the implications of Lakeland for constructive movement forward, which includes taking responsibility for past failures and working toward prevention of failure in the future. (3) Profile what healthy / sustainable leadership should look like in emerging cultures. There are always constructive things we can learn from the destructive stuff around us …

You might be interested to know that in some of my delving into RPG systems, I found one set in the San Francisco Bay Area. It was more along the lines of fantasy than sci-fi. — Brad Futurist Guy

Do you remember the name of the game or system, Brad? From your fragmentary description, it sounds like one of the White Wolf games.

But I actually think this extreme take-off on spiritual warfare is closer to a revised/revived form of dualistic Zoroastrianism or gnostic aeons – with good and evil powers on opposite sides, and humanity sort of neutral and caught in the middle and which ever force pulls on them stronger, like some good or evil magnet, is the one that dominates them. — Brad Futurist Guy

Long ago, I concluded that a lot of these Spiritual Warfare types have gone one step beyond Zoroaster — Satan/Ahriman is not just equal to, but MORE powerful than God/Ahura-Mazda. Otherwise why would God need all these Spiritual Warriors making their Magick to hold Satan at bay?

And this also explains the glazed eyes and strained shrill tone in the voice of these Spiritual Warriors: They have made Satan so powerful that deep down they’re afraid (despite all their warding and binding and loosing) they’ve thrown in with the losing side.

(Historical trivia: When the Spanish Inquisition rolled on a Witchcraft case (which was very rarely), the actual charge they brought was “Heresy: Attributing too much power to Satan”.)

Brad – it’s not just that external forces (supposedly) control people, it’s that these folks think they can have power over such forces (as you mentioned, to the point of trying to manipulate god into granting their wishes).

their god requires *them* to help him/it gain “dominion” over what L. Ron Hubbard called “battlefield Earth.” Their god would, I think, be seemingly “powerless” w/o them to act as his agents and as channels of his power.

So… the claims that it’s about intercessory prayer are, imo, baseless. If their god cannot act without them, what kind of god is he/it, really? He/it is dependent on the actions of human beings.

And – very scary – those who are allied with the other “god” (since it seems that these folks believe in two major entities) are, therefore, evil and should be displaced from their “territory.”

and that’s a recipe for bloodshed – even genocide – in the making.

btw, you have followed connections re. the NAR and the Latter Rain movement, no? With their views on “the Manifest Sons of God”? Because it’s there, from the charismatic renewal onward – I’ve heard people talk about the “chosen generation = meaning the same thing that the LR people call “Joel’s army.”

What troubles me greatly is that most people in the news media seem to think that the NAR are just a bunch of kooks, not people who can manipulate political power. the “kooks” part isn’t so off, though I know otherwise sane – and well-educated – people who believe in the NAR agenda wholeheartedly.

The problem comes at the political level, and I think there’s been one hell of a lot of maneuvering there for the past 20+ years… which is only just starting to become apparent now, or at least since the 2008 presidential campaign season. but I don’t want to go into that on-list here, since I believe I might end up violating the commenting policy with some of my remarks on that score!

@ HUG. Yup, I’m pretty sure it was a fantasy White Wolf RPG. If I remember correctly it talked about “freeholds” as places that are concealed from mortals, but where enchantment/magic happened. Sort of like the Celtic concept of “thin spaces.” And while I suppose there is something to be said for the concept that if a person or people group considers a particular item to be an idol, or a place to be especially inhabited by “spirits,” then we have to deal with their perceptions/beliefs on that basis. However, does that justify spiritual warfare based on what seems hair breadths away from outright occult practices involving finding these “spiritual hot spots” and “vortexes”?

Also, I searched for an analogy I came up with a decade ago as a friend of mine and I tried to process his experiences. He lived in a highly occult-oriented neighborhood for a time, and got so heavily into spiritual warfare that it took over his perspective for a few years. In fact, it was oppressive to him and his household. Because one whole wing of spiritual abusive movements go wholesale into this stuff, thought I’d quote the description of that analogy here – maybe readers from some of these heavily warfare-oriented churches will find it of help. It’s from the tutorial I did on “theodicy,” near the bottom of the page. I edited it slightly or added phrases to clarify book titles and sources:

If you’ve been adversely affected by the “Transformations” [Sentinel Group/George Otis, Jr.] theology and “spiritual mapping/strategic-level warfare prayer” practices, you might be interested in getting this book I found over 10 years ago in the late 1990s: Spiritual Power and Missions: Raising the Issues by Edward Rommen. It has several articles that give a substantial theological critique of the extreme spiritual warfare systems of George Otis, Jr.; Cindy Jacobs; Dutch Sheets; C. Peter Wagner; et al; if that’s part of how you want to process your own release from captivity.

I attended the second ever spiritual mapping conference in 1994, not because I was a total advocate, but because I am a cautionary critic and wanted to find out what this was about. I have had many friends directly involved as advocates, and I could see something seemed out of whack. I wrestled for a few years with whether [George Otis, Jr.’s/The Sentinel Group’s] “Transformations” system as laid out in books like *Twilight Labyrinth* and *Informed Intercession* was biblical, abiblical, or anti-biblical. I finally concluded it was an abiblical system (not substantiated in Scripture) that easily becomes anti-biblical (a counterfeit system) by taking us away from the clear teachings of Scripture. (I still do hold to many aspects of spiritual warfare and theodicy, even as a never-been-Charismatic missional-minded mostly-Baptist-in-my-theology guy, because I believe they are clear and central doctrines found in Scripture.)

Here’s an analogy I came up with to explain what I see as the core problem. It’s like we’re doorkeepers who stand in the open doorway between two rooms. In the outer room it is fully dark. In the throne room sits Jesus and it is full of light.

Strategic-level spiritual warfare praying wants us to stand in the doorway, face into the dark room, and focus on casting out the darkness. Some of the light from Jesus flows past us and into the dark room. We occasionally turn toward Jesus, but not for too long because our supposed job is to stand against the darkness.

But what Scripture wants of us is to stand in the doorway, face Jesus, and take in the light. When we do this, the same amount of light goes around us and into the dark room as when we go the spiritual warfare route, plus we can always turn temporarily to greet anyone who comes near because they are being drawn toward the light.

We become like whatever we focus on. If we integrate our lives around Jesus, we ourselves are transformed toward Christlikeness and we can affect the people around us accordingly. It’s ironic that when we integrate our lives around how people are influenced by Satan, we ourselves become inhumane because we no longer see humans, only spiritual forces and those pawns controlled by them. I wonder if all abusive theologies are built around such contempt for the very people whom God loves …

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-14/

Well, apparently you’re fighting and evil “goddess spirit” that was manipulating both Princess Diana *and* Mother Teresa, to judge by what C. Peter Wagner and some of his pals have to say about it. [/end sarcasm, but I bet Brad knows that I’m not making this up]

They really are into this notion of D.c. supposedly being a place where the glory of God should be manifest… which is pretty much the same as saying that it would be better to have a theocracy (run by them, of course) in place than a democratic republic.

Maybe it will come as no surprise to know that That Church (the one that booted me) is on Capitol Hill. And yes, some high-level federal employees (some of them political appointees) were members during my time there…

“Freehold” seems to mean the same thing as fairy forts/underhill/etc. in that game – the parallel world that appears in folklore from Ireland and the UK, as well as in a lot of fantasy lit.

I really don’t see it as having evil overtones per se. (Though since I don’t know the game – and am not a gamer anyway – I might be wrong.)

Brad – I meant the “strategic-level spiritual warfare” stuff – it creates fear and harm in peoples’ lives. If they can see it discussed in a logical way – and with some decent theology – I *do* think it becomes far less alluring, yes.

As for the way in which the “spiritual warfare” mentality and practices are so close to so many “occult” practices (I’m qualifying only because some things that xtians consider to be “occult” really aren’t), I think it’s highly ironic – but equally, that the irony is totally lost on those who are immersed in it.

@ numo on Mon Sep 03, 2012 at 03:12 AM: [Brad – I meant the “strategic-level spiritual warfare” stuff – it creates fear and harm in peoples’ lives. If they can see it discussed in a logical way – and with some decent theology – I *do* think it becomes far less alluring, yes.]

That makes sense to me. For me, it helps to see the entire context of Scripture and how it is present and interwoven from Genesis to Revelation. But it is not the direct, front-and-center story of the stage of life. Spiritual warfare is more like a backdrop to the action on stage, or the theatre in which it occurs. But God, not Satan, is the Director and Producer. (To tie this analogy in with the topic of extreme Reformist theologies, one has to decide whether we as the “actors” on stage are merely repeating the words on a script like robotoids with none of our choices affecting the plot, or whether we are actually doing improv where our choices do affect the unfolding action.)

The reason some of this “creeps me out” is because of how I saw it personally affecting friends of mine who got steeped in it. And often our language about this topic is the vocabulary of conquest, and I wonder if some of the appeal to some people may be because spiritual warfare does seem to be a role in which anyone could make an impact. “I mean, it’s really all about intercessory prayer, right? And what could be wrong with that?”

I don’t discount the spiritual gift of discernment, or the necessity to see things very carefully in “fear-based cultures” – where everyday life is conducted in an atmosphere where the biggest questions are about how to placate the “unseen powers” and avoid the evil eye and what ritual can you do to protect you from harm. But spiritual warfare won’t be the only doctrine to make a difference in such a place, even if there does need to be a bit more emphasis on legitimate discernment and perhaps deliverance to counterbalance their entrapment by forces of evil, and it will make sense in their culture to be sure to tie in the gospel with Christ’s triumph over Satan.

Yup. And as in all of what seem to be in any system based on perfectionism – if you’re super super “good” you get accolades, but if you fall short, then it’s super “bad” because the evangelism of the world depends on “accurate” and “enough” intercession to stop the evil spirits and get [g]od to act.

It is a fear-based, spirit-controlled culture, not a “true love casts out fear” and Holy Spirit-empowered culture. It is not biblical.

@ Numo, HUG, and Brad:

Wow – you guys have done a lot of digging into occult/NAR/”extreme spiritual warfare” people. I’ve really only read about the NAR’s political connections on Talk2Action (which I think is a great site even though the authors are way more politically left than I am). — Hester

Haven’t personally done a lot of digging. Just what I’ve been able to pick up by osmosis from several blogs. And being an F&SF fan since the Seventies — you tour some interesting tracts of mental landscape that way, both in the literature and some of the weirder fans.

I guess I’ve never understood why that theology would be appealing to anybody – I mean, who wants to walk around in terror that demons are going to “take dominion” over their house if their kid reads a Twilight novel? Is their God really that weak? I thought Jesus had already defeated Satan. — Hester

How about “demons taking dominion over your house” and causing a depression by piggybacking on a piece of fantasy art (a smexy cobra-woman lounging in a white dress) you picked up at an SF con’s art show? I actually got told that after a bout of depression in early 2010, on the say-so of a “spiritual warfare expert”. (For the record, I know exactly why acquiring that picture threw me into a two-month depression: Some circumstances around my acquiring it were similar enough to other circumstances in my past that they caused flashback memories of my bad breakup with my only girlfriend — at full emotional intensity. And I didn’t need an exorcism to lift the depression; I wrote my way out of it with a 10,000-word fantasy novelette based on the experience.)

And judging from my other experiences with Christianese reactions to D&D, indie comics, and furries, I would have to conclude that the answer to “Is their God really that weak?” is YES.

My former church in Wisconsin was deeply involved in spiritual warfare. I also think it flirted with dominion theology. I was encouraged to daily read “The Elijah List” which talked about the spiritual warfare surrounding out nation. — Eagle

I first heard about “The Elijah List” on a now-defunct blog called Onward, Forward, Towards that also mentioned “Charismania” and “Charismatic Witchcraft”. The blogger had NOTHING good to say about “The Elijah List”, and regularly debunked it.

The obsession with demons and the occult was so high, that the church was afraid of satanic activity happening on the grounds, and thought it actually had occurred a couple of times, as I was told. — Eagle

“There are two errors we may fall into regarding the race of Devils — we either discount their very existence or believe their existence but take a very unhealthy interest in them.”
— C.S.Lewis, Preface to Screwtape Letters (from memory)

Regarding fantasy magic, earlier this year I helped proof and tweak a friends fanfic novel, one of whose themes IS the difference between fantasy magic and Magick. (The premise is a crossover between Manly Wade Wellman’s “Silver John” fantasy Americana series and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, played completely straight as a serious fantasy world.) Here’s an excerpt on the subject, from John’s first-person POV:

I might could have said more but Twilight broke in.

“Arrgh, that’s not how magic works! A spellbook is just, just a book! Okay, it has magical knowledge in it, and some private or classified ones have protective geases on them so ponies who weren’t given permission can’t read it, but the book itself is just wood and fabric and paper!” She lowered her head and shook it, and she looked and sounded tired when she looked back at me. “It just, magic’s not supposed to work this way!”

“YOUR magic right here,” I reminded her. “Where I come from, it’s all rightly different. Let me guess, magic’s a natural thing in your world, isn’t it? Something like fire or water or air, a part of the world?” She looked kindly confused, but she nodded at me. I looked around at her friends and I saw wondering looks on their faces too. “But where I come from, there’s no natural magic, or next to none. You’ve got to ask other THINGS for it, angels or devils or spirits, and if they want to help you, or you pay them off enough to make them want to, you can do it.”

Eagle…

There are so many other clubs I wish I could have been a part of….

I hear you… but the thing is, you’re free to choose now. Or start your own club, for that matter. 😉

I seem to remember that some of Jack Chick’s comics seem to major in this sort of tendency as well. He was quite old-fashioned in some ways, but some of the strips were quite lurid.

Jan and Beakerj,

(awe, DAGNABBIT this ended up too long & convoluted! But if you’ll indulge me….)

A ways up you commented on Beakerj’s statement,

“But how do we know, really really know, that God is not like this & this isn’t true? So many very smart & scripturally astute people seem to buy into some version of this…How do we KNOW?”

Have a thought. I’m presently very fascinated with Lucille Ball — such a unique and remarkable person, having had remarkable life experiences, shaping her in such complex ways. I’ve read much commentary, perused biographies, and am currently reading one written by a close pal of hers and endorsed by her daughter Lucie (so I assume getting much closer to the epicenter of truth).

So, there are concentric circles of information, based on a variety of things = conjecture, hearsay, impressions, observations, verifiable facts, direct experience, misunderstandings and misperceptions by degrees, true stories, true stories that are embellished a bit sometimes touching on falsity.

The closer to the person the source of information has been, the more accurate. But even so, the secret keys to the truth of the person are locked within the person him or herself. The more complex the person, the more this is the case.

With Lucille Ball, she has “moved on”. So perhaps she’ll never be completely understood (even by her family).

But the person of God is different.

“Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.” Jer. 33:3

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” Rev. 3:20

We’ll never fully understand God. But as far as I can tell, it can be an ever-growing relationship in which we know come to know Him more and more, what He’s like, what he thinks — this is no revelation, & I don’t doubt you would agree. I even think knowing God on an ever-deeper level gives us shades of understanding into the subtleties of his unique personality. By which one can apply some conjecture (with confidence, perhaps) into what “this” seems to mean, what “that” seems to have meant.

With someone like Lucille Ball, I’ll never know with complete understanding all the intricate what’s and why’s about her, and there will never be complete agreement amongst those interested in her. But I can glean from the concentric circles of information, knowing that the closer the source was to her the more rich the vein of truth. And I can’t help but have opinions on it all (we all are constantly developing opinions based on the data we perceive). I can have a certain amount of confidence in my opinion based on the knowledge I know I have.

I think it’s the same with God. There will never be complete agreement about him. But I can have a certain amount of confidence in how i understand him, based on the knowledge I know I have. And when other people (even the most illustrious) have very different opinions,…. so what. It’s not worth turning my mind inside out like a paper cup trying to reconcile squares and circles.

Even though people may disagree about the what’s and why’s about Lucille Ball, there are many things they would all agree on based on evidence. With God and the differing opinions on the what’s and why’s, there are many things we would all agree on based on the evidence.

I just relax with that, and continue to know God as I know him.

People knew & understood Lucille Ball in different ways, based on their experiences with her and their perception filters. People know God in different ways based on their experiences and perception filters. Fortunately, God is every wanting to be known and ever making himself available to me (& everyone), and I can do my best in getting to know him in deepening ways, and do my best in keeping my perception filters pure.

I just do my best, and rest in confidence in what I know. God is not scary or painful or emotionally abusive (circumstances are, God isn’t.) “Taste and see that the Lord is good.”

Re: Chick,
The first and most memorable Chick Tract I found was relevant to this discussion. Chick told of his friend– owed lotsa money by a man who refused to pay it back. “My friend forgot to pray for that man. Two weeks later, that man and his girlfriend plunged to a Christless Grave (TM). (Picture of car going off cliff with hellish flames and demons below).
Imagine the eternal load of guilt to be carried by Chick’s friend, trying to enjoy heaven but constantly thinking “woulda coulda shoulda”, and that man and his (presumably innocent) girlfriend being eternally tormented by demons– all ’cause the friend got busy with work, or the kids, or (horrors) maybe a round of golf, and forgot to pray, and therefore no angel could go and fix the brakes, or build a higher guard rail. And Satan has the victory, in like fashion as if a bridge collapses and kills people, all because some preacher in town isn’t paying close enough attention to God.

Okay…haven’t commented in a while. Life….

First, regarding Jack Chick tracks…they are insidious. I grew up on them and the Gospel isn’t in them. They scared the hell out of me – contributed greatly to abject fear of God striking me dead. I was like 8, 9, 10 years old. A couple of years ago, someone in town went on a Chick Track Rampage (TM) – stuffing them in the door handles of cars while people were at work, shoving them in your hand in a crowd at the farmers market. I was knee deep in the deconstruction then and in one week, I had 3 on my car and one shoved in my hand. It freaked me out – the one shoved in my hand I never got to look at. My friend saw it, saw the look on my face and took and threw it in the trash. She was angry. 🙂 The ones on my car I read….. and got angry. And threw them away – and had to wrestle with the indoctrinated guilt of that until I recognized that it had no redemptive value and if it had that affect on me, why would I want to risk anyone else reading it? But I had to wrestle through the irrational fear that my reaction to these tracks was a result of my backslidden, fallen ways….

Now the NAR stuff. Sigh. I grew up Assemblies of God. That has it’s own set of issues, but they were tame compared to what I dealt with at home. My mother was (is) a malignant narcissist with her ‘superpower’ of choice being religion and spiritual things. (Research malignant narcissism for info on how they choose particular fields to be ‘experts’ in.) She was heavily into Word of Faith, demonology, spiritual warfare. I grew up in an atmosphere were Satan was literally a constant presence to be fought.

I remember one time, she had a sick migraine (she was prone to them) and she always got angry, as though being sick was a personal affront to her and made her look bad (research Word of Faith). She would yell at God – in later years, when she developed rheumatoid arthritis, she would curse God – but she was a ‘strong Christian woman.’ Anyway, she had this headache and she was yelling at me to pray for her and hit her in the head and knock the headache out of her. I wouldn’t do it and she got very angry. She had me perform and exorcism on her once…..tears. Ugly stuff. Later in life, when I got caught up in the church/cult (Word of Faith on steroids with shepherding mixed in), I got into the Elijah List. After I got out of that church, I recognized the Elijah List was just a bunch of people who may or may not have specific spiritual gifts, but either way, were using them for their own agenda and fame. I first heard of Todd Bentley (of Lakeland fame) there. They are putting on a performance for each other, trying to out-prophecy each other, and it has a ‘snake-oil’ feel to me, now.

The Elijah List is how I became aquainted with the NAR. Dutch Sheets, C Peter Waganer(sp), Cindy Jacobs, etc., were regular contributors. And C Peter Waganer can deny affiliation with Todd Bentley all her wants, but I remember Bentley getting his start on the Elijah List with Waganer’s endorsement….

In reading all your comments (Brad, Numo, Eagle, HUG), it is helpful and saddening at the same time. I sometimes get overwhelmed with the insanity of it all. And I still sometimes find myself a little shaky on the fear of being ‘out of line and lost’ side – but that is getting less frequent…. and I just want to cry at the friends I still have that lean toward the ‘spiritual warfare/strategic warfare’ paradigm.

Oh, and I have had my share of guilt for not ‘witnessing’ to friends that then died in car wrecks or, in one case, committed suicide. If they’re in hell, it could be my fault. Still detoxing from that one….

Doesn’t this suck? I mean stop and think about this. We’re discussing fringe theology that has burned and fried us. — Eagle

“HELLO, FRINGIES!!!”
— “Sinister Seymour”, 1960s-vintage TV horror-movie host of the Los Angeles area

The first and most memorable Chick Tract I found was relevant to this discussion. Chick told of his friend– owed lotsa money by a man who refused to pay it back. “My friend forgot to pray for that man. Two weeks later, that man and his girlfriend plunged to a Christless Grave (TM). (Picture of car going off cliff with hellish flames and demons below). — Dave AA

No, Dave, that’s “PLUNGED TO A CHRISTLESS GRAVE!!!!!!” Chick used a LOT of boldface and exclamation points.

Anyone heard the speculation that Jack Chick was really a Satanic plant to poison people’s minds against Christ with his tracts?

First, regarding Jack Chick tracks…they are insidious. I grew up on them and the Gospel isn’t in them. They scared the hell out of me – contributed greatly to abject fear of God striking me dead. — Jeanette Altes

Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it. My first introduction to a certain Jesus Christ (at the impressionable age of around 15) was through two Jack Chick tracts: “This Was Your Life” and “The Beast”. With Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth as a chaser. Talk about a recipe to really mess up your head…

I was like 8, 9, 10 years old. A couple of years ago, someone in town went on a Chick Tract Rampage (TM) – stuffing them in the door handles of cars while people were at work, shoving them in your hand in a crowd at the farmers market. — Jeanette Altes

Great term, Jeanette — “Chick Tract Rampage”. Sounds like the title of some Nintendo game or novelty song on Dr Demento. (Speaking of the latter, we got any filkers in this blog who’d like to give it a try?)

She was heavily into Word of Faith, demonology, spiritual warfare. I grew up in an atmosphere were Satan was literally a constant presence to be fought. — Jeanette Altes

No, Jeanette, you grew up in an atmosphere of Witchcraft with a Christian coat of paint, where Satan was more powerful than God.

And according to M Scott Peck in People of the Lie, there’s an older and shorter word for “Malignant Narcissicm”: Evil.

In reading all your comments (Brad, Numo, Eagle, HUG), it is helpful and saddening at the same time. I sometimes get overwhelmed with the insanity of it all. — Jeanette Altes

“Insanity is part of these times. You must learn to EMBRACE THE MADNESS!”
— Londo Mollari, Centauri Ambassador, Babylon-5

And I still sometimes find myself a little shaky on the fear of being ‘out of line and lost’ side – but that is getting less frequent…. and I just want to cry at the friends I still have that lean toward the ‘spiritual warfare/strategic warfare’ paradigm.

Oh, and I have had my share of guilt for not ‘witnessing’ to friends that then died in car wrecks or, in one case, committed suicide. If they’re in hell, it could be my fault. — Jeanette Altes

It’s called GUILT MANIPULATION. JMJ Over at Christian Monist often posts about how a lot of abusive churches have elevated it to a high art.

And its corollary WRETCHED URGENCY (from Internet Monk), where a passage from Ezekiel is redefined to mean “If YOU don’t Witness to them and they Go To A Christless Grave(TM), God Will Hold YOU Responsible(TM)!” So with God’s Hell-gun pressed against the back of your head with one up the spout and the safety off, you get desperate. Crazy desperate. Until you’re climbing the crazy tree high enough to grab onto and high-pressure EVERYONE you come across. Because if you don’t do it to them, God will do it to you — same deal as the SS made to the Kapos in the concentration camps.

Welcome to “My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.”

I got burned, you got burned, Eagle got burned, Deb & Dee got burned.
And we’re all the walking wounded in the Post-Evangelical Wilderness.
We’re all bozos on this bus.

Jeannette. Wow.

…

It’s Tony Alamo tracts that we always used to get on our cars in Memphis. Because I have led a charmed life compared to you all, I just read them out of curiosity and then tossed them. Never could make heads nor tails out of them. After all of the stuff came out about him I understood why. The man is wack. I don’t know what happened to the children trafficked by his cult – foster care, I guess.

We moved to Lakeland in 2007. I knew there was *something* going on but was so busy with work and so forth I was oblivious to all that. Ick.

@Nelson Steinburger

While I think many pastors are overpaid in larger churches I think you have made some suggestions which are way off the mark in terms of where the time goes. Most pastors (and anyone else who has to give a public speech) spend much more time researching and preparing than talking. Plus I expect a teaching pastor to spend time expanding his knowledge.

Then, especially when you get away from larger churches, a pastor gets to spend much time doing things totally unrelated to the Sunday sermon. Especially if they are filling the role as many of us envision it.

Generally, it is about dying and having every sin you’ve ever committed played on a super-sized movie theater style screen for all to see. This is done whether you are saved or not, but (of course) the man in this story isn’t. Imagine what kind of effect this had on a young girl caught in the middle of years of molestation and being taught that she was the one at fault for it….and thinking Jesus would do that to her. — Jeanette Altes

I don’t need to imagine, Jeanette. I was never molested or anything like that, but “This Was Your Life” had the same effect on me — stark terror of this sadistic cosmic Kim Jong-Il. To this day, I can only approach God or Christ through the safety precautions of Liturgy.

It’s Tony Alamo tracts that we always used to get on our cars in Memphis. — Laura

Ah, yes. “Holy Alamo Christian Church Inc” or whatever they’re calling themselves these days. From the Jesus People movement of the Sixties to Kooks: A Guide to the Outer Limits of Human Belief to meltdown. Didn’t know they were still around.