"However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God."
The Gospel Coalition (TGC) has held its share of conferences since it was established, and next month it will host its first ever women's conference – Here Is Our God. So how long has The Gospel Coalition been in existence? Twenty years? Ten years? Here is an excerpt from a Christianity Today article entitled What's Next for The Gospel Coalition which answers that question. It states:
"Trinity Evangelical Divinity School professor Don Carson and Tim Keller came up with the idea for the Gospel Coalition (TGC) several years ago. They kicked it off in 2007 with a conference attended by 500. In 2008, the conference was a by-invitation-only, off-the-record meeting of the nearly 50 men on the coalition's council. In 2009, 3,100 pre-registered and 223 walked in.
They also rolled out the Gospel Coalition Network (TGCN) on The City, a social networking site developed at Mars Hill Church in Seattle. The site will allow TGCN to approve and register members who agree with TGC's foundation documents (including their statement of faith and "Theological Vision of Ministry"). They can then organize in geographical groups. . . . There are a lot more people here than in 2007. What does that say to you?"
So the answer to the question is FIVE YEARS. Let me put that into perspective – the Gospel Coalition is a mere two years older than The Wartburg Watch.
TGC's latest conference — Here Is Our God! – God’s Revelation of Himself in Scripture — comes on the heels of the Southern Baptist Convention's Annual Meeting. As we have previously noted, Marry Kassian, one of the foremost speakers at Here Is Our God, will be addressing Southern Baptist pastors' wives at a June 19th luncheon in conjunction with the SBC annual gathering.
Then this Canadian will dash from New Orleans to Orlando to prepare for the TGC conference that takes place from June 22 – 24. Southern Baptist women who will also be speaking at the Here Is Our God conference and who will most likely be hosting tables during the SBC pastors' wives luncheon include Mary Mohler, Kristie Anyabwile, and Lauren Chandler. Perhaps they will be accompanying Mary Kassian to Florida for this "girls only" event. According to the website, men and children are not allowed.
Here is an overview of the upcoming TGC conference:
"The Gospel Coalition’s 2012 National Women’s Conference is for women but not all about women. It’s about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s a time to learn more of what Scripture says to us—and to say it to each other. A time to dig deeper into the character of God and his purpose for his people. A time to gather together and share biblical encouragement as sisters, daughters, wives, mothers, and friends.
Several renowned Bible teachers, including three TGC founding members, will explore the theme “Here Is Our God!” by guiding us through the Bible’s unfolding revelation of God to human eyes and hearts. Plenaries will offer exposition of biblical texts in which the Lord shows himself to his people. Seminars will feature women living out the Word, seeing and serving God with transformed and transforming lives. We’ll worship together through music led by Keith and Kristyn Getty.
This time together in Orlando will fix our eyes on Christ, in whom God has shown himself fully, to enable us to see him more clearly and serve him more powerfully."
There is an incredibly large number of speakers at this conference, including (in alphabetical order): Kristie Anyabwile, Mindy Belz, Paige Benton Brown, Lydia Brownback, Don Carson, Lauren Chandler, Kathleen Chapell, Miyon Chung, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Elyse Fitzpatrick, Keri Folmar, Colleen Gallagher, Keith and Kristyn Getty, Nancy Guthrie, Susan Hunt, Mary Kassian, Kathy Keller, Tim Keller, Adrienne Lawrence, Deborah Lorentsen, Karen Loritts, Carolyn Mahaney, Mary K. Mohler, Kathleen B. Nielson, Jani Ortlund, John Piper, Noel Piper, Jenny Salt, Carrie Sandom, Leeann Stiles, Jessica Thompson, and Mary Wilson.
While I don't know the agendas of all of these individuals, I am very familiar with the belief system of John Piper, Carolyn Mahaney, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, and Mary Kassian. It is amazing how well-connected these speakers are. Kristie Anyabwile's husband Thabiti is an extremely close colleague of Mark Dever. Lauren Chandler's husband Matt is now the President of Acts 29, Nancy Leigh DeMoss is a close friend of Mary Kassian (they recently co-wrote a book), Jani Ortlund is married to Ray who served on the committee to investigate whether C.J. Mahaney was fit for ministry (remember, he served with Kevin DeYoung and Carl Trueman?)
A number of the female speakers have had their writings featured on The Gospel Coalition website, so they have been properly vetted. They fit the TGC mold very well, which is why they are allowed to promote their ideals for "true womanhood". Oh, yes, we will be discussing the True Woman 12 conference in the near future.
Now let's consider the cost of attending this conference. In addition to travel costs, lodging, and food, here is the registration fee info.
Individual Registration: $175
Student Registration $100
International Registration $100
There are a number of churches advertising this conference on their websites, including some churches belonging to Sovereign Grace Ministries. To make advertising easy, here is the link to promotional materials for the conference. Crossway even has a web page featuring the conference. Finally, there is a FAQ for those who may need additional information.
If you want to learn all about Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, you will NOT want to miss this event! Let the indoctrination begin. . .
We're just getting started on the topic of Christian conferences, or as Mark Driscoll puts it, "Conference Christians". Stay tuned. . . There is much more to come.
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 47:1-48:35 1 Peter 2:11-3:7 Psalm 119:49-64 Proverbs 28:12-13
Soooo…men aren’t allowed. Except John Piper and Tim Keller?
” If you want to learn about Biblical Manhood and womenhood, you will not want to miss this event”
Yep, cause their they only ones who would know what this is…
Oh yeah, if you don’t go, you’ll be missing out for what God wants to speak to you about. We need these “spiritual leaders” to help us know what God wants.
(giggles) but the ‘spiritual leaders’ would only be the men. You might as well go home once the women start, because they can’t be ‘spiritual leaders’. OH! That’s right – unless the men give them ‘covering’ (permission) to do so.
Let the anti feminist rant begin……..
On a positive note, I have heard Elyse Fitzpatrick speaking with Michael Horton and she is grace filled. I don’t know lots about her however what I did hear was not calvinista in the least.
Hannah
Have you ever wondered who made up the word “covering” and what that practically means? Frankly, I think we should cover FOR one another, to help one another out, to stand in the gap, etc.Parents might cover their children during a tornado or a soldier might cover a grenade with his body to save his friends. That is sacrificial and loving.
But, this sort of spiritual covering is gobbled gook of the highest order. Why in the world do I need my husband’s covering if I am talking about a theological subject that I understand better than he? In fact, my husband once said that I was covering for him at times when we taught as in I had his back.
stormy
“If you want to learn about Biblical Manhood and womanhood.” Once again, I repent Exhibit A, the word, “Biblical” used to mean that they are the ones who know what gender roles should be according to the “Bible.” obviously, if I beg to differ, I am a heretic since I do not follow the “Bible.” I protest!
The “IRON LADIES Of TWW”
Hello!
“A recent movie starring Meryl Streep and depicting the life of Lady Margaret Thatcher was called “The Iron Lady.” And the movie was aptly titled, as Lady Thatcher’s grit and determination proved that she was indeed an “Iron Lady.” In fact, Streep won an Oscar award for her performance as England’s only woman Prime Minister. (Has anyone won more Oscars than Streep?) However, I’m not sure the film itself truly did justice to Lady Margaret.”
“Since we have just celebrated Mother’s Day, and with the recent award-winning depiction of Margaret Thatcher, I thought it fitting to write a column on some of the great iron ladies of both Biblical and American history. Obviously, if we attempted to list all of the great women in both Biblical and American history, the list would require volumes of books to contain them all. Herein, let me list but a few.”
Iron Ladies of Biblical History:
Jochebed, Moses’ Mother.
“First, Jochebed is honored in the great “Hall of Faith” in Hebrews 11 for defying Pharaoh’s unjust and unlawful edict to kill the little Hebrew babies. “By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.” (Hebrews 11:23)
“Imagine: Jochebed and her husband Amram (Moses’ parents) rebelled against their civil authorities and God praised them for it in Hebrews 11. (Please don’t tell the Romans 13-ers; it will only confuse them.)”
“Second, Jochebed taught her son, Moses, his godly heritage and instructed him to discern the difference between lawful and unlawful authority. She also taught him the Natural Law principles of liberty for God’s people. We know this, because when Moses saw that Egyptian taskmaster beating a Hebrew slave to death, he stepped in and defended the Hebrew by taking the life of the would-be murderer. And, once again, God praised Moses for his decision to save the Hebrew:”
“By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.” (Heb. 11:24, 25)
“When did Moses refuse to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter and to choose to suffer affliction with the people of God? When he stepped in to defend the life of the Hebrew slave. That’s when! Remember, as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter Moses was very likely in line to become the next Pharaoh of Egypt. Moses was willing to turn his back on riches and power in order to defend the principle of liberty for his people. What caused him to make such a choice if it wasn’t the training and instruction received from his mother and father?”
“Please remember Hebrews 11:24, 25 the next time you hear some misguided preacher say that Moses committed murder by killing the Egyptian taskmaster. Moses did no such thing! Defense of oneself or another is a Biblical Natural Law principle. And, of course, the rest of what Moses did is history.”
Jochebed was a true Iron Lady.
Rahab, The Jericho Harlot.
“This story is found in Joshua 6. As with Jochebed, Rahab disobeyed her civil authorities and helped the Hebrew spies escape the Jericho soldiers. This included helping them escape out of a window and down a wall, and then lying to the authorities about it. And, once again, Rahab is honored by God by listing her in the great “Hall of Faith” in Hebrews 11:31 “By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.” She is honored again in the Book of James: “Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?” (James 2:25)”
“What is amazing to me about this story is the fact that even though Rahab was a harlot, she had the discernment to recognize the difference between true and false authority and the faith to act upon it. Why is it that so many “good” Christians today seemingly have little or no discernment when it comes to recognizing legitimate and illegitimate authority, and yet many un-churched and non-Christian people seem to be able to recognize this distinction? It truly baffles me!”
Rahab was a true Iron Lady.
Deborah, The Judge.
“This story is found in Judges 4. Deborah was led of God to deliver the Israelites from the bondage and tyranny of the Canaanites. She teamed up with a man named Barak–a man who was not her husband, but who was equally chosen by God. (Don’t tell the legalists; this, too, will totally confuse them.) She provided the inspiration; he provided the battlefield leadership. Together they wrought a great victory and delivered their people from bondage.”
Deborah was a true Iron Lady.
“I would also nominate Vashti and Esther, the two queens of the Persian king, Ahasuerus, and Abigail, the woman who became the wife of King David, as true Iron Ladies. In each instance, these courageous women disobeyed their civil government’s–and at the same time, their husband’s–unlawful commands, risking their lives doing so, and stood as rocks for the principles of liberty and lawful authority. (Again, please don’t tell the Romans 13-ers, because it will totally confuse them!)”
“In the New Testament, I would nominate Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the women of Mark 15:40, 41 as true Iron Ladies.”
Iron Ladies of American History:
Abigail Adams.
Abigail Adams just might have been the most influential woman in America during our fight for independence. In my mind, she was certainly the greatest. She was the wife of John Adams and the mother of John Quincy Adams–both men becoming US Presidents, of course. The letters Abigail wrote–especially the ones between her and her husband–should be required reading for all American patriots. .
Here is a sample of her letters. She wrote this on Sunday, June 18, 1775, “‘The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but the God of Israel is He that give the strength and power unto his people. Trust in him at all times, ye people, pour out your hearts before him; God is a refuge for us.’ Charlestown is laid in ashes. The battle began upon our intrenchments upon Bunker’s Hill, Saturday morning about three o’clock, and has not ceased yet, and it is now three o’clock Sabbath afternoon.
“It is expected they will come out over the Neck tonight, and a dreadful battle must ensue. Almighty God, cover the heads of our countrymen, and be a shield to our dear friends! How many have fallen, we know not. The constant roar of the cannon is so distressing that we cannot eat, drink, or sleep. May we be supported and sustained in the dreadful conflict. I shall tarry here till it is thought unsafe by my friends, and then I have secured myself a retreat at your brother’s, who has kindly offered me part of his house. I cannot compose myself to write any further at present. I will add more as I hear further.”
Her letters edified and encouraged many, if not most, of the men whom we would identify as Founding Fathers.
(Thomas Jefferson, particularly, paid great homage to the encouragement he received from Abigail Adams.)
Elizabeth Lewis.
Elizabeth was also the wife of a man who signed the Declaration of Independence, Francis Lewis. As with so many of the signers and their wives, Elizabeth was forced to endure unbelievable cruelty at the hands of the British. The Crown’s troops were sent to their home “to seize the lady and destroy the property.” And that is exactly what they did. After destroying her home and everything of value that she owned, they carried her off to prison and subjected her to some of the most inhumane treatment possible. Through Herculean efforts by George Washington, she was freed from prison but died shortly thereafter.
Deborah Hart.
The wife of Declaration signer, John Hart, Deborah, too, paid a heavy price to help America win its independence. She and her 13 children had to flee for their lives from the British. They were scattered in all directions and had to live in forests and caves for more than a year. As with Elizabeth Lewis, Deborah did not survive. When her husband John was finally able to return home, he found Deborah had died, his children’s whereabouts were unknown, and his home and property were destroyed. John died a few months later of a broken heart.
Janet Montgomery.
Janet was the bride of Richard Montgomery, who was one of eight brigadier generals of the Continental Congress. Richard was killed in battle, and Janet was widowed almost before her honeymoon was over. She made these comments regarding her husband’s death: “As a wife I must ever mourn the loss of a husband, friend, and lover; of a thousand virtues, of all domestic bliss; the idol of my warmest affections, and in one word my every dream of happiness. But, with America, I weep the still greater loss of the firm soldier and the friend to freedom.”
Abigail, Elizabeth, Deborah, and Janet–and thousands like them–were true Iron Ladies….
“It is truly tragic that we do not come close to giving our great women of history the adulation and honor that they so richly deserve! Without the courage and sacrifice of these great women, none of us would have ever tasted the spiritual and national blessings that have been bequeathed to us.”
“May God forgive us for our lack of appreciation and gratitude, and may He never leave us alone without wonderful, stalwart Iron Ladies such as these!”
-Chuck Baldwin
May I suggest we nominate Deb and Dee and add their names to this already formidable list of Iron Ladies?
I have.
Do we have a second?
[SCRIPTURE] “A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years, and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse— After hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak. For she thought, “If I just touch His garments, I will get well.” Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her aaffliction.
Immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My garments?” And His disciples said to Him, “You see the crowd pressing in on You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’ ” And He looked around to see the woman who had done this. But the woman fearing and trembling, aware of what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction.”
-Mark 5:25-34 (NASB95)
I make my case, that this calvinesta “Comp” thing’s continual spiritual hemorrhage (Mark 5:25) seeks to rendered the devout Christian woman perpetually unclean,,, (cf. Lev. 15:25–27).
Consider carefully.
IronClad
__
Reference:
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/archives/4845
Dee,
“But, this sort of spiritual covering is gobbled gook of the highest order. Why in the world do I need my husband’s covering if I am talking about a theological subject that I understand better than he? In fact, my husband once said that I was covering for him at times when we taught as in I had his back.”
I like your comment and you have my complete agreement on this one. Some women are more spiritual and more knowledgeable than the men, that’s a fact before God and everyone.
One of the things I see happening here is something that’s happening in my neck of the woods. Here we have women who are either qualified to teach, or have the ‘right’ connections. But, what can they do? They’re not allowed to preach in church, or teach in any other mixed gender setting. So they create a women’s only conference to give these ladies a platform. A male teacher or 2 may turn up, because it’s fine for them to teach the women, but there can’t be male attendees, because then these complementarian female teachers would be unwittingly sinning by accidentally teaching a man!
I refuse to support this system of women’s conferences in any way shape or form, which makes for some awkward moments with some of the other women in my church 🙁
The absence of children also makes me (perhaps unreasonably?) suspicious. Now there are all sorts of nice things about getting away for a few days without the kids (though it could possibly mean their husbands might have to do some ‘female’ work while they’re gone)and in some ways it’s ‘nicer’ to have a child-free zone for adults BUT we all know that conferences can foster a slightly altered state of consciousness which makes people more receptive to what they’re being told. Having to deal with the needs of young children has a way of bringing you back down to earth.
One more tidbit about Rahab. She is one of 4 women listed as an ancestor of Jesus. (Matthew 1:5-6)
I like this list of Iron Ladies.
May their tribe increase, and may they be protectors in word, and deed of our injured sisters and brothers.
Ironclad
Whoo Hoo Loved the list.
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Eagle,
“Why don’t they just hold this conference in Pyongyang?”
So funny! It felt good to have a good laugh about it. :D!
IronClad,
Thanks for that incredible list of Iron Ladies!
Hey everybody,
One of the reasons I chose the Daisy for this post is because I believe the Calvinista crowd tries really hard to convince people that God only loves them if they do things in their narrow “biblicious” and “gospelrific” way. Dee just invented those two words yesterday, and I’m trying them out. Did I spell them right, Dee?
It’s a game of He loves me, He loves me not with this crowd. They admonish people that God loves us only when we do it THEIR WAY.
NONSENSE! God loves me PERIOD! And I love Him!
Actually, the DAISY has always been the Arminian flower; “He loves me, He loves me not.” They are the ones that have said your salvation is dependent upon your state of grace at any one moment.
Chuck O’Neal was the primary “speaker” at our ladies retreats at our former church- well, the 2 that I attended. Both retreats used the same video recording. I guess he felt we didn’t retain the information well enough the first time around ::::sigh::::
(My story: Chuck O’Neal and the church are suing me along with 4 others for defamation.)
Jimmy
I believe that some people believe that people continue to have a free choice regarding their relationship with God even after becoming a Christian. Just like people can choose to disown a family member so can a Christian. After spending years over at the ExChristians web site, I find my belief in “once saved, always saved” a bit challenged.
Iron Clad:
May I suggest we nominate Deb and Dee and add their names to this already formidable list of Iron Ladies?
I have.
Do we have a second?
I gladly second that motion!
Dee, my theology hasn’t been influenced by exchristians dot com.
Victorious,
I’m speechless…
Thanks for your vote of confidence. I’m sure that MANY others would disagree. 🙂
“After spending years over at the ExChristians web site, I find my belief in “once saved, always saved” a bit challenged.”
I concur with this for the same reason and for some others that include how some of the pericope has been interpreted. I think some of it is based on getting out of the “Christian bubble” and really engaging people. I think there is a lot of arrogance in Christian circles that says to a person: You never really had faith or even really repented or you would still be a believer.
One other nominee for the Iron Ladies list (another ancestor of Jesus, as well) was Tamar. Hmm– what are we to make of “covering” based on her story?
13It was told to Tamar, “Behold, your father-in-law is going up to Timnah to shear his sheep.” 14So she removed her widow’s garments and covered herself with a veil, and wrapped herself, and sat in the gateway of Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah; for she saw that Shelah had grown up, and she had not been given to him as a wife. 15When Judah saw her, he thought she was a harlot, for she had covered her face.
Julie Anne
One of the baffling things which got me interested in this subject was when John Piper was invited, via video, to be the primary “speaker” at our church’s ladies retreat.
Jimmy
You are smarter than that! I didn’t say they influenced my theology by their words. They influenced my theology by my observation. I asked my pastor about the claim that they had faith and had lost faith. I have heard Christians say that such people were never Christians in the first place. I observed their lives-evangelizing, some had been missionaries, some knew their Bible and could point to a distinct time they became a Christian, etc.
He said if they didn’t know they weren’t saved, believing the whole time that they were through testimony that most of us would recognize and applaud, how can you or any of us ever “know” if we are saved?
And I am not playing games with this point. I sincerely have searched for an answer and the typical answer does not ring with me. But, then again, you “know” that I am some sort of liberal and you, of course, know that you are correct and have got it down perfectly and are oh so doctrinally correct.
Jimmy
One further point because you have irritated me today. I go to these sites and spend time listening to stories because I give a darn about the people who have been a part of us and have left. You know, the shepherd going after one of the lost sheep sort of thing. I care enough that I feel sad for the loss of these folks. I pray for them and try to be kind because they matter to their Creator. Sometimes, I think of them as I fall asleep at night. I care about them, really care.
Victorious
Any discussion? Yep. It is the fellowship of the saints that keep us going. Without you, we would not be. I mean that with all of my heart. Sp, I nominate Victorious and all the others who hang with us here in “Bloggin Hood.”
“And I am not playing games with this point. I sincerely have searched for an answer and the typical answer does not ring with me. But, then again, you “know” that I am some sort of liberal and you, of course, know that you are correct and have got it down perfectly and are oh so doctrinally correct”
I really think that questioning some of the mantra’s of evangelicalism will only get people labeled right away. The labels vary from liberal to heretic.
No need for any intellectual, rational discussion on certain aspects of theology….the evangelical mind is closed. It is easier to say that someone who poured their lives into living for Christ and then walked away was never saved to begin with. One does not have to think, study and dig deep to have that answer.
I really do have sorrow over the anti intellectualism of Western Christianity. And I often wonder why God gave us brains if we are just to follow others (the intellectuals in theology?) interpretations.
RE: Anon1 on Sat, May 19 2012 at 12:53 pm:
The state of evangelicalism that you lament is not much more than 40 yrs. old and almost exclusively American in origin. It was started by breakaway sects from the mainline Protestant denominations.
Dee, like all of us; we can chose the plain words of Scripture or we can opt for the stories of people who have declared their aversion to the faith of the saints. It’s pretty easy to get sucked in by the stories; that’s why I’m so cautious about them.
Scripture so plainly says; there’s only TWO sides; for or against. There’s no third side. That’s not a difficult doctrine to discern requiring a Th.D. in theology. Anybody can read it and understand it.
Dee, I really didn’t mean to irritate you and I could have written the post better. My apologies if it “felt” snarky. Jimmy
“Dee, like all of us; we can chose the plain words of Scripture or we can opt for the stories of people who have declared their aversion to the faith of the saints. It’s pretty easy to get sucked in by the stories; that’s why I’m so cautious about them”
Problem is, Jimmy, there are a lot of “plain words of Scripture” such as:
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling
or
You will be saved in childbearing.
Right. “Plain” words.
Tim Keller seems like the kinda guy who could pull off a women’s conference well. He just doesn’t go out of his way to step on toes. Piper on the other hand… I hope they post the vids online, this could be first class entertainment.
“The state of evangelicalism that you lament is not much more than 40 yrs. old and almost exclusively American in origin. It was started by breakaway sects from the mainline Protestant denominations. ”
I do believe this as far as how widespread this notion is now. I can remember my grandmother having very intense but irenic debates over the book of Romans with pastors over Sunday lunch! (She went to Moody way back when women were allowed to get M.Div’s and she was SBC. It never dawned on her she could not study the Word and understand it or have positions differing from men. It was just not a huge sin back then)
Nowadays, she would be told she is missing the “plain words of scripture” as if she were an ignorant unanointed one.
But Muff, what does one who wants power over people do in a free country when there are no magistrates to back them up? They make everything that opposes their lording it over you, a sin. It is the only way to amass power.
Jimmy wrote:
“…Scripture so plainly says; there’s only TWO sides; for or against. There’s no third side. That’s not a difficult doctrine to discern requiring a Th.D. in theology. Anybody can read it and understand it…”
This is precisely why Erasmus took issue with Luther’s plowboy. Aside from the good news of Jesus Christ, the Bible IS NOT easy to understand and plowboys (or intellectual elites) have a tendency to misuse and abuse the Bible.
Elyse Fitzpatrick is a professional Christian counselor who used to be a member of SGM, but her web site now lists her as a member of a different, non-SGM church. I heard her at an SGM ladies retreat years ago talking about accountability in women’s friendships. That part was OK, I guess, but her best session by far was at the end on why women should become good theologians and not leave it to the men. Very refreshing.
Re the Iron Lady movie, one of my favorite bloggers, Karen Campbell, just posted a great clip from it on her blog at http://www.thatmom.com/2012/05/18/gobbeldygook-evangelicalism/ Karen has really taken the patriocentricity bull by the horns in recent years. 🙂
Dee –
What is concerning to me about the exChristian sites is that most of those people walked away from the faith after their experience(s) in churches. That is what we need to be looking at. Churches can be so self-righteous and put the “problem” on the people who walk away and not look to see if they are part of the problem.
dee on Sat, May 19 2012 at 12:51 pm
Victorious
Any discussion?
Dee, it takes an incredible amount of strength, patience, and grace to stand in the gap for those who are in need of correct teaching and to refute the false on their behalf. It’s a necessary ministry, but one that’s often thankless and unappreciated. I do see both you and Deb as Women of Valor and/or “Iron Ladies” as Iron Clad suggested.
Know that you are appreciated!
Dee, I always wondered what on earth the covering thing was all about. I doubt that anyone will ever be able to pinpoint exactly what it is or how it works. I suspect that it’s just something created to give people a sense of security that they are doing the ‘right’ thing – and of course to give leaders control. At my old church it was difficult to understand who my covering was given that I was single and not from a Christian family. All I really knew was that if I did something on my own initiative and it turned out to not be what some man who was apparently somehow ‘over’ me in some unspecified way wanted me to do, then I would no longer have it and I would be outside of God’s blessing. I’m so glad to have found out that it’s total nonsense!
What bugs me about these conferences most —- THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. PERIOD.
They just keep packaging it up differently and selling it over and over and over and over. When will people realize you don’t have to buy books, CDs, mp3s, tee shirts and matching bible covers to meet with the Lord. You can actually do that at home in your living room all alone with nothing at all. For free.
“They just keep packaging it up differently and selling it over and over and over and over. When will people realize you don’t have to buy books, CDs, mp3s, tee shirts and matching bible covers to meet with the Lord. You can actually do that at home in your living room all alone with nothing at all. For free.”
Exactly! And, “where two or more are gathered in My name”….you have the Body of Christ…
But people don’t go to them to meet with the Lord. They go to them to be “inspired” to meet with the Lord and for that they need the guru’s, books, cd’s etc. Something is very wrong.
Sounds like a youth camp where the men (Don Carson and Tim Keller) are running the show. Can’t have a lot of women getting together with out men to to control everything….. At least that appears to be what the clowns that run the CBMW think
Freedom,
CBMW… I haven’t been over there in a while, so I just checked to see what they’re discussing, and this is the message I read:
http://www.cbmw.org
“Please be patient while we perform maintenance on our site. We apologize for the inconvenience and the site will be functioning normally again in the next few days.”
Pretty much anything marketed to women from a Christian culture standpoint gives me a full-body case of hives. (You’re welcome for that visual.)
But then, I don’t like those yogurt commercials either.
René
Dee and I were talking about all the “stuff” they will probably be selling to this captive audience of female shoppers. Idol worship at its finest.
Deb, “captive audience of female shoppers” is an apt little phrase.
The marketing all over Christiandom drives me nuts. there is a very popular mom blogger (I hesitate to use her name…) who was once my favorite blogger. But now she writes for Dayspring and I swear every time I visit her blog I feel like I’m being pushed into buying dayspring products.
It’s infiltrating the web, even in the conservative fundie mom camps.
Christianity is not commercialization, people! Frustrates me. Maybe just because I’m a minimalist, I don’t know.
“But people don’t go to them to meet with the Lord. They go to them to be “inspired” to meet with the Lord and for that they need the guru’s, books, cd’s etc. Something is very wrong.”
This reminds me of a very good blog post written by Wade Burleson. He wrote that the words in Revelation about being hot, cold or lukewarm have, in his view, been misinterpreted. People tend to think of it as a verse about how spiritually pumped up we are, how ‘sold out’ we are. But he makes a very good case that actually the verse is about whether we are bringing healing (hot) and/or refreshment (cold) to the world, or not (lukewarm).
I think a lot of Christian conferences, and actually a lot of Sunday morning services, are all about getting hyped up and ‘high on God’ rather than anything else.
Dee and Deb,
I think you might consider removing the tweet about most offensive religious jokes on the twitter feed. Some of the jokes were humurous, but thre are a couple that actually make light of abuse and pedophilia. Just thought I would give a heads up.
theoblogue
I tweeted that for people to have information of some of the nonsense that is out there. It startled me that people actually tell these jokes. Note: it does say offensive jokes. If you note, I do not link to Ship of Fools on the blog for that reason.
These tweets are supposed to be informational, not endorsements. I would never endorse a pedophilia joke. In fact, I planned to mention that people tell these jokes the next time I do a post on pedophilia, which, with the way things are going will be sooner rather than later.
Bridget@
That is one aspect. But, to be truthful, I learned the reason most walked away is they were forced to believe in young earth creationism (over 50% of them cite that as a major reason), along with an inability to get reasonable answers to tough questions such as the issues of pain and suffering and why God often appears to be a silent in the face of tragedy.
I had an email correspondence with a man whose name you might recognize. He gave credence to my observation. He is well known debater of the famous atheists and is actually well like by many of them because he is such a wonderfully respectful yet highly intelligent man. But, because of this comment to me, I will keep his name confidential. He said that the leaders in the YE movement have caused lots of problems for the witness of the faith in Europe. It troubles him deeply.
Theoblogue
I forgot to say thank you for watching our back. That is very kind of you. True confession: When I was younger and working in a secular environment, people would tell off color jokes and some of them were terribly offensive. They would happen so quickly that I would often be tongue tied. Later I would think of some come back that might have made the person think beyond “I’m offended”
When I saw those supposed “jokes”, I thought about what I might say about some of these things if someone said that around me. Especially the ones dealing with pedophilia. I have decided what i am going to say if someone tries such joke on me. They will be the recipient of a poignant talk about some kids I knew who were terribly hurt. The culture is so coarse and I am shocked how certain things become something to joke about. Mark Driscoll is the king of such joking within the church.
I am sorry if I did not make that clear.
Virginia Knowles said: “Elyse Fitzpatrick is a professional Christian counselor who used to be a member of SGM, but her web site now lists her as a member of a different, non-SGM church. I heard her at an SGM ladies retreat years ago talking about accountability in women’s friendships. That part was OK, I guess, but her best session by far was at the end on why women should become good theologians and not leave it to the men. Very refreshing.”
The one ladies “talk” I’ve attended at my church in the last ten years was surprisingly good. It was given by Elyse Fitzpatrick, who IMO is a bit of a firecracker amongst the quiet-and-gentle crowd. The talk was based on her book, Because He Loves Me, which addresses how Christians in their pursuit of godliness can and do take their eyes off Jesus and fail to live the truth of the gospel. She asserted (paraphrasing here) that you don’t have to be married, a stay-at-home mother or even a Republican to be a true woman of God. I kinda liked her after that! I hope she speaks as boldly to the “conference Christians” as she did to us.
Sophie said: “I think a lot of Christian conferences, and actually a lot of Sunday morning services, are all about getting hyped up and ‘high on God’ rather than anything else.”
I have 3 teens in my house who have introduced me to Blimey Cow on YouTube. Their recent video commentary addressed this phenomenon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbnJWlFjSFk&feature=player_embedded
Dee – I looked at a couple of the “10 most offensive jokes” the other day and you know… one thing that struck me immediately is that some people really must find them amusing (the pedophilia ones in particular), which is probably the main reason (other than some wanting to upset others by telling such “jokes”) why they exist.
One of the other aspects of that is that much humor – even seemingly inoffensive humor – is balanced on a knife edge. I think that Sacha Baron Cohen (whose work does NOT impress me, though I think he has some talent) is constantly messing with. (I wish he would reinvent himself, in many respects…)
Numo
Thanks for they input. Can you imagine people finding them funny? That is why they are offensive.But, did you ever know people who would deny that a pedophile thing would ever happen in their church or their organization? Denial is just as bad as joking about it. In both respects it is a way to dismiss the horror.
BTW, did you know that there were recent world sports tryouts and a woman from Kazakhstan won. When they played her countries anthem, they made a mistake and play the Borat version. By was she mad.
Dee – Yes, I’ve met some people who probably would find those jokes funny… that’s what’s so disquieting about them.
I went to one “youth” conference as a teenager with my church youth group. My parents were a little doubtful but at that point they trusted me to make informed decisions. They had one rule – absolutely no souvenirs, tshirts, cd’s, etc… All I could buy was food. Smart parents. I think the speaker was Josh Harris (not sure, this would have been in ’02 or ’03) and the theme of the main lecture was “kissing dating goodbye”. He tried to get every teen in the room to agree to “kiss dating goodbye” for at least one year. I blew it all off as another stupid man trying to control my private life and refused to buy the book. From what I have heard from my friends, these women’s conferences are remarkably similar. The money-spending opportunities are limitless. Thank goodness my disabilities provide the perfect excuse to stay away from the madness.
I think a lot of Christian conferences, and actually a lot of Sunday morning services, are all about getting hyped up and ‘high on God’ rather than anything else. — Sophie
And what about the hangover when you come down off the high?
Dee and I were talking about all the “stuff” they will probably be selling to this captive audience of female shoppers. — Deb
God as Blue-Light Special at K-Mart?
René at 03:25 pm
“Pretty much anything marketed to women from a Christian culture standpoint gives me a full-body case of hives. (You’re welcome for that visual.)”
Me too! How about a new product?
Christian-Women’s-Culture Allergy Capsules: For thinking women who can’t stomach it!
I don’t think that believers can become non-believers and lose their salvation, but this is an “in-house” issue among Christians. Also, I don’t think that behavior provides conclusive proof as to one’s salvation. Judas Iscariot’s behavior was probably very convincing until he betrayed Jesus.
IronClad – Since you brought up the question: Meryl Streep has won three Oscars, but the champ is still Katharine Hepburn with four. However, no one has been nominated more times than Streep – 17.
anonymous, I wish I had been as smart as you and smelled a rat rather than being sucked in. And I wish I had listened to my non-Christian parents when they showed concern (horror, really) about me getting rid of all my secular music and agreeing to ask permission of my youth group leader before dating anybody (my parents themselves would never have dreamed of getting me to ask permission to date someone!).
Of course there’s nothing inherently wrong with taking some time out from dating/courting/whatever, in fact it can be a great thing, but it has to be between a person and God, not between a conference speaker and everyone in the room. Sometimes I feel that churches don’t believe that young people have any kind of moral compass or parental guidance.
HUG
There no doubt about it – you do get a high from these conferences, and then comes the let down…
HUG,
For me the hangover was every Sunday afternoon when the high of the service was finished and we’d all march out triumphantly to a local pub, all twenty-something of us students, and eat lunch and not leave a tip and then sit around until the evening service, and then hang out til midnight or so. The disconnect between my day-to-day life and the high of the services was very difficult to deal with. I don’t know how other people managed it – I suppose they must have had much better lives than me somehow. We’d be in there and we’d hear about our mission for humanity’s eternity, how much the world needed the Jesus we had, “cry out for the lost!”, “intercede for the world!” etc etc… and then nothing. The world would go on as usual.
It was also hard to deal with the guilt factor. I felt guilty when I didn’t praise the Lord ecstatically in Sunday services, but then why would I? I run to church to get there on time, it’s 11am and drums are pounding and electric guitars are screeching; this is my introduction to the day and it’s hard to take. Anyway, I’m an introvert, I’m the kind of person who would sit quietly and cry, preferably in a corner, if I were worshipping and communing with God. I don’t have the holy, dynamic, loud leaderhip personality I’m meant to have and fills me with guilt. The disconnect between my life and the church service in which all things are TRIUMPHANT and VICTORIOUS and POSSIBLE and FEARLESS and exuberantly expressed, fills me with guilt. And all my questions fill me with guilt because I know I’m supposed to worship through the doubt, which is presumably why no one can give me any answers. One of the last times I was in a church was in the world’s biggest church in Seoul. I just sat there and felt cheated. Cheated because of all the time I’d spent in my life sitting in churches for no real reason.
The hangover is bad because I miss the community and I miss God. However, I don’t miss the guilt and I enjoy being free to question things and think what I really think. I don’t miss wishing I had a different, more godly (godly = loud, outgoing) personality. I don’t know how much of it is my fault and how much is the fault of the churches I went to, but I’m very wary of getting involved again.
Didn’t mean to write that much!
Rene:
I agree with much of what these conference speakers will say with respect to the Bible and gender.
However, I also agree with you that Christian conferences marketed to women give me the creeps, too.
I have said on this site before, and will say again, that for some reason Christian women conferences and movements have some cultural aspects that get woven into the biblical discussion that become as important as the Bible. The women are all supposed to look, speak, dress, cook, educate their children and live exactly the same, and it’s usually some weird sort of cultural expression to boot.
I have scratched my head for decades trying to figure out why this is. It is a mystery that I will not solve until I reach the other side, and then, I won’t care.
Sophie,
Are you me? 🙂
Susan Hunt is with the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and has been foundational in steering Reformed and Presbyterian churches model of women’s ministries. She was formerly the Women in the Church (WIC) consultant for the PCA and is now the Women’s Ministry Consultant for Christian Education and Publications (CEP) within the PCA. This is, as well, a shared committee with the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC). Susan is a graduate of the University of South Carolina and Columbia Theological Seminary in education. She’s written lots of books/curricula on the “Titus 2 Model” of older women teaching younger women within women’s ministry and is a well-known, highly respected, and beloved matriarch within Presbyterian circles. Her desire to help women have a heart for each other, the church, the Reformed faith is unquestioned. Some of her books include: “Spiritual Mothering”, “By Design”, “True Woman”, “Heirs of the Covenant”, the Biblical Foundations for Womanhood Bible Study series, and the new 3-year Bible study series for teen girls. I have, or have read, most of these. For a church desiring to begin a WIC, Susan’s curriculum is the one that is used, exclusively, to put everyone on the same page, as it were: http://equip.pcacep.org/wic-101–women-in-the-church-in-the-pca.html It was in reading “By Design” and “Spiritual Mothering” I first learnt, in a concrete, tangible way, the dogma known as “complementarianism”…
I met Susan in Atlanta at a WIC conference a couple of years ago. She’s a lovely, woman; the epitome of gracious, Southern Womanhood…at least to my Yankee sensibilities. She is soft-spoke, petite, almost frail but knowledgable and firm in her convictions. The velvet glove over the iron fist, if you will, and very well-versed in doctrine and application thereof. My sadness is that she fails to understand how her books have damaged so many lives in the 20-odd years they’ve been taught. The PCA church I left has been trying since 1994 to get a WIC started and it’s still not happening, mostly because of disagreements over the dogmas being taught in Susan’s curriculum.
This is a powerful line-up of speakers, and Susan Hunt, although probably the oldest woman in the queue, is the one that probably taught them all in one way or another.
Laura,
Thank you for your comment regarding Susan Hunt. I will admit that I don’t know that much about her, but I have seen her name listed with those who are in full support of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. The CBMW website is currently down, but here is a link that shows a list of CBMW conferences at which she has spoken.
CBMW Conferences
Her name shows up five times on this list. For example, Susan Hunt spoke at a Different by Design Conference (2008). The focus was Women’s Ministry in the Local Church. Ligon Duncan and Randy Stinson also spoke at this CBMW conference. It appears that she has been a colleague of the CBMW folks for quite a while.
I do find it quite interesting that Susan is well-educated, having attended seminary. The CBMW crowd does not encourage this as far as I can discern.
MM, a product like Christian-Women’s-Culture Allergy Capsules: For thinking women who can’t stomach it! would certainly have a market. I’m a bit worried about the side effects, though. 😉
Sophie, I really identify with your fish-out-of-water story re: being an introvert in a church culture that only seems to value extroverts.
It reminds me of this book, which is on my Amazon wishlist. Have you read it?
Vicky, it’s a comfort to know that someone can relate to what I wrote 🙂
Rene, it’s on my wishlist. Another good one is ‘Quiet’ by Susan Cain. It addresses the extrovert church phenomenon a little bit, too, although it’s not written specifically about Christians.
Anonymous, you wrote:
“I have said on this site before, and will say again, that for some reason Christian women conferences and movements have some cultural aspects that get woven into the biblical discussion that become as important as the Bible. The women are all supposed to look, speak, dress, cook, educate their children and live exactly the same, and it’s usually some weird sort of cultural expression to boot.
I have scratched my head for decades trying to figure out why this is.”
I often wonder what kind of “women’s ministry” I could feel comfortable with. What would it look like? What would it do? What wouldn’t it do? Am I just an insufferable fussypants?
The closest I can get to is to something like Missionaries of Charity – (said, of course, as a naive post-evangelical.)
Here’s more info on Susan Hunt.
Just discovered an interesting book Becoming God’s True Woman which she co-wrote with these individuals: Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Susan Hunt, Mary A. Kassian, C. J. Mahaney, Barbara Hughes, Pancheta Wilson, and Dorothy Kelley Patterson
Not only that, Susan Hunt is involved with Revive our Hearts (Nancy Leigh DeMoss) which sells all her books. She has also spoken at a Revive Our Hearts event.
That’s all the proof I need. Birds of a feather…
René and Sophie – I subverted my own dislike of loud music in the a.m. by becoming one of the musicians at my church.
Believe it or not, holding down my part in the din was a *lot* better than being out front, jolted by it. 😉 (Not really joking; I enjoyed playing, even though I disliked most of the songs and have an aversion to overloud amplification and all that…)
René – I loved that video about yogurt commercials!
It would be interesting to see the US and Canadian commercials put alongside European yogurt commercials. Can’t imagine that European ad agencies would be pitching yogurt to women only…!
Yoghurt gets pitched to women in the US? Low-fat or fat free yoghurt does, over here. But stuff like yoghurt drinks, Actimel or Yakult or something, that’s aimed at a general audience.
Hi Sophie and Numo,
I can relate a lot to what you are saying, though at different periods of my life.
It’s impolite to ask a lady her age so I won’t ask Sophie when she was a student 😉 However I do remember when I was one myself there was an unspoken belief going around, apparently encouraged by some churches, that the more we praised God, the more he would work. The evangelical writer John White once drily referred to “praise power”. It got to the stage where one leader in my college group seemed to think we should be spending all our time in the meeting praising God rather than interceding (at least that was the impression I had at the time).
However if you take this view to its logical extreme, it comes across at best as mechanistic (a sort of divine cause and effect) and at worst as manipulation of God. As C S Lewis remarked “Aslan is not a tame lion”. But I feel some worship, at least to me, comes across that way – as if God can’t act without his people’s praises, whereas in fact he didn’t need such to call the created order into being or influence the heart of, say, Cyrus.
More in a minute after I watered my animals… 🙂
(cont’d)
Also I think students are very much targeted in the UK, and possibly elsewhere, to be reached for Christ, and in turn to reach others for Christ. It coincides at a time in a person’s life when they are most likely to be zealous for a cause – I remember when in the UK the number of students committing themselves to Marxism was quite high (doubt there are many now by comparison). Perhaps when we were students we were at that stage we felt (or were encouraged to feel) that it was our job to change the world.
I agree that over the years I’ve actually come more to appreciate quiet and reflection in church rather than noise, even noise to the glory of God, but that may just be me at my current stage of life (Grumpy Old Man).
Numo, I too play in church, and I too have felt at times that I was happier to be in the church band playing than in the pews doing the actions for the children’s song(s)! But maybe that reflects more on me.
Hi Kolya, we didn’t have ‘Praise Power’. I;m sure, though, that if it had been a fashionable belief when I was a student then my church would have adopted it. We had the whole ‘life and death is in the tongue’ belief taken quite literally, though. So we would ‘renounce’ and ‘resist’ things. I remember at a session for women we were renouncing and resisting things by standing in a circle and shouting ‘spirit of ______, we resist you!’ (because of course ‘resist the devil and he will flee from you’ translates in a certain kind of literalist’s mind as ‘shout about resisting the devil, and he’ll hear and run away’). And I remember we were supposed to shout ‘spirit of lesbianism, we resist you! Flee!’ or something like that. And I remember feeling so weird about it. It just seemed to me – and still seems to me, actually – that the way to resist ‘the spirit’ of lesbianism, if such a thing exists, is by just not doing lesbian things. Standing in a circle shouting about it just seemed so absurd. The focus on ‘spirits of _____’ and shouting at them just made me feel as if these evil spirits were lurking everywhere, ready to pop out at me should I venture into the wrong place, which made meeting anyone new difficult.
I think students make easy targets, Kolya. They have left home, possibly ventured far away, and are young, and need a sense of security and a hot home-cooked meal now and again. I bet that if a church can offer those things then there’s a high retention rate. Plus they are young and their minds are pliable since they are out in the world experiencing new things for the first time.
Hi Sophie, I understand what you mean. Yes, I have heard those references to “spirit of….” referred to. I know Galatians tells us not to fall back into a spirit of slavery, but I’m not sure if it is to be understood in the way you mention your (previous?) church did. And I think it can lead to an obsessive interest in, and fear of, spirits which I do not think is biblical or healthy. Colossians talks about Christ leading the various principalities and powers (however one interprets that) as captives in his victory parade, which suggests that their power is not that great, at least for a believer.
Re students, it’s interesting you say that as the International Church of Christ was particularly keen on targeting students. I think cults in general love young people who are away from home.
It’s difficult to research CBMW when its website is down, but I have been able to verify that Susan Hunt is a Council Member for CBMW.
John Robinson provides the information on his website under Introducing CBMW.
“Who else is involved in CBMW? You will instantly recognize many of our leaders. J. Ligon Duncan III serves as chairman of our board, C.J. Mahaney and Wayne Grudem also serve on our governing board. Many of you will recognize these names as excellent authors, conference speakers and Reformed evangelical leaders. CBMW council members include John Piper, R. Albert Mohler Jr., Paige Patterson, Bruce Ware, Susan Hunt, Josh Harris, Mary Kassian and Daniel L. Akin among several others.”
Not wishing to be snide, but I’ve noticed in evangelical circles people often seem to assume that introducing someone as a sports lover (whether baseball in the US or soccer in the UK) will provide some sort of credibility with the audience 😉 Do you think that would happen if said introductee’s passion was, say, keeping snakes?
JeffB
“I don’t think that believers can become non-believers and lose their salvation, but this is an “in-house” issue among Christians. Also, I don’t think that behavior provides conclusive proof as to one’s salvation. Judas Iscariot’s behavior was probably very convincing until he betrayed Jesus.” I used to believe exactly like you. I changed my mind after 5 years of intense discussions with former believers.
Kolya on Sun, May 20 2012 at 05:23 pm:
“However I do remember when I was one myself there was an unspoken belief going around, apparently encouraged by some churches, that the more we praised God, the more he would work. The evangelical writer John White once drily referred to “praise power”.”
This notion is contradictory to the Calvinista belief God is following His plan for us, which is exact and immutable down to the last detail. If there is any hint in one’s theology that God changes in reaction to human behavior, that is “open theism” by definition!
Sophie – can you (or anyone else) provide a link to the post by Wade Burleson about hot/lukewarm/cold? I’d like to read that. I have often wondered about the interpretation of this verse myself. My pastor once made a similar point in a sermon.
Dee and Deb – Hi, it’s my first time commenting. 🙂 I really appreciate your site. I’ve been reading regularly for probably almost a year now. I am thankful for how the Lord has used your writing (among other things) to change some wrong attitudes in my life. God has blessed you with a lot of grace and tact!
Dee,
An interesting difference of opinion on this was expressed by Francis Schaeffer. He was of the opinion that the Bible’s teaching was that a believer could not throw away his or her salvation, even if they found themselves currently in a state of unbelief. This was expressed in some of his letters.
I’m not sure where the idea comes from that a person was never one of the elect if they fall away or backslide. If it is from 1 John, I have myself understood that to refer to false teachers and cultists rather than individual Christians who may be in a state of unbelief.
Jan
Tact! Thank you so much. Sometimes I feel like a bull in a china shop. I needed that encouragement this evening.
Kolya
I did not know of Schaeffer’s view on that. I had a pastor who would agree with that thought.It is a struggle for me as I have become convinced that some of the people that I have spoken with over an extensive period of time were believers. if they were not believers then I can not be sure that I am a believer. They described their former faith to a tee.I think it is most complicated. I do know this. if someone wishes to remain a believer, God will make sure that happens. The questions for is what happens when the no long want to? Who knows. One day I may change my mind.
Hi Dee,
In a way Schaeffer’s view encourages us to think that a person may not remain in a state of unbelief. I remember one or two cases where I thought friends had drifted away or denounced church for good, but came back years later. I understand the theological rationale for why people who apparently desert the faith are described as having never been true believers, but I agree with you that it does not seem to ring true in many cases. I think often there has been some hurt or anger there that may take time to heal.
Equally however I think some people do leave for less sympathetic reasons, but they tend not to be the ones crowding Internet sites.
Kayla: One correction if I may on your comment. The Reformed view is not if you fall away or momentarily don’t believe you lose your salvation. Characters in scripture went through that and still had their salvation. David was called “The Man After God’s own heart” and he did some pretty bad stuff.
The teaching is if a person falls away, shows no sign of repentance, ever, and walks away from Christ not ever returning, it would be time to question that person’s salvation.
numo, I’m glad you liked that yogurt video. I hoped you would!
Kolya and Sophie: your descriptions of “praise power” an renouncing spirits of this and that remind me of having encountered (and believed) these things in my own life, at various points in time.
iirc, the “praise power” thing was big in the early-mid 70s, with proof-texting (God inhabits the praises of his people) to supposedly prove it.
The renunciation of “spirits” is – in my experience, at least – directly tied to a profound belief in the demonic, as well as in the (imo, very misguided) idea that somehow xtians are supposed to be “reclaiming territory” (as in literal, physical places) from the devil and his minions. I think the two have been closely tied for some time here in the US, as they’re a product of the Dominionist wing of the charismatic movement (with plenty of help from the discipleship movement people).
I kind of hate to drag mentions of current politics into comments here, but – since you two are from the UK – you might want to Google “Rick Perry” and “prayer rally.” He was a prospective candidate for the Rep. party presidential nomination – and he held a very big rally in a stadium in Texas last summer, with tons of Dominionist and “third wave” spokespeople in attendance.
It was – for me, at least – a very frightening conflation of religion and politics…
René – de nada! She’s a good comedienne (the woman in the vid; am blanking on her name right now).
Funny how there were no “Greek yogurt” commercials in the mix, though… (I can’t even figure out why it’s called “Greek” here in the US, since yogurt is staple throughout the Middle East and in many parts of the former USSR).
Kolya – I hate having to do hand motions and whatnot!
LOLZ on “keeping snakes.”
Sophie – can you (or anyone else) provide a link to the post by Wade Burleson about hot/lukewarm/cold?
Wade Burleson > Lukewarm Churches Are Those That Neither Heal Nor Refresh
numo,
Even Newt Gingrich tried to lasso right wing evangelicals in the Bible Belt by plying them with “values” loaded rhetoric about getting back to the good old days the true “vision” of the founders.
Muff – I know. In his case, it’s pretty ridiculous.
But Texas kind of scares me…
Thank you so much for the link, Thy Peace. Good reading – this explanation makes much more sense to me.
Texas is a pretty scary place. In my county, we elected a totally unqualified man to be county treasurer, turning out a 20 year veteran who, months before the election, was recognized as the best county treasurer in the state. Even friends in the party of the winner were astounded.
We have a school funding situation where the budgets have been severely cut, and schools in communities of wealth are getting more state money per pupil than schools in communities of poverty. More offenses are being created and more become felonies, with most of the lobbying coming from the private prison industry and companies that benefit from prisoner labor.
It is now a crime to lie about the size of your fish you caught!
Arce –
Is it a crime . . . or a fine for those scrawny fish? A fine that brings income to the state is great, but jail time that is at the cost of the tax payer is loony.
Dee, I’m glad I could be encouraging. You might be even more encouraged to know that, in all honesty, I am probably one of the tea cups in the “china shop.” Or at least I was – frequenting this site has opened my eyes to a lot of things (like I said, changed some attitudes) and made me less… fragile. 🙂 I go to a church that is probably about as conservative as it gets (used to be some VF ties but not so much anymore as VF is just getting way too strange/self-promoting/exclusive/conference-obsessed even if we are theologically very similar). And, coming from this perspective, I think you do a fine job bringing to light the flaws/potential damage of certain beliefs when they are either a) placed in the wrong hands and allowed to be used as weapons to bludgeon people with, or b) taken to extremes regardless of who is hurt. When I first started reading here, it scared me to death – felt threatening I guess. But you are gracious (tactful!) enough and I was fascinated enough that I kept reading – just wanting to understand why so many people are getting hurt. It’s been eye-opening. I suspect/hope there are others like me quietly observing from the more fundamental end of the spectrum. Something’s gotta give (namely, the church misplacing the blame for its losses). Don’t give up.
Jan, what a great comment.
For the record. In my travels and also in my Army service some of the most honor bound men I’ve ever had dealings with were Southerners. Robert E. Lee was the greatest exponent of this rich tradition. Would that all men (and women too) regardless of regional origin emulate his character.
A crime. If in a contest with prizes, a low grade felony.
Muff,
Keep in mind that it is a high level sense of “honor” that leads to the killing of rape victims in much of the world. Honor can be taken to an extreme. It is also the force behind many of the lynchings in the Jim Crow South when a black man was perceived to have looked at a white woman — that he had dishonored her by looking at her.
Jan,
We are so glad that you’re here! We couldn’t believe the stuff we were uncovering almost four years ago. It’s still shocking from time to time. I hope you will continue to comment.
I have not been to a women’s conference or women’s retreat in years; so, I am not familiar with most of these women. Before my first visit to this site TWW two months ago, I did not even hear of words like “Calvinistas”, the “YRR” crowd…
That said, I have known for years, however, there is a teaching out there that seems so extreme to me, I just called it the “radicals in today’s Calvinism” (my terminology) after listening to some sermons and one or two conferences associated with a mega church.
What bothers me more than anything else is the teaching that God foreordains some folks to hell. Double predestination is the word, I think. One leg is election, which is perfectly fine with me, the other leg is condemnation for those who are not the elect. This decree of reprobation is brutal and devastating to those who think they are not the “elect”. This doctrine is so incompatible with the nature of God, LOVE. God is rich in mercy, in grace, in kindness, in my Book, the Bible.
What concerns me is because people are influenced by what they believe; is it possible that some of the folks from this movement come across as cold, uncaring and self-righteous because they are the “elect”? and the non-elect are looked down upon? I believe in election and God’s sovereignty but the interpretation is very important here. This YRR pushes it way too far…
I feel a danger in the belief and teaching of this absolute absolute sovereignty of God to the n-degree which may, I think, lead to extreme authoritarianism in the sphere of man. Perhaps this same thing may even serve to pave the way for the Anti-Christ for his absolute dictatorship in the coming days? Somehow this new and religious YRR generation will have been prepared when that day comes??? Perhaps I am thinking too far; so, I will stop and welcome your comments.
Kelly,
You are spot on! Good for you!!!
Yes, our term Calvinista means “radicals in today’s Calvinism”. Most of them are young and highly impressionable. You’re not the only one who believes they come across as self-righteous. They have the correct theological interpretations, and woe be unto anyone who disagrees with them, especially a “gullible and easily deceived” woman!
Thanks for commenting, and I hope you’ll continue to chime in.
Thank you Rene. And Deb, thanks for the kind welcome. Will try to keep commenting but the noise level in my house is pretty concentration-shattering most of the time! Definitely will be continuing to read though.
Kelly,
I believe that God is absolutely sovereign. But sovereignty is the ability or power to carry out whatever you choose to do. God has chosen to love and be merciful, to the point of sending Jesus, who said whoever believes will have eternal life. Sovereignty is not having a script for everyone’s life that they play out willy-nilly. God created us to be able to respond to his mercy and grace and accept his great gift of Grace.
I have just received an email from CRUDE (Campus Crusade for Christ) promoting a new book by Matt Chandler with quotes from David Platt, Mark Dever, Ed Stetzer. Are these men in the YRR group? I am not surprised CRUDE is doing this.
____________________________________________________________
The Explicit Gospel
A Call to True Christianity, to Know the Gospel Explicitly
Free Bonus When You Buy 4 Copies
Too few people attending church today, even those in evangelical churches, are exposed to the gospel explicitly. Sure, many will hear about Jesus, and about being good and avoiding bad, but the gospel message simply isn’t there–at least not in its specificity and its fullness.
Inspired by the needs of both the overchurched and the unchurched, and bolstered by the common neglect of the explicit gospel within Christianity, Matt Chandler has written this punchy treatise. He begins with the specifics of the gospel–outlining what it is and what it is not–and then switches gears to focus on the fullness of the gospel and its massive implications on both personal and cosmic levels.
Recognizing our tendency to fixate on either the micro or macro aspects of the gospel, Chandler also warns us of the dangers on either side–of becoming overly individualistic or syncretistic. Here is a call to true Christianity, to know the gospel explicitly, and to unite the church on the amazing grounds of the good news of Jesus! Find out why Rick Warren says: “If you only read one book this year make it this one. It’s that important.”
Arce and Deb,
Thanks for your comments. I am not convinced that the Holy Spirit, gentle as a dove, is pleased to reside in the stainless steel cage of this extreme teaching which comes across harsh and unmerciful. I wonder if all the imbalances in doctrines may come from an incomplete gospel, in the absence of which, they have to compensate, by having some add-ons, like complementarianism, for instance, resulting in lop-sidedness, possible distortions and aberrations…
Is Jesus enough? Is He not the all-sufficient Savior? Is the gospel enough? The cults and cult-like teachers do not think so, apparently.
Kelly,
Both of my daughters have been involved with Campus Crusade for Christ. In recent months I have become aware of what I consider to be an over-emphasis of the YRR crowd. I have seen the resources they recommend, and as a parent I am extremely concerned! I do plan on writing about this in the near future.
By the way, I learned that Crude refers their new converts to Mars Hill in the Seattle Metropolitan area.
Anybody heard of Martha Peace? Years ago a friend had given me one of her books.
Eagle,
You wrote: “I would be fascinated to find out if any of the folks from CCC in metro Seattle have been burned or hammered.”
Sorry, I have no knowledge of this. I happen to know two men on staff with CCC; both are very nice brothers in Christ to me. I am on their mailing lists, so, I get emails and so forth. I do not get involved in CCC activities, per se and I am usually the last one to know if anything is going on. Imagine, I discovered this TWW only 2 months ago!
I am concerned when certain doctrines might hurt people or make them feel hopeless or the flock are being abused by people over them…
Anybody heard of Martha Peace?
Hi. I usually just lurk here but I do have a Martha Peace testimony.
A few years ago I read a book of hers called “The Excellent Wife” or something similar. I was not having any trouble in my marriage or anything. I was just wondering if there were some way I could perhaps be more of a blessing to my husband, who is very happy as it is. (Yes, I know I could have just asked him but I kind of wanted it to be a surprise.) This book seemed to be all the rage in certain circles so I figured, why not?
I found her very off putting almost from page 1, but I couldn’t tell you exactly why. It seemed like she was always looking for an excuse to rebuke her reader, almost like she had some kind of quota she had to meet or some kind of obligation to rebuke people, like she wasn’t doing it right if she didn’t. She would (from my point of view) sort of assign a guilt to her reader she could not possibly confirm and treat them as though this guilt-by-imagination was real.
The first time I noticed this was probably innocent enough but it still couldn’t help being a yellow flag. She rather wisely said we (the readers) should confess the sin in our lives and should take the time right now to do so. That was all well and good, except I was bothered by the way she did it in that she did not qualify it at all. She did not say, for example, confess any sin the Holy Spirit may be convicting you of. She prejudged that there was in fact unconfessed sin in our lives and we needed to deal with it now. It came off to me as though she were assuming the role of Holy Spirit herself. I had to read that part at least 3 times to make sure I was not making too much of it, but it just kept coming off to me that way.
The next thing, and this was probably the most striking to me, was when she presented the wonderful truth that we have everything we need (to do God’s will) in Christ. I was so blessed to be reminded of this truth (I hate to say part of that was because her finally saying something that was actually a blessing was like an oasis in the desert) that I stopped reading after that sentence and had a little praise party, thanking God for His wonderful provision, because this blessed truth provoked the attitude of coming boldly before the Throne to find the grace to help in time of need, in full expectation of supply. After that I continued reading. She said a few more things along those lines for about a paragraph, and then concluded not with an encouragement to boldly receive from our Father the riches He supplies in His Son, but instead said, “therefore we are without excuse.” I kid you not. She actually went from we have everything we need in Christ Jesus to therefore we are without excuse. She used the wonderful promise of supply from our Father who delights to give good gifts to His children to slap her reader in the face.
This kind of tone was throughout the book. The last particular one I remember was when she said something about God being in control — normally a comfort to the believer. But Martha Peace says God is in control whether we like it or not.
(Ya feeling the love yet?)
I found this all very disturbing and I was reading this with no sense of need. I kept thinking about women in unhappy marriages and wondering how this sounded to them.
I finally made it through the book, though it took ages as I could only stomach so much at once. I found in the end I had a choice. I could take what she said or I could ditch it. I mentally “tried on” taking what she said and found the fruit in my spirit was immediate and it was all bad. If I took what she said — which would necessarily include her unsubstantiated rebukes because I was not able to separate that from whatever else she was teaching — it must necessarily change my self perception as well as my attitude and to a lesser degree my behavior. Had I taken her teaching I would have become the Nazi wife from hell and my happy husband would become miserable and my happy marriage be ruined. I decided the best thing I could do for my marriage was to throw the book in the trash. So I did. Which, incidentally, is why I can’t give direct quotes and page numbers. I kind of regret throwing it away for that reason. But I’m not about to buy it again.
But the thing that bugged me the most by far was definitely the rebukes and underlying prejudgment against her readers. I can’t remember ever reading anything like that before. It seemed so practiced and intentional, it was like she went to a cooking school that taught her how to make sure all her food tastes bad because they had the philosophy that it’s wrong for food to taste good.
The “Excellent Wife” is the book I have. Although I sensed it long ago, before I got to the point were Iam at now and know what I’m really dealing with, there is no love with these type of people. They will claim they are full of God’s love but it’s not there. Being in different churches over the years, I’ve never seen it. What I’ve witnessed is a judgemental and a self-righteous attitude towards people that are not like them. They think that they are above everybody with their “walk with God.” These people are REALLY dulusional about themselves, very narcissistic.
Stormy,
I’m glad it’s not just me!
Yeah, no love. Clanging gongs.
I started reading The Excellent Wife many years ago but ended up throwing the book in the trash. This was a long time ago but, even then, I recognized that she was way over the top in her idea of submission. As I remember, it was along the lines of “do whatever you husband tells you to do and trust God to bail you out.” I also had an eye-opening experience during that time. I found out about a women’s Bible study in my church that was studying The Excellent Wife. Many of the pastor’s wives were in the study so I was hesitant to go because I was afraid I wouldn’t fit in. A friend kept encouraging me to go so I finally went – but only once. I’m not sure if anyone even spoke to me (if they did it was just an acknowledgement that I was there) but I clearly remember not being welcome. Love and grace were not to be found in the book or in the group. For this and many other reasons, I eventually left that church.
Anonymous, Abigail and Stormy,
I did not read the book but I know the kind of people you are talking about. I ran into these women before, trying to convey their spirituality without love. I never felt love around these folks, moreover, I think they are like cold fish and I stay away. They don’t like me either. So be it.
Anonymous, I hope you copy and paste that book review to Amazon! That was superb.
I imagine she probably was heavy on submission. I never could quite get to the point of figuring out just what she was saying because her clanging gonging was so much in the way I couldn’t really hear anything else. The how of her communication really overrode the what.
But that whole without love thing is what I mean when I say I would become a Nazi wife from hell. This kind of teaching kills love, and like everything else in God’s creation, it bears fruit after its own kind. Bad tree = bad fruit.
Rene,
I might just do that!
I’m still trying to wrap my mind around this. For just one moment, I would like to be in John Piper’s or Tim Keller’s shoes.
What would it be like to be one of just two men at a conference full of submissive Stepford women? Most importantly, how would it feel to have all the men’s rooms all to myself while thousands of women wait in long lines reflecting on my message on how to be a more patient woman?
David C
Bathroom equity – a hot button issue for women. Well, at least Piper says women do not need his permission to use one so some of the pressure is off.
Did Piper really say that? I want to see the context.
And also, will Piper and Keller be whisked in and out of the conference just for their speaking appointments, or will they actually sit in the audience and (horror) listen to women speak? Heaven forbid they might learn something from women which is a sin. How will that work? Will they wear ear plugs when they are not speaking?
“The Gospel Coalition’s 2012 National Women’s Conference is for women but not all about women. It’s about the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
And I’m assuming the men’s conference is “not all about men,” and children’s activities are not supposed to be “all about children.” So if all of these things are about Jesus, and not about the people attending, why don’t we have one conference with all believers attending, since all conferences have the same goal? It just seems odd to insist on the unimportance of humans but then turn around and be concerned with gender segregation and proper roles. Is this just me?
By the way, if I hear the term “it’s not all about [you, me, women, us] it’s about God” one more time I think I’m going to scream. It has become nothing but a platitude and I am thoroughly unconvinced of its helpfulness. If you want to know how God asks us to view ourselves in relation to him, read the Bible, not a trendy statement that can be applied however the current leader wants to apply it.
I’ve noticed that people who say “it’s not all about you” usually turn around and make it about you. Instead of saying, “Look what God has done/is doing” they say “It’s not about YOU. Why are YOU still thinking it’s about you? YOU should stop doing that. YOU should focus on God more, or he’s going to be mad at YOU.”
@ sad observer
“So if all of these things are about Jesus, and not about the people attending, why don’t we have one conference with all believers attending, since all conferences have the same goal?”
It would seem it is so everyone knows their place in the hierarchy. It certainly doesn’t advance the oneness that Jesus prayed for – instead it keeps us aware of our otherness so some can lord it over others!
MM: Exactly! It seems rather….hypocritical. It’s supposedly not all about us….but it is, because it’s about where WE stand in the hierarchy amongst other people.