Andy Davis is Biblical; I’m Not

"It could be a sign of pride in your life if a word of reproof or admonition is not able to be received with the same grace, whether it be given by the poorest of saints or the most educated person." John Bunyan
 

aurora borealis over Norway-NASA

Aurora Borealis over Norway-NASA

 

TWW continues in the analysis of Davis’ “reformation.” I will state the bottom line up front. Unless you agree with his view of gender and authority and totally support his self- proclaimed “Biblical” view, you are most likely wicked and unregenerate. And I think this sort of thinking sounds like overreaching arrogance. Perhaps he did not mean for his article to be interpreted thusly. Unfortunately, he gave little reason for me to see it any other way.

However, the real agenda is stated by him at the end of this post. And frankly, it is deeply disturbing. Do not miss it because it spells out how much trouble the post-evngelical church is about to experience.

Please refer to yesterday's post for some background. Here is the link to Davis' article which was posted on the  9 Marks blog.
 

Did Davis announce his Calvinista leanings and view on gender prior to his call to FBC?

Here is what he says.

“As I prepared to assume the role of senior pastor at FBC, I knew there was a significant flaw in the polity of the church that I would have to address: the issue of gender and authority.

We have reason to believe that Davis may not have revealed his intentions prior to his arrival at FBC, Durham. In fact, his narrative clearly indicates a church that was blind-sided by his absolute, singular emphasis on gender and authority. There has been some discussion on our blog, and others, that some pastors, who receive a call to a church, do not fully explain their view on Scripture. Then they pull a bait and switch and whine when the people do not march lockstep. We believe that deliberate concealment of intentions to change church polity is dishonest and we certainly hope that this is not true of this situation.

Davis believes that women in leadership is unbiblical and outright states that Gordon- Conwell seminary is guilty of unbiblical teaching.

“Now I personally believe that 1 Timothy 3:11 allows for women to be deacons, but I also believe that deacons are in no way to “teach or have authority over a man,” as 1 Timothy 2:12 puts it.”

“My master of divinity degree from the egalitarian Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary had taught me the best arguments for “evangelical feminism,” and I had come to reject them as unbiblical.”

Here is little known fact about your glam blog queen. A wonderful couple, who were attending Gordon Conwell, reached out in friendship to this then shy, brand new Christian and helped me to find some fellowship in the Boston area. I was allowed to sit in on some classes at this seminary and even sat in on the great Elizabeth Elliot’s class. Now, as many of our readers will know, she is hardly a liberal. In fact, Harold Ockenga, and Haddon Robinson, have all been involved at the seminary.

Davis shows his disdain for such spiritual giants by his arrogant pronouncement of the teaching at Gordon-Conwell.. “Andy Davis, you are no Harold Ockenga or Elizabeth Elliot and you should be ashamed."

Frankly, he could have simply stated that disagreed with their interpretation. But such kindness is not in keeping with "my way or the highway" beliefs.

Davis demonstrates his naivete by assuming that the majority would agree with his plan to change those demon bylaws since they were “clearly" unbiblical.

The bylaws allowed for female deacons and it is apparent that he knew it when he accepted the offer.

“As I went to Durham to assume the role of senior pastor, I naïvely assumed that the church simply needed to change its by-laws back to the way they were in 1988, and all would be well. In fact, I was entering a spiritual war zone.”

He tells a woman not to run for deacon and is startled by her response.

"In the conversation, I asked her to refrain from pursuing the office until I had a chance to teach first the deacons and then the church about my convictions on gender and authority. She bristled. And later she would say that I threatened to preach a sermon about her if she didn’t withdraw.

Interestingly, he did end up preaching one heckuva “repent you wicked people" sermon. So he did preach against her indirectly.  She got it; I get it and I bet others did as well.

He claimed that he wanted people to delight in the clear teaching of Scripture.

“My next step was to write a paper entitled “Gender and Authority in the Church” and to present it at a special Saturday session to the whole deacon board. It was one of the worst meetings I’ve ever attended.

"It became clear how divided our church was. Some of the deacons truly delighted in the clear teaching of Scripture. Others were aghast and enraged.” 

Of course his clear teaching was that women should not be deacons. So, if I disagree with his clear teaching, does that mean I don't "delight" in Scripture?

Apparently he “knows” that his is the only clear teaching and everyone else must be wrong. You will see what he says later on that will confirm this.

Davis mindreads the response of some deacons.

“I remember the horrible looks on the face of the most powerful leader of the deacons. At one point, I was teaching them that God has prescribed in Scripture how the church should conduct its life together, and along the way I referred to the moment when God struck Uzzah dead for his irreverent act of touching the ark. At that moment, this deacon recoiled in his chair, appalled. He gestured down at the open Bible on the table before him and said, “I could never believe in a God like that!”

Does he really know what the deacon meant? Could he have been appalled that Davis was equating the use of that passage and the conflicts at FBC? It sure sounds like it to me.

Does the Lord still strike people dead for touching the current day ark? Is Davis subtly implying that disobeying his teaching was simlar to touching the ark which God clearly forbade? Even if Davis did not mean this, his ham-handed treatment of this teaching could have led those present to misunderstand his intent.

Davis wanted to change the church polity to match his “clear” view of Scripture.

“At other times of the week, such as Sunday and Wednesday evenings, I taught on gender and authority. I was always clear that the issue was not about “women deacons,” but about ensuring that our polity matched Scripture, which meant deacons should not be viewed as spiritual leaders in the church.”

Church members, who disagreed with Davis, are classified as nominal, unregenerate church members.

“During this time, the ministry of the Word of God was having a powerful and divisive effect on the church. The genuine saints were being deeply challenged and were growing and flourishing, while the nominal, unregenerate church members were becoming openly hostile.”

Election of woman leads to Davis' call to repent.

"On Sunday, August 19, 2001, cards with the results from the deacon election were distributed to the congregation. As I already mentioned, I stood up and called the church to repent." (Read yesterday’s blog post).

Couple leaves church and call Davis a liar.

“Soon after this first woman’s election, she felt pressure from godly friends in the church and decided to resign. She and her husband then left the church, but not quietly or in love. At a climactic church conference, the husband, who had up to that point been my friend, essentially called me a liar in front of the whole church. He and his wife left the room and the church from that moment. “

Could it be that this couple were telling the truth? Could it be that they believed that Davis hid his true intent from the pastoral search committee in order to assume the pastorate? Could it be that they were implying that Davis pulled a classic bait and switch?

That couple may have been onto something.

“From the first time I read FBC's constitution and by-laws, I knew that the church needed to change its by-laws on deacons. So I learned how to change a by-law at FBC, followed the procedure, and wrote a new by-law saying that only men could be nominated, elected, and serve as deacons.”

Did Davis inform FBC of his objection prior to accepting his position? Surely such a doctrinally minded individual read the bylaws prior to his agreement to be pastor.
 

He discusses his intense agony and adds some information that might lead some to logically believe he knew about the bylaws and planned to change them prior to arriving at FBC.

He accuses the people in FBC of being “hate filled”. Could it be that they were very upset with the machinations of Davis and not full of hate?

“It was not a particularly difficult passage to preach on, but I was preaching to so many hate-filled faces that I found myself clutching the sides of the pulpit to keep upright." 

"I barely made it through the sermon, then went home to recuperate for the evening service. I lay down in a hammock out in the backyard and prayed. I had just found out that week that one of the opposing church members was organizing a lawsuit against me. The reason? “Breach of contract,” I had heard. The logic was that, in changing the church’s by-laws which I had known about before coming to the church, I had misrepresented myself to the church.”

Davis continues to call those, who opposed the bylaws change, wicked!

He is given Psalm 37 to read which he finds helpful. He is right and his opposition is wicked!

“Wicked people make plots and schemes against the righteous, but they will fail. In the end, the righteous will inherit the earth, and the wicked will be no more. So do not fret or be anxious; do not worry or be alarmed. Simply stand firm and watch the deliverance that God will bring about.”

He then makes what appears to be a judgment on the salvation of those who disagree with him.

He calls those who disagreed with him “unregenerate.”

I took a branch (with leaves on it) with me to work and still have it. The leaves are completely dead now, because I cut that branch almost ten years ago. It represented the end of the era of unregenerate church members dominating the life of FBC.

Unregenerate means not reborn spiritually and not repentant

Andy Davis, you are wrong to say such a horrible thing. I know the couple who left your church. They may disagree with you but they love and follow the Lord. Scripture is very clear that you should not judge the salvation of others. In fact, this may be the worst thing you could have done and you need to repent.

When the church voted to keep women from becoming deacons, he calls it “following biblical authority."

Look what he calls the final vote when he gets his way. “It was something like 170-120 in favor of following biblical authority.” So all of the 120 nays were made by those who disagree with "biblical" authority? I don't buy it.

He continues to demean, years later, decent people who disagreed with him.

“Simply put: Do you believe the faithful ministry of the Word of God is sufficient to reform a drifting church, to revive a dying church, to convict a sinning church?”

He advises people to avoid gossip but does he?

“We need to be especially careful to avoid gossip and slander against people who have wronged us or are opposing us.”

So calling people wicked, unregenerate, hate filled sinners is loving and kind? His very article is full of gossip and innuendoes and the people involved have no way to respond. Maybe they should start a blog?

Here is the crux of the matter and the church better be prepared!

Davis believes that there are no non-essentials!

I once heard a story about a well-known preacher of the Word whose expository ministry has helped shaped my own. To this day, this man is characterized by boldness and uncompromising clarity in his preaching, but he also tends to admit of no gray areas. Everything is equally true, certain, clear, essential.”

The Calvinistas are on the move and you better believe exactly as they do or you may be unregenerate and a sinner. Can you imagine if they had the governmental power of Calvin? Good night-grab the babies and head for the hills!

The Donner Party

Eagle, one of our frequent commenters, made an astute observation today. He said that post-evangelical church is beginning to behave like the Donner Party.

From Wikipedia here we learn about the Donner Party:

"The Donner Party (sometimes called the Donner–Reed Party) was a group of American pioneers who set out for California in a wagon train. Delayed by a series of mishaps, they spent the winter of 1846–47 snowbound in the Sierra Nevada. Some of the emigrants resorted to cannibalism to survive, eating those who had succumbed to starvation and sickness."

We are in real trouble. If everything is essential, just wait until the boys start imposing all sorts of essentials. And guess what? They get to identify the essentials!  Davis is friendly with Al Mohler. Mohler believes that Young Earth creationism must be stressed and considers it his priority for the coming year. Off with my head, right?

Folks, we will be eating our own and Davis is quite clear that it is justified.

What Davis wants to do

“The reformation of First Baptist Church is one of the greatest displays of God’s glory that I have ever seen in my life. My prayer is that God will use this narrative to effect similar reformation in other churches around the world for his glory.”

Are you scared yet?


TWW goes on the road

We ask our regular readers to bear with us. We will both be traveling to Oklahoma to spend some time with Wade Burleson and his family. We are thrilled to get to meet, face to face, with a pastor that we have long admired. This meeting will result in some exciting things for the coming year and we will keep you all posted as things develop.

We will continue to post on schedule and plan to post a final analysis by Wenatchee the Hatchet on Mark Driscoll on Monday. However, we may not comment much on the discussion until we return home, mid week.


Lydia's Corner: Job 1:1-3:26 1 Corinthians 14:1-17 Psalm 37:12-29 Proverbs 21:25-26

Comments

Andy Davis is Biblical; I’m Not — 163 Comments


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    I hope the winsome wenches of Wartburg have a wonderful time with Wade.


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    Seneca
    You have been reading our press!!


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    Of course Dee!


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    I think my post on the other thread should have been here. Pastor Davis was at best deceitful but well meaning (in his mind and heart) and at worse…he was deceitful! This is truly quite sad (coming from one that hold similar views about the role of women in the church but understand those views have counter arguements).


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    I don’t know the woman involved here or the details, but I do know that Andy Davis is closely connected with Scott Brown of Vision Forum fame (having spoken at some of his conferences), so his association with Brown could be influencing any errant views he has on this. In some of these self-righteous circles it is even considered sinful for a woman to teach other women the scriptures in a women’s Bible study, since they view this as only the husband’s responsibility.

    Knowing FBC of Durham’s congregation very loosely, I cannot imagine that they would ever have placed any woman in authority over the congregation prior to Davis’ arrival. Is this what happened?

    Dee and Deb, I am as ardent of a supporter for the woman’s role in Christ’s church as you are. I do believe that some churches swing to extremes on this issue. On one hand we have churches where women are in authority as pastors over entire bodies of believers and on the other hand we have churches where women are mere decorative wallpaper. Each group can take a few scriptures out of context to support their arguments and ignore the rest of what the Bible says.

    How any pastor can argue against the value of a deaconess in a church is ludicrous, considering the very word is used in the New Testament by Paul. Did Davis say he was against having “deaconesses” in the church he pastors?

    “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cenchreae, that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself as well” (Romans 16:1-2 RSV)

    “Therefore, my brethren, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm thus in the Lord, my beloved. I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.” (Philippians 4:1-3 RSV)

    It was not until Christ came to earth that the dignity of women began to be realized and this in a world which very much denigrates women as a whole.

    Acts 18:26 ESV “He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately.”

    Romans 16:1-2 ESV “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.”

    Romans 16:3 ESV “Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus.”

    Luke 8:1-3 ESV “Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s household manager, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.”

    Titus 2:3 ESV “Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good….”

    Philippians 4:3 ESV “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

    Then there are scriptures dealing with the issue of women serving in authority over the church and they cannot be ignored. When Adam and Eve sinned, they each brought particular curses down upon themselves. See Gen. 3:17-19 regarding Adam.

    Regarding Eve: Gen. 3:16 “To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.'”

    So as a result of Adam’s sin, he has to work by the sweat of his brow and as a result of Eve’s sin, she in in this position:

    1 Corinthians 14:34 ESV “The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.”

    1 Timothy 2:11-14 ESV “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”

    1 Corinthians 11:3 ESV “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

    One day things will change:

    Matthew 22:30 ESV “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”

    We are all one in Christ Jesus, fulfilling equally important but different roles until the time of the resurrection. Is this what you believe, Dee and Deb?

    Galatians 3:28 ESV “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”


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    “Then there are scriptures dealing with the issue of women serving in authority over the church and they cannot be ignored.”

    I actually don’t believe Scriptures quoted give women spiritual authority over the elders of the church.

    Others disagree of course.


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    All I know is I really want to be authentic with the scriptures and take them all into account building “precept upon precept” accurately.” Be a Berean.


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    Really Seneca? And just what is “spiritual authority”? If you mean a top down arrangement vs. a horizontal and sustainable polity based upon gifting rather than plumbing received at birth, you have your answer as to why the church (institutional) is dying, and why the great unchurched have no desire to be churched.


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    Muff, you pose an interesting question. What I find are scriptures pertaining to authority and the use thereof, not a complete abolishment of authority.

    Here are a few good questions worthy of searching the scriptures to find answers for:

    Do church leaders have limited authority, or do they have unfettered authority?

    Are church leaders merely teachers of God’s word and managers of churches, or are they God’s representation on earth?

    Does the Bible teach that churches are to have their own governments running them?


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    Ted, you’re raising points that remind me that I want to tackle that whole stupid prophet/priest/king stuff in neo-Calvinism land.


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    Bereans don’t decide that Junia can either be a woman OR an apostle but cannot be both, even though the plain reading of the text makes her a woman AND an apostle.

    Bereans don’t translate the Greek word for deacon as deacon for men but servant for women.

    Bereans don’t just dismiss the possibility that the Elect Lady in II John could be a house church pastor/elder simply because they build their foundation on traditional and poor translation of Paul’s words to Timothy over some unrelated matter.

    Bereans don’t pretend that Deborah never existed or try to insult every Hebrew male that lived in her day to make an excuse for her existence in order to support their pet doctrine that is not built “precept upon precept” but built on the traditions and misinterpretations and mistranslations of men.

    A good place to start understanding precepts it to start where Jesus tells us to start.
    Build your house on the bedrock of the words of Jesus, THEN the foundations of the apostles and prophets will be built precept upon precept.
    You are placing the foundations of the apostles on the sands of the traditions of men.


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    I will state the bottom line up front. Unless you agree with his view of gender and authority and totally support his self- proclaimed “Biblical” view, you are most likely wicked and unregenerate. And I think this sort of thinking sounds like overreaching arrogance.

    Just another variation of One-Upmanship and Putdown with a Christian coat of paint. “ME SHEEP! YOU ALL GOATS! HAW! HAW! HAW!!!”


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    Bereans look at all sides of an issue and examine the whole of the Scripture to see which things are true.

    There is well reasoned debate on whether or not Junia is a feminine noun or not. It is difficult to determine since evidence seems to support both options. But it seems that the majority of references support the feminine form – though we cannot say it is conclusive.

    In the scriptures we know that some apostles performed miracles and wrote scripture, while others were simply “sent.” It is possible that anyone involved in Christ’s ministry prior to his death and who saw him after his resurrection could be referred to as an apostle. If Junia was “sent” or involved in Christ’s ministry or saw him after his resurrection, then she was not in authority in any way.

    But to give you the benefit of the doubt, let’s assume Junia was in full authority. Would that mean that it is okay for women to be pastors and elders since Junia would have been exercising that authority over men in the church? First, even if that were the case, the office of apostle is finished and Junia’s case would only apply in the early church and not today.

    There are different uses of the Greek word “apostello” and it cannot be demonstrated conclusively into which categorical use of the term Junia should fit. Even if Junia were an apostle in the sense of having seen the risen Lord it doesn’t mean she was in authority in the church. Therefore, for someone to conclude that Junia was a woman apostle in full authority in the church cannot be maintained from the Scriptures.

    The word for “deacon” is the Greek word diaconos, which can be translated as “servant,” “minister,” or “deacon.” The use of this word in the New Testament can describe a variety of forms of service, but it does not encompass the aspects of oversight and governance that the office of Elder does.

    Deborah led ancient Israel, not the church. There is a difference.


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    At what point do we look at NT verses that discuss women’s roles and behavior in the church with a cultural lens? We certainly look at slavery verses usually located in close proximity throught that very lens. What I see is a lot of picking and choosing, e.g., they don’t head coverings, quiet in church, etc.


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    It’s not clear that all apostles had the same level of influence. Paul considered himself the least of the apostles at one point yet not inferior to them at another. The Twelve did seem to have a significant role the others didn’t have. When we consider that Jesus was reconstituting Israel around Himself appointing twelve new tribal heads for a completely reconceived concept of Israel this would make sense.

    But this would not preclude women being apostles in some other sense besides being one of the Twelve, and it wouldn’t mean that the Twelve would come to decisions without meeting with all the other apostles. Sure, there’d be an assumption that apostles “have” to be men but that would be conflating the appointment of the Twelve with every other person Jesus ever sent out. An argument that women couldn’t be apostles may have the simple problem of wrongly assuming that an apostle automatically had the same symbolic role as one of the Twelve for reconstituting the leadership of the people of God. In Deut 16-18 tribal chieftains were supposed to adjudicate difficult cases and so, by way of a rather broad proposal, perhaps the Twelve had a role of teaching but also fielding difficult cases that weren’t immediately covered or touched upon by Jesus’ teaching. If this seems abstract and pointless that might be because it is, but it’s stuff I’m mulling over in some other contexts. I’m throwing it out for consideration.


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    *sorry for the typos, let me be clear–my blame is placed my husband for talking while I was typing.


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    Eagle –

    He is causing division and what’s worse is that he seems to consider it some kind of righteous division because of how he then classifies those who disagreed with him. He brought biblical trurh and they rejected it (according to him), now he classifies the others as unregenerate. And he has now declared himself God? Because he knows who is not saved!


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    At the core of this issue is realizing how God views both service and hierarchy.

    After Christ washed his disciple’s feet in John 13 he told his disciples they should have an attitude of washing one another’s feet and follow his example.

    He said, “The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.”

    The mother of James and John wanted them to be important so she asked Christ to allow them to sit beside him in his kingdom.

    Christ’s response to her?

    “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    To carnal man a person’s importance is determined by his position and level of authority. Being a servant is thought of as inferior. But scripturally it appears that God places more value on the heart of someone with a servant’s heart.


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    WHAT DAVIS WANTS TO DO

    “THE REFORMATION OF FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH IS ONE OF THE GREATEST DISPLAYS OF GOD’S GLORY THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE. MY PRAYER IS THAT GOD WILL USE THIS NARRATIVE TO EFFECT SIMILAR REFORMATION IN OTHER CHURCHES AROUND THE WORLD FOR HIS GLORY.”

    This is the scariest statement to me. He gives glory to God. He claims reformation for the church. He prays that God will use THIS NARRATIVE (his??) to effect similar reformation around the world. He sounds like he is giving glory to God, but it sounds to me like he is glorifying himself and his good works in this effort. And (IMO) in reality he DECEIVED people into what he calls “reformation.” I’m sure this will all add to God’s Glory.


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    Ted
    You asked “We are all one in Christ Jesus, fulfilling equally important but different roles until the time of the resurrection. Is this what you believe, Dee and Deb?”

    I have some difficulties with the verses that you use to justify separate but equal. Not the words themselves, the way they are translated into actions and policy.You are taking a wooden literal reading without any possibility for cultural oddities that we present at the time of the nascent church. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that separate but equal worked in race relations? Why not? Do you think that it was perceived by African Americans that they had absolutely equal opportunities as whites?

    Do you truly feel that women are treated as equals in the church, held in as much respect as the male leadership? Do you not observe that women are left “in the dock”, watching from the sidelines without a way to voice their concerns? What about unmarried, single women? Are they truly treated in an equal fashion to your lead pastor-merely separate but equal?In other words, tell me how this plays out? How many churches really honor their women as highly as they do their elders and pastors?


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    Ted
    I can assure you that women, such as myself, want to be authentic as well.


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    Eagle/Deb
    We MUST reprint this!!!! I know someone who might like this comment….


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    Ted –

    If only the many hop and popular leaders of our day understood the scriptures you expounded on above!! Maybe they should all switch places with the nursery workers for a year and change dirty diapers and be spit-up on, or do all the janitorial duties in their church for a few years. And make that a true swap, as in the total life swap and with no one knowing who they were before – but they know who they were with their same thoughts and emotions 🙂


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    HUG
    I was most unhappy with the unregenerate statement. i know some people involved and they are the most delightful Christians one could ever hope to meet. But, according the Calvinista Davis, they are unregenerate. I never knew God needed a helper in the judgment department.


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    sotnam
    There is no cultural perspective when certain men look at women’s roles.


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    Bridget2
    I know two of the people involved. They are wonderful Christians. You would like to spend time with them. Davis apparently believes that he can make a judgment on salvific issues. he sets himself as God’s Inquisitor. And ,as you can see, I am really miffed off about it. Guess that makes me unregenerate as well.


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    Dee, my wife is also authentic which is one of the things I love about her.

    I do hold women equally accountable to men, so I’ll be glad to respond to your 10 questions once you respond to the 3 questions I asked you in post 3:48.

    Eagle, you’re on a roll! Heheh!


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    Eagle – to answer your question in another thread, yes, I do know about the Donner party.

    My “high testosterone” remark was kind of cryptic, I guess – I was referring to a comment that was somewhere a bit upthread, where Dee talked about how a lot of “pastors” today want to [paraphrase] slug it out over doctrinal issues. and my response was the high testosterone comment. (Meant kinda jokingly, alluding to Driscoll.)

    OK, that explanation kills whatever kind of humor I was attempting to convey, but… 😉


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    “I was most unhappy with the unregenerate statement. i know some people involved and they are the most delightful Christians one could ever hope to meet.”

    Dee,

    I absolutely agree! They are indeed delightful!


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    Dee-

    I guess Jesus is unregenerate too because he was plenty miffed at times. Only he was miffed at the Inquisitors and law keepers of his day who ruled with a heavy hand – OOPS – Davis wouldn’t be found in that group would he?!?


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    The final word concerning authority in the church can be found in two places in Revelation concerning the Nicolatians. Many should be very afraid. Conquerer of the people is what it means. And that is what we are seeing. I fear for these charlatans and those taken in by them.


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    Ted, You been reading Piper and Grudem, haven’t you?

    Give me ONE real source of ancient Greek or Latin that gives the name Junia as a male. It cannot be found.

    From http://godswordtowomen.org/Preato3.htm

    John Piper and Wayne Grudem state that Epiphanius (315-403) wrote an Index of Disciples, in which he writes: “Iounias, of whom Paul makes mention, became bishop of Apameia of Syria.” According to them, Epiphanuis wrote “of whom” as a masculine relative pronoun thereby indicating that he thought Iounias was a man.8 Piper and Grudem also presented the results of their computer search of ancient Greek writings looking for the name “Junia(s).” Based on their findings, they concluded that “no one should claim that Junia was a common woman’s name in the Greek speaking world, since there are only three known examples in all of ancient Greek literature.”9

    a. Discussion. Douglas Moo discusses Epiphanius and calls into question the reliability of this evidence because in the same passage, Epiphanius thought “Prisca” (Priscilla) was a man.”10 This church father also wrote and believed that “the female sex is easily seduced, weak and without much understanding. The Devil seeks to vomit out this disorder through women… We wish to apply masculine reasoning and destroy the folly of these women” (Epiphanius, Adversus Collyridianos, Migne, Patrologia Graeca, Volume 42, Column 740 f).11

    The computer search by Piper and Grudem is inconclusive regarding their statement that “Junia” was not a common name in ancient writings. Many scholars including Brooten, Lampe, Metzger, Moo, McDonnell and Osburn claim otherwise, and state that “Junia” was a common name. However, the real significance of Piper and Grudem’s search is the fact that they could not cite any example for a male named Junias. James Walters states: “Researchers have been unable to locate a single example of the male name Junias in ancient literature or inscriptions, either Latin or Greek.” 12

    b. Assessment. The observation by Moo and the misogynist statements by Epiphanius about women casts strong doubt to the appropriateness of this person providing any objective evidence in support of a male reading. His beliefs toward women may have certainly colored his thinking and writings. Therefore, we cannot conclude that this church father is an unbiased and credible witness. The computer search performed by Piper and Grudem offers no evidence for a male reading.

    Do you know how I also know you are on shakey ground concerning authorty? You make the classic mistake. You refer to it as “office” and that is not at all in the Greek. There are no “offices” in the body. Only functions. In fact, Jesus makes it clear the Body is not be to be like the Gentiles who had “offices” and positions. You want to have it both ways.

    If elders are so importat for the body then name all the elders of each church mentioned in the NT. Surely the letters would be addressed to them to carry out instruction since they are “in authority”? After all, the Corinthian church was about 9 years old by 2nd Corinthians.


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    I was most unhappy with the unregenerate statement. i know some people involved and they are the most delightful Christians one could ever hope to meet. But, according the Calvinista Davis, they are unregenerate. I never knew God needed a helper in the judgment department. — Dee

    There used to be a troll (don’t remember the name) on Internet Monk with a similar attitude. My response was usually along the lines of “What would Christ do on Judgment Day without (insert name) standing at his right hand like a secret police informant going ‘Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! etc’?”

    And my response for Calvinistas who “draw the circle of the Elect tighter and tighter” has always been “Gonna be mighty lonely in Heaven with you being the only one there.”

    Put it that way and you see just how absurd that attitude can be.


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    The final word concerning authority in the church can be found in two places in Revelation concerning the Nicolatians. — Anon

    Nicolaitans. From Revelation. Now THAT takes me back.

    To the late Seventies, when I was involved with Fundagelicals. I specifically remember one weird travelling preacher at the local Extreme Fundie Fellowship who looked like a wild-eyed anarchist from a 19th Century political cartoon and preached on “The Nicolaitans”. He started with the fact that Greek has two words for “priest” — “Ecclesiastica” and “Presbyteros” and ended up PROVING (with lotsa proof texts) that “The Nicolaitans” were REALLY the ROMAN Catholics. I still have no idea how he got from Point A to Point B, but in retrospect it sounded like a Conspiracy kook rant.


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    HUG, Nicolaitians has been sort of a tablua rasa term in the hands of people obsessed with saying groups of Christians they disapprove of have to be evil. There’s no joy in the journey when there’s a destination to get to. 🙂


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    Biblical arguments are rather pointless if not supported by scripture and no literate person reading this blog will take our words seriously if we cannot counter from God’s Word. This is why I provided several scriptures from a variety of Biblical passages to support statements I made in post 3:48.

    Dee, I am not baited by racial arguments, especially when they are not applicable. I will say that women today are treated with much greater respect and dignity in the majority of churches than black people were in the 1950s, and my wife feels the exact same way. In fact, I’d say it’s quite an insult to black people to compare their situation to that of the majority of women today.

    God views a human being’s value, not through the lens of position or status, but through the perspective of one’s heart of service. Scriptures were provided above demonstrating that fact. A person’s value is not found in what he or she does, lest any should boast. Right? Ephesians 2:9. All we have is through Christ our Lord and it is in God’s will alone that our hearts should be focused, not our own selfish goals seeking grandeur.

    Whether a person achieves social status or position behind a podium is not God’s concern. God’s concern is our humility in serving wherever He has planted us and leads us to go.

    You’ve read enough of my posts to know where I stand on these churches who abuse not only women, but children and yes, even men. I find them repulsive and heretical. They make me as sick as they do you.

    But I also find churches which skimp on proper scriptural exegesis in the other direction to be scandalous bastions of ignorance and pride. You’ll find many of those in the camps of men like social justice aficionado Tony Campolo, churches which are rarely mentioned on this blog. Those efforts span a much wider distance worldwide than the puny movements led by Vision Forum and the like.

    Still, I applaud you for exposing what you do so very well. It would simply be scintillating to see what you could accomplish by exposing more influential, yet dangerous players on the world scene.


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    Ted – I’ve never seen Dee “bait” anyone.
    And some of her best friends are “liberals,” too. 😉

  38. Pingback: Feel-the-love department | Civil Commotion


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    I have a somewhat liberal bent at this point in my life. I’ve read accusations of “liberals” being full of “ignorance” and “pride” before. What it more often than not seems to boil down to?

    “you’re ignorant and too proud to accept a simple and BIBLICAL interpretation of scripture (as I or the people whose books I read see it).”


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    Ted: “Biblical arguments are rather pointless if not supported by scripture”

    The problem with your ‘biblical’ argument is the fact that it is based on poorly translated, cherry picked verses that had little to do with each other and everything to do with social and cultural situations that Paul needed to address in the churches he wrote to.

    The problem with your ‘biblical’ argument is the fact that the conclusion of your argument works in direct opposition against the words and actions of Jesus Christ, Himself.

    But the web of ‘biblical’ ‘proof’ that you and teachers like Piper and Grudem and others has been repeated and taught and promoted that it has been accepted as undeniable truth. It has gotten so bad that a certain Bible was even specifically translated for the sake of supporting the ‘biblical’ ‘proof’ these men put forth. And this ‘proof’ has become the new gospel and so unquestionable so that real and honest examination from any other angle is rejected for no good reason, except the reason that is does not support the ‘biblical’ ‘proof’ woven together by men with agendas.

    Now I understand that you want scriptures to support my position. So hopefully, later today, when I have more time, I will produce those scriptures. And they will all be from the red letters of Jesus, our Bedrock and Chief Cornerstone that the builders at CBMW reject. Oh, I might quote Paul where he says, “follow me as I follow Christ,” and, “If any man or even an angel comes preaching a different gospel, let him be accursed.”


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    Ted

    I am sorry that I came across as race baiting. That was not my intent. Assume I am not race baiting for the sake of my argument. I was trying to get at the guts of the situation. When we say that women have separate yet equal roles, it sounds nice. But, in reality, everyone knows that one side of that separation holds the power to influence change. As I look around evangelical churches today, guess who I see in positions of influence? Who are the ones who are looked at as “the church.” It is the men. I am not saying women are treated meanly. I am saying that they only matter for keeping the children’s programs running and singing up front.(which leaves me out because I cannot carry a tune.)

    When Jesus died on the Cross, the Temple curtain was torn. This means that God now dwells among his people and we do not need a go between like a priest. Yet, the system gets set back up again so that now Christ is the head of the man and the man is head of the woman. The woman is now presented as having a go between. So what happens to single women? Do they get to have Christ as their head since they do not have a husband? Don’t laugh at the last question. Many of today’s authoritarian churches now appoint men in the church to be the head of the single women. So, do they run all their decisions through their head?

    I do not buy that the verse of women keeping silent in the church is for today. In fact, there are quite a few conservative scholars who believe that was directed at keeping order in the church in those heady days when women were first allowed to sit in a service with men. They used to hang out in the Court of Women and were not familiar with decorum in services. I taught adult Sunday school for years-men and women. I taught through all of Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology, along with church history and other things. Pete Briscoe, Jill and Stuart’s son, was my pastor for years. He was the one who first approached me to teach. When I raised the woman question, he said he believed women could teach.

    I still remember when he asked me to tell him something about history that I thought he didn’t know. So, I told him a funny story about Martin Luther. He looked at me and said I had taught him something. He then asked what he should do. Should he confess to the elders? Next time, should he clamp his hands over his ears? When I moved back to NC, his parting comment to me was “Don’t ever let anyone tell you that you can’t teach.”

    Ted, he is a conservative Christian who loves the Lord and the Scriptures. I can well assure that he is functioning on his convictions and has some great family role models who also love the Bible as well to advise him. So, when you say that we must use Scripture, I say we have and we look at it differently. Many conservative Christians fall on all sides of the spectrum on this one.

    I firmly believe that marginalizing women has occurred in today’s churches. i also believe that the church is suffering from the lack of input from godly women. Women often lead the way in abuse issues. But , the church has blocked its ears to any voice that is not male.

    You mention churches that push the social justice gospel. This cuts both ways. There are many churches who believe that they are their own mission. That is precisely what Ed Young Jr said when I attended his church. All the money had to go to building the church (and his bank account-ed. comment). Churches which are liberal in their theology are losing member hand over fist. The social gospel offers little for people when Jesus is left out of the equation. Who needs to go to church to hear about ecology or world suffering? One can merely turn on the TV or give to the Peace Corps.

    Ever since we started this blog, we have found that following stories that interest us, shared by readers or stories in the news, has served us well. In fact, it is almost as if God is guiding our effort. Last Sunday, I was concerned. I had no idea which way this week should go. I told my husband for the first time I didn’t know what to write about. I woke up in the morning, called Deb and within 5 minutes felt a conviction to go with the Andy Davis story. I believe He guided us.

    I think the liberals are taking care of the liberal churches which deny Jesus. I am far more concerned about the churches which purport to be Christ followers and, instead, cause pain and confusion to those who seek Him.

    When we started this blog, we had no idea anyone would be interested in what we have to say. Frankly, we are women who are not usually listened to in many of today’s churches.We have been startled by the success of this blog. He has guided these two frail no accounts in this process. And we continue to listen. If you have a story we should write about, let us know.


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    Excellent comment. You have a wonderful “voice”. May our churches be filled with women like you.


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    “I do not buy that the verse of women keeping silent in the church is for today. In fact, there are quite a few conservative scholars who believe that was directed at keeping order in the church in those heady days when women were first allowed to sit in a service with men. ”

    FYI: Paul is known to quote questions from the Corinthian letter in his letter (long the days before punctuation so the translators decided which ones got quotes”

    Corinthian 14 passage on women silent is almost word for word out of the Talmud/mishna. The next verse proves it is not meant for even then! Paul says What! as in…are you kidding me! The word of God came only to YOU? (Doing Paul sarcasm)

    There is no reason to read this passage culturally as Paul was quite sarcastic in his response to these Judaizers who wanted women to be silent in the Corin church. Guess Chloe, “who had people” was getting too big for her britches.


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    Re “women keeping silent in church” and “exercises of missing the point”:

    Ever heard of “Castrati”? The word means “male soprano” and how you get them, i.e. “Castrated One”. They originated in Church choirs in Italy sometime between the Renaissance and the 18th Century because “women must keep silent in church”, i.e. were forbidden to sing in choirs. However, the choirs still needed high-pitched soprano voices. Hence the manufacture of Castrati.

    Castrati had to be castrated before puberty, before their voice changed to adult male pitch. This was long before anesthesia or germ theory or antiseptics. The survivors had to be trained from castration in vocal music, with a high washout rate. Maybe one in a hundred made it into the Church choirs; I don’t know what happened to the other survivors.

    All so “Women shall keep silent in Church”…


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    Ted,

    Thanks for your input! I want to offer pushback on one issue.

    You hold up the curse from Genesis as a reason why women are under the authority of men, and point only to Christ’s second coming as the time when this hierarchy will be done away with. To be honest, I don’t understand why you believe that we have to be obedient, as it were, to the curse now that Jesus has already come. The curse was a consequence, not a prescription for good and right living. It was God saying “Aw crap, look what you did. Now look what’s going to happen!” It wasn’t God saying “This is how I want you to behave, so do this on purpose or you’re sinning.” (If it is a prescription for right living, then wouldn’t we have to believe that God was ordering women to covet their man’s position of authority? This is exactly what many complementarians tell women not to do, yet God mentions it in the curse, so does God actually want them to? See what I mean?).

    Jesus was the answer to that curse. He has freed us from the fallen nature of the world.

    Has he completely abolished that fallen nature yet? No. The fallen nature of the world will not be completely abolished until he comes again. However, that doesn’t mean that we have to purposely live under/obey the world’s fallen nature in the meantime. New creation has already started. It’s on its way! 🙂

    But if you argue the Genesis account as a reason why Christians must practice gender hierarchy, that’s essentially what you are arguing. That the fall, which Jesus came to fight against, is something Christians should live under and obey or we are displeasing God.

    I understand that you are not meaning to argue this, but I think it is where you will get if you follow your argument to its logical conclusion.

    Just a thought.

    RED


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    Dee wrote:

    “So what happens to single women? Do they get to have Christ as their head since they do not have a husband? Don’t laugh at the last question. Many of today’s authoritarian churches now appoint men in the church to be the head of the single women. So, do they run all their decisions through their head?”

    Exactly. And I would also like to know this: if God appointed the husband as the spiritual head and leader over his wife; if this is specifically taught in the bible without exception and is the way a “biblical” and “gospel” marriage is supposed to be;(some would even say the wife goes through the husband to “get” Christ)…or, at least, that the husband determines what Jesus would desire for them…knowledge of His will for them…life decisions, etc., then what happens when the Christian husband tragically dies first leaving his wife “uncovered?” My main questions is why would that ever happen? If one believes in a sovereign God, who plans all and knows all, like the CBMW would promote, why would God ever take away a wife’s spiritual covering if that (having the husband be her spiritual covering) was His very plan in the first for “biblical” marriage and necessary for her spiritual growth? Don’t laugh at my silly question. 🙂 Sure she can remarry and get another “covering” but what was wrong with the first one?

    I used to have a single friend in a church that teaches this. She had to have the following: a male authority- a deacon, I think, was assigned to her to run all (ALL) things through him; an older female to shepherd her (even though my friend was in her early 50’s) and a married couple to be her covering to teach her about marriage, I guess. She never thought any of that was odd and seemed to like having not to make decisions on her own or to simply trust that the Lord would direct her Himself. I am not saying counsel is wrong or bad…this did seem like too much, imo.


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    Okay, this is just opinion and I have not studied into this. But my current understanding is that Paul wrote admonition to women on modesty and being quiet because during that time there were some rather bawdy, gaudy dressing, loud prostitutes setting the pace for women of that time. And just as the styles and mores of our time influence women (and men) for the worse, so did the surrounding culture of Paul’s time.

    You and I are on the same page in many ways. Of course women can teach and that can be demonstrated through the scriptures I cited earlier. And of course Christ is the head of all people, male and female. This is also scriptural.

    I think where you and I and my wife differ is in how we view these differing roles God has given. We do not see any person working in a nursery, or with children, or on the sidelines as holding an inferior position. We also do not view any person standing behind a podium as having a superior position. I realize that many people get caught up in that mindset, but when you analyze many scriptures on this, it’s clear that God views the role of servant on a much higher plane than most people do. And God does not view us as human “doings” but as human beings.

    Do you see what I’m saying at all? I think the feminist movement has caused many women to believe that their worth is tied up in having so-called important positions where they are highly visible and earning good money. I know that’s how our culture thinks, but it is not how God thinks if we’re to rely on scriptures.

    Overall, our schools and universities promote faulty values by teaching people that knowledge and position are everything in life. Many graduates come out puffed up with pride and expecting to attain high positions due to their educational background, and in God’s eyes this is not where real life is at. In fact, there is a scripture saying that knowledge puffs up. So any position a person may hold in a church, be it male or female, is not the important thing in God’s sight if we’re to trust the full scope of what the scriptures teach on humility and true godliness.

    God’s paradigm is different from our culture’s paradigm. What I’m hearing you say is centered on our culture’s paradigm which I personally am striving against in my own life. I do not care if I’m top dog in a church or viewed as important to others. It is only God’s viewpoint that I want to be concerned with.

    You said, “I firmly believe that marginalizing women has occurred in today’s churches. i also believe that the church is suffering from the lack of input from godly women. Women often lead the way in abuse issues. But, the church has blocked its ears to any voice that is not male.”

    Yes, that is absolutely true. But think a moment. Is sex abuse an issue that is dealt with in the public school system? No, it is not. It is also stuffed under the rug there. And public schools are filled with women teachers. Why is it so silenced there?

    The reason sexual abuse is stuffed is because our culture is twisted on this issue. People will scream with disgust over seeing a nursing mother care for her baby, yet they’ll go home that night and watch an R-rated flick sporting nudity and think nothing of it. This applies to both men and women.

    It seems that ever since sin came into the world and Adam and Eve first realized they were naked, people have experienced difficulties with sexual issues.

    I’ve done a lot of study into sexual abuse and I’ve given this a great deal of thought. While there are certainly men who want women on a lower plane than themselves in churches, there are also many men like myself who see women as having gifts far exceeding my own. I think it’s not helpful to lump all men in all churches into one sordid camp. Men differ just as women differ.

    You said, “…the church has blocked its ears to any voice that is not male.”

    That is true in SOME churches and it is a problem. But to say that the church in general has blocked its ears to any voice that is not male when the market place is full of female authors and speakers….the evidence speaks loudly.

    Anne Graham Lotz is even speaking behind podiums nowadays and in Baptist churches no less.

    It is scientifically proven that men’s brains and women’s brains are different. As a man I will say that, while I enjoy listening to women speakers, I would rather listen to a man simply because both our brains are wired similarly on the left side. Women use both the right and the left side of their brains fluently, so my preference listening to men has nothing to do with diminishing the value of a woman’s teaching. It speaks more to what I find clarifying for my way of thinking, male-wise.

    If you believe that men and women are exactly the same in all ways then this conversation is futile. If nothing else, for all we know God may desire that men speak in the church more than women so that the men in the congregation will digest what is said more easily. We ARE using mostly one side of our brains after all! Does that insult the intelligence of men? No. It only speaks to our differences as male and female.

    I hope I’m making this clear. This is not about who is better or worse. It’s about simple differences in response.

    My wife and I attended a study taught by a highly knowledgeable woman who is well respected. My wife got more out of the study than I did only because the teacher had a gift for moving rapidly between left and right brain. To me, she seemed to ramble. As a man, I tend to process better with a more direct style. Some women have mastered a more direct style, yes, but rather than view the fact that men enjoy listening to men as an affront, why not view it as appreciating differences in different ways? In general women love emotional stories and going into details. That’s beautiful. It lends itself very well in many situations.

    I do believe that God wants women to teach, but there are reasons why, generally speaking, men relate better to men and women relate better to women. I know that female police officers are very needed in child abuse situations and it is because of the natural gifts given to them by God, gifts which men do not as readily possess.

    Anyway, the whole feminist gunk has so screwed with our culture’s thinking that few want to admit that men and women are different any more. Any difference is viewed as a slight which is ludicrous. I’m happy my wife and I are different and that we both are equally cherished in those differences.

    What you said here is important:

    “I think the liberals are taking care of the liberal churches which deny Jesus. I am far more concerned about the churches which purport to be Christ followers and, instead, cause pain and confusion to those who seek Him.”

    My concern is that both extremes are hurting Christians and distorting the Gospel. Unfortunately, liberal churches do purport to be Christ followers and they cause just as much pain and confusion to those seeking the Lord as the more tight-wad churches do.

    You said, “When we started this blog, we had no idea anyone would be interested in what we have to say. Frankly, we are women who are not usually listened to in many of today’s churches.We have been startled by the success of this blog. He has guided these two frail no accounts in this process. And we continue to listen. If you have a story we should write about, let us know.”

    Dee, the truth is that God is interested in what you have to say even if the Internet goes down. I believe He will always use a contrite spirited person, whether male or female, to impact others. He is the great door-opener and all we do is walk forward in faith. Stay focused on His listening ear and He will continue to work through you. God doesn’t need a person behind a podium to make a difference. I appreciate the work you’re doing, so keep it up.

    It’s not likely many churches will listen to anyone’s concerns about sexual or spousal abuse whether they be male or female for one reason: Business revenue and reputation. It’s sad. It’s sick. And it’s good you keep talking about it, but don’t make the mistake of thinking it’s just in the “church.” It’s in the schools and any other institution with a reputation to uphold. People are hung up when it comes to abuse issues. It makes them uncomfortable so they want to deny it exists. In some cases, they’re hiding what they themselves are involved in. So keep banging the drums and trust God’s working.


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    “If you have a story we should write about, let us know.”

    Lol… well, since you asked Dee, I was very disturbed after reading this article the other day. This statement at the end I found just incredible…am without words, really. My husband and I are not “signed members” of a church. This article made me want to remain as we are…not reverse our situation. When speaking of committed the author means a signed membership…I guess if you are not “signed up” don’t think of yourself as committed?

    “What many Christians don’t realize is, to remain aloof from a committed fellowship to a local church is to walk in spiritually dangerous territory. It’s thin ice. Such a person is unaccountable and unprotected.”

    http://www.9marks.org/blog/what-say-non-committal-church-attenders

    Maybe no one else will find it or the article troubling, but I did. I do realize that upon entering 9Marks territory I should expect to find a lot to do with “joining a church”…it’s what they do…however, I was disturbed by the sweeping statements and the “either you join or you are in spiritual danger” tone.


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    One more thing….

    These guys like Scott Brown who teach women to be under a man’s authority even when they’re not married are nuts. I see their excessive daughter-focus as teetering on emotional incest. And if they want a married man to have oversight over a single woman in the church, that’s teetering on emotional polygamy.


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    Dee,

    There is textual evidence that Paul was often quoting a letter or other communication from a church and then responding to it! That means that proof-texting is dangerous, because you may be quoting the non-inspired piece from the church, not the inspired answer. I think the whole “covering” thing is just that, as I have read other theologians remark. After all, why would head covering be important when circumcision was not!!!!!!! We need to use a bit of common sense when reading scripture and not blindly apply some little piece everywhere.

    BTW, GOD did not say women should not have authority over women in church. Paul said that, using the personal pronoun in “I permit no” Paul was a redeemed and only partially reformed Pharisee and Jew by tradition.


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    Anonymous 10:26 p.m: Thank you for your thoughtful comments and the link to the very thorough article: http://godswordtowomen.org/Preato3.htm It was very encouraging to me as I have been rethinking where I stand on these issues. Many of the ideas you put forth are also found in two excellent books I read recently: “I Suffer Not a Woman” by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger and “How I Changed My Mind About Women in Leadership: Compelling Stories from Prominent Evangelicals” ed. by Alan F. Johnson. Also “The Women’s Study Bible” edited by Catherine Clark Kroeger and Mary J. Evans at Oxford University Press was excellent (not to be confused with the currently popular complimentary view “The Women’s Study Bible” being sold in Christian Book Stores.
    Dee: The second book contains a chapter by the Briscoes.
    I have sensed for a while that something was wrong with the traditional view of marriage. The “How I Changed My Mind…” book has confirmed some things I have been feeling in my spirit for a long time. The article in Anonymous’ link was the icing on the cake. It summarizes beautifully things that I learned from the two books and also has the addition of real statistics from egalitarian versus traditional marriages in the area of divorce, marital satisfaction and abuse. Thank you again for posting it!


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    RE: Headless Unicorn Guy on Thu, Dec 08 2011 at 10:57 pm:

    “…The Nicolaitans” were REALLY the ROMAN Catholics…”

    If you’re a true Bible believing Christian, you know for sure that Catholics are going to hell if they don’t repent of their licentious worship of the Babylon Whore and continue to take part in her fornications. And if Billy Graham doesn’t repent of his ecumenical heresies regarding Catholics, he’s goin’ to hell too!

    Y’all have a nice day … ===> (smiley face goes here)


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    Muff, was there an inverted dimple associated with your 1:52 pm post?


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    My simple but politically incorrect belief:

    In this world; testosterone will rule. (biology is destiny)

    If you have a problem with the rule of testosterone; your problem isn’t with men, it is with God who created men, women and testosterone.

    It does not appear that testosterone rules in the final existence.


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    Seneca, testosterone rules in a fallen world.
    So does that mean that the church should follow the example of the world?


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    Ted, The irony is that you are making a cultural arguement. And that is exactly what comps do when it comes to egalitarianism or mutualism (which is what scripture is teaching).

    Comps claim that egals make cultural arguements instead of scriptural ones.

    Now, anyone who tries to say that men and women are not biologically different are nuts. but what on earth does that have to do spirituality? Is your wife a pink Christian? You a blue Christian. Do sex organs come into play when it comes to salvation or sanctification? When it comes to being Christlike? If yes, then how can she ever hope to be Christlike since she is female?

    Yes, let’s do an exegesis and start with the horrible translation of Gen 3:16.


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    “My wife got more out of the study than I did only because the teacher had a gift for moving rapidly between left and right brain. To me, she seemed to ramble.”
    Personally, the longer I go on being a man, the more I seem to ramble as well. And my wife assures me that I have trouble listening to women. I also find it near-impossible to do 2 things at the same time, so back to changing diapers and trying to help grandbabies share their toys.


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    Sure was Arce. Anybody who knows Muff and his liberal-apostate-heretic leanings will quickly figure out that it’s just another one of his lame attempts at comic relief & satirical caricature.


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    Testosterone appears to have been present before the fall.


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    Testosterone = men thinking with two little below the waist orbs instead of their brain.


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    But male aggression and dominance wasn’t.


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    “Testosterone appears to have been present before the fall”

    Care to source that? Or explain what you mean? Are you suggesting Eve needed tampax before the fall, too?


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    Not sure you can make the case that Adam wasn’t dominant. He did have the testosterone.


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    I hear that a similar “Raleigh edition” of this article (Davis’s) will be hitting the presses.


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    Not sure you can make the case that testosterone=dominance in it’s pure, unfallen form.

    Blaming testosterone for sin is making testosterone guilty of sin rather than the men who use testosterone as an excuse to be sinful.

    Dominance over another is sin, that is, if you listen to the words of Jesus. He very specifically told the disciples not to lord over one another like the gentiles. He told them not to follow the worldly structures around them. Jesus told his disciples specifically to work against their nature to dominate others.

    If Jesus specifically told them to not dominate and you blame testosterone and say that testosterone is at fault or the causing factor of sin, then one can only conclude that post-fall testosterone is different from pre-fall testosterone.

    And it follows that if post-fall testosterone causes a man to sin, then he should pluck it out and cast it from him.
    It is better to enter heaven as a eunuch than to go to hell as a manly man who wants to protect and defend his testosterone and excuse the sins the testosterone causes.


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    (note: I don’t blame testosterone. I think doing so is a sorry excuse for hierarchy teaching in the church.)


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    Mara @ 4:16 –

    You’re right – no sin, aggression, male dominance before the fall even though testosterone was 🙂 So, as Christians, should be be living as under the curse still? I would say not.


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    Ted –

    I don’t think you’re a bad guy. I rather like you. I also think that when you read what I have to say, you will feel that I am not “hearing” you. I think that would be a good experience for youl.

    I hear you say that you don’t “hear” women. So it seems that it is important for you to “hear” men. I know that all caps is annoying, but honestly, WE HAVE BEEN HEARING THE MEN SPEAK A WHOLE LOT FOR THE LAST 20 CENTURIES.

    I understand that you think that everyone is important. That the women who work in children’s are just as important as the men who speak from the front, and I really do appreciate you saying that. I will tell you, however, that I have worked in children’s ministry for 20 years, and this is not true. It’s just not. I know that there are people who see it and believe it, but in practice the man pastor in the front of the room is much more important than the lady kindergarten teacher. Sorry. I am older than my pastor and have many more years experience in ministry and nobody is going to listen to me. That’s just the way it is. I’ll hear a lot of nice words, but my opinion means nothing next to his. MEN RUN THE SHOW AND THEY CAN’T HEAR ME. Just like you can’t “hear” women. And they are pretty much relieved to read in the Bible that they aren’t supposed to hear me.

    You’re a nice guy and say nice things about women. I don’t think that you hate women. I don’t think that you think that you are better than women. I do think that you need to learn to “hear” a woman speak. It would be good for you.


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    Thanks Bridget2.

    Arce 3:21, I was so busy making my point about testosterone that I missed your point about it. I like it.

    One of the things that irks me about the manly men teaching is the worship and love of testosterone. It’s a hormone, for pete’s sake. It serves a purpose. When properly used and managed, it’s a good thing. But loving/worshiping it to the point of deciding that whatever testosterone inspires in a man has to be good, because God made it. And deciding that God loves testosterone as much as the cult of the manly men is just ridiculous.

    I have far more respect for too many men to believe that they can’t think with anything else but their testosterone. Most of the men in my life use their brains rather than hormone.

    To those men ruled by their testosterone, all I can say is, testosterone is a good servant, but a very poor master. In order to live a Christian life, you must master it rather than make excuses for it and let it master you.


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    Women have testosterone, too. Eve came out of Adam. They were “ADAM” which means human and both created in His likeness. God talked to the “HUMAN” in Gen 1 and gave the HUMAN dominion over the earth. I find it really strange that so many ignore Gen 1.


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    Anonymous
    Meaning in a church that i am familiar with?


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    Ted
    I am getting ready to hit the road. I will try to answer at some point in the next couple of days. I like you and we do have quote a few things in comment except for a bit of a difference in the role of women in certain roles.


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    Mara –

    Women have hormones as well. Should women use their hormones for excuse of sin? God created the hormones that run many functions in my body. Can I be a crabby b***h for half the month and lay in bed and say oh well . . . . God made me this way . . . it must be ok . . . let the hormones rule! (LOL)

    BTW – I’m all for letting hormones rule if it’s really legit. If the guys get to let them master them, then I can let them master me too – right?!?! You think the men will like us all the same if we let our hormones rule?

    Sorry all – really couldn’t resist this one!


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    Have a safe and enjoyable trip, Deb and Dee!


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    AlaskAnna
    Could you please send the email that you spoke of again? I am having trouble finding it.


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    The whole “manly men” concept as it’s being advanced now sounds a lot more like Lionel Tiger than Jesus…


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    “And it follows that if post-fall testosterone causes a man to sin, then he should pluck it out and cast it from him.”

    I used to hang out with female social workers . They all yearned for the de-testeronization of the male. They all thought the world would be a better place if men had less testosterone. I always found their assessment interesting.
    “De-testosteronization.” Quite a word.


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    Bridget, I think they win both ways. They can blame testosterone for their need for power and preeminance and at the same time blame women’s hormones on their “emotions” and being easily deceived.

    Sounds like excuses for lots of sin to me for both men and women. If a born again woman is easily deceived or allowing her emotions to rule her then the cross was for naught. Same for men and their testosterone. Just a cultural excuse for sin.


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    Let me guess: they dealt with domestic violence, child abuse (non-sexual) and sexual abuse on a regular basis.

    Social workers see a LOT of bad things.


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    I work with Case Workers in a Foster Care agency and none of them have ever brought up de-testosteronizing any male. They all have husbands or fathers or boyfriends or grown sons that help them keep things in perspective.
    Men with testosterone do not an abuser make. Only the ones that worship their testosterone and view women/children as objects to be sacrificed on the alter of their testosterone.

    Now, some of our very fertile moms that produce kids they can’t take care of and/or give birth to babies addicted to drugs… Sometimes it is hinted that their tubes should be tied. But even that is not taken at all seriously, only said in frustration then forgotten as they get busy figuring out where to place another infant.


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    As an attorney, I get referrals from the family abuse center and from other clients. This week, we rescued two girls about 9-10 and 11-12 from a condemned house that was raided because the father was dealing meth and LSD and had it and a gun in the house with these two and with the stepmother’s children. Now we have a hearing set for next week and can’t locate the father who bonded out of jail and is hiding out for some reason.

    I have dealt with a case where girls 1 yr old, 4 year old, and 7 year old were all raped by a 12 year old or made to do oral sex on him, while the dad of one and mother of the other three were in the bedroom for several hours. Guess who the judge gave custody of the kids to, the parents that were in the house when the rapes occurred!


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    Arce –

    Did the judge give a reason for this ruling? Are parenta not responsible for their minor children?


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    Anon @7:25 –

    I’m in total agreement! Just having fun with the hormone worship.


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    Arce
    I almost cannot bear to think of the children surviving in that situation. I am praying for them.


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    Arce –

    I wasn’t clear above. Aren’t the parents responsible for caring for all of these children, including the 12 year old who was left to ravage the others? I don’t understand returning any of them to the parents.


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    Eagle – you know, the Qur’an instructs both men and women to be modest in their dress. If you take a quick look at traditional mens’ clothing from West and North Africa, the Middle East and much of Central and South Asia, you can see that this is true.

    Burqas come largely from Pashtun tribal tradition in Afghanistan. There are cities in Afghanistan that used to be pretty cosmopolitan, prior to the Russian invasion and the warfare after they left + rise of Taliban and then the US invasion.


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    (the irony: we funded many of the factions that later coalesced and became the Taliban; also, of course, O. Bin Laden’s crew….)


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    The bigger irony is that the neo-conservatives who sell Islamic terrorism as a threat to the United States’ national security were okay with militarizing Islamic groups as anti-Soviet forces. If we hadn’t been selling arms and playing various factions against each other there’d be a lot less of an incentive amongst Muslims to see the United States as an enemy. It’s tantamount to medieval Christians barring Jews from trade guilds and then getting angry that Jews went on to become bankers because lending at interest was permissable when Gentiles were involved. Thus Jews were seen as greedy money-grubbing thugs despite being stuck resorting to banking because of Christians being anti-Semitic. Back when the Cold War was something people could see as only ending in nuclear war or an armed conflict the idea that the enemy of my enemy was not going to stay my friend was not on the radar.


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    WTH – yes, that’s what I was alluding to above…


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    Bridget,

    All of the children, including the perpetrator, have another parent who was not in the bedroom the evening of the events in question. The boy was sent to a youth facility to receive treatment and punishment for his acts. He is now with his father (who was not there that evening!). Two of the girls are with their mother who was there, and one of the girls is with her father, who was also there; she is not receiving counseling and now curses a blue streak, treats older people rudely at best, and can describe the sex act at six years of age.


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    I figured as much but I wanted to make the point less allusive. 🙂


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    Arce –

    That is sad and I will pray. Any idea about WHY the judge ruled as he/she did?


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    Ted,

    In your first comment above, you mention the curses in Genesis.

    You seem to say that women need to just accept their lot in life where “and he will rule over you” is concerned, and not seek solutions to make things easier from a comfort level and a practical level, as well as not seek to rectify the inherent inequity. Not even where dignity is concerned.

    Is it only women who need to do this? What about men and the curses that apparently apply to them? Are they also to embrace the fact of their curse and not seek to mitigate it?

    You quoted the women’s curses verbatim (for the sake clarity). I’ll go the distance & quote the men’s curse verbatim (for the sake of clarity):

    “Cursed is the ground for your sake;
    In toil you shall eat of it
    All the days of your life.
    18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
    And you shall eat the herb of the field.
    19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
    Till you return to the ground”

    So, it seems to say that there will be an inequity between effort and energy put towards subsistence and the return on such investment. Men will work their butts off in struggle, and the productivity yielded will be disproportionate to the effort and energy put in. Success will be elusive (due to a variety of things messing up the ideal conditions for seedtime and harvest).

    You seem like someone trying to be fair and reasonable. If you feel women are to accept their lot in life and not seek relief and a more equitable way, then I assume you would also find it fair to apply that same principle to men as well.

    Therefore, these must be the conclusions:

    •Men (& you, Ted) are to accept the inequity between their strenuous efforts and resulting poor yield. They are not to seek to find ways to improve things to make their efforts smarter, more efficient, more productive, so as to reduce the harvest of thistles and thorns (let alone a meager harvest — certainly not a plentiful one). Men are to accept this poor state of affairs in the pursuit of subsistence, despite what it means for their family if they have one. Their family will naturally not have enough to eat, and they certainly will have a husband and father who is too worn out from all the struggle and toil and disappointment to have much left for relationship with them. But the men are to accept this, and not seek to rectify things. No matter the ramifications for their loved ones.

    Furthermore,

    •Ted, if your wife has been pregnant or may someday be pregnant, she is to accept her increased pain when it comes time to deliver her baby. She must not seek a better way. She must not have an epidural or any other kind of treatment or method to ease her pain. That would be inappropriate (wrong?). She must accept her pain, and not complain.

    The ridiculousness of this line of thinking is quite obvious to me — anyone else? I could even argue that Adam & Eve’s future generations (the Messiah? the human race?) would not have survived without doing their darnedest to find every way possible to rectify that “thorns and thistles it shall bring forth” bit.

    But, Ted, you seem to argue that it is inappropriate / wrong / sin (?) to do any such thing.

    Or perhaps you think that it is entirely appropriate for men to seek to rectify their curse (I don’t know). If so, you have made it clear, though, that the rules are different for women.


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    Dee, I am not baited by racial arguments, especially when they are not applicable. I will say that women today are treated with much greater respect and dignity in the majority of churches than black people were in the 1950s, and my wife feels the exact same way. In fact, I’d say it’s quite an insult to black people to compare their situation to that of the majority of women today.

    Hi, Ted.

    You are polite and seem to be kind-hearted. But you don’t seem to realize how antagonizing your comments are. Or, perhaps your perspective is: since humility and servanthood and “the last shall be first” thing are thought of as being so very godly and desirable that women should be eagerly ready to embrace what I have to say as opportunities for self-denial for the sake of godliness.

    RE: “Dee, I am not baited by racial arguments, especially when they are not applicable. I will say that women today are treated with much greater respect and dignity in the majority of churches than black people were in the 1950s, and my wife feels the exact same way. In fact, I’d say it’s quite an insult to black people to compare their situation to that of the majority of women today.

    Yes, an insult. But, when you say “that women today are treated with much greater respect and dignity in the majority of churches than black people were in the 1950s”, it’s almost as if you’re saying, “Look at all the bones we’ve thrown the women. They should be grateful and stop whining. They can drink out of any drinking fountain, sit in any pew. There are dozens of freedoms they enjoy, dozens of things we men allow them to do.”

    That is what comes across, and it is very insulting as well.

    RE: “All we have is through Christ our Lord and it is in God’s will alone that our hearts should be focused, not our own selfish goals seeking grandeur.

    Whether a person achieves social status or position behind a podium is not God’s concern. God’s concern is our humility in serving wherever He has planted us and leads us to go.”

    I can’t disagree with that. But what you’re implying is that any women who has a desire to speak, teach, lead, direct is in error for having that desire. It is, in actuality, nothing more than a desire for power. Especially since it could never be where “He has planted [them] and is leading [them] to go.” If you feel I’m putting words in your mouth, I am simply trying to understand your perspective for the sake of dialogue.

    Why aren’t people like Jon Piper, Al Mohler, Wayne Grudem, etc. considered to be pursuing his own selfish goals seeking grandeur? Where such motives are concerned, I would assume you are ready to give them the benefit of the doubt as they pursue things that are by nature influential & in the limelight. Why are “women” as a whole denied that kindness?

    Women, just like men, can have abilities, talents, and developed skills that are only useful in the public arena. At the podium. With a mike. At the helm. Such women are merely desiring the opportunity to make themselves useful in accordance with their abilities – and to maximize their usefulness — they are more useful in that capacity than in any other. Sure, they can wash dishes, cook, set tables, change diapers, and tell bible stories to kids and do quite well. Perhaps Jon Piper would do just as well in these things. But their impact will be exponentially greater at said podium or said helm, where their strongest abilities are allowed free and full expression. Just as with Jon Piper.


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    Ted,

    Me again. You see, your comments have been a bit provocative (whether or not you intended that).

    RE: “Overall, our schools and universities promote faulty values by teaching people that knowledge and position are everything in life. Many graduates come out puffed up with pride and expecting to attain high positions due to their educational background, and in God’s eyes this is not where real life is at. In fact, there is a scripture saying that knowledge puffs up…”

    –You make it sound like expertise and excellence in the pursuit of knowledge, and feeling good about one’s accomplishments, is shameful. I don’t get it.

    It’s the pursuit of excellence in knowledge that has brought about a whole host of things (penicillin for one) that makes even your life, Ted, healthier, easier, and better. I know nothing about you, but I think I can say that were it not for people who pursued knowledge and excellence and made it a priority, your life (& my life) wouldn’t be nearly as good as it is.

    Sounds like you’re saying one cannot aim high in achievement and at the same time be engaging in “real life” according to God. (And they certainly shouldn’t feel good about their accomplishments, should they.)

    Let’s cheer the oollege graduates on who have gained true expertise and knowledge and tell them to go for the stars and be all they can be (even women!), and bring that kingdom of God with them into the environments of those high positions they are qualified for through their educations background.


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    elastigirl…

    You go girl!


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    Mara – Seconded!!!

    elastigirl, you’re very eloquent. 🙂


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    “Women, just like men, can have abilities, talents, and developed skills that are only useful in the public arena. At the podium. With a mike. At the helm. Such women are merely desiring the opportunity to make themselves useful in accordance with their abilities – and to maximize their usefulnes”

    Dorothy Sayers writes eloquently about this in her collected essays called: Are Women Human?


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    I love this quote from “Are Women Human”:

    ‘I am occasionally desired by … the editors of magazines to say something about the writing of detective fiction “from the woman’s point of view.” To such demands, one can only say, “Go away and don’t be silly. You might as well ask what is the female angle on an equilateral triangle.”’ (p. 41)


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    WTH: re. “less allusive,” why not? 🙂 Go for it!

    Regarding testosterone… Jesus had it in his body, too. But he is the opposite of the “alpha male” type that seems to be exalted in so many “Christian” circles today. (Quotes around “Christian” in this comment = I believe that a number of those churches are actually cults, cf. Mars Hill in Seattle.)


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    The entire story of the Bible is thusly:

    1. Creation and edenic existence, f/b rebellion
    2. The Fall to the ministry of Jesus — a record of God attempting to redeem a people who continually rebel and wander off, living in the consequence of the Fall. Anticipation of redemption.
    3. The ministry of Jesus, especially The Resurrection and ascension: Redemption becomes available but the world is not redeemed only those who believe. The curse is broken and the era of the church begins until
    4. The end of time: The new (redeemed) earth — an edenic existence restored, but w/o sin.

    The curse of the Fall does not apply to those who are redeemed by faith in Jesus. Therefore, Christians should not place themselves back under the curse in their thinking and understanding of human relationships. Paul was right when he said “In Christ, there is neither . . ..” If you insist on all kinds of gender distinctions in your church and its staffing, you are choosing to be OUTSIDE of, and not IN, Christ!!!!


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    The education bandwagon (elastigirl) is about as hyped and over-hyped as anything can get these days. Will the end goal be a batchelor’s in BA required to sling tortillas at Taco Belle?

    There is no future for the U.S. without a thriving and vibrant manufacturing sector and he skilled technical trades to run it.


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    Should be “the” skilled trades in the above comment.


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    Muff, you’ve gotten at one of the reasons I think the neo-Reformed screeds about gender are so useless. I’ve actually seen complementarian women say that if single guys are just “humble” and go get any job, like at a McDonalds, God will honor their humility and they will be able to get a job if they have no job. Of course no complementarian woman would want to marry a guy working at a fast food joint because marriage is still more about social class and upward mobility and status than a lot of those complementarian would-be-Vision-Foruming-homeschooling-baby-making-machines want to admit. 🙂

    If over the last three decades a bunch of American firms have outsourced manufacturing to save money then the problem is not as simple as that illegal immigrants or foreigners are “stealing” our jobs, it’s that corporate convenience has outsourced jobs for lower expenses on the one hand and that a lot of illegal immigrants are doing jobs “real” Americans would never do anymore anyway.


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    Convinced that deacons or elders were not originally offices in the first place. Locality determined much of the issues not some convention. Locality determined welfare of the church as well.


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    WTH – for many people right now, a steady gig at a place like McDonald’s would be a godsend. But there’s a problem: it’s not a living wage for one person, let alone two. (Said by a woman who spent many years in book retail, where I barely earned enough to scrape by, though used more of my education than in all of the “better” jobs I’ve had – combined at that.)


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    Casey, Acts is still Acts. There’s no doubt the earliest deacons were appointed by an ad hoc committee to address a specific problem and may not have been conceived as having any permanent role. The fantasies of restorationist movements that wipe out all the “institutional” things sounds cute as an ideology for “real” Christian fellowship but the existence of real deacons to help me keep a roof over my head and network job leads is something I appreciate even if other folks at TWW would like to imagine that the apostles didn’t appoint any deacons in Acts. 🙂

    numo, I hear you! I’ve been unemployed for more than two years and haven’t even managed to land a job flipping burgers. It can be a problem when you develop a whole set of skills in non-profit fundraising and data management that aren’t great sells to employers in either fhe non-profit or for-profit realms.


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    Wenatchee

    I lost a job and could not land one due to blackballing by my former employer (I would not lie for the President who had overruled me on a safety matter and someone had died as a result). So I created a business consulting with small businesses on environmental and safety matters, later added some large ones, created a newsletter (kept it inexpensive) and found some funding to create a seminar to teach for the extension service. (Newsletter and seminars aka prospective client paid marketing!) Now we have the internet to help with that.

    Get my contact info from the Glam Bloggers at TWW and send me info on your background in non-profit fundraising and data management. Perhaps I can point you to some ways to market yourself as a business rather than as an employee. BTW, I am interviewing to lead a non-profit and have led one in the past.


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    “Convinced that deacons or elders were not originally offices in the first place. Locality determined much of the issues not some convention. Locality determined welfare of the church as well”

    Casey, Excellent point. We do not see the same structural prescription for every Epistle when it comes to deacons or elders. Also, I did a study on the Greek word for “appointed” and it can also mean “handstretching” as in voting. Let’s face it, in most cases, we are going to eventually know who is the spiritually mature in the Body of Christ and we will gravitate to that person. It could be a little old lady or the janitor. But when we think of it as an appointed “office” it is usually some mover or shaker within the church. That is why “office” is not in the Greek. It is a function and the qualifications are spiritually mature, humble servant,etc. It is not glamorous or career building in its true form.


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    “…marriage is still more about social class and upward mobility and status than a lot of those complementarian would-be-Vision-Foruming-homeschooling-baby-making-machines want to admit.”

    WTH, de we detect some hostility, anger, resentment, and bitterness there?
    Please, please do not destroy your reputation as a voice of reason on WW by making such blanket put-downs, as your former pastor has been criticized, and rightly so, for doing. In fact, your statement sounds like it was actually quoted from one of his misogyny-laden sermons.


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    What WTH said shocked me a bit, too.

    But you know, I don’t think it was so much misogynic as it was a testament against what misogynic teachings force women into becoming.

    When all your doctrine allows you to do is get married, stay home, and make babies, what way to do you have to move up except by marriage. You certainly can’t do anything about it youself.


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    “When all your doctrine allows you to do is get married, stay home, and make babies, what way to do you have to move up except by marriage.”

    And what about women who have been sold the bill of goods that a career is everything and wake up at 45 years of age and say with regret, “I wish someone would have told me it was okay stay home and raise a family? I missed out.”

    Staying home and having children is an honor and a great priviledge. We demean women who have made that choice by such blanket statements, which are in fact, misogynistic because they are demeaning to women who have chosen to be mothers and stay home to raise their children, despite the scorn of their radical feminist peers and men who are lazy and mooch off of the efforts of their hard-working wives.


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    “Staying home and having children is an honor and a great priviledge. We demean women who have made that choice by such blanket statements, which are in fact, misogynistic because they are demeaning to women who have chosen to be mothers and stay home to raise their children, despite the scorn of their radical feminist peers and men who are lazy and mooch off of the efforts of their hard-working wives.”

    Ted, Staying home to “raise” children is a fairly recent event starting in about Victorian times with the rise of the middle class. Women have always worked going back to the distaff and making things to sell. You need to do some research on this. You have it backwards. Throughout history only rich women did not work at something to help the family survive. Women haev been strapping babies to their backs and working to help the family survive for thousands of years. Very few women have had the means to devote their time to children and basic homemaking. You have bought into a cultural Ozzie/Harriet lie. Most marriages have historically been a finanical partnership even when women were considered legal chattel. You can check out the Proverbs women, too. She was a real estate agent and ran businesses. :o)

    And real men like intelligent savvy wives. :o) I hve found that patriarchal men are intimidated by such women.


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    WTH, de we detect some hostility, anger, resentment, and bitterness there?
    “Please, please do not destroy your reputation as a voice of reason on WW by making such blanket put-downs, as your former pastor has been criticized, and rightly so, for doing. In fact, your statement sounds like it was actually quoted from one of his misogyny-laden sermons.”

    WTH is right. The patriarchy crowd does not view marriage as a partnership at all. For you to accuse him of bitterness is the tired old patriarchal arguement. It is a straw man. The patriarchy men need to feel important and their women do not want responsibility and actually think the husband is responsible before God for their spirituality. They are lazy spiritually. And rarely mature spiritually past their husbands. They think it is sinful to do so.

    What WTH should do is become a shock jock preacher and teach lots of rules and roles for the genders. Then he can charge 5,000 a pop for speaking gigs and people will pay to come and hear how to live instead of listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit. They can go home and put all the rules and roles into play and feel real pious and then go on blogs and shame others who are not as self righteous as they are.


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    RE: Wenatchee The Hatchet on Sat, Dec 10 2011 at 10:25 pm:

    The irony is even richer here that when free market fundamentalists and many Christian conservatives trot out Smith & Ricardo as icons of laissez faire-mercantilism, they never mention what their two icons were dead set against.

    Smith had nothing good to say about the British mercantile system which is the forerunner of our current American system of corporate plutocracy. He took pages & pen pains to make it clear that his “invisible hand” of capital and modest growth only worked well at a local and sustainable level.

    Ricardo made three things clear: 1) capital must not be allowed to chase cheap labor over seas 2) trade imbalance cannot be tolerated 3) there must be full employment among trading partners


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    Ted,

    I am in total agreement that vocation as a mother is probably the highest good that any society’s women can strive to attain. Maternal nurturing and teaching are like the steel re-bar in concrete structures. They ensure a sustainable and civilized culture.

    The only thing I take issue with is that the model must apply to all women regardless of gifting & individual nature. Which is what some faith based ministries teach, no exceptions.


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    There is much middle ground. I ran a home-based business and had access to grandparents of my children for some of their care, and a Christian daycare/preshcool. My spouse taught school (public) in part as a mission activity. I focused much of my travel on the summer when she would be available for the child care. My children were advantaged by the daycare/preschool situation, which was in a Nazarene church, getting exposure to other children, which could not happen in our neighborhood. When both parents are available for significant face time with children and there is Christian care available, a woman can have a career and marriage and a family as well. As it was, without her income, I would never have been able to start and grow my own business, which in four years, allowed her to stop teaching until the children were in high school.


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    Ummm…what about vocation as a father? What about paternal nurturing and teaching? What is that? Not…..an honor and great privilege? Not the highest good any society’s man can strive to attain?


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    Ted,

    Having children is an honor and a great privilege, whether anyone (man or woman) can stay home with them or not. And I’ve faced some nasty condemnation from folks at my church, who don’t want to pay my junior-staff member husband a living wage, but still judge me for having a child in daycare. I’d never demean anyone with the will and the means to devote themselves to full-time homemaking.

    As for Wenatchee’s statement, “…marriage is still more about social class and upward mobility and status than a lot of those complementarian would-be-Vision-Foruming-homeschooling-baby-making-machines want to admit.” my freshman sociology prof would agree. If you’re a young girl who’s been raised to believe your only calling is to get married and have children, you’re not going to date any guy who doesn’t have or isn’t pursuing a decent career. Such a girl’s social status is determined entirely by her husband’s position.


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    One parents input is no more or less important than the others. What seems to be the issue in many of today’s churches is that parents don’t feel free to pray and decide what is best for their family without some form of condemnation from others that have a different opinion. People are not free to decide. It does not say anywhere in scripture that a mom is supposed to look just like this, or a dad is supposed to look like that. And even when you hear that you are free to decide from the pulpit, you often get a much different response from people you interact with. As a young parent I was somewhat dismissed by some other women who were home with their children when I was not. This was a decision that my husband and I made together. It was not my hearts desire to work when I had children, but was necessary. I didn’t usually feel supported by other women in the church. They often planned special events and parties for their kids during the day when I was at work. No one ever asked about our situation or why I was working. I mostly just felt judged with no one really asking about our choices or offering to pray for us. Pretty ironic since I actually didn’t want to work with small children. I was eventually able to stay home part time and then full time. I am thankful for the ability to be home for the past 15 years. Now its time to for another change :). I try to be supportive of couple’s choices regarding these decisions, while still sharing the joy of being home with your children and the importance of parents having a responsibility (from God) to raise their children.


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    TedS, Mara, I’ve had my sister approached by women who thought it was a miracle that she got pregnant because she and my brother-in-law simply waited a few years after being married before they had their first child. My sister and brother-in-law didn’t even want kids when they first got married and in neo-Reformed land that meant they would have been told they shouldn’t even be getting married with an attitude like that. Now, with baby five on the way, they’ve certainly changed their minds about kids and I love my nieces and nephews. We watch Powerpuff Girls, Mr. Bean, Batman, and Kipper together.

    So my beef isn’t with marriage or kids, it’s with the stratification and status-mongering I’ve seen happen where single people are considered (and consider themselves) to be less fully adult or fully human because they haven’t paired off yet. I’ve seen women lament that they can only wait until they are pursued while I’ve heard guys lament that they pursue and keep getting rebuffed by women who go for more macho, aggressive, assertive types who live up to some stereotype of the F-150 driving dude. Sociologists have done a bit of digging in the last century and have noted that while there’s the romantic narrative of “it just happened” with falling in love a lot of people don’t “happen” to just “fall in love” without coming across someone from a similar social and economic strata.

    And that’s not a bad thing because one of the biggest indicators of future domestic violence can be with the guy who “marries up” to a woman who is smarter than he is or has more potential earning power than he does. Seeking social and economic equality in a marriage is something that was considered desirable even in patriachal settings.

    Meanwhile, when I read Christian single women say they can’t do anything but wait to be pursued so they can fulfill God’s design for them of marriage I wonder what it is they feel they can’t do. It’s not like Ruth was even remotely subtle about seeking what would be her rights and interests within that time and place. Lobbying for a kinsmen redeemer to marry her was a legal right she had every reason to invoke.

    When this topic of singleness and marriage gets to be a sore spot for me is when certain relatives suggest I’m not assertive enough in pursuing women, forgetting that a guy who has been unemployed for two years has a couple of higher priorities than dating. Or when single guys with jobs lament to me their single status while they know I don’t even have a job. Or it gets to be a sore spot when single guys who wish they were married already tell me about how they went on a date and there was no “chemistry” on the second date like there was the third. That’s when I’m tempted to steer them to the website You Are Not So Smart and have them read the article about misattribution of arousal. For single women, enjoy being single. Do stuff. Don’t spend your days waiting for Mr. Right to seek you. Don’t settle for a moron because intellectual and earning potential disparities are at the top of the heap of indicators of future domestic violence. If you’re smarter than him (whoever he is) and have more earning potential than he does, don’t convince yourself it’ll work out. Odds are pretty good that if a huge fight comes up and he isn’t your intellectual or earning equal he’ll be tempted to even the odds through sheer physical force. This is one a reasons why guys who “marry up” in neo-Calvinist circles sometimes worry me. Even in patriarchal societies it was understood that you wanted the man and woman to be as evenly matched in a marriage as possible because it made the marriage more stable. Giving the woman full veto power before the marriage is no consolation for the man always having the veto ever afterward, is it? I think that if a couple of professed complementarians were actually honest about their marriages they would have to concede they have egalitarian marriages while advocating for complementarian ecclesiology.


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    I meant to say there are single guys who have told me there was no “chemistry” on date #2 compared to date #1. Slipped my mind in the earlier post.


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    Hello From Enid, Oklahoma
    I am sorry that we have had little time to comment. We are having such a rich time attending Wade Burleson’s church, both for services and a pageant. We only wish there were more pastors of his caliber in the world. You should see how the people of Enid greet him when he is out and about. This includes teenagers! His wife is wonderful, very bright, beautiful and loving. We are blessed to be here with them and are now hard at work on our project.

    There has been quite a discussion on going. As many of you know, both of us have stayed home with our kids. Dee has also taught theology and church history in two churches while Deb has led prayer groups and Bible studies. We have friends, however, who have worked out different arrangements with great success. For example, a husband and wife dentist pair who split the practice so one or the other was home with the kids.

    We think each family can work out the details in different ways. One size does not fit all. Of course, being a parent is the highest calling, for both mother and father. Also, many families have monetary issues and to make those who must work feel guilty is both wrong and insensitive.

    Frankly, both of us believe some churches have relegated women to singing and taking care of kids.What about the woman who knows church history far more than the men in her church? Are some people truly saying that a woman might not have some insight into the the way the church is run? Can only men decided where money should be spent in ministry? Does this really mean that only men are gifted in these decisions?

    We will be busy most of tomorrow so please bear with us.


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    Anonymous 12:27

    My comment on Keller was wrong. Timothy Paul Jones in Misquoting Truth, a response to Bart Ehrman’s tome, Misquoting Jesus, wrote that Junius was Junia and was a female who was counted among the apostles. Sorry about that-not enough sleep.


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    I agree with parenting being an important and high calling. I made the decision to stay-at-home full time with my children despite being reviled for doing so by my parents, especially my mother.

    I am the type of woman who was a natural-born mother. I loved the whole process of having children and raising them. It was an incredibly creative endeavor, with each day bringing new discoveries and fresh changes in growth and development. To have been an intimate part of my children’s lives each and every day was something I wholeheartedly embraced. I knew it was my calling that God gave me the faith to do.

    I think because it seemed to natural to me that it was easy for me to believe the argument that it was God’s plan for every woman. Plus, when I became a Christian in college in the late 70s, this type of teaching was very popular. All I heard was the hierarchicalists teaching that subjugated women by telling them their place in the home and in the family was not that of the men i.e. we weren’t allowed to do the same things like teach, preach or lead anything.

    I didnt recognize it at first, but I felt a sense of resentment toward women who enjoyed positions of teaching/leadership only because their husbands were pastors. It was as if no women could possibly be gifted and privileged enough to provide teaching and leadership unless she were married to a church leader. I knew this wasn’t true. But these same women seemed to enjoy having the best of both worlds while planting the ministries proud flag of ownership in the personal lives of every female church member: you are to submit and make the home the center of your lives because we say that is God’s plan for your life. And we get the credit for your faith in submitting yourself to what we tell you to do!

    Moreover, I felt a sense of resentment toward women who were married to “good guys” who “loved them.” And because they were such good husbands, the wives got to enjoy doing all sorts of things because their husbands didn’t object to them working outside the home, teaching or leading the women’s ministry, managing the household finances, or such things are moderating a blog, etc. It’s all because they were blessed enough to marry good men, and through their husbands godliness and the love they were shown, they were able to have a full Christian experience.

    And these women seem to flaunt this in front of the women whose husbands weren’t in leadership, or who didn’t treat them like queens. They loved to brag about how good and godly their husbands were, emphasizing the belief that the more spiritual the husband was, the more godly the wife was.

    A woman who wasn’t as privileged or whose husband wasn’t a supportive husband wasn’t as “blessed.” She had to sit on the sidelines. Sucks for her! If only her husband allowed her to enjoy a life as blessed and full as the other women!

    And so it is with the whole complementarian/egalitarian debate. I recognize feeling resentful toward women who have no problem living within a framework of female submission, because for them its never an issue. For them it works because their husbands are so good and so godly and they have never had to feel like they were sidelined because of their husbands. They never had to feel like if they just prayed harder or submitted more, then maybe someday their husband would find the magic and become a loving, supportive spouse – and then maybe their dream of teaching, or writing, or being able to manage a ministry or a business or a blog might come true.

    But if the husband doesnt support it – too bad. Wish your husband was as good as the woman’s who’s allowed to do all those things!


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    Two things are determinative for me as to why women should be in the places they are called to be in the service of Christ, as they each understand their call, and without restrictions imposed by humans or human institutions.

    First and clearest: Paul said that “In Christ, there is neither male nor female.” That means any insistence on gender distinctions in service to Christ and His church are NOT IN CHRIST, but outside of Christ, and hence in sin.

    Second: Jesus said that the model of service is servanthood, not authority. We are all sinners, saved by Grace, and none of us should be in authority over another. Christ is our only authority. As we are all priests to each other, all are equal in responsibility.

    Positions of “authority” in the church are contrary to the teaching of Jesus. Rather, whoever is in any role in the church is to be a servant, not an authority figure.

    Therefore, there is no need for a discussion of either gender being in authority over those of the other gender. The whole distinction is contradictory to the teaching of Christ, and therefore unCHRISTian.


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    Evie: “Sucks for her!”

    BINGO!

    I’ve preached against the “Sucks to be you” gospel given to women in the past.

    Certain men have exchanged the pure words, the pure gospel of Jesus Christ for a gender gospel. Gender roles now save you.

    Are you married to an abusive man but he’s never been unfaithful? Oh well, sucks to be you. Go back home and submit.

    Did you spend everything you had to support your husband as he climbed the corporate ladder, and now that he’s a success he likes his secretary better than you and left you? Oh, well sucks to be you. Figure out how to survive with no skills, no college education, and a bunch of kids you keep having to go back to court for to get minimal child support.

    Did you marry a good man, but there was and accident and he’s laid up and now you have to be the bread winner to support him, again, with no marketable skills? Oh, well, sucks to be you. You’re on your own sweetie.

    Never mind that you followed all our rules about roles and rules. God’s Word works. And if it’s not working for you. Something must be wrong with you. Because there is nothing wrong with this gender gospel that we have cooked up.

    And if I’m reading WTH right, he’s dealing with the male version of the “sucks to be you” gender gospel.

    I could say more, and I just might later. But right now I have to get ready for work.


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    Arce and Mara, I adored your above comments. Thank you for encouraging my soul this morning.

    I regret my time in SGM. But it taught me how easy it is for people to craft a particular experience and create a context in which they determine for others what truth is.

    Truth, then, is viewed through a lens which is shaped by those who define it. It becomes what you are taught to believe. So, for example, within the context of hierarchical churches, it is the ‘truth’ that gender roles are ‘biblical.’ And you’re surrounded by people who believe this and conform their lives to it, creating an environment that supports a particular interpretation of scripture.

    Or maybe you were raised in a ‘good Christian home.’ Maybe your Dad was a good bread winner and your Mom stayed home and supported her husband and the church from the saintly background. She never questioned anything and provided a warm, nurturing environment. The picture of domestic bliss. Surely this must mean complementarianism is true! How could one raised to honor and respect their good parents question the authenticity of their faith when it seems so good and so real?

    Yet, our experience isn’t what determines truth. God has defined the truth and instead of depending upon our personal experience or circumstances to determine what is true or not true, we must find it in Him alone.

    I understand it can be hard for a person raised in what seems like an idyllic Christian family to question whether their belief in male headship and female submission is true. Why question it when it seemed to work for them?

    And if the whole arrangement didn’t work for someone else, like Mara said “if it’s not working for you. Something must be wrong with you.”

    Truth isn’t subjective like post-modernists believe. It’s not a matter of what you were conditioned to believe the truth is. But there are groups like SGM that are very good at creating conditions and determining the context for them to control the definition of truth. If you don’t agree, then you’re not living according to the truth. And if it’s not working for you, something is wrong with you. Time to examine your heart because the sin is in YOU. How dare you suggest the sin is contained in our definition of what the truth is!


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    Two excellent quotes that bear repeating in my opinion:

    Arce wrote:

    First and clearest: Paul said that “In Christ, there is neither male nor female.” That means any insistence on gender distinctions in service to Christ and His church are NOT IN CHRIST, but outside of Christ, and hence in sin.

    Then Mara wrote:

    Certain men have exchanged the pure words, the pure gospel of Jesus Christ for a gender gospel. Gender roles now save you.

    Nothing like cutting straight to the heart of the issue. I dare anyone to disagree with them.


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    Great posting!

    Although “gender roles now save you” might be a stretch. I don’t know that any pastor would actually say this – even the specific ones discussed here. But that is the REAL problem as I see it. They preach the Gospel yet put forth a “very different gospel” by their example and lives! What words does Jesus then have for such as these – who add to the Gospel and create a little club instead?


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    Mark Driscoll:

    “Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture.”


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    Note:
    In this case I don’t have it out for Mark Driscoll.
    He is only saying out loud, what the other preachers of the gender gospel think. In that, I at least respect Driscoll for being honest about his beliefs.

    No, my problem with Driscoll is, and always will be, how he handles The Song of Solomon. That’s why I so appreciated WTH’s insiders view of Driscoll and SoS.


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    Dr. Bruce Ware came very close to saying just that in a sermon I heard on the CBMW site. He hints that the proper “biblical” role for woman does define their salvation in a sense…to not do as he teaches is for a woman to be in rebellion against God. Nor does she have a proper fear of the Lord. I do not know that, if pressed, he would come right out and say a woman cannot be saved if she does not embrace her “role”, but it sounded disturbing enough to me.

    Evie 11:55pm–I experienced the same thing with regards to the elders’ wives being the only ones who can lead the women’s bible study groups. No one else. I imagine just because of who they happen to share a bed with gives them all the same gift. Who knew!How fortunate for them all. 2 classes of people. Should not be.


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    Evie and all

    My mother was a stay at home mom, most of the time. Three big exceptions. 1. When she wanted my brother and me to have piano lessons, she went to work and bought a piano, saved up enough to pay for the lessons, and quit. 2. She was active in WMU, became state WMU president, and traveled around the state training local and associational WMU people, also traveling to national HQ. 3. When she decided she wanted to learn to pay the organ, she went to work and bought one from the money she earned.

    She also managed the money and paid the bills at our house, took us all on cross country auto trips (while Dad stayed home to work at his job), and was active with Meals on Wheels and several other service organizations.

    She felt the freedom to do these things.

    So, while things were not always sweetness and light, I really respected my mom for being her own person, for her deep faith in Jesus, and for her intelligence and creativity. NOT for being a weak link in the family and kowtowing to my dad, who was a gentle, loving husband and father, a business manager, and more years than not, chair of the deacons at our church.


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    Mara –

    I didn’t know that some of these guys were actually verbalizing this stuff. MD shouldn’t be leading or preaching at all if he has a different Gospel for women than men! Do women in his church not confront him or are they taught to not study scripture?

    Diane –

    The elders are then able to control what is taught in the bible studies. Their wives then don’t address anything that might be outside the “practices” of their church. The teaching is very contolled. The true gospel is not preached. Usually it comes down to practices being taught.


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    Brudget2–

    Ohhh…so that’s why the group was only able to discuss the homework questions for 2 minutes each question…got it. 🙂

    However, the gospel truly is preached there… which is why we even agreed to visit it in the first place. (We did not stay long enough, nor join a small group to see how it played out in life.) But the people were not very friendly and mostly stayed within their groups. One time in the women’s study when I did open up for my appointed 20 seconds of sharing, I shared about a friend’s struggle asking for some advice and I was told by the leader that I just had to “go out there and get yourself some new friends.”
    Knew that place was not going to work out.


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    The women in his church are not allowed to confront him.
    I guess one woman tried to set him straight on something and Driscoll turned to her husband and told him something along the lines of, “If you don’t shut her up, I will.”

    No. The only way for women to have any say on this is to vote with their feet. They need to leave Sovereign Grace, Mars Hill, CBMW, etc. They need to gut these organizations by leaving them and let the men figure out how important their self-proclaimed priviledge and authority are to them. The men in power will hear nothing else.

    There are plenty of churches out there. There are churches that don’t center their gospel on the bedrock and chief cornerstone of gender. There are other churches who don’t idolize gender roles, the family, and the structures of men. Women need to go find those churches and let the dead bury their dead in the churches sold out to gender idolotry.


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    So sorry–that should have been Bridget2 not Brudget2.


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    Mara 02:37pm–

    So the women, at least some of them, maybe most of them, would you say they like being treated that way? Is it a form of pride in them that makes them feel so biblical and superior by being treated in this manner? Or do you think most hate it and are trapped? Would they even be “allowed” to seek a different church?


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    Diane, I have no idea what the percentages are over at Mars Hill of how the women there feel.

    I don’t know how many have drunk the kool-aide and decided that Mark Driscoll is right and who are working towards salvation of their souls according to him.

    I don’t know how many are going throught the motions because they feel they have not other choice.

    I’ve heard rumblings of support groups or counseling sessions where women from MH whisper that their husbands don’t know they are there because if they found out, they’d never be able to come back again.
    But they are only rumors to me and I have no first hand knowledge.

    All I can go by is my own waking up from a stupor of being fed a certain, tainted gospel of another form, my anger at those who insisted that they spoke for God when they didn’t and my recovery from such a system.
    And what I work up from wasn’t half as bad, gender wise, as what MH women are being told concerning their salvation.


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    I hope you can make sense of my last comment with all the typos.


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    Thanks Mara. I have never been in such a system like Driscoll would teach so trying to grasp it—as I see his popularity and wonder why. My husband is not in favor of him–the little we have read about him– and we have not even read his S of S sermon. The pastor at the church we tried promoted him and when my husband questioned this rather strongly, the pastor was upset and said he was a brother, he gets the gospel right, and when you do that then everything usually falls into place. I do not think that is necessarily true. But there was no further discussion to be had.


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    Diane @ 12:05

    I think this explains the theological reasoning behind having the elder’s wives teach the Bible studies. The are are to help their husbands. If your husband does not teach, then you are not to teach. You are to help your husband in what he does. (I don’t believe this, it is just the reasoning used. Well, I do like to help my husband, but I also think that I can do other things as well.)

    http://alastairadversaria.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/representation-and-ordination/

    It’s the last of a 3-part series.


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    Thanks Dana –will have a look. So, I understand, then, that the elders’ wives would have to be the leaders of the groups, even if they did not like to be, as they have no choice in the matter.


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    Dana –

    Also, they may not be gifted as a teacher – but be required to teach? But, then again, if they are lead by their husbands it might not be that difficult. The teaching might be all scripted out and edited by husband/elder. This approach combined with 10-20 second responses by attendees could keep everything manageable 🙂

    No real discussion OR possible controversy will arise. Nothing like being Bereans! Oh, I forget. Only men can be Bereans since women should only view scripture as their husbands tell them to view it!


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    Well, actually, I find your description of the elder/husband controlling the wife’s leading to be less offensive than the teaching I linked to. Here’s a tidbit (and I mean tidbit – the piece is long):

    “Women are not ordained, because ordination (the laying on of hands) is for sons, who represent their fathers’ authority. The clergy should be exclusively male for this reason. The roles played by women are not roles of servant authority entered by ordination, but roles of glorious representation, recognized by the according of honour.

    The apostle’s wife is the apostle’s glory and she enjoys a position of exalted honour for that reason. No hands are laid on her in ordination, but she enjoys an exalted place alongside her husband in the life of the Church. When she gives counsel, people shut up and listen to her. She is sought for her wisdom. She is eminent among the women, not as an ordained Church officer, but as one who represents the glory of the apostle. She is held up as a model and example for imitation. She teaches and spiritually guides other women as an esteemed sharer in the apostle’s ministry. This position of honour is not merely one of reflected glory from her husband, for she is an expression of her husband’s glory.

    The apostle’s wife can lead the other women, under the apostle’s authority. This leadership is not the same as the apostle’s leadership, which involves clear rights of office over the members of the Church. The apostle’s wife possesses no such rights, nor can she exercise them on behalf of her husband, as she cannot image him. However, her leadership is effected through honour, as the members of the Church set her forth as a person to emulate and follow.

    Such women should be prominent in the life of the Church.”

    Sigh. I don’t know how all of what he writes doesn’t lead to the conclusion that women are lesser beings. I know, I know, valued just the same as if they weren’t, but lesser beings all the same.

    In the first part of this series, he says:

    “What ought we to say about women who are obviously gifted teachers and leaders? The Church in many quarters has much work to do in order to value the ministry of women as it ought. However, the way to address this is not to treat all roles as if they ought to be indifferent to gender, or as if they should exhibit gender equality. Rather, the solution is to recover and celebrate the numerous prominent roles that women can play within the life of the Church. We need more female spiritual directors, lay teachers, theologians, commentators, scholars, churchwardens, vestrywomen, treasurers, vergers, sacristans, elder women (different from elders), deaconesses, lay chaplains, leaders of Bible studies, missionaries, etc. The ministries of women in the Church should not be limited solely to ones involving dealing with children and other women, and much more use should be made of women’s gifts of spiritual guidance and insight, administrative ability, and theological wisdom.”

    I’m not sure how he reconciles the two statements. Well, I’m not sure how he can reconcile them to my satisfation, anyway.

    I apologize for the length of this comment.


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    Well Dana, your link was…well, interesting. My goodness he makes it all seem so complicated. 🙂 At least it is for me…this imaging and reflecting is all new to me.

    “This position of honour is not merely one of reflected glory from her husband, for she is an expression of her husband’s glory.”

    Can’t quite figure out just what all this really means–so I don’t get reflected glory… but I am an expression of glory? So women make the men look glorious. I remember reading the whole quote you posted above and thinking –wow—I can be all that–admired by all the other women in the church just because my hub is an elder?? Honored and revered? But I can’t image my husband. I never knew I couldn’t — never even knew it wasn’t an option…since I can’t now, it makes me really want to image him. I think I’ll ask him if I can image him just once.


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    An “exalted place”? Good grief.

    The quote you posted here sounds more Mormon than Christian… though I think a lot of the evangelical/fundy world is closer to Mormonism than any of them would ever want to admit. (am not saying this to be harsh toward Mormons, either… it’s just that I think there *is* a definite link between the two religions in terms of certain ideas and practices, re. gender roles especially.)


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    Diane – Wow. It never occurred to me to ask my husband if could image him. I don’t know. Maybe imaging him could dampen all my glory, er, his glory. Or infringe on my exalted place. Hmmmmmm….

    numo – Yeah, I know. What I don’t understand is all the people just eating that stuff up.


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    Dana 7:53pm OMG! That dude sounds so authoritative! It’s as if he is prophesying God’s word into existence! Trouble is, he never quotes scripture! He takes so many liberties with the Word, attempting to create standards and practices from ideas he’s pulled out a hat! It reminds me of voodoo. What a pile of crapola.

    Diane 9:55pm You made me totally laugh out loud lol!


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    I read through much of that link as well and came away feeling like he was trying to find a way to support women in ministry but had to find some qualifying factor along with being a believer.

    What really bothered me was that most of the justification for his position was pulled out of the OT and the law. Nothing much was said about our position in Christ or the New Covenant we now live in.


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    Eagle – the more I learn abouut Mormonism (and not from evangelical sources!), the clearer it is to me that the LDS is the red-headed stepchild of US evangelicalism/fundamentalism. It comes from pretty much the same roots (Google the “burned-over district” for more), including frontier revivals and weird folklore (more or less dowsing for gold and other treasure).

    i think it’s very ironic that so many evangelicals/fundies deride other religions but end up acting just like those whom they consider representative of those religions – who are, inevitably, extremists just like the evangelicals/fundies who deride them.


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    well, that comment was somewhat repetitive! 😉


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    Bridget @12:20

    The author of that piece was trying to explain how Junia could legitimately be called an apostle without actually being one. As Andronicus’ wife, she would have been an “esteemed sharer” in his ministry. I just thought the concept applied to having elders’ wives and no one else teach a Bible study today.

    He uses the idea of a “shaliach” – a coworker, helper, sharer in ministry. Timothy would have been Paul’s shaliach, Elisha would have been Elijah’s. A male shaliach such as Timothy or Elisha would have been the image and glory of Paul/Elijah and carried the authority of their leader. A wife such as Junia would have been a female shaliach that was the glory of her husband and held an esteemed place in the sharing of his ministry. “Women cannot represent, or image, the authority of the man, as that is not the form of representation for which they were created.”

    He believes in a type of leadership role for women, but that it should be different from men. He sketches it out here:

    “In Scripture, authority is symbolically masculine, as it originates with a God who stands over against us (a symbolically female deity will usually be accompanied by a downplaying of the Creator-creature distinction, and a tendency to place stress upon some original unity), and who refers to himself with masculine pronouns. This masculine character of authority means that men can ‘image’ authority in a manner that women can’t, although women can represent authority (as a wife can represent her husband, for instance). This creates a distinction between ‘priestly’ forms of leadership that can image authority, and ‘helper’ forms of leadership, which can only represent it (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:3-10).”

    Here he is explaining how the priestly husband/helper wife works out in family life:

    “If the life of the family is lived on four axes (borrowing a model from Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy), one could argue that the men are primarily active on the axis relating the family to the wider world, with the women as helpers, the women are primarily active on the axis that relates the family to the future, with the men as helpers, the men are primarily active on the axis relating the family to its moral and cultural norms and its past, with the women as helpers, and the women are primarily active on the internal axis of the family, within which the community of the family is formed, with the men as helpers.”

    He sees women sharing in leadership in a ‘gendered’ way. He sees himself as different than other complementarians.

    Honestly, nothing makes me want to just up and quit the whole Christianity thing more than reading this sort of thing. It sounds like “Hey, God really wants us to live in an ANE culture. Don’t worry, you women will like it. We’re really nice!!! We will honor you and share leadership!! Really!”


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    Rebellious image stealer—that be me.

    But thanks, Dana, for explaining the above and for the link. It brought back to my memory something I had read at the CunBMW about how a woman is only supposed to work by helping her husband if she works outside her home. (She would be submitting to another man if she worked for him and that is a no no.) Such silliness–so many rules–who can bear all that?

    There must be some reason women would like this way of life…but I am at a loss for an explanation…except for the exalted place enjoying, esteemed, honored, glory reflecting/expressing, revered, wisdom giving, imitation demanding, pre-packaged bible study teaching, counsel giving, spiritually guiding (ooops-that reminds me–better get myself a new friend and drop the one that has the problem) elders’ wives who have it all going on.


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    Dana @06:34:

    Reading through what you posted, I experienced an almost irresistable urge to stick my finger down my throat and hurl.


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    Arce,

    Sorry I haven’t responded sooner to your 12/12 @ 12:19pm post sooner.

    There’s a lot I want to say in response, but first I want to tell you that your Mom sounds like she was a good woman who set an excellent example. I appreciate what you shared and that you included the statement, “She felt the freedom to do these things.”

    I wish I had felt that same freedom and I blame myself in many ways for not having taken more initiative in my marriage, and for having allowed myself to be controlled to the extent that I was.

    I’ve identified several factors as to why I became so subordinated to the extent that I was and they include the following:

    1. I was verbally abused by my Mother growing up who constantly told me I was a non-person.

    2. My mother hated stay-at-home Moms and still does. From the time I was a girl, she painted the picture of a woman who didn’t work and who stayed at home full-time as one who was worthless, lazy, ate ‘bon-bons,’ watched soap operas, had her hair in curlers, and probably smoked.

    3. Not long after I was born-again at 18, and shortly before I got engaged to a guy I never dated at 20 (who I married 2 months later after turning 21), I read a book entitled, “How To Be The Wife Of A Happy Husband” by Darian Cooper. After having attended the “Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts” by Bill Gothard as an impressionable new believer, and being desirous of pleasing and serving God with my whole being, I felt compelled to conform my life to the ‘biblical’ model of the “Christian woman” – which seemed right to me since it was such a contrast to what my angry, abusive, working mother valued.

    4. My (ex)husband was controlling and shut me out of the finances, because, according to him they were ‘his.’ While members of an SGM church, my repeated attempts for help with our marriage (we were in and out of counseling during our 12+ years there) never resulted in any real change because men were the ‘heads’ and the ‘leaders’ of the household – instructed to manage the family finances. I tried and tried but there was nothing I could do to bring balance while not understanding how I was enabling things to persist. I did part-time work and did studies to make Christmas money, but other than that I was home full-time.

    5. Having alreading mentioned, the church we were in provided me with little support because my husband was not required to submit to me.

    I continued to believe in male headship/female subjugation until reading Gilbert Bilezikian’s book, “Beyond Sex Roles What The Bible Says About A Woman’s Place in Church And Family.” Reading that book confirmed what I knew to be true but which had been suppressed under years of false-teaching.

    I cannot say if reading this book pre-divorce would have saved my marriage. But I know there were several factors that contributed to my having been a door-mat for many years. I wish I had had more confidence in myself and in the real truth of God’s word!

    p.s. Please, I encourage anyone reading this who desires a more comprehensive understanding of the Bible, including some of those difficult passages regarding women & submission, please read Bilizekian’s book, “Beyond Sex Roles.” I trust you will be as blessed as I was. Make it your Christmas gift!


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    Diane, did the image include a beard and mustache? Hairy legs and armpits? Deep masculine voice?

    Have you head the ‘biblical’ pick up line?
    Guy to girl: “Wanna bone?” 😛


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    The quote you posted here sounds more Mormon than Christian… though I think a lot of the evangelical/fundy world is closer to Mormonism than any of them would ever want to admit. (am not saying this to be harsh toward Mormons, either… it’s just that I think there *is* a definite link between the two religions in terms of certain ideas and practices, re. gender roles especially.) — Numo

    I’m sure Eagle would agree; he’s made the comparison lotsa times.

    My theory is that Mormonism originated around the same time & place as the Revivialist tradition among Evangelicals — the “burned-over district” of upstate New York, at the time (1830s) the Weird Religion Capital of the USA. (Kind of like how California is today.)

    As a Jesuit homily said during that Harmonic Convergence panic, Spiritualism, Mormonism, and Seventh-Day Adventism all originated in that area within a few years of each other. (And those are just the ones we know of because they survived to this day. Includng a LOT of short-lived communes of these New Religions — like the nudist one that lasted only until its first Pennsylvania Winter.)

    It was called “the Burned-Over District” because everyone there had been burned out by Revival after Revival after Revival, Anointed Apostle after Anointed Apostle after Anointed Apostle, Revelation after Revelation after Revelation.

    As Mormons originated alongside the Evangelical High-Pressure Revival and Holiness/Separation movements, I would expect a lot of commonality in trappings and behaviors.


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    I didnt recognize it at first, but I felt a sense of resentment toward women who enjoyed positions of teaching/leadership only because their husbands were pastors. It was as if no women could possibly be gifted and privileged enough to provide teaching and leadership unless she were married to a church leader. I knew this wasn’t true. But these same women seemed to enjoy having the best of both worlds while planting the ministries proud flag of ownership in the personal lives of every female church member: you are to submit and make the home the center of your lives because we say that is God’s plan for your life. And we get the credit for your faith in submitting yourself to what we tell you to do! — Evie

    QUEEN BEE SYNDROME. Once I’M On Top, Make Sure NOBODY Can Ever Rise Up To Threaten ME and MY Goodies. And women can be VERY Indirect and Nasty when they do this.


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    Hi H.U.G, and thanks 🙂

    The Mahaney’s have always used their marriage & family like it was the ultimate model for everyone to aspire to. You’re right, no one else was to rise above them. It all had to do with this notion that they possessed special and unique powers because of CJ’s apostle/leader status. The power was understood as God’s blessing, and their marriage & family was the showcase. If CJ dismissed SGM Pastors/CGL’s on the basis of problems w/the wife or kids, he knew his ducks needed to be in a row.

    So, yes, in the SGM bubble, no one was a better woman than Carolyn Mahaney. No children were as good as the Mahaney girls. No one was more of a manly sports enthusiast than CJ and no one could manage the home and shop for time better than Carolyn. No one understood sex, romance and the glory of God more than CJ & Carolyn. Why need the gospel? Just focus on CJ & Carolyn. Dress like they tell you to dress! Think like they tell you to think! Read what they suggest you read! Watch the Superbowl like they do! Take a vacation like they do! And when they pray and ask for the Holy Spirit to speak, insert either CJ or Carolyn for the Holy Spirit!


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    Evie,

    You have just described what I consider to be cult-like behavior. It’s very disturbing.