A giant shock wave, created by a speeding star known as Kappa Cassiopeiae NASA/JPL
I am currently trying to pull together a post on John MacArthur, which will give an overview of some posts that I have written about him or his ministry, church, and schools. I am also working on two posts about the Christian and Missionary Alliance response to a pastor with a history of abusive behavior of a sexual nature. Yes, this is the denomination involved in the Ravi Zacharias disturbing mess. Also, I need to write about the new business being started by Sovereign Grace Churches: a college! I’m sure there will be even more to discuss, given all of the news recently. My mom is doing well in rehab, so slowly looking up things.
Today, I want to look at the following scenario. A pastor became sexually involved with a church or staff member. Is this clergy abuse, or is it an affair? I want to use the term “clergy abuse” since it is a specific classification. Let’s wrap the discussion around the Bruxy Cavey situation.
The Downfall of Bruxy Cavey: Ontario’s Most Influential Pastor
Christianity Today posted Ontario’s Most Influential Pastor Resigns Following Abuse Investigation. Cavey was known for his Anabaptist beliefs. Anabaptists, according to Brittanica:
They considered the public confession of sin and faith, sealed by adult baptism, to be the only proper baptism. Following the Swiss reformer Huldrych Zwingli, they held that infants and young children are not accountable for sin until they become aware of good and evil and can exercise their own free will, repent, and accept baptism.
The Anabaptists also believed that the church, the community of those who have made a public commitment of faith, should be separated from the state, which they believed existed only for the punishment of sinners. Most Anabaptists were pacifists who opposed war and the use of coercive measures to maintain the social order; they also refused to swear oaths, including those to civil authorities.
According to Wikipedia, Cavey:
In 1997, Cavey became the senior pastor at Upper Oaks Community Church based in Oakville, Ontario.[3][4] The church grew over 35 percent annually and hired more pastoral staff, so Cavey transitioned into a teaching pastor role.[5]During that time the church’s name was changed to The Meeting House to reflect the denomination’s Anabaptist roots. By 2002, The Meeting House was overcrowded, and they had to set up an overflow area with a screen. Church members who travelled from neighbouring cities requested support to watch the service on a screen in their home town. A plan was set in motion to create the church’s first regional site in Hamilton, Ontario. Each parish has their own staff and live music, showing the sermon from the week before at the main site in Oakville.[6] Cavey and the Meeting House have a broad international following through Cavey’s Twitter, blog, and the church’s free sermon resources including podcasts and downloadable videos of sermons and content.
Here is a link to The Meeting House website. This is a link to their doctrinal statement. It describes their Anabaptist denomination called The Be In Christ Church of Canada. If you read further, you might see that they are committed to peace and nonviolence. Cavey was known to be apolitical
The Be In Christ Church of Canada has been influenced by four theological traditions during its 200 year history. Each theological tradition has had an important impact on our faith community but the longest and most pronounced influence has been the anabaptist tradition born during the radical reformation period. Using the analogy of a tree to describe our theological history, Anabaptism would be the trunk with Pietism, Wesleyanism, and Evangelicalism being the branches.
Palmer Becker, author of Anabaptist Essentials, summarizes anabaptist theology by stating that “the centre of our faith is Jesus, the centre of our life is community, and the centre of our work is reconciliation.” This excellent summary reflects the BIC commitment to place Jesus’ teaching, example, and atonement for sin at the centre of our lives and our theology. Our movement is Jesus-centered both in interpreting the Bible and living out our Christian faith and practice.
Cavey’s downfall: a sexual relationship
According to Christianity Today:
This large community of members and former members is now grieving a blow they hardly expected from their own “megachurch pastor for people not into megachurch pastors,” as one scholar called him.
After a three-month-long investigation, Cavey, 57, publicly confessed on Tuesday to an “adulterous relationship.” The church said it amounted to abuse of authority and sexual harassment against a woman under his pastoral counsel, asked him to resign, and removed his teachings from its website. The victim and her advocates say Cavey committed clergy sexual abuse.
Things did not go smoothly because the third-party investigation did not call out Cavey’s actions as abuse. One pastor resigned in solidarity with the victim.
Adding to the upheaval, not everyone at The Meeting House was satisfied with the results of a third-party investigation, which did not call Cavey’s behavior sexual abuse. Danielle Strickland, a fellow teaching pastor at The Meeting House, stepped down in solidarity with the victim on Monday—the day before the church released its report and Cavey announced his resignation.
Strickland, who had been on staff at The Meeting House since 2019, was first to hear the victim’s story last year. She lobbied behind the scenes for the church to change the language in its statement, seeing how the woman who came forward felt “unheard” and “unsupported” in the process. “The whole truth needs to be told, or else not only will there not be healing, but I think there will be further harm,” Strickland said.
The former pastor shared a statement from her on Wednesday morning. More than 15,000 people tuned in for the remarks on Instagram Live, cheering on Strickland’s advocacy and the victim’s bravery in the threads below the video.
Religion News Services offers more information in Bruxy Cavey’s former megachurch debates allegations: Sex abuse or an affair?
These details are essential for the debate: age differential and actions that took place during clergy counseling sessions.
Strickland said the victim, who was half Cavey’s age (she was 23 and he was 46) when the sexual relationship allegedly began, asked the board to define what happened as “clergy sexual abuse.” The victim wrote a statement to that effect, which she asked the board chair to read aloud. The board declined to do so.
Maggie John, who chairs the Meeting House board, said at Tuesday night’s meeting that Cavey’s actions were not an affair, since they took place in the context of clergy counseling.
But she said the board wanted to stick to the language used by the investigator who found that Cavey had committed “sexual harassment” and “abuse of power.”
The Roys Report offers more details in Bruxy Cavey Confesses to Sexual Misconduct—But Not Abuse
The church allowed him to resign rather than be fired.
In a post on his website, the 56-year-old pastor and author acknowledged that “there is truth” at the core of the allegations that led to his resignation late last week. The Meeting House in Oakville, Ontario, one of Canada’s largest churches, had accepted his resignation as teaching pastor Thursday following a third-party investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct.
The relationship went on for some years.
he said at the town hall meeting that the misconduct “went on for a number of years.”
The third-party investigation group did not use the word “abuse” so the church declined to use the word as well.
She acknowledged that the alleged victim and Danielle Strickland, a former teaching pastor at the church, “would like us to use stronger language that goes beyond what was found in the report.”
Cavey’s ministerial credentials have been removed.
Does this matter? Can’t he start up a new Anabaptist-type church on his own?
Cavey admits to misconduct, not abuse
Is this just a dodge?
Hagars Voice: the victim speaks
The victim wanted to read a statement to The Meeting House Board, but they declined to hear it.Strickland, the pastor who resigned, decided to give the victim a website: Hagar’s Voice.
“If I am to give her a platform, then there could be some correcting of the power imbalance,” Strickland said in the video. “Maybe I can help model for the Meeting House what solidarity with the victim looks like.”
I am reprinting the statement that was not allowed to be read by The Meeting House.
Initial Statement from Hagar
“There was a question in the Meeting House Town Meeting that was very reasonable given the language that was used in the explanation of the findings. Someone simply asked,
“Wasn’t this just an affair?”
Executive Chair of the Overseers Board, Maggie John responded directly,
“No. The investigator found given how the relationship started, which was in a clergy/counsellor relationship, Bruxy abused his power and authority. And as the pastor, Bruxy was responsible for ensuring he did not abuse his power and authority.”
I feel this question has come up because the findings failed to name this abuse of power and authority explicitly for what it is: clergy sexual abuse. This began during a pastoral counselling relationship when I was 23 and he was 46. I was in crisis and trusted him, and I did not, nor could I, consent to a sexual relationship with him.This for me was *NOT* an extra marital relationship or affair, it was a devastating twisting of pastoral care into sexual abuse. Last night, the Meeting House shared that they stand with victims and do not tolerate abuse or sexual misconduct. I hope you can understand why I need time to process the trauma of this moment but in the future I would like to share about how clergy sexual abuse can be prevented, and other victims and survivors can be protected from further harm when they come forward.
For now, I would like to speak to anyone listening who is or has been sexually abused by their pastor and doesn’t know who to trust or where to go. Maybe you’ve been sexually abused by your pastor and you are confused. You’ve been told it’s an extra marital affair, that it’s loving, and you feel confused because you deeply care for and want to protect your pastor from any harm. Maybe you’ve been told you are the only one who understands them.
Jesus sees you. He is holding your face in his hands, looking you straight in the eyes, and speaking truth to you. You are being abused. Jesus can rescue you from this abuse, and he can help you right now. Your life matters to him. He’s with you. Invite the light of truth to break the lies and secrecy that this pastor has trapped you in. Tell one person you trust. I know you can do it because I did. Jesus is so much bigger than you can imagine, and he sees you and will never stop rescuing you.”
If you too are a victim and would like to be put in contact with prayerful advocates that will stand with you, please feel free to get in contact: contact.hagarsvoice@gmail.com
Discussion: Affair, Abuse, or?
I found these two comments at The Roys Report interesting since they seem to outline the issues involved. I can answer one question about professional counseling. The church has reportedly set up a fund to help victims receive counseling.
I can’t seem to find the name of the third-party investigation group. Does anyone know? I would love to speak with them.
I am going to shut up and read what you think. I have some specific thoughts on the matter. I have left many clues throughout the post that should affect your thoughts on the topic. Anyone who believes that the victim bears some blame must provide proof for their thinking beyond “She should have done a Joseph with Potiphar” move.”
First?
I find it interesting that the people who pull the “She should have done a Joseph with Potiphar card” are usually people who have never been in such situations. I think there was a similar thread on Twitter where someone said that yes, Bathsheba should have risked being killed for not having sex with David.
I wrote a post in which I contended that Bathsheba was raped.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/08/01/why-i-believe-that-king-david-assaulted-bathsheba-justiceforbathsheba-metoo/
I’m trying to give the investigator the benefit of the doubt here but how does one go from sexual harassment by a spiritual authority figure to a consensual sexual relationship? And if it’s not consensual…
Did anyone ask if grooming behavior was identified? Is that ever NOT the case when a pastor starts a ‘relationship’ with a female in crisis he is counseling who is half his age? Are there any flags of a color other than red that this was entirely abusive?
Was she told spiritual lies to draw her into the ‘affair?’ Was she told spiritual lies to keep her quiet? Was she isolated in some way from other wise counsel?
So, I guess what I’m saying is: it’s abuse.
“The investigator found given how the relationship started, which was in a clergy/counselor relationship, Bruxy abused his power and authority. And as the pastor, Bruxy was responsible for ensuring he did not abuse his power and authority.”
Enough said. Case closed.
Can you really take a “pastor” seriously who has Leviticus 19:28 tattooed on his arm?
“Do not … put tattoo marks on yourselves” (Leviticus 19:28)
“My mom is doing well in rehab, so slowly looking up things.“
Slowly looking up things because things are slowly looking up? (Good to hear)
So if this isn’t abuse, how would this church define it?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that mean no Jesus? Being as Bathsheba was one of his ancestors?
The investigators name is Catharine Milne. She is an attorney at TurnpennyMilne LLC out of Toronto and Vancouver.
From her work webpage bio:
“…represents both employers and employees and has appeared before the Ontario courts, Canadian and Ontario Human Rights Tribunals and federal and provincial labour and employment boards, as well as other administrative bodies. Catherine is regularly retained to act as an independent workplace investigator and has worked in a variety of private and public sector settings, including School Boards, Universities, Municipalities, Government and Quasi-Government environments. Her investigation practice includes allegations of workplace harassment and bullying, sexual harassment, Code of Conduct violations, conflicts of interest, fraud, discrimination (personal and systemic), dishonesty and theft, hostile work environment and health and safety violations. In addition Catherine is often retained to provide in-house training and workplace facilitation and remediation to clients on a variety of workplace issues. Catherine has an interest in corporate governance issues honed from her having held several Board positions in the not-for-profit and public sectors.”
dee,
Dee, I’d never considered the David-Bathsheba text this way until #ChurchToo came along and I read this blog post of yours. It’s just always called “adultery,” both in sermons & even in a lot of Bibles as a chapter heading. I’ve read more on it since—and you’re totally right. Thanks for getting me thinking about this.
Loren: The church wanted to stick to the integrity of the report language. (They aren’t reeleasing it they say out of respect for the victims privacy). There is no NDA. She can go to police and file a civil suit. Privacy laws are strict in Canada, make of that what you will.
The church defined it as sexual sin, and abuse of power and authority.
I define it as clergy sexual abuse.
I’d like to point out a couple of cultural differences between Canada and the US.
As an attorney who has appeared before provincial and the federal tribunals, Milne would be legally precise in her language.
Here is the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal definition of sexual harrassment: https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preventing-sexual-and-gender-based-harassment/2-identifying-sexual-harassment
Section s.271 of the Criminal Code of Canada defines sexual assault. Some forms of sexual harrassment fall under the Code. Section s.153 deals with sexual exploitation.
While Milne has nonprofit investigative experience, we don’t know if any churches are part of her resume. Canadian churches have to abide by federal and provincial/territory workplace laws and regulations.
A lot people haven’t heard the specific term clergy sexual abuse. The Mennonite Central Committee Canada:
“Clergy misconduct includes sexualized behaviour, inappropriate words and innuendo, harassment, threats, physical movement and contact, hugs, kisses, touching, intercourse, emotional and spiritual manipulation. It is a grave injustice toward another person, which violates personal boundaries.
Bruxey Cavey can get himself credentialed from non denominational outfits which means he can match and dispatch and operate an independent church. It’s not very likely a Canadian denomination would credential him now.
Loren: The church wanted to stick to the integrity of the report language. (They aren’t releasing it they say out of respect for the victims privacy). There is no NDA. She can go to police and file a civil suit. Privacy laws are strict in Canada, make of that what you will.
The church defined it as sexual sin, and abuse of power and authority.
I define it as clergy sexual abuse.
I’d like to point out a couple of cultural differences between Canada and the US.
As an attorney who has appeared before provincial and the federal tribunals, Milne would be legally precise in her language.
Here is the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal definition of sexual harrassment: https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preventing-sexual-and-gender-based-harassment/2-identifying-sexual-harassment
Section s.271 of the Criminal Code of Canada defines sexual assault. Some forms of sexual harrassment fall under the Code. Section s.153 deals with sexual exploitation.
While Milne has nonprofit investigative experience, we don’t know if any churches are part of her resume. Canadian churches have to abide by federal and provincial/territory workplace laws and regulations.
A lot people haven’t heard the specific term clergy sexual abuse. The Mennonite Central Committee Canada:
“Clergy misconduct includes sexualized behaviour, inappropriate words and innuendo, harassment, threats, physical movement and contact, hugs, kisses, touching, intercourse, emotional and spiritual manipulation. It is a grave injustice toward another person, which violates personal boundaries.
Bruxey Cavey can get himself credentialed from non denominational outfits which means he can match and dispatch and operate an independent church. It’s not very likely a Canadian denomination would credential him now.
I think it’s the fact it took place in a church which complicates it.
If this happened in education or healthcare (speaking from a UK perspective) it would be the professional relationship which would make this abuse rather than misconduct.
But in those settings if a teacher or doctor had an affair with another consenting adult outside of the workplace it wouldn’t even be misconduct.
It’s the expectations of clergy clashing with legal definitions. For the record I think the church should make the decision to call it abuse and treat it as such because people should be able to be ministered to in a boundaried way. Then they would be taking possible repercussions for the woman’s spiritual life seriously.
Abuse. Full stop.
I don’t know the exact legal definition of clergy sex abuse. I don’t know why the church got some lawyer to write a report instead of going to the police. I don’t need to know that stuff to see that this story stinks. A 20 something woman in crisis went looking for help, and someone she would naturally regard as a trustworthy authority figure exploited her vulnerability. It ain’t complicated folks.
The Roy’s Report article clearly states the investigator found evidence of sexual harassment and abuse of power on the pastor’s part. Yet there are people there commenting things like “the only victim here is his wife.” I saw someone trying to argue that if the woman went to a hotel with this guy then that would mean it was consensual because the sex happened outside of their counseling relationship. Like… wha?? One commenter was even trying to turn it around and say, “why are so many women willing to cheat with pastors?” As though the real problem isn’t a PASTOR looking at a vulnerable person and saying, “how can I get something out of her?”
Many things I don’t quite get about this story but two things seem pretty clear to me-one, abuse. Two, I completely see why the victim doesn’t want to be named publicly!
It sounds like abuse to me, from what has been presented. I tread cautiously into the term since the woman was not a minor, and since the relationship is said to have continued for several years.
I will be clear: I do not think every time a supervisor, clergy, physician, counsellor, or whatever engages in consensual sex with an adult is abuse. I do believe that the “underling” can be the initiator of the relationship, and if a full grown adult they do bear some responsibility even if not the initiator.
So I personally have no problem calling him an abuser, defrocking him permanently. But as part of the counselling she will need there needs to be an element of helping her strengthen her boundaries so that even when she feels she is in crisis mode she has the tools to refuse to engage in improper actions.
We need to make it clear to clergy that it is never ever ever going to be ok for them to have sex with someone they counsel, preach to, teach, or whatever outside their own marriage. Now if the pastor is single, we have to use common sense as to the pastor’s right to date and court, but even there pastor should keep it zipped until the marriage.
And we need to strengthen the boundary health of all who attend church so that they realize the clergy are only people doing it the best they can, are fallible, and if they suggest something clearly outside of the Big Ten Rules the parishioner retains the responsibility to run like heck.
And yes, I have “been there” when someone is attempting evil deeds. Not that naive. I do know what it is to experience unwanted advances even from religious “elites.” And I do know as a personal friend a woman who was horribly abused as a child, but struggles now with the fact she sees every man as a new abuser. If the man refuses to have sex with her she begins to see him as stalker, or says he accosted her, or something. If he has sex with her she is the abused one taken advantage of again. Her own admissions in court under oath reveal these sad details. She is now basically unemployable and churches are not welcoming places to her. My heart breaks for her, and I believe the root evil is what happened to her as a child, but it has taught me to be a bit circumspect as to who is an abuser and who is not.
But in this case presented, I would say the “pastor” is an abuser and even if not, should never function in church leadership again. And I would say the woman needs some good boundary strengthening counselling so she realizes her own power. That would enable her in the future, short of forcible rape, to exercise her power to not give consent.
Sad for her, mad at him.
When Pastor Bruxy tattoos himself to mock Leviticus, he is essentially telling the world that he is an antinomian … a belief that “Christians” are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. And then he goes on to prove what he believes.
(if left unchecked, the New Calvinist movement will lead to widespread antinomianism)
Or he will pop up in the U.S. somewhere, knowing that anything goes here! His style of ministry will attract a new batch of followers in no time. Affairs, adultery, abuse are not ministry dis-qualifiers in some corners of the American church … we talk about them all the time on TWW.
“I need to write about the new business being started by Sovereign Grace Churches: a college!”
Just when I was hoping that SGC would fade into the sunset. Good Lord – that’s all the church doesn’t need … a band of young SGCers roaming around! We haven’t got over the new reformers yet!
“My mom is doing well in rehab, so slowly looking up things.”
Praise the Lord!
It’s horrible when you see stuff like this being done by people you had respected. Given the context of the sexual contact it’s clearly Clergy Sexual Abuse – she was half his age, she was under his care in terms of being counselled by him, the power dynamic was massively shifted in his favour…if he was a credentialled counsellor it would be considered illegal in most places. He could certainly have asked for help if he felt tempted by his ‘client’.
I’m also of the opinion that this may not be the first time, people who exploit others normally exploit others, plural, when given the opportunity. I hope not, but I suppose we’ll see.
I’m glad there are those from the Meeting House who are prepared to stick their necks out on this, & make sure this extra dimension is properly considered. I hope Bruxy himself accepts that, no matter the response to his advances, he carries a reponsibility for this in a way she doesn’t. In the outside chance she made the first move, in my profession if a young person came onto you, threw themselves at you, no matter how deliberately, as professionals our response is to be to refuse, step back & ask our team/supervisors for help. He had a route out, if he wanted one.
Here is the PROBLEM in a nutshell:
“…This began during a pastoral counselling relationship when I was 23 and he was 46. I was in crisis and trusted him, and I did not, nor could I, consent to a sexual relationship with him.”
Dee, when people are ‘in crisis’, they are sometimes VERY vulnerable. She came for help and understanding when she was upset, and she was taken advantage of instead.
That is an abuse of the counseling relationship by the ‘pastor’ on so many levels that I do NOT see how any Church authorities could justify or diminish his guilt.
Poor girl. That she was a victim is a ‘given’ here.
How many of these ‘pastoral counselors’ are trained in the ethics of the counseling profession????? That people ‘trust’ them because of the Church is an even greater indictment against the character of the abusers.
Sad to read this, yes. The young woman WAS a victim in her vulnerability at that time, yes. He took advantage of her vulnerability and of his authority as a counselor.
Maybe our seminaries and universities ought to begin to pay attention to teaching ETHICS within the boundaries of a counseling relationship, with some certifications to follow, so that the public is more protected?????
Exactly.
CMT on Sat Mar 12, 2022 at 10:13 AM said:
“The Roy’s Report article clearly states the investigator found evidence of sexual harassment and abuse of power on the pastor’s part.
Yet there are people there commenting things like “the only victim here is his wife.”
…if the woman went to a hotel with this guy then that would mean it was consensual because the sex happened outside of their counseling relationship.
…“why are so many women willing to cheat with pastors?” As though the real problem isn’t a PASTOR looking at a vulnerable person and saying, “how can I get something out of her?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
i marvel at how unaware some people are. their sheer stupidity.
in my ‘travels’ in life, so many are ‘christian enculturated’. or, i could just say ‘religion enculturated’, wherever the religions land on the cultic scale.
it’s like religious systems suck out the intelligence of people. they regress to being able to see large basic shapes in black, white and red.
the religious systems censor out the myriad other levels of information because it’s easier to maintain the system that way.
so people are only exposed to basic shapes, and the slow drip message is that anything else is not to be trusted because it’s too frightening & confusing a prospect.
perhaps religious systems draw people who don’t want to think for themselves because it’s too tiring or frightening. so they look to the system, the text, the leader(s) to do it for them. (which is the whole point of the system)
in the context at issue, it’s the christian religious systems.
i find what this silly religion of mine does to people is astonishingly unimpressive, and hazardous.
From a time and place where if a King did it, it wasn’t rape.
“DON’T! LOOK! UP!
DON’T LOOK! UP!
DON’T LOOK! UP!
DON’T LOOK! UP!
DON’T LOOK! UP!
…” — That Netflix movie that’s going viral
Remember JMac of Chicago and the buck-sergeants-stripes-with-a-steeple tat?
Was that the same JMac who shot at photos of his elder team with a pellet pistol?
… and replace it with indoctrinated robotic group think. Critical thinking is tossed out the window with follow-the-leader no matter what. Eventually no matter what makes it to the pages of TWW and beyond, with the robots proclaiming “What happened?!”
Or, the alluring woman tempted the poor man and thus brought the saintly guy down, so her fault, she’s evil, the witch.
Oh, but Pastor Bruxy is/was too big to fail! After all, he is/was “Ontario’s Most Influential Pastor” … just look at how he influenced his victim! These things never cease to amaze me … there is still a great multitude defending Ravi Zacharias … go figure.
Worth repeating … “He had a route out, if he wanted one” … “He had a route out, if he wanted one” … “He had a route out, if he wanted one”
Different mindset among some religious folks w/seminaries:
Men are inherently good.
Women are temptresses.
Pastors are called by God.
Get out of the way.
Keep the imperfect human DOJ out of sacred church business.
All presuppositions based on false assumptions.
…put Jesus on the cross.
…built a golden calf.
…built Babel.
Max,
Max,
🙂
When a local church is built on money and notariety with men/women.
Acts 1 prescribes neither collection, nor public influence, nor buildings, nor a business model.
Meet, pray, in unity, wait, until the Holy Spirit has come upon the group.
1. Jesus’ followers
2. Listening to & obeying Jesus
3. Meeting together
4. Praying
5. In unity
6. Waiting
7. The Holy Spirit comes upon them.
7 inaugural steps to church.
Very good points. Also completely agree that if you are a professional and someone comes on to you while you are in that capacity, it is your responsibility to maintain boundaries regardless of what they do. I work in a field (healthcare) in which this is a given. People who fail to adhere to this standard lose their licenses and sometimes go to jail. Even in the least charitable view of “Hagar’s” role (ie she initiated the sexual behavior, which seems highly unlikely to me), the pastor still exploited an opportunity afforded him by his position of trust to get access to another person’s body for his own benefit. Aka-abuse.
elastigirl,
“I marvel at how unaware some people are. their sheer stupidity”
I edited the words “ignorant” and “gobsmacked” out of my original comment but I see I was not the only one to get that impression. I think you are right, church culture tends to reinforce people’s natural tendency to filter out information that doesn’t fit their paradigm.
I want to make fun of folks for not knowing what grooming is, or understanding how abuse dynamics operate. Fact is I can’t. Until recently I didn’t know I had been living in a culture of abuse and silence for my whole life. The ugly secrets were everywhere-“good church folks” who were my second family growing up, the summer camp I attended as a kid, the local mega my husband and I attended when we were first married, the small church we attended after- I had been swimming in filth for 30+ years and didn’t know it. It didn’t touch me directly so I didn’t see it till much later. I get why people prefer not to see this stuff. Life is way, way easier if you don’t.
Ava Aaronson,
Right, because we all know God designed men to only be able to think with one head at a time
It just occurred to me, could all of patriarchy just be the world’s biggest, oldest example of DARVO?
“The church said it amounted to abuse of authority and sexual harassment against a woman under his pastoral counsel”
The church is probably using the legal language. I don’t think that there is a legal category of clergy sexual abuse, yet. Because one person is in authority over another, consent cannot be freely given.
If there is abuse of authority, sexual harassment, sexual misconduct (with a parishioner), an affair, that all indicates clergy sexual abuse in common language.
When I was in seminary, one of my female friends and I talked about how there are a lot of stories of sexual abuse and rape in the Old Testament. The men seemed to be oblivious to it, though.
If the average churchgoer in the average church in America were to seriously spend a season exploring Scripture to determine what real-deal Church is and what church is not … they would most likely find out that their place of worship is not.
Ava Aaronson,
… and shouted “Give us Barabbas!”
Ava Aaronson,
… demanded a king
Kings demand power, wealth, applause = mega-church pastor
Max,
They tried to make Jesus king, too. He “withdrew”.
Speaking as a former therapist back in the day, this is clearly abuse. Bruxy violated every tenet that was instilled in me, and I instilled in my students when I was teaching, that you never, never, ever have a sexual relationship with a counselee. Furthermore, given the younger age of the woman and his position as an authority figure, I can’t see this as anything but clergy sexual abuse that started in a counseling relationship.
As for Bathsheba, I was raised in a Jewish neighborhood (I’m not Jewish), and the rabbis always said it was a thinly-disguised rape. David was in a position of authority, and his victim couldn’t say no. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? Furthermore, Bathsheba almost had to stay with her rapist, since in that culture, she was irrevocably compromised and her reputation ruined. What choice did she have?
He was already King of kings, but they didn’t realize it … just as the church today has trouble distinguishing between the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of men.
“Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.”
‘Cuz the one with the power who is a bully wins.
Spoke with a church planter yesterday, a professional employed (banker) OUTSIDE church, paid NOTHING for his churchwork. His group meets Sunday afternoons, renting space from another church. Minimal budget. He noted that power (of any demographic, position, brand, party) renders the opportunity for evil, every time. Look at power/position & what do you see? That’s reality.
We did exactly that. We put all books & media in storage for a year and ONLY explored the Bible. Big reveal. Changed our lives. We had landed on the verse about the Word of God being Eternal while facing a major health crisis in our family. So we decided that since God’s Word is all we’ve got in the end, let’s be there.
Some media genre & such never came back. Out the door. And, we’re not anti-TV or anti-Movie or anti-Internet or anti-Tech fundies. We’re not big on book burning/banning and censorship. No Basic Life Principles. But certain genre (some which are very popular among Christians), we felt, did not fit with our values.
Personally, I feel this sharpened our children’s minds. They get good grades, high achievers, without striving, in technical fields. They also seem emotionally healthy. I believe, anecdotally, this is attributable to the lasting effects of God’s Word. Anyway, it didn’t hurt. No harm done and no judgement regarding others’ choices.
Agreed. Highly unprofessional. Completely off the rails. Sick. Evil.
When the church pulpit/stage/platform or the church counseling office is used on behalf of a leader for money, vice, or power, it is no longer a church, it is a cult.
“Oh, but we need to support & pay our leader.”
Try meeting as Christians on level ground, without paying or supporting or kowtowing to a leader. Civic groups do this 24/7 all over the globe, and function well. They agree to common values while sticking to common goals, with transparency – for the win.
All these pastor types that love to hang out and banter in coffeeshops, could be gainfully employed in their venue of choice – the coffeeshops. Win-win.
Good Lord! Look at him, listen to him … why would anyone in their right spiritual mind support and pay this guy?!! The most influential pastor in Ontario?!! I’d hate to hear the rest of them preach!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslDXh4uEMw
The NeoCal dudebros hog the tables at the coffee shops here, tweeting their lives away and searching for online sermons, rather than ministering to the hurting and dying in our community … and they certainly don’t tell lost folks in the coffee shop about Jesus (that’s old school, you know).
Bingo! Or should I say AMEN!
elastigirl,
Speaking of which, my husband and I watched the “I do not permit a woman to speak” sermon last night.
The pastor was more middle-of-the-road complementarian, which I can live with but am not excited about. Limits a woman’s submission to marriage and the church, and in the context of church is ok with a woman teaching or in leadership as long as she doesn’t have the title of “pastor.” Did say a husband should not abuse his wife, but neither defined abuse nor said that it’s ok for a woman to get herself out of an abusive marriage. So, was really negligent there.
But even my self-identified complementarian husband was uncomfortable with the amount of proof-texting going on. And that the pastor imported the topic of marriage into the passage (1 Timothy 2:11-15) with the assumption that everyone gets married. And that he bragged about his wife’s submission to his “crazy idea to sell everything we had and move halfway across the world because she trusted my judgement. And here I am blessing you in this church. Amen?” (It was totally not tongue-in-cheek.)
And the sermon totally set the stage for “men = leaders” and “leaders must guard against false doctrine.” (While I personally think EVERYONE should guard against false doctrine, but there I go being winsome, again.)
The church is congregational. Tomorrow’s sermon is on the qualifications of overseers part of 1 Timothy. Husband already offered to make a bet about whether the pastor is going to preach on how “biblical” elder-led churches are.
I declined the bet.
I’m actually looking forward to tomorrow’s sermon, because I am so not taking it seriously. I’m thinking of making a bingo sheet for my husband and I.
Would that be too irreverent?
Max,
One thing we definitely did NOT end up with after our year of Bible focus was the pseudo syndrome…
i.e., pseudo counseling like the creep in Dee’s post here who violates those he counsels.
Nor pseudo science like the pastors who have no idea what they speak of.
Nor pseudo pedagogy of those who refuse to enroll students in accredited schools with integrity and academic standards.
Etc.
He must be a complementarian because women counsellors aren’t allowed. Wesleyan and pietistic = oh no we’re not calvinistic you know. Evangelical = oh no we’re not Reformed you know. Influential = oh no we’re not political you know. Does he eat buttered scones for tea and press wild flowers?
CMT,
elastigirl,
Thank you Elastigirl & CMT, you have vividly expressed for me the sheer phenomenology of most of my life.
No. If a preacher inspires his congregation to develop Neo-cal buzzword bingo cards, that could certainly be a movement of the Holy Spirit.
Need for translation, plz, for across the Pond. Thx.
(TWW is internationally inclusive. Truly “Go ye into all the world”.)
You could do what most folks have been doing for years in stuffy churches … think about Sunday lunch! When encountering a boring sermon, my mind drifts to fly fishing or hiking. There is a tipping point in every church for true believers: when it becomes more exhausting than refreshing, it’s time to go fishing (or whatever).
Elder-led to a New Calvinist really means elder-RULE. When the new reformers take over a congregational church, they always go for complete control as soon as possible. If they can’t get enough votes to change church governance, they will recruit enough like-minded new members to swing the vote their way. Then the congregation splits (old folks and their money go), leaving the young whippersnappers with the church and its resources with not enough money coming in from their dudebros to pay the electric bill. Doesn’t sound “Biblical” to me.
Those would be “TULIP” cards
Ava Aaronson,
Sorry – forgot to include link.
A selective allusion to a Monty Python song (mainly from the shirt), but with doubt cast on it by phrasing as a question
https://www.lyricsmania.com/lumberjack_song_lyrics_monty_python.html
I appreciate shirts of that style are more commonplace in some countries, but why would media celebrities wear one?
If people drive miles just for the media?
Wild Honey on Sun Mar 13, 2022 at 12:49 AM said:
“Would that be too irreverent?”
+++++++++++++
Ha! That’s funny!
Well, the way i see it, most church services are simply not good use of time. that way, at least, you’d be making the time productive.
or you could go on a hike….
——————-
“And the sermon totally set the stage for “men = leaders” and “leaders must guard against false doctrine.” (While I personally think EVERYONE should guard against false doctrine, but there I go being winsome, again.)”
+++++++++++
false doctrine….
so, just because he and his gurus say a doctrine is false therefore it is?
it’s cute that complementarianism isn’t considered a false doctrine.
it is so incredibly humiliating to be treated like a child who can’t figure things out and wouldn’t be able to handle something.
if they only knew i understand them better than they understand themselves, and have sorted out situation x long ago.
Ava–isn’t it amazing what is NOT in the Bible? My first smacked in the face experience with that was in an evangelism training class. You were supposed to memorize key scriptures and their “address.” We had trouble from the get go with a person who kept pointing out John 3:16 says “shall not perish” not “shall die and go to an endless fiery torment.” And then pointed out that “the wages of sin is death” not “the wages of sin is endless fiery torment.”
Now I know proponents of ECT have some verses of their own, but they were absolutely certain those two verses did not say death or perish, but fire and torment. One finally screamed “you just need to take these verses literally” which our English as a second language “troublemaker” screamed back “I AM TAKING THEM LITERALLY.”
You would have more fun by searching on that phrase in YouTube. Only people like me with a twisted sense of humour would recognize the quote 🙂
Wild Honey on Sun Mar 13, 2022 at 12:49 AM said:
“…Limits a woman’s submission to marriage and the church, and in the context of church is ok with a woman teaching or in leadership as long as she doesn’t have the title of “pastor.””
++++++++++++++
ah… so, do all the work without the classification (which puts someone in the bracket of higher wages and access to opportunities)
on the one hand, it’s totally unjust, and illegal.
(“but that doesn’t apply to us because we’re christian”.)
….yeah
on the other hand, it’s totally stupid. like john piper not allowing women to read scripture, pray, or preach from the hunk of wood called a podium.
“The woman may maketh a presentation but preacheth shall she not, nor a sermon shall it be, for the woman must remove herself from the assembly to another room from whence speaketh she into a device.
Thus shall the men be at once edified by her words and protected from her, for she is at once easily deceived and a deceitful temptress.
Yet shall we commend her to the work of caring for children and teaching them with all diligence, laboring cheerfully as unto the Lord, though prone to deception shall her lot and portion be.”
I’ve often said that just because it’s ‘in the Bible’ doesn’t mean that it’s gotta’ be extrapolated out of that back then and made to be applied in this here and now.
I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters up-front and on the table.
The rest of the stuff?
I pick and choose as I see fit.
I don’t see Paul’s letters as a kind of new ‘Torah’ which must be followed to the letter.
Ken F (aka Twees) on Sun Mar 13, 2022 at 11:32 AM said:
I think he goes to the lavatory first, and then he eats buttered scones for tea.
we really need to get this right.
“Get on with it!” (am I improperly applying a movie quote to an episode of the show?)
Ken F (aka Tweed) on Sun Mar 13, 2022 at 01:09 PM said:
not at all. and oh, I am enjoying this scene!
(and having to do a lot of research just to keep up, here)
Dear Michael Palin, John Cleese, Christopher Guest and Eugene Levy — please do CBMW.
please.
.
.
please.
Well played!
Hopefully, this won’t turn you into a newt
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Ah, she will get better..
Should I feel sorry for people who don’t understand this conversation?
newt, a mere fleshwound…. i’ll be alright.
brave, brave sir robin, on the other hand… i *almost* feel sorry for him.
I really think CBMW is a phallic cult.
In the words of the Prophet Monty Python:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRdur8GLBM
And stabbed photos of his enemies with a knife.
And talked about putting CP onto the laptop of Christianity Today’s editor.
And owned & ran a private hunting preserve where he literally shot deer to pieces in fits of rage during canned hunts.
Cynthia W.,
Bahaha!
When the sermon started this morning, husband asked that the peanut gallery restrain itself, so I promised to behave. Then HE started getting antsy and passing me notes not too long in.
So I guess the Holy Spirit was really moving today.
Wild Honey,
It sounds like you had fun, at least.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
LOL. The Lumberjack Song.
Good deal.
Yes, that was quickly clear from his sermon.
The sermons are such mixed bags for me. Some things make me cringe, some things make me say “Amen,” and others are either a stretch or lacking in nuance.
Next step is conversation with some old timers and elders, since he’s an interim. Then we’ll take it from there.
“Cute” is one word for it 🙂
I think you’re right.
Makes me wish a hunter from space would make a trophy of him.
Muff Potter,
Remember Paige Patterson of stained-glass window fame and Sean Feucht of Bethel?
They both have Mancaves festooned with taxidermied trophies from canned hunts.
I know a couple REAL hunters.
You want to see them explode, just say the two words “canned hunt”.
Priapus or Sacred Lingam.
Or all those fertility cults that surrounded ancient Judaism.
Who says it’s not a false doctrine? Who is the decider?
A popular theo-prof at our alma mater notes, “Everyone does their own theology.”
In any case, a local church is a group with a consensus.
We prefer and patronize the local consensus that considers complementarianism to be a false doctrine.
There. Fixed it.
Beyond the doctrine, we also patronize the consensus that considers complementarianism to be toxic or unhealthy for relationships in practice.
So there’s that.
Julie,
Given the obsession so many of this type have with sex and sexual sin, and appearance of things sexual, over so many other types of sin, you might be correct..
Christians are as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different direction.
And Christian Leaders take it to the Epstein’s Island level.
Julie on Sun Mar 13, 2022 at 05:27 PM said:
“I really think CBMW is a phallic cult.”
+++++++++++++++
the 501c3 and their theology of my dongle dangleth therefore I am? say it isn’t so!
…obsession with sex
…defining “biblical” manhood and womanhood, using the Bible, even though the Bible doesn’t go there (the Bible notes husband and wife and the marriage relationship, which are completely different from manhood and womanhood).
The issue appears to be arrested development, and a carryover from the continuum begun in middle school of figuring out who one is as a boy or girl.
As the boy or girl discovery unfolds, one more importantly normally moves on to discover who they are as a person, and hopefully as a child/person of God, part of God’s creation and the community of the human race.
It’s a beautiful human development continuum of discovery, unfolding as whom God has created us to be, as individuals and as part of the human community.
Unfortunately, the CBMW folks seem to be stuck on the Oh Wow I’m a Boy! or, Oh Wow I’m a Girl! step. …
So, Oh Wow Get Over It! and move on to be the person of God He created you to be, beyond your plumbing, outdoor plumbing or indoor plumbing.
CBMW would be appropriately termed: Council for the Personal Discovery of Outdoor Plumbing or Indoor Plumbing: CPDOPIP, or briefly COPIP, Council of Outdoor Plumbing & Indoor Plumbing. COPIP.
I’ve often wondered why this is so, and why fundagelicals have such strict anathema with regard to unauthorized sex.
Because it could lead to dancing…
KEN F – that was really funny! 🙂
Muff Potter on Mon Mar 14, 2022 at 12:09 PM said:
Well, if ‘you’ need to control and if ‘you’ need rules, this topic is the only one that goes to 11.
It’s sort of saying “Oh! Oh! Pick me! Pick me!”
elastigirl,
As you’ve observed many times (beyond say, the tenets of The Apostle’ Creed), it’s a silly religion.
Great insight.
Slightly off topic: can anyone remember the nickname Okrapod had for Owen S. from said COPIP?
It’s wonderful that this worked for you. I hope the health crisis resolved itself well.
Our family handled a health crisis somewhat differently. When I received a hard diagnosis and faced extensive treatment, we decided to keep everything else as normal as possible, and to let our young children make a few decisions, like what to do on my surgery days. They chose to go to school, and we saw that as a sign that they were benefiting from limiting disruptions during a time that was terrible for us. I’m still around, and they still suck at the STEM fields. 😉
You seem like wonderful parents. Life is challenging. God bless.
Our year of Bible focus wasn’t
to “handle the medical challenge”. But Life/Death made Eternity real.
Ava Aaronson,
🙂
Max,
We’ve sent down JMac, RaviZ and Todd B.:^(
“When an unclean spirit comes out, it roams the earth seeking another habitation” (Luke 11)
Vance Havner said something like “When you go to church, you need to leave glad, mad or sad, but you don’t need to leave unchanged.”
I’m afraid that most Christians who have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying are leaving American churches today more mad and sad, than glad.
Max,
Max, how do you apply that verse to this situation? I would value your insight about the whole chapter.