Regarding the office of “Youth Pastor” … IMO, the American church really needs to reconsider its youth ministry model. Putting inexperienced youth pastors/volunteers over youth is an accident waiting to happen … the Houston Chronicle reported hundreds of accidents that have already happened in SBC churches, not to mention the secret list of sex offenders that SBC executives have hidden for years.

You will not find youth pastors in the New Testament … what you will find, is sound instruction for senior saints to mentor young believers. I have spent the better part of a century doing church in America. I could count on one hand the youth pastors I have known that I thought were qualified for that role; most were simply baby-sitting with fun things to do, eating pizza, shallow Bible studies. Most didn’t have a spiritual bone in their bodies. I never understood why a fresh graduate out of seminary had to do his time first as a youth pastor or church planter, even though they were inexperienced in ministry (at least this is the Southern Baptist model). Yep, it’s time to take a serious look at the office of “Youth Pastor.”

I endorse Dee’s post.
During by 7th grade, in 1972-73, at my fundamentalist, Baptist school, (in a suberb of San Francisco) my teacher groomed me. He was a YEC, and took me, “one-on-one” “hunting for fossils” on “fossile ridge” in our community. I do not know why it did not get worse, and it is to long ago to remember details (despite my trying).
I know he was grooming me because two years later he was “perp walked” out of my school, never to be seen again.
But, I looked him up, (Obtained court records) and 10-15 years later he was convicted (pled guilty), in San Diego County, to disgusting abuse of under age boys, and spend many years as a guest of the California prison system. Note, while in prison he “publsihed” an article in the “Institute of creation research” journal…

Reflecting on him, he was definitly “eccentric”.. A women in my class, about 10 years ago, said she always thought he was “creepy”.. I showed Dee his “Megan Law” photo, and she said he looked “creepy”.
So, we really do need to listen to our children, and at least consider their “instincts”…

Max: You will not find youth pastors in the New Testament … what you will find, is sound instruction for senior saints to mentor young believers.

It’s a classic Mentor/Apprentice arrangement, like you find in the trades (construction, plumbing, etc).

Max: I could count on one hand the youth pastors I have known that I thought were qualified for that role; most were simply baby-sitting with fun things to do, eating pizza, shallow Bible studies.

i.e. They were high-ranking, titled Babysitters.
Keeping the kids from “getting in trouble” (especially Pelvically) was what was truly Important.

Headless Unicorn Guy: i.e. They were high-ranking, titled Babysitters.
Keeping the kids from “getting in trouble” (especially Pelvically) was what was truly Important.

And then it’s these “Youth Pastors” who end up becoming “Assistant Pastors” or “Lead Pastor” at some point. I’m thinking *this* particular pattern of “mentoring” has issues. But since I have exactly zero experience within the Church Industrial Complex, I have no idea how to change it. Except to suggest that maybe pastors ought to work service jobs for a few years.

Hundreds of accidents… my church youth group had mature leaders in their 40s, two married couples. It should have been a plus, except that one of the kids was selling drugs in the bathroom. Then, we had a summer outing to a river my mom wouldn’t let me attend. Something about supervision, she said. I was not happy. That night we got the call that one of the kids drowned in the river. He couldn’t swim, but the adults said it was okay for him to swing out on the rope and jump into the water. The current took him away and the local authorities had to dredge the river for his body. Unfortunately, That was the complete end of any youth group activity for me.

And don’t think for an instant that there are not mainline churches that don’t address pedophiles in the church. My old parish, Grace Episcopal Alexandria (gracealex.org) has a pedophile who is still welcome to attend.

Rector Bob Malm’s solution? “I’m rude to him when he attends.”

How reassuring.

THANK YOU so much for this, Dee.

It’s sad that these protective measures are even needed in church (but then again, that’s like saying it’s sad that we even live in a fallen world, and that the doctrine of total depravity applies to Christians as much as those “in the world”).

What’s even more tragic is avoiding knowledge & implementation of these protective measures.

Far more tragic that even that, is the retraumatization churches put survivors through, when their accounts aren’t believed, and worse, when the victims are painted as villains. This is taking the Lord’s name in vain, and it is vile.

After leaving Park Street Church in September 2017, I tried to get the Council of a church I was visiting to be interested in going through GRACE’s Safety Certification program.

I asked if they had abuse protection policies. They said, yeah somewhere, but we haven’t really referred to them in awhile. Then I mentioned one of the protective measures you list here as best current practices: 2 adults taking a young child to the bathroom, because you never know if one could be a molester.

The Council stared at me like I was some kind of crazy alien. Then they told me they didn’t have the $ for GRACE’s Safety Certification because of their building renovation.

I get it, church buildings need upkeep and maintenance. I’m a homeowner. But 1) they actually had the $ for GRACE Safety Certification and 2) I’ve given $ to building renovations at Christian institutions before, only to find out they were sloppy on abuse. And ultimately, where’s the real temple where the Holy Spirit abides??

The only communication I received from that small church after I’d visited for a year and then left, was a letter asking me to donate to their building fund.

Um, that would be a no.

Dragonlight,

I get where you’re coming from, but as a mental health provider, surely you must realize that pedophilia is itself a mental disorder in the DSM.

Max: ministry model.

There are NT models.

Evangelism seems to be gender neutral.

Discipleship seems to be older men discipling younger men, and older women discipling younger women. Gender specific. Titus.

Fellowship or collaborative service together seems to be gender neutral with mature chaste men and women working together for a common project in a morally positive environment.

In all cases, those serving would be mature, chaste, moral, and obedient to God. The vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience come to mind.

Cute, cool, chic, and entertaining do not come to mind.

I don’t know anything about the psychology of abusers. But I do know that “the ministry” (of all denoms and doctrines) is often a magnet for men who desire to have a largely unaccountable career. A small amount of charisma and (as Max often says) a gift of gab and a willingness to publicly parrot well worn doctrinal paths is all that is required for most men to become “senior pastors”. In some cases, they are “overseen” by a group of volunteer, barely qualified “leaders” who are chosen by the very person they “oversee”. If mapped out structurally, the church is an embarassment of unaccountability. That large numbers of these unaccountable, unsupervised “ministers” end up to be abusers or molesters should not be a surprise.

Muff Potter: your first stop should be Law Enforcement, not the pastor, not the elders, not the deacons.

Even upon Pain of Eternal Hell from the Godly who hold the Keys?

Michael in UK: Theology of the body is NOT good morality,

I think we have different definitions for “Theology of the Body”.
This is what I associate the term with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_the_Body

To me (like Humanism when it began as a Christian movement against Docetism), it provides a pull back to restore balance from the tendency to become “So SPIRITUAL you Cease to be Real. God may live in the Real World, but that’s not Spiritual Enough for you.”

Muslin fka Dee Holmes: Except to suggest that maybe pastors ought to work service jobs for a few years.

In my church (RCC) that is called “Second Vocation”.

The Lead Pastor where I took RCIA catechism spent four years in the Navy during WW2 and a couple years as a civilian before entering seminary. The Permanent Deacon at that parish was a building contractor (“like Our Lord and St Joseph, except I’m Union and they weren’t”)

A Parochial Vicar (temp Pastor) a couple years ago at my current parish came across the border from Mexico as a kid, got legalized during the Reagan years, and spent over 10 years in construction before he entered Seminary. Said that when he entered Seminary he knew maybe three dozen words in English — all of them cusswords. Blue collar all the way, and his English was better than our Vietnamese-language Assistant Pastor. (Trilingual parish — English, Spanish, and Viet.)

Dragonlight,

my narcissist brother in law loves, absolutely loves, hurting people. (with words & passive aggressive actions.) he relishes it. he loves to see how much he can get away with. all utterly deliberate and meticulously calculated.

Headless Unicorn Guy: In my church (RCC) that is called “Second Vocation”.

In SBC life, it’s called “Bivocational” … there are many bivocational pastors at small and/or rural Southern Baptist churches across America … most SBC churches have less than 200 members and can’t support a full time pastor’s salary/benefits. It’s not uncommon for a pastor at those churches to work a full-time job in addition to his pastor’s position.

Dragonlight: As a licensed professional counselor who has counseled abuse survivors for 10+ years, I humbly disagree. Ultimately, abusers abuse because they want to and they can. Most people with psychiatric diagnoses never choose to abuse

Psychiatric diagnoses vary quite a bit. Certain ones are associated with abusive behaviors; they aren’t used often because treatment isn’t very effective.

I agree with you that most people with mental health diagnoses do not abuse others.

researcher: Many parents, for some reason (culture, religion, because they themselves don’t know or weren’t taught, etc.), don’t discuss sex or the parts of the body relating to sex, etc., or don’t teach their children anything about sex.

Ever heard of Christian Purity Culture?

And schools (whether public or private) aren’t consistent in what they teach in sex education….if they teach sex education at all.

Out of Fear of the Christians coming to get them — remember, Taking Back America starts at the local School Board level. “Give me your children for six years and I Will Make Them Mine; you will pass away, but they will remain Mine” works both ways.

Some parents home-school their children….some of these parents fall into the first category I mentioned, and some parents fall into the second category I mentioned.

Like I said above, “Give me your children…and they will remain Mine” works both ways.

Question: If a child or children aren’t taught sex education and / or don’t learn the proper names for ALL the parts of the body, then how are they to understand and / or describe sexual abuse when it happens to them?

Feature, not Bug.

Linn: My church recently came up with what I consider a robust approach to child abuse.

Sounds like a great protocol! That ought to scare the devil out of your church!

Linn: My church recently came up with what I consider a robust approach to child abuse.

Wonderful contrast to churches sweeping it all under the church rug.

Linn,

It’s about time!
Good on your church Linn!
Too many other churches insist upon living in a kind of La-la-land where sex-abuse is not sposeta’ happen on ‘their grounds’.

Ted,

Neecha (Nietzsche) said this world is the will to power, and nothing besides.

Ted,

Much agreement here Ted.
Power is the most addictive drug in the universe.

Ava Aaronson: Too much down time, alone time, me time, or coffeeshop time, perhaps?

A stop at any coffee shop in my area on a weekday and you’ll find a NeoCal “lead pastor” or two. They don’t have time to visit the sick or pray with folks in nursing homes, but they have plenty of time to tweet their lives away with the dudebros or borrow a sermon from the internet for next Sunday. Or perhaps their screen time is more sinister.

Max: They don’t have time to visit the sick or pray with folks in nursing homes, but they have plenty of time to tweet their lives away with the dudebros or borrow a sermon from the internet for next Sunday.

This really galls me too.
What’s even more galling is that the pew serfs still bankroll these jokers.

Muff Potter: the pew serfs still bankroll these jokers

As long as the pulpit gives them what they want, pew sitters will finance just about anything under the term “church.” We read about it daily on TWW. It’s an ungodly alliance.

“So God gave them what they wanted, but sent leanness to their souls” (Psalm 106:15)

Ava Aaronson: Who is that guy that used to catch the pedophile pastors … Chris Hansen?

Actually, Pedos in general.
Only clergy type To Catch a Predator caught was a Rabbi, early in their run.
Who achieved YouTube immortality by being the only one to physically attack the camera crew at the Big Reveal. (As well as previously copping an “I’m The One in Control, I Demand to know Who You Are” attitude.)

As one of the YouTube videos put it, “You can just see this guy’s brain melting.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gyd5HAvN0
Just go to YouTube and search on “rabbi to catch a predator meltdown”. He’s the first four search hits.

And there’s some other “Where are they now” followup videos. His congregation fired him as soon as the news got out — Unlike Spirit-filled Christians, they had a BIG problem with their Rabbi cruising for same-sex jail bait. TCAP turned their chat logs and video over to the cops, and the guy got 5-7 years. Also unlike Christians, he never held a clergy position again.

Ava Aaronson: I also believe that the Holy Spirit has wisdom available to Christians even beyond what the professionals tell us. Not woo-hoo pseudo science but wisdom and warnings from God. Perhaps situational wisdom and awareness?

“He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.” (Revelation 2:7)

researcher,

Secular leaders (at one time) probably had a vague (fallback) idea of using children’s private affairs such as religion and sex lives for social agitation.

But they had relatively little chance as long as prominent and influential christians kept faith with Holy Spirit evangelisation and living. And didn’t substitute material means (work of the flesh).

Carl Henry and John Stott, looking for cheap point scoring, were sadly typical lynchpins in the swing.

Ted: Nietzsche also said “the Superman is the meaning of the earth,” probably the same idea. Although he himself was no superman, rather quiet and polite, until he picked up a pen.

The pre-Onine version of a Net Drunk?

dee,

My original post attempted, perhaps poorly, to expand on Dee’s statement about a very complex question: Why do chIld sex abusers abuse?
Simply having a “profound, lifelong psychiatric disorder” (Dee’s words) does not a child sex abuser make. First, it is important to specify what type of disorder(s), so as not to stigmatize all who have psychiatric disorders. Some psychiatric disorders make people more likely to be VICTIMS of sex abuse, not perpetrators.
Secondly, a pedophilic disorder, and it’s attendant impulses, does not automatically result in child abuse behavior. The impulse must be accompanied by volition (choice to act) and opportunity (vulnerable target). (This is what I meant by “they want to and they can.”) As the article Dee referenced states, “Only about 50% of all individuals who do sexually abuse children are pedophilic, and not every pedophilic individual actually has abused children.” I applaud Dee for warning us about faith communities whose policies and procedures (or lack thereof) make our children into vulnerable targets for those who, ultimately, choose to abuse. It is possible to reduce children’s vulnerability, but it requires, among other things, a willingness to face reality and institute often counter-cultural safeguards. (Just ask me how popular I am for not allowing my kid to attend group sleepovers.)
Ted,