This is really about public safety.
It is why we have police, courts and prisons. ANY church, or church leader that thinks he/she can handle it “internally” needs to be thrown out…. Just like we do not allow, or at least not “suppose” to allow commercial pilots with substance abuse problems, we should not allow “spiritual leaders” with a hint of pedo instincts.. among other illegal tendencies….
it is just that simple…

From the main article up-top:
“For the newbie, did you know that some of the Executive Committee of the SBC (the workhorse of the denomination) kept a secret list of pastors who had abused children?”

Last I heard, it’s a FELONY to conceal a crime.
Valid question:
How does the SBC get away with this?

Yes, Jonathan Elwing had his church on Tom Ascol’s ‘Founders Friendly’ list:

https://web.archive.org/web/20240622120507/https://church.founders.org/church/palm-view-first-baptist/

“Palm View First Baptist…Pastor Name: Jonathan Elwing”

[Internet Archive, since the page on Ascol’s ‘Founders’ website was scrubbed after the arrest, now it’s “404, OOPS! THAT PAGE CAN’T BE FOUND”]

Why can’t an independent group or person put together a database and share it publicly?

There was just a case in Texas where a former Youth Pastor, Luke Cummingham, from Lubbock, had transferred from a Granbury church where there may had been potential victims. Granbury said they notified the police and the Lubbock Church, but Lubbock said they didn’t know anything about it. Want to molest kids? Become a Youth Pastor!

Yes, Jonathan Elwing had been a Youth Pastor at other churches, also was a church youth camp director. His church has a private Christian school. And he’s been a foster parent!

Timothy Pigg of the Conservative Baptist Network of Southern Baptists posted this announcement:

https://www.conservativebaptistnetwork.com/post/note-from-network-director

“Tonight, I learned that Jonathan Elwing from Palm View Baptist Church has been arrested on four counts of possession of [CSA] images…Jonathan was part of our Florida State Chapter leadership. Upon learning of this news, he was immediately removed from the Network. I ask that you pray for the Palm View Baptist Church and Jonathan’s family. By His grace, Dr. Timothy Pigg”

Besides being all atwitter about his ‘concern’ about talk of an SBC database of abusers, @jonathanelwing in his last tweet on June 3 was pushing for 9Marksist Mike Law’s amendment to the SBC Constitution (against women pastors).

“If biblical church polity and authority were better appreciated and exercised”

Authority, huh?

What an unsurprising sentence.

With these sorts of fake “Christian” leaders, it’s always about having the power to boss other people around.

They don’t even bother to conceal their lust for power over others.

Notice how they manipulatively hide behind the word “biblical”, with the intention of implying that anyone who disagrees with them is not “biblical.”

Nonsense of course. If anyone is unbiblical, it’s these tin-pot dictator pastors.

With regard to their use of the word “polity”, etc:

They cloak their power-hungry desires in intellectual-sounding verbiage, presumably in the hope that all the little people will say “wow, that sounds really smart and impressive”, and submit instead of questioning the motives of these manipulative charlatans.

AF,

“Like Gateway, the MALE Leadership of the SBC is disgusting.”
+++++++++++++++++

yes.

and the presumption of thinking God ordains discrimination against and subjugation of females is disgusting.
.
.
but i’m simply tired of male leaders. especially christian ones.

i perused some content from the book “The 48 Laws Of Power” by someone named Robert Greene (“the definitive manual for anyone interested in gaining, observing, or defending against ultimate control.”)

one law mentioned that people get tired of someone in the limelight (thus the need to constantly adapt if not reinvent yourself)

aside from the foolishness of homogeneity & insularity, especially in leading people / in organizations where people are the product,

i’m plainly sick of the full frontal assault of exclusively men’s faces, men’s voices, men’s perspective, men’s approach in church and as the public face of my religion in representing me.
.
.
i like men. i love men. you just don’t inherently represent me or how i see things. nor could you possibly.

AF,

At this point, we know that there was a database the lawyer for the Executive Committee was keeping privately. That information has been released to the public and is no longer a secret.

I think the top argument for an official database is so churches searching for pastors can use it as a step in their background checking process. Personally, I’m unsure it would work effectively. We’ve seen enough times that churches who know about crimes pastors committed still hire them and ignore their past crimes.

I think the best argument for making one is that the EC promised they would with their Caring Well campaign. They haven’t fulfilled a lot of promises they made for that. It was empty words trying to distract people for a little while longer.

But all this is why I am no longer and will never be a Southern Baptist again. Their integrity has been in question in so many ways that nobody should trust them.

Jerome: “a past failure, following which he had undergone restoration with his church”:

“Past Failure(TM)” as in “Live Boy or Dead Woman”?

MacDonald promptly shifted to independent work as a ‘church consultant’, which he has been doing ever since. (He had been employed by the Florida Baptist Convention before going to IMB).

Just like some Government Official taking retirement as a Lobbyist/Consultant.

Jerome: [Internet Archive, since the page on Ascol’s ‘Founders’ website was scrubbed after the arrest, now it’s “404, OOPS! THAT PAGE CAN’T BE FOUND”]

It NEVER existed, Comrades.
To remember anything else is DOUBLEPLUSCRIMETHINK!

Jerome: disgraced ‘church consultant’ Mark MacDonald in 2022:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220422124420/https://twitter.com/markmac1023/status/1517484254757855232

And another thing. Beware of pastors with spiky hairdos. I thought that went out with Driscoll!

ishy: Their integrity has been in question in so many ways that nobody should trust them.

But here’s the deal … I think most Southern Baptist pewsitters wouldn’t trust these leaders either ‘if’ they only knew what went on in SBC ivory towers … but since they don’t, they continue to bankroll them. SBC has 47,000 churches; most congregations have been kept in the dark on SBC shenanigans in the highest places. So the beat goes on and the gravy train keeps moving. I dare say that if you stopped the average Southern Baptist in the parking lot after church and unloaded this stuff on them, they would look at you like raccoons caught in car headlights.

Jerome: Besides being all atwitter about his ‘concern’ about talk of an SBC database of abusers, @jonathanelwing in his last tweet on June 3 was pushing for 9Marksist Mike Law’s amendment to the SBC Constitution (against women pastors).

No doubt, a faithful New Calvinist … put them women in their place, while doing god-awful things on the internet. The American church is far too easy for these perverts to hide … all the while fooling their congregations … “I can’t believe it! He sure could preach!”, etc.

Jerome: Jonathan Elwing had been a Youth Pastor at other churches, also was a church youth camp director. His church has a private Christian school. And he’s been a foster parent!

Scary stuff. There’s more to this story.

Jeffrey Chalmers,

Here, here!

ishy: But all this is why I am no longer and will never be a Southern Baptist again. Their integrity has been in question in so many ways that nobody should trust them.

C’mon over to Lutheranism.
There’s two Synods to choose from, LCMS (conservative), and ELCA (liberal).
I’m in the liberal (ELCA) one.
No alpha-male strongman in the pulpit, and no agenda.
Just old liturgy.
Coffee and donuts with great people afterwards.

CRIMINALS these guys need to do some hard time. I heard of what goes on in prisons…too bad so sad……

from the quoted section by the Founders

“But when such sins and/or crimes occur, both the victims and perpetrators will be better loved and cared for than would otherwise be the case.”

And the evidence for this would be what exactly? What is their definition of “better loved and cared for?” How is justice defined and sought? What is the proposed process? What are the credentials and professional training of those involved? How will power differentials between victims and perpetrators be managed to protect those who lack power? And what is the line of accountability to the legal process?

“Authority and polity” (did Jesus uses those phrases?) are part of the power that they seek. In contrast, Jesus modeled humility and compassion.

Susan,

That’s what they promised with Caring Well, which was a big deal for a few months, then rose sharply in cost and everything fell silent about it.

It’s all lies.

Todd Wilhelm: It’s amazing how many grifters make a living off of the giving units in the pews.

If you can’t make it as a preacher for some reason or another, become a church consultant, a Christian counselor, or write a book! There are lots of opportunities to make a buck in the Christian Industrial Complex.

Ed. Note:I still remember our dinner together so many years ago.

I am a member of an SBC-affiliated church and have been involved in exposing some of these cases since as early as 2006, though I am sure there were many before then. I have never harbored hatred in my life, but that is beginning to change as these individuals, motivated by political gain, inflict further harm on those who have suffered rape within our churches. They act as enablers, and I believe more will be revealed with additional arrests. I do hope for the dissolution of the SBC if this is their approach or lack thereof in addressing this heinous crime that has persisted in churches. My anger is so profound that I can no longer bear to read or listen to them.

Max: Jerome: Jonathan Elwing posing with disgraced ‘church consultant’ Mark MacDonald

Birds of a feather flock together.

Godly Pervs say one to another:
“Perv unto Perv o’er the world is Brother!”

I’m back. Why did I come back?
I couldn’t read all of this.

I think I will throw up now.

To think that people are out there who are as (or more) addicted to child porn as I am to chocolate.

That’s terrifying.

Jesus come quickly!!

in the past, Elwing himself has spoken out against the creation of the database, saying in a February 2023 social media post that it would “be the end of the SBC.”

“the end of the SBC”…. Ha!
This leads me to assume that some of these guys believe that standing back and allowing abuse to happen, and then protecting sexual abusers is part of the sanctified secret core identity of the male controlled SBC.
(I fear that what I just said is true.)

It must be secret, because I was a member of an SBC church for 40 years, and I never knew.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): sanctified secret core identity of the male controlled SBC … It must be secret, because I was a member of an SBC church for 40 years, and I never knew

You and millions of other faithful church-going tithe-paying Southern Baptists. Perhaps it’s time to reveal this rotten core with eye-opening TWW inserts in Sunday bulletins across all 47,000 SBC churches!

N Johnson: He made child porn …

… while preaching God’s Word. I doubt that he will get a standing ovation at the State penitentiary; even the most hardened criminals don’t like crimes against children and hypocritical preachers.

Background checks do not prevent abuse. I supported, affirmed and participated with the SBC for over a decade, and I feel dirty. It makes me physically ill that this man was speaking from a tip top leadership position about preventing abuse of children while feasting on the abuse of children. The audacity of trying to block a database that he himself belongs on. These perpetrators and anyone that enables them are criminals and an abomination. Excellent journalistic work WBW, thankful for your courage to refuse to submit to or be silent about corruption. Here’s to the next reformation, hopefully the last!

Max: SBC is going to eventually trip big time over this. Payday someday.

Indeedy!
They’ve danced to the music for quite some time now.
And the piper has to be paid.

Jonathan Elwing’s previous pastorate was First Baptist Islamorada:

https://flbaptist.org/islamorada-church-on-mission-at-home-and-abroad/

The late Ernest Reisinger, Tom Ascol’s mentor and co-founder of Southern Baptist Founders ‘Ministries’, was pastor of First Baptist Islamorada in the 1970s.

sd: Background checks do not prevent abuse.

Boundaries prevent abuse.

Parents establish boundaries around and for their children. This is love, aka sound parenting.

Churches should be doing the same. This would be love and healthy church engagement.

Where a breach of boundaries occurs, public records then prevent FURTHER abuse. This is where the database kicks in.

Where there are LE and DOJ records, the damage is done. Public records can and are meant to prevent MORE damage.

Churches are way behind, in the Dark Ages on this. Churches are dangerous places for the vulnerable.

The SBC Paul Pressler Paige Patterson Leadership conspiracy and policy machine speaks volumes to the danger and evil of churches. The Spotlight exposure of LE, the DOJ, politicians, business, and church leaders revealed a similar machine. It’s all organized and orchestrated.

The evil machines keep operating until courage intervenes.

In the Robert Morris case, victim witness-with-intel Cindy told Wade and Rachelle, who passed along Dee Parson’s name, who published the story on TWW, her blog.

RM has built up a machine around his desire for money and vice. Decades later comes the intervention.

Churches are way behind, in the Dark Ages, on addressing the plundering of the vulnerable within their communities.

There are myths that keep the machine going, such as: the Good Ole Days and My Preacher is a Good Guy, and Most Preachers are Good Guys ‘cuz I’ve been around for decades so “I know”. Guess what, it’s not about “you”, particularly if you are of the Ruling Demographic (white male). The Good Ole Days of Good Ole Boys is a Myth. The intel coming out now goes back decades with leadership brohood looking the other way every time a victim tried to warn. There’s lots of dirt under the church rugs. If the leader guy wasn’t doing dirty, he was certainly covering up dirt for his buds and for the Org. Good Ole Boys.

Jesus’s Communion event was at a table, only men present. No altar, no podium, no women.

Is church Communion today around a table with women present at the table, not under the table? That would be a start to better intel in churches, with hopefully improved boundaries, less damage control, but more damage prevention.

Inclusivity, boundaries, wisely listening, honoring good intel, public records, databases, and working with LE, the DOJ, and academic researchers… would all contribute to bringing church out of the Dark Ages.

Light and bright Spotlights are the key. It takes humility to admit being wrong about church and church leaders; it takes courage to step forward out of the myth and masses.

Most men are not abusers, but most abusers are men.

In at least one global culture I know of, the community’s children are always in the presence of and/or in view of an adult female. This helps prevent child abuse.

SBC male leaders just enshrined the marginalization of female church members.

It can only get worse.

Eyewitness: Instead, the concern is first for the perp and his family

Remember Boz t?
In all his years as a prosecutor specializing in those cases, he NEVER saw a church take the side of the underage victim. NEVER.

Always “RALLY ROUND THE HOLY PEDO, BOYZ! GAWD SAITH!!!”
Every. Single. Time.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): in the past, Elwing himself has spoken out against the creation of the database, saying in a February 2023 social media post that it would “be the end of the SBC.”

“the end of the SBC”….

“YOU DISHONOR ME!”
“No. You have Dishonored yourself.”
— Game of Thrones

Ava Aaronson,

Our family came away from the SBC church system two years ago. Turns out curating our life around church life to protect children from the horrible evils of the world was our mistake as parents as we are now recovering from abuse that went on right before our eyes but we were blind to see it, refused to believe it could happen. In leaving we have lost friends, family, an entire community really. It has been the hardest thing I have ever walked through, and I’ve been through kind of a lot. No dysfunction has compared to church dysfunction. I have an unquenchable fire in my bones for justice and accepting there will be no justice for so many is devastating. Thank you for the thoughtful response, I do agree.

Oops,

Jerome: Joel Beeke’s Presbyterian microdenomination has a congregation meeting at Elwing’s church on Sunday afternoons

Oops, his is a Reformed church microdenomination rather than one of the many Presbyterian ones.

nmgirl: . Why would anyone continually give money to a man with a reported $100 million net worth?

Because he’s a tribal witch doctor, and the tribe does what he tells them to.

Max,

So true Max. One of my long term friends is at a church that was taken over by the neo-calvinists The church was even highlighted here on TWW as a model takeover by a MacArthur disciple. Nearly ten years later my friend was surprised to learn the church had joined the SBC and was just as surprised to discover women were no longer allowed to even read scripture from the pulpit. She just never paid attention. How this can be I have no idea. I saw it from week one when the new pastor showed up.
It is truly sad peoples inability to recognize what’s happening right in front of them.

nmgirl: I know Gateway is located in a wealthy area but not every pew-peon is rich. Why would anyone continually give money to a man with a reported $100 million net worth?

He taught them that they would be cursed if they didn’t bring in their tithe to the Gateway “storehouse” … that you can’t be blessed unless you tithe; that you’re under a curse. Like most prosperity preachers, he cherry-picked a few Bible verses to manipulate pewsitters into bankrolling his “blessed life.”

Here’s a glimpse at what he taught:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP0uFa4tj58

ishy: Which means that they don’t really believe what they preach. They use religion as a tool to reinforce their power and financial stability while telling people to fall in line for “God”.

Precisely. This especially applies to Calvinism, which in my view is simply a power structure with a religious veneer.

I can imagine the Calvinists sitting around centuries ago trying to decide how to control others.

“Should we create a big club?”

“Nah, everyone would leave when we start bossing them around.”

“What about a corporation?”

“No, everyone would quit due to how we will treat them.”

“What about a government?”

“Problematic, the people would rebel and overthrow us.”

“Well, how about a religion then? If we get people to believe that God says we are the bosses, then everyone will submit.”

“You’re a genius, let’s do it!”

“These two groups believe they will change the SBC and, in so doing, have no need for sexual abuse reform because their polity and purity will make such abuse unthinkable”

Horse pucky. The SBC has had about 20 years to figure out how to address sex abuse internally. Ask Christa Brown how that’s going.

Fox guarding henhouse, to chicken: No, really, this time will be different *licks lips*

nmgirl:
Max,

And that goes right back to oral roberts. Remember 700 ft jesus?

There was a novelty song about that which never made it online. Parody of Bon Jovi’s “You Give Love a Bad Name” called “You Give God a Bad Name”. Only part of it I remember is:

“Your son Oral Junior
Wants to be rich like you —
Is he gonna see
a 900-foot Jesus too?”

And don’t forget the Oral Roberts Deathwatch, where Oral barricaded himself in his Prayer Tower claiming that if you didn’t send enough money, “God Would Call Me Home(TM)”. Doonesbury had a field day with that one, treating it like a hostage/ransom situation — “Day 23 of the Oral Roberts Deathwatch — God just issued a new list of Demands!” “Day 31 — God demands still more money or Oral gets offed!”

nmgirl: It reminds me of all the old ladies who would send their social security to oral roberts to buy their way into heaven.

When coin in Oral’s coffer rings,
Then yous soul to Heaven springs?

Headless Unicorn Guy,

P.S.
“OO! EE! OO! AH! AH!
TING! TANG! WALLA WALLA BING-BANG!
OO! EE! OO! AH! AH!
TING-TANG WALLA-WALLA BING-BANG!”
— (pre-Chipmunk) David Seville, 1958

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwGwl-ktuNA

Commenter23: Which explains why these “Christian” leaders also fanatically support other supremacist ideologies such as zionism. Robert Morris and Mike Bickle come to mind.

Let’s be honest here and call them what they are.
They’re fascists plain and simple.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Isn’t Evil the side most obsessed with Purity?>/b>

Purity is a good thing. God tells us in the Bible to try our best to be sexually pure, and to avoid impure thoughts, and to be pure in heart and spirit, for instance.

We should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We should avoid the temptation to become nihilistic, the temptation to stop caring about traditional Christian values.

Just because the corrupt corporate Christianity Inc charlatans claim to care about purity, doesn’t mean that purity is a bad thing.

They claim to care about women and children too, and of course we see how dishonest and hypocritical most of the ambitious corporate pastors are.

But we shouldn’t allow their hypocrisy to make us jaded or cause us to stop caring about the things that matter.

God says that purity is a good thing.

While we are forgiven by Jesus when we become impure, we should try our best to remain pure.

Paul mentions the importance of purity in Philippians 4:4-8.

A few other verses that emphasize the importance of purity are (from a quick google search) Hebrews 13:4, James 1:27, 1 Timothy 4:12, 1 Timothy 5:22, Matthew 5:8, and Psalms 51:10.

God says that purity is a good thing.

We shouldn’t be dismissive of the importance of purity just because the sanctimonious hypocritical pastors claim to be the arbiters of purity.

The corporate Christianity Inc pastors are pharisaical hypocrites.

We shouldn’t let their hypocrisy and bad behavior cause us to turn against the things that God says are good.

The pharisee-like pastors don’t have a monopoly on purity nor a monopoly on the other good things that God created.

These good things belong to all Christians. God created concepts such as purity for everyone.

Cynthia W.: do they genuinely think that women can’t abuse children or that men can’t abuse children in the presence of a woman?

My original post was referring to child SEXUAL abuse specifically. Here are references:
> 90% of rapes and sexual assaults are perpetrated by one offender. http://www.rainn.org
> In 2021, the US Sentencing Commission reported that 93.6% of sexual abuse offenders were men. http://www.ussc.gov
> An estimated 80-90% of [CSA] offenders are male. http://www.raace.org
> In 88% of the sexual abuse claims that CPS substantiates or finds supporting evidence of, the perpetrator is male. http://www.rainn.org

Dragonlight,

Okay, thanks.

Max: Indeed!You will find no examples in the New Testament of a church rallying to the side of abusers, restoring pastors who failed morally, protecting and concealing the sins of church leaders, passing bad-boys through the ranks.Ministering to victims should always be the objective of a Christian people.

I see from the NT epistles is that the sins of elders are to be publicly called out as a warning to others. It says nothing about the sins of non-elders being called out in public.

Commenter23,

“Purity is a good thing. God tells us in the Bible to try our best to be sexually pure, and to avoid impure thoughts, and to be pure in heart and spirit, for instance…

We should avoid the temptation to become nihilistic, the temptation to stop caring about traditional Christian values.

Just because the corrupt corporate Christianity Inc charlatans claim to care about purity, doesn’t mean that purity is a bad thing…

But we shouldn’t allow their hypocrisy to make us jaded or cause us to stop caring about the things that matter.
+++++++++++++++++++++

no real disagreement. but some thoughts in response.

christian purity is a moving target.

whenever i’ve entered a new and different christian environment, i always get uncomfortable & petty feedback that i’m doing things wrong (things that were no issue in my previous christian environment).

for example, in the last place I found out that I shouldn’t wear tank tops even in 100 degree plus heat, i shouldn’t use sarcastic humor, and i should always wait until the man/men initiate the transition in any activity. (among many other shoulds and shouldn’ts)

these things i was innocently doing were considered expressions of lack of pure thoughts, heart and spirit.

the so-called more pure way of doing things was dumb, impractical, and ensured that things would be done poorly with poor results.

quite frankly, having to change so much so as not to be looked down on depending on the christian cultural outpost is exhausting, frustrating, & insulting.

christian purity is something christians consider a distinctive that sets them apart from the world (outsiders, the out-group). like an elitist trademark.

however, i’ve noticed it’s what people whom christians belittle and disparage as ‘the world’ are already doing.

they’re just not preoccupied with it — it’s normal for them.

it’s normal for them to be kind, generous, honest and truthful, have integrity…

i’ve said many times that my atheist, agnostic, muslim, buddhist, and hindu friends and family have stellar character & integrity without really trying, superior to most christians i’ve known.

i wrestle with many of the truth claims that christian culture generates in marketing and presenting its brand.

because too many of them can’t be justified.

(i don’t put Jesus’ birth, life, death, resurrection in this category. i have faith for that.

i just don’t have faith for the littany of rules christian culture has been stacking up for many years. and i have zero faith, let alone respect, for petty moving goalposts)

Nick Bulbeck

P.S. I don’t consider myself evangelical these days, but I spent long enough serving zealously in those ranks that I can’t simply pretend I carry no responsibility. Hence the “our” [plural] in the first sentence there.

Commenter23: Which explains why these “Christian” leaders also fanatically support other supremacist ideologies such as zionism. Robert Morris and Mike Bickle come to mind.

Christian Zionism (AKA Anti-Semitic Zionism) has its own unique dynamic.
All having to do with End Times Prophecy.
Goes like this:

1) Israel is In The Land, Fulfilling Prophecy and becoming the End Times Countdown Clock/Tripwire for Armageddon. (tick tick tick tick tick…)

2) So to further fulfill Prophecy, Israel Can Do No Wrong; every act of theirs is a Fulfillment. (tick tick tick tick tick…)

3) And this will trigger Armageddon and the Seven-Year Checklist (“It’s Prophesied! It’s Prophesied!”) where God gets to Pour Out His Wrath upon all those Sinners. AFTER beaming up his Saints (guess who?) into an angel-catered Superbowl Suite to watch it all as the Ultimate Spectator Sport.

4) Including the destruction of those Christ-Killing Jews; now that the Tribulation and Armageddon is underway, God doesn’t need them any more.

5) And then God’s TRUE Supremacists (guess who?) are given their Entitlement.

Dear Lord, it’s even worse than I realized. He himself was abusing a toddler in some of the images.
God is cleaning house.
Expose them all.
The American church needs to rethink everything. No more pulpiteers, no more prosperity gospel, no more propping up schmucks just because they’re good on stage, no more doctrine without life. Time for humility, repentance, and Jesus.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Isn’t that the Heresy of Clericalism?

Even my church (RCC), the first to go into that trip, found it to be a dead end.

That’s only because they were not smart enough to do it. “We will succeed this time where others have failed.” Same excuse for the continuing attempts to implement various shades of Communism, Marxism, Central Planning, and Socialism.