Some of the elders and people will inevitably leave. They will leave out of conscience about the entire situation and for all intents and purposes this would signal a church “split”. I have seen this at my own churches a couple times and typically the people leaving I agree with about the matter at hand. After sticking around a few months I also left.

However, the people that leave are often the very people that could lead the church through the “time of lament” which is certainly necessary. When good people believe they are in the minority, or if they are not given a voice, then evil wins. I am not sure how much of this is due to a lack of courage on the part of the people leaving, that could be part of it. Perhaps a lot of people are tired or too busy to rough it out. In my case I was already busy and I did not see it as my job. In hindsight, shame on me. I was just a member but perhaps I should have cared more and made the time.

I agree with everything you are saying Dee. There are probably good people there and God can use them if they are tenacious enough and love their church family. Otherwise the politicians on the payroll win and they will be left with a smaller church of apathetic lackeys. I am only speaking from a couple of my life’s experiences and how they left me wiser.

While I do appreciate your role in bringing this entire situation to light and believe you were the hand of God in doing so, a portion of your post seems very cynically speculative, and without real fact to back up what your are stating (example “Never assume that Mr. Willbanks just “spoke from his heart” without having that heart vetted by an attorney. I believe that everything he said was looked over and approved by the attorney(s) that are paid for by the church. He carefully read his approved statement. Yes, churches have attorneys.”) I don’t believe this is helpful an hurts the victims of abuse rather than helps them. I would encourage not to do that and it just makes hurt people more cynical and quite possibly spreads mis-information. Maybe some of it will turn out to be true, but please wait until that is more firm.

I certainly agree with your list of ridiculous things people said on your blog. I am sorry that folks see things that way. On the topic of how the service should have been run in your view, believe me, the entire week was full of lamenting and mourning by many in the church, and that continues.

Do know that that many are in a wait-and-see state for more actual facts as opposed to guesswork. Yes, this site has provided some good and much needed facts, but also mixed in with too much speculation as previously mentioned.

Former Shady Grove Church/Current Gateway Member.

While I agree with a lot of what you wrote, I keep seeing a lot of people saying they should’ve fired him. When done correctly, firing someone can take time.

When a school teacher is caught in a relationship with a student they are placed administrative leave (still getting paid) while the incident is investigated. Most usually resign before getting fired.

I believe this was handled the same way. If you fire an employee too quick, they could always come back and file a wrongful termination lawsuit.

The real question is if the resignation was effective immediately and no additional pay.

D – Appreciate the time and effort, thoughtfulness you placed in the post.

I was actually quite grieved regarding the video. The focus was on the pain, the hurt… and no doubt it is very real. I feel it deeply too, as someone who attended Shady Grove Church for fifteen years, and now have our adult son who has just vacated Gateway, because in good conscience, he cannot stay. (This week, he already joined in worship with a Baptist church in our city.)

But at Gateway? There was no prayer of desolation, no mention of leadership asking for forgiveness for what they were unwilling to ask Robert for years. No prayer of desolation for the church, no crying out for God’s mercy on the church, and while speaking of brokenness, it is not repentance. I did not see individuals on bended knee, but business as usual. There was also no real mention of the crime – the tremendous level of sin inflicted upon a child. It seems not a time to “praise the Lord” as usual, but a time to weep, to mourn, and yes, to mourn the state of the church. Where, the gift of conscience? Our son has one.

Chuckp,

Very good points. I commented earlier regarding why the elders are doing certain things. My comment was about accepting resignation vs firing. We ALL believe Cindy, but we have to keep in mind that Robert has the resources to hire lawyers as well, and could potentially go after people if facts are misrepresented.

I attend a small church somewhat near to one of the Gateway campuses. We had multiple people visiting our church this past Sunday who were previously Gateway members. There is already an exodus, though how large of one remains to be seen.

Our pastor addressed the issue briefly, and as part of his addressing of the situation explained to the church what sort of accountability structures we have in place and some steps that the church is taking to make sure that any allegations of impropriety can’t just be concealed by a few yes-men elders. My wife and I appreciated that.

The slide at the 2:48 mark in the video was ironic to say the least:

—–

“We’d love to hear what God has done in your life.”

“Share your story with us.”

—–

Hmmmm, their former leader might have a completely different perspective on that.

Your perspective is a good one, Dee. One thing I noticed was that although Cindy was named, her age when the crime was committed was never mentioned, once again. How old are Tra Willbanks girls?

I read an excellent analysis of sexual abuse, although not this particular case, on ACNAtoo, by an Anglican priest, Rob Sturdy. It contrasts the “theology of glory” with the “theology of the cross. https://www.acnatoo.org/acnatoo-blog/abuse-and-the-cross?rq=theology%20of%20the%20cross

The “theology of glory” is all about blessing (Morris’ most popular book is “The Blessed Life”), victory, success, wealth, and power. Whereas the “theology of the cross” is all about suffering, loss, defeat, poverty, weakness, death; in other words about Jesus’ life as it actually was.

Certainly, most American evangelical churches, and Pentecostal churches, especially the megachurches, are all about the “theology of glory,” and eschew completely the “theology of the cross.” In this they are more “American” than Christian, since the American ideal is about nothing if not money, winning, and success.

These churches want resurrection without crucifixion. They want to celebrate Easter all the time, but completely skip Good Friday. And of course, there can be no true Easter if there is not a real Good Friday. (This is maybe a general problem with Protestantism as contrasted with Catholicism and Orthodoxy, which seem much more comfortable with death and thus honest about it: The Catholic crucifix or Orthodox icon showing the terribly suffering Jesus, as contrasted with the clean, often stylized, empty crosses of Protestant churches, or no cross at all in many Reformed churches.)

My wife and I have attended Gateway occasionally, as “tourists” so to speak (I imagine a large part of their attendance most weeks are tourists like us, hence the pathetic Sunday attendance–by their standards–this past weekend. Not as much victorious, celebratory “entertainment” on offer last weekend for sure.)

One thing we have always noticed is–unlike every plain, ordinary church–that there is never any public or pulpit acknowledgement of tragedies or loss, bankruptcy, death, disease, sickness. The latter are only mentioned if there has been an amazing “healing” or cure by the intervention of the church or pastors. “God gives the victory!” Cue standing ovation.

I think all this “positivity” is creepy and positively dishonest. Real Christian life, and certainly human life, is nothing like that. And it is heretical, since it elides the suffering and death of Jesus–His suffering and death which we are invited to share–and the whole of the “theology of the cross.”

I doubt that the spiritual DNA of churches like Gateway can be changed, since they have such a deficit of what a scholar once called “the tragic understanding of life.” They are now facing it for sure, the tragedy of their lauded, successful pastor revealed as the molester and rapist of a 12 year old girl, which he has never been honest about. Depths of sin unknown to such a rich, successful church, and innocence sacrificed for that success. I am very doubtful they can truly “lament and repent” and name Robert’s sin, “child rape and molestation,” and their own complicity in it.

Given our origin story, Christians of all people should be well versed in tragedy, since our Savior is a “Man of Sorrows, well-aquatinted with grief.” Yes, He has won and will win the cosmic victory in the end. But only after the most unimaginable suffering and death.

Thus now we grieve, although we grieve as a people with hope.

Another local church near Gateway is preparing their staff and church to receive visitors and new members. This is a church with solid leadership and integrity already thinking of how to best care for and welcome , and what might need to be done for healing and for those hurt to feel safe and build trust again.

This was not the way God designed the church.

If Gateway uses NDA’s will the full truth come out? Could there be other women or children?

The challenge I see in the church today including here in DFW… too much entertainment, too much celebrity, not enough Word and Spirit. God wants his church back.

Friend went to Gateway Frisco Sunday and said all the books for sale in the bookstore were gone. The money earning Robert Morris books are gone… his empire has fallen.

If Pastor Robert cared about the flock entrusted him, we would hear from him. At least that would be the right thing to do. But in the world we live in, attorneys, fear, corporate structure… all limit that.

Where are we to go from here? Where is the Word of God being preached in authority in the DFW metroplex? Where is the Holy Spirit allowed to move?

If you know of a good WORD and SPIRIT church where the body is truly being disicipled, please let me know. Thank you. Sincerely, church girl, seriously grieved about the state of the American church

I believe that faith in God is a thing apart from faith in the Church.
The Church is 100% human in origin and expression, much like literature and works of art.

I have attended Gateway for 18 yr. Is it possible to actually stay there? There are so many unknowns. If James Morris steps in as pastor, what will it look like? I’m confused.

Beverly,

I question if James Morris is a strong enough leader for such a large church. In addition, who is going to be directing James’ decisions but Robert Morris. It might be best to break from the whole Morris family and start anew.

I was young and now am old … I’ve been doing church in America for the better part of a century. I’ve seen the good, the bad, the ugly and the very ugly in the American church. The recent flurry of mega-pastors who have fallen has been a very ugly thing to behold indeed; the depth of their sin has been revealed before the world. We have seen the underbelly of celebrity worship, heard the heart-wrenching cries of countless victims, felt the pain of worshippers when trust has been betrayed, and seen the kingdoms of men crumble.

The response by church leaders in all this mess heaped upon the church has ranged from a few tears to none at all … from calming the noise down a notch to keeping the beat going as usual. I have yet to see an elder stand before the congregation and do the right thing … to put the brakes on the routine, to call a SOLEMN ASSEMBLY … to turn off the entertainment, humble themselves, pray, repent of ‘their’ wicked ways, and seek God’s face. Are they not close enough to the heart of God to know what to do?

Here’s what it supposed to look like:

“Clothe yourselves with sackcloth and lament, cry out in grief … pray without ceasing … Consecrate a fast, proclaim a SOLEMN ASSEMBLY … Gather the elders to the house of the Lord your God, and cry out to the Lord in penitent pleadings … For the judgment day of the Lord is at hand” (Joel 1)

No loud music to stir the emotions, no jumping up and down, no special speakers, no prepared text to read, no standing ovations … just church leaders and congregation bowing before God, calling out to Him, weeping and praying as they ought, and staying there long enough until their cry reaches Heaven. Enough of the counterfeit, time for the genuine. Lamenting may be a downer, but it is necessary to get in step with God, to hear His voice, to know where to go from here.

Will it happen at Gateway?

Monica,

Please share! We left Gateway at the end of last year and have been looking for a new church.

George,

“There are probably good people there and God can use them if they are tenacious enough and love their church family. Otherwise the politicians on the payroll win and they will be left with a smaller church of apathetic lackeys.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++

politicians on the payroll…. the pastors and elders?

how do they win in this situation?

tenacious to love their church family… i’m sort of sick of the church family and pressure to love the church family.

it means the org.

so much pressure. being held hostage to it, on penalty of being accused of being cowardly, and many other horrible things stated, implied and inferred.

as is see it through so much experience, loving the church family is code for keeping up appearances so there is good attendance & volunteerism –

-so “i” have a club to go to that is enjoyable

-so the pastors can have easier and more enjoyable jobs with job security

-but mostly to keep the tithes keep coming in.

YOY: at the end, the comment about “Gateway of Hope” made me sick!

More proof that Christians are Late Adopters.
It’s been sixteen years since “HOPE! CHANGE! HOPE! CHANGE! HOPE-CHANGE!”

elastigirl: -but mostly to keep the tithes keep coming in.

“The Spice Must Flow.”
— Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, Giedi Prime

lancelot lamar: These churches want resurrection without crucifixion. They want to celebrate Easter all the time, but completely skip Good Friday. And of course, there can be no true Easter if there is not a real Good Friday.

As someone who’s tried his hand in imaginative fiction, this also holds for storytelling in general:
A Hero needs a Strong Villain in order to truly be Heroic.
(And the stronger the villain, the greater the Hero.)
A victorious ending must be contrasted with a Deep Dark Valley on the way to that victory.
(And in Horror, that Deep Dark Valley gets really Deep & Dark; the difference between Adventure and Horror is that in Horror, all hope (or next to all) is lost.)
It is often the Dark and Strong emotions that put Power behind a narrative.
(I have had three or four stories burst into my mind demanding to be written; all of them have been Dark; two involved Death. Including the one where I got my handle.)

Dee, I want to thank you. God is dividing those who believe truth and those who don’t.

We attended 18 years. We waited and waited and waited and waited for the congregation to be called to humble themselves, get on our knees and repent. We did this in our home, but never heard it from the pulpit. We were grieving long before we departed. I don’t believe lamenting or repenting was on the pulpit’s radar.

The law firm that was hired, is to protect whoever is paying their bill. They are investigating how they can protect their client and the image of their client.

The calloused and ignorant comments that you listed are an indicator of the congregation being manipulated and dumbed down. It is mind control. Was Bathsheba twelve years old? No, RM is NOT a King David.

This is a time of repenting and lamenting, but a necessary time. It doesn’t look like it now, but it is a very good thing.

If one is wondering if they should stay or go, they must ask themselves if they can serve under the same leadership because it is “all in the family.”

Robert Herrera:
Imagine being Cindy and hearing this elder!
“We’re sorry this happened, BUT look at all the good we’ve done!”

[sarc] “And how many Souls have YOU Saved? Huh? Huh? Huh?” [/sarc]

Church girl,

5-fold ministry? I had never heard that phrase, and Paul referred to himself as “ the last apostle”, so I looked it up. (Read several articles) We no longer have 5…… The true prophets and the apostles completed their missions some 2000 years ago. Those who call themselves apostles and prophets are very different from those in the Bible.

. It’s essential we have a pastor. Someone to shepherd and care for us. If we don’t have a pastor, we will be faint, like sheep without a shepherd.
Jesus is our Good Shepherd and our High Priest. Some of these modern, human pastors are wolves in sheeps’ clothing who will mislead us and take advantage of us. We must be like the Bereans.

https://www.crosswalk.com/church/pastors-or-leadership/what-is-the-five-fold-ministry.html

[Irving] began teaching that “the five-fold ministry” of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers had disappeared from the church and was in need of restoration. According to Irving, the restoration of these ministries would usher in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on the earth. Irving and his followers began the Catholic Apostolic Church in 1832. Its chief purpose was to restore “the five-fold ministry” and usher in the Millennial Kingdom. The Church ordained twelve “apostles” who were to be the last days equivalent of the original Twelve whom Jesus appointed.

Headless Unicorn Guy: [sarc] “And how many Souls have YOU Saved? Huh? Huh? Huh?” [/sarc]

Exactly. It’s like they truly think they are indispensable to God. As if it isn’t God, Himself, doing any true saving, and as if he can’t raise up another servant (an obedient and righteous one) to replace them. I think of the words of Mordecai to Esther in 4:14. Or of the exiles. Humility is so undervalued in the church. Spiritual maturity overall seems to be. No discipleship nor depth of biblical knowledge and practices. God help us.

Hearing about all this s|-|it that’s allowed to happen in churches makes me glad that I live in thee Hotel California.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Sometimes a person is not any kind of archetype, but just a real turkey. That person can still be the enemy of your faith.

AF:
Beverly,

I question if James Morris is a strong enough leader for such a large church.In addition, who is going to be directing James’ decisions but Robert Morris.It might be best to break from the whole Morris family and start anew.

Whether or not the son knew of abuse is not the issue to me.
James grew up in at least a somewhat dysfunctional home with secrets being kept.
James grew up immersed in his father’s ideology and theology.
James grew up learning how the organization (oops I meant church!) is run.
James has attended this church since it started (with a few breaks for college, etc). What is familiar is comfortable.

I am not saying he is a bad person! I think that because of who he is, he is NOT the person to take over and make lasting or effective changes.

People don’t need Gateway version 2. They need Gateway to Godly Living.

YOY: I think that because of who he is

HEIR TO DADDY’S PULPIT/THRONE.

“A cold Iron Throne
Holds a boy barely grown;
His crown based on Lies,
You Win or You Die…”

YOY: People don’t need Gateway version 2.

With this group of elders, I suspect there is no Plan B, only Gateway 2.0 sticking with the Morris family … Gateway = Morris = Gateway

Eric:
While I agree with a lot of what you wrote, I keep seeing a lot of people saying they should’ve fired him.When done correctly, firing someone can take time.

When a school teacher is caught in a relationship with a student they are placed administrative leave (still getting paid) while the incident is investigated. Most usually resign before getting fired.

I believe this was handled the same way. If you fire an employee too quick, they could always come back and file a wrongful termination lawsuit.

The real question is if the resignation was effective immediately and no additional pay.

Texas is an at-will state. Employers can fire employees for any reason, at any time. There would have been no mandate for an investigation. He could have been fired immediately.
Teachers have unions, so it’s an apples vs. oranges discussion.

Cynthia W.: It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in any human being.

That’s what He has been telling us all along! But human nature being what it is, we want our own king … a “mega” king is even better! In the meantime, God sits back and wonders why we choose what we choose when all Heaven stands ready to appropriate to us what we need ‘if’ we would focus only on Jesus and, as you note, take refuge in Him.

Church girl: Where are we to go from here? Where is the Word of God being preached in authority in the DFW metroplex? Where is the Holy Spirit allowed to move?

Good luck. What you are describing is a rare & endangered species, a needle in a haystack, a precious treasure buried in a field. If you were to lift the Holy Spirit out of most churches, 95% of the stuff would still go on. Doing church without God has become so comfortable, we don’t even look for Him any longer.

Monica: This is a church with solid leadership and integrity

That’s what they used to say about Gateway. Keep your guard up.

Eric: When done correctly, firing someone can take time.

Texas is an “At-Will” employment state, which means an employer can terminate an employee at any time for any reason. There was sufficient reason to fire Mr. Morris at-will, without accepting his resignation.

Elaine: I was sick to my stomach over the clapping, cheering, standing ovations and fanning.

Not everyone that goes to church is the Church.

Elaine,

I wish the best for you, Elaine, as you seek God on where to go from here. May God show you clearly which road to take.

“What infrastructure of Gateway does Robert Morris own. Folks, I suspect this will be like trying to separate the layers of an onion with the concomitant tears.” – Dee

There is an IRS complaint reporting process for tax-exempt entities:
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/irs-complaint-process-tax-exempt-organizations

Any ideas on the content for a complaint that would get the IRSs attention, that would cause them to consider an investigation? The personal wealth of Morris and tremendous amount of donations that Gateway has received over the years is alone enough for me.

That makes total sense. James Morris is more of a business man than a pastor.

Max: Not everyone that goes to church is the Church.

Elaine, that group would cheer a dumpster fire. They are a sad, misguided flock of sheep. They’ve been manipulated and don’t even know it.

I question how Life Outreach International (James Robison’s ministry) qualifies as a church. Propublica is a great resource for checking up on charities.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Church girl,

Church girl:
Church is important.See Hebrews 10:25.We are not to forsake the assembly of ourselves together, even more so as we see the day approaching.The Pastor is one of the 5-fold.It’s essential we have a pastor.Someone to shepherd and care for us. If we don’t have a pastor, we will be faint, like sheep without a shepherd.

Jesus is my Shepherd. John 10. I go to church but not an authoritarian power over others one. I consider all people my equals.

I think most church attenders would benefit from reading Patricia Evans books (Verbal Abuse – where power over dynamics are explained and psychological abuse is addressed – and her book Controlling People which for any authoritarian types is not a how to manual.) In Sheep’s Clothing by George Simon is also good. Many of us church goers are trusting types and ripe targets for manipulators. It would serve us well to learn ways to guard our hearts and to spot the wolves among us. I also recommend reading the whole Bible. I will put the app on and listen to several chapters as I’m getting ready in the morning in addition to my reading time. Life has taught me a lot of hard won lessons. And one is that churches attract wolves. We need to feast on solid food to prepare for the times and for kingdom work, not just settle for being spoon fed on Sunday mornings with inch deep motivational talks.

Having considered all of the available evidence (one piece of which is a book that RM wrote, “The Blessed Church” (hereinafter, TBC), which is a manual on church government based on how Gateway operates), I do not believe that Tra Willbanks is responsible for any coverup.

I believe there are two elders who are responsible: Tom Lane and Steve Dulin. (There may be a third elder, Gayland Lawshe, who may have had a role in this, and I will explain shortly, but there is only scant circumstantial evidence to tie him to anything.) It is my view, as I shall explain, that they set up a system to keep the other elders “in the dark” about RM’s past.

In TBC, RM mentions that Lane was brought on board as Executive Pastor (essentially, #2 behind RM). He was brought on after Gateway’s founding; RM doesn’t say when this took place, but it had to have been before 2005 since Lane was involved in the matters surrounding Cindy’s first letter and her request for renumeration, and the rejected counteroffer with the NDA requirement. We also know that he was involved in the 2007 letter from Cindy, as well as the 2009 letter from Andrea to the elders (since, on the latter, he and David Smith – who’s role at Gateway I do not know as he is not shown being part of the leadership team – spoke with Andrea and her husband and gave them the impression that this was a “recurring issue which has been settled”).

As both Executive Pastor and a staff elder, Lane is in the perfect position to protect RM. As one of the elders, he would have an audience with the other elders, and could convince them to make him the point of contact should any of them receive communication that RM had acted inappropriately. As Executive Pastor, he can set up protocol to direct Gateway employees that if any of them get similar communications about RM, they are to forward them to him. He can then “investigate the matter” and do whatever is needed to hush it up.

Steve Dulin comes into play as well. On Gateway’s website Dulin is listed as a “founding elder”; thus, he’s been with RM from the beginning. In The Blessed Life, RM tells Dulin’s story of how he continually increased his giving % and was blessed as a result (though he doesn’t mention him by name), in his follow-up book Beyond Blessed RM reveals Dulin as the person he mentioned previously. In TBC Dulin is noted as having a special role: he is one of two elders (Lawshe the other) who are specifically assigned to check on RM personally and make sure he is able to do his duties. Finally, Dulin was to be the elder who spoke with Andrea and her husband regarding the 2009 letter (but didn’t due to Andrea’s husband being sick).

In his assigned role, Dulin could go to RM and ask about any rumors, and then (either with Lane or separately) also participate in a hush-up.

As such, they’re able to tell whoever asks, whatever story needs to be told.
To another elder: “it’s that same woman who’s been trying to ruin RM and Gateway since 2005”
To a “concerned member”: “that’s an old issue which the elders settled years ago, she just doesn’t want to forgive”

It is very easy in such a system to keep other elders – especially non-staff elders like Tra, who spend the majority of their time concentrating on their employment – in the dark as to what is really going on.

Catholic Gate-Crasher:
My Word-of-Faith neighbor wrote an entire “devotion” comparing fallen pastors to King David. I kid you not. I think this must be a common trope.

You mean the King David whose daughter was raped by her own brother, who had another son murder said rapist and then rebel against his father’s authority, and whose kingdom split only two generations later?

Interesting example for your neighbor to choose…

George,

Gateway is a repeating similar pattern similar to the shenanigans of Willow Creek, Mars Hill, Harvest, and recently IHOP. The inner group who is in charged try to control every talking points. There were no open and honest discussion. Good people (those who really care) has no option but to leave.

Headless Unicorn Guy: “NUKE THE WHOLE PLACE FROM ORBIT – IT’S THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE.”
— Aliens

I wasn’t going to comment at all but this statement sums up what’s going through my mind as this situation has unfolded.

So…one final time…. with feeling
Stay… home…. Sunday…. save….10…. percent.

Peace out.

Max: Welcome to Mega-Mania!

“IT’S TIME FOR — MEGA-MANIACS!
SAY ‘AAAAMEN’ WHILE PASTOR YAKS!”

Headless Unicorn Guy: SAY ‘AAAAMEN’ WHILE PASTOR YAKS!”

Don’t you give me no dirty looks
Your pastor’s hip, he knows what cooks
Just tell your Gateway friend outside
You ain’t got time to take a ride
Yakety yak (don’t talk back)

HR1942: When my father in law was dying I asked Gateway if they could help fund our emergency airfare to get our family to him before he passed. I thought it was reasonable since they are “all about people.” The office called and told me my request was denied but they would be happy to send flowers when he died.

“Whoever has adequate resources, and sees his brother in need, but has no compassion for him, how does the love of God live in him?” (1 John 3:17)

Hobbs: One Sunday he made the comment “don’t expect to ever get an appointment to speak to me.

For the real pastors I know, making time for members of the congregation who need someone to give them advice, to comfort them, to pray with them, to weep and grieve with them, is often a more important part of their week than sermon prep and the sermon itself.

Anybody who has no time for the *people* is not a pastor.

OTOH, maybe people, especially women, can consider themselves lucky they didn’t get RM’s special type of “counseling”.

RM is and has probably always been a “motivational speaker” with a more than usually captive audience that was more than usually easy to guilt into forking over their money.

Where to even begin. The mentality of the pedophile-apologists is truly repulsive and disgusting.

Anyone attacking a victim of pedophilia in order to minimize and/or excuse the crimes of the pedophile, needs to recalibrate their moral compass.

“Cindy lied.”

This accusation absolutely boils my blood. There is no evidence that she is lying. Everything indicates that she is telling the truth. When more victims of Morris inevitably come forward, will his loathsome defenders accuse them of lying, too?

“Cindy tempted Morris because she wanted to marry him.”

This mentality also boils my blood. Anyone suggesting that a 12 year old girl “tempted” an adult man, is likely to be a pedophile themselves. No decent sort of person thinks this way. The people claiming that 12 year-old Cindy “tempted” the adult Morris, are truly vile individuals. It’s victim-blaming at its worst. 12 year-olds aren’t thinking about marriage, nor are they interested in tempting adult men.

“Cindy must forgive because she will not go to heaven if she doesn’t.”

Firstly, anyone who believes in Jesus Christ is guaranteed eternal life in Heaven.

Secondly, threatening victims with damnation is a typical gaslighting tactic used by pedophile clergymen and their enablers. It reminds me of that Catholic Cardinal who told the victims of a pedophile priest that if they told anyone about what happened, they (the victims) would go to hell. Sorry, creepy Robert Morris fans. You don’t get to decide who goes to Heaven. Only Jesus Christ gets to decide that, and Jesus says that everyone who believes in Him will go to Heaven.

Thirdly, forgiveness doesn’t equal no consequences. Even if Cindy forgives Robert Morris, Robert Morris still needs to face the consequences for his actions, preferably in a court of law.

Fourthly, there doesn’t appear to be much evidence of Morris’ repentance. What does Jesus say about those who harm children? Think about THAT, Robert Morris fans.

Of course Morris, like anyone else who sins, will be forgiven by Jesus IF Morris is truly sorry. But that doesn’t mean that Morris won’t have to face the earthly consequences of his actions, starting with being removed from ministry.

Do the Morris fans think that Morris should simply be able to move past this and continue as the leader of Gateway despite being a known pedophile? What planet are they living on? Are they completely out of touch with reality?

“Robert Morris is like King David and is forgiven.”

Robert Morris is nothing like King David. It’s also worth noting that King David was severely punished for what he did to Bathsheba (and Uriah). King David was sincerely sorry and full of genuine repentance for his crimes.

“(Did Morris teach this nonsense?)”

Probably. The corrupt greedy megachurches teach all sorts of heresies and idolatrous nonsense. Steven Furtick and his Elevation Church comes to mind.

“This all was Cindy’s parents’ fault.”

How?

“Morris has repented and been restored.”

I don’t see much evidence of repentance from Morris. Has he even released a statement taking responsibility for his actions and acknowledging the harm he did to Cindy and apologizing to her for it? Has Debbie apologized for her gaslighting of Cindy, when she tried to make Cindy feel guilty for being the victim of her pedophile husband?

Also, restored by whom? I don’t see any evidence that Jesus restored Morris to ministry.

As mentioned above, Jesus gets very angry when people harm children.

While a sin can be forgiven, that doesn’t mean the sinner gets to return to church leadership as if nothing has happened. If Morris was truly sorry, he would realize that it is inappropriate for him to return to ministry. If he was really full of repentance for his actions, he wouldn’t WANT to return to ministry as if nothing had happened.

“This is all about costing Trump the election.”

Who cares?

There’s no evidence whatsoever that Cindy is trying to damage Trump’s election campaign. Not everything in life is about Trump. Cindy probably doesn’t even care about Trump or about damaging his election prospects. But even if that WERE her motivation, it’s irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether the allegations are true or not, and all the evidence indicates that Cindy is telling the truth.

The same applies to the allegations against Trump. Even if his accusers are motivated by a desire to damage Trump’s political career, that’s irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether the allegations are true.

“Cindy wants all of Morris’s money.”

She deserves all of his money.

“It was 35 years ago, so it doesn’t matter now.”

Spoken by someone who has never been sexually abused.

Generally the people who have this “it happened a long time ago” mentality tend to be misogynistic, disrespectful towards women (and children), and dismissive of sexual assault. They are the sort of people who think that groping women isn’t a big deal. A totally disgusting and abhorrent mentality.

Cindy has to live with the emotional, psychological, mental, sexual, and spiritual harm that Morris inflicted on her, for the rest of her life.

For Cindy, it didn’t “happen a long time ago.” It happens every time she has a flashback or memory of being raped and sexually assaulted, which is probably multiple times each day.

“I (Dee) am being used by satan to destroy Gateway.”

This is a common tactic that is used by the corrupt and greedy megachurch leaders against anyone who exposes their misdeeds. It’s projection: accusing others of what they themselves are doing.

If anyone is being used by satan, it’s the self-promoting, ambitious, evil charlatans such as Robert Morris, who in addition to being a pedophile, also goes around trying to manipulate Christians by idolatrously and falsely telling them that God will send them to hell if they don’t support a certain country in the Middle East.

As for destroying Gateway, it’s obvious that Robert Morris and his coterie of sycophantic elders did a great job of that themselves, without any help from Dee.

Elaine:
I only want to be a fan-girl of God, so my time at Gateway is finished.

God bless you, Elaine! That is the right attitude to have!

I pray that Jesus will lead you to a wonderful new church home where you feel welcomed and cared for like family!

This is just my opinion, but if I could make a suggestion, you might feel more at home and more cared about and loved at a smaller church, instead of a megachurch that feels like a city where you don’t even know most of the thousands of members.

To be sure, smaller churches are not immune from scandals or problems, but at least you get to personally know the members, so it feels more welcoming and friendly.

That is just my experience and my opinion though. I just thought I’d share it in case it is helpful as you look for a new church to join.

BZ,

David Smith had some kind of very kind spirit to him. I wonder if he was set up. I remember him and he was a generous man that use to be in charge of finances. His daughter is still at the church or was a few years back on staff different last name.

Then it becomes and organization and leaders need to be protected from any form of accountability to the little people (the sheep) who are suddenly realizing something just isn’t right and want to know why.

I would venture to say that many of these megas, and some of the smaller to mid-sized churches, are in actuality, businesses. Some of these megas come with seven or eight figure salaries for their “CEOs”. Tax free!

The last church I was a member of started out with the promise that they would be helping the surrounding community as much as possible. They did have a very active food pantry, but as the church got bigger and bigger, and more well known, the community outreach seemed to drop in corrolation. The staff salaries got bigger, until they stopped sharing how much salaries were and along with hiding other financial data. Everything became about volunteering on Sunday morning and drawing more people to the church instead of the church moving outward toward the community.

I’m starting to believe maybe the ones that act like businesses should be taxed, but there are smarter minds than me that would have to figure out how to determine that. It’s not just Christian churches that do this either. Religion is a big money industry in the US, and as a country, I don’t think we’ve been really honest about that.

Those who blindly and vocally give support to Gateway and Pastor Robert Morris, believing they’ve been persecuted by Satan or not forgiven for repentant sins from “35 years ago” or other ridiculous comments made, should know a salient fact. “Nobody can intentionally abuse a 12-year-old child for five years (statutory rape) and not expect a trail of evidentiary data to be released of a “concerted cover-up” that, when revealed, will make any situation worse than it already is.” There’s wisdom in lamentation while in darkness and great folly in celebration while the lights are not yet turned on.

Max,

The part that strikes me is “be transformed ad progressively changed”.

These days, that phrase from Romans is more honored in the breach than in the observance.

You mean there’s actually a learning and growth process?
You don’t instantly become Spiritually Perfect (with none of your baggage left) when you walk the aisle and get Zapped like on the Damascus Road?

Headless Unicorn Guy:
Max,

The part that strikes me is “be transformed ad progressively changed”.

These days, that phrase from Romans is more honored in the breach than in the observance.

You mean there’s actually a learning and growth process?
You don’t instantly become Spiritually Perfect (with none of your baggage left) when you walk the aisle and get Zapped like on the Damascus Road?

But you see that is hard, grueling, and time consuming. And of course, in our instant gratification society, we want to get Zapped (just like our coffee in the microwave) and our Sanctification done as quickly as getting our food in the drive-thru. Never mind what some rabbi from Tarsus said about comparing the Christian lift to a long distance road race or grueling athletic event.

Headless Unicorn Guy: You don’t instantly become Spiritually Perfect (with none of your baggage left) when you walk the aisle and get Zapped like on the Damascus Road?

After getting “zapped” on the Damascus Road, Paul disappeared into the Arabian wilderness for 3 years before he began his ministry. The children of Israel spent 40 years wandering through the wilderness until they learned what was in their hearts (Deuteronomy 8:2). How long will the American church be in the wilderness until we learn ‘our’ lesson?

This month my tithe went to victims of abuse rather than Gateway. That is one way I am speaking about this atrocity. I heard some elders resigned. Do you know who?

Dale M Rudiger,

Thanks Dale for your responses on the financial questions I brought up. I’ll check out Propublica.

Elaine: This month my tithe went to victims of abuse rather than Gateway.

What a great response to this. God bless you.

ishy: I’m starting to believe maybe the ones that act like businesses should be taxed, but there are smarter minds than me that would have to figure out how to determine that. It’s not just Christian churches that do this either. Religion is a big money industry in the US, and as a country, I don’t think we’ve been really honest about that.

I’m with you ishy, I’ve long advocated that religion be taxed just like any other business.
It’s not fair that little Bill, the hourly wage slave pays (taxes) out the wazoo, while big Bob the tele-preacher skates, and buys a new jet.

FreshGrace,

But how much of their ‘housing allowance’ is taxable?

nmgirl,

nmgirl,

That is one of those tricky IRS rules where the answer is ‘it depends’.

Col3:3,

Completely confused as to why the rudeness when you name the name of Christ. As you said, I’m new, sso how in the world was I supposed to understand what you just explained when I would see my post appear “waiting for review” and then after some time, disappearing? This would indicate it was not approved. Right? There are other variables as well, Dee. I’m not angry or upset but considering the context of this whole thread (hypocrisy by one many trusted) I would’ve thought you might be less quick to cut someone off at the knees for merely being uniformed. I think you had to have known there was no impatience going on – just ignorance.

Gus: Hobbs: One Sunday he made the comment “don’t expect to ever get an appointment to speak to me.

Any one able to find that online? Youtube? wherever? I’d love to send it to someone who still is defending him as a “man of God”

elastigirl,

completely misunderstood my comment. that’s not what i said.

Church girl,

Mercy Culture in Fort Worth!

Col3:3,

cut dee some slack.

one of the contexts of these recent blog posts is that dee & others have already been accused of all sorts of things (judging, jealousy, slander, lying, hating, satan’s minions, vengeful, abusive,

ishy:

Gateway’s been pulling very problematic things for a long time….They aren’t gospel bearers. They are multi-million dollar businesses for the leadership teams where they happen to preach religious beliefs that they don’t live up to themselves.

Precisely. The theology that Robert Morris/Gateway preaches is absolutely heretical, unbiblical, and idolatrous too.

Dawn Zimmerman,

The comment elastigirl responded to said that we needed an earthly pastor to shepherd us.

I happen to agree that a lot of the current SBC focus on elders and “shepherds” tends to be a lot more about cultic control than helping people. The SBC used to believe in believer autonomy and directly following Jesus. That ideology has changed dramatically in the past 30 years to elders demanding that church members give up all autonomy to the church. That is the key sign of a cult.

I went to an SBC seminary. I can tell you, those people are often the last people that should be shepherding others. They don’t do so for Jesus. They do so because they enjoy the power it gives them.

Max: After getting “zapped” on the Damascus Road, Paul disappeared into the Arabian wilderness for 3 years before he began his ministry.

NOT become Moses Model Founding Pastor/Leader of a New Church Plant three weeks later with a spectacular Testimony for his credentials.

I don’t know if it was actually the Arabian wilderness, but he was definitely thinking things over and learning. Did he actually apprentice to one or more of the surviving Apostles as his mentor(s)? After all, he was a pupil of Gamaliel for years; now he once more becomes a pupil of a new mentor for three years. Street Yeshiva.

HUGs–sometimes people really are zapped. I had a friend into cocaine and alcohol to the nth degree. Making himself and his family miserable. He finally hit bottom, gave his life to Christ, and stood up a new man. Literally. He shunned rehab and suffered no withdrawal and no dts. (I do NOT recommend trying this!) All I can say is that now for over a third of a century the new man has walked happy, his time of mourning ended, and served his family and Jesus faithfully. One of the happiest, nicest people to be around now. Back on the substances he was downright mean and angry.

All that to say yeah, I think Paul really was on the backside of the desert. I think he let the Holy Spirit become his teacher. Something Baptists used to do before the BFM2000.

Sarah:
Church girl,

Mercy Culture in Fort Worth!

THANK YOU! Mercy Culture is an amazing church! The pastors are on fire for God!

a bit of new info:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/robert-morris-gateway-church-sex-abuse-accuser-phone-call-rcna159153?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2U3FU_JqXNrkux9fWj83Ini_Ke2-dlLB8Iw92ZilmtrTQDbuPM_JYXFAs_aem_FhVL710oJITzYV2vhYOn8A

Col3:3,

i read your comments and understood based on what you wrote. fill in the gaps if what you didn’t write, please.

ishy: We need to end NDAs to protect crimes.

There is absolutely no reason in the world for churches to use NDAs. Christianity is all about disclosure; disclosing Truth to those that need to hear the precious Gospel message. Suppressing truth is contrary to the mission of the church.

Ydoesthiskeephappening: a bit of new info:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/robert-morris-gateway-church-sex-abuse-accuser-phone-call-rcna159153

That’s huge.

The headline could have been

“Morris Admits Restitution Period Not Enough”

Cindy: “Two years out of the ministry big deal. … I just have a real problem the fact that you have gone untouched by this.”

RM: “Maybe I wasn’t asked to do enough but I did everything I was asked to do.”

……

Cindy: “I honestly feel though that you wouldn’t have changed unless I would have told, … You only changed because you had to.”

RM: “I am grateful that you told,… I am grateful because God used that to do a work in me that He needed to do. I am glad you did that”

——
Anyone seen the actual transcript yet?

Max:
There will not be “a time to heal” in the American church until we go through “a time to mourn.”No lamenting, no weeping, no repentance = no healing.

You are so right Max. There has to be mourning, repentance and sorrow, grieving, lamenting…..What we are witnessing in the institutionalized church is long overdue and the true church will come out of it. It is quite painful. No one likes to be in the valley, but the valley is necessary before the mountaintop is appreciated. The end result will be good, but the time in between is, and should be painful. May God forgive us for our apathy.

Linda Bryant: David Wilkerson

… was one of the few men with a platform who spoke into the church mess; he called ministers and ministries what they were … imposters. He informed and warned, but few listened.