“If the problems you have this year are the same problems you had last year, then you are not a leader. You are rather a problem on your own that must be solved.” ― Israelmore Ayivor
Last night, Todd called me at 11 PM to let me know about Floyd’s resignation. Good night! Grab the popcorn and sit down for some thinking. Many of my questions revolve around the legalities of current actions. I have long believed that the Executive Committee was worse than useless in advocating for sex abuse victims. My own experience, in watching Jules Woodson get the thumb’s down on her request caused me to be the angriest I have been in a long time.I wrote about this in Steve Bradley (Stonebridge Church) Who Didn’t Report Jules Woodson’s Abuse and Refuses to Speak With Her, Was Commended By the Credentialing Committee For Exemplifying SBC Faith and Practices
The most abysmal line in this travesty of an investigation was the following statement.
It helped provide an understanding of what you experienced and continue to face as a result. We want you to know that we read and grieved over the information available to us including: your blog,
You see, Jules does not have a blog which means this committee lied. If they lied about this, what else did they lie about? I remember saying that about Ravi Zacharias in 2015 and you know how that turned out.
Needless to say, I do not hold the Executive and Credentials Committee in high regard. In fact, I am now conservative Lutheran, having left the SBC in my rearview mirror except for blogging. However, I still have some questions. Let’s take a look at some of the articles written about this resignation
Floyds claims his resignation was a direct result of the waiving of attorney-client privilege.
The Tennessean posted Southern Baptist Convention committee president resigns amid controversy over sex abuse inquiry
The executive committee, which handles convention business when the full SBC isn’t in session during its two-day annual meeting, met in recent weeks to vote on waiving attorney-client privilege for an investigation into the committee’s handling of sexual abuse claims.
Floyd sided with legal counsel who advised the executive committee against waiving privilege, though the committee ultimately voted to do so at an Oct. 5 meeting. Floyd said his resignation is a direct result of that.
A waiver of attorney-client privilege allows the investigator to review privileged legal memos and communications between committee officials and its now-former legal counsel.
Floyd said he supported the investigation, just not waiving attorney-client privilege. A new law firm that executive committee staff hired to provide counsel on the investigation warned executive committee members that waiving privilege could negatively affect the executive committee’s insurance.
The rest of the committee, some of the ones who are apparently sticking around, said they don’t trust what has been going on with Floyd and Greg Addison. What’s that all about?
The day before Floyd announced his resignation on Thursday, Wyatt and 24 other executive committee members called for a special meeting to discuss concerns about committee leadership in a letter sent to committee chairman Rolland Slade, according to a copy of the letter The Tennessean obtained.
(The) signatories told The Tennessean on Thursday afternoon that they were frustrated over, or at least had questions about, the guidance they received in recent weeks from Floyd and Greg Addison, the committee’s vice president. All 25 signatories voted to waive privilege.
“As a new trustee, I am not sure that I can completely trust everything that is going on within the executive leadership of the EC. A lot of what I have seen, at least on the major issue of our response to the sexual abuse allegations and investigation, have not seemed to be very proactive,” Wyatt said in his email Thursday afternoon about why he signed the letter.
Apparently, Floyd has been criticized on similar matters before.
Floyd has come under criticism about similar issues before. A Southern Baptist pastor published an audio clip in June of Floyd saying, “I’m not scared by anything the survivors would say… I’m thinking, the base. I just want to preserve the base,” referring to a conference that featured sexual abuse survivors speaking out about the issue in the convention.
Here are the audio clips dropped by Phillip Bethancourt in which the above highlighted comment, along with others, may be heard. I have posted on this in Part One: Phillip Bethancourt’s Whistleblower Document Which Deserves Its Own Page
Here is a link to the dropbox with the audio clips.
Here is the audio clip of Floyd discussing “preserving the base.
It looks like the EC will have some difficult days ahead as it reconvenes with fewer members.
Slade told The Tennessean in a phone call Thursday evening that he will still call a special meeting in 30 days as the 25 committee members requested. But the nature of the discussion might be different than earlier plans.
Ronnie Floyd’s doozy of a letter along with more problems with the SBC lawyers who decided to get out of Dodge.
Baptist Press posted an interesting take on: Floyd resigns as leader of SBC Executive Committee:
The SBC EC’s longtime legal counsel, Guenther, Jordan and Price, withdrew from representing the board on Oct. 11.
In a letter sent to Floyd, the firm wrote, “Until now, a decision by the Board to waive attorney-client privilege was not reasonably foreseeable. However, going forward we can no longer assure Executive Committee and Convention personnel with whom we work that the privacy of their communications with their lawyers will be secure.”
The EC is not rushing in to replace Floyd which means things will move slooooowly.
…According to the SBC EC bylaws, a seven-member search committee will be formed to begin the search for a new president. Six of the members will be the existing trustees who receive the highest number of votes to serve on the committee. The seventh member will be the chairperson of the board who will act as an ex-officio member.
“We are not going to rush into anything. Going forward we have to make sure we’re fulfilling the bylaws
Baptist Press posted the full context of Floyd’s letter and it’s a doozy. The following are some things that I found to be interesting.
Ronnie states he is known for his personal integrity, reputation, and leadership-kind of a humblebrag.
In the midst of multiple challenges facing the SBC, I was asked to come here because of my proven personal integrity, reputation, and leadership. What was desired to be leveraged for the advancement of the Gospel by those who called me here, I will not jeopardize any longer because of serving in this role.
The waiving of attorney-client privilege causes the SBC to sail into uncharted waters.
As President and CEO of the SBC Executive Committee, I have fiduciary duties. The decisions made on Tuesday afternoon, October 5, in response to the 2021 Convention now place our missionary enterprise as Southern Baptists into uncertain, unknown, unprecedented and uncharted waters. (Ed:Followed by more humble extolling of his own virtues.)
This waiver creates risks related to SBC liability.
Our commitment has always been to fulfill the desires of the messengers, but the deliberations were about“how to do this” in the most effective way. There was a way it could have been done that fulfilled these desires without creating these potential risks relating to the Convention’s liability.
some of our laypeople who are serving as our trustees had to submit their resignation because their profession will not permit them to serve any longer due to these risks that now exist.
Floyd is upset about the personal attacks against him.
One of the most grievous things for me personally has been the attacks on myself and the trustees as if we are people who only care about “the system.” Nothing could be further from the truth.
As the Treasurer of the SBC, it is a privilege to announce to you this week, that over $702.6 million dollars have been given this past fiscal year through our Total Cooperative Program Giving, Lottie Moon Christmas Offering for International Missions, and Annie Armstrong Easter Offering for North American Missions.
Floyd has resigned and he’s done talking…for now.
The Roys Report posted Ronnie Floyd Resigns as SBC Executive Committee President, Citing Damage to His Reputation written by Bob Smietana.
I found the ending of the post, prior to the posting of Floyd’s letter interesting.
Floyd was the longtime pastor of Cross Church, a congregation of about 9,000 based in Arkansas and is a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention.
A spokesperson for the Executive Committee said Floyd would not give interviews or comment about his resignation.
Some questions and thoughts.
- He blathered on too long about his dadgum personal integrity.
- Ronnie Floyd did not express an ounce of concern for the many, many victims of sexual abuse in the SBC on his way out the door. This, above all, speaks volumes to me. I’m glad he’s gone.
- The vote of the SBC messengers regarding the waiving of ACP meant that Ronnie Floyd and the lawyers would have to go.
- The lawyers could not stay since they deem that such a waiver is not in their best interests or the interests of their clients.
- Ronnie Floyd had no other option but to resign since the messengers said he had to waive ACP.
- I have a feeling that there will be some hard days ahead for the SBC.
- I think there will be more resignations ahead.
- Could Floyd’s resignation make it difficult for the SATF to get to the bottom of the problems?
- I have now talked to a number of decent lawyers types. They are all opposed to the waiving of ACP. Is there something that the SBC is missing? Could this come back to bit them on the nose?
- Floyd claims he ain’t talking. My guess is that this will extend to any sort of questioning about his activities. How will the SATF get around this?
- Floyd and others probably knew this would happen when the vote was taken last June. Could he and others have removed essential documents (legally) that will make it hard on the SATF?
- Can anyone describe, in layman’s language, what effect the waiving of ACP could have on the SBC’s insurance?
- Did they give Floyd some sort of severance? I’ve heard he made a luxurious living drinking from the SBC trough. I bet he had some sort of golden parachute. Am I wrong?
- So, why did the remaining members of the EC say they didn’t particularly trust Floyd and friends? The answer is bound to be of interest (at least to me whilst consuming popcorn.)
And now, for the big ask, could someone please take on Jules Woodson’s petition to the Credentials Committee. How come her former senior pastor, from the time she was molested, refuses to speak with her. Is Steve Bradley too big of a fish to slap (vigorously)on the wrist or other body parts? How could any Christian pastor ignore a sex abuse victim hurt by one of his hired pastors? Bradley is one of the reasons why I believe that things will not change with the SBC. I hope they will prove me wrong.
Hey, #1.
Lots of varied interests all getting in on the action.
First, Russell Moore and his supporters are really happy. Russell had to leave. So he wrote an incendiary letter that was never sent but got leaked over a year later, right before the SBC meeting. It’s the revenge of Russell Moore.
Second, the wokesters in the SBC are thrilled. They can’t wait to hire an ethnic person to lead the EC. “Hey, look! We are not racist. We have a black friend.” They don’t realize this actually makes them look racist. What do you say about an organization that is so publicly anxious to hire a black man? Uh, maybe they’re trying too hard??
Third, a tidbit about the effect of waiving attorney client privilege in advance without any limitations. It’s not good for insurance coverage, especially covering indemnity obligations for Officers and Directors. I have heard that all lay members of the EC who serve in the accountancy profession that they have been required to resign EC service by their firms because if they get sued there will be no Directors and Officers coverage.
It’s a bit like the French Revolution in the SBC. The Revolutionaries are not to be trusted.
“I hear you. The Executive Committee respects the messengers. We need this deliberative process. We know that this will make our convention stronger and that is what I want.” (Dr. Ronnie Floyd’s commitment to follow the will of the 2021 SBC Messengers).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJKs9lYNCWk
“How could any Christian pastor ignore a sex abuse victim hurt by one of his hired pastors?”
According to the Houston Chronicle’s database assembled by Robert Downen, ignoring sex abuse witnesses (victims) is what churches (leadership et al) do. And sometimes the leaders are the actual predators, which fellow leaders hide and parishioners $upport while purposefully silencing evidence (witnesses).
Lots of work-arounds and useless talk in churches. Clowns at the microphones. Cosplay.
Church engagement is not for the timid. Every social evil will try to flourish in the trusting grace-filled enterprise called church.
Very telling that waiving ACP puts Directors & Officers indemnity insurance in jeopardy, while making deliberate decisions to aid and abet criminal abusers does not. I ain’t buying it. Liability insurers are likely running from the SBC in ANY event.
Oracle at Delphi,
Fascinating. Thanks for iluminating more on the waiving of ACP. I do have a question.Is there anything in this move that can lead to the SBC being able to be sued directly?
Max,
He turned on a dime and got out.
That’s an interesting point. What is the current insurance carrier of the SBC saying about this behind closed doors? Will they discontinue their coverage?
Ignore it and it will go away? I’ve seen that tactic used in churches, businesses, governemtn, etc. Sometimes, it comes back to bite you.
Who do you think is behind the leaking? What role has Greear had? He appears to be lying low for the time being. That may also be due to the Loritts acquital by our friends at Guideposts.
Guideposts is an organization wih a crappy history of defending the bad guys over victims. And they suddenly are doing the opposite.? So many questions.
Dee,
You listed a good number of questions….. I would like to see the “little print” on exactly what the SBC “insurance” is insuring them “for”…
I do know at Big U, the lawyers are there to protect the Big U, not the employees. If I were to ask a Big U lawyer is “such and such action, as an employee, legal”, I THINK the question would be protected by ACP…. But I do know that if I carry out an action that the lawyer thinks is not in the “best interests” of Big U, I have a problem…. And if truly illegal, big issues..
So now, lets speculate… member(s) of the EC is told by a women that so and so Big Shot SBC mover rapped her a number of years ago, and it was covered up…. If I were the EC member, I would talk to a lawyer the EC has employed to give advice on such a matter….. it now appears such a conversation between lawyer and EC member is no longer “ privileged”… There are all sorts of implication, outcomes from this one “simple little speculation”
Reminder that it took 12 months to find a replacement (=RonnieFloyd) after Frank Page resigned the Executive Committee presidency in 2018, and during that time they put Augie Boto [!] in charge as Interim President. Boto had been Frank Page’s Executive VP at the Executive Committee and (simultaneously) the Committee’s general counsel.
I’m sorry if this is a dumb question; I read the post way to fast, reading some paragraphs aloud to husband John as I went along. I just entered Ed Litton (SBC president) in the search box and it didn’t come up. Did my speed reading miss the big name? Where does he stand on this sudden development?
The Credentials Committee process was a sham from the get-go, for a whole host of reasons, including not being staffed with experts, not having adequate training, and not having any teeth. I discussed some of the reasons here. In my opinion, it was so ineptly put together, so ineffective in design, so unsafe for survivors & so uncaring of survivors, that, as it was structured, it did more harm than good. It was never an earnest effort. https://baptistnews.com/article/sbcs-new-reporting-process-again-fails-clergy-sex-abuse-survivors-whats-needed-is-an-independent-review-panel/#.YWsYOLjMI2x
“Don’t ask Political Questions, Comrade.”
Augie Boto…… uh huh.
Augie was one of Paige Patterson’s top lieutenants in the conservative (fundy) takeover. He has also been dead set, from the get-go, against forming a database of sexual abusers in the SBC.
He has claime that the SBC cannot do anything about abusers, or churches who support abusers,because “autonomy” ……. Yet he did not hesitate to kick out churches who support LGTBQ people -I guess autonomy didn’t apply there.
Augie testified as a character witness on behalf of a proven sex abuser in 2003.
More recently, after the Houston Chronicle expose, Augie claimed that, given the number of SBC members, the number of sexual abuse incidents was negligible.
He also accused advocates of abuse victims of being part of a satanic scheme to derail evangelism in the SBC.
I had a pretty good idea what the priorities of SBC EC would be before the actual 2021 convention.
BFFing predatory abusers with church as their hunting ground… leadership has the predators’ backs. Collusion, complicit. Guy Club w/fawning females. Certain type of guy, that is. Putting out the Welcome mat for predation in church.
Tacking this on as a completely unrelated note, but…
Some of you know that i lost my mom almost a year ago.
Then my only remaining sibling – my oldest brother – passed at the beginning of August. He converted to Catholicism many years ago, and I’m so grateful that a chaplain administered last rites as my brother lay dying.
My closest living family members are, respectively, 1200 and 1500 miles away, in two different directions.
B/c of the Delta variant surge in FL in August, i couldn’t be with my SIL, niece and great-niece. And even if i had gone, i would have arrived after my brother lost consciousness. He was in hospice, and passed much as my mom did – peacefully, quietly. My niece was right by his side.
She isn’t even 50 and has lost both of her parents.
My SIL is a cancer survivor, and her health is fragile.
Please pray for all of us. I don’t know what I’m going to do over the holiday season, but I’m not exactly looking forward to it.
Grief stages sneak attacks, and I’m trying to weather one today. Just knowing that someone read this post, and prayed briefly, would be a godsend.
“…I’m glad he’s gone.”
+++++++++++++++++
the less surgically-lifted-&-enhanced faces of male christian leaders to have to look at the better.
(“Your Donation Dollars Sacrificially-Given At Work!”)
dee,
“Guideposts is an organization wih a crappy history of defending the bad guys over victims. And they suddenly are doing the opposite.? So many questions.”
+++++++++++++
they’ll do whatever the person signing their check tells them to do, perhaps?
–find the truth whatever the cost to us personally and professionally
–protect my reputation, whatever the cost to anyone else
bounty hunters for hire?
numo,
hi, numo. i’m so very sorry for these circumstances. i’ll pray prayers for you today.
about holidays… they’re traditional days, but really, they’re kind of figments of our imagination, pumped up with air. sort of like ‘the academy awards’.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Yup, I have been accused of being part of the “satanic, scientific scheme” to undermine the authority of the Bible by saying the earth/Universe is very old, and that modern evolutionary biology explains allot..
I guess being “associated with another Satanic scheme” since I think it is VERY, VERY bad to cover up abuse, especially when done by church leaders, is consistent with the other accusation..
As Dee like said, being called, in my case, a “son Stan”, is a badge I do not mind wearing!
The RF quote about fiduciary duty caught my attention.
Strictly speaking, I think he’s right, and that creates a tension when “doing the right thing” for one set of constituents (those who have been abused by officers of SBC churches) conflicts with the duty of care in terms of stewardship of what SBC donors have funded through decades, the SBC “entities”. It’s not hard to imagine that it could have been the case that in the minds of EC members, the interests of the latter constituency (“the base”) outweighed the interests of the former.
IMO, when an institution gets to the place where it can’t do the right thing “because money,” it may be time to deconstruct and devolve the institution into smaller entities for which “doing the right thing” would not be so costly in money terms.
From Dee’s original post
Short form: price could go up, coverage for this area might be excluded in the future, more lawyers might make more money, victims might have to answer more questions from more lawyers, and the insurers might end up not having to pay claims of even past victims whose lawsuits haven’t already ended. If no insurer is on the hook, any repayment would come directly from the SBCEC (whatever it owns, if anything) and the individuals named as defendants.
Insurance is a contract. Much depends on precise language of the contract(s) in force. Almost everything I say could be different if the contract is written in a non-standard way. Generally any ambiguity in an insurance contract is resolved in favor of the party insured and against the insurer. There could well also be a second level of insurance via a reinsurer, which would be a second contract. That would bring another business into the mix who would communicate with the first insurer and generally could do anything the first level insurer could do.
There might already be an exclusion where the policy does not cover sexual abuse claims. If so, there would not be significant consequences for future policies.
Most organizational liability insurance contracts have an annual cycle for renewal/cancellation, pricing, and revising. That could start/end any time in the calendar year. So to cover Dee’s query we need to address both future policies and current/past coverage.
For the future, when the annual cycle comes around, the insurer’s underwriters will look at the experience and risk, and decide what to do. Recent claims/lawsuits are something they do review. They might ignore this, charge more, or decide not to cover claims in this topic area. Likely either the cost of insurance will go up or there won’t be insurance for claims in this topic area.
If there won’t be insurance for this area, then another term of the contract matters. Insurance contracts can be written for a period to cover either a) claims first made during it or b) claims based on events during it. (Rarely does a buyer switch a->b because that leaves a gap.) If they have a claims made policy and an exclusion is written into the next policy, the exclusion will apply to any victim who hasn’t made a claim against the SBCEC before the current period ends.
That possibility could cause a smart lawyer to get rush their clients claims in quickly. Which would become experience the underwriters look at. If there are many SBCEC victims in this are out there this could become a positive feedback loop or self-fulfilling prediction making the changes to future insurance more likely.
For current and past, the policies in force won’t change. However, the waiving of ACP might affect whether claims are covered. Generally, an insurer has the duty to defend the insured and the insured has the duty to cooperate with the insurer in doing so. That means the insurer’s lawyer (not the SBCEC’s lawyer) will be the one handling the case. The insurer might take the position that waiving ACP is a breach of the duty to cooperate in defending the case. That might void coverage. If so, they might file a separate lawsuit against the SBCEC asking a judge to rule that because of the waiver of ACP they no longer have to cover the claims made in or defend the lawsuit against the SBCEC. Which would leave more lawyers getting paid more money, and might mean that insurance claims which otherwise would have been covered are no longer covered by insurance.
Here the fact that the recently resigned lawyer publicly said his firm had won 50ish lawsuits trying to make the denomination pay for issues at local churches is relevant data. It suggests that in the past the insurer has let the SBC’s lawyer do the work while the insurer paid the bills. With the SBCEC waiving ACP, it is also less likely that the insurer will allow the SBC’s lawyer to handle cases against the SBC in the future, so they may instead have the insurer’s lawyer do it. The SBCEC and any sued individuals would then want their own lawyers monitoring advising, which would mean more lawyers involved, more money to lawyers, and for victims more lawyers present asking more questions when they give depositions and/or testimony.
Samuel Conner,
I think you “hit the nail on the head”….. I also am reminded of the parable of leaving the 99 sheep for the one lost…. Now, in this situation, who are the 99, and who is the “one”??
Samuel Conner,
“IMO, when an institution gets to the place where it can’t do the right thing “because money,” it may be time to deconstruct and devolve the institution into smaller entities for which “doing the right thing” would not be so costly in money terms.”
+++++++++++
yes, sir.
the elephant has landed.
this is the proverbial-but-colossal elephant standing squarely in the middle of planet christian, inc.
(it’s a flat planet [for this to work])
the elephant is tatooed with the truth of the matter:
“the ultimate mission: protect the money”
“the altar: human lives”
“the faith: the ends justify the means”
.
.
…and then there’s lots of graffiti, like
“justifies disproportionately large sums & expensive perks for oneself”
“christian class system”
“leaders self-enrich, missionaries self-fund, abuse victims we pretend we don’t see”
“what’s a christian celebrity to do but just accept all the wealth that comes their way”
.
.
‘tcha, amazingly enough, some won’t even see the elephant.
numo,
I prayed for you and your family just now. May you feel God’s presence and peace.
elastigirl and Max – thank you. I truly appreciate it.
My niece has the added burden of both of her parents dying withing less than one day of her birthday. It’s pretty heartbreaking. I so wish i could have been in FL with her, her daughter and my SIL. At least my niece’s parish church in KCMO was able to livestream my brother’s funeral Mass, though it was *extremely* surreal to see my niece and her husband and daughter in the front pew and not be sitting with them. They have all weathered a great deal, and there’s more to come.
As for holidays, ikwym, elastigirl. But i loved Thanksgiving and Christmas when my parents and grandparents were still on this planet. No holiday is the same without them. When they were here, and other members of my family joined us, it was – most of the time – lovely, although we had *those* holidays, too – the kind that nobody talks about afterwards.
One thing i really miss is gift-giving, especially when kids are involved. It’s hard to feel “Christmassy” without that, and so many other things… but those things were contingent on the people who are gone now.
I have to cling onto a belief in a truly good afterlife, although my views on that are far more influenced by certain strains of Judaism than anything from various church perspectives.
Here’s why: the World to Come (Olam ha-Ba) is, for those Jewish folks who believe in it, for everyone, Jew and gentile alike. This is amazing to me, given how horrifically Xtians have treated Jews for close to two thousand years.
There are some folks who used to comment here who had a *very* awful perspective on death, damnation, and the righteous who get to be in God’s presence. I always felt like their views were comparable to having a gated community that excludes all the “undesirables,” while allowing them to peer through the gates at what the “righteous” are doing…. without ever offering so much as a drink of water to those who are clinging onto the gates’ bars, pressing their faces against them to catch a glimpse of their “betters.” (This is based on an actual gated community in St. Louis. It’s a street full of 19th c. mansions that were inherited by trust fund babies who dressed like they were attending Woodstock. When those houses were built, St. Louis was segregated and Jim Crow laws were in place. The people who live on that street keep the gates locked so that nobody can stroll through on their street,)
Well, this is awfully long, but I suspect you folks will understand why.
Again, thanks.
Summary, org divestment from the whole deal, that is, org is in NO WAY responsible for predation in church communities under their organizational umbrella.
Thus, org affiliation when convenient for org, but local church autonomy when inconvenient for org.
Org dance.
Another question: how much does each individual “autonomous” church pay for the [in name only] affiliation? And, why pay? (Note: 9-5 workers are funding… yet they are the most vulnerable victims… but probably have little say in this org use of their donations. In the end, if they are prey, their donations support their predators’ cover and their leadership silencing victims. Donors support their own demise. Yuck.)
Also, to those who don’t know me, my apologies for the threajack.
I used to read and comment here quite a lot, but that hasn’t been true for well over 5 years now.
Anyway, i know a lot of the old timers, including some who’ve passed on, and since there’s not a dedicated off-topic chat thread on this site, the main comments are the only place i can post such news and prayer requests.
Thanks for bearing with me! I wish all the very best fir everyone who reads and comments here – and Dee and her family, of course.
Btw, after Internet Monk shut down, Daniel Jepsen, who was a longtime “guest” writer there, started a blog called mysteryandmeaning.com Maybe some of you would be interested in it. A bunch of longtime iMonk commenters are there, but it’s a quiet, reflective place, not at all contentious (as far as I’ve seen, anyway). I’m sure any thoughts folks have would be welcome. It’s very low-traffic, which is a good thing, imo.
Not a Good Look.
So, in the spirit of the bigger the lie the better, the org gaslights witnesses (sometimes paying big bucks for research) who are survivors who are victims who are evidence. Jules and Christa Brown and others can tell us how that feels.
As we listen to how it feels to be gaslighted as a witness with evidence, we are then served the false teaching that empathy is sin by false teachers.
How low will this org dance go? It’s like limbo dancing. The bar gets lower and lower as more evidence, more victims, more predators, come to light.
The entitled are breakin’ their backs as they slither practically across the bare floor in lies and false teaching under a bar set so low, it’s lightyears’ distance from the high ground of the standards of love and care that Jesus put in place. This is totally disconnected from Jesus.
numo,
hi, again, numo. i’m sorry for my matter-of-fact observation on holidays. I’m so sorry for your losses. So very hard.
I think heaven is nearby — another dimension. I find it comforting. it seems illogical to me (and contrary to experience) that spirituality is this binary thing- here and there, separated by some closed off/sealed off wall. seems to me spirituality is the one common denominator of everything, joining the here with the heretofore and the hereafter.
but i should really stop with tangential.
I hope for comfort for you.
elastigirl,
No worries! Certainly the commercialization of our holidays *is* conducive to them seeming fake, with smiles pasted on people’s faces, no stress or pressure, just PERFECT!
Man, am i glad i no longer watch broadcast TV. The Christmas commercials drove me around the bend, to the point that i “cut” the cord via a Roku streaming box. I do occasionally see commercials on some streaming channels, but it’s basically nothing compared to broadcast TV.
As for other dimensions, etc., I’m with you on that. My hunch is that we have NO idea of what our universe is, in its totality. What little i can grasp of current theories in physics (via very “user-friendly,” non- technical explanations on good science programs) strongly suggest that your hunch is on the money.
And hey, i enjoy the very fascinating tangent! (Especially since i tend to go on tangents all the time. )
Millions of good Southern Baptist folks are caught in the squeeze between a New Calvinist takeover on one hand and an old guard trying to hold onto control with the other. Together, they have choked the spiritual life out of a once-great evangelistic denomination.
Whether they realized it or not, SBC messengers at the annual meeting this year poked a “hole in the wall” by voting for the Executive Committee to waive its attorney-client privilege.
“The hand of the Lord God fell upon me … He brought me to the door of the court. And when I looked, there was a hole in the wall … He said to me, “Enter and notice the wicked abominations that they do here” … have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark? … they say, “The Lord does not see us” … they have continually provoked Me to anger … though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, yet I will not listen to them” (Ezekiel 8)
Get ready for “wicked abominations” to be revealed. The Houston Chronicle has already recorded some of them.
numo,
Losing loved ones really sux.
All the ‘christianese’ platitudes in existence don’t do a damn thing to comfort the hurting, if anything, they make it worse.
I’ve been where you’re at, wish I could give you a real human hug in solidarity.
Judaism teaches this very thing.
It’s way more practical and real than the Christian view of strict and distant binaries.
elastigirl,
I have been studying/teaching/conducting research, on a college level, on the physical world ( i.e. science) since 1978. One clear thing I have learned…. The more I know, the more I realize so much I do not know /understand….
If one really takes seriously the “attributes of G$d”, the famous “omnis”.. the more one realizes we have a VERY limited view anything beyond our “simple” reality. ( which is not at all simple). The hubris of so many “preachers” that think they have the “answers” just makes me shake my head…
However, one thing that is “simple”…. The Bible and Christ’s teaching are clear about how we are to treat each other, especially the “weaker” among us… and, even if “not many” were abused by SBC leadership, even one or two is one or two too many…. And that cover up is a fundamental disrespect of the name of Christ..
numo,
Numo, it’s good to see you back on TWW…… but I’m so sorry for all of the trials you are having to deal with. It seems like your heart is in a good place and you are coping well, though. I wish you strength and peace.
I wish you lived close enough to me so that I could just adopt you into my family …., that is, if we wouldn’t drive you crazy!
Jeffrey Chalmers,
‘tcha…. everything you said here are the bulk of my own personal faith statement.
(well, as it turns out, i’ve never articulated my own personal faith statement — i know it’s short –but as i was reading i said to myself, “yeah…yeah…. yep….”, checking off boxes in my mind)
Muff Potter,
“Judaism teaches this very thing.
It’s way more practical and real than the Christian view of strict and distant binaries.”
++++++++++++++
I’m all for hybrid.
i mean, really… as jeffrey chalmers says above,
[“If one really takes seriously the “attributes of G$d”, the famous “omnis”.. the more one realizes we have a VERY limited view anything beyond our “simple” reality. ( which is not at all simple”)]
…all of our assumptions are bound to be mere nursery rhymes that barely touch on the surface of deeper realities.
as i see it, it is a mistake to believe bible-scriptural truths are inherently set apart from everything else —
it is a mistake to believe that they must be kept sterile and quarantined from all other belief systems.
as i see it, regarding belief systems (whether religious/ faith-based or no faith), there isn’t all that much that Jesus Christ is incompatible with. (but yes, a few startling distinctions)
in fact, scriptural truths are reiterated many places, just with different language.
so many very interesting angles to things.
I just wanted to let you know that I’ve read your comments. You’ve been in my thoughts. (I’d pray for you, but I’ve been having issues with God….if I wasn’t having issues with God, I’d have added that I’d prayed for you.)
That.
Perhaps you will find others (or others will find you) to help you though the holidays.
From my perspective, an accurate summation of some of the “christian” theological points of view (pun unintended).
And thank you for sharing.
I’m not sure how to explain it, but I think its even worse than that, if possible.
God’s Shekinah cloud of glory left the Temple, left the Israelites…. His chosen people…. for fewer abominations than what is going on in the SBC today.
For decades, the upper echelons of the SBC have either broken, or protected people who have broken, every commandment. (Oh, maybe no one has literally broken the 6th commandment, but they have destroyed the spirits and souls of many people …. just to protect the SBC’s reputation and keep those tithes and offering coming.)
I was never physically abused, but I walked out on the SBC in early 2016 because it was destroying my soul… long before all of the abuses were exposed. It grieves me beyond the pale to think about what all of the abuse survivors have had to endure, and the injustice they are still experiencing.
The best Gospel preachers stand with Paul to proclaim “I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2). It’s amazing how many know-it-all preachers never really preach the Gospel.
I don’t think anyone with any spiritual sense would have accused the SBC of having the glory of God resting on it for the last several decades. There was a lot wrong with SBC (prayerless and powerless) long before the New Calvinists showed up to finish it off. Ichabod.
Numo–praying for you and your family!
Regarding being sons and daughters of Stan for not chucking your brain at the door:
Ever wonder how many times the earth circled the sun in the first nanosecond after the big bang? Let there be Light is a perfect description of it. What about time bending and warping? How does that affect the age of the earth? When we discuss age of the earth do we realize it is a bit like saying “What time is it in Tulsa?” when you are standing in Lisbon?
String theory explains very well how Elijah and Moses could appear in the same time frame as certain apostles.
The Bible says Jesus is Savior of all, especially those that believe. Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw ALL to Him. Peter told us God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance, and the second coming tarries for that very reason. Jesus told the story of the workers angry because the late comers who did not work as long or as hard got the same reward.
My Dad’s clan believed in Universal Salvation. They believed hell was extremely real and extremely painful, but was a state of soul in this life. They would point out where Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed forever–and yet we are told the time will come they will be restored.
Their views would be compatible with modern physics as well as with the Bible. We do not have to pick and choose.
And think what the world would be like if the GOOD news had not been turned into “God is going to get you for that!” Free will and personal actions of course cause results. Cause and effect can hurt an awful lot of people even when we think we are doing a good thing.
I am too old for that. Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan. For me, that is enough said. Of course, that truly disempowers all these “spiritual leaders” who may really be sons of Stan.
See, they would have you believe a fish stick tastes like fish, or that a dry roma tomato from Wallyworld tastes like tomatoes, or that the old sweet corn on the cob in the market tastes like sweet corn. But once you taste fresh caught and shore fried walleye, or take a salt shaker to the garden and pick and it a warm ripe brandywine, or start the water boiling and then go pick the sweet corn, you don’t want the sub par imitation stuff anymore.
And once you truly see the awe filling wondrous mercy of God, fake church just won’t do.
“…lots of questions…”
When is grace extended by a church [leadership, with the rest of us looking on] not God’s grace?
When is discipline enforced by a church [leadership, with the rest of us looking on] not God’s discipline?
Ava Aaronson,
I think you already know some answers to those questions, but I’ll share what I think, in relation to the current topic of discussion:
Q:“ When is grace extended by a church [leadership, with the rest of us looking on] not God’s grace?”
A:*** When grace is bestowed ones who intentionally, maybe repeatedly, commit evil acts on their victims, and the victims are shown no true grace.***
Q:“ When is discipline enforced by a church [leadership, with the rest of us looking on] not God’s discipline?”
A:***When innocent victims are disciplined/ignored/cast aside, and offenders are defended, and walk away unscathed.***
What the SBC leaders do/fail to do is neither God’s Grace, nor God’s discipline.
When it is “cheap grace”:
“Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession … Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” (Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
Thx, Nancy2, aka Kevlar. Putting things into plainspeak is helpful.
Frontline has a doc called, “Escaping Eritrea” in which they say Eritrea is Africa’s N. Korea, specifying no freedom of speech, all resources support the leaders or leaders’ wishes, discipline for everyman not for elite, grace for elite not for everyman, etc.
Got to thinking, what/where is the church’s N.K.?
It seems as soon as church becomes a closed (“polite”) or privileged society, a warning flag flies.
It seems Jesus operated and spoke quite openly. 4 records from 4 different individuals shared. Openly.
A man for his time, and for our times. Thx so much for sharing.
Bonhoeffer paid a price. Truth costs, now. Lies cost for Eternity, IMHO.
I believe Bonhoeffer is living rich dividends in Eternity for telling the truth in his day. No theology dance nor work-around shimmies nor legal shakin’.
“Truth is unkillable” (Balthasar Hubmaier)
Max: “Truth is unkillable” (Balthasar Hubmaier)
Jesus.
John 1.1. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.”
And He’s coming back for His own, His beloveds.
[… in 1519, Hubmaier helped orchestrate a violent pogrom against Regensburg’s Jews, as well as the total destruction of their synagogue; after the Jews’ murder and expulsion, he was instrumental in orchestrating—near the site of the erstwhile synagogue—an image cult of the Beautiful Maria of Regensburg which drew pilgrims from all over Europe and was much criticized by Reformers.”
Hmmm…]
numo,
Praying for you and the family. I’m so sorry it has and continues to be a difficult year. I hope you can all see each other soon and give those precious hugs.
Born and raised in St. Louis. I know well the mansions you speak of. I’ve seen them often.
In any case, the predators show up in the Houston Chronicle’s database assembled from public record, as well as appearances on other front pages, mugshots and all.
Churches hope their attendees don’t read? Don’t follow the news?
“I have to say this, um, I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it; here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ‘em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know, but here’s what blows me away. You wouldn’t listen to gossip, but you’ll read it.” (Robert Morris)
Reputable Christian watchblogs, like TWW, don’t “gossip” … they inform and warn the Body of Christ.
Unfortunately, most Southern Baptists will pay this no nevermind … feeling that it’s really not that big a deal, even if they hear about it in their little world. To the average SBC pewsitter, it’s a BIG deal if you cancel the monthly potluck dinner … things like Convention controversies, shifting theology, drifting ecclesiology don’t seem to bother them much as long as you don’t disrupt the status quo in ‘their’ church. SBC leaders know this and will just ride out the clock until it fades from memory and more popular blog topics come up. But God …
numo,
My thoughts and prayers re with you. I’ve missed you.
grberry,
Thank you for you informative comment
I have now talked to a number of decent lawyers types. They are all opposed to the waiving of ACP. Is there something that the SBC is missing? Could this come back to bit them on the nose?
I have been concerned that the waiver of privilege – while understandably supported by the majority of Messengers due to the strong desire to do something about the SA cover up, combined with the arrogant stonewalling/ dismissal by the EC – was a mistake. I would not be surprised if the EC’s waiving ultimately leads to the dissolution of the entire SBC. There will be a reformulation, to be sure, but it will likely be a “Summitized” denomination, much like the NC Baptist State Convention is becoming.
Most of us old-timers miss you numes.
You should stick around.
The part about that which stands out to me is the indirect brag “I AM SO HOLY AND SO GODLY THAT SATAH HIMSELF SINGLES ME OUT FOR SPECIAL ATTENTION!” Bob Larson said much the same thing.
I am so sick of Christianese One-Upmanship.
Always counting coup for Holier-Than-Thou.
Consider it done. You are all going through so much. I hope you find some comfort and rest.
Ava Aaronson,
Jewry has always suffered under ‘christian’ bigots.
It’s the powers of darkness that orchestrate the hatred.
Luther was no slouch either when it came to anti-semitism.
I think what has everyone flummoxed is that the waiver of privilege is *unprecedented*. I can’t think of a single organization that has waived privilege in this manner. I honestly don’t know what the legal impact is going to be. I need to stop forgetting to bring it up with friends of mine to get their opinion.
Reading Tara Westover’s “Educated”. What she went through with her religious family parallels some Evangelical experiences. Right now, in the chapter I’m reading, her father is trying to do an exorcism to cleanse her memories (of what she witnessed & experienced … assaults & so on in her family). Truth, purge the truth (demons) via exorcism.
The exact opposite of what should happen. (Should be purging the violence not the truth about the violence.)
Ava Aaronson,
That was quite a tramatic life she had.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Well said. This very well could be used in law school texts/case law within a few years.
As are some Evangeo experiences.
A leader pronounces their version of what happened as “truth”, which in reality is a cover for predation. And the victim survivor witness must deny the evidence of their experience. Agency lost.
Tara unpacks this well in her account. In the end, she decided to sacrifice her family relationshipa to save her mind. Good choice but very, very difficult. Brave.
I think it would be accurate to say at this point that the American church, by and large, is now ex-vangelical.
Bridget,
Thanks, and no kidding!
I was on a research trip for work, back when i 1st saw that street, and it all just left me gobsmacked. Since i had to do a whole bunch of things at the Missouri Historical Society, i asked folks there to fill me in on the area in question. (This was back in 1989-90, so they were still in the old World’s Fair building in Forest Park).
I made two trips out there and spent a lot of my free time investigating used book stores in U City/the Loop.
And i know a great deal more than anyone who’s not local needs to know about the VP. 😉 (Their are portraits of VP queens from the 1920s-30s in storage at the MHS. Gifts they couldn’t refuse, basically, since other donations were contingent on them accepting stuff like those portraits.)
Dee,
Dee – thank you, and same here. It’s just… well, this site is still generally a bridge too far for me, given things our country has been going through for some time now, plus COVID, plus my almost 97 y.o. mom getting COVID at the end of last November, and… well.
I had really hoped to include my brother in planning for a memorial service for our mom, for next year. (Due to the Delta variant + the fragility of his health and his wife’s, too.)
As things are now, i don’t know if I’m going to do a single thing. I got a friend’s husband (he’s a UMC minister; i don’t know the Lutheran clergy around hrre anymore) to take my mom’s graveside service, using their liturgy + a few things i wanted to add (a Psalm and the Aaronic blessing, the latter especially since several people who came are Jewish and our families were really close).
I think pretty much all the necessary prayers have been said, but there were ssome wonderful stories and much laughter, too, believe it or not. My mom would have really appreciated all of that, i know.
So, my idea all along has been a cookout/picnic. The sad thing is that there are so few people left who knew my mom. So, if a couple of my cousins (whom i haven’t seen for tears) and family friends come, we probably might have about 10-12 people total, besides me.
The idea of a combined memorial service for both my mom and brother is something i just can’t contemplate, now or maybe ever. (Besides, his daughter and her family did a great job covering the bases during the funeral Mass. The only thing left is for my niece, her husband and daughter to take her parents’ ashes to Oahu and scatter them in the ocean, where – not coincidentally- my dad’s ashes were scattered. It’s a normal thing in the islands, complete with leis in the water and – if it’s a surfer who died – other surfers paddling out to the site on their boards.)
My brother wasn’t a hidebound convert to Catholicism, and he definitely kept his own counsel on a number of things, but he found a kind of peace and universality in the RCC that he’d never experienced elsewhere. We talked about it some, when he was in the DC area for work many years ago and stayed with me for a few nights.
Anyway… i am so grateful that i was actually able to be at my mom’s bedside on the day she passed (in a strictly quarantined building, on a dedicated COVID ward). She was unconscious but peaceful, and i somehow feel that she knew i was there. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, even though I’d also been at my dad’s bedside when he was dying. My mom passed peacefully – such a mercy. And I’m SO thanful that the staff where she was living allowed me to come in, especially since so few people have had that chance since early 2020.
OK, I’m rambling… will stop for now.
* linda, I’m a Christian universalist and don’t believe in any form of hell or annihilationism, either. Those Jewish folks who believe in an afterlife also generally accept that for people who’ve really harmed others, there’s a standard period of time where they have a chance to reflect and repent. There is *no* punishment associated with this, and they eventually join the rest of the folks in Gan Eden (Paradise, literally translated, the Garden of Eden… since “paradise” actually means “garden” in Persian, where we got the word).
I can no longer accept that God would choose to bar anyone from his presence, unless they simply refuse to be there. (A bit like that C.S. Lewis fantasy novella regarding people taking an excurion from purgatory/hell to the outskirts of heaven – with purgatory/hell being places the deceased created for themselves, the result of their isolation from other human beings.)
I have no insight into any of this, other than believing very firmly that there are absolutely no “KEEP OUT” signs in the afterlife.
No doubt those who are no longer physically alive on this planet are closer to us than our own breath and heartbeat, but due to our own limitations, we cannot perceive them or the dimesion or universe they now inhabit. (I have no doubt that the multiverse is an actual thing – so much of what quantum physics is “about” = things that are almost impossible for our minds to grasp, but that are nonetheless real.)
I don’t think that God much cares what religion a person practices – truth us truth (and thus, from God) no matter where it’s found, and the ethics of compassion are universal, as far as i can tell.
The more i learn about certain aspects of Judaism, the more I’m inclined to believe that we suffered terrible losses via Xtianity’s passage from being a Jewish sect to an entirely separate religion. One of the only things keeping me back from pursuing the study involved in the conversion process: Jesus. I don’t think i could ever leave him behind. Nor that i need to, either. 🙂
My thanks tomall who greeted me, and who’ve prayed.
I’d love to be someone’s adopted grandmother, btw! I’m the right age and everything. 🙂
“The Great Divorce”.
According to C.S.Lewis and Narnia for Dummies, the premise of a respite from Hell is actually called a “Refrigerarum(sp?)”.
Whose premise was similar to some theological speculation I’ve heard about the nature of Hell:
That Hell and Purgatory are effectively the same place; if you grow out of it (like one character in TGD) it WAS Purgatory; if you never grow out of it (like all the other characters on the bus), it IS Hell.
Another impression of TGD was how those who never grow out of it are literally “too set in their ways”, like the one ghost of a woman who must have been a real horndog; all she can think about is attempt to sexually seduce the angels she meets on the trip. Or the artist who had a one-track mind about painting. Or the Tragedian who we see pass the point of no return; his originally-artificial Tragic persona literally devours him, leaving nothing human. (Like Anton LaVey and Adolf Hitler, he’d wore the mask for so long the mask became his face; there was nothing left beneath the mask.)
Eastern Orthodoxy goes a step further and claims heaven and hell are the same place – the difference is how one perceives/experiences the unfiltered presence of God. It takes a bit to get used to, but it makes a lot of sense.
numo,
Oh, my! The VP. As a small child I was spellbound by it all. Unfortunately, as an adult, I came to learn all the truth behind the hype.
You’ve articulated pretty much what I’ve believed for years now.
Judaism is a down to earth religion, not so much concerned with the ethereal realm Christianity appears to be obsessed with.
It’s always ‘when I get to heaven’ this, and ‘when I get to heaven’ that.
Frankly?
I have no desire to go to evangelical ‘heaven’.
I hope for what the Jews call Olam Ha Ba, a world remade with all the bad stuff removed and all the goodness of fleshly life preserved and enhanced.
Contrast that with what is unilaterally taught in most circles of Christianity about the ‘world’, the ‘flesh’, and the ‘devil’.
Numo–still praying for you. Glad to find another person who is “over” God acting like a “mean girl.” Amazing how the Bible is not so full of contradictions once you just let it say what it says.
“VP” (in this context)?
I’ve long maintained the church BADLY needs a transfusion of Judaism’s earthiness, here-and-now emphasis, respect for learning and the arts, and sense of humor.
“Physics shaded into Metaphysics years ago with Quantum Physics, but nobody will admit to it.”
— My old (D&D) Dungeonmaster
Ever read Mark Twain’s “Captain Stormfield’s Visit to Heaven”?
It’s a parody of Victorian imagery of Heaven/afterlife, skewering all its absurdities and unreality.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Missed the link to an Online copy:
https://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Mark_Twain/Captain_Stormfields_Visit_to_Heaven/Chapter_I_p1.html
Reminds me of a very short story I once read. Went like this:
A Preacher and a Rabbi who knew each other had dreams of each other’s Heavens.
The Preacher described his disturbing dream/vision to the Rabbi: a bustling city, full of people living their lives – working, playing, eating, drinking, etc.
“That’s funny,” the Rabbi replied. “Last night I had a dream of your Heaven – a small town of white houses, all behind white picket fences,” etc.
“What were the people in Heaven like?” the Preacher asked.
“What people?”
That.
Contrast that with becoming so Spiritual that like a Pneumatic Gnostic you cease to be human, only Spirit.
Like a Silicon Valley Zillionaire planning to upload himself to the Cloud at The Singularity (leaving the bag of meat behind) and live forever in Digital form.
(Begging the question: Is Max Headroom one and the same with Edison Carter?)