Instagram picture by builder of the mansion -22 foot high ceiling-They can cram lots of students in here.
Here in the UK, we’ve now got an evangelical television channel – it’s the kind of thing that will be very familiar to everyone in the United States, especially if you’ve ever turned on your TV set on a Sunday morning, and seen one holy man after another, urging you to send money so that Jesus can buy a new cadillac. Apparently, Jesus can’t save the world until he’s been properly kitted out with a million-dollar mansion, and a private jet – some small print in the Gospels that we must have missed. Pat Condell
Julie Roys posted Rape Victim Whose Story Ousted Paige Patterson Says Cedarville Pres Thomas White Was Part of Cover-Up
This person was Megan Lively who came forward with her story which resulted in the ouster of Paige Patterson. Lively also had contact with Dr Tom White, now President of Cedarville University, who is now in trouble over the Andy Moore mess as Wilhelm wrote in Anthony Moore & the Connection Between Grace Church, The Village Church and Cedarville University.
Lively also was required to meet with Mrs. Joy White for counseling during that period of time. I’m sure that was helpful…
According to Roys:
The rape victim whose story prompted the board at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary to fire former President Paige Patterson in 2018 has just come forward with a major revelation.
The woman, Megan Lively, says Cedarville University President Thomas White participated with Patterson in the alleged cover-up of her rape in April 2003. Lively added that in the months that followed, she was required to meet multiple times with White’s wife, Joy White, now an assistant professor of women’s studies at Cedarville, as part of a “disciplinary plan.”
“I was made to feel like what happened to me was my fault,” Lively said. “The sexual assault was downplayed,” Lively added, saying that those involved tried to convince her that what had been done to her was not rape.
Well, it appears that White is following in the footsteps of his mentor, Paige Patterson, who hoped to live out his life on the campus of SWBTS in a fancy mansion. However, he lost that option, thanks in no small part to Megan Lively who bravely faced off with Patterson and the powers that be. I wonder if White’s mansion will rival Patterson’s? He seems to share the same propensity las Patterson for blasting the life out of beautiful animals. How many heads will roll and hang in this *mansion next to Jesus?*
How did I come to call the mansion that? Today, Todd Wilhelm posted Thomas White – Servant of the Most High or Just Another Entitled Baptist Leader Living Large off of the Donations of Others ?
Todd is far more gifted at technical stuff than I. He applied his considerable skills to take us on a tour of Tom Whites new mansion. If you need a good laugh, I have posted his hysterical video here. But please, please, please, go to his blog and read it in its entirety. To make it doubly worth your while, Todd has another similarly styled video featuring Patterson’s house that was under construction when it all came down. I wonder if White will follow in his BFF’s footsteps?
In the immortal words of Kurt Vonnegut: “And so it goes.”
9,000 square feet. Wow. I can remember when a 2,000 square foot home was a pretty good sized house. My folks and my three siblings, all six of us, lived in a 1200 square foot ranch. I don’t know how we survived! Anyway, these big shot Evangelical “leaders” will not see that their materialism is inconsistent with the scripture they profess. Aren’t we supposed to be other-worldly? Spiritually minded? Looking for a city whose builder and maker is God? (Hebrews 11). I guess not. The message I have been getting from the big shots is, we’re supposed to sacrifice while they live like royalty. What’s the moral of the story? All Christians are equal. Some are more equal than others.
I cannot imagine ever needing a home that size.
So is this house for the president of the university or the personal possession of White for life? In either case I noticed a certain lack of book shelves.
A university president should likely have a fairly big house for entertaining including having as guests visiting VIPs (e.g., graduation speaker, eminent scholars giving a lecture series, etc.). Entertainment would include regular functions for new faculty and their spouses, emeritus faculty and their spouses, and inviting for dinner of regular faculty and students for free ranging discussions. Also cultivating alumni and donors.
Bigger events can be at the campus, where all manner of hosting spaces exist. The rest can occur at a home of reasonable size.
This brought to mind a certain situation from Scripture: “Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We must have a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to judge us, to go out before us, and to fight our battles” (1 Samuel 8:19-20). How about these institutions labeling themselves as Christian consciously — perchance even “radically” — differentiate themselves from other institutions by incorporating Christian principles on things financial?
To quote the great poet and sage Mel Brooks,
“It’s good to be the king.”
The public university near me has a hotel for these kinds of events and to host those to who visit. It’s also a place where a lot of students can do campus jobs. All the proceeds go to the school.
I don’t think these giant leadership houses are for the true benefit of the whole school.
My daughter and I went on a college visit last year to Cedarville for nursing day. We both were impressed with the things the director of admissions told us in his opening remarks. The president (White) was also supposed to speak but he was out of town so his taped interview was shown. We attended chapel which happened to be the day that kids running for student body did a Q&A session and they delivered speeches. One of the couples running (they were all male/female duos) didn’t fit the “mold.” They talked about inequality on campus and not fitting in/being excluded if you weren’t part of “the group.” (I always wondered what happened to them because it would have been considered scandalous in Christian school circles to speak as they did. And, I found it strange that CU had hundreds of prospective students/parents attend that chapel service. It was weird.) Anyway, we then took our campus tour with our student guide. We were going through the rec center and our guide gushed how Dr White frequently works out there. Lo and behold, there he is pumping iron. Strange, I thought he was out of town? The sweet girl giving us the tour was giddy seeing him and having us see him too. I remember thinking specifically at that point that something was off. He’s treated like a rock star. Why? And, why did they lie and say he was out of town? There were just enough red flags that made us decide $31k a year wasn’t worth it.
His house has the potential to be as nice as the mansion that the President of my “secular humanist” State University has. My Presidents has many large events (but we are a HUGE University) at his “house”, and it really is just an extension of the Big State U…. except they can have lots of booze at the mansion parties..
I wonder if Cedarville U Plans to have booze at their “events” ….
I also did not see any stuffed animal heads at my University Presidents mansion..
Jesus wept.
So, you were told he was out of town nd then saw him doing his favorite thing…pumping iron. What a guy! Thank you for reporting this.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Thankfully, your president wasn’t mentored by Patterson.
This is a perfect example of immodesty. Whereas other presidents at other Christian schools tend to live in modest abodes, here is this gargantuan house at CU (yes, a la Paige and Dorothy Patterson’s self-aggrandizement). The Whites already live in a stately Georgian mansion, which was originally built by President Paul Dixon and his wife Patsy. That house was good enough for them and for Pres. Brown and his wife Lynn. It’s a gorgeous house–and large. One would probably not say it’s “modest” either, but it is presidential and within reason.
White and his posse have made sure to impose a narrow definition of modesty onto CU women–it’s their job to dress modestly so men don’t lust, for instance. And the all-male “modesty panels” reinforce that view. Meanwhile, the full understanding of modesty is so much more than this. I Thessalonians 4: 11-12 instructs us, “to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life,” to work diligently “so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.” Yet, daily, White continues to lose the respect of outsiders. And who is paying for this house? And who will pay the electric bills? the property tax? the cost of the upkeep? We understand that a Trustee (or two?) has donated the money for the house’s construction, but why such an immodest structure? And again, why donate money for an elaborate mansion like this when the Whites are already living in a mansion, albeit a smaller one? Why not donate money for student scholarships? or donate to the endowment, which at CU, is a miniscule $16 million? We also understand the Whites wish to care for Joy White’s aging mother and that is commendable. But couldn’t a mother-in-law suite been added on to the existing house at far less cost? And again, 9000 square feet?! And is this the White’s house or CU’s house for future Presidents, too? And what will become of the Georgian mansion the Dixons built? These are all legitimate questions because students and parents alike have the right to know if tuition dollars will be allocated to pay for this house’s upkeep. We already know that the Whites have CU maintenance workers do the lawn work and pick up the dog poop at the Georgian mansion, so again, these questions are fair.
Modesty also entails thinking soberly of oneself, not more highly than he ought (Romans 12:3). As for the visiting parent’s comment here (ewelk66) about White’s weight lifting (yes, how strange all around! and how terribly disturbing about the deception, too!) and the students who treat White like a “rock star” (i.e., an idol), we’re reminded of I Samuel 16. Samuel sees the physically impressive Eliab and says, “Oh, this is the man!” But the Lord says to him, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
Besides being free to do other things, another advantage of taping a presentation is not having to answer questions or react to observations in person and in real time.
I think his new house is big enough to have an exercise room/private gym installed; that way in the future the school doesn’t have to be caught lying that he is “out of town” when he’s working out instead of performing his real job!
The troubling thing about this is not that White wasn’t truthful about his whereabouts (it’s apparent what kind of character he is), but that CU staff covered for his deception. After a while, an organization takes on the personality of its leader. Christian institutions need better examples of integrity in their leadership ranks … it should be expected, but sadly in too many places it is not there.
Must Keep Up with the Furticks.
P.S. A 9000 sq ft mansion should require eight or nine servants to maintain and keep clean.
Has DOCTOR White issued a call for Volunteers for Christ?
“Bungalow Bill” Patterson of Stained Glass Hagiography fame?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Continuing_Story_of_Bungalow_Bill
In the full words of the prophet Melvyn Kaminsky:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DxJ-zUtl60
All that’s needed is to surface the entire interior in Baltic Amber:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Room
P.S. Now he can finally live like a human being!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domus_Aurea
It’s never enough.
We humans always want more.
King David had quite a bevy of the finest courtesans the Crown’s shekels could buy, but it wasn’t enough.
Hey, I want a dog-washing station like that one!!
The kicker is, if you acknowledge that and factor it in, you can more-or-less control it.
Self-control and Wisdom, dudes, not Private Revelation Visions and Tongues.
Religion has always been a great business. This is no different than the Borgias and others of their ilk throughout time. Even the priests of ancient Israel got a free meal.
It bugs me that religion gets a pass on the taxes that most have to pay. Quite frankly it disgusts me.
But God/Jesus/Holy Spirit doesn’t seem to care, maybe his followers will act, but in a culture of compliance, I’m not holding my breath.
Not all Christians act like this but they really need to ask “What am I supporting?”
I can’t imagine keeping it CLEAN!
Jack,
“It bugs me that religion gets a pass on the taxes that most have to pay. Quite frankly it disgusts me.”
++++++++++++
it bugs me, too.
“it’s perfectly legal” (as one pastor responded) is not the issue, and misses the point entirely.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair. (i’ve seen this one floating around recenty)
.
.
i’d love for an accountant (or someone good with numbers… or general information wizard like jerome) to show a graph (because a visual drives home the point for those who ‘struggle’ with understanding it) with the following:
*the amount of $ taxes a church and someone with the pastor designation doesn’t pay in a given time period
*the bucket(s) that those tax dollars fill and the public services they fund
*the regions or people groups whose tax dollars fill those buckets
*and then a calculation showing the amount that those regions / people groups have to pay in order to subsidize the amount the churches and pastors don’t pay.
.
.
it would be eye-opening for people to see how much it costs the surrounding neighborhood or town to subsidize a church and its pastors.
Sarah,
i can’t imagine the energy bill.
i wonder who will end paying that.
Catholic Gate-Crasher, you must love your dogs to bits! That is a wonderful thing, and you seem like a person who does good to others.
However, I can’t help but think that Dr. Thomas White (or other people in positions of undeserved power or wealth) would read your comment differently:
“You see! They are just jealous of what I have. They would act as I do if they were in my position.”
Dr. White and his ilk always display an incredible ability to avoid moral questions by projecting their own faults onto everybody else: “See! I am not so bad compared to other people!” (Thus displaying a very relative sort of morality, despite what their theology preaches)
elastigirl,
Further, the tax-free status means they do not have to “file taxes”…. hence, much harder to get a handle on their finances… this is especially true of all the churches, and non-profits, that never publish a budget! For the life of me, I can not imagine ever attending a “religious organization” that does not publish it budget.. let alone give them my money… but then again, I do not think thee leaders are “special”…
All-male modesty panels?
We won’t have a spiritual awakening in the American church until leaders like this first get a rude awakening. I have a feeling that much of the Christian Industrial Complex won’t survive the Lord’s wake-up call when it comes … “For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God.”
Muff Potter,
Yeah. It’s pretty sad, isn’t it!
Scripture is full of examples of consequences of corruption, especially when it goes unchecked. It’s telling that it so often ends up with the leadership being the ones falling down on that.
That should encourage grievous wolf / hireling checks on a regular basis, yet we see again and again cronyism in place of accountability, oversight, and hard but necessary conversations. Priorities…
I don’t believe Mrs. White can imagine it either. Nor will she ever actually clean it.
It’s increasingly clear that the SBC has been leading the pack in this regard. From the lyrics of an old song “God don’t like it and I don’t either. It’s scandalous and a shame.”
Max,
nice to see you, Max! hope you’ve been alright.
elastigirl,
grew a little weary of fighting devils, elastigirl … but back in the battle again
I have the impression that a trend toward over-compensation of administrators and gradual devaluing and disempowering of the actual service providers, the faculty, has been occurring in secular colleges and universities for decades. I think that something similar has occurred in the healthcare system; perhaps it’s a feature of late stages of all institutions. CU may not be doing anything out of the ordinary.
This is not to defend the institution or its leaders; it’s simply to observe that this is “more of the same.” In the world and of it.
ishy,
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Now THAT will not be easy.
Didn’t Doug Phillips maintain a flock of single young women to clean and take care of the kids for free? I dunno, they probably got room and board, but I doubt they were paid.
At Liberty, they had a President’s mansion, though I think it actually predated the school and Falwell Sr. built the school around it. It had regular staff.
I wonder if many of the Christian colleges pay minimum wage or less to student workers to maintain these mansions? I wouldn’t be surprised if they got paid at all. I know Pensecola used to require all students work student jobs in exchange for tuition (but then they would not allow students to take full loads so they would end up stuck there for 6-7 years).
justicecollective,
Does anyone have a good number on the endowment? Looking at the school’s 990’s last night I thought it was multiples higher than that, or maybe that was my terrible cold speaking
The question.
This insanity is just ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. How embarrassing it is for all of Christendom that the world thinks of these jerks as evangelicals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1yX20oDv7I&t=2s
There is a strange dynamic in the Christian Industrial Complex where persons are worshiped over the person of Christ. Personality cults are prevalent within New Calvinism (Piper, Mohler, etc.). Apparently, Tom White had the right mixture of charisma, gift of gab, and gimmick to float to the top. Combine that with the right connections (Paige Patterson) and you, too, could be President at CU … or a rock star.
Probably not.
“It’s a MINISTRY(TM).”
justicecollective,
Unfortunately Christians have redefined “modesty” to mean Pelvic Issue and Pelvic Issues Only.
And as for “all-male modesty panels”, in Saudi and Talibanistan they’re called Sharia Courts and Religious Police.
In the news: Anyone have Macon, Georgia youth pastor Christopher Key on their radar?
Don Ho,
I prefer the words of Kosh in B5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qYbVQu7YAQ
I’m from the homeschooling movement of that period of time, and was active on the blogs. According to someone I know who went to his Church, yes, they did have some young women from the church who helped Beall.
When I was a student at Cedarville (in the early 90’s) – there was a large estate associated with the campus that was known as the President’s mansion. Dr Dixon and his wife lived there. It was my understanding that this property was treated much the same as a parsonage – meaning that when Dr Dixon was no longer president, he would vacate the property, and the incoming president would take up residence at the mansion. While I’m certain Dr White’s new construction is much grander than the existing property known as the President’s mansion, the current house is nothing to sneeze at.
Dr and Mrs Dixon used to have the senior class over to their house for an afternoon in the spring as a graduation open house with appetizers. This was an annual event; however, I am not aware of any other student events taking place on their property. It was considered their home and treated with an appropriate level of respect.
SoSickOfAbuseEnabling,
“How embarrassing it is for all of Christendom that the world thinks of these jerks as evangelicals.”
++++++++++++
where i live i generally don’t volunteer that ‘i’m a christian’. it is viewed as reprehensible, thanks to so many jack@$$es-for-jeebus (can’t bring myself to spell his name next to jack@$$es).
…and i’m on their side.
(truly, my beliefs no longer resemble what is “christian” these days. they’re still the beliefs i had growing up in church – they haven’t changed. my silly religion has.
actually, i don’t consider it my religion anymore. not really.)
Moral equivalency on their part (and of the RCC) is always superior.
Samuel Conner,
“I have the impression that a trend toward over-compensation of administrators and gradual devaluing and disempowering of the actual service providers, …perhaps it’s a feature of late stages of all institutions.”
++++++++++++
sounds like you understand some things i have no idea about.
the late stages of all institutions…. what happens next to institutions?
is there a final end? does a rebirth happen? something better, by chance?
(i’m really wanting some good news…)
elastigirl,
Ben Franklin’s famous commentary on the Constitution comes to mind, “We’ve made a republic, if you can keep it.”
I think there is some good news, or at least grounds for hope — the proportion of people in the general population who destroy institutions by using them for their own purposes is relatively small. OTOH, I think that this kind of person tends to be more numerous, as a proportion, in the upper reaches of the institutions. There is no shortage of skilled, conscientious, and good-hearted people. Things will need to be torn down and re-built. And perhaps when they are rebuilt, they will be rebuilt in ways that are less vulnerable to the abuses that have been destroying institutions of all kinds.
As I understand it, in the old days, the faculty of universities were kind of like a senate and had a lot of influence over policy. Power has shifted from them toward administrators, and, not surprisingly, so has pay and perks. Today, many universities employ numerous contract “faculty” — adjuncts == who are compensated very poorly and have few or no benefits. University administration has arguably become something like the “rentier class” in economic theory, extracting more value than it contributes.
Maybe new forms of university will arise that are organizationally like worker-owned cooperative businesses. Co-ops are IMO much better than conventional manager-owned or remote share-holder owned enterprises because the interests of the owners are closely aligned with the interests of the employees on whom the future of the enterprise depends.
Short-termism and corporate looting are much less likely in such an organization.
So yes, a re-birth may be possible, but it may not be a rebirth of the current institutions so much as the birth of better forms of organizing work to accomplish needed purposes.
I think that one might harbor similar hopes concerning the churches.
Be of good cheer, but don’t be complacent.
elastigirl,
Elastigirl
( I’m really wanting some good news…)
John 16:33 is by far the best news we could ever hear…..
I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows.
But take heart, because I have overcome the world…
New living translation
Handmaids for the Commander’s Household?
The American church has ventured so far into the world, it might as well live like it. There were no celebrities in the early church, only martyrs. How many of these stars would recant their faith if put to the test? The worst persecution these boys get is to become the subject of a blog.
How long Lord? When Lord when?
Couldn’t he have just as well went to auction and bought some Negroes?
After all, Paul never did condemn slavery.
Looks like a McMansion, except that it’s not hemmed in by other McMansions on either side. Similar concept to a Mega McChurch. Maybe Cedarville has become a McUniversity.
Samuel Conner,
“University administration has arguably become something like the “rentier class” in economic theory, extracting more value than it contributes.”
+++++++++++++
i’m really sick & tired of value (and values) measured in terms of dollars. as if that’s the only thing that matters.
you mention ‘the late stages of all institutions’ — is there some kind of philosophical idea or sociological theory of the life cycle of ‘institutions’, breaking it down into stages?
(i’m getting the feeling that something everyone seems to know which i somehow missed is happening again)
Benn,
“I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows.
But take heart, because I have overcome the world…”
+++++++++++++++
thank you, Benn. that was very kind.
it’s one of those bible things that i’ve heard a billion times & it’s been ringing in my ears for so long i don’t notice it anymore. it’s like it’s liquefied and no longer holds any shape. or like, eating or drinking something for so long that you can’t taste it anymore.
i’ll cut the metaphors and just say i no longer know what it means. it just bounces off.
what does it mean that Jesus “overcame the world” and how did he do it, and how should that give me peace?
I can only speak for myself here.
But for me, it means that in a world full of bad poo-poo that can overtake me at any given point, I have a hope (not certainty) of a better resurrection and an inheritance in the world to come (Olam Ha-Ba).
In the mean time I’m like Dorothy Gale clicking her ruby slippers together…
Muff Potter,
“I have a hope (not certainty) of a better resurrection and an inheritance in the world to come (Olam Ha-Ba).”
+++++++++++++
hope, not certainty – because…it’s silly nonsense to put God in a box of human conclusions?
a better resurrection… a subsequent resurrection better than the one you’re currently experiencing (as in, resurrections are repeated events)?
[afterall, the box of human conclusions doesn’t have enough room in it for all the possibilities that fill in the gaps of what wasn’t recorded in the bible]
or, a resurrection to a life that is better than the conditions of life on earth at present?
elastigirl,
How did he overcome the world, ( I.e. everything) ?
Friday dead…. Sunday RISEN!
1. Will Dr. White’s wet bar be stock with any alcohol which is in direct violation of the school’s code of conduct. (https://www.cedarville.edu/-/media/Files/PDF/Human-Resources/Drug-Free-Schools.pdf?la=en&hash=5FA3EFE54E835593E78D9A2E3B3CC3581809AC93) 2. CU $40K+ yearly cost makes this the WHITE HOUSE not the one in D.C. (https://www.cedarville.edu/Offices/Financial-Aid/Cost-Information/Block-Pricing.aspx) 3. Is there a room for Dr. Moore next to the Master bath? Todd did an excellent job on this humorous video yet a sad state of Christianity in 2020.
It’s more nearly, at least from my perspective, “folk wisdom”. Google “iron law of institutions” and extrapolate that over time. Combine that with the incidence of sociopathy in the general population (a few %) and the reality that control of organizations is appealing to people who like to control others. The decline is IMO not surprising, sort of an inevitable form of social entropy. It takes work to resist it; it’s possible to do, but is hard work and, unfortunately, in recent decades most of us have drunk the Kool-Aid in terms of believing the claims that the changes being made were desirable from the standpoint of improving the performance of the various kinds of enterprise. That’s how off-shoring of manufacturing was sold to us, more or less. I think similar thinking prevails in many places.
I’m sure that there is a subdivision of sociology devoted to study of the dynamics and life cycles of organizations. Whether the understanding it has produced has been able to influence the objects of its study in beneficial directions? I doubt it.
People like him think they can get away with subjugating women, just like the New Cals. And they do for awhile…
However… (warning: pretty graphic)
https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/04/douglas-phillips-lawsuit-woman-alleges-sexual-mental-abuse-against-the-former-president-of-vision-forum.html
Benn,
“How did he overcome the world, ( I.e. everything) ?
“Friday dead…. Sunday RISEN!”
+++++++++++++++++
i understand the theory of it. how does it impact my day? how does it help me in a practical way with daily tasks, pressures, disappointments, complex problems to solve?
“Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Passerby,
well, that was sure helpful
Passerby,
how about an thoughtful response instead of quoting scripture at me?
elastigirl,
You have your focus on the wrong things.
I used Google Earth Street View to look at a recent view of former President James Jeremiah’s home in Cedarville. It was many years ago that my husband and I lived in an apartment down the street from Dr. Jeremiah’s modest brick ranch home. I know homes are more grandiose now. CU is 3x the student body size when we were there, but this home is exorbitant. Things that are reported here at WW continue to add to my growing list of reasons why I no longer support my school. I enjoyed doing that. They have lost their way, in multiple areas, under White. I agree with the comment that the wealthy trustee(s) could better spend their money elsewhere on campus. I know several trustees. How are they allowing this? White needs to resign, or be removed.
Max, do you remember the expression “Of the world but not in it”?
It refers to the parallel Christianese culture of “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
I am NOT making up any of these:
“GodTube – Just like YouTube, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
“Christian Chirp – Just like Twitter, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
“Testamints – Just like Altoids, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
“Praise Ponies – Just like My Little Pony, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
There’s even a company called “Wear Scripture” that sells COVID face masks with Bible Verses printed on them!
Now you know how I became allergic to Christianese.
I don’t think a lot of them CAN think, only Quote! Quote! Quote!
That will have to wait until a Christian Nation(TM) is restored.
By any means necessary – “DEUS VULT!”
Passerby,
ok, let’s run with this. where do you think my focus is, and where do you think it should be?
Just like Jesus, except…
Headleass Unicorn Guy,
Since you mentioned “Ponies”, I give you a gem from strange and fertile mind of Robot Chicken:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52_YATRdS2o
And we got sold a bill of goods (outsourcing our manufacturing base).
And I’ll leave it at that so as not to earn myself a spell in time-out land…
Samuel Conner,
Not an “impression”… it has happened…. the centralization of power with the administration, with the subsequent removing of power from the faculty…….. I could go on and on…
. there was a great article in the “Chronicle of Higher Education”.. about the train wreck COVID-19 has wrought on Johns Hopkins..
Rarely do hard-core Biblicists ever have an original thought or an original response outside of Scripture.
It’s tacitly forbidden because anything ‘human’ is always suspect, and by proxy, most likely from Satan.
Years ago when I was still a captive in the Calvary Chapel cult, I heard the Mary and Martha vignette used to put down and beat down women more times that I care to count.
Maybe I missed something, but all we have is White’s word that the trustees wanted to pay for the house themselves. As we saw in this thread, he gets the staff to lie about his whereabouts so he doesn’t have to address incoming students, so why not other things?
So do you?
Do as I say, not as I do, right?
elastigirl,
Many of the churches and non-profits that I have been connected with invest significantly in their local communities with financial aid and financial counseling, social investment, spiritual direction, etc to homeless, inner city, people who have lost jobs, and the list goes on. Yes, there are certainly churches and non-profits that take and don’t give back. But a blanket statement about churches and non-profits needs to be rethought. There are no government entities that helping these individuals.
I would recommend reading Gary Habermas in his book “The Risen Jesus & Future Hope.” Last chapters especially helpful as to how the resurrection of Jesus gives hope for today. He writes as one who wrestled with whether or not Christianity was true after the death of his wife and explains how he found/finds hope because of the resurrection. He also provides some solid reasons to believe Jesus truly rose — though each individual will have to look at the evidence and ultimately decide for themselves. Hope that helps!
It is quite irritating isn’t it?
I find it especially interesting the people who act like you haven’t made a valid point when yours your own words, instead of just throwing out an (often unrelated) quote. Even if you are alluding to one! Or many.
Don Jones,
“I would recommend reading Gary Habermas in his book “The Risen Jesus & Future Hope.” Last chapters especially helpful as to how the resurrection of Jesus gives hope for today. He writes as one who wrestled with whether or not Christianity was true after the death of his wife and explains how he found/finds hope because of the resurrection.”
++++++++++++++
not a drive-by scripturing…. ok, now were’ talking.
can you go further on the thoughtful part?
in your thinking, how does the fact that Jesus rose from the dead impact a day in the life of me or anyone as we navigate through the challenges and pain of it? (i said fact, so i don’t disbelieve it.)
(he was dead – dead as this pencil sitting on my table; and then he became alive, just as if this pencil were to come to life and bend in the middle and stand up and start tapping dots for joy on my grocery store receipt…)
it’s remarkable, certainly. amazing. the ultimate party trick. but so what? buffy the vampire slayer did it, too. it’s neat he came back and surprised everyone — i mean, what – a – surprise! even showed up to make them breakfast. i’m sure that was very fun (and i mean that sincerely).
but so what? what is the gosh darn practical part??
i’m done pretending it means everything.
(i think i could plumb the philosophical depths of this thing with the right recreational substance…
but it strikes me that if we’re going to sing about it all the time with smiley faces and cover the globe with cross-stitching about it and make a hobby of doing drive-by scripturing about it, we should be able to answer this question
without the recreational substance.)
thoughtful response, please?
I believe Rudyard Kipling wrote a poetic rebuttal to the usual Mary & Martha sermon.
About how the hard work of the “Sons of Martha” create and maintain all the infrastructure that supports the “Sons of Mary” as they sit and quietly Contemplate.
“I HAVE A VERSE!”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
When you mentioned “Praise Ponies” I immediately thought of Robot Chicken’s “Apocalypse Ponies” parody of My Little Pony.
Elastigirl, let me recount a conversation I had with someone I was taking an online class with, I don’t know their name, or even if it was a man or a woman, but they made a statement about why they were taking the course in apologetics, they said, I just don’t think I can worship a god that allows evil and suffering. ( that is always the number one question, a moral complaint against God.)
We went back and forth, in a respectful discussion, and then they finally ask me for my honest opinion of what the repercussions of that decision would untilmately hold.
I told them that choosing not to believe in a God that allowed evil and or suffering would result in their ruin ( imho)
With the time I have spent on Dee’s blog I have enjoyed your passion, you would be one of the ones I would like to meet one day, but I sense you, like many others here don’t hold to inerrancy and sufficentcy of scripture
I will respect that, so it is hard for me to understand how scripture doesn’t sustain you in the everyday trials that we all have to endure.
By God giving us freedom, ( non Calvinist freedom), we are all open to pain, suffering and disappointment
Men that do that overstress the service part of Mary and Martha’s ministry and miss the essential truth about Mary “sitting at the foot of Jesus” to learn who He is, trust Him, and develop an ability to hear His voice. If they truly heard Him speaking, they wouldn’t subordinate female believers the way they do … they haven’t sat at the foot of Jesus.
Benn,
“but I sense you, like many others here don’t hold to inerrancy and sufficentcy of scripture
I will respect that, so it is hard for me to understand how scripture doesn’t sustain you in the everyday trials that we all have to endure.
By God giving us freedom, ( non Calvinist freedom), we are all open to pain, suffering and disappointment”
+++++++++++++++++
thank you for the kind comment, Benn.
i imagine we understand “inerrant” and “sufficient” differently.
as for scripture sustaining me or anyone in everyday trials, seems to me that entails reading certain verses / passages and thinking about them. yes, i find certain verses/passages helpful at times in a very practical sense.
i’m specifically wondering about the fact the Jesus came back to life (to put it in easily digestible language), and the practical implications of that.
i’m tired of gazing at information. the point of which is getting a magical high from the mere idea of the information.
i’m looking for the usefulness, the practicality of the information.
i mean, if God/Jesus/Holy Spirit aren’t useful and practical in our daily lives, we might as well worship Ganesh (who makes for neat-looking wall art).
Believing in god or read scripture won’t make all pain go away, nor does it solve all practical problems.
‘Sustain you’ is kind of vague, btw. If i don’t eat i will die, no matter how many verses i read. If i have no friends to speak to, i will still likely be lonely, even reading scripture.
(And as we’ve discussed before around here, ‘inerrancy’ usually translates to ‘believe what X person says this means’ in practical terms).
Lea, have you ever had a close friend, family member that went through something far greater than you have had to endure, ( at least up until that point in your life), and by watching them get through it, gave you hope, encouragement, that you could overcome our own issues
Sustenance a synonym for sustain
Job 23:12. …. I have not turned away from the words of his lips. I have stored up the words of his mouth. They are worth more to me than the food I need…..
Bridget,
No Joy White won’t clean it. She’s too busy, remember? She spends all of her time educating her children…except when she’s collecting a paycheck from the University as a professor. Ooooh, I just thought of something! I wonder if her tenure review interview will be as comprehensive as the one Reno gave Ruth Markam? Likely not. And, should the White’s survive this debacle, she’ll probably make tenure early.
Are you seriously quoting dictionary at me bud? This is horribly condescending and not a response.
Watching someone else go through something is not the same as going through it yourself. You still have to endure your own pain. I’m leery of the way this is being discussed on your part, as if one is just skipping through the actual pain because of a few bible verses. Encouragement can come from friends, family, and religion, but if you are going through something, ‘overcoming our own issues’ as you put it (which…i have thoughts about but ok), you have to ultimately use your own strength to do so.
I think when you’re in the storm, it isn’t the minutia of apologetics that gets you through regardless.
On your Job quote…i suppose that’s a response to my point about food? Because if Job got no food he would have died. Everyone around him died, and just because he said words were ‘worth’ more, doesn’t mean that sustained his body.
So Dr. White asks, “Who will take better care of your kids—you or an underpaid worker? I know what the answer should be.”
Ah, but I have a follow-on question: Why would you underpay a worker?
So you (generic you) can beat the energy game and somehow achieve perpetual motion?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
CM,
I am laughing hysterically!
CM,
On ponies, while my mind went to the kelpies (voiced by two of the MLP voice actors) in Ducktales https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWomhG8WJ_U (about 30 seconds in)
Superapostles. The blogs were Galatians & II Corinthians. Took months to deliver and some got lost to posterity.
I’ve met superapostles, face to face, several protestant & catholic lots! Takes a lifetime to reshape oneself after.
Benn and Don,
What you’re not telling Elastigirl and me and the rest of us is that Ascending He distributed gifts differeing, which is what grace abounding is.
Power to care for the insider outsiders (where there aren’t any brownie points).
Power to see.
I am trying to be as thoughtful as I can. And because of that I am slow to respond.
Let me ask you to ask yourself a few questions. You don’t need to give me answers. Was my response not helpful because it was wrong? Because it bore no relationship to your problems at hand? Because it won’t work? Too difficult? Or because how the message was delivered?
Was what Jesus said to Martha helpful to her? But of course this is a totally bogus comparison. Martha revered Jesus and she knew him well. And Jesus didn’t exactly have the same credibility problem that I have here.
I would like to address a different question first, so that I can give you some idea at which angle I am coming from. If you think this will lead to somewhere useful, then I’d be happy to continue.
That question is do you believe or do you not believe? My guess is you want to believe but is struggling to find a good reason. You aren’t be the only one if that is the case.
Let’s be adults and apply some critical thinking. The bible is central to Christianity. To understate just a little bit, the bible is filled with inconsistencies. A few random examples:
Were the disciples in Jerusalem or where they in Galilee after Jesus’ death and resurrection? Did they lock themselves up in the upper room or did they go fishing in the Sea of Galilee which is a few days walk away?
The following can’t be both true, can they?
“Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.”
I don’t see a whole lot of other options given in this command. And God let David go free?
“If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.”
If a person that isn’t brain dead wants to believe, he/she will have to go through much mental gymnastics to get around all these. I have my own version that floats my boat, and others have theirs. Plenty can’t do it and leave the faith.
My suggestion is this: If you want to believe, go ahead and believe. Plenty of things in the bible don’t make much sense to me too. For example, if God can foresee everything, why did He create us, let us make a mess of ourselves, and to save our butts, send his Son to get nailed to the cross? Is that His concept of fun?
I’d suggest not to worry too much about all these. Keep these question in the far back of your mind, and only ponder on them once a while. Don’t dwell on them. Part of my mental gymnastic is just to accept that I don’t have the ability to understand.
If you don’t want to believe and want to take a detour. It is OK too. But from my observations, there isn’t anything out there that is better. But if you find one, please let me know about it.
HTH
P.S. It is usually much fun to see what happens when you poke a stick into something. See the tribal defense force sprung into action? You are well loved here. They have your back covered. Rejoice! LOL
elastigirl,
Oops. Forgot to address previous post to elastigirl.
I guess if you don’t *really* believe in the hereafter, you grab your mansion in the here and now.
More square footage for the mansion.
“APOCALYPSE PONIES…
PUNISHMENT FOR YOUR SINS!”
Years ago I “Gotcha!”ed Chaplain Mike over at Internet Monk with Praise Ponies. I mentioned hearing about them and some months later CM started an IMonk blog post with a link and “I thought HUG was joking. God Help Us All!”
“My Little Kelpie,
My Little Kelpie,
Glub Glub Glub Glub Glub…”
Yeah. They’re not the only ones to come up with that sort of thing. You find Kelpies occasionally in Furry Art and Kelpies as a subject got more popular when Bronydom took off. Some obvious opportunities for sick humor there.
Passerby,
Thank you, passerby, for the very thoughtful reply. I really appreciate the effort and your honesty. I’ll respond.
Your comment wasn’t helpful because it was like lobbing a glib pat answer, without any attempt to understand my very honest question. it was shades of “let them eat cake”. (shades of it).
it also wasn’t helpful because I wasn’t sure what your point was. Those verses are loaded plenty of hidden agendas.
Finally, it wasn’t helpful because it had absolutely nothing to do with my question.
I sort of felt my question, if it was going to be responded to at all, deserved the courtesy of an honest effort at honest depth of original thought. a direct question, that deserved an attempt at exploring what is surely a multi-dimensinal answer.
but thank you for engaging now.
I haven’t a clue if what Jesus said to Martha was helpful to her. Perhaps it was. Doesn’t mean I or anyone shouldn’t question and scrutinize and seek to understand something. I’m quite certain Jesus would talk to me and explore topics til the wee hours, with cigars.
You ask do I believe or do I not believe? Believe what, exactly?
i’ll just lay it out there plainly. I was born into Christianity, grew up in church, attended until a few years ago, volunteering all the way.
I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Deborah, the Marys, Junia, Peter and Paul…. I believe in Jesus Christ the Messiah and the Holy Spirit. I’ve been baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit.
Now back to my question: (I think I’ve worded it a few different ways; here’s a composite)
in your thinking, how does the fact that Jesus rose from the dead impact a day in the life of me or anyone practically, as we navigate through the challenges, problems to solve, and pain of it?
I believe it does. Someone explore this with me.
Passerby,
I for one am not the tribal defence force.
Evidence for belief comes from the fruit of Holy Spirit action in the life of those we behold. In this basis we do a lot of inferring.
We don’t believe because it’s “stupid” to believe thank you.
Jesus’ words to Martha are aimed at you more than us, and at the megapastors & superapostles more than us.
Elastigirl was manifesting her sense of responsibility for her affairs. I know what that’s like because that’s how I have to get through life too.
It’s not right you should misuse Scripture to divide us from the more superior members of the Body of Christ. We’re where we are precisely because we are listening like Mary, already.
Passerby (a perilous sounding name) you make yourself sound like you don’t know Ascension and you don’t know Gifts Differing Distributed which is Grace Abounding.
Those of us who have the gift of mourning, accept our gift. Trust Holy Spirit in us. Thank you!
elastigirl,
I shot that verse and the follow up post out mostly because of haste and laziness, expecting you’d go lookup/read the relevant section of the bible to see what it tells you. I still think the story of the exchange between Jesus and Martha is pertinent. I should have known better to do it so thoughtlessly. It is a bit late for me to apologize, but it’s better late than never. And so I apologize for the pain and anguish that I’d caused you. I am sorry and I ask for your forgiveness.
Your question is an interesting one which I hadn’t really thought much about. But first why does it matter to you (for your daily activities) whether Jesus rose from the dead? I am not trying to dismiss your question. But I think to ask you to ask yourself why you need an answer to this question may reveal something at a deeper level.
Will you leave the faith if you can’t get a satisfactory answer? Or is it purely an intellectual curiosity? Or perhaps something in between them. Are you longing to have a truly “intimate” relationship such that you can tangibly feel the presence of the Father or Jesus is there with you in thick and thin, and you believe finding an answer to this question will help?
I have to do some web searches, and this is how I understand it. Death on the cross signifies and confirms Jesus’ humanity–He cares about us enough to lower Himself to become one of us. God took up the human form and experienced everything a human experiences–joy, sadness, pain, fear, etc. Resurrection confirms His divinity. And thus Jesus is human and God. He has a complete understanding of how it is like to live as a human, and has experienced first hand all our emotions. In short, He cares about us and can relate to us, and He is God.
Passerby,
Thank you, passerby, for the engagement.
You assume either i didn’t look up the section about Mary and Martha or else did’t know much about it. for the record, i know it extremely well and had no need to look it up and read.
Thank you for the apology – but no pain and anguish here (pretty extreme words, those!) mild irritation, maybe, but so mild it’s long gone.
to clear things up, the question is not whether or not jesus rose from the dead. i believe he did. i don’t need an answer to this question. I’m interested in the topic.
why do you assume that i have no intimate relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (unlike yourself?) you seem to be hunting for my personal flaws. i assure you, i have as many as you do, but i highly doubt my purely practical question is linked to any of them.
i base my question on this:
“…the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality[g] and [h]power and [i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.” (Ephesians 1)
yes, the fact that he rose from the dead certainly confirms his divinity (although i’d say this is not a stretch for God). I love Jesus’ humanity, and all the implications of it. It encourages me greatly.
but what interests me is the fact that the same power that caused Jesus’ lifeless body to animate and come to life with his soul/spirit/self is coming toward me (so to speak).
Jesus / Holy Spirit in me, on me. his hand joining with my hand. his stride joining with my stride. his voice joining with my voice. and clearly resurrection power is part of the mix.
i’m interested in exploring how that impacts how i do what i do in life (tasks, responsibilities, jobs, decision-making, problem-solving, communication, etc)
can’t think of anything more practical for carrying out “Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord”. For being productive in my life, doing things well. supernaturally, at times.
my question is a practical one.
i can’t be the only one who has ever wondered about this.
elastigirl,
Yes, eye popping. There should be a graph done for farmers, attorneys, doctors and school teachers retirement systems too. You would be shocked.
Conversely, a graph should be done of the trillions of dollars of resources Churches and volunteers expend in their community and around the world. Ultimately, society pays little in exchange for the benefits of charitable organizations and churches. (FYI: pastors pay taxes too with few ways to limit their income compared to all types of business owners.)
elastigirl,
As I started to write my reply, it became apparent to me that I am of no help to you. I think our belief systems are too far apart, along much mutual misunderstanding, making communication ineffective. By continuing, I think it will just devolve into a theological argument, which I am sure our hostess will not appreciate. So this is a mic drop moment for me, and I will wander off somewhere else.
Wish you the best.
Passerby,
thank you for your honest engagement.
actually, i’m not looking for help or in need of help, from you or anyone. I’m interested in exploring a topic with fellow human beings. Like, lingering at the Thanksgiving table with afterdinner beverages and just talking.
If we both agree to the nicene creed (as a baseline), how can our belief systems be far apart?
theological argument is nothing unusual at the wartburg watch. but there’s nothing controversial about my question. it’s hard to see that a contentious brawl would result. i think it would be a very interesting conversation.
thank you for the thoughtful exchange, though.
Dustin,
well, let’s see the graphs.
my greater point is monetizing ministry has big philosophical/ethical ramifications.
‘Need’ has nothing to do with it.
It’s like dragons — “MY HOARD’S BIGGER THAN YOURS!”
Wow.
😉
What a perfect response. *applause*