Jim Bakker Has a Stroke Amidst Getting Sued by the States of Missouri and NY for Fake Coronavirus Cure. Wait Until You Read HIs Lawyer’s Defense!


NASA

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard


I am currently on vacation with some of my family. So my posts may be shorter during this time. However, I have some really important posts coming that involve FBC Jacksonville and sexual harassment at Cedarville University.

The most interesting thing about this post is the reasoning of Jim Bakker’s attorney, Jay Nixon, a former Missouri Attorney General. Did you know that Bakker is helping us get our bodies ready for the end times?

Jim Bakker promoted a false cure for the coronavirus and is being sued by the State of Missouri.

NPR reported Missouri Sues Televangelist Jim Bakker For Selling Fake Coronavirus Cure

Televangelist Jim Bakker held up a blue and silver bottle, gazing intently at the label, as he questioned the woman sitting next to him.

“This influenza that is now circling the globe,” Bakker said on the Feb. 12 broadcast of The Jim Bakker Show,”you’re saying that Silver Solution would be effective.”

His guest, the so-called “natural health expert” Sherrill Sellman, falsely implied that the liquid would likely be effective.

…Silver Solution “has been proven by the government that it has the ability to kill every pathogen it has ever been tested on, including SARS and HIV,” Sellman continued. Four 4-ounce bottles could be yours, a message on the screen said, for just $80.

Selling a fake “treatment” for the COVID-19 disease violates state and federal law.

Here is the direct link to the lawsuit filled by the State of Missouri

The suit goes on to allege:

In a February 12, 2020, Jim Bakker Show #3861, Bakker has the following exchange with Sherill Sellman, referred to as a “naturopathic doctor” and “natural health expert”:

“Bakker: This influenza that is now circling the globe, you’re saying that silver solution would be effective.

Sellman: Well, let’s say it hasn’t been tested on this strain of the coronavirus, but it has been tested on other strains of the coronavirus and has been able to eliminate it within 12 hours.

Bakker: Yeah.

Sellman: Totally eliminate it, kills it. Deactivates it.

Bakker: Yeah.

Sellman: And it boosts your immune system so then you can support the recovery, ‘cause when you kill the virus then the immune system comes into action to clear it out, so you want a vibrant immune system as well as an ability to deactivate these viruses.

Sellman: Silver Sol has been proven by the government that it has the ability to kill every pathogen it has ever been tested on including SARS and HIV.

Bakker then offers Silver Sol products for viewers should they offer donations to the show at levels such as $80 or $125.

A former Missouri Attorney General claims that Bakker is not a villain but a victim who is only helping us get our bodies ready for the end times!

St Louis Public Radio posted Jim Bakker Is Not A Coronavirus Villain, Former Governor Says which just goes to show that money appears to speak. Pay attention to his reasoning. .

But a former Missouri attorney general says Bakker is the real victim.

Now a partner at the St. Louis law firm Dowd Bennett, Jay Nixon is the state’s former governor, as well as its attorney general from 1993 to 2009. He is now representing Bakker in the lawsuit.

On St. Louis on the Air Friday, Nixon explained that Bakker has a First Amendment right to urge viewers of “The Jim Bakker Show” to get their bodies ready for the end times, even if the methods of doing so might not hold up to secular scrutiny.

According to Nixon, selling this stuff is Bakker’s right as a religious person.

That means, Nixon said, the government has to tread carefully in curtailing his actions. In a motion to dismiss filed on Monday, he argues that the state’s request for an injunction violates Bakker’s right to practice his religion. If Bakker’s “sincerely held religious belief” holds that Silver Solution was “made available to this generation by God to prepare for … end times,” Nixon writes, the government can’t seek to silence him.

That’s the case even if Silver Solution doesn’t work, Nixon alleges. And it’s the case even though Bakker profits from purchases of Silver Solution

…Nixon acknowledged that his client’s history has done him no favors in the court of public opinion.

“We all recognize that Jim Bakker has made some significant mistakes, and he’s paid for those mistakes,” he said. “But to me, I just believe that everyone, regardless of their background, deserves to be treated equally and fairly by the law.”

In the meantime, the State of New York has joined in. NY AG Letitia James orders televangelist Jim Bakker to quit advertising coronavirus cures.

In the midst of the lawsuit, Bakker has suffered a stroke but is still having *God-sightings.*

According to there New York Post Televangelist Jim Bakker suffers stroke during coronavirus legal battles. According to his wife Lori, Bakker has been working so hard to bring you prophets and guest that he has suffered a stroke. Here is a link to the Facebook page post.

However, don’t worry, Bakker is apparently having God-sightings and dreams that he will present to us soon.Get your wallets ready, folks.

In her announcement, Lori seemed to acknowledge the lawsuit by writing: “As a family and staff, we continue to fight the good fight of faith and take a stand against the evil forces and hatred that has come against our ministry. In Jim’s words, this has been the most vicious attack that he has ever experienced.”

While Bakker rested, Lori claims he had a God-sighting noting: “He is still dreaming and hearing from the Lord, and he already has a powerful word to deliver when he returns to the air.”

You may find the comments on Facebook indicative of the old saw by Mark Twain.

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Comments

Jim Bakker Has a Stroke Amidst Getting Sued by the States of Missouri and NY for Fake Coronavirus Cure. Wait Until You Read HIs Lawyer’s Defense! — 86 Comments

  1. On St. Louis on the Air Friday, Nixon explained that Bakker has a First Amendment right to urge viewers of “The Jim Bakker Show” to get their bodies ready for the end times, even if the methods of doing so might not hold up to secular scrutiny.

    Note the Christianese snarl word “Secular(TM)”.

    While Bakker rested, Lori claims he had a God-sighting noting: “He is still dreaming and hearing from the Lord, and he already has a powerful word to deliver when he returns to the air.”

    Private Revelations and End Times tie-ins…
    Where have we seen this combination before?

  2. Fisher: What does one even say in the face of such insanity?

    Bakker says he is having “god-sightings”. Wonder who that god is?

    It would seem: Once a scammer, the scamming continues.

    There are those who reform via Jesus. George Müller was a liar & a thief, but three days in jail was a come-to-Jesus event for him, and he changed, never to be the same again.

    Jail time didn’t work the same for Bakker, apparently.

  3. Jay Nixon is trying to carve out an (IMHO) religious exception to the various state and federal acts that regulate merchandise and drugs. I cannot begin to express how extremely dangerous such an exception would be. We already have people who claim to be “bishops” in a “church” who push what is essentially a commercial bleach product that is supposed to cure anything.

    I’d also note that the Food and Drug Administration didn’t buy the whole “we are a church” argument from “Genesis 2 Church” last month and sent them a warning letter anyway.

    https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enforcement-and-criminal-investigations/warning-letters/genesis-2-church-606459-04082020

    Then, on April 17, the Department of Justice filed suit against “Genesis 2 Church” and its principals in Florida (press release with links to legal docs in it):

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-seeks-end-illegal-online-sale-industrial-bleach-marketed-miracle-treatment

    I’m thinking the only reason Bakker and his outfit have not been hauled into federal court is because the state got there first. I’d remind Bakker and Jay Nixon that the Missouri Merchandising Act is not the same as the US Food and Drug Act. That is to say, the Feds could also sue and Bakker and his attorney (WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER, but yeah, Bakker can have representation) would have to go up against the feds.

    Let me also point out that there are other silver sellers the US Department of Justice has gone after. There is a guy named Gordon Pedersen, who lives in Utah, and who was selling silver solution under the names “My Doctor Suggests LLC” and “GP Silver LLC”. A federal judge ordered Pedersen to cease and desist from doing same under a temporary restraining order on April 30.

    https://kutv.com/news/local/judge-orders-utah-man-to-stop-selling-silver-as-coronavirus-cure (news report)

    https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Covid-19-Fraud-1.pdf (federal filing for those of us who just groove on legal docs)

    Additionally, the Federal Trade Commission is going after various multi-level marketing companies for claims made by their distributors that whatever they’re selling (oils, vitamins, whatever) can treat or relieve COVID-19. That’s like a basic violation of the Food and Drug Act. (The FTC also hammered on these companies for making specific income claims, which really has the companies in question and other companies freaking out right now.)

    The long and the short of it is that state and federal agencies are going to *crack down* if you claim that your special brand of snake oil can treat or cure COVID-19, absent any evidence. And I personally do not care if Jim Bakker is doing it for religious reasons, he’s still pushing an unproven drug and the government is right to go after him. I had a friend who was into colloidal silver and she took too much and turned BLUE. No kidding.

  4. Ava Aaronson: Jail time didn’t work the same for Bakker, apparently.

    One of Bakker’s cellies when he was in prison was one Lyndon LaRouche, who ended up there after a conviction for mail fraud. I can’t help but wonder that the one, leader of a fringe religious movement, didn’t swap tips with the other, leader of a fringe political movement.

  5. Someone tell Jim Bakker that I have a Special Golden Juice (SGJ) he might try. It is produced in my body and is emitted into a porcelain bowl. It is then bottled by the I. P. Freely Co. for distribution.

  6. As ludicrous as this argument is, I have heard people say the same thing, as to why medical quacks should be able to peddle falsehoods and people should be free to “make their own decisions.” Let’s hope the courts set this straight.

  7. Jim and Tammy used to host a children’s cartoon show on channel 36 when I was growing up in Charlotte. I am now convinced that show is his true calling.

  8. Ken P.:
    Jim and Tammy used to host a children’s cartoon show on channel 36 when I was growing up in Charlotte.I am now convinced that show is his true calling.

    This is a great insight. In his heart, Bakker is show business, not religion.

  9. Fisher,

    I feel exactly the same. There’s nothing you could say that would get you heard, as you’d just get a load of religious nonsense back

  10. Ava Aaronson: Bakker says he is having “god-sightings”. Wonder who that god is?

    Reminds me of James MacDonald (of HBC) and that meeting with the guy at a gas station in Wyoming who recognized him cold and Prophesied over him. No name, no solid location, no provenance, only JMac’s say-so. And the Prophecy was to “return to Ministry” and make his comeback, i.e. entirely to JMac’s personal advantage.

  11. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: We already have people who claim to be “bishops” in a “church” who push what is essentially a commercial bleach product that is supposed to cure anything.

    Ah, yes. “Miracle Mineral Solution”, i.e. DRINKING INDUSTRIAL BLEACH AS A CURE-ALL. Cancer, AIDS, Autism, COVID-19, you name it. “Incorporated” as a cult to get religious exemptions, with MMS as their sacrament. Cult spreading through Africa like COVID or AIDS.

  12. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Let me also point out that there are other silver sellers the US Department of Justice has gone after. There is a guy named Gordon Pedersen, who lives in Utah, and who was selling silver solution under the names “My Doctor Suggests LLC” and “GP Silver LLC”.

    And Alex Jones, who was selling high-priced Silver TOOTHPASTE with the same claim of COVID sure-cure.
    Probably with a CONSPIRACY angle of “What THEY Don’t Want You To Know!!!!!”

    Incidentally, Bakker’s price?
    He was charging $80 for a vial of the stuff, special deal of $125 for TWO vials.

  13. My ferret is smarter than both Bakker and his attorney. I was but a preteen/teen when the PLT scandal blew up but even before then I knew that Bakker was a fake. Still up to his old tricks. I guess the time behind bars didn’t cure his tastes for the lavish lifestyle.

  14. I think that the stupid people who listen to these guys deserve to get fleeced. A fool and his money are soon parted. All the more foolish if they claim to follow Christ.

  15. Ken F (aka Tweed): I suppose there is no money to be made in the Windex cure…

    Hey, remember the joke about the scary vampire voice that keeps saying “I am the Viper”?

    And finally says, “I am the Vindow Viper, and I’ve come to Vipe your Vindows.”

    Maybe some of our snake-handling brethren can use this to sell Vindex Vindow Viper as a cure-all.

  16. Jim Bakker is just like the con-man Moist von Lipwig in Terry Pratchett’s “Going Postal”.

    It seems to me that the First Amendment of the US Constitution these days exists in order to protect scammers’ scams, not religious freedom. And the things that are claimed get ever more extreme.

    Like those pastors who claimed that including churches in the ban against meetings above a certain number of people is religious persecution. How can it be persecution if it applies to ALL meetings for ANY purpose?

    Is it “religious persecution” if the law (that is not in any way religious in content and that applies to anyone) also applies to you?

    May American Christians never find themselves in a situation where they learn the meaning of “religious persecution”!

  17. Gus: May American Christians never find themselves in a situation where they learn the meaning of “religious persecution”!

    Exactly! They won’t know what hit them if they think this is persecution.

  18. Gus: Like those pastors who claimed that including churches in the ban against meetings above a certain number of people is religious persecution. How can it be persecution if it applies to ALL meetings for ANY purpose?

    One of my family members keeps insisting this is a horrible abuse of rights, but doesn’t seem to understand the basic principle of the constitutional terms. Many times in history, and in other countries now, people aren’t allowed to talk about certain things. In the US, we are not barred from going online and forming groups to discuss institutional and civic abuse. We’re not banned from talking about our faith online or starting online groups and blogs about our faith. This is what happens elsewhere.

    It’s a weird situation, there’s no doubt. But nobody is being persecuted. Maybe not able to control their members as much, but not persecuted. It could even be a good thing, allowing those abused by their churches and cults some space to reconsider.

  19. Ken F (aka Tweed): I suppose there is no money to be made in the Windex cure…

    “Just a spoonful of Clorox makes the temperature go down” (can’t post the YouTube link, wouldn’t pass)

    Abigail: I think that the stupid people who listen to these guys deserve to get fleeced.

    They can part with their money, fine, but being physically harmed by the reputed “cure” is another matter, and deserves any legal action against it.

  20. ishy,

    These people do not know their history…. many people would be shocked at some of things Abraham Lincoln did as President during the civil war with respect to blatant abuses of constitutional “rights”…
    we are currently “at war” with a enemy that is on the order of 100 -200 nanometers in size…

  21. me,

    I’ve read where they do work with viruses, but that is outside of the body. Some paints and coatings use silver as an anti-microbial.

  22. Nathan Priddis: While I dont know whom he celled with, Larouche was well known for political activites. His followers where supposedly sighted in airports frequently seeking potential adherents.

    Oh, yeah.
    The LaRouchies.
    Right up there with the Hare Krishnas at the airports.

  23. drstevej:
    Someone tell Jim Bakker that I have a Special Golden Juice (SGJ) he might try. It is produced in my body and is emitted into a porcelain bowl. It is then bottled by the I. P. Freely Co. for distribution.

    If you remember The Groove Tube, I’ve been doing the same with Brown-25.

  24. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Bakker … when he was in prison

    Our pastor at that time decided to strike up a penpal relationship with the jailed PTL-preacher-turned-con to render him forgiveness. Apparently, the cons find & BFF each other, maintaining their bad boy network.

    Yes, we left that “church”.

  25. Dave Leitner: My ferret is smarter than both Bakker and his attorney. I was but a preteen/teen when the PLT scandal blew up but even before then I knew that Bakker was a fake. Still up to his old tricks. I guess the time behind bars didn’t cure his tastes for the lavish lifestyle.

    I think Jay Nixon (attorney) is smarter than this, but he probably saw a good payday and maybe a chance to *shudder* “advance the law” in church/state issues. I’m just hoping he got a retainer from Bakker, who is still cut off from his credit card processor and can only accept checks. (How do I know this? I went to the website, added a bucket of food to a cart and attempted to check out. Echecks only!)

  26. Exing: Is this the same Lyndon LaRouche whose wive founded the extremist party / political cult “Bürgerrechtsbewegung Solidarität” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCrgerrechtsbewegung_Solidarit%C3%A4t) here in Germany? Do you have any citation for this?

    This is the very same Lyndon LaRouche. Here’s his Wikipedia. I’ve got it linked to the paragraph where it talks about him being Jim Bakker’s prison cellmate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_LaRouche#Imprisonment,_release_on_parole,_attempts_at_exoneration,_visits_to_Russia

  27. Pastor of 9Marks church in Maryland in the news for crimes in Pennsylvania:

    https://www.wcexaminer.com/news/former-tunkhannock-man-arrested-for-luring-1.2625240

    “…arrested two weeks ago in Waynesboro [Pennsylvania] and faces charges of luring children into a motor vehicle. It was Rev. Ronald Kline’s third such arrest in the past two years, and observers say the second one seems to have ended his tenure as a Baptist preacher.”

    “Cumberland Valley Baptist Church in Hagerstown, Md…had been a member of the Blue Ridge Baptist Association, a cluster of nearly 40 Baptist congregations in the greater Hagerstown area. But, if you visited the church’s website on the internet recently, you would have discovered the words, ‘Permanently Closed’.”

    “Rev. Bruce Conley, [the Baptist association’s] director of missions, said Friday, that the church had its last service in December, and this past January the property was sold to another denomination. He explained, ‘Its pastor was arrested twice for inappropriate behavior with young boys’. Rev. Conley declined to say…whether Kline had been sanctioned by the larger denomination.”

    more:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:f9iiYkUtASQJ:www.thetimes-tribune.com/news/former-tunkhannock-man-arrested-for-luring-children-into-car-1.2625485&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0

  28. Ava Aaronson:
    ION: A university just let go their entire Philosophy Department. Poof.

    Philosophy detracts from Culture War Uber Alles.
    (And who needs anything more than SCRIPTURE(TM)?)

  29. Jerome: “Rev. Bruce Conley, [the Baptist association’s] director of missions, said Friday, that the church had its last service in December, and this past January the property was sold to another denomination. …”

    This is fascinating. Merely take the parson out of it, and the steeple and people immediately prove themselves (pre-covid) dispensible!

    As for Bakker, he is part of something very big & very bad. I know those types, they create by “comedy” a small diversion from the big one.

  30. Ava Aaronson:
    ION: A university just let go their entire Philosophy Department. Poof.
    It was Liberty U. Info, link to dept, at blog friendlyatheist at patheos

  31. I guess Liberty U won’t be covering those evil philosophers like Justin Martyr, Augustine, Francis Bacon or Thomas Aquinas then.

  32. CM: I guess Liberty U won’t be covering those evil philosophers like Justin Martyr, Augustine, Francis Bacon or Thomas Aquinas then.

    Well, but, confusingly (according to the WSET story), “Liberty University added a lower level philosophy course that many students can now take in hopes that this will spark interest and later they can re add the department as an option.”

    So who’s going to teach the new course? Looks like they no longer have anyone with a background in Logic.

  33. Friend,

    I guess evil logician Isaac Watts (whose book became the standard text on logic at Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Yale, being used at Oxford for well over 100 years was also the “Godfather of English Hymnody” also escapes them.

    But then a Fundie and a Fundie U never fall to disparage all that fancy book learning why puffing themselves up with bogus academic credentials.

  34. me:
    I think some silver compounds do act as antibiotics: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6163818/If I remember correctly though, they may turn the patient blue/grey.And I don’t recall that they have ever worked with viruses.

    Yes, people who drink collodial silver, can turn blue. Unfortunately I only know a German page where you can read about it and see some photos. It is run by some (mainly German) skeptics (mostly atheists) who write critically about all that New Age stuff and Alternative medicine. Is it OK to post a link here?

  35. CM: But then a Fundie and a Fundie U never fall to disparage all that fancy book learning why puffing themselves up with bogus academic credentials.

    Weird, isn’t it? So many fundamentalists live out the Isaac Asimov quote that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge,” yet they revere diplomas from Certified Christian Colleges, as well as phony doctorates from Certified Christian Diploma Mills.

    Give me real, rigorous education any day. Challenge me to think new thoughts. Teach me how to do something besides speculate about the sins of others.

  36. Well Bakker could always get up and cry on TV like he use to due back in the 80’s on his old PTL Club with his now former and deceased wife. It worked well back then to raise money. It was sad all that came out including Bakker’s lavish lifestyle. I remember the sincere Christians working there being upset when it came out just how lavish Bakker lived when that came out.

    It is sad how Bakker basically repeated what he did in the past just with a few changes.

  37. Friend,

    The sad thing is that Christianity has had its scholarship, academics, use of logic, rhetoric, and the like for centuries. From Paul the Apostle to the Church Fathers, to people like Anselm of Cantebury, Aquinas, Bacon, all throughout the Reformation and right up to the modern era. Only in the late 20th and now the 21st century, do you see this pride of anti-scholarship, anti-intellectualism, and ignorance in modern (and especially American) Christianity. Doesn’t matter if they are Fundies, Pentecostals, Charismatics, etc. That streak is there.

  38. CM: That streak is there.

    Fortunately there are also some academically excellent seminaries that require thorough study of ancient Hebrew and Greek, as well as theology, homiletics, clinical pastoral care, a thorough psychological evaluation, and other elements that produce well-rounded graduates.

    Fundagelicals like to deride such folk as boring, but here’s the thing. If you have scholarly knowledge, you can turn the use of it on and off for different audiences. But if you don’t have it, you can never turn it on.

  39. I have been continuing to reflect on the “legal approach” that Baker’s lawyer is taken, and I continue to be greatly troubled…. At the core it addresses what is “reality” vs “religious ideology” .

    While some of you will “sigh”, I can clearly see if “Baker/lawyer” win, young earth creationism, YEC, could be pushed more. While I had ignored YEC for decades after being trained, and rejecting it 34-40 years ago, about 5 years I dug deep into the “latest” YEC arguments, “ scientific justification”. I was downright “shocked” at what they were suggesting. Given my years as an engineering faculty member, researcher, and grant reviewer, I can read the YEC arguments much more deeply/critically than teenager/college students.
    I can honestly tell you that these YEC are so dishonest, if average “Joe” in the pews realized it, there would be major ramifications…. the problem is, the YEC do a great job of “clocking” themselves in “scientific credibility” and personally attack those of us that call BS…

  40. Bakker has the following exchange with Sherill Sellman, referred to as a “naturopathic doctor” and “natural health expert” [who is peddling this silver solution]:

    Sellman’s name says it all…..

  41. “On St. Louis on the Air Friday, Nixon explained that Bakker has a First Amendment right to urge viewers of “The Jim Bakker Show” to get their bodies ready for the end times, even if the methods of doing so might not hold up to secular scrutiny.”

    Of course, those in the end times who are not going to love their lives to the death but will give their bodies over to destruction are discussed in the Bible. I missed any references to silver plague cures, but I don’t share this guy’s dreams and sightings…

  42. NW Hiker:
    Bakker has the following exchange with Sherill Sellman, referred to as a “naturopathic doctor” and “natural health expert” [who is peddling this silver solution]:

    Sellman’s name says it all…..

    Remember the movie Contagion and its “Forsythia Extract”?

  43. HUD,

    Contagion was an awesome movie and eerily prescient. Interestingly the Simpsons predicted Trump being POTUS, South Park predicted the election of 2016, and Family Guy predicted the stuff with Kevin Spacey.

  44. dlc: I would be interested in learning more about the dishonesty of the YEC you have looked into

    I have a Ph.D in experimental physics (Thesis defense at Duke U in 1967). I am a Christian by profession of faith and adult baptism.

    I expect Chalmers will address your post but here is a second reply.

    Check out GW170817 in wikipedia. This a capstone type of event, the observation of the spiraling together of two neutron stars and is the first such event observed by all the possible modalities. The Institute of Creation Research, ICR, does not refer to this on their website. Answers in Genesis, Ken Ham’s amusement park organization, has a brief and honest article that drifts off into la-la land at the end.

    The American Scientific Association, asa3.org, has much detail on the relationship of science and Christianity, and it’s membership consists of scientists and other who are willing to sign a succinct statement of faith. I am a member. Sadly, the tension between YEC advocates and science is real and not in any way beneficial to our faith.

  45. OldJohnJ,

    Thanks for the input. As an aside, what area of experimental physics was your Ph.D in anyway? My background is in Materials Science and Engineering, though I took the money and ran after the More S**t level (didn’t stay to get it Piled Higher and Deeper).

  46. CM: As an aside, what area of experimental physics was your Ph.D in anyway

    I measured some properties of solid He4 as a function of temperature.

  47. Christianity by definition makes fantastic claims. All religions do, whether it’s Christ’s death and resurrection or Muhammad’s night journey to Jerusalem on a flying horse. These amazing things in scripture (talking donkeys, massive hemorrhoid afflictions, blind seeing, dead raised) are taken literally by scores of believers so why would we expect them to believe that these amazing aren’t happening now? The field is ripe for the picking, be it Ken Hamm, Jim Bakker, Robert Tilton, Joel Osteen and on and on.

    I suppose all Christians make their peace with it in one way or another. Some of us find the dichotomy too much to handle and wind up falling away from whatever faith we were raised in. We see the dead aren’t being raised, my hemorrhoids are likely due to middle age and an office job, and no matter how much I try to entice them, my tropical fish do not speak to me (at least not when I’m around).

    I heard an interview with a flat earth believer – a belief that apparently is on the rise. His cosmology was basically a fringe Christian one – a rejection of the heliocentric worldview because it doesn’t fit with the bible and intelligent design. Why it has to be the Christian God and not any of the Hindu ones escapes me but whatever.

    No one knows the correct view but for me the best way is to go where the evidence takes you. Focus on the good – love thy neighbor, make peace not war, assist those in need.

    The other way leads to clowns blowing up cell towers believing that COVID is related to 5G technology.

  48. dlc,

    Take a look at the following “wiki”. I might add that this is a sound summary, I have personally looked their the “RATE” report myself:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RATE_project

    The jaw dropping statement is that these leading YEC advocates agree that radioactive dating indicates old earth; so they have to come up with the crazy idea that right after creation, and around the Noah Flood, the rate of radioactive decay had to “speed up” 1 million or higher times!!. What????? As is stated, the heat from that would boil off all of the water on the earth!!!
    I could go on and on, but……

  49. Jeffrey Chalmers,
    Reminds me of the time in the online comic “FreeFall” where the starry-eyed Flat Earther was high-pressure “Witnessing” about how “We only need to accelerate the planet to 99.999% of lightspeed!”

  50. Jack: Why it has to be the Christian God and not any of the Hindu ones escapes me but whatever.

    If you encountered him here in the West, it was because Christianity is the default majority religion here and even rebels don’t stray too far outside the box.

    There’s a TV Trope called “Crystal Dragon Jesus” about religions in Fantasy fiction. All too often they just copy the trappings of RC Christianity no matter what their pantheon. (The D&D-based Dragonlance trilogy literally had a “Platinum Dragon Jesus” in its good-God role.)

    And in “mainstream” SF Fandom and Re-Enacters I have noticed that Neopagans are heavily influenced by Christian backgrounds – their mother goddesses incorporate a lot of attributes traceable to the Virgin Mary. Even restored/reconstructed pre-Christian religions have gods that more resemble the New God than the original Old Gods. NEOpagans, not original Pagans.

  51. Jeffrey Chalmers,
    Though I did cop Hambone’s “Floating Forests” for a world writeup article for the online gamezine Freelance Traveller. (Now if I could get restarted on it…)

  52. dlc: Is there dishonesty involved with the YEC organizations regarding GW170817?

    I really don’t have an answer to this. The event brings together in a very convincing fashion many postulated effects. Neither AIG’s lightweight outline of the event and dwelling on the “gold dust” aspect of it or complete lack of coverage by the ICR have faced up to the very substantial confirmation of widespread predictions about the possibility of such events.

  53. Headless Unicorn Guy: And in “mainstream” SF Fandom and Re-Enacters I have noticed that Neopagans are heavily influenced by Christian backgrounds – their mother goddesses incorporate a lot of attributes traceable to the Virgin Mary. Even restored/reconstructed pre-Christian religions have gods that more resemble the New God than the original Old Gods. NEOpagans, not original Pagans

    And there’s arguments that Mary is attributable to earlier goddesses but where a belief comes from is not important to the conversation.

    Most critical thinking Christians that I know (and I used to be one myself) realize that they have a belief.

    They know it’s true for them and really don’t need “proof”. They are able to reconcile what the physical sciences tell us with that belief, the walking dead, talking donkeys, falling walls, immobile suns, giant nephilim and such don’t really matter to the message of redemption and forgiveness.

    My wife has stated that maybe the bible is true, maybe it isn’t but she accepts Jesus as her saviour and tries to live accordingly.

    Unfortunately for some in faith, it becomes all or nothing. It’s either 100% true or it isn’t. All questions have an answer (“in Genesis” for some) and if the answer doesn’t fit then we’ll tie ourselves into pretzels to make it fit. There’s no mystery to the universe, we just kit bash it into our worldview.

    And if there were miracles in the past, then by gum, they must happen now. God given cures for all that ails you.

    Jim Bakker will rake in money, even if he goes to court. And he’ll come back and do it again. And if it isn’t him, it’ll be someone else. Shilling prayer cloths or magic water or parts from a crashed UFO, or selling courses on remote viewing.

  54. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    Thanks for the reply. The RATE project recognizes the issue, but unfortunately they don’t provide an answer to the issue. The question is: how can radioactivity be generated on either an old earth or young earth? Why is radioactive material concentrated in the crust? Is there a plausible old earth explanation? What about in a young earth during a global flood? I think the RATE crowd does not have a plausible explanation of earth history. They favor catastrophic plate tectonics, which is physically impossible and reliant on miracles to work.

  55. Jack: talking donkeys,

    This is probably the only recorded case in the Bible where God talked out of his ass.

  56. Muff Potter: Jack: talking donkeys,

    This is probably the only recorded case in the Bible where God talked out of his ass.

    Bit of weirdness on this subject (from the guy with a longstanding weakness for talking animal characters – deal with it):

    Some years ago, I was watching a semi-tabloid show on one of the documentary channels (before they went full tabloid). And the subject was the story of Balaam ben Beor (the guy with the talking donkey).

    One of the “experts” interviewed (some kind of Rabbi, I think) said that in the original language, the donkey’s words to Balaam had a sexual overtone (his donkey was a Jenny?), and that this was deliberate. The narrator’s way of saying “You know what kind of man Balaam ben Beor is? I you wave enough money under his nose, he’ll screw his own donkey!”

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