What Happened When SBC Pastor Jared Hamilton’s 5 y.o. Son Is Molested By an Elder’s 13 y.o. Son? He Had to Leave His Job at Missouri Valley Baptist Church


Cry

“Abuse is never contained to a present moment, it lingers across a person’s lifetime and has pervasive long-term ramifications.”  ― Lorraine Nilon


I have been writing for almost 11 years (in March.) This is the first time that I have reported on a story in which an SBC church exhibitsedabusive behavior to their own pastor and his family for reporting abuse. It is indicative of the deep rooted, serious problem of sex abuse in the SBC. This is a story that needs to find it’s way into the media. Will the ERLC/SBC Executive Com. duck this one because the family actually went to law enforcement? That seems to give some of them the heebie jeebies.

Before I begin to tell this tragic tale, the Hamiltons asked me to say that there were some decent and kind people at Missouri Baptist Church who supported then through this ordeal and continue to do so.

Pastor Hamilton, the bi-vocational pastor of  SBC’s Missouri Valley Baptist Church, a member of the Missouri Baptist Convention, had to leave his job when his son was molested. Here is his story.

Warning: the testimony in this case along with statements by pastors and elders is profoundly upsetting to me and may be to readers as well. Does the SBC care? Especially when some names in this story may involve insiders.

The 5 year old son of Jared and Emily Hamilton reported his abuse to his parents.

On September 14th, 2013, Pastor Hamilton’s 5-year-old son, who we shall call Sam, told his father, that AB had taught him “that crap.” AB was, at the time, the 13-year-old son of the church’s youth minister and elder, TB JareD and Emily questioned him and their son described oral sex.

These parents did what I wish every parent of an underaged child should do. They reported this directly to law enforcement, which in this case is the country sheriff.

Unfortunately, the process between the initial report to law enforcement and the interrogation by Child Protective Services and Children’s Advocacy was lengthy because it appears that their report had been misplaced. During this time, the family experienced incredible pain as they dealt with the violation of their little boy.

The father/elder/minister said his son admitted what had happened.

They had been told by the deputy not to contact the perpetrator or his family. But as time dragged on (due to the misplaced report) the pastor became frustrated. He felt helpless and confused. Pastor Hamilton called TB to tell him what had happened with his son. TB chose to ask his son what had happened.

TB told us they asked AB if it were true and AB admitted it was and for a moment, I thought we were all on the same page.

TB demanded silence and became irate when he found out that the law enforcement as already been notified. 

A few days later, TB attempted to convince the Hamiltons that silence would be the best for all of them. When he found out the law enforcement was already informed, his response was outrage. He reportedly showed up in the Hamilton’s driveway, yelling obscenities and appearing like he wanted to have a fight. The family was so concerned that they called 911.

The Hamiltons consulted Pastor David Mason, who has been involved with the Missouri Baptist Convention, and has a reputation as being thoughtful counsel for pastors.

The Hamiltons said that Mason counseled them not to tell the church that their son was abused by AB. Instead, they should put up *invisible fences* whatever those are. Where was the wise counsel for their pain? Shortly thereafter, TB and his family left the church for Mason’s Green Valley Baptist Church. 

Ummmm-I would look elsewhere for wise counsel…

Missouri Valley Baptist Church, Halls, MO, elders decided to make their own ruling, stating that Pastor Hamilton was not allowed back in the pulpit until he begged forgiveness from the perp and the perp’s parents for his anger!!!

The elder board consisted of TB (quite convenient), John Stickley Randy Rogers and Seth Mason. Seth Mason (son of wise counsel David Mason), speaking for the elders,  said Pastor Hamilton would not be allowed back in the pulpit because:

  1. he was angry at the AB, Sam’s abuser
  2. he had to get down on his hands and knees and beg forgiveness from AB, the perp, and TB and his parents.

If this did not happen, then Pastor Hamilton would be disqualified from ministry. He was told that Seth Mason and other church members would use physical means, if necessary, to keep him out of the pulpit.

I found this deeply disturbing. I believe that the little Sam’s parents demonstrated admirable restraint in the situation. The parents were naturally upset to learn their son had been molested. Who wouldn’t be? But they were careful in their responses.

The elders read a letter to the congregation after receiving approval from TB but not from the Hamiltons because they were, get ready all TWW readers…..spreading gossip and making a mess!

At this point, it’s evident to me that elders were going to side with TB who was on their board of elders. A letter was read to the congregation and the Hamiltons were not present for this. This letter was approved by TB but not one elder asked for the Hamiltons to approve the letter nor were the Hamilton’s informed about the letter prior to the reading.

Pastor Hamilton met with the elders. I’m assuming the perp’s dad sat this one out, or did he. Here’s what he said happened.

  • Randy Rogers stated that I had been “spreading gossip” so they “had to clean up my mess”.
  • John Stickley said he deleted the letter off his computer so there would be no evidence against him.

At this point, it was patently clear that little Sam was not going to be considered the victim in this situation. The victim in the eyes of the elders appeared to be TB, the perp, and the rest of his family.

Pastor Hamilton saw the writing on the wall and resigned.

How could the elders have participated in this situation? Is it true to whoever has the power rules in the SBC? Is that power so important that a church would not come to the defense of a little child and give support and solace to him as well as his family? Did the elders reach out to the little boy? Did the offer to provide counseling to the parents? Or did none of that matter?

Sadly the church body appeared apathetic to the action of the elders. Pastor Hamilton had no option but to resign.

The first trial-AB was convicted of 1st degree molestation

This was a state prosecuted case. Since AB pled *not guilty,* little Sam had to testify. The Hamiltons were forced to watch their little boy be interrogated by the defense attorney. The defense would allege:

  • AB had no idea what sex was.
  • AB was mentally incapable of understanding anything of a sexual nature.
  • Little Sam was being abuse at home by Pastor Hamilton.
  • Little Sam was actually the perpetrator of AB!

Oddly, the parents told the Hamilton’s at one point about how intelligent their son was. Looks like the IQ went downhill around the time of this testimony.  Also, the Hamilton’ found it hard to sit still when an accusation was made that Pastor Hamilton abused Sam and that Sam was the real perp. A 5 year old child??? Horrific.

I wonder how some people sleep at night.

The Court of Appeals overturned the decision: One of the judges said this was just *fun and games.*

Dee is doing her best to maintain composure here…

The family of AB received some funds to appeal the decision in the Kansas City Court of Appeals. The Hamiltons said its was overturned based on a lack of evidence that the oral sex, as testified by little Sam, was actually sexual in nature.

Pastor Hamilton said that the following statement by on the the judges is *seared in his brain.*

One of the judges referred to my son’s abuse as “fun and games.”

He went on to say:

I lost all faith in our court system that day.

Micah Fries, pastor of Brainard Baptist Church of Chattanooga, who appears to want to become a leader in the SBC hierarchy, was asked to help the Hamiltons.”It’s all gossip.”

SBC Messengers, remember this if Fries makes a run for a position one of these days.

Fries had been a friend of the Hamiltons and and pastor to TB. Emily Hamilton reached out to him, explaining what happened and begged him to reach out to TB, asking him to do the right thing. The following are statements made to her. Remember this as an example of how Fries supported the Hamiltons: It’s all gossip…

Emily still has the emails.

  1. I have heard a little bit about what has happened between your families. The extent of my awareness has been limited to one conversation with TB. Aside from that I’ve not talked to anyone else about it because I don’t believe it would be beneficial for me to engage in any sort of gossip.
  2.  Because I know very little, and don’t want to know nor am I involved, I have intentionally chosen to not take anyone’s “side.”
  3. I am not affirming or condoning anyone’s behavior. It would be inappropriate for me to take a side.”

Here is a little lesson for Micah Fries who appears to be very concerned about reports of sexual abuse in the SBC. Sexual abuse is not *gossip.* It is a painful crime and should be discussed by pastors who actually care about abuse. In fact, most pastors with a heart would have gotten involved. It would behoove him to actually learn more than a *little” when it involves a crime. This reminds me of the really dumb excuse that Tim Challies gave for not commenting on the CJ Mahaney/SGM debacle. It was all about poor time management. He’s still hiding under his desk.

Finally, Emily Hamilton lost her job as a teacher’s aide over this. Guess who was on the board?

Emily was threatened not to discuss this situation with anyone at the private Christian™ school where she worked. Why? because it was *gossip.* Guess who attended schoo there. Yep-AB. Guess who was on the board. Yep-TB. It would result in pressure for her to leave the school.

TB and the rest of his family are still involved in ministry.

Through doing research, I’ve discovered that TB, AB etc. are still involved in a youth ministry organization in the St Joseph, Missouri which receives support from many of the SBC churches in the area.

Here is a statement on loss by Emily Hamilton:

  • We lost in court (after they won)
  • We lost In church
  • We lost our jobs
  • We lost countless friends in the church and school
  • My little boy lost his innocence

Let me add a few things:

  • They lost expected support from Micah Fries and David Mason.
  • They lost their faith in an elder system which was beholden to others..
  • They lost their reputation in front of their church due to the elders unfathomable actions.

Pastor Hamilton also lost his faith in the SBC:

  • Local SBC pastors have blocked them on social media or have chosen to ignore the story while they support the ministry of TB.
  • Most SBC pastors and churches lack wisdom and discernment in this area.

Let’s end this infuriatingly sad story with a statement by Emily

The faith I have in the King I serve to one day bring justice in all its glory on behalf of my son and every other victim…. infinite.

The rest of the story:

Sam is doing well and recently told his parents he wants to become a sex abuse attorney. I would say that he will give perps a run for their money!!!

(I plan to contact others about this story. Does anyone who is Caring Well out there want to care well in this instance?)

Addendum: Is it really just fun and games?

Teens who begin to molest at there age of 12 are particularly concerning. Here is a report from the Juvenile Justice program.

Juveniles Who Commit Sex Offenses Against Minors

The number of youth coming to the attention of police for sex offenses in­ creases sharply at age 12 and plateaus after age 14. Early adolescence is the peak age for offenses against younger children. Offenses against teenagers surge during mid to late adolescence, while offenses against victims under age 12 decline.

…Juvenile sex offenders are also much more likely than adult sex offenders to target young children as their victims. The pro­ portion of victims younger than the age of 12 is 59 percent for juvenile sex offenders, compared with 39 percent for adult sex of­fenders

,,,First, the statistics clearly highlight the fact that juveniles continue to constitute a substan­ tial proportion—more than one-third—of those who commit sexual offenses against minors.

…Thus, any effort to prevent or intervene in sexual assault and child molestation must address the risk that juvenile sex offenders pose.

…The analyses reiterate many findings from the clinical sample literature, notably, that individuals known to the victim, including family members, are those who most often commit sexual assaults; that around 90 percent of known teen offenders are male;

Juvenile Sex Offenders: When Your Teen Is the Sexual Offender

juveniles are the offenders in 23 percent of reported cases of child sexual abuse.

…As daunting as it may be, if a parent notices any troubling behaviors, or just has a gut feeling that something is off, they need to reach out for support. Not only for their own child’s sake, but to protect other children.

Parents with questions may want to consult with their pediatrician or a therapist in their community, says Nacson. “Feel out the question and say, ‘This is what I’m noticing. I can’t tell if I should be concerned or not.’ If you are mulling it over, that’s a good time to consult someone.”

,,,The best helpers for children who are acting out sexually are those who have trained specifically to work with juveniles. Not every community has a private therapist who specializes in this topic (check www.aasect.org). However, every community does have access to the expertise of social workers and therapists working for their local child protective services (CPS).

What most people don’t know is that asking for help from CPS does not always mean legal repercussions.

A final thought

It is my hope that AB’s family will seek out help. In my opinion, there is a real problem here and I hope that there are no further problems.

Also, why didn’t the vaunted SBC I(national and local)  do something?

Comments

What Happened When SBC Pastor Jared Hamilton’s 5 y.o. Son Is Molested By an Elder’s 13 y.o. Son? He Had to Leave His Job at Missouri Valley Baptist Church — 170 Comments

  1. I would be giving Oz T. or someone like him a call, sue everyone that was responsible for trying to cover it up.

    Also, what else has been covered up by this group?

  2. One ought to tremble for the SBC when one reflects that God is just, for His justice cannot sleep forever.

  3. I learned a lot about men. The system and the idiocy of abuse and SBC. NOW I understand why my perp said he was so glad to be SBC.

  4. Wow… just wow…. how can that elder board, other than TB, live with themselves?
    And why is sexual “sin” always such a taboo?

  5. Jeffrey Chalmers: And why is sexual “sin” always such a taboo?

    It really does strain credulity.

    If a church member had been caught doin’ the hanky panky with another consenting adult, he (or she) would have been tarred, feathered, and sent packing.

    And yet, when a felony (sex abuse of a minor) is committed against a little kid, they bend over backwards to cover it up by insisting that ‘they’ handle it in house.

  6. “I wonder how some people sleep at night.” Those of us without seared consciences wonder this. The Bible tells us about people like this, people who are the opposite of us. However, we’re not really taught about pure unadulterated evil in either church or school. I am less and less gobsmacked in shock when I hear these stories, but it never ceases to be gut-wrenching/heartbreaking. This is why I have lost faith in churches.

    Micah 2:1 “Woe to those who scheme iniquity, who work out evil on their beds! When morning comes, they do it, for it is in the power of their hands.

    Proverbs 4:16-17 “For they cannot sleep unless they do evil;&they are robbed of sleep unless they make someone stumble.For they eat the bread of wickedness & drink the wine of violence.”

    Psalm 36:4 “He plans wickedness upon his bed;He sets himself on a path that is not good; He does not despise evil.”

  7. Dee, thank you for all the work you do bringing these stories to light and the care you show to all the details. Just a head’s up, but under the header “The First Trial,” I think the perpetrator’s first name (instead of initials) was accidentally included in the last bullet point.

  8. Muff Potter: If a church member had been caught doin’ the hanky panky with another consenting adult, he (or she) would have been tarred, feathered, and sent packing.

    Many churches are doing a crummy job dealing with child sex abuse,
    and I’d say many of them would give the boot instantly if they found a LGB member who was having consensual sex with another LGB person (ie, like two men),
    but my experience as a Hetero Celibate is that the church stopped speaking out against (hetero) fornication years ago.

    A lot of churches today, even the conservative ones, have bought into the secular progressive mantra about “no slut shaming,”
    which is a view that made it to the progressive Christian blogs, and it finally bled into the conservative Christian sites and podcasts.

    -To the degree we’ve seen pastors in the last 15 – 20 years giving sermons, or are writing books, about how and when and why married people should be having oral sex, etc – the pulpit has become overly sexualized
    (see Mark Driscoll and every church that does a “how to spice up your married sex life” sermons every other sermon)

    Churches seldom promote or defend virginity-until- marriage / celibacy for heteros any more.

    It’s a “given” among a lot of churches now that single adults are all supposedly already having sex by the time they’re in their mid-20s.
    No attempt is made to discussion celibacy. Everyone spits on all aspects of “Purity Culture” because it’s not “sex positive” enough, yada yada.

    Churches will kick you out these days for consensual LGB adult sex but not for the hetero variety, and they will absolutely jump to your defense if you’re a child molester.

    They really want to paint the child molesters as poor lost souls who need help and prayer, but the victims are depicted as being the wrong-doers.
    Churches are totally backwards on this.

  9. When I read to the “lost” section, I teared up. These people are brood of vipers.

  10. Gossip, fun and games, authorities with conflicts of interests, heads in the sand, certain parties gliding to other spots and continuing to be paid for “ministry” (sic), attorneys abusing the system against victims, apparently keystone cops. Oh, and reportedly admitted abuse. Priorities of those involved reportedly on full display at every turn.

  11. What an utterly disgusting and heartbreaking event. What can you think about the people at this church but that they are all in it together? I mean, what else can you think? It’s one big dysfunctional family where the unspeakable happens in secret and everyone pretends things are fine.

    Why would anyone choose to remain part of such a group? I honestly don’t know why.

  12. Sister: “I wonder how some people sleep at night.” Those of us without seared consciences wonder this. The Bible tells us about people like this, people who are the opposite of us. However, we’re not really taught about pure unadulterated evil in either church or school. I am less and less gobsmacked in shock when I hear these stories, but it never ceases to be gut-wrenching/heartbreaking. This is why I have lost faith in churches.

    This is the truth. Once you’ve known a person who has no conscience, you don’t wonder anymore. They sleep fine at night. They wonder why we’d lose sleep.

  13. This is a really sad story to read. Sadly it shows what one man with power can do especially when those around him cower to him. This happens all while they claim to be Christian and a church.

    It is no wonder they try and pull the old “its gossip” card. I am sure this elder and church don’t want people to be aware of this. As we have seen with various churches lets deal with this abuse in house vs. involve law enforcement.

    What is sad is the message this elder is sending to his teenage son that molested this boy. Rather than showing his son that there will be consequences he is teaching his son his dad will cover for him. I wonder what further actions this will lead to with this son?

    As others have pointed out there will eventually be consequences for this bully elder whether it be in this life or in ultimate judgment.

  14. Muff Potter,

    I wonder if the “worse the sin” especially committed by “leadership”, the more it needs to be covered up. In my fundy past there was definitely the non-explicit doctrine that because we were active in “a truly G$d fearing, Bible believing church” and we had the “answer” we were not “as bad” as that wicked world all around us.
    Depravity such as this proves otherwise, and does not fit “the narrative”, so it must be repressed. “hanky panky” between pew peons is not as “wicked”, and done by the less pious, so does “fit the narrative” to tar and feather them..

  15. A thought that immediately occurred to me in contemplation of this story, but that was sufficiently off-topic that it seemed inappropriate to mention right away, is that:

    if this is how SBC deacon boards or elder sessions treat their pastors hired from outside the congregation (as opposed to promoted from within), one can kind of understand the page from the “calvinista” takeover playbook that calls for clearing out the old deacons/elders and replacing them with people who are more compliant with the new pastor’s wishes. And if this is the kind of treatment new pastors can expect, it may help to understand the willingness to be deceptive in the hiring process. It may not be safe to be honest with people who may turn out to be enemies. In saying this, I’m not defending these practices; just trying to understand them.

    (Way off topic, but if this is a widespread issue in SBC local congregational governance, it certainly would be an obstacle to “renewal” of the Convention from the ground up. Perhaps frank conversations of this kind were on the agenda of the GCRTF, and for obvious “political” reasons could not be safely disclosed?)

    I don’t know enough to have a sense whether this (i.e., conflict between powerful officers elected from within the congregation and pastors hired from beyond the congregation) is a widespread problem in SBC (though I have seen it in other groups). If it is, it’s very disappointing. One would like to think that the leadership of local congregations that conceive of themselves as “congregations of Christ” would not be arenas for personal power games of the kind that are characteristic of “the world”.

  16. More fuel given to leftist media……SBC needs to be “woke” to the fact of how much they feed the left when there is no oversight committee for investigation in this area. Huge clamp needed to pull that log out!

  17. Pastor Mark
    Your comment was not approved due to the political nature of the comment.I try to avoid partisan politics.I think Micah Fries should be excoriated for his lack of support to the Hamiltons. I would not recommend his church to anyone due to my concern as to how he would treat an abuse victim. Even more, I believe he uses spiritually abusive language to protect himself from having to do the right thing. He is a wuss on top of it all.

    If you would like to change your comment to be more specific, I will be happy to approve it.

  18. Herringbone,
    although I understand your anger in regards to the situation described in this post, I cannot allow comments that express specific ways in which you would like to see harm befall others. Could you please try again?

  19. We cannot explain our moderating policies because some nut jobs may try to get through while we’re sleeping. Also, there may be reasons why we allow certain things to happen. If you have a concern, please contact me behind the scenes to discuss it. One comment not approved.

  20. Daisy: A lot of churches today, even the conservative ones, have bought into the secular progressive mantra about “no slut shaming,”
    which is a view that made it to the progressive Christian blogs, and it finally bled into the conservative Christian sites and podcasts.

    I’m going to tell you why “no slut shaming” is a good thing. I was 16 years old, I thought I was pregnant and I got a pregnancy test from a “pro-life” nurse. She proceeded to tell me that I was *not* pregnant and that I was a slut for sleeping around. I’d had sex exactly once. That was in April 1977 and I will never, ever forget it. Without going into details, the guilt I felt from the lecture I got sent me in a direction for a couple of years that came very close to ruining my life and separating me from my parents.

    And I can guarantee you that the guys, any guys, they never got slut shamed either. It was only the girls who got told we were used Kleenex, plucked flowers, damaged goods, etc., etc. NOBODY NEEDS TO BE HEARING THAT.

    So yeah, very glad to see slut shaming go away. Now if churches would start treating LGBTQ people like their neighbors, instead of pariahs, yeah, life would be better.

  21. Casey: More fuel given to leftist media……SBC needs to be “woke” to the fact of how much they feed the left when there is no oversight committee for investigation in this area. Huge clamp needed to pull that log out!

    This isn’t political and I doubt the Houston Chronicle is “leftist.” The reality is that no matter how the media is portrayed, these are actions that need to be seeing the light of day. The first Spotlight article exposing how the Catholic Church in Boston dealt with sexual predator priests was on January 6, 2002. That article would be old enough to vote if it was a person, and yet we’re STILL finding out, a generation later, about abuse.

    And it’s not just Catholic abuse. The Houston Chronicle’s work on documenting convicted sex offenders in the SBC is doing what the SBC refuses to do. In fact, Robert Downen, the main reporter on this, has been moved to a religion only beat, and he’s being helped by Sarah Smith, who was hired away from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram after her series on sex abuse in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement.

    In short, don’t be thumping on the journalists, they are doing what the organizations refuse to do, hold the organizations and their sex offenders accountable.

  22. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: the journalists, they are doing what the organizations refuse to do, hold the organizations and their sex offenders accountable.

    Is there much doubt that if conscientious individuals within the religious institutions did this work on their own, brought it to the attention of their superiors, and then went public with it because the superiors refused to deal with it… is there mcuh doubt … any doubt that they would be promptly discharged from employment?

  23. Jeffrey Chalmers: I wonder if the “worse the sin” especially committed by “leadership”, the more it needs to be covered up. In my fundy past there was definitely the non-explicit doctrine that because we were active in “a truly G$d fearing, Bible believing church” and we had the “answer” we were not “as bad” as that wicked world all around us.
    Depravity such as this proves otherwise, and does not fit “the narrative”, so it must be repressed. “hanky panky” between pew peons is not as “wicked”, and done by the less pious, so does “fit the narrative” to tar and feather them..

    I think you are onto something with this statement.

    I guess you put this as a form of a church being narcicisstic. The leaders and possibly even regular members have such a high view of themselves that when they do something like this it isn’t bad had a non “Christian” group done something like this

    One similar example was as I understand Al Mohler’s response to the Penn State issue vs. C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace. Initially Mohler’s responses were quite different. Mohler eventually changed and broke ties with C.J. Mahaney but still. Different standards for yourself and for other Christian groups/leaders vs. “heathens.”

  24. I did a Google search on this church and noticed they had a Facebook page. When I clicked on the link I got a message that this content isn’t available right now

    It looks like this church is “battening down their hatches” based on this blog exposing the sin of church leaders. Hopefully this is what is going on.

    Maybe some local papers will report on this egregious action. Churches like this thrive more when actions like these aren’t publicly exposed or “told to the church” (as in church meaning all believers).

    Hopefully with exposure like this the church membership will decline and the church forced to close their doors or at least be reduced to a small number of members. If a church is even closely as toxic as reported here then I think the only option is for it to shut down. Remove the lampstand as Aspostle John wrote about in revelation.

  25. It angers me to read “gossip” is weaponized to sideline and shun people.

    “gossip” is a word that is mentioned a lot in the church I left. It goes this way…

    We are told “everybody has a whistle and can blow the whistle”. At the same time you are constantly reminded “not to gossip” and “ask yourself if this is in your hoola-hoop”.

    The whole congregation are trained to second guess themselves all the time “am I gossiping”. I call this “self-gaslighting”.

    The unspoken evil is that the power to decide what is “gossip” are in the hands of staff and leaders. The labeling of “gossiping” applies only in one direction – leaders to sheep.

    The result is nobody speaks up about any important issues. Those who do will be shun because of the mind control – “who wants to be a “gossiper”.

    It is just evil.

  26. Samuel Conner: One would like to think that the leadership of local congregations that conceive of themselves as “congregations of Christ” would not be arenas for personal power games of the kind that are characteristic of “the world”.

    Breaking News! Yesterday The Gospel Coalition posted a highly controversial article suggesting that pastors could be just like everyone else in terms of their need for the gospel:
    https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-gospel-for-pastors/
    This of course could lead to the slippery slope of suggesting that pastors might also be subject to the same ethical standards as their pew-peons. Who knew?

  27. This is such an outrageous crime on every level, absolutely inexcusable. I grieve for little Sam and for the Hamilton’s. I am angry and I pray that the comments here and the exposure of this story will give the Hamilton’s some measure of comfort that we all see that they have been treated horrifically and we are outraged on their behalf. I pray that some measure of help and justice shows up soon and that we can see changes. Absolutely inexcusable

  28. One final comment for now hopefully. 😉 Third time is a charm.

    My guess about this tyrannical elder TB is the other “golden rule” applied. The rule that he who has the gold makes the rules.

    I would be curious Dee what information you have on this elder TB. Is this elder a man with a lot of power and money such as a successful businessman? You hear many times how those who are big contributors to a church also end up being elders and can control a church.

    If this is the case maybe this exposure and the consequences of TB’s actions will cause a change in his business situation or whatever it is that allowed him to dictate the church’s response. Maybe with all this exposure God will open TB’s eyes to the errors or his way and repent but sadly that seems to rarely happen.

  29. We have a school in my area where the principal tried to “protect” a “good” teacher after a mother came to her with questions about what he was doing with her second-grade daughter at recess. Instead of going to the authorities, per state law, the principal attempted to “counsel” the teacher, telling him he had to discontinue his “sessions” with the three second-grade girls who were receiving special “academic intervention” in his classroom at lunch recess. The mother was incensed and called 911. What the teacher was doing got him a half-century jail term and the principal lost her position and academic credentialing. The girls will be in counseling for years at school district expense (the parents sued).

    Certain people can’t be “fixed”, no matter how good your intentions. The victims need to be protected, but we so often want to protect the perpetrators. They may seem like really nice people (my adulterous pastor seemed like one), but they are trapped in their own web of lies. It is not right for church boards, academic administrators, or anyone else to allow them to continue to inflict pain on their victims. As a mandated reporter, I have never enjoyed calling CPs, but children/any other kind of victim always need to come first. Someone needs to speak up for them.

  30. Sowre-sweet Dayes: It angers me to read “gossip” is weaponized to sideline and shun people.
    “gossip” is a word that is mentioned a lot in the church I left. It goes this way…
    We are told “everybody has a whistle and can blow the whistle”. At the same time you are constantly reminded “not to gossip” and “ask yourself if this is in your hoola-hoop”.

    Very good points. Were you also in a Sovereign Grace Church? You describe that scenario perfectly.

    More people need to realize or be open to how the broad definition of what “gossip” can be quite the controlling tool that abusive leaders use to control what information people become aware of. Sadly I don’t think enough people quite realize this yet and leaders are still allowed to use this definition for information control.

  31. Interesting that liberal Micah Fries is involved in this.

    We have had much dealing with this man personally and he always creeps me out on a very personal level.

    Over the years, I have heard two different families say that they would never leave their children alone with Micah Fries. Not very re-assuring, is it? And now this person wants to sweep pedophilia under the rug?

    Disgusted.

  32. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: actions that need to be seeing the light of day

    “The problem isn’t the rash of carjackings. It’s the pesky reporters who keep nosing around and asking questions.”
    –Nobody, ever

  33. Steve240,

    I second the motion to shut down the offending churches.

    An analogy is they have a Baal/Moloch worshipping problem. To enable to continue and grow in their jobs, grow their brand, continue the nepotism to employ their family, they sacrifice the victim by trying to shut them up or excommunicate them. Their just like Moloch worshippers, sacrifice the child in hopes of good crops and increased wealth.

  34. Steve240,

    And, if you want a lot of gossip among the unchurched, just refuse to notify the authorities that you may have a pedophile in your congregation.

  35. This story is incredible-in a bad sort of way. I am appalled at the conduct of these pastors and the so-called elder board. I hope that justice will be served and these people will have to answer for their neglect and spiritual abusive tactics. I also applaud the Hamiltons for speaking out and allowing Dee to post this story. This story is quite disturbing. When an employee is unjustly pressured to resign, I believe it is the Department of Labor that can be appealed to-and they do investigate. I hope young Sam is doing well and I pray that he will be a strong christian young man.

  36. Steve240,

    The Elder, not getting his son the help now, is setting him up for prison life as an adult. From similar family experience, if these kind of situations are not handled properly by and for family all members involved, it’s damaging for decades to come.

  37. Satan and the wicked want to destroy what should be a safe place of healing, the church, the body of Christ. When pastors and elders choose to cover-up and enable evil, they do the work of the Devil for him. He doesn’t need to get people not going to church or hearing the gospel. The Devil wants to keep people from trusting those called to bring the gospel and serve those suffering from injustice.

  38. If the SBC had an ounce of decency left, AB’s parents, David Mason and Micah Fries would all be excommunicated.

    I will not spread gossip, but Micah Fries is a very sketchy person at best.

    Many people are getting fed up with the SBC. See this viral article at the Gateway Pundit: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/01/pro-amnesty-southern-baptist-convention-is-in-damage-control-after-pushing-open-borders-and-ties-to-soros-exposed/ I know three families who just vowed never to give another dime to an SBC church.

  39. Sister: “I wonder how some people sleep at night.”

    Very Well and Very Serene.
    When You Can Do No Wrong…

  40. Brian: The Elder, not getting his son the help now, is setting him up for prison life as an adult.

    Or a distinguished and godly career as an Elder or Pastor.
    (Maybe inheriting Daddy’s Eldership as the REAL Power Behind the Pulpit.)

  41. Isn’t this a test case for SBÇ’s child molestation prevention procedures and it’s ERLC? Or, did this happen before before the procedures were created and implemented?

  42. Sharon:
    Interesting that liberal Micah Fries is involved in this.

    Over the years, I have heard two different families say that they would never leave their children alone with Micah Fries. Not very re-assuring, is it? And now this person wants to sweep pedophilia under the rug?

    Gross

  43. Trevor,

    Two things regarding the article:

    1. They list James Merit as a member of the SBC. I thought he was Churches of Christ?

    2. They quoted Snopes, who in the last couple of years has a lesser record than in years past.

  44. The whole congregation are trained to second guess themselves all the time “am I gossiping”. I call this “self-gaslighting”.

    The unspoken evil is that the power to decide what is “gossip” are in the hands of staff and leaders. The labeling of “gossiping” applies only in one direction – leaders to sheep.

    This is a perfect analogy of what happens in the church.

    I’m speechless over this article and the treatment that the Hamilton family has had to endure.

  45. Trevor:

    I will not spread gossip, but Micah Fries is a very sketchy person at best.

    Many people are getting fed up with the SBC.See this viral article at the Gateway Pundit: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/01/pro-amnesty-southern-baptist-convention-is-in-damage-control-after-pushing-open-borders-and-ties-to-soros-exposed/I know three families who just vowed never to give another dime to an SBC church.

    This article is spot on. My family is still praying about it but I think we’re going to leave our SBC church and try to find an independent Baptist church.

    Why is Micah Fries not in jail? Why is David Mason still preaching?

  46. Ken F (aka Tweed): This of course could lead to the slippery slope of suggesting that pastors might also be subject to the same ethical standards as their pew-peons. Who knew?

    The law is not for Princes.
    It is for the common people.

  47. Sowre-sweet Dayes: We are told “everybody has a whistle and can blow the whistle”. At the same time you are constantly reminded “not to gossip” and “ask yourself if this is in your hoola-hoop”.

    The whole congregation are trained to second guess themselves all the time “am I gossiping”. I call this “self-gaslighting”.

    The unspoken evil is that the power to decide what is “gossip” are in the hands of staff and leaders. The labeling of “gossiping” applies only in one direction – leaders to sheep.

    After an elder acted like a bully and then lied to my husband and myself, I took the time to actually look up the word “gossip.” It was eye-opening: “idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal or private affairs of others” according to dictionary.com

    So… NOT “anything remotely negative (true or not) about another person.” NOT “something less-than-positive (true or not) about a leader acting in the course of their official duties.”

    In other words… A truthful, first-hand account of someone acting in a leadership capacity or committing a crime IS NOT GOSSIP. Whether the account is “nice” or not is irrelevant.

    Learning that was quite liberating.

  48. Brian: 1. They list James Merit as a member of the SBC. I thought he was Churches of Christ?

    James Merritt is Southern Baptist. He was President of the SBC for a term. I used to attend that church. But I didn’t see a reference to him in that article. He stays well out of politics, as far as I could tell. One reason I attended his church was because I was so tired of hearing about politics in church (of either side), particularly from people that had no interest in helping anyone outside of their families.

  49. “Fries had been a friend of the Hamiltons and and pastor to TB.” (Dee)

    I may have missed it somewhere in the article or comment thread, but Micah Fries was a former Senior Pastor at Missouri Valley Baptist Church. He has missed a perfect opportunity to demonstrate “Caring Well” at his old pastorate.

    https://micahfries.com/bio

  50. ishy: James Merritt is Southern Baptist. He was President of the SBC for a term.

    His son, Jonathan Merritt, has been a controversial figure as a religion and culture writer.

  51. Headless Unicorn Guy: Eldership as the REAL Power Behind the Pulpit

    Deacons/elders at rural SBC churches, such as Missouri Valley Baptist Church, rule the roost. Pastors have to walk the line or they are shown the door. There is little room for Jesus in such places since the deacon/elder board has ultimate authority. In most cases, they are chosen as church leaders because they are popular in the church/community, prominent businessmen, or wealthy … few of them are spiritual men. God help a young pastor who finds himself in ‘their’ pulpit; they own him. Yep, there was a lot wrong with SBC life before the New Calvinists came along.

  52. Max: Deacons/elders at rural SBC churches, such as Missouri Valley Baptist Church, rule the roost. Pastors have to walk the line or they are shown the door. There is little room for Jesus in such places since the deacon/elder board has ultimate authority. In most cases, they are chosen as church leaders because they are popular in the church/community, prominent businessmen, or wealthy … few of them are spiritual men.

    Thus you are indicating that TB is in all likelihood and elder with the characteristics I described above? TB is probably a prominent businessman or wealthy that TB used to control this situation and try and protect his son for the consequences of his son’s actions.

  53. Daisy: Churches will kick you out these days for consensual LGB adult sex but not for the hetero variety

    I’ve been married a long time, but when we were engaged, nobody at church asked us if we were intimate. A lot of churches welcome unmarried couples, in hopes of encouraging them to marry (assuming they are well suited). This seems to coax people toward repentance, just not the dramatic kind.

    I also think there’s a pretty big gap between celibacy and fornication. Most people are not wild-n-crazy.

  54. Steve240,

    SBC pastors usually stay at a church for 3-5 years, before they move along or are moved along by the real leaders of the church, the deacon/elder board. Many SBC churches are known as “preacher-eater” churches. Some of the meanest folks on the planet are unspiritual men who serve as SBC deacons/elders.

  55. Friend,

    You forgot the 20 somethings who attended Sunday School as a child and/or teenager and were given basketballs instead of Bibles. I was listening to a Christian Bible Q&A program last week. A kid in his 20’s called in, claimed to be a Christian, said he was sexually active since 17, met a Christian girl he was serious about, wanted to know how to get back into God’s good graces. Unless the kid was acting, he was surprised when he had grace explained to him. He was told if he was having sexual relations with anyone to stop, he wasn’t getting the definition grace entirely. I know it’s been brought up on this blog before, but to actually here it was oxygen stealing.

  56. Brian: He was told if he was having sexual relations with anyone to stop, he wasn’t getting the definition grace entirely.

    That’s so thought provoking. In an earlier era, the couple might have been forced to marry. Not knowing these two folks at all, I guess I would lean toward gently encouraging marriage.

    Long ago I knew several different young adults who had a conversion experience and abruptly gave up having sex with a long-standing boyfriend or girlfriend. Those boyfriends and girlfriends felt completely discarded and rejected, instead of loved and brought into the fold.

    The fond old phrase “make an honest woman of her” (never meant in a mean way when I heard it) comes to mind.

  57. Friend,

    Times have changed. My own daughter and granddaughter lived with their now spouses for several years before they married. These young adults were raised in the church and my went to Christian school. She now has3 children and a strong marriage. My granddaughter has no children but has a strong marriage. I think her fundy parents turned her off on having kids. To them, living with their future spouses was no big deal. I did ask my daughter if her youth pastor knew she was living with her fiancé. She steeply replied “No”. All is well that ends well I think.

  58. Leslie: I did ask my daughter if her youth pastor knew she was living with her fiancé. She steeply replied “No”.

    Doesn’t work when the addresses in the church directory are, ah, remarkably similar. 😉

  59. This happened to me, too. My son was molested by a 12 year old boy and when I reported to the police and the pastor, the pastor told me, “what do you want me to do about it?’ and got angry when I said I wanted him to have the family of the abusive boy to leave the church.

    It was a heart-wrenching experience and it left me disgusted with that pastor… and the church as a whole. I take great comfort knowing that God will avenge this wrong, one day. I just had to lay it all at the foot of the cross because it became too heavy to carry.

  60. Max: Deacons/elders at rural SBC churches, such as Missouri Valley Baptist Church, rule the roost.Pastors have to walk the line or they are shown the door.There is little room for Jesus in such places since the deacon/elder board has ultimate authority.In most cases, they are chosen as church leaders because they are popular in the church/community, prominent businessmen, or wealthy … few of them are spiritual men.God help a young pastor who finds himself in ‘their’ pulpit; they own him.Yep, there was a lot wrong with SBC life before the New Calvinists came along.

    I have seen certain men actually campaign for a deacon position. I’m sure those men were convinced that no one could see through them.

  61. “But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.” – Eph. 5:3

  62. I’ve been reading this blog for a while now but have not commented till now. I must confess to being a little perplexed. Are some of you folks stating that sex w/o marriage is ok? If you are a Christian, could you tell me how you reconcile that with the New Testament? Not trying to start something here, just truly asking.

  63. Friend,

    Because examples like this and those identifying as Christians living together before marriage it portrays Christianity the same as the rest of the world. And it gives an edge to the John Mac Arthur and his colleagues.

  64. “As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.” 1 Thes. 4:1

  65. pam: Are some of you folks stating that sex w/o marriage is ok? If you are a Christian, could you tell me how you reconcile that with the New Testament?

    I have been here lurking and sometimes commenting for years. I think the answer to your question is that some of those here do not claim to be Christians. Others come from a liberal background. Dee is certainly conservative but you can see plainly for yourself what she does tolerate without answering in the comment section and what she does not. This causes some critics to think that Dee is liberal and has thrown away the Bible. That is an exaggeration I think but each blogger is different in these regards.

    I have had friends who have championed the “try before you buy” attitude to the holy marriage vows. The scriptures are not on their side. In fact, what the scriptures say about that view is quite frightening towards those who promote that lifestyle…

  66. pam: Are some of you folks stating that sex w/o marriage is ok? If you are a Christian, could you tell me how you reconcile that with the New Testament?

    I am a conservative Christian. Most people are aware of that but still come here to see what I write about. My particular focus is on abuse in the evangelical church. That topic attracts many people who’ve gotten burned in the church as well as those who appreciate the level of discussion here. (and sometimes they don’t!)

    This is not simply a discussion board for Christians who adhere to certain fundamental beliefs like I do. The Nicene Creed spells to my beliefs nicely. In other words, this is not a church which demands one follow the Bible in order to be a member.

    I like to reach out to all and find places of intersection. Abuse is one of those topics. So, anyone is welcome here so long as they are semi thoughtful. About a month ago, I was watching the news and was dismayed at the painful discourse on ALL sides. I turned to my husband and said that I plan to take my message about the lifelong effects of abuse to anyone who will listen to me. That means the far left, nonChristians, IFB, Hasidic Jews. secular humanists, etc. It is one topic that we all can agree upon.

    In the meantime, take a look at my E Church which I started for folks who, due to abuse, will never step foot in a church. I post every week and have Wade Burleson’s sermons as well as a few others from time to time.

    I am so grateful for those who. do not believe as do but are still willing to dialog about these issues.

  67. Eric Bonetti’s mom just passed away, he is the man who was deeply hurt in an Episcopal church. Please keep him in your prayers.

  68. Julie:
    This happened to me, too.My son was molested by a 12 year old boy and when I reported to the police and the pastor, the pastor told me, “what do you want me to do about it?’ and got angry when I said I wanted him to have the family of the abusive boy to leave the church.

    It was a heart-wrenching experience and it left me disgusted with that pastor… and the church as a whole.I take great comfort knowing that God will avenge this wrong, one day.I just had to lay it all at the foot of the cross because it became too heavy to carry.

    Julie, I’m sorry you have had the same experience. I know your pain well. It is life altering and deserves justice. I rely completely on The Lord for His justice to come for mine son and yours. May God bless you and your family.

  69. Sister,

    “The Bible tells us… I am less and less gobsmacked in shock when I hear these stories, but it never ceases to be gut-wrenching/heartbreaking. This is why I have lost faith in churches.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    what concerns me is

    (1) the dire campaign for “We believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God”

    (2) the holy bible is kind of like silly putty

    (or treated as some kind of superpower that transforms into useful shapes and objects)

    i’m suddenly remembering Saturday morning cartoons when Hanna-Barbera’s “The Super Friends” (pre Justice League) went downhill with The Wonder Twins, Zan and Jayna…

    “Wonder twin powers, ACTIVATE!”, then they’d touch fists and declare how they wanted to transmogrify to solve whatever problem they faced. (even at 7-years old i rolled my eyes)

    well, i mean really — “Wonder twin powers, ACTIVATE! Shape of…. an ice unicycle!”

    i roll my eyes now.

    evangelical leaders: “Biblical Powers, ACTIVATE! Shape of…. let’s-make-talking-about-a-5-year-old-being-molested-by-someone-associated-with-a-christian-leader-gossip-and-act-like-it’s-the-unpardonable-sin.”

    seems to me christian leaders form the bible into whatever shape protects the power and revenue of their careers.

    i have NEVER observed otherwise.

  70. SiteSeer,

    “…where the unspeakable happens in secret and everyone pretends things are fine.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    “faith!” “faith in action”

    i feel sick.

  71. Brian,

    An awful lot of folks have not heard of John MacArthur and don’t consider his advantages when making their plans.

    I grew up with anti gambling anti alcohol temperance activists. The church used to celebrate temperance and excoriate gambling. I remain a teetotaler, and I don’t go to casinos. I feel like a better Christian for abstaining, but I have come to see this as a personal path. I’m at peace with this.

  72. Brian: He was told if he was having sexual relations with anyone to stop, he wasn’t getting the definition grace entirely. I know it’s been brought up on this blog before, but to actually here it was oxygen stealing.

    *tartly* Why is it that sexual sins are the ones people harp on? Seriously, some people are obsessed with sexual sins, and in their pursuit of outing the sinners, they will do all sorts of things to out them. And what’s happening is that young people (and some older people like me) are just tired of it. You all have liars, cheats and thieves in your congregations, people who steal money from their mothers and who commit all sorts of crimes, but be an unmarried couple or someone who had sex outside of marriage, or GOD FORBID, an LGBTQIA person, and you’re a pariah.

    People are voting with their feet. If you’re going to call out sin, make sure you call out all sins. And then remember that you’re just as much a sinner as that legally married lesbian couple you told last week that they’re going to hell. *scowl* Tired of consensual sex being the uber sin when things like child sexual abuse get a pass or are covered up.

  73. SiteSeer,

    “Once you’ve known a person who has no conscience…”
    +++++++++++

    goodness…. that pretty much sums up my years in evangeliworld. tamping down one’s conscience, sometimes to the point of silencing it completely and calling it faith.

    if you can have faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (who are all completely invisible & silent, barring strange and unusual events, and most of the time un-sensory),

    …it’s really just a hop, skip, &-a-jump to having faith in things that abrade one’s conscience.

    you know, “that’s just your feelings talking”– that voice. And as we’ve all heard, “faith is not a feeling”.

    and you get to be a faith superstar when you can reach the point that you silence your conscience altogether.

    yes, a totally dysfunctional family.

    a religion that takes perfectly decent and honorable human beings and grooms them to resemble Antisocial Personality Disorder, where the end goal of faith is sociopathy.

  74. “I am not affirming or condoning anyone’s behavior. It would be inappropriate for me to take a side”–Micah Fries
    +++++++++++

    “…I feel my role in the band is to be somewhere in the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water.”–Derek Smalls, Spinal Tap

    yes, of course, Micah. ‘inappropriate’. in other words, to hefty a mental task, or too risky for your career in the SBC. both is also plausible.

  75. Jerome: Micah Fries: “By Whose Authority” by Mark Dever is a dynamite book … Micah Fries: “I am a huge fan of 9Marks”

    Fries is typical of the up-and-comer young Calvinists in SBC. They patronize Mohler, Devers, etc. ad nauseam. I remember an interview Al Mohler had with a young Greg Gilbert to promote Gilbert’s book “What Is The Gospel?” His response to one of Mohler’s questions: “Ohhh Dr. Mohler, what a sweet question.” Sickening, but it worked for him … he is now Mohler’s pastor in Louisville!

  76. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I have seen certain men actually campaign for a deacon position.

    Which, of course, is not Biblical at all … but you seldom hear of a rural church deacon who is Biblically literate. Deacon positions in such places are seats of power, not seats of service.

  77. Max: Fries is typical of the up-and-comer young Calvinists in SBC. They patronize Mohler, Devers, etc. ad nauseam.

    Brown-nosing until the time is right for the Backstab?

  78. Muff Potter: The law is not for Princes.

    It is for the common people.

    Just ask Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Commodus, Eleglabius…
    Baba Saddam and his sons…

  79. ewelk66: The unspoken evil is that the power to decide what is “gossip” are in the hands of staff and leaders

    Just like “Hooliganism” in the Russian Penal Code.
    I heard it read on-the-air once during the Sochi Olympics Debacle. The statute is so broadly written that it can mean anything those in power in Russia (and their Enforcers) say it means.

    “There are those who say what we do is illegal. Before that can happen, make sure WE are the ones who define what is legal and what is not.” — L Ron Hubbard

  80. ewelk66: The whole congregation are trained to second guess themselves all the time “am I gossiping”. I call this “self-gaslighting”.

    It’s how you create Totally Domesticated Humans to fill the pews, Praise Pastor, and TITHE.

  81. elastigirl: “I am not affirming or condoning anyone’s behavior. It would be inappropriate for me to take a side”–Micah Fries

    Nathan was on God’s side when he pointed a finger in David’s face and shouted “YOU are the man!” It was the appropriate thing for a prophet to do. Pastors who don’t take God’s side when a little one is abused are acting inappropriately; silence is not appropriate for a man of God in such situations.

  82. Today the Pedo Priest scandal hit my (RCC) parish.
    Hard.

    The Diocesan Director of Clergy Formation came to announce at all Masses that our pastor had been removed from his position and “put on administrative leave” regarding “accusations of multiple sexual acts with minors over the past 25 years”. He will remain in this limbo “until the matter is resolved”. All laity who might know more about this were advised to contact the police, NOT the Diocese.

    That’s how False Romish Popery(TM) handles it nowadays.
    How about God’s Special Pets in the SBC, IFB, and Megas?

  83. elastigirl: a religion that takes perfectly decent and honorable human beings and grooms them to resemble Antisocial Personality Disorder, where the end goal of faith is sociopathy.

    One of the aspects of the New Calvinist movement that makes no sense to me is the plethora of inane articles they publish that have no value. For example, TGC published this one today:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-faqs-what-christians-should-know-about-the-wuhan-coronavirus/.
    I am not sure if their followers put up with this because they have been groomed to think they are stupid, or because they were stupid to begin with. In any case, that culture appears to have a group of upper crust who feel the need to tell everyone else what to do or think for just about everything. If articles like this are really needed, then Christians must be the most clueless people on the planet. Is there a connection between this and all the abuse? Are articles like this part of the grooming process to get people to believe lame excuses for abuse? Is it a way to dull people’s discernment?

  84. Mr. Jesperson,

    Mr. Jesperson,

    I wish church leaders actually believed this and acted on it.

    I find as much, if not more, care and love towards others as prescribed by Jesus among non church goers as among church goers. Sad.

    I am a former 35 year church goer Christian.

  85. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I just read the article… I find it interesting that they seem to be “restating CDC ” type of info, including how these viruses evolve…… but, it is my understanding that New Calvinista do not endorse “evolution”???

  86. Ken F (aka Tweed): New Calvinist movement … that culture appears to have a group of upper crust who feel the need to tell everyone else what to do or think for just about everything

    The young reformers wouldn’t know what to do if they didn’t have a daily tweet-dose of Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Dever Drivel, etc. The blind leading the blind.

  87. Ken F (aka Tweed): If articles like this are really needed, then Christians must be the most clueless people on the planet. Is there a connection between this and all the abuse? Are articles like this part of the grooming process to get people to believe lame excuses for abuse? Is it a way to dull people’s discernment?

    I recently had a conversation with an older believer friend who gets most of her news from evangelical cable television, and the degree of (what I take to be) misinformation was stunning. It might be that items like this have a useful purpose in terms of pulling against sensationalistic fear-mongering from other “christian” news sources.

  88. Jeffrey Chalmers: I find it interesting that they seem to be “restating CDC ” type of info,

    The headline is false adverising. It sounds like he is going to explain aspects of it from a uniquely Christian perspective, but he only lists things anyine can and should know. Even his bottom line is not uniquely Christian. What next? What Christians should know about washing their hands after using the toilet? Do Christians really struggle with not knowing these things?

  89. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    “I find it interesting that they seem to be “restating CDC ” type of info, including how these viruses evolve…… but, it is my understanding that New Calvinista do not endorse “evolution”???”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    might be similar to a conversation i had with someone, that went along the lines of,

    (context: bears)

    someone: i think bears are related to dogs. see, they kind of have similar faces.

    me: yes, i think i heard that, too. interesting. so, somewhere in the evolution of things-

    someone: evolution…. well, no, because it was God who created everything. don’t tell me you’ve gone down that slippery slope…

    me: (well, at least i’m not standing stock still in a puddle of cognitive dissonance and oblivious to it)

  90. Samuel Conner: It might be that items like this have a useful purpose in terms of pulling against sensationalistic fear-mongering from other “christian” news sources.

    There is that too. But so much of what they write about falls under thr category of “uncanny grasp of the obvious.” It is either a plot to convince Christians that they are unable to think for themselves, or they are so lost in their own bubble that they cannot imagine people being able to function normally. Maybe it is part of a plan to convince Christians that non-believers are so completely out of touch with reality that it makes no sense to rely on non-believers for anything, including how to handle abuse. Hence, no calling the police when needed.

  91. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Ken, I have seen what you are talking about…… As I keep saying here on TWW, I came out of a GARBC 7&8th grade, and High School, were I was taught that our specific flavor of Christianity had “all of the answers”, and the secular humanist world should always be “suspect”….. Once I had been in the “secular humanist world” for a number of years, I realized how much I was taught was just plain wrong…. and some of what the fundies taught me, especially on how to treat others that disagree is not at all consistent with how Christ taught Christians to be.. While I could go on and on, many reading TWW know what I talking about. The fundamentalist, and many evangelicals do live in a “bubble”…… the real irony is that learning/experiencing the secular humanist world did not “destroy my faith” like they said it would…. on the contrary, I see clear distinctions now….. BUT, since I do not believe the plethora of specific doctrine that fundamentalist believe, I am “lost” to them!

  92. Sowre-sweet Dayes,

    The broad and non specific use of the “gossip” label to silence people is scary. I didn’t speak up about my husband’s abuse for years, because I had been taught it was wrong to gossip, and any remotely negative word about my husband to anyone outside the marriage was gossip. I should only speak kindly and positively about him to others, and if I had a problem I should speak to him and him alone about it, in an appropriate and gentle, feminine way, of course.

  93. Liz,

    I’m so sorry you endured that. It seems that you found your voice and are no longer in that situation. I wish you the best.

  94. Ken F (aka Tweed): One of the aspects of the New Calvinist movement that makes no sense to me is the plethora of inane articles they publish that have no value.

    I am betting many of their posts are more for $$ reasons than information, though they do teach their followers to never read outside their sphere, so that is part of it. On that article in particular, Carter is using trending keywords to attract clicks and visitors. They have a store, a donation button, and each author sells their books in their bio under each article. Cha-ching!

  95. Liz,

    And get backhanded again, as you’re imploring to be treated like a human being. I grew up with that-my mom trying to talk to my dad about his temper, and then grabbing a towel for the split lip. I’m so sorry, and I hope that you are in a better situation now.

  96. ishy: Cha-ching!

    So the bottom line is the bottom line. One of the earliest Christian writings is the Didache. It warns against freeloaders “trafficking in Christ.” Looks like some things never change.

  97. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    HUG-I’m so sorry for what happened in your church this morning. My church actually called a meeting a few years ago to announce that one of our elders had been involved in a number of years of adulterous relationships, and he would be stepping down and immediately going into counseling. I was amazed that the church was that honest about it (the meeting was open to anyone who wanted to attend, and we were told that it had to do with a leadership issue). Most churches aren’t that transparent. However,the transparency doesn’t help with the shock that someone you thought you knew well, and found helpful in certain situations, turns out to be a person you will never trust again.

  98. dee: Eric Bonetti’s mom just passed away, he is the man who was deeply hurt in an Episcopal church. Please keep him in your prayers.

    Prayers ascending for Eric, his mother, and all who loved her.

  99. dee,

    Dee, I appreciate the open environment on TWW. I’m quite a conservative Christian, but always willing to dialog because I enjoy understanding different points of view. However, I am always thankful that the main conversation goes back to a focus on victims, their abusers, and how to prevent abuse in the church. Since I work with children in both church and a secular school. I think it’s important to understand that abuse can happen anywhere, with the people you suspect the least often involved. Both my church and school have recently upgraded their training and guidelines for staff/student (children) interactions. Yes, it’s not as “free” as it used to be, but it is much safer for both parties, and if you want to serve, you need to abide by the rules.

  100. In other recent threads there has been reference to “Post Traumatic Church Disorder.” I googled it just now to see if it a real thing and I found this site:
    https://churchleaders.com/smallgroups/small-group-articles/177067-post-traumatic-church-disorder-12-symptoms-and-5-treatments.html
    It basically shames people who have been hurt by church. The author has an Mdiv from SBTS. What a shock (not). But there are lots of great comments on that post.

  101. Ken F (aka Tweed): One of the earliest Christian writings is the Didache. It warns against freeloaders “trafficking in Christ.” Looks like some things never change.

    It’s definitely bad in Evangelical Land. My atheist brother told me about visiting a church for the first time as an adult with some family, and they tried to sell him the video of the service as soon as they came out the doors afterward. He wasn’t exactly impressed. He was less impressed with the people lined up to buy the stupid DVD.

    Though, I will shout out to some Southern Baptists. We mentioned James Merritt earlier. At his church, he gave away a lot of his books. And I think while I attended there, I acquired at least 10 new books just from volunteering or going to events. One time, I was walking past the bookstore and he said, “You need a book? Here, take it” and tried to hand it to me. I passed, because someone else had already given me one, but I have to say, that impressed me about his church.

    Also, after attending a public university where several of my professors made you buy their brand new books and gave you class points on it (I don’t see how that was legal or school-approved, but everybody seemed to know about it), several of my professors at SEBTS gave their books to students each semester. I had a missions professor at LU who did the same thing, but he made us all promise to send him our books after they were published. I never did send him my spy novel, but oh well…

  102. ishy: they tried to sell him the video of the service as soon as they came out the doors

    Sometimes I feel like a visitor from an ancient civilization. After service today, we joined a line to greet the two clergy folks and the seminarian. That was all.

  103. Max: The young reformers wouldn’t know what to do if they didn’t have a daily tweet-dose of Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Dever Drivel, etc.

    Not “tweet-dose”, Max.
    The word is “Their FIX”.
    Just like heroin, Oxycontin, crack, meth, killer app, or Mad Dog 20/20.

  104. Ken F (aka Tweed): So the bottom line is the bottom line. One of the earliest Christian writings is the Didache. It warns against freeloaders “trafficking in Christ.” Looks like some things never change.

    As I understand it, a full THIRD of the Didache is “How to spot a con man”.

  105. Ken F (aka Tweed): It basically shames people who have been hurt by church. The author has an Mdiv from SBTS.

    Yep, Mr. Reed comes across as a young reformer who doesn’t give a whoop about all the good church folks that the New Calvinist movement have traumatized. Instead of grieving over the great wrong the new reformers have brought to the American church, he makes light of it. These young “pastors” just don’t get it.

    He writes “Satan would love nothing more than to keep you from church by convincing you church is worth keeping from.” It probably doesn’t cross his mind that the Holy Spirit (not Satan) is speaking to believers to come out of these places which are not churches of the Living God at all.

  106. dee

    Dee & Mr. Jesperson, Thanks so much for your responses. Just a bit of naivete on my part. I agree with you Dee regarding keeping the focus on abuse in the church and opening the comment section to any with a take on articles posted. I was on the cradle roll and grew up in the SBC but am now looking for a small group setting (could be non-denominational). Not sure how to go about finding one. Might anyone have any ideas?

  107. elastigirl: someone: evolution…

    “Equivocation. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In logic, equivocation (‘calling two different things by the same name’) is an informal fallacy resulting from the use of a particular word/expression in multiple senses throughout an argument leading to a false conclusion.”

    Few people realize that are three different types and with that three different definitions for the term: Evolution.

    Evolution = Variation in Species (Microevolution is certainly real)

    Evolution = Macroevolution (There is a great deal of faith involved how things like the first eye came into being or hearing, or radar. On the big scale there are not even well defined scientific theories on how this happened. The logical holes are big enough there to drive a Mac truck though. This is not actually a truly “scientific” theory. It is a faith in the gods of Chance and Infinity.)

    Evolution = Abiogenesis: (no complete working theory and mathematically impossible.)

    So typical word usage is certainly a fallacy of equivocation. Just because the first is true does not automatically mean that the other two usages are true…

    MOD: Your comments against evolution really distorts the science involved. This (evolution and distortions) has been discussed at length here in the past. Please don’t try and derail this conversation into a debate on evolution. No matter how much you want to make a point this is not the post where such a point belongs. GBTC

  108. pam,

    I should have given more clarity to the issue of sex before marriage. When our two youngest kids were little we were involved in a super legalistic fundamentalist church that also had a school which all of our kids attended. The hypocrisy of that organization was overwhelming to us and our kids. We left when they were 13 and 15. The straw that broke the camels back so to speak was that the school principal had an affair with one of the teachers and a few months later commuted suicide. My daughter was ten and best friends with the principals daughter.with all the terrible things have happened to us in various churches, it does not surprise me that young people think that living together is no big deal. I was not happy with it, but understood . With all the horrible things happening in our churches this seems very minor. I guess this is what is called leveling.

  109. Friend,

    It’s not dead or alien totally yet. My former IFB church was still doing the meet and greet line with the pastor as you exited the sanctuary, in 2016.

  110. ishy,

    I’m cynical enough now to believe that pastors giving away their books or those of their dude-bros is just a way to boost the sales numbers. And all those books that are given away at SBC conferences and T4G aren’t just due to the generous nature of publishers. Somebody is buying them. It’s a big numbers machine. In my local area, a former pro athlete has hit it big in the Christian world. Every newcomer to his large non-denom church gets a copy of his latest book. When he’s written a new one, he will actually sell and sign them in the lobby after church. Everyone is so very excited to get a signed copy that they go crazy buying for themselves and friends.

  111. It’s interesting how often the subject of “gossip” comes up in terms of heavily controlling churches like this. It is the attempt to control the spread of information and keep people in the dark. When a group is focused on preventing all gossip, you should ask what information they are trying to keep unknown.

    If you define gossip as inventing malicious lies about people, we would all agree that is an evil. But researchers tell us that the sharing of information about what other people are doing and saying – something often defined as ‘gossip’ in churches – is a normal, healthy, and important part of any social network.

    For example, here is a quote from Historian Yuval Noah Harari, a professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem:

    “Rumour-mongers are the original fourth estate, journalists who inform society about and thus protect it from cheats and freeloaders.”

    A previous study from the University of California also found that gossiping can have positive outcomes such as helping society police bad behaviour and lower stress.

    Researchers found that volunteers’ heart rates increased when they witnessed someone behaving badly, but this increase was tempered when they were able to pass on the information to alert others.

    So strong is the urge to warn others about unsavoury characters that participants in the UC Berkeley study sacrificed money to send a “gossip note” to warn those who were about to play against cheaters.

    The University of Michigan also found that for women, gossiping boosts levels of progesterone, a hormone shown to reduces levels of anxiety and stress.

    I’ve read a couple accounts of pastors who were able to seduce most of the women in their congregations because every woman thought she was the only one, due to the fact that each of them was convinced it would be ‘wrong’ to share the information of what had happened to her with anyone else. In the same way, it allows all sorts of bad behavior to remain thriving under the surface, because when people start sharing pieces of information with each other, all sorts of dots get connected and a complete picture materializes.

    Author Kate Murphy wrote,

    Researchers at Stanford University and the University of California–Berkeley found that subjects, when given the opportunity, readily gossiped about others who were untrustworthy in a financial game, which in turn led the cheaters to play nice to get back into everyone’s good graces. The conclusion was that organisations that allow their members to gossip will be more cooperative and deter selfishness better than those that don’t.

    I’ve been to a lot of churches in my life where gossip was considered anathema. The interesting thing I observed is, it never stopped the malicious kind of back-stabbing gossip; it only stopped the well-meaning people from the normal sharing of information.

  112. Leslie: With all the horrible things happening in our churches this seems very minor. I guess this is what is called leveling.

    Or maybe it’s just getting some perspective.

  113. Ken F (aka Tweed): One of the aspects of the New Calvinist movement that makes no sense to me is the plethora of inane articles they publish that have no value. For example, TGC published this one today:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-faqs-what-christians-should-know-about-the-wuhan-coronavirus/.
    I am not sure if their followers put up with this because they have been groomed to think they are stupid, or because they were stupid to begin with. In any case, that culture appears to have a group of upper crust who feel the need to tell everyone else what to do or think for just about everything. If articles like this are really needed, then Christians must be the most clueless people on the planet. Is there a connection between this and all the abuse? Are articles like this part of the grooming process to get people to believe lame excuses for abuse? Is it a way to dull people’s discernment?

    A lot of Christians have developed a sort of paranoia that everyone is out to deceive them except for approved “Christian” spokespersons. I noticed this starting around the time Focus on the Family started promoting Christian experts on this, that, and the other thing. The idea seemed to take hold that there was a “Christian” counterpart to every kind of trained expert. I think the New Calvinists just sort of stepped into that role and expanded it.

    I have friends who, if you share any piece of information or news, the first thing they want to know is whether it’s from a “Christian” source. They won’t even read the news!

  114. Headless Unicorn Guy: The Diocesan Director of Clergy Formation came to announce at all Masses that our pastor had been removed from his position and “put on administrative leave” regarding “accusations of multiple sexual acts with minors over the past 25 years”. He will remain in this limbo “until the matter is resolved”. All laity who might know more about this were advised to contact the police, NOT the Diocese.

    I’m sorry to hear this. It seems that the way they handled it was really exemplary, though. This is what one would always hope for. They wouldn’t have come to this place if the secular news media hadn’t forced them, though. Now the evangelical church needs to face the truth and make the changes, too.

  115. Trevor: Many people are getting fed up with the SBC. See this viral article at the Gateway Pundit: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/01/pro-amnesty-southern-baptist-convention-is-in-damage-control-after-pushing-open-borders-and-ties-to-soros-exposed/ I know three families who just vowed never to give another dime to an SBC church.

    Good grief. That publication is not going to be winning any Pulitzer prizes…

    There seems to be a huge confusion among Christians these days as to what is spiritual and what is political. Jesus refused to become embroiled in political arguments. He refused to be sidetracked. We’d do well to follow his example.

  116. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Ah, HUG I’m so sorry to hear that – did you know it was coming? Are you okay?

    The orphanage attached to the Convent School my Mum went to was also affected by sexual abuse, & one of the Priests my Gran worked for for a very long time turned out to be an abuser. Sometimes it feels like there isn’t a Catholic Church or institution in the world not caught up in this horror, even given the problems affecting all denominations.

  117. Leah Jacobs: I’m cynical enough now to believe that pastors giving away their books or those of their dude-bros is just a way to boost the sales numbers.

    I think some do, but I never got the impression of that there. They had a bookstore, but it was mostly Bibles. Very little of the TGC-style “sell my buddies books and they’ll sell mine” mentality. The bookstore was almost never mentioned, either, where another church I visited mentioned buying books at the bookstore all the time. I don’t think he was on any bestseller lists, so I doubt he was buying his own books to get that (a la Mark Driscoll).

  118. SiteSeer: I’ve been to a lot of churches in my life where gossip was considered anathema. The interesting thing I observed is, it never stopped the malicious kind of back-stabbing gossip; it only stopped the well-meaning people from the normal sharing of information.

    It’s also interesting that the leaders have no problem telling who they think is “bad” and “good”. It’s only defined “gossip” if a member is doing it. A lot of leaders act like their motivations are way above an average member, when often they are not.

  119. ishy: A lot of leaders act like their motivations are way above an average member, when often they are not.

    This really resonates with my observations, and in my experience, it led to really bad choices by, and bad outcomes for, the leaders.

    hubris, meet nemesis

  120. SiteSeer: The conclusion was that organisations that allow their members to gossip will be more cooperative and deter selfishness better than those that don’t.

    This is really interesting. And it suggests a mechanism by which “the church” could be worse than garden-variety “the world.” So perhaps our intuitions and “gut-feel” reactions have perhaps not been “off”, after all.

  121. SiteSeer: It’s interesting how often the subject of “gossip” comes up in terms of heavily controlling churches like this.

    Sermons about gossip are included in the tool kit of a controlling pastor. They are intended to shame the congregation into keeping their mouths shut about him. See something, say something … yep, even in church!

  122. Leah Jacobs: pastors giving away their books or those of their dude-bros is just a way to boost the sales numbers. … In my local area, a former pro athlete has hit it big in the Christian world. Every newcomer to his large non-denom church gets a copy of his latest book. When he’s written a new one, he will actually sell and sign

    You’d have to see their publishing contracts to know the ethics.

    Traditionally, authors have been paid in advances and royalties. If authors buy their own books at discount and give them away, they receive royalties and might even trigger an escalation of royalties. This is/was acceptable under many contracts.

    If authors buy books at discount and sell them at full retail at events not sanctioned by the publisher, they get the royalties and potential escalation, in addition to pocketing the difference between their discounted price and full retail. Many traditional publishing contracts forbid this.

    It’s been awhile since I read a book contract… I hope others will chime in if they have specific knowledge.

  123. Friend: It’s been awhile since I read a book contract… I hope others will chime in if they have specific knowledge.

    It varies a lot depending on popularity. If the author is regularly a bestseller, then they receive more benefits than losses on giving away books, and often purchase them themselves just to get on the bestseller list, as Driscoll infamously did with the church’s money. These authors then get booked for paid speaking gigs, and it ends up in more bestsellers and full-price book sales.

    Someone who isn’t with a top-tier publishing company or who isn’t a bestseller will probably lose more than they gain by buying and selling their books at cost, or giving them away. A lot of people think authors get a lot of royalties, but the publishing company takes most of the profit. Not-so-popular authors are often encouraged to tour and speak on their own dime. It was one reason I didn’t find being an author very profitable.

  124. Max,

    “Pastors who don’t take God’s side when a little one is abused are acting inappropriately; silence is not appropriate for a man of God in such situations.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i agree… although i’m bothered by the fact that “God’s side” changes depending on who you’re talking to. (and depending on which professional christian’s career and peer-standing are at risk)

    “God’s side” is like silly putty. like the wondertwins zan and jayna’s superpowers.

    “Shape of… something-so-specific-it-creates-in-groups-and-out-groups-and-i-get-to-be-part-of-the-in-group.”

    next time it’s “Shape of…. something-even-more-specific-so-i-can-create-my-own-in-group.”

    (goodness, the cognitive dissonance they’re completely oblivious to — the subtext that only they make the cut into heaven [which i suppose isn’t dissonance, but doublethink].

    christian leaders (and those in their sway) make “God’s side” on many issues into a variety of contradictory things. they can’t all be right. (well, they insist that only they are right)

    just one reason i’m exceedingly exasperated with this silly religion of mine.

    i prefer to think of God’s side on this issue (and many others) as the plain and obvious common sense one.

    common sense = intregral to survival of the species. large part of what’s gotten us this far in the history of life on earth. ignore common sense at one’s own peril. if you’re a leader, then it’s at the peril of everyone in your sway, and beyond.

    as i see it, common sense is made in the image of God, in everyday language.

  125. ishy,

    Thank you.

    Also, publishing companies have long known that most authors struggle to fund their own writing, so they don’t often pursue them over ad hoc book talks.

    I’ve attended more than a few luncheons where the organizers paid for the author’s lunch and maybe gave a small honorarium, and the author said fascinating things about Italian furniture, or the history of Yorkshire terriers, and then sold books out of a box under a card table.

  126. elastigirl: christian leaders (and those in their sway) make “God’s side” on many issues into a variety of contradictory things. they can’t all be right. (well, they insist that only they are right)

    Ever notice that “God’s Side” always agrees 110% with these Christian Leaders?
    Including Hating all the out-groups the Christian Leader hates?

    Usually a supernatural force/being that docile and submissive to a mortal is called a Familiar Spirit.

  127. Leah Jacobs: I’m cynical enough now to believe that pastors giving away their books or those of their dude-bros is just a way to boost the sales numbers. And all those books that are given away at SBC conferences and T4G aren’t just due to the generous nature of publishers. Somebody is buying them.

    Maybe pastor himself via such book-juicing companies as Result Source?
    (Which had a special Religious/Inspirational section before the Driscoll scandal hit and they had to change their name and website.)
    Which leaves pastor with lotsa boxes of books from the juicing; how else can you dispose of them?

  128. SiteSeer: I’ve been to a lot of churches in my life where gossip was considered anathema. The interesting thing I observed is, it never stopped the malicious kind of back-stabbing gossip; it only stopped the well-meaning people from the normal sharing of information.

    FEATURE, NOT BUG.

  129. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “I am not sure if their followers put up with this because they have been groomed to think they are stupid, or because they were stupid to begin with.

    In any case, that culture appears to have a group of upper crust who feel the need to tell everyone else what to do or think for just about everything.

    If articles like this are really needed, then Christians must be the most clueless people on the planet.

    Is there a connection between this and all the abuse? Are articles like this part of the grooming process to get people to believe lame excuses for abuse? Is it a way to dull people’s discernment?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    i’m listening to jazz while i process and try to respond, here. (freddie hubbard, 1967)

    (sure am using different parts of my brain at once…. but, CAN multitask.)

    they didn’t start out stupid and clueless.

    plenty of highly-educated and professionally successful people have gotten sucked into churchbrain —

    church brain: the part of the brain that takes over when you’re at a church function, or when talking to a church person, especially the leader. the part of the brain where neuron pathways close up and regress (or turn green with purple polka dots, who knows)…

    whatever it is, critical thinking shuts down.

    (until you rise up against it and say “Enough! It’s over – Enough!” [cue Harrison Ford at the end of the film Witness])

    more and more i’ve noticed in evangeliworld that “faith” = silencing one’s common sense and conscience. (but i’ve already said exactly this and am repeating myself. i blame it on the jazz — but it’s too pleasurable to turn it off)

    this rise in ‘faith nonsense’, i think, is in direct proportion to the accelerated rate at which change happens in society.

    christianland is always 40 or so years late in adjusting to things.

    (ie, the evangelical sexual revolution…. 40 years after it took hold elsewhere — and while the real one was freeing and about freedom [arguably in some very good ways that are not incompatible with the bible], evangelicalism’s delayed-reaction-version appeared to be about freedom, but was laden with legislation. a tightening vice-grip on people.)

    religion is about rules and control. and no, christianity is *not* about relationship. in theory, of course it is. in practice, christian culture thrives on rules and control. it needs them as much as food and water.

    so, when society changes fast, christian culture recoils and doubles-down on rules and control. but they dress it up pretty and “godly-like”, and call it things like “biblical” and “gospel-” and “beautiful”. with a non-threatening but persuasive smile and tone of voice.

    human beings want to do well. they want to do right by what’s right, whether that’s in the form of God or brotherly/sisterly love.

    ‘church’ is a good avenue for this. and since God is invisible, a leader is a comforting thing.

    too bad these leaders are losing their ability for critical thinking themselves, and have made themselves too impressionable to the agendas of christian powerbrokers in high places.

    really starting to ramble here. i’m listening to wayne shorter now.

  130. Friend: I’ve attended more than a few luncheons where the organizers paid for the author’s lunch and maybe gave a small honorarium, and the author said fascinating things about Italian furniture, or the history of Yorkshire terriers, and then sold books out of a box under a card table.

    Yeah, I’ve been to a few of those. I wrote fluff novels, so I spoke at a few conventions, but the most I got paid was $25 for being on panels for 2 days.

    I was a self publisher, but I had offers from a couple small-medium publishers, and they were not great. I definitely made more self publishing than I ever would have going with a company. But that’s definitely a bonus now, because self publishers are producing good books for a lot cheaper, and I know a few authors who ended up trying working with a company after a small success, regretted it, and walked back out for the next book. One in particular didn’t realize the contract stipulated that the series title and characters were now owned by them and not him, so he couldn’t self publish sequels even though the contract was for a sequel to a self published book. There was a lot of sneaky and downright abusive stuff in publishing contracts if you didn’t have a good lawyer go over the contract.

  131. elastigirl: i prefer to think of God’s side on this issue (and many others) as the plain and obvious common sense one

    Agreed. Folks who would try to argue otherwise are not in their right mind.

  132. elastigirl: i’m exceedingly exasperated with this silly religion of mine

    I hope I live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached. It seems that every Christian expression is certain that they alone have a corner on the truth. Those who came against Jesus were religious leaders who preferred their religion over the Kingdom of God brought to earth by Christ … that hasn’t changed in 2,000 years.

  133. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “Is there a connection between this and all the abuse? Are articles like this part of the grooming process to get people to believe lame excuses for abuse? Is it a way to dull people’s discernment?”
    ++++++++++++++

    i didn’t respond to this part. (now i’m listening to bill evans)

    i’ll take a stab at it.

    i think most christian leaders are good people. but they’ve gotten side-tracked.

    it’s no surprise that church-as-a-business model has gotten traction. it’s affirming of money and power — and base human nature’s less angels really start talking at that point.

    so, side-tracked by money and power as ordained by God and indicative of how well you’re pleasing God.

    (talk about doublethink)

    side-tracked by the christian sociopaths at the top. who have developed doctrine and theology which control people more and more. because they either believe they speak for God, or else they play the character of one who speaks for God.

    (drum solo now)

    so, christian leaders have been tricked into thinking it’s a good idea to jump onto the platforms of sociopaths riding high on their way to building their own platform.

    since sociopaths have a need to control people, dulling their senses is naturally a part of it. christian leaders who at least started out as healthy individuals just sort of emulate it all.

    ….but this is old news.

    the constant barrage of articles from christian leaders about when and how you should pick your nose in a way that glorifies God is an expression of their learned belief that they are amongst the favored who speak for God. which ties in nicely to building a media presence and a brand.

    …i’m sure there are deeper explanations. it’s just this piano solo, at the moment…

  134. pam: but am now looking for a small group setting (could be non-denominational). Not sure how to go about finding one. Might anyone have any ideas?

    I have an idea that comes from my own actual experience. I do not go to any 501c3’s currently after attending them for 48 years up until last October. This is because I cannot stand their hypocrisy and I know that none of them are actually doing what they are supposed to according to the New Testament. Instead, I find fellowship once a week in an unlikely place. I attend an online Christian mental health support group which I will be leading for the next two weeks. I prefer it as it is a peer-support group without any Titles. I co-facilitate with two other people. The main one is a female pastor. The last one was the wife of a pastor who works with youth.

    What I like about it is everyone is honest and humble. We all have problems and we are open and honest about those. We pray and support each other. We have seen tragedies and yet there has been some significant successes in the two and a half years I have been there. There is no singing, no announcements, no tithing, no sermons, just people looking in the mirrors at themselves and trying to let God fix the real issues and problems that are there. It looks much more like the N. T. Church then anything else I have seen.

    I was led there directly by the Holy Spirit in a dream. The dream pointed to a group that was somewhat like AA but with some differences. The physical groups I learned are run in exactly the way that I saw in the dream. My only suggestion to you then is to pray and ask God directly to show you where you should go. He speaks to me through dreams, but to others He uses other methods. I pray that you end up at a place where the people are:

    1) actually humble
    2) actually transparent
    3) do not lord any authority over you
    4) fear God and love God’s Word
    5) actually look into the mirror and are convicted by what they see
    6) value love in action over mere repeating of words

    God is the One you need to be asking because Jesus is Our Path. “In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.”

  135. Max,

    “I hope I live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached. It seems that every Christian expression is certain that they alone have a corner on the truth”
    +++++++++++++++++

    removing $ from the equation is a start. church no longer as profit center. bi-vocational, voluntary…

    of course, $ isn’t the only currency for controlling people (no pun intended, but then i saw the pun and kept it, so i guess intended)

  136. elastigirl: i prefer to think of God’s side on this issue (and many others) as the plain and obvious common sense one.

    It’s really hard to see it clearly until you come out of the bubble.

    Headless Unicorn Guy: Ever notice that “God’s Side” always agrees 110% with these Christian Leaders?

    Yes, and I’m noticing more and more that Christian leaders and their followers are embracing situation ethics in support of what they are sure “God’s side” is on things. After so many years of decrying the wickedness of situation ethics, turns out it’s okay in service of the group’s goals.

    elastigirl: human beings want to do well. they want to do right by what’s right, whether that’s in the form of God or brotherly/sisterly love.

    ‘church’ is a good avenue for this. and since God is invisible, a leader is a comforting thing.

    That really sums up so much of it. People who believe in God, want to please God, want to do what is good and right in his sight- but they make the mistake of letting another human being define what God wants from them, right down to the smallest details, and they take these persons at their word. You’ve got the pastor on Sunday, you’ve got the Bible study leader on Weds, then you’ve got all the Christian radio show talking heads and the books and the conferences and the websites every other day of the week, and you finally end up with a well-meaning person whose head is so full of other peoples’ ideas and rules (often times conflicting) that they can’t even hear their own thoughts or common sense anymore. Then they need the leaders to tell them what to think and do because they’ve lost their ability to think clearly themselves.

  137. “The victim in the eyes of the elders appeared to be TB, the perp, and the rest of his family.”

    DARVO is SUCH a helpful concept in explaining people’s crazymaking behavior. Once you know that’s a ‘thing’ it’s easy to pick it out.

    What a terrible story.

  138. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “”It is either a plot to convince Christians that they are unable to think for themselves, or they are so lost in their own bubble that they cannot imagine people being able to function normally.

    Maybe it is part of a plan to convince Christians that non-believers are so completely out of touch with reality that it makes no sense to rely on non-believers for anything, including how to handle abuse.””
    ++++++++++++++++

    my class was cancelled (“yay!….yay!…”) so it’s a responderama this morning. (while listening to music)

    *child-like faith

    *the sheep metaphor

    perhaps the idea is to regress everyone down to 3 years-old, then build them back up again with new information.

    and to convince them they are sheep, just as it should be, incapable of discerning much of anything. (although i think this is quite a false picture of sheep)

    after all, this is ‘very’ biblical.

    these things are helped along by references to “the world” (the scary, evil, worldly world), how dangerous it is, and how goblin-like everyone in “the world” is. (such as all the heathen you saw playing tennis out in the beautiful sunshine on your way driving in to church on any given sunday)

    play the God-card and it’s just all too easy.

    i think the leaders themselves have been duped into thinking everyone and everything outside their ‘church tribe’ is dangerous and suspect and inherently stupid and corrupt.

    (it’s so funny — all the times i got all too close to the epicenter of church leadership the stupidity and corruption was quite obvious. they had no idea that it was stupid and corrupt.)

    so, one of the symptoms of the brain disease ‘churchbrain’, which leaders are infected with and pass down to their parishioners, is to come up with ‘christian’ versions of everything.

    because you can’t be too careful, of course.

    (i feel like i’m stating the obvious over and over today)

  139. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Using Result source, a pastor is manipulating the system/market to spread the gospel.

    Ephesians 4:25: It’s lying to say “New York Times’ Best Selling Author _________” when you pretty much bought the rating.

    I can see where once this seems okay it becomes okay to disobey God on other stuff.

  140. pam,

    “I was on the cradle roll and grew up in the SBC but am now looking for a small group setting (could be non-denominational). Not sure how to go about finding one. Might anyone have any ideas?”
    +++++++++++++

    start a prayer group?

    i started a prayer group so i would actually pray a number of years ago. i told a few people who seem to know everyone everywhere, asked them to pass the word.

    it was a one-person group for a few months. in time, we were 2. then 3, 4. now we’re around 10.

    a variety of backgrounds (pentecostal/charismatic, lutheran, baptist-like, eastern orthodox, catholic…)

    we keep the main thing the main thing, and have learned not to feel weird with different ways of praying (references to saints, quiet praying in tongues, etc)

    anyway, it can be a great little community.

  141. elastigirl,

    Personal experience, having lived in southern Utah, the Mormons are the same way. One of the TV stations in Salt Lake UT did a study on divorce rates between Mormons and Non Mormons.

  142. pam: Are some of you folks stating that sex w/o marriage is ok? If you are a Christian, could you tell me how you reconcile that with the New Testament?

    I don’t like to get too off topic with this, as dee mentioned people have different views, but as it pertains to this site I mainly stick to the point that consensual sex between adult parties who are not married should not be treated a if it is the same as un-consenting sex or sex with minors. That’s really where our focus should be and conflating the two, or minimizing abuse while hammering people for personal relationships, is far too common in the church.

  143. Daisy: Everyone spits on all aspects of “Purity Culture” because it’s not “sex positive” enough, yada yada.

    This is *not* why people spit on purity culture.

  144. MuslinHolmes: And I can guarantee you that the guys, any guys, they never got slut shamed either. It was only the girls who got told we were used Kleenex, plucked flowers, damaged goods, etc., etc. NOBODY NEEDS TO BE HEARING THAT.

    So yeah, very glad to see slut shaming go away

    Yes.

  145. Friend: Doesn’t work when the addresses in the church directory are, ah, remarkably similar.

    There is a married couple who have been at my church for 20+ years and the husband (for reasons I was told but do not recall) never moved his membership until last year! Ha.

  146. Ken: For example, TGC published this one today:

    What christians should know about coronavirus??? That’s so weird. As if Germs care about your religion.

  147. ishy: Also, after attending a public university where several of my professors made you buy their brand new books and gave you class points on it (I don’t see how that was legal or school-approved, but everybody seemed to know about it), several of my professors at SEBTS gave their books to students each semester

    I went to a private but not religious school and I had one or two of both – a professor who gave you their book because they thought it was unethical to require you to buy it, and an adjunct I think who made you buy his book even though it looked like it had been made up at kinkos! But he said it was cheaper than another textbook would have been and that was definitely true.

  148. Lea: What christians should know about coronavirus??? That’s so weird.

    Exactly. So I searched on “what should Christians know about using the toilet?” and found a hilarious church satire site. Some very frustrated people (ex-Baptists) appear to have put an incredible amount of effort into building and maintaining the site. Poe’s law makes me reluctant to name the site.

  149. elastigirl: I was on the cradle roll and grew up in the SBC but am now looking for a small group setting (could be non-denominational). Not sure how to go about finding one. Might anyone have any ideas?”
    +++++++++++++

    start a prayer group?

    Great idea. You can also start a home group that prays, reads only the Bible, and focuses on encouraging each person to do one thing (which they come up with for themselves) based on what you read that week. No money. No lead pastor. Meet at a coffee shop or meet in a home. Doesn’t matter. I know a guy who advertised on craiglist in order to start a group just like this. It worked!

  150. Fisher: No lead pastor

    You might be in trouble if you visit a church and the leader’s title is “Lead Pastor” … the New Calvinists LOVE that term … even if they are in their 20s, they put that label on themselves.

  151. Thanks for all your ideas and advice re a small group! And Leslie, wow. I’m so sorry you & your family has been thru so much at different churches. I think it is harder when the people causing pain are in your church. We expect them to know better. Reality begs to differ sometimes.

  152. Mr. Jesperson,

    Mr. Jesperson

    You do not know GBTC or me in regards to the issue of creationism.For you to assume you did the research and GBTC has not is downright silly and uninformed.A number of us in our area know a great deal about the subject. We have not only researched it for ourselves but we held debates in Sunday School. We have attended talks by folks like Hugh Ross. I have written on this subject numerous times in past. Before you tell GBTC to do his research, I suggest that you do yours. He could run rings around past most people.

    Do NOT derail this important post with talks of your reading on the matter. Both he and I will disagree with you and you can read about what we believe if you would take some time to click on the subject.
    No further discussions on this matter in this post will be allowed. Please stop it now and instead show respect to this family who have come forward with their story.

  153. Let’s try to stick to the topic of this post. This family has been through so much and we need to focus other difficult situation.