“Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point, which means, at the point of highest reality. A chastity or honesty or mercy which yields to danger will be chaste or honest or merciful only on conditions. Pilate was merciful till it became risky.” -C. S. Lewis
It appears that some women with lots of initials after their names believe that only women can properly respond to what they hold to be (or define to be) a *women only *issue. That is only women can properly interpret a rather embarrassing usage of a common phrase which could possibly embarrass women. And if those women say it is OK, it must be OK.
Here is the statement from some female professors at Louisiana College.
Now I am sure that there are few people out in Webville who would ever mistake me as a quiet, submissive female who caves to male interpretations of *happenings* without fail. At the same time, I have identified a number of men whose opinion I respect. Wade Burleson is one of the foremost proponents of women in leadership and ministry within the SBC. Perhaps these women didn’t have the time to do their research on who is an advocate and who is not an advocate for women’s issues (besides women, of course.)
And since I have the proper DNA, let me say something in the most female of ways. At time, there are some women who might play the female card in order to be accepted by conservative SBC male leaders or conservative SBC institutions. They may even be given certain perks for defending the status quo.
I’m not saying that this applies to these women. They could truly believe, deep down inside their hearts, that they are correct in their interpretation of what was said. So be it. But they should not do what men have done to women in the past. I’m sure many of them would remember those days. I sure do. “Those poor little women just don’t understand things like we men understand things.”
I implore you to make your case but please cut out the *Those idiot men just don’t understand things like the way we women understand things.” You are kicking to the curb some men who really get the problems that all women face in the SBC. I left the SBC because of witnessing a mess surrounding the sex abuse of a number of teen boys. The perp is in prison. But, before that happened, I was told that women could not teach men unless they were under the covering of a man. I watched women being told to put up with abusive marriages and learn to submit better. Women have had it rough in the SBC. That’s why we need to discover who our friends are.
I thank God that He brought men into my life who deeply respect and promote women as leaders. Take a moment and read Wade’s last dozen or so posts. I think you will get it. He is on your side.
I support Russell Meeks and believe that he correctly interpreted what was said. I have asked a number of millennials what *mow your lawn* means. They all laughed. They get it, too. Meeks really believes in what he heard. Who in the world would resign his position due to a simple misunderstanding? I’m sure good academic jobs do not abound in Pineville. Academic positions are not easy to come by anywhere.
I have one thing to say to Louisiana College. The Matthew 18 sledgehammer is one of the most misused verses in Scripture. It’s a way for one person to say to another “I didn’t like what you had to say. It embarrasses me even though you may be right. So, I’m going to call you a sinner in order to get you to shut you up.” Foul! Instead of sending emails to an entire organization, why not sit down and hash it out one on one like you know Jesus want? Better yet, just don’t play Biblical gotcha games.
So, I am reposting Wade’s post on my blog. I own the blog and I am definitely a female who believes that women have been placed unjustly in subordinate positions in the SBC.
Sincerely,
Dee BSN, MBA and all around meddling provocateur (AAMP)
(If a PHD is ever awarded for *provocateuring,* I should be awarded one straight away.)
Louisiana College and Ladies Mowing Their Lawns: Wade Burleson
On Sunday, February 10, 2019, investigative reporters Robert Downen (Houston Chronicle), Lise Olsen (Houston Chronicle), and John Tedesco (San Antonio Express-News) published the first of their stomach-churching three-part series entitled Abuse of Faith.
With bulldog determination and Pulitzer-Prize level reporting, these three reporters uncovered a systemic problem in the Southern Baptist Convention, one that we refused to confront ourselves.
Southern Baptists have a pattern of covering up for their own.
On Thursday, February 14, 2019, just four days after the release of Abuse of Faith, Dr. Joshua Dara, the Dean of The School of Human Behavior at Louisiana College (Southern Baptist-affiliated), spoke at the school’s chapel service.
A video or audio recording of Dr. Dara’s chapel presentation has never been released to the public. Other recordings of chapel sermons at Louisiana College, both before and after Dr. Dara’s message, can be watched or heard at Louisiana College’s website.
According to those present at the chapel service, Dr. Joshua Dara spoke on the topic of relationships. It was an appropriate topic for Valentine’s Day. But what he said was extremely inappropriate.
In the course of his message, Dr. Joshua Dara suggested to the ladies listening that he knew why their phones were not ringing, meaning why members of the opposite sex weren’t calling them. Dr. Joshua Dara suggested that men like the ladies who keep their houses clean and mow their lawns.
Stop.
People fifty years of age and older who compose a majority of the Southern Baptist Convention probably think that mow your lawn means getting on a John Deer lawnmower and cutting the grass in front of your house.
Of course, in the context of a college talk where most ladies live in dorms, that definition of mow your lawn doesn’t fit. And besides, cutting grass in your yard as the definition of mow your lawn is from a culture that existed long ago.
Today, in our pornographic “women-are-sex-objects” culture, mow your lawn means “shave your pubic hair.” The kids at Louisiana College got the pornographic reference. That’s why many burst out laughing.
But there’s more.
Dr. Dara suggested that someone who has men go in and out of her house is like a “crackhouse.” So, keep your house clean and mow your lawn to get your phone ringing, but don’t let all those men who are calling you go in and out of your house at their pleasure or you’ll be known as a “crackhouse.”
Of course, entering a lady’s house is a cultural euphemism for sexual union. To give Dr. Dara the benefit of the doubt, I’m sure he was attempting to relate to college kids with humor.
But even assuming the best intentions of the chapel speaker, the language used by Dr. Dara is wholly inappropriate and offensive. That’s why the recording has not been released. Administrators are keeping it under wraps.
That’s also why Karen Watkins, the Executive Assistant to Louisiana College President Rick Brewer, sent the following email to faculty and staff less than a week after the chapel message. The first part is written by Philip Caples, the LC administrator in charge of chapel services, and the second by Josh Dara. Read carefully the apology contained within it:
“What occurred was evidence of differences in cultural perceptions and nomenclatures.”
“I am sorry to hear some of you were offended…”
Dr. Russell Meek and His Offense at the Chapel Message He Heard
Dr. Russell Meek, Assistant Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Louisiana College, sat horrified listening to Dr. Dara speak during the February 14 student chapel. As a faculty member representing Louisiana College, Russ knew he had to do something.
The next morning, Friday, February 15, 2019, following the school’s Handbook and Procedure Policy Manual, Dr. Meek asked for and received a meeting with Dr. Philip Caples. Dr. Caples is the Vice-President for Integration of Faith and Learning at Louisiana College, and he is over the school’s mandatory chapels.
Dr. Caples listened as Dr. Meek expressed his concerns. He let Russ know that he had heard from other faculty as well. Though the meeting was brief, Russ felt hopeful. He believed that the administration of Louisiana College would issue some kind of formal discipline against Dr. Dara, or at the very least, a public statement distancing the college from what Dr. Dara had said.
Dr. Meek went on to teach his classes that day and heard from many of his students, both male and female, who expressed their frustrations and confusion over the chapel message. Dr. Meek would later write an email to his students:
“I just wanted to thank you for speaking up in class today about your feelings regarding the chapel sermon. A biblical view of humans as created in God’s image and intrinsically valuable because of that is very important to me, as it is to you.”Then, the following Wednesday (Feb 20), the President’s Executive Assistant Karen Watkins sent the email from Caples and Dara which seemed to fault listeners at the previous week’s chapel for not understanding the“cultural perceptions and nomenclatures” of the speaker.
Twenty-one minutes after that email from Karen went out, President Rick Brewer sent another email to the faculty and staff of Louisiana College a second email. This email, sent from the office of Norman Miller, Director of Communications at Louisiana College, warns the reader about Matthew 18.
Norm Miller, one of the contributors to the now-defunct SBC Today, followed the instructions of the Louisiana College President and sent this second email as a warning to Louisiana College faculty and staff that they were not to speak of this chapel message to anyone other than to the speaker himself.
President Brewer also sent a Matthew 18 reminder email to students on the same day he sent one to the faculty (Wednesday, February 20, 2019). That email, according to a student who spoke to the President, was intended to protect Dr. Dara.
An Appeal to Address the Issue of the Sexualization of Women at Baptist Institutions
After receiving both emails from the President’s staff, Dr. Russ Meek drafted and sent an email to President Rick Brewer on Friday, February 22, 2019.
In his email to the President, Russ stated clearly his offense, not only with Dr. Joshua Dara (the chapel speaker) but now his offense with the administration of Louisiana College and President Rick Brewer himself for not addressing the issue.
Russ wrote, “You admonished us to reach out personally to someone when offended, so I am sending you this email as a brother in Christ. I realize that you are my boss and the leader of LC, so please know that I write this with humility and with a deeply grieving heart. I am not angry; I am very saddened by the events that transpired last week. This is indeed much more than an issue of being offended,; it is an issue of biblical truth and how God himself views women and tells us to view them.”
Dr. Russ Meek then wrote the following to President Brewer. It’s rather lengthy, but it’s important for you to read carefully. It represents the kind of leaders we need in the SBC to change the culture.
“On Thursday morning, still reeling from the sexual abuse uncovered by the Houston Chronicle and reported on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, I came to chapel at Louisiana College looking for a reprieve from the darkness swirling around the SBC. Instead, I was confronted head-on with the culture that makes such abuse possible.
Joshua Joy Dara, the dean of LC’s school of human behavior, delivered a message on relationships-fitting for Valentine’s Day. He offered sound advice to women about finding a godly spouse. Toward the end of his sermon, his language took an offensive and unbiblical turn. He addressed specifically the women in the chapel service, telling them to think of their bodies as houses. He then told them to “mow your lawn” and advised that if they were not getting attention from men, it was because they were “not taking care of your house.” He continued in this vein, at one point stating that women who have “let too many men” into their house are a crackhouse. Let that sink in – crackhouse.
In those final minutes of his sermon, Dara reduced women to physical objects who existed for a man’s pleasure. He then told them that if they had sex with too many men, they were not only valueless but indeed repulsive. A crackhouse.
This sermon has not been posted on LC’s YouTube channel, which houses dozens of other chapel messages, and those who have asked for a copy of the sermon, including the school’s Title IX coordinator, have been denied access to it. I -along with others at LC – expressed my concerns and the concerns of several of my students to the vice president for the integration of faith and learning. I was shocked that a dean at LC had presented such an unbiblical, false picture of women.
Let me say this clearly: no woman is a crackhouse. No woman exists for the pleasure of a man. No woman’s value is in her physical appearance. The Bible is very clear about this. In the poem of the valiant woman in Proverbs 31, the only thing said about beauty is that it is fleeting. Peter calls women to be beautiful on the inside rather than focusing on their outward appearance (1 Peter 1:3- 4). The Lord said to Samuel when he was seeking to anoint the next of Israel, “Do not look on his [Eliab’s] appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7). Think even of our Lord Jesus Christ, who “had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him” (Isa 53: 2). When Jesus encountered the woman at the well, did he call her a crackhouse? No, he gave her living water.
Dara wrote an apology that was emailed to the faculty, staff, and student body. In it, he apologized for “the tone” of his sermon, expressed gratitude that it was brought to his attention, and ended by saying, “I’ll be sure to weigh my warped sense of humor against my sense of propriety and choose something that isn’t controversial. ” I am thankful for Dara’s apology, but it still troubled me that he did not address the misogynistic view of women in his sermon.
Dara delivered a public message in chapel, at the least implicitly endorsed by those who gave him the platform to do so, in which he reduced women to sexual objects and communicated that their value was in how many sexual partners they had. Yes, this is offensive. Yes, this is a false gospel. And yes, this message was delivered publicly as biblical truth. Such a message goes far beyond the confines of Matthew 18. Louisiana College is not a church, and this was not a private sin. In addition, one wonders how victims of sexual abuse and harassment are to feel safe in a place that rebukes them for complaining about misogyny preached in the school’s chapel. Is a rape victim supposed to confront her rapist privately before seeking “more ‘official’ redress”? And what if the rapist repents? Is the victim supposed to forego “more ‘official’ redress”? I know such questions are absurd, but Brewer’s email was sent in the context of concern over degrading and sexualized comments about women. How can we protect the abused from the powerful if the powerful are able to hide behind Matthew 18?
The fruits of misogyny are abuse. Physical, verbal, sexual abuse. Men are told that women are objects for their pleasure. Women are told that their value is in their sexuality and physical appearance. And all this is presented as true . As the Southern Baptist Convention reckons with the current sexual abuse scandal, we must address institutions that foster the teaching and worldview that engenders such abuse.”
Problems at Louisiana College
If you’ve made it this far reading this blog, then you a Christian interested in solutions, not just the problems.
Dr. Russ Meek’s email to President Brewer led to a meeting on February 25, 2019, in Dr. Brewer’s office with the following four people present: 1). Dr. Rick Brewer, President of Louisiana College, 2). Dr. Cheryl Clark, Vice-President for Academic Affairs, 3). Dr. Philip Caples, Vice-President for the Integraton of Faith and Learning, and 4). Dr. Russell Meek.
Dr. Caples didn’t say much in the meeting, but Dr. Brewer and Dr. Clark had a great deal to say to Dr. Meek. Three days after this meeting, on February 28, 2019, Dr. Russell Meek resigned from his position at Louisiana College, effective May 4, 2019.
What was said in the President’s office to Dr. Meek will be summarized in five statements with a sentence or two of commentary from me:
- Dr. Clark said to Dr. Meek, “Why do you want to do that at all (make public what happened at the chapel)? Why do it? If every action that we take at this institution is either for the good of the institution or it harms the institution? Which do you think that’s going to do? How is that going to help the institution? What good comes out of that? That’s what I don’t really get. I really don’t.”
Dr. Clark, go back and read article Abuse of Faith. The systemic problem in the SBC is leaders are more concerned with the institution than with the abused. You, of all people, should know better.
- Dr. Brewer said to Dr. Meek, “This (Russ’s email above) has already been reviewed by our attorney. He says it’s actionable. It’s libelous. It’s slanderous. It’s defamatory, and it’s inflammatory. And by the way, you’re taking on one of the most powerful, if not one of the Top Five most powerful people, in Central Louisiana. Not me, Joshua Dara. He’s an attorney as well, Russ. He’s got a strong legal mind.”
Dr. Brewer, take it from one who has been threatened multiple times (me). When threats like yours are made, it’s a tell-tale sign that the threatened person should keep pressing.
- Dr. Brewer said to Dr. Meek,“Go see Dr. Dara. Go sit down with him. He’s one of our own. He’s a dean. Now what if he had been a person who just came and spoke and flew out and he wasn’t a member of our team, a member a family? We’d take a different approach most likely on that. Yeah. But, uh, he (Dr. Joshua Dara) is with us. He’s a member of our family.”
Dr. Brewer, are you serious? Protecting your own is never a Christian principle. Judgment should begin in the house of God.
4. Dr. Meek said to all LC Administrators present: “I’m concerned for the women who think that what Dr. Dara said is true. Their identity is not found in how many sexual partners they’ve had. My concern is for the women who think, ‘I’ve had sex with a lot of guys.’ Is she a crackhouse? I have a family member who was molested as a child by multiple people in her family. Is she a crackhouse? Is her identity bound up in how many sexual partners she’s had? If men don’t pursue a woman is it because the woman is ugly? He said if your phones aren’t ringing It’s because you’re not getting taking care of your house. Dr. Brewer, women are made in God’s image. This is a fundamental gospel issue. Who humans are. I’m not mad; I’m grieved. If I had a daughter I would be horrified to know that she was being told these things about herself.”
Standing…applauding.
5. Dr. Brewer said to Dr. Meek about the chapel video: “We’ll post it. But I heard so much riff-raff, why would I put that out there for some of the cynics on this campus, faculty, and students, who will take the clips they don’t approve and post them on Twitter and make fun of this man. Would you want me to do that Russ? It’s uncontrollable at that point, isn’t it? But I’ll be glad to put it out there if that’s what bothering you and other people that you think I’m trying to hide. I’m not trying to hide anything.”
Sitting…waiting.
The Follow-Up
The video of the chapel sermon is still not posted.
Louisiana College administrators canceled the scheduled April 2019 conference entitled “What is a Woman Worth?” – a conference that was to be led by Dr. Meek – and refused to reschedule it for later in the semester.
Dr. Russ Meek resigned and is no longer a faculty member at Louisiana College.
All the administrators named above remain at Louisiana College.
On the official last day of employment at Louisiana College, Dr. Russell Meek wrote a paper entitled Misogyny in Baptist Higher Education.
At some point, all Southern Baptists will understand what the issues really are.
First?
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Next
Thankfully the chapel message didn’t explore the usage of weed-eaters by husbands.
I wonder what Dara told the boys to do …..
Maybe till their gardens and empty the attics???
I hope you’ve already landed somewhere else, Russell, someplace where they don’t protect their “family” like La Cosa Nostra.
What shocked me more than the language was a chapel speaker instructing women to use sexual attraction to lure men. He came close to recommending that they sleep around. How about giving men and women clues for establishing lasting relationships? How about expressing some support for holding back, and for the dignity of singles as well as couples?
The speaker was also holding women solely responsible for failing to attract partners. Has this guy not heard of Fortnite? Young men and their avatars are busy!
Did a web search: slang mow the lawn.
The top hit came back: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mow%20the%20lawn
Pretty clear what that phrase means – with multiple entries no less.
And we are to believe Dr. Dara was simply trying to be “relevant” by using that phrase? That this was just his “warped sense of humor”? Warped indeed.
Christian single women aren’t getting dates because they don’t shave hair which no one else is supposed to see?
How in the world would any chaste Christian guy even KNOW if his date did or didn’t shave?
Seriously Dr. Dara, do you enjoy being a fool?
Dr. Russ Meek you are a true man of character. May your light shine ever brighter!
This is so disturbing. If a Baptist institution will treat a professor like this because he raises concerns about the objectification of women in a chapel service, I can only imagine what it would be like for a woman to come forward with an allegation of abuse or rape to within this institution. It’s just sickening how Meeks was bullied and threatened by “Christian leaders.”
Dee.
I’m confused regarding the statement’s use of the word, pornographic. I did not consider personal grooming to be pornagraphy. But, there are a lot of things Evangelical that have confused me for years.
Next. I thought the message of the SBC is that women are specifically not strong, and are not leaders. Yet this statement is purportedly female and strong.
Finally. It appears Pastor Burleson has been accused of immorality. (Pornographic)
He either is, or is not pornographic. Likewise, the aforementioned phrase is, or is not a comendation of female yardwork enthusiast.
I point out a simple and authoritative solution to this disagreement.
Would you be willing to invite an official verdict from the Executives of pornhub regarding these allegations?
Would you also invite both sides to agree in advance to accept and abide by the expert opinion, in order to restore peace to the House of God.
As it is written. Blessed are the peacemakers.
“He then told them that if they had sex with too many men, they were not only valueless but indeed repulsive. A crackhouse.”
These men are sooooooooo chronically stupid, selfish, and extremely misogynistic. To a woman or girl who has been a sex slave this is massively toxic.
I was sexually abused as a child and at age thirteen I believed god and his men hated me for not being a virgin for my husband.
I find Christian men to be so selfish and stupid; I have no respect for MOST of them.
And why can all these Christian male leaders be so unattractive? I would not have any of these men for a billion. They open their mouths and their sex appeal drops even more. They sound like a group of bitter incel pedophiles.
These men are just vapid vapid rubes.
Men who want women to look like little girls down there are most always pedophiles.
White-washed septic tanks will be white-washed septic tanks. Putting the words Jesus Christ together with status symbols, power, and high paying jobs is like putting poison in your birthday cake. There is so much that goes on in religious institutions that is downright despicable and clearly anti-Jesus in practice. This is what the heads of this garbage institution have done. I have literally seen hell from the vantage point of someone religious who thought he was a sheep but was a goat. It was the most real experience I have ever had. Men like these with their worldly titles borrowed from worldly business language are sure to go there. Sons of the Devil act like the Devil who knows no humility. And neither do his sons, and they do not ever issue apologies unless they are cornered and their lawyers(Jesus hated the scribes in His day) tell them they have no other choice. And then it is insincere and political instead of humble.
It’s pretty clear from the context what he was talking about. And from the context, it seems like he thought women should be sex objects. It was so inappropriate in any context, but particularly a chapel service.
This is the college that was trying to open up a ‘Paul Pressler School of Law’ a few years back.
audio recording of Meeks’ meeting in February with three administrators including Cheryl Clark who’s now cooked up this ‘female academic leaders’ statement:
https://www.bayoubrief.com/2019/05/28/full-audio-louisiana-college-leaders-discuss-suppressing-criticism-of-joshua-joy-dara/
https://www.thetowntalk.com/story/news/education/2018/03/21/another-federal-lawsuit-against-lc-alleges-discrimination/443511002/
Carolyn Spears “is the third person since December to bring a federal discrimination lawsuit against the school.”
“The federal lawsuit claims Rick Brewer, the school’s president, and Cheryl Clark, vice president of academic affairs, first conspired to “embarrass and humiliate” Spears into resigning and alleges that Clark “openly attacked” Spears and called the courses she taught a “joke” during an April 2015 faculty meeting shortly after Brewer was hired.”
“Spears decided to file grievances with the college “as a result of the fear, humiliation and emotional distress caused by Dr. Clark’s public and professional attacks” and alleges school officials retaliated against her for attempting to do so.”
Who’s guided this outfit? Looks like ARBCA/Founders personality Fred Malone was a Louisiana College trustee:
https://press.founders.org/shop/exalting-christ/
“Fred A. Malone has served as pastor of First Baptist Church, Clinton, Louisiana, since 1993, having previously served eleven years as founding pastor of Heritage Baptist Church, Mansfield, Texas…Pastor Malone serves as a founding Board Member of Founder’s Ministries. He has served as a Trustee for The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Kentucky, for the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies, and for Louisiana College, Pineville, Louisiana. He has served on the Administrative Council of the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches in America and is Senior Fellow of the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies”
Maybe the speaker wears those X-Ray Specs they used to sell in comic books.
Jerome,
Before I saw your comment, the thought occurred, “what is it with older attorneys in the SBC?”
This is a really good point and it suggests that Dara was implicitly endorsing pre-marital “disclosure”, or worse, but only if one is monogamous-ish about it.
Dee,
Again, Is 6:9-13 comes to mind.
Someone stands in the gap, and the response is to drive him away.
The OT affirms that the eyes of YHWH search throughout the land seeking those whose hearts are firmly committed to Him, in order that He may strongly support them.
My private sense is that most of the redemptive work that God does in the world is done through the agency of people. Jesus is the pre-eminent example of that, but there are many lesser examples too.
The thought occurs that Dr. Meek may experience hardship as a consequence of his courageous stand. I’ll keep eyes peeled, but if information comes to you, perhaps apprise us so that we can help as he transitions to his next assignment. Perhaps there in this situation is a task for people of YHWH to help ensure that righteous voices are not silenced.
There are a lot of ways to encourage and inspire students to treat their sexuality as a gift from God not to be treated as a trifle, but to be saved for marriage, that do not involve crude comments about shaving public regions and do not involve calling people “crackhouses.”
Problem is Mr. Dare was apparently more interested in calling attention to his own relevance than he was in actually serving the interests of the young people and blessing them. We have way too many self-centered, disturbed emotional children in positions of power in Christendom.
The person who should have resigned is Mr. Dara. Not only does he say inappropriate things, he also misrepresents himself. I have never heard of someone with a JD using the prefix of Dr. before their name. Side note: Are Paige Patterson and Rick Brewer related? They look a lot a like and seem to use the same tactics.
Ok point one. I have been to Pineville.
Point two, I am not looking mow your lawn up in the dictionary but this person seems to be very fond of houses as metaphors, so it seems like that they was not talking literally about a lawn.
The crackhouse thing is particularly weird.
Would the female students who sat through that “sermon” endorse the statement by the female professors? What did they hear, how did they feel? Behind their nervous laughter after Dr. Dara’s statements, did they have concerns about what he was really saying?
Shame on Louisiana College for having no True concept of right and wrong (or maybe not caring)… Women should run from this place!
And of course, when mentions are made (as in Dara’s talk) of supposedly “promiscuous” women, there is never any mention of the men on the other side of the bed engaging in the same sexual behavior! Disgusting.
Then you shouldn’t google “Mark Driscoll Women as Houses”
Good Lord! Why can’t these people just preach the Gospel?!! Why can’t they exhort young believers to pursue holiness? Why can’t they instruct our youth as mature mentors of faith? Why do they continue to subordinate female believers? Why do they not value them as sisters in Christ who are equal heirs with men to the Kingdom of God? Why do they have to be so potty-mouth when they take the stage? Why are misogynists given a mic at Christian universities?
At that age I was in the campus Christian fellowship, and that message in chapel would have jarred my preserves—although I might have laughed at the outrageousness.
I’m struggling to imagine what the young men were thinking. The speaker was probably not describing their desires, or perceptions of the women around them.
This. 1000 times this. It was my first thought when reading Dara’s remarks.
Then I guess we can write it off as just another dirty ole preacher who says stupid things to get a laugh … and the response by the crowd as nervous laughter.
I have to say, I really like this guy at LC and his whole letter:
“The fruits of misogyny are abuse. Physical, verbal, sexual abuse. Men are told that women are objects for their pleasure. Women are told that their value is in their sexuality and physical appearance. And all this is presented as true . As the Southern Baptist Convention reckons with the current sexual abuse scandal, we must address institutions that foster the teaching and worldview that engenders such abuse.””
And prayers for Dr. Meek – I applaud his demonstration of love for God, love for others, and use of his God-given brain!
Hoping he finds new employment where these qualities are appreciated.
Yes, and I think there is a generational shift. The male college students I know have learned better than to try to pick women up, or approach them as anything other than classmates, neighbors, and friends. Sure, there are boors out there, but young men today are generally more astute about young women’s reactions to suggestive words and behavior. (Most students I know are in secular colleges. This is not a PC thing. It’s just decency.)
As does the whole world, not just Christendom.
They also blame them for too many partners, and unwanted partners, and stalking, and rape, and abuse and anything else they can possibly be blamed for.
Perhaps the implication is that these good Christian men who obviously deserve no criticism have sex with their dates and then deem them unworthy afterwards because they don’t perform ‘grooming’ (that is probably not ideal healthwise) and that’s totally ok and normal.
Could it be that Generation Z has more sense and sensitivity in this regard than Generations X and Y … and that Z-believers can influence a change in SBC attitude about the role of women in the Body of Christ?
I’m just baffled at what people think is appropriate now. Maybe I grew up TOO Baptist. These new tacky Baptists confuse me.
My daughter smacked a boy across the face for grabbing her friend’s booty in front of her – and she was only 13 at the time!
But the other reason (I think) men are more careful about behavior is that, at least in the secular world, there are (negative) consequences for treating women as sex objects!
Oh for the day when a creature like Dara were unceremoniously yanked from behind the pulpit and shown the door immediately. Where are the real men anymore?
Even a first year communications student ought to know that you don’t use those type of references. Ever. To do so reveals a fundamental disrespect for your audience and destroys your credibility.
And yeah, what message are you sending the young men? Become “lawn” inspectors? Apparently he never got to the passages about fornication in Scripture.
The only thing this incident reveals about Dara’s mind is that it is filled with unholiness and filth. Out of the heart the mouth speaks. Disgusting.
Then this sad situation begs the question: “Why was Dr. Dara given the privilege to speak at a Christian college chapel service? Just because a man has “Dr.” in front of his name doesn’t necessarily mean he has anything to say.
Dara has been awarded the Mark Driscoll Hideous Vaginal Metaphor Award and is now homeless.
I’m not surprised.
Especially since a LOT of these “Drs” are Honorary Doctorates awarded by another ManaGAWD BFF. Or (like Velour’s ex-Pastor) bought for $350 from a diploma mill.
Just what is a “verified” female?
I keep getting an image of “USDA Inspected” stamped on a side of beef or pork belly.
Mod: Edit to make it less R rated. GBTC
“…Dr. Joshua Dara, the Dean of the School of Human Behavior…”
You can’t make this stuff up.
Nathan, Dee:
As someone who’s seen REAL pornography (from my time in porn-heavy Furry Fandom), all I can say (over and over) is that these Preacher-Boyz who rail from the pulpit about “horrible filthy pornography” (like Playboy or Victoria’s Secret) have NEVER EVER seen the Real Thing.
I Have.
My daughter dragged a 12 year old boy down the bus isle by his hair for saying vulgar things to the girls on the bus – she was also 12 at the time. The actions of many of these kids reflect what they learn at home – I know my daughter did. Unfortunately, some of these bad-boys grow up to be bad-boy preachers – TWW writes about them all the time.
I thought “mowing the lawn” was a MANLY chore.
Well, he got the “__man behavior” right in his chapel sermon!
“Dara has never earned a Ph.D. or M.D. or any other doctoral degree conventionally associated with the honorific”
https://www.bayoubrief.com/2019/05/27/louisiana-college-professor-resigns-in-protest-after-school-leaders-conceal-lewd-sexist-comments-by-prominent-dean/
Depends on what you mean by “right”. \:-/
The whole incident is as bizarre as it is offensive. It’s as if Dara is expecting the students to fornicate anyway, in spite of Biblical ethics, and is giving them advice accordingly. The rest of what he said reminds me of Paige Patterson’s infamous remarks about why a lot of Christian female students at SBTS (I think) weren’t getting any dates.
Max,
Another guy with a fake degree. I wonder how many of these are floating around Baptist higher education?
I thought this was going to go in one of those dumb MRA/Men do lawn chores so don’t need to do housework directions…I was sadly mistaken.
Perhaps LC leadership didn’t know about the rumors of Judge Pressler’s moral failures over the years? Had they proceeded with that endeavor, the name of their law school would have been thrown on the ash heap of other bad ideas like those stained glass windows at SWBTS.
Did Joshua Dara address men, too? or only women?
was Dara concerned for women’s wellbeing, or was it for men’s wellbeing?
was the point of his message to shore up good female candidates for men for the sake of the men?
gawd, i’m so sick of it all.
————–
the message of christian culture:
1. it is the duty of a godly woman to make herself as attractive as possible to men
2. this is to fulfill her purpose in being a woman: satisfy men’s sexual needs
3. the purpose in being a woman is carried out by allowing the man to do whatever he wants to her body
4. when a man can’t find a suitable woman, it is the woman’s fault.
5. when a man finds a suitable woman but is not having his own needs met, it is the woman’s fault
6. when a man behaves badly in using the woman to meet his own needs, it is the woman’s fault.
7. should pregnancy result from a man forcing himself on a woman to meet his own needs, she alone bears the shame, the responsibility, and her life will never be the same again
8. should she choose to abort a pregnancy, she alone is shamed, hated, and she alone rightfully bears the punishment of murder under the full force of the law
9. the one and only responsibility of the man is to escape responsibility and call it leadership, and be congratulated for it.
Dr. Russell Meek, you are a champion and a hero to me.
“…but we still feel his message was entirely appropriate.” This was written by female professors at the college? You mean Dr. Meeks was less misogynistic to women than the female staff? Baffles the mind.
Ladies, don’t capitulate to ungodly culture feminist movement so you can challenge men’s power to gain human rights and self respect, but please capitulate to cultural trends started in ungodly porn because it pleases the men in power or else you will never marry!!! says the “Christian ” men. Never mind that inner beauty is really what both men and women should arrive for. In the meantime, all men should wax their privates for a year and get back to us how that all feels. Lol.
Dr Dara made comments to a group of people. The group of people have every right to digest amongst themselves the topics discussed.
The intentions of a speaker sharing thoughts to a group is, indeed, to have his comments make an impact on that group. Otherwise, the speaker wouldn’t bother to share and would opt to play golf or tidly winks.
A speaker is normally honored by having thoughts shared, discussed, deliberated, debated. He has won the day if people remember his words beyond the exit doors.
For a college to instruct people to discuss their concerns and critique of a public speech only with the speaker is disingenuous and in stark contrast to the goals of higher education, where sharing of ideas, debate, examination and the free flow of ideas make for rounded, intelligent grasp of the stated subject.
http://www.timesnews.net/Law-Enforcement/2019/06/20/Former-Camp-Bethel-leader-sentenced-in-1980-s-indecent-liberties-case.html?ci=stream&lp=3&p=1
And the stories keep coming even if they have been readily known (in this case back to 1993 when the board of the Christian camp) thought that counseling would fix sexual assault. It took until 2019 for the judge to slap a sentence on 12 months with six years suspended. This woman, now 48 has suffered a failed marriage and is still broken even though she has attained advanced education and now serves as a college professor.
I am heartbroken over these stories and wonder why we send our children to these schools? How confusing to be at a Christian higher education institution and to hear in a sermon, no less, the words and slang of the world. Young woman, basically forced to go to chapel to fulfill religious requirements and then to hear the non sense from a Dean? As a parent of student at a Christian college, I now regret basically begging her to attend a place that would allow abusers to live next door in the dorm. I think it’s time to revisit the purpose and value of Christian college. Why are parents paying double to four times the amount of State schools cost to endure milk toast theology and manipulative leadership. When you hear so called Christian leaders spiritualize their inaction and then pray over it, one must be alarmed Listening to that recording at LC literally made me sick. It seems like LC has struggled for 20 years of top leadership failures. Perhaps the only message that will fix these schools is the shutter of these “so called” Christian institutions. Is it any wonder that our churches and communities are so broken when those educating the future are without a soul?
I’m 55, and apparently, I am now officially old. I had NO idea that “mow your lawn” meant anything other than, “turn on a lawn mower and push it over the grass that surrounds your dwelling place until the grass is to your desired height.”
All I can say is, “What . . .??????”
Five to ten years from now, we may read/hear about some of “Dr” Dara’s male audience attacking women in their respective churches, Sheesh!
What really pains me is that I attended two Christian universities (one in the 80s, the other in the mid-late 90s) where chastity was the expectation. I don’t know what the expectation is at that this school, but if I were a parent funding my student’s education, we would be looking at other Christian institutions of higher learning. Dr Dara is basically saying that women need to be “attractive” so that men will go to bed with them. Just make sure it’s not too many men, if you’re the woman, so you don’t give an impression of sluttiness. His opinion of both sexes is really skewed, and does a disservice to the students at this school.
Re: “Here is the statement from some female professors at Louisiana College.”
I’m not clear as to why they are angry.
Are they lady complementarians, and they are angry at men (at least Wade) for not being complementarian?
or… They are just generally angry at men who speak out against what they perceive to be sexism against women?
I’m not in their university, I don’t attend or work there, but I am a woman who is okay with men speaking out against sexist “jokes” or sexist commentary made by other men there.
As I told Dee on Twitter, someone should use a weed wacker gardening analogy in reference to Joshua Dara’s “Yard”.
Or suggest that his Twig needs to be pruned with some clippers.
And Dara probably has some weeds and crab grass growing back by his fence that needs to be taken care of.
Look at all the dandelions in his back yard, whoa.
He probably has a gopher on his property burrowing underground, too.
When I was younger, I used to read conservative Christian articles and books for singles about dating and marriage.
Complementarians are inconsistent on these points.
In the works I read (many by complementarian authors), they tell the women readers that their value and identity is in Jesus alone…
But flip the page, and shortly there-after the same author is telling teen girls and adult women that God supposedly designed men to be “visual,” so, you better go get some cosmetic surgery, always wear make-up, and go get some lipo and go to the gym, because you are a fattie…
And no Christian man wants to date or marry an ugly, fat woman.
Complementarians teach girls and women their their worth and appeal is in their looks / sexuality -AND- it’s in Jesus.
What they teach about how to appeal to Christian men is what I’d expect secular culture to assume – that most secular men are primarily interested in a woman’s looks, not her intellect, personality, or morals.
Daisy,
IT’s kind of like saying that:
You have to be a firefighter to diagnose that your house is burning.
You have to be a mechanic to say a car is broken.
You have to be a doctor to say that someone who is vomiting is sick…
I could go on…with this thinking, segregation would never have ended in the south. Dr. King worked across the racial divide to achieve as much equality as possible.
I first read ‘crack whore’.
The conclusion I draw is that ‘they’ don’t want women there in any capacity, students, facility, or otherwise.
Either they really aren’t and this is a ploy or they’re friends with Mr. Dara. That’s the most likely answer to me.
I do occasionally get irritated when you see a bunch of men debating what women should and should not do, with no input from women, but I respect men like the letter writer who stand up for women.
Dr. Dara’s comments reminded me of similarly vulgar comments I heard Mark Driscoll make while promoting his marriage book back in 2012. I was so disgusted by Driscoll’s arguments that I couldn’t finish the book. It continues to amaze me how anyone can be taken seriously as a theologian when something other than the Bible is at the heart of their message. Shame on the leadership at LC for tolerating this nonsense. How can they expect their students to aspire to a higher standard as Christians if the exact opposite is presented as advice? (I never took Driscoll seriously again after that time–and within a few years discovered WW and your excellent work.)
Wait – he’s a dean and he never earned a doctoral degree? Is this school even accredited?
My earlier tongue in cheek comment about settling the LC dust-up by resorting to “expert” opinion aside, this is depressing.
Asking pornhub to make a public pronouncement would be a advertising smash. But pornhub sells a product that does not need or want advertising. They probably just want to be left alone. Should the Court Evangelicals succeed, lots of Americans (with unsavory past employment) should consider a dystopian future in which they will be shot. (By the hundreds of thousands)
My mounting discouragement comes from a sense of watching an out of control Evangelical clown car. But a clown car can run over anything in its path. It can kill you.
On Pastor Burleson and Meeks: Yes they are being accused. If not officially by LC, yet accused the same.
Finally regarding LC itself:
I would not want a female family member to attend this school. I would forever wonder if retaliation would occur towards my family, should any unfortunate event take place.
This feels like the best of times to be alive. I should feel great about the future. But instead, visions of religious dystopia wont leave my head.
Such a stupid controversy that underscores fundamental “ issues”. 1. Clear disrespect, objectifying of women, 2. Behaviors trying to be “popular” with the “kids” ( think Mark Driscoll) to get attention, credibilty, 3. Circling the wagons to “ protect” the name of Christ ( oops, I meant to say institutions …leaders )
Then why can’t they ever find anything in their closet or icebox? When I was six my mother would send me to find what my father couldn’t. I found it right away.
Like rappers.
This is why Kylie Jenner is not 25 yet and already starting to look like Joan Rivers.
Ha.
Men are more likely to be colorblind, too.
Women are human and every bit as ‘visual’ as men. We just hide it better and are socialized differently. I certainly noticed that the man sitting next to me last night was rather attractive.
Max,
He has his own 501c3 – Joy Dara Ministries – and His bio there says he earned a Juris Doctor Degree at SUSL Baton Rouge. The following link gives an idea of how rigorous the training is
http://www.sulc.edu/assets/sulc/Current-Students/Registrar-Request-Forms/JD-Full-Time.pdf
You list SUSL as his law school but link to a form from SULC. Are these one and the same?
Jerome,
The LC administration probably implied to their staff to start taking these actions. I experienced this with an Americans with Disability Act case.
They are trying to force out those who don’t meet the standards of the cool kids.
Dee, perhaps you can imbed this audio in the body of your post. I listen to the whole thing and am appalled.
A point of note which I would add to your points is that when discussing whether female students had voiced concerns, he quantified two female students a “African American.” Sigh. Totally unnecessary. But it shows that they see color and race. Time stamp around 8:40.
Also, I think Dr. Meek was well spoken. I commend him for remaining calm, even though it is clear that he was being threatened (with insubordination). I applaud him for asking if a reference to Haman’s gallows was a death threat.
Clearly, being called into this meeting with school witnesses, was not meant to be anything other than intimidating and threatening.
Lowlandseer,
In the President!s Report, Fall Update 2017, the following bio is given for Mr Dara -“Previously an adjunct for LC’s Criminal Justice Program, Dr. Joshua Joy Dara Sr. joins the faculty as a full-time assistant professor of Criminal Justice. He earned a JD from Southern University and a BA in Communications from California Baptist University. Dara holds a Master of Laws (post doctorate) from the University of Arkansas.”
The difference between a Ph.D and “Post Doctorate” is this – “The first and foremost difference between the two is that a PhD is “awarded” after defending a thesis (plus additional duties depending on the department). On the other hand, a PostDoc is a temporary working position that is assigned by some institution, whose completion does not require any defence.(Stack Exchange March 2018)
Lowlandseer,
For some reason my reply to this ended up in customs. But you seem to refer to two different institutions. Are they one and the same?
Samuel Conner,
So God is setting up Dr. Meek to become a prophet, in a way not the OT way, to address the sexual assault issue? 🙂
Southern appears to be a HBC in Baton Rouge. UALR (i’m guessing that’s where he was since it’s law related) is in Little Rock…
The internet says a post doc has a doctorate or ‘equivalent’, but I don’t see the doctorate location listed anywhere so I’m not sure what’s going on with that.
(Or maybe that is the JD. Master of laws threw me)
Anyways, my concern was personally not with his qualifications…
Thanks for clarifying this. I was quoting a news article which said “Dara has never earned a Ph.D. or M.D. or any other doctoral degree …”
My spiritually abusive former pastor, without naming schools, repeatedly mentioned he went to a “Bible College” in Alexandria, LA.
Pineville, LA is just outside of Alexandria.
Granted, said pastor was/is affiliated with Assemblies of God, so I can’t say for sure he went to the Baptist-affiliated Louisiana College, but it would explain some of his crude behavior and antics from the pulpit.
He also quoted J.D. Greear in a recent sermon. Take that how you will.
Lowlandseer,
Do the titles matter in any way in regards to how he addressed the students, and mainly the women, at the chapel service? The titles don’t have anything to do with the attitude he presented, or the attitudes presented in the meeting with Meek afterward. I wouldn’t want any women subjected to Dara’s speech, Christian or not.
Well, not a PhD or MD, but a Juris Doctor degree according to his bio (thanks Lowlandseer for pointing this out) … although in the U.S., lawyers typically use “Esquire” rather than “Dr.” with that degree, I believe. Therefore, I suppose, it is technically OK for Dr. Dara to call himself that.
Agreed … we don’t need to chase the “Dr.” any further on that. His words are of most concern (he is also a pastor).
Here Here. But to be fair I think lowlandseer was responding to questions about his qualifications.
I did not see what, if any, response he gave to the misogynistic comments.
You kiss the pugs with a mouth like that?
One of several reasons Christian single women wanting to date do not get dates (with Christian men) is the simple matter that there are often more of them than there are single men – in Christian schools, on dating sites, at churches.
But by all means, let’s guilt trip and shame the women and make them think the reason they’re not getting dates is that there is something wrong with them.
This is actually pretty common in most dating advice or dating books aimed at Christian singles aged 15 and on up.
Even some secular dating advice books do the same thing- they tell women,
‘the reason you’re not getting dates is (then they list a bunch of negative reasons).’
The woman is always assumed to be flawed in some way if she’s not been able to get married or get dates. Maybe there are other things at play, like no men where she lives, or she works long hours, doesn’t have time to date, etc.
It’s not always because the adult single is hideous to look at, is a loser, or an idiot.
Remnant,
I thought the reference to race was odd too. Good pick-up on catching that comment. Would it matter if they where Chinese?
Further, as I recall, the black girls said something about needing the type of message they heard.
What is that implying?
I feel sorry for the Kardashians/Jenners in that it seems that no matter how much money they spend, how much surgery they have, how much exercise & makeup & all of that, they are never actually happy with their looks. The thought of aging must be terrifying to them.
Hmm, my last reply to you on this has disappeared. I shall try again.
The short of it:
A lot of Christian (and some secular) dating advice assumes if a woman is still single it’s her own fault.
Never are other factors considered, like maybe there are more women than men where the woman lives,
maybe the woman works long hours and doesn’t have the time or energy to date, etc.
Women are always blamed for being single in these dating advice sermons / articles / books.
Nathan Priddis,
And I thought THAT was weird, too!
And now I wonder if that report is even accurate.
Brings back memories of Mark Driscoll’s comment about wives who “let themselves go.” This sort of talk has no room in a Christian setting … or anywhere else for that matter.
The mall I used to work in when I was a teen, my co-workers (ages 18 to late 20s) would definitely check out any men who walked by, wait for the man to get out of ear shot, then they would discuss among themselves what they found attractive about him.
And some of my lady co-workers were ten times more risque’ than most men I’ve heard.
Only difference is, when men do this to women, they usually don’t care if the woman is in ear shot of it or not.
The University of Arkansas does offer a degree called Master of Law (LL.M.). Would seem okay to earn a J.D. (a doctoral degree) and then earn a master’s degree in a specialized area, perhaps while teaching. I did not find a curriculum vitae for him online.
Christian television personality Pat Robertson has made the same, or similar, remarks on his television show over the years.
You can find examples on You Tube.
Here are some headlines from You Tube:
“Ugly Wives Ruining Marriage says Pat Robertson – via The Young Turks”
“Pat Robertson Blames ‘Awful Looking’ Women (Oh My God) –
The Jimmy Dore Show”
“Pat Robertson Cheating Comments: ‘Males Have a Tendency to Wander’- ABC News”
“Robertson: Divorce okay if wife has Alzheimer’s”
“Wife Beating Advice from Pat Robertson – The Young Turks”
“Pat Robertson Tells Divorcee She’s Just Not Marriage Material – The Young Turks”
“Pat Robertson On Cheating Husband: ‘He’s A Man!’ – via
Secular Talk”
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
AND YET, people, as of 2019, continue to write Robertson for relationship advice. I do not know why.
Wow. Hadn’t heard that one.
I’ve seen stats that men are more likely to leave their spouse in the middle of a major illness. So sad.
Dara made inappropriate comments to a group of people. So what? He should have been shown the door due to the setting and the audience. It wasn’t in a bar or a locker room. The setting was a Christian School chapel service for crying out loud! Doesn’t the phrase “mixed company” mean anything anymore?
A chapel service should be DIFFERENT than just any old talk.
And, what he actually said is extremely offensive, unbiblical, and downright sinful. Is this even defensible? I honestly don’t see how.
I would think that a chapel service is for pointing people to Christ, and not to point people between each other’s legs. But hey, what do I know….
Good grief, how anyone could defend this guy is beyond me.
My brother has a J.D. From Arkansas- Little Rock. He would never call himself ‘ doctor .’ And he taught a couple of semesters night classes at a small college. It was always ” Mister. “
Lowlandseer didn’t say anything about the misogynistic comments by Dara in his chapel address, or the threats made to Meek in his meeting with administration personnel from the Christian college. He simply corrected the comments regarding Dara’s titles.
It’s beyond me as well. Also beyond me is how the attendees of the meeting with Meek could treat him so dismissively and with threats.
Lea,
I’m not sure if there is a coralation, but people who become chronicley ill, roughly 50% of them will have people bail on them. That’s from my Social Security attorney.
Bridget,
If the administration of LC had fired him or had written Dr. Meeks up, they would have had to give an official reason, go on record. Normal procedure is to harass and intimidate the person until they leave.
You think I am defending the reprehensible comments?
My point is that the college president insisting that dissenting comments be ONLY directed to Dara one on one, per what he says is a Matt 18 problem, is completely irrelevant because Dara made his comments in a public setting, therefore public discourse to discuss the contents therein are completely warranted.
These college leaders want to shut down discussion. The comments were made to college students who are learning to dissect ideas and knowledge and they (the students) have a RESPONSIBILITY to dissect and examine what is presented against Scripture, whether their president likes it or not.
If Generation Z is just better in general about equality, they will either influence the SBC or the SBC will distinguish itself as a haven of bad behavior. I do know a couple of Baptist male college students, and they are kind and good. The one I know best attends a church that looks like a church. Imagine!
I checked Strong’s Concordance, and “lawn” is not in the KJV. “Fool” shows up 62 times.
So many comments I could make, besides a big “thank you” to Dr. Meeks, Wade Burleson, and Dee Parsons for their courage.
I’ll just add one:
I would be concerned about ANY college which had self-described “female ACADEMIC leaders” who are so DUMB that they missed the entire connection Dr. Meeks articulated with misogyny, abuse, and the SBC!
You want to know how many times I typed “idiots” and deleted?
Noevangelical,
I personally would have gotten up and walked out the whole congregation should have walked out.
As Wade said, “Southern Baptists have a pattern of covering up for their own.” this includes many SBC women. Indeed, if the women did not lend their credence, we would see a lot of reforms being made. Sad but true; women can sometimes be their own worst enemies.
These women come off as extremely defensive! I guess that’s what happens when you realize that your position is downright foolish but you are too stubborn to abandon it.
Why? Because if they were Biblical, mature men, they would know and do what all saints are called to do. So the basic problem is that they are NOT mature or perhaps not saints at all.
From Hebrews 5, CEB: “11We have a lot to say about this topic, and it’s difficult to explain, because you have been lazy and you haven’t been listening. 12Although you should have been teachers by now, you need someone to teach you an introduction to the basics about God’s message. You have come to the place where you need milk instead of solid food. 13Everyone who lives on milk is not used to the word of righteousness, because they are babies. 14But solid food is for the mature, whose senses are trained by practice to distinguish between good and evil.”
There have been several studies on this, men are more likely to leave. Mentioned that this was in an older cohort, so not sure if things will change for younger generations.
This might be where your 50% number came from, but it’s definitely gendered:
“A different study actually found that a woman is six times more likely to be separated or divorced soon after being diagnosed with cancer or multiple sclerosis than her male counterpart. For this study researchers looked at the lives of over five hundred patients who were identified as having brain tumors that also happened to be married at the time of diagnosis. From there the couples were followed and about fifty-three percent of the patient population ended up divorced.”
This is a different study from 2015 “We find that only measures of wife’s illness onset are associated with elevated risk of divorce, while measures of either spouse’s illness onset is associated with elevated risk of widowhood. ” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26315504
This is from 2009:when the man became ill, only 3 percent experienced the end of a marriage. But among women, about 21 percent ended up separated or divorced.
https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/
Ugh, just posted a bunch of stats from 2009, 2015, etc, but it got eaten and i’m not grabbing them again. I saw your 50%, but it is VERY gendered, found by multiple studies. Just google it. Men are significantly more likely to leave, and some studies found zero increase in women leaving post major diagnosis.
Two things.
1) I have a Juris Doctor and it is considered COMPLETELY and UTTERLY pretentious to call yourself Doctor anything. At most, your signature line might be Name LastName, Esq. That’s it. This is the first person I have ever met who converted a JD into a doctorate. Ewwww.
2) Southern University is ABA accredited, for what it’s worth. But only 44 percent of its students passed the July 2018 bar, compared to LSU with an 87 percent pass rate. I’d note there are a whole set of courses you have to take as prep for the bar, which this curriculum definitely covers. This curriculum is also heavy on Louisiana law, which is based on Napoleonic codes and rather different from common law. If I was planning on practicing in Louisiana, I’d want a good background in the quirks of law that isn’t based on common law and codified statutes. It also appears to have more classes on the actual legal process, which I think is a good thing, compared to my legal education. That said, the 44 percent pass rate would scare me away from spending a lot of money. But SULC is cheaper than my alma mater by about half. Still a lot of money, though, considering the horrid pass rate.
But no, he shouldn’t be calling himself Dr. If so, I should be calling myself Dr. Muslin, but again, that’s incredibly pretentious.
This is exactly what happens. There are some people who are just gluttons for punishment that they get an LL.M. in tax law (where I’ve mostly seen it). But then again, you have to love the ins and outs of taxes to practice tax law. (It also helps to have an accounting degree.)
I have a law degree, 43 credit hours in accounting, including an MBA and more than half of a Master of Science in Accountancy—and I hate tax law.
In the very narrow context of non-law school academia, it is not unheard of to be called “doctor.” I have never called myself that, but students call me that and I cringe a little inside but let them. But when colleagues with real doctorates call me that I bristle and occasionally correct them, because it feels like they’re being patronizing—they know darned well my education isn’t the academic equivalent of a legit doctorate. One of my former business law colleagues once told me he pursued a doctorate after getting his law degree because he “got sick of being called ‘doctor’ when (he) knew (he) wasn’t a real one.”
You’re right, it’s really low brow and pathetic to call yourself “doctor” when you have a JD.
That’s really like the Lord, isn’t it? I mean, He was always brushing the sins of His people, especially the big important, too-big-to-fail leaders, under the rug. I mean, we don’t have any dirt at all on David, Moses, Solomon, the disciples, the Apostle Paul, or any Jewish person from ancient history ever. We’ve obviously been protecting from any sin because we all know that Jesus would want us to present a bright,shiny clean exterior to the world (He who ripped the Pharisees for being rotting corpses on the inside while being shiny and whitewashed on the outside). The Lord (Who spoke of whispers in inner rooms being shouted from rooftops) is just so into protecting His people from censure, from hiding their sins.
Who is it who’s a liar? Who’s into being an angel of light on the outside? Who is it who’s into honesty? Who is it who’s into letting the chips fall where they may? You have to wonder just who some of these leaders are following. What spirit they have? Makes you wonder.
Always wondered about Driscoll’s sanity after that, because his wife is a fairly nice looking woman in my opinion, but Driscoll was and is a chubby, rounded, awkward, somewhat porcine-looking guy. He should be happy a woman was willing to mate with him at all, much less talking about other people letting themselves go. Talk about delusional!
Law Prof,
It is almost as bad as Ravi zacharias going by “Dr.” But, it is definitely worse that Mr Zacharias did/does it..
And he’s back in the pulpit again! Only in America!
Mine is a PhD but my first degree was BS. 🙂
Yes, that’s what I’ve heard.
My dad often brings this point up every so often.
Maybe I’m flashing back on some old Cheech Wizard raunch, but isn’t that definiton of a “mowed lawn” characteristic of PRE-PUBESCENT females?
Not JUICY enough.
When it comes to Big Name Christians, assume any Doctorate is bogus until proven genuine. (And other Big Name Christians are NOT proof.) It’s the only way to be safe.
Think they’ll end up going the Michael Jackson route?
It’s the “chubby, rounded, awkward, somewhat porcine-looking guy” (AKA “Fat Pig”) who always DEMANDS the Perfect 10 Supermodel type. Anything less is Beneath His Dignity. (And then goes MRA/InCel when the Perfect 10 Supermodels DON’T throw themselves at him.)
Why can’t these men be blamed for not being the kind of men women would want to marry?
What I learned from my misogynistic comp father was I would rather die and go to hell than ever be married to a comp man. They are a total turn off.
They talk about women like resentful virgin ninth grade boys.
Just when you think it can’t keep getting worse – at a “Christian college” – with such an opportunity to say things of substance and godliness – you get this garbage talk. Yes, I agree – where are the real men who should have turned off this guy’s microphone and apologized to the students for wasting their time. I tell you, if someone were to check some of these men’s computers, there would probably be a trail of pornography. They are obsessed. This stuff doesn’t come out of nowhere, and there seems to be a pattern (Haggard, Swaggart, Driscoll, and the list goes on…) Those who are loose with sexualized talk, or are condemning of others in these areas – are hiding something. Dee, you are a champion for staying with this all these years. Thank you, and God bless you!
Good rule of thumb, but he does seem to have been trained at actual colleges: https://www.lacollege.edu/faculty/dr-joshua-dara/
From his bio: “As an attorney, in 2015 he completed 20 years of legal services for children who had been removed from their parents’ care, or who were otherwise under the care and custody of the Department of Children and Family Services, for the Mental Health Advocacy Center in Pineville.” http://baptistmessage.com/zion-hill-pastor-joins-lc-faculty-as-dean-of-new-school-of-human-behavior/
It’s late and I might be seeing double, but it does look like he has a son Jr. who also practices law:
http://www.goldweems.com/joshua-j-dara-jr
It’s very much in line with the goals of theological indoctrination, though.
Law Prof,
i always thought doughy.
now his face is tight with perpetual startled look. hmmmm, what brought about the change, i wonder….
😐
I find all this confusing. First off I’m very happy my wife of two decades keeps the lawn mowed. Concrete patio might be more accurate. And I’ve counseled many young engaged couples that such hair removal is indeed their friend. When they got married they later thanked me vociferously. Especially the young men. I’m not commenting on the chapel lecture/sermon etc. because it doesn’t quite seem analogous. But since when is a practical (and PRACTICALLY HELPFUL and SEXUALLY BENEFICIAL) comment (like I often give in premarital counseling, again I’m not commenting on the appropriateness of this guys speech) PORNOGRAPHIC? I assume that the idea is that pornographic actresses often do this (they didn’t when I was a lost teenage boy sneaking into my dad’s porn collection but I guess times change) so that makes it pornographic? Really? Also I don’t understand the crackhouse thing either. For those who were abused, raped etc I don’t think anyone (at least a sane person would) in any way maintain that your sexual dignity is sullied. At the same time however I am very happy and proud that my wife and I were both virgins prior to our honeymoon and believe very strongly in promoting such chastity in our youth. And yes, any faithful Christian young man will have a negative view of a promiscuous young woman and will likely not see them as desirable to marry. That is far from misogyny in my book and if such a view has now become the definition I guess I’ll wear it with pride. Using “crackhouse” might not be the best analogy but thinking that a sexually promiscuous woman isn’t exactly the cleanest place to visit is something that is in no way out of bounds. Maybe we should just stick with jewelry in a pig’s snout? Or is the Bible language unacceptable too? I really just don’t understand some of you folks. All that being said I don’t think any kind of lecture should ever promote single men and women from ever being in a situation where they even know what “the lawn” looks like in the first place. If they haven’t signed the deed the lawn is off limits.
Off topic but we’ve added a very updated set of rules for commenting on the blog. You can see them via the menus or by clicking on the link just above the comment box.
Now back to your regular discussion.
Thank You
GBTC
GuyBehindtheCurtain,
sorry (but it was hard to resist)
i’ll stick to topic
Shirley Myers,
So agree. Absolutely disgusting Chapel Service.
Yes, Dee has been a champion in exposing harassment, gross sexual, abuse perpetuated upon children and women.
How men, like this jerk, get positions in a Church or Seminary, is so discouraging to me. Who allows these creeps to get away with proclaiming their filthy interpretations of male/female relationships?
elastigirl,
It was the only way to do it without creating a new post. Which I really didn’t want to do. 🙂
Yes. And how awful….
GuyBehindtheCurtain,
No more Cricket updates?!? 🙁
Is the cookie note in the black bar at the bottom of the screen something posted by you or some hacker? I’m always reluctant to click on these things. I guess it’s the old fuddy-duddy in me.
Yes! When did God or Jesus tell bible women way back in the day to get rid of their pubic hair?
This selfish unbiblical pervert just has a thing for the little girl look.
It is none of his pervert business.
“Resentful virgin ninth-grade boys” as in “larval InCels”?
When did closet Pedophilia become a Prerequisite (as well as Privilege) of Pastoral/Elder Rank?
Wow, Female Professors and Louisiana College.
Way to protect a pervert and prop up the good ol’ boys club (AKA he-man woman haters club).
Way to throw men of integrity and ALL women under the bus to shield those unworthy of your protection. And when I say a ALL women, this includes you, as in your value and worth. It amazes me how much you value this club that works tirelessly to devalue you.
I have questions. Did you come up with the idea to fall on your own sword for this cause? Or was there behind the scenes pressure to sell out integrity, the gospel, and half of the body of Christ?
Must be near the scripture Driscoll used when he told Scottish, Christian wives that Jesus commanded them to service their husbands in the oral persuasion.
Louisiana College female entrance applications for 2020 admissions are about to decline…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Ah9Djf5jc ;~)§
Because to a three-year-old, they are the Most Important Thing in the Universe and everybody has to bend to their convenience. And there are a LOT of arrested development cases walking around in allegedly-adult bodies.
Don’t forget Deep Throat Driscoll’s sexual obsession with BOTH ends of the alimentary canal.
AKA the type example of the unwanted peek into the ManaGAWD’s own paraphiliae/kinks —
TMI on Spanish Fly.
I’m seeing it too. It’s making me hungry.
Biblically Winsome and Submissive, just like Fred Phelps’ wife.
The “crackhouse” ™ reputation gossip will now vocally flourish with humor on every major campus of higher learning, resulting in an unfortunate increase of female suicide.
Friend,
Before I attack the nearest plate of cookies, I would like to thank the Powers That Be for the new rules, etc. Very helpful, clarifying, etc., etc.
Many of my extended family members have attended LC over the years, including my mom, grandfather, and aunt. They are so embarassed at what it has become. The problems did not start with this incident, they have been brewing for years. My aunt and uncle gave millions to LC to start the Caskey School of Divinity, named after my grandfather who was a bi-vocational pastor in rural Louisiana. The president of LC (Joe Aguillard) at the time, took that money for himself and spent thousands on suits, trips, and other things instead of using the money to invest in students. He cancelled events, he let the dorms and other buildings fall into complete disrepair. There were accreditation problems and more. Some of the professors were paid such a tiny salary that they actually had to rely on public assistance to feed their children. My aunt and uncle pulled all of their money and gave it elsewhere. It will take a miracle to bring LC back to what it once was – a Christian liberal arts college whose diploma meant something. Now, it is a waste of money to go there. Nothing that comes out of that school will shock or surprise me, but it is a tragedy that young men and women are still paying money to go to school there.
Did you try “lawneth” or “unto_lawn”?
“Cookies. I revoke thee!”
I believe cricket updates are part of the Secondary Prime Directive of Wartburg and, as such, are always on topic.
On the subject of which, England were stunned by a hitherto-underwhelming Sri Lankan side at Headingley this afternoon. Restricting the visitors to an on-the-face-of-it paltry 232-9 in their 50 overs, England were favourites to knock of the required runs at a canter. But the English batsmen were comprehensively strangled by a masterclass in tight bowling from the Sri Lankans. Completely unable to score, they lost wickets whenever they tried and were skittled for less than 200; one of the all-time lowest scores of the tournament.
For the hosts and pre-tournament favourites, this is becoming yet another disastrous humbling in a world cup. A resurgent Australian side will be extremely confident of destroying a struggling English one when the two meet early next week, and with three defeats from six matches England will be unlikely even to qualify for the semi-finals.
IHTIH
Nathan Priddis,
It seems that the women are accusing Dr. Meek of having a dirty mind.
I’ve seen this game played a wearying number of times in fundamentalist and evangelical circles. The old wink-wink, where the speaker is “perfectly innocent” but the listeners with more worldly experience are cracking up (or maybe shocked). And someone who properly interprets the innuendoes out loud in honest confusion (surely he could I have meant that) gets excoriated for having a dirty mind or evil intentions or a desire to gossip.
Proverbs 6:13 and 26:19 come to mind.
“surely he could not have meant that”
(Sorry, autocorrect did something odd)
Mae,
A few decades ago I was in a church where the pastor turned out to be a serial adulterer. When he was finally caught, it was discovered that several of the men on the deacon board also had “women issues.” They were all busy protecting each other. The pastor was allowed to leave and go on to another church. It blew up the church and gave our little town a lot to talk about. (When it all went down, I had moved on due to a career change).
LInn,
“A few decades ago I was in a church where the pastor turned out to be a serial adulterer. When he was finally caught, it was discovered that several of the men on the deacon board also had “women issues.””
+++++++++++++++++++
have no idea what “women issues” are. but i’m dying of curiosity!
… where he most likely continued his pattern of sin! This covering & passing of bad-boy pastors in American needs to stop!!
elastigirl,
Several of the deacons had their own infidelity issues. Somehow the pastor held it over their heads-if one is discovered, we all be discovered.
And, yes, (to answer Max), the pastor did continue his pattern of sin in his next couple of churches. I don’t know for sure what happened after that, but I did hear he has passed away.
I was back in the small town a few years after the church blew up, visiting some friends, and they kept saying how they missed the old pastor because he was such a good preacher. I mentioned he was a serial adulterer, but they kept going back to his “great” preaching. I just sat there with my mouth open.
Just a Country Preacher,
Don’t understand *you folks.* *Promiscuous women*
Goodness. you need to study how to communicate better. I’ll leave it at that.
Shirley Myers,
I now believe that there are things amiss at this college. I have a feeling that there is more to be revealed which will cause all those story women with initials to reconsider…
GuyBehindtheCurtain,
Does this also mean no more Fitba’?
Fits nicely with the message that abuse victims are just looking for a payday.
Nathan Priddis,
p.s. this is not merely about personal grooming. As far as I know, moms do not teach their daughters to “mow the lawn”… mine did not, at least.
With regard to the state of LC, a commenter named Rachel L Smith at the To Love, Honor, and Vacuum blog had this to say:
“I live in the town where Louisiana College is located. That quote from a dean doesn’t surprise me in the least. The whole campus is a cesspit of corruption and dangerous ideas. Every friend I have who’s been a student there, except one, has ended up destroying their life in one way or another, or having it destroyed by actions beyond their control but which circumstances trace directly back to events at LC.
“They’re constantly in the local news with the scandal of the month, constantly on the verge of losing their accreditation with the state, and can’t keep good professors for anything. Only newly minted professors will go work there, and they rarely last more than two years. They can’t take the hypocrisy anymore.
“They also make it very difficult for professors and staff to attend any church that’s not SBC. The football team is constantly in trouble with drinking and driving and the players who get tickets for it are never disciplined in any way. Staff are rude. The dorms were in disrepair 20 years ago. They went from having one of the best pre-med programs in the South to one of the worst. The only decent program left is nursing, but even it’s declining quickly these days.
“The whole place is crumbling inside and out. I think the world would be a little bit better if their accreditation did get yanked and they had to shut down.”
Jennie,
Sounds like there are longstanding problems. I wonder if the accreditation committee would be interested in this dustup.
NJ,
But remember, the students were horrified (surprised) by the lawn and crackhouse references, so they apparently are not creatures of a cesspit. I’m not convinced that the reviewer knows much about the college. The comments impress me as a combo of hyperbole, local rumor, and the kind of town/gown resentment that has been around forever.
“If I go down, I’m taking all of you with me.”
As my writing partner did when another local pastor was proud of inviting Mike Warnke to his church as a guest preacher — KNOWING THE GUY WAS A FRAUD! I think the justification was “Soul-Winning”.
“One Hand Washes the Other…”
My guess is that they already know about it, but doesn’t accreditation happen at set intervals? Jennie’s comment has some very specific information, and I find it more troubling than the “review” quoted downthread from To Love, Honor, and Vacuum.
dee,
Dee,
As my screen name reveals, I’m just a country boy. And phrases like the ones you find egregious are simply the way we talk around “these here parts” (ok I admit I’m being a tad sarcastic, we wouldn’t say “here”). “You folks” is perfectly acceptable in my neck of the woods. It’s a bit like your “good night” to be honest. I for one read your posts for 3 years before I figured that one out. We say “great day” or at least my pawpaw did. As for “promiscuous women” I’m not sure what I should put in it’s place so please educate me. Slut? Sorry I cannot use that, it just seems a bit too vulgar to me. Loose? Nope, same. Oh dear I’ve said “nope”. Dee in all seriousness I’m not a writer and don’t claim to be. I write like I speak and I speak like the rest of the people in my area: a blue collar redneck community full of folks who often didn’t finish high school. So if you want to dismiss my honest inquiry into the reasoning of some of the folks errr… people here who think it’s pornographic or worse a sign of pedophilia to prefer a certain form of feminine cosmetology I suppose there’s nothing I can do to prevent that. If promiscuous is not a word considered appropriate I suppose I’ll use the NIV language and refer to such as “lacking discretion” in the area of sexual ethics. But to me that sounds overly pedantic. Nevertheless I do believe my overall point still stands: it is quite normal for a faithful (sexually speaking) young Christian man to desire a comparably faithful young woman. I would hope young ladies would feel the same. In my own case I was not sexually active prior to marriage and I sought out and found a wife that was the same. My wife did the same with me. Surely no one is actually criticizing such or calling it misogynistic?!?!?
Two words: PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
Just like Russian Bureaucratic tradition.
(Check out the Party HQ scenes in HBO’s Chernobyl for some real blatant examples.)
It’s real. It is us. Avoiding possible legal fights down the road.
I think some of you are referring to this statement. Note the to try and deceive us part. There are situations we understand and are cool with.
Thanks pastor. Your colorful language has added much to the topic at hand. I’m sure your congregation loves your weakly pontifications. Whew!
Dr. Dara,
Get anywhere near my lawn or tell me how I should keep it, and I will sic my rabid Rottie on you. And feel free to take that as literally or metaphorically as you like.
A single woman
This is what is wrong with many corners of the American church … full of unspiritual people living church upside down. Driscoll, Hybels, MacDonald, etc. were great preachers, too. I suspect the old pastor received a standing ovation in that church when he retired … but probably not in Heaven.
“In ‘that day’ many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name … Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7 Phillips)
Just a Country Preacher: In my own case I was not sexually active prior to marriage and I sought out and found a wife that was the same.
James Dobson, years ago, made a statement which really concerned me. He said that people should seek out spouses who did not come from a broken home because it would be safer for the marriage. Interestingly, his own son got a divorce and then remarried.
Dobson was wrong to say that. There are many people who come from broken homes who make fine spouses. For many Christians such a *policy* would disqualify 50% of single people.
Now, let’s go down your road. You sought out only other women who had not *had sex* before marriage. Is this Biblical? What about a woman who had sex and then became a Christian? What about a widow who lost her husband? What about a young woman who was coerced into sexual relations by a pastor in her youth group? What about a woman who knew she had made a mistake and decided to do it right from then on?
Were all of these women out in your paradigm?
You’ll need to wash your mouth a bit should you ever consider being a city preacher. The words of a pastor should rise above those spoken in these here parts. Sexual innuendos have no place in the pulpit. That’s the carnal man talking.
Max,
So let me get this straight. I used the very same language that is in the title of the post because that is the language in question and now I’m being vulgar or inappropriate? I see. So basically if someone is a pastor that automatically means everything they say should be taken in the worst light possible? I see. And though you’ve never met me and probably only read this one comment from me you feel you have enough information to accuse me of pontificating each Sunday and that it’s doubtful my church enjoys it (your statement seemed to me sarcastic so I believe this is a fair assessment). The only point I tried to make is that candid advice about sexual matters is perfectly ok within the right context. While I personally have never counseled anyone with words like “now the lawn” and am not condoning the lecturer who did use such language I am concerned that with accusations of pedophilia, pornography etc certain individuals (what I earlier called “some of you folks” but was for some reason rebuked) are taking an unreasonable position. My wife prefers to groom this way and has done so since she hit puberty. I prefer it for other practical reasons that I do not feel appropriate to discuss publicly. My premarital counseling recipients prefer it because they realize that such grooming by both parties enhances certain aspects of their love life after they get married. As for my congregation and their like or dislike I will but say we have never had a controversy and have grown numerically almost every week for years. So while I may or may not be preaching what you’d find acceptable it is at least popular. I’ll let Scripture judge if it’s faithful.
Really? Then why did you post this?
“First off I’m very happy my wife of two decades keeps the lawn mowed. Concrete patio might be more accurate. And I’ve counseled many young engaged couples that such hair removal is indeed their friend.”
I’m calling SEA LION.
No comment.
Friend,
sea lion… sealioning
++++++++++++++
what in the world… just when i thought i was current and up-to-date.
had to look that one up — it required a very long paragraph to explain it. quite complicated.
NOW i’m current and up-to-date.
It’s in the new rules. But I think HUG introduced the term here a month or two ago, and now I understand the Internet soooooooo much better. 😉 The origin is in this excellent Wondermark drawing: https://wondermark.com/1k62/
Mod: Corrected email address. GBTC
Max,
Hmmm. So I suppose Paul was wrong to mention emasculation as an innuendo (clearly the case) or Elijah making fun of Baal for going to the bathroom or Isaiah calling our righteousness a menstrual cloth or Ezekiel…nah I’m not even comfortable with Ezekiel at times. I could go on. Biblical language is my standard. And it’s not as clean as you’re making it out to be.
elastigirl,
I replied but put a typo in my email address, waah. Thanks to the People In Charge for watching over us all.
Dee,
I responded to your question in detail but for some reason it didn’t post. Not sure why.
I dont really recall ever having someone mention winking, as mentioned in Proverbs 6:13.
I actually abhor it, and consider it to be a sign of Belial. I never forget the moment it happened.
Vs.13 uses the root for Belial to discribe the winker.
I view it as a subconscious and involuntary eye tick. Something about speaking to me set the person off, but they are trying to conceal something.
Another thing is a speaker changing topics rapidly in mid-paragraph, and not finishing sentences. It’s a highly advanced form of lying. But congregations dont seem to be able to follow fast enough to pick up on it. I think listener’s brains will auto fill portions of the sermon. The lie is completed by the listener themselves.
Just a Country Preacher,
Was not innuendo.
The Circumcism Group was obsessed with genitals. (Not joking)
This is what Paul was referring to when he mentioned spying on liberty. He means there where voyers trying to out any uncircumcised men. Perhaps it was taking place in public toilets. He does not say.
Super Apostles-Judiazers-Teachers of the Law-Pharissee-The Cuncision, are all names for the same people.
By the time of Acts 15:5, the Pharisees had established a sub-group in the Judean Church.
By Acts 21:20 the Judean Church was zealous for the Law. They are abandoning Christ.
This same abandonment is behind the Book of Hebrews.
Judeo-Christian is the modern term. And even some of the original genital obsession is still discernable.
dee,
I’ll try this again but I’m going to make it short. I do believe it is perfectly Biblical for a young man to set standards for what type of woman he wishes to marry as long as he’s willing to live up to those standards himself.
For me it was a personal issue that I realized was necessary for my own comfort and ability to be thoroughly attracted to my wife. She had the exact same standard. She would not have married me had I been sexually active prior to marriage.
As for rape, former marriage etc those things are not at issue. For me it was voluntary transgressions of God’s standards in Scripture that would have been a deal breaker. However I admit that as a very young man even a widow would have been somewhat problematic due to my own bashfulness and naïveté. Unfortunately many young men who seek chastity have the wrong headed idea that they will be disappointing to a woman due to lack of experience if their wife had been previously married. I am old enough now to laugh at my younger ideas concerning this. But no, I admit I would not have considered a formerly married woman. Sometimes we need to grow up to realize how foolish our ideas are. I was no different.
I am not condemning toward men or women who previously involved themselves in pre-marital sex ie fornication. I believe such is indeed sin and should be called such. But as the worst of sinners myself I believe we should celebrate redemption not focus on the fact that “such were some of you” as Paul so aptly says. My best female friend (other than my wife) is a wonderful person who happens to be a lesbian. I love her immensely and though I make it clear that her lifestyle is sin I spend our time together presenting Christ not harping on her sexuality. I’m willing to bet she’d get quite angry with some of the accusations against me by certain comments here.
In short I would NEVER (as Dobson did in your example) maintain everyone (or anyone really) must follow my example. For some people it would not make any difference. Christ has a bride that has quite a sullied reputation. And men can have the same. But for me it would have been abusive to cause a woman to be my wife who I had issues with in this matter. That’s a personal thing. And every person has to make that decision on their own with Scripture and reason as their guide. As someone who has counseled numerous people on this very matter I stand by my comments. The fruit of such counsel is plain to see in the many thankful (and successful) young people who’ve followed it. To maintain that a man or woman cannot set such standards for themselves is, in my opinion, abusive and a violation other own conscience.
Nathan Priddis,
I think you misunderstood me. My point was he said something many would consider vulgar. And the other examples do as well. And they are somewhat veiled references at times, which is innuendo of a sort. I agree with your assessment of the Judaizers but I don’t think it really think it’s relevant to what I said. My point is my language is not inappropriate, considering that a) I merely quoted the original post (in hindsight I should have used quotation marks to emphasize) and b) the Bible is filled with such references (ie language that is not considered appropriate for good company in 21st century America). The Hebrew for male child or heir could be added among other things. Even KJV English isn’t acceptable today for many (which isn’t an issue with me, I prefer the NIV).
2nd
Excellent application of Scripture to the unseemly incident at the college.
Let me go just a bit farther down that road. Although premarital sex is a sin, I am not sure it’s the very worst sin or the least desirable quality in a prospective spouse (narcissism, theft, assault, lying, arson…). Many people sow their wild oats and settle into faithful marriage. They repent in action, perhaps without the lifelong anguish that purity culture promises.
In the 1800s, the temperance movement was fighting against a serious problem, but a lot of temperance messages were nothing more than angry rebuke. The gentle pushback went something like this: “It’s easy for me to condemn something I am not tempted to do.”
Everyone is different, some people are stronger than others, and some are just not tempted. We can have a lofty standard alongside mercy.
Had no idea he ever said such a thing. Amazing! Are you sure? It’s not like you’ve given me a lot of reason to doubt you nor that Dobson has given me a lot of reason to trust his judgment, but still, it seems so surreal. So unlike what anyone who lo0ves Christ would say.
People should go into marriage and look for a spouse based on prayer. They should find the one whom they believe Jesus is leading them to, whomever that may be, regardless of their past circumstances, the one who shows evidence of love, joy, peace, patience, etc. The Bible is very clear about the children not being blamed for the sins of the parents, it’s right there, Ezekiel 18:20. But Dobson is telling people to rule out potential spouses because their families were broken?
My wife was a sweet teenage girl who loved Jesus very much when I met her. She was poor because her mom and dad had gotten a divorce and her mom had never been able to land a good job afterwards. Her mom, who had quite the reputation around town as the twice (and one day thrice) to be divorced homewrecker. And trust me, I heard about it when I started dating future wife, she was judged by the prim Phrasisees who looked down on her for things she had never done herself, and by the lascivious types, who would tell me “So you’re dating C’s daughter, Ooh la la!” It was like that Harper Valley PTA song. Everyone in her family: mom, dad, grandparents on one side, aunts, uncles had all been divorced, except for one aunt, who’d never married.
That young teenage girl, the child of divorce and scandal, was sitting at home every night fervently praying for her future husband with absolute passion. She said she did it every evening, sometimes literally for hours. I was that husband who was going to be so blessed by that wife who Dobson would’ve told me to rule out.
We’ve been married for 30 years now. And unlike a lot of evangelical celebrities, we’ve never cheated on each other, never considered divorce, we’ve grown closer to Jesus together, have gone through three abusive, horrible churches together and stuck together like glue.
The problem with our way of doling things for Dobson was I guess we were just deciding to follow the Lord no matter what and not following Mr. Dobson’s made-up Pharisaical rules.
Dee,
I’ve responded twice to all of this and have, I believe, ably clarified and explained myself. I’ve answered your questions in a decent amount of detail. Yet my posts have been disallowed for some reason. During this time I’ve responded to others and these posts have been allowed. I do not understand the discrepancy. It’s your blog and you can moderate as you see fit. But I do wonder why only my responses to YOU are prevented.
IMO, things started going South in many corners of the church when Christian psychology found its way to the pulpit.
Law Prof,
Please tell you wife for me that I think she chose well in marrying you.
Just a Country Preacher,
Please understand that I am in the midst of writing a difficult post. Your posts have NOT been disallowed. They wee held in moderation due to our filters. I just happened to not getting around to approving them I receive no income from doing so due to a personal choice I made a decade ago. I think its hard for some folks to understand that I am running this blog by myself and just have so much time to write posts, respond to comments, emails and phone calls and approve comments.
If you check you will see that I had approved your comment a few minutes ago.
Alabama gov. signs law allowing Briarwood Presbyterian Church to have own police force
https://www.christianpost.com/news/alabama-gov-signs-law-allowing-briarwood-presbyterian-church-have-own-police-force.html
How nice for you to attempt to attack me when you are terribly wrong in your assumption. If you spent a bit longer getting to know this blog you will discover that I have one of the most liberal comment policies around. I tire of people who show up on the blog and don’t take the time to understand the adorable and usually congenial blog queen.
I am a virgin and am over the age of 45, and I am a woman.
My ideal was to wait until marriage to have sex, but I never found a Mr. Right.
My preference is, should I marry, to marry another virgin, but in this day and age at my age, that is very unlikely.
Should I look down my nose at any man I may start to seriously date and possibly marry who committed fornication at some point in his 40+ years on earth,
or is being disdainful of fornicators only reserved for hetero men against unmarried hetero women (as you are promoting),
especially the women they may want to date or marry?
Are you okay with gendered double standards in this area or in any others, is what I am curious about.
Just a Country Preacher,
I disagree with you. Glad you found the *perfect* wife who met you precise standards.
Is that Dara guy going to do a future speech at the chapel where he tells the men present to do man-scaping?
“if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given to her for a covering.” LOCATION, LOCATION
IMHO, it’s fine to discuss and encourage sexual abstinence,
but,
it should be directed at women AND men, the comments should not just be about women – in this case, Dara was commenting only on women –
and discussing, shall we say, a form of personal hygiene of the genital area (that is predicated on personal preference), is tacky, gross, and irrelevant in a discussion on sexual abstinence.
The timing and venue for this guy’s talk was also off – inappropriate.
Most of the time, when Christians give lectures/ sermons on sexuality, they ALWAYS victim blame and shame WOMEN.
As you started out doing.
If you’re going to preach abstinence to a Christian group, you need to mention BOTH biological sexes, not just the women, as Christians often do.
As though, (like in secular culture),
we all just expect or demand sexual self control out of women, but not out of men, because dog gone it, “boys will be boys” and they just HAVE TO “sew their wild oats,” which is fine, but if a woman does that, she is slutty.
drstevej,
Hilarious!
I’d like to know why what single men want, need or prefer is always the focus with Christians like this?
What about what single women such as myself want, need, or prefer in a man we may date or marry? Are we single ladies not supposed to have any standards or wish lists? Only the single men get them?
point 1.
That is the crux of the matter.
Dara using crass analogies in a chapel service is out of place, wrong timing, gross, unnecessary, etc. That’s all you had to address.
point 2.
Way TMI.
Too much information.
I didn’t need to know what you or your wife prefer regarding this issue,
and,
while I would never, ever bother seeing a preacher for pre-marital counseling should I marry,
if I did,
I would never, ever bring this subject up with a preacher.
If the preacher brought it up, I’d knock his teeth in and chew him out over it and immediately leave the preacher’s office.
I find it very, very hard to believe that any engaged couple would ever broach this subject with anyone ever, especially in a premarital counseling session with a pastor.
You must be making this up.
That something may be mentioned in the Bible does not necessarily make it acceptable to use in certain places or times.
But Dara, the guy who gave the speech at this chapel service, only mentioned women.
If Christians are going to moralize over sexual sin and/or personal hygiene of the genitals, they need to be consistent and bring up men who sin etc, not just focus on women, as they always do.
How Dara handled these topics was not only sexist (in that he picked on women only), but he was rather crude about it. That the Bible may mention crude topics does not make it okay for John Doe to be crude at a public gathering.
I’m not a prude, but I recognize there is a proper place and time for crude humor.
When I go into job interviews, for instance, I do not use cuss language or tell sleazy jokes. I want to maintain a professional demeanor so I will be considered for the job.
That was me also. Been praying for a husband since I was a kid, and God never sent me a Mr. Right.
I clicked the ‘accept cookies’ button,
but every time I go to make a new comment,
the “name,” “e-mail” and “web site” fields are all still empty, and I have to type them in / select them each time.
This has been the case the last few months since I’ve posted here,
but for a long time before that, it was not – they’d always be filled out with my info already. That was a real time saver.
(I do have auto- fill-in, so when I hit the “d” on the name field, the browser automatically fills in “Daisy,” at least.)
Daisy,
Ditto what you just explained, Daisy.
Not even considering the offensiveness of what he said, though it was offensive. LC should have taken action against him, for encouraging the young men and women to violate the LC Code of Student conduct. Since the only way that any of the young men would know if the young women were “mowing their lawns” would be if they were engaging in sexual activities outside of marriage which is a violation of the student Code of Conduct. Therefore the administration is protecting a man, that spoke unbiblically in chapel, he expressly incited students to violate the rules that college expects students to abide by.
drstevej,
Daisy,
Bridget,
It won’t be long now.
When SKYNET takes over, we’re all screwed.
Daisy,
No I’m not ok with double standards. I think most women like yourself would naturally feel the same. I only mentioned men because the original lecturer in question seemed to be directing HIS comments toward women and thus I do not know if what his comments to men would be. As I’ve stated a number of times my wife shared my standards and held me to the same. From my Christian background in the tradition I am a part thus is normal. It seems to me that some on here are actually attacking this mentality as though it is sinful. I find that offensive. Most of the young Christian people I know feel this way as well. It is the norm in our tradition where most children grow up in Christian homes and are taught absolute chastity before marriage. I for one would never want my daughter marrying a man who was a skirt chaser, whoremonger etc. I don’t know what word is acceptable on this blog because even “promiscuous” was offensive earlier so if these terms offend I ask forgiveness because I’m at a loss to pick terminology that everyone finds acceptable.
Daisy,
I don’t disagree with anything you just wrote. I concur. So what is the issue? I made it clear I was not in any way passing judgment let alone condoning the lecturer in question. Since I am not privy to what he might have said or not said to men I cannot speak to that. Nevertheless I have been in speaking environments where I was asked to speak to women alone or men alone. And I have been in other circumstances where it was necessary to speak to both but on separate occasions in a series. So I don’t pass judgment on one speech etc. Maybe if I had a transcript or more knowledge about how the man speaks to men as well I would feel more comfortable in being more forthright in either condoning or condemning.
Daisy,
I’m sorry you find it impossible to believe. However I spend three sessions in counseling concerning sexuality. If this is wrong in your book I guess we can agree to disagree. I was taught this way by my own pastor and in seminary. I have always tried to cover everything and have NEVER HAD A COMPLAINT. Never. I have multiple couples who a year later (at their one year counseling “check up”) tell me how practical my teaching is. I allow for any question to be asked by either party (for the record if the young lady is the party a mature Christian deaconess is present) no matter how blunt or even uncomfortable it might be. Because we in churches tend to not bring up sex many couples have questions that can be quite graphic. I have always tried to be open to such and never treat any topic as taboo. At the same time I also don’t promote graphic content. It is a tightrope. But when asked about “uncomfortable” topics I try to be Biblical, helpful, practical and always have the goal of preventing conflict and promoting mutual understanding. Whatever you think of this one thing is certain: I’ve got two decades of marriage and ministry success to back it up. And the parents of these couples will back me up as well. I will simply dismiss your accusations of lying with forgiveness. Whether you want it or not.
Dee,
That is your prerogative. My sincere apologies for wondering why my longer posts were disallowed (I thought). I did not realize shorter ones go through faster. And I forgive you for insulting my wife with your sarcasm. She extends the same. I’ll take my leave of this cesspool now. It is quite clear I don’t belong.
You’re really kind, Dee. Honestly think I got the better end of the deal. Funny thing was, this daughter of the notorious small town 2x divorcee who wore the provocative clothing and such was the one setting me straight and was telling me I had to take my faith seriously and be sold out for Jesus when I first became a Christian and was generally acting like a teenage idiot (which is appropriate because I was a teenage idiot).
By the way, let me tell you something about my wife’s character. There was a gay girl in high school. About a year before we started dating, this gay girl, who didn’t have a date, knew my wife didn’t also and asked her if she wanted to go to prom with her. My wife said “Sure.” And they went to high school prom, my born-again Christian girlfriend-to-be and this lesbian girl. They had a fun time, they danced, hung out, talked. Enjoyed themselves. Of course nothing went on, the gay girl knew my wife wasn’t homosexual, and she respected that. But no way was my wife going to say “No” to someone she was acquainted with and whom she thought was a decent person. Now you need to know, neither my wife nor I believe the practice of homosexual sex is morally right. We didn’t then, we don’t now. But my wife also knew that to turn this down cold wouldn’t be the way that she would want to be treated—and my wife cared more about this young friend than she did about the talk and hissing whispers behind her back that would come in that small town. Perfectly willing to sacrifice her reputation (which I guess was in the dumps anyway) on the altar of being kind to this girl. I got a keeper. I love her to death, Jesus only made one like her.
What in the world? Where did she insult your wife? I looked back through and couldn’t find anything. But I didn’t look through every single post. I can’t imagine Dee doing that. And to call this place a “cesspool.” Good gosh, man! Maybe you don’t belong, maybe you just need to take a few deep breaths, look in the mirror, and ask yourself what the heck is going on in that head.
Oh, I get it, the “perfect” wife thing. Dang man, that’s not so nasty, not under the circumstances. I’ll tell you the truth, if you ever come back and look, I really doubt you when you say you forgive her. Really, really doubt it, looks like sarcasm on your part. And that’s not something you want to play around with, baby. Just sayin. It’s like the Deep South “God bless your little heart.” Dangerous stuff, Third Commandment stuff. Careful there.
Wow. Skimming your comments, I thought perhaps you were a reasonable person who just disagreed with a lot of things and possibly had some positive insight that might help the discussion.
Unfortunately, the above comment reveals more about your character than all your sickeningly sweet words can mask over.
Friend,
Third
Just a Country Preacher,
Can I call you a Waaambulance?
Where in the bible did God say to do this?
Why is it any of your pervert business?
Are you not attracted to adult women?
Why do so many Christian men feel they have the right to add to the bible?
Your fetishes are pedo. I would know, I was subject to a pedo for the first ten years of my life.
Do you have the courage to answer these questions?
Law Prof,
your wife is pretty great.
Just a Country Preacher,
Hey man..no offense.
There’s a lot of people that drop by the blog. Annnddd..then they’re gone.
Just FFR on your next blog, think of this as an exit interview:
1. Dispite your moniker, you hit the thread more like Stormin Norman.
2. If your actually a preacher…never include your wife in a sermon example. Ever. In this lifetime.
3. Are sure you preach in the countryside?
4. Just in case your a young seminary kid. Dont do premarital counseling.
5. Ask yourself why you followed the blog in the first place. (It’s not important we know. Just you)
6. Its hard to assess someone’s demeanor in text and not in person..this is a friendly comment.
7. NOT pursuing ministry is one of my best life choices. I think it would be the same with you. Even if you comments where intended as humour.
All the best.
Me.
I did. I was repeatedly raped as a child and felt like god and his stupid misogynistic rube men hated and condemned me. It is hurtful and offensive to raped little girls. Not that your ilk gives a tiny d*mn about raped little girls.
Your post makes me think you are the gross, stupid, misogynistic, know-nothing man that said this sick slop.
If you were not such an ignorant misogynistic rube you would know to be ashamed of your post.
Mara,
He isn’t getting his feeble ego flattered. He isn’t man enough and tough enough for the real world. He is going to go crawl back under his rock.
Guest,
I had planned on moving on but wow!
As for God’s commands I do not claim that he does. It is merely advice for BOTH. And it has been well received. To maintain I’m a pedophile is irresponsible but I realize that it is probably due to your own suffering in abuse. I suppose armpits and legs is the same? As noted earlier I did not require this but my wife has practiced this since puberty. I guess I’m your reasoning she is promoting pedophilia? Ridiculous. Some of us just have an aversion to body hair of any kind. My wife hates facial hair so even though I prefer to have a beard I honor her desires. I suppose in your view she merely wants a little boy look? Wow. Yes this is a cesspool. As for you calling me a pervert, again wow. Really what can be said? I don’t claim it’s my business by the way. But when I’m asked about such things I give the advice (not commands) I think is helpful. And young couples are thankful because it makes certain activities easier and more enjoyable. So instead of promoting perversion or pedophilia I will maintain that I’m promoting a more enjoyable relationship and continue to let those I counsel to be my judge in this matter. God as my witness I’ve never had a single, solitary thought toward such horrifying perversion as you’ve accused. I’m very saddened that your own horrible experience would lead you to such an idea. And I am sorry you experienced it. Now, I am now taking my leave. Not, as some accuse, because I lack forgiveness but I do lack desire to continue such a fruitless enterprise that frankly makes me feel like taking a long hot bath. This has been truly disgusting. I cannot believe Christians actually act this way and that says a lot considering I’ve seen a lot of poor behavior over the last two decades in pastoral ministry. If someone wants to continue posting challenges so be it. I’m not taking the bait anymore.
I was thinking the same thing.
Have you noticed the immaculate record he claims to have on everything?
People get upset with the best preachers and this gay could only appeal to porn addict selfish boys and pervert girls that have a fetish with being degraded.
No. Shorter ones do not go through faster. It because some people make all kinds of assumptions about how things word that we had to write an expanded set of rules. I wish we could make it shorter but almost everything mentioned in them comes up at least once a year and some once a day. Since you are bumping into them in multiple ways I suggest you read them. The link is at the top of the box where you type a comment. Click it.
Joshua Dara tells women how to keep their pubic hair and calls none virgin women crackhouses and now what I have said makes you need a bath?
You and Joshua Dara can dish it out but can’t take it. You like promoting misogyny but do not like hearing what actual real rape victims really think about your ignorant stupidity.
I have NEVER known a preacher who did not promote his selfish fetishes. That is why I do not and will never trust or respect preachers again.
Many men prefer the adult grown woman look and do not have dysfunction and confusion in the bedroom with these women.
It is sad for these women you know that they have sex with such sexually inept pedo-ish boys. But, they are getting their ideas from you.
Just a Country Preacher,
Apologize to Guest, NOW!
Brian,
Think you, Brian;)
He does not have to apologize to me. I grew up with men like him. He is not new or special. Just embarrassing.
My father talked and acted like Mark Driscoll and Doug Wilson. When it comes to perversion and misogyny I have heard it all. My father was bat poop crazy and my mother was his mindless little girl slave. So creepy and perverted.
The admonishment of singled out female students in a university chapel sermon to watch/augment their personal hygienic appeal, whilst limiting the frequentcy of sexual repetitive encumbrance, — inapplicable inappropriate utilized urban language not withstanding, was strictly out of place. The facility and student handbooks is the place to handle appropriate language, appropriate hygiene, the university moral code that of sexual repetitive encumbrance admonition for all students.
Sòpwith,
Yes. What ever happened to using discretion ?
The old lady that I am, if that man had said that in front of me, I’d have gotten up and left that so called Chapel Service.
I have 2 X-chromosomes and lived in the academic world for over 2 decades and survived (although not without significant scarring) although I would like to suggest that giving one’s “creds” shouldn’t be necessary. On the flip side, having people seem to be expert on matters of which they have absolutely not knowledge is on of the problems in this day and age so…….those are my credentials.
“Dr.” Dara is wrong, just wrong. To the people around him who are supporting him and not calling him out for his crass, misogynistic talk, you are wrong. As Christians, we are to follow Jesus and try to live our lives as he would (I unfortunately fail that on a routine basis, but…..). ‘Love one another as I have loved you.’ My mantra. I fail frequently, but I keep going back to that especially I have negative emotions towards people.
Women can be just as much a part of the problem as men. Dr. Clark and the other female leaders are proof to principal and also need to be called out on their failure. They are perpetuating a potentially abusive, dismissive culture. Just because Dr. Clark has 2 X chromosomes she is no more immune from error. If one wastes a portion of their precious life listening to the recording of the meeting at LC, Dr. Clark very much toes the line w.r.t. the inappropriate support of “Dr.” Dara.
CNN had an article on “token” women: https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/30/success/women-boards-representation/index.html. When one woman is on the board, she is a token and does nothing to change the patriarchal structure. Two women are still tokens (and to be honest, can probably do nothing to sway the vote). It takes 3 or more……or potentially 20% of a group to start changing the culture. In many aspects of society, we are far from that.
In my life’s experience, my deepest scars have been inflicted by women, but when I reflect, those women were tokens. They were the one woman at the top, and to stay there, they became the executioners for the men. I now understand but my wounds from the encounters and “female support” are still just as deep.
Shame on you “Dr.” Dara. Dr. Clark, you are the problem, too.
Wonderful story, in the spirit of Jesus’ own words in Luke 7:33-35.
Daisy, thank you for sharing your insights. There is a lot of wisdom and eloquence in the challenges to our unpleasant newcomer.
Good. Imagine my hairy ankles.
I appreciate knowing your story. You are helping others understand problems that have been hidden away in churches for far too long.
There’s that phrase again. You are pretty insistent on this being the case.
But the fact of the matter is that blogs like this aren’t the cesspool. It is the environment that has developed and maintained in Christendom by men like Driscoll and Dara that is the cesspool. If it stinks here, it’s only because people are trying to address the actual cesspool to expose it and clean it up. Sorry if some of the stench attached to our clothing offends you. You really ought to be offended at the real cesspool, not those trying to clean it up.
Or, perhaps Guest is correct in in her assessment, in whole or in part? Perhaps you are part of the cesspool, in whole or in part. And perhaps you are offended that people are drawing attention to the fact that porn and perversion has crept into God’s House defiling thousands and destroying tens of thousands through sexual abuse.
I. am. so. sorry.
“As You Walk Away?”
hmmm…
Mae,
https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/fields-of-flowers-purcellville-2?select=ajFCLNYZre4TLwrHMXNdEg
hmmm…
Discernible discretion went out the rear social window; —valor never even entered the building… A young ‘woman’s’ prized ’hymn’ is now sacrificed in the proverbial backseat at twelve. Designer STD’s now ‘officially’ amount to four dozen and counting. Middle and high schools, now ‘grocer’ markets. Apparently what’s left is often ‘scrapped’ up in college. Administrators know this. Q. What does “effectual fervent prayer” really mean these days? ;~(§
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k2alsH3cmNI
////
You realize that everything you say about body hair is just your own opinion. To claim it makes things more enjoyable or easy is silly. You certainly appear to put great stock in your own preferences, enough to share them where it’s none of your business.
And by the way, you came here to comment. No one baited you. To try to place blame on others for your decision to comment is about as immature of a comment I’ve ever seen.
You might also consider that this isn’t strictly a Christian blog. Dee welcomes anyone’s comments and perspectives. It might be good for you to get out of your own bubble of a world and not be offended by real life so much. Jesus certainly didn’t take offense when he encountered the pain of peoples’ lives.
I noticed this in my former NeoCal church. The pastor repeatedly said that any young man in the church who wanted to date a girl should “ask his leaders” to make sure that this was ok (or something). I’m sure everyone here can spot the problem: the church leaders were effectively black listing some young women if they would tell young men they shouldn’t date them. My pastor told a story once about a man at the church that planted my former church who went against his “leaders” advice and married a young woman they didn’t approve of. She ended up having issues with mental illness, and my pastor was so upset that taking care of her “made this man less effective in ministry.” He was too shortsighted to see that there could be no possible higher calling than helping a spouse dealing with mental illness keep moving forward in life.
So yeah, that Dobson quote is terrible, but not shocking, and is part of a larger body of advice going out to young men in the church.
Guest has referred to her past many times on comment threads over the years, both on this blog and others. Guest grew up on the receiving end of one of the worst cases of continuing child abuse I have ever heard of. (And among first-generation furry fans, you hear a lot of abusive pasts.) I am surprised she(?) is still alive and able to write in complete sentences after growing up in such a House of Hell. And it was all done to her(?) in the Name of GAWD.
Yet another unwanted glimpse into a ManaGAWD’s personal sexual paraphiliae/fetishes/kinks.
Mara,
Survivors can be the ”canary in the coal mine” when it comes to abusers. Guest was spot on.
JACP kept mentioning his wife’s vaginal area in every comment, thus traumatizing any survivors on the blog. He was enjoying it.
Unless he did last minute research, he has knowledge of the Bible. So if he is a pastor, God help them.
I feel sad that the wife being talked about in these comments has felt she had to mow the lawn since puberty. That is really disturbing to me, and my psychologist mind is going . . . nuts. It also disturbs me that her husband feels free to tell us that. I am a woman, but I am just as visual as any man, maybe more so. Could I be abnormal because I had early visual exposure like men usually have been? I am old enough that I remember when all magazines were still being sold together and not behind the cash register. As a child, long before I had hair, I would sneak peeks at the magazines with my brothers behind the shopping carts that sort of blocked the non-family ones. In the 70s all the photos were hairy! But I don’t care what kind of hair Christian couples want to keep or get rid of in these here times, as long as they are not fantasying about children or forcing a younger look on each other. And then if beauty is the goal and not pre-pubescence, what about that aging, and the stretch marks of pregnancy that some women like to cover with their “glory.” I’m telling you, this obsession with hairless and youngness, is disturbing at the least. But when people like Driscoll preach that we must keep up with the times in order to keep our spouses interested and not cheating with the fake and plastic people much less the real younger people, justifying it because today’s spouses grew up watching evil and therefore can only be aroused by evil and somehow turn that into godly behavior because now it marriage sanctifies it, well that’s just . . . evil. And they know it. How do I know they know it? Because they refuse to keep up with the times on other things that are not so arousing to them, such as the thought that women are actually people too, on the same authority grounds with men. And they teach that to keep women oppressed under male thumage is somehow . . . godly. They call evil good and good evil.
Not only that, but the implications of the practice make me feel sick. As if mature women will become more attractive by following a practice that makes them more closely resemble prepubescent girls…?
The speaker thus sounds like a pedophile to me.
Probably. And yet accusing this blog being a cesspool.
Right. JACP is calling this blog that is doing good, evil.
Then calling himself good (by saying he doesn’t belong here), as he enjoys traumatizing those already abused.
Patti, I agree with you assessment of Driscoll as well.
What about his wife??? I would not want my husband talking about me like this anywhere!
Just a Country Preacher,
You should take the advice of my old English prof. way back in the Jurassic age,
she said this:
“Never spend 300 words on something for which 30 will do nicely”.
She didn’t. He’s too thick to understand what’s being said. He told daisy he agreed with everything she said even though she said he was tmi.
I very much doubt that. This sounds like something only a man would think.
SitThisOneOut?
hmmm…
It is the February 14, 2019 chapel inappropriate abusive sexist discriminatory language remarks of Dr. Joshua Joy Dara that invoke the to date long standing necessity of an apology directed at the grieving student body of Louisiana College.
I have it when someone calls themself a “country” anything. That’s just code for backwoods ignorance being disguised as traditional down home values whatever that may be. My ex husband used to call himself “just a good ole country boy from Missouri”. He acted like he saw too many Dukes of Hazzards reruns. He sounded a lot like this country preacher guy although not a preacher himself. I grew up in the country, but I don’t spout the backwards nonsense a lot of people who define themselves with that label do. Just saying.
Back in 2002 this was huge in the John Piper cult. I saw it first hand. My niece came home from Wheaton a total Piper cultist. that is when my family started following him because we did not understand what happened to her.
When she married another Wheaton grad, 7 of her bridesmaids were from Wheaton and came to stay for a week of wedding festivities. This was the big topic of conversation at the bachelorette party. Every single girl from Wheaton who came was following Piper and made the declaration they would do this before their wedding night. my niece had her appointment for a Brazilian two days before her wedding.
I was appalled and begged each of them to think it through and made the best case I could for why it was not a good idea. But they were resolute. Some even cited Esther and her purification, etc.
the whole thing was total cognitive dissonance to me. How could this be a “thing” in Christian college circles for young women? But it was a HUGE thing.
Brazilians were not A New concept to me because I knew several young women from my professional capacity who had standing appointments for such at an elite salon here. I thought it was a sort of sick fad.
This has been around for a while in certain circles. Looks like it branched out, sadly.
Lydia,
To me at least, this makes sense why a mature, claiming to be Christian, male can stand in the pulpit and sound like a dirty old man.
🙁
Very Sex and the City. Carrie Bradshaw.
He absolutely said it – my spouse and I used to fight over it. I couldn’t believe he was willing to cast off countless innocent boys and girls whose only crime was having parents who chose to divorce. Wow. That was the last of many straws from Dobson. My opinion of him has only lessened with time.
Ah, the good ol’ days – I miss that as well. How ’bout it, TGBC?
I’m guessing IFB. Some scary legalism hides there.
I guess I’ve been away longer than I thought.
TS00,
Not just the legalism. The haughty, holier-than-thou, high-horse crap is just as annoying. Fortunately, when you question and push back against the outlandish things they say, it usually doesn’t take long for the self-righteousness surface in insults.
Sounds like an extension of Pastor parading his Smokin’ Hawt Trophy Wife before the lowborn.
“SEE WHAT I GOT THAT YOU CAN’T HAVE?”
***
Ground-A-Pound?
hmmm…
How simple would it have been to apologize, acknowledging there were flaws in his advanced tasteless humorless female abusing ill-religious verbal “mojo”? ;~(§
Backwards 501c3: LevelingThePlayingField?
hmmm…
Turn it off?
huh?
To incorporate an inappropriate amount of wealth of urban modern popular culture language into the renovation of Christian female sexual behavior? heavily influenced in these modern times by mass pornagraphic social media, this collection of now infamous ‘sermon’ ideas now permeates the everyday lives of students in this given 2019 era religious institution.
Because of this, popular religious campus culture is NOW to be considered as having entered an vulgar conceptual category.
“What are the odds?”
“Life sometimes goes like you don’t expect it to…, huh?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=29_gA_GDGvE
This is ‘real’ scary? ;~(§
////
Auto fill poses risks of its own. It might not simply store your TWW handle. If you place a credit card order online, then come to TWW, auto fill might just display your real-world name.
I don’t know how auto fill works on TWW right now, but prefer to enter my info every single time.
Patti,
I think something creepy is going on over at the school. What makes me sad is that women who have a voce are instead defending the status quo, claiming to be strong women. They are merely using the language of some who fight this stuff and incorporating into a system which has the audacity to attempt to defend this nonsense.
Ricco,
I love your comment. Stanley Hauerwas who is far more progressive than many marred a woman who became quite mentally ill. Instead of exploiting her, he stayed married and faithful to her. When she insisted on divorcing him, he made sure she had an excellent attorney so that he would not take advantage of her during that unwanted divorce. This is a link to his autobiography.
https://smile.amazon.com/Hannahs-Child-Theologians-Stanley-Hauerwas-ebook/dp/B003AIL3X2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=Q5177VP7V9GX&keywords=stanley+hauerwas+hannahs+child&qid=1561382690&s=gateway&sprefix=stanley+Hauer%2Caps%2C147&sr=8-1
Found the definition of “Brazilian” in that context.
That’s not just mowing a lawn, that’s spading it under completely.
Well, we know what head JACP’s thinking with….
Again, another unwanted look into a ManaGAWD’s sexual fetishes/kinks.
Which now has its Christianese knockoff.
Probably with its own Biblical Gospelly name.
“Just like a Brazilian, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!!!!!”
(Usually when “Just like this secular fad, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!!!!!” hits the Jesus Junk scene, said secular fad has jumped the shark. Day Late, Dollar Short.)
Lea,
Is that when JACP married her?
I certainly hope not.
Brian,
touché!!!! I have thought this exactly. I am just glad they are getting some backlash over this at LC
Lea,
Well, one does wonder with dudes like this.
I’m sure others have touched on this, but whatever one thinks of ‘mowing the lawn’, in what context is this an appropriate topic for a ‘leader’ at a ‘christian’ institution when speaking to unmarried co-eds about dating? Can someone explain to ignorant ol’ me how this has anything but a sexual connotation?