John Piper: the Pharisaical Expert on the Submission of Women

Women and girls, men and boys all share the right to live free of violence, which is, unfortunately, experienced by both men and women. Women and girls, however, disproportionately experience violence due to a deeply rooted global culture of gender discrimination. Nazanin Boniadi

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_pharisee_and_publican.jpg
The Pharisee and the Publican-Wikimedia Commons

I have long been convinced that John Piper has an agenda when it comes to limiting the roles of women in just about everything that puts them into a position of authority over men. He claims that his standards are derived from his interpretation of Scripture. I used to believe that he believed that. Now, I’m not so sure. His edicts go far beyond Scripture and that means something is amiss in churches which apply his edicts.

Women could not read Scripture or pray in the pulpit at his church.

He is quite gleeful about this *rule.* in Why Don’t Women Ever Read or Pray In Bethlehem’s Church Services? he said:

My reason is because—not that others have to see it this way—I view that moment and that place in the worship service as one of pastoral authority. The pulpit stands there symbolizing the word of God preached, and that’s what the elders are responsible to do. The reading of the text is part of that. And the offering up of the prayers of the congregation in an official, formal, representative capacity at the front is pastoral.

But in my sense, a woman is that moment acting like a pastor or elder, and that’s what we don’t think is appropriate.

This seems quite odd to me. Not only do women read Scripture in the pulpit at my conservative Lutheran church, women in the praise band will pray during the service. No one blinks an eye. No one thinks they are usurping the role of the pastor. In fact, I doubt if anyone sits there and wonders about such a thing.

When Scripture is read in a church, men and women stick to the text. They are literally repeating the words of Scripture. I don’t get that there is some sort of an *authoritative* reading and a *non-authoritative* reading. If a woman read it, would people sit there and say “Well, nothing to listen to here since a woman read it?” It makes no sense to me but I am a woman.

God chose women to speak some of those words in the Scripture. If women could not speak authoritatively, then  why did God allow Mary to directly speak the following beautiful words? Why didn’t He have Mary whisper these to a man and then have the man repeat these words? No, God used the beautiful words of a woman to speak to us then and now. Yet, in Piper’s odd view of Scripture, a woman cannot read the words of a woman in *his* pulpit because he doesn’t want a woman *acting like an elder.* Would he have let Mary speak these words in his church?

Mary’s Song
46 And Mary said:“My soul glorifies the Lord
47     and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49     for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”

Women cannot be muscular because it leads to volatile sex.

Did you choke on your donut? I am shocked that people overlook this mind boggling, unbiblical rule from Piper. In fact, I would love to have the take of a psychiatrist on this. We wrote about it here.

“Consider what is lost when women attempt to assume a more masculine role by appearing physically muscular and aggressive. It is true that there is something sexually stimulating about a muscular, scantily clad young woman pumping iron in a health club.

But no woman should be encouraged by this fact. For it probably means the sexual encounter that such an image would lead to is something very hasty and volatile, and in the long run unsatisfying.

The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man, but it does not beget several hours of moonlight walking with significant, caring conversation. The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, the less they can count on receiving from men a sensitivity to typically feminine ”

The abuse of a wife is OK so long as it only lasts a night.

Jesus apparently wants a woman to get walloped by her husband for a night since it will show she is submitted to her husband. Listen to how he tells a woman how to explain toher husband that she won’t have group sex. She needs to answer him in a way that builds him up…seriously? After asking her to have group sex? He seems more concerned about the man than he does the woman. Again, I would like to have a psychiatrist analyze this one.

There is nothing in Scripture that *proves* his point. Piper is a law unto himself. Sadly there are many young men who follow his words as if they are the very words of God. And they are not. They are his opinion and this opinion is dangerous for women. (Listen for his opening giggle.)

Women cannot be police officers, etc., if it involves giving directives to men

Now PIper brings it out of the church and into the secular marketplace. Here is where one must begin to question his biblical faithfulness. When asked if women should be police officers, he basically says no. He also carries it further.

If a woman’s job involves a good deal of directives toward men, they will need to be non-personal in general. If they don’t, men and women won’t flourish in the long run in that relationship without compromising profound biblical and psychological issues.

Conversely, if a woman’s relationship to a man is very personal, then the way she offers guidance and influence will need to be more non-directive. My own view is that there are some roles in society that will strain godly manhood and womanhood to the breaking point. But I leave women and men in those roles to sort that out. I have never tried to make that list.

So the key is: Do they deeply want to shape their whole lives by Scripture? And we may come to different views on some roles, but that submission to Scripture is a great common ground.

In other words, if you are a boss and your give orders to men, you are in the wrong role because it is not your God-given right to do that. Again, there is nothing in the Bible that says this.

He goes further to say that a woman exists to nurture the strength and leadership of men. They do?

At the heart of mature womanhood is a freeing disposition to affirm, receive, and nurture strength and leadership from worthy men in ways appropriate to a woman’s differing relationships.

He claims that gender roles go far beyond marriage.

In a recent post at Desiring God, Do Gender Roles Apply Beyond Marriage? he claims

Well, the answer is yes, gender alone — that is, our sexual maleness or femaleness alone — is an essential part of our God-given identity, whether we’re married or not. You are who you are everywhere you are, and with whomever you are. Your core identity as male or female does not change according to your audience or your relationships.

It is the next statement that needs some discussion. It appears that he believes that somehow our maleness and femaleness will travel with us into the next life. This raises the question: will women need to be submissive to men in heaven?

Now, as Christians, we believe that the brain and the soul are not identical but interrelated in mysterious ways that have profound correspondence. All Christians agree that we are morally responsible before God for our thoughts and our feelings, even though our brains (the organ inside our skull) and our hormones are involved in what we think and feel.

The mystery of how the brain and the supra-physical soul are related is probably incomprehensible to finite people. That would be my guess. I don’t think we’ll ever fully comprehend this mystery.

But we know that what the brain does in thinking and desiring reflects reality in the personhood. I mean, a personhood that is more than physical — the personhood that will exist after death, when we go to be with Christ, before the resurrection.

In other words, we are persons in the presence of Christ, enjoying Christ as “far better,” as Paul says, even though we don’t have bodies (Philippians 1:23). The brain is down there rotting in the grave, and our soul, our personhood, is in heaven with Christ.

The differences that exist in general between men’s and women’s brains along with the innate differences that mark our lives are profoundly woven together with the supra-physical personhood.

I’m going to make a leap here and say that I think Piper may believe that women will be in a subordinate/submissive position to men in heaven. I cannot prove it but others have seen it as well.

I believe that John Piper’s view on the roles of gender are not found specifically in Scripture. Not only that but restricting the roles of women in the church and society due to some personal interpretation of overall female gender submission is harmful to women and may interfere with God’s plan for women to be change agents in our society and in our churches.

Piper and the Pharisees: Is there a connection here?

This brings me back to Jesus’ contentious relationship with many of the Pharisees. The were supposedly the keepers of the law that would enable the people to live righteously. However, they corrupted the law by removing mercy and making the law intolerable. It became a legalistic set of rules that led the people into a religious slavery.

(Quick note: Jesus did not condemn all Pharisees. Nicodemus was one who sought out Jesus.)

At the same time, the Pharisees presented a *righteous exterior,* often flaunting it in front of the people who were struggling. Yet inside they were filled with self righteousness, greed, and superiority. Jesus let them have it in his *seven woes* to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:13-37. Here are a few.

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [b]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

Yet, at the very end of Jesus’ condemnation of the Pharisees who hurt the people, He refers to Himself and how He cared for them but they wouldn’t listen. They wanted nothing of His gentleness and mercy.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you,how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

I would rather not write about John Piper. I thankfully attend a church in which many have never heard of him. I have pastors who include women in the worship service. They treat the female Director of Christian Education (an important role in Lutheran churches) with profound respect. The men of the church do the weekly dinners and clean up. Women and men are confirmation guides, help with communion, read Scripture and pray.

However, John Piper is worshipped (yes, I mean that word and I think he knows it) by lots of young men coming out of Baptist seminaries. A Calvinist took over the pulpit of a local nondenominational church. One day, he got up to do his sermon and started off by saying “John Piper has stepped down from his pulpit. I don’t know how we will get along without him. We are now the gray hairs in the church.”

I believe that Piper is a modern day Pharisees. He’s especially concerned with limiting the role of women. I wonder what he is hiding inside…Something is wrong here.

The following tweets showed up when Piper’s latest post on gender roles came out. They make my point.


Comments

John Piper: the Pharisaical Expert on the Submission of Women — 236 Comments

  1. I think the key to it all is in Piper’s article that claims women shouldn’t be police officers. BTW, this used to be an article that is now a recording. Makes it much harder to photograph to blogs and Twitter, now doesn’t it?

    He says that a woman giving directions to a man offends that man’s masculinity, as does her assertion over him in positions of authority, like police officers.

    I suspect anyone giving directions to John Piper, man or woman, offends his pride.

    He might blame women for offending him, but I suspect he won’t take direction from anyone and separating women out just reduces that number by half.

    Never in New Calvinism have I seen admonitions against pride. Then you have all these mostly self-proclaimed pastors who assert they have authority over everyone else in the church. I think this cult religion was founded to bolster the pride of certain men and everything they say goes to protect that.

    Note that this doesn’t just apply to women, but any man not an elder. And some pastors have put elders beneath them. So Piper, and other men who have asserted themselves as authorities, can just put any man or woman below them if it suits them.

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  2. I am going to call foul. Piper shows a blatant disregard for the scripture to which he claims to adhere, from which there can be no weasling out: quite frankly, “When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 12:25).

    Incidentally, Jesus said this in response to Sadducees who were trying to enforce their own control-centered agenda regarding who a multiple-time widow has to “submit” to at the Resurrection. The main point being, gender roles seem to be swallowed up at the Resurrection and become irrelevant, replaced by something of which we are now only a murky shadow.

    I genuinely think there is something profoundly disturbed in a lot of these theologians’ childhood development that makes them obsessed with power and control, not to mention other unsavory obsessions…

    As an aside, Piper says he doubts that a relationship with a muscular woman is likely to lead to any moonlit romantic walks; I’m more inclined to think that spouting his view is the best way to guarantee those walks don’t happen in the first place — they’d keep healthy women a mile away. (Unfortunately, though, in my generation quoting Piper often seems to count as the first step in initiating courtship)

    By the way, on the subject of strong, “directive” women, I wonder what Piper would say about Rhonda Rousey…

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  3. I think there must be something deeply rooted in Piper and similar theologians’ early development that prompts them to have such imbalanced and unhealthy obsessions with sex and power dynamics. There must be a story there; but people with hidden pain will not admit to their actions being controlled by that pain — especially when it comes to control. I think Piper, among others, sounds awfully afraid healthy women.

    Not to mention, Piper blatantly disregards the very scripture to which he claims so vehemently to adhere. When asked who a multiple-time widow will be married to at the resurrection, Jesus says, “”Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Mark 12:24-25). I get the sense that “gender” and “gender roles” as we know them now will be irrelevant and replaced by something far better in the New Heaven and New Earth.

    As for muscular women being “evil” and something to kill the mood: I think spouting Piper’s views on women would be excellent birth control — it would keep all the healthy women away.

    (But the sad part is that, in my generation, quoting Piper is often used to initiate courtship…)

    I could say a whole lot more, but I’ll leave off with a slightly humorous question:

    How does Piper deal with the existence of Rhonda Rousey?

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  4. I can’t even with the muscly woman thing. As a survivor of marital rape that is beyond ludicrous. Don’t talk to me about volatile sex! My rapist said he did it because he was “very, very angry.” He might be confused cuz I’m thinking it was my muscles. My young son and his gorgeous, muscle-ey wife find this hysterically stupid. They quit listening to JP quite awhile ago since they declared him to have “gone way off the rails.” Would be funnier if there weren’t a horde of pastors eating this up. Woe to the woman who thinks she will find help for her abusive marriage with such men!

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  5. “And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, ” He said that because we did not bring any bread.” But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

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  6. Women and girls, men and boys all share the right to live free of violence, which is, unfortunately, experienced by both men and women. Women and girls, however, disproportionately experience violence due to a deeply rooted global culture of gender discrimination. Nazanin Boniadi

    Not quite on topic, but Nazanin Boniadi knows what she’s talking about.

    It is reliably reported that Ms. Boniadi was “auditioned” as a wife for Tom Cruise in 2004 before he settled on Katie Holmes. It is also asserted by Leah Remini that after this failed, Boniadi was punished by being forced to do menial labor and then got promoted to selling books on the street (aka “body routing”) in Tampa. Boniadi is no longer in Scientology.

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  7. The Pious Piper is five-foot-four (160cm) and built like a wet noodle. The average woman could fold him up and throw him in a dumpster. THAT’s why he has to preach Male Superiority and hate on Muscular Women(TM). Because as a man he’s what’s commonly called a Man Fail, and his ego can’t allow that. Hence the constant playing of Tough Guy(TM) and cutting everyone else down like Lord Farquar from Shrek decreeing that everyone else’s legs shall be amputated so nobody can stand taller than him.

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  8. A Calvinist took over the pulpit of a local nondenominational church. One day, he got up to do his sermon and started off by saying “John Piper has stepped down from his pulpit. I don’t know how we will get along without him. We are now the gray hairs in the church.”

    i.e. His God Was Dead.

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  9. I do think there’s three main types of New Cal pastors/elders. There’s those who are really insecure and want to put everyone below them to assauge their insecurity. I think many of the so-called “theologians” of the movement may be in this category.

    There’s the narcissists. I think that actually accounts for a lot of these celebrity megachurch pastors. Lots of charisma, intense desire to be the top dog, but not much in the way of spiritual grounding or deep biblical consideration. Many of these guys have someone else writing their sermons and doing all the administrative work.

    And then there’s the true believers, who I think may make up a lot of the elder boards. Sadly, some of my former SBC friends are in that category. They really think that by making all these rules and subjecting women they will have some sort of paradise on earth for the elect. The ones I know don’t read outside the New Cal circle, and they follow one of the two types of leaders above.

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  10. “The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man”

    TMI from J-Pip! Makes one wonder whether he’s speaking from experience, or what?

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  11. The pidepipper needs to rethink the ban on women praying or reading the Word in church. He is flat out in error on this. Women prophetess are well represented in scripture and yes they brought forth their messages in front of men so get over your penile pride, pidepipper.

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  12. “John Piper is worshipped (yes, I mean that word and I think he knows it) by lots of young men coming out of Baptist seminaries” (Dee)

    Their brains are fried … too many video games when they were growing up.

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  13. It’s interesting that I’m reading this article while watching an interview by Congressman Steve Scalise, who owes his life to both a male and female capittol officer. They managed to take out the mad gunman intent on shooting as many Republicans as possible. I’m sure those congressmen didn’t care about the gender of those protecting them.

    This is an older article from John Piper about women in combat. https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/co-ed-combat-and-cultural-cowardice

    There is an odd example about a male and female
    attacked by a knife-wielding man in an alley. Even though the man knows the woman has a black belt in karate, he should do the manly thing and jump
    In front of her, risking his own life.
    When I first read this, I thought, “This is such stupid reasoning! They should both work together using their individual strengths to take out the enemy!” This is how our churches should function. Men and women standing shoulder to shoulder, using their gifts to defeat a common enemy. A close family member of mine was part of Piper’s church for many years and was a first hand witness to how women were viewed and treated. Abused women were not safe and divorced women were treated with disrespect.

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  14. I can’t decide if I’m more concerned that people are listening to this man, or that we allow such a mentally disturbed person to be celebrated. Honestly, some burned out drug addled people make more sense than him.

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  15. I was checking out a new church in town, and there are some things about it that might be healthy. But then one of the pastors quoted Piper, and not with any sense of irony. “As John Piper said…” Red flag. I’m worried about anyone who quotes Piper, especially a leader.

    I do think that Piper has the ability to make short, pithy statements that are easy to quote, and I think that is part of his popularity. I’m guessing that most of these guys aren’t aware of his wackier comments. This post will be a good reference.

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  16. OP regarding Piper’s beliefs:

    This seems quite odd to me. Not only do women read Scripture in the pulpit at my conservative Lutheran church, women in the praise band will pray during the service.

    No one blinks an eye. No one thinks they are usurping the role of the pastor. In fact, I doubt if anyone sits there and wonders about such a thing.

    The first few years or decades (my memory is shaky here) after the formation of the Christian faith, the followers of Jesus went by oral tradition before the words were finally committed to vellum and parchment.

    I would take it that women at times, back in those early days of the faith, shared that oral tradition, prior to all of it being written down. Would Piper oppose that?

    Also, are there not examples in the Bible of women quoting Scripture back at other people?

    Doesn’t the Bible record women conversing directly with God – or through an angelic messenger, and God replies to them (they have conversations, God with women, women with God)?

    I believe that is so.

    Then there are examples in the New Testament of women conversing directly with Jesus (God in the second person), and I don’t recall Jesus ever covering his ears with his hands and saying, “La la la!!, I can’t hear you, it would be wrong for a male to listen to a woman.”

    Taking all that into consideration, how can any one argue that it’s wrong or sinful for any woman today to read from the Bible aloud?

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  17. Piper’s words:

    The differences that exist in general between men’s and women’s brains along with the innate differences that mark our lives are profoundly woven together with the supra-physical personhood.

    This post contains a collection of links to other sites on this subject:

    There Is No Biological Difference Between Male and Female Brains [studies]
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2018/06/26/%E2%80%A2-there-is-no-biological-difference-between-male-and-female-brains/

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  18. OP:

    I believe that John Piper’s view on the roles of gender are not found specifically in Scripture. Not only that but restricting the roles of women in the church and society due to some personal interpretation of overall female gender submission is harmful to women and may interfere with God’s plan for women to be change agents in our society and in our churches.

    I agree with all that, and wanted to address this part:

    “I believe that John Piper’s view on the roles of gender are not found specifically in Scripture.”

    A lot of Gender Complementarians claim to take the Bible seriously, literally, and to be sola scriptura (or something close to it). They also claim that anyone who rejects the comp interpretation of the Bible is conceding to feminism or culture.

    But some of them go outside of Scripture to come up with their gender-based rules and values.

    The Bible does not speak directly to whether or not a woman “may” or “should” work as a police officer – the Bible just does not get into telling women what career (if any) they should enter. It’s one of those things that God leaves up to the individual to decide.

    But along comes a complementarian like Piper to read his own weird, sexist, and restrictive views about what HE assumes God wants, or doesn’t want, women to do, back into the text.

    The Bible is simply silent on things like “should women work as police” or “should women attend gym and get involved in weight lifting.” But that doesn’t stop Piper from acting as though the Bible does speak to those topics, and he issues proclamations on them.

    Doesn’t the NT say that whatever you do, do it in honor or God?
    So, if the Bible is silent on a subject, you can probably go ahead and do whatever it is, so long as it’s honoring to God. Doesn’t that Biblical concept out-weight any of Piper’s sexist assumptions about these very specific areas of concern the Bible is silent on?

    Anyway, for a group of people who run around yelling about how others supposedly allow the culture to color their view of the Bible, it looks to me as though complementarians are actually very guilty of doing that very thing.
    They make up rules that are not in the Bible.

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  19. Fae the OP:
    GMFS

    Did you choke on your donut?

    No, because I don’t have a donut at the moment. This did, however, motivate me to go downstairs and make my morning kwafi (as it’s known in Noo Yoik).

    Yes, that’s right – I check TWW before I’ve even had my first coffee of the day. THATS how much I care!

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  20. Daisy,

    I’m smaller than he is, but I could take him. My brothers are all six footers.

    I think there is certainly a case to be made for the weakling guys who had a hard time at school heading into this kind of ‘theology’ because they can use the name of God to force ‘respect’ from women. And other men.

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  21. Daisy:
    OP:

    The Bible does not speak directly to whether or not a woman “may” or “should” work as a police officer – the Bible just does not get into telling women what career (if any) they should enter. It’s one of those things that God leaves up to the individual to decide.

    I have to scratch my head when people hold up the Proverbs 31 woman as a submissive housewife when she was clearly involved in business activities that highlighted her role as a breadwinner. Than you have Lydia who was a seller of purple which was extremely expensive, Phoebe was a deacon, Deborah was a prophetess and a judge, etc. And the excuses to show that Phoebe wasn’t a real deacon because 1 Tim. says deacons should only have one wife, or Deborah was only needed to shame the menfolk, etc. Anything to avoid saying that some women’s roles were not in the home and God approved.

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  22. @Lily Rose,

    Amen to everything you stated. You are clearly spot on.

    The irrational excuses made by so called theological men as to why women excelled, succeeded, and believed in the LORD, without men, is beyond mind boggling.

    And as far as the east is from the west, I have long believed that Piper is in need of getting a real job, leaving the pastorate to Jesus Christ per Matthew 28:18-20. All “authority” belongs to Jesus, not any man or woman.

    Jesus has been my One and only “pastor” for decades and He never lies to me, nor steers me wrong. Oh, what a Savior we have!

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  23. If women are never to be in a position of authority over man then there is quite literally no job or career left for us. In my chosen profession of healthcare I have many times been in leadership over men.

    I’m sure Piper would have quite a lot to say about my choice to be a firefighter/paramedic as that closely fits his police work paradigm.

    I am also a nurse working acute care on the cardiac floor.

    I can assure Piper that there are several male nurses, aides/techs, housekeepers, lab/phlebots, and other assorted personnel who come under the guidance and authority of us women – whether nursing admin or women physicians. Shall we all just hang up our caps and go home?

    And I suppose we female nurses ought to tone it down a bit when it comes to instructing/educating our male patients as we care for them. Right? That job is best left to the male nursing staff and physicians. Ooookay.

    Starting to feel like the 1920’s…. Does Piper disagree with the 19th amendment granting women the right to vote? That freedom gives us “authority” to choose who’s in office “over us.”
    Good Grief.

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  24. Dee, this is off topic, but I am curious, since you alluded to going to a conservative Lutheran Church, what is your opinion of Lutheran pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber?

    Where would she fall in liberal – conservative spectrum ?

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  25. ishy: I think the key to it all is in Piper’s article that claims women shouldn’t be police officers. BTW, this used to be an article that is now a recording. Makes it much harder to photograph to blogs and Twitter, now doesn’t it?

    Good point! He’s been saying this nonsense for years. I’ve read some of these articles before and the deeper you get the dumber it gets. He is absolutely convinced that men and women’s brains are radically different, to the point that women want to be told what to do all the time? Yet, he feels the need to advise them not to be directive – if it were not in their nature to be directive they would not need all of society trying to push them in the other direction.

    Many men prefer direct communication, btw. They are not all so personally insecure as John Piper.

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  26. ishy: And then there’s the true believers, who I think may make up a lot of the elder boards.

    hmm. Makes sense that true believers who have been swayed by the narcissists charisma would then be placed on an elder board.

    I think Piper is definitely in the insecure camp.

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  27. Jerome:
    “The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man”

    TMI from J-Pip! Makes one wonder whether he’s speaking from experience, or what?

    I am a woman. Any muscle I develop is feminine by definition, or alternately, it is simply human. Piper is off his rocker.

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  28. “I’m going to make a leap here and say that I think Piper may believe that women will be in a subordinate/submissive position to men in heaven.” (Dee)

    He’s practicing that already. When he rings a little bell, his wife Noel climbs three flights of stairs to his study to deliver hot tea.

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  29. Lea: Piper is off his rocker.

    A recent tweet by Piper: “You must bear the burden of responsibility that your children BE loved, but you dare not bear the burden of guaranteeing that they FEEL loved. In that case you would replace God’s objective command with their subjective response, and make a human the arbiter of obligation.”

    It must have been a great joy growing up in Piper’s home. What love is this?!

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  30. ishy: They really think that by making all these rules and subjecting women they will have some sort of paradise on earth for the elect.

    i.e. “This time We WILL Achieve True Communism!”

    And in practice, “Paradise on Earth for The Elect” usually means “Hell for everyone else”.

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  31. MikeS:
    He is aroused by women doing masculine thing, not a good grid to build theology on.

    I think he actually said something like “Muscular women can beget unnatural arousal in a man.”
    To which my comment then and now remains:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457N1m4oUZw
    (Come to think of it, that WOULD explain his wanna-be Tough Guy Hypermasculinity…)

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  32. Charis: If women are never to be in a position of authority over man then there is quite literally no job or career left for us.

    How about Breeding Stock?
    Servicing The Man on demand (nudge nudge wink wink…)?
    Climbing three flights of stairs to deliver tea whenever the Man rings Pavlov’s bell?
    (This all sounds like some form of He-Man Pornography fantasy….)

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  33. Charis: If women are never to be in a position of authority over man then there is quite literally no job or career left for us.

    I suspect that’s the whole point. I wonder if he agrees with the Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy about the appropriate place for a woman (at home). IIRC, one of them said that single women may have more freedom job wise than wives, but it was not the ordinary and fitting role for them to function as men’s equals in the marketplace, or something like that. There was also something about how a God honoring society would prefer male leadership in government and business as a support to the standard of male leadership in the home and church. I will say this for Doug Phillips and company, at least they were consistent.

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  34. “John Piper has stepped down from his pulpit. I don’t know how we will get along without him.”

    As Al Mohler would say “Where else are they going to go?”

    Such is the cult of personality. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that John Piper … John Piper! … would be worshiped by a great multitude of young men?! There’s a strange sickness sweeping through the American church.

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  35. ishy: don’t read outside the New Cal circle

    A young reformer’s dream team of elders and pew-sitters. The perfect control set-up for indoctrination, manipulation, and intimidation.

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  36. Headless Unicorn Guy: Climbing three flights of stairs to deliver tea whenever the Man rings Pavlov’s bell?

    One wonders whether Piper has ever fixed a drink for his wife, or brought her coffee, or any such thing? Can you imagine having a husband who never did these nice things for you?

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  37. For any Wartburgers contemplating learning Rachmaninov’s second piano conchertoe, please be aware that the opening minutes of the third movement are nothing like as easy as they sound.

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  38. Max:
    “I’m going to make a leap here and say that I think Piper may believe that women will be in a subordinate/submissive position to men in heaven.” (Dee)

    He’s practicing that already.When he rings a little bell, his wife Noel climbs three flights of stairs to his study to deliver hot tea.

    Someone needs to tell Piper that climbing stairs builds muscles.

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  39. Piper essentially functions as an Archbishop or a Cardnial for the YRR folks. If Piper claims that a text asserts p, then p is the correct interpretation end of story. In some ways these guys hold to papal infallibility more than Roman Catholics do, it is just that the pope who is infallible puplishes way too many books through Crossway Press.

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  40. I am a lector at my little rural mission. Once every month or six weeks, it’s my turn to read the Old Testament reading and the New Testament non-Gospel reading (usually an epistle). I have never once felt as if this made me the pastor. SMH.

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  41. Lea: One wonders whether Piper has ever fixed a drink for his wife, or brought her coffee, or any such thing? Can you imagine having a husband who never did these nice things for you?

    My friend and I were talking about this article yesterday and decided that men like Piper probably wouldn’t be able to keep a wife if they didn’t make it an inscrutable command from God.

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  42. drJ:
    Piper essentially functions as an Archbishop or a Cardnial for the YRR folks.If Piper claims that a text asserts p, then p is the correct interpretation end of story.In some ways these guys hold to papal infallibility more than Roman Catholics do, it is just that the pope who is infallible puplishes way too many books through Crossway Press.

    Well, our pope is only deemed infallible when he formally teaches “ex cathedra” on a matter of Faith or Morals, explicitly for the benefit of the Church Universal. This is a very rare occurrence. Piper OTOH is apparently infallible every time he burps, sneezes, or says “Boo.” 😀

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  43. Noevangelical,

    It’s actually my spelling. Otherwise, I’d have to pronounce it CON-suh-toe. This is in line with the doctrines of Nickism.

    “Enbruh” is also a Nickism-compatible spelling, as is “fitba'” – though the latter is quite widely used in jest here in Scotland.

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  44. He’s trying to be all intellectual-sounding, and so much of what he writes doesn’t even make sense. I’ve noticed this with other patriarchy guys as well. Do they realize they sound nothing like Jesus?

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  45. Instead of spending his days sitting down in a study, John Piper needs to develop his manly muscles by doing the physical work God created man to do. Such as farming, construction, mechanical or utility work, or a physical job in a factory. Doing such work in freezing cold, boiling heat, pouring rain, or driving snow instead of a climate controlled study should also help him develop his masculinity.

    As someone who cleaned offices part time for 12 ½ years at the manufacturer where I currently work full time in production, it’s interesting to me that a job John Piper would think is perfectly acceptable for women-cleaning-is also one where they develop the muscles he says is sinful for them to have. Shoving vacuums, mops, and brooms, hauling heavy trash bags, lifting heavy buckets, and dusting in hard to reach places is muscle building, physical work. If one cleans at a place where people sleep, add the lifting of heavy bedding and towels to the list. I wouldn’t be surprised if many women who clean for a living could give many male clergy who spend most of their days sitting a run for their money where physical fitness is concerned.

    I’m sure another reason the story of Deborah and Jael is ignored and marginalized by complementarians is because it took muscles for Jael to drive that tent peg through Sisera’s head. For that tent peg to kill him, it wasn’t one of those puny things sold with personal tents today and the hammer she used not one of the lightweight ones sold today. It took physical and mental strength for Jael to kill Sisera like that and despite all their protesting otherwise, complementarians don’t like mentally and physically strong women.

    @ Charis: If other communities are like mine, men wouldn’t vote were it not for the hard work of women. In my deep red community, most of the poll workers are women. Most workers in the county Election Board, including its manager, are women. Its former manager, who was red politically, was a formidable matriarch with the gift of teaching and leadership.

    A week ago this conservative feminist woman rose before 4 a.m, reported to the polling place she managed before 5 a.m, supervised a crew of four workers (2 women, 2 men) as we assisted 699 regular voters and one provisional voter, sent numerous other voters away because they were in the wrong polling place, closed the polls at 6 p.m, processed the last voter about 6:30 p.m, and left the polling place about 7:30 p.m. It was 8 p.m on the dot when my judge of the opposite political party ( a man) and I walked out of the place where we turned in the results.

    That man, BTW, was a veteran who worked on feet painful from a medical condition for over 12 hours. He had no problems being under the authority of a woman likely young enough to be his daughter. Would the so called “masculine” John Piper who can’t endure being under the authority of women be able to work on painful feet for over 12 hours, run after several voters who forgot to hit that crucial red button, and treat voters with differing views, skin colors, genders, and backgrounds with respect and love like that amazing judge?

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  46. Charis: Does Piper disagree with the 19th amendment granting women the right to vote?

    In his heart he probably does disagree with the 19th amendment, but he wouldn’t dare say it.

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  47. Back on topic: it’s time to talk about stuff that’s not Mr Piper. Two bits of trivia about the sun.

     One square metre of the sun’s “surface” (that is, the sun doesn’t have a hard surface, but if it did…) radiates energy at a rate of around 62MW – that is, enough to power a sizeable town.
     By contrast, the average cubic metre of the sun’s volume produces only a quarter of a watt – that is, enough to power four small LED fairy-lights.

    The simple arithmetic behind this is unarguable: a straightforward case of “r squared” versus “r cubed” when r is around 700 million (metres). But it’s an extraordinary result nonetheless. In fact, by my calculations, it’s over 300 times more interesting than John Piper’s opinion on women in a gym.

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  48. Either there is something seriously psychologically wrong with Piper, or he’s so committed to defending the (man-made) doctrine of female submission that he doesn’t realize how ridiculous and dangerous the things he’s saying are.

    A long time ago a very conservative Christian woman asked me if I thought a wife should stay with an abusive husband. She was clearly leaning toward trying to justify staying. My answer was simple: If he’s abusive, he has already broken the marriage vow. Obviously, blatantly in the worst possible way. There is not a marriage left to save, and it is on him. Leave now because you can’t salvage what’s not there, and it’s not worth risking your health or life to try. That remains my opinion now, decades later.
    It’s not that difficult to figure this stuff out.

    Also, he seems obsessed with turning almost everything into a discussion about sexuality. It’s just plain creepy.

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  49. Would they think a woman reading Scripture is not worth listening to? Unfortunately, I’ve read articles by men that say a woman speaking God’s truth should instead stay silent.

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  50. Anyway, back to the sun.

    The highest temperatures reached in the sun are not at the core, but in the corona. During a major flare event, the corona can reach temperatures of 20 million degrees, 5 million degrees hotter than the core.

    On 13th October 1983, the sun was visible from Kinlochquoich, north-west Scotland, for the first time in over 200 years.

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  51. Jeffrey J Chalmers: And which is worse, Piper or Driscol?

    At the height of their individual reign, they shared equivalent stardom within New Calvinist ranks. Together, they put the reformed movement on the map … one with his macho potty-mouth preaching, the other with his more refined narcegesis rendering of Scripture.

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  52. Melissa: Do they realize they sound nothing like Jesus?

    Heck, within New Calvinist ranks, they seldom mention the precious name of Jesus! They talk a lot about “God”, but hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. Reformed icons (e.g., Piper) get more air time in their sermons than Jesus.

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  53. Vinnie,

    No, but it LITERALLY NEVER used to stop raining around Loch Quoich. It was either raining, or extremely raining. The fact that I’ve had sunny days in the Knoydart peninsula is conclusive evidence of climate change.

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  54. Max: It would scare him to death to know that she is building muscles.

    I went looking for a picture of her/them out of curiosity and found this characteristically weird article from Piper:
    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/is-pastor-john-in-love-with-his-wife

    (on whether he is in love with her)
    “When she goes away, I miss her—not just because I might get tired of cereal (except that nice people bring us things), but also because there is a vacancy in the kitchen and in the living room and in the car and in the bed and in the air. ”

    I repeat, do you think he ever brings her things??? I thought it was super weird and gross he said ‘the kitchen’ first.

    He also said “Noël’s admiration matters uniquely to me.” Not her happiness. Her Admiration. Telling.

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  55. Benn: Where would she fall in liberal – conservative spectrum ?

    You know the extreme categories Piper and Voddie Baucham occupy right?

    Bolz-Weber is at the opposite extreme for the progressive camp.

    They are just as intolerant and Orwellian as they claim the conservatives are.

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  56. dee,

    In the “grand scheme of things” it really does seem that the Piper should have more important things to occupy his time with than women body builders?! Unless one “hangs out” at body building competitions, or looks at women body builder web sites, how many “muscular women” does one normally see in a day, or a year for that matter?

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  57. Lea: He also said “Noël’s admiration matters uniquely to me.” Not her happiness. Her Admiration. Telling.

    Sounds like Piper has a bad case of self-centeredness and self-love … narcissistic.

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  58. Lea: “When she goes away, I miss her … there is a vacancy in the kitchen …”

    Of course. That’s where she boils the water for his tea before she walks up three flights of stairs to his study, when he rings the little bell. And breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks … sure he misses her!

    (I made breakfast this morning, by the way … my wife loves my breakfast pie and biscuits and gravy … and I still feel like a man after I wash the dishes)

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  59. How in the world can Piper justify such doctrine? Has no one ever confronted him with the 59 One-Anothers in scripture that are evidence of mutual submission, compassion, authority, etc.?

    http://www.smallgroupchurches.com/the-59-one-anothers-of-the-bible/

    There is no evidence that women are required to be more submissive than men are…quite the contrary.

    … submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Eph 5:21

    If he can’t accept that one, clear passage, then direct him to the mutual authority in 1 Cor. 7:14 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 

    If he can’t accept that one, then surely he will have to swallow his pride, retract his errors and believe the list of 59 at the link above.

    If that fails, it’s time to “shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against him.”

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  60. Ishy: My friend and I were talking about this article yesterday and decided that men like Piper probably wouldn’t be able to keep a wife if they didn’t make it an inscrutable command from God.

    I have long thought that about any preacher-man who’s obsessed with Divorce as the Unpardonable Sin.
    That if he didn’t ring GAWD in as a weapon, his Widdle Winsome Wifey would ditch him in a microsecond.

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  61. Max: (I made breakfast this morning, by the way … my wife loves my breakfast pie and biscuits and gravy … and I still feel like a man after I wash the dishes)

    I just ate, and you’re making me hungry…

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  62. John: Also, he seems obsessed with turning almost everything into a discussion about sexuality. It’s just plain creepy.

    More like an unwanted peek into the ManaGAWD’s personal sexual fantasies/kinks.

    Long ago I concluded that Christians are just as sexually messed up as everyone else, just in a different direction.

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  63. Melissa:
    He’s trying to be all intellectual-sounding, and so much of what he writes doesn’t even make sense. I’ve noticed this with other patriarchy guys as well. Do they realize they sound nothing like Jesus?

    “You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown mysteries

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  64. Augustine: https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/08/03/will-complementarianism-survive-after-metoo/

    The camp is breaking up … Thank the living God!

    “I have had many people ask me over the last several months about the future of complementarianism.” (Russell Moore)

    He is really saying: “I have had many ‘New Calvinists’ ask me over the last several months about the future of complementarianism.”

    The “beauty of complementarity” is a cornerstone of the new reformation. A lot of young whippersnappers were attracted to the movement because the theology subordinated their women into submission. Take that away and they might get disillusioned with the whole mess. Thank God, indeed!

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  65. Max,

    Slavery is now illegal in most of the world. Complementarianism has been their last best hope.
    Poor babies – how will Piper, Moore, etc prove their “manhood” if Comp goes down the toilet?
    (Flag football, maybe?)

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  66. Augustine: https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/08/03/will-complementarianism-survive-after-metoo/

    Whew! I just listened to Moore’s podcast on this. I’ve got to tell you, for an supposed “intellectual”, he came across as not being very smart. A warning for those brave enough to listen to the podcast: He stumbled through a 24-minute single sentence without taking a breath! At one point, he confessed “Early in my ministry, I did not think complementarianism would survive … egalitarianism would end up winning the day … I’ve changed my mind about several things over the years …” He continued to waffle his way through a weak presentation of family vs. corporate complementarity and ended up essentially calling for a conversation on the possibility of a hybrid complementarian/egalitarian position on the role of women in church. These new reformers continue to dig themselves a deeper hole … they will leave their followers confused and disillusioned.

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  67. Natalie,

    It’s good to know that you were able to free yourself from religious despots.
    They’re all the same, it makes no difference really, whether they spout reformed theology or no.

    I broke free from the Calvary Chapel cult many years ago and haven’t looked back.

    Your blog is a good thing for those still enslaved…those huddled masses yearning to breathe free…

    Keep up the good work, some will chance upon your blog and muster the courage to say… NO MORE!

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  68. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): how will Piper, Moore, etc prove their “manhood” if Comp goes down the toilet?

    Well, openly confessing they were wrong about the role of women in the Body of Christ would be a good start, followed by repentance in sackcloth and ashes … a decision to be men of God, rather than popular preacher boys.

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  69. elastigirl: well, it does’t matter, you see, because christianity has a “masculine feel”.

    I’m not against feminine feels as well, so long as they don’t forget their place. As I’ve said before:
    So that as you walk in on Sunday morning and strong singing, led primarily by men, and then a voice from God is heard, and women are loving this, they’re radiant, they’re intelligent, they’re understanding, they’re processing, they’re interacting. Then all the gifts that were just articulated will flourish in that space. And as you navigate that community there will be feminine feels all over the place. IHTIH

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  70. Melissa:
    He’s trying to be all intellectual-sounding, and so much of what he writes doesn’t even make sense. I’ve noticed this with other patriarchy guys as well. Do they realize they sound nothing like Jesus?
    This last week I’ve come to realize I like gesis. Feminine feels have been asking whether my theology is eisigesis, arsegesis, narcegesis, misogygesis, or helpmegesis. Part of that answer’s clearly going to depend on what kind of gesis we’re dealing with here . . . .
    If this gesis, for example, is calling her to engage in abusive acts willingly – group sex, or something really weird, bizarre, harmful, that clearly would be sin. Then the way she submits – and I really think this is possible, it’s kind of paradoxical. She’s not going to go there. I’m saying no, she’s not going to do what Jesus would disapprove, even though the gesis is asking her to do it.

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  71. Ann,

    Actually, most people on the autism spectrum have no trouble empathizing with others, the trouble is that they do not show their empathy the way a neurotypical person does. So, to people who don’t know better it appears that there is no empathy.

    I don’t think his ridiculous views on women have anything to do with aspergers or any other part of the spectrum. I would add that regardless of any mental health issues he might have, his publicly espoused views should indeed be abhorrent to anyone who can empathize with anyone, and clearly that isn’t keeping people from worshipping him. So, please don’t trot out aspergers to explain away his serious lack of respect for all humans, and complete lack of reasoning skills.

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  72. Muff Potter: And just what is “their place”

    The feminine feels needs to be lead by the masculine feels and not sing more louder than them, even if the church has more wimmenfolks. And then a voice from god is heard, and women are loving this and… and… radiant! Probably glowing like Moses. Well mebbe not like him– mebbe like Miriam. When she wasn’t backtalking him. Kinda a reflected glow.

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  73. elastigirl:
    Pastor John,

    how tall you are you?

    Nunyer bamn dusine… oops is the mic on? Oh my (chuckling)… Part of that answer’s clearly going to depend on what kind of tall we’re dealing with here. More James Monroe than Abe Lincoln… but not quite Bildad the Shu-hite. Oh my — the wife is bringing me my tea– gotta pretend to be studying now!

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  74. Jeffrey J Chalmers,

    As I continue to reflect on all of this, I can not remember when I saw a “ muscular women” that The Piper is refering to,…. and I work at a Big State school with high powered athletics for over 30 years….. I once eat breakfast where the visting Penn State womens, varsity basketball team was eating…. they were TALL, but not “ muscular” like The Piper is talking about! Even womens crew member are big, but they are not “muscular”….

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  75. Pastor John: The feminine feels needs to be lead by the masculine feels and not sing more louder than them, even if the church has more wimmenfolks. And then a voice from god is heard, and women are loving this and… and… radiant! Probably glowing like Moses. Well mebbe not like him– mebbe like Miriam. When she wasn’t backtalking him. Kinda a reflected glow.

    Radiant , glowing???
    Uh huh.
    Mebbe cause we’re just a sittin’ there thinkin’daydreaming’ ’bout what we could do with our pointy-toed high-heel shoes!!!
    “Help” some men hit those high falsetto notes! Yep!

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  76. I have not read this article yet but as soon as I see the name “John Piper” I vomit. I can predict what venom he is going to spout. I am not judging his relationship with Jesus Christ but I will say this: Due to his influence, he is one of the most dangerous false teachers inside the church. His teaching is poison! It’s worse than a cult because he is so subtle in his misuse of Scripture.

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  77. Headless Unicorn Guy: The Pious Piper is five-foot-four (160cm) and built like a wet noodle. The average woman could fold him up and throw him in a dumpster. THAT’s why he has to preach Male Superiority and hate on Muscular Women(TM). Because as a man he’s what’s commonly called a Man Fail, and his ego can’t allow that. Hence the constant playing of Tough Guy(TM) and cutting everyone else down like Lord Farquar from Shrek decreeing that everyone else’s legs shall be amputated so nobody can stand taller than him.

    Hahaha! Well said – I could not have put it better.

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  78. Pastor John: Part of that answer’s clearly going to depend on what kind of tall we’re dealing with here. More James Monroe than Abe Lincoln… but not quite Bildad the Shu-hite.

    Pastor John, you can probably stand up to Bildad the Shoe-Height but what about that large Samaritan woman – The “Woman of Some Area” – that Jesus met at Jacob’s well in John 4?

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  79. Pastor John,

    “Part of that answer’s clearly going to depend on what kind of tall we’re dealing with here. More James Monroe than Abe Lincoln…”
    ++++++++++++++

    so, boob height, then.

    that explains everything.

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  80. Pastor John: I’m not against feminine feels as well, so long as they don’t forget their place. As I’ve said before:
    So that as you walk in on Sunday morning and strong singing, led primarily by men, and then a voice from God is heard, and women are loving this, they’re radiant, they’re intelligent, they’re understanding, they’re processing, they’re interacting.

    Dear John (you are so not my pastor) I am utterly convinced that you are not desirous of a ‘flesh and blood’ woman, instead something more mechanical and silicone-y with (a little bit) of artificial intelligence to boot. See https://www.abc.net.au/lateline/are-human-relationships-under-threat/8056252

    Quote:
    MARTIN FORD, FUTURIST: Another thing that a lot of people worry about, is the impact of this on men and how they view women. If you have a mechanical woman that you can basically treat any way you want, then what does that do to the way you treat women in the real world?

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  81. I think Piper et al. would be blown away if women were allowed to preach as equals in both the home church and the mission fields without restrictions. The gospel would spread like wild fire instead of stagnating like it is now in a lot of places. Don’t these guys realize they’re actually hindering the gospel when they take away half of Jesus’ army? Do these guys really think Jesus would be offended by women preaching with authority if the end results were the advance of the gospel? I really believe that when Psalm 68:1 said “an army of women” will give the Word in the end times, it really will mean “an army of women” as the Hebrew alludes to. Instead we have Pharisee Piper and his ilk who would rather play “ruler of the gentiles” (Mat. 20:25) dominance games than advance the kingdom here on earth. Satan must be very happy with this crew!

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  82. Lily Rose,

    Indeed. Had the early church been similarly obsessed with the i-dotting of ancient rules they didn’t understand, Acts would be telling the story of how Peter was excommunicated for his satanic vision of biblically unclean animals and the Council at Jerusalem affirmed its commitment to biblical circumcision of all gentile converts and the biblical god-honouring abstention from all biblically unclean foods biblical.





    Did I mention biblical?

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  83. Ann:
    The muscle thing on women is so creepy and disgusting!! Women are made to have muscles Otherwise God would not have given us muscles!

    They’re still confused about that whole women being human thing…

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  84. Lily Rose:
    I think Piper et al. would be blown away if women were allowed to preach as equals in both the home church and the mission fields without restrictions. The gospel would spread like wild fire instead of stagnating like it is now in a lot of places. Don’t these guys realize they’re actually hindering the gospel when they take away half of Jesus’ army? Do these guys really think Jesus would be offended by women preaching with authority if the end results were the advance of the gospel? I really believe that when Psalm 68:1 said “an army of women” will give the Word in the end times, it really will mean “an army of women” as the Hebrew alludes to. Instead we have Pharisee Piper and his ilk who would rather play “ruler of the gentiles” (Mat. 20:25) dominance games than advance the kingdom here on earth. Satan must be very happy with this crew!

    Where in psalm 68:1 do you read an army of women, I can’t even find that in the message bible translation.?

    Did you mean a different chapter and/ or verse? Just curious……

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  85. Daisy,

    From the article:

    “The anonymous young woman is saying Huh? What kind of advice is that? I would first of all advise her to acquire a different advisor.”

    I like Ruth Tucker.

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  86. Benn: Where in psalm 68:1 do you read an army of women, I can’t even find that in the message bible translation.?

    It can be found in Psalm 68:11:

    “The women who proclaim the good news are a great host (army)” (Psalm 68:11, Amplified translation)

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  87. Benn: Where in psalm 68:1 do you read an army of women, I can’t even find that in the message bible translation.?

    Did you mean a different chapter and/ or verse?Just curious……

    Sorry I mean Psalm 68: 11. If you want to read more about it, here’s a link-https://www.theaquilareport.com/thoughts-psalm-6811/

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  88. Lily Rose:
    I think Piper et al. would be blown away if women were allowed to preach as equals in both the home church and the mission fields without restrictions. The gospel would spread like wild fire instead of stagnating like it is now in a lot of places. Don’t these guys realize they’re actually hindering the gospel when they take away half of Jesus’ army? Do these guys really think Jesus would be offended by women preaching with authority if the end results were the advance of the gospel? I really believe that when Psalm 68:1 said “an army of women” will give the Word in the end times, it really will mean “an army of women” as the Hebrew alludes to. Instead we have Pharisee Piper and his ilk who would rather play “ruler of the gentiles” (Mat. 20:25) dominance games than advance the kingdom here on earth. Satan must be very happy with this crew!

    JP might not be pleased by a good outcome attained by such means. It was once affirmed to me by an extreme conservative Presby type (the context was related to my support of a female missionary who was teaching at a seminary overseas) that it would be less God-dishonoring for a man to teach error than for a women to teach truth.

    Something about “ends not justifying means.”

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  89. Samuel Conner,

    That’s the same mentality where women are told they cannot teach men because they are more easily deceived, but they can still teach other women and small children who presumably may be even more vulnerable to deception. I could rip my hair out when I hear this! It makes no sense, but the hard core Kool-aid drinkers don’t see the cognitive dissonance.

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  90. Samuel Conner: It was once affirmed to me by an extreme conservative Presby type (the context was related to my support of a female missionary who was teaching at a seminary overseas) that it would be less God-dishonoring for a man to teach error than for a women to teach truth.

    Who was the first to proclaim the good news of Christ’s resurrection? A woman.

    Who was the first to evangelize a Gentile town? The woman at the well.

    Who led the church at Ephesus? A woman – Priscilla, along with her husband Aquila.

    etc. etc.

    I would say to your friend “It would be more God-honoring for a woman to teach truth than for you to teach error.”

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  91. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “Help” some men hit those high falsetto notes! Yep!

    Some popes back in the good old days “helped” castrati not to turn into men, so they could hit the high notes and women could keep silent in church.

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  92. Lily Rose: It makes no sense

    This is the vast majority of comp to me. It makes no sense, or it’s mostly semantics (let’s call this person who if male we would deem ‘pastor’ a ‘director’ (and pay her less) because bible). Stuff like that drove me away from the Baptists for good. It’s just dumb.

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  93. ZechZav: what about that large Samaritan woman – The “Woman of Some Area” – that Jesus met at Jacob’s well in John 4

    She might be too scarily muscular for me… plus I’d be totally confused as to which husband or non-husband to counsel her to submit to.

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  94. FREEATLAST,

    If there was an emoji for vomit I would use it.
    I did not see any warning about being too muscular on the list for women, so I’m not sure that JP would approve.

    But those lists! Good grief…

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  95. FREEATLAST:
    Any thoughts on this?
    http://livinghopechurch.net/handouts-pdf/books/Marriage.Enrichment.book.pdf
    Thank you!

    I only skimmed it as much as I could. I like that the author emphasizes that headship is “love”, but then he still goes on to define it along the lines of “authority” which I can not get on board with especially when he clearly sees the husband as the “final decision maker”. There are a lot of good things he suggests as far as what husband/wives can do for each other, but unilateral decision making is not for me even when he tries to soften it by suggesting the husband “frequently give into her and allowing her to have her own way as long as it isn’t sinful”. Wouldn’t mutual submission just be easier? And this guy seems to assume everyone is in a traditional marriage while his suggestions aren’t going to do anything for a dual career couple. Even the Prov. 31 wife needs emotional support for her work outside the home! Very soft comp and predictable.

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  96. elastigirl: so, boob height, then.

    that explains everything.

    That reminds me– I’m late in publishing my inane tweet of the day. But I’ll tweet of deep necklines or something poetic and leave the boobs to Pastor Doug (who gets the gospel right).

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  97. Lea,

    Totally agree! Poor Phoebe wasn’t really a deacon though has the same title. Junia isn’t really an apostle and Priscilla didn’t really teach Apollo. Same song and dance!

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  98. Headless Unicorn Guy: The Pious Piper is five-foot-four

    But I can’t simply SAY that. Instead, I can compare myself to a president and maybe the thought will be planted that I’m a great leader. Just like– if I were asked “Are women human?” I couldn’t say yes or I’d sound like an egalitarian pleasure party promoting pastor. And I couldn’t say no without getting in hot water. So I’d give a long answer with some flowery adjectives– maybe starting with “That depends on what kind of human we’re talking about.”

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  99. Injun Joe:
    I’m thinkin’ Pastor John’s just a good-natured troll yankin’ all yer’ cranks.
    (he’s a card ain’t he?)

    I’m thinking you’re just Becky Thatcher usurping a masculine role. 🙂

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  100. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Poor babies – how will Piper, Moore, etc prove their “manhood” if Comp goes down the toilet?
    (Flag football, maybe?)

    As long as they “break someone’s neck” in flag football to show how Tough and Rugged and Manly they are! “SEE? SEE? SEE?”

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  101. Lily Rose:
    Lea,

    Totally agree! Poor Phoebe wasn’t really a deacon though has the same title. Junia isn’t really an apostle and Priscilla didn’t really teach Apollo. Same song and dance!

    Anyone heard the theory that Priscilla may have written most of the Book of Romans?

    Oh, and just as an aside, the English pronunciation of “Phoebe” (“Fee-bee”) always sounded silly to me. (I have no idea how it’s pronounced in the original Greek.)

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  102. Pastor John: Some popes back in the good old days “helped” castrati not to turn into men, so they could hit the high notes and women could keep silent in church.

    THAT IS NO JOKE. THAT WAS FOR REAL. AND YES, IT WAS JUSTIFIED TO OBEY SCRIPTURE: “WOMEN SHALL KEEP SILENT IN CHURCH.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato
    Despite such forced castration as children having a 90+% failure rate (post-op infection fatalities, inadequate singing ability afterwards to make the grade…)

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  103. Lily Rose: It makes no sense, but the hard core Kool-aid drinkers don’t see the cognitive dissonance.

    Too busy looking down into their pants adoring the organ whose existence puts them on top holding the whip. “GAWD Saith!”

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  104. RW: Actually, most people on the autism spectrum have no trouble empathizing with others, the trouble is that they do not show their empathy the way a neurotypical person does. So, to people who don’t know better it appears that there is no empathy.

    For me, it’s because of Overload — I’m thrashing so much internally next to nothing shows externally. Plus my upbringing under the thumb of a charming manipulator resulted in me avoiding anything that could be considered courteous or polite because to me that’s the Mark of the Sociopath.

    And in the various fandoms I’m in (Furry being the one that shows it the most), a LOT of the fen I run into are on “the low end of the autism spectrum”. Going Furry is both a refuge and a survival mechanism for them. One of my writing partners (the self-educated son of a steelworker) shows the signs of both low-end autism and PTSD from a life of psychological abuse. He is THE hottest raw writing talent I have come across in decades, yet the damage (above and beyond the usual instability you find in most Creatives) limits his output considerably.

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  105. Haitch: Dear John (you are so not my pastor) I am utterly convinced that you are not desirous of a ‘flesh and blood’ woman, instead something more mechanical and silicone-y with (a little bit) of artificial intelligence to boot…

    Sounds like this-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTbPyW1vo90

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  106. Max: Whew! I just listened to Moore’s podcast on this. I’ve got to tell you, for an supposed “intellectual”, he came across as not being very smart.

    Again, “You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.” (Only an attitude.)

    A warning for those brave enough to listen to the podcast: He stumbled through a 24-minute single sentence without taking a breath!

    Wow! An audio version of the all-one-run-on-sentence chapter that’s the climax of Atlas Shrugged!

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  107. Lily Rose: suggesting the husband “frequently give into her and allowing her to have her own way as long as it isn’t sinful”.

    Gross, Gross, Gross. No. Pass.

    I literally cannot even imagine how much I would hate and despise a marriage like this.

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  108. Injun Joe: I’m thinkin’ Pastor John’s just a good-natured troll yankin’ all yer’ cranks.
    (he’s a card ain’t he?)

    Yeah, I figured that from the get-go when Pastor John showed up. Could be a regular Wartburger having some fun.

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  109. Noevangelical: But those lists! Good grief…

    “Having a cup of coffee or tea ready for him when he comes home.”

    My boyfriend fixes me a drink when I get home. I think he has this wife stuff knocked out! Woot.

    (BTW, most of this wife stuff listed seems to be about sex – that is the stuff that isn’t ‘Supporting him and cooperating with him enthusiastically
    and positively when he has made a decision.’)

    I otoh would be a terrible wife because I have no interest in reading the ‘literature’ he suggests, but I will watch football. Half points?

    I almost thought the husband list had been left out but it does not disappoint. Apparently doing dishes 2 times a week is the sweet spot? Who knew.

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  110. Headless Unicorn Guy: Wow! An audio version of the all-one-run-on-sentence chapter that’s the climax of Atlas Shrugged!

    I struggled to get through the chapter titled “This is John Galt speaking” like I have never struggled to read anything else. How Ayn Rand managed to produce that or anyone edit it, I have no idea. I might as well try to read James Joyce.

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  111. Headless Unicorn Guy: Ishy: My friend and I were talking about this article yesterday and decided that men like Piper probably wouldn’t be able to keep a wife if they didn’t make it an inscrutable command from God.

    I have long thought that about any preacher-man who’s obsessed with Divorce as the Unpardonable Sin.

    This is, I believe, a very important statement, and not simply snark. What this theology of ‘No divorce, ever’ creates is a setting ripe for abuse. The husband has no incentive to reign in his darker instincts, and the wife has no hope of escaping his wrath should she refuse to ‘make him happy’ in any way. This is, IMO, one of the vilest, most abusive doctrines of fundagelicalism, all wrapped up in ‘angel of light’ language about biblical purity and honoring God. The warned tactics of the anti-Christ, which naive churchgoers miss because they are looking for Lindesy/Jenkins-style wonders. (Sort of an interesting corollary that ol Jerry and JMac, representing two of the powerhouses of modern evangelicalism, like to gamble together.)

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  112. Samuel Conner: It was once affirmed to me by an extreme conservative Presby type (the context was related to my support of a female missionary who was teaching at a seminary overseas) that it would be less God-dishonoring for a man to teach error than for a women to teach truth.

    Something about “ends not justifying means.”

    That’s exactly how this mindset sees it. Wow. Sounds like their ‘god’ has as much insecurity as his preacher boys. He would rather have his good ol’ boys preaching error than be confronted by the frightening image of a woman sharing the truth.

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  113. Like Gloria Allred and John F Kerry (Who Served in Vietnam), The Pious Piper is a South Park cartoon of himself.

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  114. TS00: This is, I believe, a very important statement, and not simply snark. What this theology of ‘No divorce, ever’ creates is a setting ripe for abuse. The husband has no incentive to reign in his darker instincts, and the wife has no hope of escaping his wrath should she refuse to ‘make him happy’ in any way.

    Heaven for the Wife-Beater, with God as his Weapon.

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  115. If “p’astor John Piper’s” life were endangered in the public area and was in need of police protection, would he dismiss the woman officer (who is professionally trained and armed to protect citizens such as JP) and tell her to go home because she is indeed, “a woman?”

    And is John Piper’s household “divorce free” so he can preach from a non-hypocritical standpoint? Hmmmmmmm.

    One adjective that describes Piper;

    Fool.

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  116. I’m sure there are female body-builders, and probably more than there were a few decades ago, but I don’t recall seeing very many muscular women, well, ever. Is that something that happens a lot in Piper’s world? What an oddly specific thing to focus on.

    I wonder what his view on women wearing trousers is.

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  117. Max: Yeah, I figured that from the get-go when Pastor John showed up. Could be a regular Wartburger having some fun.

    As I have a WordPress account, my avatar is picked up by all my alter-egos (I could use a different email address, I suppose, but it’s simpler for GBTC and Dee if I don’t). But Pastor John is tacitly understood to be a regular Wartburger with extra fries, yes.

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  118. Max: Robert M: I wonder what his view on women wearing trousers is.

    Oh my (chuckle). That is the abomination that causes desolation.

    Don’t be silly. That’s obviously the low necklines. 😉

    Somehow these pastor types are unable to wrassle up enough self control to deal with the realities of the female body, as the vast majority of secular society mostly seems to manage. Subjugation is obviously the only solution!

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  119. Anyway, back onto topics that are more interesting that the Pied Piper. And what could possibly be more interesting than cricket!

    The Second Test began today; England won the toss and batted. Obviously, the top order failed as usual; this time around it was Jos Buttler (63 from 67) and Sam Curran (64 from 119) who wrestled the initiative back on a difficult wicket, and in the face of some good bowling from Sri Lanka. England were all out for 285, with Sri Lanka 26-1 in reply in a match that is finely poised.

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  120. Samuel Conner: JP might not be pleased by a good outcome attained by such means. It was once affirmed to me by an extreme conservative Presby type (the context was related to my support of a female missionary who was teaching at a seminary overseas) that it would be less God-dishonoring for a man to teach error than for a women to teach truth.

    Something about “ends not justifying means.”

    I guess some people think that a lost man would be better off burning in Hades than being introduced to Jesus by a woman.

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  121. Lea,

    Does he realize how homosexual he sounds when talking of being aroused by masculine musculature? Noel, please put John in the time out chair. He is hurting people with a platform centered around him and not the Lord.

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  122. Lea,

    Does he realize how homosexual he sounds when talking of being aroused by masculine musculature? Noel, please put John in the time out chair. He is hurting people with a platform centered around him and not the Lord.
    Lea,

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  123. Lily Rose,

    If headship=love, wouldn’t that mean that a submissive, obedient wife doesn’t love her husband?
    Or does a wife show love the EXACT OPPOSITE way a husband does??

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  124. Benn:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Kerry served in Vietnam, I wish he had told us that ! ( more than every single time he opens his pie hole)

    Just like the guy from Married With Children always reminded everybody that “I was a Football Star in High School. Once I scored Three Touchdowns in One Game!”

    Both are examples of someone constantly reliving their past Glory Days. AKA STUCK.

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  125. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I guess some people think that a lost man would be better off burning in Hades than being introduced to Jesus by a woman.

    There isn’t anything the devil hates worse than women and Jews.
    Woman, because it was her genome that God chose to bring himself into this world with, and the Jews because they were the vehicle for the genealogy in Matthew’s Gospel.

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  126. In the hallowed bowels of Calvinist higher learning, young men are being robbed of the ability of clear thinking. God help them.

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  127. Nancy2(aka Kevlar):
    Lily Rose,

    If headship=love, wouldn’t that mean that a submissive, obedient wife doesn’t love her husband?
    Or does a wife show love the EXACT OPPOSITE way a husband does??

    In my view, head is the SOURCE of LOVE with mutual submission of that love being the result. The people that try to put authority into it think head means leader in ancient Greek which it does not.

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  128. Muff Potter:
    Finally, as an after-note folks, in all of Christendom, how many people actually take John Piper seriously?

    In the United States, John Piper has a huge following, the gospel Coalition had an article/survey back in the summer leading up to the vote in Dallas for the incoming president of the SBC ( J D Greear, the new Cal won).

    They ranked the top fifty leaders in Calvinist pecking order, and John Piper was ranked most influential of all…

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  129. Muff Potter:
    Finally, as an after-note folks, in all of Christendom, how many people actually take John Piper seriously?

    Muff,

    Piper is the visible evangelical poster boy for the conservative church, whose words/philosophies are worshipped far above Christ Himself. His charisma, his charm, and his so called “humble” approach to apostate Christianity, tickles the ears of the complementarian/patriarchy view of “the church.” And due to the fact that leadership/hierarchal teachings are the pinnacle of the apostate church, Piper is a “little god” atop of the golden calf, roping in those who have left their religious critical thinking skills at the door, before entering.

    Pipe IS a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and church folks love him to pieces, for they would rather have a man interpret the Scriptures for them, rather than studying/meditating upon the Scriptures for themselves.

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  130. Muff Potter:
    Finally, as an after-note folks, in all of Christendom, how many people actually take John Piper seriously?

    That is the question! Many of my former friends in UK churches think he is the best thing since sliced bread. Their refusal to condemn or even criticise any his strange doctrines is one reason I walked out the door.

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  131. “ForTheRecord?”: In the hallowed bowels of Calvinist higher learning, young men are being robbed of the ability of clear thinking. God help them.

    Yes, Group Think robs Critical Think. The Pied Piper, and others like him, put followers under a theological trance. Half-truth inoculates the hearer from catching Truth.

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  132. Max: Yes, Group Think robs Critical Think. The Pied Piper, and others like him, put followers under a theological trance. Half-truth inoculates the hearer from catching Truth.

    Truth by bureaucratic declaration is as strong in the so-called Church as it is in so-called Science. Both resent and resist legitimate, necessary questions that challenge the official, reigning orthodoxy. (For one good example, explore one of many pages examining ‘Einstein’s Errors’:
    https://politicsandprosperity.com/einsteins-errors/ )

    In perhaps my favorite Science article of all time, Dr. John P.A. Ioannidis, currently a professor in disease prevention at Stanford University, published the most widely accessed article in the history of the Public Library of Science (PLoS) entitled “Why Most Published Research Findings Are False”, stating:

    “There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false . . .” and that “. . . in modern research, false findings may be the majority or even the vast majority of published research claims.”

    http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

    One might be tempted to think Ioannidis was attacking science, but I would suggest it was more likely an attempt to desperately explain (excuse?) the facts that a few honest journal editors had recently admitted:

    “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.”

    – Former editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, Dr. Marcia Angell, wrote in 2009

    “Much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.”

    – Richard Horton, Former editor in chief of Lancet

    Those who understand the true nature of science, understand that the best it can honestly claim is to reduce uncertainty. Those who fiercely claim that no one can challenge ‘Proven Science’, i.e., the officially declared, orthodox (bureaucratic) ‘Truth’, are as much charlatans as the religious authoritarians who called for the stake when anyone dared to disagree with their doctrinal assertions.

    By definition, the role of ‘Religion’ and ‘Science’ is to question what is believed or claimed to be true. Ioannidis simply suggests how easy it is to create the illusion of ‘Truth’ by supposed ‘peer-reviewed science’ that, frankly, can never be replicated. Piper and friends are guilty of the same hubris. Real truth remains utterly untroubled by questions or demands for evidence, rather than calling for the torch when challenged.

    My intention is not so much to condemn Science, as to point out how much of a false authoritarian upholder of unquestionable Creeds it has become; all are commanded to bow to the proclamations of an Einstein or other Science ‘god’, in spite of the many remaining questions that are rarely admitted to the general public. This is an affront to genuine science, which I value highly. We should unblushingly remain Bereans, in Science, Religion and all other pursuits of truth.

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  133. Lea,

    “Mind Boggling to me how people think piper has charisma or charm!”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, that “Christianity has a masculine feel” statement (like all his other it-is-right-and-godly-for-men-to-have-power-over-women commentary) was a mind-controlling magic spell.

    for those easily led, that is.

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  134. Lea: Mind Boggling to me how people think piper has charisma or charm!

    The young reformers remind me of the Athenians in Scripture in some ways. In their rebellion against the faith of their fathers, they entertain anything new.

    “May we know what this strange new teaching is which you are proclaiming? For you are bringing some startling and strange things to our ears; so we want to know what they mean. (Now all the Athenians and the foreigners visiting there used to spend their leisure time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)” (Acts 17:19-21 AMP)

    There is a strange fire sweeping through the American church. It is fanned by a cult of personality … and the Piper cult is the strangest of them all!

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  135. elastigirl: Lea,

    “Mind Boggling to me how people think piper has charisma or charm!”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, that “Christianity has a masculine feel” statement (like all his other it-is-right-and-godly-for-men-to-have-power-over-women commentary) was a mind-controlling magic spell.

    for those easily led, that is.

    Precisely. Do you, like a Berean, grapple with all truth statements to verify their reasonableness, consistency and faithfulness to scripture, or do you embrace the proclamation of truth from a self-claimed authority? That is the difference between those who are led, by the Spirit of God, to an ever increasing understanding of truth and those who remain deceived by the vast web of deceit intricately woven by the great deceiver and his minions.

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  136. Lea: Mind Boggling to me how people think piper has charisma or charm! He seems like such a drip.

    Ditto. I remember the first time I heard him speak, not long after his first book. The guys I was with pretty much were in love, and afterwards gushed for days.

    I was sitting there thinking that Piper’s whole theology sounded like it was all about getting what he wanted from God. As long as you are male, New Calvinism is essentially a prosperity gospel. Even more so if you are a male pastor.

    Oh, and he was soooo boring to listen to!

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  137. Ishy,

    Admittedly, it’s a different kind of prosperity that they are preaching, one of power. You get the possibility of bossing everyone else around as a pastor or elder, a slave maid with benefits, and a free and permanent “Elect” pass from God for the evils you do against others.

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  138. Ishy: a free and permanent “Elect” pass from God for the evils you do against others

    Piper, Mohler, and other leaders in the New Calvinist movement have convinced a young army of reformers that they have come into the world for such a time as this, and that they alone are the sole keepers of truth. Thus, anything is OK in your quest to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the church has lost – God winks at any misbehaving to accomplish the mission. It was predestined.

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  139. Ishy: Admittedly, it’s a different kind of prosperity that they are preaching, one of power. You get the possibility of bossing everyone else around as a pastor or elder, a slave maid with benefits, and a free and permanent “Elect” pass from God for the evils you do against others.

    Wow. Best distillation of Reformed Theology I have ever heard.

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  140. Max: Piper, Mohler, and other leaders in the New Calvinist movement have convinced a young army of reformers that they have come into the world for such a time as this, and that they alone are the sole keepers of truth. Thus, anything is OK in your quest to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the church has lost – God winks at any misbehaving to accomplish the mission. It was predestined.

    “Just ________________ and you will be like God and free to do whatever you wish.” (Read Ishy’s comment as to bossing everyone else around, having a slave maid with benefits and a free pass to do evil.) Same ol’ lie, greased with same ol’ self-serving benefits.

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  141. apropos of nothing … Doug Wilson and Randy Booth just issued a 2nd edition of A Justice Primer earlier this year. They admit that mistakes were made but not who pointed out that they were made … which is really, really telling given the … reception history of the first edition.

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  142. Max: Piper, Mohler, and other leaders in the Thus, anything is OK in your quest to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the church has lost – God winks at any misbehaving to accomplish the mission.It was predestined.

    WenatcheeTheHatchet:
    apropos of nothing … Doug Wilson and Randy Booth just issued a 2nd edition of A Justice Primer earlier this year. They admit that mistakes were made but not who pointed out that they were made … which is really, really telling given the … reception history of the first edition.

    After I saw Max’s comment, I was thinking that their definition of buddy pastors “restoring the Gospel” is telling when you look at pastors like Wilson and Mahaney, who have probably lost them way more people than they’ve brought, not to mention all the bad press they’ve garnered for the movement.

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  143. Benn: In the United States, John Piper has a huge following, the gospel Coalition had an article/survey back in the summer leading up to the vote in Dallas for the incoming president of the SBC ( J D Greear, the new Cal won).

    They ranked the top fifty leaders in Calvinist pecking order, and John Piper was ranked most influential of all…

    And yet I was a christian for most of my life and never heard of this clown. I even did an informal poll a while back of my circle of co-workers & acquaintances. Some of these folks (including my wife) definitely were in the evangelical bucket…and nothing.

    I lie – one guy thought I was talking about the wrestler….Rowdy Roddy Piper.

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  144. Yet in the library of my wife’s church (pentecostal, not calvinist) I found a book on the shelf that has been discussed here extensively. That one about men & women’s biblical roles. I could look it up but I don’t really care about the title.

    Anyway, no matter what a church espouses in the Sunday service, there’s always something under the veneer.

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  145. Jack: no matter what a church espouses in the Sunday service, there’s always something under the veneer

    A thin veneer of Christianity conceals much of what goes on in the 21st century church.

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  146. WenatcheeTheHatchet: apropos of nothing … Doug Wilson and Randy Booth just issued a 2nd edition of A Justice Primer earlier this year.

    Is that “Penetrate/Colonize/Conquer/Plant” Wilson, AKA the wanna-be Rajneesh of Moscow, Idaho?

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  147. Max: Piper, Mohler, and other leaders in the New Calvinist movement have convinced a young army of reformers that they have come into the world for such a time as this, and that they alone are the sole keepers of truth.

    Wasn’t there a funny guy with a little mustache who convinced the major nation in Central Europe of the exact same thing? “RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”

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  148. Ishy: Ditto. I remember the first time I heard him speak, not long after his first book. The guys I was with pretty much were in love, and afterwards gushed for days.

    “I WANT TO HAVE HIS CHILD!!!!!”

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  149. I can get pretty heated toward both Calvinism per se and the Patriarchalism-falsely-called-Complementarianism that often accompanies it.

    I do have more compassion toward Piper than toward others such as J-Mac and Grudem after hearing him discuss dealing with depression continually for about ten years.

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  150. Kendra Husband:
    This is an older article from John Piper about women in combat. https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/co-ed-combat-and-cultural-cowardice

    There is an odd example about a male and female
    attacked by a knife-wielding man in an alley. Even though the man knows the woman has a black belt in karate, he should do the manly thing and jump
    In front of her, risking his own life.
    When I first read this, I thought, “This is such stupid reasoning! They should both work together using their individual strengths to take out the enemy!”

    There’s a an online video where a couple are swimming in a private pool at a resort in Zimbabwe when a crocodile suddenly lunges into the pool. The boyfriend or husband hightails it out of there leaving his wife/ girlfriend to fend off the crocodile by herself. Another male comes to assist her, but she had already successfully fended off the croc and climbed out of the pool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL7J-ZQgltY

    Do you think the Pied Piper would have wrestled the croc to save his wife? Or do you think she would have had to save HIM? My bet would be on his wife. LOL

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  151. Kendra Husband:
    This is an older article from John Piper about women in combat.
    There is an odd example about a male and female
    attacked by a knife-wielding man in an alley. Even though the man knows the woman has a black belt in karate, he should do the manly thing and jump
    In front of her, risking his own life.
    When I first read this, I thought, “This is such stupid reasoning! They should both work together using their individual strengths to take out the enemy!”

    There’s a an online video where a couple are swimming in a private pool at a resort in Zimbabwe when a crocodile suddenly lunges into the pool. The boyfriend or husband hightails it out of there leaving his wife/ girlfriend to fend off the crocodile by herself. Another male comes to assist her, but she had already successfully fended off the croc and climbed out of the pool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL7J-ZQgltY

    Do you think the Pied Piper would have wrestled the croc to save his wife? Or do you think she would have had to save HIM? My bet would be on his wife. LOL

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  152. Pastor John: She might be too scarily muscular for me… plus I’d be totally confused as to which husband or non-husband to counsel her to submit to.

    Poe’s Law! I’m calling Poe on Last John. Well done, sir!

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  153. Jack: And yet I was a christian for most of my life and never heard of this clown.I even did an informal poll a while back of my circle of co-workers & acquaintances.Some of these folks (including my wife) definitely were in the evangelical bucket…and nothing.

    I lie – one guy thought I was talking about the wrestler….Rowdy Roddy Piper.

    I’d heard of him only because my son was briefly involved with Navigators at Bama. Those Navs kids worship Piper.

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  154. Max: Yeah, I figured that from the get-go when Pastor John showed up.Could be a regular Wartburger having some fun.

    I agree. Many dead giveaways. Poe’s Law.

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  155. Nick Bulbeck: But Pastor John is tacitly understood to be a regular Wartburger with extra fries, yes.

    This is why PJ (i think i should refer to him in the third person) sometimes comments about the arnolds, god, or recently Becky Thatcher.

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  156. Catholic Gate-Crasher: I’d heard of him only because my son was briefly involved with Navigators at Bama. Those Navs kids worship Piper.

    Even back in the Seventies, the Navs had a reputation for Extremism. I remember them having the highest burnout and flunkout rates of any on-campus group. (And there have been “Fellowships” even more X-Treme; Teen Mania and Maranatha Ministries come to mind.)

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  157. Let’s face an inconvenient truth.
    These guys (Piper, Grudem, Baucham,…whomever, and it makes no difference if they’re reformed or non-reformed) are scared you-know-whatless of the primal power and strength of women.
    They’re jealous of it and want to suppress it in any way they can.

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  158. Exactly how drunk on power must one be to say anything even remotely similar to this!!!!???

    “My reason is because—not that others have to see it this way—I view that moment and that place in the worship service as one of pastoral authority. The pulpit stands there symbolizing the word of God preached, and that’s what the elders are responsible to do. The reading of the text is part of that. And the offering up of the prayers of the congregation in an official, formal, representative capacity at the front is pastoral.”

    Demonic.

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  159. Jack: one guy thought I was talking about the wrestler….Rowdy Roddy Piper.

    When PJ (Pastor John) first heard about JP, he thought they were talking about DON Piper, who supposedly spent 90 minutes in heaven.

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  160. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Poe’s Law.

    PJ (Pastor John) is a veritable Edgar Allan. And his job is easy– simply cut and paste inane, heretical, and dangerous things the real JP has really said. But it’s more fun to interpret the tongues.

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  161. hoodaticus: The pulpit stands there symbolizing the word of God preached,

    Allow me to interpret. I want sheeple to think that when ordinary men who’ve given each other titles stand behind an ordinary piece furniture holding their notes, it magically transforms their opinions and storytelling into “a voice from God is heard”.

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  162. Pastor John: When PJ (Pastor John) first heard about JP, he thought they were talking about DON Piper, who supposedly spent 90 minutes in heaven.

    Don Piper spent a few minutes somewhere over the rainbow, but not in Heaven!

    Could it be that p’astor John Piper and Don Piper are related……and possibly living in the land of fictional Oz?

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  163. Pastor John: hoodaticus: The pulpit stands there symbolizing the word of God preached,

    Allow me to interpret. I want sheeple to think that when ordinary men who’ve given each other titles stand behind an ordinary piece furniture holding their notes, it magically transforms their opinions and storytelling into “a voice from God is heard”.

    And guess who is most likely to burst that illusory bubble? The Lil’ woman who knows he can’t boil water for his own tea, can’t find his socks without her help and couldn’t intuitively grasp a situation if his life depended on it. She must be subjugated, mortified and – most of all – silenced; because she knows that this ‘god’ has feet of clay. And would be lost without her.

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  164. Pastor John: hoodaticus: The pulpit stands there symbolizing the word of God preached,

    Allow me to interpret. I want sheeple to think that when ordinary men who’ve given each other titles stand behind an ordinary piece furniture holding their notes, it magically transforms their opinions and storytelling into “a voice from God is heard”.

    As my former pastor so humbly put it:

    ‘When I speak from this pulpit, I speak for God.’

    Of course, he couldn’t have meant what it sounded like. Or so one would like to believe, until he tells an elder’s wife that she would be ‘in rebellion’ if she held to a different interpretation of scripture than that which he presented from the pulpit.

    Outta there!

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  165. Lily Rose: There’s a an online video where a couple are swimming in a private pool at a resort in Zimbabwe when a crocodile suddenly lunges into the pool. The boyfriend or husband hightails it out of there leaving his wife/ girlfriend to fend off the crocodile by herself.

    Sounds like a famous story from the Werewolves of Verdun Manor:
    https://www.thrillvania.com/verdun-manor/
    Big macho quarterback type and his girlfriend were going through the Manor when they got jump-scared by a pack of the Manor’s Werewolves (and Verdun Manor’s Woofs are SCARY). Big Manly-Man immediately throws his girlfriend at the Woofs as a human shield. The couple broke up — officially and permanently — before they exited the Manor.

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  166. TS00: My intention is not so much to condemn Science, as to point out how much of a false authoritarian upholder of unquestionable Creeds it has become; all are commanded to bow to the proclamations of an Einstein or other Science ‘god’, in spite of the many remaining questions that are rarely admitted to the general public. This is an affront to genuine science, which I value highly. We should unblushingly remain Bereans, in Science, Religion and all other pursuits of truth.

    You’ve elucidated an inconvenient truth about ‘science’ and I concur.

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  167. Having moved from a Piper-esque church to a conservative Lutheran church several years ago,I am still amazed to be in a church where I am treated as an adult; where I am welcome to talk theology with our pastor in Sunday School, welcome to read Scriptue out loud or serve during Communion,welcome to serve on or head a church committee. The lifelong Lutherans are, for the most part, completely uninformed on the restrictions placed on women in many churches.In fact they are dumbfounded. This confirms my suspicions that the extreme emphasis on female submission is a peculiarity rather than a well researched conclusion. Not a Sunday goes by that I am not thankful for finding this church. I only regret that we were not there when our kids were young, especially our daughters. There ARE healthy churches!

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  168. Laura Smith,

    I do find it somewhat amusing, if that’s an appropriate term, that the only potentially viable churches left are the ‘godless’, ‘liberal’, mainstream churches we were so warned against in our ‘time in country’ as one Wartsburger puts it. It appears that while evangelicalism was being rushed off into Seekerland, the mainstream denominations were Left Behind.

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  169. Muff Potter: You’ve elucidated an inconvenient truth about ‘science’ and I concur.

    I could go on.
    Let’s just say that ‘Science’ is simply one more neon god the people bow and pray to.
    (with apologies to Paul Simon)

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  170. Laura Smith:
    Having moved from a Piper-esque church to a conservative Lutheran church several years ago,I am still amazed to be in a church where I am treated as an adult; where I am welcome to talk theology with our pastor in Sunday School, welcome to read Scriptue out loud or serve during Communion,welcome to serve on or head a church committee. The lifelong Lutherans are, for the most part, completely uninformed on the restrictions placed on women in many churches.In fact they are dumbfounded. This confirms my suspicions that the extreme emphasis on female submission is a peculiarity rather than a well researched conclusion. Not a Sunday goes by that I am not thankful for finding this church. I only regret that we were not there when our kids were young, especially our daughters. There ARE healthy churches!

    Well, that depends on which Lutheran church one goes to. Where I live, there are three different main Lutheran-ELCA, Missouri Synod, and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran (WELS) with WELS being the most strict-no women pastors/women voting in assembly, ELCA most liberal, and Missouri Synod half way in between allows no women pastors, but women can vote, etc. There are other smaller Lutheran denominations that maybe more or less conservative. I found out that the Lutheran Church I attended until the age of 6 was American Lutheran Church of America which no longer exists as it has joined together with two other Lutheran branches to form the ELCA. I was happy to find out that the American Lutheran Church was the second Lutheran denomination to ordain a woman pastor in 1970 so I accept that as part of my heritage, but I do not belong to the ELCA that has taken it’s place for other reasons.

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