“Did I offer peace today? Did I bring a smile to someone’s face? Did I say words of healing? Did I let go of my anger and resentment? Did I forgive? Did I love? These are the real questions. I must trust that the little bit of love that I sow now will bear many fruits, here in this world and the life to come.” Henri Nouwen link
The arrest of Pastor Harry Thomas is receiving national attention. Time Magazine and other national news sources are covering the situation.
The Creation Festival and the arrest of Pastor Dr. Harry Thomas
This is one more sad story of sexual abuse by a pastor from Pennsylvania. The 74 year old pastor in question was well known for being the pastor his church and the founder of the Creation Festival. According to Christianity Today in Creation Festival Founder Arrested for Alleged Child Molestation:
Harry L. Thomas, founder of the Creation Festival and senior pastor of Come Alive New Testament Church in Medford, New Jersey, has been accused of sexually assaulting four children over a 16-year period between 1999 and 2015.
The Creation Festival is considered America’s largest Christian music festival. According to Wikipedia:
Creation Festival (officially “Creation Festivals”) consists of two annual, four-day Christian music festivals held in the United States, called Creation Northeast and Creation Northwest.[1] According to its organizers, the festivals have become the “Nation’s Largest Christian Music Festival.” [2] Average attendance is between 50,000 and 100,000 annually.[3]
Both four-day festivals host more than sixty Christian rock, contemporary, and worship bands. Also featured are Christian speakers and authors, a fringe stage (hosting mostly up-and-coming and/or harder Christian rock bands), children’s stage (kids’ entertainers geared towards smaller children), Late Nite Cafe, camping, petting zoo, baptisms, communion, fireworks, extreme sports, volleyball, giveaways, candlelight service, prayer tent, youth pastor VIP tent, and other experience-based activities.
…Rev. Dr. Harry Thomas, Jr. and Timothy Landis founded Creation East in 1979 in Muddy Run Park in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.[4] After just five years, the festival outgrew Muddy Run Park and had to change venues. In 1984, the Creation Festival was moved to the Agape Campground in Mount Union, Pennsylvania when the Board of Jesus Ministries offered to rent out the area for the festival. This year was also the first year for a festival wide Communion, which has since become a yearly tradition.
…Though Tim Landis has stepped out of his original role, Rev. Dr. Harry Thomas, Jr. continues to be involved, focusing mainly on expanding the ministry of the festival, but has passed on the majority of the producing and booking to Bill Darpino. Thomas still preaches a short message at Creation every year. In December 2017, Thomas was arrested and charged with sexually assaulting minors in Medford Township over a 16-year period.[7][8]
As an aside, It was interesting to learn that CJ Mahaney spoke a number of times at the Creation Festival and encouraged his church members to attend. In this account, CJ apparently spoke on gossip. CJ really had a thing against gossip and it certainly understandable why that might be.
Come Alive New Testament Church’s website seems to have *gone dead.*
If you visit their website, you will see only a statement about Harry Thomas. The rest of the website is now password protected. Apparently Christianity Today saw the same thing. I think churches who hide everything their church is doing have something to hide. I did not know it was a Christian virtue to scream *Incoming!* and then duck and hide.
Following the arrest, the staff and history pages of Come Alive’s website, which chronicled Thomas’s involvement in the church since its founding in 1983, were no longer accesssible.
The Two Announcements
Look at these two comments and see what they lack.
Creation Festival announcement
Here is a link to Creation 2018 which has posted this message on the home page.
Come Alive New Testament Church announcement link
Thoughts
- He is indefinitely suspended; not fired.
- They do not identify the alleged crime. They should. There could be other victims and it is naive to ignore that.
- Both groups claim that the assaults had nothing to with the church and/or the Creation Festival which is saying “Nothing to see here, folks, move along.”
Why I think there is something odd about Pastor Harry Thomas assault of the unidentified 4 children.
What would you say if I told you that Pastor Harry Thomas defended the parents of a family in the church with 4 kids ages 9-19. EACH of those kids weighed under 50 pounds. He even defended this situation before Congress! I believe this story adds some information about this pastor and his seeming lack of concern for 4 children in his congregation back in 2006.
Church Defends Couple Charged With Starving Four Adopted Children
After a week’s hesitation, the church of the Collingswood couple charged with starving four of their adopted children issued a statement on Friday attacking prosecutors and the state’s child welfare agency, saying they had torn apart a ”totally innocent and loving family.”
…The Rev. Harry Thomas, pastor of the Come Alive New Testament Church in Medford, N.J., which the Jacksons attended, accused the Camden County prosecutor and the New Jersey Division of Youth and Family Services of inflicting the abuse those agencies have accused Mr. and Mrs. Jackson of committing.
”I have never been so outraged in all my 60 years,” Pastor Thomas said in a statement. ”What has been done to this family by the leaks from this prosecutor’s office has caused a totally innocent and loving family to be torn apart.”
…But after interviewing the parents on Friday, the minister declared the Jacksons innocent, accused the prosecutor and the child welfare officials of a rush to judgment, and set up a fund to defend the parents.
In his statement, Pastor Thomas said Mr. Jackson had told him that the children had been given adequate medical attention.
Thomas then testified at a congressional hearing at which he was criticized for trying to downplay the weight of the children. Apparently Pastor Thomas thought that weight was hunky dory. Thankfully, it appears the judge ignored his impassioned pleas and the mother went to jailer seven years and the father died two years later. I wonder what happened to those 4 kids. It isa rather odd coincidence.
Today, I had along talk with a group of folks and a victim of a church leader. We will be writing this story after Christmas. However, my heart hurt badly for the victim after this conversation. Please pray for peace for all who are hurting because church leaders used them. I have played this song at last 10 times today. It is helped.
First???
second
The website has been archived by the “wayback machine”, and may be accessed here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170520190840/http://comealivechurch.com/
Dee–did you note that the wording is exactly the same in both statements, except for the names (boards of Come Alive International and Creation Festival; board of Come Alive New Testament Church)? Outside of that, the wording is exactly the same. It looks like they have the same PR people.
I wonder what happened to those 4 kids. I wonder how God has restrained Himself from destroying the earth.
Wolves in sheep’s clothing shed their disguise at the gates of Hell.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Whoo hoooo
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
I think that Harris ran both groups and probably out of the church. Towards the end, he was the only primary of Creation Festival and the big cheese at the church.Kind of like cJ Mahaney who was the head of SGM, Pastor’s College and CLC.
sandy c wrote:
me, too.
“It is with deep regret and saddened hearts that the Elders and Trustees of Come Alive New Testament Church have indefinitely suspended Pastor Harry Thomas … While the allegations are unrelated to his roles in these ministries, leadership has determined this to be the proper course of action at this time …”
What an odd way to phrase this. All allegations of sexual abuse by a pastor are related to his role as a minister of the gospel of Christ. Regardless of the compartment of one’s life in which such sins are committed, it is a betrayal of trust to those you are called to feed, lead, and protect whether they are members of your church or not.
The child welfare agency took the four boys — from the Jacksons from the Jacksons on Oct. 10 after a neighbor found Bruce, 19 years old but only 4 feet tall and less than 50 pounds, rummaging for food in a neighbor’s garbage can.
“Two weeks later, Mr. and Mrs. Jackson were arrested on charges of child abuse. Mr. Sarubbi called the treatment of the boys ”the most horrible case we have ever encountered in our child abuse unit.”
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2003/11/01/nyregion/church-defends-couple-charged-with-starving-four-adopted-children.html?referer=http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/12/11/well-known-pastor-harry-thomas-arrested-for-sexually-assaulting-4-children/
“According to the minister’s statement, the boys made frequent trips to doctors, but Ms. Jackson said that such trips were rare and that none of the family’s children made regular visits after receiving their baby shots.
However, both the daughter and the father ticked off the schools that Bruce had attended and, they said, had been forced to leave because of his habit of stealing food, gorging on it and throwing up.
The church members have spent the last few days combing church records for photographs showing the boys in everyday activities. The group intends to sell the photographs to the news media to raise money for the parents’ defense. The New York Times did not pay for any of the photographs.”
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2003/11/01/nyregion/church-defends-couple-charged-with-starving-four-adopted-children.html?referer=http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/12/11/well-known-pastor-harry-thomas-arrested-for-sexually-assaulting-4-children/
The pastor had a better storyline than even the parents it seems.
Alec wrote:
Thank you for sending me this link. I will update some info on the church tomorrow. You are awesome!
From the post: “What would you say if I told you that Pastor Harry Thomas defended the parents of a family in the church …”
I would say, “patriarchy” or “hierarchy”, and the little ones at the bottom lose.
What did the complicit perpetrators of the Holocaust say when the curtain was drawn back? “We did as we were told.” Hierarchy. There’s an endgame or reward and a system or method at work.
Means, motive, opportunity. For some folks, church in a nutshell. Maybe that’s why Jesus came down hard on certain religious leaders of His day. They were that evil. And then they did Him in – God’s Son. The Bible doesn’t really spell it out in detail what the religious leaders in Jesus’ day were up to. However, seeing what goes on today when a leader goes awry today, one can only imagine.
Here’s an old article about someone trying to do the right thing. Are they still on track? Hope so.: http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/1987/summer/87l3120.html
dee wrote:
Sometimes the big cheese may stink. Stinky cheese.
Here is an update on the kids in 2010 from a reader on Twitter.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/starved-kids-thrive-6-years-after-abuse/
He was accused of assaulting throughout the time he was standing up for the starved kids parents- and appearing before congress and speaking at every creation fest- looking like Mr Wonderful Gods gift to the church! I will never look at any pastor the same after this. All the wonderful Spirit filled people around him and none of them acted on the nudge in their hearts about him that God surely gave them! When its all about the ‘vision’ the ‘promotion’ the ‘money $$’ i am so sick over this.
“Harry L. Thomas, who preached at Come Alive Church in Medford, allegedly assaulted his victims between 1999 and 2015, according to the Burlington County Prosecutor’s Office.”
http://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/crime/2017/12/07/harry-thomas-come-alive-church-medford-sexual-assault/930563001/
“The prosecutor’s office asked anyone “who may have experienced inappropriate contact” with Thomas to contact investigators.”
“In 2001, Thomas told a Courier-Post reporter that Creation Fest was drawing some 800,000 patrons. The program now has expanded to include festivals in Mount Union, Pennsylvania and Kennewick, Washington.”
“Thomas, a Queens Lane resident, was arrested Wednesday morning, and “is being treated at a medical facility, where he is under guard,” the statement said.”
Thomas is charged with one count of aggravated sexual assault and three counts of sexual assault, the prosecutor’s office said in a statement.
The Medford man also faces four counts of endangering the welfare of minors.
Anyone with information about Thomas’ alleged crimes is asked to call the Prosecutor’s Office Sexual Assault/Child Abuse Unit at (609) 265-5879.
Calls also may be made to Medford police at (609) 654-7511.
@Dee i was wondering if you might put this info in your article so other victims could readily see it
“The prosecutor’s office asked anyone “who may have experienced inappropriate contact” with Thomas to contact investigators.”
Anyone with information about Thomas’ alleged crimes is asked to call the Prosecutor’s Office Sexual Assault/Child Abuse Unit at (609) 265-5879.
Calls also may be made to Medford police at (609) 654-7511.
http://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/crime/2017/12/07/harry-thomas-come-alive-church-medford-sexual-assault/930563001/
JYJames wrote:
I thank God that most of the “I did as I was told” people got sent to prison also and hope its clear to people that even if not in this life they will pay in the next for seeing abuse and doing nothing.
dee wrote:
This truly shows the level of victim blaming they endured when they were freed.
I was just checkin in to see if the pastors supporters had stopped by to say its a satanic attack on his character or if some people were going to say all 8 kids wouldn’t have been abused if they had just repented of their sins…
Maybe tomorrow…
Max wrote:
Christianese Spinspeak.
Think they might have been the same four that got diddled by Pastor Pedo?
Peophilia – Privilege of Celebrity Pastoral Rank.
JYJames wrote:
Sounds like a piper tweet.
May the gavel come down hard and heavy.
JYJames wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There’s got to be a better way to do church than to streamline means and opportunity for these social deviants. Their prevalence in what should be God’s holy and safe place indicates systemic something-or-other. Flawed. What do the miscreants see in God’s beloved fellowship that the rest of us normal people cannot even imagine? It’s ironic and absurd that they show up as perpetrators in church of all places, with some frequency.
dee wrote:
In 2013 one of the boys, Terrell, graduated from High School with honors.
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/A-Decade-After-Abuse-Teen-Graduates-an-Honor-Student-212577851.html
Three of the brothers found a new and far better adoptive family. The fourth being over 18 and therefore out of the foster care system seems to have been institutionalized (supervised care).
BTW Harry Thomas is another of those who uses the title ‘doctor” without apparently earning it the traditional way. His highest degree is apparently a masters in divinity from Eastern Seminary.
@ JYJames:
“What do the miscreants see in God’s beloved fellowship that the rest of us normal people cannot even imagine?”
++++++++++++++++++
perhaps the tendency to turn off intuition, one’s inner voice, common sense, sometimes one’s own thoughts & feelings, in favor of the group mandate of trust. trust us, trust our policies, trust what we say abOut God.
Here is another take on the Jackson family published in the New York Magazine a year or so after the children were removed from their home. Their story is complicated.
“Hell House Revisited
Vanessa and Ray Jackson are being prosecuted for starving their adoptive sons. But the kids may have starved themselves—as the state of New Jersey looked on and did nothing.”
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/10425/
And then there’s this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/starved-kids-thrive-6-years-after-abuse/
“Starved Kids Thrive 6 Years after Abuse”
So sad.
@ NE Schreiber:
Whatever the reason I’m so glad to hear those children are doing much better now. I hope to God that they were not sexually abused on top of their other suffering – no-one could be that evil, could they?
JYJames wrote:
We shouldn’t “do” church – we ARE the church. All these man-made constructs developed down through the centuries – that we mistakenly call “the church” – are a huge part of the problem. They almost inevitably create a bureaucratic atmosphere in which these power hungry sociopaths and narcissists can hide and thrive, sadly.
Well if Mr. Jackson said so…
That story is heartbreaking and maddening. I would have zero respect for this man based on this story alone.
JYJames wrote:
Yes. Nailed it.
Bill wrote:
And everybody shouted AMEN! (or should have)
In our feeble efforts to “do” church in America, we are doing church without God in many places (and iniquity abounds within it). Look around you – the gates of Hell are prevailing against the church we have created, while the true “Church” operates largely outside the confines of institutions. Jesus is coming back for a Church without spot or wrinkle – the organized church is in desperate need of washing and pressing.
@ sandy c:
“When they were with the Jacksons, they did not attend school.”
Stuff like this is why people have been pointing at things like homeschooling as a red flag. Not that homeschoolers are abusive, but that it makes it easier for abusers to hide.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I really dislike the way they word this…it sounds as if all their regret is for Harry Thomas. I would have dropped that bit about ‘saddened hearts’ unless they were going to put it near the allegations, which of course they didn’t discuss.
Lea wrote:
Because it is.
SATAN Hath Taken Down A Mighty Man Of GAWD and all that.
sandy c wrote:
I fell the same way. And no one in his church said a dad blasted thing but continued to call him *Dr* Thomas- He wasn’t a *dr*
Erp wrote:
Great job. Thank you.
Max wrote:
Amen ! Was just reading the Book of Jude this morning (placed in my opinion very nicely right before the Book of Revelation). It has much in it that is relevant to the current discussion.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well, yes. That’s the problem of course.
But merely as a statement, how much better does it read like this:
Also, pray for the parties involved, related to the allegations, which we never mentioned. So.
Sigh.
Bill wrote:
Yes, the warnings in Jude clearly apply to the current state of affairs in the organized church … so many “pastors” are failing!
“There are men who have surreptitiously entered the Church but who have for a long time been heading straight for the condemnation I shall plainly give them. They have no real reverence for God, and they abuse his grace as an opportunity for immorality.” (Jude 1:3-4)
Bill wrote:
Yep, Jude paints a picture of a world – and the church within it – desperately off track. It is the last warning before all Hell breaks loose on the land. A lot of talk about a “cultural moment” taking place in America … we could very well be at a “Jude moment”.
@ dee:
You are most welcome. It’s a pleasure to be able to help.
So appreciate the high quality of the information you provide. This is quite a service to the people of God, wherever we are scattered.
Good work. 🙂
@ Lea:
I’m not comfortable with the stereotyping. In case you haven’t noticed “abusers” are “hiding” everywhere. A physician in Michigan. A dentist in Manhattan. A gas station owner and church deacon in North Carolina who abused a very good friend of mine when he was in the seventh grade. My friend committed suicide a few years ago after many years of struggling. He wasn’t homeschooled.
I don’t think stereotypes such as “homeschoolers” is valid. I know lots of professional people who homeschool. Many aren’t even Christians. Surely you’re aware of the rash of abusers “hiding” as public school teachers.
If you can point me to a study that has data to support your stereotype I would withdraw my criticism.
Steve wrote:
If you read my point, I said it could be a ‘red flag’ not a stereotype. I specifically said ‘not that homeschoolers are abusive’. But these? Clearly were.
It makes it *easier* for people to hide. I don’t know why that is even controversial.
Reverend Dr. Harry L. Thomas Jr. is a 1965 graduate of Houghton College. The college’s website references a magazine feature article, “Living Vision” which discusses the Creation Festival and the work of Dr. Thomas.
The web link to the article does not have the article, it’s missing. Is this an oversight or is it an attempt to distance themselves from Dr. Thomas?
@ Lea:
If homeschooling is a “red flag” then __________
Could you fill in the blank with what your point is?
Steve wrote:
Red flags – If something checks off many of a list of red flags, that might indicate a problem. One often doesn’t, but might if severe enough.
My main point is that it makes things easier to hide, not that all homeschoolers are abusive. Which I repeated for you before and honestly do not think is arguable.
@ Lea:
I honestly do think it is arguable. You are throwing a word into the discussion of a heinous crime that doesn’t belong. Hiding behind the white coat of a physician or the clerical collar of a pastor or the podium of a teacher is easier than hiding behind homeschooling. Yet none of those professions deserve to be scandalized. You are drawing a conclusion that can not be supported with evidence.
Lea wrote:
Well, I do think it is arguable, but if you have some statistics that would help.
http://www.nche.com/stats
That would be one heck of a lot of abusers.
And, yes, we homeschool one of the grandkids. RE and I submitted our credentials and we received permission from the state to do just that.
I do think that two ideas predominate in the homeschool population, however. One is dissatisfaction with the public schools for various reasons, and the other is having a child who is either not thriving or not safe in the public schools. Much the same reasons that people choose private schools.
@ okrapod:
There are, sadly, many types of abuse that are easy to hide in plain site. I do not think a 50 pound 18 year old man is likely one? I feel like that might have stood out at my high school. Heck, my friend got called to the counselors office based on far less.
You may disagree. You truly don’t think it’s *easier* to hide this kind of negligence when you aren’t required to put your kids in public?
This is not a generic anti-homeschooling comment I’m making, but it has apparently been taken that way.
NE Schreiber wrote:
That is a complicated article. One issue with it is that it was an interview with the family and their lawyer. Which would normally be biased for the Jacksons. Another issue i have is that 4 kids with severe mental disorders dont suddenly get ‘healed’ as soon as they are removed from a home. The cbs news link on that page states that in the first 6 months the 14yr old gained 60# the 10yr old gained 30#. Also the oldest gained weight and grew a foot taller!
@ Lea:
But Lea exactly WHAT are you saying about homeschooling? Should it be illegal? Should there be a red flag over every homeschool?
You used homeschooling in the context of criminal abuse and to what end?
Lea wrote:
These kids were ‘in public’ when they went to church. If, however you meant public school, then I will discuss that aspect.
I truly do not think that putting your kids in public school is not what some people think it is. RE teaches special ed; one of the special ed areas consists of kids who are in pretty terrible shape. As far as I have heard nobody is automatically assumed to be an abuser just because a kid is in bad shape. In the article submitted about this situation which is the topic of this conversation on TWW lots of people apparently knew about the kids’ condition (there was no hiding) and still people did not arrive at the conclusion of abuse, including those who were supposed to know and who were disagreeing with the prosecutor.
So, no, I am not suspicious of homeschooling being any red flag for abuse. Of course, abusers can be anywhere, but merely sending a kid to public school does not protect the kid or the out the abuser. That is why I think that what you are saying is arguable.
And because I don’t like red flags planted in my front yard, which is what stereotyping does.
okrapod wrote:
Too many negatives in that sentence. I am trying to say that I do not think that public school is what some people may think that it is.
Lea wrote:
I am getting to the point that i dont want to comment here much because often people make a supreme court case out of my comments, implying i am saying something i wasnt and then when i am extremely clear on my view of an issue i am told i cant say that. It is so different from a week ago when i asked about the women speaking in church/ephesus and learned so much from commenters. I wanted people to see your origonal comment, because it feels like the whole homeschooler issue and Quiverfull issue is forgotten and no one is allowed to say anything anymore about anything- even though your comment makes sense to me and i didnt read any ‘anti-homeschooling’ into it or see that it stereotyped homeschooling at all.
Keeping children out of medical and dental clinics combined with homeschooling and the small closed knit community church of 350 members named ‘come alive new testament church’ who’s pastor is now charged with sexually molesting 4 kids over a 16yr period certainly should have been a red flag on some issue!
Maybe i am cranky with the holidays approaching, maybe because of the non stop sexual abuse coming to light lately, i just hope that we dont just start picking on every comment for no reason except to argue.
Thanks.
“Officials say during the time the four boys were starved, no one came forward, even though they were often seen in public. While child welfare workers visited the boys, in a settlement, the state of New Jersey admitted those workers didn’t protect the children. The state paid the boys $12.5 million, the largest settlement ever involving the Department of Human Services.”
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Child-Abuse-Case-Sparks-Memories-of-Other-Jackson-Family-205464471.html
JYJames wrote:
Good points. I have read a couple of articles saying that pedos actually choose church either for the ease which they are believed, the ease which puts them in authority positions over kids,the ease of ‘repenting and being forgiven’ or when they are found out in the world they join because they know the pastor will support them. One article was an interview of pedos in jail.
Lea wrote:
When i first read their statement i thought they were saying ‘cooperation with authorities was the proper course…for now.’
Steve wrote:
Hahaha, this is a blog, not a courtroom!
I would like to say that since the BCM first post went up I feel (note that i said I feel- my feeling-)
I feel like some calvinista commenters have made it a point to argue incessantly with any point that some women make or just comment. I feel like maybe some men should remember that this is a public blog run by two women and not a church where women arent allowed to speak or *gasp* have opinions and voice them. It is often in (my opinion) done by commenting on things totally irrelevant to the actual abuse and those same commenters never say anything about the horrific abuse of the victims or show any sympathy for them at all, whether its people abused by BCM or by church leaders. I would love to discuss homeschooling and i have had many friends that did it sucessfully but i am not going to in order to help Steve attack someone on this blog.
@ sandy c:
@ Lea:
Hey Lea and Sandy C. No hard feelings. We probably agree on much more than we disagree. I didn’t mean to sound heavy handed or to attack. I apologize for that. I was dead wrong in how I approached the topic. I’m sure we’re all sick of the abuse stories and feel frustrated that we seem powerless to stop it. I certainly consider you both friends and not foe. Let’s press on and fight together.
Much peace to you both,
Steve
This guy also happens to be the pastor of a nondenominational church in Louisville:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/kentucky/articles/2017-12-11/kentucky-lawmaker-accused-of-sexual-assault
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
From the link: “Johnson is the bishop of Heart of Fire ministries in Louisville. The church is known for its “gun choir ,” which features Johnson and others holding guns while singing “Amazing Grace.” Yep, church ain’t what it used to be!
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
My dear wife adds to the comment stream “The church in America is starting to look more like a circus.”
Steve wrote:
You are taking this in the worst light.
I homeschooled for twelve years. But I agree with Lea on this subject. It would be easier to hide all kinds of child abuse when homeschooling your children, if you are so inclined. But also, no, it shouldn’t be outlawed either. I don’t believe any one said it should be illegal.
@ sandy c:
Thanks for sharing, Sandy C.
God bless.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
And a participant in a gun choir? Weird dude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b2fvZk82YI
Ken G wrote:
Where is HUG with a Stalin reference when we need him? As of now, Comrade, he never existed!
“In other words, Lauer suddenly seems not a powerful and sexually dominant man, but a threatened and puny man-child who forces compliance from women to compensate for what he lacks.” TDB Op-Ed by LIZZIE CROCKER 12.02.17
Similarly, those (either gender) who parade Patriarchy or Hierarchy as their god in the church, seem not powerful but threatened and puny adult-children who force compliance from underlings to compensate for what they lack, and in the end, to get what their flesh demands. God warned Israel not to fall into the King trap. And later Jesus had to deal with the religious “kings” of His day; they tried to do Him in, He rose and took His Heavenly place as our Advocate.
Thank God, Jesus died to set us free, the only One to whom we bow.
@ Steve:
what a nice guy!
Thanks, Dee and Deb, for your posts and tweets. Bon courage, as they say.
Au contraire, all the “good church folk” who stand by and say/do nothing about their comrades in the church preying on those less powerful: “Nauseating, chicken-hearted enablers all. I’m not talking about his victims. I’m talking about everyone else who knew and said nothing. Who are still staying silent.” (Anthony Bourdain tweet regarding a predator’s silent witnesses in his celebrity world.)
“Dee Parsons @wartwatch 1h1 hour ago More Dee Parsons Retweeted Odessa Texas Man:
‘Whispers for years. Those who cover up child sex abuse are just as guilty as the pervert. Shame on all of them.'”
Yes.
Creation Northwest is a part of creation fest and was held in 2017 in Kennewick Washington. Pastor Harry Thomas gave a speach at every creationfest. The 2-3 day festivals included a day care area where people could drop off their kids and watch the performers. The Kennewick festival had daycare (kid zone) from 9-12, 1-4 daily. The accused pastor was highly respected and at the festivals and i am concerned that there may be many more victims- even without considering CreationFest International. The list of speakers in Kennewick has a photo of Thomas but no info whatever any longer. Does anyone know if Creation Fest Uk is directly related to Pastor Thomas, Come Alive Church or if Thomas spoke there also? There is a facebook page for Creation Fest Uk but i cant see if its related in anyway to the US CreationFest. Facebook for CreationFest UK= https://m.facebook.com/home.php?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Flogin%2Fdevice-based%2Fpassword%2F&_rdr#!/creationfestuk/?tsid=0.46873819633532&source=result
https://creationfestivalnorthwest2017.sched.com/mobile/#person:pastor_harry_thomas.1waua4mp;speaker
Their statement said the allegations had nothing to do with his work at pastor or creationfest but then why have they deleated every reference to pastor harry on creationfest old schedules? All the 2017 schedules- both northwest and east CFest have pic of him but no byline or other info. If you click on pic of other speakers it pops up with byline and when they are speaking and what venue.
This came up on an online search for pastor harry but when i followed the link his name isnt there:
Creation Festival Northeast 2016: Talk w/Pastor Harry Thomas
View more about this event at Creation Festival Northeast 2016
[Search domain creationfestivalnortheast2016.sched.com] https://creationfestivalnortheast2016.sched.com/event/6dMH/talk-wpastor-harry-thomas
More resu
Just says “TBA 7:50-8:05 am”
Creation Festival Northeast 2016: Communion w/Pastor Harry Thomas
View more about this event at Creation Festival Northeast 2016
[Search domain creationfestivalnortheast2016.sched.com] https://creationfestivalnortheast2016
Click on that it goes to:
https://creationfestivalnortheast2016.sched.com/mobile/#session:ad986d0d0d7d5cd2a2652f3530ffe2c5
“Communion 11:10 p.m.-11:25 p.m. main arena”
The alleged abuse was from 1999-2015 but i doubt a pedo just quit. And i am trying to get record of where he was during the fests because the records and all pastor harry &church info keeps getting erased.
He had or was affiliated with another festival also.
Sonshine Festival 2016: Pastor Harry Thomas & Preston Centuolo
View more about this event at Sonshine Festival 2016
[Search domain sonshinefestival2016.sched.com] https://sonshinefestival2016.sched.co
Link leads to
https://sonshinefestival2016.sched.com/mobile/#session:9f5340963ddff1e0c35f5c21e097050d
“I am blessed and excited to have Troy join with us and our shared vision for festival ministry and evangelism, to see young people challenged in their faith and to know Christ as Lord,” says Thomas.
“I am so excited to become part of the Creation Festivals and its incredible history,” says Duhon. “Our goal is to help improve and expand the festivals by creating multimedia events that include advanced video technology and incredible movies. We will incorporate personal appearances of actors at We want to be at the cutting edge with youth. Our goal will be to evangelize and inspire them to defend their faith like we did in the movie, God’s Not Dead.”
The Creation Festivals, which have been featured in Time Magazine, Fuse, Fox News, VH1, Newsweek and The New York Times, currently consist of Creation Northeast, Creation Northwest, Sonshine Festival and the Ichthus Festival, which will relaunch in 2015. http://gospelmusicupdate.com/creationfest-announces-new-partnership-with-gnd-music-and-gods-not-dead-executive-producer/
I cant get this link to open but am hoping someone with a computer can- did pastor harry dress up as Santa?!!!!
Creation Festival WJTL Harry Thomas Phredd Santa Clause …
FRED MCNAUGHTON – Pastor Harry Thomas is one of my heroes. We tease Harry about looking like Santa Clause. He doesn’t just look the part, though.
[Search domain wjtl.com] https://wjtl.com/pages/tag/creation
KCB Hosts Kids Tent at Creation Northeast June 28-July 1
September 13th, 2016 lisa No comments
Creationfest.com has the complete schedule of events
https://wjtl.com/page/3/?s=creation
“Come Alive Church
Come Alive Church
Non-Denominational / Independent
240 Old Marlton Pike
Medford, NJ 08055
Come Alive Church is a medium-sized church located in Medford, NJ. Our church is Non-Denominational / Independent.
What to Expect at Come Alive Church
Leaders:
Harry Thomas, Senior Pastor
Tim Williams, Marriage and Family Pastor
Martin Bass, Worship Creative Arts Pastor
Dan Martinez, Teaching Pastor
Service Times:
Sunday Service 8:30am
Sunday Service 10:30am
Service Details
Formal and informal attire most common
Blend of traditional and contemporary worship style
Printed worship bulletin
Communion
Altar call or invitation
Location: Burlington County
Ministries and Programs
Children’s ministry
Youth or teen ministry
Weekly small groups
Young adult ministry
Men/women’s ministry
Additional Info About Our Church
We are a wonderful multi-enthnic family oriented church. Our aim is to bring glory to God through lives that are transformed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can expect a great mix of contemporary and traditional worship, practical Bible teaching, and opportunities to connect with people in meaningful and supportive ways. Whatever your background or what stage of life you are in, you are welcome here. Join us this Sunday for inspiring worship, a timely message, and great fellowship. We look forward to seeing you there.
Add or update church information
Google Map to Come Alive Church
240 Old Marlton Pike, Medford NJ 08055
View larger map and directions for worship location
Related Churches
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Non-Denominational / Independent Directory of Churches
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For Further Information
(609) 654-8466
(609) 654-7313
comealivechurch.com
http://www.usachurches.org/church/come-alive-church.htm
Harry is charged with 1 count of aggrevated sexual assault (1st degree) 3 counts of sexual assault (2nd degree) and 4 counts of endangering the welfare of children (2nd degree)
2014 New Jersey Revised Statutes
Title 2C – THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
Section 2C:14-2 – Sexual assault.
Universal Citation: NJ Rev Stat § 2C:14-2 (2014)
2C:14-2 Sexual assault.
2C:14-2. Sexual assault. a. An actor is guilty of aggravated sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances:
(1)The victim is less than 13 years old;
(2)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old; and
(a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the third degree, or
(b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor’s legal, professional, or occupational status, or
(c)The actor is a resource family parent, a guardian, or stands in loco parentis within the household;
(3)The act is committed during the commission, or attempted commission, whether alone or with one or more other persons, of robbery, kidnapping, homicide, aggravated assault on another, burglary, arson or criminal escape;
(4)The actor is armed with a weapon or any object fashioned in such a manner as to lead the victim to reasonably believe it to be a weapon and threatens by word or gesture to use the weapon or object;
(5)The actor is aided or abetted by one or more other persons and the actor uses physical force or coercion;
(6)The actor uses physical force or coercion and severe personal injury is sustained by the victim;
(7)The victim is one whom the actor knew or should have known was physically helpless or incapacitated, intellectually or mentally incapacitated, or had a mental disease or defect which rendered the victim temporarily or permanently incapable of understanding the nature of his conduct, including, but not limited to, being incapable of providing consent.
Aggravated sexual assault is a crime of the first degree.
Except as otherwise provided in subsection d. of this section, a person convicted under paragraph (1) of this subsection shall be sentenced to a specific term of years which shall be fixed by the court and shall be between 25 years and life imprisonment of which the person shall serve 25 years before being eligible for parole, unless a longer term of parole ineligibility is otherwise provided pursuant to this Title.
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2014/title-2c/section-2c-14-2
https://m.facebook.com/burlpros/?__tn__=C-R#!/story.php?story_fbid=1800022113365564&id=523259057708549&fs=5
https://m.facebook.com/burlpros/posts/1800022113365564
“Harry L. Thomas of Queens Lane was charged with 1 count of aggrevated sexual assault (1st degree), 3 counts of sexual assault (2nd degree) 4 counts of endangering the welfare of children (2nd degree) in Burlington County. Medford Township Police Department and Prosecutors Office.
sandy c wrote:
2014 New Jersey Revised Statutes
Title 2C – THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
Section 2C:14-2 – Sexual assault.
Universal Citation: NJ Rev Stat § 2C:14-2 (2014)
2C:14-2 Sexual assault.
2C:14-2. Sexual assault. a. An actor is guilty of aggravated sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances:
(1)The victim is less than 13 years old;
(2)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old; and
(a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the third degree, or
(b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor’s legal, professional, or occupational status, or
(c)The actor is a resource family parent, a guardian, or stands in loco parentis within the household;
(3)The act is committed during the commission, or attempted commission, whether alone or with one or more other persons, of robbery, kidnapping, homicide, aggravated assault on another, burglary, arson or criminal escape;
(4)The actor is armed with a weapon or any object fashioned in such a manner as to lead the victim to reasonably believe it to be a weapon and threatens by word or gesture to use the weapon or object;
(5)The actor is aided or abetted by one or more other persons and the actor uses physical force or coercion;
(6)The actor uses physical force or coercion and severe personal injury is sustained by the victim;
(7)The victim is one whom the actor knew or should have known was physically helpless or incapacitated, intellectually or mentally incapacitated, or had a mental disease or defect which rendered the victim temporarily or permanently incapable of understanding the nature of his conduct, including, but not limited to, being incapable of providing consent.
Aggravated sexual assault is a crime of the first degree.
Except as otherwise provided in subsection d. of this section, a person convicted under paragraph (1) of this subsection shall be sentenced to a specific term of years which shall be fixed by the court and shall be between 25 years and life imprisonment of which the person shall serve 25 years before being eligible for parole, unless a longer term of parole ineligibility is otherwise provided pursuant to this Title.
b.An actor is guilty of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual contact with a victim who is less than 13 years old and the actor is at least four years older than the victim.
c.An actor is guilty of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances:
(1)The actor uses physical force or coercion, but the victim does not sustain severe personal injury;
(2)The victim is on probation or parole, or is detained in a hospital, prison or other institution and the actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor’s legal, professional or occupational status;
(3)The victim is at least 16 but less than 18 years old and:
(a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the third degree; or
(b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power of any nature or in any capacity over the victim; or
(c)The actor is a resource family parent, a guardian, or stands in loco parentis within the household;
(4)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old and the actor is at least four years older than the victim.
Sexual assault is a crime of the second degree.
d.Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection a. of this section, where a defendant is charged with a violation under paragraph (1) of subsection a. of this section, the prosecutor, in consideration of the interests of the victim, may offer a negotiated plea agreement in which the defendant would be sentenced to a specific term of imprisonment of not less than 15 years, during which the defendant shall not be eligible for parole. In such event, the court may accept the negotiated plea agreement and upon such conviction shall impose the term of imprisonment and period of parole ineligibility as provided for in the plea agreement, and may not impose a lesser term of imprisonment or parole or a lesser period of parole ineligibility than that expressly provided in the plea agreement. The Attorney General shall develop guidelines to ensure the uniform exercise of discretion in making determinations regarding a negotiated reduction in the term of imprisonment and period of parole ineligibility set forth in subsection a. of this section.
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2014/title-2c/section-2c-14-2
sandy c wrote:
Really not sure if this is what his charge is- i just entered search for “2nd degree endangering the welfare of children NJ” and this was excerpt of the result-
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2014/title-2c/section-2c-14-2
2014 New Jersey Revised Statutes
Title 2C – THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
Section 2C:24-4 – Endangering welfare of children.
Universal Citation: NJ Rev Stat § 2C:24-4 (2014)
2C:24-4 Endangering welfare of children.
2C:24-4. Endangering Welfare of Children.
a. (1) Any person having a legal duty for the care of a child or who has assumed responsibility for the care of a child who engages in sexual conduct which would impair or debauch the morals of the child is guilty of a crime of the second degree. Any other person who engages in conduct or who causes harm as described in this paragraph to a child is guilty of a crime of the third degree.
(2)Any person having a legal duty for the care of a child or who has assumed responsibility for the care of a child who causes the child harm that would make the child an abused or neglected child as defined in R.S.9:6-1, R.S.9:6-3 and P.L.1974, c.119, s.1 (C.9:6-8.21) is guilty of a crime of the second degree. Any other person who engages in conduct or who causes harm as described in this paragraph to a child is guilty of a crime of the third degree.
b. (1) As used in this subsection:
“Child” means any person under 18 years of age.
……
3)A person commits a crime of the first degree if he causes or permits a child to engage in a prohibited sexual act or in the simulation of such an act if the person knows, has reason to know or intends that the prohibited act may be photographed, filmed, reproduced, or reconstructed in any manner, including on the Internet, or may be part of an exhibition or performance.
(4)A person commits a crime of the second degree if he photographs or films a child in a prohibited sexual act or in the simulation of such an act or who uses any device, including a computer, to reproduce or reconstruct the image of a child in a prohibited sexual act or in the simulation of such an act.
(5) (a) A person commits a crime of the second degree if, by any means, including but not limited to the Internet, he:
(i)knowingly distributes an item depicting the sexual exploitation or abuse of a child;
(ii)knowingly possesses an item depicting the sexual exploitation or abuse of a child with the intent to distribute that item; or
(iii) knowingly stores or maintains an item depicting the sexual exploitation or abuse of a child using a file-sharing program which is designated as available for searching by or copying to one or more other computers.
sandy c wrote:
This really really bothers me! I cant open it but thats the copy of the search for pastor harry thomas and i want to know if he was dressed up as santa perv. to be around kids! Arghhhhhhhh i never liked santa!
Harry Thomas was my pastor in the mid to late 1990’s.
I received the Holy Spirit praying with Harry.
Fortunately, we are innocent until proven guilty in this country.
Harry Thomas is not an evil man.
While I do not condone child abuse, sexual or otherwise, may I suggest we withhold judgement until Pastor Thomas has been afforded due process under law.
Regardless of his eventual ajudicated guilt or innocence, Harry is human, fallible, just like the rest of us.
I pray for him.
I’m the event these allegations prove true, I suggest we consider not only his failings, but also the good he has done.
What would Jesus do?
sandy c wrote:
Both addresses you gave are for a Christian radio station in Pennsylvania. One site gives a lot of stuff about the creation museum, but not a peep about Thomas. The other site is a form for donations to the station.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
He also sings here in the choir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b2fvZk82YI
John S wrote:
Sadly you comment shows why child sex abuse is rampant in the church.
1. No- child sex abuse is just one more sin like every other sin. It is particularly evil and is a life destroyer as we have documented time and time again.
2. Predators use the church and naive people in order to molest others. You were used. He prayed with you so he I really a nice guy, isn’t he? Predators are charismatic and smart. You are living proof of that.
3. Child abuse and child sex abuse is a serious crime. No, it is not the same as getting picked up for speeding. If you use that reasoning, you are doing something that is called sin leveling.
4. Did you read his testimony before Congress? He was laughed out of there. Harry really tried to claim that a 19 year old kid should weigh under 50 pounds. That, in itself, shows that he supports child abuse.
I would suggest that you educate yourself on the matter of child sex abuse and abusers.
John S wrote:
If he is guilty, what about his victims??? Will you pray for them, or are they just collateral damage?
As someone who labored along side of Creation Festivals d’or some 15 years, I walk in faith and reality. Please consider your own dark moments of life before you allow your words of judgment to be cast on another. Does sin separate us from the love of Christ? So pray. . What is happening here, I believe is a very painful family matter. The unbridled revelations of sexual sin in the media has triggered unhealed wounds. As a believer in God and His promises, I pray. And I look to the hope that all believing in Christ can claim; The Lord upholds all those who fall and lifts up all those who are bowed down. Ps145:14 Let is then humble ourselves….
John S wrote:
You have already made your judgement that he is not an evil man, which means that you automatically discredit his accusers and have in fact, judged them.
“What would Jesus do?”
Jesus would, first of all, protect the children. That means that we have to take accusations seriously enough to assure that our kids are protected. We cannot look the other way and wait for an imperfect judicial process before taking appropriate actions and warning others.
Jesus would also rail against our churches in general for not doing enough to protect the most vulnerable.
Jesus would cry over the pain caused to the victims.
Jesus would die on a cross so that the guilty could be forgiven.
Jesus would not say “Let’s wait on the courts and find out what they conclude.”
@ JYJames:
There are ways. It’s called “best practices.” It’s things like windows in every door to every office/classroom (just about every room except the bathroom), policies where no staff member/volunteer is ever alone with a minor, church business is conducted at church, not on “outings” with staff/volunteers, etc. Our elders do home visits to the ill and bereaved in pairs, often with a deaconess. Some people will protest because it assumes that everyone has the potential to be “guilty”, but it also protects staff from folks who may have bad intentions. We had a new pastor come to my church years ago. His first remodeling request was to put windows on all the doors, for which I’ve always been thankful. We also do background checks on all staff and volunteers. I’ve been there 20 years, and nothing bad has happened so far. It still could, but the checks and balances do help.
John S wrote:
Maybe he wasn’t during the mid-late 90’s. People change. Maybe he went sour in 1999. I just dumped some milk down the sink. It was fine Sunday. But its expiration date was Monday.
As for withholding judgement, that’s not what his friends have done. He cares not one whit about our judgement, but must value theirs. And they’re trying with all their might to make him vanish. You think they’d do this if they thought him innocent?
Susan wrote:
Unfortunately, you believe in sin leveling. I want you to know,that in my darkest momentsI never, ever, ever considered having sex with a child which is not only a sin but a serious crime. I bet most normal people don’t. The people who do want do so have a serious mental disorder and it is life long problem.
We can judge actions in the world. the Bible tells us to do so. We cannot judge salvation.
@ dee:
Thanks for the clarification, Dee. The police officer quoted in this article says it’s important to remember that “the tragic incident is a reminder for anyone dealing with young children to keep their cool.
“They look up to their parents and their caretakers for protection and safety, and if you can’t take care of them and you get frustrated then you need to take a step back,” she said.”
The perp that “lost his cool” had drunk a six=pack of beer and a generous amount of tequila, and murdered a toddler by beating him and throwing him into walls/furniture because he wouldn’t go to sleep. That’s just not your normal parent giving a child a spanking. There are much worse sins that leave devastating consequences for all involved.
dee wrote:
Harry Thomas is 74 and during the late 1990’s, about 20 years ago, he was 54. Do you think it is possible that the mental disorder you mentioned could have developed later in life such as around the age of 54? It may now remain as a life long problem, but that doesn’t answer the question, “When did it start?”
Max wrote:
From the stuff that surfaces here and on other watchblogs, it’s worse.
In the words of the prophets Emerson, Lake, and Palmer:
“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS,
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND —
COME INSIDE, COME INSIDE!”
kin wrote:
Should really have crimson speedos, black hooker boots, ponytails and Fu Manchus for choir robes…
“FOR ZARDOZ YOUR GOD GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF THE GUN!”
Dave A A wrote:
dee wrote:
@ John S:
“Harry Thomas is not an evil man.”
+++++++++++++
well, what is evil? horns, a mean look, & smoke coming out of his ears?
hitler? pol pot? stalin? lizzie borden?
i think evil can hide in plain sight, amongst genuine kindness.
Susan wrote:
Susan, It appears to me that you are considering this post as an attack on an individual. If that is not the case, then I don’t understand your admonition. The broader narrative that provides context for this post is that the “Evangelical Bubble” has a rampant problem with abuse. A sub-plot to this is that leadership is so vested in the status quo that the tendency is to protect the accused rather than seek the truth and provide help and compassion to the injured.
@ Susan:
Dave A A: “You think they’d do this if they thought him innocent?”
Susan: “No, sadly I do not.
But just like the milk we can all sour. You and me.
So let’s pray for the families who are taking a direct hit from grief, shame and guilt. And let us also not ever become so seduced by our spiritual success that we give ourselves permission to let the talons of evil gain a foothold.
It is Harry’s Family who had to suspend him.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
i imagine we are in agreement with you, here. Are you advocating against discussing this situation in plain terms?
@ FW Rez:
Well I appreciate your kinder response to my post.
May I explain; I grieve and mourn Harry’s fall-indeed today’s N.J. com indicates the complicity of Harry . I appreciate that this forum exists to speak my pain but in doing so remember, there is a log in my eye and my words must be seasoned and useful to the hearer so it may glorify God. I read from other posts righteous indignation and abhorrrence to the evil acts of abuse but even more so great judgment on Harry’s life. In hindsight it certainly explains that his very public reaction to the Jackson tragedy was guided by a conscience going amiss. I suppose that when evil enters the human heart and foments in people we know as co laborers, the complete condemnation of the Evangelical Bubble includes all who claim the name of Jesus. Me too. We are all the Body. I only desire that we who are faithful do so as would please our Father, to the glory of Christ.
Please accept my apology if my expression of sadness was received in any other vein.
@ Susan:
What is most upsetting to me is when people, such as yourself, show up with much crying and concern over the alleged abuser and the wonderful life he seemed to have lived in your sight, but you say nothing about or offer no prayers for the victims in this situation.
@ Susan:
“I only desire that we who are faithful do so as would please our Father, to the glory of Christ.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
we all desire this. i don’t see how being plain-spoken negates this.
some pockets of christian culture are heavy on the sweet & flowery language — i don’t believe it’s necessarily any more godly than being direct without mincing words. just a different way of communicating.
@ Bridget:
Yes, yes, yes. And in a tone of hand wringing religiosity, but mentioning no love for the children.
Beakerj wrote:
In thick Christianese, including a chapter-and-verse SCRIPTURE Zip Code.
___
“Beyond A Reasonable Shadow Of Doubt, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
“Being a light does not mean we simply expose what is wrong; being a light is to live out justice and redemption…” -Isa Torres
Where as,
TWW SOP: TWW does not construct Black Collar accusations of guilt…
Where as,
TWW SOP: Black collars accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty,
Where as,
TWW SOP: The victims in each case must be given due consideration and adequate precedence.
🙁
– –
Max wrote:
http://www.wdrb.com/story/37062873/kentucky-state-rep-dan-johnson-commits-suicide-on-bridge-in-mt-washington
@ Susan:
Would you say the same thing if your child was one of those who are accusing HT of abuse???
I am not saying that HT is guilty, but he has been arrested, charged with several counts, and is still in police custody. So, there must be some evidence. If he is guilty, he is more than likely just another wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Linn wrote:
Thanks for sharing.
Well, the victims are family and children and yes Harry is guilty. And It is as painful as if they were my own.
Your comments are your right despite their misguided conclusions as it concerns my motives. So, thank you for your responses and may you attain the goal you seek. Beakerj wrote:
sandy c wrote:
Really. It’s not going to be a flood this time – it’s going to be fire…
And you sound angry with probably some good reason….so sorryHeadless Unicorn Guy wrote:
sandy c wrote:
For someone who is getting to the point of not wanting to comment much…You comment here a lot, a real lot, in fact, very much, 4-5 big comments in a row so you really shouldn’t be surprised to get some pushback. It will happen. I try to be very careful with comments, but still manage to trip some people’s triggers – there are some real hair-triggered folks around here, some that seem to go out of their way to be offended. When that happens, I just go away for a couple of weeks, because there is nothing you can do about it.
Or maybe just slow down on commenting a touch, and think it through a bit more…
@ roebuck:
Sandy C, your last fusillade of posts ran to 15 consecutive comments. Slow down! Give people a chance to process what you’re trying to say. If you are interested in real communication and sharing, for God’s sake, slow down!
elastigirl wrote:
And man-o’-Manischewitz are they adept at couching cruelty in kindness. Reminds me of my Calvary Chapel days when the old cruel fiction of the shepherd breaking a wayward sheep’s leg for its own good was taught as ‘gospel’.
Muff Potter wrote:
‘The very best there is
is Manischewitz’es
Man oh Manischewitz what a wine’
(That was their jingle in the 60’s}
Steve wrote:
I’m sorry I don’t have a link for you (I guess I can go google for it later)…
But over a year ago, I read a story (well, more than one, so I may be getting these mixed up) about abuse taking place in two different families who home schooled their kids.
In at least one of these families, the article went on about how authorities didn’t know the family were abusing their kid(s) for a long time in large part because they were home-schooled, and the parents weren’t extroverts who left home much.
(I do not remember how the cops and child services finally found out about the abuse.)
The article was making the point (or did they quote someone on this?… I can’t remember off hand) that had those kids been in public schools, the teachers or other adult on staff likely would’ve noticed the kids were under-fed, scrawny, dirty, sickly, and/or the kids could’ve told them about the abuse.
(I think in one of these stories, the kids were also being physically abused by one or both parents, or by fellow siblings).
If you are a parent prone to abuse your child, would it be more difficult to hide the abuse from other adults if you kept the child home every day or sent them off to school five days a week, where they will be seen by teachers and lunch ladies wearing their hair nets in the serving line?
@ Daisy:
@ Steve
By the way, Julie Anne may have a link to that news story I am thinking of. I think she shared it on social media or her blog a long time ago.
I couldn’t off hand find the same exact news stories I was thinking of, but here’s this.
Are abusive parents hiding behind Iowa’s home-school laws?
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/investigations/readers-watchdog/2017/01/21/weak-home-school-laws-can-make-children-targets-abuse-experts-say/96551352/
Snippets:
Sen. Matt McCoy said the children were the subject of numerous reports of child abuse for years, mostly by school officials.
“But once they fell off the school radar, they lost them,” McCoy said.
School officials were told “Natalie was on a self-study course with her parents, and she did not need to report to school. Her sister and brother were also on that track,” McCoy said.
Iowa does not require checks on home-schooled children. But some child-welfare experts and advocates, including a national nonprofit that advocates for home-schooled children, say those who abuse or exploit children have used home schooling as a ruse to keep at bay officials obligated to report abuse.
…From 2000 to last year, the Coalition for Responsible Home Education, based outside Chicago, identified at least 320 home-schooled children who had been severely neglected and abused. Of those, 116 had died.
…While home schooling works well for as many as 2 million children nationally, abusers can use it to isolate children, according to Dr. Barbara Knox, medical director of the University of Wisconsin Child Protection Program in Madison, Wis., which serves eastern Iowa.
Steve wrote:
Abuse in Homeschooling Environments, via “Coalition for Responsible Homeschooling”
https://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/policy-issues/abuse-and-neglect/abuse-in-homeschooling-environments/
That was just after a quick Google search on this subject.
You could probably find more links about it.
Lea wrote:
I’m with you on this, Lea.
It’s _common sense_ that child abuse is much easier to hide if the parent never lets the kid out and about around other people. No stats required on that.
You even added a qualifier that you were not suggesting that -ALL- homeschooling families are abusive.
Maybe you should add that Hash thing, as in,
#NotAllHomeschoolers
to make it plain as day. 🙂
Steve wrote:
That wasn’t what she was saying, Steve, no. I got her point just fine.
Bridget wrote:
I don’t think it should be illegal, either.
The other end of the argument is that, from what I’ve seen on TV news that other nations, is that governments automatically seem to feel that all homeschooling (especially by Christian families) is cultic (even if it’s not and there’s no abuse), so the kids are removed from the parents.
“German home-school families face US deportation”
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-24804804
Susan wrote:
The talons of evil?
Susan wrote:
Yet in your first post on this thread you wrote this:
Are you implying that Dee molested or starved children?
What in your view are Dee’s “dark moments”?
It sure sounds to me as though you are arguing along the lines of “but we’re all sinners, so it’s not fair, loving, or just to comment on this pastor’s alleged molesting of children.”
I’ve never molested any kids, Susan, nor would I even consider it.
Among some of my “darkest moments” in life consist of doing things like driving 55 to 60 m.p.h. in a 45 on the way to one of my old jobs.
So, because I speeded a few times on the way to work, I can’t look at these news reports of this molesting kids and think something like, “Oh, awful, and gross! I’m so glad the authorities caught him and he can’t do this to anymore kids, or receive justice for the ones he’s already exploited.”
Does someone have to be as pure and sinless as the Lord Jesus himself before they’re allowed to draw conclusions or make observations about these types of stories that appear in the press?
How was your first comment, mentioning “dark moments” and so on not sin leveling?
Sorry for my several posts in a row, but I sometimes am on here late at night when I appear to be the only one still up and awake. 🙂
@ Susan:
Susan
A world of evil is done under the validating power of religious titles. Titles shield people from criticism, skepticism, and accountability. They earn respect and validation from people with similar titles. Evil men exploit them to profane the role they represent. They replace what is Holy and beneficial with what is abusive and complicit.
Titles are powerful, but it’s complicit participation that multiplies the pain. In such systems, few are brave enough to say the emperor has no clothes. Those that do aren’t encouraged in their gift of discernment. There is no place for them amongst the complicit followers of men with titles.
John Cougar Mellencamp sang “Hey calling it your job ol hoss sure dont make it right, but if you want me to Ill say a prayer for your soul tonight.” There are many people with titles who do great works in His name, but don’t know him. It seems to me that the real shepherds are those who have the courage to warn people about the wolves.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
It says its the 2nd time republicans have asked him to resign. Is he still in office? This is horrible.
JYJames wrote:
Amen!
sandy c wrote:
Not anymore: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/13/kentucky-state-rep-dan-johnson-commits-suicide-after-sexual-assault-accusations-emerge-officials-say.html
Muff Potter wrote:
That was really widespread! It was fiction?
John S wrote:
********
I believe if Pastor Harry has done these things what Jesus would do is call him to repentance privately and if Pastor didnt respond to that, Jesus would bring it to the light publicly so that he would be more apt to truly repent and his victims would have justice. True repentance would be admitting guilt, showing concern for victims, and a willingness to suffer whatever consequenses his actions deserved, including jail and treatment and not being alone with children ever.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
I read both those stories earlier today. Reminds me of the Campbell story.
Praying for his family.
dee wrote:
And there is this^ which absolutely shows a disregard for the welfare of children! These kids were in his church and as pastor he didn’t insist that a) if they had mental disorders they be taken to psychiatric help. And b) that they see a dr regularly. And c) that they be taken to a dentist.
Daisy wrote:
You have company, I’m here, too. I always thought that public education is important because children interact with other children in a school setting which enables them to develop social skills. Doesn’t homeschooling deprive children of such interaction which I think would arrest the normal development of social skills?
FW Rez wrote:
Jesus who hears the cries of the abused and reveals the hidden things so that they can be set free.
Thank you for reminding me how wonderful my Lord really is. The Lion and the Lamb. He comforts and forgives but sometimes He ROARS!
Linn wrote:
hear! hear!
Susan wrote:
Because the police arrested him and its hard to preach from jail? You have not shown the slightest concern for either the 4 victims of starvation in your church nor the 4 victims of sexual assault! And you wonder that people judge you? Just by what does and does not come out of your mouth, you are showing your heart in this matter.
Susan wrote:
Please show some action instead of words. You stated that you were involved in the festivals have you sent letters to all the attendees to alert them to this and instructed them to talk to their children in case they were also assaulted?? Or are you going to be judged by God for knowing and doing nothing but defend this pastor?
Susan wrote:
Actually again i have to speak to your lack of concern for the victims since the police were trying to not disclose who the victims are for their sake. This blog has always been about protecting victims of abuse.
roebuck wrote:
Thanks your right
@ Susan:
I would like to apoligize Susan. I read your first two comments and replied harshly and i should have read all the comments. I assumed you were another “pastor can do no wrong” person, and you obviously arent but even if you had been i was rude and i ask forgiveness for it.
Ken G wrote:
Ken
I think your point about socialization is an important one and indirectly supports what Sandy C is saying. People homeschool for a variety of reasons and many do it successfully with respect to socialization. I choose to send my daughter to public school and teach her to get along but stand alone if necessary. I pray that I am doing the right thing.
I think the point Sandy was trying to make is that some people who homeschool do so as part of their participation in cultish groups where healthy socialization tends to weaken the influence of authoritarian toxic leaders. These toxic environments are a breeding ground for abuse which becomes normalized and hidden in isolation. These environments seem to put parents under a great deal of pressure to keep their kids in line with regard to group behavioral norms. I’ve seen the destruction caused when schooling ch choices are made based on the influence of cultish leaders.
I realize that public schools sometimes have their own formal or informal, unhealthy socialization environments as well. In the case of this pastor and this family, Sandy and Ken’s comments are very appropriate. These children were likely part of a toxic environment where homeschooling was used as a means of isolation and reinforcement of group norms.
@ roebuck:
Just a gentle reminder. Dee, Deb, and I and only us set and administer the comment policy here. If anyone feels someone has crossed a line contact us and we will decide if any action needs to be taken. Don’t discuss it in more comments.
You can reach us via the Contacting US menu at the top of each page.
John S wrote:
I dunno, maybe toss him into the sea with a millstone around his neck? Kinda like He, y’know, said would happen to men like that.
No, Thomas’ guilt hasn’t been established by the law yet. But at the very least his foolishness has been established by his own public words. And if he is guilty of sexual abuse, I can’t see that Jesus would be any more lenient than the law regarding harm done to the little ones.
Susan wrote:
I understand the “No, sadly I do not.” although I had hoped to hear from John S. The rest of your comment I find perplexing. Care to elaborate?
John S wrote:
Jesus would protect the children. He would protect the vulnerable. He would (and did) say that it’s better for a child molester to drown in the sea with a millstone round his neck. And one day, Jesus is coming back on a while horse, with a sword in His hand, to put an end to evil. He will ride out of heaven as a warrior, and the blood will run deep with all the executions He performs in order to rid the world of unrepentant evil.
So yes, pray. Pray for mercy and true repentance from those who would harm others, especially children. And pray for the children, that God would heal them from the unspeakable harm that people do. Trouble is, when it’s done to them in the name of God, that’s who they think God is.
Susan wrote:
Yes, and part of humbling ourselves means that we allow light to shine in the darkness. We allow truth to be spoken. More than that, we encourage it, even when it means that someone we love, or we ourselves, ends up in a difficult situation because our sin is now revealed. Humility doesn’t mean we don’t look into allegations of child abuse because “we’re all sinners”. Don’t you think the victims are also “bowed down” by the weight of what happened to them, and need lifting up?
We take the plank out of our own eye first, of course. But that doesn’t mean that we then do nothing for our brother. We take out the plank from our own eye SO THAT WE CAN SEE to take the speck out of his. We are supposed to help each other in this way. If this pastor has done what he’s accused of – and certainly some of his support for child abuse is public record – then he needs help. If he is repentant he should want that help, because how can a God-fearing man ever justify wanting to treat children like this?
Daisy wrote:
I got the point just fine, too. And I agree. Mainly because I’ve seen it. I homeschooled my two kids until 2nd grade, and I saw just how easy it was to hide anything you liked from the authorities. People were really suspicious of any kind of interference, so there was a real distancing from any kind of oversight. Which is fine if you are a good person with good intentions, but it makes it super easy for a badly intentioned person to take advantage of children in any way they want.
Susan wrote:
In my experience, “I Will Pray For You” is Christianese for doing NOTHING while feeling very Pious about it.
Other than that, the above statement also REEKS of Thick Christianese.
Liz wrote:
There was a watchblog site named “Homeschoolers Anonymous” that had a LOT of horror-story testimonies from those who came out of abusive homeschooling.
Muff Potter wrote:
Yet another peek into the Mini-Moses’ own desires and wish-fulfillment.
Susan wrote:
Standard blame-shift Gaslighting.
AKA “You’re the One With The Problem!” oozing Concern and Compassion worthy of a Master Manipulator.
So if the whole church is shut down (their entire website is down & services were cancelled) because something happened to the pastor, was it much of a church? I looked at the wayback link, there was an assistant pastor & several elders, couldn’t any of them step in? Did the early church fall apart when Paul went to jail?
___
Refreshed: “this lit’l light O’mine…”
hmmm…
@ HUG,
HowDee,
Broadening our prayer experiences (i.e. talking continually with God Almighty) is the first, best and lasting effort anyone can do for themselves and others as well.(1)
hum, hum, hum…just a whisper to Him in the darkness…
and the light will come.
ATB
Sòpy
___
(1) https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/prayer-bible-verses/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-x1lEPeV6Y
😉
– –
___
“For Our Children Sake?”
hmmm…
Black collar crime will continue. (1)
So what else is new?
🙁
SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Question is: —-> what safeguards need to be installed and upheld for 501(c)3 church crime prevention & de-escalation of the climate of abuse thereof?
Profanity aside…the writing is surely on the wall…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mo6LRLWUMwU
(sadface)
Sòpy
—
(1) Speed Dial: “The Black Collar Crime Series…“
https://brucegerencser.net/tag/black-collar-crime/
🙁
– –
@ sandy c:
Amen. Whether guilt is there or not, obviously children are involved and they need our prayers and protection. Pray that the justice system does its job the way it should and pray for redemption of the guilty….at the same time making sure there will be no further victims. Sad day, The CHurch as a whole needs to do more!
Priscilla wrote:
Or just another Personality Cult?
Personality Cults don’t usually outlive their founder by long.
(Sometimes deliberately, as in the case of Heaven’s Gate/the Bo-Peepers.)