The Little Blog That Roared.* The Controversy at First Baptist Church, Sapulpa, OK

"General Snippet: I warn you, madam – I know the entire Geneva Convention by heart! 
Grand Duchess Gloriana: Oh, how nice! You must recite it for me some evening; I play the harpsichord."
 The Mouse that Roared link

* This post is about a group of fine folks who wanted to get the truth to the members of First Baptist Church in Sapulpa OK. They started a blog called The Sapulpa Messenger. We heard from some of those who contribute to the blog.

Their story reminded me of one of my favorite books, The Mouse That RoaredIf you haven't read it, you must. It will make you smile and think at the same time.

The story starts with a new pastor enamored of church discipline a la 9Marks.

This story began when a new pastor is called to lead FBC. Smokey Hurst seemed like he would be a good fit for this congregation that would not have defined themselves as a Reformed congregation. Before Smokey came, most would not have recognized a reference to 9Marks. However, this was a group of people that were deeply committed to the church and to their faith.

According to the church website:

Smokey had the privilege of playing in two national championship games, three Big XII championship games, and a total of five bowl games while at OU. But, his greatest contribution was the spiritual leadership he gave to the team. Coach Stoops asked if he would remain on the team another year because of the influence he had with the players. He graduated in the fall of 2003 with a Bachelor of Science in Environmental Design and had minors in History, Geography, and Business. Smokey and Meagan were married in the spring of 2003. After graduation, Smokey began his own landscaping company. Starting with one employee, his business grew to 25 employees in four years. At the height of his business, God called Smokey to walk away from it all and go into full-time ministry, so he sold everything he could and moved his family to Fort Worth for seminary in the fall of 2008. Smokey received his MDiv degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth in 2011. 

As you may know, Oklahoma is a big football state and it appeared that Smokey, a former OU football player, would fit right in. Dany Daniel served as an interim pastor until Smokey arrived. Daniel was very supportive of all that Smokey wanted to accomplish at the church.

And so it began. You will swear you are reading a Calvinista playbook. 

Elders/Deacons-what's the difference?

The church was led by deacons which is common in many non-Reformed Baptist churches. Smokey was allegedly determined to change the way the church was run. He wanted to disband the deacons and install elders, emphasizing elder rule. This idea was not well received by the church members. So, according to our sources, the deacons kept their name but, in truth, function as elders.

One former pastor was allegedly fired by Smokey.

This is a church of approximately 500 members. It reportedly has a full time pastoral staff of 6 and one part time pastor. This does not include the office staff. I belong to a thriving church of 600 which makes itself do with two excellent pastors.

The pastor who was fired was well liked by the senior adults in the congregation. Smokey was asked why he fired him. He allegedly told a female member that he was firing him because he was "sinning, lying and stealing." When confronted by others in the church to provide proof of these allegations, he claimed he never said anything of the sort. The woman was quite upset that he denied what he had originally said and made sure that church members were aware of it.

The church constitution and bylaws were slated to be changed and a membership covenant was to be introduced.

The changes seemed to indicate that the church would become discipline oriented. A link to 9Marks was added to their resource page. These actions reportedly cause a number of members to become concerned. When the bylaws did not change immediately, Smokey decided to interpret them in a way that gave him more authority in the church.

The Sapulpa Messenger was born! Let this be an example to other people dealing with these problems in churches.

FBC had some members who  began to do some research on these changes and found that these actions were becoming common within many churches. They decided to educate the people in the church by starting a blog. 

The names of these folks shall remain anonymous since they are concerned about backlash from their new rulers in chief who do not know who is writing this great little blog. Here is how they describe themselves.

We are the handshake greeting you at the church door. We are the faces in the choir. We are your friends in Sunday School. We are the ones who make room for you in the pew.  We are the young.  We are the seasoned.  We are the men and women who built the church, have defended it in the past, and will do so again.  We understand that many Godly men and women have been deceived by a small group of domineering power brokers.  Many have been fooled into drawing battle lines against their brothers and sisters in the name of “unity”.

Many of the people in this congregation are still unaware of the mean spirited and diabolical schemes that have been launched behind the scenes against them.  Our readers know the truth.  Those that have taken the time to investigate our claims and check out the facts realizes how close this church is to the edge.  We have defended you against abusive church discipline, against legalistic contracts, against joining abortion friendly groups, against Calvinist control techniques, and against lawsuits.

We are convinced that eyes will be opened and the congregation will rise and set all things right if we can just get this information into the hands of our friends. It is our prayer that many of our faithful leaders and servants who have rescued this church in years gone by will recognize the challenges we face, though cloaked in secrecy, and stand beside us.

Friends, we need you to do your due diligence and test what we say.  They say “it’s all lies”.  All we ask is that you check it out for yourself.

Here is their main page salvo. I wish I had their expertise! Well done, folks!  Shortly after this video was posted, the 9Marks link was removed from the church's resource page. It appears that the pastor is really into young earth creationism as well.

The password is only given to those with a need to know.

This groups is not out for revenge. They have been trying to keep this as an in-house matter. However, things began to change when they were threatened by a lawsuit. If you wish the password, you will need to contact the blog and give them a reason to let you have access to it. I do have the password and I am sharing things that are covered on those protected pages.

Things continued on a downward spiral.

  • The pastor reportedly would not allow the fired pastor, who allegedly claimed he was railroaded, to speak at the meeting in which his severance was discussed. The leaders allegedly voted against a severance package for the fired pastor which went against the wishes of the congregation.
  • A secret bonus was allegedly given to Dany Daniel, the right hand man of Smokey, without the approval of the members.
  • Smokey was allegedly upset when someone in the congregation spoke out at a meeting and asked the pastor to use Roberts Rules of Order as discussed in the bylaws. 

What happened to a long time member of the church who was concerned about the secret bonus paid to Dany Daniel?

Here is the story as reported to TWW.

She was the one who discovered the secret bonus money.  She said when she found out that Dany lied to the church about receiving the money she had plans on making a motion at the next business meeting to expose and correct it.  She was open about this and the pastors found out.  She says Dany and 2 other pastors told her to quit talking about it and drop the issue.  She did not stop.  Dany and two deacons then came to her house and told her she'd been asked to stop and didn't stop. They handed her a paper that documented all the times shed been asked to shut up. It was an itemized list of the Matthew 18 steps. 

Thankfully, this woman did not back down. She took it to the business meeting anyway! What a smart, brave woman! 

A lawsuit was threatened over the blog's post on porn-related, third-party aggregate kickbacks to a well-loved supporter of Smokey but the blog prevails.

The typical ploy of "I'm going to sue you" was tried on The Sapulpa Messenger when the blog posted that a church member, who was supportive of Smokey, was getting money, indirectly. from porn sites. Here are the allegations. 

There is a businessman in town who reportedly owns a Christian radio station. He reportedly also owns (either in full or part) a radio station in  New York. The Sapulpa Messenger reported that the owners of the radio station gets kick backs (all legal) from third party aggregators if people go that station's website and clicks on their business links.The following should be considered graphic and is only posted in order to show our audience the nature of the porn sites.

GRAPHIC TRIGGER WARNING FOR NEXT PICTURE ONLY


End graphic warning.


In the meantime, an announcement is allegedly made in church that this businessman was going to sue the blog. How silly! The law in this regard is pretty clear. One has to prove that the person knowingly and deliberately lied in order to bring harm to another person. This picture does not lie. It appears that the businessman thought better of his proposed actions and decided to ditch the lawsuit as well as the third party aggregations.

Atta way to go Sapulpa Messenger! Thank you for cleaning things up

Then there is the story about a man and woman, long time church members, allegedly getting perp walked out of an Awana meeting!

Members who knew about this situation reported it to me. It is alleged  that this couple, both members, had worked for a long time leading the Awana club. For those of you who are in the know, it is sometimes hard to get dedicated, good leaders and they were reportedly excellent role models.

Apparently the husband got under Smokey's skin at a church meeting in which he reportedly asked that proper procedures for meetings be used as defined in their bylaws. Smokey allegedly thought his authority was being questioned. 

One night, during the Awana meeting which this couple was leading, the meeting was interrupted by an off duty policeman. The couple were asked to meet with him outside immediately. They were informed by this officer (who is a church member) that they would not be allowed to return to the class due their questioning of the pastor's authority. They were also allegedly told that they would no longer be allowed to serve in any leadership capacity in the church. However, Smokey stopped short of throwing them out of the church.

When the woman asked why she was being thrown out of the class, she was allegedly told that her husband was the head of the household so she had bear the punishment as well.

Things for current members of FBC to consider

I wish I could show you all the posts written by The Sapulpa Messenger. They have been writing since 2015 and they have covered everything from the history of Calvinism to current day events such as Karen Hinkley and The Village Church. Let me leave this post with some recommendations for the members of FBC.

  • Never, ever sign a church covenant unless you know you are signing a legal document and have no trouble doing so.
  • Ask the pastor and his side kicks what they plan to discipline. As of right now, they seem to discipline members for asking questions as opposed to serious things like affairs, embezzlement, etc.
  • Make sure you understand what 9Marks discipline is all about. 
  • Do you believe that God has already chosen the elect and there is nothing you can do about it? That is what Calvinists believe.
  • Did your pastors tell you not to read The Salpulpa Messenger? Ask yourself why. Are they afraid you might learn something they don't want you to know? Do they not think you are adults and can decide for yourself what is true and what isn't?
  • Do you know that many Calvinists believe that they should not tell prospective churches that they are Calvinist because they might not get hired? Did you know some of them actually do not tell the truth on this matter? Why?
  • Why did your church leadership remove the link to the 9Marks website?
  • Read The Sapulpa Messenger. They are doing an incredible job of informing the church about what is really going on.

TWW will keep the folks of The Sapulpa Messenger in its thoughts and prayers. We would love to do a follow up on many other issues that we did not have time to address here. Well done!

Finally, for those from 9Marks who read this post, this is just one more 9Marks fail. The system is broken.

Comments

The Little Blog That Roared.* The Controversy at First Baptist Church, Sapulpa, OK — 387 Comments

  1. Whew! The only thing worse than a YRR pastor is a Football Jock YRR pastor! The arrogance of these young whippersnappers continues to amaze me. Nothing in this report about the pastor’s behavior is Christlike.

  2. “The pastor reportedly would not allow the fired pastor, who allegedly claimed he was railroaded, to speak at the meeting in which his severance was discussed.”
    One of several similarities, on a smaller scale, to the late great Mars Hill.

  3. “The church constitution and bylaws were slated to be changed”
    Another move out of the Driscoll playback.

  4. We have defended you against abusive church discipline, against legalistic contracts, against joining abortion friendly groups, against Calvinist control techniques, and against lawsuits

    How did “joining abortion friendly groups” fit into all this?

  5. You know if folks were just up front and let the rule of law bylaws give people due process there would be much less strife. Also, congragational leadership under a good set of deacons can be really powerful. It can really help a good pastor be a great leader/servant. PS chucking the covenant oaths for a good set of procedures for church discipline and maybe a time oriented congregational vote for membership. There are some great examples of bylaws online I think even some links are listed here. Also, accounting best practices is also a gift from God, lots of examples online for that too.

  6. Great news story, and great job presenting it dee!
    It is my fervent hope that more and more churches will get wise to calvinista takeover tactics and stop them dead in their tracks.
    Hoorah for the little blog that roared!

  7. Since the open discussion thread is not currently running, I thought I’d post this here.

    I’ve been a longtime reader of this blog and a lot of the topics and discussions here have made an impact on me. I’m currently writing and recording a 4-part concept album of music about the current state of Christianity in America (as well as the broader social/cultural/political environment).

    In case you’re interested, you can check out my band’s Facebook page. (It’s a one-man band at the moment, although I would like to expand at some point).

    https://www.facebook.com/Mini-Apples-213452142488303/

    There aren’t any demos to listen to yet, but there will be soon. In the meantime I’ve been uploading a lot of memes I’ve made.

    I’ve even coined a new term, “Freezer” to refer to Christians with an ultra-conservative, hyperintellectual, or hyper-Calvinist mindset (or to secular elite conservatives who view Christians as useful idiots).

    It’s a pretty effective epithet, especially when accompanied by pictures of the DCAU villain, Mr. Freeze.

  8. srs wrote:

    How did “joining abortion friendly groups” fit into all this?

    This kind of raised an eyebrow with me as well. Seems a bit of a non sequitur.

  9. FWIW, you might want to know that the “graphic” picture is the one that shows up in feedly for this post 🙁

  10. Dang! That is truly messed up. Too much power too early for this dude…

    Bon Sorge in his book on Job writes about the danger of leaders who have not experienced real failure or suffering leading. This seems like an example of that. He is running over the sheep, not tending them.

  11. “The password is only given to those with a need to know.

    This groups is not out for revenge. They have been trying to keep this as an in-house matter. However, things began to change when they were threatened by a lawsuit. If you wish the password, you will need to contact the blog and give them a reason to let you have access to it. I do have the password and I am sharing things that are covered on those protected pages.” – Dee

    I would recommend that the group contacts a good constitutional attorney for advice,
    a free speech attorney, or a similar group that supports free speech.

    Oklahoma, the state where this is taking place, passed a tough Anti-SLAPP [Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation Law] so that people can exercise their free speech rights without being worried about getting sued.

    https://anti-slapp.org/oklahoma/

  12. “One night, during the Awana meeting which this couple was leading, the meeting was interrupted by an off duty policeman. The couple were asked to meet with him outside immediately. They were informed by this officer (who is a church member) that they would not be allowed to return to the class due their questioning of the pastor’s authority. They were also allegedly told that they would no longer be allowed to serve in any leadership capacity in the church.” – Dee

    OK, find out where this cop works and file a complaint with his police department’s Internal Affairs division.

    In law enforcement there is a saying about (personal) integrity, “You lie, you die.”
    Obviously this police officer is way, way over the line and his Internal Affairs department probably has no idea how he is tarnishing law enforcement.

    When two off-duty police officers at my ex-gulag (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley,
    a 9 Marxists, John MacArthur-ite, NeoCalvinist) pulled that stunt with me, I turned around and turned them into their Internal Affairs’ departments. And they both shut up and never bothered me again. One had the temerity to send me an email to say that I was “harassing” him, when I’d never even contacted him! I told his Internal Affairs Department that and gave them a copy of the email.

    The church’s pastors/elders were *hurt* that a I wouldn’t use hate speech against protected classes of persons in my state, which is a FIRING offense at my job in California.

  13. cult-formation depends on being surrounded by people who don’t question ‘leadership’

    so it does not surprise that 9 Marks ‘disciplines’ the heck out of those that question ‘authority’

    imagine brave people who love their Church taking down one of these pompous tyrants simply by the clicking of a mouse 🙂

  14. The real estate owned by the average Baptist Church has seen more fighting for control than almost any battlefield in history. As much Carnage as these battles leave behind, this approach empowers my humanity and indicates real spiritual leadership when waged compassionately for the spiritual benefit of the participants. It has been my experience that the fighting is usually over real estate, institutional form, member seniority, brand identity, etc. As much as anything else. While preferable to the go along get along approach and spiritual sell out, I’m not sure the battle is the best way. It seems to me that both approaches ultimately present a distorted picture of the true nature of the church and neither is producing the mature believers needed to hold the fort in the future; I’ve seen too many defenseless forts fall in the last few years.

    Having said that, I applaud the folks in Oklahoma and pray for an outcome that clearly communicated the love of Jesus.

  15. scott hendrixson wrote:

    I’m not sure the battle is the best way.

    Scott,

    If you don’t know about Mark Dever’s parasitic, abusive, destructive, authoritarian, un-Biblical 9 Marks organization than you are naive. Yes, battle must be waged against these un-Christian teachings and Dever’s False Gospel.

    There is only ONE mark of a truly Biblical and healthy church: LOVE. Love, however, never even made it to Mark Dever’s list of 9 Marks of a healthy church, which explains why 9 Marks pastors, elders, and churches are so unhealthy.

    All Mark Dever did was re-release the 1970’s abusive, cultic, heavy-Shepherding Movement’s tactics with new terminology.

  16. i’m amazed 9 Marx is still a thing. after all the sick, twisted, moronic flotsam in its wake?

    how can it still continue to be promoted?

    one day…. one day…. 9 Marx will be as wonderful as a cushy toilet seat.

  17. @ Velour:
    It seems I’ve hit a nerve, but that was not my intention. Once you’ve tasted spiritual abuse, you don’t need to taste all the flavors to have get remember the aftertaste. I’ve watched people my age who should know better but don’t. My point is that few people seem to have experienced or grasped the idea of a “Spirit and Truth” body of believers that continues to function even after a hostile takeover of the brand and the building.

  18. scott hendrixson wrote:

    My point is that few people seem to have experienced or grasped the idea of a “Spirit and Truth” body of believers that continues to function even after a hostile takeover of the brand and the building.

    I would disagree with you, Scott. With NeoCalvinism and 9Marks there is a spirit of the Salem Witch Trials, Version II.

    While people retain their faith individually, the authoritarian NeoCalvinist churches are not a place to come together to practice the tenets of the Christian faith. NeoCalvinism is anti-Jesus.

  19. I follow the Messenger on Twitter, and everything they post about their pastor sounds like it comes right out of the Calvinista playbook. Deception,

    As for battling, the Bible says we are always in a battle (Ephesians 6). The New Testament is full of confrontations by words in this battle–from Jesus, from Paul, from Peter, and John. The enemy always wants to hide what they are doing, which is why in Ephesians 6, truth is one of the pieces of armor we wear. But to share truth, we have to speak it. The Bible says “Speak the truth in love”. The enemy always says, “Stop talking”, and will enact as many ways possible to get people to stop confronting the truth, just as the pastor did to that woman who questioned the secret bonus. There are likely a number of people who do not know the truth, and continuing to hide it is to do things satan’s way.

  20. My wife, Susan, lost her battle with cancer April 17, 2017 at 10 p.m.
    Thank you all for your prayers for her. She said during the whole fight that she could feel every prayer.

    We were together for 43 years. Please pray for me as I continue to adjust to life without her.

  21. Uncle Dad wrote:

    My wife, Susan, lost her battle with cancer April 17, 2017 at 10 p.m.
    Thank you all for your prayers for her. She said during the whole fight that she could feel every prayer.
    We were together for 43 years. Please pray for me as I continue to adjust to life without her.

    I am so sorry, Wayne, to hear of Susan’s death. Our condolences to you and your children,
    and other family members and friends.

    We will continue to lift you up in prayer.

  22. These power hungry pastors enjoy using scripture to push their agendas well why not send him 10,000 plus letters filled with scripture verses confronting him on his sins? Unbelievable! Maybe if the rest of the body around the world confronts /rebukes these men through letters, phone calls, in person the 9marks, calvinistas will have a difficult time pushing their agendas. It's just a thought!

  23. Pingback: World's Largest Church Abuse Blog Covers FBC Sapulpa - The Sapulpa Messenger ICELAND

  24. Dave A A wrote:

    “The church constitution and bylaws were slated to be changed”

    This is a play that all good Calvinistas use. It happened in my former church. The pastor arrived and immediately, after firing some good people, began to change the bylaws and constitution. Oh yeah, and they joined The Gospel Coalition *by mistake.* ROFL

    As soon as we saw that, we resigned.

  25. Uncle Dad wrote:

    My wife, Susan, lost her battle with cancer April 17, 2017 at 10 p.m.
    Thank you all for your prayers for her. She said during the whole fight that she could feel every prayer.
    We were together for 43 years. Please pray for me as I continue to adjust to life without her.

    I stopped and prayed fervently for you today. My heart is broken for you. I am so, so sorry.

  26. dee wrote:

    Oh yeah, and they joined The Gospel Coalition *by mistake.*

    It's now listed TWICE in TGC's directory. I guess your former church is doubly committed. 😉

  27. My first response on reading this is “Get out and leave already!” but then I thought, that’s what the new pastor wants. If the former congregants are displaced then this pastor gets a building (probably already paid for) and all the other assets of the church. I can understand why they are fighting for it, they and those before them built it.

    I just think it’s a sad state of affairs that church becomes a battleground. The problem will be no matter who “wins”, the outcome will be a hit to the reputation of the church and its place in the community.

    Looking at it from the outside, who wants to join an organization that’s a war zone? While everyone loves a train wreck, no one wants to be on the train.

  28. @ dee:

    hi, dee! the Sapulpa Messenger video? yes, indeed. direct and right to the point.

    (longshot question – are you by chance coming to the pacific coast this summer? let’s have the best meal ever with any TWWers within a large radius.)

  29. Hey! Y’all back off! Pastor Jock is just doing what he was taught at the Seminary. Aren’t we all proud of what our SBC Seminaries are teaching and producing? Thank you Al Mohler and subordinates for straightening things out in the SBC.

  30. Max wrote:

    Whew! The only thing worse than a YRR pastor is a Football Jock YRR pastor! The arrogance of these young whippersnappers continues to amaze me. Nothing in this report about the pastor’s behavior is Christlike.

    So is he another “Pastor athlete” like everyone’s favorite Calvinista “Pastor athlete?”

  31. @ scott hendrixson:

    “My point is that few people seem to have experienced or grasped the idea of a “Spirit and Truth” body of believers that continues to function even after a hostile takeover of the brand and the building.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    hmmm…. can you elaborate?

    as in, what exactly is a ‘spirit of truth’ body of believers? how are they meant to function even after hostile takeover? and is this the only right response?

  32. Ah yes, the 9Marks, not one of which includes the word “love”, specifically love of God and neighbor on which, according to someone named Jesus, “hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:36-40)

    Instead, the 9Marxists completely ignore this foundational requirement and opt for church ‘discipline’ to bludgeon a congregation into blind obedience to arbitrary dictates of a petty tyrant.

    The 9Marxists have so perverted the Christian commandment to love that it’s become anything but loving. Instead, they give us a Nick Lowe version of Christianity where ‘you gotta be cruel to be kind’ is now the ruling principle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0l3QWUXVho

  33. I just got off the phone with this church and she was shocked that I was calling from Texas and that this information is now on the Wartburg watch. The secretary is a member of this church and she works at another church so I just happen to call the wrong church. But she is a member of the church that is being spoken of in this particular Article. And The very nice lady who answered the phone has never heard of this blog but she wrote it down and knows about it now. I think it might be a very good idea for members of the church body who read this blog contact the church and let them know how they feel about what is happening within the walls of the church and its members. It’s just an idea but spotlighting spiritual abuse in church abuse is with D and Deb do and I think it is our responsibility to hold them accountable the church I mean in question

  34. “He wanted to disband the deacons and install elders, emphasizing elder rule. This idea was not well received by the church members. So, according to our sources, the deacons kept their name but, in truth, function as elders.”

    This reminds me of the church my wife grew up in (the church in which we were married). They had a very controlling pastor; everyone knew you crossed him at your own risk.

    He got it into his head that one reason their church wasn’t growing was it was called “Park* Baptist Church” and people were staying away because of their preconception of what Baptists were like. So he brought a proposal to the church to change the name to “Park Church”. Per the bylaws, this change had to be voted on by the congregation… and they voted “no”. So the pastor went ahead and changed the letterhead, signage, web site, etc. to “Park Church” — everything but the legal name of the church, which he left as “Park Baptist Church”. He maintained that was the only thing the congregation had the right to decide by vote; everything else was at his discretion. Not enough people were willing to stand against him, so that’s the name on the door to this day.

    I can’t imagine doing that in the face of what the congregation clearly wanted, but then I’ve known several pastors like this (often with narcissistic and controlling personalities, like this guy has); they believe they are King and no one has the right to second-guess them. My wife and I have had to leave two churches (supposedly elder-led ones too!) because of pastors like this. The pastor is your best friend until you cross him on something… and then you’re PNG.

    * name changed

  35. @ Uncle Dad:
    I’m with you, Uncle Dad. I lost my first husband suddenly in an automobile accident many years ago. I have some idea of what you are going through.

    Always treasure and give thanks for the 42 years you had with your wife, as well as the time you had to say goodbye, as painful as it was. You were, and still are blessed.

  36. I saw that same video on a site called “churchfight.com” The site no longer seems to exist, but I’m glad this video is still around. I’m so thankful that our church didn’t get to this point. Our pastor didn’t stick around once we started questioning him about how we became affiliated with 9-Marx and TGC. Once his true motives were revealed, he booked. It’s disgusting, really. No one wins in this situation. I am so grateful that he hadn’t gotten to the point of changing the constitution, bylaws and deacons.
    The sheep are onto them! They are NOT shepherds, they are wolves!

  37. @ Jack:
    Jack,
    You are exactly right! They want anyone in opposition to leave. That way they can put the people they want in control. I know our former pastor wanted us to leave, but what he was doing was absolutely wrong and he was already hurting people in the church. I couldn’t just leave and let that happen.

    You are also right that nobody wins in this situation. Hopefully we’ll be able to find a pastor who loves us for who we are and not for what we have!

  38. scott hendrixson wrote:

    My point is that few people seem to have experienced or grasped the idea of a “Spirit and Truth” body of believers that continues to function even after a hostile takeover of the brand and the building.

    I can understand why. In most cases, the grandparents of the members built these churches. Generations of families committed/devoted/sacrifices their time p, work and tithes to these churches.

    Then, some hireling usurper steals the ranch and slaughters half of the sheep? Where is “Spirit and Truth” in that?

  39. Velour wrote:

    “One night, during the Awana meeting which this couple was leading, the meeting was interrupted by an off duty policeman. The couple were asked to meet with him outside immediately. They were informed by this officer (who is a church member) that they would not be allowed to return to the class due their questioning of the pastor’s authority. They were also allegedly told that they would no longer be allowed to serve in any leadership capacity in the church.” – Dee

    OK, find out where this cop works and file a complaint with his police department’s Internal Affairs division.

    Yet another cop in Pastor’s Pocket.
    (Or should that be “Pastor’s Armorbearer/Enforcer”?)

  40. Velour wrote:

    All Mark Dever did was re-release the 1970’s abusive, cultic, heavy-Shepherding Movement’s tactics with new terminology.

    I had experience with the fringes of Shepherding Movement in the Seventies.

    I still carry the scars. (And I missed the real heavy abuse horror stories — just the low end of emotional and guilt manipulation.)

    Shepherding (or “Discipleship” as my not-a-cult called it) is a control freak’s wet dream.

  41. bendeni wrote:

    The pastor is your best friend until you cross him on something… and then you’re PNG.

    Sociopaths usually are.

    I’m reminded of Anthony Hopkins’ portrayal of Adolf Hitler in the older TV-movie “The Bunker”. In the scenes with Speer or his secretaries, Hopkins played Der Fuehrer as almost fatherly — until anyone disagreed with him in any way. Then “Click On!” the carpet-chewing screaming fit erupted, usually followed by piano wire from a meathook.

  42. Root 66 wrote:

    The sheep are onto them! They are NOT shepherds, they are wolves!

    Not even wolves.
    Feral dog packs, jackals at best.
    Wolves have more class than that.

  43. There is a businessman in town who reportedly owns a Christian radio station. He reportedly also owns (either in full or part) a radio station in  New York. The Sapulpa Messenger reported that the owners of the radio station gets kick backs (all legal) from third party aggregators if people go that station’s website and clicks on their business links.

    i.e. “PAYOLA!”

  44. Smokey had the privilege of playing in two national championship games, three Big XII championship games, and a total of five bowl games while at OU. But, his greatest contribution was the spiritual leadership he gave to the team.

    A certain Baptist pastor swapped out the last letter of “leadership” with a “t” to denote his attitude toward the subject. I for one do not need a “spiritual leader”.

  45. srs wrote:

    How did “joining abortion friendly groups” fit into all this?

    That’s a headscratcher to me, too.
    Seems to dilute their focus on corruption at that church.
    Maybe they were trying to reiterate their own Christian credentials?

  46. srs wrote:

    FWIW, you might want to know that the “graphic” picture is the one that shows up in feedly for this post.

    That might actually get us more hits.
    “SURPRISE!”

  47. DOC wrote:

    Hey! Y’all back off! Pastor Jock is just doing what he was taught at the Seminary. Aren’t we all proud of what our SBC Seminaries are teaching and producing? Thank you Al Mohler and subordinates for straightening things out in the SBC.

    I really hope you are being facetious, because taking Jesus out of the teaching at a seminary is about the worst thing that could happen to it.

    And yes, I went to one of those seminaries, and I am ashamed of what it has become.

  48. Really good article! Good for them …

    I haven’t written here in quite some time, but it still seems that this site continues to undercut Creationists.

    “Here is their main page salvo. I wish I had their expertise! Well done, folks! Shortly after this video was posted, the 9Marks link was removed from the church’s resource page. It appears that the pastor is really into young earth creationism as well.”

    Was that comment necessary in telling of the story, or it is your personal feelings that are getting in the way?

  49. Bill M wrote:

    I for one do not need a “spiritua

    In the Bible, can anyone find any Mere Fallible Humans
    Who called themselves “Spiritual Leaders?”

    In the Bible, the only “Spiritual Leader” I can find…

    Is the “Spirit.” 🙂
    ——-

    Rom 8:14
    For as many as are **led by the Spirit of God,**
    they are the sons of God.

    Gal 5:18
    But if ye be **led of the Spirit,**
    ye are NOT under the law.

    John 16:13
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
    **he will *guide you into all truth:**
    (*guide = Strongs #3594 – hodegeo, to show the way, lead, guide.)
    ——

    A couple of verses you’ll NOT hear from self promoting leaders…

    Isa 3:12 KJV
    …O my people, **they which lead thee**
    cause thee to err,
    and destroy the way of thy paths.

    Isa 9:16 KJV
    For **the leaders** of this people
    cause them to err;
    and they that are led of them are destroyed.

  50. FYI: Your last post was based on a video produced by an Elder who has a house church that is both Reformed and Baptist. Apparently, a Calvinist can care about abuse and even though they are small with limited resources, they produced a video exposing criminal activity funded here in the states. You just partnered with and promoted a Calvinist. You like Wade Burleson as well, who is also a Calvinist with a church in the same state as this church you wrote about today.
    We do not wage our warfare against men, but against spiritual powers in high places. Pride, fear that leads to controlling actions and a failure to put love first are the roots of problems like this in churches of all theological persuasions though out are land. Humility and placing love first with our eyes set back onto the author and finisher of our faith is the answer to these situations. Calvinism in neither The Truth nor is it my enemy. Shameless selfish ambition certainly is an enemy even if it is found in leaders critical of Calvinism.

  51. Thank you, Dee, for this post. I must admit, I am a little surprised that Hurst is a follower of the 9Marks gang, since he is an alum of SWBTS. I know that Patterson (president of SWBTS) is hyper-authoritarian but he used to be anti-Calvinist.

    Regardless, I feel bad for the members of FBC Sapulpa and hope that the majority of the congregation comes to their senses soon.

  52. Mr. Jesperson wrote:

    You just partnered with and promoted a Calvinist. You like Wade Burleson as well, who is also a Calvinist with a church in the same state as this church you wrote about today.

    There is a difference, in my experience, between classical Calvinists such as kind, mild-mannered, respectful Presbyterians and dogmatic, abusive, authoritarian NeoCalvinists.

    Anyone care to comment on Wade Burleson’s affiliation with Calvinism?

  53. SomewhereinTime wrote:

    I haven’t written here in quite some time, but it still seems that this site continues to undercut Creationists.

    I don’t know what you mean by this. Care to explain?

    If you are referring to Young Earth Creation, than I reject it and the men behind it who signed the Chicago Statement at a hotel conference room in the 1970’s. Those men also support slavery (including slavery for anyone who is not “a Christian”, i.e. in lockstep with their crazy beliefs), deny the Holocaust took place, hate the Jewish people, believe in the overthrow of the U.S. government, want themselves and their friends to be in charge of our local, state, and federal governments, and a whole host of other nutty ideas.

    I reject the Chicago Statement because the men behind it are pure evil.

  54. Thanks to all for your prayers. I have felt them all today.
    And, yes, I thank God that He honored our marriage by giving us time to say goodbye.
    Thank you.

  55. Haven’t caught up with everything yet, but wanted to say that I keep reading the town as ‘scapula’.

    Also, I feel like aside from decision making like in a session (which was a church vote thing) deacons were basically elders in Baptist churches growing up too.

  56. FW Rez wrote:

    This article on their site discusses the strange alliance:

    http://sapulpamessenger.com/paige-patterson-9mark-dever-fbc-sapulpa-common/

    I noticed that one section of this article about “hierarchy” has a photo-meme of “Pope Francis Approves”. Combined with the aforementioned statement about “abortion friendly groups” makes me wonder if the Sapulpa Messenger is still “You Can’t Take the Baptist out of the Boy” when it comes to abortion and anti-Catholicism.

  57. Max wrote:

    Whew! The only thing worse than a YRR pastor is a Football Jock YRR pastor!

    Can’t help thinking of O.J.Simpson…

  58. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    FW Rez wrote:

    This article on their site discusses the strange alliance:

    Thank you both. I can still remember Patterson saying from the pulpit of SEBTS (while he was president there, so it was in the late ’90s) that he wanted Southeastern to become a “preacher factory”.

    Clearly this implies mass production (i.e., cloning) and his use of the word “preacher” rather than the Biblical term “pastor” indicates what kind of clone he was most interested in.

    And yes, I am aware that there is only one letter difference between the words ‘clone’ and ‘clown’

  59. Burwell wrote:

    And yes, I am aware that there is only one letter difference between the words ‘clone’ and ‘clown’

    “Send in the Clones!”
    Paranoia: the Role-playing Game

  60. @ Velour:

    Wiki lists something like 300 or so signers. Are you saying that all these people are ‘the men who signed it’ and therefore are you saying that all of them are what you are saying they are, or are you talking about some smaller group?

    What you are saying is greatly troubling, depending of course partly on how many people you are talking about.

    BTW, I reject the Chicago Statement also, but I reject it because some of its claims are unsubstantiated either by evidence or by scripture.

  61. okrapod wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Wiki lists something like 300 or so signers. Are you saying that all these people are ‘the men who signed it’ and therefore are you saying that all of them are what you are saying they are, or are you talking about some smaller group?
    What you are saying is greatly troubling, depending of course partly on how many people you are talking about.
    BTW, I reject the Chicago Statement also, but I reject it because some of its claims are unsubstantiated either by evidence or by scripture.

    Hi Okrapod,

    I also believe that the Chicago Statement is unsubstantiated by Scripture.

    And yes, the people who ratified the Chicago Statement in my opinion are evil. Supporting slavery for *non-Christians*? Denying that the Holocaust took place? Hating the Jewish people? Overthrow of the U.S. government? No thanks. Just a bunch of nutcases.

  62. It appears that the pastor is really into young earth creationism as well.

    While independent concepts, 9 Marks/Calvanista/authoritarian leadership and YEC goes hand in hand… in fact, you can not have (or only very rarely) YEC and truly, logical, non-intimidation, non-emotional discussions between YEC and the rest of us… It always seems to devolve into personal attacks on the faith of the person questioning YECism.. So, the solution is to wed YEC with authoritarianism..

  63. Several months ago I had a conversation with a casual acquaintance from FBC-Sapulpa. I could tell that I wasn’t getting the whole picture. It all makes sense now that I have read this article. There was hurt that was going unexpressed as this individual was stating their situation with respect to it all without airing the church’s dirty laundry. Prayers go out to all those involved in this church and particularly to those who are adversely impacted by this toxic environment.

    The Messenger’s site is well done for a targeted watch-blog aimed at such a small audience. Articles are well (and carefully) written and the images are very entertaining, i.e. Dever and Patterson dressed as two of Bedrock’s best know citizens. The wording in this quote is enough to feed my sarcastic nature for a week: “Dr. Paige Patterson was a shrewd strategist who helped craft a successful long term plan on snatching the SBC away from a liberal takeover. However, when the blood from the liberal carcasses had dried and there was nobody left to fight and no animals left to shoot in Africa, he began to have problems with his own people in the convention.”

  64. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    So, the solution is to wed YEC with authoritarianism.

    For many, YEC is considered the correct way to interpret scripture and that if you don’t accept it then you are denying the authority of scripture. For them, their authoritarian world view requires YEC. Wade Burleson is a refreshing exception. He holds to a young earth while not making it a test of faith: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2017/04/the-importance-of-building-christian.html

  65. Nancy2 wrote:

    I can understand why. In most cases, the grandparents of the members built these churches. Generations of families committed/devoted/sacrifices their time p, work and tithes to these churches.

    The church I went to as a child drifted away from it’s origins (SBC), got kicked out, etc, long after we left. I watched them dwindle, and sell off pieces of the property, until finally they are down to like 15 people meeting in somebodys house and have sold the church. Sad to see. What happened to the once paid off building funds? Who ends up getting the money at the end, or are they usually in massive debt at that time? Such a waste.

  66. Burwell wrote:

    must admit, I am a little surprised that Hurst is a follower of the 9Marks gang, since he is an alum of SWBTS. I know that Patterson (president of SWBTS) is hyper-authoritarian but he used to be anti-Calvinist.

    We were perplexed by this as well. Especially when we saw the editorial review for the book “9Marks of a Healthy Church”. Paige Patterson plainly says “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church is required reading for my students in ecclesiology.”

    It appears the hyper-authoritarianism you mentioned is the common theme. It is our belief that the doctrine isn’t all that important to men like Patterson on the one hand or the Calvinistas on the other… its more about power and control. 9Marks provides an excellent framework for a power grab. It also sets up the perfect environment for abuse. It started with Michael Servetas who Calvin had murdered and continues on into today.

  67. Velour wrote:

    the people who ratified the Chicago Statement in my opinion are evil. Supporting slavery for *non-Christians*? Denying that the Holocaust took place? Hating the Jewish people? Overthrow of the U.S. government? No thanks. Just a bunch of nutcases.

    This is interesting. Not to doubt the veracity of your statement, but I just read, at least what I think is, the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy and saw no mention of slavery, holocaust, Israel, Jewish people etc.

    Can you send some links more information so I can research further?

    Thanks,
    Brian

  68. FW Rez wrote:

    For many, YEC is considered the correct way to interpret scripture and that if you don’t accept it then you are denying the authority of scripture.

    I think this is where you come out with problems. It’s biblical/you’re not a Christian is mean to be a thought stopper.

    Related to what ishy said upthread, I am deeply suspicious of anyone who wants you to stop talking about something, or won’t allow you to go in certain directions (the earth is old, for instance). If you want to believe a thing, believe it. If you want to convince me, show me the evidence. If you want me to stop thinking and just accept what you’ve said, we have a problem.

  69. Bobo wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    the people who ratified the Chicago Statement in my opinion are evil. Supporting slavery for *non-Christians*? Denying that the Holocaust took place? Hating the Jewish people? Overthrow of the U.S. government? No thanks. Just a bunch of nutcases.
    This is interesting. Not to doubt the veracity of your statement, but I just read, at least what I think is, the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy and saw no mention of slavery, holocaust, Israel, Jewish people etc.
    Can you send some links more information so I can research further?
    Thanks,
    Brian

    Hi BoBo (aka the other Brian),

    I have previously posted links many months ago. I don’t have the time to look them all up again.

    It was, however, very easy to research. Just start with the Chicago Statement and then research the proponents/drafters of it. These are their beliefs. And those men are nutcases.

  70. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Dang! That is truly messed up. Too much power too early for this dude…
    Bon Sorge in his book on Job writes about the danger of leaders who have not experienced real failure or suffering leading. This seems like an example of that. He is running over the sheep, not tending them.

    This is why younger men should submit to older men, why everyone should submit to each other (not submission straight up a hierarchy with the person who takes on the title “pastor” being at the top under Jesus alone), why newer believers should lead nothing, why biblical leadership in the first place should be nothing more than a willingness to stick one’s neck out for others, do the thankless tasks, and be a good example. That’s what the Bible says. Clear as day. But these young calvinistas don’t seem to care much about the Bible. They have the form of godliness, but their lives deny its power. They worship church fathers, they’re passionate about doctrine, they like memorizing hammer texts, they love watching Youtube videos of their celeb heroes.

    But the Bible, the whole word of the Lord, the Holy Spirit? I think some of them know the Lord but are so young and foolish they’re easily led round by whatever tickles their ears, and maybe, in time, after they’ve hurt a lot of people, they’ll regret it and repent. But others, and I think not an insignificant number, though they’d never admit it even to themselves, they hate the truth, hate the Bible, maybe hate Jesus Himself. If they didn’t, could you tell the difference from their behavior?

  71. Burwell wrote:

    Thank you, Dee, for this post. I must admit, I am a little surprised that Hurst is a follower of the 9Marks gang, since he is an alum of SWBTS. I know that Patterson (president of SWBTS) is hyper-authoritarian but he used to be anti-Calvinist.

    Just add POWER (and how to get it):

    “These two Kings said one to another:
    King unto King o’er the world is Brother…”

  72. Brother Maynard wrote:

    So is he another “Pastor athlete” like everyone’s favorite Calvinista “Pastor athlete?”

    The HUMBLE one who’s really into Fantasy Football leagues?

  73. Lea wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    I can understand why. In most cases, the grandparents of the members built these churches. Generations of families committed/devoted/sacrifices their time p, work and tithes to these churches.
    The church I went to as a child drifted away from it’s origins (SBC), got kicked out, etc, long after we left. I watched them dwindle, and sell off pieces of the property, until finally they are down to like 15 people meeting in somebodys house and have sold the church. Sad to see. What happened to the once paid off building funds? Who ends up getting the money at the end, or are they usually in massive debt at that time? Such a waste.

    15 people meeting in somebody’s house may be closer to the truth than 1,500 meeting in a big beautiful cathedral. That’s not necessarily a sad ending.

  74. Law Prof wrote:

    biblical leadership in the first place should be nothing more than a willingness to stick one’s neck out for others, do the thankless tasks, and be a good example. That’s what the Bible says.

    Indeed. Everybody wants to be the ‘leader’ when they get to be control freaks and boss everyone around and accept the adoration and paychecks and go to conferences where they talk about how important they are…and those are not the guys who should be leading at all. Who wants to do the hard work? Who actually cares about people other than themselves?

  75. Law Prof wrote:

    I think some of them know the Lord but are so young and foolish they’re easily led round by whatever tickles their ears, and maybe, in time, after they’ve hurt a lot of people, they’ll regret it and repent.

    And those people need to be taught. By their ELDERS. Not be elders themselves.

    People who are incapable of listening to their elders in the traditional sense should not be in charge.

  76. Law Prof wrote:

    15 people meeting in somebody’s house may be closer to the truth than 1,500 meeting in a big beautiful cathedral. That’s not necessarily a sad ending.

    Well, I don’t want to get into all the details online. It feels like poor stewardship of the resources they were given, though.

  77. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    It is our belief that the doctrine isn’t all that important to men like Patterson on the one hand or the Calvinistas on the other… its more about power and control. 9Marks provides an excellent framework for a power grab.

    Clearly it is not about doctrine or Dever and Mahaney would never have become BFFs. Their doctrines were 180 except regarding authoritarianism where they were in total agreement. And that is all that mattered.

  78. Lea wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    biblical leadership in the first place should be nothing more than a willingness to stick one’s neck out for others, do the thankless tasks, and be a good example. That’s what the Bible says.
    Indeed. Everybody wants to be the ‘leader’ when they get to be control freaks and boss everyone around and accept the adoration and paychecks and go to conferences where they talk about how important they are…and those are not the guys who should be leading at all. Who wants to do the hard work? Who actually cares about people other than themselves?

    It’s why young men such as this well-fed ex-football player probably have no business being in any form of church leadership at all, much less standing in front of a crowd each Sunday and spinning their take on the Bible. It’s perfectly insane that we should make three years obtaining one of the least rigorous and academic of all degrees the qualification to be a leader of people in a church or a teacher of truth. Insane, not of the Lord. The people fit to lead are those who’ve learned through life experience from their mistakes, those who’ve outgrown ambition, those who are humble and don’t seek the spotlight.

    We’re putting an enormously high percentage of evil, conscienceless narcissists in the position of supreme church commanders and imposers of discipline. According to recent academic study, 44% of pastors in their 20s and 30s had NPD, meaning they have no conscience, are incapable of caring about anyone but themselves, and generally would seek to destroy anyone who stands in their way (to use a Calvinist phrase, they’re totally depraved, they’re evil). This study was undertakes in the liberal wing of a Canadian Presbyterian denomination–does anyone doubt that the numbers are not far higher among US Baptists?

  79. Burwell wrote:

    Thank you, Dee, for this post. I must admit, I am a little surprised that Hurst is a follower of the 9Marks gang, since he is an alum of SWBTS.

    I have reason to believe that due to the change in overall leadership in the SBC, even non-Calvinists feel they must play the game to stay in the game.

  80. Lea wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    15 people meeting in somebody’s house may be closer to the truth than 1,500 meeting in a big beautiful cathedral. That’s not necessarily a sad ending.
    Well, I don’t want to get into all the details online. It feels like poor stewardship of the resources they were given, though.

    Been there, done that. Was once part of a mega with 8,000 members and about 5,000 attending at three locations on Sunday. They had two campuses, their own school, a huge central meeting hall on the main campus where they’d have celebs from all over come to their conferences, a TV ministry led by one member, another was a popular Christian radio talk show host who later went national, and a former TV news anchor who was in leadership. One thing led to another, and when an abusive leader was foolishly put in charge, within five years most of the original members had left rather than deal with controlling abuse and the whole works collapsed in financial ruin, they lost buildings and all. Last I heard a fraction was all that was left, meeting at a local high school.

  81. dee wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    Thank you, Dee, for this post. I must admit, I am a little surprised that Hurst is a follower of the 9Marks gang, since he is an alum of SWBTS.

    I have reason to believe that due to the change in overall leadership in the SBC, even non-Calvinists feel they must play the game to stay in the game.

    Dee it is probably similar to when you could not be a moderate in the SBC without serious ramifications, it has now switched to it is not cool to be non-cal in the SBC.

  82. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    must admit, I am a little surprised that Hurst is a follower of the 9Marks gang, since he is an alum of SWBTS. I know that Patterson (president of SWBTS) is hyper-authoritarian but he used to be anti-Calvinist.

    We were perplexed by this as well. Especially when we saw the editorial review for the book “9Marks of a Healthy Church”. Paige Patterson plainly says “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church is required reading for my students in ecclesiology.”

    It appears the hyper-authoritarianism you mentioned is the common theme. It is our belief that the doctrine isn’t all that important to men like Patterson on the one hand or the Calvinistas on the other… its more about power and control. 9Marks provides an excellent framework for a power grab. It also sets up the perfect environment for abuse. It started with Michael Servetas who Calvin had murdered and continues on into today.

    Paige Patterson has destroyed many lives in the SBC, but he is viewed as a hero by so many of the current men folk-because he saved the SBC. What a bad joke IMO.

  83. Law Prof wrote:

    It’s why young men such as this well-fed ex-football player probably have no business being in any form of church leadership at all, much less standing in front of a crowd each Sunday and spinning their take on the Bible.

    Now that I think about it, my ex-senior pastor at my 9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite gulag, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, was a basketball player.

    He had a sub-par college education, rounded out with a fake Ph.D. from a diploma mill in Independence, Missouri that costs $299 and another fake advanced degree.

  84. @ mot:
    if the SBC was ‘saved’, why now this terrible plague of stealth ‘take-overs’?

    seems to me the SBC had more integrity in the days of Herschel H. Hobbs than under the rule of Patterson-Mohler

    I guess those who were silent during the first purge now have to face their own destruction at the hands of a new wave of take-over folks who are as utterly ruthless as the first wave

  85. Law Prof wrote:

    According to recent academic study, 44% of pastors in their 20s and 30s had NPD, meaning they have no conscience, are incapable of caring about anyone but themselves, and generally would seek to destroy anyone who stands in their way (to use a Calvinist phrase, they’re totally depraved, they’re evil). This study was undertakes in the liberal wing of a Canadian Presbyterian denomination–does anyone doubt that the numbers are not far higher among US Baptists?

    Hmmm. Explains why I’m irristibly compelled to flee church.

    Seriously, sat at the back of my wife’s church last Sunday. The only thing compelling was daydreaming about the breakfast I knew we’d be having afterwards.

  86. Well, here are some chilling words from Tim Challies today that fit well with this topic (see: https://www.challies.com/articles/they-have-not-rejected-you-they-have-rejected-me):

    To reject God’s spokesperson was to reject God. Today God calls you and me to be his spokespersons to the world. We can learn from Samuel that our task is to faithfully communicate the words God gives us, then to know that those who accept the words are actually accepting God, not us, and that those who reject the words are actually rejecting God, not us.

    There may be consequences when we speak on behalf of God. We may face censure, we may face mockery, we may face violence, we may face death. Yet when we have spoken for God, we can be convinced that their hatred is first against God.

    I understand this to mean that if we disagree with with the pastor then it is God we are rejecting. This seems to give the pastors a free pass to run amok.

    Maybe he should have emphasized the part about “And the LORD said to Samuel, ‘Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.’” That seems to say that if the congregation rejects the pastor, the pastor should obey them and step aside rather than doubling down. What a twisting of the Bible by Challies. I expect that article to show up later this week on TGCs front page list of links.

  87. Ken F wrote:

    Well, here are some chilling words from Tim Challies

    The same coward who won’t allow anyone to comment on his articles?
    If his ideas are so sound, why doesn’t he want feedback? Criticism? Pushback?

  88. SomewhereinTime wrote:

    I haven’t written here in quite some time, but it still seems that this site continues to undercut Creationists.

    This is one of the few places I’ve been able to have any respectful discourse with young earth creationists.

    All the other ones tell me I’m not Christian because I don’t subscribe to that worldview.

    They’re not wrong, but YEC isn’t the the only reason to deconvert. Unconvert? I’d use apostasize but I’m not sure that’s a word either. Sounds like something Jane Fonda would do…

  89. Just have to say that all these guys wonder why there are nones, dones, and the rest are leaving in droves, shopping for a new church.

    Sheesh, I realize the arrogance and narcissism, but a 5-year could figure this out. Get over yourself Mr. J. MacLite Dever Jr. and just stop with all the overbearing and productions. People and Christians want authenticity, not another place where they get beat up and have it lorded over them.

    Love and authenticity, love and authenticity.

    These guys need to get real and stop playing. They may get rich, but in the end they will give an accounting and, in addition, how shallow is that life?

  90. Christiane wrote:

    @ mot:
    if the SBC was ‘saved’, why now this terrible plague of stealth ‘take-overs’?

    seems to me the SBC had more integrity in the days of Herschel H. Hobbs than under the rule of Patterson-Mohler

    I guess those who were silent during the first purge now have to face their own destruction at the hands of a new wave of take-over folks who are as utterly ruthless as the first wave

    IMO the Calvinists are not nearly as nice as the moderates were during the TAKEOVER and it will be much harder to remove them from the SBC. So yes the folk that stayed silent during the purge look where it go you.

  91. Jack wrote:

    but YEC isn’t the the only reason to deconvert. Unconvert?

    My grandmother was a Presbyterian, had a degree in science from a well-known university in the 1920’s, and she worked on the teams of Nobel Prize-winning researchers. Even she AND her other researchers who were Christians believed in an Old Earth.

    This Young Earth Creation nonsense is just that. They’ve made God out to be dishonest.
    Dinosaurs and all kinds of ancient things the Young Earthers claim are less than 6,000
    years old.

    My ex-senior pastor made these claims. Full disclosure: He also had a sub-par education
    from a Bible College (John MacArthur’s) and a fake Ph.d. for $299 from a diploma mill.

  92. Jack wrote:

    Seriously, sat at the back of my wife’s church last Sunday. The only thing compelling was daydreaming about the breakfast I knew we’d be having afterwards.

    Yes, between the huge numbers of personality-disordered church “leaders” and all of the other problems in churches, breakfast out is a nice idea (or even at home) in lieu of
    being chained to some nutty or abusive group.

    I am with you 100% on that, Jack.

  93. SomewhereinTime wrote:

    I haven’t written here in quite some time, but it still seems that this site continues to undercut Creationists.

    I’m not sure what you means by “Creationists” because that term covers quite a spectrum. I used to be a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) but became an Old Earth Creationist (OEC) quite a few years ago. I don’t think anyone has all of this figured out, so I believe there should be room from polite discussion. I personally don’t get bothered whether people believe in a young or old earth. And my short experience with TWW makes me think that most of the commenters similarly don’t get wound too tight over this topic. But when YECs become uncivil and accuse me of being a heretic, then I get a bit excited. In my own experience, most of the YECs I have run across are of the uncivil type – very narrow-minded and not open to discussion. But that is just my personal experience.

    Here’s a good example of what I mean. This is a recent article from TGC that I actually mostly agree with: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/is-genesis-history-revisiting-an-age-old-debate. The comments are worth reading. Note how YECs tend to claim that their view is the only biblical or true view, and that any other view is somehow contrary to the gospel. This is what commenters here tend to oppose.

  94. Ken F wrote:

    Well, here are some chilling words from Tim Challies today that fit well with this topic (see: https://www.challies.com/articles/they-have-not-rejected-you-they-have-rejected-me):
    To reject God’s spokesperson was to reject God. Today God calls you and me to be his spokespersons to the world. We can learn from Samuel that our task is to faithfully communicate the words God gives us, then to know that those who accept the words are actually accepting God, not us, and that those who reject the words are actually rejecting God, not us.

    Does this not sound very much as if it had come from the keyboard of one of those 44%?

    By the way, in addition to the 44% of young pastors who had full blown NPD, I believe the study also indicated that approximately 90% of the young pastors had identifiable narcissistic characteristics. Narcissism is arguably the one trait most opposite godliness, it seems to be the first sin that caused one third of the angels to fall.

    So the odds with squishy liberal Canadian Presbyterians, if they have a young pastor, is about 9 in 10 that a strong trait of said pastor will be that most associated with Satan himself, while 4 in 9 will be be utterly given over to evil.

    Again, when I think of liberal pastors, particularly liberal Canadians, it’s not like “Look at me, I’m The Man” exactly leaps out as a defining characteristic. Whereas within U.S. evangelicalism, that trait fairly screams at you. One can only imagine what those numbers would be in that milieu.

  95. Law Prof wrote:

    squishy liberal Canadian Presbyterians,

    Are they squishy because they’re liberal, Canadian or Presbyterian? Or is it the ‘perfect storm’ of squishyness when you are all three. I’m liberal & Canadian, am I 2/3 squishy?

  96. Jack wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    squishy liberal Canadian Presbyterians,
    Are they squishy because they’re liberal, Canadian or Presbyterian? Or is it the ‘perfect storm’ of squishyness when you are all three. I’m liberal & Canadian, am I 2/3 squishy?

    No, 3/3 🙂

  97. I have been a Christian for 45 years. Young earth or Old earth creation has never been an issue for me. Who cares? I do not understand why this is important. There are so many issues that ARE important. So why waste time on this. In the overall aspect of God’s word and what Jesus did for us it is a distraction at best.

  98. @ elastigirl:
    Spirit and Truth is the freedom to connect directly with God wherever we are without a human go between. In the old testament people were heavily dependent on time and place along with a human go between. I’m afraid that we’ve sunk back into the old testament pattern of time, place, and human authority. These are the things that hold most churches together. We occasionally swipe at this issue by defining the church as the people, but we function the same old way. When the people are connected by the Spirit they have a desire to worship and fellowship together even when there seems the time and place seem threatened. This is the only real staying power of the church. It’s the only thing that the hostile takeover can’t take over.

  99. Christiane wrote:

    @ Jack:
    nothing ‘squishy’ about the Canadians in my family

    I used to live north of some of the population of Canada, in Minnesota. Not altogether different in terms of culture, one heck of a lot closer than the culture in my current Deep South residence. Went to a church for a time up north with relatively harmless “squishy” Lutheran liberals with whom I might have disagreed on certain points of doctrine, but who were some fine people whom you felt weren’t always angling for an advantage over you or smiling in your face while simultaneously scowling at you behind your back (like the average cultic church leadership does). Just straight-shooting, live and let live folks. Squishy isn’t all bad. Of course, you have your authoritarian cults up north also, ran into a few up there, but down here, it seems you can’t go a quarter mile in any direction without running into a vicious little (or big) pseudo Christian cult that’s anything but squishy. The days of the young hippie pastor with the acoustic guitar and laissez faire style are dead and gone–replaced by a bunch of young zealots with shaved heads and hipster glasses and something on the spectrum between hardness and sheer hatred in their hearts.

  100. Leslie wrote:

    I have been a Christian for 45 years. Young earth or Old earth creation has never been an issue for me. Who cares? I do not understand why this is important. There are so many issues that ARE important. So why waste time on this. In the overall aspect of God’s word and what Jesus did for us it is a distraction at best.

    Who cares? I care. Because Young Earthers, in particular the rabid NeoCalvinists that were are now seeing, will say to your face that you aren’t saved and aren’t a Christian if you believe in an Old Earth.

    For Young Earthers/NeoCalvinists/Patriarchists–all of the secondary issues have now become primary issues.

  101. Law Prof wrote:

    The days of the young hippie pastor with the acoustic guitar and laissez faire style are dead and gone–replaced by a bunch of young zealots with shaved heads and hipster glasses and something on the spectrum between hardness and sheer hatred in their hearts.

    This.

    Yes, my ex-pastor at my 9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite gulag fits this description as well.

  102. @ elastigirl:
    Spirit and Truth is the freedom to connect directly with God wherever we are without a human go between. In the old testament people were heavily dependent on time and place along with a human go between. I’m afraid that we’ve sunk back into the old testament pattern of time, place, and human authority. These are the things that hold most churches together. We occasionally swipe at this issue by defining the church as the people, but we function the same old way. When the people are connected by the Spirit they have a desire to worship and fellowship together even when there seems the time and place seem threatened. This is the only real staying power of the church. It’s the only thing that the hostile takeover can’t take over.
    @ Nancy2:
    Spirit and Truth is a biblical reference that contrasts with the old testament pattern of time and place. It is the New Testament pattern of worship and fellowship. It’s absence allows the YRR crowd as well as many others to wreak havock in the lives of too many people. When your children and grandchildren move to the city, which some will, they will likely enter the company of one or more person’s bent on enforcing their spiritual authority. People can be be deceived by doctrine that sounds correct, but the Spirit will never betray the Truth. I pray that I haven’t offended you with my lack of clear communication.

  103. @ mot:
    It seems that many of these authority hungry leaders were abandoned by one or both parents and have no use for the wise guidance from older folks.

  104. scott hendrixson wrote:

    When your children and grandchildren move to the city, which some will, they will likely enter the company of one or more person’s bent on enforcing their spiritual authority.

    From what I hear, the NeoCalvinists and other authoritarians have taken over plenty of country churches.

    At least in the city we are autonomous and anonymous. We still have city folks who are hoodwinked for a period of time by abusive, cultic church leaders.

  105. @ Law Prof:
    Was thinking about my Pepere (grandfather), of blessed memory, six foot three, wooden leg, built his own house, was a lumber-jack as a young man in Canada. He had so much character. Never complained. Spoke little, said much ….. I think I remember everything I heard him say. 🙂 Good, good, good people, my family from Canada.

    The daughters and my father …. parochial educations, no college, factory work for the aunts, military for my father.

    But the third and the fourth generations: doctors, lawyers, teachers, serving military officers ….. you can see why people want to come to THIS country when you look at my father’s side of the family and how they flourished. A family story replicated thousands of times when immigrants came to this land.

  106. Law Prof wrote:

    Of course, you have your authoritarian cults up north also, ran into a few up there, but down here, it seems you can’t go a quarter mile in any direction without running into a vicious little (or big) pseudo Christian cult that’s anything but squishy

    Unfortunately it’s more common than you think.
    Even here we run gamut of religious experience.
    We’ve got a Furtick knock off and various other off model wanna be’s.
    However I feel about Christianity, I don’t think the trend to authoritarianism is good for the faith.
    Christianity is still the dominant faith & therefore still very influential.
    Right now, what’s bad for Christianity is bad for society in general.

  107. Pingback: Wednesday Link List | Thinking Out Loud UNITED STATES

  108. Jack wrote:

    I don’t think the trend to authoritarianism is good for the faith.

    New Calvinist leaders first strip the free will out of your life regarding your eternal destiny, and then deprive you from exercising freedom in anything else while you are under their rule. Reformed theology should never be the theology of choice for any believer … it’s too darn oppressive! This is not what Jesus had in mind for you.

  109. Velour wrote:

    scott hendrixson wrote:
    When your children and grandchildren move to the city, which some will, they will likely enter the company of one or more person’s bent on enforcing their spiritual authority.
    /
    From what I hear, the NeoCalvinists and other authoritarians have taken over plenty of country churches.
    At least in the city we are autonomous and anonymous. We still have city folks who are hoodwinked for a period of time by abusive, cultic church leaders.

    Not just churches, but institutions over those churches, like seminaries training the hundreds of pastors that are sent out to those churches, the institutions that control the pastors’ salaries, institutions that send out missionaries, institutions that purport to speak for the morality of Christians, and many others.

    If there’s no one left that is preaching God’s grace and mercy, then there won’t be many left who have the Spirit. No Christians will be left who worship in Spirit and Truth.

    Christians were never called to be silent or just passively go on worshiping when they see wolves devouring other Christians (Matt. 7:15).

  110. Velour wrote:

    From what I hear, the NeoCalvinists and other authoritarians have taken over plenty of country churches.

    I think some of my own negative experiences have caused me to be a little sloppy with my posts. When I speak of young people moving away and being taken advantage of in the city, I’m referring to the entrepreneurial start up churches that often grow rapidly without the hint of older, more mature Christians. These churches are often well organized, without a hint of anything being off doctrinally or otherwise. Some of these churches are specifically designed, kinde, gentler versions of the person’s home church where all the battles were fought. It all looks good up until the moment it isn’t anymore. There is something wrong, but there is nowhere to go for help. The weapons used in their home church aren’t available. There’s not even a real forum to discuss legitimate concerns. At this point there is no ministry, building, doctrine or anything else of value to fight for.

  111. I was asked by Dany Daniel not to read this blog. Hi Dany. I read it anyway. 🙂

    They just scratched the surface of what you and Smokie have done. Hope there is more. Sapulpa Messenger was too gentle with ya.

  112. Micah wrote:

    I was asked by Dany Daniel not to read this blog. Hi Dany. I read it anyway.
    They just scratched the surface of what you and Smokie have done.

    Good for you, Micah.
    It always bothers me when pastors tell folks not to read critical pieces. There are two things wrong with that approach.
    1. Pastors believe that their people are too stupid to put two and two together.
    2. They are hiding something and do not want to be accountable to the truth.

    Never let anyone tell you not to read extensively. Always make up your own mind as opposed to be a steeple.

    Finally, I hope that the pastors and deacons do not attempt to *dsicipline* you or others who are trying to understand the truth.

  113. ishy wrote:

    Christians were never called to be silent or just passively go on worshiping when they see wolves devouring other Christians (Matt. 7:15).

    Agreed; it’s all about where the battle lines are drawn and from where we draw our strength. As a whole, we have come to rely heavily on institutional and cultural strength which ultimately makes central leadership and decision making our focus. The local church has become a surrogate in the battle for institutional and cultural control further complicating the politics of these local congregations. The real battle is in the hearts and minds of individuals, but the battle rages at lines drawn far away from those individuals. The central participants in the battle should be those who humbly tend to the weak and wounded and keep them bound together in the Spirit.

  114. Nancy2 wrote:

    Oh, sorry. I didn’t understand what you were saying.
    Communication through type written words alone is difficult, isn’t it?!

    No problem; when I’m having a humble day my shortcomings overshadow those I perceive in others. May we all have a humble day.

  115. Law Prof wrote:

    The days of the young hippie pastor with the acoustic guitar and laissez faire style are dead and gone–replaced by a bunch of young zealots with shaved heads and hipster glasses and something on the spectrum between hardness and sheer hatred in their hearts.

    A pattern we’ve seen before — Komsomol, Hitlerjugend, Chairman Mao’s Red Guard, the Taliban…

    On Fire for The Cause so Righteous it justifies any evil to bring it about.
    Young Starry-eyed “Students” make the best fanatics.

  116. Law Prof wrote:

    By the way, in addition to the 44% of young pastors who had full blown NPD, I believe the study also indicated that approximately 90% of the young pastors had identifiable narcissistic characteristics. Narcissism is arguably the one trait most opposite godliness, it seems to be the first sin that caused one third of the angels to fall.

    So the odds with squishy liberal Canadian Presbyterians, if they have a young pastor, is about 9 in 10 that a strong trait of said pastor will be that most associated with Satan himself, while 4 in 9 will be be utterly given over to evil.

    “NOWHERE DO WE CORRUPT SO EFFECTIVELY AS AT THE VERY FOOT OF THE ALTAR!”
    — Screwtape

  117. Velour wrote:

    This Young Earth Creation nonsense is just that. They’ve made God out to be dishonest.

    Dinosaurs and all kinds of ancient things the Young Earthers claim are less than 6,000 years old.

    My ex-senior pastor made these claims. Full disclosure: He also had a sub-par education from a Bible College (John MacArthur’s) and a fake Ph.d. for $299 from a diploma mill.

    And bragged from the pulpit that at the Battle of Armageddon, Christ would award him his own personal White Horse to ride at Christ’s right hand, smiting and smiting and smiting the enemy. (Gospel according to Warhammer 40K?)

  118. Ken F wrote:

    I understand this to mean that if we disagree with with the pastor then it is God we are rejecting. This seems to give the pastors a free pass to run amok.

    Doesn’t it also mean “Pastor Is GOD”?

    Isn’t there something in their Bible about Men who proclaim themselves Gods?
    “I Shall Exalt MY Throne Above That of The Most High”?

  119. Christiane wrote:

    I guess those who were silent during the first purge now have to face their own destruction at the hands of a new wave of take-over folks who are as utterly ruthless as the first wave

    The Dantonists guillotine all the Hebertists.
    The Jacobins guillotine all the Dantonists.
    Then comes Thermidor…

    (The campaign background of the Pathfinder RPG (itself a mod of D&D 3e) includes a nation called “Galt” (obvious derivative of “Gaul”) where a French Revolution has been going on continuously for close to 100 years. 100 years of the Reign of Terror under faction after faction through coup-and-purge after coup-and-purge after coup-and-purge; the only Galtians immune from the Terror are “the Grey Guardians”, the executioners. Fanon is they are actually Ghouls (corpse-eating undead) who have been manipulating the Revolution to keep going so they can feast on all the headless flesh forever.)

  120. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    This Young Earth Creation nonsense is just that. They’ve made God out to be dishonest.
    Dinosaurs and all kinds of ancient things the Young Earthers claim are less than 6,000 years old.
    My ex-senior pastor made these claims. Full disclosure: He also had a sub-par education from a Bible College (John MacArthur’s) and a fake Ph.d. for $299 from a diploma mill.
    And bragged from the pulpit that at the Battle of Armageddon, Christ would award him his own personal White Horse to ride at Christ’s right hand, smiting and smiting and smiting the enemy. (Gospel according to Warhammer 40K?)

    You have a good memory, H.U.G.

    [False] Gospel according to Cliff McManis, senior charlatan at my ex-gulag (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley).

    I would sit in my pew and think, “Really? Jesus would entrust you with a horse? On His behalf? A guy who screams at Christians, lies about them, abuses them, and orders their excommunications and shunnings??!! Jesus wouldn’t trust you with the manure in the horses’ stable!”

  121. Micah wrote:

    I was asked by Dany Daniel not to read this blog. Hi Dany. I read it anyway.

    Micah, what you’ve probably learned by now is that New Calvinists like to control the living daylights out of you. If you haven’t already, you need to put your behind in your past with this bunch.

  122. This blog post was written a couple months ago by a young man who writes for Desiring God, and is a PhD student at Trinity. He used to attend Westminster seminary in Philadelphia, which acts as a catalyst to the main theme of his post:

    https://paulcmaxwell.com/2017/03/03/is-reformed-evangelicalism-a-place-for-the-traumatized/

    I found this the other day, and thought it would add a first person young male perspective in the movement as is often discussed here about what exactly is driving them.

    He talks about the kind of people he thinks these hyper-authoritarian and us vs. them tendencies in the church attracts, what it facilitates, how it all likely relates to trauma and will act to repress or reenforce it.

  123. A few quotes from the post I linked to above.

    “I think that Reformed and evangelical communities can serve as prime outposts signaling for the abused to come, singing a siren song of traumatic repetition.”

    “There is something about this community that is toxic to me. Reformed evangelicalism has done a lot for me, but much of it has been for the worse.”

    “If only I had known how I was using (and being used) by that system, I would have left — had I the courage along with the insight. If only I had known that I was compensating for so much childhood hurt that was only being magnified and worsened, I would have left. If only I had known that the system at Westminster chews people up and spits them out every three years, I would have left.”

    “I’m not sure how to deescalate this trauma. But currently, and I say this in spite of all the books that have been written for “survivors” and “healing” by evangelicals, there is no place for corporate or public healing of trauma in evangelicalism. For all our rhetoric of “redemption” and “reconciliation,” this is the very last place in the world I would ever tell a traumatized person to go.”

  124. “Smokey was allegedly upset when someone in the congregation spoke out at a meeting and asked the pastor to use Roberts Rules of Order as discussed in the bylaws.” (Dee)

    Authoritarian leaders hate Robert’s Rules of Order! In their my-way-or-the-highway leadership style, they prefer limited or no input from church members. Robert’s Rules provide common procedures for deliberation and debate in order to place the whole membership on the same footing and speaking the same language. Authoritarians don’t want you on the same footing … they want you under their feet! Before the New Calvinists showed up in SBC life, church congregations had a fundamental right by deliberative assembly to ask questions and require that they be thoroughly discussed before taking action. When congregational governance is booted out by New Calvinists and replaced by a plurality of elders, authoritarians can control, manipulate and intimidate members to walk the line … or else. Thus, Pastor Smokey would indeed be upset by a church member suggesting that Robert’s Rules of Order be followed in church meetings! The rules are different in his world.

  125. __

    Speaking The Same Language: “Embracing Calvinism?”

    hmmm…

    1. Because each Southern Baptist congregation is autonomous, local congregations hire and fire pastors., congregations are free to choose Calvinist or non-Calvinist pastors, but both the candidate and the congregation must be honest about their beliefs.

    2. No one should assume that pulpit (search) committees will have the theological understanding of Calvinism to ask the sort of questions that need to be asked for full disclosure to take place.

    3. It is doubly important that church committees formulate and ask their educated and astute questions early in the search process.

    4. An exit clause for both parties might be helpful in the contracting process of a new pastor should one or both parties change positions in their religious/doctrinal persuasion in the future.

  126. @ emily honey:

    Fascinating article. It definitely confirms the meanness and arrogance that is being taught, and the cliquishness too. How disturbing.

    You know, there is a liberal seminary near a non-liberal one and someone was telling me how it was before the moderates were all driven out, verses after. It doesn’t sound like a change for the better. If you drive out everyone from your life (or institution) who disagrees with you, you are doing damage to peoples ability to reason properly because they must keep their thinking within the proper lines to survive in a social circle and we are social creatures.

  127. Max wrote:

    New Calvinists

    And yet, the old Calvinists use Roberts rules without issue.

    Which is why I don’t think it’s really Calvinism that’s the problem, but some toxic mix of evangelicalism, authoritarianism, fundamentalism, Calvinism, and Baptist/non-denom lack of oversight. I haven’t put my finger on it exactly yet.

  128. emily honey wrote:

    This blog post was written a couple months ago by a young man who writes for Desiring God, and is a PhD student at Trinity. He used to attend Westminster seminary in Philadelphia, which acts as a catalyst to the main theme of his post:
    https://paulcmaxwell.com/2017/03/03/is-reformed-evangelicalism-a-place-for-the-traumatized/
    I found this the other day, and thought it would add a first person young male perspective in the movement as is often discussed here about what exactly is driving them.
    He talks about the kind of people he thinks these hyper-authoritarian and us vs. them tendencies in the church attracts, what it facilitates, how it all likely relates to trauma and will act to repress or reenforce it.

    Wow Emily — what a great article!

    Thank you! I just reblogged it.

    He also quotes Bessel Van Der Kolk, M.D., about trauma. (I have a very good book that was recommended to me by someone of Van Der Kolk’s called The Body Keeps The Score, about trauma.)

  129. Lea wrote:

    toxic mix of evangelicalism, authoritarianism, fundamentalism, Calvinism

    = “New” Calvinism!

    I agree with you regarding “Old” Calvinism. I have worshiped alongside classical Calvinists for over 60 years. I have found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of SBC majority non-Calvinist belief and practice. New Calvinism is a totally different beast.

  130. @ Max:

    Right. I am sort of fascinated with trying to pick out the really damaging parts from the rest but I am still thinking. Reading this guys article (posted above) makes me inclined to think it’s all about superiority and meanness really.

    Although realistically, probably that pastor guy doesn’t people using Roberts rules of order because he doesn’t know it and it makes him seem stupid. That’s my guess at any rate.

  131. Sopwith wrote:

    1. Because each Southern Baptist congregation is autonomous, local congregations hire and fire pastors., congregations are free to choose Calvinist or non-Calvinist pastors, but both the candidate and the congregation must be honest about their beliefs.

    All of the other clauses depend on honesty. Though Mohler has written publicly that those in pastoral search should be honest, I can’t help wondering what goes on at Southern that sends out so many dishonest wannabe pastors.

    I sat in a church watching one SBTS grad claim they didn’t want to change much of anything at the church. A few years later, and the entire staff has been fired and rehired, and their website chants over and over “You have to prove your commitment to the church by….”.

    BTW, all MDivs at Southern and Southeastern are required to take “Introduction to Church Revitalization”. Wonder what that’s about, eh?

  132. Lea wrote:

    using Roberts rules of order because he doesn’t know it and it makes him seem stupid

    Yes, there may be some knuckle-headed behavior contributing to this. However, the only “order” New Calvinists want is what they can control. Congregational polity is a threat to them. Rules – Robert’s or otherwise – provide too many boundaries, interfering with the new reformers’ strategy to take over the American church. And when you mix that with an ex-football player pastor + 9Marks mumbo-jumbo, somebody is going to get pushed around.

  133. ishy wrote:

    “Introduction to Church Revitalization”

    A young Calvinist “revitalized” a traditional SBC church near me by lying his way past the search committee regarding his theological leaning. After splitting the church, he calls it a “re-plant.”

  134. ishy wrote:

    I sat in a church watching one SBTS grad claim they didn’t want to change much of anything at the church. A few years later, and the entire staff has been fired and rehired, and their website chants over and over “You have to prove your commitment to the church by….”.

    Didn’t Jack Hyles require his Elders to “prove their commitment to the church by” handing them a glass of liquid he said was poison and ORDERING them to drink it?

  135. Lea wrote:

    Although realistically, probably that pastor guy doesn’t people using Roberts rules of order because he doesn’t know it and it makes him seem stupid. That’s my guess at any rate.

    He only knows SCRIPTURE(TM), i.e. Calvin’s Institutes and the Little Red Book of his guru.

  136. Lea wrote:

    If you drive out everyone from your life (or institution) who disagrees with you, you are doing damage to peoples ability to reason properly because they must keep their thinking within the proper lines to survive in a social circle and we are social creatures.

    Two Plus Two Equals Five —
    doubleplusgoodthink INGSOC,
    doubleplusbellyfeel INGSOC,
    doubleplusduckspeak INGSOC.

  137. Max wrote:

    However, the only “order” New Calvinists want is what they can control. Congregational polity is a threat to them. Rules – Robert’s or otherwise – provide too many boundaries, interfering with the new reformers’ strategy to take over the American church.

    He was probably just looking for a way to put everyone down, not making an actual plan. The authoritarians in my life do the same thing all the time. Say one thing to make everybody seem like they were in the wrong because they disagreed, not because it was the right thing to do.

    It’s just another one of those lies to make New Calvinists always seem right.

  138. Velour wrote:

    You have a good memory, H.U.G.

    That’s the kind of sh*t that sticks in your memory as well as to the wall.

  139. ishy wrote:

    It’s just another one of those lies to make New Calvinists always seem right.

    Two Plus Two Equals Five —
    The Party Can NEVER Be Wrong, Comrades.

  140. Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    “Introduction to Church Revitalization”
    //
    A young Calvinist “revitalized” a traditional SBC church near me by lying his way past the search committee regarding his theological leaning. After splitting the church, he calls it a “re-plant.”

    Sadly, I think it is exactly that same thing that started this blog and then brought most of us here. With all different churches all over the country…

  141. Max wrote:

    Congregational polity is a threat to them. Rules – Robert’s or otherwise – provide too many boundaries,

    There is a lot of debate on how to structure debate and Robert’s Rules is on the more restrictive end, putting more power into the hands of a president. While I prefer a more collaborative method with a facilitator, I think it is safe to say that if a “leader” finds even Robert’s Rules too restrictive of his power then get rid of him.

  142. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    It’s just another one of those lies to make New Calvinists always seem right.

    Two Plus Two Equals Five —
    The Party Can NEVER Be Wrong, Comrades.

    This reminds me of ‘there…are…four…lights’

  143. ___

    “Pastoral Search Deception Detection Required?” *

    hmmm…

    Ishy,

    With statistically nearly eighty percent of SBC pastors disagreeing with the idea that only the elect will be saved, and two-thirds disagreeing with the idea that salvation and damnation have already been determined, considering the current questionable church moral climate, a graduate degree in * forensics psycho physiology might be in order for non-paid search committees, non-paid deacons and elders in the near future utilizing this education hardily in the pastoral selection process.

    Truth or Consequences?

    Could very well b.

    (sadface)

    Trust, but Verify,

    Sopy

  144. Uncle Dad wrote:

    My wife, Susan, lost her battle with cancer April 17, 2017 at 10 p.m.
    Thank you all for your prayers for her. She said during the whole fight that she could feel every prayer.

    We were together for 43 years. Please pray for me as I continue to adjust to life without her.

    I am so sorry for your loss. Lord have mercy!

  145. @ emily honey:
    Thank you for sharing that link, Emily.

    ““Don’t be what they made you.””
    is truly the Golden Line in that film …..

    how rare and special it is when we encounter resistance to the destroying powers in our world,
    but when we do, may we be able to take note of that resistance and to celebrate it as the light that shines in the darkness ….. God Bless!

  146. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    All Mark Dever did was re-release the 1970’s abusive, cultic, heavy-Shepherding Movement’s tactics with new terminology.

    I had experience with the fringes of Shepherding Movement in the Seventies.

    I still carry the scars. (And I missed the real heavy abuse horror stories — just the low end of emotional and guilt manipulation.)

    HUG, I, too, still carry the scars. Not long ago I broke down in tears, a palpable PTSD moment. Sadly, mine was not the low end type of manipulation. What has been helping me of late is my collaboration with a fellow former cult member for a presentation at an International Cultic Studies Association conference.

    It always helps me to talk about my experiences of spiritual abuse with those who have endured the same kind of abuse. It’s a confirmation that I’m not crazy – that other victims of this kind of abuse have the same struggles. Further, when we share our experiences, it gives us a clearer understanding of the dynamics of spiritual abuse, i.e. what happened to us back then and the reasons we were vulnerable.

  147. mot wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Post

    Yep, they do not need the older folks who gave in more ways than one over the years.

    Neo-Calvinism is about bringing in new blood and kicking the old people to the curb. A culture/society can be judged how compassionate they are by the way they treat senior citizens and the elderly.

  148. Uncle Dad wrote:

    We were together for 43 years. Please pray for me as I continue to adjust to life without her.

    Please accept my sympathy and prayers as well. I am so very sorry.

  149. bendeni wrote:

    …“Park* Baptist Church” and people were staying away because of their preconception of what Baptists were like. So he brought a proposal to the church to change the name to “Park Church”

    While it’s offensive to perform an unauthorized Baptist-ectomy on the name, at least he didn’t change it to Suave or Exhale or some other night club name. I mean, you wouldn’t want people to suspect they were walking into a CHURCH, would you? /sarc

  150. mot wrote:

    Yep, they do not need the older folks who gave in more ways than one over the years.

    Annnnd that’s where they’re wrong even if they are merely venal. More than one good American Christian has cut the newly callous or neglectful church out of his or her will.

  151. Perhaps a bit off topic (but maybe not too far off), this was posted on RC Sproul’s site today: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/garden-eden-legalism-antinomianism/. It describes the legalism and antinomianism produced in Eve that was passed down through DNA to all humans, but makes not mention of Adam. It’s possible that the video describes Adam’s role, but reading the transcript was more than enough for me.

  152. Sopwith wrote:

    a graduate degree in * forensics psycho physiology might be in order for non-paid search committees, non-paid deacons and elders in the near future utilizing this education hardily in the pastoral selection process.

    Yeah, I dunno. I mean, I’ve seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears. I think if I was a Southern Baptist church looking for a pastor, I’d start recruiting from Northern Smeinary or a Methodist seminary, and bypass the SBC seminaries entirely. GGBTS might have escaped some of the mind control process, but I’m not entirely positive about that.

  153. __

    “Who Are The Friends Of God, Really?”

    hmmm…

    ishy,

    I agree. It is difficult to envision how deep the rabbit hole goes. That is why it is so important to get the word out…one believer at a time. In the light, the darkness has no place.

    dis lit’l light O’ mine…

    ATB

    Sopy

  154. ishy wrote:

    I think if I was a Southern Baptist church looking for a pastor, I’d … bypass the SBC seminaries entirely

    I’m sure there are SBC traditional churches seriously considering that! Back in the days when liberal seminaries were a concern, some churches hired only conservative Southwestern seminary graduates … but since the Conservative Resurgence merged into a Calvinist Resurgence, even that once anti-Calvinist institution has been infiltrated. I fully expect, as time goes on, you will see multitudes of SBC churches pulling out of the denomination altogether. They are finding they can’t trust their seminaries, mission agencies, and publishing house. It’s a mess.

  155. Darlene wrote:

    Not long ago I broke down in tears, a palpable PTSD moment. Sadly, mine was not the low end type of manipulation. What has been helping me of late is my collaboration with a fellow former cult member for a presentation at an International Cultic Studies Association conference.

    Excellent!

  156. Ken F wrote:

    Perhaps a bit off topic (but maybe not too far off), this was posted on RC Sproul’s site today: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/garden-eden-legalism-antinomianism/. It describes the legalism and antinomianism produced in Eve that was passed down through DNA to all humans, but makes not mention of Adam. It’s possible that the video describes Adam’s role, but reading the transcript was more than enough for me.

    This men peddle a False Gospel.

    So if Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin, but not Eve’s sin, than Eve is greater than Jesus?
    Isn’t that what they are saying?

  157. Sopwith wrote:

    a graduate degree in * forensics psycho physiology might be in order for non-paid search committees, non-paid deacons and elders in the near future utilizing this education hardily in the pastoral selection process

    The following should be in the hands of every SBC pastor search committee:

    “Suggestions for Determining Whether a Pastoral Candidate Is a Calvinist” (Ronnie Rogers) http://sbctoday.com/suggestions-for-determining-whether-a-pastoral-candidate-is-a-calvinist/

    Of course, as we are finding out, New Calvinists can be elusive (lie) when answering certain questions as they attempt to reform (takeover) a church by stealth and deception. These young whippersnappers will have a lot to answer for on Judgment Day.

  158. Sad to see a 100+old church as fine as First Baptist church of Sapulpa being destroyed like it is. Even the so called former deacon leaders have became toothless lions it seems. Thanks to the Sapulpa Messenger and the faithful members who are trying to stop its demise, maybe more of the church members will wake up and clean house SOON. Otherwise, a fine establishment may go down in history. Pray for First Baptist Church and pray for the Sapulpa Messenger.

  159. Velour wrote:

    These men peddle a False Gospel.

    The problem with New Calvinist belief and practice is that you have to keep stretching Biblical text out of its context to make it fit the reformed grid or the whole wall comes tumbling down. After a while, all new reformers go crazy.

  160. Velour wrote:

    So if Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin, but not Eve’s sin, than Eve is greater than Jesus?
    Isn’t that what they are saying?

    Yes, but the problem is actually worse. In their theology, Adam’s sin universally ruined every human, but Jesus’ atonement only redeemed some. That makes Adam greater than Jesus as well.

    Here is what they need to do to verses like Romans 5:15 to make this work:

    For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much moreless did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the manyfew.

  161. Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    These men peddle a False Gospel.
    The problem with New Calvinist belief and practice is that you have to keep stretching Biblical text out of its context to make it fit the reformed grid or the whole wall comes tumbling down. After a while, all new reformers go crazy.

    So very true, Max.

    I see why LawProf frequently comments that so many of them hate Jesus. I agree.

  162. Ken F wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    So if Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin, but not Eve’s sin, than Eve is greater than Jesus?
    Isn’t that what they are saying?
    Yes, but the problem is actually worse. In their theology, Adam’s sin universally ruined every human, but Jesus’ atonement only redeemed some. That makes Adam greater than Jesus as well.
    Here is what they need to do to verses like Romans 5:15 to make this work:
    For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much moreless did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the manyfew.

    Spot on, Ken!

  163. Friend wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Yep, they do not need the older folks who gave in more ways than one over the years.

    Annnnd that’s where they’re wrong even if they are merely venal. More than one good American Christian has cut the newly callous or neglectful church out of his or her will.

    And they should cut them out of their will IMO.

  164. Sopwith wrote:

    forensics psycho physiology might be in order for non-paid search committees

    Before hiring a pastor, have an independent expert administer a full psychological exam and then have them tell you what the results mean. Some churches do it, the one I attend did, it is money well spent. If they can’t afford it, a dumb reason not to do it, offer to pay for it.

  165. Ken F wrote:

    It describes the legalism and antinomianism produced in Eve that was passed down through DNA to all humans

    Talk about adding to scripture! The only thing scripture attributes to Eve is that of being deceived. And he author left out the the words of the serpent that may have confused Eve…”you will not surely die.” That imo made sense to her since the tree of life was in the midst of the garden and was available to them. That was the deception that Eve fell for in my opinion.

  166. Velour wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    Not long ago I broke down in tears, a palpable PTSD moment. Sadly, mine was not the low end type of manipulation. What has been helping me of late is my collaboration with a fellow former cult member for a presentation at an International Cultic Studies Association conference.

    Excellent!

    Velour, you’ll be happy to know – along with HUG – that the presentation is addressing the subject of spiritual abuse in churches – their m.o., tactics in controlling unsuspecting members. The abusive techniques of Neo-Calvinist 9Marks churches will be included in the presentation. It isn’t so much the weird Jim Jones People’s Temple, Heaven’s Gate, Branch Davidians cults that we have to watch out for these days. Rather, the controlling cultists lurk behind a squeaky clean looking veneer of respectable looking church buildings, nicely dressed suburbanites driving SUVS with children in tow. The least likely places to suspect mind control and oppression.

  167. Victorious wrote:

    Talk about adding to scripture!

    Yes, and extremely misogynistic. Even if the video goes into Adam’s responsibility in the thing, I find it very offensive that Ligonier only chose to include their view of Eve’s role. And I don’t think they got it right, not even close. Nowhere does the Bible state that sin spread to all humans through Eve, but that is what they wrote. Their theology is pure rot.

  168. Ken F wrote:

    Yes, and extremely misogynistic.

    Nowhere does the Bible state that sin spread to all humans through Eve, but that is what they wrote. Their theology is pure rot.

    I know I’ve said this before here at TWW, that my former Christian cult taught that every woman has the “spirit of Eve” and more often than not is controlled by that spirit. So the females were subjected to worrying about acting like manipulative Eve-women out to control men and thereby tear down the fellowship. The males were to be alert and on guard not to fall prey to the Eve spirit at work within all women, but especially the women in the fellowship. The fear was that they would be emasculated and become effeminate wimps.

  169. Darlene wrote:

    It isn’t so much the weird Jim Jones People’s Temple, Heaven’s Gate, Branch Davidians cults that we have to watch out for these days. Rather, the controlling cultists lurk behind a squeaky clean looking veneer of respectable looking church buildings, nicely dressed suburbanites driving SUVS with children in tow. The least likely places to suspect mind control and oppression.

    In the words of that Rabbi from Tarsus, “Appearing as Angels of Light”?

  170. @ Darlene:
    Oh wow, Darlene! I’ve heard a lot of nonsense about Eve, but that takes the cake! Happy that you labeled that place your “former” cult!

  171. Max wrote:

    I fully expect, as time goes on, you will see multitudes of SBC churches pulling out of the denomination altogether. They are finding they can’t trust their seminaries, mission agencies, and publishing house. It’s a mess.

    Leaving their fixed a$$et$ in the hands of Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard.
    “See How GOD Provides For Us His Elect?”

  172. Friend wrote:

    While it’s offensive to perform an unauthorized Baptist-ectomy on the name, at least he didn’t change it to Suave or Exhale or some other night club name.

    “Night club name” — THAT’S A GREAT DESCRIPTION!

    (Like Anaheim Baptist changing its name to “Portal(TM)(c)” and its decor to grey and mauve; no clue on any of their cards or signs that they’re a church. Except for the building, which is obviously a Sixties-era Modernistic Church.)

  173. Ken F wrote:

    the legalism and antinomianism produced in Eve that was passed down through DNA to all humans

    That is a little problematic since, in their view Jesus inherited his DNA from his mother who inherited hers from Eve. And Adam. And plenty of others. Seems to me Ligonier wants to get technical about X chromosomes or mitochondrial DNA or something else carrying female traducian cooties and they are just being silly. Or I may be missing something really theologically deep.

  174. Darlene wrote:

    …my former Christian cult taught that every woman has the “spirit of Eve” and more often than not is controlled by that spirit.

    Yeah, my former cultish church taught that all women, like Eve, are easily deceived. Therefore, since Adam wasn’t deceived, women needed to be under the covering of the husband or, if single, the pastor to keep from being deceived. Sigh. No one ever talks about how helpful to Eve Adam’s ‘covering’ actually was…

    The day I stepped down from leadership and quit the church, I sat in the pastor’s office for 2 1/2 hours while he and his wife tried to bully, scare, and finally beg me not to leave. One of the scare tactics was that “if I left their church, I WOULD be deceived.” People who go there are still warned to avoid me (and others that wete in leadership and legt) to keep from getting the rebellion on them…and I left 10 years ago….

  175. Gram3 wrote:

    Seems to me Ligonier wants to get technical about X chromosomes or mitochondrial DNA or something else carrying female traducian cooties and they are just being silly. Or I may be missing something really theologically deep.

    About as deep as an old-fashioned outhouse in high summer.
    Nope Gram3, you ain’t missed a thing.

  176. Gram3 wrote:

    Seems to me Ligonier wants to get technical about X chromosomes or mitochondrial DNA or something else carrying female traducian cooties…

    Midichlorians?

  177. @ Jeannette Altes:
    Here’s the thing…I think it’s plain to see by real life examples that men are deceived. We have countless examples of them being tricked by gold diggers, beautiful women, despots & power-hungry rulers /monarchs, greedy bosses, and the list goes on. The problem that I believe exists within large swaths of Evangelicalism is to fan the flames of the gender wars. And they do this by constantly stereotyping men and women, which erects the walls between them.

  178. @ Darlene:
    Yes. Their very doctrine is an example of how they are deceived. Howevwr, I don’t think they’ve thought through the ramifications of the teaching that men are not the ones deceived…it means that they commit the acts they do knowing exactly what they are doing. That is, in my opinin, far worse than acting from deception….

  179. Darlene wrote:

    @ Jeannette Altes:
    Here’s the thing…I think it’s plain to see by real life examples that men are deceived. We have countless examples of them being tricked by gold diggers, beautiful women, despots & power-hungry rulers /monarchs, greedy bosses, and the list goes on. The problem that I believe exists within large swaths of Evangelicalism is to fan the flames of the gender wars. And they do this by constantly stereotyping men and women, which erects the walls between them.

    And apparently, it’s okay for them to be deceivers, but a much worse sin to be deceived.

  180. @ LeslieExamples of much more important issues are found in the ACTIONS (not ‘beliefs) that separate the sheep from the goats as set forth at the end of Matthew.

  181. Gram3 wrote:

    And plenty of others. Seems to me Ligonier wants to get technical about X chromosomes or mitochondrial DNA or something else carrying female traducian cooties and they are just being silly.

    Men have one x Chromosome so I guess they have half the eve evil, but women have no y’s so they have none of adams sin? Is that the way it works?

  182. Darlene wrote:

    Here’s the thing…I think it’s plain to see by real life examples that men are deceived. We have countless examples of them being tricked by gold diggers, beautiful women

    Oh see, when men are deceived it’s because of evil women. When women are deceived it’s because women are stupid and evil.

    Logic!
    ishy wrote:

    And apparently, it’s okay for them to be deceivers, but a much worse sin to be deceived.

    Yes. Also I think they went round the bent and missed that whole point about how Adam wasn’t deceived but sinned anyway! Is that also supposed to be better? It certainly doesn’t mean Adam should have been in charge.

  183. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Leaving their fixed a$$et$ in the hands of Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard.
    “See How GOD Provides For Us His Elect?”

    Yes, I suspect that the new reformers think that they are in the right when they deceive their way into SBC pulpits, proceed to split the church, and takeover churches that the previous generation paid for. They feel they have come into the world for such a time as this – that’s what their leaders tell them – so stealth and deception are OK for the good of the movement. Just as SBC’s Calvinist founders felt during the Civil War. Those slave-holding pastors and deacons thought sovereign God was surely on their side during the war until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. After the war, enlightened Southern Baptists distanced themselves from their Calvinist roots, remaining non-Calvinist in belief and practice for over 150 years … until the new reformers came along and started taking everybody back into bondage to Calvin.

  184. @ Ken F:

    That has to be some of the sloppiest proof texting I’ve ever read. Just when you think Challies can’t get any sillier…

  185. Gram3 wrote:

    Or I may be missing something really theologically deep.

    No. Just foolish men teaching out of their realm who’d be better off learning how chromosomes really work in a middle school science class 😉

  186. referring to the church in the little town of Sapulpa, Ok, my late grandfather referred to those type of preachers as (Pastors of Profit).

  187. Lea wrote:

    Men have one x Chromosome so I guess they have half the eve evil, but women have no y’s so they have none of adams sin? Is that the way it works?

    Why Lea, you Jezebel you. You must have gone to college, gotten yourself some learnin’!

  188. jas wrote:

    referring to the church in the little town of Sapulpa, Ok, my late grandfather referred to those type of preachers as (Pastors of Profit).

    Your grandfather was spot on correct about these pa$tor$.

  189. jas wrote:

    my late grandfather referred to those type of preachers as (Pastors of Profit)

    Anyone can have a successful and profitable church in America if you prop up a charismatic preacher on a stool, back him up with a cool band, and keep the sermons shallow enough for the people to swim in. A Pastor of Profit would have no stage if it weren’t for an audience willing to support him.

  190. ishy wrote:

    And apparently, it’s okay for them to be deceivers, but a much worse sin to be deceived.

    Dom & Sub, Top & Bottom.

    “The Strongest is always right! The winner is never asked if he has won fairly, only that He Has Won!”
    — A.Hitler, cult leader, orders to the German armed forces upon the invasion of Russia

  191. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    — A.Hitler, cult leader, orders to the German armed forces upon the invasion of Russia

    What he didn’t figure on is the Russian winter. Just as it destroyed Napoleon’s Grande Armee, it doomed the Wehrmacht too.

  192. @ Velour:
    Did you or has anyone commenting on this topic by chance listen to the entire talk or just the brief clip/ transcript of the clip?

  193. __

    “Whippersnappers: Whip Um Good, Lord?”

    hmmm…

    <b,Max,

    Takeovers of a SBC, PCA, and other church 501(c)3 properties by elusiveness, stealth and deception, as you are well aware, have been going on for quite some time now; giving kind folk an understanding of the exact agenda, and giving astute Christian individuals the steps of a ‘successful’ takeover process. However, I am certain that we will not have to wait for a grand Judgment Day impact. I am sure our Lord Jesus has something better in mind.

    Thanks for your faithfulness to Our lord Jesus, it will pay dividends in the days to come.

    Chow!

    ATB

    Sopy

  194. @ Muff Potter:

    I can only hope and pray that neo-calvinism has its own Russian winter and Waterloo.
    Again, kudos to the Deebs and others for getting the word out on these despots.

  195. Funny Hitler should be mentioned. Rather than leaders, we have Hitler & Hemler as dictators at the First Baptist Church of Sapulpa and they have the Gestapo whom they call deacons reporting to them. I know first-hand of a lady in this church who was reported by a deacon to have said “the pastor is a liar” in a Sunday School class he was teaching. He reported this at a deacon’s meeting and she was discussed and slandered by the entire deacon body. Nobody ever contacted this lady to find out if she had indeed made the comment. When she called this deacon & told him she DID NOT make that comment he said “that’s all I need to hear, I’ll straighten this out at the deacons’ meeting this week.” Rather than do that he went back to the deacons and told yet another version of the same lie. He obviously would rather have Hitler’s approval than to tell the truth. Lied about twice and lied to once by a deacon. What is this innocent woman to think? Such as this is what’s destroying this church.

  196. So are all Reformed/ Calvinist Christians evil or just the ones specifically addressed on this blog? I appreciate the mission of the Wartburg Watch and affirm the need to address abusive Pastors, but to this newcomer, I find the lack of balance and abundant generalizations problematic. For example it would seem that the likes of John Piper, Al Mohler, Mark Dever etc. not only are pure evil who never correctly interpret and exposit scripture faithfully but then completely represent every person who may find themselves affirming the scriptural faithfulness found among the Reformers and those who follow in their path today. I see broad strokes about topics such as new/ old earth and that the “Calvinistas” only allow certain beliefs however when you actually read the writings of people addressed here and not addressed here you will see debate on this and other topics. For example TGC just had a well written critique of the newly released “Is Genesis History” that is written from an old Earth perspective. John Piper, apparently one of the kings of the “Calvinistas” has stated many times that he is open to the Old Earth understanding of Creation. Could someone please help me to understand this aspect of the site? Why are there so few scripture references among the comments that call out a person or doctrine for being “unbiblical”, “unchristian” or “Anti-Jesus” I believe a great many people on this site have legitimate concerns about the church that I share but quite frankly it comes across as hateful and gossipy. I would like to recommend this site to friends of mine but at this moment am not convinced of its value, I am genuinely looking for aid here.

  197. Jeremy wrote:

    Why are there so few scripture references among the comments that call out a person or doctrine for being “unbiblical”, “unchristian” or “Anti-Jesus” I believe a great many people on this site have legitimate concerns about the church that I share but quite frankly it comes across as hateful and gossipy. I would like to recommend this site to friends of mine but at this moment am not convinced of its value, I am genuinely looking for aid here.

    For one thing, not everyone here is a Christian, and you shouldn’t assume such. So no, not everyone does provide Bible verses or biblical arguments. This isn’t a TGC or 9 Marks site where everyone who doesn’t play along with their beliefs doesn’t get their comment posted. I for one am grateful to hear the responses of those who don’t consider themselves Christians.

    Second, many people here have been abused by pastors who write for TGC or who are supported by them. Some of us have been abused by them right on this blog or mentioned on their blogs. I frankly am uninterested in young earth/old earth discussions, but I have seen terrible and widespread abuse with my own eyes, and I have not seen people like John Piper and friends tell people to stop the abuse. I have seen them tell people to do outrageous things like endure abuse, not have friends, or not have pets (all things John Piper himself has said directly and clearly). TGC can write on dissenting views like old earth creation all they want, but until they step up to the plate and confront the abusers in their midst, I refuse to believe they are “biblical”. I think many of them have cultic tendencies, they preach cultic beliefs, and are wolves preying on innocent lambs. Cultic Education Institute has a list of signs of a cult, and if you look purely at the Calvinist leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention (many who write for TGC), they fail on all of them: https://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html

    Last, I have been studying what they write and preach on, and they avoid teaching about Jesus’ ministry like the plague. That would mean they are not teaching Christian beliefs. Say whatever you will about their salvation, but if they are not teaching about Jesus regularly and thoroughly, they do not deserve titles like “pastor” or “biblical authority”. The things Jesus taught directly conflict with authoritarian beliefs. Calvinism is not neo-Calvinism. It is it’s own theology and belief set.

  198. Jeremy wrote:

    So are all Reformed/ Calvinist Christians evil or just the ones specifically addressed on this blog?

    I joined a reformed church, actually. So I would say no.

    But there are quite a lot of disturbing behaviors and ideas coming out of this particular group that you mentioned (sidenote: I actually went to Dever’s church for some time in the distant past and I get why people like him). And they should be called out. And people, particularly leaders!, who lie, or try to sneak into the pulpit and change the rules by stealth, or are unkind to parishioners or prideful (etc) need to be called out.

    Sopwith wrote:

    Takeovers of a SBC, PCA

    Just curious, who is taking over PCA? Those are the guys who decided the PCUSA was too liberal and split off to themselves. So I’m not surprised they are overdoing it, but I’m not sure I would call it a takeover if it was built into the cake. Obviously they were already reformed.

  199. Jeremy wrote:

    Why are there so few scripture references

    There are a TON of scripture references actually. People just don’t blurt out ‘john 3:16, BAM’ and think that is the end of the conversation.

  200. @ ishy:
    Ishy, thank you for your response. I did not assume all writers are Christians but just like if I were asserting that something or someone was or was not true of Islam it would be necessary to support that assertion with Q’uran or Hadith. You and I would agree that you do not have to be a Christian in order to read and cite the scripture when necessary. Otherwise, I am simply spouting opinion that may or may not be grounded in truth. Could you explain what you mean when you say they avoid teaching about Jesus’ ministry? A cursory examination of the teaching of those named with their own category seem to have Jesus’ ministry all over their teaching. Volumes of Books, hours of sermons, pages of articles. I cannot agree that they avoid teaching on Jesus’ ministry. My example of the old earth/ young earth was just that an example highlighting a weakness of the blog which is balance. The main purpose of this blog seems to be to highlight abuse within the church so let’s delve into the abuse issue in more depth. To be clear incidents such as what occurred at Sovereign Grace ministries, or Mars Hill we can agree were abusive, so none of my questions or statements following should be interpreted as excusing or denying the nature of those examples. I would assert that the church is made up of Arminians and Calvinsists, Protestants, and Catholics etc. with varying interpretations of scripture that each might find unacceptable from the other. They are none the less brothers and sisters as the only scriptural qualification for authentically taking the title of Christian is to believe by faith the claims Jesus made of Himself. Is it possible that my interpretation of discipline within the church and yours differ but both could equally be supported by scripture yet corrupted by human sin? Are they then unbiblical? On the topic of authoritarianism would you mind defining in general terms what types of practices within church leadership you would consider authoritarian? I appreciate your distinction between Calvinism and Neo-Calvinism but I’m not sure most people would make that distinction. Calvin believed in Church discipline, and that seems to be the main sticking point. Calvin at multiple points was charged with being abusive but could hardly be called un-biblical or anti-Jesus. What is the difference between a Neo-Calvinist and a “Classic” Calvinist?

  201. @ Lea:
    Thank you Lea, but again just going back through this stream of thought, claims of un-biblical or anti-Jesus go unsupported. I’m not really sure what John 3:16 has to do with this but those are not just opinions but statements that require support.

  202. @ <a href="#comment-324026" title="Go to comment of this author
    Lea, may I ask why you left Capitol Hill Baptist? I know of Mark Dever through T4G but have no close experience with him or anyone who does.

  203. Esther Crown wrote:

    Funny Hitler should be mentioned. Rather than leaders, we have Hitler & Hemler as dictators at the First Baptist Church of Sapulpa and they have the Gestapo whom they call deacons reporting to them. I know first-hand of a lady in this church who was reported by a deacon to have said “the pastor is a liar” in a Sunday School class he was teaching. He reported this at a deacon’s meeting and she was discussed and slandered by the entire deacon body. Nobody ever contacted this lady to find out if she had indeed made the comment. When she called this deacon & told him she DID NOT make that comment he said “that’s all I need to hear, I’ll straighten this out at the deacons’ meeting this week.” Rather than do that he went back to the deacons and told yet another version of the same lie. He obviously would rather have Hitler’s approval than to tell the truth. Lied about twice and lied to once by a deacon. What is this innocent woman to think? Such as this is what’s destroying this church.

  204. Jeremy wrote:

    I’m not really sure what John 3:16 has to do with this

    What I am saying and you don’t seem to be catching is that people can reference scripture without giving chapter and verse. So when someone says ‘jesus cared about children’ they don’t HAVE to quote it because everybody knows the verse about millstones. Meanwhile, people who come in a disagree often throw out a bible verse reference and stomp off. Which is silly.

    If you have problems with specific things specific people said, you would be better off addressing them directly instead of accusing the whole comment section of ‘not supporting’ their arguments. This is a conversation, not a debate really. People are allowed to assume that a bunch of Christian (or in some cases former Christian) people are well aware of the passage about millstones and a simple reference to it is more than enough to make the point.

  205. Esther Crown wrote:

    Lied about twice and lied to once by a deacon. What is this innocent woman to think?

    Well, perhaps she needs to be thinking of how best to exit the church. It’s proving to be a very unhealthy place for her. Sadly, many church folks are finding their churches ensnared by the New Calvinist movement and are struggling with whether to go or stay. Walking away from a church you have been a member of for years and leaving the fellowship of friends is tough. The new reformers would never be accused of being Christlike in their treatment of believers.

  206. @ Lea:
    @ Lea:
    No, I did not understand your point thank you for clarifying. Also, no accusations have been made. I did however ask questions. I asked questions because I am new to the blog and I offered my general observations and asked for clarification. I also made reference to items laid out in the “What we believe” section. So my question then is to everyone because being here and participating makes you part of this community so I was asking the community these questions. I do not agree that it is safe to assume anything, there is context to be considered when making scripture references whether specifically defined or generalized. It is specifically because of your point about people with disagreements throwing out verses and then leaving that makes my point. It is important to know if a person’s understanding of scripture is consistent with historical interpretations and commonly held interpretation of the present and then make a judgment of whether or not the point they were making is valid. Ironically I have, in this same thread been critiqued for assuming everyone here is a Christian which is why I think whether this is conversational or not people should be specific about what they mean when they use the phrase biblical or un-biblical. We are not discussing the weather but the teaching and interpretation of scripture. In the process individuals, and whole churches are being generalized and without support for the argument its sounds more like opinion or slander than credible interpretation.

  207. Jeremy wrote:

    I would assert that the church is made up of Arminians and Calvinsists, Protestants, and Catholics etc. with varying interpretations of scripture that each might find unacceptable from the other. They are none the less brothers and sisters as the only scriptural qualification for authentically taking the title of Christian is to believe by faith the claims Jesus made of Himself.

    First of all, the word “gospel” is misused by many neo-Calvinists to mean that God elects Christians, and yes, based on Jesus’ atonement, but only from those who are “submitted to authority”, meaning in a neo-Calvinist church. Joe Carter of TGC said this just a few weeks ago in response to his wolves articles, if you want one example. There are numerous witnesses quoted on here that have said that when trying to exit their neo-Calvinist, authoritarian churches, they were told by pastors that if they left, they could not be redeemed. These are people primarily taught at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. I attended SEBTS, and my degree program was dropped because “only proclamation in a church can save souls”. Furthermore, the mission of IMB and NAMB has been changed so “revitalizing” churches is now their mission, not planting new churches. So no, many neo-Calvinists do not teach “They are none the less brothers and sisters as the only scriptural qualification”.

    Many neo-Calvinists teach about Jesus’ birth and his death on the cross as providing atonement, but very little from the rest of the Gospels. Just because they mention Jesus on blogs doesn’t mean they are teaching what He said and did as an adult before the atonement, and of the churches I have been investigating, they do not teach about Jesus’ ministry in sermons. They can’t. The things Jesus said go directly against most of their authoritarian teachings–for example, all about how the Pharisees were the wrong leaders and how Holy Spirit will be the guide of the believers.

    I’ll be honest here. I believe there are a lot of people who follow neo-Calvinists who are honest, decent Christians. I do not believe many people in the leadership and TGC social media arms are honest, decent Christians. I think they want to control people and get their money. I do believe they are more true to Calvin than most classical Calvinists are, but I don’t think neo-Calvinists have much in common with many classical Calvinists.

    In that list of signs of a cult I posted above, every single one of those things has come about in the Southern Baptist Convention. I’d like to challenge you to prove that’s not the case, instead of challenging us. There’s plenty of proof on TWW already, and I don’t think most of us really need to spell it all out again. There are thousands of witnesses and many of the neo-Calvinists have been quite honest that submitting to their authority is more important to them than Christ. Investigate it for yourself and your friend.

  208. Jeremy wrote:

    Also, no accusations have been made….without support for the argument its sounds more like opinion or slander than credible interpretation.

    Slander would be something that isn’t true. That is an accusation! Every article has support for it, you can believe it or not. The rest is opinion. Which just about every article by one of the ‘calvinista’ types and all your comments are too.

    Opinions are opinions. You decide if you believe or not. If your looking for somebody to quote a bible verse for every comment, in order to listen to them, well that’s probably not going to happen. Do I need to quote a bible verse before I comment that ‘lying’ is not biblically supported for leadership in churches? Because I’m not going to do that.

  209. Jeremy wrote:

    I find the lack of balance and abundant generalizations problematic.

    I think if you stick around for awhile you will see that there is some diversity of views among the commenters here about just about everything. You will even see shifting “alliances” on various topics. With respect to Bible verses, I was disaffirmed, keyed-out, dis-fellowshipped from a 9Marksy church for asking for Biblical support for various non-negotiable teachings which are currently fashionable among the Calvinistas. In other words, being a Berean is now grounds for church discipline. I never mentioned my questions to another person outside the elder board. That, Jeremy, is the current state of the conservative church today.

    Brace yourself, Jeremy. I am an inerrantist with a very conservative views regarding interpretive methods. That is a very small group at TWW. Yet I can speak freely here, unlike at every single Gospel Glitterati church where I must be silent like a child lest I lead a man astray. I am not viewed here as inherently rebellious because I am a woman. John Piper and Mark Dever think I am inherently rebellious and teach that. Do you think I am inherently rebellious? Do you see how a woman who actually believes the Bible might think that John Piper and Mark Dever who teach such odious things might not actually believe the Bible because such odious things are not actually in the text? Can you put yourselves in the place of people who hear the things that they say and wonder how they can claim to have the Holy Spirit indwelling them when they say such?

    Liberals and non-believers did not make me a Done. It is the people who claim to believe the Bible but who have totally lost the Plot. Worse yet, those people think they are the person at the center of the plot. When someone crafts a statement like Danvers with prooftexts that do not say what they purport to say, then I do not trust the people who put forth such deceptive documents. I am truly sorry to put things so plainly. But that is how people used to speak, and it is a hard habit for me to break.

    I am not a prophet, but I’m old and I’ve seen a lot of changes. I think that the conservative church will not survive this generation as more than a shadow. The Mohlers and Devers and Grudems and Pipers will have killed it by shutting the Holy Spirit out and preaching a false gospel larded up with laws and commandments of men. I do not comment much on the ARC or Furtick or the other abominations because those are not of my household. I am deeply, deeply ashamed of my household, the “conservatives.” Idol worshipers with our own substitute Permanent Version Bible, even. Think about it.

  210. Gram3 wrote:

    I think that the conservative church will not survive this generation as more than a shadow. The Mohlers and Devers and Grudems and Pipers will have killed it by shutting the Holy Spirit out and preaching a false gospel larded up with laws and commandments of men.

    Amen! The Holy Spirit has been relegated to the back pew in the New Calvinist movement. You hear a lot of talk about sovereign God, but little mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. Anyone in their right spiritual mind would have nothing to do with the men and message of this movement. When the new reformation fades into obscurity (and it will), the greatest mission field for the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be among the multitude of disillusioned New Calvinists.

  211. @ ishy:
    @ Lea:
    Lea, please reread the portion of my post that you quoted, I said without support for your statements it SOUNDS slanderous. That is very different than saying it IS slanderous. Also, no, you don’t need to quote verses every time but perhaps you should quote what the lie was.

  212. @ ishy:
    Ishy, I won’t challenge on your list of cultish activities because I have not had a chance to read it. If have more questions after I do then I will ask. Thus my far my challenges amount to inquires about what I have inferred from reading some of the items on the blog. clearly asking for input from regulars so perhaps I am in some way challenging the community to demonstrate what it truly believes. Thank you again for your time.

  213. Jeremy wrote:

    I said without support for your statements it SOUNDS slanderous.

    Uh huh.

    I also read the part above where you said “it comes across as hateful and gossipy”.

    I’ll be like Gram and be frank. These are weasel words. Stop.

    If you want to address a direct thing fine. Do that. This vagueness cannot be answered.

  214. Jeremy wrote:

    Also, no, you don’t need to quote verses every time but perhaps you should quote what the lie was.

    Vagueness.

    Someone above directly mentioned a deacon at this church lying about what a woman said in class, with witnesses. There is a lie. There is a ‘leader’. That one’s right there in the ten commandments.

  215. Jeremy wrote:

    Thus my far my challenges amount to inquires about what I have inferred from reading some of the items on the blog. clearly asking for input from regulars so perhaps I am in some way challenging the community to demonstrate what it truly believes. Thank you again for your time.

    It’s not that I’m bothered by being challenged. It’s that I don’t see the usefulness in it. There’s plenty of evidence already out there, even just in reading and thoughtfully thinking about the things some of these people say. The most effective way to start understanding it is to read it.

  216. Jeremy wrote:

    I am in some way challenging the community to demonstrate what it truly believes.

    I am going to gently and grandmotherly reject your challenge that the community is required to demonstrate what it truly believes. If you want to discover that, perhaps you could invest a bit more time reading or ask specific questions of specific commenters or both. The way you approached your problem initially was sub-optimal. I sense a generational issue here, however I am always available for a Gramsplainer. 🙂

  217. Esther Crown wrote:

    Funny Hitler should be mentioned. Rather than leaders, we have Hitler & Hemler as dictators at the First Baptist Church of Sapulpa and they have the Gestapo whom they call deacons reporting to them. I know first-hand of a lady in this church who was reported by a deacon to have said “the pastor is a liar” in a Sunday School class he was teaching. He reported this at a deacon’s meeting and she was discussed and slandered by the entire deacon body. Nobody ever contacted this lady to find out if she had indeed made the comment…

    Ester, what you may not know is that this same lady who was falsely accused at the deacons meeting was actually discussed at another meeting in which they were deciding whether or not to do church discipline on her. All this without asking her or the 40+ other witnesses in her class if it was true that she said “the pastor is a liar”.

    This was confirmed to me by the vice chairman of deacons who was at that meeting and has now resigned and left this church. The funny thing is, she may not have made that statement, but it is true statement nonetheless. He is a liar. For what its worth, this is a different lady than the one that was mentioned in TWW post above.

    Also, just last week Smokey, Dany and these deacons ran off two of the kindest most serving Young at Heart leaders this church has ever had. I hope someone will comment with that story on here too.

  218. RE the members that stood up to the bullies:

    My mama was born in Sapulpa. Only a fool would mess with the ladies and gents there well schooled in Baptist freedom.

    May real Baptists everywhere unite and throw the bums out!

  219. scott hendrixson wrote:

    When I speak of young people moving away and being taken advantage of in the city, I’m referring to the entrepreneurial start up churches that often grow rapidly without the hint of older, more mature Christians. These churches are often well organized

    They can avoid all of this by not going to that menacing big-city church. Seriously. I’d rather see the young adults in my family get a nice brunch. God knows where every precious lamb is.

  220. Jack wrote:

    This is one of the few places I’ve been able to have any respectful discourse with young earth creationists.

    Thank you.

  221. SomewhereinTime wrote:

    “Here is their main page salvo. I wish I had their expertise! Well done, folks! Shortly after this video was posted, the 9Marks link was removed from the church’s resource page. It appears that the pastor is really into young earth creationism as well.”

    The fact that the pastor would only stress the resources of young earth creationism is a red flag to me. I am waiting for they when a YEC is willing to put the resources of places like Biologos on the resource page.
    I was in a church which said that they would NEVER support any OEC resources to be advertised.

    That is precisely why that is mentioned.You are welcome to say you believe in YEC but I, along with many others will disagree with you.That is not disrespect. There are a number of YEC who comment here regularly.

  222. Jeremy wrote:

    I believe a great many people on this site have legitimate concerns about the church that I share but quite frankly it comes across as hateful and gossipy. I would like to recommend this site to friends of mine but at this moment am not convinced of its value, I am genuinely looking for aid here.

    I would not recommend this site to your friends since it is soooooo full of hate and gossip. We wouldn’t want to muddle their snowflake brains, would we? It is so hard when we cannot trust people to evaluate things for themselves. Bless their hearts, they need our learned decrees as to what they should, and should not, read because they are so gosh darn stupid.

    Frankly, this blog is so well read that I can hardly keep up with the comments. The threat of telling me that you cannot, at this time ,recommend our blog, is actually a relief. There are many great blogs out there. Right now, Owen Strachan is telling women to grow up and not wear leggings and others are bemoaning that people have pets instead of more children. Perhaps such discussions will be more to his, and your, liking. Plus you can learn all about the sanctified testosterone theories of CBMW.

    This blog is dedicated to exposing the abusive things that are said. Unfortunately for you, the Calvinists are in the news, jumping up and down to be noticed. They do not get to say what we notice and they are getting what they want, attention.

    Now, if you took the time to read through this blog’s many years, you would see that we have discussed the Calvinistas who are OEC. I have even discussed the fact that Tm Keller is a Theistic evolutions as I am. I just wrote a blog in which I said I agreed with a current blog post on TGC that pastors can be bullies.

    So, do what you are supposedly telling me to do. Read before you think you know what is going on here and comment in that vein.

  223. sounds like more members of the church in oklahoma are finally waking up to whats happening to their brothers and sisters in christ!!!!

  224. Jeremy wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Did you or has anyone commenting on this topic by chance listen to the entire talk or just the brief clip/ transcript of the clip?

    I listened to it.

  225. dee wrote:

    Right now, Owen Strachan is telling women to grow up and not wear leggings and others are bemoaning that people have pets instead of more children.

    I’d like to know what Owen S. thinks about bicycle pants. Today is Ride your Bike to Work Day. My bike pants look like yoga pants. Mine bike pants are much more expensive than yoga pants.

    Am I in peril?

    How about when I wear my bike pants with a t-shirt that says, “Cinnamon Rolls Not Gender Roles”? or “Smashing the Patriarchy is my Cardio.” Does this put me in double peril?

    #AskingForAFriend

  226. Jeremy wrote:

    @ <a href="#comment-324026" title="Go to comment of this author
    Lea, may I ask why you left Capitol Hill Baptist? I know of Mark Dever through T4G but have no close experience with him or anyone who does.

    I know people who left Mark Dever’s gulag, Capitol Hill Baptist Church. He is an arrogant, self-centered, hateful, unloving man which is why they left.

    He lacks humility. He should step down. He is unfit to be in the clergy.

  227. Jeremy wrote:

    John Piper, apparently one of the kings of the “Calvinistas” has stated many times that he is open to the Old Earth understanding of Creation.

    John Piper can’t even fathom women being police officers. Or wives leaving abusive husbands.

    John Piper defended Mark Driscoll’s litany of abuses at Mars Hill in Seattle and said that the closing of Mars Hill/loss of Driscoll was, “A loss for The Gospel.” No, it was an answer to fervent prayer from people like me!

    I’m not believing what you said about John Piper.

    Oh yes, his former church Bethlehem Baptist has “disciplined” before all a godly Christian wife/church member of a large home-schooling brood of children for leaving her abusive husband of decades. I buy soap from her.

  228. Jeremy wrote:

    Why are there so few scripture references among the comments that call out a person or doctrine for being “unbiblical”, “unchristian” or “Anti-Jesus” I believe a great many people on this site have legitimate concerns about the church that I share but quite frankly it comes across as hateful and gossipy. I would like to recommend this site to friends of mine but at this moment am not convinced of its value, I am genuinely looking for aid here.

    Jeremy:

    1. How old are you?

    2. What dog do you have in this fight about this church?

    3. What is your level of education (college, etc.)? Where did you go to college?
    Major?

    You strike me as being very controlling and immature. We live in America. It’s a free country. We have the First Amendment. People can openly discuss any ideas that they want to. Why don’t you know that?

    Why is it that discussing ideas upsets you? They’re ideas.

    People don’t need to proof-text every argument that they have, and TWW is a nice oasis for those of us who relentlessly had bullies (mis) quote Scripture verses to us.

    The Bible isn’t King. Jesus — who is the Living Word — is King.

  229. @ Jeremy:
    One thing that I have learned in blogging is that people can come on with all sorts of Scripture verses to *prove* their peculiar points of view. I have begun shutting people down on witter who think they can prove to me, via quoting Scripture, why I must believe in a young earth.

    John Piper is one guy that does not quote Scripture to prove his points of view on all occasions. Let me list a few examples

    1. Muscular women have fast and violent sex. (Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.)
    2. A tornado hit a liberal Lutheran church because they support gay marriage.
    3. Women should not be police officers.
    4. “I looooooove Mark Driscoll’s theology.

    Much of what is proposed by the closed door theology of TGC/CBMW (essentially the same) is similar.

    1. Sanctified testosterone
    2. CJ Mahaney is our friend and has not done anything wrong.
    3. Doug Wilson-just plain Doug Wilson
    4. Soap Bible submission
    5. Rarely mentioning the pain of child sex abuse in the church.
    6. People are worms in the eye of God

    I am sure that you think you can prove to us how biblically illiterate we are. Well, I can do the same with TGC, 9 Marks, CBMW. It is really quite easy.

    God has given us common grace. That means that we can tell some things are right and wrong and weird quite easily. Why don’t you prove to me how our blog posts are unbiblical? Let’s actually see if you can do so. The problem you have is that the Deebs are quite orthodox in their theology and you will be hard pressed to prove otherwise. People have sure tried. You will be reduced to calling us gossips and flinging around the slander word.

    Finally, I believe that Christians better darn well see how their pronouncements are received by a watching world. We allow anyone to comment here unless they become abusive. So, instead of spending your time trying to prove how biblical you are and how unbiblical they are not, spend some time thinking about this.

    Is this how the world see us? What are we doing wrong?

  230. Velour wrote:

    He is an arrogant, self-centered, hateful, unloving man which is why they left.

    I did not have any issues with Dever personally. I basically left for two reasons: the people I went with started to get a little cliquish and it annoyed me and then I moved away.

    That was a long time ago, so I can’t say what has changed. I know I did enjoy Dever’s preaching at the time. And there were wonderfully little old lady potlucks. I hope they haven’t gone away.

  231. dee wrote:

    The problem you have is that the Deebs are quite orthodox in their theology and you will be hard pressed to prove otherwise. People have sure tried. You will be reduced to calling us gossips and flinging around the slander word.

    Don’t forget “bitter”.

  232. Velour wrote:

    How about when I wear my bike pants with a t-shirt that says, “Cinnamon Rolls Not Gender Roles”?

    I can get behind that slogan.

    I have fond memories of attending San Diego Comic Con many-many years ago (before it moved to the current convention center) and having Giant Cinnamon Rolls from Hell (actually from Horton Plaza up the street) for breakfast.

  233. dee wrote:

    Plus you can learn all about the sanctified testosterone theories of CBMW.

    You mean the Sacred Fluid of Priapus?

  234. Max wrote:

    Just as SBC’s Calvinist founders felt during the Civil War. Those slave-holding pastors and deacons thought sovereign God was surely on their side during the war until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. After the war, enlightened Southern Baptists distanced themselves from their Calvinist roots, remaining non-Calvinist in belief and practice for over 150 years … until the new reformers came along and started taking everybody back into bondage to Calvin.

    “Oh, the more it changes
    The more it stays the same;
    And the Hand just rearranges
    The players in the game…”
    — Al Stewart, “Nostradamus”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkxsy4TByzU

  235. Lea wrote:

    Oh see, when men are deceived it’s because of evil women. When women are deceived it’s because women are stupid and evil.

    It wasn’t women “who accepted Nine Rings of Power from Sauron the Deceiver”…

  236. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    How about when I wear my bike pants with a t-shirt that says, “Cinnamon Rolls Not Gender Roles”?
    I can get behind that slogan.
    I have fond memories of attending San Diego Comic Con many-many years ago (before it moved to the current convention center) and having Giant Cinnamon Rolls from Hell (actually from Horton Plaza up the street) for breakfast.

    H.U.G.,

    I love my breakfast pastries! The ones in San Diego sound delicious.

    Have you heard of Lulu’s in San Antonio, TX? They make 3-pound cinnamon rolls!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBOuugZxx4Q

  237. linda wrote:

    May real Baptists everywhere unite and throw the bums out!

    Well, there are fewer and fewer of us who remember that the essence of being a Baptist is being free of the constraints placed on our consciences by other humans. It never ceases to amaze me how much the younger folks (under 40) are so eager to follow a guru instead of the Holy Spirit and the Bible the Spirit inspired. I’m writing from the viewpoint that these conservatives claim to hold and which I hold.t I’m consistent. They violate what they say they believe by what they actually do. That is why I believe that the SBC will never be truly Baptist in a generation. Church autonomy is a sick joke. The priesthood of the believer has been outlawed for all practical purposes. Those are Baptist distinctives that I do not see coming back, and they are actually held in contempt by many younger Southern Baptists who are Gospel Glitterati Globalists.

  238. Root 66 wrote:

    I saw that same video on a site called “churchfight.com” The site no longer seems to exist, but I’m glad this video is still around.

    Interesting you found this. Churchfight was a spin off project by some of our members that were concerned the problems FBC Sapulpa were facing were being played out in other SBC churches. The goal was to warn others about these maniacs the seminaries were cranking out. (both the Cal and the non-Cal) Unfortunately most of the people working on this project concluded the SBC is doomed and decided to abandon the project and the website.

    After seeing the SBC function on the national level the same disgusting way FBC Sapulpa was functioning on the local level many people we just done. There is too much secrecy. There is no financial transparency in any of the national SBC entities. The trustees are sworn to secrecy and some of the entity presidents are downright rotten. (See the lawsuit against Ezell)

    Many of the individual churches are still out there shinning their light but the denomination is in dire straights on the large scale. Sadly, if it becomes what men like Dever and Patterson want it to be, the SBC deserves the bitter end it is facing.

  239. linda wrote:

    May real Baptists everywhere unite and throw the bums out!

    As New Calvinism sweeps through the SBC, real Baptists are uninformed, misinformed or willingly ignorant about what’s heading their way. In their apathy, a tendency to do nothing has paralyzed them … I call it pew-nertia. The New Calvinists knew they would be easy pickins’ and have progressively captured most SBC seminaries, both mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and taken over a multitude of traditional churches. The giant has been asleep. Any effort to wake him up and stall the new reformation at this point would bet too little too late. But God …

  240. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    Many of the individual churches are still out there shinning their light but the denomination is in dire straights on the large scale.

    And the leadership of the Southern Baptists wonders why they are losing a whopping 200,000 living members a year!

    If they were the heads of a private company, they would have been fired and replaced.

    The saying in business is that it costs 10 times as much to gain 1 new customer as it does to keep an existing customer.

  241. jas wrote:

    Sad to see a 100+old church as fine as First Baptist church of Sapulpa being destroyed like it is. Even the so called former deacon leaders have became toothless lions it seems. Thanks to the Sapulpa Messenger and the faithful members who are trying to stop its demise, maybe more of the church members will wake up and clean house SOON. Otherwise, a fine establishment may go down in history. Pray for First Baptist Church and pray for the Sapulpa Messenger.

    Jas, maybe you can help.

    It’s hard to fathom but many of your fellow FBC Sapulpa members don’t have a clue what is going on. They’re told not to read the blog and that Satan is attacking their church. Meanwhile behind the scenes the church lords are busy eliminating all the people who have anything resembling an independent thought.

    Remember all that preaching we had about “brokenness” and the need for Christians to be broken? Remember how many times we were told “dead men have no rights”? Why all these depressing messages? This was to condition you to be passive sheep so you would not resist and go along with the changes. If you’re reading this, tell one of your FBC friends who has their blinders on to check out TWW. What is it hurting them to hear the full story? It would also be nice to see some more comments on here from other FBC Sapulpa members. There are a lot of stories that have yet to be told.

  242. Gram3 wrote:

    … the essence of being a Baptist is being free of the constraints placed on our consciences by other humans.

    This is so true Gram3. This is also the distinctive that is under the most serious attack. There is such an effort to standardize everything and kill the priesthood of the believer at all costs.

    This is why at Sapulpa, for example, the Sunday School classes are all cranking out the same cookie-cutter lock step church approved clones. They cut back on all programs that get people together where they can have thought provoking discussions. When they do endorse the gathering of members, such as the “home groups”, they require that the leaders discuss what the pastor preached about on Sunday morning. (cult tactic) Would you believe they actually have spies report back to the office if the group leaders don’t do as commanded? They do.

    Calvinists have been using these tactics since, well, John Calvin. In our case at least, it appears the non-Cal Paige Patterson is partially to blame for screwing up these guys in Oklahoma. Patterson came to FBC Sapulpa to try to “straighten us out” for the preacher. He preached a very odd rambling sermon. He also told us he was armed. Hard to imagine Jesus doing that on Sermon on the Mount.

  243. My sentiments as well! It would be so much easier to leave, but u are right, it is what the power-hungry pastor wants. This same scenario plays out over and over and over in churches and it’s sickening. People want so desperately to belong to a body of believers that most resembles what Christ intended, but unfortunately finding that genuine of a church is more difficult than finding a needle in a haystack. The church is hemorrhaging. It’s discouraging and disheartening. @ Jack:

  244. Gram3 wrote:

    I sense a generational issue here, however I am always available for a Gramsplainer.

    I sense a disturbance in the force…

  245. @ dee:
    I don’t know that you need disproving. I never said the blog posts were unbiblical. My question was why when people claim that something is unbiblical they do not cite the scriptures to support their claim. This is not unreasonable. I am not your enemy here though I am perceived to be. I have disagreements with some of the conclusions drawn on the blog but again I will say I appreciate what it is attempting to do. My questions and statements have been met with name calling and anger. It cannot be because of the strong nature of the words because this is a blog which feels perfectly at ease with making comparisons of people to the likes of Hitler and Mao Zedong without much push back. I made no personal attack but have been personally attacked in my short participation. I agree that the various incidents and overall issues raised here need to be addressed more thoroughly by the church. I wish you well in your purposes.

  246. @ Muff Potter:
    Gram, I appreciate your concern for the church and I also have concerns over what I would call idol worship among some in the church. Thank you for your time spent in responding to my questions. I found your first post to me insightful and helpful. I however do not believe my rhetorical style does not fit in here. I wish you well.

  247. @ Velour:
    I am older than some and younger than others. I have more education than some and less than others though I am continuing in my education. I cannot imagine how a handful of blog posts where I asked questions makes me controlling and immature but you are welcome to draw those conclusions just as I am. I wish you well.

  248. Jeremy wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I am older than some and younger than others. I have more education than some and less than others though I am continuing in my education. I cannot imagine how a handful of blog posts where I asked questions makes me controlling and immature but you are welcome to draw those conclusions just as I am. I wish you well.

    Jeremy,

    I asked you specific questions. Please give specific answers and quit beating around the bush.

    People here have repeatedly faulted you for not being direct.

    I work in law. We deal with facts. We’re direct.

  249. Jeremy wrote:

    I made no personal attack but have been personally attacked in my short participation.

    Jeremy,

    You have not been ‘personally attacked in [your] short participation” here. You were asked direct questions. Or give direct answers and asked by people to stop beating around the bush.

  250. Jeremy,

    Whom do you know at this church under discussion and what is your ‘dog’ in this fight?
    You left my very important question…unanswered. Curious.

  251. Jeremy wrote:

    My question was why when people claim that something is unbiblical they do not cite the scriptures to support their claim.

    Why doesn’t John Piper quote Scripture to prove that the tornado hit the Lutheran church because they married gays? Would you expect him to do so?

    Jeremy wrote:

    I am not your enemy here though I am perceived to be

    I hate to take the wind out of your sails but never once, in my short time contemplating your comment did I ever thing about you as the enemy. How do you know I perceive you to be the enemy? Is it just because I questioned you?

    Jeremy wrote:

    My questions and statements have been met with name calling and anger.

    I haven’t felt one bit of anger towards you. Frankly, I save my anger for churches who treat people as alleged in this post. Now, if you were one of those pastors, I might be.a tad miffed off.

    Jeremy wrote:

    this is a blog which feels perfectly at ease with making comparisons of people to the likes of Hitler and Mao Zedong without much push back.

    I am sure that you have never been the victim of church abuse. I bet you have never studied it in any great depth. I have over the last 8 years or so. I know when someone is making a comment that was born out of pain. I cut those commenters some slack in the matter.I wonder if you even thought about what that commenter was saying deep down inside. Do you have compassion for. the evident pain displayed in that comment.

    Jeremy wrote:

    I made no personal attack but have been personally attacked in my short participation.

    Once again, I do not think you were *personally attacked.* Perhaps you live in a bubble in which people all nod their heads politely and do not push back. I have no personal feelings about you, one way or another. Goodness! How could it be personal? I don’t know you. I don’t know if you are a man or women since all I have is a screen name. I know nothing of your allegiances. You are an enigma.I, along with others., are merely responding to your words.

    I am curious, however. You are a new commenter oat TWW. Welcome. You started your commenting here at this particular post. Are you familiar with this church? What was it about this post that moved you to comment?

  252. jas wrote:

    Pray for First Baptist Church and pray for the Sapulpa Messenger.

    I am and I have.. You all are blessed to have some folks with guts to stand up for what they believe. Just remember. Pastors are no different than the rest of you and have no greater power except what you give them. Don’t give it to them. Take it back and fight for what is good and just.

  253. dee wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I always knew you were a daughter of Stan!!

    LOL.

    I am also, as you can tell by my screen name, a daughter of “Satin” (sic).

  254. Jeremy wrote:

    My question was why when people claim that something is unbiblical they do not cite the scriptures to support their claim.

    Instead of a generic complaint, how about next time a reply to a specific claim. Posted here are comments, each is not a complete theological treatise and many can be thought of as part of years long conversations. Periodically certain ideas are given a more complete presentation but most often they are re-used and the background is understood from prior comment threads.

    And by the way, hyperbole is biblical.

  255. Lea wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Here’s the thing…I think it’s plain to see by real life examples that men are deceived. We have countless examples of them being tricked by gold diggers, beautiful women
    Oh see, when men are deceived it’s because of evil women. When women are deceived it’s because women are stupid and evil.
    Logic!

    Nope, you missed my point entirely and ignored the rest of my comment. When men are deceived, even when they are deceived by women who intend to deceive them, such as gold diggers and beautiful women and whoever else, it is because they are prone to being deceived. It is the man’s weakness. Just like women can be prone to being deceived. The point being, both genders can be deceived. It isn’t just women who are susceptible.

    Conversely, both women and men are able to be wise and discerning so that they don’t fall prey to deception.

  256. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    Remember all that preaching we had about “brokenness” and the need for Christians to be broken? Remember how many times we were told “dead men have no rights”? Why all these depressing messages? This was to condition you to be passive sheep so you would not resist and go along with the changes.

    Wait a doggone minute. Are you saying the pastor preached a sermon in which he called the body of Christ dead men? Since when are Christians referred to as being dead? We are alive in Christ. We have received Christ’s very life into our lives. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, Who gives us guidance. What kind of sick, twisted teaching tells Christians that they are dead?

  257. Darlene wrote:

    We are alive in Christ. We have received Christ’s very life into our lives. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, Who gives us guidance. What kind of sick, twisted teaching tells Christians that they are dead?

    That was never acclaimed in the ancient orthodox Christian faith, quite the opposite:

    ‘Dying, You destroyed our death. Rising, You restored our life. Lord Jesus, Come in glory’

  258. Darlene wrote:

    Nope, you missed my point entirely

    I didn’t miss your point, I was riffing.

    Obviously I think the ‘women are deceived and men aren’t’ thing is stupid. I don’t even know how to take it seriously it’s so wrong.

  259. Bill M wrote:

    Instead of a generic complaint, how about next time a reply to a specific claim.

    I tried to tell him the same , Bill. Maybe he’ll listen to you, but I think he rather enjoys talking vaguely. Harder to pin down.

    Also, now I”m wondering if ‘weasel words’ is considered an insult or a description?

  260. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    There is such an effort to standardize everything and kill the priesthood of the believer at all costs.

    This is why at Sapulpa, for example, the Sunday School classes are all cranking out the same cookie-cutter lock step church approved clones. They cut back on all programs that get people together where they can have thought provoking discussions. When they do endorse the gathering of members, such as the “home groups”, they require that the leaders discuss what the pastor preached about on Sunday morning. (cult tactic) Would you believe they actually have spies report back to the office if the group leaders don’t do as commanded? They do.

    Calvinists have been using these tactics since, well, John Calvin. In our case at least, it appears the non-Cal Paige Patterson is partially to blame for screwing up these guys in Oklahoma. Patterson came to FBC Sapulpa to try to “straighten us out” for the preacher. He preached a very odd rambling sermon. He also told us he was armed. Hard to imagine Jesus doing that on Sermon on the Mount.

    This sounds an awful lot like how SGM Survivors described their 'care groups'.

  261. Gram3 wrote:

    With respect to Bible verses, I was disaffirmed, keyed-out, dis-fellowshipped from a 9Marksy church for asking for Biblical support for various non-negotiable teachings which are currently fashionable among the Calvinistas. In other words, being a Berean is now grounds for church discipline. I never mentioned my questions to another person outside the elder board. That, Jeremy, is the current state of the conservative church today.

    Thanks for this comment Gram3 (the whole thing, not just the part I’m quoting). I have always found your thoughts very insightful! Glad you post here. Being a Berean should never result in sanction, no matter who it is… that it does in some churches is a real indictment of them.

  262. Velour wrote:

    I’m not believing what you said about John Piper.
    Oh yes, his former church Bethlehem Baptist has “disciplined” before all a godly Christian wife/church member of a large home-schooling brood of children for leaving her abusive husband of decades. I buy soap from her.

    Yes, and if you (Jeremy or anyone) haven’t read the story of the decades of emotional abuse Natalie endured in her marriage, and how BBC treated her when she finally had to escape it, you need to. This was absolutely heartbreaking to me and anyone else who thought BBC’s and Meyer’s new “Domestic Abuse Response Team (DART)” would be meaningful reform.

    https://emotionalabusesurvivor.com/who-burned-the-house-down/

  263. bendeni wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    read the story of the decades of emotional abuse Natalie endured in her marriage, and how BBC treated her when she finally had to escape it, you need to. This was absolutely heartbreaking

    Natalie is a Facebook friend of mine and I’ve read her story. You’re right, it is heartbreaking.

    I’ve asked her if she’d like to write her story for The Wartburg Watch, as Deb and Dee would love to hear her story. But Natalie told me that she’s not ready yet as she is waiting to finalize some details.

  264. Velour wrote:

    And the leadership of the Southern Baptists wonders why they are losing a whopping 200,000 living members a year! If they were the heads of a private company, they would have been fired and replaced.

    In mid-June, thousands of Southern Baptists will gather in Phoenix to watch their leaders slap each other on the back and sing kumbaya … while a once-great denomination – a yesteryear force for worldwide evangelism – falls short of the Great Commission entrusted to it.

    It’s a new day in SBC in which the totally depraved now rule, the unconditionally elected who arrogantly feel they alone were chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved. Smugly, this new tribe now in SBC leadership bands together to enjoy Christ’s limited atonement meant only for them – feeling they were drawn there by an irresistible grace that only a few can know. These new reformers persevere with their aberrant faith, while millions die in darkness as the SBC light flickers and goes out. Oh, there will be dissenting voices in Phoenix representing the majority of Southern Baptists who oppose this drifting theology and shifting ecclesiology, but their effort will be too little too late. The New Calvinists have won the day as the giant slept.

  265. dee wrote:

    Jeremy wrote:
    My question was why when people claim that something is unbiblical they do not cite the scriptures to support their claim.
    Why doesn’t John Piper quote Scripture to prove that the tornado hit the Lutheran church because they married gays? Would you expect him to do so?

    Oh, Piper does. See http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-tornado-the-lutherans-and-homosexuality — any time Piper explains God’s reasons for natural disasters, he relates it back to Luke 13 and the Tower of Siloam, that all natural disasters we escape are a warning to tremble at our own sin. He’s very consistent about it; you’ll hardly find any of his articles on the DG site without scripture references in them.

    But I think it’s beside the point — Jeremy’s question “why don’t people cite scripture to support their claims” is not the root issue. The reality is that scripture is always interpreted. Both complementarians and egalitarians believe Eph. 5 and Gal. 3 are true, and have no problem exegeting them (and other passages) as they explain their positions — which are diametrically opposed. The same with the Bible’s teaching on divorce… heck, the BBC elders have studied all those verses, and quote them in position papers, but they aren’t in agreement on what they teach! (The BBC Elder Affirmation of Faith is carefully crafted to allow elders with disagreeing views on this to all be able to sign it.)

    Jeremy, do you honestly think that the people here are just making stuff up, that they don’t know the Bible, that they don’t have a developed theology? If they added scripture references when posting here to oppose abusive practices tolerated in churches, would those references really be what tips you into agreement with them?

    Let me commend to you what I have found helpful: I think you would be better served by looking at pastoral and familial abuse square in the face, and reading the heartbreaking stories of those who have endured it, and how their churches treated them, and asking: Do I really believe the exegesis of pastors who think complementarianism is a first-order Gospel concern, who forbid divorce and discipline victims in cases of abuse, etc.? Is this really what the Bible teaches, what those verses mean? Or is this a false Gospel they are preaching?

  266. Velour wrote:

    I’ve asked [Natalie] if she’d like to write her story for The Wartburg Watch, as Deb and Dee would love to hear her story. But Natalie told me that she’s not ready yet as she is waiting to finalize some details.

    Glad to hear it! I would love to see her story here.

  267. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    There is such an effort to standardize everything and kill the priesthood of the believer at all costs.

    Welcome to the new SBC! New Calvinism has no room for long-held Baptist doctrines of priesthood of the believer and soul competency. In their world, the free church of Jesus Christ cannot operate … it must be micro-managed and controlled to the point of choking the spiritual life out of individual believers.

  268. bendeni wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I’ve asked [Natalie] if she’d like to write her story for The Wartburg Watch, as Deb and Dee would love to hear her story. But Natalie told me that she’s not ready yet as she is waiting to finalize some details.
    Glad to hear it! I would love to see her story here.

    Me too!

  269. dee wrote:

    I am curious, however. You are a new commenter oat TWW. Welcome. You started your commenting here at this particular post. Are you familiar with this church? What was it about this post that moved you to comment?

    Ever notice that whenever TWW blows the whistle on an abusive church and/or Pastor/Dictator, Pastor’s Faithful Attack Dogs (“Concerned Commenters”) come out of the woodwork to piously Defend The Faith?

  270. Gram3 wrote:

    It never ceases to amaze me how much the younger folks (under 40) are so eager to follow a guru instead of the Holy Spirit and the Bible the Spirit inspired.

    I remember hearing about some study where Millenials were polled on “What is the best system of government? Which system would you like to see in this country?”

    The winner? “Strong Leader”, i.e. FUEHRERPRINZIP.

  271. bendeni wrote:

    he relates it back to Luke 13 and the Tower of Siloam, that all natural disasters we escape are a warning to tremble at our own sin. He’s very consistent about it; you’ll hardly find any of his articles on the DG site without scripture references in them.

    I should have made myself clearer. What I meant is that Scripture describes that God gave Piper the ability to know His precise purpose of a tornado. Does Piper have a particular relationship with God that allows him to know precisely the meaning of an event?

  272. Hopefully members of FBC of Sapulpa will get more involved with what is happening to their historic church, and start asking questions.

  273. I would like to hear more about the YAH members who were asked to leave and more about the member who was told the reason for firing the associate was because he was stealing from the church, those are serious accusations.

  274. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Ever notice that whenever TWW blows the whistle on an abusive church and/or Pastor/Dictator, Pastor’s Faithful Attack Dogs (“Concerned Commenters”) come out of the woodwork to piously Defend The Faith?

    and when they do…

    1. They never address complaints directly
    2. They tend to tell everyone to stop talking
    3. We are accused, invariably, of slander and gossip

    And then they wonder why we don’t fall in line.

  275. @ Jeremy:
    You come out with guns blazing and then just go away with “I wish you well.” That does not sound like someone who wants to seriously engage. It sounds like someone who wants to shame and silence. Or be a concern troll. And that is because you asked for “aid” but then you never really asked any specific questions, did you, when people asked you? That is not wise.

  276. dee wrote:

    Does Piper have a particular relationship with God that allows him to know precisely the meaning of an event?

    I would like to meet the person who knows the precise meaning of some of the stuff that Piper writes and how it relates to the Bible verses that he sometimes attaches to it. When the adjectives are stripped out, and the prose is re-written and simplified and the verses and actually analyzed, his arguments are less than persuasive. Unless one is persuaded by the earnestness of his expression and his ***passion***.

  277. Velour wrote:

    I’ve asked her if she’d like to write her story for The Wartburg Watch, as Deb and Dee would love to hear her story. But Natalie told me that she’s not ready yet as she is waiting to finalize some details.

    If and when Natalie decides to share her story, we will publish it!

  278. Max wrote:

    It’s a new day in SBC in which the totally depraved now rule, the unconditionally elected who arrogantly feel they alone were chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved. Smugly, this new tribe now in SBC leadership bands together to enjoy Christ’s limited atonement meant only for them – feeling they were drawn there by an irresistible grace that only a few can know. These new reformers persevere with their aberrant faith, while millions die in darkness as the SBC light flickers and goes out. Oh, there will be dissenting voices in Phoenix representing the majority of Southern Baptists who oppose this drifting theology and shifting ecclesiology, but their effort will be too little too late. The New Calvinists have won the day as the giant slept.

    That is very well stated!

  279. jas wrote:

    I would like to hear more about the YAH members who were asked to leave and more about the member who was told the reason for firing the associate was because he was stealing from the church, those are serious accusations.

    I personally knew the associate pastor who was fired and I have never met a more devout christian, I believe he was fired because he wouldn’t go along with their plans.

  280. Max wrote:

    The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    There is such an effort to standardize everything and kill the priesthood of the believer at all costs.

    Welcome to the new SBC! New Calvinism has no room for long-held Baptist doctrines of priesthood of the believer and soul competency. In their world, the free church of Jesus Christ cannot operate … it must be micro-managed and controlled to the point of choking the spiritual life out of individual believers.

    Max, you are well informed, good to hear your opinions!

  281. Max wrote:

    Oh, there will be dissenting voices in Phoenix representing the majority of Southern Baptists who oppose this drifting theology and shifting ecclesiology, but their effort will be too little too late. The New Calvinists have won the day as the giant slept.

    See how God Wills in favor of His Predestined Elect/Speshul Pets?

  282. Max wrote:

    In mid-June, thousands of Southern Baptists will gather in Phoenix to watch their leaders slap each other on the back and sing kumbaya … while a once-great denomination – a yesteryear force for worldwide evangelism – falls short of the Great Commission entrusted to it.

    Just like Soviet Communist Party Congresses during the Cold War.

  283. Max wrote:

    Smugly, this new tribe now in SBC leadership bands together to enjoy Christ’s limited atonement meant only for them – feeling they were drawn there by an irresistible grace that only a few can know.

    Sounds like gnosticism. What is old is new again.

  284. Lea wrote:

    Obviously I think the ‘women are deceived and men aren’t’ thing is stupid. I don’t even know how to take it seriously it’s so wrong.

    One day, if someone really tries that line on me, I’m going to rain down the most fiery brimstone sermon on him about how Eve might have been deceived, but Adam chose to sin deliberately.

  285. Velour wrote:

    Jeremy,

    Whom do you know at this church under discussion and what is your ‘dog’ in this fight?
    You left my very important question…unanswered. Curious.

    I may have an answer for you Velour. Tell me what you think.

    Jeremy wrote:

    Gram, I appreciate your concern for the church and I also have concerns over what I would call idol worship among some in the church.

    https://twitter.com/_Dany_Daniel/status/838841114723508225

    See some strange similarities between this twitter comment and this mysterious jeremy fellow who just showed up here just for this post?

  286. Lea wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    Nope, you missed my point entirely

    I didn’t miss your point, I was riffing.

    Obviously I think the ‘women are deceived and men aren’t’ thing is stupid. I don’t even know how to take it seriously it’s so wrong.

    Okey dokey, a misunderstanding there. I’ll chalk it up to the challenges in cyberspace communication. 🙂

  287. Should be an interesting Sunday at FBC of Sapulpa. Everyone should try to reach as many members as possible and enlighten as many as possible to this blog and just maybe they will open their eyes.Wonder how many senior deacons, past and present are having second thoughts about their decisions that has brought FBC to this point.

  288. Smokey "removed" the Young At Heart" leaders from all three of their ministries because they stopped coming to hear him preach. They were caring and faithful servants to Senior Adults who needed a leader & a friend. Everyone is heartbroken over this. This is just the latest ambush by Smokey, Dany & their cronies, on the members of FBC, Sapulpa.

  289. Lea wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Congrats to Jeremy though, because I think ‘why don’t you quote more bible verses’ is a new one.

    What a dysfunctional way of looking at things. In their world, every time Christians have a conversation, they should be quoting the Bible to each other, accompanied by chapter and verse. I wonder if they constantly quote Bible verses to their spouse, family members & friends.

    To be clear, I understand this religious behavior well. It is something we practiced with hyper-vigilance in my former cult. I can recall an incident from back then while in the midst of pealing potatoes, attempting to apply a verse to that menial tasks. Interestingly, I saw a video from comedian, John Crist, where he humorously imitates the Bible-quoting Christian for every minutiae of life.

  290. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Jeremy:
    You come out with guns blazing and then just go away with “I wish you well.” That does not sound like someone who wants to seriously engage. It sounds like someone who wants to shame and silence. Or be a concern troll. And that is because you asked for “aid” but then you never really asked any specific questions, did you, when people asked you? That is not wise.

    Perhaps because the intention was never to seriously engage in the first place. Perhaps it’s because some Christians are uncomfortable having conversations when chapter and verse are not quoted after every comment. Whatever the reason, it would seem he left justified in his own eyes.

  291. Lea wrote:

    How TWW commenters should talk:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzEL4h1vq7o

    Oh my, Lea. That’s the video I saw for the first time yesterday! It’s quite apparent from the comment threads in his videos, that many Evangelicals are clueless when it comes to the behavior Crist is exposing in their camp through humor. I completely get it because I was once *that* person. A walking-talking-quoting Bible from sun up to sun down.

  292. ishy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Obviously I think the ‘women are deceived and men aren’t’ thing is stupid. I don’t even know how to take it seriously it’s so wrong.

    One day, if someone really tries that line on me, I’m going to rain down the most fiery brimstone sermon on him about how Eve might have been deceived, but Adam chose to sin deliberately.

    Yep. And not only that, but when God came a-calling on the couple afterwards, it was Eve who fessed up and said she had sinned. Adam, on the other hand, deflected and pointed the finger at Eve, rather than take ownership of his sin. And it seems that Comp/Patriarchal churches follow the same pattern of Adam, only the finger is now pointed at evil Feminism as the cause for all the ills of society, and in the church.

  293. Darlene wrote:

    Max wrote

    Smugly, this new tribe now in SBC leadership bands together to enjoy Christ’s limited atonement meant only for them – feeling they were drawn there by an irresistible grace that only a few can know.

    Ah…. but they conveniently forget about Evanescent Grace taught by Calvin in his ‘Institutes’ – which throws a monkey wrench into that kind of presumption.

    Wow…I have no idea how everything turned out in blue. My comment is the last paragraph about Evanescent Grace.

  294. I just happened to recall something the pastor of First Baptist Church of Sapulpa said in a recent sermon. “Growing up, lying was no big deal; my dad was always more upset that we got caught than that we lied.” He always seems to have a very sketchy memory when confronted with things he has said & done, so I have no doubt he “won’t recall” saying that.

  295. Esther Crown wrote:

    I just happened to recall something the pastor of First Baptist Church of Sapulpa said in a recent sermon. “Growing up, lying was no big deal; my dad was always more upset that we got caught than that we lied.” He always seems to have a very sketchy memory when confronted with things he has said & done, so I have no doubt he “won’t recall” saying that.

    I recall him saying that Odd comment for sure.

  296. @ Darlene:

    No worries! I just wanted to gripe about that line of thought. So much of this is just bananas.

    And I totally want to ishy go off on someone about Adam. What a shock when I realized adam was basically standing right there. Makes a whole different story out of it

  297. Lea wrote:

    What a shock when I realized adam was basically standing right there. Makes a whole different story out of it

    Maybe he used Eve as an experiment – to see what would happen.

  298. Darlene wrote:

    My comment is the last paragraph about Evanescent Grace.

    Just as I was thinking that Calvinism could not get any more sick I now learn about this. Wow. What a disgusting theology. Who would worship a God who lies? But it does explain new-Calvinist behavior.

  299. Deb wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I’ve asked her if she’d like to write her story for The Wartburg Watch, as Deb and Dee would love to hear her story. But Natalie told me that she’s not ready yet as she is waiting to finalize some details.
    If and when Natalie decides to share her story, we will publish it!

    Thank you, Deb!

  300. Darlene wrote:

    Adam, on the other hand, deflected and pointed the finger at Eve, rather than take ownership of his sin.

    He didn’t just throw Eve under the bus. He also blamed God – “…the woman YOU gave me…” When I saw that, it repainted the story, too.

  301. Ken F wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    What a shock when I realized adam was basically standing right there. Makes a whole different story out of it

    Maybe he used Eve as an experiment – to see what would happen.

    That is my theory. He was curious.

    Then God called him on it and he got all flustered and blamed eve. Why does nobody make this into a ‘for all time’ trait of men? (I know why. )

  302. @ Deb:
    I tried to paint the dismal picture using the tenets of TULIP in my comment. As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, my heart breaks to see the denomination forfeit its denominational gifting in evangelism. Harvesting the elect is not the same as reaching whosoever will with the precious Gospel of Christ.

  303. Esther Crown wrote:

    I just happened to recall something the pastor of First Baptist Church of Sapulpa said in a recent sermon. “Growing up, lying was no big deal; my dad was always more upset that we got caught than that we lied.”

    That explains a lot…

  304. Darlene wrote:

    they conveniently forget about Evanescent Grace taught by Calvin in his ‘Institutes’

    New Calvinism is not the same as classical Calvinism in many aspects.

  305. Bill M wrote:

    The way you enter a room can determine the reception you will receive.

    And the way someone responds to a gracious response to a guns-blazing entrance is telling as well. I do not think that Jeremy is really looking for help or understanding as he said he was, though I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

  306. Jeff wrote:

    See some strange similarities between this twitter comment and this mysterious jeremy fellow who just showed up here just for this post?

    I do not know Dany or Jeremy, but I do know have some experience with the Calvinista Playbook. Jeremy’s interaction here fits my experience. I gave the benefit of the doubt and got approximately the same response from some pastoral pups who could not point me to the text in the Bible I had with me. Yet somehow I was wrong and dis-affirmed and keyed-out for questioning their authority. But they wished me well! That has nothing to do with Jesus but everything to do with power. And authority. Nothing to do with the Kingdom of Christ but everything to do with the kingdoms of men. But they will not listen because they know they are right and their necks are stiff and their ears are stopped as the Lord said.

  307. Darlene wrote:

    Perhaps it’s because some Christians are uncomfortable having conversations when chapter and verse are not quoted after every comment. Whatever the reason, it would seem he left justified in his own eyes.

    Jeremy, ironically, did not mention verses he was concerned about Wartburgers violating. When I got into trouble it was because I insisted on sticking with the actual text of the 66 books (not necessarily the Permanent Text of the ESV) and not following other Sacred Texts and High Priests of the Gospel Glitterati. Silly me, I thought the five Solas were still a thing and being a Baptist was still a thing in the SBC.

  308. Gram3 wrote:

    And the way someone responds to a gracious response to a guns-blazing entrance is telling as well.

    While we lack the non-verbal communication in online discussions, the tone of voice or facial expressions, there are still clues given by the authors of their underlying attitude. It is a sort of non-verbal verbal communication.

  309. Pingback: The IM Saturday Brunch: For Mom, Of Course! | internetmonk.com

  310. @ Sopwith:
    Hello, Sopy! (Waving happily from Africa)
    Good to see you commenting again, I have missed your active presence here. Hoping you are well.
    ATB
    Estelle

  311. Gram3 wrote:

    Yet somehow I was wrong

    I think vagueness and lack of specifics peppered with accusations is the biggest tell. Most of them flat out refuse to respond to anything specific. Maybe they’re afraid they’ll be clobbered with real answers?

  312. The “good” deacons won’t even read the blog because they were told that if they do then they don’t support the staff. And good grief many of the deacons are corrupt anyways. Unfortunately changing pastors won’t help. All of this is also largely due to the wealthy deacons in power.

    It’s also troubling that the pastors carry around recorders in their pockets. They’ll also use their phones to record trying to catch people saying stuff about the “leaders” so they can use it against them. Red flags are all over the place but hardly anyone wants to face the truth and deal with it.

  313. Ashley wrote:

    It’s also troubling that the pastors carry around recorders in their pockets. They’ll also use their phones to record trying to catch people saying stuff about the “leaders” so they can use it against them. Red flags are all over the place but hardly anyone wants to face the truth and deal with it.

    I just checked Oklahoma law, which permits recording without a person’s consent.
    http://www.okbar.org/members/BarJournal/archive2009/Novarchive09/obj8031cli.aspx

    If I were a member of this church, I’d slam my wallet shut and STOP donating money.

    And then look for another church. Or in the meantime, go out for a nice breakfast on Sunday mornings. Or sleep in. Or hang out a home. Something. Anything is better than the insanity and abuse that is being described.

  314. Ashley wrote:

    The “good” deacons won’t even read the blog because they were told that if they do then they don’t support the staff. And good grief many of the deacons are corrupt anyways. Unfortunately changing pastors won’t help. All of this is also largely due to the wealthy deacons in power.

    It’s also troubling that the pastors carry around recorders in their pockets. They’ll also use their phones to record trying to catch people saying stuff about the “leaders” so they can use it against them. Red flags are all over the place but hardly anyone wants to face the truth and deal with it.

    You said it right there, Wealthy deacons in POWER!!!!!

  315. WOW, Perhaps an audit from the IRS would be in the making, might surprise what they might find!!!!!

  316. Velour wrote:

    If I were a member of this church, I’d slam my wallet shut and STOP donating money.

    That happened a while back and they made a list of 30+ people that stopped giving and targeted them. Thank you for the Ok law info. It might be legal but to me it’s wrong.

  317. Ashley wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    If I were a member of this church, I’d slam my wallet shut and STOP donating money.
    That happened a while back and they made a list of 30+ people that stopped giving and targeted them. Thank you for the Ok law info. It might be legal but to me it’s wrong.

    From what everyone has described, it’s a sick place/cult.

    I’m glad that people are getting out.

    I and other people had to escape from an equally toxic, cultic, authoritarian church
    in (Silicon Valley) California.

  318. Another thing that needs to be said that i’ve never even seen on sapulpa messenger is all the sermon reruns. Smokey pastored fbc elmore city (first one he pastored) before fbc sapulpa. He only pastored there a year. When he came to fbc sapulpa he started repreaching every single sermon he ever did at elmore city. He stretched them out for TWO YEARS. God’s design for marriage, building out of brokeness, 1 corinthians, 1 john, colossians, acceptable worship etc. All reruns. This pastor gets paid over 100k a year. Now tell me what he done to get paid that much? And he plagarized his church blog posts. Seems to me God hasn’t laid a specific message on his heart to preach to fbc sapulpa. That wierd.

    “jeremy” the commenter above (possibly really dany, sure sound like him) wants a scripture reference? How about 1tim5:20. “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.” There are many witnesses. The pastors should be rebuked before all but corrupt deacons won’t have it. What a shame.

  319. Ashley wrote:

    When he came to fbc sapulpa he started repreaching every single sermon he ever did at elmore city. He stretched them out for TWO YEARS.

    Unfortunately, this is fairly common. A lot of pastors only have about 25 sermons and make them last a lifetime. It’s much easier to go to the file and repackage them a bit than go to a prayer closet to seek God’s face for a fresh word for His people. Of course, these are not men of God, just preacher boys.

  320. Max wrote:

    The following should be in the hands of every SBC pastor search committee:
    “Suggestions for Determining Whether a Pastoral Candidate Is a Calvinist” (Ronnie Rogers)

    Max,

    That’s actually a pretty decent document but you really have to keep an eye on that fellow.
    Along with Paige Patterson, Ronnie Rogers was the mentor of the current FBC Sapulpa pastor. Rogers considers himself a “disenchanted Calvinist” and wrote a book about it that he promotes constantly. In reality he has jettisoned a few of the unpopular points of Calvinism but retained many others (total depravity listed on his church’s “what we believe” for example) More importantly he holds to a strict authoritarian view and is a big believer in the Calvinist polity of elder rule congregationalism. Like most of these types of churches they just throw the word “congregationalism” in there so they can still be called baptists.

    Rogers is probably more obsessed with church discipline than anyone we’ve ever seen including Dever and Leeman. He just isn’t anywhere near as popular. He came to our church in order to teach the deacons that they exist to serve the pastors/elders (who he equates to apostles). Then began teaching how to do church discipline. This was a prelude to a planned constitution change at FBC Sapulpa. It was a good strategy. They figured they could scare the heck out of everyone so nobody would oppose the changes.

    However, we produced a video to warn everyone before they could move forward. It never even came to a vote. Didn’t want to risk the embarrassment of a defeat.

    Here is the video: https://youtu.be/jHdxXsmRO3s

    (We had to make sure people understood the connection between Patterson and Rogers and then tie all that in to the Constitution.)

    Rogers also has a book on church discipline he promotes like crazy. His church at Norman has disciplined numerous people over the years. Also angrily excommunicated some college kids for asking question without even having a congregational meeting as required. Usually the discipline coincides with a book promotion of his.

    Most people don’t know him the way we do. If there is interest we can post our private blog post on our main page on him. What he tried to help Patterson pull off at First Baptist Sapulpa really opened a lot of eyes. It also motivated a lot of people’s feet to run.

    Yea. We had Paige and Ronnie here and were able to withstand them but… there isn’t much left of this poor old church. Max, most of us probably share your sentiments you expressed elsewhere in these comments on the SBC. Your prophecy of the 2017 convention is spot on. Its no fun watching the slow motion car wreck at is the SBC.

  321. Ken F wrote:

    Wow. What a disgusting theology. Who would worship a God who lies?

    Liars & Manipulators who want Cosmic Justification for their lying & manipulation.
    “SEE? GOD DOES IT TOO! SEE? SEE? SEE?”

  322. Darlene wrote:

    A walking-talking-quoting Bible from sun up to sun down.

    Calvary Chapel or just Saturday Night Live?

  323. ___

    “Summarily Captured By The ‘Masterly’ Means Of Grace?”

    hmmm…

    While we must acknowledge that the sixteenth century theologian John Calvin taught some truth, we must also recognize and come to grips with the fact that he advocated much error as well, and that error must be examined in the light of holy scripture; come to terms with, and the error summarily rejected.

    Without this realization, and revivification, churches in the SBC will continue to fall prey to the overture of the Calvinist doctrines of grace. A clear dereliction of holy scripture.

    Present tense. It has become clear that this emasculation of the truth by means of some two plus years of incurious pastoral influence in this Oklahoma 501(c)3 longstanding religious establishment has reach an advanced stage of epic decrepitation.
    ___
    Titus 2:11; John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 6:1; John 1:11; Romans 5:2; Titus 3:5-7; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 12:15; 2 Peter 2:1; Jude 21; 2 Peter 1:10

    We feel the Holy Spirit all around us,
    Yet these pastors are turning up the heat,
    When we pursue believing in Jesus alone?

    What?!

    For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds…

    Full stop.

    What will render this errant religious man nefarious dust in the wind?

    Simple.

    The holy word of God.

    Kind people of God – Stand on it! & speak it boldly!

    This pastor is already standing upon sand.

    hahahahahaha

    Krunch!

    Never forget, the abuse of God’s people is smoke in the nostrils of the Holy One.

    (end of story)

    It is only a matter of time now…

    The effectual fervent prayer(s) of His holy ones avail very, very much.

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    Lord, Give Me Steam?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AxqFHmIHQ0o

  324. Velour wrote:

    Ashley wrote:
    It’s also troubling that the pastors carry around recorders in their pockets. They’ll also use their phones to record trying to catch people saying stuff about the “leaders” so they can use it against them. Red flags are all over the place but hardly anyone wants to face the truth and deal with it.
    I just checked Oklahoma law, which permits recording without a person’s consent.
    http://www.okbar.org/members/BarJournal/archive2009/Novarchive09/obj8031cli.aspx
    If I were a member of this church, I’d slam my wallet shut and STOP donating money.
    And then look for another church. Or in the meantime, go out for a nice breakfast on Sunday mornings. Or sleep in. Or hang out a home. Something. Anything is better than the insanity and abuse that is being described.

    I’m with you, Velour. This place doesn’t sound like a church. It sounds more like a prison where snitches abound!

  325. Velour wrote:

    Ashley wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    If I were a member of this church, I’d slam my wallet shut and STOP donating money.
    That happened a while back and they made a list of 30+ people that stopped giving and targeted them. Thank you for the Ok law info. It might be legal but to me it’s wrong.
    From what everyone has described, it’s a sick place/cult.
    I’m glad that people are getting out.

    Sometimes a people have to know when to count their losses and run. Sometimes a church is just a church in name only and the environment is so toxic that the only healthy and sensible choice is to leave.

  326. Darlene wrote:

    This place doesn’t sound like a church. It sounds more like a prison where snitches abound!

    Exactly, Darlene.

    Abusive churches are made because of abusive leaders.

  327. joe wrote:

    Ashley wrote:

    The “good” deacons won’t even read the blog because they were told that if they do then they don’t support the staff. And good grief many of the deacons are corrupt anyways. Unfortunately changing pastors won’t help. All of this is also largely due to the wealthy deacons in power.

    It’s also troubling that the pastors carry around recorders in their pockets. They’ll also use their phones to record trying to catch people saying stuff about the “leaders” so they can use it against them. Red flags are all over the place but hardly anyone wants to face the truth and deal with it.

    You said it right there, Wealthy deacons in POWER!!!!!

    Ashley, could they be described as (serial tapists)?

  328. Harvey, your attempt at satire is very funny, if this was not such a serious matter, it would be even funnier, do they think they are the only ones taping conversations?Their are members who are deeply affected by their church being torn apart.Pray for those members and pray for the sapulpa messenger.

  329. @ The Sapulpa Messenger:
    Thanks for the information on Ronnie Rogers. I wasn’t aware of the items you note, and only familiar with him through the article I referenced. Following all these characters in the SBC (their good, bad, and ugly) has become exhausting. Speaking of “disenchanted”, that certainly is my feeling about the SBC these days.

  330. * __
    *
    “Something Else, Something Wonderful?”

    hmmm…

    howdee! Estelle,

    Cheeeeeeeeeese!

    Thank-You for thinking of me! (Imagine even from half across the world!) [tears] I am doing rather a lot better. Merci beaucoup ! I hope this grateful message finds you doing well, as well!

    * It is simply amazing what you can do with a bible and a positive attitude. Plant a couple of kind words and a verse or two in someone’s heart and watch them grow into something really wonderful…
    *
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K7i_NAg1ZbY

    ATB

    Sopy

  331. Lea wrote:

    How TWW commenters should talk:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzEL4h1vq7o

    This remimds me of something from Slacktivist’s page-by-page snarkalysis of Left Behind — something from one of the comment threads.

    It had to do with Volume 12, when Christ comes onstage at Armageddon and J-Day Aftermath. Apparently the Greatest Christian Author of All Time (GCAAT) was really terrified of “putting words in God’s mouth”, so ALL of Christ’s dialogue is reciting Bible-verse excerpts. Just like the Christianese in the above link. Epic Fail.

  332. Darlene wrote:

    Sometimes a people have to know when to count their losses and run.

    True. But there is generally a window where things can be stopped. If you are in that window, it might be wise to stick around and try.

  333. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    Usually the discipline coincides with a book promotion of his.

    A disgusting sales gimmick, to say the least!

    I wonder if traditional Southern Baptists over at SBC Today who promote the man and his ministry know this about Mr. Rogers. They currently have a piece posted by him over at their site:

    “The Friendship of Church Discipline and the Gospel”
    http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/the-friendship-of-church-discipline-and-the-gospel/

    I wonder if he would discipline Smokey Hurst for misusing discipline at Sapulpa the next time he wants to promote his books there? The Bible does not indicate that pastors are above correction and rebuke … and currently, in SBC life, they are some of the best candidates for it!

  334. Max wrote:

    I wonder if traditional Southern Baptists over at SBC Today who promote the man and his ministry know this about Mr. Rogers. They currently have a piece posted by him over at their site:

    Good question. All the more reason to publish the info we have on our public blog…

    He has two gimmicks that get him guest posts at SBC Today and that allow him to roll with Paige Patterson. They are church discipline and anti-Calvinism. Not all anti-Cals are the best candidates to represent the traditionalist position. The contents don’t always match the labels.

    These folks (Patterson, Rogers) who masquerade as anti-Calvinists are held up by traditionalists in the SBC as heroes without so much as a first glance at their other doctrinal stances or their disastrous record. Rogers’ church is elder ruled in name but actually functions more similarly to a pastor-ruled church. This is the model Paige Patterson promotes and, to be honest, it is probably more dangerous than the Calvinist elder-rule congregationalism fad. Either model is counter to the traditional baptist polity of congregationalism. “Democratic processes” in the BF&M of 2000 means just that. Done correctly it is one heck of a check and balance.

    What’s even more interesting about Rogers is that he claims to not be a Calvinist and may truly even believe himself. He even wrote a book that attempted to refute Calvinism but then everything he does, says, and practices and, apparently teaches his pastor trainees is Calvinist. Take a look at his recommended reading list and see how many reformed “theologians” you can count.

    http://www.trinitynorman.org/recommended-reading

  335. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    Max wrote:

    I wonder if traditional Southern Baptists over at SBC Today who promote the man and his ministry know this about Mr. Rogers. They currently have a piece posted by him over at their site:

    Good question. All the more reason to publish the info we have on our public blog…

    He has two gimmicks that get him guest posts at SBC Today and that allow him to roll with Paige Patterson. They are church discipline and anti-Calvinism. Not all anti-Cals are the best candidates to represent the traditionalist position. The contents don’t always match the labels.

    These folks (Patterson, Rogers) who masquerade as anti-Calvinists are held up by traditionalists in the SBC as heroes without so much as a first glance at their other doctrinal stances or their disastrous record. Rogers’ church is elder ruled in name but actually functions more similarly to a pastor-ruled church. This is the model Paige Patterson promotes and, to be honest, it is probably more dangerous than the Calvinist elder-rule congregationalism fad. Either model is counter to the traditional baptist polity of congregationalism. “Democratic processes” in the BF&M of 2000 means just that. Done correctly it is one heck of a check and balance.

    What’s even more interesting about Rogers is that he claims to not be a Calvinist and may truly even believe himself. He even wrote a book that attempted to refute Calvinism but then everything he does, says, and practices and, apparently teaches his pastor trainees is Calvinist. Take a look at his recommended reading list and see how many reformed “theologians” you can count.

    http://www.trinitynorman.org/recommended-reading

    Perhaps Ronnie Rogers is a mole.

  336. __

    “Is Calvinism As Taught By John Calvin In His ICR, Somewhat Bogus?”

    hmmm…

    Calvinism Foundational Truth: The Calvinist implies that since man is unable to understand, desire, or do the will of God, then it is impossible for a totally corrupt man to choose to put faith in God, an act of positive obedience (John 6:28-30; 8:24).

    huh?

    Calvinism Foundational Truth: They reason that since man is unable to choose faith, faith itself must of necessity be a direct gift of God. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God…Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift to the sinner (Steele & Thomas, p. 16).

    What?

    The Bible, however, points out that God designed the testimony of the written Word of God to produce faith in our hearts (Romans 10:17; John 20:30-31; Ephesians 1:13; Acts 15:7). These passages affirm that faith is our response to credible evidence recorded in the inspired Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16).

    The Bible expressly teaches that man has the ability to respond in faith to the Word of God.

    In the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23; Mark 4:3-9,14-20; Luke 8:5-8, 11-15) we are taught that within the hearts of men there are differences in understanding, commitment, and priorities that cause various responses to the Word of God.

    (Please do not overlook that one of the hearts, illustrated by these differing soils, was called “good and honest” (Luke 8:15) before the seed was sown. It was this nature of the heart which allowed the Word of God to be received. )

    —-> With Calvinism a naturally receptive “good and honest” heart is simply not possible.

    Yet, Jesus himself made man personally responsible for his faith: “unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24).

    (Sadly, Calvinism teaches that one must receive the Holy Spirit before one can have faith.)

    Yet, Scriptures teach that it is “after” we believe that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13).

    Also, Calvinists make a comparison of a dead body to a dead spirit and speculate,

    “If a dead body cannot respond to something offered to it, how can a dead spirit respond to the gospel, unless God gives it life to respond?”

    Yet, Jesus uses imagery speaking of those who would hear His word and believe when He says,

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live” (John 5:25).

    Jesus here says that an individual can “hear,” and those who would believe would live.

    Might want to re-think John Calvin’s theology system a bit, huh?

    ATB

    Sopy

  337. ___

    Abused Believer: “A Rest And Recovery Program?”

    Calvinist activist: “Sounds like this congregation of poor ignorant souls aren’t ready for the whole truth’ yet. Bless their hearts…”

    hmmm…

    R U being railroaded and absorbed into an abusive 501(c)3 Calvinistic theological system?

    What?

    Plug this into your browser: Calvinist church takeover

    ATB

    Sopy

    ___
    Reference (a recommended reading list) :

    Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, The: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen

    Breaking the Bondage of Legalism by Neil T. Anderson & Rich Miller & Paul Travis

    Churches that Abuse by Ronald M. Enroth

    Recovering from Churches that Abuse by Ronald M. Enroth

    Toxic Faith: Experiencing Healing From Painful Spiritual Abuse by Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton

    Faith That Hurts, Faith That Heals: Understanding the Fine Line Between Healthy Faith and Spiritual Abuse by Stephen Arterburn, Jack Felton

    Twisted Scriptures: A Path to Freedom From Abusive Churches by Mary Alice Chrnalogar

    The Drift into Deception: The Eight Characteristics of Abusive Christianity by Agnes C. Lawless, John W. Lawless
    Growing Up Fundamentalist: Journeys in Legalism and Grace by Stefan Ultsein

    Tired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderen

    Exposing Spiritual Abuse by Mike Fehlauer

    I Can’t Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult by Wendy J. Duncan

    The Heresy of Mind Control: Recognizing Con Artists in Leadership by Stephen Martin

  338. __

    “The Word Has Gone Forth?”

    hmmm…

    “there is a dangerous movement afoot and the proponents are very stealthy in regards to what they really believe—be careful…”

    Church folk aren’t listening.

    Yet, they are being forced out into the cold, their church buildings usurped and under new ownership.

    The tragic results are all too common.

    Beware!

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  339. The Sapulpa Messenger wrote:

    Rogers considers himself a “disenchanted Calvinist” and wrote a book about it that he promotes constantly. In reality he has jettisoned a few of the unpopular points of Calvinism but retained many others

    I, along with many others, thought Ronnie Rogers had distanced himself from Calvinism, recanting his former theology. We thought wrongly that he was implying that when he used “Disenchanted” in the title of his book. It appears, perhaps, that he is a classical “Old” Calvinist who has become disenchanted (disappointed) with certain aspects of “New” Calvinist belief and practice. His play on words has given him a bigger audience within SBC life.

  340. I was present one Sunday morning when the pastor of First Baptist Church Sapulpa said from the pulpit: “Growing up, lying was no big deal; my dad was always more upset that we got caught than that we lied.” No big deal, huh? I believe lying is a big deal to God since He addressed it with one of the Ten Commandments.