Serious Allegations: Did the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America Cover Up Tom Chantry’s Alleged Molestation of Children?

“You are asking us to lie, Colonel?"
"I am asking you to omit. Surely, amidst the…the infinite gradations of human venality, that particular sin ranks low."
The old man kneaded the folds of his throat. "What happened out there belongs out there. The jungle has it; let the jungle keep it…” 
― Louis Bayard, Roosevelt's Beast link

screen-shot-2016-12-28-at-4-28-00-pm
I put these pictures here so we don't forget the beautiful in the midst of the ugly.

Update 12/31/16: At the request of the family, both Todd and I removed the pictures of Tom Chantry's children even though their faces were blurred.

On December 26 2016, our official TWW hero, Todd Wilhelm, posted an update on Tom Chantry. Part of the post reviewed the information we had posted on this site.

What is the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA)?

Here is their purpose from their website.

The ASSOCIATION OF REFORMED BAPTIST CHURCHES OF AMERICA (ARBCA) was founded on March 11, 1997. On that day at the Cornerstone Church in Mesa, AZ the first General Assembly met to establish a charter membership of 24 churches from 14 states. Now in 2016 there are 59 member churches. 

Association churches cooperate in four areas:  

Home Missions
Member churches may present a home missionary to the Church Planting Committee for support to help them plant a church. 

Foreign Missions
The Reformed Baptist Mission Services (RBMS) is a service organization that assists local churches in sending men to plant churches in countries around the world.  

Theological Education
The Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies (IRBS), located in Escondido, CA, gives our called men five Baptist courses on the campus of Westminster Seminary California.  The men receive an M.Div from WSC and a certificate from IRBS. 

Publications
Reformed Baptist Publications (RBP) publishes helpful booklets that are marketed by Solid-Ground Christian Books. 

In addition to the cooperative efforts (ARBCA) is designed to advance Christ's kingdom by providing a fellowship in which churches of common confession may find mutual encouragement, assistance, edification, and counsel.  ARBCA can provide an organized forum of godly men, each holding to the same confession of faith, to help churches work through various difficulties together. As needed, it can also serve the interest of individual church members whenever "any member of any church is injured, in or by any proceedings in censures not agreeable to truth and order. . ." (London Baptist Confession, 26:15).

Contact Info

Telephone:(717) 249-7473
Postal address:
P.O. Box 289, Carlisle, PA 17013
Fax:(717) 258-0614
Email:  arbca@reformedbaptist.com

On the history page, it states:

"The purpose of this Association is to advance Christ's kingdom by providing a fellowship in which churches of common confession may find mutual encouragement, assistance, edification, and counsel, and may participate in cooperative efforts such as home missions, foreign missions, ministerial training and publications all of which are often beyond the scope of one local church.  Other such efforts as the Association may also deem appropriate are included."

The reader will note once again that the association was intended to be a working association, not merely an occasional or regular gathering of friends and faithful churches for times of fellowship – as valuable as that is.  The purposes are fourfold and practical: foreign missions (after the merger of RBMS and ARBCA in 2000), home missions, ministerial training, and publications.  To paraphrase the paragraph, ARBCA exists to afford ecclesiastical commendation, communion, counsel, and mutually agreed upon cooperation.  

This association allegedly investigated the original allegations (is that enough alleges for the critics?) and then did not release the report.

Reportedly, ARBCA launched an investigation into the allegations against Tom Chantry at the request of his former church, Miller Valley Baptist Church in Arizona. You can read about the allegations here.

Bombshell comment by anonymous reader:

An anonymous reader claimed that he/she was privy to the investigation that ensued and left a couple of comments on Todd's post. Although this comment is found in the post, it is so important that I want to highlight it here.

Dear Todd,

                    Thank you for your reply.  First let me tell you about how I know about this information.  I have been associated with this association of churches since it began in 1985 as the “Reformed Baptist Mission Services”.  It became the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA)… I remained there until 2009 and was…  I continued my association with ARBCA as a…  The bio is current to this point.  I have been working…  2012 and now live in… 

                      I was aware of the investigation through the ARBCA…  (who incidentally is…).  His name is…  a dear friend. When Chantry’s actions were discovered the church contacted the association to settle the conflict between the church and the pastor as is called for in their confession.  The Administrative committee assigned a three man sub-committee to conduct the investigation and report back to the them. One of the three men on the committee was Pastor… additionally they assigned a pastor who had formally been an investigator in New York and an Elder from Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, PA, who was a lawyer.   The report was only seen by a select group of people.  I am not sure what conclusions or recommendations the committee gave, except that the actions of the AC caused a great rift among the men who had any knowledge of its findings. Furthermore, many church members left the church divided over the actions.  I am also led to believe that the current pastor, Chris Marley was given a copy of the report to read when he became pastor of the church.    

             As coordinator,…  ex-officio member without a vote, on the Administrative committee at the time, but I am not even sure he ever saw the report although he was aware of the photos of the abuse.  Furthermore, I cannot confirm if the sexual abuse was known to the committee.   I am sure that the AC  has been very sure to keep the findings buried and worked very hard to clean Chantry’s record publicly and to protect him at all costs.  

                    There is more but that is the jest of my knowledge…  I think there is much more to be discovered and it my hope that Pastor Marley is speaking to the authorities, despite his silence publicly. Additionally, contact with the committee members who did the investigation and…  would also shed light.  As an aside these men are no longer associated with ARBCA.  I doubt you will get anything but silence from ARBCA. 

Praying for the light of truth to bring justice that pleases God,
regards,

Bombshell comment by Jeff Crippen

Jeff Crippen is a friend of TWW. He is both a pastor of a Reformed church and runs the website A Cry For Justice which deals with domestic violence and the church. He has written an excellent book on the subject A Cry for Justice: How the Evil of Domestic Abuse Hides in Your Church​ which this blog heartily recommends. (Remember- we do not take kickbacks for book recommendations.)

On 12/14/16, I noticed that Barbara Roberts and he had written a post about Chantry. Evil is Using “Unconditional Respect” to Hide Itself Among us. And questions about the Case of Ps Tom Chantry. I had planned to ask Jeff if we could reprint his post here and then things got lost in the report of Chantry's arrest.

I wish I had gone back to carefully read this post because Crippen discussed his concerns regarding ARBCA, especially since his church used to be a members. Here are some question he had. Please read the whole post and I will speak to Jeff about reprinting it here.

If Tiffany Stoiber’s report is correct and elders, parents, and other church members were “not happy with the end result” of the Church Association’s investigation, how come Chantry was able to go on pastoring in other churches and teaching in a school?

If Tiffany Stoiber’s report is correct, how could the representatives of the Church Association which investigated the claims back in year x (whatever year they did their investigation) not feel duty bound to report the allegations to the police?

If Tiffany Stoiber’s report is correct that Chantry had “admitted to spanking some kids at the church and said that ‘maybe he had taken it too far’  … apologized to one of the families and left the town a few days after” — is it likely that Chantry was above reproach from then on?

A pastor who admits to ‘maybe’ spanking kids too hard and apologises to one (but not all) of the families and leaves town a few days after — is there not a question mark over his reputation, by (a) his own admission and (b) the fact that he skipped town so rapidly?

How could any later churches Chantry pastored after he left Arizona be confident he was above reproach?

Did the unhappy church in Arizona get the opportunity to pass on to other churches their warning about Chantry — how and why they thought he was not above reproach?

Did the Arizona church try to tell others in their stream of Christendom, only to find their testimony discounted?

What did the Church Association Representatives who investigated Chantry’s Arizona conduct do? Or not do?

On December 27.2016. Jeff Crippen left the following nuclear comment for Todd.

Myself and the church I pastor were members of ARBCA for a few years but left that association a few years ago when it became obvious to us that a small clique of power-brokers had taken over the reins. They used a minute doctrinal point to drive many churches and missionaries out of the association but in fact the schism, as we now know, existed in secrecy long before. I confronted these men and received nothing but bullying, denial, and “if you don’t like it then get out” response. 

As stated in your article, the legal system holds that Tom Chantry is innocent until proven guilty. The charges against him are allegations. However, a guilty verdict in a criminal court is not required for the church to determine if a man is “above reproach” as the Apostle Paul instructed as a requirement for the pastoral ministry. 

I have spoken to people who do in fact know the facts about the Chantry coverup. Yes, there was certainly a coverup by ARBCA although most of us had no idea the situation even existed. Those who served on the investigative committee that looked into the allegations at Miller Valley against Chantry VERY MUCH need to come right out in the public view and tell the world that in fact there was a recommendation for the charges against Chantry to be announced to the entire association. If myself and others are wrong about that, then I ask the members of the investigative committee to say so publicly. But I believe you will find that this recommendation was squashed by some of the very same bullying individuals who are still hold power in the association. 

And so what happened? No one came forward. Chantry went off to another church in Washington state, then off to teach in a Christian school. How is it even possible that a school would hire him if they knew about the charges that had been laid against him back in Arizona? I seriously doubt they even knew. If there were more abuse at that school, everyone who has remained silent shares the guilt in it. Again, if I am wrong and the school really did know about the allegations made against him in Arizona, let them say so publicly and admit their fault. 

Then, off Chantry goes to become a pastor. How is that even possible? And not only was he a pastor, he became a big shot among reformed baptists!!! 

AND THEN the sorry state of affairs continued as, in I believe 2015, Chantry and his church were admitted into ARBCA as members!!! And I also believe you will find that the Miller Valley church in Arizona protested that action to no avail and resigned from ARBCA themselves. If that is wrong, then please tell us. If it is the truth, then shout it out. 

It’s housecleaning time brothers and sisters!! Tell your stories. Let’s find out who is responsible for covering this whole thing up, and let’s hold them accountable for it. The division in ARBCA was NOT the result of “an honest disagreement over doctrine” between brothers in Christ. No. Stop thinking that or saying it. The division happened because there is sin in the camp and the Lord has set up to expose it.

The following is Todd's original post that generated this feedback. There is much to discuss here. After reading your comments, I intend to send this post to ARBCA and ask for a statement. If I don't get one, then it is time for the media to get involved. I have already alerted on source.

Todd, we have you to thank for posting this. If you hadn't, I am not sure these allegations would have come to light. Thank you, as well, to Jeff Crippen and *anonymous.* Please let us know if you get pushback from ARBCA. 


 

“The truth we are reluctant to face is that there is no depravity and no cruelty that is beyond the ingenuity of quite ordinary people who are otherwise amiable and even conventional!”
-Martin Lloyd-Jones, “Love So Amazing,” page 169

Tom Chantry was in court on December 16, 2016; four days later he was locked up in the Yavapai County jail located in Camp Verde, Arizona. Chantry has been indicted on five counts of molestation of a child and three counts of aggravated assault with serious injury.

For the record Chantry is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law or pleads guilty to the charges.  That said, he is not in an enviable situation. A prosecutor does not seek a Grand Jury indictment unless he believes that the case has a reasonable likelihood of a conviction at a trial. (Link)

 

There has been speculation as to the reason for Chantry’s arrest.  I believe it is a simple matter of Judge Astrowsky complying with Arizona law. Dangerous defendants are not to be allowed bail in Arizona. Chantry meets the requirements for a dangerous defendant, therefore his bail was revoked and he was jailed.

“Our attempts to protect the rule of law throughout the year too often faced determined opposition. Our arguments, however, were sound, and we were heard. We were successful in both passing Proposition 100 in 2006 and forcing proper implementation of the law in 2007. Dangerous defendants are being held without bond under this law, and the community is safer for it.”
-Andrew Thomas, “Defending the Law, Delivering Justice,” Maricopa County Attorney’s Office 2007 Annual Report (Link)

13-3961.  Offenses not bailable; purpose; preconviction; exceptions

A. A person who is in custody shall not be admitted to bail if the proof is evident or the presumption great that the person is guilty of the offense charged and the offense charged is one of the following:

1. A capital offense.

2. Sexual assault.

3. Sexual conduct with a minor who is under fifteen years of age.

4. Molestation of a child who is under fifteen years of age.

Barring a jury returning a “not guilty” verdict, Tom Chantry is facing an extended time behind bars.

Chantry was the pastor at Christ Reformed Baptist Church in Hales Corners, WI. The church website still shows Chantry on a leave of absence.  The church is a member of the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA). The ARBCA has scrubbed Chantry’s name from their website.

In researching this article I came across the photo below. In the top frame Tom Chantry is shown with his father-in-law Al Huber. Huber is a pastor at Grace Reformed  Baptist Church located in Rockford, IL. (Link)

I believe Chantry attended Grace Reformed Baptist Church while he taught 5th and 6th graders at Christian Liberty Academy in Arlington Heights, IL, a suburb of Chicago. Chantry married Huber’s daughter half-way through his four year stint at Christian Liberty Academy. I believe Chantry was sent out from Grace Reformed Baptist Church to plant Christ Reformed  Baptist Church in Hales Corners, WI.



Al Huber has been frequently filling in for Chantry while Tom is on a “leave of absence.” Just a hunch, but I think Chantry’s leave of absence is going to be for an extended length of time. The church would be well advised to assemble a pastoral search committee.

Pastor Huber was kind enough to pray for Tom’s comfort at the end of his sermon on December 21st. Did anyone notice who pastor Huber didn’t pray for? That would be the multiple victims who reported they were molested and assaulted by Tom.  This is all too common of an occurence among the clergy. They are quick to rush to the defense of their colleagues, quick to assail those of us who write so called “discernment blogs” or “watch blogs,” accusing us of slander or of breaking the 9th Commandment, and yet one searches in vain for any words of comfort, concern or care for the very real victims.

My response?

There would be no need or demand for truth-telling blogs if our pulpits were filled by  principled individuals who had the courage to speak the truth and care for hurting  people! Instead our pulpits are filled with corrupt cowards intent on keeping their corporations afloat. Do I need to name names?

 

“Too much has fallen silent here.”
-Wendell Berry, “Where,” Wendell Berry, New Collected Poems, page 204

Look at the comment below.  I received it earlier today. Regrettably, the ARBCA appears to have followed the same pattern Sovereign Grace Ministries utilized when facing a sexual abuse scandal, the same pattern the Roman Catholic church utilized!

Of course Chantry’s defenders will be quick to say anyone could fabricate this story.  It is more slander, more breaking of the 9th Commandment.

I happen to believe it to be true. I also believe the ARBCA has a lot to answer for. And some unsolicited advice for Tom Chantry – cop a plea! Your goose is cooked.

 

For ease of reading, here are the words which were not redacted from the screen shot above:

Dear Todd,

                    Thank you for your reply.  First let me tell you about how I know about this information.  I have been associated with this association of churches since it began in 1985 as the “Reformed Baptist Mission Services”.  It became the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA)… I remained there until 2009 and was…  I continued my association with ARBCA as a…  The bio is current to this point.  I have been working…  2012 and now live in… 

                      I was aware of the investigation through the ARBCA…  (who incidentally is…).  His name is…  a dear friend. When Chantry’s actions were discovered the church contacted the association to settle the conflict between the church and the pastor as is called for in their confession.  The Administrative committee assigned a three man sub-committee to conduct the investigation and report back to the them. One of the three men on the committee was Pastor… additionally they assigned a pastor who had formally been an investigator in New York and an Elder from Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, PA, who was a lawyer.   The report was only seen by a select group of people.  I am not sure what conclusions or recommendations the committee gave, except that the actions of the AC caused a great rift among the men who had any knowledge of its findings. Furthermore, many church members left the church divided over the actions.  I am also led to believe that the current pastor, Chris Marley was given a copy of the report to read when he became pastor of the church.    

             As coordinator,…  ex-oficio member without a vote, on the Administrative committee at the time, but I am not even sure he ever saw the report although he was aware of the photos of the abuse.  Furthermore, I cannot confirm if the sexual abuse was known to the committee.   I am sure that the AC  has been very sure to keep the findings buried and worked very hard to clean Chantry’s record publicly and to protect him at all costs.  

                    There is more but that is the jest of my knowledge…  I think there is much more to be discovered and it my hope that Pastor Marley is speaking to the authorities, despite his silence publicly. Additionally, contact with the committee members who did the investigation and…  would also shed light.  As an aside these men are no longer associated with ARBCA.  I doubt you will get anything but silence from ARBCA. 

Praying for the light of truth to bring justice that pleases God,

regards,

Below are a few screenshots from the Miller Valley Baptist Church. Initially, as I was checking into this story it did not make sense to me because I saw that the church was a member of the Reformed Baptist Network.  But upon further searching I found that they were members of the ARBCA beginning in 1998. I do not know when they quit the ARBCA; I wrote to pastor Marley and asked him when his church quit the ARBCA, as yet I have not received a response.

(Note from Editor) Brad Sargent, a friend of mine who does great research and contributes to Julie Ann’s Spiritual Sounding Board blog has checked the WayBack Machine for me and found that as recently as August, 2016 Miller Valley Baptist Church of Prescott, AZ was  listed as a member of the ARBCA.
 
Pastor Marley has not yet responded to my email requesting clarification of when his church quit the ARBCA.
 
Sometime between August, 2016 and December 26, 2016 Miller Valley Baptist Church has been removed from the list of ARBCA member churches. I leave the reader to speculate on what happened.
 
Update 12/28/2016 – Pastor Marley has emailed me and informed me that his church, Miller Valley Baptist Church, left the ARBCA this past summer and are a founding church in the RBN. He assured me that “we have cooperated with the police throughout the investigation since its inception last year.”


Comments

Serious Allegations: Did the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America Cover Up Tom Chantry’s Alleged Molestation of Children? — 201 Comments

  1. From the introduction: “Reportedly, ARBCA launched an investigation into the allegations against Tom Chantry at the request of his former church, Miller Valley Baptist Church in Arizona.”

    Could those with legal background clarify: If this investigation did occur, does that not constitute potential evidence for criminal cases and/or civil lawsuits? Also, if so, and that evidence is withheld, altered, or destroyed, does that potentially constitute “spoliation of evidence,” which could also be a crime?

    Thank you.

  2. You know this just brakes my heart and it is far more common than people realize. One book I read “Orphans of the Empire” google search Amazon. It deals with child migration after ww2 in England. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/feb/24/child-migrant-programme-slavery

    This went on in Canada, the US among the indigenous population and at the forefront of much of this was the church. In many cases, economics had a great deal to do with it, as it does with most things institutional. There is so much that needs to be done.

  3. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    all the images are fuzzy for some reason

    Perhaps Dee meant to do that to paint a picture of just how ghostly this whole sad situation is. These folks are lurking in shadowy corners of the church.

  4. These hyper-Calvinists remind me of Free Masons. There appears to be a secret society and blood pact where they protect each other.

  5. dee wrote:

    Max wrote:

    These folks are lurking in shadowy corners of the church.

    Sounds like Steven King.

    except this is non-fiction

  6. there is something truly evil about sitting in silence when you know about an abuser, having ‘been told not to talk about it’ ……

    for one thing, you KNOW
    for another: your silence makes you a part of the abuse
    and finally: you are the type who would blame your choice of keeping silent on the ‘fact’ that an authority in the Church told you not to speak up, which condemns you twice: once for not reporting the crime and twice for trying to blame your failure on ‘he told me to be silent’ as though THAT made a difference ….. it did, colluding with your authority just magnified the evil

  7. I was reading the post on crying out for justice earlier, its sickening to think that people may have know and didnt speak up. Sad that young children had to be exposed to an abuser because we cant rock the boat and call someone what they are.

  8. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Dee … all the images are fuzzy for some reason.

    Brad, when I view TWW posted images on Apple devices, they are often fuzzy. I find they are clear when viewed via a pc. I suspect the picture format isn’t supported by Apple.

    I thought it was just me until now. Anyone else have this issue?

    Great research! It’s mind boggling that no one held Chantry accountable and even turned him loose on other communities. I hope these men are legally held accountable themselves, if these allegations are true.

  9. ” On December 27.2016. Jeff Crippen left the following nuclear comment for Todd.

    Myself and the church I pastor were members of ARBCA for a few years but left that association a few years ago when it became obvious to us that a small clique of power-brokers had taken over the reins.”

    I wonder who made up the small clique. Is it known?

  10. Brother Maynard wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    You have to wonder what went through these people’s minds then and especially now that this is coming to light.

    how can people live with that kind of guilt, knowing that if they had spoken up maybe the children would have been spared abuse????

  11. @ dee:

    For whatever reason, they’re still all fuzzy. I’m using a PC with a 20-ish inch diagonal screen. I opened a window with Todd’s original post to check, and they’re all clear/legible. So, dunno. I may be a geek, but not a techy-geek unfortunately, so have no ideas on what to do for fixes. But thanks for trying, Dee!

  12. Remnant wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Dee … all the images are fuzzy for some reason.

    Brad, when I view TWW posted images on Apple devices, they are often fuzzy. I find they are clear when viewed via a pc. I suspect the picture format isn’t supported by Apple.

    I thought it was just me until now. Anyone else have this issue? …

    They’re blurry for me too. I’m on my desktop. I just checked my Kindle Fire tablet and they look fine there.

    dee wrote:

    @ brad/futuristguy:

    See if this is better. I just rebooted everything in the house that can be rebooted.

    Great work as always, Dee. Thanks to you and all the others who are working to expose this evil.

  13. Max wrote:

    Perhaps Dee meant to do that to paint a picture of just how ghostly this whole sad situation is. These folks are lurking in shadowy corners of the church.

    Thought maybe she was trying to protect us from the knowledge that TC’s father-in-law doesn’t look too much older than he is.

  14. Christiane wrote:

    Brother Maynard wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    You have to wonder what went through these people’s minds then and especially now that this is coming to light.

    how can people live with that kind of guilt, knowing that if they had spoken up maybe the children would have been spared abuse????

    Maybe I sound harsh and cold, but I don’t think they feel guilt. At least not then or right now.

  15. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Are all the images fuzzy or just certain ones? If so, which ones. On my Mac and I phone, they are clear.

    Also, how does the picture at the top of the post appear?That was done using a screen shot. Todd’s post was a straight copy and paste. Are those fuzzy? If so, maybe I should have done screen shots of the pictures.

    GBTC uses Mac as well and he doesn’t see a problem. Also, did you refresh your page after I solved my earlier tech problem?

    I want to try to figure this out because GBTC is going to stop by tomorrow and I would like to describe it to him. Thanks for you help.

  16. Talmidah wrote:

    Maybe I sound harsh and cold, but I don’t think they feel guilt. At least not then or right now.

    then how do we identify them as human?

    “If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
    If I am not for others, what am I?
    And if not now, when?
    (Rabbi Hillel)

  17. dee wrote:

    Sounds like Steven King.

    Well, let’s just say that some of these church leaders are “spiritual.”

  18. Christiane wrote:

    Talmidah wrote:

    Maybe I sound harsh and cold, but I don’t think they feel guilt. At least not then or right now.

    then how do we identify them as human?

    “If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
    If I am not for others, what am I?
    And if not now, when?
    (Rabbi Hillel)

    You ask a great question.

    Some people wear their faith like an overcoat. It only warms them, but does not benefit others at all. But others light a fire and also warm others. – Menachem Mendel of Kotzk

  19. ^^^ Woops – neglected to use quotation marks but y’all are smart enough to figure that out.

  20. Lydia wrote:

    there is always more to the story

    I’ll be glad when we get to the last sentence in the last chapter of this book.

  21. @ dee:
    Dee, you’re a Mac user! ❤️But, seriously, all of the images are fuzzy when viewed on my 2013 MacBook Pro running the latest MacOS in Safari.

  22. Hi Dee and Deb,

    Firstly, anyone is free to re-blog any post from A Cry For Justice, so long as you give a link back to the original post.

    Secondly, you’ve mis-spelled Jeff Crippen’s name in a subheading in your post.

    Thirdly, the post on A Cry For Justice ( Evil is Using “Unconditional Respect” to Hide Itself Among us. And questions about the Case of Ps Tom Chantry ) was written by both Jeff and me. The byline says it’s by both of us. I’d appreciate you making that clear in your post.

    Sorry if this sounds pernickety, but I like things to be accurate.
    Thanks for all your hard work, and for helping hold ARBCA’s feet to the fire.

  23. @ dee:

    The spectacular photo of the cosmos is perfect.

    All other screenshots look like they have a layer of matte contact paper glued over the entire surface of them. I can easily tell photos from text, and all the color is there in them and in any background (such as where the text has brown background), but all text is complete illegible in all the images imported/copied-and-pasted.

    Hope that’s of help. Technology is just inscrutable sometimes. Except to GBTC we hope!

    Thanks …

  24. Someone help me out here – but isn’t it a crime when you hold back information on a crime? Especially if the crime is child abuse, and the perpetrator keeps on committing the crime. If it’s not a crime, it should be. Maybe then these churches would quit letting the people who committed the crimes hide under their long coattails. After all, we can’t bring shame to the church. We have to protect her at all cost, even it is at the sake of the victims. I call this a bunch of ____ _____. Men that are preachers, ministers, pastors, reverends, or whatever they choose to call their selves are not infallible. All these men are power hungry. Take away their power and they start to fall apart, bit by bit. I’ve seen it happen before. It will continue till we put a stop to these men.

  25. I dont know if this helps but I have a windows machine right next to my mac and viewing them right at the same time, they all look clear on this end. Thanks for all the hard work. I hope everyone has a nice evening.

  26. Harley wrote:

    Someone help me out here – but isn’t it a crime when you hold back information on a crime? Especially if the crime is child abuse, and the perpetrator keeps on committing the crime. If it’s not a

    It is if you are a mandated reporter for any kind of child abuse. In my state (and I think the majority of states) mandated reporters are teachers/aides, coaches, medical personnel, spiritual leaders (but I don’t think that is necessarily true in all states). There are probably some categories that I am forgetting. Most guidelines also cover volunteers in churches and schools as well.

    Mandatory reporters can be fined and/or jailed if they fail to make a report. They cannot be prosecuted if the report is made in good faith-i.e. they honestly believe that they have some indication that abuse is occurring.

    Other people are not mandatory reporters. However, if Joe Q. Citizen is aware that his neighbor is beating his child, it just makes sense to call the authorities (at least it does to me). I think it would be the same if you suspected that a child was being abused in the church. I’m always appalled by how many people seem to know what was going when the church sexual abuse reports hit the news, but never thought they should report it. Whatever happened to righteousness for the sake of righteousness, especially when unholy acts are being committed on a child by a spiritual leader IN THE CHURCH?

  27. Barbara Roberts wrote:

    you’ve mis-spelled Jeff Crippen’s name in a subheading in your post.

    I think it was auto correct changing Crippen to Cripple. Too funny. Thanks for figuring it out.

  28. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    All other screenshots look like they have a layer of matte contact paper glued over the entire surface of them

    If it helps, the images are sharp in Internet Explorer but fuzzy in Firefox using the same computer. I didn’t try Chrome.

  29. Dee,
    Where the “pyro” guys that went after you part of the ARBCA crowd? or where they just hired “guns” to bully you to be quite also??
    As pointed about above, the ARBCA, if they really knew, are guilty of serious stuff…. and, I really wonder about these pyro guys… and finally, has anyone contacted the schools that this guy taught at?

  30. Harley wrote:

    isn’t it a crime when you hold back information on a crime?

    Church leaders in my State are mandated reporters for child abuse and neglect. Pastors and other church leaders who fail to report suspected child abuse or mistreatment are subject to criminal penalties.

  31. Bill M wrote:

    If it helps, the images are sharp in Internet Explorer but fuzzy in Firefox using the same computer. I didn’t try Chrome.

    Apple iPad Safari (AT&T) – clear photos

    Desktop computer: Mozilla Firefox – very fuzzy photos
    Microsoft Edge – NO PHOTOS AT ALL!!! Just text!

  32. This story has triggered some long ago memories for me.. In addition to my Fundy Baptist high school, I went to a 7 and 8th grade school from which my high school had grown out of 4 or 5 years earlier. Anyway, there was a science teaching in 7th grade that was very engaging, and given my interest/life in science, I enjoyed. Anyway, we was a bit odd, but good teacher, and I remember him taking me hiking to look for shells. Then, a number of months later he “left” and we never officially knew why, but there was rumors. I did confirm about 10 year ago that we was fired for “moral reasons”, but it was never officially told to us.
    While I do not remember any inappropriate actions, the very act that he took me hiking with no one else along is inappropriate. I would NEVER do that with any underage boy or girl!! This all happened in 1974, so this stuff is sure not new!
    So, I could have been one of the victims that the WW talks about!

  33. Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    Thought maybe she was trying to protect us from the knowledge that TC’s father-in-law doesn’t look too much older than he is.

    From the website of Grace Reformed Baptist Church, Rockford, IL: “Allen Huber was born in 1952 in Sparta Wisconsin”, so he is about 64. I do not know the age of Chantry. Is this marriage, to the Huber daughter, Chantry’s first and only marriage?

    Also, the 2016 General Assembly of ARBCA was hosted by Huber’s church from April 26-28, 2016. This was seen in a newsletter of a member church, THE FREE BAPTIST CHURCH, of LIMERICK, MAINE. It would seem this church is a leading church in ARBCA

    Huber’s bio on the church website also states, “Al embarked in a training program with NANC ( National Association of Nouthetic Counselors) and has been certified as a counselor by that organization. He has had many occasions to use his counseling gifts both inside and outside the church. For several years he served on the Board of Directors for The Biblical Counseling Center of Arlington Heights, Illinois where he received his NANC counseling training.”

    Was Huber a counselor to Chantry to “restore” him to ministry?

  34. Christiane wrote:

    Talmidah wrote:

    Maybe I sound harsh and cold, but I don’t think they feel guilt. At least not then or right now.

    then how do we identify them as human?

    You can’t.
    They’re so Spiritual(TM) they have shed all humanity.

  35. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    there is always more to the story

    I’ll be glad when we get to the last sentence in the last chapter of this book.

    The Never-ending Story has no last chapter.

  36. Max wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Sounds like Steven King.

    Well, let’s just say that some of these church leaders are “spiritual.”

    So Spiritual(TM) there’s no mortal human left.

  37. rasinwhiting wrote:

    Was Huber a counselor to Chantry to “restore” him to ministry?

    On the GRBC website, they link to 5 sermons preached there by Tom Chantry in October 2015.

  38. Serious Allegations: Did the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America Cover Up Tom Chantry’s Alleged Molestation of Children?

    Is a bear Catholic?
    Does the Pope poop in the woods?

    All you need to know is the word REFORMED Baptist.

  39. Bill M wrote:

    If it helps, the images are sharp in Internet Explorer but fuzzy in Firefox using the same computer.

    Same here.

  40. @ rasinwhiting:

    Chantry was born in 1969. I don’t know if he was married previously. I do know that it is very unusual for guys in the Reformed Baptist crowd to stay single well into their thirties. Another thing I haven’t seen brought up is that Tom’s father, Walter Chantry, basically started the Reformed Baptist “movement” back in the 1960s, and is something of an icon in those circles.

  41. Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    nother thing I haven’t seen brought up is that Tom’s father, Walter Chantry, basically started the Reformed Baptist “movement” back in the 1960s, and is something of an icon in those circles.

    Between that and the father in law, it’s just nepotism all around to me.

  42. Linn wrote:

    Whatever happened to righteousness for the sake of righteousness, especially when unholy acts are being committed on a child by a spiritual leader IN THE CHURCH?

    Sherman McCoy: “There’s one thing I can do. I want to see the truth come out, …, and there’s only one way to do that.”
    Mr. McCoy: “And what is that?”
    Sherman McCoy: “Lie.”
    Mr. McCoy: “Oh… you know I have always been a great believer in the truth. I have lived my life as honestly as I can. I, I believe in the truth as an essential companion to a man of conscience. A beacon in this vast and dark wasteland, that is our modern world. And yet…”
    Sherman McCoy: “Yes.”
    Mr. McCoy: “…in this case, if the truth won’t set you free, then lie.”
    – from The Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolfe, novel & film

    Peter Fallow explains, after all, “…, in the ’80’s making money and living well was all that mattered, and no one did it better than Sherman McCoy. Now he was a master of the universe.”

  43. What puzzles me – should these allegations against Chantry prove to be verfiably true – is Chantry’s very public behavior since leaving Arizona. Especially his involvement on the Pyromaniac’s blog. He commented at that site often & was shown respect by many who regularly commented there. If someone is guilty of child molestation, I would think they would want to keep a look profile.

  44. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    CJ Malhany does not keep a low profile, nor does Driscol!! They know no shame!

    I just can’t wrap my mind around this kind of behavior. They must have faith that their BFF’s will protect them.

  45. dee wrote:

    GBTC uses Mac as well and he doesn’t see a problem. Also, did you refresh your page after I solved my earlier tech problem?

    Ah, all fuzzy here on Firefox. But clear on Safari. I’ll look at the post.

    I want to try to figure this out because GBTC is going to stop by tomorrow and I would like to describe it to him. Thanks for you help.

    I am? I thought that went away after we fixed the problems with the middle east. 🙂

  46. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    Where the “pyro” guys that went after you part of the ARBCA crowd?

    I don’t know but a few of us were talking about this today. There seems to be an awful severe reaction to this particular story. We have written far more than this one. Something seems out of whack here.

  47. In my state every single person is a mandatory reporter. Most people don’t realize it, but if John Doe sees a child being abused or a child tells him they have been abused he is required to report it no matter what the relationship is. I don’t know if there is much of a punishment for not reporting though, it can all be done anonymously online. But if my child had been abused after they covered up that report, we would sue the organization and every single person involved. Conspiracy, intentional infliction of emotional distress, gross negligence…

    Correct me if I’m wrong or confused, but it seems like some people knew about the report and were unhappy with the way it was handled and left. Why didn’t they say anything at the time? Why did they keep silent?

  48. @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    I agree. I am waiting to see if I hear anything from the boys. Then I start forwarding this post to various individuals. I have already talked to one new source which is looking into this. I have many more to contact.

  49. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    then how do we identify them as human?

    You can’t.
    They’re so Spiritual(TM) they have shed all humanity.

    no humanity? then they CAN’T be Christians after all, because He assumed our humanity to Himself during the Incarnation ….. strange non-people, these; but no way can they be called ‘Christian’ if they have abjured their humanity

  50. rasinwhiting wrote:

    Was Huber a counselor to Chantry to “restore” him to ministry?

    Given his nouthetic background, I think we should be “counselor” in italics. Good thought and disturbing to consider.

  51. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    While I do not remember any inappropriate actions, the very act that he took me hiking with no one else along is inappropriate. I would NEVER do that with any underage boy or girl!! This all happened in 1974, so this stuff is sure not new!
    So, I could have been one of the victims that the WW talks about!

    He could have been grooming you to trust him.

  52. Jeff Crippen’s comment on Todd’s blog indicates there was a lot of knowledge of Chantry’s alleged offenses long before we heard about it. This indication of a coverup makes Turks recent comments here all the more outrageous and at the same time understandable. They were losing control of the narrative.

    After the dusts settles it will be informative to have a timeline of who knew what when.

  53. https://youtu.be/BtGBjwVOjFg?t=14m16s
    This is Pastor Johnson having a discussion with Pastor Peters in around the time of the “Strange Fire” conference recorded on Oct 28, 2014. They are discussing “Word of Faith/Prosperity” teaching and Pastor Peters asked Pastor Johnson what if a pastor supports TBN by being on the same tv program/platform within this case Paul Crouch if said pastor was culpable in TBN’s teaching. Then Pastor Johnson goes into several minutes with Gal and 2john about how we are to treat false teachers etc. My question, why was Pastor Johnson and Pastor MacArthur on the same stage/conference with CJ on several occasions? I asked him that on facebook one time and got a bait and switch answer about how I am emotional bla bla. The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second. I have to admit some of what they said was quite accurate but it goes to show they have blinders on concerning their own ilk in my opinion. If the fast forward does not work the part I am talking about starts around 14 Min 10 seconds.

  54. brian wrote:

    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.

    well, I guess people have their priorities 🙂

  55. dee wrote:

    I don’t know but a few of us were talking about this today. There seems to be an awful severe reaction to this particular story. We have written far more than this one. Something seems out of whack here.

    They were so aggressive, I kind of wonder whether that was all about their friend or whether something was getting close to home for them. Just my own hunch, but even the usual sweep-it-under-the-rug response to charges like this is pretty mild compared to what they were doing.

  56. preacher’s wife wrote:

    Correct me if I’m wrong or confused, but it seems like some people knew about the report and were unhappy with the way it was handled and left. Why didn’t they say anything at the time? Why did they keep silent?

    A lot of pressure is put on people that they will hurt the cause of Christ if they allow the “world” to see the church’s failures. People are persuaded that reporting will cause their children more suffering/harm.

  57. brian wrote:

    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.

    Yep, it’s called hypocrisy.

  58. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    While I do not remember any inappropriate actions, the very act that he took me hiking with no one else along is inappropriate. I would NEVER do that with any underage boy or girl!! This all happened in 1974, so this stuff is sure not new!

    Sounds like you dodged a bullet.

  59. brian wrote:

    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.

    Brian, this perfectly captures the fakery that lies behind this new religion.

  60. @ Linn:
    I know little about the subject, but had to attend a couple of Child Protection courses for my job. I learned you MUST take seriously and report to the relevant authorities any hint, however small, a minor gives you about abuse. Not only are you hopefully saving that child, but probably many others as predatory pedophiles will have multiple victims and some others they are grooming. I think in the UK there is the possibility of criminal charges against a professional, like a teacher who does not act upon information of abuse given to them by a child

  61. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    brian wrote:

    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.

    Brian, this perfectly captures the fakery that lies behind this new religion.

    They care more about doctrine than actions. That’s not biblical.

  62. Lea wrote:

    They care more about doctrine than actions. That’s not biblical.

    Precisely. Or, put another way, you could say that it is biblical, but not in a good way:

    Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold…

  63. Not reporting something like this isnt even an option for me. I fail to understand how someone could not report abuse or suspected abuse. Its caused problems for me in more than one church over things that arent even at this level of evil but I’m ok with that. Im not going to go out of my way to be a dick about it but I’m also not going to sugarcoat something thats wrong either. Dont like it, thats fine, I have a clear conscience over every time I’ve spoken up. If I’m wrong, I have no problem saying that I was wrong and apologize for it. Haven’t had to yet. Owning a mistake is part of me too.

  64. Lea wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    brian wrote:
    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.
    Brian, this perfectly captures the fakery that lies behind this new religion.
    They care more about doctrine than actions. That’s not biblical.

    Unfortunately, I have seen this over, and over.. The people most worried about “correct” doctrine, tend to be the ones that overlook bad behavior of their colleagues the most!

  65. Darlene wrote:

    I would think they would want to keep a low profile

    Impossible! As has been noted, there is no shortage of big egos within Calvinist ranks. This is not only a problem with “New” Calvinists, but with classical hyper-Calvinists like Mr. Chantry. When you believe yourself to be the sole keeper of Truth in your church and closer to God than lowly pew peons, a “pastor’s” ego can get stretched beyond the body’s ability to contain it and pride eventually causes him to fall (as the blogosphere repeatedly testifies). Roger Olson speaks of this arrogance “The perspective of many today is that if you aren’t a Calvinist, you don’t really have a grasp of the gospel.”

  66. This may be an aside, but I’m surprised to learn that a Presbyterian seminary has been hosting a Baptist institute. Somehow I can’t imagine Concordia seminary doing anything similar. As much as some Reformed guys have claimed Calvin was closer to Luther, I think my original intuition about Calvin’s theology being closer to Zwingli was correct.

  67. Visited the website of Christ Reformed Baptist Church. Interesting to note that the Pastor’s Blog is locked down and there are no staff listed. The church has a big emphasis on law and obedience to law – though I could not fully read the 15 chapter “book” on what they believe. I started tuning out after chapter one so just scanned the thing. But all the usual groups are singled out as unworthy – pagans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans. Membership is a closed “we’ll let you in if we assess you worthy” endeavour. Why in the blazes would anyone be interested in this?

    The Miller Valley website is sparse in how it is governed though there is a mention of “elders” in the staff page. The articles written by the pastor are definitely Calvinistic and (again, couldn’t read the whole thing without nodding off) appear complementarian in nature. No mention of a covenant but with elders involved, I’m sure there is one.

    Reading the post above and checking up on these churches certainly gives one a tutorial into how authoritarian structure, literal biblical interpretation, focus on law and obedience to earthly representatives – elders being God’s representatives in the church, the church being the only place to worship God = only through the elders can you worship God- leads to a perfect storm of abuse.

    We can clearly see what to avoid and the consequences of “membership” in such groups.

    Look at both church websites. How many red flags do you find?

  68. The RAINN website summarizes current law on sexual assault, child abuse, mandatory reporting of child abuse, clergy sexual misconduct, consent laws, etc. The sections on “Who is required to report?” and “Anything else I should know?” address mandatory clergy reporting requirements. The page for Arizona indicates that it has very extensive definitions on abuse-related terms, compared to other states that I’ve looked at on occasion while doing research.

    https://apps.rainn.org/policy/policy-state-laws.cfm?state=Arizona&group=4

    The relevant statutes are: Statutory citation(s): Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. §§ 13-3620, 13-3623, 36-2281.

  69. Jack wrote:

    Visited the website of Christ Reformed Baptist Church. Interesting to note that the Pastor’s Blog is locked down and there are no staff listed. The church has a big emphasis on law and obedience to law – though I could not fully read the 15 chapter “book” on what they believe. I started tuning out after chapter one so just scanned the thing. But all the usual groups are singled out as unworthy – pagans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans. Membership is a closed “we’ll let you in if we assess you worthy” endeavour. Why in the blazes would anyone be interested in this?

    This is a great assessment. Good for you.

  70. @ NJ:
    Interesting. I would love to her the discussion on infant baptism. Mark Dever will not let any of his Presbyterian friends take communion in his church because they baptize infants.

  71. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    The RAINN website summarizes current law on sexual assault, child abuse, mandatory reporting of child abuse, clergy sexual misconduct, consent laws, etc. The sections on “Who is required to report?” and “Anything else I should know?” address mandatory clergy reporting requirements. The page for Arizona indicates that it has very extensive definitions on abuse-related terms, compared to other states that I’ve looked at on occasion while doing research.

    Whether Chantry is innocent or guilty, those who covered up the allegations committed a crime!

  72. Following up with link to Arizona law pointed at by RAINN: Statutory citation(s): Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. §§ 13-3620, 13-3623, 36-2281.

    The Arizona Revised Statutes are at the site below, which is updated after the close of each legislative session. See Title 13 (Criminal Code) and Title 36 (Public Health and Safety).

    http://www.azleg.gov/arstitle/

  73. Jack wrote:

    Visited the website of Christ Reformed Baptist Church. Interesting to note that the Pastor’s Blog is locked down and there are no staff listed. The church has a big emphasis on law and obedience to law – though I could not fully read the 15 chapter “book” on what they believe. I started tuning out after chapter one so just scanned the thing. But all the usual groups are singled out as unworthy – pagans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans. Membership is a closed “we’ll let you in if we assess you worthy” endeavour. Why in the blazes would anyone be interested in this?

    Probably for the same reasons Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble became members of the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo.

  74. @ Muff Potter

    Probably for the same reasons Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble became members of the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo.

    And they all want to be the Grand Poobah.

  75. ^ Let’s try that again:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Jack wrote:

    Visited the website of Christ Reformed Baptist Church. Interesting to note that the Pastor’s Blog is locked down and there are no staff listed. The church has a big emphasis on law and obedience to law – though I could not fully read the 15 chapter “book” on what they believe. I started tuning out after chapter one so just scanned the thing. But all the usual groups are singled out as unworthy – pagans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans. Membership is a closed “we’ll let you in if we assess you worthy” endeavour. Why in the blazes would anyone be interested in this?

    Probably for the same reasons Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble became members of the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo.

    And they all want to be the Grand Poobah.

  76. Muff Potter wrote:

    Being allowed in to a place of exclusivity has always been a big draw in human history.

    Bernie Madoff being exhibit #1 for this. Nearly everyone who signed up for his money “making” funds was turned down multiple times before being allowed in.

  77. I completly agree… we all want to feel “special”… great con artist know this

    NC Now wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Being allowed in to a place of exclusivity has always been a big draw in human history.

    Bernie Madoff being exhibit #1 for this. Nearly everyone who signed up for his money “making” funds was turned down multiple times before being allowed in.

  78. @ Muff Potter:
    For sure. But you start to see how the networking plays a big part. Elders will only endorse to like minded elders. This keeps the system mostly closed. I don’t think they really want outsiders. Certainly not ones who would question. We’ve heard of people trafficking. Could this be a form of that? Congregant trafficking?

  79. Darlene wrote:

    Correction: keep a *LOW* profile

    I am reminded of the woman from Proverbs 30:20…
    This is the way of an adulteress: she eats and wipes her mouth and says, “I have done no wrong.”

    Of course, they can do the same thing and it’s “not” a problem, because they’re male.

  80. It’s almost the New Year. I want to applaud Wartburg Watch for all the work is has done on helping to expose child predators and sexual abuse in the church in this past year. It has broken my heart many times reading these stories, but they need to be told. I believe God is well pleased with Dee and Deb our their great investigative work. Keep it up. The work is not done unfortunately. For every story they share here, there are probably hundreds of them that get untold. But one story at time, they are bringing abuse in the church to light. There are a lot of other people here who are also doing this. To each and every one of you, may God richly bless you for all you have done. My heart overflows with love to those who are helping the abused, the victims, the hurting people and others.

  81. Matilda wrote:

    @ Linn:
    I know little about the subject, but had to attend a couple of Child Protection courses for my job. I learned you MUST take seriously and report to the relevant authorities any hint, however small, a minor gives you about abuse. Not only are you hopefully saving that child, but probably many others as predatory pedophiles will have multiple victims and some others they are grooming. I think in the UK there is the possibility of criminal charges against a professional, like a teacher who does not act upon information of abuse given to them by a child

    Having been a teacher in the public school system here in the USA, I can state with certainty that all staff & those in administration are required by law to report any instances where it is suspected that a child is being physically/sexually abused. To neglect reporting such an incident will result in criminal charges being filed against all guilty persons.

  82. Lea wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    brian wrote:

    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.

    Brian, this perfectly captures the fakery that lies behind this new religion.

    They care more about doctrine than actions. That’s not biblical.

    They’re more concerned with *perfectly parsed doctrine* (HUG’s phrase), than criminal behavior.

  83. Darlene wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    brian wrote:
    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.
    Brian, this perfectly captures the fakery that lies behind this new religion.
    They care more about doctrine than actions. That’s not biblical.
    They’re more concerned with *perfectly parsed doctrine* (HUG’s phrase), than criminal behavior.

    Darlene wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    brian wrote:
    The irony kills me. The same applies here if Mr. Chantry had allegedly come out about holding to the Theory of Evolution, supported women preachers, was supportive of same-sex marriage, did not hold to inerrancy, was seeker friendly, was emergent, was catholic, EO…… He would have been kicked to the curb in a second.
    Brian, this perfectly captures the fakery that lies behind this new religion.
    They care more about doctrine than actions. That’s not biblical.
    They’re more concerned with *perfectly parsed doctrine* (HUG’s phrase), than criminal behavior.

    “Theology without practice is the theology of demons”.

  84. Darlene wrote:

    They’re more concerned with *perfectly parsed doctrine* (HUG’s phrase), than criminal behavior.

    Shocking hypocrisy.
    Like the Pharisees in Jesus’ day?

  85. dee wrote:

    @ NJ:
    Interesting. I would love to her the discussion on infant baptism. Mark Dever will not let any of his Presbyterian friends take communion in his church because they baptize infants.

    Despicable.

  86. 2015 interview of Tom Chantry by Mike Abendroth, Senior Pastor of (9Marks and Founders-friendly) Bethlehem Bible Church, West Boyleston Massachusetts:

    http://nocompromiseradio.com/episodes/2015/03/04/tom-chantry-interview/

    from 21:10

    “-Talking to Tom Chantry today on No Compromise Radio. Uh Tom, tell us about your book, Holding Communion Together. Uh why’d you write it, and how could our listeners benefit if they pick up a copy?

    -Right, well um uh Holding Communion Together is a history of the confessional Reformed Baptist movement in America. I actually co-authored it with Pastor David Dykstra um who is now in Willis Texas, and uh both of us uh Dave and I have been in and around the Reformed Baptist movement for a long long time and uh believed that the history of the movement needed to be written uh and uh we actually started separately, he was working on his own, and I began blogging about the history and and uh he approached me and we wound up uh collaborating and um I think we’re we’re pretty happy with the result um I, I think that that for for the for anyone who is a a confessional 1689 uh Reformed Baptist it, it’s very important to know the history and uh where we’ve come from and how various issues have developed and been resolved among us.
    So that, that was our primary, um, that was our primary audience. I, I, I think that for a broader audience there are some very encouraging um elements of that history, particularly how uh God worked through some very ordinary people to bring about uh a renewal of biblical truth um those those are encouraging chapters in the early going, and then uh just the importance of having uh ministers and elders over us who are being held accountable, by one another um and and more broadly in the body of Christ. Um so those are those are some of the issues there.”

  87. one of the little people wrote:

    http://www.christiantoday.com/article/xxx.church.shares.3.ways.wives.can.help.their.porn.addicted.husbands.on.their.road.to.recovery/103370.htm

    Wow.

    Yes, just trust the man who continually lied to you without any caveats. Sheesh. That article was far too flippant about the whole thing. I think you could have written an extensive article about how to rebuild trust when it is gone, how to regain intimacy after something like this, etc, but this isn’t it. It just wants you to jump to the end. Like all the ‘reconciliation is the goal’ folks. There is some hard work in the middle, and most of it needs to be done by the erring spouse.

  88. Max wrote:

    @ Jerome:
    Uh, um, people actually listen to this guy preach?!

    He needs toastmasters. um *ding*, uh *ding*

  89. Jerome wrote:

    Tom Chantry today on No Compromise Radio

    Ironic, this alleged felon on “No Compromise Radio”. What is it that they are not compromising?

  90. Is that Chantry pictured at center at the 2016 ARBCA General Assembly?:

    http://s3.amazonaws.com/churchplantmedia-cms/arbca_carlisle_pa/sp-2016-arbca-update.pdf

    Chantry’s co-author of Holding Communion Together David Dykstra, and Chantry’s father-in-law Allen Huber currently hold seats on the microdenomination’s Administrative Council:

    “Delegates elected new Administrative Council members Michael Kelly of Port Cities Reformed Baptist Church of Lewiston, Wash., Earl Blackburn of Heritage Baptist Church of Shreveport, La., David Dykstra of Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Willis, Texas, and Al Huber of Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Rockford, Ill.” (p. 14)

    Administrative Council Officers are (p. 2):

    Pastor Earl Blackburn, Chairman (Heritage Baptist, Shreveport, LA)
    Pastor Jeff Massey, Vice Chairman (Redeemer Reformed Baptist, San Bernardino, CA)
    Pastor Brandon Smith, Secretary (Trinity Reformed Baptist, Jackson GA)
    Pastor Rob Cosby, Treasurer (Tucson Reformed Baptist, Tucson, AZ)
    ARBCA Coordinator: Steve Martin (Trinity Reformed Baptist, Jackson, GA)

    pp. 13-14
    “Jeff Massey, Chair of the Membership Committee, introduced four new churches to be voted in as members of ARBCA by the assembled delegates from the churches. They are: Christ Reformed Baptist Church, Hale’s Corners, Wis., in the Milwaukee area. Pastor Tom Chantry….Christ Reformed Baptist Church was founded in 2000 by families who had come to the doctrines of grace and had begun attending the Rockford church, more than an hour away. Chantry became pastor in 2005”

  91. Lea wrote:

    Yes, just trust the man who continually lied to you without any caveats. Sheesh. That article was far too flippant about the whole thing. I think you could have written an extensive article about how to rebuild trust when it is gone, how to regain intimacy after something like this, etc, but this isn’t it. It just wants you to jump to the end. Like all the ‘reconciliation is the goal’ folks. There is some hard work in the middle, and most of it needs to be done by the erring spouse.

    A bit like telling RC Spoul jr.’s wife, “Trust him. Even after he gets his 4th DUI, let him drive.”
    Wives.just.don’t.matter!

  92. Darlene wrote:

    To neglect reporting such an incident will result in criminal charges being filed against all guilty persons.

    Like I keep sayin’, sooner or later the gavel’s gonna’ come down hard an’ heavy, an’ one of the big fish is gonna’ go down for complicity when one of the minnows effs up royally.

  93. Muff Potter wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    To neglect reporting such an incident will result in criminal charges being filed against all guilty persons.

    Like I keep sayin’, sooner or later the gavel’s gonna’ come down hard an’ heavy, an’ one of the big fish is gonna’ go down for complicity when one of the minnows effs up royally.

    In a public school where most of the students come from the projects, the school staff serves many more functions for these kids than just ‘school staff/faculty’….. and one of those duties is to report what we think may be abuse and sometimes, boy howdy, it certainly is …… we saw it all, an eleven year old girl comes complaining of a personal discharge …. well, the abuser was her foster father and he had infected her ….. and then it was discovered by social services and the police that the other children in the home were also infected ….. the boy in my class who said his arms hurt ’cause his aunt hit him when she thought he took her money from her purse …. his arms were bruised and swollen

    prosecution for not reporting abuse should absolutely be a national standard for the staffs of public schools

  94. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    While I do not remember any inappropriate actions, the very act that he took me hiking with no one else along is inappropriate. I would NEVER do that with any underage boy or girl!!

    Reminds me of my 7th grade science teacher (albeit in a public school). He would invite boys from the class to go to his garage to help him wash his collection of sports cars (allegedly even including a Delorean). Later it turned out he was arrested for molesting several boys over a stretch of years in the 1990’s. Fortunately I never had an interest in doing so (my tastes in cars tended toward Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Mercurys at the time) but I could see how the allure of sports cars could attract teen boys who unltimately became his victims.

  95. AnonInNC wrote:

    Reminds me of my 7th grade science teacher (albeit in a public school). He would invite boys from the class to go to his garage to help him wash his collection of sports cars (allegedly even including a Delorean).

    Doesn’t PastorStarScott of Calvary Temple have a huge collection of expensive sports cars? And has used this as a recruiting tool to draw in youth?

  96. @ Jerome:
    If that was an accurate quote, the guy has more “umm”s and “uhh”s than a stoner. Or a Valley Girl with “Like, Y’Know”s.

  97. dee wrote:

    @ NJ:
    Interesting. I would love to her the discussion on infant baptism. Mark Dever will not let any of his Presbyterian friends take communion in his church because they baptize infants.

    Purity of Ideology, Comrades.

  98. Jack wrote:

    I started tuning out after chapter one so just scanned the thing. But all the usual groups are singled out as unworthy – pagans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans. Membership is a closed “we’ll let you in if we assess you worthy” endeavour. Why in the blazes would anyone be interested in this?

    The Lure of the Inner Ring.

  99. dee wrote:

    Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    Where the “pyro” guys that went after you part of the ARBCA crowd?

    I don’t know but a few of us were talking about this today. There seems to be an awful severe reaction to this particular story. We have written far more than this one. Something seems out of whack here.

    Getting way too close to home?

  100. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    If that was an accurate quote, the guy has more “umm”s and “uhh”s than a stoner. Or a Valley Girl with “Like, Y’Know”s.

    I don’t know which is worse, that, or the overuse of the word(s) ‘incredible’ and
    ‘incredibly’ (both are as worn out as the bald tires on a poorly maintained big-rig).

  101. @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    So, i got on Ca Megans list, and what do I find?, A guy with the name of my 7th grade teacher was convicted and sent to prison for lude act with 14 year old boy in 1997… 23 years after getting fired from my school… and the mug shot him looks like him, just aged…
    as far as i know, he was quitely “removed” from my school… and if i am correct, then went on to molest how many kids??
    Oh, and searching on his name finds young earth creationism artilces written by someone wuth his name, including fossels… what he tried to groom with with…

  102. Jerome wrote:

    2015 interview of Tom Chantry by Mike Abendroth, Senior Pastor of (9Marks and Founders-friendly) Bethlehem Bible Church, West Boyleston Massachusetts:

    http://nocompromiseradio.com/episodes/2015/03/04/tom-chantry-interview/

    from 21:10

    “-Talking to Tom Chantry today on No Compromise Radio. Uh Tom, tell us about your book, Holding Communion Together. Uh why’d you write it, and how could our listeners benefit if they pick up a copy?

    Check out the photo “review” of “Holding Communion” included here:
    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/12/08/snap-issues-press-release-tom-chantry/

  103. Off-topic announcement. Jeannette Altes, a regular here for many years who has been out of work and being treated for a tumor, is in need of funds to pay her January rent. She needs $350 toward rent.

    Thank you.

    ********************
    Today’s status update.
    Doing well mentally. Physically the same. Thank you all for your prayers and love. They help and mean a ton.
    I have food for 5 or 6 days.
    Rent is due Sunday and will need to get it in a couple days – $565. I have part of it but still need $350.
    Thank you all so much.
    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  104. Note to GBTC —

    FYI, wartburgwatch.com no longer forwards to thewartburgwatch.com as of a week or two ago.

  105. Janey wrote:

    Note to GBTC —
    FYI, wartburgwatch.com no longer forwards to thewartburgwatch.com as of a week or two ago.

    Yes, I’ve noticed that too.

  106. Velour wrote:

    FYI, wartburgwatch.com no longer forwards to thewartburgwatch.com as of a week or two ago.

    Nuts. Now to go examine DNS. Oy vey.

    Folks if you notice something like this and it doesn’t clear up PLEASE let us know. We can’t fix what we don’t know about.

  107. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    So, i got on Ca Megans list, and what do I find?, A guy with the name of my 7th grade teacher was convicted and sent to prison for lude act with 14 year old boy in 1997… 23 years after getting fired from my school… and the mug shot him looks like him, just aged…

    as far as i know, he was quitely “removed” from my school… and if i am correct, then went on to molest how many kids??

    This was the teacher who was “removed” for “moral reasons”?
    (“Moral reasons/moral failings” = caught in the act with a live boy or dead woman.)

    Oh, and searching on his name finds young earth creationism articles written by someone wuth his name, including fossils… what he tried to groom with with…

    Probable ID.
    So his YEC Theology is Pure.
    (Ken Ham would be PROUD. No Compromise with the SIN of Evil-ution!)
    Displacement behavior – Why am I NOT Surprised?

  108. I am continuing to dig and finding confirming evidence
    I think it is relavent to WW for a number of reasons
    1. Pados in christain churches/ schools not new
    2. As i contiune to reflect, he was grooming me just as we hear/read about
    3. If he had been covicted, or at least PUBICALLy exposed in 1974 in my school, there would have been less chance he would have molested, and been convited, AND sent to prision for a1997 molestation. My heart goes out to all of his victims..
    4. He got a MS degree from insitute of Creation research, and published a paper after being fired from my school..
    5. In fact, a web page which i respect, and refutes YEC, has critiqued his work.
    6. YEC are Very quick to question your salvation if you question YEC, yet they cover up PEDOS in their midst?
    7. My commitment to WW contiunes to grow as i realized i probably dodged a bullet!

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    So, i got on Ca Megans list, and what do I find?, A guy with the name of my 7th grade teacher was convicted and sent to prison for lude act with 14 year old boy in 1997… 23 years after getting fired from my school… and the mug shot him looks like him, just aged…
    as far as i know, he was quitely “removed” from my school… and if i am correct, then went on to molest how many kids??
    This was the teacher who was “removed” for “moral reasons”?
    (“Moral reasons/moral failings” = caught in the act with a live boy or dead woman.)
    Oh, and searching on his name finds young earth creationism articles written by someone wuth his name, including fossils… what he tried to groom with with…
    Probable ID.
    So his YEC Theology is Pure.
    (Ken Ham would be PROUD. No Compromise with the SIN of Evil-ution!)
    Displacement behavior – Why am I NOT Surprised?

  109. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    6. YEC are Very quick to question your salvation if you question YEC, yet they cover up PEDOS in their midst?

    Because There Can Be NO Salvation Outside of YEC.

    His Ideology is Pure, Comrades.

  110. Darlene wrote:

    @ rasinwhiting:
    Nouthetic counseling…Right there is a glaring problem.

    Well here is the thing. Not only is “biblical counseling” a lie, it has been proven in several ways in several studies to be harmful to the person being counseled. So why do people embrace it, teach it, use it? Obviously not by anyone who actually cares for the individual – my conclusion is that these false teachers care only for power, and nouthetic counseling is one means to assure that.

  111. Lea wrote:

    That article was far too flippant about the whole thing.

    Yep. My bigger concern is that there isn’t a shred of evidence that the suggestions in the article actually, you know, work. I’d also add that it is kind of stupid to lump “porn addiction” all together. I don’t want to get crass on a family blog, but there is a whole lot of stuff out there labelled “porn”. Nice that a couple can get past it in three easy steps, huh?

  112. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Obviously not by anyone who actually cares for the individual – my conclusion is that these false teachers care only for power, and nouthetic counseling is one means to assure that.

    I dunno. I think there are a lot of people who really believe that if you just zap people with the Bible, they will be “cured”, even ones in counseling. I knew some in seminary. Usually those same people were clearly ignoring huge problems in their own lives, but they still fervently believed in it.

  113. Btw, about the images, in firefox you can look under tools/page info/media, it is showing the images linked from Thou Art The Man are set to resize to 665%. Maybe a mistake when importing them into wordpress? fwiw

  114. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Well here is the thing. Not only is “biblical counseling” a lie, it has been proven in several ways in several studies to be harmful to the person being counseled. So why do people embrace it, teach it, use it?

    Superstition, paranoia, faulty ideas about what secular counseling really is. And I think at base, there is a fear that faith is so fragile, anything not specifically created and administered through “Christian” channels is liable to destroy it. Which is an absurd idea.

  115. @ siteseer:
    I agree with this… it is my experience that those that think ever answer is in the bible, and it sufficient, actuall di havr a pretty weak faith

  116. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    6. YEC are Very quick to question your salvation if you question YEC, yet they cover up PEDOS in their midst?

    Because There Can Be NO Salvation Outside of YEC.

    His Ideology is Pure, Comrades.

    I’ve tried to sort out why the need to abandon ‘reason’ in order to claim ‘faith’ that ‘saves’. Why is ‘reason’ not recognized as a gift from God? Why? When even the Scriptures tell us that all Creation bears witness to God. ( 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.)
    Romans 1:20

    Do the same people who don’t understand that their reasoning was given to them to comprehend that the Natural World speaks to us of its Creator ALSO
    fail to honor Our Lord as the image of the invisible God?

    ?

  117. siteseer wrote:

    And I think at base, there is a fear that faith is so fragile, anything not specifically created and administered through “Christian” channels is liable to destroy it. Which is an absurd idea.

    This is definitely a factor. All I heard about at Liberty was “be afraid of this” and “be afraid of that”. Those people were terrified of everything.

    I think it greatly hindered their faith instead of helping it.

  118. Max wrote:

    These hyper-Calvinists remind me of Free Masons. There appears to be a secret society and blood pact where they protect each other.

    Sorry… I’m an at least 3rd-generation Master Mason (3rd degree), and at least 2nd-generation 32nd-degree Scottish Rite Freemason… there are no blood-oaths, and there are mitigations for what one brother would report to appropriate law enforcement, without violating some obligation…

    There are other organizations which affiliation with Freemasonry is solely that they require aspirants to be 3rd-degree Masons… Why work harder doing 3 degrees of initiation when it’s already done? Then they tack on all their other BS…

    Just sayin’, and I’m certain that many if not most regular subscribers to this blog have their own ideas regarding my fraternal organization, but that I happen to be a Freemason, to the 32nd Degree, maybe that gives me a bit of expertise from which to speak.

  119. Masons that violate their obligations by committing felonies, especially of such a thing as pedophilia or hebephilia, will be removed from the rolls, their membership is invalidated, and law enforcement is involved simultaneously.

  120. And, for those who have not seen any of my previous comments, while I always intend to be a gentleman, and in the majority of blog postings, that I have few or no horses in the particular race, I spent more than a decade in the midst of late-70’s-mid to late 80’s evangelical circles… I played in their “worship bands,” including backing artists from the “Hosannah” label, I attended their churches, I gave mucho dinero to those causes with which I could morally agree… and all the rest… I was production manager for 2 evangelical radio stations, the last having been the first truly multi-racial radio station in Birmingham, Alabama, history, and counted among dearest friends and sometime fishin’ buddies those who either marched with Dr. King and called him “Marty,” or their mothers and fathers had done so..

    Nevertheless, I happen to have taken the faith of my father and his ancestors, and I’m Jewish… Go figure…

    Just a bit of, perhaps, off-topic introduction for those that don’t know this generally quite quiet, but daily-reading subscriber.

  121. ION: Climbing

    So, a quick year-end climbing session for the two of us this evening, and it went rather well. Lesley made very good progress on both the 6b+ on the slabs, and the 6a+ route with Kevin the Handhold * at 4/5ths height. I got as close as it’s possible to get on the heavily-featured 6c (slapped the final hold but didn’t fully control the move), and also completed the knobbly 6a+ in the chimney that I made a complete mess of last time.

    IHTIH

    * There’s a hold named Kevin, for historical reasons that are difficult to explain concisely.

  122. ishy wrote:

    All I heard about at Liberty was “be afraid of this” and “be afraid of that”. Those people were terrified of everything.

    That is disturbing. What sorts of things were they afraid of?

  123. @ Paul Julian Gould:
    I totally understand. Our Catholic Newman Club at university was active in the Civil Rights Movement …. Our lead guitarist at mass was my friend, our friend, Carole …. and she was Jewish. She played a great guitar. We all loved her. She WAS Jewish and she WAS one of us too. 🙂

  124. @ ishy:

    I am, arguably, right in the middle of all the things that the people at Liberty are “afraid of”, and none of it is a threat to my faith… but it is to the small minded fundies..

  125. Christiane wrote:

    ’ve tried to sort out why the need to abandon ‘reason’ in order to claim ‘faith’ that ‘saves’. Why is ‘reason’ not recognized as a gift from God? Why?

    Bearing in mind that I know not what the truth may be; I tell the tale as was told to me. I see two factors going on here. One is Paul’s comment that he preached Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks. There is also the biblical comment that God uses the weak? foolish? things of the world to confound the wise. I have not done a scripture search on these ideas, just going on memory here, but the idea has developed that to believe one must be willing to believe the impossible (like the incarnation, the resurrection and the atonement) or else one is not believing. I see some truth in that. I believe that there is also a Catholic idea that one believes in order to understand, rather than understanding in order to believe.

    The thing about Romans 1, that creation is evidence of God, does not seem to me to be related to the issue of reason beyond the idea that God must have done the creating, since when it was written it would have meant something else than the old earth/ young earth controversy.

    The reason why I find this train of thinking disturbing, is that the primary reason that I am not a Catholic is that neither reason nor evidence will take me to some of the beliefs which Catholicism teaches. So, reason may well be a two edged sword when it comes to religion. Faith will take people beyond what reason will.

  126. okrapod wrote:

    That is disturbing. What sorts of things were they afraid of?

    I wrote an editorial on how being afraid of talking to the opposite sex was silly.

    There was also a great fear of non-Christians, baby Christians (like me), and not being the perfect Christian all the time. Many of their parents sent their kids there will the belief that LU would force them to remain sheltered, as well as find a mate from a celebrity Christian family.

    Sadly, those people were not afraid of:
    1. Pride
    2. Greed
    3. Marrying the wrong person
    4. Being cliquish
    5. The Titanic song (next door neighbor played it on repeat at full blast for 3 hours a day for months!). We complained, but she was the daughter of a trustee).

  127. okrapod wrote:

    Faith will take people beyond what reason will.

    YES. Faith goes ‘beyond’ reason, but it does not cancel reason out. A lot of the Catholic thinking is centered on the whole concept of Creation ‘ex nihilo’, that even a small insignificant natural structure is existing from the Hand of God and is kept in existence by Christ, so for us, the ‘miraculous’ and the ‘natural’ are connected together through their Source.
    And yet we know that if all of Creation vanished in an instant, God would not be diminished in any respect.

  128. “Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    Well here is the thing. Not only is “biblical counseling” a lie, it has been proven in several ways in several studies to be harmful to the person being counseled. So why do people embrace it, teach it, use it?”

    I can tell you on many lists why it is still taught and used is that it generates revenue and has a very good ROI. That is number 1-500000000000 reasons on the list it is used and defended so strongly. One of the cardinal doctrines I learned in the evangelical corp, not to be confused with the Church of Jesus, is economics is a first order sacriment.

  129. Paul Julian Gould wrote:

    there are no blood-oaths,

    The Masonic oaths are pretty gruesome, but I don’t believe any Masons take them literally. I don’t view Masons as evil people bent on world domination. On the other hand, the mixing of fraternal club-ship with religious words and artifacts such as temples, alters, and out-of-context passages from the Bible, can create some theological dissonance.

  130. ishy wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    That is disturbing. What sorts of things were they afraid of?

    I wrote an editorial on how being afraid of talking to the opposite sex was silly.

    There was also a great fear of non-Christians, baby Christians (like me), and not being the perfect Christian all the time. Many of their parents sent their kids there will the belief that LU would force them to remain sheltered, as well as find a mate from a celebrity Christian family.

    Sadly, those people were not afraid of:
    1. Pride
    2. Greed
    3. Marrying the wrong person
    4. Being cliquish
    5. The Titanic song (next door neighbor played it on repeat at full blast for 3 hours a day for months!). We complained, but she was the daughter of a trustee).

    And to think people laugh at mainstream college students for wanting safe spaces and trigger warnings.

  131. Paul Julian Gould wrote:

    Masons that violate their obligations by committing felonies, especially of such a thing as pedophilia or hebephilia, will be removed from the rolls, their membership is invalidated, and law enforcement is involved simultaneously.

    I remember reading that Anders Behring Breivik was removed from the rolls too, after he committed his massacre. (He, apparently, was attracted to Masonry because of its supposed links to the Knights Templar, which he also admired).

  132. Paul Julian Gould wrote:

    Nevertheless, I happen to have taken the faith of my father and his ancestors, and I’m Jewish… Go figure…

    Perhaps I am making too much out of your comment, but are you saying that you had to convert because your mother was not Jewish (or maybe it does not operate that way) or are you saying that you were raised in some other tradition from the get go, or what are you saying?

    BTW, what instrument(s) were you playing in the bands?

  133. brian wrote:

    “Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    Well here is the thing. Not only is “biblical counseling” a lie, it has been proven in several ways in several studies to be harmful to the person being counseled. So why do people embrace it, teach it, use it?”

    I can tell you on many lists why it is still taught and used is that it generates revenue and has a very good ROI. That is number 1-500000000000 reasons on the list it is used and defended so strongly.

    In the words of the Prophet Pink Floyd:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ

  134. Paul Julian Gould wrote:

    Masons that violate their obligations by committing felonies, especially of such a thing as pedophilia or hebephilia, will be removed from the rolls, their membership is invalidated, and law enforcement is involved simultaneously.

    So the Freemasons (who always make an appearance in Christianese Satanic Conspiracy Theories) have a better take on it than the Born-Again God Squad.

  135. Could I ask a favor? Discussions on Masons often end up in fire works. Could we try to stick to the subject of the post?

  136. okrapod wrote:

    Paul Julian Gould wrote:
    Nevertheless, I happen to have taken the faith of my father and his ancestors, and I’m Jewish… Go figure…
    Perhaps I am making too much out of your comment, but are you saying that you had to convert because your mother was not Jewish (or maybe it does not operate that way) or are you saying that you were raised in some other tradition from the get go, or what are you saying?
    BTW, what instrument(s) were you playing in the bands?

    My mother was not Jewish, it is true… But there’s not a whole lot to read into it… I just found more affinity to the faith of my Father, my Uncle, my Grandfather and the ancestors before them.

    That’s all.

  137. dee wrote:

    Could I ask a favor? Discussions on Masons often end up in fire works. Could we try to stick to the subject of the post?

    I’m good with that… I wouldn’t have commented at all, were it not for the offhand, seeming throwaway slap at my fraternity… Since I do happen to have a horse in that race, I couldn’t let such a driveby slide, is all.

  138. okrapod wrote:

    Paul Julian Gould wrote:
    Nevertheless, I happen to have taken the faith of my father and his ancestors, and I’m Jewish… Go figure…
    Perhaps I am making too much out of your comment, but are you saying that you had to convert because your mother was not Jewish (or maybe it does not operate that way) or are you saying that you were raised in some other tradition from the get go, or what are you saying?
    BTW, what instrument(s) were you playing in the bands?

    Throughout the years, it was always alto sax… These days, it’s alto & soprano saxes, keys, percussion (acoustic and digital), bass, and acoustic and electric guitars… I’ve had a lot of time on my hands over the years since… *chuckle*

  139. Paul Julian Gould wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Paul Julian Gould wrote:
    Nevertheless, I happen to have taken the faith of my father and his ancestors, and I’m Jewish… Go figure…
    Perhaps I am making too much out of your comment, but are you saying that you had to convert because your mother was not Jewish (or maybe it does not operate that way) or are you saying that you were raised in some other tradition from the get go, or what are you saying?
    BTW, what instrument(s) were you playing in the bands?
    Throughout the years, it was always alto sax… These days, it’s alto & soprano saxes, keys, percussion (acoustic and digital), bass, and acoustic and electric guitars… I’ve had a lot of time on my hands over the years since… *chuckle*

    I’m about to release my first full album, as soon as I can get my head together enough to finish the final tracks for a song I wrote 2 weeks after my dear Mama’s passing in 2015… that event put the project on hold, as this song (instrumental, rather like a mellow (?!), waltz influenced by Dropkick Murphys… Mama was Oklahoma Black Irish, and I think she approves… I know she keeps an eye on her very strange old son, and, for that reason, I’ll not release the tune until it’s as close to perfect as I can manage. *smile*

  140. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    FYI, wartburgwatch.com no longer forwards to thewartburgwatch.com as of a week or two ago.
    Nuts. Now to go examine DNS. Oy vey.
    Folks if you notice something like this and it doesn’t clear up PLEASE let us know. We can’t fix what we don’t know about.

    Will do. Sorry I was in the middle of Christmas business. Next time I’ll stop what I’m doing and send you folks a short email.

    Mea Culpa. (I’m sorry in Latin.)

  141. brian wrote:

    I can tell you on many lists why it is still taught and used is that it generates revenue and has a very good ROI. That is number 1-500000000000 reasons on the list it is used and defended so strongly. One of the cardinal doctrines I learned in the evangelical corp, not to be confused with the Church of Jesus, is economics is a first order sacriment.

    I suspect you are right…

  142. Velour wrote:

    Next time I’ll stop what I’m doing and send you folks a short email.

    Now now. I’m not yelling at you. I’m just asking if folks see something wrong they don’t wait weeks to tell us.

  143. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    Folks if you notice something like this and it doesn’t clear up PLEASE let us know. We can’t fix what we don’t know about.

    What’s the best way to let you know?

  144. Dee, Deb,

    A related topic on a similar case with the Church of England. This was from March last year but I have just seen this article from one our UK newspapers. It is disturbing how these horrors are being ignored by senior church leaders across all denominations:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/15/damning-report-reveals-church-of-england-failure-to-act-on-abuse

    By the way, I saw the movie Spotlight last week and it was very informative. I would highly recommend it – it is based on true stories of priests who knew about the abuse and did nothing!

  145. At the request of the family, both Todd and I removed the pictures of Tom Chantry’s children even though their faces were blurred.

  146. dee wrote:

    At the request of the family, both Todd and I removed the pictures of Tom Chantry’s children even though their faces were blurred.

    Thanks for that Dee and Todd.

  147. “For the record Chantry is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law or pleads guilty to the charges.” And…

    “…quick to assail those of us who write so called ‘discernment blogs’ or ‘watch blogs,’ accusing us of slander or of breaking the 9th Commandment,…”

    I want to speak to the “innocent until proven guilty” concept. Also, we had Frank Turk express how disingenuous it was of Dee to not show this phrase on the shot of the court site. No, it was not disingenuous at all. In fact it was not even necessary because everybody reading the blog understands this I’m sure.

    The reason it was not necessary is because, unlike for many in the Reformed/Calvinist community, it is understood that presumption of innocence until guilt is proven applies to only one tiny thing: the conviction and sentencing of the accused by the civil magistrate, and nothing else. Where does the bible say that a criminal trial is the only human court somebody is subject to? Where does it say that nobody else outside of a jury has a right to deal with facts as they are known and come to their own conclusion about the person in question? Where does the bible say that people cannot speak out about what they have experienced or know to be true?

    To the contrary, the bible speaks of many “courts.” Criminal, civil, ecclesiastical (i.e. church discipline/excommunication). We even have judgment rendered on prospective elders. They must be above reproach and have a good reputation with those outside the church. How are these things determined? How would a church know that a prospective elder had a bad reputation? I’ve attended a number of churches where prospective elders are investigated. Family, friends, coworkers, neighbors are asked about the individual and his character. A bad report would be like this: “Oh, THAT guy? Well, he certainly is no saint around here!” It is interesting that input such as this that could render somebody disqualified for elder can be called “valuable,” yet when the shoe is on the other foot it is called gossip and slander! Think about that double standard for a minute. Or maybe several years.

    Lastly, there is that misunderstood thing known as court of public opinion. The bible’s words are nowhere near unanimous in condemning it, yet many teachers in my former circles are. In fact it says quite a bit about reputation, what kind of actions will gain you a bad name, what to avoid doing to get yourself a bad reputation. Anybody ever read Consumer Reports? Life is full of judgment. God requires it of us. So, the most disingenuous thing is to demand that nobody form any kind of opinion until after a criminal jury does. In essence, it is placing a gag order on God’s people in requiring them to hold to one’s own very narrow view of justice.

  148. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    Well I’ll be. Frank Turk is quitting – as in, he needs to get in one last jab at everyone before he pulls his computer plug.

    It was a strange article. By his rationale, all ministries should disconnect from the internet.

  149. jerome wrote:

    A troubling post at Sharper Iron:
    http://sharperiron.org/comment/89074#comment-89074
    “I do know Chantry
    At least I met him several years ago when he ran a youth program at a Reformed Baptist Family Camp in New Jersey, sponsored by his father’s church in Carlisle, PA”

    1) “Running a youth program” as in “prey-rich environment”?
    2) “His father’s church”… Another Highborn Heir to Daddy’s Pulpit? And since Daddy was $ponsoring the youth program, Baptist Family Camp couldn’t say no. (Maybe it was a condition for the $ponsor$hip…)

  150. westerner wrote:

    @ Unepetiteanana:
    Good heavens that was verbose.

    Maybe he’s taking word salad lessons from the Pied Piper?

    Or Merlin’s testing the Curse of Babel before the N.I.C.E. banquet?

  151. jerome wrote:

    “I do know Chantry
    At least I met him several years ago when he ran a youth program at a Reformed Baptist Family Camp in New Jersey, sponsored by his father’s church in Carlisle, PA”

    Uh oh. He sure seemed to show up around kids a lot.

  152. I cannot believe I am just finding out about this! I must have overlooked it on my rounds across the reformed blogosphere the past few weeks.

    Without claiming any power of prescience, I must say that when I saw this, I immediately recalled thinking when I used to (unwisely) frequent the Pyro site, upon seeing Chantry’s avatar photo “that guy looks like a child molester”. I think I actually prayed for forgiveness for having that thought, though I never “blurted” it in a post or out loud to anyone.

    I am sick to my stomach at yet another real-life example of these religious professionals and wannabe religious professional (like Turk) banding together to foist themselves and their foolishness onto the world with impunity.

    I hope Tom Chantry repents, confesses and reaches many more for Christ’s kingdom… in prison!

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