History isn't just the story of bad people doing bad things. It's quite as much a story of people trying to do good things. But somehow, something goes wrong. C. S. Lewis link
Sutton Turner and Abdulla Saeed
Sutton Turner, formerly of Mars Hill, sent me an email and asked me to post the following information about the dismissal of the RICO lawsuit against Mars Hill. It is no secret to anyone on this blog that The Deebs believe that Mars Hill Church, under the direction of Mark Driscoll and men like Sutton Turner, was a poor excuse for a church that dared to invoke the name of Jesus Christ.
For those who want to see what Sutton Turner has been up to, this is from his new blog Invest.
Sutton Turner was the executive pastor and an executive elder of Mars Hill Church in Seattle. He spent several years in the business world, working in Texas and the Middle East before God called him to serve at Mars Hill. Turner oversaw the church’s central operations and business functions, including finance, property, media and communications, and technology. He trained and mentored the executive pastors and deacons across all Mars Hill Church locations.
In light of all this, Pastor Sutton would still tell you that his first and most important ministry is right in his home. He has been a husband to Marci for almost two decades, and is dad to Grace, Faye, and Joseph.
In 2008 Sutton Turner (CEO) and Abdulla Saeed Al Qamzi (Managing Director) founded a real estate company in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates. Sutton and Abdulla are pictured here in front of a model of Al Reem Island, a $30 Billion development. This was just one of the many business ventures he had the privilege to undertake and execute. During this time, he had the incredible opportunity of living as a Bible-believing, Jesus-loving Christian. He had employees, friends, and clients who were Muslim with whom he was able to be friends and show Christ’s love in everyday life.
However, I believe it is in keeping with the goals of this blog that we provide our readers with information that we received about Mars Hill.. Therefore, the following information is quoted verbatim from Sutton Turner's email to me. It is our hope that Sutton Turner as well as all of the former leadership from Mars Hill will repent and attempt to reconcile with those thrown under the wheels of the bus formerly known as Mars Hill.
I wanted to follow up and let you know that the Mars Hill RICO lawsuit has now been dismissed. I have shared more details about the lawsuit as well as information on the Global Fund, Board, Unhealthy Culture, ResultSource, executive pay and more in a new blog post: Mars Hill RICO: Dismissed, What’s Next?.
Here’s some of the highlights from the post:
1. Quote from Judge James L. Robart “As Judge James L. Robart stated today, “The court finds that dismissal without prejudice is appropriate because Plaintiffs have:
- failed to serve Defendants, even after the 90-day deadline passed;
- failed to take any action to pursue their claims aside from filing their complaint;
- not objected to dismissal of their case without prejudice; and
- represented that they cannot further prosecute this action at this time because they do not have the funds to do so.”
2. The RICO lawsuit lodged against former Mars Hill Executive Elders, Sutton Turner and Mark Driscoll has now been dismissed by the court.
3. The 42-page public complaint was filed without the means to complete the litigation, causing significant damage to the reputation and business career of Sutton Turner.
3. In an effort to help others heal and other leaders learn, Sutton Turner has provided more details of his experience at Mars Hill Church. He was previously restricted from sharing some of this information.
4. One pressing question, “How much money given to Mars Hill’s Global Fund actually went to church planting and evangelical efforts in Ethiopia and India compared to funding church planting in the U.S.?” has now been answered.
- According to Sutton Turner, from 2009 to 2012 Mars Hill spent $8.6 million in U.S. church planting and $170,000 outside of the U.S.
- From 2012 to 2014, Mars Hill spent $13.7 million in U.S. church planting, and $545,000 in Ethiopia and India. In total Mars Hill Church invested over $23 million in church planting in the U.S. and around the world. This amount is over and above the general and administrative costs of Mars Hill Church’s central operations and staffing.
- 47% of the funds given to Mars Hill Global from 2012-2014 were large donations from a small number of donors who specifically asked prior to giving for their donations to be counted in Global. Many of these donors did not attend one specific Mars Hill location and wanted their donations supporting all Mars Hill operations including U.S. and international church planting.
- There was never an intention to deceive or confuse donors as to where their money was being used. When people began to question the distribution of funds given to Mars Hill Global, the church brought in ECFA and independent auditors, Clark Nuber. Both groups gave Mars Hill a clear opinion that the church had done nothing wrong. We sent 3,765 emails and 6,000 letters to 100% of donors to Mars Hill Global from 2011 to 2014 to clarify their gift intent. Less than 40 families responded; Mars Hill Church sent an additional $40,000 to Ethiopia because donors requested their donations to Mars Hill Global for Ethiopian church planting.
5. Sutton Turner says he plans to meet with some of the former members and staff on his next trip to Seattle. He continues to offer to meet with the plaintiffs in the dismissed lawsuit if they will agree.
1st?
4. One pressing question, “How much money given to Mars Hill’s Global Fund actually went to church planting and evangelical efforts in Ethiopia and India compared to funding church planting in the U.S.?” has now been answered.
According to Sutton Turner, from 2009 to 2012 Mars Hill spent $8.6 million in U.S. church planting and $170,000 outside of the U.S.
From 2012 to 2014, Mars Hill spent $13.7 million in U.S. church planting, and $545,000 in Ethiopia and India. In total Mars Hill Church invested over $23 million in church planting in the U.S. and around the world. This amount is over and above the general and administrative costs of Mars Hill Church’s central operations and staffing.
Did people believe their money went to overseas missions, while instead it remained in the US, where the shortage of churches is as acute as the shortage of Starbucks?
@ Friend:
You did it.
From the article (Emphasis added)
1. Quote from Judge James L. Robart “As Judge James L. Robart stated today, “The court finds that dismissal without prejudice is appropriate because Plaintiffs have:
* failed to serve Defendants, even after the 90-day deadline passed;
* failed to take any action to pursue their claims aside from filing their complaint;
* not objected to dismissal of their case without prejudice; and
* represented that they cannot further prosecute this action at this time because they do not have the funds to do so.”
2. The RICO lawsuit lodged against former Mars Hill Executive Elders, Sutton Turner and Mark Driscoll has now been dismissed by the court.
As far as point #1, if I understand correctly, *dismissal WITH prejudice* would mean it is dismissed permanently and cannot be refiled. However, this is *dismissal WITHOUT prejudice* which means the case can be reactivated.
As far as point #2, the grammar of *has now been dismissed* seems to imply permanent dismissal.
My point simply being, it is not necessarily over, which would also mean that the disputes have not been resolved.
Also, it may be significant to consider what appears to be missing from the email summary by Mr. Sutton — namely, if I understand correctly, that the judge did NOT rule in favor of Mr. Sutton’s official countermeasure filed against the case but instead dismissed it.
Perhaps a reader with legal background can illuminate the significance of these points …
Beware. Virtually everything from Sutton Turner is a highly polished, self-serving, self-righteous half-truth. His sanctimonious methods have proven insincere. But he fools a lot of people with it.
Brad is correct. Dismissal without prejudice means that the suit can be refiled, but there are deadlines that may apply. So this thing cannot sit there forever.
It’s hard to know why someone would take the time to file a complaint of that length and then not follow up. Sometimes information is discovered that makes the lawsuit not worth pursuing for one reason or another. In those cases, however, the plaintiff usually takes the initiative and moves to dismiss the suit without prejudice.
Without more information, it is hard to know what happened.
A fund called a “Global Fund” that has such a larger percentage of funds spent here in the US seems to be a fund with the wrong name. But, again, without more information, I cannot make any judgment about that either.
What happened to Mars Hill, and why it happened, is a matter of record. I hope as many people as possible have been able to find new church homes.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Exactly. All this means is only enough money can buy justice.
@ Jessica:
Seeker Megas were full of Sutton Turners.
“3. The 42-page public complaint was filed without the means to complete the litigation, causing significant damage to the reputation and business career of Sutton Turner. ”
Would he like some cheese with that whine? Evidently he had no problem with joining Driscoll after so much had already come out about his coup…..which tells me all I need to know about Sutton Turner.
WTH??
Why in the world did Sutton Turner send this to the Deebs? Is this free advertising for how great, wonderful, and beyond reproof Sutton Turner believes he is? In his email, he sounds as if he is playing the victim. What is the man’s purpose here? I.don’t.trust.him.at.all.
Okay ….. 23 mil spent on church planting.
So, how much money, total, did Mars Hill rake in over the years?
Mark Driscoll said Sutton was the “King” of Mars Hill. He made the big executive decisions for MHC. The lawsuit was only dismissed because plaintiffs ran out of money. The judge stated the case had merit. Sutton was responsible for a memo that stated that MHC should emphasize the overseas Ethiopian angle but only spend a small percentage on that while using the vast majority to fund local real estate investments in the Seattle area. This was deliberate deception. Sutton later spins this as Global not meaning global.
.
Excellent article here http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/08/25/rico-suit-dismiss-without-prejudice-sutton-turner-reveals-mars-hill-church-global-fund-figures/ that has links to original MHC documents.
.
Sutton was the man paying Capin Crouse for studies to take MD’s pay up to $650,000 yr with Mark returning the favor to Sutton. 40% of MHC staff were laid off during this same time period due to budgetary constraints.
.
If Sutton wants to restore his image and do something good for the body of Christ he should publicly declare Mark Driscoll is disqualified from ministry. He should explain exactly where the Global Funds and Jesus Festival money went and how much he and Mark walked away with in severance while pastors and staff were being fired with no severance for asking questions. He can spin away but until he tries to substantively right his wrongs King Sutton is no better than Driscoll.
Dear Sutton Turner,
Sorry, but that doesn’t work with this crowd. Manipulative on your part to try.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
They can refile because there was nothing substantively wrong with the case, a dismissal with prejudice would’ve meant there was some fatal flaw from the perspective of the law in the case, e.g., it was a frivolous case without merit or grounding in the law. But that was not the case here. It was just about the bucks or want thereof.
I don’t know about the countersuit, but there appeared to be language there indicating Sutton was pursuing as much due to alleged damages to his reputation. That would’ve been an uphill climb to say the least, he’d have had to prove libel, and truth being an absolute defense, Sutton may have been slapped back with a motion by the plaintiffs to pursue an award of attorney’s fees and other damages for a frivolous and vexatious countersuit on Sutton’s part. That said, I’m not an expert in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure generally or those of Washington specifically, will leave the final word to people who know more, such as Judge Fall.
Did this sentence stick out as odd to anyone else?
I’m back from picketing Mark Driscoll’s talk to the Christian Legal Society at the Phoenix Seminary. It was hot and generally dull. I was out there for an hour. I came home and took a nap for two hours to recover.
Answers to unasked questions:
* No, I did not see Mark Driscoll.
* Yes, some attorney-looking guy going into the building about the time of the shindig snapped my picture on his cell phone. I shouted to him, “Tell Mark I said hello!”
* Yes, I’m pretty sure some of the really well dressed people going into the building between 11:30 and noon were there to see Driscoll. I just thanked God I no longer had to wear a suit or a conservative dark dress. (I had on a light linen dress and hat.)
* No, the batteries on GoPro Hero Session camera (which I had clipped to my bag) were not made to take nearly 100 degree heat and the sun shining directly on it. They drained after 30 minutes (should have gone 3x that). Must work on this some more.
* Yes, a guy from an agency which assists blind people in learning mobility (and which is housed in the same building) came up to me and asked me, “Is this about the seminary?” Me: “Yep.” Guy: “Do they like Mark Driscoll?” Me: “Yep.” Him: “That’s really unfortunate.” That made my day!
siteseer wrote:
well, yes
is there a point where all these extremely wealthy guys, and the neo-Cals like Driscoll/Acts 29, the super-young stealth pastors, and the ‘leadership’ at the seminary(s) all end up tied to Dominionism?????
There seems like such a web of factors, with a lot of money floating around ….. it makes you wonder what is going on and to what end
(?)
siteseer wrote:
well, yes
mirele wrote:
Could be the sun more than the temperature. You might try covering as much as of it as possible with a piece of white fabric, or keeping it under a parasol stenciled “Shield us all from Mark Driscoll.”
siteseer wrote:
Really. What that the only time he’s “had the incredible opportunity of living as a Bible-believing, Jesus-loving Christian”? Or did he just live like a Christian, but he really wasn’t one?
mirele wrote:
A couple decades ago I was part of the Christian Legal Society, in fact was president of my law school’s student chapter for a year,and it was a university in Arizona. I surely know some of the people who were present at his talk, and it’s hard to imagine that those people would invite that guy to address them. Has the world of Christendom gone completely mad?
From the OP: “There was never an intention to deceive or confuse donors as to where their money was being used.”
There were a couple Martian memos from Nov 2011 which may indicate otherwise. The “Benefits” to Mars Hill?
——–
“The Global Fund could be beneficial in a number of ways, besides the obvious gain of increased funding:
• For a relatively low cost (e.g. $10K/month), supporting a few missionaries and benevolence projects would serve to deflect criticism, increase goodwill, and create opportunities to influence and learn from other ministries.
• Many small churches who may consider joining Mars Hill hesitate because they do not believe we support “missions.” While we need to continue to challenge the assumptions underlying a claim, the Global Fund would serve as a simple, easy way to deflate such criticism and help lead change in these congregations.”
——
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/10/01/mars-hill-global-fund-help-the-helpless-or-use-the-helpless/
We don’t know for sure who was behind the memos but it’s hard to imagine they were without Turner’s blessing.
Do you hear the cry of “I. WIN.” calling from Phoenix?
Oh echoed away like a roar in the distance
In moonlight carved out of steel
Singing “All the lonely, so long and so long
You don’t know how I long, how I long
You can’t hold me, I’m strong now! I’m strong!
Stronger than your law!”
— Al Stewart, “The Last Day of June 1934”
Law Prof wrote:
Affirmative.
Velour wrote:
2016 is a VERY strange year.
Law Prof wrote:
Or … was it always mad, but was relatively masked until the more sane elements started lifting off to become “nones” and “dones” and “gones.”
Has anyone considered a Go Fnd Me account to fund the lawsuit?
Janet Varin wrote:
Here is the previous GoFundMe with update:
https://www.gofundme.com/MarkDriscollRICO
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Then again, from “Carol”:
“Well, sometimes it seems impossible
That the game could get that rough
But the stage is set, the exit’s barred
And the make-up won’t come off
So you make your bow to the balcony
You light another cigarette
And the lights grow dim as the music starts
And it’s easy to forget”
So Turner proudly states that the lawsuit is over, for the moment, because the plaintiffs didn’t do something, not because he and Driscoll are innocent. Okay…
As someone up-thread asked, why is he updating TWW? Doesn’t he know that the Deebs are mere females? Maybe he thinks their names are Dan and David.
mirele wrote:
Yes!
Law Prof wrote:
Yes, it’s just reflecting how extreme our society (US) is right now.
Patriciamc wrote:
The division in the country is severe. I believe the division was purposefully ‘created’, and I’m afraid it was done cynically by those who believe in ‘divide and conquer’. The cynics were counting on us being ‘useful idiots’.
And speaking of psychopaths. Nothing more than an ad for his business. Trust this one as far as his ex boss. didn’t bother reading the whole thing. Next post please.
@dee
From the post: “… Mars Hill Church, under the direction of Mark Driscoll and men like Sutton Turner, was a poor excuse for a church that dared to invoke the name of Jesus Christ.”
True. In speaking of the Church, Jesus said, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” and furthermore, John 13:35, “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another,” and also, 1 John 4:21, “And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.”
The whole Ethiopia thing in Sutton’s promotions is not so impressive considering the backdrop of his history at Mars Hill (his neighbors in his own neighborhood): “…my heart for Ethiopia…”, he says, while ignoring the mess concerning the brethren in his own backyard or front yard or ‘hood, as a matter of fact.
Self-aggrandizement via the marketing of missions is nothing new. A white guy on a white horse is out to save the dark continent, emerging from the local darkness (that perhaps he created? or at the very least was complicit in silence?) in his own corner of the world.
Patriciamc wrote:
And in God’s eyes?
Law Prof wrote:
I wonder if members of the Christian Legal Society-Phoenix were encouraged and inspired? The meeting announcement promoted Driscoll this way:
“After taking the summer off, CLS has a special meeting planned for September! Pastor Mark Driscoll will be our special guest. Pastor Driscoll will bring an encouraging and inspiring message for our Christian attorneys that you won’t want to miss!
@ Bridget:
Nailed it.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Thinking of some of the old scandals (Jack Hyles, etc) and thinking back on the televangelist charlatans of yesteryear, I’d say it’s always been mad but it does seem to be escalating wildly and shooting off into all sorts of flavors of mad now.
The ability of people who have gone through similar things to find each other and communicate on the internet has been a huge change.
Excellent summary… This guy and MD treated the church as any modern company, with the associate values ( or lack of values there of)..
@ LT:
“There was never an intention to deceive or confuse donors as to where their money was being used.”
And yet almost 97% PERCENT of the money collected by the GLOBAL FUND was used in the U.S.
Since Mars Hill had always refused to make the Global Fund numbers public, I had assumed that they must be embarrassing. This is more embarrassing than I could have imagined.
I’d like to know how that money used for “U.S. Church Planting” was specifically allocated. What if their definition of “church planting” was just as slippery as their definition of “global”?
I just checked Warren Throckmorton’s blog and didn’t see anything about this, so Sutton probably only contacted Dee. Perhaps Mr. Jesperson can send a link? (I’m not on Disqus or social media.) If anything, this is a clue to how influential the Wartburg Watch has become.
This “update” from Sutton Turner sounds a lot like gas-lighting and blame-shifting. He’s trying to convince The Deebs and the WW crowd that he’s really a fine, upstanding Christian™ Gospel™ Leader of Men™. I’ve had my fill of those and I was planning to ignore him.
Until I looked at his website again. (BTW, Sutton, red letters on medium gray background is a bad design choice)
For some reason this Manly Man™ thought it was a good idea to put on his blog/website a post from his wife titled “Confessions of a Nagging Wife.” I’m appalled. The website seems to be some kind of brag-fest about how wonderful ST is, and in the midst of that is a post about his awful, nagging wife?
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Sadly, most “nones” will always remain that way – they have joined themselves to their idols. However, embedded in the “dones” and “gones” groups in any community is the real Body of Christ grieving over the condition of the American church and finding no place of worship. If a God-called leadership ever returns to church, they can be rallied … in the meantime, they are done with religion and gone to the wilderness.
Law Prof wrote:
Getting close … New Calvinism will finish it off. Prior to widespread apostasy (the next church age), spiritual madness will take control of the mind. New Calvinism is a battle for the mind – multitudes of Generation Xers and Millennials have already lost that battle. Propping folks up like Boles and Driscoll as their “pastors” is a symptom of their spiritual sickness.
Max wrote:
sadly, the chances of reconciliation are in further jeopardy due to firm political allegiances that are in direct conflict with the Christian euangelion. I’m thinking that maybe the nones, dones, etc. were in fact fleeing a lack of integrity, some seeking what mirrored their politics, and some seeking what expressed their faith in the Lord of Light;
both groups knowing that the two could not be had in unison in good conscience.
One of the great disservices to the Church in America was the first time politicians and Christian ‘leaders’ approved one another and these ‘leaders’ became political hacks. Sure, it worked for the politicians. Right now over 80% of conservative evangelicals are supporting one political party as of today.
I suppose part of being a ‘none’, a ‘done’, a ‘gone’ is that labels are being rejected that no longer make sense to a person’s conscience or sense of integrity. I can understand this, yes. In a way, maybe it’s a healthy move towards a more probative look at faith through what IS in alignment with honorable conscience. If this is true, then the ‘dones’ ARE mourning the American Church’s folly and they are seeking a more honest reflection of the Body of Christ in a faith community centered on Him, with no worldly strings attached to be manipulated by politicians.
If there is some truth in this, then I ‘get it’. Yes.
Jack wrote:
Jack, that was my thought as well.
Max wrote:
In my opinion, he is both recruiting for TTC and trying to win the hearts of the local Christian attorneys in the off chance (wink, wink) that he will end up facing legal trouble while he is in Phoenix. Whether this potential trouble is leftover from Seattle, or new issues in Phoenix, or a combination of the two, remains to be seen.
Max wrote:
Totally agree. Thank you for mentioning grieving. The 9Marks crew and other LocalChurch promoters say that we Dones are disloyal to Christ because we do not love his church. Speaking for myself and Gramp3, we *love* the church. We loathe what our church has become. While there may not be icons up front, there are true idols in the church. If the “leaders” would cleanse the churches of the idolatry of men and dogma, then I think many of us would return, but I do not see that happening. I think the Kingdom of the Gospel Glitterati will have to be completely torn down, and those of us who participated in building it need to repent.
Looks to me like the lawsuit didn’t proceed simply because the plaintiffs lack the money needed to pursue it. To me that is a classic example of everything that is wrong with our justice system. The wealthy are, in the words of Larry Norman, “more equal than others.”
The dismissal says nothing about the merit or lack thereof of the case itself. If the defendants think it signals some kind of absolution, I think they’re completely wrong. I’d like to know how much legal maneuvering was done to get to the point of dismissal. Did the defendants simply outspend and outmaneuver the plaintiffs until their resources were exhausted?
John wrote:
I don’t think the plaintiffs were ever able to serve Sutton or Driscoll with the lawsuit. I’ve stood outside Driscoll’s church every Sunday since March 27 (excepting three Sundays) and I have yet to see the man in the flesh. He’s as hard to see as David Miscavige (head of Scientology) but even I have seen Miscavige!
Sutton Turner should be absolutely embarrassed about the fact that less than four percent of the Global Fund monies actually went global. But I believe he’s shameless.
Gram3 wrote:
On the contrary! Because they are loyal to Christ and love His Church, the Dones are done with the counterfeit which misrepresents Him.
Burwell wrote:
My thinking exactly when I heard that news.
If you’ll forgive a somewhat tangential post, here’s a link to an interview with Joao Maia, one of the official photographers at the Rio Paralympic Games. Maia takes highly-acclaimed sporting pictures despite the fact that he is blind.
Gram3 wrote:
“Hulk. Smash.”
— Captain America in The Avengers movie
Christiane wrote:
“Jesus Christ: Wholly-Owned Subsidiary of the Republican Party.”
Christiane wrote:
Yes! Sadly, so many Generation Xers and Millennials have never seen the genuine Church, so they accept the counterfeit image of it. The “American Church’s folly” is not only tragic, it has become criminal in many places as reported by TWW. Such folly has become spiritually costly and an unprofitable undertaking when it comes to the souls of the men, women and children ensnared by it.
Me thinks Sutton Turner and Abdulla Saeed are really Ferengi in disguise.
Their rules of aquisition are strikingly similar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRo02Yfcbso
Slightly OT, Scot McKnight has a blog up about a complementarian conspiracy at ETS. Sounds like they are trying to do to ETS what they did to the SBC with power politics.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/09/16/alarms-in-ets-about-a-complementarian-conspiracy/
@ NJ:
The last post for Sutton Turner by Prof. Throckmorton is here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/08/25/rico-suit-dismiss-without-prejudice-sutton-turner-reveals-mars-hill-church-global-fund-figures/
Concerning Sutton’s statement here: “The 42-page public complaint was filed without the means to complete the litigation, causing significant damage to the reputation and business career of Sutton Turner.” Sutton speaks his true nature. This is about his ego and his Mammon based career. Sutton Turner damaged his own reputation. It required no help from anyone outside. “From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” What Sutton cares about is his reputation (pride) and his career (money.) He does not express concern for those that he mislead. Nor does he express the slightest concern for the damage he did to the reputation of Jesus. That is the only reputation that matters in the end. All of the money Sutton makes in his life is just going to burn and so will his damned pride. Jesus died for all the people under the Mars Hill Bus. That is going to stick to Sutton for all of eternity. To abuse people who are under your authority is to follow Satan’s ways. It has nothing at all to do with the real Jesus.
@ Muff Potter:
Love the Feringi comment. Roddenberry created them to represent Big Corporate Business values. The God of Mammon is what a true Feringi does worship.
Burwell wrote:
and mine…
Gram3 wrote:
Thanks for the “heads up,” Gram3. Legitimate alarms about ETS from Stan Gundry and Scot McKnight–and others!
mirele wrote:
Next time is it possible for an officer of the court to serve him the papers Sunday morning up front?
Deb Willi wrote:
Sounds a bit too late to me. They already have the undefined ‘manhood and womanhood’ smushed in.
Lea wrote:
All the doctorates pushed out of SBC seminaries are votes at ETS. I think you are correct that it is too late for ETS in this generation. After Grudem and Piper are gone, perhaps this will change. But there are so many of their disciples who worship them and every word that proceeds from their mouths, so this may be unrecoverable.
Christiane wrote:
You could not be more wrong. It is about as splintered as it can get now and this splintering goes back to the 90’s and the voting block breakdowns.
Gram3 wrote:
Like Artemis “Whom Ephesus and all the world Worshippeth…”
Max wrote:
Like Bob Greiner and ToJo becoming police chaplains to ingratiate themselves with the local cops. “One of Us! One of Us!”
Max wrote:
I remember Rich Buhler musing on the radio about the Ministry of Christ. About how during that time Jews who wanted to follow God and become right with Him went to the Rabbis reputed to have the best walks with God — the Pharisees. And after encountering them, they would walk away going “If that’s what God is like, I want no part of it.” And then this itinerant Rabbi from Nazareth would seek them out…
Never underestimate the criminal mind. We think “surely no one would ever do such and such” but then along comes the criminal mind without a conscience and guess what?
Max, I’m frankly astounded at your arrogance in thinking that nones are worshiping idols. It seems to me that some people who are religious simply can’t understand that a mind can function without supernatural beliefs. I say that because of words like yours. If I were to express a view similar to yours but from a none to someone religious I would be accusing you of either unresolved emotional problems or a lack of intellectual development and we both know that would be beyond rude, which is why I would never say something like that. even though I am a sincere atheist.
>@ Max:
@ RW:
RW, not all “nones” are atheists. Some nones simply do not desire to be affiliated with a religious organization; they are the ones that check “none” as the last choice on church/denominational surveys. That’s the group I had in mind in my comment upstream.
RW wrote:
If there is no intelligent purpose behind the universe, it means that nothing really matters because everything exists purely by chance. Consequently, it’s not clear to me why a sincere atheist would be concerned about morals or right behavior since morals are meaningless. It’s not that I think it’s wrong for sincere atheists to act morally, I just don’t know why they would.
Jessica wrote:
Worth repeating.