“What would men be without women? Scarce, sir…mighty scarce.” ― Mark Twain link
Updated 8/25/16 to remove one reference that could be misunderstood.
Desiring God featured a concerning post by Mary Kassian called Women Teaching Men — How Far Is Too Far?. In this post, she says she wants to help women know when they are showing their love for God and His word by teaching within certain boundaries.
Who is Mary Kassian and why should her thoughts be taken with a grain of salt?
Mary is beloved by the Neo Calvinists who have decided that she is an expert on feminism in spite of only holding a degree in Occupational Therapy from a college. She is called a *Distinguished Professor* at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary because of her supposed expertise. Kassian claims to have studied *Systematic Theology* on a doctoral level but has not received her doctorate in spite of studying for many years. As far as we can tell, she has never studied feminism in any serious way, and she has not published any scholarly, peer-reviewed papers on the matter. Apparently, such studies are unnecessary in order to be proclaimed an expert by certain seminaries.
For further information on Kassian, refer to our post Mary Kassian, Distinguished SBTS Professor, “Is Not a Particularly Credible Witness. We believe that Kassian's lawsuit against a driver who hit the car in which she was a passenger indicates that she is not necessarily a straightforward and humble person.
What does Kassian have to say about herself?
Kassian's decided lack of academic credentials does not cause her to be particularly humble. She speaks into existence her expertise. In the Desiring God article she refers to herself as:
1. One who has the spiritual gift of teaching as well as being a *gifted* teacher.
as a woman with a spiritual gift of teaching
… I am a gifted teacher
2. A teacher on the history and philosophy of women's thought!
I have also accepted speaking invitations when the church-fathers have asked me to give an overview of the history and philosophy of feminist thought, speak about cultural or women’s issues,
All of this to say that Kassian, although beloved by the Calvinistas, is not someone who should be considered an expert on her chosen topics. Perhaps this is why the following discussion has enough holes to sink the Titanic.
Kassian begins by discussing boundaries of sexual behavior in order to better understand why women should place boundaries on their teaching.
She starts off by discussing that many women who want to honor God ask, "How far is too far?" when it comes to teaching. She then compares this to how far is too far in premarital expressions of affection.
(How women who teach) ought to honor male headship in the church has many similarities with the question of how a young woman ought to honor the principle of purity. In the former situation as well as the latter, God hasn’t given us a detailed how-far-is-too-far list. He’s given us a broad principle, a clear this-goes-over-the-line boundary, and the gift of his indwelling Holy Spirit to help us figure out the rest in the wisdom of community.
Kassian believes there is a clear boundary to teaching by women but claims that the Holy Spirit will work out the details.
Well, what if godly people in different churches hear the Holy Spirit saying something different than what Kassian proposes? Look at this sentence again.
He’s given us a broad principle, a clear this-goes-over-the-line boundary, and the gift of his indwelling Holy Spirit to help us figure out the rest in the wisdom of community.
Here is the fatal flaw. She claims that the Holy Spirit will help us figure out what women can and can't do in the wisdom of community. Here is the problem demonstrated by two churches which both purport to follow the Holy Spirit.
1. The title of this post always makes me laugh. Tim Challies: Can the Neo-Castrati Be Far Behind?
In Challies' church women can't even read Scripture out loud on Sunday mornings.
“Because of the importance of the Word of God, at Grace Fellowship Church we ask certain members of the church to be involved in a Scripture Reading Ministry—a ministry of those who are specially trained and equipped to read the Word of God and to read it well. We consider this a teaching ministry, which means that it is a ministry reserved for men.”
2. This is a post about my former church. My Former Pastor, Pete Briscoe, Smashes Stereotypes With Women Pastors and Elders
In this church, there are no limits to women teaching. This is quote by Denny Burk in that post.
Briscoe and the elders say that they intend to be a “conservative” church that maintains a tenacious commitment to the Inerrancy of scripture. That is something to be thankful for. There are many who join feminist readings of scripture to a more explicit repudiation of the Bible’s integrity and authority. Briscoe and the elders do not wish to do that.
Kassian has a problem, but she skips on along with her post, never addressing the differing views of the Holy Spirit in church communities.
Mary uses the term *church father* to refer to the men who lead churches because some churches actually have women on staff!
The biblical term for a church leader is elder or overseer. Churches today often call their leaders “pastor.” Some churches call every person on paid staff a pastor — even if that person is a female and not an elder. To avoid confusion over all the conflicting terminology, and to be clear about what I mean, I will call the men who occupy the biblical office of elder/overseer, and who govern and lead the church family, the “church-fathers.”
Mary defines the *clear boundary* as honoring male headship in the church and this is not open to the Holy Spirit and collective community wisdom if I am understanding her properly.
She says that this is the bottom line from which all questions regarding women teaching must come.
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet” (1 Timothy 2:12). That’s the boundary we must observe if we want to honor the principle of male headship.
She says that women should not speak to the doctrinal and spiritual direction for the church.
I believe the question of how to honor Christ through the exercise of my teaching gift revolves around the issue of whether I’m acting like a church-father. Am I doing something that is, or will likely be construed as, setting the doctrinal and spiritual direction for my entire church family?
She generally does not teach on Sunday mornings
Because I want to honor 1 Timothy 2:12, for my good and the good of the church, and because I believe it presents a fairly clear boundary about women teaching authoritatively in the local church, I generally turn down invitations to speak on Sunday mornings. The passage indicates that the doctrinal teaching delivered in the context of the regular church meeting is the responsibility of the church “dads.” The way I honor and treasure God’s model of headship is to remain quiet and let the church-fathers instruct the family.
For Mary's teaching, however, there is frequently an exception.
1. The Mothers' Day Gambit
Apparently, its OK to teach men in church so long as it happens to be about mothers and the church father gives the female teacher *special instruction* whatever that means. Why can women speak on this particular date and not others? Is it just because a country has declared a day honoring mothers but not honoring any other women? Aren't the men sitting there listening? Might they learn something? Why can't a *church father* give special instructions on any other Sunday of the year? Is Mothers' Day an official church holiday?
I once accepted an invitation to speak on Mother’s Day, when a church-father prefaced my talk with the qualification that he wanted to honor moms and have me give special instruction to the women on that day.
2. The "I'm the feminist scholar" expert and therefore specially qualified.
Once again, Kassian is no scholar on this subject. Even if she was, does being a scholar on certain issues negate the Sunday rule as shared by Kassian? Is she saying if women are experts (or pretend to be experts) they get an exemption?
I have also accepted speaking invitations when the church-fathers have asked me to give an overview of the history and philosophy of feminist thought, speak about cultural or women’s issues,
Mary Kassian declares herself a gifted teacher but says this is not the point.
Competence is not the issue and this is deeply concerning to me. Since men are supposed to set the direction of the church, we should darn well hope they are competent. And, if those men had any intelligence, they would consult with anyone who is competent, including a woman!
Arguably, because I am a gifted teacher, I could do a better job of interpreting the text and delivering the sermon than many church-fathers do. But that would miss the point. It’s not about competence.
Women cannot teach even under male authority. She claims this is like a church telling you to sleep with your boyfriend or view porn sites!
First of all, I never bought this *under the authority* nonsense. Either the person teaches what they believe to be true or they don't. The pastor saying they can teach does not give that person any more competence in teaching the material.
If a church-father asked me to preach and doctrinally instruct the congregation, I would seriously need to consider if he was asking me to do something that went against God’s revealed will in his word. Church-fathers cannot legitimately give someone permission to disobey the Bible.
…Can an elder or pastor of a church rightfully give a woman permission to disobey this Scripture text? Let me ask you the same question using a different issue. What if an elder told you that you could sleep with your boyfriend and live together without getting married? Or told you that you could cheat on your tax return? Or lie on the witness stand? What would you think if a woman at your church told you, “I can read erotica and smut and surf porn sites because my pastor has given me permission, and I’m under his authority”? You would dismiss this “permission” as ridiculous.
But Mary speaks on Mother's Day with special permission from the church fathers. She also speaks when it involves feminist history. I guess this is in the Bible somewhere as an exception.
Kassian ends her post by discussing further possible exceptions to her boundaries.
1. Older ladies who are mothers can teach 17 year old boys but not younger ladies.
Maturity: Mother. I have found that as I get older I have more freedom to instruct younger men as a mother instructs her sons. A middle-aged woman instructing a group of 17-year-old men is a far different situation than a young woman instructing them
2. National speakers have leeway.
Obligation: Voluntary. There is no obligation on the part of the listener to attend the address. It is totally discretionary and voluntary on his part (unlike the obligation of a church member to attend weekly church services and obey that teaching).
Constancy: Occasional. A one-time address (flying into an area, teaching, and then leaving) is very different than the ongoing corporate instruction in the context of a local church body (as it would be, say, in a Sunday school class).
3. Give grace to those who are not in the same stage of understanding as Kassian is. This is called the "Bless their little, uninformed hearts" exception.
And then there’s grace. Because of grace, I need to recognize that my Christian brothers and sisters may be in a different stage in their understanding of the issue. I need to humbly acknowledge that I don’t have a corner on the market of truth. I need to extend grace when they draw lines of application more tightly or loosely than I would.
I find it difficult to read Mary Kassian's material. There are several reasons for this.
1. She is constantly touting how gifted she is in the area of teaching. If she really is so gifted, people would recognize it without her constantly telling them that she is. It's called humility.
2. She continues to promote herself as an expert on feminist history and culture. Yet she does not have any academic credential to give meat to her contention. She needs to either finish up her PhD or stop proclaiming herself as an expert.
3. Kassian's boundaries are difficult to follow since it appears that she finds loopholes for just about anything so long as she is doing it.
4. To compare wonderful women who teach in churches because the *collective wisdom* of their churches allow this to sleeping with a boyfriend is demeaning and derogatory.
5. Fornication??? Good night!