A Woman Should Not Be President: John Piper, Owen Strachan, Al Mohler

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Quick Aside: Thank you for your kind thoughts and prayers. Polly is going to short term rehab and we hope to have her back home on hospice in about a week. It has been a really tough road for her.

Women and the Presidency of the United States

The following post is not meant to be a discussion of politics and we would ask that our readers refrain from discussing, endorsing or critiquing any candidates. Hillary Clinton has a good shot at the Presidency and this makes the following theological discussion more relevant than ever.

A few years ago I asked a question which has never been answered from those within the CBMW tribe.

Assume a member in good standing of a complementarian church gets elected President. That church is planning on teaching a course on Christians in Politics. Tell me why she would not be more qualified to teach this course than some wet behind the ears elder.

Some complementarians might say that a woman can do anything except inside the church and in marriage. Only men can be the head of the household and only men can serve as pastors and elders. To this, I have been asking another a couple of other questions.

1. Why spend a gazillion dollars on organizations and conferences if it just boils down to these three items?
2. What exactly are the specific leadership actions men can take in marriage that a woman cannot?

The answer are rather simple.

1. There are many things that complementarians believe a woman can't do but they refuse to answer until push comes to shove. And they are beginning to shove quite specifically.
2.  They are unable to define anything a male leader does in marriage except to make a tie breaking vote.

Mary Kassian claims complementarianism has nothing to do with homemaking. 

We wrote The Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: If You Can’t Explain It to Me, You’ve Got a Problem. We documented a number of statements made by Kassian and others which demonstrate a lack of cohesiveness thinking on roles, etc. We looked at statements by Wayne Grudem, Al Mohler, Dorothy Patterson and others. Here is our conclusion.

So, I am left with this. I don't understand the practical application of comp theology and I don't think the CBMW crowd does either. If I don't understand it, I can assure CBMW that few people in the church or outside the church get it either. Yet, for some reason, the gospel is at stake.

Owen Strachan says God might not want a woman to be President and that the proper separation of gender roles should last for *all time.* (Think ESS debate.)

The Washington Post published God might not want a woman to be president, some religious conservatives say. Observe the title itself. Notice that the word *some* is used in the descriptor of religious conservatives. There is a hint of disagreement. 

Strachan knows he stands for what he calls "a culturally despised position." However, he seems to indicate that his position is the position of *many* evangelicals.

“The Old Testament is very clear that Yahweh desires men to lead,” said Owen Strachan before he stepped down last week as president of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. The purpose of the organization — to insist on separate roles for men and women in modern life — is itself an unpopular view, Strachan acknowledged upfront. “I do stand for a culturally despised position.”

But he believes the Bible has laid out spheres for men and for women that should last for all time. “A good number of evangelicals would probably prefer to see men lead in the political arena, and I would be one of them,” Strachan said. “Many evangelicals would say that men need to be the ones who step up and take responsibility, not simply for the home and the church, but also for the community.”

Strachan's conclusion:

Men should lead in the political arena. He does not qualify this statement. This could be taken to mean that women should not run for any political office: be it county sheriff, dog catcher or president.

John Piper: Sometimes electing a woman could be the lesser of two evils.

Read that again carefully. Did you catch it? Did you know that Owen Strachan is an author at the Desiring God website? I would suspect that this mean Strachan agrees with Piper on his viewpoints.

In Why a Woman Shouldn't Run for Vice President, but Wise People May Still Vote for Her, Piper, in answering a question about a woman running for Vice President, had this to say.

(Discerning implications of biblical teachings for) political life are nuanced and rooted in Scripture. They are also complex and controversial. So they don’t fit blogs well. But I’ll try. The gist is this:

I think that the Bible summons men to bear the burden of primary leadership, provision, and protection in the home (Ephesians 5:21–33) and in the church (1 Timothy 2:8–15). Add to this that these texts (and others, like Genesis 1–3) build their case not on the basis of culture (which changes) but on the basis of God’s design in creation (which does not change).

Therefore, I am not able to say that God only speaks to the role of men and women in home and church. If our roles are rooted in the way God created us as male and female, then these differences shape the way we live everywhere and all the time.

Now read this carefully. It appears he is saying that voting for a woman would be a less sin than voting for a supporter of abortion. It is still a sin but not so bad as voting for a pro abortion candidate.

Not only that, a person with my view may very well vote for a woman to be President if the man running against her holds views and espouses policies that may, as far as we can see, do more harm to more people than we think would be done by electing a woman President and thus exalting a flawed pattern of womanhood. In my view, defending abortion is far worse sin for a man than serving as Vice President is for a woman.

John Piper believes that women should not be police officers carrying his legalistic restrictions on the roles women far beyond just political life.

Piper recently answered the question "Should women be police officers?" We wrote John Piper Backs Himself Into a Corner and Even Reformed Complementarians Are Confused. 


(Begin)

Piper believes that men and women not only have role differentiation within the church and home but also in society. Here is how he distinguishes between "jobs for men" and "jobs for women." If a woman is in a job which is personal and directive, then it will cause men to be uncomfortable. Yes, he means all men, even those who are not involved in his sort of church.

There is a continuum from very personal influence, very eye-to-eye, close personal influence, to non-personal influence. And the other continuum is very directive — commands and forcefulness — directive influence to very non-directive influence. And here is my conviction. To the degree that a woman’s influence over a man, guidance of a man, leadership of a man, is personal and a directive, it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order. 

Here are two examples that he uses to demonstrate his rather unusual guidelines.

1. A woman civil engineer is OK. 

A woman who is a civil engineer may design a traffic pattern in a city so that she is deciding which streets are one-way and, therefore, she is influencing, indeed controlling, in one sense, all the male drivers all day long. But this influence is so non-personal that it seems to me the feminine masculine dynamic is utterly negligible in this kind of relationship.

2. A woman as a drill sergeant is not OK

A drill sergeant might epitomize directive influence over the privates in the platoon. And it would be hard for me to see how a woman could be a drill sergeant — hut two, right face, left face, keep your mouth shut, private — over men without violating their sense of manhood and her sense of womanhood.

He then repeats his advice, saying that there will be a breaking point for godly men and women if they do not adhere to these roles.

If a woman’s job involves a good deal of directives toward men, they will need to be non-personal in general, or men and women won’t flourish in the long run in that relationship without compromising profound biblical and psychological issues. And conversely, if a woman’s relationship to a man is very personal, then the way she offers guidance and influence will need to be more non-directive. And my own view is that there are some roles in society that will strain godly manhood and womanhood to the breaking point.

Just in case you are prone like me to think his advice is strange and possibly damaging, he reminds is all that we must be "submissive to Scripture" and he is pretty darn sure that he is one of those who is submissive. 

John Piper's dreamed up guidance is impossible to attain in most jobs in the world.

(End)


Al Mohler appears to believe it is preferable for men lead.

The Christian Post published Is it Biblical for Women to Lead in Politics, Military? Albert Mohler Answers. Mohler says he cannot answer the question definitively and equivocates on female leadership in the areas of politics, economics and culture..

"Even in creation, it was very clear that there was a responsibility given to Adam and Eve together, but there was a complementary relationship between them," Mohler pointed out, explaining that God said of Adam that it's not good for man to be alone, so He will make for him a helper or a complement fitting to him.

"I'm not sure we can give a definitive answer in terms of women serving in economic leadership, in cultural leadership or in political leadership… But the answer is not necessarily 'no.' …Women in the Scripture have had very important responsibilities," Mohler said, referring to Lydia in Philippi, who was involved in business, as an example.

There's "no one flat principle" that deals with the question of the role of women in politics for all times, he stressed. "In general, men need to grow up and take responsibility and fill these arenas with as much leadership as possible. But that doesn't mean that there's never a time for women to lead."

This apparent contradiction—how you can be leader of the free world and yet subordinate to some guy —has proved no less confusing to the nation's conservative evangelicals. For them, the justification for a Bachmann presidential run lies in a very careful, some would say tortured, theological interpretation that emerged during Sarah Palin's vice-presidential candidacy in 2008.

Slate sees the problem with female submission and the White House.

Hail to the Housewife was written during Michelle Bachmann's run for the presidency in 2011.

Why should I go and do something like that?" she recalled thinking. "But the Lord says, 'Be submissive wives; you are to be submissive to your husbands.'"

For non-evangelical Christians, this sounds ludicrous:  How can a woman who believes in submitting to her husband's will aspire to be president of the United States?  Is she going to have to ask Marcus' permission every time she wants to throw a state dinner?  

The article quotes Al Mohler who questioned Sarah Palin's domestic priorities. It dawned on me that he would never question a man running for Vice President while being a father to a large family. Is he implying that a father's presence is expendable?

Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said that while he liked Palin's political views, he worried about the effect of her candidacy on her domestic priorities. "It would be hypocritical of me to suggest that I would be perfectly happy to have Christian young women believe that being Vice President of the United States is more important than being a wife and mother,

Conclusion

I believe that the complementarian camp is heading for a split. Those who believe that women could be President are far different than those who believe such an accomplishment is a sin. Those who believe women will be subordinate to men forever are far different than those who believe that some form of submission is temporary.

One thing is definite. Women are and will be filling roles in all levels of business, politics, government, academics, etc. There is nothing in the Bible that clearly prevents them from doing so.

So where does this leave the minority who believe that it is unbiblical to have a woman as a President, a firefighter, an Air Force pilot, etc.? They will be come increasingly irrelevant as women assume these roles, fully believing that God has ordained it to be so. Many men will agree with them, especially as women continue succeed on all levels of leadership in business, politics and culture.

Comments

A Woman Should Not Be President: John Piper, Owen Strachan, Al Mohler — 778 Comments

  1. @ Velour:

    “Comps now have the highest divorce rate in the nation (Barna study), record amounts of domestic violence, incest, and sexual abuse (non-relatives). ”
    +++++++++++++++++

    do you have a link or reference to this?

  2. Gram3 wrote:

    People who are confessionalists go back to their foundational document–their confession–to locate the Biblically faithful view on an issue. That’s why you will hear Confessionalists refer to their catechism or their confession or some other foundational document like a Book of Church Order. Those documents set limits, and much of the discussion in Confessional circles is where those limits lie and whether the Confession and related governing documents prohibit or allow a certain belief or practice.

    And, with the SBC, flies in the face of “priesthood of the believer”.

  3. Gram3 wrote:

    People who are confessionalists go back to their foundational document–their confession–to locate the Biblically faithful view on an issue. That’s why you will hear Confessionalists refer to their catechism or their confession or some other foundational document like a Book of Church Order. Those documents set limits, and much of the discussion in Confessional circles is where those limits lie and whether the Confession and related governing documents prohibit or allow a certain belief or practice.

    And, with the SBC, confessionalism is a blatant contradiction of “priesthood of the believer”.

  4. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Velour:
    “Comps now have the highest divorce rate in the nation (Barna study), record amounts of domestic violence, incest, and sexual abuse (non-relatives). ”
    +++++++++++++++++
    do you have a link or reference to this?

    I’ve posted links previously on other threads. No time to look up.
    I’ve gotten some of the info through Twitter and info that has been sent out.
    Sobering.

  5. @ Lydia:
    I have a softer side: been sitting on the front porch and out in the yard today taking photos of hummingbirds. That was my Sunday worship service!

  6. @ Nancy2:
    I don’t doubt that. One of the things that gets on my nerves about the gender wars is a declaration of what is feminine and what is masculine.

  7. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Sorry, not keeping up and so am not familiar with acronyms WCF and NAPARC … what do they stand for? Thanks.

    Westminster Confession of Faith
    North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council

    I am not a complementarian
    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/i-am-not-a-complementarian#.V56raNQrLGg
    by Todd Pruitt

    If anyone accuses me of being a “thin complementarian” or “stealth egalitarian,” then that will be a clear case of slander since the documents to which I am bound (the Scriptures, the Westminster Standards, and the PCA’s Book of Church Order) make it clear that I am none of those things. My vows will not allow it. So from now on in addition to the other things you call me you may add Confessional.

  8. Ken F wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    Actually, no. Every single example of purity culture that we have studies results in the same thing: abuse of women.
    My wife calls it the virginity cult.

    Elizabeth Smart, who was raised in the Mormon purity culture, was kidnapped from her home as a minor, held for many months by a couple, and subjected to sex assaults.
    She has slammed the purity culture because she was taught that you were like a chewed up piece of gum and should be thrown away if you weren’t *pure*. It made her feel worthless as a sex crimes victim.

    She said that the most important thing to teach children is not purity but that they have value.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/elizabeth-smart-obsession-with-purity-makes-rape-victims-fee?utm_term=.dr8E2BQ35B#.pm9ZMn3xVn

  9. Short off-topic announcement.
    Just a heads up that we have two GoFundMe fundraisers going right now for some people here who are in need. (Other discussions to take place on the Open Discussion forum.)

    1. Jeannette Altes, long-time poster was laid off from her job and is being treated for a tumor. She has
    rent due on the 1st, the need for food and gas. https://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

    2. There is another fundraiser for a single mom and her son in Texas. They were horribly abused by their church when the son was a violent crime victim by a church member.
    The pastor and church members cost the mom her house cleaning jobs, her source of support.
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

    “Velour do you know how to post the gofundme here I have not figured out how to do that? As of right now I have 867.00 in back rent and water bill. This has accrued over time due to her raising the rents as this is standard every year it go’s up. We have between 200-265.00 with electric bills alone a month(it reaches the triple digits in and it’s humid), 30 a month for trash, 85 a month for car insurance, 350 a month for food, another 200 for gas ( you can’t drive anywhere here in this area without it being long distances ) I also have a 2003 Toyota which gets good gas mileage but my engine light and brake light is on and at this point as long as it’s not preventing me from driving it has to stay that way until I can do the repair. Billy’s school is coming up and school supplies plus what is needed for drivers ed is coming up in a matter of weeks. I know what drivers ed will cost 335.00 and school supplies shouldn’t be more than 65.00 but there will also be lab fees and maybe other materials for classes. Billy is really leary of playing sports now because of the kids use of the word faggot towards him, they bullied him on the field last year, and the most impact on him is the physical that is required. Billy can not get through the physical with out a severe break down due to having to lower his pants and therefore I can not I will not put him through that right now. He has cried the last two times to the point where even the doctor recognized that he had been abused. I share this only to let you know that billy can not enjoy sports like he use to so he has picked drivers ed and introduction to engineering as his electives in place of them. I work for the YMCA caring for over thirty horses you can imagine the physical labor in this Texas heat. I walk the length of the size of two football fields carting 50lb bags of feed and 50lb bails of hay when I feed. I feed twice a day seven days a week. I do this as a filler to make ends meet for the houses I lost and ones that cancel or ones I do not have anymore. Billy is an amazing kid as he helps me a lot of the time because it takes one and a half to two hours each feeding and i’m paid by the hour 8.25 an hour. I drive 16 miles round trip so when you take out taxes and gas i’m really getting pennies. The wonderful thing about this job is the horses are therapeutic it’s a solitary job and I do a great job that my job is never threatened. The little bit of pay comes just in time for a bill or food and gas that i’m desperate for that day. However it’s never enough as I just can’t get over the hump. I clean the houses I have left and those are such a blessing and i’m still working off two of the houses where I had to get paid in advance to meet my car and food needs along with utilities. I want you all to know that I work and I am doing the very best I can to accommodate our needs and be here for billy. I still spend nights up with billy with his ptsd, there is still a lot of fears and anxiety that he expresses and now that H.S. is starting I must confess that i’m a bit scared and excited at the same time. H.S. is challenging as it is when your just a regular kid without trauma and without any learning disabilities so for us with our life it is challenging. We still have a long road ahead clearing billy’s name and I am submitting my resume for jobs that I believe will bring a better financial situation and will accommodate billy where I can be here for him. We have needs that are right now but I’m going to just post this here and see God continually work as He always does please pray for billy and me. We love all of you and hopefully this does not get lost in these posts.”

  10. Nancy2 wrote:

    with the SBC, confessionalism is a blatant contradiction of “priesthood of the believer”

    Long-held Baptist doctrines of “priesthood of the believer” and “soul competency” didn’t make the cut in the 2000 revision of the Baptist Faith & Message … a direct result of that statement of faith trending toward Calvinism and creedalism.

  11. Lydia wrote:

    He was emergent before YRR.

    Yep, he hung out with Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, Don Miller and others in the emergent movement before he saw opportunities in New Calvinism. Those emergent folks were a strange bunch who have largely dropped off the radar screen. Remember the NOOMA videos and small group Bible studies … and Blue Like Jazz? A lot of SBC-YRR rebels cut their teeth on emergent stuff, before resurgent showed up. The Leadership Network played a key role in creating the Emerging Church movement, giving Driscoll a platform that he might not otherwise have had. Driscoll bailed out of emergent in favor of resurgent (New Calvinism) just in time … he wasn’t so lucky shaking resurgent.

  12. Bridget wrote:

    L. Lee wrote:
    OF possible interest:
    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2016/07/seduction-big-tent-compromises
    Well, Joseph Bayly so misrepresents what Egalitarian means that I will dismiss whatever else he has to say I. The article.
    “Egalitarianism is heresy. Egalitarianism’s core principle is the denial of distinctions, so men and women are the same…Islam and Christianity are the same…

    There you go, why that brilliant logician Mr. Bayly, oh he’s got me, an egalitarian, there, nailed it! Well of course if you believe in egalitarianism you simply must be denying all possible distinctions between anything and everything. Why it’s just axiomatic that you believe all faiths are the same, that men and women are the same exact thing, that all things are the same. Why of course, why didn’t I see it before? No leaps of logic there, Mr. Bayly, you logical machine, you!

  13. Law Prof wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    L. Lee wrote:
    OF possible interest:
    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2016/07/seduction-big-tent-compromises
    Well, Joseph Bayly so misrepresents what Egalitarian means that I will dismiss whatever else he has to say I. The article.
    “Egalitarianism is heresy. Egalitarianism’s core principle is the denial of distinctions, so men and women are the same…Islam and Christianity are the same…
    There you go, why that brilliant logician Mr. Bayly, oh he’s got me, an egalitarian, there, nailed it! Well of course if you believe in egalitarianism you simply must be denying all possible distinctions between anything and everything. Why it’s just axiomatic that you believe all faiths are the same, that men and women are the same exact thing, that all things are the same. Why of course, why didn’t I see it before? No leaps of logic there, Mr. Bayly, you logical machine, you!

    I invented a new Twitter hashtag for the Boyz: #TarzanGospel

  14. Max wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    with the SBC, confessionalism is a blatant contradiction of “priesthood of the believer”
    Long-held Baptist doctrines of “priesthood of the believer” and “soul competency” didn’t make the cut in the 2000 revision of the Baptist Faith & Message … a direct result of that statement of faith trending toward Calvinism and creedalism.

    That is so sad. And I’m not even a Baptist.

  15. Ken F wrote:

    My wife calls it the virginity cult.

    That’s apropos. I could also see a case being made to call it the “stay virginal until you get married ASAP cult,” because sustained singleness is a sin. (Sure, I’d love to find a nice guy and settle down, but somehow I don’t think that fits into their neat little plan, LOL)

  16. Daisy wrote:

    by Todd Pruitt
    ‘ If anyone accuses me of being a “thin complementarian” or “stealth egalitarian,” then that will be a clear case of slander’

    Pruitt sure likes to hurl that word around, slander. He seems overly sensitive, anyone know if he is at least consistent in his own utterances about others?

  17. Bill M wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    by Todd Pruitt
    ‘ If anyone accuses me of being a “thin complementarian” or “stealth egalitarian,” then that will be a clear case of slander’
    Pruitt sure likes to hurl that word around, slander. He seems overly sensitive, anyone know if he is at least consistent in his own utterances about others?

    I noticed that too.

    The boyz also use “gossip” a lot. And “bringing an accusation against an elder without cause.” And “persecution.” For the rest of us, it’s called being grownups and having to answer hard questions.

  18. @ Mirele,

    So glad to get your weekly Driscoll ‘palace’ reports. Like the news, ‘eye in the sky’ helicopter reports on traffic. 🙂

    In 2005, a pal who lives near Seattle and I went down to check out this new preacher guy at Mars Hill. I heard about MD and Mars Hill from an assoc. pastor who heard about him. That was an opportunity to see what was going on down there. At that time, there were no visible ripples in the pond. At least I can say that I have heard MD in person.

    Two years ago hubby was at a conference in Phoenix. Got to check go too and it out end of Oct. It has got to be ‘screamin’ hot’ down there now for you now! That is a phrase from a pal who lives near PHX and that’s how she describes the summers. How are you able to handle the heat out in the open–at your post??

    Anyway, glad to get your eye witness reports week by week. I feel like I am there with you each week. Cheering you on from the much cooler Pacific Northwest! Keep at it!

  19. Nancy2 wrote:

    I think Piper is in constant fear, every moment of every day, of having his “masculinity” compromised.

    Any man as insecure about his masculinity as Mr. Piper obviously is has already done the job himself.

  20. okrapod wrote:

    One other way also exists, where somebody ends up in a job where they have to be in control and tell other people what to do and basically kick a and take names when necessary and they find that distasteful and tiring and unnatural to themselves. So they do it on the job, because you got to eat and pay the light bill, but off the job they want no part of that. What they are doing is whatever is necessary on the job but when they go home they put down that burden and seem almost to be ‘a different person.’ I am of course describing someone I know, who does the job and does it well and hates it because that is not who she is in her heart. But that is how the world is any more-perhaps always was.

    This kind of reminds me of something else, a problem of introverts I’ve observed and read about. Sometimes introverts (both men and women) have to behave as extroverts in their jobs and when it’s not your natural temperament, it is really fatiguing. They get home and just want to retreat from the rat race and have peace. They may end up being more passive at home because they’ve used up all their stamina at work. That might be another dynamic at work in some of these cases.

  21. Velour wrote:

    She said that the most important thing to teach children is not purity but that they have value

    I love this. The most important thing to teach them is that they have value.

    This is similar to another thought I have. Instead of all these complicated “roles” for men and women, just the simple phrase “love one another.” Do we really need anything more than that?

  22. @ Bill M:
    If you take the time to read the various posts he has written on the subject you will see that he hasn’t been “hurling” anything around. The discussion has been quite polite and reasonable, in the main.

  23. @ siteseer:

    “Sometimes introverts (both men and women) have to behave as extroverts in their jobs and when it’s not your natural temperament, it is really fatiguing. They get home and just want to retreat from the rat race and have peace.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    or, substitute “church” for “in their jobs”.

    i reckon in much of evangelicalworld (hence ‘the kingdom of God’ :|), there’s no place for introverts. not wanted, not exciting enough, not useful for the church’s bottom line, not good for numbers and because size does matter. i’m sure this is an American thing. i’ve observed europe, at least, to be more down-to-earth about things, more live & let live, as opposed to America’s drive for BIGGER! BETTER! MORE! (as well as America’s fastidious puritanical squeamishness — little bonus observation, there)

  24. @ Lowlandseer:

    “If you take the time to read the various posts he has written on the subject you will see that he hasn’t been “hurling” anything around. The discussion has been quite polite and reasonable, in the main.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    does he accept feedback, comment on his blog?

    it’s one thing to write in the safety, peace & quiet of one’s own blog zone. when he participated here at TWW in the comments, his stock response to people was “slander!”

    The engagement he got here seemed to me to be simply honest questions, phrased with “it seems to me…”, or “I think…”, or “In my view…” Now, they were very direct questions. No mincing of words. No sweetness and sugar. Maybe that was the issue.

  25. @ Velour:

    “Should the lettering be in glitter?”
    ++++++++++++

    i prefer something simple. Black or white print, simple font. but i think the market will be huge — have the glitter edition, too.

  26. @ elastigirl:
    I thought he did well taking the time to debate here but there is a point beyond which it is fruitless to continue. He spoke of “bordering on slander” in relation to some comments made here about Carl Trueman – for example on 21st April 2016 – and he explained why he was replying in his defence.

  27. Velour wrote:

    The boyz also use “gossip” a lot. And “bringing an accusation against an elder without cause.” And “persecution.” For the rest of us, it’s called being grownups and having to answer hard questions.

    They’ve appointed themselves elders of everyone, too.
    “I’m an elder above reproach!”
    “Says who?”
    “Says me!”
    “Please give evidence you are my elder, and that you are above reproach. Also use the entire Bible to prove your theology.”
    “I’M BEING PERSECUTED FOR MY FAITH!”

  28. Nancy2 wrote:

    And, with the SBC, confessionalism is a blatant contradiction of “priesthood of the believer”.

    Yes, it is, and that is probably why the Big Boys needed to revise the BFM2K and make it into a confession that IMB and NAMB people need to subscribe to. Or else.

  29. Bill M wrote:

    Pruitt sure likes to hurl that word around, slander. He seems overly sensitive, anyone know if he is at least consistent in his own utterances about others?

    I don’t know about the consistency part, but the slander part is inside baseball with the ordained teaching elders. They can bring charges against each other for departing from sound teaching, and the accused one can allege slander which is a form of breaking the 9th commandment. It isn’t a Baptist thing because there are no church courts.

  30. Bill M wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    by Todd Pruitt
    ‘ If anyone accuses me of being a “thin complementarian” or “stealth egalitarian,” then that will be a clear case of slander’

    Pruitt sure likes to hurl that word around, slander. He seems overly sensitive, anyone know if he is at least consistent in his own utterances about others?

    Tell me about it. I was one of the first “slanderers” when he graced us with his presence.

    I am not sure what a “thin” comp means. Would “soft” comp be “slander”? (Just kidding, Todd…besides I wrote that so it can’t be slander!)

  31. elastigirl wrote:

    The engagement he got here seemed to me to be simply honest questions, phrased with “it seems to me…”, or “I think…”, or “In my view…” Now, they were very direct questions. No mincing of words. No sweetness and sugar. Maybe that was the issue.

    I forgot about that. He is ordained, and in that system, ordination confers spiritual authority. So that may be part of it. He’s used to being the teacher and not the listener.

  32. Velour wrote:

    .” For the rest of us, it’s called being grownups and having to answer hard questions.

    They would not last long outside their protected bubbles.

  33. Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ elastigirl:
    I thought he did well taking the time to debate here but there is a point beyond which it is fruitless to continue. He spoke of “bordering on slander” in relation to some comments made here about Carl Trueman – for example on 21st April 2016 – and he explained why he was replying in his defence.

    They were simple and much needed questions concerning Truman’s part in exonerating Mahaney as fit for ministry. Please remember that at the time there was plenty of public information out there that there were very serious problems at SGM. I do understand wanting to defend and protect Truman even if I don’t agree with it. But please do not forget all the victims of Mahaney’s Shepherding cult.

    Trueman was either duped by those men or not. Either way, he participated in a public show. It was announced to the world.

    He might want to stay in his protected bubble where he will never be questioned.

  34. Gram3 wrote:

    Yes, it is, and that is probably why the Big Boys needed to revise the BFM2K and make it into a confession that IMB and NAMB people need to subscribe to. Or else.

    It had to be narrow enough to exclude women and promote authoritarianism but broad enough to include ESS, Cal and non Cal.

    This was accomplished in some strange ways like Mohler insisting on adding an “s” to priesthood of believer. One cannot stand alone, you know.

    They also took out Jesus in an nefarious way. Few paid attention to the BFM. Now it is the go to statement for all things SBC. They even provided sermon series for the YRR on it.

  35. Velour wrote:

    Did he make his proclamation wearing a dress and sandals, after all that’s what Jesus wore.
    Is Owen giving up running water, electricity, his car and everything else? No modern medicine?

    RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
    And Predestined Anointed Elect has the highest rank of all. By Divine Right.

  36. Nancy2 wrote:

    Ruth Tucker wrote:

    .”….. But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised.”

    I think Piper is in constant fear, every moment of every day, of having his “masculinity” compromised.

    By Muscular Women(TM) begetting Unnatural Arousal(TM).

  37. Lydia wrote:

    How do they know they aren’t being fooled? Have you read the sections on reprobation in Calvin’s Institutes? According to Calvin, you can feel saved, act saved but really be reprobate and not know it until you die. Calvin refers to it as grace while you are alive but still, you are not chosen.

    So the Sons of CALVIN have to keep PROVING to themselves that they are Truly Elect. (“SEE? SEE? SEE?”)

    Once it was getting rich — excuse me, God blessing the Elect with wealth. Add entropy over time and you get the Prosperity Gospel.

    Now it’s Perfectly-Parsed, Utterly Correct REFORMED Theology — like Communist Party Ideologists with their Purity of Ideology.

  38. Velour wrote:

    That is so sad. And I’m not even a Baptist.

    It is indeed sad, Velour. The Southern Baptist Convention was once a great denomination. Sure, there have always been power-mongers and theological knuckleheads in the bunch (as in any religious group), but Southern Baptists as a people have been soul-winners – something that is sadly changing with the proliferation of New Calvinism.

  39. I would like to place my order for that awesome camo T-shirt now. Have fully recovered from the joy and laughter attributed to the wit of Velour, Nancy2, and others. Complete joy in the LORD and at total peace with being a non-comp woman in thy jeans.

    Please send my treasured T with these specs:

    1) Camo is an absolute must – original camo please so as to not plagiarize Real Tree, Mossy Oak, or the military.

    2) Glitter letters would be a class act – would prefer some sort of reflective material in the paint so the letters show up at night.

    3) Size – XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXLarge and the length must fall past my hips, so as to not show off any curve of my body to the comp men. I really don’t care to get blamed for something I did not do nor am aware of.

    And since Jesus never, ever stated a particular “dress code” in His teachings for assembling or communing together, (the dress and suit and tie is a man-made myth dreamed up the religious elites), it would be extra special to have the fabric made from the finest quality cotton to up the fashion “look.” Maybe we could do a little more research and market it according to the ways of that fabulous woman in the Scriptures, Lydia!

  40. Lydia wrote:

    According to Calvin, you can feel saved, act saved but really be reprobate and not know it until you die.

    Of course this is yet another error in reformed theology. Scripture is clear that genuine believers filled with the Holy Spirit will ‘know’ they are eternally saved. How? “The Spirit Himself testifies and confirms together with our spirit [assuring us] that we [believers] are children of God” (Romans 8:13-17). Calvin may have struggled with his eternal security, but I don’t! New Calvinists need to stop messing with the Trinity by diminishing Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They need the Son to get them in the door and the Holy Spirit to lead them on their way! Why would anyone in the right spiritual minds want to put their trust in Calvinism? But, of course, they are not in their right spiritual minds if they choose to do so.

  41. siteseer wrote:

    This is similar to another thought I have. Instead of all these complicated “roles” for men and women, just the simple phrase “love one another.” Do we really need anything more than that?

    well said

  42. ishy wrote:

    They’ve appointed themselves elders of everyone, too.
    “I’m an elder above reproach!”
    “Says who?”
    “Says me!”
    “Please give evidence you are my elder, and that you are above reproach. Also use the entire Bible to prove your theology.”
    “I’M BEING PERSECUTED FOR MY FAITH!”

    Having kicked Our Lord Jesus Christ to the curb, just exactly who do they say they got their ‘authority’ from ????

  43. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Velour:
    “Should the lettering be in glitter?”
    ++++++++++++
    i prefer something simple. Black or white print, simple font. but i think the market will be huge — have the glitter edition, too.

    OK.

  44. Daisy wrote:

    Under that comp position, the husband is to bow to the wife’s desires and whims and so on, at least most of the time
    (e.g., according to soft comp A. Byrd, the husband is to “give in” to what the wife wants, unless it’s a “big deal,” such as where, or if, to move to a new city).
    So even under that specification (the “husband is a loving servant leader”), the wife really holds all the authority, in a manner of speaking, at least some of the time.

    This goes to the Deebs point that CBWM has a hard time fleshing out what the implementation of Comp really should look like.

  45. ishy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The boyz also use “gossip” a lot. And “bringing an accusation against an elder without cause.” And “persecution.” For the rest of us, it’s called being grownups and having to answer hard questions.
    They’ve appointed themselves elders of everyone, too.
    “I’m an elder above reproach!”
    “Says who?”
    “Says me!”
    “Please give evidence you are my elder, and that you are above reproach. Also use the entire Bible to prove your theology.”
    “I’M BEING PERSECUTED FOR MY FAITH!”

    It was that (authoritarian) Membership Covenant filled with Scripture verses, baited like a Venus Fly Trap with seeming ‘sweetness’ to capture an insect, and then once signed the jaws clamp down. Here’s my former church – Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley –
    complete with screaming sessions by pastors/elders, demands for obedience and submission, blind obedience, no questions, no critical thinking skills. Being a Berean gets one threatened by pastors/elders in meetings, by phone, and in person that you aren’t one of us and are destined for Hell. They lie – and read out dear Christians – before hundreds of church members, ordering that you never be spoken to again. They did it to a dear doctor in his 70’s, faithful husband and father. He and his wife called the pastors/elders liars. They did it to a middle-aged woman in finance who left for a saner church. They did it to me, threatening me for discussing child safety (they’d brought their friend a Megan’s List pornographer to church, gave him membership, leadership role, and carte blanche access to children and said that ‘child porn wasn’t a big deal’ and they ‘trusted him because [he said a few words] about Jesus.” They also blamed me for a woman church member’s genetically inherited brain disorder and memory problems (which she refused to get medical for even though she gets a monthly disability check from the Social Security Administration for it). According to the pastors/elders, I was to blame for her memory problems.

    http://s3.amazonaws.com/churchplantmedia-cms/grace_bible_fellowship_of_silicon_valley_sunnyvale_ca/gbf_membership_covenant_100917_approved.pdf

    http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws

    http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith

  46. Todd Pruitt discusses some of the implications of ESS for the “big boys at the top table”

    “This entire debate has been disheartening in more ways than one. It is disheartening because there are men and women associated with CBMW who reject the Trinitarian errors that have been allowed to flourish there but who refuse to say a word publicly for fear of losing their seat at the table. So great is the fear of the top men that silence becomes the preferred posture toward significant theological error. I wish they would speak up and risk the rejection. They will sacrifice some speaking gigs, that is true. They won’t be able to write for certain well known blogs anymore. But there is a great deal of freedom in the minor leagues.”

    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/confessional-is-still-better-than-complementarian#.V59pVld4WrU

  47. nancyjane wrote:

    I know you meant well by your statement. I do honor Dee and Her family’s decision to care for Polly in their home. Different people make different decisions for different reasons.
    I have asked my children to put me in a care facility rather than care for me in their home.

    This discussion doesn’t really apply to Polly’s and Dee’s situation and so discussions of this issue (which is a real one) need to drop them out of it. Way too much assuming based on incomplete facts here.

  48. @ Lowlandseer:
    @ Deb:
    Good question. I can’t find it either. Here is what I know: within weeks of each other four SBC Neo Cal churches preached a series on the BFM2K that I know of.. This was last year. At first, I thought it might be connected locally to the KBC or SBTS. Not sure but can’t find it online as a pastor resource… which makes sense. It is not considered kosher for a pastor to repeat canned sermons although they do it all the time, they don’t admit it.

  49. @ Lowlandseer:
    There are some who have interpreted Calvin’s writing in the Institutes on reprobation which teaches one can have false assurance and not even know until they die.

  50. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    I have asked my children to put me in a care facility rather than care for me in their home.

    Caveat:
    have you spent time visiting someone in a ‘care facility’ recently?
    my story is this: following a hospitalization, my father was sent to a ‘rehabilitation nursing home’ as a transition. He told me that they were not changing the dressings on his leg and he felt increased pain. My brother, a physician, came to town one weekend and we went to visit my father: my brother lifted the bandages off, and examined my father’s wound: bright red, swollen, the dressings were old.

    My brother went out to the nurses’ desk and took my father’s chart and examined it: no recording of wound care or dressing change for a four-day perios. My brother drew a line through the chart from the last dressing change to that Saturday, and he initialed his notation. My father had to be taken to the emergency room for care.

    When my father was returned to the rehab center, I was called in to the office and the administrator yelled at me for what my brother had noted on the chart, saying ‘He had no right to make that notation.’

    I have no words for what we saw in that place: a gaggle of laughing ‘nurses’ and ‘aides’ in the staff room while lights were on for help all up and down the hallways. Empty water containers. I can’t go on without tears.

    As soon as we could, we moved our father out of that place. Please: ‘care’ facility is not a term to be trusted;
    FAMILY that loves will not expose a loved one to some of the sad neglect that is seen in ‘nursing’ facilities.

    I salute Dee and her family who love Polly and will help her. That IS ‘love’. That is special. We are told Polly has a terminal diagnosis, and someday, Dee and the Family will know that they did the best they could for her. And they will have that knowledge as a comfort in their grief. Don’t deny your FAMILY a chance to be there for you. Please.

  51. Lowlandseer wrote:

    So great is the fear of the top men

    THIS! THIS! is wrong on so many levels. Why are there “top” “men” And why is there “fear”??? This is exactly what Christ spoke about when he discussed leadership with his disciples. Yet every institution that calls itself a church is full of hierarchy and fear and top men. This is why I stay away from institutions called (c)hurches.

  52. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Once it was getting rich — excuse me, God blessing the Elect with wealth. Add entropy over time and you get the Prosperity Gospel.

    Or obeying your divinly chosen leader.

  53. @ Christiane:

    GuyBehindTheCurtain did not say what is quoted there. He was quoting Nancyjane.

    I’m sure every care facility is different, Christiane. I’m sorry your experience with one was bad.

    Overall, these decisions are very personal and include dozens of individualized contributing factors. Let’s not think we know what is needed and best for everyone else.

  54. In my opinion the decision as to end of life home care or care at a hospice inpatient facility or at a privately run facility is a complex decision because the choice affects all persons involved, because these situations run from good to bad in level of care, and because the costs are not insignificant. The ‘right’ thing to do is whatever is ‘right’ for the people who are involved in each particular situation.

  55. Bridget wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    GuyBehindTheCurtain did not say what is quoted there. He was quoting Nancyjane.

    I’m sure every care facility is different, Christiane. I’m sorry your experience with one was bad.

    Overall, these decisions are very personal and include dozens of individualized contributing factors. Let’s not think we know what is needed and best for everyone else.

    Thank you for the correction about Nancy Jane. I do realize what you are saying. My own son with Down Syndrome has multiple medical needs and is a resident in a Group Home at Eastern Christian Children’s Retreat in Wyckoff NJ. It is run under the auspices of the Dutch Reformed Church, as is very likely the best private facility in the Northeast USA. It was not a difficult decision for us at the time because we knew of the quality of care at Eastern Christian. I had a friend who had worked there as an aide while she was studying to be a teacher, and she had told me of the level of care given there and how inspirational it was for her to see it.

    You ARE right. My experience with our father was a terrible experience, and I cannot nor would not want that for anyone else’s dear parent. It is a PERSONAL family decision, as is right. But my story is a warning: don’t assume ‘care’ means care. When my aunt Yvonne was in hospital in Massachusetts, my cousin Anne stayed WITH HER twenty-four seven, and took her home for hospice.

  56. Okay, back to the topic of the post. In my opinion the issue we face is not so much should a woman be president but rather should this woman be president. On the one hand there were Elizabeth I of England and Catherine the Great of Russia, and on the other hand there was Ahab’s lovely wife, and then there was Isabella of Spain about whom some good and some bad can be said. The issue should not be gender.

  57. Lowlandseer wrote:

    Neither Calvin nor Reformed Theology take the view that you can’t know if you’re saved.

    That may be, but I can “assure” you that there are YRRs in my neck of the woods who confess they just don’t know for sure that they are the elect, including a young pastor of an SBC church plant near me. I have talked to some of them about that – they live in a tension of still wondering if they are included in the predestined elect. The regeneration before believing doctrine still have some of these young folks confused on where they stand with God.

  58. Lydia wrote:

    I have never understood this in light of total inability which is how total depravity is taught.

    Total depravity / total inability in a reformed grid completely tosses out the free will of man to choose anything! I was not predestined to eat fast food, although I do … I freely choose which fast food joint to pull into.

  59. elastigirl wrote:

    i’m sure this is an American thing. i’ve observed europe, at least, to be more down-to-earth about things, more live & let live, as opposed to America’s drive for BIGGER! BETTER! MORE! (as well as America’s fastidious puritanical squeamishness — little bonus observation, there)

    I’ve seen this too. I spent my last year of high school in Europe, my Dad worked for the Army as a civilian contractor. And yes, they have a totally different ethos about living life. To this day there are European grannies in bikinis on Majorca who couldn’t care less about a puritanical code which holds them in contempt for being ‘unseemly’ and ‘over the line’.

  60. Lydia wrote:

    Not sure if this is it. I believe the series was either 2 or 3 sermons.

    Hmmmmm … sermon #6 on “Salvation” was developed by Dr. “Calvin” Wittman (although I have not confirmed his theological persuasion).

  61. Ruth Tucker wrote:

    Back in 1995 I debated John Piper in front of a full house at Wheaton College. The topic was on male headship in marriage. I just went back to my manuscript and am pulling out the following excerpt. My last line was a loudly applauded by many, but most certainly not by all. (The first and last paragraphs are mine, the middle one is quoting him.)

    Dr. Piper offers a slightly different picture of the true woman—or, in his words, “mature femininity.” The illustration he uses is a man asking for directions–which in itself seems to be an oxymoron.”

    “A housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway. At that point she is giving a kind of leadership. She has a superior knowledge that the man needs and he submits himself to her guidance. But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised.”

    I’m not sure how a woman demonstrates mature femininity in such circumstances. Should she merely suggest that if he would like drive down the road two miles to the stop sign that would be fine, and that she would encourage him then to turn left and look for the big green sign pointing to the freeway? Or should she simply tell him where to go?

    I know I am really late to this discussion, but offering directions to a lost person is a kindness. They err (as they so often do) in thinking everything is about control and leadership.

  62. Christiane wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    This is similar to another thought I have. Instead of all these complicated “roles” for men and women, just the simple phrase “love one another.” Do we really need anything more than that?

    well said

    Agree here with regards to our Scriptures. Did not Jesus say the greatest command is to love the LORD with all your heart, mind, and soul (spirit)? And the second greatest command is love they neighbor as thyself?

    Me thinks there are many men and women adding their own opinions to the Holy Scriptures and thus Jesus would have said, “You brood of vipers……worrying about the outside of the cup instead of the inside.” There are so many “least of these amongst us who need love and ministering too, myself included so many, many times throughout life, and I believe Jesus commanded all believers to take care of the least of these, regardless of gender.

    Why is the visible church making such an issue of a non-issue….what are they afraid of? Was not the Great Commission intended for both male and female, Gentile and Jew? Thankful to our LORD Jesus that He did not distinguish between the genders and this was not an issue with Him.

  63. okrapod wrote:

    Okay, back to the topic of the post. In my opinion the issue we face is not so much should a woman be president but rather should this woman be president. On the one hand there were Elizabeth I of England and Catherine the Great of Russia, and on the other hand there was Ahab’s lovely wife, and then there was Isabella of Spain about whom some good and some bad can be said. The issue should not be gender.

    “The Issue should not be gender.”
    This.
    Throughout history, there have been fewer female rulers than males, but there have been good and bad, wise and ignorant from both sexes.
    The focus should be on the abilities and intentions of the candidates. Not the sex.

  64. Sorry this is off-topic, but it’s an urgent pray request to submit something that’s due today.

    TWW readers have been incredibly supportive of me in working on my book project about spiritual abuse and personal recovery, plus systemic abuse and organizational remediation. I’d greatly appreciate prayer as I finalize my proposal components and send them in today!

    In June, I submitted my initial book proposal to the one publisher that I felt was the only real fit for what I’m producing. I got in touch this morning to see if there was an update about the proposal, and to let them know I’d continued refining the material and the indicators of what constitutes healthy versus toxic.

    The acquisitions editor said to send in my revised proposal and they should have a decision for me BY THE END OF THE WEEK. I started editing this series in January 2009. It will be good, at last, to know where it stands with conventional publishing … and if they don’t feel their publishing house is the place for it, I’m okay with that. I’ll begin with the revised “Plan B,” which is probably to divide each book into three smaller segments and start publishing this as series as eBooks with a new release every few months.

    Thanks … brad/futuristguy

  65. Please keep Dee and her family in your prayers. Her mother-in-law, Polly, took a turn for the worse this morning and passed away shortly after noontime.

    Polly was alert last evening, and she and Dee had a wonderful conversation, which I'm sure will be a cherished memory.

  66. Muff Potter wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    And study history of the state church under both the magisterial Protestantism and Catholicism and what like was like for the peasants who were limited in life choices to get ahead.

    Which is one of the salient reasons why our founders took steps to ensure that religion would never become wed with the machinery of the state. They were much closer to those horrors than we are.

    I did some research on your John Q Adams quote. He was quoting his father in the book he started on him. The Life of John Adams. I downloaded the book for free on Google Books. I read the chapter that quote came from.

    Oh the irony. Adams was expected to become a clergy. He goes into his reasons why he did not in that chapter. It was most interesting to read how the beliefs AND behavior of Calvinists bothered him so much. Deja vu?

  67. Thanks all for praying … I got the revisions sent in. Thankfully, I will have plenty between now and the end of the week to keep me distracted while waiting for their decision!

  68. Deb wrote:

    Please keep Dee and her family in your prayers. Her mother-in-law, Polly, took a turn for the worse this morning and passed away shortly after noontime.
    Polly was alert last evening, and she and Dee had a wonderful conversation, which I’m sure will be a cherished memory.

    My heartfelt condolences to Dee & her husband, family, and friends on the death of her mother-in-law Polly.

    Keeping all of you dear saints in North Carolina in prayer,

    hugs from California

  69. Deb wrote:

    I have NEVER understood the adoration of John Piper.

    It makes about as much sense to me as Tulip Mania in 17th Century Holland (at its peak a single bulb sold for more than a house). A theory is that in relatively insular societies where there are few internal or external check and balances, or in societies characterized by greed and lust (for wealth, power, sex…or that one Great Godly Guru) a group think/mob mentality can prevail and utterly irrational behavior take place, such as lynch mobs, fraternity bacchanals, economic bubbles–or John Piper.

  70. Lea wrote:

    I know I am really late to this discussion, but offering directions to a lost person is a kindness. They err (as they so often do) in thinking everything is about control and leadership.

    Exactly.

    What’s the alternative for a woman to do when a man asks for her directions, “John Piper told me to tell you to ‘get lost'”?

  71. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    The fundamentalists who pretend there is a “plain reading” really haven’t got any excuse these days, since the internet has made language theory widely available to most anyone.

    Every time I hear “plain reading”, I remember the “plain reading” of the Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, circa 1970.

  72. Christiane wrote:

    @ Josh:
    I like your comment, JOSH.
    I sometimes think that the Church, by becoming heavily involved in politics, has weakened its moral imperative to point our countrymen to a much higher law.

    THAT is the lesson my church learned the hard way in the Middle Ages.

    Only when they had shed their political “hard” power were they able to exert real “soft power” influence.

  73. Karen wrote:

    Agree Daisy. Perhaps what these men need is a dog for a pet instead of a capable wife.

    But that would be Bestiality.

  74. Bill M wrote:

    Natural consequences is a good teacher for children but apparently not for pastors. The former church is facing a budget deficit of 20%-25% of budget. One of their solutions recently was to invite a pastor from a mega-church in the conference to come preach … on tithing. There is nothing like a good harangue on giving to increase attendance and morale.

    Just like Brezhnev-era USSR. Country and Empire were falling apart and the only solution offered was “Increase Political Consciousness among the Masses!”

  75. Deb wrote:

    Please keep Dee and her family in your prayers. Her mother-in-law, Polly, took a turn for the worse this morning and passed away shortly after noontime.

    Polly was alert last evening, and she and Dee had a wonderful conversation, which I’m sure will be a cherished memory.

    Praying

  76. Daisy wrote:

    Some of them want the USA to be governed under Old Testament rules, like sinner would be stoned to death.

    Like Daesh throwing homosexuals off tall buildings and cliffs because “It Is Specifically Written in the Koran”?

  77. Daisy wrote:

    I’ve been on egalitarian sites where the single women post the dating profiles of complementarian men they bump into online (without revealing the men’s names) to critique or laugh at the stuff the men say.

    Stuff like, “I am looking for a biblical, submissive woman to submit to my husbandly authority male headship in a meek and loving way.”

    i.e. “I am looking for a completely-domesticated animal With Benefits.”

    If I was still involved with dating services these days, I’d probably go something like “Smart and with a thirst for learning as Twilight Sparkle, as classy as Rarity, and gentle and nurturing as Fluttershy” and let the heads explode where they may.

  78. Ruth Tucker wrote:

    “But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised.”

    Piper says, “we all know…” but I don’t know. What is he talking about? Unless he means treating the other person with common decency so that both people find it a pleasant and helpful interaction. But what does femininity or masculinity have to do with it?

    He has a very… “unique” way of viewing the world.

  79. Ken G wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    Solomon, the man with wisdom given by the Lord God of Israel Himself, the wisest man in the world, received the Queen of Sheba, evidently as a legitimate co-head of state, rather than sending out soldiers to turn this usurper of proper masculine roles away at the border. She even tested him with riddles to determinbe whether he actually was wise–the insolence! If he was unduly ruffled by her gender and challenge and thereafter lectured her on her fitting place under a man, the Bible is remarkably silent on the point.

    He may have lectured her on her fitting place under a man because she left pregnant with a son, Menelik, who became the first Solomonic Emperor of Ethiopia!!

    That is also the traditional origin story of Ethiopian Jews, i.e. how Judaism came to Ethiopia.

  80. Lowlandseer wrote:

    Todd Pruitt discusses some of the implications of ESS for the “big boys at the top table”

    “This entire debate has been disheartening in more ways than one. It is disheartening because there are men and women associated with CBMW who reject the Trinitarian errors that have been allowed to flourish there but who refuse to say a word publicly for fear of losing their seat at the table. So great is the fear of the top men that silence becomes the preferred posture toward significant theological error. I wish they would speak up and risk the rejection. They will sacrifice some speaking gigs, that is true. They won’t be able to write for certain well known blogs anymore. But there is a great deal of freedom in the minor leagues.”

    This is a very sad indictment but I believe he is describing the issues involved in most religious organizations.

    And, hey, there is even more freedom outside of the “leagues”!

  81. @ dee:
    Dee, please accept my heartfelt sympathy on the death of your precious mother-in-law, Polly. I’ll be praying for your family.

  82. Patriciamc wrote:

    Ruth Tucker wrote:
    “A housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway. At that point she is giving a kind of leadership. She has a superior knowledge that the man needs and he submits himself to her guidance. But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised.”
    Someone needs to tell Piper that normal people simply don’t wonder if their femininity or masculinity has been compromised. We just get on with our lives!

    I keep asking myself why the strange man is in the woman’s back yard? Is that the only place she’s allowed to show herself? And she’s supposed to signal submission to him?

    If a strange man found me alone in the back yard and asked me how to get to the freeway, I would face the house and yell, “Hey, Hank and Suzanne! Will you please stop polishing the Glocks for a minute? There’s a man out here who needs directions.”

  83. Lydia wrote:

    They are now down to presenting the dualism as the normal. These are Women who must operate in spiritual and non spiritual roles in order to be Christian. She can be president of a bank leading many men but not teaching men at church. And the bank president must come home and be properly submissive to her husband.

    “Dualism” or “Schizo”?

  84. @ Lowlandseer:
    Thanks for that link. Todd Pruitt is right on the money with that statement. It is shameful that these Big Guys lack courage to do the right thing. Life is good at the top, and it is great to make money collecting the adulation and applause. For the glory of God, supposedly.

  85. Deb wrote:

    Polly was alert last evening, and she and Dee had a wonderful conversation, which I’m sure will be a cherished memory.

    Thank you, Lord, for that time. Praying for peace and comfort for Dee and the rest of the family.

  86. Hey all

    Thank you for your kind expressions of sympathy. We were preparing to take Polly home from Rehab on Wednesday. This morning around 7 AM she took a sudden, downhill turn which we think may have been caused by one of her tumors dissecting a large internal vessel.

    Due to her terminal cancer she was not given heroic measures which we all, including Polly, had agreed upon. They gave her medicine to make her comfortable, and with Bill and I holding her hands and praying out loud for the Lord’s peace, she drew her last breath.

    We are fulfilling her wishes to have her cremated and will bring her ashes to Cape Cod this coming weekend to be buried at the same site as my father in law after a service at her beloved Lutheran church.

    My husband and I have decided to take next week off and visit the grave of my father in Marblehead and take some time to visit family and rest.

    I learned so much from this experience and will write a post on what I want to call “A Good Death for All” in which I will talk about family estrangement, repentance, regrets and healing. Please pray for me since I am quite sad and very tired.

  87. Oh Dee & family, I am so sorry to hear of Polly’s death. Big enormous love to you all XXXX

  88. elastigirl wrote:

    @ siteseer:

    “Sometimes introverts (both men and women) have to behave as extroverts in their jobs and when it’s not your natural temperament, it is really fatiguing. They get home and just want to retreat from the rat race and have peace.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    or, substitute “church” for “in their jobs”.

    i reckon in much of evangelicalworld (hence ‘the kingdom of God’ :|), there’s no place for introverts. not wanted, not exciting enough, not useful for the church’s bottom line, not good for numbers and because size does matter. i’m sure this is an American thing. i’ve observed europe, at least, to be more down-to-earth about things, more live & let live, as opposed to America’s drive for BIGGER! BETTER! MORE! (as well as America’s fastidious puritanical squeamishness — little bonus observation, there)

    Hoo boy can I relate to this! Church can be extremely uncomfortable for an introvert, in many ways!

  89. dee wrote:

    My husband and I have decided to take next week off and visit the grave of my father in Marblehead and take some time to visit family and rest.
    I learned so much from this experience and will write a post on what I want to call “A Good Death for All” in which I will talk about family estrangement, repentance, regrets and healing. Please pray for me since I am quite sad and very tired.

    You have been through so much, Dee (and husband and family). It’s understandable you folks are tired and sad.

    Take is easy. Nap. I found I had to be very careful with things like cooking and driving after the death of a loved one. I just wasn’t myself and didn’t have good concentration.

    I am glad to hear you will be having some time off to pay your respects.

    I wish I were there to help out in some way.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour in California

  90. dee wrote:

    I learned so much from this experience and will write a post on what I want to call “A Good Death for All” in which I will talk about family estrangement, repentance, regrets and healing.

    Yes please, when you are ready.

  91. Friend wrote:

    I keep asking myself why the strange man is in the woman’s back yard? Is that the only place she’s allowed to show herself? And she’s supposed to signal submission to him?

    I live in the boonies, 20 minute drive from the nearest sheriff’s dept. when a strange man shows up in my yard – my personal, private territory ( and , hey, it has happened a few times), the laassssst thing I’m going to do is speak to him and behave toward him in a submissive, helpless, feminine manner.
    Oh, forget the personal, private territory nonsense. I’m not going to behave in a submissive, helpless feminine manner anywhere! Yeah, John Piper! I will compromise your “masculinity”! And I will not apologize!

  92. dee wrote:

    We are fulfilling her wishes to have her cremated and will bring her ashes to Cape Cod this coming weekend to be buried at the same site as my father in law after a service at her beloved Lutheran church.
    My husband and I have decided to take next week off and visit the grave of my father in Marblehead and take some time to visit family and rest.

    Dee, I know you still have a lot on your plate. Taking care of funeral/burial arrangements can be a mess, along with weeks of straightening out insurance, etc.
    I hope you enjoy your visit with family and that you all have beautiful memories to share and celebrate, and more beautiful memories to make.

  93. Law Prof wrote:

    It makes about as much sense to me as Tulip Mania in 17th Century Holland (at its peak a single bulb sold for more than a house).

    “Speculation is the Mother of all evil.”

    — Gordon Gekko —

  94. dee wrote:

    Please pray for me since I am quite sad and very tired.

    if you can, go and rest for a while

    the people who visit this blog will care for you now with their prayers

  95. Christiane wrote:

    if you can, go and rest for a while

    the people who visit this blog will care for you now with their prayers

    Yes we will. Retreat dee, retreat. Have Mr. dee take you to someplace quiet. Someplace with no service (cell phone), where there’s no WiFi, and where you can still see more stars at night than just a handful of the bright ones.

  96. Dee – your Texan friend here sends her prayers to you and your family. We went through this last year with my mother-in-law, and like Polly’s homecoming it was peaceful. May God be with you during these next few weeks.

  97. Law Prof wrote:

    It makes about as much sense to me as Tulip Mania in 17th Century Holland (at its peak a single bulb sold for more than a house).

    And that’s not counting Tulip FUTURES…

  98. dee wrote:

    We are fulfilling her wishes to have her cremated and will bring her ashes to Cape Cod this coming weekend to be buried at the same site as my father in law after a service at her beloved Lutheran church.

    My husband and I have decided to take next week off and visit the grave of my father in Marblehead and take some time to visit family and rest.

    I learned so much from this experience and will write a post on what I want to call “A Good Death for All” in which I will talk about family estrangement, repentance, regrets and healing. Please pray for me since I am quite sad and very tired.

    First, anything I can say at a time like this is going to sound really stupid.

    For now, make the arrangements, go through the motions, and when that frenzy is finished, go ahead and numb out. And if anyone tries to play Job’s Counselors on you and/or Bill, punch ’em out.

  99. @ dee:
    I am so sorry for your loss. Words are inadequate, but they’re all we have, here on this blog.

    Hugs.

    Do take care of yourselves, and please do get as much rest as you can, and down time, too.

  100. Max wrote:

    Lowlandseer wrote:

    Neither Calvin nor Reformed Theology take the view that you can’t know if you’re saved.

    That may be, but I can “assure” you that there are YRRs in my neck of the woods who confess they just don’t know for sure that they are the elect, including a young pastor of an SBC church plant near me. I have talked to some of them about that – they live in a tension of still wondering if they are included in the predestined elect. The regeneration before believing doctrine still have some of these young folks confused on where they stand with God.

    Here’s how John Piper describes it: “1 John 2:19 describes how we should understand the apparent dropouts: ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out,in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.’ In other words, the failure to persevere is not a sign that you can be truly born again and justified and then be lost. Rather the failure to persevere is a sign that you were never truly part of the regenerate people of God. That’s the explicit point of 1 John 2:19.”

    One way I heard it summarized is they give you with their right hand the teaching that the elect will never ultimately fall away (assurance of salvation for the elect), but they take it away with their left hand by teaching that no one can really know if they are elect.

  101. Dee,

    I understand the sadness and physical, emotional and spiritual exhaustion all too well.when you are ready there is a Christian Grief group called “Grief Share ” that my husband and I found to be really helpful.

    Prayers and thoughts heading your way..

  102. Ken F wrote:

    they live in a tension of still wondering

    maybe, someday, when this kind of worry becomes too much for these people, they will come to that place of humility where Christians have always know to pray: “Jesus, I trust in You”

  103. Dee, I am so sorry to hear about Polly. You and your family did a great job taking care of her. We’re all sending you lots of virtual hugs.

  104. dee wrote:

    Please pray for me since I am quite sad and very tired.

    Dee, I have been away today and just now read this sad news. Please know that I am praying for you and your family – for peace and strength in the days ahead.

  105. Dee,

    My condolences to you and your family. Please take care of yourself in the midst of all your busyness, and when you can, give yourself the time you need to grieve. My prayers for you will continue.

  106. Friend wrote:

    I keep asking myself why the strange man is in the woman’s back yard? Is that the only place she’s allowed to show herself? And she’s supposed to signal submission to him?

    Another glimpse into the ManaGAWD’s fantasies?

  107. Christiane wrote:

    Having kicked Our Lord Jesus Christ to the curb, just exactly who do they say they got their ‘authority’ from ????

    Their REAL god — themselves.

  108. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Having kicked Our Lord Jesus Christ to the curb, just exactly who do they say they got their ‘authority’ from ????
    Their REAL god — themselves.

    +100

  109. I hope it is okay if I post a link to an amazing video here since it is off topic. It’s off topic in that it is about Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it is on topic in that it deals with the realities of living under patriarchy and religious hierarchy and it details many of the same issues we discuss here. It seems that these sorts of systems produce the same fruit without fail.

    Brave high school student exposes abuse and corruption within Jehovahs witnesses:
    http://taze.co/2015/05/23/jehovahs-witnesses-youtube/#video

  110. dee wrote:

    I learned so much from this experience and will write a post on what I want to call “A Good Death for All” in which I will talk about family estrangement, repentance, regrets and healing. Please pray for me since I am quite sad and very tired.

    I look forward to what you have to talk about. Take your time and recuperate, I’ll be praying for you and your family and trying to be on my best behavior here.

  111. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I’d greatly appreciate prayer as I finalize my proposal components and send them in today!

    I’m late seeing your request, the day is over. But hey God is outside our concept of time so I figure, not knowing the outcome, I can still pray after the fact.

  112. @ Ken F:
    There is nothing unusual in what Calvin said because it is just another way of saying that a tree is known by its fruit.

  113. Dee, my prayers are with you and your family during this very sad time. May God be with you each step of the way. I too, look forward to reading your upcoming articles and how your faith in Jesus carried you through it all.

  114. Ken F wrote:

    “They went out from us, but they were not of us”

    As the New Calvinism bubble breaks, their followers will finally come to their senses and start exiting the reformed ranks en masse. To believers who were ensnared by the deception and are now on the other side of it, praise God that you are not “of” them any longer! You went out from them, because you were not of them.

  115. @ dee:
    Dee, you are an amazing blessing from God in every way – writing a post to share even from this experience. You have my love and admiration.

  116. Max wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    “They went out from us, but they were not of us”
    As the New Calvinism bubble breaks, their followers will finally come to their senses and start exiting the reformed ranks en masse. To believers who were ensnared by the deception and are now on the other side of it, praise God that you are not “of” them any longer! You went out from them, because you were not of them.

    They kicked me out because my light was too bright!

    Sam Cooke’s version of “This little light of mine” from 1964: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdsIjwwfhjk

    Proud to be “Keyed-Out” [Gram3’s TM for “Excommunication”] along with other
    Bereans here.

  117. Velour wrote:

    They kicked me out because my light was too bright!

    Their loss, Velour. You would have made a great ambassador for them if they had succeeded in fully indoctrinating you.

    P.S. Thanks for the link to Sam Cooke’s rendition of “This Little Light of Mine.” You might also be interested in a lesser known jazz-man that preached it like it was. Check out Rev. Dan Smith’s singing and harmonica playing “God Don’t Like It” at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG6n0CakXUs&feature=related

  118. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher UNITED STATES

  119. Update on my book project and the potential publisher. I heard back this afternoon with their final decision: They didn’t feel it was enough of a fit, so they won’t be taking it on.

    That was disappointing, but I also already knew this project likely wouldn’t find a home with a conventional Christian publisher or even a niche ministry publisher. This was the one company where I felt it had a chance, so I did what I could to present it as well as possible.

    So — at least now I know, and can move forward with some form(s) of self-publishing, hopefully in the relatively near future.

    Thanks again for your prayer and encouragement. The goal line is still much closer now than it was a few months ago …

    brad/futuristguy

  120. Lowlandseer wrote:

    You might find this article by a fine Scotsman to be helpful in that regard.

    http://www.the-highway.com/assurance_Ferguson.html

    Unfortunately, it does not add any clarity beyond what Piper or any other YRR teacher teaches about assurance of salvation. He has some great things to say about it, but he mixes it with this:
    “It is tragically possible to have a kind of faith and assurance that has never opened up the heart to the sweet influences of his grace which enable us to abandon self-reliance. It is not recognised as often as it should be that it is amongst evangelicals rather than liberals, and doctrinal rather than non-doctrinal Christians, that this danger is most subtle. So long as there is a vestige of reliance upon our righteousness, our service, our obedience, our knowledge, our understanding of doctrine, there can be no genuine assurance.”

    The primary problem with assurance of salvation from a reformed perspective is that no one can know whether or not they are truly saved because there is always the possibility that they have the false assurance described in this article. Reformed teachers stress the importance of “righteousness, service, obedience, knowledge, and understanding of doctrine,” but then turn around and tell us that if we do any of these things with even a hint of our own effort that we might have a false assurance of salvation. How does that help? The only evidence that one is among the elect is persevering in the faith, which means not backsliding. I think this is why the reformed camp can be so focused on keeping all the rules. It’s their only hope for assurance, but it’s not even something they can hope in.

  121. Thank-you Ken F for your comment. Iron certainly does sharpen iron.

    God’s ‘sharp’ words to us saints found in 1 John 5:7-13

    7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
    8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
    10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
    11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”

    These Holy Scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit given to John penned for us, assures us of the eternal hope we have in Jesus, and of our eternal home. To receive the penned words of Piper or any other man or woman regards eternal assurance is foreign to our Teacher, Jesus.

    When I remember the dung heap of sin in which Jesus, our LORD and Savior, delivered me out of and now my slate is washed clean by His blood/forgiveness, how can one boast and brag of their own self righteousness and rule keeping when one is at the foot of the cross seeking a godly sorrow for sin?

    Was not Jesus speaking to the very religious folks of His day when He called them, “You brood of vipers?”

  122. Karen wrote:

    at the foot of the cross seeking a godly sorrow for sin

    Scripture says that it takes a godly sorrow to effect genuine repentance, leading to salvation (2 Cor. 7:10). We need more of that sort of sorrow in the American church; easy believe-ism Christianity lite has darn near taken over.

  123. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Update on my book project and the potential publisher. I heard back this afternoon with their final decision: They didn’t feel it was enough of a fit, so they won’t be taking it on.
    That was disappointing, but I also already knew this project likely wouldn’t find a home with a conventional Christian publisher or even a niche ministry publisher. This was the one company where I felt it had a chance, so I did what I could to present it as well as possible.
    So — at least now I know, and can move forward with some form(s) of self-publishing, hopefully in the relatively near future.
    Thanks again for your prayer and encouragement. The goal line is still much closer now than it was a few months ago …
    brad/futuristguy

    Thanks for the update, Brad. Continue to pray for you.

    Do you suppose there are any publishers through Holy Hill (Seminary Hill) over
    at U.C. Berkeley?

  124. Velour wrote:

    Do you suppose there are any publishers through Holy Hill (Seminary Hill) over at U.C. Berkeley?

    Thanks for your prayers. A friend who knows the Christian publishing industry will be taking a look at the proposal, annotated outline, and samples to make any further suggestions. Otherwise, it’s likely self-publishing — most aspects of which I can do, but cannot do all aspects given the daily challenges just to keep afloat. So, we’ll see …

  125. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Do you suppose there are any publishers through Holy Hill (Seminary Hill) over at U.C. Berkeley?
    Thanks for your prayers. A friend who knows the Christian publishing industry will be taking a look at the proposal, annotated outline, and samples to make any further suggestions. Otherwise, it’s likely self-publishing — most aspects of which I can do, but cannot do all aspects given the daily challenges just to keep afloat. So, we’ll see …

    Welcome for the prayers, Brad.

    Good to hear about your friend’s help.

    Keep us apprised about self-publishing.

  126. Max wrote:

    Karen wrote:

    at the foot of the cross seeking a godly sorrow for sin

    Scripture says that it takes a godly sorrow to effect genuine repentance, leading to salvation (2 Cor. 7:10). We need more of that sort of sorrow in the American church; easy believe-ism Christianity lite has darn near taken over.

    Max, I never learned nor experienced/saw what true repentance looked like inside of the churches I attended. The leadership never spoke of godly sorrow, Biblical repentance, nor what it looked like in the life of an average believer, to turn away from sin. When church have a heavy handed hierarchal system that lords it over people, who dare within that type of religious system, confess their sins to one another, repent and receive forgiveness? All confessions within most organized churches are used by individuals to manipulate, control and domineer over the lower laity. The Holy Scriptures that state we have freedom in Christ, are rarely taught in context, placing a whole truck load of rules and regulations to the average born again believer, thus making ‘worm theology’ the staple of the institutional churches.

    How many of us have sat around a group of believers who are pointing out our sins, meanwhile their own lives/homes are full to overflowing with the very same sin? The last Jezebel sermon I heard came from a charismatic pastor who was secretly making passes at the married women he ‘counseled’ until he was finally caught! So all of the years of sitting under his ‘criticizing and condemning’ sermons as well as an authoritative/controlling leadership yes men and women types, came to a screeching halt for many of us who chose to worship Jesus, instead of ‘the man.’

    Perhaps this is another reason I simply cannot ‘go’ the complementarian route in my faith, far too many double, double standards.

  127. And you are correct Max, easy believe-ism has taken place because we have replaced reading, studying and meditating upon God’s Holy Word for ourselves, and passed that responsibility onto another man or woman who we believe is in charge of our faith, thus eliminating the priesthood of believers.

  128. Daisy wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    I can’t find that verse in Judges where Deborah was judge over Israel …… no wait. How could she be a judge over all of Israel (men included) and still be passive and demure and never instruct Barak in a way that would make him feel threatened as a man….

    I’m waiting for Piper to next instruct women to communicate indirectly with men by using smoke signals or pantomime.

    Men and women will have to play games of charades to exchange ideas.

    -Instead of just using the brains and mouths God gave them.

    I think I’d tell him that if he’s lost, he was predestined to be lost, & it would be sinful for me to help him out in any way…..

  129. Nancy2 wrote:

    Ruth Tucker wrote:

    .”….. But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised.”

    I think Piper is in constant fear, every moment of every day, of having his “masculinity” compromised.

    In fairness to Piper, if I looked like a pineapple trying to stand up on a tulip stalk, I’d be fearful too….

  130. Daisy wrote:

    Christian Thinkers Blast Theologian Wayne Grudem for Defense of Donald Trump as ‘Morally Good Choice’

    Grudem keeps digging himself into a deeper hole. He needs to go away on a long sabbatical and stay very quiet.

    Look for the New Calvinist who’s-who to start distancing themselves from Grudem, like they did Driscoll.

    The new reformation will fizzle out because it has too many arrogant leaders who like to hear themselves talk, always coming up with some “new” thing to outsmart their peers … sooner or later, they will all talk themselves into a corner.

    In the meantime, Jesus is alive and well!!

  131. Thank-you Daisy for pointing us to that Townhall article penned by Grudem. He states of Trump;

    “He is egotistical, bombastic, and brash. He often lacks nuance in his statements. Sometimes he blurts out mistaken ideas (such as bombing the families of terrorists) that he later must abandon. He insults people. He can be vindictive when people attack him. He has been slow to disown and rebuke the wrongful words and actions of some angry fringe supporters. He has been married three times and claims to have been unfaithful in his marriages. These are certainly flaws, but I don’t think they are disqualifying flaws in this election.” Wayne Grudem

    Out of the heart the mouth/pen speaks. Could these statements be applied to many a theologian in the western evangelical culture? And now Grudem actually believes Trump is a more honest, moral choice than Hillary Clinton. Seriously? What weed is this great(?) theologian smoking? And he calls ‘sin’, flaws? Read his whole article and was just aghast at the pining for excuses in not voting a ‘pantsuit’ into office.

    George Bush, a Republican, was blessed with an oh, so moral Republican Congress, and they did not even attempt to end abortion, nor did they have the desire too, via one simple executive order signed by the President himself. Who are we trying to fool here, morality does not live in the political sphere, true righteousness in found only in and through Christ Jesus.

    Following the mandates of Wayne, is NOT a morally good choice, thank-you very much.

  132. Velour wrote:

    Notice that Owen Strachan immediately cites the Old Testament patriarchal society
    as the way to run our society. No mention of the New Covenant we have in Christ, at all,
    ever.
    Did he make his proclamation wearing a dress and sandals, after all that’s what Jesus wore.
    Is Owen giving up running water, electricity, his car and everything else? No modern medicine?

    Owen should give up the Internet, at least. And convince the CBMW to not use the Internet for their message, as the Internet was not how messages was spread in those times.

  133. Velour wrote:

    Notice that Owen Strachan immediately cites the Old Testament patriarchal society
    as the way to run our society. No mention of the New Covenant we have in Christ, at all,
    ever.
    Did he make his proclamation wearing a dress and sandals, after all that’s what Jesus wore.
    Is Owen giving up running water, electricity, his car and everything else? No modern medicine?

    He should at least give up the Internet. And convince the CBMW to not use the Internet for their message, as the Internet was not how messages was spread in those times.