TWW Commenters Weigh In On Complementarianism

"If a complementarian man finds himself being taught by, or under the authority of a woman, I think he should endure it for a season."

Nick Bulbeck

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=37918&picture=womanWoman

Our post entitled History of Complementarianism – Part 1 has been so inundated with comments that it has difficult to keep up; however, I have persevered and have read through the 800+ comments (at the time of this writing).  One of the great strengths of this blog is our readership, which is quite an eclectic group.  We love it when they share their thoughts and ideas through commentary.  Several years ago Dee and I had dinner with one of our loyal readers who was traveling through our state, and I'll never forget what he said.  He explained how he really appreciated our blog posts, but what he enjoyed even more was reading through all the comments. 

Without a doubt, TWW has the smartest commenters on the planet! 

Knowing that many of our followers do not have time to read through so many comments under one post, I decided to pull out some that seemed to stay on topic and publish them in a stand alone post.  Hopefully, these comments will keep this important conversation going regarding complementarianism. 

In the meantime, I am working on Part 2 of the History of Complementarianism and plan to post it on Friday.  I have not included any of my comments below, but I did express my commitment to focus even more on the complementarian crowd.  There are so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ who don't have a clue about what is REALLY going on, and I intend to inform them to the best of my ability. 

Here are some interesting comments in no particular order.

waking up on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 08:37 AM said:

Maybe someone has previously posted and another has answered this question, but why all of the SECRET meetings to come up with definitions and form a group? To me, it seems they were trying to ignite a movement of power and not to simply come together and pray. When you start holding sessions, classes, workshops, conferences, write books and Bible studies on a movement, it then becomes a parachurch in my mind.

Through a glass darkly on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 09:36 AM said:

@ waking up:

This struck me too. But then, complementarianism is a caste system, where those with special anointing, knowledge, privilege, get to define the rules. In the end (I believe) it is not even about men and women, but about power and money… and how to keep it in the hands of a few. The men and women issue just happens to be the tool they used to build their empire.

I might be marginally cynical this morning.

Gram3 on Wed Jul 20, 2016 at 11:27 AM said:

Daisy wrote:

"Considering comp is mainly practiced by middle class American families, exactly how difficult is it for the man to lead? All that amounts to is the husband gets to control the TV remote and what shows they watch in a lot of those marriages."

I think a man who is not a good man would make it all about control. I think a man who is a good man will be weighed down with the responsibility of “being Jesus” to his wife. That is one reason this ideology is so toxic to men as well as women. As women, I think we gloss over the damage done to men. A guy who disagrees with Female Subordination is considered less than a real man in these circles. Or less than a real believer since he is considered rebellious against God every bit as much as a woman who gets uppity.

Lea on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 10:06 AM said:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

"Just look at the emotional maturity of men of HONOR in REAL Complementarian societies like the Taliban and Daesh."

Power corrupts. It is not good for men to have too much power over women.

FW Rez on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 02:24 PM said:

Victorious wrote:

"The 59 “One Anothers” of the New Testament* "

It is amazing that with so much guidance on how we should relate to each other that CBWM thought it necessary to build an organization around a few narrowly interpreted passages. Perhaps they saw a market for selling books and hosting conferences?

Nancy2 on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 10:30 AM said:

Christiane wrote:

"I’m Catholic. I have to be optimistic."

Christiane, the SBC looks a little different for those of us who see it from the inside.
When we hear preachers preach on Eph. 5. …. when we hear men repeatly say that women should not be allowed to teach men …… when women are not allowed to speak in business meetings ….. when women have to go to their little segregated “women’s classes” if we expect to be allowed to comment or ask questions in SS class discussions ….. when some men rant about how wrong it is for a woman to teach adolescent boys or be the church treasurer (just because a man won’t step up and assume his God ordained responsibility) ….. when church deacons repeatedly make jokes about women drivers …….. when SS teachers in the adult married classes go on “Jezebel” rants in class …..

There’s more. And yes, it’s happening now, on a regular basis.

Ruth Tucker on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 01:34 PM said: 

Domestic violence is clearly where complementarians are most vulnerable. It is a huge issue (and crisis) in marriages today and they have no response that doesn’t impinge upon their doctrine of male headship.

Donald Johnson on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 01:44 PM said:

On the lack of a common statement on abuse, I think it gets into the definition of spouse abuse. As an egal, I think that male supremacy ideas facilitate abuse. So I think the hangup was in the definition of what constitutes abuse.

Velour on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 04:18 PM said:

brad/futuristguy wrote:

"Wondering exactly how many on the current “Council” of CMBW do/don’t adhere to the Nicene Council (and related confirmations), as demonstrated through the recent critical dialogues about Trinitarianism, ESS, etc."

I am beginning to suspect that nothing good comes from these groups when they meet at hotel conference rooms, and draft statements about *pressing issues*. So far they’ve come up with the Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood/Danver’s Statement with all of its abuses and not found in Scripture.

Then there’s that Chicago group that invented the *inerrancy of Scripture*, which they mean *literal*. Scripture is much more complex than that.

They are always inventing something disastrous to solve the complexities of life. Couldn’t they just meet and pray?

Jamie Carter on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 08:32 PM said:

As Grudem's own work on the meaning of kephale states, he used the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG) project at the University of California-Irvine to look up the word in its database. There were 12,000 examples; but he felt it was too large of a sample and 'too much work' so he limited the results to just 3,226. He also used teaching assistants and their staff to check the material for him, he didn't actually look them all up himself on the computer. I find his explanation that it would be 'enough' unconvincing. When you want to prove something beyond the shadow of a doubt, you don't do half-measures and let other people do the work for you. You put in the time so that when a person stops you on the street and asks you to explain to them what source number 2,173 was and why kephale had to mean authority in that instance, you don't have to refer them to your teaching assistant to answer them for you. Somebody else had to be the one who input into the computer database what the source was, tell the computer what each word was, what it's meaning was and Grudem would have no idea if that work was double-checked by the various lexicons. Then his assertion that if anybody wants to challenge it, they should do their own work and check up all 12,000 (or more) sources just goes to show that he's shifting the burden of proof. It all sounds to me like it's little more than: "I told the computer to tell me so that I could tell you it's so." Looking at his results, it's odd that in the secular uses, kephale means "authority" in 2% of the instances (a total of 49/3226), yet somehow in Scripture, he identifies it to mean "authority" in 16% of the instances even though the word "kephale" appears far less frequently in Scripture – 75 according to Strongs. 2% of 75 is 1.5; if the use of the word was consistent, kephale cannot mean "authority" unless there was more frequent use of the word to mean "authority" and it wasn't so extremely rare to mean that – and that's just outright assuming the 16% he says it means "authority" really do mean "authority" odds are not all of them do.

Jamie Carter on 

….The ancient world was a loud, noisy, patriarchy and the author of Genesis was steeped in patriarchal tradition – it’s natural for any human author to read back into something old an explanation for why things are the way they are – and that’s what happened when the narrative of Genesis 2 is broken by: “And that’s why marriage…” The idea of perfect Christ-like headship in the Garden of Eden before the fall really isn’t stated as such, that’s why the ten reasons (actually eleven) are such an odd bit of logic to read. The problem is that they’re so firmly ingrained in Complementarian circles that nobody really listens when you point out the absurdity of the idea. Like if Adam had perfect headship and Eve had perfect submission, how sin still happened on his watch and how he didn’t recognize the serpent as one he had not named or thought it odd that it could talk or forbid his wife from speaking to it.

siteseer on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 01:53 PM said:

elastigirl wrote:

"it’s very apparent to me that CBMW, TGC, etc. folks all have their ‘Wayne Grudem’ card which they hold up whenever challenged on these kinds of things. They don’t even say much of anything, just hold up the Wayne Grudem card (or so to speak). As if that’s enough to dismiss any challenge."

Yes, a lot of roads lead back to this one man, Wayne Grudem. In writing his philosophy into a (so-called) systematic theology, he has legitimized all manner of error. If you are going to a church and you hear Grudem being referred to as an authority, beware.

Max on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 09:16 PM said:

The agenda of the new reformation is getting more sinister. Complementarity and New Calvinism have merged into one movement. Both are designed to control others into submission to a legal system framed in “grace”. Recovering Biblical manhood and womanhood has tag-teamed with recovering the ‘real’ gospel to create a tremendous challenge to mainline Christianity. To date, it has not been confronted except in the blogosphere. Thank you, TWW, for another excellent article.

Daisy on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 10:03 PM said:

@ Emily:

Naturally, CBMW spokesheads will say they denounce domestic violence, but the reality is, their gender theology is utilized by preachers and abusive husbands to keep women stuck in abusive marriages.

These women don’t receive practical help from complementarians, but are told to “submit more.”

Concerning domestic violence especially, the majority of complementarians remind me of this comment by Jesus:

“‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”

Complementarians all talk but don’t do anything to help women. Their doctrine and biblical interpretation harms women in abusive marriage, it doesn’t help them.

Some complementarians, such as Piper or Patterson, coach women to stay in bad marriages and get physically beaten by their abusive husbands.

So no, they don’t truly oppose domestic violence. If they did, they wouldn’t be giving women useless advice about submitting more and trying to convince them that divorce isn’t an option.

Control: The Reason The Gospel Coalition and CBMW Cannot Actually Condemn Spousal Abuse
http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2016/01/control-reason-gospel-coalition-and.html

Sam on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 11:51 AM said:

“On October 10, 1994, we received a letter from them saying that their board had considered it, and they would not join with us in the joint statement opposing abuse. I was shocked and disappointed when the letter came. I wondered then if their highest goal in this issue was to be faithful to Scripture above all and stop the horrors of abuse, or was to promote the egalitarian agenda. We ended up publishing the statement ourselves in CBMW NEWS (later renamed The Journal for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood).”

Unbelievable. How stupid do they think their readers are? This, (and other aspects of their history as discussed today) are filled with shameless martyrdom: “Oh, we tried to do the Lord’s work, but the evil heathen staff at CT tried to shut us down,” and, “Can’t you see how we tried to stop the abuse of poor, weaker vessels but those nasty wasty egalitarians refused to help us because they don’t care about women like we care about women.”

Yikes. And don’t get me started on Kassian and that whole trial business (and she still has the nerve to play the “I as a complementarian woman are superior to egalitarian women because I am making my Heavenly Father proud with my submissive and respectful behavior.)

Ann on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 05:59 PM said:

Who is this Mary Kassian? Why is she famous?!!

Until reading this blog, I’d never heard her name before. And so I looked Kassian up online. Let me state my disbelief: On her Amazon profile, I see a woman who looks more Harley Davidson than housewife. She has a short horrifically processed haircut, heavy makeup, and is wearing a leather jacket. In her YouTube videos, her clothing is ummm…loud(?) and accessorized with piles of costume jewelry. She seems like an absolute pro when it comes to public speaking–very comfortable leading others–and could mirror any professor of Feminist Studies. How is this the face of Complementarian doctrine???

I wish I could propose a better female figure, but unfortunately, where I’m from, women aren’t allowed to go to seminary. Is Kassian aware that the very doctrine she espouses is, in some parts of the nation, the very reason she wouldn’t have her job?

I’m sorry, maybe I sound awful, but I do not understand how a woman who looks and speaks like this:

…has, is some corner of the universe, managed to become a voice for my gender. She seems like the very thing she preaches against. Until I see evidence otherwise, I’m pretty sure the only woman benefiting from Complementarianism is Kassian.

Max on Wed Jul 20, 2016 at 09:19 AM said:

mot wrote:

"What is left of the SBC is not much–the whole organization is on life-support. I have been a Southern Baptist member for 42 years and a pastor for approximately 10 years and I see no one in leadership that can save the SBC."

Mot, as a 60+ year Southern Baptist, who has been active in various lay ministries for the past 40 years, I sadly agree with your observation. Denominational leaders have turned inward, debating theo-politics and vying for position rather than preaching the Gospel. A once-great denomination has lost its outward focus to go into the world to fulfill the Great Commission. It doesn’t take a highly educated man of the cloth to know that when Calvin gets more air time than Jesus, you are done as a city on the hill! The best we can hope for at this point, is for a remnant to rise from the ashes and pick up the Banner of the Cross to go into the world once again with Jesus on their lips and the power of the Cross as their energy. I personally put more faith and hope in local SBC churches here and there to accomplish this mission, rather than national SBC entities. It will take men of God to get us out of this mess; I don’t see many of those in national leadership these days, but there are still some in SBC pulpits across the land. May God put a fire in their bones for the days ahead!

Jack on Wed Jul 20, 2016 at 10:35 AM said:

I haven’t had a chance to read all the comments but the article itself is very interesting.

Based on the reading on this blog, the common thread with complementarianism, church contracts, focus on laws and patriarchy can be summed up in one word:

“control”

I think I’ve said this before but it appears that rather than embrace the positive strides we (as a society) have made in the last couple of centuries, the reformed movement seems to fear them.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, everything is connected in some way. The bible is as much a product of history as it is divine word.

For what it’s worth, it is really only in the last 20 years or so that women (in my province anyway) have not had to put their careers on hold. I worked as a nursing assistant for many years in the late eighties/early nineties. In our hospital (it was a mental health facility) the majority of nurses were women yet the administrators and supervisors were mostly men. This is because women often had to put their careers on hold (or leave them or go to work part time) to raise the family. Now with maternity leave available (at least here), women (and men too can access this as paternity leave) can take up to a year away from work that is subsidized by employment insurance (government fund that employers, employees & government contribute to). This was a great boon to us when our kids came along & my wife went back to work without any sacrifice to benefits or status. For a long time my wife worked evenings & I took the day shift and as a result I was very involved in child rearing. There are lots of “Dad” moments that I will cherish forever.

However this opening of doors for women (& other marginalized groups) has in many ways changed our society. There is more discussion and in some cases hard conversations are coming to the forefront.

Christianity is no longer the dominant voice in Western culture. I’m not sure that this is a bad thing, unchallenged religion (or political belief for that matter) never leads to a happy ending, as both history and the stories shared here can attest.

But this opening of doors, messy liberal democracy – imperfect as it is, also provides Christianity and by extension Christians with a safe base to discuss, challenge and engage the society as well. Most of us here do not need to worry about Inquisitors or secret police knocking at our door because of our discussions. However the so-called Calvinists here just want to put up barbed wire and keep their “sheep” in their pens. Complementarianism is just one tool they use to control the thinking of both men and women.

I’m not a fan of comp thinking, I firmly believe that men and women are equal in every way (yes I know men can’t have children). The bible is a product of its time. A “non-comp” example would be how warfare is conducted. In the Old Testament it was perfectly acceptable to exterminate & enslave your enemies. Christians would no longer consider this an appropriate response to the treatment of enemies . Well…most Christians would anyway.

Peace.

Max on Wed Jul 20, 2016 at 10:44 AM said:

Gram3 wrote:

"Thankfully, there are many more young women who are studying theology seriously, and I think that will be the ultimate cause of Female Subordination’s demise."

Agreed. And that may very well be the driver behind the increased emphasis on “the beauty of complementarity” in the New Calvinist movement. If they can prevent spiritually mature women from exercising their Biblical mandate to teach younger women of faith the truth about this issue, they can still influence them to buy the lie about gender roles. But sooner or later, reformed “girls” (as Chandler loves to call his female followers) will wake up and get the heck out of the movement (with or without their husbands/boyfriends in tow).

ishy on Wed Jul 20, 2016 at 06:07 PM said:

Daisy wrote:

"I guess you could argue that the women’s signing of such as page is voluntary, but if the whole concept is voluntary, why have women sign agreements about it???"

I had a professor who is a founder and extremely active in CBMW say he made his daughters sign contracts that they would submit to him until marriage and that he would pick their husbands.

I think only the women are saying it’s voluntary.

Of course, the Calvinistas seem very big on contracts in general. They want everyone to sign a contract to submit to their leadership. I bet they’d enforce them on men just as much as women if those men were refusing to accept Calvinista leadership.

ishy on Wed Jul 20, 2016 at 07:44 PM said:

Lea wrote:

ishy wrote:
I had a professor who is a founder and extremely active in CBMW say he made his daughters sign contracts that they would submit to him until marriage and that he would pick their husbands.
/
I hope when they turned 18 they skipped town fast as their legs could carry them.

It was actually a good bit worse than that. His oldest daughter was in her 20s when he said this, and he was saying as if reinforcing that this was the process they were currently going through.

Furthermore, he said he had to choose her husband for her because he had to make sure he was a “good Christian”. He defined “good Christian” as “someone from a well-known Christian family”. This is someone who taught pastors, and his idea of being a Christian had nothing to do with Christ.

Apparently, people who professed Christ from non-Christian families like me, or those who weren’t “famous” in the little evangelical world, did not qualify as “good Christians”.

A girl stood up and started quoting verses about how to get saved, and basically obliterated him theology-wise. I was so incensed that I could barely see who she was, and I wish I had thanked her.

Finally, we were greatly encouraged by this comment from Victorious.

Victorious on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 07:15 PM said:

I found this list of scriptural behaviors on the web that make absolutely no mention of gender, ethnicity, age, or status. I wonder what foundation (other than one word….head) Piper and other comps have built their entire movement on.

The 59 “One Anothers” of the New Testament*

1. “…Be at peace with each other.” (Mark 9:50)
2. “…Wash one another’s feet.” (John 13:14)
3. “…Love one another…” (John 13:34)
4. “…Love one another…” (John 13:34)
5. “…Love one another…” (John 13:35)
6. “…Love one another…” (John 15:12)
7. “…Love one another” (John 15:17)
8. “Be devoted to one another in brotherly love…” (Romans 12:10)
9. “…Honor one another above yourselves. (Romans 12:10)
10. “Live in harmony with one another…” (Romans 12:16)
11. “…Love one another…” (Romans 13:8)
12. “…Stop passing judgment on one another.” (Romans 14:13)
13. “Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you…” (Romans 15:7)
14. “…Instruct one another.” (Romans 15:14)
15. “Greet one another with a holy kiss…” (Romans 16:16)
16. “…When you come together to eat, wait for each other.” (I Cor. 11:33)
17. “…Have equal concern for each other.” (I Corinthians 12:25)
18. “…Greet one another with a holy kiss.” (I Corinthians 16:20)
19. “Greet one another with a holy kiss.” (II Corinthians 13:12)
20. “…Serve one another in love.” (Galatians 5:13)
21. “If you keep on biting and devouring each other…you will be destroyed by each other.” 
(Galatians 5:15)
22. “Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.” (Galatians 5:26)
23. “Carry each other’s burdens…” (Galatians 6:2)
24. “…Be patient, bearing with one another in love.” (Ephesians 4:2)
25. “Be kind and compassionate to one another…” (Ephesians 4:32)
26. “…Forgiving each other…” (Ephesians 4:32)
27. “Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.” (Ephesians 5:19)
28. “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21)
29. “…In humility consider others better than yourselves.” (Philippians 2:3)
30. “Do not lie to each other…” (Colossians 3:9)
31. “Bear with each other…” (Colossians 3:13)
32. “…Forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another.” (Colossians 3:13)
33. “Teach…[one another]” (Colossians 3:16)
34. “…Admonish one another (Colossians 3:16)
35. “…Make your love increase and overflow for each other.” (I Thessalonians 3:12)
36. “…Love each other.” (I Thessalonians 4:9)
37. “…Encourage each other…”(I Thessalonians 4:18)
38. “…Encourage each other…” I Thessalonians 5:11)
39. “…Build each other up…” (I Thessalonians 5:11)
40. “Encourage one another daily…” Hebrews 3:13)
41. “…Spur one another on toward love and good deeds.” (Hebrews 10:24)
42. “…Encourage one another.” (Hebrews 10:25)
43. “…Do not slander one another.” (James 4:11)
44. “Don’t grumble against each other…” (James 5:9)
45. “Confess your sins to each other…” (James 5:16)
46. “…Pray for each other.” (James 5:16)
47. “…Love one another deeply, from the heart.” (I Peter 3:8)
48. “…Live in harmony with one another…” (I Peter 3:8)
49. “…Love each other deeply…” (I Peter 4:8)
50. “Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling.” (I Peter 4:9)
51. “Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others…” (I Peter 4:10)
52. “…Clothe yourselves with humility toward one another…”(I Peter 5:5)
53. “Greet one another with a kiss of love.” (I Peter 5:14)
54. “…Love one another.” (I John 3:11)
55. “…Love one another.” (I John 3:23)
56. “…Love one another.” (I John 4:7)
57. “…Love one another.” (I John 4:11)
58. “…Love one another.” (I John 4:12)
59. “…Love one another.” (II John 5)If we agree these behaviors are not gender-specific, we will have to agree that they result in a relationship of mutuality in the body of Christ at large without exception regardless of one’s status, age, gender, ethnicity, or marital status.

Comments

TWW Commenters Weigh In On Complementarianism — 490 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    first?


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Second!!


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I love that list of one another’s! Notice how so many are about love. We do not err if we make that the focus of christian life.


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Here is what I got up…the Senior Pastor Dave Ward Miller of Rocky Hill Community Church in Exeter, California (EFCA) writes on his blog how a person should leave a church. My question….is this applicable? In the wasteland of modern evangelicalism does this work?

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/07/20/dave-ward-miller-of-rocky-hill-community-church-in-exeter-california-on-how-to-leave-a-church-my-question-in-the-hubris-of-modern-evangelicalism-is-this-applicable/


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    responding to ‘who is Mary Kassian’

    well, she wrote, this: “but Scripture paints a radically different picture about the true nature of authority. It teaches that:
    Authority is not about seeking prominence; it’s about giving prominence.”

    I would have to say that the PROMINENCE of a human person (male or female) has nothing to do with ‘authority’, as it is not ‘assigned’ and ‘upheld’;

    in sacred Scripture the understanding of the dignity of the human person comes from something far more permanent …. that the human person bears within them the image of God, and for that reason alone, is worthy of dignity and respect

    ‘authority’ has nothing to do with it, and a woman’s dignity has nothing to do with her husband granting it or ‘guarding’ it, or certainly not abusing it …

    if there never was a ‘husband’ in the picture, a woman would have the same place of honor in creation as a man ….. no need for ‘headship’, no

    the basic role of a woman is to live out life with dignity as one who is made in the image of God and men are not needed or required in this role

    the role of a wife and mother also demands that a woman not depart from her ingrained human dignity by giving up her God-given conscience and right to decision-making in accordance with that conscience

    the whole ‘authority’ thing needs to be re-examined in the light of the One Who spoke ‘as someone having authority’ and any ‘authoritarian’ departures from His Ways when He was among us need to be thrown out onto a dumpster fire, not lived out as ‘prescriptive’

    Our Lord IS THE PRESCRIPTION for the Fall, not the ‘submission’ of women to their husbands


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    Our Lord IS THE PRESCRIPTION for the Fall, not the ‘submission’ of women to their husbands

    And each in submission to Our Lord; the ground at the foot of the cross is level, not tiered. Each person standing there has their own feet on the ground, so to speak.


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy’s words:
    “Furthermore, he said he had to choose her husband for her because he had to make sure he was a “good Christian”. He defined “good Christian” as “someone from a well-known Christian family”. This is someone who taught pastors, and his idea of being a Christian had nothing to do with Christ.”

    Apparently, people who professed Christ from non-Christian families like me, or those who weren’t “famous” in the little evangelical world, did not qualify as “good Christians”.

    Ishy’s comment just kinda stuck in my brain ~ couldn’t help mulling it over.
    Considering the limited number of available, proper young bachelor’s in the churchianity world, would the attitude this professor has result in inbreeding within two or three generations?
    Perhaps it already has. That would certainly explain a few things!

    BTW: I fell so special! This old rough-and-tumble, blatantly blunt country girl has been quoted twice in a TWW blog queen post!


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Denny Burk has been named CBMW president!
    It just keeps getting better, doesn’t it?


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    A friend who is a Bible study leader and prayer warrior has to ask her husband for permission to use the car and leave the house.

    She loves her husband, however, IMHO, these two clearly have a strange interpretation of marriage relationship, particularly as Christians. They are on a learning curve, perhaps?


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I think Victorious nailed it. Come to think of it, Grudem, Piper and the rest of them really don’t talk about these passages. I wonder why….


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    A friend who is a Bible study leader and prayer warrior has to ask her husband for permission to use the car and leave the house.

    IF they were sharing the car, it would make sense to coordinate. Otherwise..


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sam wrote:

    I think Victorious nailed it. Come to think of it, Grudem, Piper and the rest of them really don’t talk about these passages. I wonder why….

    The feeling that I keep getting, over and over, is that most Bible passages don’t apply to women. ** ie, The Bible was written, in large part, with only males in mind. Only a select few passages apply to women.** And of course Piper, Grudem, and their ilk are whole-heartedly dedicated to purifying churchianity through gender distinction and division.


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    A friend who is a Bible study leader and prayer warrior has to ask her husband for permission to use the car and leave the house.

    Whoa, buddy. I usually let my husband know if I’m going somewhere, but I have never asked my husband’s permission to do so.
    On the flip side, when my hubby fell off that ladder and messed himself up good, I did take all of the keys for a week. …. I hid his truck keys, my car keys, the tractor key, the riding mowers key………
    I’ll freely confess that I have a bit of a mean streak. ~~~ I’m beginning to believe that a good, hard, incapacitating lump on the head might do some of these authoritative men some good!


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Denny Burk has been named CBMW president!
    It just keeps getting better, doesn’t it?

    Seriously? I smell desperation. Interesting that he is propping up Mary Kassian. I guess it is OK for guys to read her post as long as they get there via a link from Denny. Her internet covering.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:

    True, true. Now if only they could rid themselves of all the passages that do mention women doing things for God….


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sam wrote:

    I think Victorious nailed it.

    Yes. What a wonderful way to sum up the comments!


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Denny Burk has been named CBMW president!
    It just keeps getting better, doesn’t it?

    This is an interesting development.


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    The feeling that I keep getting, over and over, is that most Bible passages don’t apply to women.

    I saw your Grudem quote on the other thread and will repeat myself, that they make being a women all about what they can do for a man. They are focused entirely on men. They cannot see a woman as a full person on her own, only what she can do for them. If she can do nothing for them, she does not exist.

    This is a deep problem in their interpretation of the bible. They take a handful of verses, misinterpret them, and ignore the WEALTH of other data that says women are people, important, with roles and lives that can be lived other than as ‘complements’ to men. A woman is not a tie, a man can put on or take off depending on if it goes with his suit. The arrogant, nerve of these people and I would just ignore them entirely if they weren’t infiltrating my former denom and ruining people’s lives.


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    I love that list of one another’s! Notice how so many are about love. We do not err if we make that the focus of christian life.

    It struck me while reading the “one anothers” list that this actually may prove one of the strongest Bible-based arguments for the kind of Kingdom mutuality that destroyed the cultural differentials of race, class, and gender in an ancient world where slavery, imperialism, and patriarchy were the norms.

    There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28, NIV, from Biblegateway dot com)

    It should work in the modern world as well. The Scriptures themselves give us this “gridlock of Kingdom egalitarianism,” where the term egalitarianism is far more than just gender-equity, but a “belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, social, or economic life” and “active promotion of this belief” (from dictionary dot com).

    Meanwhile, complementarian theologians get all fussy and flustered about how no verses specifically command men or women to be, do, and say what their theology states must be done or else it is “sin.” They’ve built it all on inferences supposedly found between the lines of Scripture. If they would just fulfill the one anothers in that very lengthy list, surely all their gender issues would dissolve, don’t you think?


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christianity, as is reality, is full of apparent contradictions from our limited, human perspective. What I have observed (and I have far from the first to observe this!) is that so many conflicts in Christian “theology” and “practice” is when different groups take one “side” of a “contradiction” and “exclude” the other side… Victorious’ list of “one-another” as opposed to the “argument” for “comp” is a great example…
    I also agree it always seems to come down to “power” and “I am better than you because of ….”


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    New Calvinist leaders will live to regret playing the “comp card” so early in the game. They should have waited to release this aberration more gradually into the reformed movement. They may have some intellectuals at the helm, but they are not very smart. Their mistake began by drawing attention to themselves by forming a “council” on the matter and then secretly meeting to work out the details of the deception. As commenter Jack noted, “control” is the driver behind the new reformation. If they can control half their followers with this single doctrine, they are well on their way to controlling the rest of the bunch with other half-truths. I just don’t see much “grace” in their motives.


  22. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:
    A friend who is a Bible study leader and prayer warrior has to ask her husband for permission to use the car and leave the house.

    Lea wrote:

    IF they were sharing the car, it would make sense to coordinate. Otherwise..

    Let me finish that for you. Otherwise this is probably an abusive marriage. This man is exerting excessive control over his wife, who is by all accounts a Godly woman. I bet she has to rinse off the soap bubbles to his satisfaction, too. I bet she doesn’t even realize how controlling her husband is, and she spends way too much time trying to figure out how to submit better.

    My ex-husband never stopped me from using the car, but he controlled in other ways. In the meantime I was out there teaching Sunday School, leading a homeschool group, singing in the choir, playing piano for the children’s choir, and more. I was STRONGLY encouraged by my husband to overextend myself because it made him look good.

    Now? I don’t go to church. I’m considering attending the church around the corner, but haven’t been able to make myself do it yet.


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:
    It’s not coordination. It is subordination.
    Co- vs. Sub-. Big difference.


  24. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    it always seems to come down to “power” and “I am better than you because of ….

    I haven’t seen any one on this blog or in the greater Christian arena who has said “Calvinists are NOT arrogant!” Arrogance comes with the territory, starting with Calvin himself 500 years ago. He persecuted any believer who entered Geneva who would not bow to his “right” doctrinal belief and practice. The new reformers are no different – they truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel to the church that the rest of us have lost! And, of course, that would be Calvinism = Gospel; however, control, manipulation, and intimidation are not characteristics of true gospel preachers. New Calvinists only talk unity with other faiths until they can get the upper hand on you. The new reformers are doing that now in SBC and other denominations … calling for unity to buy them time to work their take over of resources they did not finance.


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    If they would just fulfill the one anothers in that very lengthy list, surely all their gender issues would dissolve, don’t you think?

    All of the *real* gender issues would dissolve, but *their* gender issues would not dissolve because the only non-negotiable gender issue for them is relative power and personal agency.

    I think the fundamental problem with their system is that they see individual humans as mere instances of the two sexual types. In their framework, we are not, first and foremost, instances of a human type (though I would argue we are individual persons and not merely instances) where the One Anothers would work to help us live in harmony. They do not see harmony between individual persons created in God’s image while pursuing Christ-likeness as being the point. They see pursuing *apparent* harmony between persons as a result of each instance of a sex type behaving as that type is ordained to behave as being the point. For some reason, they think God is more pleased by conformity to a supposed sexual type rather than individual persons living out a life of increasing conformity to Christ regardless of sex.

    Brad, you have much better ways of expressing these things. My words are not working for me this morning, unfortunately.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I’ve been looking for an article by Gavin Peacock that I read a while back. I finally found it. Here is his closing paragraph:
    “True manhood is cruciform loving leadership, like the true man, Jesus: who took initiative for God’s glory, and despite the shame, overcame sin, Satan, and death on the cross, rising again to give life and redeem masculinity itself.”
    Does this mean women cannot be of the “Elect”?


  27. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Denny Burk has been named CBMW president!
    It just keeps getting better, doesn’t it?

    That makes perfect sense to me. If you start feeling the heat on your comp teachings, put a professor at the point to defend the doctrine! And, of course, you want one from Genevea (= Louisville), ground-zero for New Calvinism.


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Thank you, Dee and Deb and awesome commenters. My impression that both New-Cal and Comp are primarily about control, power and money seems to be correct. It is hard to see Jesus in any of the things they emphasize and promote.


  29. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    and redeem masculinity itself

    Because that’s what the cross was about. Redeeming ‘masculinity’.

    Do they even hear themselves?


  30. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    True manhood is cruciform loving leadership

    Cruciform means ‘cross shaped’. So, true manhood is ‘cross shaped’ loving leadership?


  31. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It’s going to come to a point where they will be many more man in Calvinista churches than women. Women can have an upper hand by refusing to marry these imbeciles. There won’t be any maids, chefs, and sex.


  32. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    GC wrote:

    Thank you, Dee and Deb and awesome commenters. My impression that both New-Cal and Comp are primarily about control, power and money seems to be correct. It is hard to see Jesus in any of the things they emphasize and promote.

    Ditto, thank you all.

    My impression is that the Comp deal is a wild goose chase camouflaging what GC articulates as control, power, and money.
    Furthermore, the Neo-Cal and Cal deal is also a wild goose chase that camouflages, again, what GC articulates as control, power, and money.

    Finally, my caveat with the wild goose chases is that if the powers that be can keep God’s people forever debating and going around in circles about theology and relationships (workshops, books, conferences, all bringing in good $$$), the work of rescuing people like the victims of Chaplain Dewitt will never take place as we are consumed with the work to articulate and “rightly divide the Word”.


  33. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Can someone give the lowdown on Burk? I don’t know much about him.


  34. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    Can someone give the lowdown on Burk?

    I went to his site the other day, but all of my comments would be superficial, as all he did was link to Mary and all I did was look at his picture.


  35. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    I’ve been looking for an article by Gavin Peacock that I read a while back. I finally found it. Here is his closing paragraph:
    “True manhood is cruciform loving leadership, like the true man, Jesus: who took initiative for God’s glory, and despite the shame, overcame sin, Satan, and death on the cross, rising again to give life and redeem masculinity itself.”
    Does this mean women cannot be of the “Elect”?

    I guess a True Woman does not imitate Christ. Or something.

    The other thing that is odd in this statement is the part about Jesus taking the initiative to die on a cross. That is not what CBMW says about that. CBMW says that the Father sent the Son to the cross and the Son obeyed the Father. Redemption was not Jesus’ initiative but the Father’s in CBMWland. Is CBMW tacitly backing away from ESS?


  36. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    There won’t be any maids, chefs, and sex.

    True, very raw, very well said, and LOL.


  37. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    The other thing that is odd in this statement is the part about Jesus taking the initiative to die on a cross. That is not what CBMW says about that. CBMW says that the Father sent the Son to the cross and the Son obeyed the Father. Redemption was not Jesus’ initiative but the Father’s in CBMWland.

    The manly part of Jesus took initiative. The girly part submitted.


  38. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    redeem masculinity

    Mr. Peacock obviously has a gender perspective on the work of the Cross of Christ which has no Biblical support. Redeeming masculinity was not on the mind of Christ when He paid the sacrifice for the redemption of ALL people. This is a warped view of the message and ministry of Jesus birthed by the new reformation. Peacock tries to take the spotlight off of his belief by saying things like “women were free to be who they were created to be.” Of course, he doesn’t believe that women were created to receive and exercise the same spiritual giftings of men; they were created to be subordinate to men in every arena of life.


  39. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    And if CBMW is backing away from ESS, then what else might they be backtracking on? Danvers? Because if serious and conservative evangelical theologians start taking Danvers apart the way they have taken ESS apart, then I think that will be the end of Danvers as we know it. IMO the only reason Danvers has survived being scrutinized by conservative evangelicals is that conservative evangelicals are worried about things like abortion and the authority of the Bible. When said conservative evangelicals start to actually test Danvers, they are going to find out it is a structure built on fallacies and eisegesis and appeals to fear.


  40. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    however, I have persevered and have read through the 800+ comments (at the time of this writing).

    And I am responsible for like 543 of the 800. I am sorry. 🙂

    I feel honored one of my comments was considered good enough or whatever enough to be quoted. 🙂


  41. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    True manhood is cruciform loving leadership

    Cruciform means ‘cross shaped’. So, true manhood is ‘cross shaped’ loving leadership?

    In case Lea is being too subtle, let me sum up: These people are idiots. They are not ‘intellectuals’ in any sense.


  42. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    The manly part of Jesus took initiative. The girly part submitted.

    Yes, that appears to be how it works for them.


  43. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    Can someone give the lowdown on Burk? I don’t know much about him.

    http://www.dennyburk.com/


  44. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    The manly part of Jesus took initiative. The girly part submitted.

    They just play both ends against the middle to glorify Biblical Manhood (TM).


  45. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    Peacock tries to take the spotlight off of his belief by saying things like “women were free to be who they were created to be.” Of course, he doesn’t believe that women were created to receive and exercise the same spiritual giftings of men; they were created to be subordinate to men in every arena of life.

    There you go again looking closely at what they are saying and not saying. You are supposed to just nod and amen whatever they say because Authority. Clearly you are one of those rebellious Bereans trying to blur the genders.


  46. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Based on Mary Kassian’s explanation of authority one could conclude that, in this system, the husband’s authority derives from the wife’s willingness to submit. She states that the husband has no right to demand certain things of the wife. The expectation, however, is that the wife will submit to his will.

    One scenario of her explanations of authority and rights is that the husband would not demand that the wife surrender her car keys but would, instead, request that she surrender them. The wife’s appropriate response then would be to willfully surrender the keys as an act of submission.

    What if the wife doesn’t comply with the husband’s request? The logical conclusion is that she becomes the sinner who is in disobedience to God by not being submissive.

    By definition then, when the husband makes a request of the wife the only choices the wife has are to comply or to sin. The “request” then, becomes a de facto demand.

    Am I wrong? Am I misreading MK?


  47. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    Can someone give the lowdown on Burk? I don’t know much about him.

    He’s a professor at Boyce College, under the watchful eye of Al Mohler’s Southern Baptist Theological Seminary at Ground Zero. Nuff said?


  48. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    I don’t think so. This Peacock article is from 2015

    Yes, but 2015 was Before Trueman. I think the tide is going out very rapidly on ESS, and the boys at CMBW know that.

    I love peacock feathers, and I think the male peacock is a good metaphor/representation of the genderized theology of the Female Subordinationists. The men who are real men are not so concerned with outward displays like peacocks but rather with being like Christ. Gramp3 and other good men are not showy peacocks who are ***thrilled*** about demonstrating their Authority at every opportunity.


  49. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    This Peacock article

    From the article: “Paul tells the men of Corinth, “Act like men” (1 Cor. 16:13). Men should act in a masculine, not effeminate way. Paul doesn’t coddle men because he knows it produces self-pity. And self-pity is the blight of manhood because it leads to passivity. Abuse gets the headlines, but passivity is the silent killer of manhood. We know this from Adam’s passive indifference that caused the fall of man. In contrast, Jesus’ proactive passion was at the heart of redemption.”

    Oh Dear. Yes abuse ‘gets the headlines’ but the REAL problem is passivity! Better abusive than passive, if you want to be a godly manly man. *headdesk*


  50. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    Peacock tries to take the spotlight off of his belief by saying things like “women were free to be who they were created to be.”

    Oh, puuhhleeezzze! The same thing could be said about toy poodles!


  51. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    I think the fundamental problem with their system is that they see individual humans as mere instances of the two sexual types.

    I used to live in Moscow, Idaho, during the era when the Aryan Nations compound was still in northern Idaho (at Hayden Lake). One day I found some of their white supremacist literature on the front lawn. It happened to be a booklet that had a lot of background information about Aryan Nations’ beliefs — including that blacks and Jews were not the same species as whites. In other words, they did not share the same humanity, and this was the justification for subjugation. Given the news reports of how the white supremacists consistently treated non-whites, that seemed to have been a cornerstone of the Aryan paradigm. (See the history of how their Hayden Lake compound came to an end for an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations )

    In my studies of how paradigms work, I look at patterns of behavior in a culture and then work backward to what the underlying beliefs and values are that drive those behavior patterns. This seems to work better than starting with what people say about how they are theoretically supposed to act, because they may not actually follow through on their supposed rules in practice.

    Point being, regardless of what complementarian theologians say about the supposed parity of genders in their value to God and equal humanity, there have been enough dominant patterns of behavior over the decades of this debate to conclude some extreme complementarians seem to treat men and women as equivalent “separate species.” But, are we all of one humanity — or are there in effect two types? Same issue that comes up in Aryan Nations, but with race instead of gender as the dividing point.

    Is it any surprise that the demonstrated actions of differential treatment of men and women continues to cause people to ask questions about what the true underlying beliefs and values are about said parity and equality in gender complementarianism?

    I see the most recent dialogues about Trinitarianism, the Nicene Creed and Constantinople follow-up, and Eternal Subordination of the Son as crucial in bringing to the surface the actual beliefs and values of hyper-complementarian theologians. Their own scholarly peers in academia are holding them accountable to both the beliefs and behaviors of their gender system. The contrasts have been getting more stark about what the leaders in the Council of CBMW, and how some of their views on the Trinity stand outside the borders of historic orthodoxy that have been in place for almost 1,650 years.


  52. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    While I am delighted by Aimee Byrd’s critiques of wacko-complementarianism, I don’t know if I agree with everything she said in this recent page she wrote addressing some of Ruth Tucker’s points:

    Does Complementarity Just Boil Down to a Tiebreaker?
    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/does-complementarity-just-boil-down-to-a-tiebreaker#.V5DPcdQrLGg

    At one point, Byrd writes:

    The point of headship is unity.

    Yes, unity at the wife’s expense, especially in more extreme forms of complementarianism.

    Byrd also discusses Tucker’s comments about a husband and wife who disagree over whether they should eat at Taco Bell or another restaurant.
    Byrd brings up an example where a husband is offered a pay raise if he moves, but the wife doesn’t want to move.

    I wanted to comment on this part of Byrd’s post:

    I would say that the biblical model of marriage, as described in Eph. 5, would call for the husband to give himself first to sacrifice for his wife.

    This is something else I’ve noticed about complementarianism.

    Not only is wifely submission to be voluntary (as Byrd and Kassian both acknowledge) – so it’s okay if a wife says “no” to doing it, so far as I can tell

    -And it’s not a man’s place to demand submission from a wife, nor is it a Christian’s place to scold women online who refuse to submit to a husband, or try to convince them that Eph 5.21 equals one-way submission, woman to man but-

    But. If you go by the standard complementarian view that male headship is “servant leadership,” that the man is to sacrifice for his wife, then in reality, complementarian husbands should be deferring to their wives.

    To be consistent, complementarians should be stressing that husbands should be submitting to their wives, and what their wives want (even in “big” decisions).

    But that is not how complementarians usually argue about these subjects. They go on and on about how the husband gets “final say so” in marital disagreements – even Byrd goes that route in her post, while arguing that is not what complementarian headship is about. She just tries to qualify or finesse the crud out of that argument.

    Byrd slips into that mode, as she goes on to argue that while yes, a husband should defer to his wife’s wants, ultimately as “boss-man, leader guy” in a marriage, the husband really gets to decide if they move to a new city.

    Because supposedly, the husband is in a better position to understand how a move to a new state will really impact the whole family (or something).

    Byrd continues:

    As the head in the Christian context of the kingdom of God, he should be the first to sacrifice.

    … When it comes to something more substantial, like uprooting the family for a career, both husband and wife should empathize with one another. I do believe the husband is called to sacrifice first for the wife.

    But the first priority of that sacrifice for his wife is to consider the effects of their decision under the mission of God he is entrusted to for his family.

    About this remark by Byrd:

    As the head in the Christian context of the kingdom of God, he should be the first to sacrifice.

    Not that I agree with Byrd on her understanding of “head,” but even in her context, the man is not the “head in the kingdom of God,” (she seems to be generalizing), but ONLY OF HIS WIFE.

    I am a single woman, I have never married.

    According to complementarians, I have no “head.” Women who are single, divorced, or widowed are another weak area of complementarianism.

    Single, divorced, and widowed women do not turn to a man for decisions on big matters in their life, or in small matters* – whether it is to move or whether to eat at Taco Bell.
    (*Unless they are genuinely puzzled about something and like to shop around for advice.)

    Byrd writes,

    The thing is, everyone is called to submit in the tiebreakers. A marriage is a unity and decisions are made together.

    That sounds a lot like an egalitarian marriage.

    There is just so much double-speak in complementarianism, even from the more sober complementarians.


  53. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    FW Rez wrote:

    What if the wife doesn’t comply with the husband’s request? The logical conclusion is that she becomes the sinner who is in disobedience to God by not being submissive.

    You are not wrong, IMO.

    IF Male Desire THEN Female Submission ELSE Female Sin.
    IF Female Desire AND Male Submission THEN Both Sin.


  54. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    boys at CMBW

    boys …… Love your vocabulary, Gram3!
    And Gramp3, he’s a real man. …. no preening and strutting needed to prove it.


  55. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    there have been enough dominant patterns of behavior over the decades of this debate to conclude some extreme complementarians seem to treat men and women as equivalent “separate species.” But, are we all of one humanity — or are there in effect two types? Same issue that comes up in Aryan Nations, but with race instead of gender as the dividing point.

    Good comparison, Brad!


  56. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    FW Rez wrote:

    What if the wife doesn’t comply with the husband’s request? The logical conclusion is that she becomes the sinner who is in disobedience to God by not being submissive.

    You are not wrong, IMO.

    IF Male Desire THEN Female Submission ELSE Female Sin.
    IF Female Desire AND Male Submission THEN Both Sin.

    Sorry, have not read WW in a while….had other local battles to fight….
    I am assuming you mean the lack of female submission in the ” bedroom?”


  57. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:
    I wonder what Thabiti Anyabwile, Voddie Baucham, and Tony Evans, etc. would say about Brad’s comment?


  58. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Their own scholarly peers in academia are holding them accountable to both the beliefs and behaviors of their gender system. The contrasts have been getting more stark about what the leaders in the Council of CBMW, and how some of their views on the Trinity stand outside the borders of historic orthodoxy that have been in place for almost 1,650 years.

    Yes, they are finally being examined.

    Thanks for explaining what I was trying to say and giving an example. The neurons are crosstalking in my head this morning…


  59. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    K.D. wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    FW Rez wrote:

    What if the wife doesn’t comply with the husband’s request? The logical conclusion is that she becomes the sinner who is in disobedience to God by not being submissive.

    You are not wrong, IMO.

    IF Male Desire THEN Female Submission ELSE Female Sin.
    IF Female Desire AND Male Submission THEN Both Sin.

    Sorry, have not read WW in a while….had other local battles to fight….
    I am assuming you mean the lack of female submission in the ” bedroom?”

    No, generally. Desire was probably not the best word but I was trying to avoid “demand” or “command” because the Female Subordinationists could wiggle out of those two.


  60. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    or try to convince them that Eph 5.21 equals one-way submission, woman to man but-

    Correction:
    I meant Eph 5.22, there, not 5.21


  61. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I wonder what Thabiti Anyabwile, Voddie Baucham, and Tony Evans, etc. would say about Brad’s comment?

    They are in total denial about this. However, in fairness, they are concerned about the social breakdown in certain African-American sub-cultures (though that is generally true of modern society as well.) Tony Evans has been preaching about fatherlessness for a long time and urging men to not be feral fathers. Thabiti has been very strong (and right, IMO) about separating race or ethnicity from culture and not associating either dysfunction or function with “race.” Voddie Baucham is not as familiar to me.

    I think these men are correct about the problems but their solutions are not really solutions to the problems they see. “Assertion of Authority” is not the solution to problems in any culture. “Personal Responsibility and Caring for Others” is a better solution, IMO, and that does not mean hierarchy.

    But that is probably a discussion for the ODP.


  62. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    Our Lord IS THE PRESCRIPTION for the Fall, not the ‘submission’ of women to their husbands

    Yep. I’ve made that same observation a time or two before.

    Complementarians also behave like Feminism is the world’s biggest enemy, when I think Jesus talked about sin, and what is in a man’s heart, etc., being the real issues. (Elsewhere, the NT mentions Satan being another enemy of Christians and maybe the world.)

    I think secular feminism is some people’s way of trying to help fix, or reverse, the negative affects of sin against women.

    I don’t always agree with all of secular feminism or their proposed solutions, but I think they are trying to help women – which is admirable and not a bad thing.


  63. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I should clarify my comment about “assertion of authority” not being the solution. The assertion of authority of male over female is not the solution. That is merely a substitution of patriarchy for de facto matriarchy. The assertion of legitimate authority like fathers and mothers over children or teachers over students and the willingness of children and students to yield to legitimate authority would help a lot, IMO. Also (not being political here) the willingness of political leaders and other elites to submit to the Rule of Law would go a long way toward repairing our society.


  64. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Voddie Baucham is not as familiar to me

    Baucham pushes pure patriarchy, a father should chooses his daughters’ husbands, if girls further their educations they should do it online. He’s co-wrote some stuff with the Bayly Boyz.


  65. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Deb wrote:

    the

    Who was the president, Owen S.?


  66. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Daisy:

    I think Aimee is pretzeling to try to make this stuff work. What she describes, in most cases, sounds a whole lot like mutual decision making! You know why? That’s the only thing that works.

    Also, she quotes this person: As Robert Wall describes, the head is to continuously “think about the mission, describe it, communicate it, keep it constantly before the group, and develop goals on the basis of it”

    I don’t see ‘thinking about the mission’ anywhere listed as a marriage requirement for men. This is another gobbledygook add-on to the bible. I’m very tired of them.


  67. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    ishy UNITED STATES on Thu Jul 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM said:

    Can someone give the lowdown on Burk? I don’t know much about him.

    I comment on Denny’s blog, but about a third of what I write doesn’t make it passed ‘moderation’. It’s unusual in that on some topics, dialogue that is diverse seems permitted, but not on other topics. I pretty well know that if I comment on the Mary Kassian post, I will not be allowed through ‘moderation’.

    I kind of think that Denny has been chosen to take the incoming brunt of the new (and well-deserved) criticism of the ESS/CBMW brou-haha. The higher-ups are going to ride this out by hiding behind people like Denny. I can say Denny has never ‘lectured’ me or sent emails to me that are what I would consider disrespectful, as another blogger has done.

    I don’t know how much of Denny’s devotion to ESS/CBMW is due to his job obligations, or how much is genuinely unquestioned in his thinking, nor would I try to evaluate that. I hope he is not conflicted, in one way; and I wish he was in another way …. but he’s a younger man with a family to support, and it can’t be easy to be conflicted in matters of personal job security and the integrity of one’s beliefs.


  68. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    At one point, Byrd writes:
    The point of headship is unity.

    Yes, unity at the wife’s expense, especially in more extreme forms of complementarianism.

    Thank you for the reminder, because this isn’t ‘unity’. This is the appearance of unity. True unity is making a decision together, however you come about it. In simple things like dinner, you might trade off. You might go by who cares the most on any particular night. If there isn’t a give and take, someone will get resentful. I think that is true for big decisions as well. One always getting their way spouse and another always giving is not unity.


  69. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Thank you for the reminder, because this isn’t ‘unity’. This is the appearance of unity. True unity is making a decision together, however you come about it.

    And it’s hard, which is why I think these guys who push extreme complementarianism and church authority are simply cowards in the end. They want to just tell everyone what to do and what to think instead of trying to work it out the hard way.


  70. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    As commenter Jack noted, “control” is the driver behind the new reformation. If they can control half their followers with this single doctrine, they are well on their way to controlling the rest of the bunch with other half-truths. I just don’t see much “grace” in their motives.

    The Comp promoters seem to be slow learners. The Southern Baptists are losing a whopping 200,000 living members a year, completely fed up with these teachings, NeoCalvinism, and Authoritarianism.

    If a CEO of a business lost 200,000 customers a year, the Board would fire the CEO and get a better one.

    Additionally, the Comp promoting denominations can now claim the distinction of having the highest divorce rate in the nation (Barna Study), and even Atheists do better at marriage according to the research than Comps.

    Comp-teaching churches also have record amounts of domestic violence, incest, and sexual abuse. There is going to be a new need for domestic violence services and other support services for women and children coming out of these abusive churches. I recently wrote my local YWCA and domestic violence shelter and warned them about the spread of NeoCalvinism and Patriarchy, including in mainline denominations, the stealth take overs, and the incredible damage being done and that, I think, more services will be needed for these women.


  71. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    And it’s hard

    Indeed. I think that’s what Ruth was getting at. Just saying ‘the husband decides’ doesn’t make it all happy happy joy joy when two people disagree.


  72. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I used to live in Moscow, Idaho, during the era when the Aryan Nations compound was still in northern Idaho (at Hayden Lake). One day I found some of their white supremacist literature on the front lawn. It happened to be a booklet that had a lot of background information about Aryan Nations’ beliefs — including that blacks and Jews were not the same species as whites. In other words, they did not share the same humanity, and this was the justification for subjugation. Given the news reports of how the white supremacists consistently treated non-whites, that seemed to have been a cornerstone of the Aryan paradigm. (See the history of how their Hayden Lake compound came to an end for an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations )

    In my studies of how paradigms work, I look at patterns of behavior in a culture and then work backward to what the underlying beliefs and values are that drive those behavior patterns. This seems to work better than starting with what people say about how they are theoretically supposed to act, because they may not actually follow through on their supposed rules in practice.

    Point being, regardless of what complementarian theologians say about the supposed parity of genders in their value to God and equal humanity, there have been enough dominant patterns of behavior over the decades of this debate to conclude some extreme complementarians seem to treat men and women as equivalent “separate species.” But, are we all of one humanity — or are there in effect two types? Same issue that comes up in Aryan Nations, but with race instead of gender as the dividing point.

    Is it any surprise that the demonstrated actions of differential treatment of men and women continues to cause people to ask questions about what the true underlying beliefs and values are about said parity and equality in gender complementarianism?

    I see the most recent dialogues about Trinitarianism, the Nicene Creed and Constantinople follow-up, and Eternal Subordination of the Son as crucial in bringing to the surface the actual beliefs and values of hyper-complementarian theologians. Their own scholarly peers in academia are holding them accountable to both the beliefs and behaviors of their gender system. The contrasts have been getting more stark about what the leaders in the Council of CBMW, and how some of their views on the Trinity stand outside the borders of historic orthodoxy that have been in place for almost 1,650 years.

    WOW.
    without doubt, that area of the country seems to attract the extremists, racists and religion. Doug Wilson also comes from Moscow IDAHO, as I recall. He is feeding off of the same poisoned well in that area, as he has also tried to rewrite the history of slavery through his own lens.

    I definitely see the neo-Cal duality of refusal to acknowledge the full personhood of women as having a God-given conscience and being able to make their own decisions based on that conscience. With ESS, the pattern is completed with women cast as ‘daughters of a lesser God’ (a ‘submissive’ Christ).

    One other thought: a ‘species’ technically means any group that can reproduce . . . so that all members of the human race, regardless of skin coloring, are capable of inter-marriage and reproduction;
    and must be considered members of the SAME species.

    The poisoned well of discrimination contributes to the same basic evils in misogyny, racism, gender issues, religion, and ethnic background;
    so it is not surprising that some of the same ‘language’ (cult dog whistle terms) show up in these different types of discrimination. The roots of these evils go very deep into the ancient common enemy that feeds all that exists to divide our human kind into ‘us’ and ‘them’.


  73. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    This subject of male authority is so important to these people that they created an organization for the sole purpose of promoting it. Not for promoting Jesus Christ and what he has done for us – not to proclaim the good news and set captives free – but to promote a certain formula they believe the sexes must follow.

    Their meetings were secret and their motives and goals were not made clear. They are using many means to push this teaching onto individuals and into churches. Yet there is a lot of obfuscation going on as to what exactly they mean by these so-called ‘biblical gender roles.’

    For instance, in Mary Kassian’s latest post, http://girlsgonewise.com/does-a-husband-have-the-authority/ there is no clear idea of exactly what is meant by a husband’s authority. She says that his authority is really more of an obligation. What is this actually supposed to mean? Has the meaning of the word ‘authority’ changed? Or is it circular reasoning- he has ‘an obligation’ to rule over his wife? She says it is the wife’s choice as to whether she will ‘submit.’ But they teach that the wife would be in sin against God if she doesn’t submit. What kind of a choice is that? It is no choice at all.

    Kassian says the husband may not resort to physical abuse to force his wife to submit. But at the same time, he supposedly has ‘an obligation’ – an obligation to do what, exactly? The lines are always fuzzy.

    Kassian says, “a husband’s position as head of the home does not give him the right to rule, but rather the responsibility to provide loving oversight. A husband is not imparted with privilege; he is entrusted with obligation—the obligation to love, cherish and shepherd, in emulation of Christ.”

    I feel that this is just wrangling over words. Absolute, iron-fisted authority to one person is ‘shepherding’ to another. Those who interpret these teachings in a reasonable light will end up, in practice, living out their marriage as equals under Christ, only with a layer of weird uncertainty over them as to whether they’re doing it “biblically” enough.

    Apparently this teaching is so complex, it requires leaders who are constantly guiding and directing people on how to live it out.

    In practice, this teaching of male authority lends itself as a covering to abuse. It provides no benefits. It’s not required by scripture.

    Because wives in a certain situation were urged to respect their husbands and the husbands to love their wives doesn’t translate into a formula that encapsulates the definition of marriage to all people for all time. We know from the whole of scripture that we are ALL to love one another and we are ALL to respect one another. We are ALL to seek to live in emulation of Christ. I must surmise that there was a reason to emphasize those particular aspects to those particular persons at that particular time.

    The Christian life cannot be reduced to a formula.

    Why do these people feel such a drive to introduce and enforce this system of hierarchy on all believers? What is in it for them? What is their end goal? What is it to them how other believers work out their marriage and family relationships? Why is their focus on human relationships and hierarchy instead of on the person of Jesus Christ?


  74. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Thank you for the reminder, because this isn’t ‘unity’. This is the appearance of unity.

    In the mind of the comp, though, you can only have unity if someone is the head – final decision maker. Their world is black and white. This is not biblical at all when we take into account the “one anothers.” There is no give and take, preferring, considering, etc. in “headship.” There is only the final say . . .


  75. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    siteseer wrote:

    Apparently this teaching is so complex, it requires leaders who are constantly guiding and directing people on how to live it out.

    It is almost like that is the point! And said leaders are more than willing to provide “resources” and “learning opportunities” for a price. And, naturally, you will require frequent refreshers and CE. For a price. Doubt and uncertainty can be erased!


  76. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    In the mind of the comp, though, you can only have unity if someone is the head – final decision maker.

    I think a lot of confusion would be cleared up if the “head” is taken as descriptive rather than prescriptive. Christ is descriptively the head of the Church. The husband is descriptively the head of his wife and entire household in the first century. The head supplies the needs of the body and represents the body, and that is what a man did universally until very recently. That, IMO, is why there is so much awkwardness when it comes to talking about real life application. They are making a description of first century reality into a universal prescription.


  77. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    A friend who is a Bible study leader and prayer warrior has to ask her husband for permission to use the car and leave the house.

    My sister had a friend whose relationship with her husband started like this. This was a woman who sincerely wanted to honor and follow Christ. They were good friends and could really talk about things together. Over time, the husband took more and more control, putting more and more limits on the wife’s life. One day she called my sister and said she was sorry but she couldn’t be friends with her anymore- her husband had ‘discerned’ a ‘spirit’ over my sister’s home or some such thing, and he would no longer ‘allow’ the friendship. They moved away not long after that and we always wondered how life went for her.


  78. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    One other thought: a ‘species’ technically means any group that can reproduce . . . so that all members of the human race, regardless of skin coloring, are capable of inter-marriage and reproduction; and must be considered members of the SAME species.

    Good point. With what I saw in the Aryan Nations literature (along with some studies of late 1800s and early 1900s eugenics and Aryan supremacist academic theory prevalent at in the pre-Nazi era) is that the races were clearly divided between superior and inferior, and had “evolved” (the Aryan Nations’ own term, IIRC) from different sources. And I think I remember reading in that booklet that they believed Jews and blacks were from non-human sources. Hence, miscegenation (mixed-race relationships/marriage) and biracial children are possible, but the results “mongrelize” the superior race — “devolve” it.

    Really sick, sick stuff. Not that different from Lord Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy et al in the wizarding world of Harry Potter, and their rabid belief in the superiority of “pure blood” wizards.


  79. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    If a CEO of a business lost 200,000 customers a year, the Board would fire the CEO and get a better one.

    The SBC cash cow is drying up!


  80. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    They are making a description of first century reality into a universal prescription.

    I completely agree. But why are they doing this? Why do they not do it in other instances? What is it so important, to them, that a man has authority or is the head? I believe they have some self examination to do – which I don’t see them doing. Christ was not fixated on being the head – but a servant, as we all should do.


  81. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    siteseer wrote:

    For instance, in Mary Kassian’s latest post, http://girlsgonewise.com/does-a-husband-have-the-authority/ there is no clear idea of exactly what is meant by a husband’s authority

    The Deebs have been wisely pointing out for some time that the Comps are very weak on definitions. They seem to be frequently explaining that “what you think you heard I said…”. The problem is that they know they would get totally discredited if they stated clearly what they really think, and it is not “you’ve come a long way, baby”.


  82. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    He’s a professor at Boyce College, under the watchful eye of Al Mohler’s Southern Baptist Theological Seminary at Ground Zero. Nuff said?

    Yes, but does anybody know the backstory? Did BLHL Owen want out because CBMW is a loser organization? Is Denny Burk sort of obligated to step in?


  83. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    If a CEO of a business lost 200,000 customers a year, the Board would fire the CEO and get a better one.

    The only thing close to an SBC CEO is Frank Page, President and CEO of the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention. Once an outspoken anti-Calvinist, Page even wrote a book “Trouble With The Tulip” about the ails of Calvinism. In more recent years, he appears to have compromised his position on this in view of the explosion of New Calvinism in SBC ranks. He chaired a Calvinism committee a few years ago to explore complaints about the reformed movement and basically reported back to SBC membership that it wasn’t any big deal to be concerned about and called for unity across the membership to agree to disagree with the Calvinist brethren. SBC’s national leadership appear to have surrendered to Mohler’s campaign to reform the denomination. Mohler is effectively the CEO of SBC now.


  84. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Er…that should be “BHLH,” not “BLHL”–mild dyslexia, apparently.


  85. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Clearly you are one of those rebellious Bereans

    I resemble that remark 🙂

    The thing about the Bereans is that Paul said they were more noble than the rest. We don’t have any record of the Bereans running around and saying that about themselves. On the other hand, the New Calvinists love to be seen and heard – I think Paul said that about the Pharisees.


  86. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    GC wrote:

    It is hard to see Jesus in any of the things they emphasize and promote.

    Heck, they don’t even talk much about Jesus. Paul and Calvin get far more air time than Christ. That alone ought to be enough of a red flag to steer clear of New Calvinism!


  87. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    My impression is that the Comp deal is a wild goose chase camouflaging what GC articulates as control, power, and money.

    The reformed youngsters particularly like the New Calvinist icons talking about comp all the time … they see it as a way to manipulate their young wives into submission in every compartment of their poor lives. The YRR are just a bunch of flesh babies.


  88. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    GC wrote:

    It is hard to see Jesus in any of the things they emphasize and promote.

    Heck, they don’t even talk much about Jesus. Paul and Calvin get far more air time than Christ. That alone ought to be enough of a red flag to steer clear of New Calvinism!

    “Hey Joe, are you a Neo-Cal?”

    “No, I’m a Christian”.


  89. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sam wrote:

    I think Victorious nailed it. Come to think of it, Grudem, Piper and the rest of them really don’t talk about these passages. I wonder why….

    When you bring such verses or passages to the attention of some complementarians, like one guy who used to post here regularly, he claims some of those verses are not meant for husbands, but only for wives (even though the text and context of the verses say no such thing).

    And as you probably already know, most complementarians claim to take the Bible seriously and at face value – sure they do, until and unless it proves inconvenient to their position.


  90. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Also, she quotes this person: As Robert Wall describes, the head is to continuously “think about the mission, describe it, communicate it, keep it constantly before the group, and develop goals on the basis of it”

    That sounds very tiresome to live with!


  91. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Daisy:

    I like your assessment of the complementarian nonsense.
    The complementarian way is so confusing, not because we don’t understand it, but because it makes no practical sense.
    The egalitarian way is so easy and makes sense.
    And which one fits better into Jesus’ principle of His burden being light and easy to bear, unlike what the pharisees taught about God.


  92. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Daisy:

    Just for my own ponderings, what are some of the secular feminists ways that you don’t agree with? I know most are pro-choice and I don’t agree with them. But there are pro-life secular feminists too.


  93. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    Just for my own ponderings, what are some of the secular feminists ways that you don’t agree with? I know most are pro-choice and I don’t agree with them. But there are pro-life secular feminists too.

    Yes, there are pro-life secular feminists. I know them.


  94. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    We don’t have any record of the Bereans running around and saying that about themselves.

    Great point! I hadn’t thought of that when I have argued that the reason we do not see as many non-hierarchical Christians in the lime-light as in very many books, etc. is because they are not looking for status at all.


  95. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    At one point, Byrd writes:

    The point of headship is unity.

    Unity. I think it comes from what this passage in Philippians describes:

    Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself…

    This is not instruction to ‘husbands’ or ‘men’ but to all of us.

    Fellowship… love… affection… compassion… being of the same mind… love… united in spirit… one purpose… humility… putting one another first… with Christ as the example for our attitude.

    How does putting one believer in authority over another accomplish the unity this passage speaks of? It is a different paradigm.

    In the example she gives of the couple trying to decide whether to move, she describes more the process Philippians outlines. Yet, if they come to an impasse, then the husband is to make the decision. One question I have is, if they sincerely practice Philippians, will they come to an impasse? What about taking some time to pray about it, seek more information & counsel, and continue to discuss it?

    But if the husband can step in and make the decision unilaterally in the end, does that negate the former part of the process? I.e., was it just for show?

    Great points on the rest of your post, Daisy.


  96. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    siteseer wrote:

    This subject of male authority is so important to these people that they created an organization for the sole purpose of promoting it.

    Several organizations: CBMW, T4G, TGC ….. I’ve probably missed a couple. They are stretching across religious denominations and working like an anti-woman KKK.


  97. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    siteseer wrote:

    Also, she quotes this person: As Robert Wall describes, the head is to continuously “think about the mission, describe it, communicate it, keep it constantly before the group, and develop goals on the basis of it”

    Robert Wall makes marriage sound like an army of 2: the husband is the commanding captain, and the wife is the Private 1st Class. That’s such an attractive, intriguing comparison!


  98. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    An indirect mention of CBMW and/or Kassian in this recent page:

    Silent No More: Exposing Abuse Among Evangelicals
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/silent-no-more-exposing-abuse-among-evangelicals

    Snippet:

    Given the terrifying experiences Ruth endured, it is unthinkable that anyone might attempt to persuade her to stand with individuals whose theology fueled her abuse. It would be like asking Sojourner Truth to stand with pro-slavery advocates against the abuses of slavery! It was the grueling, dangerous, life-long work of abolitionists like Truth who exposed the abuse, deceit, greed, and twisted rhetoric inherent to slavery.

    Like slavery, male-headship is deeply flawed theologically and therefore ethically. It is a system of privilege that elevates one group over another…


  99. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    The thing about the Bereans is that Paul said they were more noble than the rest. We don’t have any record of the Bereans running around and saying that about themselves. On the other hand, the New Calvinists love to be seen and heard – I think Paul said that about the Pharisees.

    Exactly!


  100. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:
    “The manly part of Jesus took initiative. The girly part submitted.”

    Great Comment!!


  101. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    But why are they doing this? Why do they not do it in other instances?

    The Usual Suspects I suspect are doing it for the usual reasons. I think (projecting my own thinking on them) for traditional and non-hierarchical complementarians (especially confessional ones), it is a case of seeing things the way they have always been seen and also working from life experience where the comp paradigm works (mainly because the relationship is functionally mutualist) and there is simply no perceived reason to think about it further than a plain reading of the clobber verses.

    On a plain reading without considering cultural context and sometimes textual context, it is easy, IMO, to confuse descriptive and prescriptive. But it is unlikely that someone will be consistent with that kind of hermeneutic, as many have pointed out before WRT greeting one another with a kiss, etc. However, if one’s bias is to see the Bible as a handbook of precepts and propositions, then it is easy to see definite prescription rather than possible description. I think it is because some steps between exegesis, interpretation and application are skipped.

    When you combine that with the historical fact that at least some *denominations* have affirmed female ordination while not affirming inerrancy, it is reasonable from the POV of a conservative evangelical to reject female ordination because it has been associated so strongly with abandonment of the authority of the Bible as understood by conservative denominations like NAPARC or SBC.

    While I am not ascribing my experience and thinking to other conservatives on this topic, I have a lot of empathy for women like Aimee Byrd. For a woman in a conservative tradition to say what she has said is a very big deal, and she will pay a price for it. As I’ve said before, I was not open at all to considering the possibility until I was forced to consider that possibility, and that is why the Bent Tree Bible elder’s statement resonated so strongly with me when he said he never looked at the issue in depth before he needed to look at it in depth (my paraphrase of his statement.)

    Apologies if this does not make sense. 🙂


  102. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    I resemble that remark

    I am ***thrilled*** that you are among the glorious and beautiful Bereans who sinned by questioning Paul. 🙂


  103. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    https://baptistnews.com/article/council-on-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood-announces-leadership-change/
    Here we go. Russell Moore is in it neck deep. OBHLHS, on leaving has been quoted saying that with Hilary Clinton poised to be the Democratic nominee, we are questioning as whether it is God’s will for a woman to lead the nation.


  104. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    the reason we do not see as many non-hierarchical Christians in the lime-light as in very many books, etc. is because they are not looking for status at all

    Amen. Humble folks don’t like to toot their horns! The Bereans among us see right through New Calvinist aberrations. Another thing about the Berean Christians, they searched the word daily to see if what Paul was saying was true! If they were measuring Paul’s words, discerning Christians sure need to listen to what these new reformers are touting as truth (ESS, etc.) and speak up. We also need the same spirit today that the “Men of Issachar” had – they understood the times they were in and knew what the church should do (1 Chronicles 12).


  105. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ siteseer:

    One other thing I’d like to add about the “tie-breaker” philosophy of ‘headship.’ I would caution about using this in practice.

    Every decision that is made has the possibility of bad consequences. If one person made the decision and the other was forced to go along against their feelings, and the decision works out badly, it can instigate resentment.

    Using the example Byrd gave of moving, let’s say the husband and wife can’t come to agreement on whether to move, so the husband casts his tie-breaking vote and says, “we’re moving.” Then let’s say the move works out badly. Maybe something bad happens to them at the new place, maybe the new job or neighborhood or school turns out to be a disaster. Maybe the kids fall in with a bad crowd and trouble ensues. Maybe the wife had misgivings about some of these things in the beginning. These can end up being really difficult issues to deal with if she felt forced into it. If both decided together, acknowledging the risks but deciding to go for it, and it doesn’t work out well, well then they at least have each other’s support in deciding how to deal with it from there. Resentment can be a real bear to deal with in a marriage.


  106. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:Well, at least Peacock’s claim that “Adam’s passive indifference caused the fall” takes the blame off Eve’s shoulders. So I guess that God’s original “good” creation of Adam isn’t good enough for Peacock. And Adam was already sinning before the fall? Not manly enough? Hmm–maybe that’s why they didn’t have any kids yet. I don’t know–I’m just trying to figuring this out, follow his line of reasoning. Something’s just not making sense here.


  107. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    Did BLHL Owen want out because CBMW is a loser organization? Is Denny Burk sort of obligated to step in?

    I looooove to speculate, and if Bruce Ware can speculate about intra-Trinitarian relationships, then I can speculate about a backstory.

    It may be that Mohler’s statement was an early indication of where this is going. I think they are going to temporarily back away from the ESS angle at CMBW while at the same time not disavowing it. Owen, the Beautiful and Gloriously Thrilled One, is too closely associated with Bruce Ware who is, after all, his father-in-law. Denny Burk is not publicly as visible (and therefore vulnerable) on this issue though, IIRC, he supports ESS. In other words, it was time for at least a soft reboot.

    I think that Denny Burk received an offer he could not refuse. And I think that CBMW will become increasingly irrelevant, particularly now that conservative scholars are taking a look at the underpinnings of this ideology.


  108. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    he YRR are just a bunch of flesh babies.

    They are definitely not seasoned and are not ready for prime time IMO!


  109. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    He chaired a Calvinism committee a few years ago to explore complaints about the reformed movement and basically reported back to SBC membership that it wasn’t any big deal to be concerned about and called for unity across the membership to agree to disagree with the Calvinist brethren. SBC’s national leadership appear to have surrendered to Mohler’s campaign to reform the denomination. Mohler is effectively the CEO of SBC now.

    I think Page was afraid of all the other boys in the SBC!


  110. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Great comments, and I love the “one another” passages. I think that speaks volumes. It is really what the gospel is about, and the calvininstas and comps are missing it (or in the worst cases just ignoring it).

    One enduring truth is that the three great temptations are money, sex, and power. And I believe that power is the main one because it gives you a much better chance of having the other two as well. And boy, do the calvinistas and complementarians show a desire for power. That’s part of the reason they are so relentlessly vocal and assertive: those are two classic behaviors of someone seeking power. It’s why people like Kassian can dress in leather and heavy makeup and lots of jewelry but still spout the comp. ideology. The ideology is just a means: power and control is the goal. The quest for it often overrides any cognitive dissonance.

    And people who think they have a chance at power really don’t want to let it go. Watch for behaviors that show that also (thinking of the ESS debate here).

    Jesus was offered power once, in the wilderness, when he was probably at his weakest. He had a rather different response.

    I’ll admit to being one of the “dones” when it comes to church, at least for now. So discount this if you want, but as an outside observer now these things seem pretty obvious to me. I don’t see any of it ending well.


  111. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    So I am a widow, bless his heart, my 1st husband went home to heaven.

    Earlier this spring, a Christian engineer friend of mine (thus an educated Christian professional that I’ve known for some time), proposed to me, or rather told me we were to be married with, “God has spoken and told me that you are to be my wife.”

    Really. I said I would pray about it and see what God tells me.

    Later in the same conversation this friend told me that when a couple has a difference in decision-making, and it takes too long to come together, then the decision defaults to the guy’s point of view, so that action can be taken without delay (caused by the woman’s indecisiveness).

    Needless to say, I am no longer seeing this guy even as a friend. A couple of emails he sent me after that night are equally creepy. Not gauche or obscene; he is definitely devoutly religious, and himself a widower.

    I could never step into the confines of such a relationship. That, I believe, would be out of step with what God wants in my life.

    My guess is that this devout engineer has some scripture and community to back up his point of view. I didn’t go there. No sense in arguing, trying to wrap one’s head around it and getting bent out of shape.

    However, I’d have to say that reading TWW and Jesus Creed, and now Tim Fall, posts and comments, are keeping me sane in a very confused church in 2016 in the USA.


  112. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Apparently, people who professed Christ from non-Christian families like me, or those who weren’t “famous” in the little evangelical world, did not qualify as “good Christians”.

    You’re not a Khristian Kardashian, so you don’t count.


  113. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    New Calvinist leaders will live to regret playing the “comp card” so early in the game. They should have waited to release this aberration more gradually into the reformed movement. They may have some intellectuals at the helm, but they are not very smart.

    “You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown mysteries


  114. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    The new reformers are no different – they truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel to the church that the rest of us have lost!

    And this time We WILL Achieve True Communism!


  115. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hi TWWers,

    Quick announcement.

    1. Shauna (goes by screen name “Maquis”) and her teenage son have immediate tangible needs with monthly expenses and food needs. https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

    Dee set up the GoFundMe account after the TX church they went blamed them for the son’s being sexually abused by another church member. The pastor and church members cost the mom, who is single, house cleaning jobs. There situation is still difficult.

    The mom’s most recent post on the Open Discussion thread.

    “Thank you for all of your prayers and support for billy. I am not sure if this is appropriate to ask for help still. I don’t even know how you repost my gofundme that dee set up. I’m embarrassed to even mention that we are struggling. My car broke down a few weeks ago and I’m still repaying those who helped me pay for repairs. It set me back in paying for my utilities, phone, food, gas, insurance, and ect….. Billy and I are cutting it so close that I’m rationing our food currently. I have had reschedules and cancellations with housecleanings so that takes away immediate income. I don’t know what else to do as those who have prayed and helped already provided such relief. I hate having to tell billy no on wanting to eat up everything. He’s not starving but he’s a growing teenage boy who has hollow legs and wants to eat non stop. I have to monitor just in this area because food has to stretch until I get paid. That only happens with housecleaning for which im still working off for what was advanced for the repairs on our car. Ok , I am hoping by sharing that we are in need that you will be able to pray specifically and possibly help. If no one can help I understand and I’m just grateful for what has been done already for me and billy.”

    2. Also Jeannette Altes thanks everyone for helping her with her expenses as she has faced a job loss, tumor treatment, and is looking for work. Her GoFundMe account is on the Open Discussion thread.

    Thank you!


  116. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    siteseer wrote:

    One day she called my sister and said she was sorry but she couldn’t be friends with her anymore- her husband had ‘discerned’ a ‘spirit’ over my sister’s home or some such thing, and he would no longer ‘allow’ the friendship.

    Spectral Evidence for Witchcraft, just like old Salem.


  117. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    So I am a widow, bless his heart, my 1st husband went home to heaven.

    I’m sorry – been there. I know what it’s like. I was widowed at the ripe old age of 27.
    My first husband was very gentle and passive …. really a momma’s boy. The fights we had were over his mother trying to run our lives!

    You be careful. There are a lot of users and abusers out there. I know, I dated a couple of them!


  118. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    Earlier this spring, a Christian engineer friend of mine (thus an educated Christian professional that I’ve known for some time), proposed to me, or rather told me we were to be married with, “God has spoken and told me that you are to be my wife.”

    Mark Lowry had a funny story about that. He said that he had five women write him that God told them to marry Mark. He said, “Either God is a polygamist or somebody’s not heard from God right!”

    I had three of those “God told me” guys approach me at Liberty. I had just broken up from a very long engagement, so I didn’t want to have anything to do with guys.

    I tend to be of the camp that most people hear from God wrong on things they really want.


  119. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    They are definitely not seasoned and are not ready for prime time IMO!

    Unfortunately, they are in prime time right now. By the time they are done working their mischief, the SBC will have to be re-primed if it’s still around.


  120. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:
    Thanks for sharing.
    I’ve hesitated to share this story throughout spring and summer, even though it applies on a number of different levels to the TWW posts. I thought everyone would think I’m from Mars or something.

    So, thanks again for sharing.


  121. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Meanwhile, complementarian theologians get all fussy and flustered about how no verses specifically command men or women to be, do, and say what their theology states must be done or else it is “sin.” They’ve built it all on inferences supposedly found between the lines of Scripture. If they would just fulfill the one anothers in that very lengthy list, surely all their gender issues would dissolve, don’t you think?

    All of what you say is very true, and I agree.

    To me, what you said is tied in with how complementarians are so focused on the bark of individual trees that they don’t see the forest.

    They really narrowly focus on a small number of verses (about women being quiet or submissive and so on) while overlooking the overall pictures and themes in the Bible of how Jesus came to shake up things as we know it.

    (Then, of course, there are examples in the Bible of women doing things with God’s blessing or calling that complementarians say women should not be doing.)

    Anyway, complementarianism seems like one big exercise of missing the ‘Big Picture’ to focus on little details. Focusing on those small details gives a distorted view of things.


  122. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Thanks for sharing.
    I’ve hesitated to share this story throughout spring and summer, even though it applies on a number of different levels to the TWW posts. I thought everyone would think I’m from Mars or something.
    So, thanks again for sharing.

    I’ve been writing on my blog about singles groups, and I’ve seen stupendous levels of desperation among singles in my tenure as a single Christian. I’ve had guys try to trick me into dating them, guys who stalked me for long periods of time, and seen people do really crazy things to get the attention of someone. At least with the “God told me” guys, I knew right away that I didn’t want to have anything to do with them.


  123. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    Later in the same conversation this friend told me that when a couple has a difference in decision-making, and it takes too long to come together, then the decision defaults to the guy’s point of view, so that action can be taken without delay (caused by the woman’s indecisiveness).

    How big an evil is ‘delay’ really? I don’t recall the biblical directives to make decisions immediately.

    I think you were right to back away slowly from this sort of thinking, but what a shame it is that men seem to be being brainwashed as well to think these things. It’s not good for any of us, and he probably lost a great friend over it.


  124. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    I tend to be of the camp that most people hear from God wrong on things they really want.

    Ha. Probably.

    I tend to think these ‘god told me you should do X’ guys are just being manipulative, but maybe they are sincere. There was a Babylon bee a while back about two guys thinking this about one girl (sidenote: do NOT google two guys and one girl). I couldn’t find that one at first glance but I did find “Everything Local Man Feels Led To Do He Coincidentally Really Likes”. Hee. I dropped the page because the politics were annoying me – I get enough of that on facebook thanks- but those were funny.


  125. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    caused by the woman’s indecisiveness

    Or rebellion, right? Sheesh.


  126. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Tim wrote:

    How big an evil is ‘delay’ really? I don’t recall the biblical directives to make decisions immediately.

    I didn’t even catch that, but if they disagree, she’s not exactly being indecisive, is she?


  127. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:

    Oops, sorry that was my quote not yours. I mean to quote the ‘woman’s indecisiveness’ comment.


  128. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    I thought everyone would think I’m from Mars or something.

    Well, I’ve must have been to Mars, too, because I’ve heard of similar incidents. Glad you told your story because you never know who might be lurking who thinks they are the one from Mars with a story no one would believe.


  129. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    How big an evil is ‘delay’ really? I don’t recall the biblical directives to make decisions immediately.

    When a woman delays a decision she is being indecisive. When a man delays a decision he is waiting on God’s direction.


  130. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    When the engineer friend said “When a woman is indecisive…” – this is probably mis-wording on his part to label her as such, when she doesn’t agree with her husband. However, that is exactly how he stated it when the two do not come to the same conclusion. That the wife simply can’t make up her mind (that is, see it my – the husband’s – way).

    And to illustrate this, when I did not accept his proposal, his answer was, “Well, then I’ll just have to wait until you come around, and see it my way, what God has told me.” In other words, I’m right and you’re wrong, and you need to see this my way.

    However, in marriage, he indicated he would not wait. It felt like he would bully his way as his God-given mandate. That was the creepy part. I felt at that point like I was dealing with a bully.

    Right now in middle schools across the USA, there are many initiatives to teach children not to bully.

    Most troublesome is that he is a devout believer, church attender, Bible study regular, very stalwart in some sense of the word. In this instance, though, felt like a bully.


  131. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Off topic prayer request: Could folks please pray for a woman named Penny. She posted a searing story over on Liberty for Captives about being 67 years old, failing eyesight, and being horribly treated at her church when she discovered that her husband was a pedophile. She has been shunned by the Body of Christ, by family who don’t want to deal with it, and have taken sides.

    I referred her over to this blog, Julie Anne’s Spiritual Sounding Board, Jeff Crippen & Barbara Roberts’ blog a Cry for Justice, and a few others.


  132. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    when I did not accept his proposal, his answer was, “Well, then I’ll just have to wait until you come around, and see it my way, what God has told me.” In other words, I’m right and you’re wrong, and you need to see this my way.
    However, in marriage, he indicated he would not wait. It felt like he would bully his way as his God-given mandate. That was the creepy part. I felt at that point like I was dealing with a bully.

    This has happened over and over to me, so I think many Christian men must just feel entitled to the woman of their choice. Though I have seen women do the same thing, just not quite to the extent. Desperation does very strange things to decent people.

    But I think it’s a good thing that you found out where he would have placed your opinion. I’ve had friends whose husbands were on their best behavior until after they were married, and then suddenly their husbands turned into that.


  133. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    many Christian men must just feel entitled

    Comp deal?


  134. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    many Christian men must just feel entitled
    Comp deal?

    Nope. Many of them were free will. It just didn’t extend to their view of women.


  135. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:

    Gram3 wrote: “Is CBMW tacitly backing away from ESS?”
    Nancy2 wrote: “I don’t think so. This Peacock article is from 2015…”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    so, if not backing away from ESS, then tying themselves up in knots championing thing A and then championing thing B which contradicts thing A.

    (ESS – Jesus obeyed the Father rather than taking initiative)
    (Peacock – Jesus, “who took initiative for God’s glory…”)

    it’s amazing, and not without comedy, how they step all over each other with their assertions. that can’t get their story straight.

    (fyi- the quote about ‘who took initiative’ and the article Nancy2 referenced further down are one & the same)


  136. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    But look how “famous” these complementarian theologians become!! You do not become famous by advocating that long list of “one-anothers”… that is “old” and boring!!

    Daisy wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:
    Meanwhile, complementarian theologians get all fussy and flustered about how no verses specifically command men or women to be, do, and say what their theology states must be done or else it is “sin.” They’ve built it all on inferences supposedly found between the lines of Scripture. If they would just fulfill the one anothers in that very lengthy list, surely all their gender issues would dissolve, don’t you think?
    All of what you say is very true, and I agree.
    To me, what you said is tied in with how complementarians are so focused on the bark of individual trees that they don’t see the forest.
    They really narrowly focus on a small number of verses (about women being quiet or submissive and so on) while overlooking the overall pictures and themes in the Bible of how Jesus came to shake up things as we know it.
    (Then, of course, there are examples in the Bible of women doing things with God’s blessing or calling that complementarians say women should not be doing.)
    Anyway, complementarianism seems like one big exercise of missing the ‘Big Picture’ to focus on little details. Focusing on those small details gives a distorted view of things.


  137. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    it’s amazing, and not without comedy, how they step all over each other with their assertions. that can’t get their story straight.

    That is the trouble with an on-the-fly and ad hoc “solution” to a problem. The ad hockiness is going to come out sooner or later. And they have done themselves no favor by insulating their ideas from any questioning which might have sharpened their thinking and formulations. That is the way that robust arguments and theories are formed. I just had to work in “robust” because Gramp3 informs me that “robust” is the new “winsome” at CBMW.


  138. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    can’t get their story straight.

    It might be entertaining to put them in separate interrogation rooms and ask them the same questions at the same time. 🙂


  139. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:

    “That is the trouble with an on-the-fly and ad hoc “solution” to a problem. The ad hockiness is going to come out sooner or later.”
    +++++++++++++++

    so, they holed up in a hotel conference room in Danvers, Mass, to come up with a brand new doctrine(!). since then they have campaigned their doctrine as the only normal and viable way, as well as the arbiter of legitimate christian versus not a real christian.

    and the best they can do to explain this utterly crucial doctrine is ad hoc?


  140. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ elastigirl:

    i realize the monster ‘Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood’ is the textbook for their utterly crucial doctrine of complementarianism.

    but after its readers sober up, they’re left with question marks in the lines of their facial expression.

    and the next layer of explanation seems to be these ad hoc ideas. full of contradictions.


  141. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Tim wrote:

    How big an evil is ‘delay’ really? I don’t recall the biblical directives to make decisions immediately.

    I didn’t even catch that, but if they disagree, she’s not exactly being indecisive, is she?

    ‘Patience’ is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Maybe the clown who needs an ‘answer’ or a ‘decision’ quickly ought to consider that the ‘voices’ in his head might not have anything to do with God.


  142. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    i think they’ve all tricked themselves into believing in square circles with all their hearts.

    these days, when do i NOT sport an ironic look? just amazed at the spectacle they make of themselves.


  143. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I have never been stalked, but I can only imagine the horror of having it happen. Unstable people have been interviewed on Dr. Phil who have stalked others and they send out a creep factor that is at the top of the charts.

    I think woman today must take the responsibility of being a lot more careful for a lot longer time before beginning to ‘trust’ someone enough to give out a phone number, an email address, or God forbid, a personal address.

    too many crazies out there


  144. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    I think woman today must take the responsibility of being a lot more careful for a lot longer time before beginning to ‘trust’ someone enough to give out a phone number, an email address, or God forbid, a personal address.

    You can get someone’s address online. Privacy is mostly dead.


  145. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    You can get someone’s address online. Privacy is mostly dead.

    nightmare!


  146. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    I think woman today must take the responsibility of being a lot more careful for a lot longer time before beginning to ‘trust’ someone enough to give out a phone number, an email address, or God forbid, a personal address.
    /
    You can get someone’s address online. Privacy is mostly dead.

    Not only that, but Christians seem to have no caution when they believe you are lacking because you are not married. I’ve had people give away my information to scary guys whom I’ve already refused.


  147. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    and the best they can do to explain this utterly crucial doctrine is ad hoc?

    I think it is safe to say at this point they would have articulated a coherent argument from the actual texts if they could do that. I believe they cannot do that. If you read Danvers, it is one big appeal to fear wrapping around various logical fallacies and prooftexts which do not actually say what Danverites say that the texts say. But if one glosses over it and does not test the presuppositions or arguments or texts, then it can seem plausible to someone who has taken the fear bait.

    They are relying on people’s fear of abandoning God’s authority and the authority of the Bible. And also human desire for neat answers to tough problems. And guarantees. And on our craving for the affirmation of our tribe. In my experience in conservative churches, very few people have even read Danvers or know about it. They have not even read the real Female Subordination bible, RBMW.


  148. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    This man is exerting excessive control over his wife, who is by all accounts a Godly woman. I bet she has to rinse off the soap bubbles to his satisfaction, too.

    I bet she doesn’t even realize how controlling her husband is, and she spends way too much time trying to figure out how to submit better.

    This brings to mind a book I read by a therapist who saw a married woman who came in saying she was depressed.

    The therapist asked the woman to describe her marriage, and she painted this picture of a nit-picky, demanding husband.

    The husband insisted on having his clean underwear folded by his wife just-so, and berated her if she didn’t dust the furniture and perform other household chores to his satisfaction.

    The wife said she tried so hard to live up to her spouse’s expectations, and she felt like a failure.

    I like the therapist’s response to all this.

    She said she asked the wife if she had considered that the problem was not with her, the wife, but with her husband?
    Had the wife maybe considered that maybe the husband was a demanding jerk?

    If this poor lady had walked into your average complementarian church, though, the preacher would’ve likely blamed her altogether, and told her to submit more and try harder.


  149. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    Off topic prayer request: Could folks please pray for a woman named Penny. She posted a searing story over on Liberty for Captives about being 67 years old, failing eyesight, and being horribly treated at her church when she discovered that her husband was a pedophile. She has been shunned by the Body of Christ, by family who don’t want to deal with it, and have taken sides.

    I referred her over to this blog, Julie Anne’s Spiritual Sounding Board, Jeff Crippen & Barbara Roberts’ blog a Cry for Justice, and a few others.

    Velour, that was a very kind note you wrote to Penny and I do hope she comes here so that we can offer her support.


  150. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    I do hope she comes here so that we can offer her support.

    I have wondered, on this site and others, if there was a way to do some sort of informal support by region – I know I wouldn’t mind helping someone who lived nearby – but I think that might become rather touchy if people were concerned about privacy or stalking or what have you…


  151. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    In their framework, we are not, first and foremost, instances of a human type (though I would argue we are individual persons and not merely instances)

    This sounds like OOP (object oriented programming). I read several books on that topic (it’s been awhile, though).

    The way some of the programming books explained classes and other jargon was to say something like, if you designed a poodle dog, you might first start by creating a very general class and call it “animals.”

    Then, you would, under that class, create a sub-category of creatures with four legs, then under that, ones with fur – and so on and so forth, until you get down to the category of “dog,” then specific breeds.

    I do think “human” is a top-most category, one that filters down to other specifics (such as gender). Complementarians want to put gender at the top of the pyramid.

    (I’m also shocked I actually remember anything about OOP. It was a dry topic for me to read about.) 🙂


  152. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:

    From that page:
    http://cbmw.org/public-square/cbmw-announcement-denny-burk-named-cbmw-president/

    “Christians are facing unprecedented challenges to the Bible’s teaching on gender and sexuality, and CBMW has its work cut out for it,” Burk said.

    More accurate: complementarians are upset because they believe secular culture (and maybe some parts of Christian culture) disagree with their interpretation of the Bible in regards to gender.


  153. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Because that’s what the cross was about. Redeeming ‘masculinity’.
    Do they even hear themselves?

    Don’t forget, per CBMW (or whomever Tweeted it), it wasn’t even really Jesus that saved humanity but rather “sanctified testosterone”


  154. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    It’s going to come to a point where they will be many more man in Calvinista churches than women. Women can have an upper hand by refusing to marry these imbeciles. There won’t be any maids, chefs, and sex.

    I’ve said this before on other threads, but for all their complaining about delayed marriage or no marriage, they are not doing themselves any favors with complementarianism. I have no desire to marry a complementarian Christian, and based on comments I’ve seen of single Christian women on other sites, neither do they.

    They laugh about the dating site profiles of complementarian Christian men on dating sites they’ve seen that talk about how they want to be the head to a godly, submitting wife. They’re like, “Thanks, but no thanks.”

    Complementarian teachings on marriage make lifelong singleness far better looking by comparison – or marriage to a Non-Christian.


  155. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram,

    You ask whether CBMW may try to move away from Danvers. Given Denny Burk’s announcement of presidency yesterday, his statement included exactly 33824729 mentions of Danvers and submission to Danvers, and God was only mentioned once. No Jesus, Holy Spirit, etc. He even stated that “Danvers is our true north.” Get them fists raised minions! It’s buckle down and cognitive dissonance time for the great agenda that is clearly being defeated.

    Unless it has been recently discovered that Danvers is the long lost last name of Jesus Christ, see Jesus Christ Danvers, and that he means to say Jesus is the true North…but in their mind Jesus = Danvers ideology.

    Their words betray them and their loyalties and what they’re really about. I mean, he literally admitted clear as day that Danvers is salvific to them and in the role of Christmas (and maybe Mary Kassian is Holy Spirit? No, the Spirit has no function or even placeholder, that’s how much the Spirit is devalued.) Or…she is probably legitimately mother Mary, chosen at a young age to give birth to Danvers who now is here to save us.


  156. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    I guess a True Woman does not imitate Christ. Or something.

    Many Complementarians do spend an awful lot of time in their material instructing women on how and why to be a submissive doormat to a husband…

    But very little telling them how, or encouraging them to, be more like Christ.


  157. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    “Christians are facing unprecedented challenges to the Bible’s teaching on gender and sexuality, and CBMW has its work cut out for it,” Burk said.

    It is so sad to see them obsessing over this.
    I feel bad for them that they have chosen this ‘hill to die on’ when this hill wasn’t even brought up in the gospels. They have chosen the wrong hill.
    They are spending their lives on wind and shadows. They are sowing to the wind and are blind to the fact that they are now reaping the whirlwind.
    It would be comical if it weren’t so pathetic.


  158. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Some mistakes in my last post because of phone typing. Though Christmas I guess works just as well.

    Further on the death of Danvers…They see Danvers dying and being crucified around then and now they likely see themselves with the special calling and embedded authority as Fathers of the movement to resurrect it.


  159. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    There won’t be any maids, chefs, and sex.
    ———–
    True, very raw, very well said, and LOL.

    My mom used to listen to country music a lot, so I was expose to quite a bit of it, including this, which should be the Christian Gender Complementarian / CBMW theme song:

    Put Another Log On The Fire
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWpYQjuJ0u0

    Partial Lyrics, (sung by a husband to his wife):
    ———————
    Put another log on the fire.
    Cook me up some bacon and some beans.
    And go out to the car and change the tire.
    Wash my socks and sew my old blue jeans.
    Come on, baby, you can fill my pipe,
    And then go fetch my slippers.
    And boil me up another pot of tea.
    Then put another log on the fire, babe,
    And come and tell me why you’re leaving me.


  160. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    The manly part of Jesus took initiative. The girly part submitted.

    THis used to mix me up and confuse me so much when I was a teen and later. My mother was a big believer in traditional gender roles- girls / women were supposed to be sweet, passive, never show anger.

    But then she’d often tell me to imitate me and ask me “What would Jesus do” if I came to her with a question on how to handle some problem in life (my mom’s understanding is that Jesus would always turn the other cheek and be a passive, sweet doormat).

    Then I read the Bible, and there was Jesus, biting the heads off the Pharisees, exploding in rage at the religious hypocrites, and tossing over the tables of the money changers in the temple.

    My Mom was telling me to act like Jesus, but she would imply that he was wimpy passive, but the Jesus I read in the Bible was sometimes assertive and outspoken. I could not figure out which version of Jesus I was meant to follow as a teen and as far into my 30s.


  161. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:
    Correction:

    But then she’d often tell me to imitate me and ask me “What would Jesus do”

    She told me to imitate JESUS – not “me”


  162. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    they were created to be subordinate to men in every arena of life.

    When I was growing up, I would sometimes hear other people’s parents tell them if they wanted some boy at school to like them back or date them, to act stupid around the guy, or let the guy beat them at tennis or whatever game they played together.
    It seems that the parents who give that sort of advice generally believe in complementarian type views of the genders.

    I find it amusing how on the one hand, supporters of traditional gender roles tend to think of women as being more inept or dumber than males, but..

    On the other hand, part of them has to admit (when giving dating advice) that sometimes some girls and women are better or smarter at certain pursuits than some men and boys.
    So the women are told to dumb themselves down, because supposedly all men are turned off by, or scared of, competent, smart women.


  163. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    https://baptistnews.com/article/council-on-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood-announces-leadership-change/

    Russell Moore…said he is excited about Burk’s selection and looks forward to “working with CBMW to serve the church toward a biblical view of God’s good design for men and women, girls and boys.”

    Dear Lord, please keep these people far, far away from the little girls! They will learn nothing about gods design for them.


  164. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Many Complementarians do spend an awful lot of time in their material instructing women on how and why to be a submissive doormat to a husband…
    But very little telling them how, or encouraging them to, be more like Christ.

    A woman I know, when healing from being married to an alcoholic, told me, “I wasn’t just a doormat that said ‘Welcome’, I was wall-to-wall carpeting!”

    That’s the message of CBMW: be wall-to-wall carpeting and let people walk all over you.
    You have no value. Your daughters have no value.

    CBMW teaches ‘another Gospel’.


  165. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    That’s the message of CBMW: be wall-to-wall carpeting and let people walk all over you.
    You have no value. Your daughters have no value.

    CBMW teaches ‘another Gospel’.

    I despise what they teach, it is not biblical!


  166. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    And to illustrate this, when I did not accept his proposal, his answer was, “Well, then I’ll just have to wait until you come around, and see it my way, what God has told me.” In other words, I’m right and you’re wrong, and you need to see this my way.

    He doesn’t just sound like a bully, he sounds like a stalker.

    Gavin de Becker, a threat assessment professional to entertainers and government officials, said in his book The Gift of Fear that men who can’t take ‘no’ usually choose women who can’t say ‘no’.

    He said it’s very important to be explicit in the rejection: “I am not interested in you and I never will be.”


  167. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    That’s the message of CBMW: be wall-to-wall carpeting and let people walk all over you.
    You have no value. Your daughters have no value.
    CBMW teaches ‘another Gospel’.
    I despise what they teach, it is not biblical!

    Amen to that. I despise it as well. Their sins will find them out and they are being exposed.


  168. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Dear Lord, please keep these people far, far away from the little girls! They will learn nothing about gods design for them.

    Amen! This garbage comes from the pits of he–!


  169. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Off topic prayer request: Could folks please pray for a woman named Penny. She posted a searing story over on Liberty for Captives about being 67 years old, failing eyesight, and being horribly treated at her church when she discovered that her husband was a pedophile. She has been shunned by the Body of Christ, by family who don’t want to deal with it, and have taken sides.
    I referred her over to this blog, Julie Anne’s Spiritual Sounding Board, Jeff Crippen & Barbara Roberts’ blog a Cry for Justice, and a few others.
    Velour, that was a very kind note you wrote to Penny and I do hope she comes here so that we can offer her support.

    Thank you dear friend. I have been so helped with my wounds, hurts, and church traumas here. I just need to share that with others who have been hurt too and are isolated.

    Hugs.


  170. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    He said it’s very important to be explicit in the rejection: “I am not interested in you and I never will be.”

    I’ve had guys pretend not to see me when I spoke. They’d look up at the ceiling or to the side if I said anything. I also have had guys who have told me that I didn’t really mean it when I told them I wasn’t interested and to stop calling me. I remember one told me I was playing hard to get, and that must mean I really liked him.

    These guys weren’t all Calvinistas. They were just desperate chauvinists, and most of them were really socially inept.


  171. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I think many Christian guys assume if a Christian woman isn’t married by age 30, then she must be desperate enough to marry anyone. So the really desperate ones assume that any single woman really wants them, no matter what.

    I’m single by choice. I’ve had chances that I chose not to take. I am comfortable with who I am and with being single, and someone would have to be really spectacular to change that.

    But all they see is “female” and “single”. I think “Christian” and “breathing” might be optional.


  172. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    FW Rez wrote:

    What if the wife doesn’t comply with the husband’s request?
    The logical conclusion is that she becomes the sinner who is in disobedience to God by not being submissive.

    I think your understanding of Kassian’s page was spot on.

    About the part I quoted by you in bold face type, that is one thing I’ve been asking and wondering about for a long time.

    Say I do end up marrying a complementarian man. And say I don’t want to submit to him, what then?

    I don’t believe in one-way submission in a marital relationship, or that submission is based on gender, so I refuse to go by the complementarian understanding of submission if I marry.

    I think Deb and Dee did a post a long time ago about -(was it by Doug Wilson??) – where the preacher was saying a wife refused to wash dishes by hand, or right that instant, per her husband’s request.

    The dirty dishes stacked up in the sink. The preacher’s (Wilson’s?) advice to the husband was to get him to call the couple’s church’s elders, tattle on the wife about the dirty dishes, and get the elders to come to the home and scold the wife.

    There is so much wrong and ridiculous about that, one of which being, I don’t think it’s a church’s business to get into the mundane, nitty gritty of a married couple’s life, treating them as though they are 5 year old children who need supervision.

    The guy who wrote this blog post tackled some of these same issues:

    “Control: The Reason The Gospel Coalition and CBMW Cannot Actually Condemn Spousal Abuse”
    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2016/01/control-reason-gospel-coalition-and.html


  173. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    I also have had guys who have told me that I didn’t really mean it when I told them I wasn’t interested and to stop calling me. I remember one told me I was playing hard to get, and that must mean I really liked him.

    Wasn’t there something somewhere about these guys liking Jane Austen movies? This bit reminded me so much of mr Collins! Maybe they don’t realize he’s not the one they’re supposed to emulate.

    I think Gavin de Becker said guys not taking no for an answer even in tiny things that don’t matter is a huge red flag.


  174. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Wasn’t there something somewhere about these guys liking Jane Austen movies? This bit reminded me so much of mr Collins! Maybe they don’t realize he’s not the one they’re supposed to emulate.

    Some of them have been EXACTLY like Mr. Collins!


  175. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    (point 1)
    Yes, but 2015 was Before Trueman. I think the tide is going out very rapidly on ESS, and the boys at CMBW know that.

    (point 2)
    Gramp3 and other good men are not showy peacocks who are ***thrilled*** about demonstrating their Authority at every opportunity.

    About point 1.
    Without ESS, Complementarians are pretty much without a solid case of trying to prove to egalitarians (or anyone who disagrees with comp) that women are to be subordinate to men over their lifetimes and forbidden from holding certain roles, when that subordination is based on an unchanging trait (biological sex) and is not temporary.

    Point 2. I read in a book by Christian psychiatrists something like one should not demand respect or power from other people, because one already possesses power and worth.

    You shouldn’t feel the need to ask it from others.

    I’ve seen some complementarian men admit in blog posts that they need women to feel or act weak and passive in order for them to feel strong, competent, or needed.

    I would think they would know better, that their worth and value comes from Jesus Christ, and that demanding 50% of the human population intentionally dumb themselves down to make their 50% feel better is very warped and unnecessary.

    As a woman, I refuse to intentionally dumb myself down or drastically change some aspect of my personality (e.g., act like a helpless waif all the time) all to soothe another person’s frail sense of self or ego.


  176. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Russell Moore…said he is excited about Burk’s selection

    Oh yes, New Calvinist icons are chiming in on Twitter to endorse Burk (Mohler, Strachan).


  177. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    He said it’s very important to be explicit in the rejection: “I am not interested in you and I never will be.”
    I’ve had guys pretend not to see me when I spoke. They’d look up at the ceiling or to the side if I said anything. I also have had guys who have told me that I didn’t really mean it when I told them I wasn’t interested and to stop calling me. I remember one told me I was playing hard to get, and that must mean I really liked him.
    These guys weren’t all Calvinistas. They were just desperate chauvinists, and most of them were really socially inept.

    That’s terrible.

    People should just drop it and move on.


  178. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    This may be a little off topic or only a tad related. Someone on another site posted this.

    Can you spot what is wrong with this? (Referring to a Bible-based mistake, nothing to do with politics)
    (transcript from a radio show)
    —————————
    FALWELL, JR.: Well, I think Jesus said we’re all sinners.
    When they ask that question, I always talk about the story of the woman at the well who had had five husbands and she was living with somebody she wasn’t married to, and they wanted to stone her.
    And Jesus said he’s – he who is without sin cast the first stone. …
    ———
    Source:
    http://www.npr.org/2016/07/21/486854408/political-star-power-comes-out-for-day-3-of-the-republican-convention

    That’s a little like saying, “I remember the Bible story where God told Moses to lead all animals two by two into the ark, and then Jeremiah raised Lazarus from the dead.”


  179. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    t Burk’s selection and looks forward to “working with CBMW to serve the church toward a biblical view of God’s good design for men and women, girls and

    Did you read what Owen is reported to have said about this year’s election?


  180. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Daisy:
    Yes! When I attended a comp church the ladies were frequently told to ask their husbands how they could serve them better. My husband was never told to ask me how he could love me better! A man’s measure of success as a leader was based on how good his wife made him look in all her submissive glory.


  181. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    The dirty dishes stacked up in the sink. The preacher’s (Wilson’s?) advice to the husband was to get him to call the couple’s church’s elders, tattle on the wife about the dirty dishes, and get the elders to come to the home and scold the wife.

    I’ve been canning again today. I threw supper in the oven in between pots of stuff. I know have two canners going on the stove and bread in the oven. I have dirty dishes in the sink, on the countertop, and on the bar. I’m exhausted. The health probs plus the work is kicking my fanny. I’m not doing dishes and cleaning the kitchen tonight. If my husband doesn’t like it …… Heh, heh, heh…..


  182. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    I’ve said this before on other threads, but for all their complaining about delayed marriage or no marriage, they are not doing themselves any favors with complementarianism. I have no desire to marry a complementarian Christian, and based on comments I’ve seen of single Christian women on other sites, neither do they.

    I know that Katie Botkin (blogger/writer/photographer) has escaped the NeoCalvinism world/Comp world and her ex-husband goes to Doug Wilson’s church in Moscow, ID.

    Botkin’s cousins are those famous, single sisters — living under the authority of daddy at home despite being well into their 20’s or more. And they haven’t gotten married. So much for the Comp dream coming true if you follow “the formula”.

    Several men have commented on blogs that they would NEVER date or marry a woman who was enmeshed with her father and it’s not healthy.


  183. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    FW Rez wrote:
    The guy who wrote this blog post tackled some of these same issues:
    “Control: The Reason The Gospel Coalition and CBMW Cannot Actually Condemn Spousal Abuse”
    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2016/01/control-reason-gospel-coalition-and.html

    Wow. That article demonstrated an excellent understanding of the dynamics of abuse.


  184. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    t Burk’s selection and looks forward to “working with CBMW to serve the church toward a biblical view of God’s good design for men and women, girls and
    Did you read what Owen is reported to have said about this year’s election?

    I saw it briefly on Twitter about him not believing in a woman president. And I didn’t have time to Tweet but will soon: “OK, for the women who believe like you do — tell them NOT to vote AT ALL, in ANY election, because it was the women in my family who helped get the 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution passed [womens’ right to vote].”

    I was raised with elderly women who told us stories about what it was like to be in graduate school in university and NOT have the right to vote. They worked very hard to get us the right to vote and I get so tired of the ingrates and whiners who take it all for granted.


  185. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    And Jesus said he’s – he who is without sin cast the first stone. …

    The NASB notes that the passage of the woman caught in adultery is not actually in the Bible. If you’re interested, there an excellent analysis in entitled, “My Favorite Passage That’s Not in the Bible.”

    Here:

    https://bible.org/article/my-favorite-passage-thats-not-bible


  186. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    When they ask that question, I always talk about the story of the woman at the well who had had five husbands and she was living with somebody she wasn’t married to, and they wanted to stone her.
    And Jesus said he’s – he who is without sin cast the first stone. …

    Yes, he’s confused by two separate passages: The Samaritan woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery.


  187. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    t Burk’s selection and looks forward to “working with CBMW to serve the church toward a biblical view of God’s good design for men and women, girls and

    Did you read what Owen is reported to have said about this year’s election?

    Yes. And politics aside, Deborah. These inerrancy guys really hate stuff that’s actually in the bible.


  188. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Victorious:

    Wow!


  189. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    So the women are told to dumb themselves down, because supposedly all men are turned off by, or scared of, competen

    Baloney!
    I was raised in a completely opposite environment. Being far and away the oldest child in a farming family, my family members were all proud of me for my creativity (figuring out how to fix a barn door or get the brood sow in the pens we needed them in by myself, etc., I’m not an artsy person.), determination, and reliability.

    A “man” who can’t cope it’s a strong women isn’t a man at all! I won’t dumb down, and I won’t back down, just to make some immature male feel like a man.


  190. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Deborah

    I like Jael! : D


  191. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    This is written by a complementarian lady who is so upset with other complementarians playing around with the Trinity to make points about gender roles, she wants someone to invent a new word to describe her views, rather than use “complementarian”:

    We Need A New Name
    https://adaughterofthereformation.wordpress.com/2016/07/21/we-need-a-new-name/


  192. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Yes. And politics aside, Deborah. These inerrancy guys really hate stuff that’s actually in the bible.

    They just pick and choose what fits their agenda. They seem very unconcerned about what happens when they leave this earth.


  193. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Deborah
    I like Jael! : D

    Every time I see that name – Jael – I have to post that wonderful Precious Moments spoof cartoon that Rachel Stone’s father did. Tim Fall had it on his blog:
    https://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/biblical-womanhood-is-nothing-and-neither-is-biblical-manhood/


  194. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    Here is what I got up…the Senior Pastor Dave Ward Miller of Rocky Hill Community Church in Exeter, California (EFCA) writes on his blog how a person should leave a church. My question….is this applicable? In the wasteland of modern evangelicalism does this work?
    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/07/20/dave-ward-miller-of-rocky-hill-community-church-in-exeter-california-on-how-to-leave-a-church-my-question-in-the-hubris-of-modern-evangelicalism-is-this-applicable/

    This is excellent!


  195. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:
    From the WaPo article:

    This time, evangelicals are starting out disinclined to vote for Clinton because of policy, not persona. Mohler said he hasn’t heard much talk about gender yet — and he expects he soon will. “I think in general terms, there is a good reason why men tend to lead in these positions. I think embedded in creation is a natural tendency,” he said.

    Well, that is nuanced, isn’t it? A natural tendency embedded in creation is not the same thing as what CBMW and T4g and TgC and 9Marks and Acts29 have been saying is absolutely essential to getting the Gospel right. They have been saying that females are created by God to be subordinate, not that females have a natural tendency to follow rather than lead.

    It certainly looks like the Pope of the SBC is resetting on this issue, at least for the WaPo audience. Which is it, Al? Natural tendency or God’s Created Order?


  196. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/07/20/god-might-not-want-a-woman-to-be-president-some-religious-conservatives-say/
    This one’s a doozy. Deborah – ” …. it was shameful for her to have to step up and lead Israel when the men faltered.”

    Owen is so wrong on this!

    Did you ever see mean girls? There is a part where her crush is trying to explain math, badly, to her and she keeps thinking ‘wrong. So wrong!’ That’s me every time he speaks. Except I’m not crushing.


  197. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    she wants someone to invent a new word to describe her views, rather than use “complementarian”:

    Here’s a few:
    STASS (sanctified testosterone and soap-bubble submission)
    TM (Theological Misogyny)
    MMA (Macho Man Authoritarianism)
    V-SOW (Voluntary Slavery of Women)


  198. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:

    We are comp kinda except decent

    = WACKED


  199. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:

    I agree with everything you said.

    Much of Kassian’s recent post (where she answered to questions posted by R. Tucker) sounded mostly to me as though she was describing an egalitarian marriage.

    It makes me wonder what the complementarians really think are the key differences between complementarianism and egalitarianism when they describe their position to sound so similar to the other.

    And since they view marriage in such a similar fashion to egalitarians, why do they often accuse egalitarians of being anti-biblical, liberal, bra-burning feminists?

    I personally think that deep down, at the core of complementarianism, is a belief in male hierarchy and priority over women, and that is one huge distinction between it and egalitarianism – but some complementarians, who try to play down how comp can be used to enable domestic violence and etc – don’t want to admit it, or are blind to that – or something.


  200. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    We are comp kinda except decent
    = WACKED

    That one is really good!


  201. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Did you ever see mean girls? There is a part where her crush is trying to explain math, badly, to her and she keeps thinking ‘wrong. So wrong!’ That’s me every time he speaks. Except I’m not crushing.

    They just skip the parts in the Bible where women do anything substantive. Their concern about the Bible being inerrant was just part of their dirty political tactic IMO.


  202. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    It makes me wonder what the complementarians really think are the key differences between complementarianism and egalitarianism when they describe their position to sound so similar to the other.

    When they are speaking to a friendly audience, they will talk more about subordination. When they are speaking to a skeptical or neutral audience, they sound much more mutualist because subordination is such an unwinsome idea. They try to have it both ways and end up being incoherent.


  203. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Owen is so wrong on this!

    He has said quite enough to make it clear that he is a firm believer in patriarchy.


  204. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Dave (Eagle):
    Dave Ward Miller’s article is just another form of control, manipulation and intimidation to keep the flock in line. If you are led by the Holy Spirit to leave a church – if that check in your Spirit is prompting you to move along – do so. As a believer, your soul stands competent before God to move freely in His Kingdom. You have a God-given freedom and ability to know and respond to God’s will for your life. Use that Christian liberty to exit a church if you sense His leading and don’t feel pressured by the pulpit in your decision … you have a free will.


  205. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    One always getting their way spouse and another always giving is not unity.

    On Byrd’s page she did say in minor disputes, like whether to eat at Taco Bell or Burger King that the husband should defer to the wife.

    But concerning big topics, like whether to move (to summarize her views as best I can), the husband should listen to the wife and consider her feelings, but ultimately, the choice is up to him, and the wife needs to understand that and be go along with it.

    I was engaged to a guy who did not take “no,” or disagreement, very well, not on big topics, not on small ones. Plus, my mother raised me to be a compliant doormat.

    The result? For several years, I stuffed down what I wanted and needed and did everything the ex wanted, when he wanted, and how he wanted.

    All of which tired me out and made me resentful. That was one reason of a few I broke up with the guy. (Sure, my ex got his way almost all the time, but it cost him the relationship in the end.)

    Telling women to continually defer to a guy and let the guy get his way automatically all the time will create resentment in the woman. I lived that first-hand.


  206. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    We Need A New Name
    https://adaughterofthereformation.wordpress.com/2016/07/21/we-need-a-new-name/

    I agree that they need a new name. They can’t use “traditional” because the traditional view was grounded in supposed actual inferiority. But few believe in inferiority anymore, so gender Roles in the church and home are somewhat ungrounded now. ISTM that a question these non-CBMW complementarians are going to have to grapple with is the purpose for God’s restrictions on women? What is the omnipotent “gar” for and what does Paul’s supposed rationale mean in 1 Timothy if Roles are not found in the Creation accounts? Are females restricted because the male was created first or because the female was deceived and sinned rather than sinning with a high hand? That, IMO, is a huge logical and exegetical problem because neither of those reasons make much sense. An alternative is that God is arbitrary or has hidden reasons, but that is not very satisfying, IMO.

    I am very sympathetic to women like Rachel Miller and Aimee Byrd and Wendy Alsup and some others. They are bright and educated and courageous.


  207. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Friend wrote:

    As firm as hair spray in the 1950s?…

    I do not remember Liquinet, but I certainly do remember Aquanet. Aerosol marine varnish.


  208. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    siteseer wrote:

    Why do these people feel such a drive to introduce and enforce this system of hierarchy on all believers? What is in it for them? What is their end goal? What is it to them how other believers work out their marriage and family relationships? Why is their focus on human relationships and hierarchy instead of on the person of Jesus Christ?

    It could be greed. Some of them do make money selling books and stuff about it.

    With a lot of the rest of them, I think they sincerely see gender roles (as taught by them) as a remedy to things they are concerned about in culture, such as feminism, abortion, homosexual marriage, etc.

    The funny thing is, I don’t see the Bible telling Christians to fix culture, and certainly not via gender role teachings.


  209. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    In the mind of the comp, though, you can only have unity if someone is the head – final decision maker.

    I wonder how complementarians expect marital unity to come about via automatic female compliance to male wishes, when in the long term (as I was just explaining in a few pots above), this creates resentment, depression, and/or frustration in the female?

    It only produces a surface, temporary unity, not a lasting, genuine one.


  210. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    It only produces a surface, temporary unity, not a lasting, genuine one

    These guys do not want a woman, they want some type of robot.


  211. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    I wonder how complementarians expect marital unity to come about via automatic female compliance to male wishes, when in the long term (as I was just explaining in a few pots above), this creates resentment, depression, and/or frustration in the female?

    They are pretty dumb. That’s the only explanation I have.


  212. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    Apparently this teaching is so complex, it requires leaders who are constantly guiding and directing people on how to live it out.
    ——————
    (Gram3 said)
    It is almost like that is the point! And said leaders are more than willing to provide “resources” and “learning opportunities” for a price. And, naturally, you will require frequent refreshers and CE. For a price. Doubt and uncertainty can be erased!

    When they do bother to come up with teachings to cover every conceivable issue that can come up in marriage or a church, you end up with stuff like Grudem’s ‘List of 83 Things Women Should Not Do’ or whatever it was.

    Wayne Grudem: 83 Biblical Rules for Gospel Women
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/12/03/wayne-grudem-83-biblical-rules-for-gospel-women/

    It’s kind of like how the Pharisees added tons and tone of other rules and laws on top of the ones already in the Old Testament.


  213. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    This is written by a complementarian lady who is so upset with other complementarians playing around with the Trinity to make points about gender roles, she wants someone to invent a new word to describe her views, rather than use “complementarian”:

    We Need A New Name
    https://adaughterofthereformation.wordpress.com/2016/07/21/we-need-a-new-name/

    As a linguist and storyteller, what I find so fascinating about this situation — and so understandably frustrating for these “other” complementarians — is that the description of the term (there hasn’t really ever been a precise definition, has there?) has been so dictated by CBMW for so long. So, almost the only way to come up with a new term requires them to also describe in exquisite detail the areas of overlap with the CBMW disciples and where they have significant disagreements. I believe they’re going to need a whole lot of Venn diagrams to illustrate this … but this is part of what happens when a substantially false or highly flawed narrative has been promoted by those in control. You have to refute the outright errors and half-truths, AND tell the truth, both more fully and more accurately.

    A lot of us in the survivor community understand these kinds of false-narrative push-back dynamics, because our own beliefs and actions were likely the object of spin and sin by authoritarian leaders. How did we go about correcting the record (if we were led in that direction and had the energy to do so)? It usually takes an immense amount of time and tenacious effort.

    For instance, this week, I spoke with someone who had several people writing up a case study for a particular situation that took place over the past 5 years. It took them 2 years to select the documents that uncovered the truth in a coherent timeline, and get those details plus analysis down in print. We’ve watched as Recovering Grace took about 3 to 4 years to compile online accounts of dozens of survivors from alleged sexual harassment by Bill Gothard over the past 4 to 5 decades, providing massive documentation, plus theological critique, so that the destructive patterns would be nearly irrefutable.

    So — the new-namers [[Non-CBMW, Non-ESS/EFS/ERAS, pro-Nicene/Constantinople complementarians]] have a whale of a time ahead of them. Not only do they have to come up with another term, they have to make sure their term is so carefully differentiated from the word *complementarian(ism)*, and their description so extensive, that they will never ever again be lumped in with the ESS/EFS/ERAS crowd that has been called out to either renounce their error — or to stop claiming they *are* in the flow of pro-Nicene orthodoxy when their academic peers have shown them decidedly shown that they are not. Also, they have to be watchful to ensure their term does not get hijacked.

    I genuinely wish them well. This entire situation with ESS/EFS/ERAS has highlighted the need to take up the task of personal study and communal discernment by everyday disciples, for them to solidify what they truly believe, and not just go with the flow of what the official theologians of some now-highly-suspect Council suggests. It forces any/all who hold to some kind of “polarity/complementary” gender roles to search the Scriptures to see what things are so. Who knows … their results might end up quite surprising …

    Final thought: A great resource of links on the related issues is at Jenny’s Stool post, “The ESS/EFS/ERAS Debate.”*

    https://jennysstool.com/the-essefseras-debate/

    * Her acronym list for the debate: Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS), Eternal Functional Subordination (EFS), Eternal Relationship of Authority and Submission (ERAS)–ESS/EFS/ERAS vs. Eternal Generation of the Son (EG) and Eternal Procession (EP).


  214. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    I wonder how complementarians expect marital unity to come about via automatic female compliance to male wishes, when in the long term (as I was just explaining in a few pots above), this creates resentment, depression, and/or frustration in the female?

    Honestly I think that many of these young men and women have come from fractured families and they desire stability. I think that many have no concept of how a marriage based on real unity of purpose without hierarchy is even possible. And many of them are so young that they have no living memory of a time when the doctrine of ESS was not “what the church has always considered orthodox.” Many are so young that they have not lived in the system long enough to see the fruit of depression and resentment you describe.

    That is why I think there is going to be a huge wake-up call when they discover their daughters and/or granddaughters have married an abusive control-freak who has been taught all his life that God expects his wife to obey him. Reality is going to become very real. Most of these guys have pre-teens and have not even considered the possibility of their daughters being trapped with an abuser.

    The flip side is the sons and grandsons who find themselves trapped in a marriage to an abusive female who feels entitled to everything because her husband is supposed to lay down his life for her whims because that is the deal she made. Or else.


  215. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    I completely agree. But why are they doing this? Why do they not do it in other instances? What is it so important, to them, that a man has authority or is the head? I believe they have some self examination to do – which I don’t see them doing. Christ was not fixated on being the head – but a servant, as we all should do.

    That is a good point. In the Evans book about Verbal Abuse, she explains that in order to stop verbally abusing other people, the abuser would have to do some deep self-examination and/or go into therapy, probably for years.

    She says most verbal abusers don’t want to do that, because it would force them to face some painful inner stuff and painful issues from childhood. (And it takes effort and a lot of hard work to face your inner issues and demons.)

    So they find it easier, she says, to repress all that and keep on abusing. Maybe it’s similar with complementarians.


  216. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    … they see it as a way to manipulate their young wives into submission in every compartment of their poor lives.

    Unless those husbands are incredibly controlling…

    There’s this nifty invention Al Gore created called the Internet, where their wives can find all sorts of blogs and articles refuting complementarian views.

    I think complementarians are going to find it more and more difficult (thanks to the internet) to convince women they are to be submissive doormats to their husbands.


  217. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ brad/futuristguy:

    For a serious answer, I don’t think you need a label. You should do what works for you (in marriage/relationships) and let everybody else mind their own business.

    Church is sort of different.


  218. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Patti:
    I might have to get back with you later on that, because I think it might take me awhile to answer.

    In a nutshell, I tend to have traditional values that align more with right wingers, whereas a lot of secular feminists tend to be liberal / progressive / left wing on most issues.


  219. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I genuinely wish them well. This entire situation with ESS/EFS/ERAS has highlighted the need to take up the task of personal study and communal discernment by everyday disciples, for them to solidify what they truly believe, and not just go with the flow of what the official theologians of some now-highly-suspect Council suggests

    Max or Muff (one of our M’s, can remember which one) recently said that very thing: People have to get along with God and study themselves.

    The best thing I ever did post bad church experience was take all of my NeoCalvinist books and toss them in the recycling container (I ripped them up and threw them out separately so no one could read them).

    Christian friends in Europe told me that they had also thrown out the books I’d sent them ages ago, but they didn’t have the heart to tell me at the time (I was in too deep). Thank goodness I woke up.


  220. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    siteseer wrote:

    Great points on the rest of your post, Daisy.

    Thank you 🙂

    siteseer wrote:

    But if the husband can step in and make the decision unilaterally in the end, does that negate the former part of the process? I.e., was it just for show?

    Thank you for writing that! That thought went through my mind as I was reading her post, but it didn’t cross my mind to type it out.

    It did occur to me as I was reading Byrd’s post that the result of her view appears to be that the husband listening and caring about his wife’s feelings and wishes is just a dog and pony show, a put on, because at the end of the day, the husband still gets to call the shots, at least concerning major decisions.

    So why bother to confer with the wife at all under this perspective if you’re the husband?? -Just to appear loving, sensitive, etc?


  221. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    For a serious answer, I don’t think you need a label. You should do what works for you (in marriage/relationships) and let everybody else mind their own business.

    Church is sort of different.

    That makes a lot of sense to me, as far as individuals go.

    And yes, re: Church … sort of different. FWIW, I expect some new kinds of terminology almost inevitably will emerge from this set of issues. Because in the flow of Church history, this contentious debate includes some highly serious implications about hitching one’s gender-theology wagon to a Trinitarian theology that is basically being called out as non-orthodox (i.e., “heretical”). And those who do not wish themselves (or their institutions!) to be associated with the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood — and the inherent theological pitfalls in that connection — will need to find ways to dissociate themselves from the Council, its spokesmen and spokeswomen, its statements, and its theological errors.


  222. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    take all of my NeoCalvinist books and toss them in the recycling container (I ripped them up and threw them out separately so no one could read them).

    Guess you’re in good company …

    Acts 19:18-20. Many who believed now came and openly admitted what they had done. A number of those who had practiced evil magic brought their scrolls together. They set them on fire out in the open. They added up the value of the scrolls. The scrolls were worth more than someone could earn in two lifetimes. The word of the Lord spread everywhere. It became more and more powerful. (New International Reader’s Version, from Biblegateway dot com)


  223. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    take all of my NeoCalvinist books and toss them in the recycling container (I ripped them up and threw them out separately so no one could read them).
    Guess you’re in good company …
    Acts 19:18-20. Many who believed now came and openly admitted what they had done. A number of those who had practiced evil magic brought their scrolls together. They set them on fire out in the open. They added up the value of the scrolls. The scrolls were worth more than someone could earn in two lifetimes. The word of the Lord spread everywhere. It became more and more powerful. (New International Reader’s Version, from Biblegateway dot com)

    Thanks, Brad. I needed that encouragement.


  224. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mara wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    In the mind of the comp, though, you can only have unity if someone is the head
    Have you heard this one? “Marriage can only have one head. If it has two heads then it becomes a two-headed monster.”
    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/06/have-you-ever-heard-this-one.html

    The head is Christ, not a mortal man.


  225. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    And those who do not wish themselves (or their institutions!) to be associated with the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood — and the inherent theological pitfalls in that connection — will need to find ways to dissociate themselves from the Council, its spokesmen and spokeswomen, its statements, and its theological errors.

    That’s going to be tough since SBTS and CBMW both have addresses on Lexington Avenue in Louisville, if I am not mistaken.


  226. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    That’s going to be tough since SBTS and CBMW both have addresses on Lexington Avenue in Louisville, if I am not mistaken.

    There’s a whole lotta organization conflation goin’ on with this CBMW-style non-Nicene pro-ESS-etc complementarianism. So, it’ll take some diligent work to disconnect from the associations involved, should someone be so inclined.


  227. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    So, it’ll take some diligent work to disconnect from the associations involved, should someone be so inclined.

    I think Mohler has started that with his WaPo statement about gender roles that was linked above. Smooth, very smooth. Almost did not notice the subtle change. 😉


  228. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:

    Well, you’re at least running into single, Christian men. A lot of Christian women wonder where they all hang out.

    About every church I’ve visited or been to for months at a time lack single men from around ages 25 to 95. The only men that go are married guys or little boys.

    The dating site variety of Christian men I bumped into during my time were vulgar horn dogs (this even includes men who were ages 35 up to their 50s).

    I have no idea where, if one is a single Christian woman pat 30 or 35 years old, one can find a single Christian man of the same age range. You’d have better luck finding a four leaf clover in your front yard.


  229. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mara wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    In the mind of the comp, though, you can only have unity if someone is the head
    Have you heard this one? “Marriage can only have one head. If it has two heads then it becomes a two-headed monster.”
    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/06/have-you-ever-heard-this-one.html

    Well, you see… Bossship is delegated pyramid-like, so each one has just one immediate boss except god the boss, of course. He’s boss of christ who bosses around the holy ghost who bosses the pastors who boss the pew-peon males who boss their wives who boss the kids who kick the dogs.I hope this helps.


  230. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    When a woman delays a decision she is being indecisive. When a man delays a decision he is waiting on God’s direction.

    On a similar note:

    When a woman teaches or believes false doctrine, it’s because Eve was easily deceived, and therefore all women should be barred from preaching or teaching.

    If a man teaches or believes false doctrine, it’s no big deal, and men should not be barred from preaching or teaching.


  231. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    And to illustrate this, when I did not accept his proposal, his answer was, “Well, then I’ll just have to wait until you come around, and see it my way, what God has told me.” In other words, I’m right and you’re wrong, and you need to see this my way.
    However, in marriage, he indicated he would not wait. It felt like he would bully his way as his God-given mandate. That was the creepy part. I felt at that point like I was dealing with a bully.

    Yes, he sure sounds like one. And a flake and a kook.


  232. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    It struck me while reading the “one anothers” list that this actually may prove one of the strongest Bible-based arguments for the kind of Kingdom mutuality that destroyed the cultural differentials of race, class, and gender in an ancient world where slavery, imperialism, and patriarchy were the norms.

    Much agreed


  233. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    This sounds like OOP

    JAVA – everything is an object, OBJECT being the parent class.

    CBWM – everyone is a CLASS, but MAN is a static class that does not need to be instantiated while women are a sub-class who’s methods can only be accessed when properly instantiated by the encapsulating MAN class.


  234. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:
    From your link:

    Russell Moore, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, said he is excited about Burk’s selection and looks forward to “working with CBMW to serve the church toward a biblical view of God’s good design for men and women, girls and boys.”

    There’s really not much “biblical” about complementarianism, when one takes a good, long hard look at it.

    I also don’t recall the Bible saying God designed men, boys, women, and girls to be a certain way, and that they need to be taught to be how they were supposedly designed by God to be. Talk about reading your cultural assumptions in the Bible.


  235. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:

    Also from the page you linked to:

    [Owen Strachan]…is quoted in a July 20 Washington Post article about religious conservatives — with former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton poised to become the Democratic nominee for president — who are questioning if it is God’s will for a woman to rule as a head of state.

    A good number of evangelicals would probably prefer to see men lead in the political arena, and I would be one of them,” Strachan said. “Many evangelicals would say that men need to be the ones who step up and take responsibility, not simply for the home and the church, but also for the community.”

    At least his sexism is more consistent than that of the other complementarians, who are okay with Sarah Palin being in office but not okay with Grandma Gertrude or Auntie Bertha teaching Bible stories to 13 year old boys at church.


  236. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    That’s the message of CBMW: be wall-to-wall carpeting and let people walk all over you.
    You have no value

    I was taught that and role modeled it by my mother, who believed in traditional gender role stuff, and to a degree, by my father.

    I love them both, but their methods of parenting and certain views they raised me to believe did some long lasting damage I’m trying to work my way through even now.

    When you’re taught to believe that way, you end up attracting all sorts of users, mean people, abusers, etc.


  237. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I feel lead to write this, please forgive if it is out of place. I am not a pastor, nor and elder, evangelical leader and an outside the pale of orthodoxy “Christian”. To all the women in and out of the church, your voice has often been silenced and your light has been hidden because of “doctrine” and beliefs that divide the Body of Jesus. For that I am sorry. There have been children and innocents who have been silenced and their abuse hidden to protect a brand or leader. For that I am sorry. For both men and women who have been injured by the church often in the name of Jesus. For that I am sorry. I cant tell you the times I have wept for you wonderful people who have been so wronged by the one place that should have been there for you, your church, your local faith family. For that I am sorry. If I could change it I would but know this you are a blessing and your stories uplift even a cynical soul such as myself.

    I do hope you all find healing, you can and will find it in Jesus, He will never leave you or forsake you. May you be blessed this weekend. brian

    Thanks, Dee and Deb for your wonderful support of this blog and you to Julie Ann on your blog offering a voice for the voiceless and a place the Holy Spirit has and will use to bring healing.


  238. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    Earlier this spring, a Christian engineer friend of mine (thus an educated Christian professional that I’ve known for some time), proposed to me, or rather told me we were to be married with, “God has spoken and told me that you are to be my wife.”

    Bummer, sad to say I’ve seen many a strange “Christian” but I would hope a fellow engineer would have more good sense.


  239. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Victorious:

    Oh yes, I know. 🙂 I learned about that years ago when studying a lot on the KJVO controversy.


  240. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    When they are speaking to a friendly audience, they will talk more about subordination. When they are speaking to a skeptical or neutral audience, they sound much more mutualist because subordination is such an unwinsome idea. They try to have it both ways and end up being incoherent.

    They do tend to shift their marketing depending upon who they are speaking to at any given moment, which may explain stuff like…

    Some complementarians are marketing
    1. an Action Figure, Tough Guy version of Jesus to men,
    But 2. telling women, “Jesus was such a passive, touchy feely, nuturing, sensitive guy, look at how well he Submitted to The Father and he loved being second banana!”

    And Kassian-
    1. telling women being a complementarian does not mean you have to marry, have babies, and bake casseroles all day, but
    2. the next post on her blog has biblical, godly casserole recipes,
    and the one after that cries over how evil secular feminists have convinced more Christian women to be single and childless.


  241. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    FW Rez wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    This sounds like OOP
    ——————-
    JAVA – everything is an object, OBJECT being the parent class.
    CBWM – everyone is a CLASS, but MAN is a static class that does not need to be instantiated while women are a sub-class who’s methods can only be accessed when properly instantiated by the encapsulating MAN class.

    I actually understood most of what you wrote, woo hoo! I guess all the reading up on OOP a few years back was handy for something. LOL. I am rusty on some of the jargon and stuff, though.


  242. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ brian:

    That was a lovely post, Brian.


  243. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    That is why I think there is going to be a huge wake-up call when they discover their daughters and/or granddaughters have married an abusive control-freak who has been taught all his life that God expects his wife to obey him. Reality is going to become very real. Most of these guys have pre-teens and have not even considered the possibility of their daughters being trapped with an abuser.

    That may well be, but I did see this one post by a blogger at Patheos that gives me pause.

    He talks about how a preacher called him at home worried, because he found out his daughter was being abused by her husband, and he didn’t know what to do.

    The blogger tried explaining things to the preacher, but the preacher is so deeply steeped in this gender comp stuff, he seemed befuddled. Here’s the post:

    “Bible believing” pastors and the enabling of domestic violence
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/2015/04/bible-believing-pastors-and-the-enabling-of-domestic-violence/


  244. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    John wrote:

    So discount this if you want, but as an outside observer now these things seem pretty obvious to me.

    I struggled with it for such a long time but finally leaving church opened my eyes to so many things, things that ought to have been obvious to me, I think, but weren’t. I count it a blessing.


  245. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Slight off topic post.
    Could folks please pray for Harley, a poster in Canada.
    “I see my foot doctor this coming Friday morning – 8 am your time, to see what we will do next. I really just want to be out of this terrific pain. Not too much to ask. It may take more surgeries though. I have had 17 already on my left foot.
    ReplyReply w/Quote (select the text to quote then click this button)”

    Also aging parents, dementia, elder care issues, her sister is closer to parents,
    and other family stressors. Please pray for these issues too.

    Thank you, friends.


  246. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ brian:

    Thank you, Brian, and God bless you, as well.


  247. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Well, you’re at least running into single, Christian men. A lot of Christian women wonder where they all hang out.
    About every church I’ve visited or been to for months at a time lack single men from around ages 25 to 95. The only men that go are married guys or little boys.

    I went to seminary. Outside of that, I’ve found it to be much the same. The last church I went to, there were about 30 single women, and about 5 single guys. Several of those guys were scary beyond belief. The rest are now taken, far as I know.


  248. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    That is why I think there is going to be a huge wake-up call when they discover their daughters and/or granddaughters have married an abusive control-freak who has been taught all his life that God expects his wife to obey him. Reality is going to become very real. Most of these guys have pre-teens and have not even considered the possibility of their daughters being trapped with an abuser.
    The flip side is the sons and grandsons who find themselves trapped in a marriage to an abusive female who feels entitled to everything because her husband is supposed to lay down his life for her whims because that is the deal she made. Or else.

    All of my close friends who married with this in mind have been divorced since. Some are on their third marriages. Most have had horrible experiences in their first marriages.

    I think the patriarchists are dreaming if they think people are going to stay around and behave, which is why they are trying to force everyone to sign contracts. Even with that, people are probably not going to put up with it permanently.


  249. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    I think the patriarchists are dreaming if they think people are going to stay around and behave, which is why they are trying to force everyone to sign contracts.

    I would add that they are going to continue to have abuse scandals, because patriarchy breeds abuse. They won’t enforce against abusers in their ranks, so these scandals are going to become a hallmark of their movement.


  250. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    That is why I think there is going to be a huge wake-up call when they discover their daughters and/or granddaughters have married an abusive control-freak who has been taught all his life that God expects his wife to obey him. Reality is going to become very real. Most of these guys have pre-teens and have not even considered the possibility of their daughters being trapped with an abuser.
    The flip side is the sons and grandsons who find themselves trapped in a marriage to an abusive female who feels entitled to everything because her husband is supposed to lay down his life for her whims because that is the deal she made. Or else.

    All of my close friends who married with this in mind have been divorced since. Some are on their third marriages. Most have had horrible experiences in their first marriages.

    I think the patriarchists are dreaming if they think people are going to stay around and behave, which is why they are trying to force everyone to sign contracts. Even with that, people are probably not going to put up with it permanently.
    Those ‘contracts’ …. if potential members didn’t realize the danger at the point they were given a ‘membership contract’ to sign,
    then they were either too trusting OR
    they were too ‘needy’ to join and to ‘belong’

    I’m sure that the membership contracts likely screened out many who were ‘cautious’ of manipulation, and therefore not likely to ‘co-operate’ or be cowed by ‘authority’.

    Those contracts were a ‘rite of passage’ in themselves: a ‘baptism’ that revealed a real vulnerability in those who ‘signed’ to ‘join’.

    The ‘leadership’ required pliant, vulnerable members


  251. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    Those ‘contracts’ …. if potential members didn’t realize the danger at the point they were given a ‘membership contract’ to sign,
    then they were either too trusting OR
    they were too ‘needy’ to join and to ‘belong’

    I’m sure that the membership contracts likely screened out many who were ‘cautious’ of manipulation, and therefore not likely to ‘co-operate’ or be cowed by ‘authority’.

    Those contracts were a ‘rite of passage’ in themselves: a ‘baptism’ that revealed a real vulnerability in those who ‘signed’ to ‘join’.

    The ‘leadership’ required pliant, vulnerable members

    SORRY: I forgot to click “REPLY WITH QUOTE” so I confused Gram Three’s words and Ishy’s words and my words.
    My words are on this comment. I need coffee. Badly.


  252. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    That is why I think there is going to be a huge wake-up call when they discover their daughters and/or granddaughters have married an abusive control-freak who has been taught all his life that God expects his wife to obey him. Reality is going to become very real. Most of these guys have pre-teens and have not even considered the possibility of their daughters being trapped with an abuser.
    The flip side is the sons and grandsons who find themselves trapped in a marriage to an abusive female who feels entitled to everything because her husband is supposed to lay down his life for her whims because that is the deal she made. Or else.

    All of my close friends who married with this in mind have been divorced since. Some are on their third marriages. Most have had horrible experiences in their first marriages.

    I think the patriarchists are dreaming if they think people are going to stay around and behave, which is why they are trying to force everyone to sign contracts. Even with that, people are probably not going to put up with it permanently.

    Those ‘contracts’ …. if potential members didn’t realize the danger at the point they were given a ‘membership contract’ to sign,
    then they were either too trusting OR
    they were too ‘needy’ to join and to ‘belong’

    I’m sure that the membership contracts likely screened out many who were ‘cautious’ of manipulation, and therefore not likely to ‘co-operate’ or be cowed by ‘authority’.

    Those contracts were a ‘rite of passage’ in themselves: a ‘baptism’ that revealed a real vulnerability in those who ‘signed’ to ‘join’.

    The ‘leadership’ required pliant, vulnerable members

    (I TRIED AGAIN. THIS SHOULD BE THE CORRECTED COMMENT, please forgive the trouble, pain meds still in effect, yikes)


  253. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    I’m sure that the membership contracts likely screened out many who were ‘cautious’ of manipulation, and therefore not likely to ‘co-operate’ or be cowed by ‘authority’.
    Those contracts were a ‘rite of passage’ in themselves: a ‘baptism’ that revealed a real vulnerability in those who ‘signed’ to ‘join’.

    That might be true for older members, but people who join when they are in their early 20s will likely change their minds.

    It’s just like my friends from Liberty U. who bought into the “Marriage will fix all your problems” line they fed us over and over, and then 5-10 years later found out it was all a big sham. They divorced, and some left the faith entirely or practically.

    A friend of mine that goes to a neo-Calvinist church has told me that there are a lot of single men in her church, but few single women.

    It’s an unsustainable model because it’s not healthy, and it’s not healthy because it’s not of God.


  254. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ brian:

    This is lovely.


  255. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    It’s an unsustainable model because it’s not healthy, and it’s not healthy because it’s not of God.

    Yes. If they just thought about people for one second they might realize this, but they are so busy trying to live up to what they are told is biblical, they miss it entirely. It doesn’t work. The comps who tell us about their good marriages aren’t following this nonsense! They are just checking off a box. They need to stop.


  256. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour – thanks for the comments. I don’t know why there is a Canadian flag with my name. I am born and raised in the USA. I live in Tyler, Tx, which is east of Dallas, TX. I am still having rough days pain wise. I will update on my visit with my doctor later this morning. I am thankful my husband and I are egalitarians. Some of the thing I tell him about the comp people totally astound him.


  257. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sometimes Christian gender complementarianism sounds an awful lot like some types of Islam. Complementarians will sometimes try to sell their form of sexism as though it’s beneficial for women (it amounts to Beneveolent Sexism), and they like to say women are too easily deceived or fragile to be entrusted with teaching, preaching, leading, or making their own choices.

    I was reading this article about driverless cars and Saudi Arabia, and it reminds me of Christian gender complementarianism.

    Saudi Arabia, Driverless Cars, Women Drivers
    Source:
    http://www.inquisitr.com/3333660/google-saudi-arabia-and-the-politics-of-driverless-cars-as-google-works-on-driverless-cars-what-does-tech-giants-upcoming-idea-mean-in-a-country-where-women-cannot-drive/

    Wikipedia .org notes that Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where women are not allowed to drive. Women there have been pushing for this ban to be lifted for some time, but apparently to no avail.

    The basis for these and other limitations on women’s rights is Sharia Law. Wikipedia found that part of this law argues women “lack capacity,” and thus the society must “protect” its female members by restricting their rights.

    …. If the Saudi government does not trust that women have the “judgement” to drive, perhaps they will embrace robots? Even though there is no law that directly bans women from driving in the country, they cannot legally obtain driver’s licenses, and so, in effect, can’t drive.


  258. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    take all of my NeoCalvinist books and toss them in the recycling container

    Praise God, Velour, that you see it … once you see it, you can’t un-see it!

    I frequent yard/garage sales in my area searching for vintage fishing stuff. I’ve noticed that when a Christian icon falls out of favor, his books end up on sale tables. Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Live” is everywhere! I occasionally see a Piper book – a good sign!


  259. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Just a reminder–complementarianism (not a word) does nothing for me and the 50% plus (since 2009) of adult American women who are not married (i.e., single, divorced or widowed). Let me repeat that: NOTHING. And again: NOTHING. I’d love to see these people address what they expect non-married women to do in their comp world, so I can rip it to smithereens.


  260. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ brian:
    Good words Brian – your heart is speaking. As long as there is a genuine Body of Christ on the earth, they will speak for the hurting, the abused, those bound by the doctrines of men.


  261. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    we are questioning as whether it is God’s will for a woman to lead the nation.

    Does anyone know if there are any British complementarians talking about whether it’s God’s will that Theresa May lead the UK? I mean, seriously, people, I can’t believe we’re having this discussion.


  262. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    You can get someone’s address online. Privacy is mostly dead.

    Well yeah, but back in the day (1995) when I started picketing Scientology, I put my address and phone number out on the Internet because I wanted the cult on notice if anything happened to me. That’s because Scientology made a big deal out of trying to find and out anonymous people. I figured being open and up front would take the wind out of their sails, and besides, I wasn’t an ex-Scientologist, just one of those crazy free speech Internet types.

    It generally worked out OK, I never had anything bad happen as a result.


  263. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    we are questioning as whether it is God’s will for a woman to lead the nation.

    God’s will gets mighty tricky. I once was asked on a seminary exam to explain the will of God. I do not remember what I answered but I’m not sure I even came close to answering such a difficult question. I have found that God’s will is usually what someone wants when it jives with their agenda.


  264. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    The comps who tell us about their good marriages aren’t following this nonsense! They are just checking off a box. They need to stop.

    I’ve watched some of those women when I snoop at New Calvinist churches in my area. You can see the oppression on their countenance. A “good” Christian marriage is one characterized by freedom in Christ for every believer in the family. New Calvinist Comp teaching is a form of bondage wrapped in Biblical half-truth, designed to put women in their place in a place that does not exist in the Kingdom of God.


  265. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    Does anyone know if there are any British complementarians talking about whether it’s God’s will that Theresa May lead the UK? I mean, seriously, people, I can’t believe we’re having this discussion.

    If there are, they’re 38 years behind the times. Margaret Thatcher was (in)famously described as “the best man we’ve got” by one of her cabinet colleagues at the time.


  266. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ brian:

    Thank you, Brian.


  267. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    P.S. Incidentally, she did not consider this much of a compliment *.

    * Please note the spelling.


  268. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    Just a reminder–complementarianism (not a word) does nothing for me and the 50% plus (since 2009) of adult American women who are not married (i.e., single, divorced or widowed). Let me repeat that: NOTHING. And again: NOTHING. I’d love to see these people address what they expect non-married women to do in their comp world, so I can rip it to smithereens.

    A few of them have answered this. They say that women must have sinned against God to not earn a husband.

    Or probably to me, they would say I sinned against God by rejecting their pitiful excuses for men.


  269. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dave A A wrote:

    Well, you see… Bossship is delegated pyramid-like, so each one has just one immediate boss except god the boss, of course. He’s boss of christ who bosses around the holy ghost who bosses the pastors who boss the pew-peon males who boss their wives who boss the kids who kick the dogs.

    God is just the One with the Biggest Boot who Holds the Biggest Whip.


  270. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    In the mind of the comp, though, you can only have unity if someone is the head

    Like N.I.C.E.?


  271. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    The blogger tried explaining things to the preacher, but the preacher is so deeply steeped in this gender comp stuff, he seemed befuddled. Here’s the post:

    Also the idea of marriage permanence no matter what. This is another example of taking a statement in the Bible out of its context and making it say something it is not saying. God hates divorce so no divorce. Except that is not the purpose of that statement which has nothing to do with leaving an abusive spouse and everything to do with God hating abusers who, in this case, were abusing their wives by divorcing them just so they could marry others. They never stop to ask why it is they think that God is pleased by someone staying in an abusive marriage and, at the same time, keeping kids in an abusive household. Millstones.


  272. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    occasionally see a Piper book

    “Desiring God” was highly recommended to me when I had no clue who Piper was. Since it didn’t resonate with me when I read it, I gave it away to a reformed (not neo’Cal) friend. I can only hope he shelved it and it stayed there.


  273. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    Just a reminder–complementarianism (not a word) does nothing for me and the 50% plus (since 2009) of adult American women who are not married (i.e., single, divorced or widowed). Let me repeat that: NOTHING. And again: NOTHING. I’d love to see these people address what they expect non-married women to do in their comp world, so I can rip it to smithereens.

    As a never-married woman myself, I completely agree.

    I’d also add childless or child-free women to that list.

    Complementarians not only stress wifehood for women, but they equally promote motherhood (as being a woman’s only Godly purpose or calling in life).

    So, if you’re an infertile woman, or a woman who doesn’t want kids, or who can’t meet a Mr. Right to reproduce, you are a Nobody in complementarianism.

    I think comps are therefore also kind of hard on married women who cannot have kids or who do not want them.

    But comps are definitely the pits in how they marginalize single women.


  274. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:

    “I’ve had guys pretend not to see me when I spoke. They’d look up at the ceiling or to the side if I said anything.”
    ++++++++++++

    ??? what was that all about? do you chalk it up to social ineptness or stemming from some kind of lower view of females?


  275. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    freedom in Christ for every believer

    For those who truly believe, the message of the Cross is this. God does not hold men accountable for Adam’s sin. God does not hold women accountable for Eve’s sin. ALL are set free from sin and death when we put our faith in Jesus. Men and women who accept Christ as Savior and Lord are co-heirs to the Kingdom of God in the here and now. “There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). The Kingdom of God knows no boundaries of race, social status, or gender.


  276. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    @ ishy:
    “I’ve had guys pretend not to see me when I spoke. They’d look up at the ceiling or to the side if I said anything.”
    ++++++++++++
    ??? what was that all about? do you chalk it up to social ineptness or stemming from some kind of lower view of females?

    Maybe both? The two guys that did that scared me. Seriously.


  277. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    I’d love to see these people address what they expect non-married women to do in their comp world, so I can rip it to smithereens.

    Post Script.

    On those infrequent occasions I’ve seen complementarians discuss un-married women, it’s either in the context of they assume you (the un-married woman) will marry eventually (so you are to practice being submissive to men in your single state as practice for marriage)….

    Or, some of them think submission applies to all women, even un-married ones (even though the Bible does not call out single women specifically to submit to any males) –

    So the only things they promote in regards to single ladies is to say run around making sure you are properly deferential to all males you are in contact with.

    About a week ago on another thread, someone on here quoted J-Mac as saying something like it’s in the natures of ALL women (and he was including single ones) to be subordinate to all men.

    -Which I really disagree with (I don’t see that being taught in the Bible), but what does that even mean in practical terms?

    Am I, a single woman, supposed to run around cleaning the dirty socks of men for free,

    Or peeling grapes for men one by one and feeding them, while fanning them with a bird feather duster, all to demonstrate how subordinate I supposedly am created to be to men?


  278. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    The two guys that did that scared me. Seriously.

    That is very creepy. I don’t blame you.

    I’m so glad I went to a non-Christian school, after hearing all these crazy stories!


  279. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    I’d love to see these people address what they expect non-married women to do in their comp world, so I can rip it to smithereens.

    I think there is an article on TgC website written about single women. I did not read it, but you might find it interesting. As you said, they don’t really have a consistent answer to the question of single women, and especially the ones who are flourishing. Similarly, they have nothing to say to single men who are flourishing beyond “find a woman and settle down.”


  280. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    Does anyone know if there are any British complementarians talking about whether it’s God’s will that Theresa May lead the UK? I mean, seriously, people, I can’t believe we’re having this discussion.

    Did you see this post I did farther above (re. CBMW’s Owen Strachan and Americin women in politics):
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/07/20/tww-commenters-weigh-in-on-complementarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-269882


  281. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    I think there is an article on TgC website written about single women.

    There was one on C”B”MW I think that discussed hospitality for single women and it was basically ‘babysit for your married friends’. Like you can’t have a party at your house and invite people? And married people can’t invite you? That one was particularly irritating.


  282. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:

    “Wasn’t there something somewhere about these guys liking Jane Austen movies?”
    ++++++++++

    i mentioned some time ago that in my perusing the ‘about me’ sections of a number of blogs, etc. belonging to christian men, in their summaries of favorite things it seemed that “Sense & Sensibility” showed up often amongst favorite movies. it was the the commonality that was most striking.

    i tend to read a few select blogs. sometimes i’ll want to understand more about a certain commenter or person that is referenced (be they men or women), and so i read what they have made available about themselves.


  283. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    I do not remember Liquinet, but I certainly do remember Aquanet. Aerosol marine varnish.

    I still keep a can of Aquanet around for dealing with bees and wasps that stray in the house. It’s non-toxic to cats and immobilizes the critters nearly instantaneously.


  284. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    There was one on C”B”MW I think that discussed hospitality for single women and it was basically ‘babysit for your married friends’. Like you can’t have a party at your house and invite people? And married people can’t invite you? That one was particularly irritating.

    That’s a Baptist thing as well as a comp thing. I spent two years looking for a new church, and didn’t visit any Calvinista churches. When I asked about how I could get involved, pretty much universally I was told, “We don’t have much for you, but you could work in the nursery.” One church told me I should do so “because it’s more important for couples to go to worship”.


  285. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:

    I went looking for that and the first one I read was a weird thing about a girl who really wants sex. The whole article is just her rambling about it and how hard it is.

    There was also one a week ago about ‘why single is not the same as lonely’, that keeps talking about ‘illicit’ relationships, which as near as I can figure is dating that includes sex?

    elastigirl wrote:

    in their summaries of favorite things it seemed that “Sense & Sensibility” showed up often amongst favorite movies

    Ah, that’s right. I saw that somewhere else too. I tend to think they like that movie, since the handsome charming guy Marianne likes turns out to be a jerk, so she goes for the old less interesting guy. I mean, I’m not anti-Colonel Brandon, but I always felt bad for Marianne. I prefer Pride and Prejudice myself.


  286. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:

    holy smokes…. well, i guess after your description of your prof (who talked of requiring his daughters to submit to him until their submission is transferred to their future husband who he will pick for them), and the scope of influence he obviously has, i’m not really surprised.

    were other students in the classroom as rattled as you were? was it like some shock & awe thing he did, did stir up discussion? or was it more like mundane commentary on life? (as received as such)

    i find this so troubling…. that a person of influence in the bigger picture champions such things. i feel danger signals….


  287. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    A few of them have answered this. They say that women must have sinned against God to not earn a husband.

    Or probably to me, they would say I sinned against God by rejecting their pitiful excuses for men.

    You know, I ran into this on Facebook yesterday, where some “Christians” were all but saying that marriage and children were the default for women. I quoted 1 Corinthians 7:8: “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.”

    Do people just not read their Bibles, or what?


  288. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    I quoted 1 Corinthians 7:8: “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.”
    Do people just not read their Bibles, or what?

    My guess is that their New Testament only has about 20 verses, because those are the only ones they talk about.


  289. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:

    Gram, I had a comment that’s stuck but I’m still skimming TGC articles and found this: “One Sunday, after hearing from our pastor that single women should encourage and follow appropriate initiative and leadership from single men”

    Everything I read from them makes me shake my head.


  290. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    A few of them have answered this. They say that women must have sinned against God to not earn a husband.

    That may be a cover for how much a failure their dating advice is, and they don’t want to admit it.

    I followed Christian dating and relationship advice from the time I was a kid into adulthood to a “T,” and I didn’t get a husband.

    I was a deferential to men, traditional, old fashioned, sweet, June Cleaver type (up until like my late 30s / early 40s), I’ve never had sex, I prayed to God for a spouse, trusted him for a spouse…

    In short, I followed all the evangelical and Baptist rules and advice on how to get a husband, and it still did not work.

    Evangelical or Baptist advise (which they say is biblical) does not work. There are not guarantees in life, no matter how much you pray, have faith, trust God, or follow their rules and advice. And part of that advice was to be submissive to men – that didn’t get me a spouse, either.


  291. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:

    I also think in cases like that is shows how deeply beholden some believers are to doctrine. Like the Pharisees mentioned in the New Testament.

    Some people put adherence and loyalty to their interpretation of some point or another in the Bible over and above the healthy, safety, and happiness of people. Jesus seemed to have real problems with that attitude – if loyalty to doctrine over-rode how people were treated.

    What makes it even sadder and more tragic is that these complementarian fathers and preachers who expect women to stay married to a jerk no matter what are basing this on a warped or incorrect view of the Bible.

    The Bible does not really teach gender complementarianism (which entails, or may entail things like, female subordination, the permanence view of marriage, etc).

    If you (general “you” there, not Gram3 specifically!) –
    If you are going to be that loyal to some doctrine, one that has been known to cause great harm to people, I think you owe it to people to make sure, DANG SURE, that your interpretation of what the Bible says about it is accurate.

    And be willing to consider your interpretation may be very, very wrong.


  292. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    “One Sunday, after hearing from our pastor that single women should encourage and follow appropriate initiative and leadership from single men”

    Yes, that is a standard instruction, and I suppose it is to keep the women passive so that the men who lack confidence will take initiative. And that seems to me to guarantee that the men in the singles group are going to be men who lack confidence and the women are going to be women who do not realize that they are adults. Someone else said that women are told to practice submitting while they are single. I’ve heard that one, too.


  293. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    @ ishy:
    “I’ve had guys pretend not to see me when I spoke. They’d look up at the ceiling or to the side if I said anything.”
    ++++++++++++
    ??? what was that all about? do you chalk it up to social ineptness or stemming from some kind of lower view of females?

    I’ve heard married women who said this happened to them.

    I think it may be more obvious in those cases.

    In complementarian churches, these married women say, when they go to chat with, or greet, a man at church, and their husband is with them, that the man will ignore them (the woman/wife) but shake hands with the husband and make chit chat with the husband.

    These women say it’s as though they are invisible and do not exist in such situations.

    A variation of this also happens to single adults.

    I’ve read single women (sometimes men) online who said they’ve been going to ‘Local Church on the Corner’ for years, are never greeted or included by the membership (which is predominantly married couples)…

    But, the moment their PARENTS (who are married) show up to that church as their guest, suddenly, all those same married couples make a bee-line to the new married couples (the parents) to shake hands, yak with them, make luncheon invitations, etc.

    I’ve also heard single men and women say they are ignored by their churches until they invite an opposite- gender friend as a guest to church on Sunday morning, who the church mistakes as being a new sweetie or spouse, and all the sudden, that single adult (who is usually ignored) exists and can be seen.


  294. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Max:

    “If you are led by the Holy Spirit to leave a church – if that check in your Spirit is prompting you to move along – do so. As a believer, your soul stands competent before God to move freely in His Kingdom.”
    +++++++++++++++

    i’d say intuition or even simply a feeling of discomfort, that things are off.

    i think people tend to think the Holy Spirit will feel different from what they assume are their natural senses, and so they ignore those things as suspect. and wait for some lightning bolt from God.


  295. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    i’d say intuition or even simply a feeling of discomfort, that things are off.

    I think our intuition is a gift from god. We should not discount it.


  296. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    I think there is an article on TgC website written about single women.

    That is probably their Token Article For Single Adults.

    Plug in the word “single” in about any complementarian- based site (including conservative Christian ones who claim to be all about The Nuclear Family and Family Values), and you’ll get about one or two posts. (Seriously, I’m not exaggerating.)

    Plug in the word “marriage” in a complementarian based site’s search field, and you will, in contrast, get 20 ore more PAGES of articles, 30 or so per page, about marriage.


  297. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    I had three of those “God told me” guys approach me at Liberty.

    Is there a Liberty University survivors blog? There is much that is good there, but there is also a LOT of weirdness. I have heard other first hand accounts.


  298. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    The House of Driscoll is going into its soft launch on Sunday. This means he will be having services at 9 and 10:45 am. I will be out there, probably starting around 8:45, taking a break at 9:15, and going back out between 10:15 and 10:30 for the second service. No rest for the wicked, etc.

    The “grand opening” (yes, that’s what he’s calling it) is on August 7. In his latest missive, Driscoll says, “If you want to be baptized at our grand opening please email [address redacted] to let us know.”

    0_o Really? Does anyone think that there are any unbaptized Christians attending the House of Driscoll? Inquiring minds and all that.


  299. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    i’d say intuition or even simply a feeling of discomfort, that things are off.

    Gavin de Becker, who is a threat assessment consultant, says you should not ignore those gut feelings. Your subconscious is trying to tell you something.


  300. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    I think there is an article on TgC website written about single women. I did not read it, but you might find it interesting. As you said, they don’t really have a consistent answer to the question of single women, and especially the ones who are flourishing

    Another thought. I either stumbled across a complementarian page for biblical womanhood that mentioned singles a couple weeks ago, or someone here linked to it, but….

    The article put the issue back on single women. LOL.

    Complementarians treat single women like persona- non- grata (when they’re not insulting us for being single)-

    But in this one complementarian article (I forget if it was on TGC or ‘Desiring God’ or whatever site),

    IIRC, after having spent a good long while explaining the roles of married women in marriage, the author (who I think was a man), had a small paragraph on single women.

    But he didn’t have much to say about single women, not near as much as married women.

    He floundered around and said something like, “And the older, single Christian women ought to think of how gender roles can be taught to younger women. Single adult women need to come up with a way to teach what it looks like to be a “biblical woman” as a single, and they can instruct other single women in this matter.”

    See, complementarians are happy to dwell on and think about married people and marriage constantly, but they can’t be bothered to invest that same energy or effort discussing, researching, or thinking about adult singleness.

    They fob that work on to singles and ask singles to do the heavy lifting for them. I find that insulting, in a way.

    OTOH, it may not be an altogether bad thing, because I find that a lot of married people hold stereotypes about singles who are single over the age of 25.

    They have no idea what it means to never have married and be in your 40s and older, and they make all sorts of weird or derogatory assumptions.

    So I can see how there may be advantages to having honest to goodness singles write blog post about singleness, rather than have some man who is like 65 years old, who’s been married for two decades, write about what it’s like to be a 40 year old single woman.


  301. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Plug in the word “single” in about any complementarian- based site

    I got a bunch, but half of them were about being a ‘single issue’ voter or something else random…


  302. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:

    Oh! And the other thing was that a number of the articles seemed to be about or written bythose with same sex attractions.


  303. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    The toxic nature of complementarianism can be attributed to the fact that it is a branch off of the poisonous tree of authoritarianism. There are many camps represented in CBMW, i.e. Patterson and Mohler disagree on much, but authoritarianism is a commonality that they share.


  304. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lowlandseer wrote:

    Here is a view of a Complementarian single woman.

    Oh joy. “It’s also for me as a single woman. It helps me to have a correct view of how I am to personally submit to Christ as the supreme authority in my life. Christ is Lord. I am his servant.”

    Pst. Your husband is not Christ. That was a metaphor. Christ being Lord does not mean your husband is lord. We are all to be servants, not just women.

    FW Rez wrote:

    The toxic nature of complementarianism can be attributed to the fact that it is a branch off of the poisonous tree of authoritarianism.

    Yes. Submit, Submit, Submit. That’s all women are allowed to hear.


  305. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ mot:
    mot wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/07/20/god-might-not-want-a-woman-to-be-president-some-religious-conservatives-say/
    This one’s a doozy. Deborah – ” …. it was shameful for her to have to step up and lead Israel when the men faltered.”
    Owen is so wrong on this!

    I think if he said that God would not want a complementarian woman as president he would be correct. I would not vote for one either because I would be afraid she would go with her husband’s wishes over the country’s.


  306. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    There was one on C”B”MW I think that discussed hospitality for single women and it was basically ‘babysit for your married friends’.

    Yes, how could I forget this one.

    Or, maybe it’s a variation on their teaching of, “While you are single, practice being a future submissive help meet to a future husband, by being a doormat to your male friends, male bosses, and male relatives in your single status.”

    -It’s like, “practice being married Susie Homemaker now, while you are single, by reading Martha Stewart decor books, providing free babysitting for Christian married couples, etc.”

    I once saw an article by a married Christian woman on a Christian magazine site that looked promising. I clicked on it. The introduction talked about how churches should do more to recognize single adults, and I was cheering her on, until I kept reading.

    As her article went along, the married lady who wrote it told Christian singles that they are very valuable to the church – as her free baby sitters.

    She said since her married Christian friends are too busy with their own families to help her, and her mother lives 2,00 miles away, the singles at her church could really be a service to her by babysitting her kids every week for free.

    I wanted to throw my monitor into a lake after reading her article. It was that bad.

    It started out like she was going to champion singles, but it turned into a “the only value singles have is doing favors for married couples, especially for me, because I am so worn out being a parent” thing.
    -Which singles hear all the time in Christian books, blogs, and conferences anyway.


  307. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Harley wrote:

    Velour – thanks for the comments. I don’t know why there is a Canadian flag with my name. I am born and raised in the USA. I live in Tyler, Tx, which is east of Dallas, TX. I am still having rough days pain wise. I will update on my visit with my doctor later this morning. I am thankful my husband and I are egalitarians. Some of the thing I tell him about the comp people totally astound him.

    First, I’m so sorry you’re in so much pain and the foot(feet?) problems. I fell to sleep praying for you last night and you were on my lips the first thing this morning.

    I’m glad you have a good husband who is astounded by this Comp teaching.

    That is curious that you’re in Texas and that a Canadian flag shows up next to your name, not a U.S. flag.

    Hugs.


  308. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    i’d say intuition or even simply a feeling of discomfort, that things are off.
    Gavin de Becker, who is a threat assessment consultant, says you should not ignore those gut feelings. Your subconscious is trying to tell you something.

    Spot on.

    He also wrote in the Gift of Fear that if you don’t know what to do (and sometimes we waffle and are confused by a situation) stop and say: “Gut, what should I do?”

    That simple sentence has helped me in one very dangerous situation and I think it saved my life.


  309. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ mirele:

    Is it bad that I have this fear of my atheist brother who lives in Phoenix would stumble into Mark’s church and become a Driscollite instead of an atheist. My brother has been much nicer since he rejected the Christianity of our youth. He is even a Calvin college graduate. So much for secular colleges turning people away from God.


  310. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    I do not remember Liquinet, but I certainly do remember Aquanet. Aerosol marine varnish.
    I still keep a can of Aquanet around for dealing with bees and wasps that stray in the house. It’s non-toxic to cats and immobilizes the critters nearly instantaneously.

    It did the same thing to Annette Funicello’s hair during her “Beach Blanket Bingo” movie days.

    I read this interview she gave once where she said if you observe her hair in the beach scenes, even though the wind is making people’s towels and clothing waft around, not a single hair on her head moves.

    She said they would blast her hair in tons of hairspray before filming each scene.


  311. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    FW Rez wrote:

    Is there a Liberty University survivors blog? There is much that is good there, but there is also a LOT of weirdness. I have heard other first hand accounts.

    There is, but it’s run by guys whose primary interest is how bad at sports LU is.


  312. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism. I say it’s the other way around. What is a single woman to do who wants babies but not be subject to anyone but Christ. She has a baby anyway without getting married.


  313. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    That is curious that you’re in Texas and that a Canadian flag shows up next to your name, not a U.S. flag.

    Renaming local amusement park: “Seven Flags over Texas”.


  314. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism.

    If by that they mean that naturally conservative folks go to a liberal church, just to get away from the overbearing anti-female stance? Sure. Reading here, I’ve honestly began to feel that a liberal church is the only safe oppression free place for a woman.


  315. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:

    The church kitchen is another go-to they have for all women, especially singles. Either stick you in the nursery or on meal clean up or meal prep in the kitchen area.


  316. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism

    Liberalism is the boogeyman card that FUNDAMENTALIST have played for a long time now.


  317. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    You know, I ran into this on Facebook yesterday, where some “Christians” were all but saying that marriage and children were the default for women. I quoted 1 Corinthians 7:8: “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.”
    Do people just not read their Bibles, or what?

    That is when 99% of Christians who promote ‘Motherhood And Marriage’ as being the only acceptable avenues for women will say singleness is a rare calling and gift because….

    God wants most people to marry, because look, most people do end up married, very few stay single.

    The problem with that thinking is
    1. The Bible says no such thing and
    2. since singles are greater in number than married people now, you can turn their reasoning back on them to say God must now want and expect most people to stay single, since, look, most people are single these days.


  318. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ mot:

    “we are questioning as whether it is God’s will for a woman to lead the nation.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    actually, no one is quoted as having stated exactly this. this statement above is Bob Allan’s paraphase.

    This is the Owen quote: “A good number of evangelicals would probably prefer to see men lead in the political arena, and I would be one of them,” Strachan said. “Many evangelicals would say that men need to be the ones who step up and take responsibility, not simply for the home and the church, but also for the community.”

    i get the impression of a carefully planned publicity campaign.

    Owen’s statement comes across as sort of benign (except we know what he really thinks, because of his more dogmatic statements). To woo people, instead of repel or polarize.

    Bob Allan’s paraphrase is still on the nuanced side, but it betrays more. it goes farther, bringing God’s will into the equation. (which is a big leap — i think even the Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood made an allowance for Margaret Thatcher)

    my impression is that ‘they’ are canvassing things, positing ideas here & there in varying degrees of strength, scattered enough to make it look like it is NOT a deliberate, calculated campaign.

    my impression is that ‘they’ are launching something which will ultimately be even further to the right of Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood. Separating out soft comp from what is essentially patriarchy — & the latter will be the clarified platform.


  319. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    If by that they mean that naturally conservative folks go to a liberal church, just to get away from the overbearing anti-female stance? Sure. Reading here, I’ve honestly began to feel that a liberal church is the only safe oppression free place for a woman.

    I believe I am a conservative Christian, but in the SBC world because of my views on Women in Ministry I would be labeled a liberal.


  320. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lowlandseer:

    “At the end of the day, my life is about bringing glory to God. I believe I am able to do this best by living, in a comprehensive and joyful way, according to my complementarian convictions.”

    She is free to do this. But there is nothing in Scripture that says I need to adhere to “complementarian” ways.


  321. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    my impression is that ‘they’ are launching something which will ultimately be even further to the right of Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood.

    Including FGM, burqa, locked harems, and honor killings?


  322. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    I believe I am a conservative Christian, but in the SBC world because of my views on Women in Ministry I would be labeled a liberal.

    Which is sort of ‘no true scotsman’ deal.

    I will also say, that right now the traditional churches tend to be more liberal. Which seems weird to say, but if you like hymns you might find yourself at a liberal church that ordains women.


  323. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lea:

    Yeah, complementarians view singleness as a time of practice for women to learn how to submit one day to a husband.

    Singleness is viewed as a holding pattern or practice run.

    You and your singleness are not valued in and of themselves, nor are you taught to leverage your single years for anything past marriage practice. It seems rather wasteful.


  324. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism

    Liberalism is the boogeyman card that FUNDAMENTALIST have played for a long time now.

    In the Sixties/Seventies, “Tortured for Christ” Wurmbrand had a tag line “Communists always denounce their opposition as Fascists”.

    To which I added the corollary “…and Fascists always denounce their opposition as Communists.”


  325. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism.

    They are a fine bunch to be talking about slippery slopes! New Calvinist “hills to die on” are about as slippery as you can find!


  326. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism

    Liberalism is the boogeyman card that FUNDAMENTALIST have played for a long time now.

    Even before the HOMOSEXUALITY card?


  327. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Liberalism is the boogeyman card that FUNDAMENTALIST have played for a long time now.

    Anything that doesn’t pass through a Calvinist filter is liberal, which is fundamentally wrong.


  328. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    It started out like she was going to champion singles, but it turned into a “the only value singles have is doing favors for married couples, especially for me, because I am so worn out being a parent” thing.
    -Which singles hear all the time in Christian books, blogs, and conferences anyway.

    Which is why Christians are so desperate to get married. (Including lotsa underhanded pressure tactics.) Once you say “I Do”, you get to sit at the Grown-Ups table with the other Grown-Ups and those Singles have to serve YOU.


  329. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    The “grand opening” (yes, that’s what he’s calling it) is on August 7. In his latest missive, Driscoll says, “If you want to be baptized at our grand opening please email [address redacted] to let us know.”

    “If not, we’ll send in the shills to guilt you. Just like Elevation.”


  330. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:
    Love it! Thanks Gram3


  331. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    In complementarian churches, these married women say, when they go to chat with, or greet, a man at church, and their husband is with them, that the man will ignore them (the woman/wife) but shake hands with the husband and make chit chat with the husband.

    These women say it’s as though they are invisible and do not exist in such situations.

    Isn’t that the idea behind the burqa?


  332. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    I quoted 1 Corinthians 7:8: “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.”

    Do people just not read their Bibles, or what?

    My guess is that their New Testament only has about 20 verses, because those are the only ones they talk about.

    Just like that Oldies station (“Sixties Music”) on my shop’s PA system years ago:
    Playlist of 20 songs, repeated over and over and over and over.
    10 were “Dope is Groovy!” and the other 10 were “Get Out Of VIETNAAAAM!”
    We has an employee mutiny within the week.


  333. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    I’d also add childless or child-free women to that list.
    Complementarians not only stress wifehood for women, but they equally promote motherhood (as being a woman’s only Godly purpose or calling in life).

    It’s called “Bedroom Evangelism.”
    AKA “Outbreed the Heathen.” (Very Darwinist, actually…)

    I keep seeing the Uruk-spawning pits beneath Isengard.


  334. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lowlandseer:

    https://9marks.org/article/complementarianism-the-single-woman/

    I’m skimming it. Nothing really there of substance for single women.

    Talks about how comps feel women should not lead men in church, and she carries this mindset into her career.

    It’s a variation on the “use your single days (or your career with your male boss) as Practice for one day submitting to a future husband” type thing.

    The Bible does not tell single women to submit unilaterally to every man on the planet, not a boss or anyone else, so she is allowing her cultural views (which have been tainted by gender comp) to color how she lives life and views relationships.

    She says:

    Submission means I do them anyway because I am called to obey my authority. This is an unpopular mindset, but I think it is a modern application of biblical texts like Colossians 3:22 and Ephesians 6:5.

    In this regard, of course, men in the workplace are no different.

    But those verses do not apply to women only.

    Men are also told in Romans in the New Testament that the governing authorities are put in place by God above them as well, not just above women.

    If you are a man with a job, you too are under your male boss’s (or woman boss’s) authority.

    She says,

    Lastly, complementarianism has even shaped how I view dating. For me, dating must always be marriage-focused. I don’t date just to date.

    If there’s no possibility of future marriage, I will not date someone or continue dating someone. Of course, being complementarian means I view marriage as a covenant in which the husband is the head and the wife submits to him as the head.

    [more marriage talk, here, marriage marriage marriage, what male headship looks like in marriage discussion by her, etc]

    You don’t have to be a complementarian to hold the view that dating can be more than dating, but have marriage in view.

    The rest of her page is more of, “practice deferring to men while you are single so you can be great at it when married one say.”

    She says,

    Therefore, I look for these characteristics in a potential husband.

    …I need to be self-reflective in determining if I am capable of being a godly wife,

    There we are again. Singleness just means Practice For Being Married Some Day.

    What if you never marry, lady author? I’m in my 40s and still not married.

    There is nothing in comp about singleness in and of itself, it’s all geared with this assumption that being single is just a launching ground for marriage.

    She ends on this score:

    Complementarianism has greatly influenced how I live my life as a single. I have come to understand it’s not simply for those who are married. It’s for everyone. Man. Woman. Single.

    But she says that after spending 99% of the page describing what being a submissive doormat to a husband would look like, and how biblical and godly it is for a woman to be a submissive doormat.

    Very little in her essay on being single and living life as single, except for the 1% bit where she goes on about practicing submission to a male boss in a job.


  335. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    They never stop to ask why it is they think that God is pleased by someone staying in an abusive marriage and, at the same time, keeping kids in an abusive household.

    The abuser is God?


  336. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    ‘another Gospel’

    There’s a lot of that going on in the American church! Just this morning, I heard a celebrity talk about her late husband in Heaven, even though there was no evidence he lived a life of faith. Lodged somewhere between a “A loving God takes everyone to Heaven” and “A sovereign God takes the chosen to Heaven” is the simple Gospel truth … that a loving, sovereign God chooses those who choose Jesus by their free will to inherit eternal life.


  337. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    The “grand opening” (yes, that’s what he’s calling it) is on August 7. In his latest missive, Driscoll says, “If you want to be baptized at our grand opening please email [address redacted] to let us know.”

    That is truly sickening. IMO it demonstrates what Driscoll has always been about–Driscoll. Come to our Grand Opening and get baptized into the Driscoll cult.

    If I have not said so before, I really appreciate your posts on Scientology. I had no idea. No idea at all.


  338. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Oh! And the other thing was that a number of the articles seemed to be about or written bythose with same sex attractions.

    Yes, if and when conservative Christian sites discuss adult single celibacy, 99% of the time, it’s about Lesbians or Homosexuals. They never discuss this stuff in regards to HETERO adults.


  339. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Yes. Submit, Submit, Submit. That’s all women are allowed to hear.

    Islam is also keen on Submit Submit Submit.

    Funny that some Christians don’t mind mirroring Islam concerning women and gender topics.


  340. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    labeled a liberal

    You would only be a liberal if you prayed something like “Lord, please break the laws of the universe for my convenience.”


  341. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism.

    Thought-stopping appeal to fear and also an appeal to the desire of conservatives to maintain the authority of the Bible. Most of all it is a tip-off to the weakness of their argument. If your argument and evidence are sound, you don’t need to employ tactics like this. (generic you intended)


  342. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism. I say it’s the other way around. What is a single woman to do who wants babies but not be subject to anyone but Christ. She has a baby anyway without getting married.

    Something like that was discussed in the book “Quitting Church” So many single Christian women wanted to get married to Christian men, but they can’t find one to marry. But they want kids.

    So many of them have gone to those clinics and were impregnated by donor sperm. They are raising kids single.

    This gets back to how a lot of Christians refuse to help singles who want to be married to get married.

    Singles are told, ‘tough luck, you are on your own, or go try a dating sites’ (and dating sites don’t work for everyone).

    If married Christians would stop acting like human intervention is not necessary in getting men and women paired up, they could help single women (who wanted the help) to get married and then have a kid with a spouse.


  343. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Daisy:

    Tim Fall has written about the Comp view of dating:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/09/22/tim-fall-critiques-owen-strachans-new-dateship-second-verse-same-as-the-first/

    Tim Fall also has some other clear-headed articles on his blogs about the topic, a refreshing change from the Comp views of dating.

    https://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/worst-dating-advice-ever/

    Tim Fall’s dating advice:
    If I were to give dating advice, it would look like this:

    1. Hang out with friends you like and who like you back.

    2. Maybe you’ll start feeling attracted to one of them, maybe you won’t.

    3. Maybe one of them will start feeling attracted to you, and you either will feel the same or you won’t.

    4. If you both feel the same type of attraction, spend some time together in ways that you both feel comfortable.

    5. Don’t worry about being wild or confident or who opens the ketchup bottle.

    6. Do it all for the glory of God. (1 Corinthians 10:31.)


  344. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    ‘another Gospel’

    There’s a lot of that going on in the American church! Just this morning, I heard a celebrity talk about her late husband in Heaven, even though there was no evidence he lived a life of faith. Lodged somewhere between a “A loving God takes everyone to Heaven” and “A sovereign God takes the chosen to Heaven” is the simple Gospel truth … that a loving, sovereign God chooses those who choose Jesus by their free will to inherit eternal life.

    I come from something different in the way of seeing the parameters of the mystery of our salvation in Christ. I do know that the one place we all arrive at in agreement is this: if someone is saved, it is Our Lord Himself Who does the saving.

    It’s the ‘how’ He does this that varies in our important diverse opinions of soteriology.


  345. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    my impression is that ‘they’ are launching something which will ultimately be even further to the right of Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood. Separating out soft comp from what is essentially patriarchy — & the latter will be the clarified platform.

    That is a possibility for the Wares and Owens. I think Mohler’s squishy statement about “tendency” rather than absolute “Role” shows that he is positioning to be the voice of moderation, despite his track record of promoting Female Subordinationism. He is, above all, a politician. There, I said it. Politicians look after their own interests while convincing their constituency (whatever flavor it is) that the politician is looking out for the constituency’s interests.

    I wonder when/if CBMW will leave or be pushed out of the nest at SBTS.


  346. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Which seems weird to say, but if you like hymns you might find yourself at a liberal church that ordains women.

    🙂


  347. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    If I have not said so before, I really appreciate your posts on Scientology. I had no idea. No idea at all.

    There are (or used to be) a few really good web sites exposing

    Scientology. One of them is Operation Clam Bake. You can spend HOURS on that site reading reading reading about the insanity of Scientology.
    http://www.xenu.net/

    There was another really good site about Scientology, but I can’t remember what it was called.


  348. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    New Calvinist “hills to die on”

    Well, if they continue fighting to the death on the hill of Female Subordinationism being a Gospel imperative (can you hear me, Greg Gilbert?), then that may be the hill on which the Calvinista movement dies.


  349. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Patti wrote:
    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism.
    If by that they mean that naturally conservative folks go to a liberal church, just to get away from the overbearing anti-female stance? Sure. Reading here, I’ve honestly began to feel that a liberal church is the only safe oppression free place for a woman.

    And maybe for men too.

    A man who posts here (maybe it was LawProf) found that a more liberal denominational church had a hands off policy when it came to their Bible study. They were able to meet, including with fellow conservatives, and exchange ideas and had no church leaders bothering them.


  350. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Yes, if and when conservative Christian sites discuss adult single celibacy, 99% of the time, it’s about Lesbians or Homosexuals. They never discuss this stuff in regards to HETERO adults.

    Well, one of the article seemed to about that, to be fair, but it was very rambly. I guess the idea is that everyone else will be getting married eventually?

    I was also very weirded out by the idea that people in a relationship who were having sex were in an ‘illicit’ relationship, simply because of that. They specifically said something about Christian women and non-Christian men and that it was a huge problem in their church? That’s sort of strange to me.


  351. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    Patti wrote:
    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism.
    Max: They are a fine bunch to be talking about slippery slopes! New Calvinist “hills to die on” are about as slippery as you can find!

    They wanna talk about slippery slopes? Complementarianism is a slippery slope into slavery!


  352. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The abuser is God?

    That would seem to be an implication to me of the permanence view, if I am understanding you correctly. Personally, I think more highly of God’s character *because* his prophet declares that God hates the men abusing their power to divorce their wives at will.


  353. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Personally, I think more highly of God’s character *because* his prophet declares that God hates the men abusing their power to divorce their wives at will.

    It’s pretty gross that they’ve turned around a passage about protecting women from ill use by men into one that SUPPORTS just that.


  354. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Christiane wrote:

    diverse opinions of soteriology

    That is the dilemma of the current theo-political struggle in the Southern Baptist Convention. Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist views of God’s plan of salvation are distinctly different. The SBC is comprised primarily of non-Calvinists who hold belief and practice contrary to reformed tenets. With the proliferation of New Calvinism in SBC ranks, the denomination is faced with “Can two diverse soteriologies co-exist in a single denomination going forward?” Many don’t think so and are exiting the SBC to affiliate with other “whosoever will” groups or join the “done” ranks (some claim that the annual 200,000 decline in SBC members in recent years are due to the unchecked New Calvinist movement). While other reformed beliefs are of concern here (complementarianism, plurality of elders governance, etc.), I believe the soteriological divide and its implications on evangelism and missions to be the biggest driver re: the number of folks bailing out of SBC.


  355. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ brian:
    Something this beautiful, and this uplifting is never out of place


  356. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    They specifically said something about Christian women and non-Christian men and that it was a huge problem in their church? That’s sort of strange to me.

    Christians pressure Christian singles to date and marry only other Christians. (The “be equally yoked” rule.)

    The problem is that in many denominations and churches, the Christian single women vastly out-number the Christian single men, leaving a lot of women with feeling their only option is to date and marry NON-Christian men, if they want to marry at all.

    If not, they may end up like me, still waiting for Christian Prince Charming in their 40s.

    Upon reflection (as a single who always wanted to be married), I would rather have married a decent, caring atheist man when in my 20s or 30s, than still be single in my 40s, having waited for Christian Mr Right.

    This is what a lot of churches don’t deal with or face.


  357. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    That is the dilemma of the current theo-political struggle in the Southern Baptist Convention. Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist views of God’s plan of salvation are distinctly different. The SBC is comprised primarily of non-Calvinists who hold belief and practice contrary to reformed tenets. With the proliferation of New Calvinism in SBC ranks, the denomination is faced with “Can two diverse soteriologies co-exist in a single denomination

    From what I’ve read, I get the feeling that, by and large, Cavinists want the SBC to stay together, while the “whosoever wills” want a split. Hmmm……


  358. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Female Subordinationism … may be the hill on which the Calvinista movement dies.

    I suspect that New Calvinist leaders are wishing now that they had journeyed around this mountain for a while, until the reformed movement had arrived at its primary destination. FS is drawing too much attention on the totality of the new reformation now and may very well derail their journey. New Calvinism’s who’s-who are trying to balance defending each other, while keeping their own nose from getting too bloody.


  359. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    i think people tend to think the Holy Spirit will feel different from what they assume are their natural senses, and so they ignore those things as suspect. and wait for some lightning bolt from God.

    This is taught in many brands of fundagelicalism, that you can’t trust your ‘feelings’ and that it’s not about ‘feelings’. It is also taught that the ‘natural senses’ are of the ‘natural man’ and cannot be trusted. How many times have we all heard the old clobber chestnut ‘we walk by faith and not by sight’?
    Grain of truth? Yes. But when a grain of truth is allowed to grow into a hurtling asteroid, there’s danger.


  360. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Something like that was discussed in the book “Quitting Church” So many single Christian women wanted to get married to Christian men, but they can’t find one to marry. But they want kids.
    So many of them have gone to those clinics and were impregnated by donor sperm. They are raising kids single.

    With all of the foster children in need of adoption, and states taking care of fees, why didn’t these Christian women adopt children?

    A dear Christian friend who died a couple of years ago was divorced, raised two biological children, and was a foster mom even as a single mom. She adopted one of her foster children, a boy. He’s now in college.

    Her bio kids (son and daughter) said that her adopted son shares more personality traits with her than they do! Sweet.


  361. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    From what I’ve read, I get the feeling that, by and large, Cavinists want the SBC to stay together, while the “whosoever wills” want a split. Hmmm……

    Well, sure they do! Who do you think is financing the tremendous assets they have taken over (seminaries, publishing house, mission agencies)?! The millions of “whosoever wills”! Their cry for unity is a selfish one.


  362. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    There was another really good site about Scientology, but I can’t remember what it was called.

    Tony Ortega (former editor of the Village Voice) does daily reporting on all things Scientological at http://www.tonyortega.org.

    Recent (this week) articles include: how a federal judge included letters from ex-Scientologists in the record in the Garcia case (important to us here because of the contract requiring the Garcias to go through arbitration to get their money back), Phil and Willie getting a call from their disconnected daughter Emily telling them she’d be willing to talk to them, if they were willing to drop their anti-Scientology crusade (and get rid of that billboard!), Scientology involved in a gang summit in LA, and sentencing of an ex-Sea Org member and son of a prominent Scientologist for involvement in smuggling objects made of ivory, coral and rhino horn.

    Scientology has its fingers in so, so many pies. I have often said one could teach a good chunk of the law school curriculum, from contracts to First Amendment law, just based on the shenanigans of Scientology and Scientologists.


  363. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    It’s pretty gross that they’ve turned around a passage about protecting women from ill use by men into one that SUPPORTS just that.

    If you stop at the plain reading of “God hates divorce” and don’t ask any more questions about why, then you get the idea that God’s main point is Do Not Divorce.

    That is why I say that a big problem for the non-hierarchical complementarians is to explain Paul’s apparent rationale for his apparent ban on women teaching authoritatively which arises from a Plain Reading. Because the Man was created first? Because the woman was deceived? That is a non-sequitur, as far as I can see.

    Really, they have much the same problem of drawing bright lines as the Female Subordinationists do. The PCA is divided over female deacons, so the solution is to have non-ordained women perform similar functions as *ordained* male deacons. The bright line of ordination seems to solve the problem, but does it really? I don’t think so because ordination is never actually…ordained in the text.


  364. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    elastigirl wrote:

    i mentioned some time ago that in my perusing the ‘about me’ sections of a number of blogs, etc. belonging to christian men, in their summaries of favorite things it seemed that “Sense & Sensibility” showed up often amongst favorite movies. it was the the commonality that was most striking.

    That is an interesting observation, elastigirl. Especially seeing that ‘In modernizing the script for a contemporary audience, Thompson emphasizes the inherently feminist sentiments of Austen’s novel.’ http://www.jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol32no1/stovel.html. And neither male lead is a particularly strong character unlike the two sisters.

    Be that as it may, it was a delightful film and I have actually been meaning to rent it to watch again.


  365. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    The PCA is divided over female deacons

    I never realized growing up that there is a female deacon in the bible…given that, why would they be excluded exactly?


  366. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    My husband submitted today:
    With my mono induced Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I have good streaks and bad streaks. Everything I had to do, including the stress, while my husband was recovering from his injuries really drained me. Fruit started coming in season before hubby had the wires taken out of his mouth ….. then the garden came in.
    I’ve done some serious canning this week. I canned yesterday, and by the time I made supper last night and we ate, I had wall to wall dirty dishes: 2 canners, big pots, colanders, mixing bowls, and so on. I woke up about 8 this morning. It took all I had to get out of bed and get dressed – I took some pain meds, laid down on the sofa, and slept until 11. Between 8 and 11, hubby washed all of the dishes – he even rinsed the soap bubbles off! That’s what I call a perfect example of “Soap Bubbles Submission”!

    PS: don’t worry ’bout me. I’ll bounce back.


  367. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Estelle wrote:

    And neither male lead is a particularly strong character unlike the two sisters.

    I mentioned above, I wonder if this has to do with the dashing handsome guy being ultimately rejected in favor of the older, established guy?

    Nancy2 wrote:

    PS: don’t worry ’bout me. I’ll bounce back.

    Good to hear it!


  368. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    With all of the foster children in need of adoption, and states taking care of fees, why didn’t these Christian women adopt children?

    Not MY DNA?


  369. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Yes, if and when conservative Christian sites discuss adult single celibacy, 99% of the time, it’s about Lesbians or Homosexuals. They never discuss this stuff in regards to HETERO adults.

    They say sex makes people stupid (and we’ve all encountered some brain-dead examples).
    Well, homosex makes people crazy.

    Just the word “homosexual” shuts down every neuron above the Christianese brainstem and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag in front of what’s left.


  370. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    There are (or used to be) a few really good web sites exposing Scientology. One of them is Operation Clam Bake. You can spend HOURS on that site reading reading reading about the insanity of Scientology.
    http://www.xenu.net/

    Ah, Operation Clam Bake.
    Enturbulating Teegeeack for the past 76 million years.
    ELRON IS XENU!


  371. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    The PCA is divided over female deacons
    I never realized growing up that there is a female deacon in the bible…given that, why would they be excluded exactly?

    In most of the modern translations they translate Phoebe as a “servant”, because that solves the problem. Even though the Greek word they translate “deacon” for men is exactly the same.


  372. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:

    Kind of like that whole ‘older woman’ who are supposed to be teaching the younger being kind of the same word for elder (presbyteryish) deal? Granted I didn’t take greek, but I thought that was interesting…


  373. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Kind of like that whole ‘older woman’ who are supposed to be teaching the younger being kind of the same word for elder (presbyteryish) deal? Granted I didn’t take greek, but I thought that was interesting…

    I haven’t studied that one. I’ll go look at it now.


  374. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    My egalitarian husband myself are sitting around at home after going to see my foot doctor. I also agree with the statement, that sometimes you go with your gut feeling on things, or the discernment that God gives you in certain situations. I have walked out on several church services where I felt like things were wrong. That things were “being hyped” up. When my spirit felt ill at ease in a church service. I knew that to stay in a situation where to remain would only harm my spiritual life, it was best go go. I have 2 choices to make about my foot. One is for fusion of 2 bones, and the other is a type of infrared therapy. I am praying about this, and thanks to Velour, and others who are praying with me. I can’t explain what reading this blog does for me. It lifts me up. It makes me understand others situations. It helps to see situations that I don’t want to get into. Thanks to all.


  375. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    In most of the modern translations they translate Phoebe as a “servant”

    Yeah, Phoebe was probably the director of kitchen ministries ….. Bet she really knew how to lay out a fellowship meal!


  376. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Harley wrote:

    I felt like things were wrong. That things were “being hyped” up. When my spirit felt ill at ease in a church service.

    That’s where I am now with our current church.
    I wish you discernment with the decision you need to make concerning your foot.


  377. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    I never realized growing up that there is a female deacon in the bible…given that, why would they be excluded exactly?

    That is a very good question! My opinion is that it is primarily tradition and the idea of ordained church officers. Ordination confers authority and authority cannot be exercised by a female in the church. That runs up against some very practical problems such as how does a male deacon appropriately minister to a large group of single women, widows, and divorcees?

    “Deaconess” has been taken as wife of a deacon just like “older woman” in the Bible means an older woman while “older man” means an ordained elder. It happens when one picks and chooses their interpretive method to fit a pre-determined and necessary conclusion.


  378. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    @ ishy:

    Kind of like that whole ‘older woman’ who are supposed to be teaching the younger being kind of the same word for elder (presbyteryish) deal? Granted I didn’t take greek, but I thought that was interesting…

    Sigh. I just replied to you with this very example, but you beat me to it.


  379. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    With all of the foster children in need of adoption, and states taking care of fees, why didn’t these Christian women adopt children?

    I dunno. I can only speculate that women who want children believe they will feel most mother-like if they carry the baby in their own body and give birth?

    I never had a strong urge to have kids myself, so I cannot relate to this wanting kids thing too much, so I can only guess.

    The woman who wrote the ‘Quitting Church’ book adopted a child.


  380. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    The PCA is divided over female deacons

    I never realized growing up that there is a female deacon in the bible…given that, why would they be excluded exactly?

    According to my church’s official history, Deaconesses were known for the first couple centuries, but the practice of ordaining Deaconesses died out after that; even (male) Deacon narrowed into a pre-ordainment rank for priests by the Middle Ages.

    Permanent Deacons (deacons in their own right, not priest-in-training) were reinstated some time after Vatican II. A deacon is the lowest rank of clergy and can perform all sacraments except for Mass and Confession. They are sort-of celibate; like Eastern Rite clergy, a married man can be ordained but an ordained man cannot marry after his ordainment.

    Though all Permanent Deacons are male, Pope Francis has spoken about ordaining women as Permanent Deaconesses, though going through Church bureaucracy and councils could take some time.


  381. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    In most of the modern translations they translate Phoebe as a “servant”, because that solves the problem. Even though the Greek word they translate “deacon” for men is exactly the same.

    And don’t forget Junia (NOT “Junias”), mentioned in one of Paul’s Epistles as an “Apostle” in her own right.

    Even St John Chrystosom stood up for Junia as being a female Apostle. Considering JC was infamous for a LOW opinion of women (even by the standard of his time), that’s saying something.


  382. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Kind of like that whole ‘older woman’ who are supposed to be teaching the younger being kind of the same word for elder (presbyteryish) deal? Granted I didn’t take greek, but I thought that was interesting…

    Color me so very disappointed with modern translators. It is indeed the same word. You can apply it to both men and women.

    This article from Charisma magazine is interesting: http://www.charismamag.com/life/women/20568-can-women-be-elders-in-the-church-or-not


  383. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    Scientology has its fingers in so, so many pies. I have often said one could teach a good chunk of the law school curriculum, from contracts to First Amendment law, just based on the shenanigans of Scientology and Scientologists.

    And Mega/Gigapastors mouths water at the thought of getting Scientology’s special treatment from the IRS. From Operation Clambake:

    The Wall Street Journal reported that:

    “The Church of Scientology paid the Internal Revenue Service $12.5 million as part of a settlement of a long-standing dispute with the tax agency. Details of the 1993 settlement, which helped secure the tax-exempt status of the main Scientology church, previously had not been released. The details included the church’s agreement to drop thousands of lawsuits against the IRS and to stop assisting others in other lawsuits against the agency based on claims before the Oct. 1, 1993, settlement date. The IRS canceled payroll taxes and penalties it had assessed against certain church entities and seven officials, and dropped audits of 13 Scientology organizations. The 1993 agreement ended a struggle that began in 1967, when the IRS argued that the main Scientology church should lose its tax-exempt status because it was a for-profit business that enriched church officials.”70 (Emphasis added.)

    It is further reported that Scientology used, among other tactics, private investigators to pressure and harass certain IRS employees, including the Commissioner, until the IRS capitulated.71

    “One of the biggest things that happens to people who stand up to Scientology is their pets start dying. Their animals disappear or die. It was a pattern throughout the IRS investigation. Those IRS employees being “investigated” by Scientology private investigators had problems with their pets.”72

    Don’t Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Cee Jay the HUMBLE, Star Scott, Got Hard, Douggie ESQUIRE, the Jerk With The Kirk in Moscow, and all the corrupt MenaGAWD featured here at TWW wish they had THAT kind of clout? That THEY could be Elron Hubbard or David Miscavage? That THEIR YRR faithful could be the next Sea Org and GO? That THEIR Teen Interns (with looooong… waaaaaavy… haaaaair…) could be the CMO? That their Org could be the next Scientology?


  384. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Sigh. I just replied to you with this very example, but you beat me to it.

    Ha! Well I probably learned it here from ya’ll.

    ishy wrote:

    Color me so very disappointed with modern translators. It is indeed the same word.

    It is really rather shocking. Why did we have only male deacons growing up? Why do so many only have male elders when they may very well have had women in that role in the earliest of churches? Why in modern times are people saying things that my favorite 17/1800s british authors thought were ridiculous?

    Ugh.


  385. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    ad hockiness

    Oh how I love this. So when God gets mad, does he hit us first with the Tampa Bay Lightning and then consign us for all eternity to the Calgary Flames? 🙂


  386. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:

    I’m sorry you are so wiped out Nancy2. I’m glad you got some rest and your husband did the dishes.

    Folks: Please add Nancy2 to your prayer list.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour


  387. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    With all of the foster children in need of adoption, and states taking care of fees, why didn’t these Christian women adopt children?
    I dunno. I can only speculate that women who want children believe they will feel most mother-like if they carry the baby in their own body and give birth?
    I never had a strong urge to have kids myself, so I cannot relate to this wanting kids thing too much, so I can only guess.
    The woman who wrote the ‘Quitting Church’ book adopted a child.

    Thanks for explaining that, Daisy.


  388. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patti wrote:

    CBMW says that egalitarianism is a slippery slope into liberalism. I say it’s the other way around. What is a single woman to do who wants babies but not be subject to anyone but Christ. She has a baby anyway without getting married.

    If that’s what they believe than by all means they should make sure at the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood that NO woman in their family votes in any election.

    I grew up with elderly women in my family who worked VERY hard to get the 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution passed (womens’ right to vote). The women in my family told us stories about what it was like to be in graduate school in university and to not have the right to vote.

    They are such ingrates and hypocrities over there at CBMW, whining and complaining about “liberals”, meanwhile using the freedoms that liberals (for their times) got us.


  389. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    PS: don’t worry ’bout me. I’ll bounce back.

    Hope you feel better soon. Sounds like rest is the ticket.


  390. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    With all of the foster children in need of adoption, and states taking care of fees, why didn’t these Christian women adopt children?
    Not MY DNA?

    Yes, I’ve heard that DNA argument.

    I guess these single Christians can’t get married either. They’d be marrying someone who – gasp – doesn’t share their DNA. And that couldn’t possibly work out, could it?


  391. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    In most of the modern translations they translate Phoebe as a “servant”, because that solves the problem. Even though the Greek word they translate “deacon” for men is exactly the same.
    ————
    And don’t forget Junia (NOT “Junias”), mentioned in one of Paul’s Epistles as an “Apostle” in her own right.

    Will A Truly Honest Bible Translation for Women Ever Be Made (part 1 of 2 part series)
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/will-truly-honest-bible-translation-women-ever-be-made


  392. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Velour:

    I think foster care is a sort of a different thing altogether. I didn’t think singles could foster, but maybe that’s wrong. Could be a perception thing. I’ve also heard of people fostering and then trying to adopt and not being able to.


  393. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I think foster care is a sort of a different thing altogether. I didn’t think singles could foster, but maybe that’s wrong. Could be a perception thing. I’ve also heard of people fostering and then trying to adopt and not being able to.

    Times have,thankfully, changed from the old days and singles can be foster parents.
    Here’s the national website about foster care: http://www.adoptuskids.org/for-families/who-can-foster-and-adopt

    I’m in CA and know single foster parents who do an awesome job. I know of others
    in other states as well who do same.

    There are some people who are truly gifted at it and this is their ministry.
    Bless them. They’re needed.


  394. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    That’s the message of CBMW: be wall-to-wall carpeting and let people walk all over you.
    You have no value. Your daughters have no value.
    CBMW teaches ‘another Gospel’.
    I despise what they teach, it is not biblical!

    Me too.

    My ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite pastors/elders literally yell and scream at women and tell them to “obey” and “to submit”. When women have left for saner churches, the senior pastor has ordered that they be harassed for “not submitting” to their husbands (if married) or to the pastors/elders, or to all of the above.

    According to the pastors/elders their Membership Covenant means they get to control a person’s life forever and you haven’t left and are under *Church Discipline*, whichever trumped up charge they decide.

    In my area of California (Silicon Valley/Santa Clara), the issue has become so contentious it now involves the Santa Clara County District Attorney, the Y.W.C.A. of Silicon Valley and Next Door Solutions [who advocate for women and domestic violence victims, as well as for girls], the newspaper (San Jose Mercury News), five police departments, and the Santa Clara County Sheriff’s Department.

    This is the U.S. and CA and we have legal rights, we aren’t property, aren’t slaves, and the pastors/elders can be arrested and prosecuted for what they are doing.

    They have lied about and harassed so many people who have left. We’re voters, tax payers, and adults and we don’t have to put up with his jive.


  395. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    In most of the modern translations they translate Phoebe as a “servant”, because that solves the problem. Even though the Greek word they translate “deacon” for men is exactly the same.
    And don’t forget Junia (NOT “Junias”), mentioned in one of Paul’s Epistles as an “Apostle” in her own right.

    Today’s New International Version (TNIV) is a 2005 translation that uses the word “deacon” (“diakonos” in Greek) for Phoebe (Romans 16:1-2). “Diakonos” is the same Greek word often translated as “servant”—and in Greek has no distinction between men and women.

    Today’s New International Version (TNIV) is an updated “gender-neutral” version of the New International Version (NIV). Both the original NIV and TNIV were produced by same academic scholars of International Bible Society (IBS), and published by Zondervan. TNIV has been available in the USA since 2005. However, IBS completed the TNIV in 1997, but could sell it only in Great Britain. WHY? Because here in the good ol’ USA, conservative Christians launched a public outcry against the publication of the “gender-neutral” TNIV. (I say, with sarcasm, this “righteous” outcry was due to all those IBS academics ditching their objective linguistic scholarship to produce the TNIV, and instead allowed an “unbiblical” feminist egalitarianism to influence them. Sigh.)

    Here’s a link to more of this history. To this day, you cannot buy the “gender-neutral” TNIV in certain Christian bookstores (like Lifeway):
    http://www.bible-researcher.com/tniv.html

    Even St John Chrystosom stood up for Junia as being a female Apostle. Considering JC was infamous for a LOW opinion of women (even by the standard of his time), that’s saying something.


  396. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Deb Willi:

    Sorry–don’t blame Ishy or HUG for the text and history on “gender-neutral” Today’s New International Version (TNIV). Not sure why it posted as such.

    That’s my post–for better or worse. But REAL history!


  397. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JYJames wrote:

    However, I’d have to say that reading TWW and Jesus Creed, and now Tim Fall, posts and comments, are keeping me sane in a very confused church in 2016 in the USA.

    I’m sorry to hear of your husband’s death. I’m glad you avoided a control-freak as a second husband. He does sound scary.

    I feel like you do. This blog, the people here, and our gracious Christian journalists The Deebs who should get some kind of Pulitzer Prize for their dogged, cutting edge articles, have saved my sanity. They have deprogrammed me of this nonsense.


  398. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Friend:
    It could be worse. It could be Toronto.


  399. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    take all of my NeoCalvinist books and toss them in the recycling container
    Praise God, Velour, that you see it … once you see it, you can’t un-see it!
    I frequent yard/garage sales in my area searching for vintage fishing stuff. I’ve noticed that when a Christian icon falls out of favor, his books end up on sale tables. Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Live” is everywhere! I occasionally see a Piper book – a good sign!

    Yes, Max. It’s awful stuff.

    I just pray that any books I gave people as *gifts* are gathering dust somewhere and they’re too busy and uninterested to read them.


  400. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Becky Hill:
    🙂


  401. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    In most of the modern translations they translate Phoebe as a “servant”, because that solves the problem. Even though the Greek word they translate “deacon” for men is exactly the same.
    And don’t forget Junia (NOT “Junias”), mentioned in one of Paul’s Epistles as an “Apostle” in her own right.
    Even St John Chrystosom stood up for Junia as being a female Apostle. Considering JC was infamous for a LOW opinion of women (even by the standard of his time), that’s saying something.

    The Greek word diakonos is masculine and its primary meaning is ‘servant’. It was adopted as a term for a specific form of service in the church, namely ‘deacon’. Whether Phoebe was a ‘deacon’ in the formal sense is still debated but interestingly John MacArthur argues that there was a specific office of ‘deaconess’ in the NT church.

    https://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ060713/was-phoebe-a-deaconess


  402. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee,

    Thanks for posting this. Very insightful comments from our readers. I would just add that I do believe there is a kind of seduction in the fundamentalist movement. I think some of these people started out with a genuine desire to do good (although many of them clearly didn’t), but the power structures and maybe something more sinister seduced them. Think about it – it has gotten to the point where the CBMW crowd is willing to reject the historic Trinity just to promote their ideas about “gender” “roles”. Denny Burke saddens me. He was never the brightest spark-plug in the engine block, but he was your relatively benign evangelical at one point. And then he fell into the poisonous orbit of SBTS and now he doesn’t even have the integrity to turn CBMW down. Those with an inside knowledge of the economics at SBTS can tell you exactly how these things work. All that to say that I definitely see a downward spiral in the movement. For example, no matter what one might think of Piper, he is the Duke of York compared to the crass, boorish, and petulant Owen Strachan. And somehow people like Strachan are allowed to be anti-Christ on the internet, and nobody in the comp crowd so much as blushes. I think some of these men have become blinded by greed for money and power.


  403. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lowlandseer wrote:

    interestingly John MacArthur argues that there was a specific office of ‘deaconess’ in the NT church.

    I haven’t read the article, but I don’t put too much stock in anything John MacArthur says. He takes the most narrow, rigid, hateful views about everything. The man lacks love.
    He’s a big proof texter.

    I came out of a JMac spin-off church, headed by one of his franchisees (Masters Seminary graduates). Never again.


  404. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lowlandseer wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    ishy wrote:
    In most of the modern translations they translate Phoebe as a “servant”, because that solves the problem. Even though the Greek word they translate “deacon” for men is exactly the same.
    And don’t forget Junia (NOT “Junias”), mentioned in one of Paul’s Epistles as an “Apostle” in her own right.
    Even St John Chrystosom stood up for Junia as being a female Apostle. Considering JC was infamous for a LOW opinion of women (even by the standard of his time), that’s saying something.
    The Greek word diakonos is masculine and its primary meaning is ‘servant’. It was adopted as a term for a specific form of service in the church, namely ‘deacon’. Whether Phoebe was a ‘deacon’ in the formal sense is still debated but interestingly John MacArthur argues that there was a specific office of ‘deaconess’ in the NT church.
    https://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ060713/was-phoebe-a-deaconess

    Greek noun genders don’t necessarily translate to their meaning. Latin is the same way. And I’ve seen no evidence in Scripture in Greek for offices in the church. It’s another thing that is added in English translations, and shows a bias.


  405. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    take all of my NeoCalvinist books and toss them in the recycling container
    Praise God, Velour, that you see it … once you see it, you can’t un-see it!
    I frequent yard/garage sales in my area searching for vintage fishing stuff. I’ve noticed that when a Christian icon falls out of favor, his books end up on sale tables. Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Live” is everywhere! I occasionally see a Piper book – a good sign!
    Yes, Max. It’s awful stuff.
    I just pray that any books I gave people as *gifts* are gathering dust somewhere and they’re too busy and uninterested to read them.

    The “Purpose Driven Life” can be found on the bookshelves of the average Goodwill for $2. Probably $2 more than it’s worth.


  406. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I do believe there is a kind of seduction in the fundamentalist movement. I think some of these people started out with a genuine desire to do good (although many of them clearly didn’t), but the power structures and maybe something more sinister seduced them. Think about it – it has gotten to the point where the CBMW crowd is willing to reject the historic Trinity just to promote their ideas about “gender” “roles”.

    Several thoughts about this:

    * I think our sincerity in wanting to follow God and in having our lives make a difference for the Kingdom are key ways we end up being susceptible to those who know how to misuse those good intentions for their own self-benefit.

    * That thing about the Trinity is serious. And eisegesis never ends up nice-egesis; there will always be damage done to those who put on blinders to their own bias and twist the Scriptures to make their warped views into God’s truth.


  407. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    This blog, the people here, and our gracious Christian journalists The Deebs who should get some kind of Pulitzer Prize for their dogged, cutting edge articles, have saved my sanity. They have deprogrammed me of this nonsense.

    God BLESS the Deebs and their work.


  408. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Denny Burke saddens me. He was never the brightest spark-plug in the engine block, but he was your relatively benign evangelical at one point. And then he fell into the poisonous orbit of SBTS and now he doesn’t even have the integrity to turn CBMW down.

    I am hopeful that Denny may do some good. I think he has it in him, but he does seem to be a ‘true believer’ in neo-Cal patriarchy, which seems sad. I don’t think he is a bad person, no. I wish he could find a way out of that mess . . . maybe in time. His livelihood depends on his ‘usefulness’ to the neo-Cal leadership. He says he loves the CBMW organiztion. Oh well. I have to think the best and be hopeful. I know. I know. But it’s my nature. Darn it.


  409. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    I’m in CA

    What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a CA?
    Just curious.


  410. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ishy wrote:

    Greek noun genders don’t necessarily translate to their meaning. Latin is the same way. And I’ve seen no evidence in Scripture in Greek for offices in the church. It’s another thing that is added in English translations, and shows a bias.

    Comps would likely minimize that since the word “head” in Eph. 5 is feminine. 🙂


  411. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:
    That was my point regarding gender of nouns. Your other point about that and the relationship to offices in the church I don’t understand. Reading 1 Timothy 3 seems quite clear to me.


  412. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    I’m in CA

    What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a CA?
    Just curious.

    In CA – surely this means that Velour is in the village of Cerne Abbas in Dorset, southern England. (That’s the only explanation that makes sense.)


  413. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Off topic question:

    Someone here who posts – I thought they were Catholic – offered to get some clothes and other items for Shauna (Marquis) and Billy through her job, as her offer to help out.
    That was awhile ago.

    Marquis just posted that Dee has an email of Billy’s clothing and shoe sizes.

    If you can still assist with these needs, could you please email Dee?
    dee@thewartburgwatch.com

    you can copy Deb too: deb@thewartburgwatch.com


  414. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I’m in CA
    What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a CA?
    Just curious.

    California.


  415. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    I’m in CA
    What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a CA?
    Just curious.
    In CA – surely this means that Velour is in the village of Cerne Abbas in Dorset, southern England. (That’s the only explanation that makes sense.)

    Nick,

    Has God provided me with a vacation home across The Pond?

    We could have our first international gathering of The Wartburg Watch.


  416. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Velour:

    It’s official.
    I need glasses.
    I misread your comment and thought is said that you were a CA.
    My bad. Sorry.


  417. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ ishy:
    Excellent observation!!


  418. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mara wrote:

    @ Velour:
    It’s official.
    I need glasses.
    I misread your comment and thought is said that you were a CA.
    My bad. Sorry.

    No worries.


  419. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mara wrote:

    I’m in CA
    What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a CA?
    Just curious.

    “I’m in CA” refers to her living with in California.


  420. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Im in CA to or like I remember Cal or calif … 🙂 Im old.


  421. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    True story during my last vision loss issue I go into the doctor and the tech person says can you read the E on the chart, I go what E, the one on the chart, what chart, on the wall, what wall. Then she got the point. I could not stop laughing in between crying when I thought they were maybe going to have to take my eye out of my head because of an infection. Its even funnier now.


  422. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    Max wrote:
    freedom in Christ for every believer
    For those who truly believe, the message of the Cross is this. God does not hold men accountable for Adam’s sin. God does not hold women accountable for Eve’s sin. ALL are set free from sin and death when we put our faith in Jesus. Men and women who accept Christ as Savior and Lord are co-heirs to the Kingdom of God in the here and now. “There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). The Kingdom of God knows no boundaries of race, social status, or gender.

    Amen, brother Max.


  423. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    my impression is that ‘they’ are launching something which will ultimately be even further to the right of Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood. Separating out soft comp from what is essentially patriarchy — & the latter will be the clarified platform.
    That is a possibility for the Wares and Owens. I think Mohler’s squishy statement about “tendency” rather than absolute “Role” shows that he is positioning to be the voice of moderation, despite his track record of promoting Female Subordinationism. He is, above all, a politician. There, I said it. Politicians look after their own interests while convincing their constituency (whatever flavor it is) that the politician is looking out for the constituency’s interests.
    I wonder when/if CBMW will leave or be pushed out of the nest at SBTS.

    I have not had time to read all comments here and only skimmed over Mohlers article but MY GOODNESS! I have read these guys long enough to spot a desperate rebranding when I see it. My guess is comp is going to have to be the big unifier after taking so many negative hits from outside Reformed on the stealth and charlatans and even from inside Reformed over ESS.

    Denny Burk is the perfect person for CBMW. Burk will parrot the Mohler party line but he is also a big irenic teddy bear compared to Strachan or Castleberry. Right now they need totalitarian niceness.


  424. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Friend wrote:

    So when God gets mad, does he hit us first with the Tampa Bay Lightning and then consign us for all eternity to the Calgary Flames?

    You should probably send an email to Ask Pastor John because I’m sure he would know. I could not name a hockey team if my life depended on it.


  425. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Becky Hill wrote:

    It could be worse. It could be Toronto.

    I asked for grits for breakfast one fine morning in Montreal. Did not go well, and thankfully the waiter did not have a hockey stick handy.


  426. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Friend wrote:
    So when God gets mad, does he hit us first with the Tampa Bay Lightning and then consign us for all eternity to the Calgary Flames?
    You should probably send an email to Ask Pastor John because I’m sure he would know. I could not name a hockey team if my life depended on it.

    San Jose Sharks


  427. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    skimmed over Mohlers article but MY GOODNESS! I have read these guys long enough to spot a desperate rebranding when I see it.

    Captain Al Mohler thinks that the SBC NeoCalvinist Titantic is headed for Disaster and so a little re-branding will keep the *passengers* on board? He is sorely mistaken.

    What do you suppose tipped him off to the problems? Social media. Scathing criticism from conservative Christians and theologians.

    200,000 *passengers* a year donning life preservers, fleeing for the exits, and getting into life boats and rowing furiously away from the SBC.


  428. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Friend:
    Very funny!!


  429. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Think about it – it has gotten to the point where the CBMW crowd is willing to reject the historic Trinity just to promote their ideas about “gender” “roles”

    George Knight III was teaching at Greenville Presbtyterian Seminary not too long ago, but Grudem and Ware and Owen seem to have seized all the credit for his Trinitarian innovation. Somewhere in my house is a copy of his paper on the subject which I accessed online, and he clearly assigns roles to the Persons of the Trinity and uses that as a template for a gender hierarchy. I wonder why Trueman and Liam Goligher (sp) did not call him out on that.


  430. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    I completely agree. But why are they doing this? Why do they not do it in other instances? What is it so important, to them, that a man has authority or is the head? I believe they have some self examination to do – which I don’t see them doing. Christ was not fixated on being the head – but a servant, as we all should do.

    That is a good point. In the Evans book about Verbal Abuse, she explains that in order to stop verbally abusing other people, the abuser would have to do some deep self-examination and/or go into therapy, probably for years.

    She says most verbal abusers don’t want to do that, because it would force them to face some painful inner stuff and painful issues from childhood. (And it takes effort and a lot of hard work to face your inner issues and demons.)

    So they find it easier, she says, to repress all that and keep on abusing. Maybe it’s similar with complementarians.

    Supposedly that is also true with control freaks, like my former boss. I’ve heard that even therapists have a hard time convincing control freaks that they are control freaks. The denial is too deep. And woe betide the untrained layperson who tries to tell a control freak that she’s a control freak!! Retaliation will be swift and fierce!


  431. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    I’m in CA
    What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a CA?
    Just curious.
    “I’m in CA” refers to her living with in California.

    Diana Krall singing “California Dreamin'”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk6JtDhA7WI


  432. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    Off topic question:

    Someone here who posts – I thought they were Catholic – offered to get some clothes and other items for Shauna (Marquis) and Billy through her job, as her offer to help out.
    That was awhile ago.

    Marquis just posted that Dee has an email of Billy’s clothing and shoe sizes.

    If you can still assist with these needs, could you please email Dee?
    dee@thewartburgwatch.com

    you can copy Deb too: deb@thewartburgwatch.com

    That was moi. I work in the apparel industry, and we have a big sample sale coming up. Alas, I may be in Wilmington, NC, during that time, moving younger son into college, but if I prework the sale, I can do some shopping. I get my kids’ stuff at sample sales, because it’s a lot more bang for the buck. E.g., $5 for Champion boys’ basketball shorts vs $35.

    Is it OK if I send the stuff to the Deebs? Or maybe even meet up with them to do a delivery? I am only an hour and a half away from Raleigh / Durham. Thanks!!!


  433. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:
    Probably in completely different orbits. I am familiar with the name of GK3, but he is not the kind of scholar that those outside his circle would be likely to read. As well, Truman has been associated with the comp crowd for some time, so I’m sure he feels obligated to repudiate.


  434. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Law Prof wrote:

    The “Purpose Driven Life” can be found on the bookshelves of the average Goodwill for $2.

    Hardbacks go for $1.00 and paperbacks at 50-cents at yard sales in my neck of the woods. “The Purpose Driven Life” can be found everywhere! As one lady said at a garage sale a couple weeks ago when I asked her what she thought about the book “It’s more psychology than Bible truth.”


  435. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Oops, when I mentioned $5, I did not mean that I would charge anything. Between my job and my freelance work, I make pretty good money, and I can afford this. I used to preshop the sample sales for charity ministries like our local Casa Guadalupe, but that was backbreaking work, and I’m just too old for it. But I can still preshop for individual families. Much easier!!


  436. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Someone at another site got me to thinking about something.

    Some complementarians don’t believe women should read the Bible aloud during church services.

    The Bible itself quotes women as speaking, such as Mary asking Jesus to turn water into wine and so on. Since the Bible quotes women, why do complementarians think they should not read it during services, or where ever else?

    Also, if they think a woman quoting verbatim from the text warps it in some way, why are comps OK with women reading the text silently to themselves in church or where ever else?

    Aren’t they concerned that if a woman reads the same text to herself in her head that she will warp it?


  437. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lowlandseer wrote:

    Your other point about that and the relationship to offices in the church I don’t understand. Reading 1 Timothy 3 seems quite clear to me.

    That may depend on what is meant by “office.” If you mean that there are qualified people who provide oversight for those who are young in the faith, that might merely be a function and possibly a temporary one at that. It’s not like the church at Ephesus is necessarily a model for a prescriptive church hierarchy. If it were that clear, we would not have such an amazing variety of church polity models.


  438. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Oops, when I mentioned $5, I did not mean that I would charge anything. Between my job and my freelance work, I make pretty good money, and I can afford this. I used to preshop the sample sales for charity ministries like our local Casa Guadalupe, but that was backbreaking work, and I’m just too old for it. But I can still preshop for individual families. Much easier!!

    Just checking.

    Is this post in reply to me and my question and Shauna (Marquis) and Billy’s clothing needs in Texas? Thanks.


  439. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Velour:

    Organizations who maybe still oppose singles adopting need to get with the times. Singles now comprise slightly over half the US population.


  440. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Probably in completely different orbits.

    I’m thinking I found his paper on the PCA history website years ago when I was trying to figure out this Trinitarian issue. My memory does not always deacon me well, but I think he did his research for the infant PCA, so that would have been sometime around 1973 or so. Interesting that Susan Foh came up with her novel interpretation of Genesis 3:16 right about then at Westminster Philly. Put those two ideas together and there you have Grudem’s theology of gender. Took the Baptists 20 years to catch up with the Presby scholarship. 🙂


  441. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Some complementarians don’t believe women should read the Bible aloud during church services.

    My daughter did a short tour of duty as a singer at a YRR church plant. She was allowed to read a Bible passage (ESV only) to introduce her song, but was prohibited from offering any commentary about the passage or speaking from the platform in any way. She didn’t put up with that for very long!


  442. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    My guess is comp is going to have to be the big unifier after taking so many negative hits from outside Reformed on the stealth and charlatans and even from inside Reformed over ESS.

    How sad that sexism against women is a unifying point for some Christians. And they do this in God’s name and say that sexism is taught in the Bible.


  443. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Supposedly that is also true with control freaks, like my former boss. I’ve heard that even therapists have a hard time convincing control freaks that they are control freaks. The denial is too deep. And woe betide the untrained layperson who tries to tell a control freak that she’s a control freak!! Retaliation will be swift and fierce!

    Oh my goodness. On that job I had with the one boss who harassed me for a few years?

    She was the biggest control freak micro manager, which is only one of her several flaws that drove me nuts.

    One day, in a meeting I had with my Bully Boss and another manager, she told my other manager something like this:

    “Did you hear about the new manger in the XYZ department? She is a total control freak micro manager, and her subordinates cannot stand working for her!”

    Bully Boss said it in such a way that she did not approve of the other boss being a micro manager. I remain, to this day, deeply astounded that she was the pot calling the kettle black, that she could not see how she herself was a control freak micro manager whose subordinated dreaded being around her and working for her.


  444. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Organizations who maybe still oppose singles adopting need to get with the times. Singles now comprise slightly over half the US population.

    Indeed. And there’s a lot of talented, loving singles who are safe adults for children in crisis.


  445. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    Some complementarians don’t believe women should read the Bible aloud during church services.
    My daughter did a short tour of duty as a singer at a YRR church plant. She was allowed to read a Bible passage (ESV only) to introduce her song, but was prohibited from offering any commentary about the passage or speaking from the platform in any way. She didn’t put up with that for very long!

    That’s what I called my membership at my ex-church, abusive, NeoCalvinist.
    “A tour of duty.”


  446. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Off topic question:
    Someone here who posts – I thought they were Catholic – offered to get some clothes and other items for Shauna (Marquis) and Billy through her job, as her offer to help out.
    That was awhile ago.
    Marquis just posted that Dee has an email of Billy’s clothing and shoe sizes.
    If you can still assist with these needs, could you please email Dee?
    dee@thewartburgwatch.com
    you can copy Deb too: deb@thewartburgwatch.com
    That was moi. I work in the apparel industry, and we have a big sample sale coming up. Alas, I may be in Wilmington, NC, during that time, moving younger son into college, but if I prework the sale, I can do some shopping. I get my kids’ stuff at sample sales, because it’s a lot more bang for the buck. E.g., $5 for Champion boys’ basketball shorts vs $35.
    Is it OK if I send the stuff to the Deebs? Or maybe even meet up with them to do a delivery? I am only an hour and a half away from Raleigh / Durham. Thanks!!!

    Oh, thanks so much for this.

    I didn’t see your post. I’m sorry. And I asked the question again.

    Yes, please give things to the Deebs. We’ll figure out how to get it from North Carolina to Texas. Maybe a few of us could chip in for postage and send Deb money to get it to Texas (Shauna and Billy’s).

    I know Dee has her hands full with aging, sick relatives.

    God bless you.


  447. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Catholic Gate-Crasher:

    Thanks for your help in getting clothes for Shauna’s (screen name “Marquis”) son Billy.
    Yes, please get the items to Dee and Deb in North Carolina. We will figure out how to get them mailed to Texas, perhaps chip in for the postage among ourselves here.

    Dee apparently has an email from Billy’s mom with his sizing needs.


  448. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    If it were that clear, we would not have such an amazing variety of church polity models.

    Not very clear at all if you ask me.


  449. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Lowlandseer wrote:
    Your other point about that and the relationship to offices in the church I don’t understand. Reading 1 Timothy 3 seems quite clear to me.
    That may depend on what is meant by “office.” If you mean that there are qualified people who provide oversight for those who are young in the faith, that might merely be a function and possibly a temporary one at that. It’s not like the church at Ephesus is necessarily a model for a prescriptive church hierarchy. If it were that clear, we would not have such an amazing variety of church polity models.

    My memory is a bit hazy but years ago I researched this with an interlinear and other tools and found that “office” was added by translators in several places.. The words in question seemed to be more like action words that described a function. Too many examples of translators adding words like “symbol of” in 1 Corin 11 and submit again in Ephesians 5. I can certainly understand why translators working for a monarch in a church state would add, “office”. :o)


  450. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    skimmed over Mohlers article but MY GOODNESS! I have read these guys long enough to spot a desperate rebranding when I see it.
    Captain Al Mohler thinks that the SBC NeoCalvinist Titantic is headed for Disaster and so a little re-branding will keep the *passengers* on board? He is sorely mistaken.
    What do you suppose tipped him off to the problems? Social media. Scathing criticism from conservative Christians and theologians.
    200,000 *passengers* a year donning life preservers, fleeing for the exits, and getting into life boats and rowing furiously away from the SBC.

    Guys like Mohler don’t care what we or the pew sitters think. If he did, he would not have made fun of victims of child molestation at T$G –among other insulting things over the years.

    Peer pressure is what is going on, IMO. Mohler is a political strategist and is getting in front a potential disaster on several fronts. He has always managed to sound reasonable after promoting much unreasonableness.


  451. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    Think about it – it has gotten to the point where the CBMW crowd is willing to reject the historic Trinity just to promote their ideas about “gender” “roles”
    George Knight III was teaching at Greenville Presbtyterian Seminary not too long ago, but Grudem and Ware and Owen seem to have seized all the credit for his Trinitarian innovation. Somewhere in my house is a copy of his paper on the subject which I accessed online, and he clearly assigns roles to the Persons of the Trinity and uses that as a template for a gender hierarchy. I wonder why Trueman and Liam Goligher (sp) did not call him out on that.

    Yes. Very strange.


  452. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    Guys like Mohler don’t care what we or the pew sitters think. If he did, he would not have made fun of victims of child molestation at T$G –among other insulting things over the years.
    Peer pressure is what is going on, IMO. Mohler is a political strategist and is getting in front a potential disaster on several fronts. He has always managed to sound reasonable after promoting much unreasonableness.

    No, he doesn’t care.

    And from everything I’ve read about these *leaders* (cough) they are real snakes.
    Firing good people right and left at seminaries and replacing them with their party favorites, dumbing down the education and the departments. They are a pretty unethical lot.


  453. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Velour:

    I think Mohler is more upset that some Presbyterian theologians are questioning the scholarship coming out of SBTS. Must be mortifying for him. :o)


  454. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I think Mohler is more upset that some Presbyterian theologians are questioning the scholarship coming out of SBTS. Must be mortifying for him. :o)

    Serves Al Mohler right. He’s done so much damage.


  455. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    My guess is comp is going to have to be the big unifier after taking so many negative hits from outside Reformed on the stealth and charlatans and even from inside Reformed over ESS.

    How sad that sexism against women is a unifying point for some Christians. And they do this in God’s name and say that sexism is taught in the Bible.

    “Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend.”
    A common ENEMY is a Unifier.

    And a Mass Movement can get by without a god, but absolutely HAS to have a Devil.


  456. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In CA – surely this means that Velour is in the village of Cerne Abbas in Dorset, southern England. (That’s the only explanation that makes sense.)

    Or she’s superglue (CyanoAcrylate).


  457. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lydia:
    Kittel confirms the action sense of the word but also shows how it was used both in secular Athens and in the NT as “office”.


  458. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    Firing good people right and left at seminaries and replacing them with their party favorites, dumbing down the education and the departments. They are a pretty unethical lot

    Amen! Amen! Amen! And that is the reason the SBC is going down and the leaders can try all they want the old ship can not be turned around.


  459. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Kittel confirms the action sense of the word but also shows how it was used both in secular Athens and in the NT as “office”.

    But what is meant by office? Was it a temporary thing at Ephesus? Was it a permanent thing for the Church universal? Does oversight carry special spiritual authority due to ordination or is someone an overseer because they have more maturity? Those are all inferences from the little information we have.


  460. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Daisy wrote:

    And they do this in God’s name and say that sexism is taught in the Bible.

    The Bible ‘teaches’ no such thing. The only thing the Bible teaches is to love God and be a Mensch (Yiddish for good person).


  461. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    I can certainly understand why translators working for a monarch in a church state would add, “office”. :o)

    What i can’t understand is why you would assume that only in a monarchy would there be such a thing as an ‘office.’ We do not live in a monarchy and we have secular offices (the office of governor of a state) and titles (superintendent of schools) and the fact that these are not the permanent possession of any individual person does not change our thinking such as to reject the idea of office or the use of title.

    And when the cop stops you everybody must and must call him ‘officer’ and respect the office of which he is an officer. They can get right touchy about that.


  462. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ okrapod:
    In the body of Christ, too?


  463. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lea wrote:

    Tim

    My ex-husband used that quote in several of his weekly identical, printed letters to my teenagers when I was in the process of divorcing him, trying to manipulate them, hoping to turn them against me. Thank God, they knew better because I had already learned the proper interpretation and meaning of that section of scripture.


  464. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Argh. Sigh. The quote was supposed to be from the conversation about “God hates divorce.” Not sure what happened.

    Lea:
    “Gram3 wrote:
    Personally, I think more highly of God’s character *because* his prophet declares that God hates the men abusing their power to divorce their wives at will.”

    “It’s pretty gross that they’ve turned around a passage about protecting women from ill use by men into one that SUPPORTS just that.”


  465. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lowlandseer:
    Who is Kittle? Did I miss something earlier?


  466. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mot wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Firing good people right and left at seminaries and replacing them with their party favorites, dumbing down the education and the departments. They are a pretty unethical lot
    Amen! Amen! Amen! And that is the reason the SBC is going down and the leaders can try all they want the old ship can not be turned around.

    I just pray that whatever organization that comes about (beauty for ashes as my friend Gail who posts here is fond of telling me) will be much more moderate and have much better practices in place across the board. And I pray that they will finally address the issue of child safety and protection, and a national database, etc.


  467. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    In CA – surely this means that Velour is in the village of Cerne Abbas in Dorset, southern England. (That’s the only explanation that makes sense.)
    Or she’s superglue (CyanoAcrylate).

    LOL.

    H.U.G. you may now proceed to your nearest See’s Candy and have a FREE sample. In fact,
    ask for a second one for Nick.

    Nick, We’re sorry you’re across The Pond and can’t have a free chocolate from one of our well-known California candy shops. H.U.G., however, will have yours and post a report for you.


  468. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Persephone wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Tim
    My ex-husband used that quote in several of his weekly identical, printed letters to my teenagers when I was in the process of divorcing him, trying to manipulate them, hoping to turn them against me. Thank God, they knew better because I had already learned the proper interpretation and meaning of that section of scripture.

    Good for you and your children.


  469. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    And they do this in God’s name and say that sexism is taught in the Bible.
    The Bible ‘teaches’ no such thing. The only thing the Bible teaches is to love God and be a Mensch (Yiddish for good person).

    Amen, brother Muff!


  470. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:
    Yes. These are great questions. I don’t view these functions as necessarily static, either, as in oh dear the pastor is leaving one of the Ephesian gatherings and we have to recruit another one right away. That would be more like how an “office” works, seems to me. Not all the gatherings had elders, either. It seems the Corinthian church did not.

    That seems to come into play with the need for the more mature to help oversee this chaotic new way in some places like Crete, for example. I don’t think it was so formalized or institutionalized. That, in and of itself, is not so much sinful but it can be quite stifling. It seems to me we see encouragement to develop gifts in all members of which functions in and outside the body. One has to wonder how many giftings were left at the door undeveloped over history. We are all poorer for it.


  471. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    And they do this in God’s name and say that sexism is taught in the Bible.

    The Bible ‘teaches’ no such thing. The only thing the Bible teaches is to love God and be a Mensch (Yiddish for good person).

    And (in Jewish tradition) to Live Your Life.


  472. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    I think Mohler is more upset that some Presbyterian theologians are questioning the scholarship coming out of SBTS. Must be mortifying for him.

    The real Calvinist theologians ain’t seen nothing like this new strain of reformed theology, with all its abuses of Christian liberty. Must be mortifying for ‘them’!


  473. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    The best thing I ever did post bad church experience was take all of my NeoCalvinist books and toss them in the recycling container (I ripped them up and threw them out separately so no one could read them).

    Now, see, I use that kind of thing to line the cats’ litter box. You have not been gloriously amused until you see 2 cats doing their (ahem!!) Serious Business on the faces of some self-righteous loon, & know that he would go into a conniptional fit at the thought……..