“In order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does everything in his power to promote forgetting. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure no one listens.” ― Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and Recovery link
The blessed shepherd who loves His children
In the March issue of Christianity Today. Mary De Muth, a child sex abuse survivor, interviewed Dan Allender about his new book Healing the Wounded Heart: The Heartache of Sexual Abuse and the Hope of Transformation. I thought of Shauna and Billy and Lakeside Bible Church.
(Mary DeMuth's question) As a survivor, I’ve endured insensitive advice like “Quit rehashing the past” or “God makes all things new.” How can your book help someone walk alongside a victim with kindness?
We all need companions. Why? Because abuse is often done in private, under the cover of silence. Abuse has to be addressed in the light, in community. As I mentioned earlier, the memories are often fragmented. They will become more coherent only as you begin filling in the gaps by telling your story.
For the victim, telling the story begins to heal a portion of your heart. Telling it again opens a door to healing another portion. Some people tell their story once, and it doesn’t seem to help, so they stop. But you are meant to continue bearing the scars of this story just as Jesus bears the scars of his crucifixion through all eternity. His glorification didn’t take away the marks of the Cross.
Here are the main points of this section.
- Victims need to tell their stories, often over and over again.
- Abuse takes place in silence.
- Sometimes, it takes telling the story over and over again to fill in the gaps of what happened.
- Abuse must be addressed in the light of the community.
- Victims need companions who are willing to bear the scars of their story just as Jesus will always bear the scars of His crucifixion for us.
However, It does not appear that Shauna and Billy were afforded these opportunities from Lakeside Bible Church, Ken Ramey, the Elders (capital E) and counselors™. I have spoken with Shauna many times. I can sense the relief in her voice as I do not rush her, I do not say she is repeating herself, and I cry along with her. Her story never changes. In fact, in our discussions, I have seen her able to add fragments to the story that give me an even clearer picture of what happened.
I believe that Shauna is telling the truth. The reason for this post is the reason for all of the other TWW posts. If we do not tell the specific stories of how churches deal with pain and suffering, we cannot help the church to change its tactics in caring for those wounded by sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc.
When I went to business school, we studied the stories of victory and demise of companies via the case study method. These case studies were specific. They revealed stories of inept and mean managers, stupid financial decisions, abuse of workers, etc. They named names. They shared corporate communications, etc. Churches will not do this, hiding their failures under the guise of confidentiality. Then the church presents a picture of apparent health and happiness. But pain lingers just under the surface. TWW is not in the business of destroying churches. We're hoping to prevent abuse by highlighting what works and does not work.
We believe that Nouthetic counseling and church discipline as practiced in the last decade have been fraught with failures leading to the abuse of church members. These folks joined churches hoping to experience love and, instead, got kicked in the teeth. These stories are their perspectives and churches would do well to listen to them.
Billy and Shauna were in rough shape when this all began.
Shauna blamed herself for not checking on Billy and Joe sooner. This is a common concern of many parents whose children are assaulted. She also grieved his loss of innocence and was shaken to the core by the extent of bodily injury and the treatment necessary to keep him physically free from potential disease.
Billy suffered beyond the physical trauma of the rape. He wanted to change his name so he could pretend that this hadn't happened to him. He was having frequent nightmares and exhibited the symptoms of post traumatic stress syndrome.
Shauna was in pain and experienced post traumatic stress as well. She wanted to talk about it and needed the support and encouragement of her church. What she got caused her much pain.
Keeping this in mind…
Ken Ramey wanted her to pursue reconciliation immediately
Right after the rape, Ramey told Shauna that only the church could adequately counsel Billy and the perpetrator. He reportedly went to court to ask the judge to allow the church to do the counseling for the two families.The judge said he could not counsel both families.
Safe Harbor
Shauna made a wise decision after the rape of Billy. The church wanted to counsel both Billy and her. However, she had Billy participate in Safe Harbor where he received great guidance. Not only did they do the forensic interview for the police investigation, they continue to offer Billy support.
Welcome to Children's Safe Harbor
Combined, Montgomery, San Jacinto, and Walker counties receive more than 3000 reports per year of children who have been harmed by sexual and/or physical abuse. In the past, victims seeking help faced multiple contacts with different community professionals, which created a maze of confusion and distress for the child and the family.
Children's Safe Harbor has changed all of that.
Our Mission:Children's Safe Harbors' mission is to protect and enhance the life of every child who has the courage to battle sexual and physical abuse.
Our Vision:
With a team of community and professional agencies united, we are committed to counsel the mind and heal the body of brave children and prosecute the offenders of the youngest and most vulnerable victims of our society.
Our Goal:
The goal of Children's Safe Harbor is to reduce the trauma of child victims and their non-offending caregivers by facilitating a comprehensive, multi-disciplinary team approach to intervention, investigation, prosecution and treatment of child sexual and severe physical abuse.
Shauna is one smart woman by involving outsiders in her son's care immediately. It is my belief that they have done a great job in helping Billy deal with the issues of his rape. However, someone was not happy about this.
Ken Ramey tried to talk Shauna out of allowing Billy to counsel with Safe Harbor.
He reportedly said Billy would not be safe with those types of counselors. He claimed that Billy should never be left alone with those counselors and that the counselors could "ruin" Billy. This is in keeping with the MacArthurite belief that only Biblical™ counseling is appropriate.
As an aside, I am always leery when someone says they have the biblical™ view on counseling , gender roles, creationism, etc. When I look around at all of the self declared celebrity leaders and see how they differ on many aspects of Scripture, I wonder if some leaders are misusing the Bible in order to promote their preferred view of secondary issues.
Nouthetic/Biblical counseling via John MacArthur
This church is devoted to Nouthetic counseling as advocated by John MacArthur's ministry. Wikipedia defines the issue succinctly. Note the part I highlighted.
Nouthetic counseling (Greek: noutheteo, to admonish) is a form of Evangelical Protestant pastoral counseling based solely upon the Bible and focused on Christ. It repudiates mainstream psychology and psychiatry as humanistic, radically secular and fundamentally opposed to Christianity. Its viewpoint was originally articulated by Jay E. Adams, in Competent to Counsel (1970) and further books, and has led to the formation of a number of organizations and seminary courses promoting it.[1] The viewpoint is opposed to those seeking to synthesize Christianity with secular psychological thought, but has failed to win them over to a purely Biblical approach. Since 1993, the movement has renamed itself Biblical counseling to emphasize its central emphasis on the Bible.[1] The Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling states that "The aim of Nouthetic Counseling is to effect change in the counselee by encouraging greater conformity to the principles of Scripture."[2]
…Nouthetic counseling has been criticized as narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus upon sin and behavior, which fails to deal adequately with emotion, grief, and suffering, and which lacks understanding of complex human motivations.[3]
Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia describing MacArthur's view of psychology. Note the sections I highlighted and the confidant assertions with little proof.
He is also an advocate of Nouthetic Counseling, which stresses the Bible as a sufficient tool for counseling people with mental illnesses such as depression and anxiety. MacArthur does not reject all forms of psychological theories and techniques, though he considers some psychology and psychiatry as contrary to the Bible.[35]
MacArthur has argued that "True psychology (i.e. "the study of the soul") can be done only by Christians, since only Christians have the resources for understanding and transforming the soul. The secular discipline of psychology is based on godless assumptions and evolutionary foundations and is capable of dealing with people only superficially and only on the temporal level… Psychology is no more a science than the atheistic evolutionary theory upon which it is based. Like theistic evolution, Christian psychology is an attempt to harmonize two inherently contradictory systems of thought. Modern psychology and the Bible cannot be blended without serious compromise to or utter abandonment of the principle of Scripture's sufficiency.... "[36]
According to Shauna, the people involved in the LBC counseling ministry are not professionally trained counselors. She says that they have received training form seminars and audios put out by MacArthur's ministry. Apparently the head of counseling for LBC is a businessman by day and a *counselor* in his off time-kind of like a weekend golfer pretending to be a Master.
Let me make something clear. Counseling those affected by child/teen sex abuse is a highly complex situation. The act of a rape can last a few minutes but the effects of the rape can last a lifetime. I believe it is both arrogant as well as dangerous to sic an untrained volunteer upon any family that has just experienced such a traumatic event. As you will see, it didn't work out too well for Shauna.
It is important to understand that the following events lasted only a few months after the rape. By October, Shauna was so upset, she decided to leave the church.
Shauna called Masters Seminary and John MacArthur's Grace Community Church asking for help.
She was asking advice about how to deal with this situation. After weeks of no response, she received an email telling her to reconcile with Joe's family. That's it. Case closed.
Ken Ramey refused to use *rape* to describe what happened to Billy.
Shauna believes that Ramey was implying the Billy was responsible for allowing the assault to happen even though Joe threatened Billy with harm. Soon after, Shauna began to hear from church people who claim they were told that this was consensual behavior between the two boys and that Billy was a homosexual.
Shauna was repeatedly told by Ken Ramey and other leaders to shut up and not to talk about the rape.
Shauna was told to speak only to the leaders or her counselor about Billy's assault. Please refer to the book that was discussed at the beginning of this post. Telling her to go silent would have been the absolute worst piece of advice . Victims and their families need to speak about their pain and they need to have the freedom in whom to confide. Shauna was told by the DA that she could talk about what happened since she was witness to the event. Yet Ken reportedly told her that it would be slander to do so.
Here is a very important question to ask in this circumstance. Why was she told to be silent about the rape? Why were rumors beginning that this was a consensual relationship and why did members believe that Billy was a *homosexual?* Why, when Ken learned of these rumors, did he not address them strongly? Why did Shauna need to be quiet while the chatty church members were allowed to continue with such rumors? Why didn't Ken and the leaders tell these other members they were slandering Shauna and Billy?
Instead, Shauna said that Ken met with her on several occasions to counsel her on say she was being disobedient by talking about what happened. he reportedly told he to repent and ask God for forgiveness for not submitting to authority. Another leader confronted her for talking about this to a newly hired youth leader. He said
"We don't know what to do with you. You continue to disobey the elders. You need to ask God for forgiveness and ask the Elders for forgiveness. We just don't know what to do with you.
Shauna interpreted this as a veiled threat that she would be kicked out of the church. So, Billy was forced to be silent during the rape and now he and his mom were being forced to continue their silence except with *approved* individuals. Remember, Billy's injuries were documented at an Emergency Room and Joe would plead guilty. Safe Harbor also confirmed that Billy was raped.
During this time, people began to ignore her and she found her cleaning jobs beginning to dry up. Why was that?
The counselor wanted her to *fuhgeddaboudit* and be happy
Fuhgeddaboudit is defined in the Urban Dictionary thusly
Forget about it – the issue is not worth the time, energy, mental effort, or emotional resources.
Shauna was assigned a biblical™ counselor, whom I shall call Pam, by the church. Shauna knew her and thought she might be helpful. Things began well enough. Pam told her that she believed that this was not Joe's first assault. Uh oh. Is this why silence was enforced by the pastors?Over time, however, things changed.
Pam told Shauna to *fuhgeedaboudit* by recounting what happened with her own child.
This encounter is quite concerning. Pam reportedly said that when her own child was about 3-4 years old and in day care, the child came home with noticeable redness and inflammation in her vaginal area. The child showed it to her mother. Pam said she didn't say anything about it. She just changed day care and moved on with life. She said everything was fine and she never dealt with it beyond those actions. Uh oh…
She used this to encourage Shauna to quickly move on from the incident just like she supposedly did.
Pam told Shauna that she needed to find joy in the situation or she would be in sin.
Pam told her that Shauna was not exhibiting enough joy. Pam stated that she should be praising God in the situation and that God had allowed this to happen to her child for a good reason. She said she was in sin for *not finding joy in the situation.* As Shauna started to cry, Pam told her to stop it and start praising God. She told her to *get into the Word* more. She assigned to her read transcripts from John MacArthur's sermon. Pam never told Shauna that it was alright to grieve.
One church leader, during this time, reportedly told her that God may have allowed this to happen to Billy to bring him *to Christ.* This is just plain nonsense that is often spouted by those who believe that God causes everything to occur, even evil.
Pam said Shauna would need to be disciplined for her anger unless she repented.
Shauna shared a personal story about a private incident that involved Billy being treated unfairly. It had just happened and it would take her a few days to settle down. Pam asked her if she still felt angry. When Shauna said "Yes," Pam told her that she was blatantly sinning against God. Therefore, Pam would need to report her sin of anger for discipline. This would begin the process of Matthew 18. According to Shauna, Ken believes that discipline needs to be going on at all times for all sorts of things.
Shauna, fearful of getting in trouble again, decided to call Pam and tell her that she *repented.* Pam said she was glad and she would cancel the scheduled discipline meeting!
Shauna leaves LBC about 5 months after Billy's rape
Soon after this, Shauna left the church. She was broken down, discouraged, and feeling quite alone. Before she left, she tried to get Ken Ramey to read Lindsey and Justin Holcomb's book Rid of My Disgrace: Hope and Healing for Victims of Sexual Assault. But Ken didn't have enough time. Perhaps that says it all.
Summary:
I think this statement from Shauna to me says it all.
They didn't show they cared about us. They cared more about Joe and his family.
Today, Shauna met with a female leader from the church. Once again, Shauna was asked if she thinks Billy is a homosexual came up. I find this line of questioning very disconcerting since it appears that people involved with the church are repeating a narrative that this was a consensual act between two boys and that Billy may be a homosexual.
Take a look at this note from Shauna's *counselor.* (I had to copy the screenshot because it mentioned Billy's true name.)
When we talk about these homosexuality thoughts that come to your mind, you related that to the fact that people questioned whether *Billy* was a willing participant in the assault when everything first happened. And you said that made you angry. How did you relate your thoughts to that? What was the cause of your anger?
Is anyone seeing a trend here?
Calling all lawyers
I have a question or two regarding this situation and I was wondering if I could ask you off line. Please let me know.
For Billy and Shauna
Please remember the GoFundMe.
Here is a song by Matt Redmond for *Billy." Matt was abused as a boy and has found healing in Jesus and in his music. Please know we love you both and we believe you.
The scanned clip from the counselor located just above the video has Billy’s real name.
Speaking of talking about it, Natalie Greenfield recently spoke at the University of Idaho about her abuse and Doug Wilsons attempt to try to shut her up and tell her to forgetaboutit.
http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/2016/03/my-story-of-abuse-shaming-recovery.html
“Biblical counseling” is neither
@ Beth D:
Thank you so much. I have edited it.
Thank you dee, I know this song and now I know who you were talking about when you told me about Matt Redmond. Thank you for being there in the aftermath of that upsetting confrontation. It was like being in Kens office all over again being accused of being angry,bitter, attacks on my son and blatant lies on his sexuality in the wake of his rape. They used someone again who I worked for and had a relationship to put me in a vulnerable position. I’m regretting sitting there entertaining it but how could I know this was her intention when she invited me to have soup? This was odd considering she had never had a sit down anything with me. I suspected she may try to bring up me and billy going public but I wasn’t sure it seemed kosher. I was also there cleaning today. It turned out to be a disaster and I couldn’t stomach being there a second longer whether she stayed or left. I was sick to my stomach and literally felt the searing pains of my son being accused again. I was accused of going public and making this up because deep down I believe my son is homosexual!! No words just sick to my stomach and literally in shock. It made my stomach turn so much that I had to run to the bathroom to throw up. Another relationship now twisted with twisted thinking and more accusations against my baby. Just when I think it can’t get any worse!
This idea of the victim “not exhibiting enough joy” is simply monstrous. What a warped view to have of people.
This idea is so ingrained in modern Christendom that even victims I’ve talked to self suppress talking about their ordeal. They don’t need someone else to tell them to shut up and move on because their “christian” training has been so exhaustive they have already locked themselves up.
I can count a half dozen times, after bringing it up someone can’t bring it to any resolution. I hear them say “I shouldn’t be talking about this” or “I need to move on”. Arrgh, I feel ill equipped to help anyone overcome their “training”.
Anyone have a resource that specifically addresses this false premise “you need to stop talking about it and move on”? It needs to be short, effective, and digestible.
Shauna and Billy have been through enough. They didn’t need all of these incompetent, abusive people at their church to heap more abuse on them, more threats.
Having exited a church like the one they were in, also headed by a John MacArthur Master’s Seminary graduate, located in Sunnyvale, CA (rents from the Seventh Day Adventists on Fremont Ave.) the damage inflicted is the same.
*People with NO professional training and licensing pretend to be experts to deal with incredibly SERIOUS problems in peoples’ lives. They have 0 skills. Their “counseling” consists of running their mouths, giving their personal opinions, telling a counselee that something isn’t important, ridiculing, mocking, threatening, and the ever looming threat of “church discipline”.
*Nouthetic Counseling FAILURES (aka Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, a felony or a misdemeanor crime in my state, CA)
This Jay Adams concept is just ludicrous and should have never gained traction. Gross negligence. Malpractice. Unauthorized Practice of Medicine. (At my ex-John MacArthur-ite church they also used and studied, including in Bible study groups, a book called Self Confrontation by John Broger. Just insane.)
The pastors/elders at my ex-church FAILED to get an older woman alcoholic to a doctor for care and treatment. They harmed her (she was a widow), her adult children, and church members.
The pastors/elders wasted months of members’ time in meetings, hour upon hour, of needless drivel. Drawing pictures on the blackboard about gossip, etc. The pastors/elders made church members go to *apologize* to her for wrongs that she had done to them, caused by her drinking.
The problems she caused at church were caused by: ALCOHOLISM A physician should have been in charge of her care and supervised her treatment.
*Woman With Dyslexia And Memory Problems
The pastors/elders at my ex-church FAILED to get a woman church member into medical care for her genetically inherited brain disorder, dyslexia, and its related memory problems, short-term memory problems and working memory problems.
She accused church members of “lying” and said that events that had taken place had not. The pastors/elders were inflamed. (She has refused to get medical care or be in support groups for her problem, claiming that “Jesus could heal her if he wanted to.” OK, that hasn’t happened. Jesus gave you medical care, get some!
*Woman Lashing Out At Others Not Referred To Professional Therapist To Resolve Her Problems
And yet another church member had a vicious mouth on her and lashed out at people right and left, men and women. During the Great Recession she openly told men and women who had been laid off not to come to church any more “until they could contribute”. Hardworking people, they did. But she freely humiliated them and several never came back to church.
Countless harm done to countless people. Story after story. Horrible verbal abuse.
Somebody with that kind of rage should be in professional therapy. The senior pastor’s response? She’s his friend and he didn’t hear her say it so it must not have happened. “She’s a nice person and does nice things for the church.” Wow, she’s left how many damaged lives in her path…and he was so incompetent he couldn’t refer her to a bona fide therapist?
*Mental Health Issues. Also Major Fail at my ex-church.
My ex-pastors/elders also failed to get people to mental health care.
*Bible Is Sufficient Counsel For Everything
This is what MacArthur, Jay Adams, and their clones claim. OK, how come they all wear prescription eye glasses? Why not just toss a few Scripture verses at vision problems and voila it will be all better?
*Boundaries
Like Shauna’s church, the people at my ex-church were trained to have no healthy boundaries. If you declined to give your personal, private information to them, declined their (really stupid advice), you would find yourself turned in to the pastors/elders and called in to more meetings to “explain yourself”.
*Sex Offenders
My ex-church’s pastors/elders also failed in this too. They brought their friend a Megan’s List sex offender to church, put him in leadership and trust, and gave him access to kids and all activities, and told no one. Reason? He said a few words about Jesus.
By the way, they hold to Comp doctrine. That women can’t lead. They have to obey and submit.
Godly women with Ph.D.’s at my ex-church couldn’t serve, but a convicted felon on Megan’s List was ushered to the front of the line!
These churches are INSANE. Just stay from John MacArthur’s Master’s Seminary graduates/church plants, Mark Dever’s 9 Marks, Acts 29, and a whole host of authoritarian, dark ages churches.
They talk a good line about having it all together, meanwhile they inflict just incredible damage on peoples’ lives.
Church members – married couples, singles, entire families, church staff members – fled my ex-church. It was so bizarre and destructive.
Yeah, this is the sort of “counseling” that outsiders consider warp and woof of those crazy “evangelicals.” Beating people with the Bible.
Personally, I think it is simply emotional idiocy. It is not Biblical because God clearly is a God who is passionate and made us with emotions. I find it astounding how poorly these folks–i.e. Pam–grasp grief and issues of injustice.
If you aren’t grieving, then the loss didn’t mean much to you. If you aren’t angry over a child being raped, then I question whether you know God in a meaningful way as He is certainly angry over such a violation.
My wife and I led divorce recovery groups at our church for 9 years. We used the DivorceCare curriculum. A few years ago, they added well known “nouthetic” counselors to their list of on screen “experts”. I was appalled to learn what these Bozo’s taught. I could not reconcile the thought that some of the vulnerable folks from our groups might be influenced by their nonsense. We dropped DivorceCare and went to a secular curricullum.
Please somebody publish a good Christ centered program that we do not have to apologize for!
If you folks are up for it…I've been up to my eyeballs in a situation involving an Evangelical Free Church in Pennsylvania. Dee is getting involved shortly. (Yeah!) Okay…the Senior Pastor son of Community Evangelical Free Church in Elverson, PA was an alcoholic who allegedly raped his wife. He also had a sleeping disorder and pointed a loaded gun at her. When she filed for divorce Steve Estes who had ties to Dave Harvey, and on the board of directors of CCEF, and teaches at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia had his daughter-in-law excommunicated and declared not a Christian.
All he details are in two posts.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/03/10/hurits-public-excommunication-while-alleged-criminal-activity-by-brock-estes-is-withheld-from-the-congregation-appeals-for-help-fall-on-deaf-ears-to-steve-musser-of-the-eastern-district-and-nationa/
Divorce Minister wrote:
Amen
Jesus wept.
Bill M wrote:
This OP by Deb and Dee hits on several areas I’ve been struggling with in my own faith crisis, and I could write on it all day. 🙂
But as to your particular inquiry there.
I was brought up in a family (of Christians) who think having or showing emotions or admitting to being hurt (or being afraid, sad) is shameful.
So, you are supposed to repress all these feelings and don’t talk about them with others. I know all that all too well.
Someone on this blog (Victorious) saw me say that on an old thread and recommended this book to me, and I got a copy:
“Tired of Trying to Measure Up”
– Wade Burleson wrote a blog post about it here:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/05/it-is-time-to-get-new-friends-when.html
I got a copy of that book a few months ago. The author gives his proposed solutions to some of these issues in the last couple of chapters – which were okay – but what really won me over was the first fourth or so of the book, where he just describes shaming.
He spends the first part of the book just describing the typical things that happens to a person who was raised in a performance-based, shame-based family, where you get scolded for having feelings, showing them, etc.
Just seeing that confirmed in black and white on paper by this author, and knowing other people experienced the same thing as I did, helped me realize it was not okay to be treated that way. It also helps a bit to know I’m not alone, that others went through this.
Another book that discusses the wrong Christian view of “just get over it, don’t talk about it, and move on,” and the accompanying misused Bible verses to tell people to shut up (“you are a new creature in Christ; the old things are in the past” -or whatever that verse is) is discussed in this book (written by Christians):
12 ‘Christian’ Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy: Relief from False Assumptions
https://books.google.com/books?id=R_sy4bBlUeEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=12+Christian+beliefs+that+can+drive+you+crazy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bI7NVObPB9LesAT_qIDgBw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=12%20Christian%20beliefs%20that%20can%20drive%20you%20crazy&f=false
This is an example of those who have hurt Shauna and Billy. I am allowing it for one reason, and one reason only: it totally affirms to me the story Shauna told. The young man pled guilty to aggravated sexual assault which is essentially rape. Billy did not consent. He was 13 and developmentally 9.And now, one of the shining examples of the love of Christ that probably has ties to LBC, told us all to go to hell.Can you imagine what goes on around there?
The commenter did not show one bit of concern for Billy and that, in the ned, says it all. This "Infuriated Reader" is now banned. But I am grateful for the revealing comment.-Dee
This is so sickening. I’ve never been a fan of this whole ‘biblical counseling’ business… A friend of mine was being counseled this way by somebody from church, and I think he found it more harmful than helpful. I understood that it all ended up being about feeling guilty about yourself.
I really hope that the situation will improve for Shauna and Billy, and wish them all the best. Very happy to see that the GoFundme has already reached and passed the set objective!
If Shauna needs to be angry for that to happen, let it be so. Talk, speak, even incessantly if it’s required for you to be heard. If you need a biblical basis to do that, remember the story of the persistent widow in Luke 18. Some people will get tired of it, but others will stay by your side… It’s just very possible that many of those may not be the people you expected initially to do it.
I’ve come to see that, as I grow older, I have less and less time and patience for the kind of troubling attitudes and twisted teachings like those presented by Lakeside Bible church and others.
Why is only Billy's sexuality seemingly questioned? Is he homosexual? What about Joe? That is only the first of the issues I have with this whole line of 'labelling'. Even if, if, Billy was, how does that condone rape? The medical evidence clearly shows he was harmed & this was non-consensual. This is such a ridiculous red herring. As for everything else I want to say about this situation & the ludicrous farce of nouthetic counselling, much less Pam letting some child abuser harm her child with no consequences & leaving them in place at daycare to harm others… all the words I have are very very rude and will be(rightly) moderated. What a total crock of cr@p you & Billy were served up by these utter disgraces to Christ. Tell Billy I think of him: I was a church youth worker & run youth clubs in the wider world. I only wish he could attend one of those where he'd be safe & valued.
JeffT wrote:
Agreed. It is just one big ‘Biblical’ telling off, which people are delighted to do to you.
One thing that always bothered me about the “consensual homosexual act” bit is the consensual part. Isn’t Billy proven to be developmentally delayed (mentally)? and the other boy was older? Even if Billy were of sound mental faculty appropriate for his chronological age, the age difference is enough of a unbalanced power relationship (for example, even at two years apart, a third grader and fifth grader would NOT be considered peers).
So how — even if Billy were homosexual — could it have been *consensual*??
There is something creepily evil about their view of ” joy” over evil deeds done by one of their “own”. Piper talks this way, too. It turns good/evil upside down. Healing can only begin when we call evil, evil.
The closest they get to a sin stance is with Shauna who they scold for not obeying elders!
It is a warped “Christian world view” in these sorts of thought Reform cults.
I want Billy to know they lie about Jesus Christ just as they lied about him. He is nothing like they present Him. And they lie about Him for their own gain of power over others. That is evil, too.
Bill M wrote:
I’ve been giving this whole mess a great deal of thought lately, and I have a theory (run for the hills!). It goes back to the mindset encapsulated in the nouthetic blurb above…
“Only Christians have the resources for understanding and transforming the soul.”
We live in a world that is, in essence, God-absent. We don’t see natural miracles much, we have scientific explanations for much of what was originally credited to God alone, and (unless you’re “charismatic”) God doesn’t talk audibly. All we have is this Book, others who read it and try to follow it, and the organizations if people who try to follow it. But people want *tangible proof and benefits* that are directly attributable to God. Outside of charismatic churches, what is there? “Changed lives”. The Gospel inevitably – in fact, *necessarily* – leads to dramatic moral and spiritual transformation. If it’s how God is working today, how could it not?
I think that may explain in part the desires of many people not directly involved in the abuse to keep things quiet. A molester who has professed faith and promises a changed life! God is at work! Hallelujah! But if evidence comes up that that abuser isn’t changed… Well, that leads to some VERY uncomfortable implications about the belief that God is still at work in the ways we have still set aside for Him. If God doesn’t dramatically change lives in a quantifiable manner… Well, where does that leave us apart from the howling wastes of nihilism?
The abusers HAVE to be “changed”. The victims HAVE to forgive – and utterly forget. If not… Well, what would happen to God?
Tess wrote:
The law does NOT regard it as consensual, given Billy’s age.
Dee, you can call me any time this morning after 10 your time or this evening. I have court this afternoon.
Loren Haas wrote:
Loren, if you’ll forgive my sounding simplistic here, ISTM that you are the good, Christ-centered program that you don’t have to apologise for.
Paul referred to the churches as his “living epistles”, and (crucially) Jesus himself gave, not a book, but the Holy Spirit – which is to say, himself. * If you keep at it, stay humble and teachable, respect the evidence (or “fruit” as the NT usually calls it), etc – then nobody will ever publish a program that is better than you are.
* The bible came later, and by the testimony of its own written words, was never intended to be the idol that evangelicals have made it. Whatever else goes on between John Macarthur et al and God, THAT point at least has escaped them, to disastrous effect.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Amen.
Bill M wrote:
Yeah, reading that paragraph made me want to vomit. Preferably on Ramey and his minions, with a little extra on Jay Adams, just for dreaming up the quackery that is nouthetic counselling.
These clowns want to insist that they’re “biblical” in their counsel?
“Like one who takes away a garment on a cold day,
or like vinegar poured on a wound,
is one who sings songs to a heavy heart.” Prov. 25:20
They need to consider this before trying to force people in mourning to be all “happy happy joy joy”.
Eagle wrote:
Oh the arrogance.
It boggles.
mirele wrote:
No, not in the State of Texas. This is child rape as Texas Law calls it, plain and simple.
Two points:
(1) – There is no such thing as “biblical authority” as these pastors (alleged) claim to have. Their favorite verse, Hebrews 13:17, is not referring to “ministers”. It’s referring to civic authorities. The phrase “watch for your souls” should be “watch for your lives”. There is no human who is responsible for another’s soul. That’s God’s territory.
(2) – These false “authorities” are guilty of witchcraft. They have turned the Bible into a spellbook, invoking verses as incantations they hope will magically mold events to their wills. They are power-mad frauds hiding behind “freedom of religion”.
Bill M wrote:
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2009/01/word-or-two-from-job-on-bitterness.html
Bill M wrote:
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/02/keep-sweet-conspiracy.html
Bill M wrote:
And one more.
Sorry for all the links. But as people are saying, this is a very serious problem within the church. People are not allowed their own natural response to trauma and tragedy. They must behave like little robot Stepford wives, kids, even husbands. And this IS monstrous.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/02/men-defining-sweet-for-women.html
Uncle Dad wrote:
I agree, as a survivor of the Faith Movement and a watcher of the hierarchy movement.
That is not a church. It is a cult book club. Wickedness. And the email response from GTY?! Despicable. In fact, quite Satanic.
When Joe confessed to Sodomy zing Billy he told the district he is a homosexual and that Billy was to! He failed in this because he lured billy to the back closet once he got there he pushed billy down stuck a sharp object into his back as he pulled billy up he then put the object to bilkys throat (billy believed it was a knife) he told billy ” if you scream I’m going to waste you”! Joe threatened to kill billys mother if he screamed or told me! So where does KEN RAMEY get off or Mike Goins, Tyler Jacobs, Tim Kemrite,the elders (E) , the deacons or anyone making this about Billy’s sexuality? Are these people out of their minds? You see preditors always blame their victims! He had to reduce the gravity of the rape to make it appear to be consensual so that Joe could get away with hiding how violent his assault was and that he is dangerous. I told KEN RAMEY that the next child joe rapes it will be KEN RAMEY’S FAULT!!!!! I believe this and know it to be true. All he did was make joe a better preditor along with the parents. Any opportunity joe got in taking the plea deal for counseling and sex offender program, those in Joes life discarded it and ruined it for joe to benefit from it! Shame on you Ken Ramey!!!! By the way Ken Ramey billy says ” UNTIL KEN APOLOGIZES PUBLICALLY, FORGET ABOUT IT “!Beakerj wrote:
Bill M wrote:
I remember this specific line in an Elizabeth Elliott book. The said we must mourn *silently*, without talking about it, (IIRC) to counter the worldly idea of blaring our pain before the world. I’ll never forget the shame that came from reading that. 🙁 I can’t IMAGINE telling a SEX ABUSE SURVIVOR something like that. 🙁
@ marquis:
Joe is walking around free? He is extremely violent and disturbed. Nothing “joyful” about that. If he is that evil at 15 and judging by the way this played out he has had other victims or violence in his past.
I don’t even know what to say. Shauna and Billy we not only believe you we also note that no evidence has been presented to show that either of you has done anything wrong at all. These people who are doing this to you a guilty of religious malpractice at least and possible much harsher words could and should be used for what they have tried to do to you all. You are both strong people. God bless you both.
I do not think that these churches can be helped or educated or shown how to do better because there is no evidence that they want to do better. IMO they have to be run out of business-totally. They are based on lies and distortions and apparently they like it that way.
Hey all
There has been some scuttlebutt around the internet that if I just checked IP addresses on incoming comments that I would know if someone is posting from a particular area or it it is the same person. That is not true in many instances since IPs change with devices and where they are used.
@ Lydia:
Well said.
I am deeply disturbed by this church going on and on about Billy’s sexuality. That is not the issue. He was raped. It is important to realize that in some of these circles the worst sin in the world is being homosexual. Someone can rape, cheat, abuse, be a racist, etc and it does not add up to their view of the most horrible sin of all-homosexuality.I find this entire line of questioning on the part of church members bizarre.
@ SarahW:
That should have been the closing line for the post!
@ Infuriated Reader:
Hey, I just remembered something. Isn’t Joe and his family originally from Ohio? Is that where Joe is living now? He left Montgomery. Could someone confirm that.
I did check the IP address of this particular comment. It is coming from Sandusky Ohio. Why does the comment coming from Sandusky seem rather appropriate? ….
This is Joe or one of his family members who is,responding to my post. Stalked joe??? Hmmm really? ? That’s why I kept myself and my son as far away from them as possible and refused to let ken get us in the same room with joe, doesn’t sound like stalking when I’m protecting billy. Remember joe plead guilty to RAPE and was given probation he was free to walk the streets! We live in a small community so how is it stalking when I walk into the only Walmart in Montgomery where I shopped regularly and joe and his mother are there? Sorry but the protective order states joe needs to leave immediately! !!!! Not the victim not billy! Who gets preference when billy is in 6th grade now and joe is in 10th and before montgomery school district expelled joe for pleading guilty there was a field trip billy went on to the high school directly related to Joe being in band I say I HAD A HUGE PROBLEM WITH THAT!!!! NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT! SO of course I went to the school district and raised kane!!! At that time joe was able to slip underthe radar and the school district was never informed of joe raping billy!!!! This was supposed to happen within 24 hrs of joe being charged and arrested. So joe was in school while he was finally admitting to the rape. This not stalking this is ensuring JOE does no mare damage to BILLY! I caught joe and his mother Debbie attempting to lie to the school district to try to keep joe in school on an appeal process they were going through. Joe and debbie called billy and shauna liers AFTER HE PLEAD GUILTY AND TOOK THE PLEA DEAL!!!! Nice try Joe and Joes family on this post!Infuriated Reader wrote:
My head hurts ….. really, it does. My heart hurts, too. The physical pain combined with the anger I am feeling right now makes it difficult for me to type very much in the realm of coherence. But, I was wondering, and I just want to ask…………
If I took Ken Ramey, or some of his ilk, down to the hunting cabin in the woods, where no one could hear him scream ………. If I tied him up, cut his garments off, used a battery-powered sander and a big bottle of rubbing alcohol on his hide, applied poison ivy to his private parts …….. maybe did a few other things ……… (Nothing I can think of compares to the evil that was perpetrated on Billy, both by Joe and the church!)
Would Ramey simply leave discipline in the hands of my church? Would he only seek nouthetic counseling?
Ok Dee it’s time to release JOES PLEA DEAL TWO COUNTS OF aggravated sexual assault on a minor child under the age of 14 in the 1ST DEGREE OF SODOMY AND ORAL!!! JOE TOOK THE PLEA DEAL BECAUSE HE IS GUILTY AND WENT INTO A SEX OFFENDER PROGRAM! !!!! NOT BILLY END OF STORY marquis wrote:
XianJaneway wrote:
Perhaps Elisabeth could do that when her husband died an evangelical hero. However, had her husband been raped and tortured and accused of being a spy and held in a prison, I bet she would have been quite vocal about it.
Elisabeth did not qualify her statement. Not all pain is the same. When my daughter was suffering with her brain tumor, everyone was so nice to me-bringing me meals and helping babysit my newborn son and other daughter. People in various churches prayed for us. My daughter was given more stuffed animals, dolls, etc. and I will always appreciate that.
Now, look at Shauna and Billy. They are ostracized, accused, and living on the financial edge. Shauna works so hard during the day so she can always be home for Billy. There are a few kind people in her area. But Billy sure has not experienced support in his pain like we did when my daughter was sick. My heart goes out to them.
I know roughly how Shauna feels. When my daughter was undergoing her two surgeries, I wanted so much to take the pain for her but I couldn’t. I felt so helpless. I know that is what Shauna feels as well.
She told me how hard it has been to be a single mother. He husband left them when Billy was little. She wanted nothing more than to protect Billy and help him achieve as best as he can. She has sacrificed greatly. She has a college education and hopes to be able to go to law school one day. In the meantime, she cleans houses and takes care of horses and schedules everything around the needs of her son.
Billy and Shauna are obviously close. I had a chance to talk with him and he is a delightful young man. He told me he wished I had come up with a cooler name for him than Billy but by then it was too late. 😉
@ marquis:
Did you send me the plea deal? I remember seeing it. I would love to post it but we have to black out Joe’s name.
@ marquis:
Well, I can add “selfish worms” to the list of “What people are saying about the TWW!”
okrapod wrote:
That is correct. Remember, I even called the church to ask for a statement. No response.
Nancy2 wrote:
Now that is making a point? I bet Ramey would report you forthwith and hire more bodyguards than he has presently.
I just want to reiterate what I said on a previous thread, to make sure Shauna and Billy see it:
“marquis,
I believe you. I believe Billy. I think we all believe you. I cannot imagine what you and Billy have been through. You are both extremely strong and courageous — Billy in particular. He was raped by a peer that he trusted, then blamed and accused by adults that he trusted. Most adults would be too embarrassed and ashamed to come forward and publicly share that sort of abuse. Yet, Billy has the wisdom to know that he is innocent and that he is not the one who deserves to be blamed in any way for what happened, and the courage to come forward about it. I admire him. You have an intelligent, wonderful son, and he has a great mom! You are both setting wonderful examples for the rest of the world.
PS: Make sure Billy reads this. I mean what I said.
GO BILLY! You may have been a victim, but you are a hero now!”
@ marquis:
Shauna
You are amongst friends now. We believe you and we are asking the church to respond. I believe that Ken Ramey really, really screwed this one up. Think Matt Chandler. It is time for a huge MEA CULPA. Then, the church members should be asked to be servants and help you and billy during this time. It is what Jesus would do.
Christians who really get the Gospel (are you listening Lakeside Bible Church?) would admit that this was mishandled and seek to make it right. It is called humbling yourselves.
okrapod wrote:
That is my position, too.
Infuriated Reader wrote:
We’ll see you at judgment day then.
It may not turn out as you hope.
That’s find black out billy’s to and it’s signed by the attorneys the judge and joe it’s a court issued document @ Beth D:
dee wrote:
dee wrote:
Why? Is this some aspect of Texas law about which I know nothing? (not an expert by any stretch in this area of the law)
Bill M wrote:
That is the Abuser, hitting more & harder because the victim doesn’t Praise Him for the abuse.
Which is worse: Getting your head broken or getting your head broken while the headbreaker lectures you about his Great Concern and Compassion?
@ Law Prof:
Is it because he is a minor?
Martos wrote:
I don’t see any difference between Nouthetics and Dianetics, between “Biblical(TM) Counseling” and Scientology Auditing.
And both have set their faces like rabid flint against mainstream/secular psychology and counseling. Bad-mouthing the competition like a quack bad-mouthing mainstream medicine?
Beakerj wrote:
Billy was the Penetrated on the Bottom.
Joe was the Penetrator on the Top.
Same dynamic as a prison rape, where the rapist is even more of a Man because he “Made a Woman out of him.”
Dom & Sub, Top & Bottom in an Animal Forced Dominance Display.
Beakerj wrote:
Church Lady scolding oh-so-righteously with wagging finger.
Bridget wrote:
I don’t know, because not every state makes these things non-public. Just don’t know enough about TX law to say. Dee must know or she wouldn’t have said it had to be blacked out–or perhaps she’s doing this on behalf of Shauna or it’s just a policy of TWW.
Mara wrote:
Whatever would God do on J-day without Lakeside Bible’s ManaGAWD at His right hand to tell Him who is REALLY a Christian and who isn’t? God is SOOOOO lucky to have Pastor Grima Wormtongue speaking for Him.
Uncle Dad wrote:
“Let the Sorcerer by the right Incantations summon and bind the Spirit to do the Sorcerer’s Will…”
The basic difference between Religion and Magick (Crowley spelling deliberate) is that in Magick, the mortal Sorcerer is the one calling the shots, in control of the Supernatural Forces or Beings. Name it (with the proper incantations) and Claim it.
Mara wrote:
Don’t you know “Infuriated Reader” is GAWD’s Speshul Pet?
Look at his Righteousness(TM)!
The only one Righteous(TM) enough to make it to Heaven, where he gets to look down from his catered box seat at everyone else in Hell and gloat gloat gloat!
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, it is always amazing to me how much we have in common ( just not our political views). It was not based on Christianity in my house, but strong emotion was definitely frowned upon. Especially anger. My brother and I never learned how to be angry, deal with the problem and move on. We sat on our anger until it exploded. in his case, he exploded on the world around him. i exploded internally and hurt myself.
First- to Shauna and Billy nothing I can say will take the pain away. I am so sorry that you, Billy, were tormented both by Joe and then the church. Shauna, as a mother, nothing is worst than seeing you child hurt, maligned and shamed. However, in the aftermath your church elders really Showed Their Butts! Their reputation, lust for power and need to always be right further compounded your pain. That is unforgivable!
They are digging themselves a deeper hole!! They throw out one of the “Christian” trigger words, “homosexual “( the other is abortion) and think that will shame a survivor into silence. Even after Joe was found guilty of rape! That implies that to them it was ok to attack a young boy if they say he is gay.
Billy, I know you are not gay, but let me tell you a secret. Many young teen boys experiment sexually on each other while young, but are really straight. This is not unusual or deviant behavior. My guess is at least one or more of the leaders in your church experimented with other boys (mutually) when they were young. Now as a men he/they is projecting all his crap onto you. Rather than seeing your situation as rape, he eases his own conflicted conscience by dismissing Joe’s deviant and cruel action towards you as something benign. Joe’s attack on you has little to do with sex and everything to do with expressing sadistic power and dominance.
This is where your church has their head in the sand. They are so rigid in their belief system that when something goes wrong, they freak and blame the most convenient person, the person with the least power, the victim. Billy, you have a strong mother who is making very smart decisions now. Your good choices in who to trust will help with the healing. Meanwhile, if these foolish men do not learn from their ridiculous and cruel actions-believe me, there will be more victims in the future. That, along with your pain justs breaks my heart.
God forgive my big mouth, but to Ken and all his kind who have revictimized Billy and Shauna-a BIG #%^! (ed.) YOU! Sorry but that felt good.
This is billy stop hiding behind a wall and come out with the truth retard you raped me and u no what I grew from that now I am a better man than you and boy do I have words to say but the evidence in front of you so shut the hell up and stop hiding behind that stone wall before I knock it down like the walls of Jericho @ Beth D:
@ marquis:
Mara wrote:
I wonder if it isn’t a form of the totalitarian niceness that I think Lydia coined? Everything needs to be neat and orderly in your church. There can be no suffering or victims of injustice, and if there are, they need to quickly tell their story how they rose above it and now live a triumphal life. At the root it appears to very similar to the nonsensical prosperity gospel.
Lydia wrote:
This is all of that rabid NeoCalvinism bunk that these Pastor John MacArthur-ite churches/Masters’ Seminary graduates (California) and others like them espouse:
That God permitted this really bad thing to happen to you and He knew it was going to happen. So count it all joy. Don’t cry. Don’t have bad feelings. Don’t be angry.
It’s like karma from the Eastern religions.
Bill M wrote:
Another approach would be to unpack those Bible-bat verses that are being MISused to promote this false teaching in the first place.
Context is not their friend in this matter.
For example they misuse Isaiah 43:18
“Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.”
Has NOTHING to do with “moving on and forgetting”.
Has NOTHING to do with never thinking of or speaking about past problems/issues/abuses/traumas.
Context: Isaiah is referencing God’s former deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, speaking to the Jews during their Babylonian captivity.
What is the “former things” and the “things of the past”?
God delivering Israel out of Egypt. (So, NOTHING to do with forgetting about pain.)
Why is God telling them not to dwell on those things?
Because He is going to do something even bigger than that.
“See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.
Isaiah is prophesying both the coming deliverance of Israel from Babylon’s captivity and the coming of Messiah.
Did God actually want them to STOP remembering that He had delivered them from Egypt?
No. (Those who rip this random verse out of context upon which they build their ‘literal’ towers of Babel completely miss the hyperbole.)
Because hundreds of years later:
Jude 1:5 – “Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt,…”.
So, these ‘Biblical counselors’ are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what this verse is about.
It is NOT an instruction to hurry up and get over and forget your pain. It was an encouragement to an enslaved people that He Who had delivered them in the past, was going to deliver them again in such a way as to eclipse that earlier deliverance from Egypt.
Also, one Bible-bat to reciprocate to these ‘Biblical counselors’ would be to tell them
“You sound just like Job’s friends.”
Job’s friends at least had the decency to:
“Then they sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights. No one said a word to him, because they saw how great his suffering was.
And then they opened their mouths…
@ marquis:
Normally, I would delete a couple of words from such a comment. However, I can assure our readers that this was written by Billy himself since he alerted me. Please see the pain that is being expressed to the person who left that horrible comment.
@ Ann:
beautiful, beautiful comment. Thank you.
Bill M wrote:
This is a byproduct of not opening the Bible and simply reading it, relying on the Holy Spirit and the advice of friends with whom you have a peer relationship to understand it, but instead giving your will over to the type of person who thinks they have the right to rule over it. Invariably the person who thinks they have that kind of authority is at best a blinded fool, at worst a sadistic monster.
If people just read the Bible simply, for what it is, it’d leap out at them that it’s all about people with big problems, dealing with them openly, crying with them, being angry at injustices, being real about what’s inside you and shouts from rooftops, and all against secret counsels, circling the wagons, faking goodness, protecting the public image.
The only way you get a situation like apparently what’s happening at LBC is when people have placed their trust in a man who doesn’t merit a bit of it and have allowed him to tell them what the Bible says, and always he’s going to shade it so that it says just what serves him best. When a church is best served by obfuscation and secrets, it’s not a church.
Infuriated Reader wrote:
I think “Infuriated” employed almost all the gambits, shaming, silencing, sowing doubt, misdirection, accusations of slander, the classic “you don’t have the whole story”, blaming the victim, and all topped off with their viciously judgmental “I hope you burn”. It was a tour de force and definitely NOT attractive.
Dee if you write a book, this could be your textbook example. “Reader” could do well to be infuriated, I am also, but they side with the abusers and are infuriated with those calling for justice.
Search through the bible for passages on justice, “Infuriated reader” is often typified and is the one judged harshly.
Bill M wrote:
Infuriated Reader sounded just like what I’d imagine a demon would say to one who followed Jesus. That kind of hate reminds me of Jesus telling us that it’s what comes out of a person that makes them foul.
Marquis, in a lengthy comment at 8:53 a.m. you said:
“Joe threatened to kill billys mother if he screamed or told me!”
So Joe threatened to kill you? Am I understanding this correctly? Did Billy include that in his testimony? ( Wonder if that’s legally actionable.)
Eeyore wrote:
There is a third way. (Not that I mean to go too far away from your original intent but thought this may be of interest):
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Scriptures?
https://bible.org/seriespage/father-son-and-holy-scriptures
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I know he/she thinks so.
Lydia wrote:
Why didn’t the court order Joe to a treatment center for violent, young offenders?
BL wrote:
Funny you mention this, we observe Jewish holidays, such as the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover, which are coming up next month, we pay no attention to Christian ones. God was so about remembering things, even those that are painful memmories, that He instituted the Passover meal, in which Jews are commanded to eat bitter herbs, the maror, which was almost certainly part of the meal for the Hebrews to remember the pain of captivity in Egypt. This was to be eaten until the end of time.
So the only meal that the Lord commands us to eat in the entire Bible contains an element specifically intended to be a remembrance of pain and suffering, and He commanded that it be eaten by people forever, even those who were never slaves, to remember their bitterness.
These smiley face Christians are either not Christians at all or are Christians who have just stopped caring what the Bible says.
mirele wrote:
Yes, that alone should be a determining factor.
Another thing too is Billy’s delayed development. On a prior thread, Shauna related an experience where Joe kept trying to talk raunchy sex stuff with Billy when they had a play date, and most of what Joe said seemed to fly over Billy’s head.
You have a person who may not be able to fully comprehend sexuality to start with being groomed or hit on by someone who does (albeit the older boy has a distorted, troubled understanding).
@ dee:
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn’t understand the comment at face value. Now I do.
You go! Billy!
Lydia wrote:
It was said on a previous thread that Joe admitted (to Billy I think?) that he had attacked two different young girls.
dee wrote:
Even if the victim were homosexual in orientation (in this case it is not so), but even if the victim were, having a sharp object put to one’s throat, being told one’s mother will be harmed, etc, are threats – it is coerced sex. There was nothing consensual about what happened.
(And of course, there is a matter of age difference, the victim in this situation is developmentally delayed, etc).
This is sort of like the “perfect victim” cliche’ adult or teen women rape victims go through – the only “acceptable” victim is a hetero virgin lady who was dressed from head to toe in a burka outfit while out and about in broad daylight, when attacked.
If, however, you are a woman who previously had sex, or is out after dark, or wore a mini-skirt, or drank a beer, and get attacked, well, then, you were supposedly “asking for it” and you bear some blame for your own attack.
You don’t meet the criteria of the “perfect victim,” so you don’t deserve justice or empathy, is how that goes. This same mentality sort of seems to be at work in Billy’s case with Ramey and this horrible church.
This is my son letting his rapist know that he didn’t break him down and that he is stronger and the truth will prevail. So proud of my boy! Beyond proud actually! !! Thank you dee. @ Beth D:
dee wrote:
@ Law Prof:
Joe is a minor, and so there are some protections for his identity, as a juvenile offender.
Thank you Billy for posting a comment. So many victims aren’t allowed to voice their anger and pain. You are speaking not only for yourself, but for those who can’t stand up for themselves. You are a true man in my eyes!
Thank you Deb and Dee for giving Billy a space to speak back those abuse their power. Now Billy can experience the value and power of his own voice! Xoxo to all of you!
An Attorney wrote:
Thanks, OK, understood, I know that’s the case in some jurisdictions. Are juvenile records sealed in all? Again, not my area of expertise.
BTW, if Joe is on probation, there is probably a condition to that probation that he is not to contact Billy, nor be on any public medium of communication where Billy can see it. If Joe commented here, his probation likely could be revoked.
marquis wrote:
Billy,
I definitely agree with you!
I would say that you are a better man than Ken Ramey and the elders at Lakeside.
I pray that the Lord gives you the strength and a means to cope with the evil acts that have been done to you, and to your mom. I hope you use your experiences to inform and educate others, as you are already doing. You have the power to help others, and I believe you are already putting that power to good use.
If you are ever in Western Kentucky or Northwestern Tennessee, or if I am ever in your area of Texas, I would be honored to actually meet you and your mom!
Hi TWW,
If this isn’t an appropriate place to put this, please let me know. I will be happy to post it in the discussions section. I was laid off at my job last week, and my lease ends at the end of April. Unfortunately, I don’t have the option to renew as my landlord has someone lined up to take my place. I applied for unemployment benefits, and I won’t hear back about the results until late next week at the earliest. I have been applying in state (Colorado) and out of state closer to my parents (Texas and Louisiana). I have enough money saved up for next month’s rent, bills and food. However, I don’t have the funds to move, whether that’s stay in Colorado or move out of state. I started a Go Fund Me page to raise money for my move, since I have to be out of my current place by the end of next month. I also appreciate prayers from people, as I have been experiencing anxiety and depression about this situation. Here is the link to my Go Fund Me page: gofundme.com/95ta66hg.
Thank you, Christina
Joe got 1 year of probation he completed it and as a result does not have to register as a sex offender. I wasn’t pleased with it but let me say given the situation billy was spared an awful trial which would have been more traumatic at that time we allowed the plea with no trial because the end result would have been the same probation and sex offender program. What shouldhave been taken seriously by ken, the elders, the parents, and joe was scoffed at and all they did was make joe a better preditor not having learned nothing. In spite of thus please know that the law,worked for billy they believed and some consequence was divied out! Joe got exposed and KEN RAMEY couldn’t do a DARN THING TO KEEP THAT FROM HAPPENING! @ Beth D:
An Attorney wrote:
Law Prof wrote:
Some are Christians, some are not.
Some are deceived, some are purposely deceiving.
Leaders who have promulgated lies and followers who have believed those lies. Until one gets hit between the eyes with reality.
Churchianity is Big Business – but then, organized religion has always been a ripe field for the greedy – both leaders and followers.
Except in those times/places where actually being a Christian is not a means of worldly gain.
“From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.”
Greed – for those leading it.
Greed – for those who keep following it.
Churchianity is selling a product.
And the leaders tell us that obeying them and consuming their product will mean that all will be well with us.
Which means that whenever a member has a problem THAT WILL NOT GO AWAY AND WHO KEEPS SQUEAKING ABOUT IT, then there are only 2 available remedies for your problem –
You MUST obey them MORE, and you MUST CONSUME MORE OF THEIR PRODUCT.
All the other minions in the pews, who are obeying the church leaders and consuming the church leaders’ product so that all will be well with them – will look at the member with a problem that will not go away as the spiritual equivalent of Typhoid Mary.
And all the Typhoid Marys have to be denigrated for not obeying and consuming the product ENOUGH, and they must be removed before their contagion grows and infests others.
dee wrote:
Bless this dear Mama and her son! Shauna would make a great attorney. Perhaps the law school that admitted Karen H. (The Village Church, TX debacle), provided her with scholarships and the like, might help Shauna.
Bill M wrote:
OCD Church. A place for everything and everything in it’s place so as not to ruffle the delicate internal balance of the Pastor’s ego.
@ Infuriated Reader:
This is the result of thought Reform. Infuriated reader does not even realize they have been successfully indoctrinated…at church!
What ‘Joe’ did to Billy was criminal. ‘Reconcilation’ is not an appropriate response following a criminal rape, so I don’t understand Ramey’s thinking at all here.
As for Ramey’s Church, doesn’t he realize that ‘Joe’ is a threat to other children?????
There is so very much wrong here, but I do know that ‘Joe’ needs to answer to the law. Nothing should prevent that from happening.
“Right after the rape, Ramey told Shauna that only the church could adequately counsel Billy and the perpetrator. He reportedly went to court to ask the judge to allow the church to do the counseling for the two families.The judge said he could not counsel both families.”
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Why is Ken Ramey approaching the judge without the consent of the victim? This is absurd. Can you imagine a different unrelated party in ANY other profession going to a judge presiding over a rape case and saying “I think you should let me counsel both the victim and the offender?” How does he not see this as a conflict of interest? How could he possibly remain objective towards both parties? It’s pretty clear that Ramey’s only goal was minimizing this entire tragedy.
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As a note to anyone else who has a friend or family member who is a victim of a sex crime in the future: learn your rights. Most states have a Victim’s Bill of Rights. Read that cover to cover. Then read it again. Then have friends and family members and an attorney, if you can afford one, read it and explain it back to you as well. Larger prosecutors offices have victim advocates on staff. Many are volunteers who do the job out of love and concern. They are very dedicated individuals who know the ins and outs of the system. Stay in close contact with that person throughout the entirety of your case.
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The prosecutor should have made it more clear to Ms Marquis that all counseling costs past, present and future (within reason) would be approved by the judge. It comes down to filling out a simple form. Mentally disabled victims are afforded greater protection in the state of Texas. The judge would have likely been generous had this request been submitted. This is a travesty of justice that this did not occur in this case. Sadly, it happens all too often because the victims are in a state of shell shock after the crime. They aren’t thinking clearly. Emotionally and mentally they tend to shut down for the sake of self-preservation. That’s why victims advocates are so important. Please, please urge victims to pursue this.
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God bless that judge for not conceding to Ramey’s outrageous request. I can’t help but wonder why the prosecutor and church counselor (who should be familiar with sex crime cases) assigned to Billy and Ms Marquis did not strongly encourage the mother to attend the Sentencing Hearing and make a statement. They should have encouraged Ms Marquis and all of Billy’s other relatives to fill out that courtroom. Please understand that judges are affected by attendance at these things. They are elected officials and human beings. When they can see that the people care about a case, they are affected by the turn-out. If it is acceptable to the victim’s family, invite the press as well. Judges can’t afford to ignore the press. I know this is extremely stressful, but they are typically worth it. If you have an advocate they will sit with you and support you throughout the hearing. The hearings are usually less than a few hours but this time commitment will affect both the sentence AND the post release supervision order. When it comes to sexual predators both are extremely important. Ask the people of Moscow, ID.
.
Every victim is entitled to fill out a Victim Impact Statement. However, these are remarkably short forms (the original box to write in is often under a page long) and they are often drafted shortly after the crime takes place when people are still in the state of shock. Do not ever hesitate to amend your statement as you see fit at any point right up till the day of sentencing. And you are permitted to make it as long as you please, although keeping it on point helps the judge.
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Much of the trauma doesn’t sink in until much later so it helps victims to revisit their initial statement with new information. Also, have as many friends and relatives as you can send in letters to the judge as well, describing the effects the crimes have observably had on the victim, the victim’s family and themselves (if applicable). If you’re not sure what to write, there are samples online. The defense will be doing the same, soliciting letters from everyone including the offender’s Kindergarten teacher, trying to get a reduced sentence. Familiarize yourself with the rules of engagement and try to keep the field level. The “Joes” are working every angle they can.
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These letters should be sent to the prosecutor. As long as they contain personal knowledge of the case, the parties involved and manifestations that you have personally witnessed, it is relevant. The judge must read it and they are generally taken quite seriously.
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In general, very few people attend sentencing hearings and very few people write to the judges. So the judge does pay attention to the few people who do participate. Letters in support of the criminal are public record. Letters in support of the victim are generally not. The few voices that come forward do make a difference. The abusive cult leader of Teen Mania, Ron Luce, used to always say “the people who shape our culture are the ones who speak the loudest”. The bad guys all know this. Make sure the good guys get equal time.
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“Joe” will offend again. And when he does, perhaps Ms Marquis will be able to offer her testimony at that sentencing hearing. Although past crimes cannot be brought up during a criminal proceeding, they are not just fair game but considered highly relevant to sentencing. I hope she will consider taking an active role in this. She is clearly a very, very strong woman who has something very important to say. If readers ever hear of a similar case, please make this point to the parties involved.
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Ms Marquis, I am so, so, so sorry that you were failed by the system. This is not your fault. It may not feel like it right now but everything you are writing and allowing to be written by the TWW will help others in the future. Your courage is breathtaking. The mishandling of this grievous situation is infuriating and heartbreaking. Thank you for sharing so that others will be helped.
LT wrote:
Past crimes often are admissible during a criminal proceeding; if they’re sufficiently similar to the present case, they can be admitted as establishing a common pattern. This would be something dealt with in a pretrial hearing, but juries do end up hearing such evidence on many occasions.
It’s pretty sick for a counselor to report someone for church discipline for anything, but especially for being angry.
I guess it’s easy to be a counselor when no one can be vulnerable or honest with you for fear of being punished. You can just sit there and say- “Go in peace and be warm and well fed!” To everyone who walks through your door . .
Hilary Swank, Ice-T, Courteney Cox appear in powerful PSA for male sexual assault victims
http://www.people.com/article/hilary-swank-courteney-cox-psa-male-sexual-assault-victims
@Christina,
I will post some ideas for you on the Open Discussion thread.
@ Infuriated Reader:
I 100000% agree; I’m infurtigated too at the antics of this so-called “bisecting Christian Warts” site.
Lakeside Biblechurch is a nointed man of God!!! You cant Admit it!!!! because Your all just biter and jellies. If your talking about Ken ramy so much its just making him famous, and god makes peoepl famus because he is PLEASED with them and wants them to preach the Good News of the Bible more and more! Your slanderism is just from God to make Ren Kamey famous but its still of the devil too, you cant understand this but sometimes the devil is Gods will.
If GOd had made YOU prophets h’ed have made you rich and famos two, becuase GOd needs rich people to spread his true gospel, thats why YOU should all be titheing to Ken Remy instead of tryig to destroy him. (The bible TRUTH is that Jesus was rich, scritpure reveals to us that Jesus had his own helicopter but you cant understand that spritcure teaching because of your bittenness and rebelion.)
I prey on you, that God gives you all the humbility to understand and accept this true mess age from him.
From:
A. Jerk
P.S. God has reveled to me that you shoudl all send me money because i brouhgt his WORd to you. But i knwo you wont obey him, which prooves how sinful you are.
Martos wrote:
Ah yes, the widow who keeps going back to the “unjust judge.” He finally gets sick of listening and grants her request.
Why did the widow talk so much, apparently telling her story over and over? Who was the opponent about whom she complained to the judge? We tend to dismiss the widow as a nag who might not have deserved the judge’s help. Perhaps instead she was deeply wounded and greatly deserving.
I am now wondering if KEN RAMEY violated billy’s rights by showing up to Joes bond hearing and attempting to interfere with billy’s rights as a victim of a crime? I sure didn’t give consent for him to speak for my son nor did I know he did this until a week later!!!!! If he did this to protect his own intrests then he needs to be afraid of RICO ( what was used against criminal organizations) dee posted on it!@ Beth D:
Jeff S wrote:
Sick just about sums this up.
mirele wrote:
That’s correct, of course. However, the adults who question kids often set up conditions that are impossible to meet. I know one case in which the child was asked if he was a willing participant, or if anyone else would say he was a willing participant.
Think about that. The child who reported bad sexual behavior was asked if anybody else might say he did not express unwillingness. If he silently endured the activity, or hid his horror, or got lured into a fun-looking situation that later turned into a nightmare, or didn’t want to make enemies, then he was “willing.” And, of course, somebody else could simply lie about him.
In that case, at least the activity was exposed and extinguished. But that child, who was brave enough to come forward, learned fear of peers and mistrust of adults in authority.
Nouthetic Counseling has been one of the most damaging developments to come out of 20th century Christian fundamentalism.
It blows my mind that a random guy (Jay Adams) – with literally no formal education in psychology or therapy – can pull such a dangerous method of “counseling” out of his posterior, and thousands of Christians can embrace it so wholeheartedly, and even militantly.
In my view, this phenomenon speaks to a deeper issue within American Christianity, in the sense that Jay Adams must have touched on some pressure points for many people.
Sadly, many of the people who need mental healthcare the most are the very people least likely to accept or pursue it. In my experience some of the staunchest advocates of nouthetic counseling are some of the most mentally unwell people that I have met.
@ Mr.H:
Excellent observation. If we just piece together what we observe while knowing that we really don’t know just a terribly lot about people actually, we do know that in therapy, and that would be actually therapy with a professional therapist with degrees and certificates and licenses, people are faced with the difficult task of taking a long look at some things which are difficult and painful to see about themselves and about their situations. They have to work through stuff and admit stuff to themselves and face realities and quit making excuses and quit avoiding the difficult tasks of recovery.
It seems to me that nouthetic counseling lets people avoid most of this. They seem to have to agree to some idea that they themselves are generically sinful and fail to be perfect, and they seem to have to subjugate themselves ever deeply to other people’s authority and to increasingly let other people tell them what to do. These all look like ways to avoid the hard work of therapy. If the person being counseled can be brought to a position where they basically think they are worthless and helpless and perhaps have not even been chosen by God as one of the elect then as bad as that is they still do not have to face their issues and work through to ways or become healthy and mature. Healthy and mature are scary at best and elusive at worst; perhaps it is easier to just stuff it all down and pretend that now everything is all good.
I can see why people would surely want to avoid some of the stuff that they have had to deal with. Just tell me that I am a sinner (I am of course) and just tell me that all I have to do is obey people (I do not of course) then I do not have to deal with myself or with reality. I can feel a certain default level of misery the rest of my life but never have to endure the searing pain which embracing reality can sometimes be.
That can’t be all there is to it, but it may well be part of the attraction nouthetic counseling.
@ Arnold Jerk:
That whole rant could have only looked even more authenticly unhinged if it had been written in a Ransom font, like on this page:
http://www.1001fonts.com/ransom-note-fonts.html
🙂
I hope it’s okay to repost this (the link below). I think I first posted this late last night, so it may have been overlooked by a lot of people if they visited today.
I found this book very helpful in my own life when subjected to some of the insensitive, horrible advice and theology similar to what Shauna received from her “biblical counselors” over things in my own life (such as “stop thinking about the past, stuff your feelings down” etc).
Several chapters from this book can be read for free here:
12 ‘Christian’ Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy: Relief from False Assumptions
https://books.google.com/books?id=R_sy4bBlUeEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=12+Christian+beliefs+that+can+drive+you+crazy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bI7NVObPB9LesAT_qIDgBw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=12%20Christian%20beliefs%20that%20can%20drive%20you%20crazy&f=false
@ Lydia:
I think it’s absolutely demented and perverse (and a perverted distortion of passages such as James 1:2) to tell people undergoing a heartache of some sort that they should be joyful about it.
I find that this OT verse is so very applicable to these warped ‘Happy Face’ Christians who beat sad, scared, or hurting people into wearing a fake smile:
Proverbs 25:20
Singing cheerful songs to a person with a heavy heart is like taking someone’s coat in cold weather or pouring vinegar in a wound.
I’d also say most Christians have not mastered this next verse, but insist on behaving like Job’s friends (the ones who blamed Job for his misfortune, which the text indicates was due to God allowing Satan to mess with Job):
Romans 12:15
…weep with those who weep.
Mr.H wrote:
I would not disagree – the focus of Nouthetic seems to be a variation of the question the disciples asked when Jesus came upon a man who was born blind.
“And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
Nouthetic counselors take this attitude into the mental health arena.
Notice what appears to be the leadership’s attitude toward Shauna:
Quoting from the OP:
“Pam told Shauna that she needed to find joy in the situation or she would be in sin.”
“Pam told her that she was blatantly sinning against God. Therefore, Pam would need to report her sin of anger for discipline.”
The abuse victim comes under ever-heightened scrutiny, while the perps do not.
Why?
Because the perps want everything to go away – just like the leaders do. So, perps nod their heads and are given a pass. Their sins were committed in the darkness, and no one sees them. THEY aren’t going to talk about it. THEY aren’t going to be seeking input from leadership. They aren’t running around with their tail feathers dragging and tears rolling down their face. THEY aren’t making waves.
They said they were sorry, nuff said!
The victims have the audacity to keep on bleeding out in front of others and occasionally whimpering – they’re not letting it go away! Why? BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN SIN.
Which sin must be eradicated, so leaches are applied to the bleeding victim, a muzzle is applied to their mouth, blinders to their eyes, and they are instructed to put on their happy face.
marquis wrote:
WHAT???!! That seems absurd. All of it. One year probabtion. I don’t get this at all. I know people who did more time for stealing a watch than Joe got for raping Billy. That is just wrong.
Jeff S wrote:
Extremely sick.
“slanderism”
I think Nick may have just invented a new word. Nick, thank you for giving me a good laugh.
@ nmgirl:
That does sound familiar to me. I was taught that having emotion or showing it was shameful or selfish.
Except for with my mother – she was fine with me going to her and expressing sadness, fear, etc, but she did encourage me to repress any and all anger, because nice Christian girls aren’t supposed to feel anger or show it.
I’ve had to learn in the last few year it’s okay to have and feel a host of emotions (including anger) and express them.
My dad and sister think it’s bad or wrong to have or show feelings, but they are both okay with getting angry and expressing it, but they have a cow if I express anger. (Double standard).
This is true overall in a lot of Christian churches or teachings. Christians often teach other Christians it’s disgraceful to express or show negative feelings.
When it comes to Pam the counselor, she would have made an excellent employee at IBLP headquarters. Gothard could have simply sent every young lady to Pam (once finished with them, of course).
BL wrote:
Exactly. The complaints of the victims are more damaging to the image of the church and the perceived effectiveness of the leader’s system than the abuse of the perpetrator. So, when you have no morals but you want to maintain control, you shut down the victim. If you don’t care about Jesus and truth, quite the easy thing to do.
You nailed it! It took about 6 months before billy wasn’t terrified to leave our home! We had a couple encounters with joe and his mother and the effects on billy were devistating. To thid,day billy still believes joe will get to him and follow through with his original threat to billy during the assault. This is why I say it really took great courage for billy to not only wipe the shame KEN RAMEY and my sons accusers continue to try to place on him but to place it right back where it belongs on Ken Ramey his perpetrator the perpetrators parents and anyone who shamefully accuses billy of anything regarding the rape!!! Billy is fighting back and this MAMA BEAR is COMING! !!!!@ Beth D:
Friend wrote:
@ LT:
wow — awesome information, LT. You have much experience, it appears.
and this:
“the people who shape our culture are the ones who speak the loudest”. The bad guys all know this. Make sure the good guys get equal time.
very poignant.
Go Marquis! Go Deebs! Continue to be strong and very courageous.
JeffT wrote:
+10,000
Here is your shiny new internet.
“Biblical counseling” is actually a sort of shibboleth for me. A person or organization who believes in this is idiotic and probably dangerous. I just smile and wave.
Infuriated Reader tried to come back under another name, using some of the most foul language that I have heard in a long time and that is saying something for the Internet. He, of course, was posting from Sandusky which is rather appropriate. His comment was not approved.
If this is Joe or his family, no wonder he is in lots of trouble. This is one sick person.
dee wrote:
Guess the Blog Queens and their court are hitting nerve.
Good.
Infuriated Reader,
You seem to be burning in some kind of hell on earth already. Seems we don’t need to wait till judgement day after all, cause I can smell smoke.
Mr.H wrote:
On one side of this issue is business. The rise of affordable therapy covered by insurance and the churches lack of control over that secular process. In the late 80’s many aspiring megas were adding counseling services and they were busy! Out of that came marriage counseling centers, family therapy, seminars, books, etc. The Christian self help market.
Then seminaries got on board with the whole “biblical” counseling method. Everything was headed toward a Christan world view. If I am not mistaken, I don’t think SBTS counseling graduates can even get state certification anymore. A huge change from 25 years ago.
Nouthetic counseling is especially diabolical for victims. Why would a rape victim need to focus on their sin and worm theology.
Mara wrote:
We’re not feelin’ any heat, though. Are we? Hmmm.
BL wrote:
Bingo. The perp and leaders have the same goals.
@ BL:
Absolutely. Nouthetic / Biblical Counseling can be summed up as Victim Blaming.
Every web site of theirs I’ve seen, a book by a Nouthetic Counselor I read years ago, focuses on the sins of the victim.
On one NC FAQ page I saw, they came straight out and said they were not interested in helping you get over any pain you were in, whatever it may be.
No, they said they were going to make you confront your own sin.
That’s all I need to know. I would run in the opposite direction if any counselor I was planning on seeing let me know every session we had was going to be about blaming me for everything rather than helping me cope or conquer whatever issue I had.
@ Arnold Jerk:
Arnold you need to work on your “American”. :o) hee hee.
Nouthetic counseling is very damaging. CLC used to use it – I”m not sure what model they use now. I knew people who went through their biblical counseling and felt very condemned. it was also extremely harmful to people with mental illness.
Yes I love these two blog queens!!! Billy read this and is smiling big time, thank you Dee by the way dee Billy just said this the walls of Jericho are coming down and they are crumbling!!!! @ Beth D:
dee wrote:
dee wrote:
And one raging angry one. That’s what happens when a sociopath is exposed and knows they can’t control it.
dee wrote:
I doubt it’s Joe, doesn’t sound like a teen, unlikely a teen would use a nom de plume like “infuriated Reader”. It’s obviously a profoundly disturbed, possibly just evil person with a major stake in the matter, though.
Shauna should file for a protective order against Joe and family so that if they ever show up nearby, the police will have cause to arrest Joe. It may not be possible to get a protective order against the church for continuing to smear Billy with false rumors, but I think that someone should alert them to the fact that gossip is a big sin in church discipline types of churches, and the who elder (oops, Elder) group is guilty of it.
According to attorney Richard Hammar with Church Law & Tax the No. 1 reason churches are sued every year is the Sexual Abuse of Minors. (Chart below from last year of his. Older youtube video. His new article and chart due in a few months.)
http://www.churchlawandtax.com/web/2015/june/top-5-reasons-churches-end-up-in-court.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQOUanZOe6o
For the attorneys who post here, especially those licensed in TX., what kinds of lawsuits could TX. pastors/elders face for their negligent acts in protecting children from sexual abuse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQOUanZOe6o
I was glancing through some of the comments after reading the article. The comparison by HUG of nouthetic counseling to Scientology auditing seems apt. Something else I noticed was the church nouthetic counsellors trying to deflect the topic of Billy’s rape by accusing Billy and Shauna of sin, so that they became more the perpetrators than Joe, Joe’s family and the church leadership. “Repent of your anger, “forgive Joe”, “it wasn’t a rape but consensual homosexual sex…..” My suspicion is that what happened to Billy and Shawna in this cult is not an isolated event but that there are other victims. There is an IFB church located in Indiana called Fairhaven Baptist Church. A couple years ago there was a large demonstration of victims of spiritual and physical abuse in front of this church. My suspicion is that more victims at LBC will make themselves known and that there will more publicizing of this abusive church. Maybe it will be in the form of the publicity of a demonstration.
Here is the TX. law mandating everyone to report any kind of suspected child abuse.
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/victims/childabuse.shtml
A failure to report can land a person in jail for up to 6-months and a fine of several thousand dollars. This isn’t funny. Why is Ken the pastor not professionally trained in how to handle this? Why is Pam the woman assigned from the church to “counsel” the victim’s mom not professionally trained in their state’s laws?
Their conduct is outrageous.
Former CLCer wrote:
Aside from the fact that it’s insensitive and cruel, I doubt it’s effective for most people. Why use something that’s not going to actually work?
Daisy wrote:
Reminds me of a recent post
http://babylonbee.com/news/mountain-climber-recovering-after-decision-to-let-go-and-let-god/
@ Bill M:
LOL.
Here’s another good one (not related to our first topic, but funny)
Steven Furtick Forced To Cancel Book-Signing Event After Getting Lost In His Mansion
http://babylonbee.com/news/steven-furtick-forced-cancel-book-signing-getting-lost-mansion/
BL wrote:
Thanks for the tips BL. It is also a reminder to simply ask what basis someone thinks they need to “move on”. I keep forgetting that listening works better than talking.
Bill M wrote:
I read about the rock climber. Is that guy for real? Not only does his exploit beggar belief, it also buggers any semblance of sanity rooted in reality.
Muff Potter wrote:
Rock climber story is from Babylon Bee:
“Your Trusted Source For Christian News Satire.”
@ Muff Potter:
The whole site is satire, there are a few misses but a lot enjoyably hits the mark.
@ Muff Potter:
On the subject of satire is a “demotivational” poster from despair.com. It described the “leadership” of my former church.
http://despair.com/collections/demotivators/products/demotivation
Bridget wrote:
Counselor gets a Good Little Party Member ribbon and a pat-pat-pat on the head from Pastor Himself.
Bridget wrote:
Maybe Pastor put some squeeze on the judge?
Just like Pastor of the Kirk in Moscow did for his Pet Pedo?
And this is Texas; Bible Belt and all that. “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”
marquis wrote:
Didn’t Boz T say that in all his years as a prosecutor specializing in child sexual abuse, he NEVER saw a church come down on the side of the victim? Always “RALLY ROUND THE PEDO, BOYS! GOD WILLS IT!”?
Christiane wrote:
Joe is Pastor’s Pet Pedo.
And that’s all that needs to be said.
Dear Shauna, I am so very, very sorry for what you have gone through and are still going through. I am heartbroken to see how badly your former church has treated you.
I feel that beneath the facade of a happy church there must be an awful can of worms for them to have reacted in such an extreme and ungodly way. This is not your fault or Billy’s, you have not done anything wrong. You are just innocent people who have stepped into a hornet’s nest unawares.
Pam reportedly said that when her own child was about 3-4 years old and in day care, the child came home with noticeable redness and inflammation in her vaginal area. The child showed it to her mother. Pam said she didn’t say anything about it. She just changed day care and moved on with life. She said everything was fine and she never dealt with it beyond those actions.
This is going to come back to bite this ignorant, foolish woman. If she thinks her child will be unaffected by what happened to her just because she is pretending it didn’t happen, she is sadly and grossly mistaken. It was also unconscionable for her to just walk away and allow someone to continue to molest other peoples’ children unopposed.
Is there something in the water these people are drinking??
Was this daycare tied to the church in any way? People from the church? I’m just curious.
Muff Potter wrote:
No.
As you’ve all spotted, neither is Arnold Jerk (although he does have good hair).
@ siteseer:
I wholeheartedly concur. I would love to know how many others have been hurt at this church but have been silenced through their so-called ‘biblical counseling’. 🙁
Praying for you Shauna and Billy.
@ Bill M:
Hilariously, I spotted an ad at the bottom of this link who is a “Minister of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, and author of many books”. Guess who…
http://babylonbee.com/news/woman-wielding-tolerance-chainsaw-accidentally-cuts-self/
Daisy wrote:
Because it’s BIBLICAL™!!
The pastor’s heroes recommend it!
Lydia wrote:
Very disappointed with my local SWBTS on this. Perhaps, however, I would have no problem with “Biblical” counseling if I were the one who got to decide what is “Biblical”.
Biblical counseling is cold, its,unethical, it’s made up by man and disquised as Christ centered, and I would say it’s down,right demonic! Repeating the words of my Savior ” Get thee behind me Satan”!!!!! I hope I quoted correctly. This is a tool of Satan and I would dare say he is,sitting in the church at LBC wreaking havic in the lives of those being counseled by his trash phony “biblical counseling ” remember satan knows God’s word and has had thousands of years to practice running God’s children off with it! SORRY KEN RAMEY I WILL NOT STOP billy will not stop speaking TRUTH until you START! Stop sending church members to counsel, correct, confront , and attack me! Thanks to you my working relationship with another member has been harmed and I don’t know how I move forward in the business relationship I have with her!!!! Thank you again for having her confront me with Galatians 6:1 and doing it AGAIN to me while I was in the middle of cleaning!!!! Your showing what a wonderful pastor you are upsetting and ruining work for a single parent trying to put food on the table for her already injured son!!! Its easy for you when you have a SIX FIGURE INCOME and your not scrubbing toilets or slogging in the mud to feed horses just to put food on the table for your children! No! Your kids go on comfy vacations to Colorado, Singapore, Russia, and get amber combination and Fitch clothes while attending the best private schools!!!! All this while you have a church worth millions you live in an upper class area and you choose to slander , put down , and take work away from a single mother who still is picking up the pieces of her child’s rape and the carnage it left behind. Good job you accomplished your goal in taking work away but you know what GOD IS STILL GOOD AND HID HAND IS STILL ON OUR LIVES ME AND BILLY! @ Beth D:
FW Rez wrote:
@ Velour:
Why would we think she is state certified? If she is through the church that makes her counseling protected. (Not reporting). This is all tricky stuff.
My last post I want to remind everyone that there is no shame in the work I do or the amount of money I earn. I am exactly where God wants me right now. My work is what it is and I’m so grateful to have it. Ken on the other hand has no clue what work is or what it means to tell your kid, sorry son it’s rice and beans but it will taste great! My kid attends public school and praise God he is getting cared for in the public school these are wonderful people. My concern are monthly immediate needs anything beyond that is truly another blessing. I don’t care how much anyone earns but don’t claim Jesus(pastors ) and take work away from those who are not as fortunate to not worry about food and rent and have more than enough. I ken ramey
@ Bill M:
I have had a lot of fun with that site in the past. The possibilities with the ‘tip of the iceberg’ pic are endless.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Counselor was trained in party method, too.
It takes a seared conscious to tell the mom of a young rape victim she is sinning by being angry and will be reported to the elders or great leader. Orwellian. In the Name of Jesus, no less;
This is not a thinking woman. This is a an indoctrinated woman. She needs something like Wellspring to debrief from the cult herself.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
We are learning that masses of people for the victim need to show up for sentencing.
@ siteseer:
She also did not give a da#n for future victims.
Lydia wrote:
There’s a reason I can’t hear the phrase “Praise the Loord!” without hearing it at “LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!”
marquis wrote:
I’ve discovered home-brew succotash makes a quickie veggie meal. Can of corn (drain most of the liquid), can of beans (pinto or white, drain most of the liquid), seasonings (I use chopped dried parsley & Montreal steak seasoning), then into the microwave for 2-4 minutes or simmer stove-top for a few. Makes a change from rice & beans when you’re really on a budget. (If there’s a Smart & Final in your area, they’re a good source for cheap canned goods or staples in bulk.)
@ FW Rez:
Exactly, Jael was biblical. :o)
Students at seminaries for counseling are not thinking this through.
A few years ago, I was helping a woman find a specific type of therapist who billed insurance. We went through hundreds looking at training, education and specialty. I saw a pattern with SBTS grads on the list. They were all in their 50’s plus, in private practice with CBT as their method and state certified.
You won’t see that today.The SBTS Carver school was abandoned by Mohler. I think Campbellsville college took it over.
siteseer wrote:
At TV Tropes, this is called “Crapsaccharin” — a Crapsack dystopia with a bright and cheerful coat of paint.
Lydia wrote:
Jael – now that was a woman you did NOT mess with.
Anyone got a link to the Precious Moments parody version of Jael?
Law Prof wrote:
Pastor(TM) or one of Pastor’s Elders(TM)?
Lydia wrote:
She’s Doing The LOOOOOORD’s Work(TM).
@ marquis:
Based on my experience with the authoritarian guru world of this fake Christianity, you being a vulnerable poor single mom made you both a target from Joe raping Billy to how the leaders responded.
If you had been well heeled and admired in the community for your influence and wealth, they would not have touched you guys. Bullies and sociopaths are not stupid.
Trust me. It works like this in many churches. In a cult church like Ken Ramey, it is worse, of course
The problem I have with all this is sociopathic leaders don’t stop. please watch your back and build a more secular client base.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You know what brings a bit of comic relief is how ridiculous they sound outside their cultic bubble. Of course, they don’t realize this when they venture out to set us all straight.
Ohhh just like I told this woman KEN will NEVER have ACCESS TO BILLY AGAIN!!!!!@ Beth D:
Lydia wrote:
INFURIATED READER is possibly JOES SISTER she is from SANDUSKY OHIO or lives there currently!!!!Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Lydia wrote:
I know from what Shauna has written that Pam is not state certified in therapy/social work. My question had to do with child abuse reporting training/TX laws, etc. Where is their professional training about how to handle these cases?
Other denominations require yearly training of all clergy, church staff, church counselors (even if not licensed by the state) from professionals that train them. This church as grossly remiss to not pay for professional training.
Does Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches in the U.S., insure this church? Insurance companies can really make a church tow the line, or cancel coverage.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Here it is: https://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/biblical-womanhood-is-nothing-and-neither-is-biblical-manhood/
Given Mohler and John MacArthur/The Master’s College is young earth, not surprising that they through out all “secular” psychology/ counseling
Lydia wrote:
That sounds great! The rice and beans was because that was literally all we had left before any money came in. When my budget doesn’t stretch I have to use what o got at the time when we are on the last of the food. The rice and beans were good just a little hard when my son is use to regular meals. This is the result when ken removed work because I wasn’t going with the program @ Beth D:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
In case some of you are asking what YEC has to do with it…. all boils down your view of science “outside” of the Bible, or put another way, is there any divine revelation outside of the Bible…. IMHO, If the university is divinely created, it is it’s own revelation which while related, is not dependent on the Bible. So, if fundamental principles in the created world hold true, independent of the Bible, that is fine with… of course, the conflict is when these “truth”.. from the created world and bible, come into “conflict”
Marquis,
Have you applied for SSI for your son? His different abilities and status as a victim may entitle him to assistance, both victim assistance funds and SSI, which together would not be enough, but could help you both to survive economically.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
I, and other church members, discovered this too late at our ex-John MacArthur-ite church headed by a Master’s Seminary graduate (California). The church, which rents from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA., has many engineers whoo work for Silicon Valley tech companies, doctors, and Stanford University undergraduates and graduate students.
Many ex-members have fled for saner churches that don’t practice the JMac/9Marks drivel.
Bill M wrote:
Yeah, almost as ludicrous as “empowerment” (in zeitgeist-post-modern-speak).
@Lydia,
Insurance companies that insure churches are cancelling coverage for churches that don’t comply with child safety and sex abuse prevention and trainings. Sex abuse of minors is the No. 1 reason that churches are sued.
dee wrote:
Depends on the sophistifacation of the individual involved. It normally is correct, there are exceptions in some IPs that are used for tablets.
Some of us can seem like they are coming from all sorts of places.
J.M.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I can just hear Joe Pesci in a Scorsese mob flick:
…I gotcher’ anointed right heear…
Bear in mind of course, that the entirety of Pesci’s lines would not pass TWW’s censorship policy without expurgation.
Lydia wrote:
You’re only saying that because you probably don’t know the Lord.
You need to get right with the Lord and rapture ready!
(tongue in cheek Lyds, tongue in cheek)
marquis wrote:
If that is so, Infuriated Sister of Joe in Ohio really should be more concerned that Joe never again sexually assaults another person ever again.
Joe has already attacked Billy and at least two other people (young women/ girls).
Unless he is stopped or gets treatment and is monitored, I see him becoming a date rapist on a college campus in the future.
As much as I love my own family, I’ve never been in denial about their failings. I love my sister and dad, but how many times have I admitted on this blog that both can be verbally abusive at times?
I don’t automatically go into “protect my family” or “denial” mode if someone else criticizes them over someone.
If a bunch of people have stepped forward to say your brother is a creepy, sexual abuser, and/or a jerk, you may want to consider they’re telling the truth, though it may be hard to accept.
BTW, I have an older brother. Love the guy, he can be decent at times, but he’s more or less been an arrogant jerk since we were kids. I can admit that.
@ marquis:
Another inexpensive food stuff is Ramen noodles.
But – personally, for me – after having lived on Ramen in my college days (while in my 20s), I am now loathe or reluctant to eat it in my 40s. 🙂
But that may be another alternative for someone on a tight food budget. It comes in different flavors, beef, chicken, etc.
Bill M wrote:
I used to love that site!
I’ve noticed that most companies that hang up honest to goodness “motivational” posters (promoting team work, etc) are usually the least friendly.
It’s as thought H.R., or the managers, at these jobs are trying to hide the fact that the work culture is very toxic by pretending (via hanging up “motivational” posters) that they are super friendly places to work, when in reality, they are no such thing.
The job I had where I was bullied a lot by one boss? Two of the bosses were very enthusiastic about promoting “team work” in every staff meeting.
I had to keep from rolling my eyes so hard every time they did that, because I knew it was all bunk. It was all talk and no action.
Some of these abusive churches are like that: talk about how they are the ‘family of Christ,’ but turn around and treat the members or visitors like trash.
Shauna and Billy,
I just made a donation to help you, and I wish it could have been more. I’m so sorry about what happened to you. Your bravery, strength and truth-telling are going to help many people. How very important it is that you have not taken your abuser’s shame to be your shame. The Lord Jesus is not the twisted image that Ken Ramey has made Him out to be. He is for you, He loves you, and He hates evil.
Ken Ramey, if you’re reading, strongly consider how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, how He cared for the “least of these” and how He expects His followers to do the same. Consider what kind of fruit your theology is producing.
Matthew 7:15-23 (paraphrase mine): “Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their FRUITS….On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, [DID WE NOT GO TO THE MASTERS SEMINARY AND PASTOR A CHURCH AND HAVE GOOD THEOLOGY, AND WRITE BOOKS?’ ] And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you…”
Shauna and anyone else in need of food should be able to get assistance through the Second Harvest Food Bank in your area or find a link to a local organization here: http://www.feedingamerica.org/find-your-local-foodbank/
@ Arnold Jerk:
This parody illustrates why the written Word of God is important. It serves as a corrective to what people think God is telling them and shows them what He really is saying. The Holy Spirit and the Word go together and Jesus use of Scripture should also serve as an example. (which also illustrates the fact that Scripture existed before the early church came into being in its NT form and wasn’t put together long after the giving of the Spirit).
@ Muff Potter:
Oh I get it. The bubble is deadly to thinking. But you have to upgrade. The Neo Cals don’t do the rapture. Although, McArthur might. I have not kept up.
Wakingup, thank you soooo much from me and my son. I don’t care if it’s one dollar or a million we appreciate your heart and again I’m beyond humbled by this. I never imagined when dee did this we would be supported so much. We love all of you and my son is seeing the body of Christ stand in the gap and defend him his reputation his name. He gets to see Christ provide for us financially through all of you here when it should have been our church helping. This is letting billy see Christ where he once believed God picked him to expose Joes sin because this was the biblical nouthetic horrible counseling he was given after the rape. Billy gets to see through all of you that this is the lie of Satan. @ Beth D:
@ wakingup:
Daisy wrote:
“The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.”
— TV Tropes, “People’s Republic of Tyranny”
@ An Attorney:
If he has an evaluation (free at most public schools) and an IEP, he is likely eligible.
Lydia wrote:
There’s a reason I’m allergic to Christianese.
No, they don’t see it because outside this cult (LBC) BY THE WAY MARYLIN JUDD I’M CALLING LBC A CULT BECAUSE IT IS!!!! Anyways no the key families and leadership don’t ever see how crazy their nouthetic counseling is to others because they stay in friendships within the cult (oh I mean church, sarcasm) and the ones in the church who see no better! They know not to say a word when things are amiss.
By the way there’s a man who left there who was head of young marrieds ministry back in 2011-2012 time frame. He prayed on the young married women had an affair with a church member for a long period. The leadership protected him. Did I also mention it’s been alleged that he sexually abused (fondling ) women who were sent to him for treatment and he used his position in his field of work to practice medicine? Allegedly he gave breast exams when he wasn’t licensed as a doctor to perform them. He’s not a doctor now oh wait he’s a pastoral doctor (Google it). Ken was told allegedly and discouraged these women from reporting him because he had already been on probation (his license ) for similar issues. If the church conceals this and ken is speaking on behalf of this sexual pervert in court when he’s being sued by another woman allegedly and this happens to billy with ken sweeping it under the rug and accusing billy I say, what is wrong with people who stand by him? Why not lovingly correct him on his sin? Ugh…. Muff Potter wrote:
marquis wrote:
Back when I was living alone I did a lot of “bachelor survival” cooking. Mostly soups and stews and pasta/sauces, the type of thing you can make a big pot of on the weekend and piece off of the rest of the week. Also stuff that freezes well; I usually have a dozen butter tubs full of frozen soup/stew/pasta sauce in my freezer. Or “bachelor survival soups”, i.e. chicken broth with frozen veggies and pasta dumped in to simmer; again, freezes well. (Don’t use salt, as even the “low sodium” varieties have quite a bit of it; a jar of “Mrs Dash” or “Italian Seasoning” goes a long way.)
Muff Potter wrote:
Muff, “empowerment” stuck a nerve, I’ll leave a comment over on the open thread.
marquis wrote:
Yay Billy!
Lydia wrote:
Very good points. There is definitely a lot of financial incentive for ambitious pastors to entice parishioners to use their own “counseling” – whatever form it is in (seminar, book, sessions, etc.).
I suppose what I was trying to say is that:
(a) Jay Adams most likely has issues that led him to focus on a particular kind of “counseling,” that is, issues that I have found to be quite ubiquitous within the Neo-Reformed community: low self-esteem, self-loathing, “worm theology,” etc. Heavy overemphasis on wrath and judgement, to the detriment of love and grace.
(b) People who are drawn to Jay Adams’ approach (nouthetic/”biblical” counseling) probably share some or all of the above issues.
That’s why it is so sad to me to see so many folks suckered into this disgusting movement. The people who are drawn to nouthetics are probably the people MOST in need of love, grace, and unconditional positive regard, and who absolutely do not need any more self-loathing or victim-blaming.
As we all know, there is so much wrong with this whole story that it just boggles the mind. How can these people act like this and then sit in church, pray to God, etc.? Anyway, given the culture of this church, I wonder if Shauna would have been treated like this if she had been a man. Would a man have been told basically to “keep sweet” and obey? Plus, why in the heck does the church think it can butt in? Absolutely appalling!
okrapod wrote:
As someone who has been in therapy, and who has a close family member who is a professional therapist, I completely agree with your thoughts here.
Real, legitimate, effective therapy (as led by an educated, trained, and licensed therapist) can be extremely difficult because, as you point out, the very problems that lead one to therapy are often “hidden” in the sense that the client/patient is often unaware of them or unwilling to confront them.
I briefly studied nouthetics (as an outside observer, not a participant or adherent) during my time in seminary. (Full disclosure: my seminary does not endorse nouthetics and my professor – a licensed professional psychologist with a doctorate from a secular university – was extremely critical of nouthetics). You are right that nouthetics, as traditionally* conceptualized and promulgated by Jay Adams & Co., completely lacks any substantive ability to address a client’s therapeutic needs. It is most certainly a variation of the Pharisees’ question: “Who sinned here?” in the sense that it is built on the faulty premise that all mental health issues can be traced back to some sort of sin, and that the client is usually guilt in some way in said sin.
*I have observed that Nouthetics have been putting a lot of effort into changing the perception of their movement over the last decade or so. They have tried to separate themselves from Jay Adams’ original concepts and have, ironically, begun to draw more on secular psychology. They have also been using the moniker “Biblical Counseling” rather than nouthetic, a practice which I am tempted to describe as deceitful.
marquis wrote:
Shauna, this is just my opinion. I am only a former school teacher with no special training, and I have no personal experience, so just take what I say for whatever it’s worth.
I don’t believe that you and Billy should ever stop speaking the truth, for any reason! If you have the strength to do it, you have the power to continue to expose evil and false teachings, as well the power to support, council, and encourage others who have been abused. You may even have the power to prevent others from being abused. For a person who has been abused, or suffered a great loss, sometimes it is a great comfort just to have a friend around who has walked in those shoes.
Not buttin’ in or trying to tell you what to do ………Just my .02.
I can certainly understand if you wish to return to a private, quiet life for you and Billy. You have to do whatever you feel is best for the two of you — for Billy, especially.
Y – A – Y, Billy!! Double YAY!! Quadruple YAY to infinity!!
Amen >>> Jericho walls’ (in this case, aka “the gates of hell”) crashing down NOW — through the victorious ROAR of God-powered darkness-demolition champions.
Righteous smack-down!! Light and truth vaporize powers, principalities, and wicked giants in high places. Totally!! Billy the WIN-N-N-N-N-ER!! YES!
( Psalm 18:27 – 32
“Yea, by thee I can crush a troop; and by my God I can leap over a wall.”)
“He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength.” Isaiah 40:29
Speaking of cool names:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyCAIA3mIMI
“I will change your name. You shall no longer be called: Wounded, Outcast, Lonely, or Afraid.
Speaking of being afraid . . . When my fear level reaches, oh, about “Paralyzing” on the Fear-Ometer, I pull this song out of my “buckler and shield” pak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_FF7uJpQ9k
“You Are My Hiding Place”
Mr.H wrote:
The other problems that I saw in my ex-John MacArthur-ite church, headed by a Master’s Seminary graduate/pastor, with this brand of counseling were:
*Saying that because people were Christians everything should be fine. Serious marital problems he trivialized and divorces with “husband is a Christian, wife is a Christian and why are they having problems?” (wanting to divorce, etc.).
*This constant emphasis on being God’s “Elect”, chosen by God since the beginning of time, and therefore everything is “ok” and a person doesn’t need to go to professional therapy.
*Senior pastor’s statements from the pulpit that there was “no such thing as emotional abuse”. Curiously, most ex-members (all ages and professions, men and women) accuse him and the other pastors/elders of emotional/spiritual abuse.
*The past is the past. My ex-pastors/elders believed that the things in the past should be left there. There was no understanding for complex trauma symptoms members who had endured sexual abuse exhibited, being raised in an alcoholic home, etc. “Just get over it.”
I saw these very damaged church members constantly damage other people around them (church members, family members, non-believers, colleagues in the work place) because they were unwilling to get professional, outside help to address their problems and they were enabled by the pastors/elders who didn’t believe in outside professional help.
One comment not approve. Naughty Mark tried to come in under a different name.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Amen to good cookin’ HUG. All that stuff you mentioned goes really well with true European style bread. We Americans have only had good bread for the last say 15 years or so. Once you’ve had the good stuff, you don’t wanna’ go back to the crapola foisted on you by the industrial bakers.
Naughty mark??? Is he also infuriated reader? @ Beth D:
dee wrote:
marquis wrote:
About a year or two ago, I heard an offbeat interpretation of Revelation. About how the “sword proceeding from His mouth” is a poetic term for “Words of Truth”. How the Dragon, the Beast, and the False Prophet rampage throughout the world until they encounter this Lamb who speaks the Word of Truth, at which point Dragon, Beast, False Prophet, and all their followers melt away as if they never existed, slain by those Words of Truth.
Mr.H wrote:
So has Dianetics…
Mr.H wrote:
ChEKA changes its name to OGPU which changes its name to NKVD which changes its name to KGB… But whatever the new name, the mass graves in GULAG still keep filling up without interruption.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
But know there will be a day of reckoning for all of them. I suspect on that day, millstones will be in short supply .
J.M.
Hi Nancy, I agree with you 100% and your opinion is important and welcomed thank you for this. I just loaded Dee with court documents and today I will be supplying her with medical bills to post from the night of Billy’s Rape! Billy and I decided we now need to show the documents given the fact that KEN RAMEY just put on a prayer list to the church that this was all made up lies about him and the church are being spread. So when dee gets ready everything will be completely undeniable on their part!We don’t have to show these documents but we are choosing to given that ken is still deceiving and lying to those in our community about my son and me! @ Beth D:
Nancy2 wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“The People’s Democratic Republic of Korea” is not South Korea.
patriciamc wrote:
Possibly because they’re confused about what’s really going on; often, people on the periphery only hear the rumors spread about the church, the slander carefully cultivated by the leaders or their sycophants and enforcers, and the leaders especially often have a nice public face, as many sociopaths do. The pew sitters don’t know what to believe. In the case of those who perpetrate it, it’s quite possibly because they’re evil human beings who hate God and love the church only because it provides them a steady stream of victims who love the Lord, who for them must be as fresh meat to a wolf.
marquis wrote:
Ken Ramey blew it and he’s just digging in deeper.
I find the whole thing alarming. This “Pam” (not her real name but one Dee assigned to her for this story) was assigned to give Shauna counseling from the church, even though she has no licensing or professional training?
Additionally, Pam’s daughter may have been sexually abused at a Texas day care. Pam’s response to that, even though under Texas law any person is a mandated reporter and a failure to report can get a person prosecuted and sentenced to jail time, was to do NOTHING for her child or the safety of other children at the day care? Pam simply moved her child to another day care?
The people at Ken Ramey’s church are NUTS!
What insurance company (Church Mutual or another insurer) insures Ken Ramey’s church? Insurance companies are yanking coverage for churches like this one, with no bona fide child safety plan in place and no professional training for reporting.
Velour, yes!! You may be correct and I feel this to. I’m dying to respond but I will have to wait a bit today to go through comments. I love reading them all of you continue to affirm what me and billy have experienced. You all are amazing. God graced me with a house to clean today and I will go slogging in the mud to feed the horses this,evening (I love it because they have been very therapeutic. I’m so grateful to all of you. Please pray for billy he believes my j I b losses are his,fault because of his,assault and us taking a stand. Dee was so supportive when she heard that and was adamant I tell Billy don’t dare think that. She’s amazing to my sweet boy. @ Beth D:
Velour wrote:
marquis wrote:
I am so glad you had a better day today and the Lord has provided you with some work and some relief.
Not to worry about the issue with “Pam”. I was so alarmed by reading that “Pam” did nothing for her own daughter and to protect other children, from a potential sex abuse problem at a TX day care, that I reported it to TX authorities last night from my state.
Those people at Ken Ramey’s church have ZERO counsel to offer any one and they are a danger to the public, as well as to you and your son! Sorry, sweetie.
marquis wrote:
I am praying for Billy and for you. You folks did the right thing and don’t ever forget it.
(When you’re ready and it wouldn’t be traumatic, watch the Oscar-winning movie “Spotlight” about sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church. Same issue
in other denominations. Same cover ups.)
Jesus said it would be better that a millstone be tied around a person and they be drowned in the deepest of seas than harm a child.
Oh my goodness velour I think I should have clarified. This woman is an older woman her daughter is an adult now. She was sharing her response to suspecting her child was abused I believe to get me to brush off my sons abuse. Instead I lost a lot of respect for her as a mother and was shocked. I don’t hate her this,woman was a sweet friend until she began to counsel me in regards to billy’s rape. This is the twisted counseling that the church uses to train their members who volunteer for it and being that she was so kind before this I had a difficult time losing her friendship as she never called again once I said I didn’t want her counselingme to ken ramey. It’s difficult for me to be truthful in regards to some of these people not because I can’t tell the truth or that I won’t it’s because I was connected to these individuals first as friends and saw a wonderful side to them. I guess that’s why spiritual abuse is hard your connected to your abusers. My goal her isn’t to hurt anyone but unfortunately the truth draws out many things and it is never easy. I hope me this makes sense. I’m not defending what she did just being as transparent as I can be. @ Beth D:
@ Velour:
@marquis,
Thanks for clarifying. Your post makes perfect sense. I know that you don’t want to hurt friends and that you’ve seen wonderful sides to them. And I’ve been in a spiritually abusive church, so I’ve lived it.
And “Pam” gave you horrible advice about your son’s sexual abuse.
I’m just shocked that a TX daycare was operating (are they still in business?) where a parent (“Pam”) did NOTHING to protect all children once she suspected her own daughter had been sexually abused at the daycare. That’s incredibly serious.
Yes,I agree and I’m sure there are many good daycares but unfortunately there are parents who are like her who will ignore abuse. I don’t understand it. Billy and I decided together that we are locking hands holding on tight to each other and we are going to expose Ken Rameys lies and slander by standing on the truth! Dee will as she said be posting soon and it’s going to have A KNOCK OUT PUNCH to the attacks on billy. @ Beth D:
Velour wrote:
Anyone over the age of 16 who abuses anyone under the age of 16 must be punished to the full extent of the law.
This may well be a year of probation,one would like to see more than this but so be it, but the victim must be able to see some justice being done on their behalf.
Of course if the perpetrator is a person of faith one would hope that the: church – mosque – synagogue or temple they attend would be praying them – as for the victim too – however the law of the land must exert the fitting and proper punishment. Hopefully there should be counselling for both the perpetrator and even more so the victim. I understand that those adults who are abusive have often been abused themselves; whilst this is no excuse, and seriously not for we Christians, at least counselling will help the victim heal. And by counselling I do mean proper, professional counselling from a trained person.
marquis wrote:
I just want you to know that you have friends many miles away who are holding hands with you, too. We may not be able to be with you physically, but we are there in spirit.
“Slogging through the mud feeding horses” (not to mention the cold, the heat, ………..). I come from a poor family and I was raised on a farm – horses, mules, chickens, cattle, tobacco crops, corn crops, gardens and canning, fixing the fences and the leaky barn roofs ……. there is grueling physical work every day in all seasons …… Things just have to be done, no way around it!
Boy, do a I ever know where you’re coming from there. I pray that the Lord continues to bless you with the strength and health you need to do what you have to do to continue to support yourself and your son!
clarissa wrote:
You raised some interesting points. I wonder why this young man who raped Billy has not been sent to a special program to treat young sex offenders? That’s where he should be. That’s where his family should have insisted that he be as well as his church’s pastors/elders whom are grossly incompetent to handle a topic of this severity. They’ve just blown it. They are in over their heads.
Dr. Anna Salter, an expert in sexual predators, said in her book Predators, Pedohphiles, Rapists & Other Sex Offenders (Who They Are, How They Operate, And How We Can Protect Ourselves And Our Children) that in research studies that sex offenders who claimed they had been sexually abused as children were told that they would be given a lie detector test. When given a lie detector test, they recanted their stories that they had been sexually abused as children.
Dr. Salter’s point is that sex offenders are a manipulative group and that no they weren’t all sex abused as kids and are acting it out.
Thank you Nancy2 believe it or not I believe God is blessing me through this work. I use to make great money for a single mom. However I put God on the back burner rather than up front and center of my world. I believe He is blessing me through this work and through the people I get to work for. It’s hard and sometimes it would be nice to not have to make it from bill to bill but then again how would I ever see Him provide at the very last minute? That’s the joy I have in knowing He’s got me and billy and that we are never forgotten by Him, it’s so special as are all of you here. Billy’s perpetrator, ken ramey, those who accuse my son of being something he’s never been they are not stealing our joy in the TRUTH! They also will not take away God’s love towards billy as He heals my sons wounds. He was a victim of a horrible crime but he is Victorious through Christ in the midst of his healing.
Remember that Amnon thought he got away with raping TAMAR his sister and because King David let it go never affirming Tamars rape her violation or brought justice she suffered in silence. Amnon was murdered by his brother and that brother(which king David mourned greatly )he then went on to try to kill his own father. We get a glimpse of what happens when things like this are covered up and swept under the rug. Justin and Lindsey Holcombs book brought comfort and light at a very dark time when I was grieving greatly over billy’s rape. I strongly endorse this book to anyone even if you never suffered abuse because it is something everyone can use to help the hurting. This book is a big part of my sons healing and it’s also a book KEN RAMEY could have cared less about because he let it collect dust one I asked if he would read it in order to help billy! @ Beth D:
Nancy2 wrote:
marquis wrote:
The only “counsel” that “Pam” from your ex-church should have given you was to tell you that she violated Texas law by NOT reporting that her daughter had most likely sex abused at the TX daycare and that other children were also at risk. Under TX law, Pam can be in jail for that (for not reporting)! Somebody without a lick of good sense, and putting little children in danger, is supposed to “counsel” you (Shauna)? Seriously? Wow. Just wow. Just arrogant. To blithely put kids in danger? That’s just evil. She was an ADULT, she KNEW, and she did NOTHING! Just despicable.
Joe went into a Juvenile Sex offender program through the city of conroe 1 year probation. Counseling and the sex offender program does no good when your told by mommy daddy, the pastor, elders that you did nothing wrong and let him continue to blame billy while they all blame billy to! @ Beth D:
Velour wrote:
Joe plead guilty he was arrested and charged with aggravated sexual assault the night of Billy’s rape. He took a plea deal. It consisted of 1 year probation, the juvenile sex offender program, counseling for 1 year, he got to walk free. No jail or juvenile facility. He doesn’t have to register as a sex offender. Even if we went to trial it would have ended with the same results. The only way to change that in the future is getting tougher laws passed.
marquis wrote:
They are all enablers to the sex offender. The parents and family need professional therapy, and not from a church. They need rock solid, outside professional help. They have a kid who is beyond off track. He is a criminal and violent and dangerous.
The pastors/elders and others at that church also need professional guidance (outside professionals and not church ones) and should STOP enabling this juvenile offender.
marquis wrote:
That is absurd! You’re right, tougher laws are needed. A lot more mandatory counseling is needed not only to keep him from offending again but also because Joe got to this position somehow.
@ marquis:
Now since Joe is a minor and it wasn’t a jury case, isn’t the sentence dependent on leniency of the judge? I have a friend whose daughter was killed by a drunk driver in Texas. I was worried it would turn into another “affluenza” case and a lawyer said that this wouldn’t happen because my friends daughters killer would have a jury trial and a jury is less likely to show a grownup mercy than a juvenile. Juvenile court judges try to give youth second chances. Sex offenders rarely change, and unfortunately his church isn’t helping Joe by enabling him and by placing Joe in an un supervised situation where he could act again. Poor everyone — children and adults — who will be his next victim.
I am very unimpressed with the John MacArthur network of churches and churches his minions have taken over. Years ago I almost joined one of these churches. They aren’t bearing good fruit.
Velour wrote:
Now that’s interesting. I had not heard that before.
Patriciamc wrote:
Here is a 5-part interview with Dr. Anna Salter on Tier Talk, a professional organization for the corrections industry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRtccELtlJw
I will be,getting her book. Thanks,so much for this link@ Beth D:
Velour wrote:
Velour wrote:
I’ll listen to this. Thanks!
Mark wrote:
The neocal church I’ve oft discussed here, that finally imploded under the weight of its own abusiveness, was led by a TMS MDiv grad.
Velour wrote:
I had no idea. That is just sad.
And yes, by counselling should have been rigorous, difficult ; and should have included Joe’s whole family.
And juvenile or not his name should be on a sex offenders list.
Billy, I know you and you mum are going to get through this; you are going to be well and strong and loved. I was a single mum of two boys,now fine men with their own families, and it wasn’t always easy, we lived on a lot of rice, tomatos, noodles and cabbage, but the LORD looked after us every step if the way.
The both of you may never know why this terrible thing happened, but I pray that as you heal you will be able to lay this time out, as a gift, at the Father’s throne room.
Bless you both.
Thank you velour. Your right we are getting through it and billy is doing great!!! He is opening up we are talking about it a lot with ease. He is learning that the shame and guilt should be placed on his perpetrator and not on him. Billy is finding strength and peace in the Truth he is learning to speak out against unjust accusations and stand his,ground. He has a mama that is fighting for him like no other. Billy is seeing the Church (TWW) body of Christ defend him. I love all those here who ate loving my son. You are an amazing group and I can’t stop gushing over you. I hope one day you all will see what this,support is doing for Billy. @ Beth D:
clarissa wrote:
@ marquis:
Oh good, Marquis. You and Billy just remember, you folks will have good days and bad days. That’s the journey of healing after (multiple) traumas in your case.
We love you folks and we’re here for you.
Remember: 1 out 6 boys will be sexually abused by age 17; 1 out of 3 girls by age 17. There is an epidemic of sexual abuse.
Here is the real Phil Saviano, who was played in the movie “Spotlight” (Oscar-movie of the year about sexual abuse of kids in the Roman Catholic Church), speaking at SNAP (sex abuse group of priests/clergy survivors group). I found Phil’s speech so inspirational! (About 7 1/2 minutes long.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQuE2HjHJlk
Muff Potter wrote:
Yeah. I’ve got a thing for what I call “ethnic breads” — pita, hard-crust Italian or French, dark rye, dill rye, sweet Hawaiian, teleras, bolillos… and I’ve always preferred rolls to sliced bread for sandwiches.
gosh I wish there was a like button – like on facebook; just a hug button would be great. anyway hugs to Billy and you too Marquis – all the way from Hong Kong.
A big hug from Texas to Clarita .@ Beth D:
clarissa wrote:
Oops Clarissa big hugs to you.marquis wrote:
Marquis refers to some documents that she wants posted. Have they been posted?
Hi Jon no they have not yet been posted. Dee is doing something with this so hold tight! @ Beth D:
@ Jon:
Jon wrote:
@ marquis: Thank you
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Indeed.
Your welcome Jon billy is brave@ Beth D:
Jon wrote:
This story saddens me, and the whole “Biblical Counseling (Nouthetic)” angle enfuriates me. My story was published here back in 2011
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/22/no-professional-counseling-advised-one-womans-sad-story/
Sadly, my husband has chosen to leave me when given a choice to get his own therapy or leave. He was fine with me getting the therapy I needed to heal until I started getting healthy and asked him to join me on the healing journey because I can’t fix “us” by myself. He has been talking with my oldest sister, who is a Christian, and she has convinced him that I am sinning by taking medications and in a secular specialized therapy – dialectical behavior therapy — that was developed specifically for my diagnosis.
I got this very hurtful email from this sister last night:
Dear Faith,
You have really gotten my gander up. I am mentally ill. I have Schizo affective disorder and major depression. I refuse to be a victim and to blame my mental illness as an excuse for sinful behavior. You have wreaked havoc in your immediate family and blamed Mr. Stretch for it. You better think twice about what you have done. As far as I am concerned you are a manipulator out to get what you want on your terms without regard for your husband. I know Mr. Stretch has his faults but what about yours? Do you have any? You’re smart-much too smart for your own good. Why do you insist on slapping him with a pfa order when all he wants to do is come home and live out his God given responsibilities to the best of his abilities with shortcomings and all. To insist that he get secular counseling as a condition to come home is utterly ridiculous yet alone childish. Secular counseling is self centered. A lot of “Christian” counseling is glorified secular counseling. Good Christian counseling makes you responsible for your behavior not your mental illness.
Sister’s Name
Thank you velour, we are so glad to know all of you here. Billy is getting stronger and more vocal on the other threads as you cam see. I am so proud of him. @ Beth D:
Velour wrote: