Calvary Temple Update: Should a Church Member, Who Is a Law Officer, Use His Badge to Intimidate Lawful Church Protesters?

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I have been spending the weekend visiting my son in college in Birmingham. I had the most wonderful opportunity to eat lunch with Matt Redmond and his wife. Both of them are incredible human beings and we had much to share about blogging, family, and theology. Suffice to say that Matt is a great in person as he is on his blog, Echoes and Stars. If you haven't read his book, The God of the Mundane. I highly recommend that you do so.

Meeting face to face with folks that I know through the blog is the most incredible, uplifting, fulfilling experience I can imagine. I can only hope that I will be able to meet with many of you in this lifetime. That means more to me than the stories that I write. However, those stories bring you all to this blog and that is wonderful.

I have also had the opportunity of meeting a few folks involved in the Calvary Temple situation. Back in April, we wrote a series of posts on the horrendous situation at this church. If you start with this post and continue sequentially, it will catch you up with the story. Protests continue each week outside the church. TWW celebrates the courage and commitment this group of people have for bringing forth the truth. The following was written by a former member of Calvary Temple and will get you up to date with the current situation. This story is told in their own words with some formatting by me.


Recent events concerning Calvary Temple, in Sterling Virginia, have generated two additional articles in the Loudoun Times Mirror along with an editorial by the editors of the newspaper. 

The fast food restaurant exchange

(FYI-Calvary Temple has an annual car show to attract people to the church.)

In preparation for the end of the summer car show put on by Calvary Temple, a number of protestors went to a local fast food restaurant the night before to pass out flyers to the community. Our purpose was to warn of the child sexual abuse allegations against the church. Greer Scott, wife of Calvary Temple pastor Star R Scott, along with 5 or 6 young men from the church, were at the same location passing out their own flyers advertising the show. 

At one point during the evening, Greer Scott was inviting a couple to the car show when Gary Foster (a former member of Calvary) approached and asked if they knew of the active investigation for sexual child abuse.

  • Greer Scott said "No there is not".
  • Gary said, "Excuse me, there is an active investigation"
  • To which she somewhat laughingly replied "No, no, no". 
  • Gary then looked at the couple and said "Well, if you decide to go and you have children, please don't take them. I have a daughter and three grandchildren who I never been able to meet who attend there."
  • Greer said, "He's never been there."
  • Gary replied, "Wow, I cannot believe you would just lie like that."  (Gary attended Calvary Temple for 40 years from age 14-54 – a fact Greer knew perfectly well.)

We observed Greer entering the restaurant and shortly after, two managers approached us. They ordered us to stop handing out our flyers on the restaurant property. We pointed out that Calvary Temple was handing out flyers and questioned why they could proceed but we were not permitted to. They responded that a customer had complained and were offended at our flyers. After further discussion, the head manager admitted it was Greer Scott that had complained. They went inside to contact the franchise owner and were told to order CT to cease handing out their flyers. We had already complied but Greer and the young men circumvented the order by spreading their flyers on the windshield of one of their vehicles for those passing by to see.

A detective confirms that the investigation is ongoing

The following day Gary Foster contacted one of the detectives involved in the investigation to confirm if it was still active. After receiving the expected affirmation, we had evidence that the pastor's wife had blatantly lied. Incidents such as this are commonplace when dealing with Calvary Temple leadership and its members. They frequently feel justified in lying and covering up the truth in order to protect themselves and their "reputation". They are willing to circumvent rules and regulations that others must adhere to, seeming to feel they are "above the law". They seem to believe the end justifies the means.  

Legal protest at the car show

The event that primarily precipitated the most recent articles in the Loudoun Times Mirror occurred the following day at the car show. A group of us took up our places across the street from Calvary Temple to protest during the car show. On the front of CT property a table was set up with Calvary Temple members wearing "staff" shirts. 

Sergeant Kevin Robinette, member of the church, allegedly enters the fray.

At 11:30 AM, one of the "staff" members walked across the street to talk with Gary Foster. It was Sergeant Kevin Robinette of the Loudoun County Sheriff's Office, a long time member of Calvary Temple. He advised us that one of our protestors had been observed removing a poster CT had placed at a nearby intersection (advertising their car show). He advised Gary that if it was not returned within ten minutes, he would report it as a theft of CT property and have the person arrested. Though he was not in uniform, he made sure Gary understood that he is an officer of the law "24/7" and must report any and all violations of the law, whether it be one of us (the protesters) or a member of CT. He repeated "ten minutes" and left.  

Gary Foster called the Sheriff's office, explained the situation, and asked if it was illegal for someone to remove a poster from a public street sign. The dispatcher advised she would have an officer in the area call him back which happened within approximately three minutes. Gary relayed the incident to the officer who advised it would only be illegal to remove a poster if it was placed on private property and the owner wanted it to remain. The LCSO officer further stated that if the sign was attached to a public sign on a public thoroughfare, it would not be illegal to remove it.

Gary relayed the information to Sgt Robinette who informed us that neither the dispatcher nor the other officer knew the law. He stated that he had been on the force for 31 years, knew the law, and expected us to return the sign to its place in ten minutes. He again threatened to have our protestor arrested.In the interest of keeping the peace, Gary advised the protestor to return the sign.  

The following day we learned that in fact the Calvary Temple signs were illegally placed according to Loudoun County laws as well as Virginia State laws. In addition, the signs in many cases obstructed the view of drivers and created safety concerns. Though Sergeant Robinette was very concerned with the single removal of a CT sign, he was not at all concerned with the actions of Calvary Temple members illegally posting numerous signs. 

The ongoing concern has been that given Sergeant Robinette's ties to Calvary Temple, his statements to a community member that the investigation was "smoke and mirrors", his threat of arrest to a protestor, his revealing private and pertinent information concerning the investigation, (of which we were told by the LCSO that Sergeant Robinette had no knowledge) and his apparent role of Calvary Temple resident police officer, there is an obvious conflict of interest. The LCSO has finally requested that the Virginia State police step in and assist in the investigation of child abuse allegations. We are hopeful that progress will be made in bringing charges against any member or leader that has been involved in criminal activity within Calvary Temple of Sterling, Virginia.

Ex-Calvary Temple member
Sterling, VA


It may be of interest to remind our readers of Blogger Tom Rich's lawsuit against FBC Jacksonville. In that situation, a sheriff attended FBC Jax and was involved in helping Pastor Mac Brunson to out the identity of Tom Rich who had been blogging anonymously.  Tom won the lawsuit. We must question the ethics of any officer of the law involving themselves, as representatives of the law, in such disputes between church members.

It is the opinion of TWW that Sergeant Robinette should recuse himself from any dispute between the legal protestors and the church. We ask that the Sheriff's office speak with Sergeant Robinette for allegedly using his badge to intimidate law abiding citizens. I plan to call the Sheriff's office upon my return to Raleigh and I will update this post with any response.

Comments

Calvary Temple Update: Should a Church Member, Who Is a Law Officer, Use His Badge to Intimidate Lawful Church Protesters? — 101 Comments

  1. Law Prof wrote:

    I teach the law at a U.SD. university Sergeant Robinette is an ignoramus.

    Corrected: I teach the law at a U.S. university. Sergeant Robinette is an ignoramus.

  2. @ Law Prof:
    I was going to ask you if you now live in South Dakota! Do you know if there are written ethical obligations that law enforcement follows?

  3. Law Prof wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    I teach the law at a U.SD. university Sergeant Robinette is an ignoramus.

    Corrected: I teach the law at a U.S. university. Sergeant Robinette is an ignoramus.

    As well as a bully.

  4. Sergeant Kevin Robinette, member of the church, allegedly enters the fray.

    Great when Pastor can use cops as his Enforcers.
    Code of Blue — Cop will always back up Cop.
    And Pastor makes sure he and his church are on the Cop side of the line.
    Just like Bob Griener and ToJo.

  5. dee wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    I was going to ask you if you now live in South Dakota! Do you know if there are written ethical obligations that law enforcement follows?

    You know I love SD, especially out in the western part of the state. If Black Hills State were interested, I’d head to the airport so fast to fly out for an interview you’d only see my skid marks.

    As for ethics, it’d depend on the law enforcement department and the state. Certainly, were I as an attorney to threaten some form of criminal action against someone to gain advantage in a civil matter (the closest parallel to my field I can see in this), it’d be a major violation of the ethical standards of my state and I’d quite possibly be censured, possibly disbarred were I a repeat offender. In my stupid youthful, fresh-out-of-law-school, stupid and impassioned days I nearly did this early in my career, writing a nastygram to an opposing party hinting at pursing criminal actions if they didn’t come to the table to settle a civil matter I was pursuing on behalf of a client. When an older, wiser Christian attorney took a look at my draft, he gave me a hard look and said “You know, M, that’s a major breach of ethics what you’re doing here.”

    Just goes to show how dumb and dangerous young men can be. But this outfit? Middle aged fellow bullying peaceful protesters around? He ought to be thoroughly reprimanded by his lieutenant.

  6. (FYI-Calvary Temple has an annual car show to attract people to the church.)

    Is this the same Pastor Dear Leader who has a BIG collection of expensive cars he uses to reel in teenage car buffs for Re-Education?

  7. Calvary Temple Update: Should a Church Member, Who Is a Law Officer, Use His Badge to Intimidate Lawful Church Protestors?

    “Church Member” or “Pastor’s Armorbearer/Enforcer”?
    Again, remember Bob Griener and ToJo.

  8. My husband is a LEO. All departments are different but when off duty, no one from his department would be allowed to behave as this officer did. Yes, an off duty officer will step into a dangerous and violent situation if necessary but this man clearly used his office in an unethical, inappropriate and dishonest way. Though it probably woudnt result in any seriouse discipline, a letter of reprimand would at least be put in his file which would start the process of possibly showing a pattern of unethical behaviour. An official complaint needs to be filed with the Sheriffs department against this officer.

  9. I think you touched on a huge issue in one sentence, Dee.

    Pastors/Leaders/Public Servants in churches tend to have little or no regard for conflict of interest.

    Attorneys in membership covenants representing the leadership, members, or the church itself, like the Kirk attorney representing the pedo Steven S (did I read that right?)

    Police officers, like this article shines a light on.

    Local politicians attending the local mega-churches, like FBC Jax, perhaps.

    Any other examples we can think of?

    I’m not sure what the solution is, but there does seem to be a lack of caution and concern for the potential of unethical behavior and favoritism.

  10. Wow! What a mess. I agree with Law Prof about the ethical issues. It certainly seems the sheriff officer church member is abusing his authority, or at least coming close. I would urge protestors who witness such abuse to keep filing citizen complaints with the sheriff’s office.

    Also, no disrespect to the local paper that’s done some good investigative reporting, but maybe try to get a Washington Post reporter to look into this? Might get some increased political attention that way.

  11. GovPappy wrote:

    @ GovPappy:
    Of course there’s always the churches, colleges, and denominations that conduct their own internal investigations into abuses. And the world laughs.

    Some Christians think that because they’re on a “sacred mission” that they are in substance superior to the people “only in it for the money” and not in need of checks and balances; they think they can see their way round conflicts of interest and still do the right thing.

    This can be particularly acute with the obnoxious and deluded sort of person who thinks they have some special spiritual gift or calling that makes them superior over all others in the congregation, or the almost-as-obnoxious benighted loyal follower of that “enlightened” one. I think they come to believe that since they are God’s special chosen, what they do is made right by dint of them having done it.

    It’s quite the racket: declare yourself specially called because you just feel it deep down, draw people to yourself through twisting of the Bible to serve your own voracious lusts to dominate and abuse, and viciously slander, gossip about and destroy anyone who questions your methods–all while accusing the person who questions your obviously ungodly actions of being the slanderer and gossip–and, get wealthy and have a steady stream of supply of poor souls upon whom you can vent your sadism. Would be a great gig for them if only there wasn’t that niggling little detail about how Jesus will indeed return and call these people to account for themselves.

  12. Aly k wrote:

    An official complaint needs to be filed with the Sheriffs department against this officer.

    Thank you for your comment. I will let the folks know about your thoughts.

  13. XianAtty wrote:

    I would urge protestors who witness such abuse to keep filing citizen complaints with the sheriff’s office.

    Thank you for your comment.

  14. GovPappy wrote:

    @ GovPappy:
    Of course there’s always the churches, colleges, and denominations that conduct their own internal investigations into abuses. And the world laughs.

    I wonder how that promised internal review of the member contract is going at the Village church. :o)

  15. A bully—scariest kind of LEO around…

    I’m sure it’s totally not legal but that kind of officer is often too frightening to confront.

    Kinda like deciding to lie to a madman pointing a gun at you; sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

    At least you’ll live to fight again–

  16. I do not know the rules in the state this happened, but in Texas, LEOs have been asked to resign for abusing their badges….in situations similar to this…

  17. I agree . There should have been some disciplinary actions taken against this officer , who I believe has not been living up to his commitment when he entered the police force. But just like our govt gas so much corruption , it’s obvious there is corruption in the LCPO. Very sad. Who is going to stand up and say and do what is right?

  18. lydia wrote:

    A lot of mega churches are sources of extra income for police who do weekend traffic and security.

    Did John Piper’s church ever hire police to work weekends, were any women?

    You know Piper has hang ups about ladies working as police or directing men directly.

    I guess if a lady cop worked at Piper’s (or a Piper-esque) church, she could only indirectly communicate with any wayward male drivers by playing a game of charades and pantomiming her intent.

    5 reasons I don’t want John Piper giving my daughter career advice
    http://www.christiantoday.com/article/5.reasons.i.dont.want.john.piper.giving.my.daughter.career.advice/63400.htm

  19. This seems to have become a standard practice in the playbook of the self-anointed ‘Christian ministers’, who are, in reality neither, that set themselves up as petty tyrants to further their own lust for money and power. Suck up to law enforcement, get a few to join your ‘church’ with the promise of easy off duty money in the form of a ‘security’ gig which really means acting as ‘ministers’ own personal Gestapo. Anyone who is a victim of these law enforcement henchmen should sue the agency that employs them- about the only way to get some local governments to pay attention to law enforcement officers who abuse their positions.

  20. Law Prof wrote:

    I teach the law at a U.SD. university Sergeant Robinette is an ignoramus.

    He wouldn’t be the first cop to be uninformed about the First Amendment. I remember an argument I had–and won–with a Salt Lake City cop back around 2000 regarding a protest I was having in front of a chain bookstore sponsoring an L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future promotion. I pointed out I was on the public sidewalk, I was not disturbing the flow of traffic and it was Just Me, not saying a dern thing (I was much into letting my sign do the talking), was he really going to take a 40 YO woman with a sign in … for what? *sigh*

  21. After reading the article about Calvary Temple posted in April, I think leader of the cult I once belonged to must have gotten his playbook from this Star guy. The similarities between the two cults (CT and the one I belonged to) is troubling. I can’t help but wonder how many more of these kinds of *christian* (sic) cults are out there.

  22. JeffT wrote:

    This seems to have become a standard practice in the playbook of the self-anointed ‘Christian ministers’, who are, in reality neither, that set themselves up as petty tyrants to further their own lust for money and power.

    Yep, so much of this stuff is just to keep these guys in power and rich. A lot of their theology helps confirm their position of being beyond being questioned. We have seen their reactions when people do question them.

  23. good grief:
    control over people, ‘contracts’, mandatory tithing or automatic deductions from checking accounts, ‘the place of women’ is actively made subordinate, children are endangered by pedophile-protecting pastors, members who are law-enforcement or lawyers intimidate other members, pressure to vote for one particular Party in national elections . . . .

    at what point do people finally get it that none of this is Christian?

  24. Christiane wrote:

    good grief:
    control over people, ‘contracts’, mandatory tithing or automatic deductions from checking accounts, ‘the place of women’ is actively made subordinate, children are endangered by pedophile-protecting pastors, members who are law-enforcement or lawyers intimidate other members, pressure to vote for one particular Party in national elections . . . .
    at what point do people finally get it that none of this is Christian?

    They get the point that none of it is Christian hopefully when they LEAVE!

  25. Christiane wrote:

    good grief:
    control over people, ‘contracts’, mandatory tithing or automatic deductions from checking accounts, ‘the place of women’ is actively made subordinate, children are endangered by pedophile-protecting pastors, members who are law-enforcement or lawyers intimidate other members, pressure to vote for one particular Party in national elections . . . .

    at what point do people finally get it that none of this is Christian?

    If not before, then certainly when they stand before the judgement seat of Almighty God.

  26. dee wrote:

    Or they start a blog!

    I notice as more and more blogs are started by Christians (or folks who become ex Christians) who are upset with some aspect or another of Christianity or with churches, there grows a larger and larger number of blog pages produced by preachers or Christian organizations who either

    1. bash bloggers and blogging
    or who

    2. issue guilt trips at bloggers or disgruntled former church members, to tell them why they need to keep attending a local church, rather than drop out and blog about their dissatisfaction with churches

  27. I believe there is more to this story than a guy using his position as a local sherriff to intimidate former members of his church. While it is a sad blot on the record of the brave men and women who faithfully execute their jobs to protect us; there is an even more serious one in the light of integrity in the ministry. How about a pastor’s wife who lied about the ongoing investigation of her church for sexual abuse of children? Does a pastor’s wife have a free pass on lying in order to protect her ministry and her husband? Can she say whatever she wants, after all she is only a woman and subordinate to her husband, so who cares if she lies? Did her husband [the Senior Pastor of Calvary Temple] tell her to lie about the ongoing investigation? Is this pastors wife a habitual liar? Is her lack of integrity representative of the pastoral staff of Calvary Temple? Three of the people who were accompanying Greer Scott that day at the local Chik-Fil-A in Sterling, have cut off family ties with their parents for several years, because the pastor of Calvary Temple, Starr Scott, has marked the parents and forbidden relationship. It is also reported that Mrs. Greer Scott has befriended the daughter of the owner of this particular Chik-Fil-A. Rich young people are so impressed with rich ‘apparently godly ministers’ who flash their rich cars and jewels, and talk about Jesus Christ with confidence. It’s all about the package. Notice it was pretty young wife and her bodygaurds who were out passing fliers. It was not the old rich husband/pastor with multiple horror stories of impropriety, cruelty, disregard for the law, that was out in public. Hiding behind the wife and the local sherriff, both with serious credibility issues, thats how brave and strong the man of god is. More false representatives of Christ.

  28. Daisy wrote:

    there grows a larger and larger number of blog pages produced by preachers or Christian organizations who either
    1. bash bloggers and blogging, or
    2. issue guilt trips at bloggers or disgruntled former church members, to tell them why they need to keep attending a local church, rather than drop out and blog about their dissatisfaction with churches

    Or, three, write blogs of their own denouncing any uppity wimmen who dare to criticize the teachings of pastors, instead of letting the pastors (in their infinite wisdom) police their own.

    Tim Bayly, I’m looking at you.

  29. dee wrote:

    You have the reflexes of a wildebeest being chased by a cheetah!

    Nope. Just got lucky.
    I’d rather have the reflexes of a cheetah. It sounds more sleek and classy than the reflexes of a wildebeest.
    But wildebeest is probably more accurate.

  30. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/15/AR2008111502626.html?sid=ST2008111502769
    This article says that Scott has control of all church property, worth $8.5 million in 2008.
    It also says that his child-bride was a student and a high school basketball player at the church high school. I can’t help but wonder, was there something going on between the two before the first wife died? Was the second wife “groomed”?
    What this officer is doing goes beyond intimidating protesters. He is protecting and supporting pedophiles and charlatans.

  31. Kevin Robinette doesn’t know the law, understandable given legalism is predestined to get the law wrong. For background consult Jewish history.

  32. Christiane wrote:

    good grief:
    control over people, ‘contracts’, mandatory tithing or automatic deductions from checking accounts, ‘the place of women’ is actively made subordinate, children are endangered by pedophile-protecting pastors, members who are law-enforcement or lawyers intimidate other members, pressure to vote for one particular Party in national elections . . . .
    at what point do people finally get it that none of this is Christian?

    This is the drum I’ve been beating for years. There are some within the church body who do the following:

    They lust for power and control, in utter disregard for what Jesus said about leadership,

    They are sadistic and take pleasure in disciplining,

    They assume they have some special insight or power or calling that makes them superior to others in the church body (even though Paul veritably screamed the opposite),

    They assume control, they take titles for themselves (even though Jesus specifically said not to do that),

    They seek the choice seats in the conferences, they hob nob with the influential and congratulate one another on their greatness (even though Jesus said those were the hallmarks of pharisees)

    They assume for a tiny group of leaders the exclusive power to discipline when Jesus specifically and irrefutably gave that power to the church body in the whole,

    They slander and scheme in private meetings to consolidate their power (while simultaneously accusing anyone who points out what they are doing of slandering and scheming)

    They lie to protect their interests and institutions,

    They use their ministries to become wealthy and influential,

    To continue a millionaire’s lifestyle in ministry (or in their attempts to achieve that lifestyle), they threaten people struggling to pay the bills with demonic curses if they refuse to tithe,

    I believe that a great number of these people, including some of their loyal followers and sycophants, are not only not Christians but are the very sort of false prophets and end times antichrists that the Lord waned us about, projecting themselves as angels of light. They’re haters of Christians, they’ve infiltrated the church, they take over seminaries and denominations, they have grabbed positions of power or positions of support for that power because they can more efficiently abuse Christians and destroy true fellowship that way.

    They invariably make Him less and less as they make themselves more and more, they take the spotlight that is meant for Jesus alone. They use the word and phrases like “gospel” or “the local church” 10 times for ever once they say “Jesus”. They hate Jesus.

    When are Christians going to stand up and call this stuff out? Why is this work left to a handful of bloggers and a small minority in churches who are quickly marginalized or thrown out? What has happened to Christendom?

  33. Dee, have you thought about contacting Chic Fil A corporate down in Georgia and running this experience at the Chic Fil A in Stirling by them? Maybe that could place more pressure on CT.

  34. I have to tell you guys I love the CT people. I’ve met a number of them, and they are kind, loving individuals who have been deeply hurt. I went and helped protest at the car show. A lot of people turned out to protest.

    I’ve come to know Ellen, and all the Michelle’s and find them amazing. If you live in the DC area from time to time you need to help out an protest. These are loving people who need support and help. It angers me as to what they have endured and the divisions that have taken place.

  35. I have a family member (in-law) who has a relative who goes to Calvary Temple, that family member, who is not a believer, said it’s a cult. They all live near there. That person said they don’t believe in religion, I said you don’t have to, just believe that Jesus saved you.
    My family tried that church decades ago, unfortunately we ended up at GOB. Maybe not quite as bad?

  36. @Law Prof:
    Thankyou. You said it all, well. May I post your comment on my blog? Dear Calvary Temple?

  37. stonemason wrote:

    Three of the people who were accompanying Greer Scott that day at the local Chik-Fil-A in Sterling, have cut off family ties with their parents for several years, because the pastor of Calvary Temple, Starr Scott, has marked the parents and forbidden relationship.

    Disconnect Decree came down from Flag.

    It is also reported that Mrs. Greer Scott has befriended the daughter of the owner of this particular Chik-Fil-A. Rich young people are so impressed with rich ‘apparently godly ministers’ who flash their rich cars and jewels, and talk about Jesus Christ with confidence. It’s all about the package.

    All about the Bling-Bling and the Benjmains, baby.
    Just like Pimps and Dealers in the ‘Hood.

    Notice it was pretty young wife and her bodygaurds who were out passing fliers.

    “Pretty young wife” as in Pastor’s silicone-enhanced Smokin’ HAWT Trophy?

  38. Law Prof wrote:

    I believe that a great number of these people, including some of their loyal followers and sycophants, are not only not Christians but are the very sort of false prophets and end times antichrists that the Lord waned us about, projecting themselves as angels of light. They’re haters of Christians, they’ve infiltrated the church, they take over seminaries and denominations, they have grabbed positions of power or positions of support for that power because they can more efficiently abuse Christians and destroy true fellowship that way.

    I am sure some of the members of these groups are as you say and some are sincere Christians thinking they are doing the right thing and have allowed themselves to be bullied etc.

    Peter did say that many will follow their shameful ways and the way of truth will be brought into disrepute (II Peter 2:2).

  39. Here’s another question I have. There have been a couple of attempts in the past to investigate CT. Have those investigations been derailed, or influenced by Sergeant Kevin Robinette? Has he used his position to interfere, downplay or discourage any investigation?

    That’s a question I think should be answered.

  40. Steve240 wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    I believe that a great number of these people, including some of their loyal followers and sycophants, are not only not Christians but are the very sort of false prophets and end times antichrists that the Lord waned us about, projecting themselves as angels of light. They’re haters of Christians, they’ve infiltrated the church, they take over seminaries and denominations, they have grabbed positions of power or positions of support for that power because they can more efficiently abuse Christians and destroy true fellowship that way.
    I am sure some of the members of these groups are as you say and some are sincere Christians thinking they are doing the right thing and have allowed themselves to be bullied etc.
    Peter did say that many will follow their shameful ways and the way of truth will be brought into disrepute (II Peter 2:2).

    Of course you’re right. I leave open that possibility: “a great number” (doesn’t mean all), “some” (but not all). The larger point, though, is that while none of us has the standing to decide just what someone is, all-in-all, claiming to have God’s insight into the inner workings of another, judging ourselves better, we do have the clear admonition that we will know people by their fruits and that some people, even those calling themselves a fellow believer, should be avoided at virtually all costs and their evil, whether they be a full blown wolf or a rabid sheep, exposed.

  41. Law Prof wrote:

    Molly Fitch wrote:
    @Law Prof:
    Thankyou. You said it all, well. May I post your comment on my blog? Dear Calvary Temple?
    Of course.

    …so long as you fix the numerous typos so I look more literate than I am.

  42. Eagle wrote:

    Here’s another question I have. There have been a couple of attempts in the past to investigate CT. Have those investigations been derailed, or influenced by Sergeant Kevin Robinette? Has he used his position to interfere, downplay or discourage any investigation?

    That’s a question I think should be answered.

    You’re thinking small, Eagle.
    It might not just be one cop (even a sergeant) in Pastor’s pocket. If the cult’s a mega (and Pastor’s stable of expensive race cars would take a LOT of Tithe$ Tithe$ Tithe$), look for Church/Cult Members with a LOT more influence — local politicians, DAs, people with so much money and influence that they can buy anything/anybody, all Jonestown Loyal to Calvary Temple and Pastor.

    Because you don’t get this far unless you have more Friends in High Places than that Bokor in The Princess and the Frog.

  43. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Notice it was pretty young wife and her bodygaurds who were out passing fliers.
    “Pretty young wife” as in Pastor’s silicone-enhanced Smokin’ HAWT Trophy?

    I was more impressed with the fact that she had bodyguards.

  44. Reading about the law enforcement officers that attend CT makes me think of the southwestern corner of Utah, in which many of the police officers and teachers are members of the fundamentalist Mormon sect. It’s impossible to enforce the law in those situations. I know Loudon county is one of the richest counties in the U.S. and has a high rate of development, but I think that good old boy politics might exist there as well.

  45. @ Law Prof:

    So well put. I am not so much interested in sorting out who’s in or out from God’s perspective, but I do think we have to be discerning. Christians and more broadly,Christian movements are known by their fruit. When sizable segments of the visible American church and her leaders (New-Calvinist, charismatics, run-of-the-mill evangelicals) are marked more by abuse, vanity, and worldly renown I think we have to be on the watch for the spirit of antichrist. The devil is always trying to ape God, distort His truth so that the collective temple of the Holy Spirit would be denigrated into a Synagogue of Satan – and much of what is done in Christ’s Name either has nothing to do with Christ or is outright blasphemy.

    Thankfully God is gracious, and is always protecting his church from the constant onslaught of evil. The means by which he does this is often by exposing the evil in her midst. As I try to think on the common threads that bind up the kinds of abuse TWW highlights, it would be spiritual arrogance and willful ignorance. Whenever we as Christians, no matter what our convictions are on particular doctrines, feel so self assured in our doctrinal certainty or that we have arrived at ‘the right way of doing things’ that we are no longer teachable, or able to be corrected we become at minimum a spiritual danger to ourselves and those around us.

  46. Law Prof wrote:

    They invariably make Him less and less as they make themselves more and more, they take the spotlight that is meant for Jesus alone. They use the word and phrases like “gospel” or “the local church” 10 times for ever once they say “Jesus”. They hate Jesus.

    Great point. And great summary of the insanity in the church, both among the pewpeons who are either too intimidated or lazy to do much about it. I really think that self-satisfaction in the pews is a huge problem. If there were not a market for what the hucksters are selling, they wouldn’t stay in business.

  47. Jed Paschall wrote:

    Whenever we as Christians, no matter what our convictions are on particular doctrines, feel so self assured in our doctrinal certainty or that we have arrived at ‘the right way of doing things’ that we are no longer teachable, or able to be corrected we become at minimum a spiritual danger to ourselves and those around us.

    Spiritual danger indeed. How arrogant to think that any of us has it all figured out which would mean that we have both comprehensive revelation about God and the ability to understand that revelation completely. Neither of those is true, and I am certain about that.

  48. Jed Paschall wrote:

    m not so much interested in sorting out who’s in or out from God’s perspective, but I do think we have to be discerning. Christians and more broadly,Christian movements are known by their fruit.

    Lots of redefining what is “good fruit” by these guys. Some things should be obvious but sadly are spun until evil is good a nd good is evil.

  49. Gram3 wrote:

    f there were not a market for what the hucksters are selling, they wouldn’t stay in business

    This is what interests me the most.

  50. GovPappy wrote:

    I think you touched on a huge issue in one sentence, Dee.
    Pastors/Leaders/Public Servants in churches tend to have little or no regard for conflict of interest.

    This bears repeating.

    Despite belief in total depravity, it seems many trust in their own integrity to the extent that they disregard ethics and engage in behavior that secular people would see in an instant was engaging in conflict of interest. It defies common sense if nothing else.

  51. Law Prof wrote:

    They invariably make Him less and less as they make themselves more and more, they take the spotlight that is meant for Jesus alone. They use the word and phrases like “gospel” or “the local church” 10 times for ever once they say “Jesus”. They hate Jesus.

    I would say you have pretty well sumed it up. Love that whole comment.

  52. I agree the officer overstepped his bounds.

    I also think that the one who tore down the sign was out of line.

  53. WOW!!!! I’m learning a lot Dee. This is unbelievable but believable. I had always wondered what may have gone on behind the scenes with two law enforcement officers my pastor and a particular detective (who administered the lie detector tests to my child’s abuser and was party to the offenders treatment in the juvenile sex offenders program) at our former church. The detective seemed to of flipped a switch on my son in how he dealt with us after my sons perpetrator began the program. It was so much of a change in his attitude that I picked up on it immediately and to this day I don’t even want to be in the same building as him. He tried to find out why I wanted to meet with the D.A. one time in which he was pushy, cold, and rude to me when telling me the D.A. wasn’t there. He was also persistent in wanting to know what it was that I wanted to discuss with the D.A. I get the sense he was visited by my pastor and maybe knows the police officers one is retired in that church I’m speculating of course. Anyways I am so sick of the injustice in all of this. Please pray for me. My attorney is about to embark in a major lawsuit in which we may have more people coming forward I spent 3 hours at the law library downtown looking up cases and laws regarding my sons case which may be helpful for our attorney I want to arm her with so much ammunition that it will give her an iron clad position. I’m no law student and there’s so much to research I was soaking in so much of it trying to retain it all. This former church is so connected that once we file I get the sense that this is bigger than what happened to my baby. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Calvary Temple Update: Should a Church Member, Who Is a Law Officer, Use His Badge to Intimidate Lawful Church Protestors?

    “Church Member” or “Pastor’s Armorbearer/Enforcer”?
    Again, remember Bob Griener and ToJo.

  54. Gram3 wrote:

    If there were not a market for what the hucksters are selling, they wouldn’t stay in business.

    I attended church with the family recently for the first time in over two years. Brand new church, product of a local split, youth pastor and senior pastor apparently couldn’t play in same sandbox. Invited by very good friends, people whom I consider the real deal.

    The young 30-something youth pastor, now self-appointed “head pastor”, started off by telling the group of 60 assembled that we were “not a church yet”; he then scanned the room, looking at the assembled, and asked, with a slightly superior, vaguely hostile tone “You have any questions about that? Any questions?” No one said a word. Being a visitor, I didn’t feel it appropriate to say a word (maybe I should’ve). He then launched into a discussion of how we needed “biblically meaningful membership” before we could call ourselves a church, he said “trust me on this”, he assured the flock he was working behind the scenes to make this happen.

    That was the preamble. His first sermon was on…church discipline! Told us that this pronouncement from Jesus about discipline in Matthew 18 is one of only two commands He gave the church (?), told us our culture is too permissive, the church is too permissive, we need to get serious, folks, you need to be held to high standards, you need to properly understand authority, you must never engage in gossip or slander, that’s what destroys a church. This truth about discipline is the true “gospel” (a word he used, along with “biblically meaningful membership” maybe a dozen times each throughout the confusing, repetitive, garbled hour and fifteen minute sermon). He informed us that unless something is specifically in the Bible, it is not biblical. Church discipline being there, why that’s biblical (he said nothing about “biblically meaningful membership”, or how any particular form of membership, aside from knowing Christ and being part of the true church, was a specifically biblical concept, I’m sure he’ll have an answer to anyone who challenges him on that, though, probably a circular argument based on inference upon inference and outright chutzpah cut-and-pasted from the materials of John Piper). Oh and by the way, the whole works was punctuated with a quote from John Piper. What joy!

    Here was this young buck, never having raised a child to adulthood, barely out of seminary, unable to reason coherently, blinded and benighted, possibly not even a believer but a learner of doctrine and a worshipper of Big Important Men, who has probably already been in contact with some vicious cult like SGM or A29, getting ready to roll out his signed membership covenants (surely what he means by “biblically meaningful membership”) that will give him and a hand-picked team of elders the power to make hell the lives of anyone who even hints at being a Berean.

    And all those people, many of them in their 50s and 60s and 70s, the ones who’d been there with the youth pastor kid through the breakup, the ones who’d been part of the former church for decades, just sat there and took it like lambs being led to slaughter. Maybe I should’ve brought the house down and said something, even as a visitor. I don’t know, but we’re meeting with our friends this week and going to tell them to not just run, but run screaming.

  55. Law Prof wrote:

    That was the preamble. His first sermon was on…church discipline! Told us that this pronouncement from Jesus about discipline in Matthew 18 is one of only two commands He gave the church (?), told us our culture is too permissive, the church is too permissive, we need to get serious, folks, you need to be held to high standards, you need to properly understand authority, you must never engage in gossip or slander, that’s what destroys a church.

    Does church discipline apply to this pastor? Who will correct him if he's wrong? What checks and balances are in place? And please don't give me this cr#p (ed.) about the plurality of elders. If the pastor can steer, recommend or influence the process then its undermined. In many of these places the plurality of elders means nothing.

  56. Law Prof wrote:

    Here was this young buck, never having raised a child to adulthood, barely out of seminary, unable to reason coherently, blinded and benighted, possibly not even a believer but a learner of doctrine and a worshipper of Big Important Men, who has probably already been in contact with some vicious cult like SGM or A29, getting ready to roll out his signed membership covenants (surely what he means by “biblically meaningful membership”) that will give him and a hand-picked team of elders the power to make hell the lives of anyone who even hints at being a Berean.

    PIPERJUGEND.

    “EIN VOLK! EIN REICH! EIN FUEHRER!”

  57. Law Prof wrote:

    I attended church with the family recently for the first time in over two years. (…) His first sermon was on…church discipline!

    Most dones I know haven’t totally given up looking but this is what keeps them “done”. I would be curious to know your friend’s thoughts.

  58. Law Prof wrote:

    Maybe I should’ve brought the house down and said something, even as a visitor

    LP, that’s quite a quandary you have described. My first thought is: if they aren’t a true church (“…not a church yet…”) then what authority does he have as a pastor/elder? Who is he a pastor/elder of? He is a shepherd of no flock, a leader of no followers. And that is what those good people need to understand; he has no authority over them or their group than what he usurps/they concede.

    You also make a good point in referencing A29/9M/SGM. Keep an eye on the websites, particularly 9M. I believe the “replant” will show up in short order.

  59. Law Prof wrote:

    Here was this young buck, never having raised a child to adulthood, barely out of seminary, unable to reason coherently, blinded and benighted, possibly not even a believer but a learner of doctrine and a worshipper of Big Important Men, who has probably already been in contact with some vicious cult like SGM or A29, getting ready to roll out his signed membership covenants (surely what he means by “biblically meaningful membership”) that will give him and a hand-picked team of elders the power to make hell the lives of anyone who even hints at being a Berean.

    Welcome to my world for at least the last 8 years. This is pretty much how it is in most evangelical churches here due to SBTS grads. The infiltration is pretty much complete. If they are not the pastor, they are on staff and working with youth. (I use the term “working” loosely because most don’t actually work much at all. They declare using guru language and then demand using shaming, etc)

    And then there are the horror stories of SBTS students volunteering at older est churches in neighborhoods that changed and eventually took them over. I can remember one where some SBTS students were “volunteering” with the youth and kept telling them the pastor did not know the true Gospel. They did not care the pastors own teen children were in the youth group. Even the pastor put up with it for a long while trying to have irenic conversations with them about proper disagreement.

    I do not know why so many of us have put up with it so long as I look back. It looks nothing like Jesus. It actually looks like the Pharisees and we can see how Jesus dealt with that. Delving into why we Christians did not recognize the problems sooner or why we put up with it for 5 min is one of my big interests.

  60. Burwell Stark wrote:

    LP, that’s quite a quandary you have described. My first thought is: if they aren’t a true church (“…not a church yet…”) then what authority does he have as a pastor/elder? Who is he a pastor/elder of? He is a shepherd of no flock, a leader of no followers. And that is what those good people need to understand; he has no authority over them or their group than what he usurps/they concede.

    I think the young pastor would agree with you concerning them not being a real church, yet. In his mind, if he can get that membership covenant he is working on signed, then “he” is a real church. (That is 9 Marx thinking to a T)

  61. Law Prof wrote:

    Here was this young buck, never having raised a child to adulthood, barely out of seminary, unable to reason coherently, blinded and benighted, possibly not even a believer but a learner of doctrine and a worshipper of Big Important Men, who has probably already been in contact with some vicious cult like SGM or A29, getting ready to roll out his signed membership covenants (surely what he means by “biblically meaningful membership”) that will give him and a hand-picked team of elders the power to make hell the lives of anyone who even hints at being a Berean.

    The question is why would educated professional people think he has any credibility in with what you have described he was saying. Obviously his wisdom and experience are seriously lacking. So why would he be an expert on “how to live” as believers? This is where I think we have allowed dualistic thinking (spiritual good/material bad) to become part of our every day life without even realizing it.

  62. Law Prof wrote:

    When are Christians going to stand up and call this stuff out? Why is this work left to a handful of bloggers and a small minority in churches who are quickly marginalized or thrown out? What has happened to Christendom?

    I used to wonder why the churches didn’t step up when Scientology began attacking people who had the temerity to publish its sooper sekrit sakrid skripchers (Xenu loves me this I know / High above the volcano — that’s for HUG). But then I realized the leaders of so many churches were envious of what Scientology was able to get away with, and they wanted those perks too. It’s not every religion that has the Department of State running interference for it with foreign governments.

    It’s amazing how much the leaders of so many churches want to be part of the kingdoms of this world, when Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world. Maybe that’s a way to tell–if they’re into building up this-worldly kingdoms, maybe that’s a sign to stay away. But that’s just me, the person standing outside the household of faith, so take it with a grain of salt.

  63. mirele wrote:

    Maybe that’s a way to tell–if they’re into building up this-worldly kingdoms, maybe that’s a sign to stay away.

    I think you have nailed it. It might look like a reverse success. If it is the real thing, perhaps the people grow/mature past the teacher and the teacher is thrilled because that was the goal all along.

  64. Former CLC’er wrote:

    Reading about the law enforcement officers that attend CT makes me think of the southwestern corner of Utah, in which many of the police officers and teachers are members of the fundamentalist Mormon sect. It’s impossible to enforce the law in those situations.

    About the one good thing otherwise incredibly corrupt former Arizona attorney general did while he was in office was to find money to extend Mohave county policing services to Colorado City. This has helped immensely. And, as much as people dislike having the feds involved, the lawsuits the Departments of Labor and Justice have brought are helping as well. (Labor is going after FLDS employers who used minors and adults for agriculture work and didn’t pay them, while Justice is looking at civil rights violations.) Ironically, the FLDS brought all this attention on themselves when its “God Squad” harassed writer Jon Krakauer as he was passing through the twin towns.

    Showtime is broadcasting “Prophet’s Prey” this month, if you get it. You may find it interesting, but I’ll warn you, it’s not for the faint of heart as it discusses one of the rapes that got Warren Jeffs convicted in Texas.

    Also, you can tell what a messed-up place the twin towns are by this: the birth rate is down because Warren’s dissolved all the marriages and there’s only one way you can legitimately have a child under these circumstances. Just so y’all don’t think I’m totally nuts on this one, I’m going to quote from the Salt Lake Tribune on this one and give you a link (also because this is so repulsive and disgusting I can’t type it out myself):

    Lyle Jeffs legal wife, Charlene Jeffs, filed an affidavit this year saying FLDS leaders chose “seed bearers,” who were the only men allowed to impregnate women. A 2014 paper published by two researchers at the University of Utah, based on interviews they conducted, described how only 15 men in the FLDS were deemed worthy to be seed bearers.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/3038619-155/births-in-polygamous-towns-on-utah-arizona

    So we’re making progress with the FLDS, no thanks to the Arizona state legislature, but we’ve got a ways to go.

  65. Eagle wrote:

    Does church discipline apply to this pastor? Who will correct him if he’s wrong? What checks and balances are in place? And please don’t give me this cr#p (ed.) about the plurality of elders. If the pastor can steer, recommend or influence the process then its undermined. In many of these places the plurality of elders means nothing.

    Good question.

    I remember in the mid 80’s Mahaney handing out an example of another church’s discipline policy and that policy mentioned one of the needs for church discipline was guard against the effect of a LEADER’s sin. Sadly you don’t hear that need mentioned but only the need to discipline members.

    I am appalled at how many times leaders use a broad definition of what is gossip and slander as a means to suppress any questioning of leadership. It sure sounds like this leader was doing that that LawProf wrote about.

  66. mirele wrote:

    But then I realized the leaders of so many churches were envious of what Scientology was able to get away with, and they wanted those perks too. It’s not every religion that has the Department of State running interference for it with foreign governments.

    They wanted to be Elron Hubbard and David Miscavage.

    Tip for Pastors/Apostles: When your antics make people think “Just like Scientology”, that’s NOT a good sign.

  67. mirele wrote:

    Lyle Jeffs legal wife, Charlene Jeffs, filed an affidavit this year saying FLDS leaders chose “seed bearers,” who were the only men allowed to impregnate women. A 2014 paper published by two researchers at the University of Utah, based on interviews they conducted, described how only 15 men in the FLDS were deemed worthy to be seed bearers.

    I’ll hazard a guess that Lyle Jeffs himself is one of the Fifteen. After all…

    “Most cults are started so the cult leader can (1) get rich, (2) get laid, or (3) both.”
    — My old Dungeonmaster after a long-ago D&D session

  68. @ Steve240:

    Yes, Eagle, it is a good question! I think that topic may be worthy of a blog post. I’ll be looking for it. And by the way, my former church is now officially a 9Marks church. Talk about a marriage made in hell.

  69. Bill M wrote:

    Most dones I know haven’t totally given up looking but this is what keeps them “done”

    Yes, that is true in our case. Show us a pastor who looks and acts and talks like Jesus instead of their favorite star in the Gospel Glitterati constellation, and maybe we might think about it. We’ve had our fill of Pulpit Parrots.

  70. Look at this, it’s in the Washington Post. One of the most prestigious astronomers in the US at the University of California of Berkley is in hot water over sexual harassment. He was a contender allegedly for the Nobel Prize. This part of the article stands out for me.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/10/12/superstar-astronomer-sexually-harassed-students-for-years-according-to-investigation/

    ***

    Nothing else is unique: there are other harassers, just as bad; there are other people “everyone knows” are creepy or harassing or dangerous for female students to be around; there are other secret internal investigations by universities after which no meaningful action is taken. There are countless women (and sometimes men) whose careers, safety, and health are undermined by people abusing positions of power. Many of those scientists leave the field because they can’t or won’t put up with it indefinitely, or because their careers have been so compromised by the abuse that they lack support and opportunities. There are countless professors who have enough prestige and security that they can rest assured that any complaints against them will be suppressed by their colleagues and covered up by administration.

    This is how it works. This is the system in which we operate. Victims who come forward are put through a terrible ordeal in addition to the fear, self-doubt, and impossible choices imposed by their abusers. When victims go through the process, it rarely results in anything positive for them or punitive for the perpetrator. As long as universities have incentives to keep harassment quiet and to protect their faculty investments, and as long as the power structure of academia is weighted so incredibly heavily toward established professors, it’s hard to see how anything will change. At the moment, universities have little incentive to protect students in cases where that protection would mean punishing (or losing) one of their Old Boys’ Club stalwarts.

    I hope that Geoff Marcy stops being in a position to harm students and colleagues. I hope that UC Berkeley goes to some kind of effort to make amends for the harm they’ve done by abetting him. But it’s not just Marcy, and it’s not just Berkeley, and it will take more than firing Marcy or sanctioning Berkeley to create an environment that’s safe for us to get on with doing the science we love.

  71. @Mirele – years ago, when my parents and I visited Las Vegas, my Dad and I took a bus trip to Bryce Canyon and passed through that part of the country. Our bus driver told us to count the number of chimneys on the houses and that was how many wives the husband had. I was shocked, especially as we were driving through such a beautiful part of the state. Since that time, my radar has gone up when the FLDS is in the news.

  72. After reading all the background on this group all I can say is Star Scott is brilliant. Evil but brilliant. Talk about hostile takeovers. Drive out the vast majority of the original membership. Those 50 people that were left in the end (the “true believers”) also inherited a building and a bank account that was ceded by the 950 that left. I have to admire those that fight back, like the elderly lady who was booted from her Baptist Church. Considering the abuse heaped on them, they remain as a thorny reminder that the pastors will not get away with what they’ve done. Too many churchgoers have bought into the “divine right to rule” fallacy. It’s unfortunate because the Evangelicals I know (including the woman I married) are the most sincere, honest and giving of people. I understand those who have been abused who must leave those abusive places for their own well being and personal safety but I’m a person who left Christianity because I felt it had lost its touch with the modern world. There was no abuse or anything “bad” but as I read stories like this, I wonder, if all the moderates leave the field the fundamentalists will have a “field day”.

  73. Law Prof wrote:

    Molly Fitch wrote:
    @Law Prof:
    Thankyou. You said it all, well. May I post your comment on my blog? Dear Calvary Temple?
    Of course.

    Thankyou. Apologize for the delay, it will be posted tomorrow. Today I was notified that our 5th grandchild, little Madeline, was born, sometime recently. We were sent three pictures. Anonymously. I wish I could hug my son, her daddy, and cradle his daughter. Pastor Scott has forbidden any contact. At times you’d think pain could be lethal.

  74. Molly Fitch wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Molly Fitch wrote:
    @Law Prof:
    Thankyou. You said it all, well. May I post your comment on my blog? Dear Calvary Temple?
    Of course.
    Thankyou. Apologize for the delay, it will be posted tomorrow. Today I was notified that our 5th grandchild, little Madeline, was born, sometime recently. We were sent three pictures. Anonymously. I wish I could hug my son, her daddy, and cradle his daughter. Pastor Scott has forbidden any contact. At times you’d think pain could be lethal.

    I am so sorry. That must be devastating.

  75. Janet Varin wrote:

    es, Eagle, it is a good question! I think that topic may be worthy of a blog post. I’ll be looking for it. And by the way, my former church is now officially a 9Marks church.

    And “The rule of The Party is Forever”.

  76. @ Jack:

    “I’m a person who left Christianity because I felt it had lost its touch with the modern world.”
    ++++++++++++++

    Hi, Jack.

    Wondering…. you left Christianity. Does that mean the institutional program? Christian culture? Church attendance? The bible? God? Jesus? Holy Spirit? Communicating with God? The fact of knowing God, in any degree?

  77. @ Molly Fitch:

    Molly the situation in your family grieves me. You’re one of the reasons why I go and protest from time to time. I can’t imagine the pain you are going through. But know that you are not alone during this time. There are many people who love and care for you, and will walk with you during this time. This racket needs to end and your children need to come back to you. This is outrageous.

  78. @ Molly Fitch:

    Hi, Molly. I am so sorry for your circumstances. I hope mental/emotional chokehold that has become CT is removed completely very soon.

  79. Back in the 60’s when I was a child, and lived in a different state than I currently live in we attended a church that would become a so-called mega church in the area. We helped build it up from a very small group. This minister, who is now deceased, hurt a lot of people back in the day. A lot of my problems with this particular denomination stem from this time. My whole family was very involved in the church. As the church began to get into what I would call now the “control” business my family left. The church actually split basically in half. After we left, this church started a so-called ministerial training school. That would now be called a “college”. When I read all of this about these churches, it takes me back to that time, and realize it is nothing new. It seems like that what was old is now new again. My heart breaks so much for those going thru this now. As a child I didn’t understand a lot of what was going on, but I thank God that my parents had the wisdom to leave that church for another church in the same denomination. This church met our spiritual needs and thru their ministry we became whole again. We need more churches like this one who will take the wounded and broken in heart and minister to them in a God given way.

  80. mirele wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    I teach the law at a U.SD. university Sergeant Robinette is an ignoramus.
    He wouldn’t be the first cop to be uninformed about the First Amendment. I remember an argument I had–and won–with a Salt Lake City cop back around 2000 regarding a protest I was having in front of a chain bookstore sponsoring an L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future promotion. I pointed out I was on the public sidewalk, I was not disturbing the flow of traffic and it was Just Me, not saying a dern thing (I was much into letting my sign do the talking), was he really going to take a 40 YO woman with a sign in … for what? *sigh*

    A couple years ago my oldest daughter, then 17, had and won a confrontation with an officer about the Fourth Amendment. The officer saw her with a group of friends at a public park, drove up, got out of the squad car, and demanded that they turn over their cell phones so the officer check the texts out. The other kids in the group were just starting to hand theirs over when my daughter said “No, I’m not giving you my phone!” She then started lecturing (and let me tell you, can she lecture, my wife and I feel the brunt of it all the time) the officer on probable cause and after some humphing and posturing, the officer turned round and jumped back into the car and drove off. The other kids were shocked she wasn’t arrested. When she told me that story, I was prouder than if she’d made dean’s list.

  81. __

    “Tip Toe Through Da TULIP (s) ™ ?”

    hmmm…

      Law Prof  said here on Wed Oct 14, 2015 at 10:50 AM said: “Here was this young buck, never having raised a child to adulthood, barely out of seminary, unable to reason coherently, blinded and benighted, possibly not even a believer but a learner of doctrine and a worshipper of Big Important Men, who has probably already been in contact with some vicious cult like SGM or A29, getting ready to roll out his signed membership covenants (surely what he means by “biblically meaningful membership”) that will give him and a hand-picked team of elders the power to make hell the lives of anyone who even hints at being a Berean.”

      Lydia said here on Wed Oct 14, 2015 at 01:20 PM said: “Welcome to my world for at least the last 8 years. This is pretty much how it is in most evangelical churches here due to SBTS grads. The infiltration is pretty much complete. If they are not the pastor, they are on staff and working with youth. (I use the term “working” loosely because most don’t actually work much at all. They declare using guru language and then demand using shaming, etc)
    And then there are the horror stories of SBTS students volunteering at older est churches in neighborhoods that changed and eventually took them over. I can remember one where some SBTS students were “volunteering” with the youth and kept telling them the pastor did not know the true Gospel. They did not care the pastors own teen children were in the youth group. Even the pastor put up with it for a long while trying to have irenic conversations with them about proper disagreement.
    I do not know why so many of us have put up with it so long as I look back. It looks nothing like Jesus. It actually looks like the Pharisees and we can see how Jesus dealt with that. Delving into why we Christians did not recognize the problems sooner or why we put up with it for 5 min is one of my big interests.”

    ***

       The common denominator to SBTS, SBC infiltration, Nine Marks, Acts 29, SGM/SGC, is New Calvinism.  

    huh?

      This questionable religious 501(c)3 TRACK is aparrenly the source of their pressing “Authority”; it is also suspected as the source of the abusive practices such as Sin Sniffing, DEPRAVITY and the pressing of Member Guilt, the need for legally binding membership agreements, the pressing expansion of 501(c)3 church discipline, and the persuit  of members who wish to terminate their relationship with these ‘type’ of churches, without aquiring the ‘proper permissions’ or a ‘certified’ or ‘leadership approved’ destination 501(c)3 church.

      Many of us here a TWW  have been sourcing the ‘abuse’ to ‘various forms’ of the ‘present day’ practice of a religious system called Calvinism, with the core being the abuse of T.U.L.I.P. ™ . When examining T.U.L.I.P. ™  in depth then this compounded religious  501(c)3 nightmare ‘becomes’ strikingly evident and unmistakeable. 

    What?

      The Lord I so imperfectly serve has left many great and precious promises in both the old and new testament of the bible, to aid greatly those THAT lõõk to the Lord Jesus for their : HOPE, SALVATION, AND THE ETERNAL DESTINATION OF THEIR PRCIOUS SOUL(S).

    Yep.

       The Lord Jesus intends to win, regardless of the present day deception and false flag operations  used by questionable religious groups (such as those listed here) to ‘swell’ their ranks.

    Don’t Loose Heart!

      My kindly ‘advice’ to everyone,  is to take God and and His Son , at ‘their’ word; reminded that those great and precious promises were give for you and your children, –all those who Call upon the precious name of Jesus, don’t get no bedder…

    ATB

    Thank-You! 

    P.S. —> I have no intention of missing da Lord’s party, I hope you will be there Too! [1]

    “Remember, The Lord Jesus, is not coming ‘alone’…”

    hahahahahahahaha

    Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!

    Sopy
    __
    [1] Inspirational relief: 
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjcewqh2Yu8

    🙂

  82. Law Prof wrote:

    Maybe I should’ve brought the house down and said something, even as a visitor. I don’t know, but we’re meeting with our friends this week and going to tell them to not just run, but run screaming.

    Sound advice, my friend. Very sound advice.

  83. ++++++++++++++
    Hi, Jack.
    Wondering…. you left Christianity. Does that mean the institutional program? Christian culture? Church attendance? The bible? God? Jesus? Holy Spirit? Communicating with God? The fact of knowing God, in any degree?

    I’ve had an on-again off-again relationship with Christianity. At times in my life, I attended church, left and attended. I’ve been on a decade long hiatus this time. I’ve prayed and sometimes still do. Not sure if there’s anyone on the line or not. I’ve never felt a “presence”. I have big issues with biblical inerrancy and am definitely egalitarian. Not sure what Christian culture is – I was raised Anglican, I’ve attended Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Assemblies of God – each one has their own culture – and the RC and AoG churches certainly wouldn’t consider me “Christian” by their standard. Maybe I should classify myself as an “Eggo” because I certainly do waffle – but I can’t say I’m a Christian right now. If there is a God then at least I won’t go to heck as a dishonest person.

  84. @ Jack:

    “Christian” is like a political party affiliation. It’s meaning has to do with Christ in name only.

    I am certain God is not the narrow-minded control-freak legislator like many of his thought-stopped self-appointed spokespeople & followers are.

    I am sure God understands the uncertainty, bewilderment, or whatever-is-the-right-word that you, I, and so many others experience. I think he appreciates the honesty, instead of being Christian out of habit.

    Kindness, honesty, being a decent human being counts (as opposed to going through any religious motions).

  85. Pingback: An Open Letter to Molly Fitch (Formerly of Calvary Temple in Sterling, Virginia) | Wondering Eagle UNITED STATES