Recently, I read anarticle at TGC called Who Is the Most Dangerous Guy at Your Church? by Erik Raymond. Now, in Raymond's world, the most dangerous guy at his church is the guy who *apparently* knows a lot about the Bible and can effectively argue his position. He is very involved in the church and appears to have it all together. However, he is *unteachable.*
As an aside, why did the writer use the male gender for his example? Why didn't he use the gender neutral "most dangerous person* in the church? Do women not have much to say in his church?
Also, he did not seem to address the possibility that the guy who is annoying him might actually be correct in his critique. For example, if a certain pastor that I know had actually listened to some folks, his church would not have lost so many members. Thankfully Raymond got some pushback from people who questioned if it was actually the pastor who might be threatened by an intelligent person.
However, in spite of all of that, I think that the "most dangerous" part of his post was the following comment.
So I ask you, “Who is the most dangerous guy at your church?”
Here I am not so much aiming at an individual as I am looking at a type of person.
Sure, we all can spot the unbeliever who doesn’t fluently speak the language of Zion, we can identify the person from doctrinally anemic backgrounds because they keep cutting themselves with the sharp knives in the theology drawer, and of course any Calvinist can sniff out an Arminian within 20 seconds.
This is a great example of a Calvinista. If you do not believe like he does, you are a problem. An Arminian is not the most dangerous person in the church, merely one of the less dangerous people in the church. Could this have been an insult? TWW has been observing a number of pastors and church leaders who believe that they are theologically *correct* and who disrespect those who do not agree with their certified gospel™ interpretations.
As such put downs continue to increase, it was merely a matter of time before the gospel™ dudebros found the need to bless the art of insulting.
Gospel insults: The latest in Holy Spirit guided conversations.
Last week, TGC posted Surprised By Scripture: Love and Spirit Inspired Insults by Joe Rigney. After listing the fruits of the Spirit, Rigney proclaimed:
Our expectation of the Spirit-filled person is that they would sincerely love people; that they would be manifestly gentle; that they would speak with kindness and patience in all circumstances. And those are good, biblical expectations.
He claims that the Book of Acts turns those expectations on their proverbial heads. In order to put forth his argument that insults are actually quite Spirit filled, he discusses an incident from Acts 13: 6-12. I am going to make sure that you read all of the verses because I believe he is misinterpreting the intent of this passage. I do not think it has anything to do with insults and everything to do with stating a truth with power.
This is from the NIV: Bible Gateway. I have highlighted the actual verses that are quoted by the author.
They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God.
But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.
A Holy Spirit insult or a Holy Spirit statement of fact?
Here is what Rigney had to say about those verses.
In this case, the fruit of the Spirit is name-calling, insults, and harsh words. In this case, Spirit-prompted boldness means not mincing words about the wickedness of this magician.
It seems that Rigney may have overlooked some verses, repeated here.
Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.
Acts is filled with miracles that occurred to give witness to the power of the Lord as well as to establish the validity of the nascent church. Paul claimed that the sorcerer was child of the devil. These were not insults but actual statements of fact. Paul followed up his observations about the sorcerer by performing a miracle. The point of the Holy Spirit's act was to demonstrate to the "child of the devil" and Paulus that Christ had power, both over him and the devil to whom Elymas owed his magic.These words of Paul were not insults, merely statements of fact.
However, the author runs with his conjecture that, due to this example, the "Holy Spirit" wants leader types to develop the fine art of the devastating insult. These next statements are not parody even if it seems they are. I will quote directly from the post itself.
1. Faithfulness to Scripture DEMANDS we include the Spirit filled insult.
This is not a suggestion. It is a command.
Not that the Spirit-filled life doesn’t include sincere love and patience and kindness and gentleness. But apparently the Spirit-filled life is compatible with this kind of direct, pointed speech too. Faithfulness to Scripture demands we have a category for a Spirit-inspired insult.
2. The use of such insults is mainly for pastors and leaders, not the pew sitters.
Apparently, only certain leader types are blessed with the ability to know when and how to use the insult and not come across as a jackass. I guess the author does not know a number of leaders that we have discussed on this blog.
What’s more, for pastors and other Christian leaders, this passage challenges us to discern when this type of speech is appropriate (and even necessary). These words come from an apostle, a leader in the church, and so I don’t think all Christians are necessarily called to speak with such biting words.
3. We non-leaders are obligated to cry out "Amen" when we hear our leaders proclaiming Spirit™ led insults.
I am dead serious.
But this passage doesn’t just challenge pastors and leaders. Even though lay Christians may never be called to speak like Paul does here, they are called to say “Amen” when their leaders do. This means all Christians must learn to recognize worldly apostles and false prophets. And when godly leaders speak the biting truth, we can’t simply cluck our tongues and say, “Easy now. Isn’t the Spirit a spirit of love and kindness? Don’t speak so harshly.”
3. Insults are appropriate when someone is preventing others from hearing the Gospel.
When someone tries to build a wall between people and the gospel, pointed and exposing words are appropriate (and maybe even necessary) to tear it down. If Elymas doesn’t want to hear the gospel, that’s one thing. But when he actively hinders others from hearing and responding, Paul tells the truth.
4. Jesus insulted the Scribes and Pharisees.Therefore, leaders should follow His example.
Rigney compares the Scribes and Pharisees to the sorcerer. Unfortunately, there is a problem here. The Pharisees were recognized leaders of the Jewish faith that went off track. They led people to believe that following the Laws as well as the rules and regulations written by Pharisees would gain them favor with God.
Like Elymas, the Pharisees and scribes are preventing people from entering the kingdom. They keep the hungry from being fed by the Word of God. And so Jesus doesn’t play nice with them. He confronts them head on.
It gets dicey here. At this point, Jesus is going after the religious leaders.
- We know of pastors who have encouraged women to return to their abusive husbands.
- We know of a church which encouraged a woman to stay married to a pedophile.
- We know of a church which disciplined a man who disagreed with their support of CJ Mahaney and left the church without declaring his new church affiliation.
- We know of a particular organization of churches which allowed leaders to post support of CJ Mahaney and to call the victims who didn't obsessed Javerts.
- We know of an organization that supports leaders who call those who are not Calvinists "barely Christians."
- We know of a pastor who called a church member a "narcissistic zero."
My guess is that Rigney would never, ever insult these leaders since they are in his close knit tribe. So, insulting the Pharisee is not a particularly great example to show support for gospel™ insults since Rigney would most likely never insult one of his own.
Final thoughts
- Paul did not insult the sorcerer. It was a statement of fact which was backed up by a miracle which demonstrated the inner blindness of Elymas with an externally imposed, God given blindness. Few Christian leaders could follow up their insults with a miracle. This is not good example for Rigney to prove why leaders should insult others.
- Rigney should not use the sorcerer and Paul as *proof* that Christian leaders should insult others unless he is proposing that these leaders should also perform miracles to back up their contentions.
- There is a certain cadre of important men (and a few women) who insult Christians who disagree with them on a regular basis.
- We live in a pluralistic society with plenty of people insulting those who disagree with them on a regular basis. Real love is expressed by "turning the other cheek." That was something else that Jesus taught and demonstrated by His humble sacrifice. Never forget that the guards were insulting Him as He hung on the Cross dying. He, on the other hand, said "Father forgive them. They know not what they do." I wonder why Rigney didn't point out that example?
- Once again, it is only the leaders/pastors who have the right to insult others.The pastor is now the anointed, official, gospel™ insulter…Wow! Things are getting a bit out of hand.
TWW believes that you, too, can insult others.
For those of you who want to show love by insulting others, we offer these two resources.Train yourself up and maybe, just maybe, the pastor will let you share you favorite insults with him.
1. Ergo Fabulous offers the insults of Martin Luther. Try these out on your officially designated Pastor of Insults. You will garner respect or be put in discipline for thinking you are allowed to insult others since you are not a pastor. Here is one example.
Your words are so foolishly and ignorantly composed that I cannot believe you understand them.
2. If you want a more modern version of insults, who does it any better than Mark Driscoll? You, too, can show love like Mark Driscoll at The Driscollizer. Here is one example.
You are as popular as a fart in an elevator
First?
Second.
Third.
Eating pasta!
Unfortunately I have heard the insult approach recommended by one or two baptist fundamentalists in the past, rather like being obnoxious for Jesus, nasty for the Lord. I gathered back when I heard it that the object was to get the hearer off balance with this ugliness and then sling rapid fire bible verses at him. This was supposed to facilitate the idea that ‘you got to get them lost before you can get them saved.’ Apparently the person assaulted in this way would understand his lostness through this approach. This seems to be a step up from ordinary ‘boldness’ for those who are ready to really get serious about rescuing the perishing.
I have to get that T shirt: I used to be a people person, but people ruined that for me.
I think these “pastors” will grasp at anything to not only excuse their bad behavior, but try to make others think they are spiritual giants because of it. They are really just spiritual bullies.
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you Insult one another.” John 13:35 TGC version
“Ravagers of Christian piety”?
HERE: https://youtu.be/RdxdnVqn08E
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Most Dangerous!
Rigney sounds like he is describing the playbook over at the Bayly Blog. Tim Bayly calls people all kinds of names (in the name of “love”) and his sycophants nod vigorously and agree with him. Ugh.
At one time Christianity more or less held sway in North America simply by sheer numbers. Society is more pluralistic than before and Christians are but one voice among many. With the internet, people are sharing ideas faster than ever before, crossing borders and ideologies. This can be likened to the printing press and the rise Protestantism. Add to this mix the advances in science and human rights and the Neo Calvinists are terrified. The bible is now being challenged by science and interpreted in light of the 21st century. We now look to the Constitution (or Bill of Rights in Canada) for guidance – a document of the Enlightenment. These pastors have a very weak faith that is having a hard time in the post modern world. So they cling to young earth creationism and bronze age patriarchy. They make these outmoded beliefs contingent to faith and define “True Christians” as those who meekly follow, and don’t question. Control by coercion didn’t suppress Protestantism. Are those defying the current “true faith” now “Protesting Protestants”? … and can I (TM) that?
2. The use of such insults is mainly for pastors and leaders, not the pew sitters.
Lovely. Defense of elitest abusiveness.
(Along with the paragraph that follows, that requires the non-elite to smile and applaud the abuse.)
Tenth or so!
Anyone surprised at the progress of Trump bearing in mind the context of this article? I digress. But seriously. It is appalling to me how many professing Christians in America think they have the mind of Christ and thus the right to shout brood of vipers at anyone who criticizes their behavior or attitude in how they treat others in pain or whatever. I’d rather err on the side of Jude (the book not Hey Jude…, Serge, though yes we should make it better…).
Gram3 wrote:
Here, here, Gram3!
And for the record, brood of vipers was also an accurate descriptor, especially seeing Who used it. These days I prefer “blind guides”, but there are contexts when different shoes fit. Abusers & bullies will always hate being called what they are.
Melody wrote:
What in tarnation! Erik sounds so serious and factual – scary stuff, giving affirmation to spiritual abuse, and having the gall to call it good!
“Erik Raymond. Now, in Raymond’s world, the most dangerous guy at his church is the guy who *apparently* knows a lot about the Bible and can effectively argue his position. He is very involved in the church and appears to have it all together. However, he is *unteachable.*” [from article above]
So Erik has a huge problem with Jesus who knew God’s Word and could outsmart the religious ‘big wigs’ who tried to corner him with it.
I remember when I said after seeing Mark Driscoll’s claim to see the sexual fantasies of women he was counseling that such claims were either fraudulent or the product of mental illness- that my insult was not appreciated or well received.
Shakespearean insults aren’t biblical but as a librarian I can’t help but pass them along. http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/
Elitism is a good way to characterize this. The thing is, there isn’t much in the New Testament to hang your insult-as-Godly hat on. Now Old Testament is a different story. Woo-doggies look at what Elijah said to those prophets of Baal!
Anonymous wrote:
According to Marky Mark, God spoke audibly to him and his wife Grace recently.
It would be far too easy to just overload this with snark. I really shouldn’t though.
You already addressed my main beef with these sort of articles and attitudes – Jesus (and in this case, Paul) knew hearts and his “insults” were not just derogatory comments–educated guesses at best–born of anger like they are with us, they were accurate descriptions of character.
Why they want to use the perfect Son of God to justify rude responses is beyond me.
GovPappy wrote:
Oh yes, the elitism. “Not all Christians are called….” You can’t make this stuff up. What a joke.
refugee wrote:
Just like the claque groups of Caesar Nero, Comrade Stalin, and Baba Saddam.
Velour wrote:
Adding an audio track to “I SEE Things”?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And…drug testing?
Firmness and directness are not the same thing as insults. This distinction seems to be collapsed by these folks, too often. And just because you take human free will seriously does not make you a flaming heretic! After all, God takes our choices seriously. How could we be held accountable for our actions if we actually had no choice in the matter (2 Cor 5:10)? It does not have to be a rigid Either/Or (either God is Sovereign or humans have free will…the Bible says it is both).
Back to bluntness. Sometimes the situation calls for firmness and directness–e.g. Jordan is a pedophile, and we will not allow him to have any contact with children in our church, period. Yes, sometimes leaders need to be blunt. And sometimes godly parishioners need to be blunt as well. (I wonder if this author truly believes in the Priesthood of All Believers as these sort of statements about insults suggests otherwise to me.)
Paul wasn’t part of the original 12 yet he called out Peter. Nathan wasn’t the king yet he challenged King David over his sin. Does this individual believe only the “anointed” leaders hear the Holy Spirit? That is dangerous thinking, indeed.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Let me correct it for you:
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you Insult one another, you stupid head. And your mama dresses you funny.”
John 13:35 TGC version
Leila wrote:
Velour wrote:
I sometimes catch Robert Morris on television.
What grabs my attention about Morris is how frequently he claims to hear from God!
Almost every fifth sentence is him saying something like, “God told me…” “I felt God saying to me…”
And God always (supposedly) directs Morris in very detailed or minor ways, like, “drive down to the town’s post office to check on your mail.”
Not saying I deny that God can or does lead Christians by speaking to them and yes, even on minor matters, but with Morris it is an every day thing, it seems.
God speaks more to Morris than he did to Moses, Jesus, or Paul combined.
Not sure why Leila’s quote turned up in my post about Velour’s comments. Hmm. Sorry about that.
Excellent post Dee. Unfortunately, since you are a woman and I am a man, I cannot allow you to teach me anything!
Seriously though, I have undoubtedly been labeled unteachable by the senior pastor of UCCD. As far as I can tell that means that I hold to some well thought out views which differ from what the senior pastor was taught at SBTS.
“Censorship is something I’ve always been against. It’s the kind of ordinance that comes down from people that don’t like to think very hard and aren’t prepared to analyze themselves, just judge others, and are scared of the future.”
-John Lydon, “Anger is an Energy: My Life Uncensored”
“In abusive discipleships, sin is expanded to mean almost anything that the leaders don’t like (e.g., challenging leader’s actions, not obeying leaders’ advice, disagreeing with leaders, questioning leaders, or openly criticizing leaders).
The most common non-Biblical idea that is planted in members’ minds by abusive groups is that they are rebellious, hard-hearted, or prideful when they decide not to follow the group’s rules.”
Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free from Churches that Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, page 12
“If we are taught to trust totally and are discouraged from criticizing leaders openly, then we lose the ability to think critically. That is why it is unhealthy to stray from Scripture and teach trusting our leaders. If our leaders don’t want us to be critical of their actions when they are doing something wrong, then we shouldn’t follow these leaders. They are supposed to be servants, not dictators. Leaders need to have humility in order to be able to accept honest criticism.”
Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, page 61
“Often the leaders do not want their followers to even consider information. Attacking the motives and credibility of a critic is an effective way to accomplish this. When members are conditioned by leaders to believe that information is credible only if the source of that information is acceptable, it is unlikely followers will seriously consider anything said by those ridiculed by the leaders. These victims become putty in the hands of these leaders.”
“Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse,” by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, page 144
“Certainly there will always be error in our current churches just as there was in Corinth. We will always need brave Christians to stand up and challenge church leaders who are straying. If we habitually see as divisive those who disagree with or challenge leaders’ actions, we may miss God’s leading. Yes, independent thinkers will often create divisions. Because they may be from God, they are deserving of a reasoned response and careful study.”
Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, page 141
Who called victims Javerts?
SGM was built on mockery. A church planting movement that was totally built on moving to town, mocking the local Christian churches, stealing their flock. From it’s inception in TAG, SGM was a church-splitting movement. In addition to splitting local churches all over the country and even the world, mockery was used to control and intimidate and coerce members through thought control.
The statement about the most dangerous guy in the church being the guy who questions your ungodly leadership is a key philosophical heresy that is destroying these movements.
The philosophy that you are not called by God, we IDENTIFY you as called by us ensures “yes men” in leadership.
If a man stands on his scruples and challenges their heresy, he is a prophet. The only hope for the church is if they listen to him.
I will be honest, the idea that this movement of people are modeling CJ and other spiritual abusers leaves me feeling hopeless for Christianity.
Have they learned nothing from this?
Checklist – The Language of Enslavement – Check those that apply to you and /or your group:
Labels me as “struggling” when I don’t want to follow my discipler’s advice.
Leaders categorize disciples as having a bad heart when these individuals are only offering healthy criticism of the leaders.
Teaches that all doubt is wrong, especially doubt about the group.
Total commitment is rarely possible without a discipler.
I feel an urge to imitate my leader in every way possible.
Strongly emphasizes obedience to leaders of the group.
I would be falling away from God or regressing spiritually if I quit the program (church).
Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, page 96
“These words come from an apostle, a leader in the church, and so I don’t think all Christians are necessarily called to speak with such biting words.”
It’s clear that God only calls narcissists to the pulpit. Their fragile egos are just not cut out for the pews.
I have often found that the ones that spiritually insult others and play the prophet card with spirit lead advice were never around when folks got really down and actually needed a human being. I always found that rather strange considering they are the ones taking on the mantle of authority reading into your life their projections. I have also found that they actually could care less if you dropped dead in front of them as well. I have to admit that I have been a huge failure in this area, I am quick to apologize, I keep my mouth shut if i think it will hurt people unless its an abuse issue and I dont try to win arguments. This makes me a failure as a follower of Christ, a man, a human, and an American. I get that but well I just dont like to hurt people.
In other words, if your pastor can not sway you from your perspective, then he must resort to Gospel insults since you are unteachable. Never mind that he might be wrong…
Why does anyone take these guys as serious thinkers? This is nothing short of bullying with a theological window dressing.
So we are going to insult people into the Kingdom of God now. I can see that working.
The most dangerous person in the church?
The man whose mind has been shrunk to fit by a seminary that is itself stunted and warped by wanton
ideological inbreeding. He’s full of knowledge but empty of love (and precisely because his mind isn’t large, he can be “full of knowledge” whilst knowing surprisingly little). That’s why he imagines that others are unteachable.
And because he’s been given power and a title, while he’s still too young to understand what they’re for, he’ll use them for himself. He’ll convince himself that what’s good for him is good for the gospel. Because he learned to lead before he learned to serve, he’ll convince himself that leading is serving and will call himself a “servant leader” even as he polishes the art of lording it over others.
Well, actually, this is true. And “learn to recognise” does not mean “let your pastor label for you”. So, when anointed, mature, biblically-literate church members who minister out in the real world, call out worldliness and falsehood in titular christian leaders, those leaders must not simply cluck their tongues and say, “oh, don’t say those nasty things, you should be more submissive to me”.
And one more.
I see. Good; I look forward to the day when the leaders to whom this author refers also follow Paul’s example in healing the sick, casting out demons and raising from the dead those who have fallen out of upstairs windows while listening to them speak. I also expect to see them gladly suffer beatings, imprisonment and being shipwrecked.
Unless they believe that “the spirit-filled life” is only for them, I also expect them to encourage others to follow the example they have set in word and deed.
Very rarely do folks in the pews see this unless they “sin by questioning”. For some reason such attitudes from the pulpit get a pass. I once heard a mega church pastor say something to the effect: you can “spank” a huge audience from stage but only spank an individual in private.
But more and more people are “reading” them online, too. Think of how this plays out. The person who sees themselves as the authority in a relationship or group might welcome this thinking.
The key to all this seems to be encouraging people to think for themselves and make their own decisions.
This movement has produced some of the most shallow, thin skinned, scardy cat guys I have ever seen in my life. They simply cannot handle any dissent or disagreement. That is why they always resort to ad homenim to tu quoque responses within the machine gun proof texting attack. What is even more chilling is they don’t even realize they are using sociopathic methods of communication. If it were one or two but ten years of upclose where I live and blogging with them convince me this is ingrained in the indoctrination methods. “We have the true Gospel” and they are ignorant rubes we must teach.
They were trained by indoctrination and it is all they know. They do well within their own bubbles so they must protect the bubble at all costs. But they have to find ways to get people to pay them so they can lord it over them!
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
This is Grudem’s specialty. Anyone who questions his interpretation or his scholarship is a liberal or a [secular] feminist. It is impossible that anyone might see things differently and be faithfully studying the Bible or an inerrantist like P.B. Payne.
Gram3 wrote:
Or Rebecca Merrill Groothius and Roger Nicole. Both Reformed and both mutualists from years of studying.
For some reason these types cannot claim inerrancy according to Grudem and fans.
Before my church discipline process, I hosted community groups in my home every week. These were intended to reinforce the content of Sunday’s (really bad) sermon. Self-disclosure and honest prayer requests were discouraged as the presiding church elder, who couldn’t exegete his way out of a paper bag, reviewed from his written notes the points of the sermon. Questions were discouraged as he was unable to answer them. I recall on very rare occasions adding additional salient verses to the conversation, to counter, say, eternal damnation of those who have never heard the gospel.
My reward for providing the home, refreshments, and engagement in the group for several years? I was invited to a private meeting in this elder’s home, with all 4 elders (including the pastor) and only myself (a divorced mother), present. I was led to believe their intent was supportive (otherwise why would I have attended?). Once the door was shut, the elder in question took out a list of bible verses from proverbs about fools and read them aloud to the group, but directed them toward me. He then put his list down and looked at me and said, “Better to be a fool than proud. You are proud and arrogant.” I don’t remember the specifics of the berating that followed because I was absolutely shell-shocked.
When I reported this episode to the district EFCA (Evangelical Free Church of America) office in an email which I allowed to be shared with the elders, I was put under church discipline and later excommunicated for “slandering the elders.” Their response? “It never happened! We never said that!”
MissionaryNow wrote:
For its present form in conservative evangelicalism, definitely. I would have added “American” but we seem to be exporting this everywhere that has some money.
IMO, they are modeling their ministries on C.J. Mahaney because he demonstrated success with doing exactly what they wanted to do: take over existing churches by various means including hiding what they are really about, converting the resources of other churches to their own uses, and building a movement. They wanted to do that, and C.J. showed them how it is done. That, IMO, is what accounts for the spiritual bromance between Mahaney and Dever, Mohler, and Duncan. In exchange, Mahaney got promoted as some sort of guru on humility and the gospel. They don’t convert people to Jesus, they convert them to their ideology.
Yeah, keep calling people names, sure some will still, but a bunch will hit the door and never come back….
@ Janet Varin:
And there you have it.
Of course, if it was a Gospel™ Insult, why not own up to it? Wouldn’t that be quenching the Holy Spirit that prompted the insult?
Janet Varin wrote:
I’ve been in that meeting. Shell-shocked is a good way of putting it. It took us a while to process “What just happened. And why?” Along with “Are those the same people we thought we knew?”
We also got the deafening silence which followed an inability to answer questions from the Bible. Only the same talking points we had heard everywhere else. The funny thing about reading the stories at TWW is how similar they are in many respects to our story.
Maybe they are using the book Todd cites as a how-to resource.
I want to go off on a rant here. In every church I’ve been a part of for any significant period of time (whether it’s by some violent overreaction to Charismatics, or out of a desire to keep members in line, I don’t know – don’t care), the Holy Spirit has been so muted to me I’m not even sure what it means to be prompted. Listening to the Holy Spirit was never emphasized beyond a passing mention if the verse demanded it be mentioned. Otherwise His role in my life was so downplayed as to be nonexistent. Why?? It’s so darned clear that the Holy Spirit has a very personal work in the hearts of every believer, daily, but why was it never taught to me like that? My first joke of a “pastor” spun the verse that says “He will guide you into All Truth” into His work in bringing his (the “pastor’s”) theological system (Calvinist Dispensationalism) into being sometime in the 1600’s or whenever the heck he said it came about.
You can’t make this stuff up.
Maybe that’s on me for not giving Him the credit for the times I have been prompted, so I don’t remember them. I don’t know. I do know everything I was taught minimized His work to the point I wasn’t even looking for it or wanting it.
Now these guys want to ascribe Gospel™ Insults to Him.
Deebs, permission to swear?
I am busy taking my parents to 3 different doctor’s appointments today. I will be commenting off and on throughout the day. In the meantime, I leave you with another Matin Luther insult.
“You are the most insane heretics and ingrafters of heretical perversity.”
http://ergofabulous.org/luther/?
Velour wrote:
Wonder if God said, “Mark, you and Grace will plant a church on the northeast corner of Main and Lindsay in Mesa”? (There’s a Kmart on that corner which is closing…)
@ Janet Varin:
This just makes my blood boil. The arrogance and cruelty. You know the worst? People will ask what you did wrong. And so many tell me, they really don’t know because the response did not match anything that might have taken place in asking a wrong type of question or whateverd. People have NO IDEA how insecure and thin skinned these guys are. IF they weren’t. they would not do star chambers. There would be no need.
@ Daisy:
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man hurl vile insults at his friends.”
John 15:13 TGC version
Janet Varin wrote:
Oh, yes. I got conned into a few of those meetings myself when the leaders told my husband they just wanted to “encourage” me.
I’m not surprised they lied about it later. I’m sorry you went through that.
GovPappy wrote:
Calvinism + Dispensationalism sounds like the Worst Possible Combination.
Incidentally, Calvinism dates from the mid-to-late 1500s and Dispensationalism to the 1830s. Both are attempts to Have God All Figured Out, the entire Bible reconciled as a single Spiritual Engineering Manual without ANY inconsistencies.
Gram3 wrote:
doubleplusduckspeak INGSOC, comrade.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
One of my former cult’s favorite phrases (which my husband’s parents just recently used on him) is “you just have an attitude.” Classic thought-terminating cliche.
I can’t believe the absurd articles that show up on TGC website. Because these articles are on TGC site, many people read them and NEVER QUESTION the validity or truthfulness of what is written. Does TGC take no responsibility for what people will learn when reading their site? Is this teaching what TGC wants men and women to believe? If this is what TGC want people to believe, then wow, just wow
Who do I report TGC to for allowing false teaching on their website? I need a report button . . . please.
Gram3 wrote:
… and then, when it’s past the point of no return for the host church, the parasite breaks out and the real purposes are revealed.
Not exactly anything new in that. It’s the plot of the *Alien* movies. Add a completing version of authoritarianism, say with prosperity gospel leanings, and you’ve got the plot of *AVP: Aliens vs. Predators*, which used the promotional tagline, “Whoever wins … we lose.”
This parasitic life form is relentless. And, apparently, repentless.
Headless Unicorn Guy
Incidentally, Calvinism dates from the mid-to-late 1500s and Dispensationalism to the 1830s. Both are attempts to Have God All Figured Out, the entire Bible reconciled as a single Spiritual Engineering Manual without ANY inconsistencies.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Incidentally, Calvinism dates from the mid-to-late 1500s and Dispensationalism to the 1830s. Both are attempts to Have God All Figured Out, the entire Bible reconciled as a single Spiritual Engineering Manual without ANY inconsistencies.
You are exactly right. Not coincidently, this same “pastor” was all into conspiracy theories and number theories and prophetic codes in the Bible. Since God is a God of order (great truth!), therefore everything in the Bible must have deep meaning and purpose even beyond what it actually says, even down to things like the middle verse in the entire Bible (even though we all knew verse markings were a late addition).
I don’t want to get too far off in this mostly irrelevant tangent (I could go all day), but it is relevant in that these Gospel™ boys aren’t too far removed from the logic of that kind of crazy.
@ Jack:
you said it so well, Jack.
the ‘protesting protestants’… indeed get credit for your quip — you could start an Wikipedia entry, in fact your comment above would be great content. you’ve nailed down the reality quite well, in my opinion. if you include your name somehow, there’s some historicity going back to you.
Why use Paul’s insults when you could use Jesus’?
Matthew 5: 12-16 – Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?” He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them: they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”
“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them.
My snide-side is inspired. I feel led to start my own list of insults:
1. As flighty as Piper fleeing a muscular woman
2. The Gospel Constipation- when you’re plugged up by secondary issues
3. As scared as Driscoll facing a real man
4. The Calvinista chant: Nothing comes between me and my Calvin genes. (bad pun about an old commercial)
5. Furtik is just helping God by getting a head-start on his heavenly mansion in the Carolina woods.
When it comes to interpreting the Bible, every passage must be interpreted in the context of the Bible. Joe Rigney appears to conveniently skip over all the passages about being careful with your speech and loving in order to provide a justification for being a rude human being.
At least that’s how it looks to me.
@ MissionaryNow:
“I will be honest, the idea that this movement of people are modeling CJ and other spiritual abusers leaves me feeling hopeless for Christianity.”
+++++++++++++++++
you flatter these nincompoops. God-Jesus-Holy Spirit-in-us is alive and well ex ekklesia.
Janet Varin wrote:
I am so sorry that this happened to you. How awful for the first meeting to have happened, but then to have them deny it entirely? It’s shocking. I hope that you are finding healing. It is awful to have the leaders of your church turn on you.
Janet Varin wrote:
At my former NeoCal church the techies turned on their iphones tape recording feature and secretly taped the elders’ abusing them, without witnesses, in meetings. (I won’t discuss the law on this point, only to say that people have to do what they have to do to protect and defend themselves.) The former church secretary, a conservative, married woman, who refused to attend the church anymore was hauled into a meeting with the elders too. Smart woman that she is, knowing how they play this game, she brought her new pastor with her and didn’t tell the elders. They couldn’t do a thing to her in front of him! Smart woman.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
My quip to that would be: “Why thank you for the compliment. I learned it from my Father, Jesus Christ.”
Janet Varin wrote:
“Ees Party Line, Comrades!”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union
Bridget wrote:
Because these TGC articles are the New Gospel(TM), the New SCRIPTURE(TM).
“It Is Written! It Is Written! It Is Written!”
Abi Miah wrote:
That is true. What happened, however, merely revealed their basic disposition toward the pewpeons: they are enemies to be subdued or mobs to be quelled.
On the other hand, if their basic disposition were to be real pastors and real teachers, that is what they would do: care for the flock and teach the people to conform themselves to Christ’s image. Instead, they beat the flock and teach the people to conform themselves to the images of their leaders.
It is inside out, backwards, and upside down.
EricL wrote:
Had to repeat that. I think you are out of order, however, unless you are a leader. Otherwise, I think this qualifies you as a Dangerous Person.
This is really a quite staggering article by TGC. So much for the sermon on the mount where our Lord warns us about even calling someone a fool. Ever heard of the verse ‘ a soft word turns away wrath.’ Of course there may be situations when we must speak out but I would think that they would be few and far between- not an almost daily occurrence. Good work again calling this to our attention.
Bridget wrote:
I think TWW is a report button for a lot of things that need to be reported. Do not hold your breath waiting for the Gospel Glitterati or other authoritarians to solicit correction. They neither perceive the need for it nor want it. And they do not apologize because they are right by definition due to being the Leaders.
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Gram3 wrote:
You forgot sideways 😉
OT: Have any celebrity pastors even mentioned the abomination that is Amnesty International’s vote in favor of decriminalizing pimps and johns?
Velour wrote:
It’s annoying that a woman has to bring another man with her to shut up the male leadership of her church. In other words, what she had to say didn’t matter at all.
Gram3 wrote:
Nah, I’m as sweet and gentle as John MacArthur as a Charismatic convention.
EricL wrote:
Well, actually MacArthur was in his own comfort zone when he had his charismatic rant. I don’t think that he would even be seen at a Charismatic convention (whatever that looks like), much less rant in someone else’s comfort zone, so to speak.
@ Joan:
Well, Gene Emerson, lead pastor at SGM’s KingsWay Church has been convicted of soliciting a prostitute. However, the church claims he was wrongfully convicted and only guilty of bad judgement. They are supposedly supporting a lawsuit against those who arrested him. We will write on this tomorrow.
I guess exploiting women and children is not as bad homosexual behavior in some circles.
@ Abi Miah:
Well, been there and done that. At our former, former church (we have 2) pastors denied a meeting between parents of a sexually molested boy took place even though one of them confessed in private that the meeting took place and we had secretly (but legally)n recorded it. They refused to respond and instead attacked up for recording the meeting.
So even proof of a meeting is denied by these types of abusive churches.
@ M.A.N.:
I have come to the conclusion that these guys can turn any Bible verse into an excuse for bad behavior on their part.
EricL wrote:
There is saying around North Carolina “If God isn’t a Tarheel, then why is the sky Carolina blue? Maybe Furtick is starting to claim his place in heaven?
Off to another doctor’s appointment for my elderly parents. i leave you with another Luther insult.
“Even if the Antichrist appears, what greater evil can he do than what you have done and do daily?”
http://ergofabulous.org/luther/?
@ Janet Varin:
There’s an Evangelical Free Church close by in my area (Southern Cal.). I’m wondering if your story has been lived out and repeated there too. In addition to your account, I’ve been told by others in my area that they’re very authoritarian and will brook no dissent or toleration of any kind. Your story made me think of Anne Hutchinson’s trial and expulsion from Massachusetts in 1637.
dee wrote:
Sounds like an apt description of Potter.
dee wrote:
Their silence in the face of Amnesty’s betrayal of more than half the planet is an outrage, but I’m not surprised. Commodifying the bodies of women and children doesn’t threaten complementarian dogma, whereas the gay issue does.
Divorce Minister wrote:
This is a very good point! As well as the paragraph following this one.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
You’re in good company. I imagine the Pharisees thought of Jesus as “unteachable.”
Don’t forget the Godspell™ Art of ‘Insults’:
“Alas, alas for you,
Lawyers and pharisees
Hypocrites that you be!
Searching for souls and fools to forsake them,
You travel the land, you scour the sea,
After you’ve got your converts you make them
Twice as fit for hell!
As you are yourselves!…”
brad/futuristguy wrote:
At least some of God’s people are waking up to its presence and leaving the churches where it resides. Slowly, but leaving nonetheless.
Several weeks ago the elders of our former church finally jumped the shark in their public *discipline* of a church member. They shed their sheep suits and showed themselves for the wolves that they really are. People were shocked.
Many long-time members resigned and now many attend another local church. The elder wolves are sending one of their own to stand outside the entrance to this other church on Sunday mornings. When he sees former church members approaching he accuses them of being in sin and tells them to return to the former church or they’ll be publicly disciplined, too.
I think these ridiculous and desperate actions – and the wacky articles coming out of TGC – are signs that the beginning of the end for this latest reincarnation of Calvinist authoritarianism is nigh. May it stay buried this time.
Jenny wrote:
Great post! Glad many of your church’s members caught on to the wolves and left that spiritually abusive church.
Here is (conservative, Baptist) pastor Wade Burleson’s very good article that the most serious threat to today’s churches is authoritarianism, not legalism:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/01/our-problem-is-authoritarianism-and-not.html
(Burleson is a long-time Baptist pastor in Oklahoma and he is the pastor here on The Wartburg Watch’s Sunday EChurch.)
Ah well, the “gospel” coalition.
The group that starts with dishonesty in its name (because, let’s face it, “coalition” implies collaboration of different entities, not identical ones, so it’s a neo-calvinistic league, not a coalition of different christians who all believe the gospel; and it’s not about the gospel, but about their insidious form of neo-calvinism).
The group that goes on to defend a blackmailer and alleged cover-upper of child abuse, a certain CJM, and isnsists on calling that standing up for the gospel.
The group that insists on church bylaws that sets pastors up as dictators and sets pew-sitters up for abuse, and insists on calling that gospel church polity.
The group that insists on
complementarianismfemale subordinationism/male supremacism and insists on calling it gospel gender roles.The group that seems to be made up of very fearful people:
– men that are afraid of intelligent and – heaven forbid!- assertive women
– pastors that are afraid of members that know their bibles and know how to argue their conviction.
…
And they insist that becoming more and more authoritarian is biblical.
And they insist that insulting everyone who opposes them is biblical.
From Dante Alighieri’s inferno: “Abandon all hope, you who enter here.” Not very compatible with a Gospel of Hope.
It’s really the hopeless coalition. I will call it that from now on.
mirele wrote:
Bringing *a witness* (man or woman of any kind of smarts and rank) is what shut the pastors/elders up. But the NeoCal pastors/elders had contempt for all – men and women alike.
Gus wrote:
Here is (conservative, Baptist) Pastor Wade Burleson’s excellent blog article about the greatest threat to churches today is authoritarianism, not
legalism.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/01/our-problem-is-authoritarianism-and-not.html
Wade is the pastor on The Wartburg Watch’s Sunday EChurch. (He pastors a Baptist church in Oklahoma and is a decent, fair-minded, man.)
__
“One bite, and the’re good for da whole day?”
hmmm…
First rule of dealing with 501(c)3 ‘vampire’ calvinestas? Watch your neck, n’ don’t turn your back…
bump!
Second rule of dealing with 501(c)3 ‘vampire’ calvinestas? Avoid their theological tredmills…(1)
***
“From The Horse’s Mouth…” ™ :
“Individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb, to certain death, and are to glorify Him by their destruction.” – John Calvin; ‘Institutes Of The Christian Religion’, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6.
Watch your step, huh?
ATB
Sopy
—
(1) comic relief:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0zR4jQ5Qj7k
🙂
—
william wallace wrote:
The Lord wasn’t talking about any of us ever using the word *fool*. He used it. The entire book of Proverbs is about it (don’t be a fool, don’t listen to fools, don’t hire a fool, don’t keep company with fools, and on and on). The Lord was talking about the Jewish belief that murder was the only thing that could get you in trouble with God. Jesus was addressing a heart issue in that passage: murderous anger, not a word. Jesus Himself called people names where appropriate.
Velour wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I knew it already, but it can’t be linked to often enough.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Thank you for posting those quotes from that book. It reminds me, I need to read it! (It’s on my “to do” list.)
Gus wrote:
Glad you were ahead of me, Gus!
Gram3 wrote:
This!
dee wrote:
It amazes me how people who claim to be so passionate about the ‘truth’ can me so easily shape it to fit their ideas.
4. Jesus insulted the Scribes and Pharisees. Therefore, leaders should follow His example.
I find this rather confusing and wonder how Joe Rigney would respond to Acts 23:4-5. Here Paul actually apologizes for insulting Ananias because he was a high priest. So would Rigney agree that insults to today’s equivalent of a high priest would not be appropriate?
Jenny wrote:
An Attorney, LawProf, Judge Tim:
Isn’t that called “Harassment” and “Stalking”?
Especially if the ManaGAWD “publicly disciplines” (i.e. assaults) the runner on the spot?
Garland wrote:
And the original source those lyrics were adapted from (almost word-for-word)…
dee wrote:
“BDuggars … they’re CHRISTIAN … Guess it’s okay to bang your sisters as long as you’re not GAY…”
— overheard on the 480 bus a couple months ago during Duggargate
(Ever notice how many of these MenaGAWD go down in sex scandals? Often with someone opposite-sex but underage? Like Polishing-the-Shaft Schaapf, Douggie ESQUIRE, and Got Hard?)
Gram3 wrote:
The Party Can Do No Wrong, Comrades.
Ees Party Line, Comrades.
Gram3 wrote:
As in Suppressive Person invoking Fair Game Law from Gold Base/Flag?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This is being done on the private property of the other church, too. I hope someone tells security and the leaders at the new church about it.
Gram3 wrote:
This. Maybe we ought stop calling them churches and start referring to them as *ALCs* – authoritarian leadership cults.
dee wrote:
Not just “excuse”.
Divine Sanction for bad behavior by Divine Right.
Gram3 wrote:
“Up, Down, In and Out
Livin’ La Vida Loca!”
GovPappy wrote:
“Men of Sin” will glom onto any Cosmic-level authority to get Cosmic-level Justification for what they were going to do anyway.
Joe Rigney is struggling to proof text his way through this mean fruit doctrine. The truth is closer to the fact that many of their old dead guy mentors were as mean as snakes. One of the thing that shocked me when researching the Reformation and Reformed doctrine from Augustine to Luther, Calvin all the way through to the Puritans was how mean these guys were. Augustine claimed the Donatists deserved to be wiped out because they refused to take sacraments from corrupt priests. Luther is self explanatory when it comes to women, jews and peasants…and some of Calvins letters were downright cry baby fodder when there was any reaction to his cruelty. The Institutes are a black hole or circular reasoning to present a cruel God. The Puritan leaders gave me the chills in some of what they wrote and were experts in Gestapo tactics.
These are the hero’s of their belief system. Some scary dead tyrants are what passes for “love” in their world.
@ Jenny:
Jenny, I hope the church they are standing in front of to intimidate former members will give these tyrants a sweet laugh and invite them in for coffee. Maybe, just maybe, the authoritarian deacons will find Jesus there. One can hope. But those sorts of churches are few and far between anymore.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
🙂
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man hurl vile insults at his idiotic, loser friends. You loser.”
John 15:13 TGC version
LOL
GovPappy wrote:
I think this is called ELS (Equal-distance (or Equidistant) Letter Sequences).
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
What was that word accusation the SGM guys used all the time in sgmwikileaks docs against each other and especially CJ? Was it unentreatable? unentreatability? It is one of those words I came across in Puritan writings.
M.A.N. wrote:
King James Only IFBs are really into this “insulting people is okay because Jesus yelled at the Pharisees” stuff. I used to run into them quite a bit years ago.
One of my pet peeves has always been Christians who are rude in a post or e-mail, but then sign it off with a lovey comment, usually, “God Bless.”
At least back when I was totally Christian and the few times I chewed someone out online, I never, ever tried to white-wash my bad attitude by signing off with “God bless” or something like it.
I was at least being honest and upfront with my crankiness. I wish other Christians would do likewise, instead of thinking that signing off with “God Bless” in posts or emails covers, or makes up for, ten paragraphs of vile insults.
Muff Potter wrote:
Her crime? She held an unauthorized bible study in her home. The Puritan leaders had to interpret scripture for the pew peons. Sound familiar?
Daisy wrote:
And related to that.
Christians who flip you off in traffic or cut you off, but hey, that’s okay, because they have a Jesus fish sticker or a “Jesus Loves You” bumper sticker. That makes me cringe.
My dad honked his horn once at a guy who had a sticker on his bumper that said, “Honk if you love Jesus,” and the guy gave my dad the “middle finger salute” (American obscene hand gesture).
@ Lydia:
Yep.
http://sbcvoices.com/church-authority-and-church-discipline-anonymous/
My goodness, are we seeing cracks in the foundation? This SBC Reformed pastors blog was hailing “church discipline” a few years back as THE answer and promoting authoritarianism.
oops, I mean to put that in open discussion. So sorry!
mirele wrote:
It’s also kind of sad that some men don’t appreciate sexism against women unless or until they become a father to a daughter. Then all the sudden their eyes are opened, and they care, and they see the sexism.
Or, sometimes women have to appeal to men, like “Hey, what if this woman was your sister, mother, aunt, or grandmother.” I wish more men could just care about women in general, without the appeal to “what if she was your sister /mother etc” line.
I’ve never once had to play mental gymnastics like this.
Like when I see a news article about a guy who is beaten up and robbed or whatever, I automatically think, “How awful.” and/or “I know I wouldn’t want that to happen to me.”
I don’t have to pause and mentally contort and go,
“Oh wow, I have a brother and a father. I could only imagine how terrible it would be for my brother and dad to get robbed. So this must be awful for this guy to be robbed.”
@ Janet Varin:
Janet have you seen this post? It is my 100th post. One of the things I would like to do is write about the Evangelical Free Church over at my blog. If there are people that want to tell their stories anonymously of people at Trinity that want to say something anonymously they are free to do so.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/for-my-100th-post-the-wondering-eagles-vision-and-goals/
Jenny wrote:
Oh, brother. Time to wear “bite me” t-shirts to church, and saunter past this capo while singing the chorus to this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPk4_XfYhjg
Here’s another post I did last week. It deals with how I managed a false accusation for 408 days from a care Group Leader from Redeemer Arlington.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/08/08/how-i-managed-a-false-accusation-given-birth-to-by-a-usaf-captain-and-care-group-leader-from-redeemer-arlington-for-408-days/
@ Janet Varin:
Janet,
Your story just jarred my memory. So sorry you were treated so poorly. I was in a couples bible study which had a few elders in it. I was sincere & asked a few questions about a story they had shared about how this elders wife witnessed to the Drs. & nurses in E.R. with her calm demeanor after her husband was in a serious accident. I pointed out to them that my temperament would not be calm, I would be scared silly for my husband & asked if they would consider me a bad witness? Oh boy, did I ever get dressed down for admitting to my humanity. The elder is charge shook his finger at me & said I was coming on too strong. Yikes. Then he asked everyone in B.S. ( ; bible study, if they wanted to be a care & share group or a bible study. Can’t make this crap up. Everyone voted to be a b.s. I walked out of there so heart broken & confused.
@ dee:
Prostitute eh? A “Gospel Centered Night on the Town!” Wow…Gene Emmerson from what I read at SGM Survivors was quite hard on people. No mercy, tyrannical and little to no grace. No that the tables are turned grace is everything. What a crock of $%#^!!!
Daisy wrote:
My narcissist/sociopath brother used “God Bless!” as a cussword, spoken with a tone of pure sneering bile and venom. Our parents (especially Dad) couldn’t distinguish voice tones (Aspergers?) and took the words entirely at face value. He got a big kick out of this, cussing them out entirely by voice tone and not only getting away with it but getting praised by them for it.
@ Eagle:
Speaking about the power of words I like the way I wrote this post. I wrote about how words helped push the State Auditor in Missouri in the gubernatorial race to commit suicide. I used that as an intro to how a false accusation could have destroyed me.
@ Lydia:
I actually am wondering if Joe Rigney helps explain why so many Neo-Cals supported Mark Driscoll for years in light of his insults, crude and crass behavior, etc…
GovPappy wrote:
i.e. Numerology and Bibliomancy, otherwise known as Divination MAGICK.
And nothing can pinch you off from reality like a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory.(At least before the introduction of Smartphones and Social Media.) Where EVERYTHING and EVERYONE (except you, of course) is part of The Conspiracy. Like the guy in Bob Dylan’s “Talking John Birch Conspiracy Blues”, you can go in so deep into the Conspiracy Head Trip you can’t get out.
“Did World War Two even happen? Do I even exist? Or is that what THEY want me to think?”
— Oliver Stone during an interview about his experience making his Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy movie
For a good read on the subject, check out Conspiracy Theories and Secret Societies for Dummies, one of the “For Dummies” books. Best overview of it I’ve ever read.
Daisy wrote:
I know somebody who did that here. The guy she honked at and told to get out of the way happened to be a cop in his patrol car! She got a big ticket for that. (Mitigating factor: She is from another country with horrible traffic problems and driving; she wasn’t used to our country’s patrol cars.)
@ Lydia:
I’m working on a post at my blog for Friday about the upcoming SEBTS 9 Marks conference in September on church discipline. Since we’re talking about 9 Marks and Jonathan Leeman and authority Cartman is opening up the post saying, “respect my authoritah!”
@ Eagle:
I was thinking the same exact thing! They have to repackage the “bold in your face insulting meany” behavior now cos Driscoll is an embarrassment.
In other news:
fnoop.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
What does this mean? You made this comment on another thread too, but it doesn’t compute.
Eagle wrote:
Suggestion: When you blog about this story I think you should write of this man’s name as Andrew White* (*not his real name).
Anyone with the name of “Andrew White” who wasn’t a part of this story doesn’t deserve to have doubts cast in their direction.
@ Bridget:
Aha. I’m glad to see someone’s paying attention.
What I wrote on the other thread was actually “fneep”.
“Fneep” and “fnoop” are not actually words but, IMHO, the should be. I don’t really know what they should mean, but I’m hoping to embed them somehow.
I hope this is helpful, an’ a’ tha’.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Well, without asking, there was no way to know what meaning, if any, the letters might have. Wondering what meaning/purpose you might be proposing?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Chuck Missler made handsome bank awhile back with his book Cosmic Codes: Hidden Messages. The fundagelical world snatched them up like herring thrown to trained seals.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Here is Urban Dictionary on “fnoop”: “A Fnoop is when you flatten out your hand like a high 5 but hold your hand palm-side up and charge it into someone’s stomach when they’re not expecting it.”
“Fneep”? UD agrees with you on that one: it’s not a word (yet). Perhaps an insult from a YRR “LeadPastor”? It sounds weak and whiny enough.
@ Bridget:
Well, that’s a good question.
I think “fneep” sounds more upbeat than “fnoop”. So, Fneep! 🙂 could mean something like, Great comment, Bridget! – or whoever it was replying to. Whereas Fnoop! 🙁 could mean something like, I can’t believe anyone actually buys this man’s books… or similar. You never know; it could become a Thing.
Maybe one day Deebs will look back on this and laugh…
JohnD wrote:
Sorry I missed your comment, John – it appeared while I was typing my last one. Didn’t realise fnoop was a word, but I think my idea’s better than Urban Dictionary’s.
God@ Nick Bulbeck:
It’s a good thing I’m long-suffering and of great goodness.
Best regards,
@ God:
In a mysterious sense, My last post became slightly scrambled. I gave this as a sign of the times, of course.
Best regards,
God
That’s probably enough of that (though obviously I defer to God’s greater experience if He things differently).
Be which as it may, we have a very early start tomorrow and it’s > 10pm here, so I’m off to bed. Bon nuit, tout le monde.
Gus wrote:
Gus, I think you got a lot of the highlights. I imagine that even old time Calvinists get embarrassed by this group. They originally pretended that they were a collation of evangelicals that was attempting to work together to expand the gospel. However, that charade has been discarded. They are just a tribe that is interested in protecting its own. It has little to do with ethics. Therefore we protect people like CJ or Chandler. They are part of the tribe. On the other hand, we do not want people who know the Bible, the history of the church, etc. They may be able to shed light on what is occurring. Those are the ones we need to destroy.
God wrote:
Dear God of Great Goodness,
Could you send some Yorkshire Pudding to America?
Very truly yours,
a fan of Yours and of Yorkshire Pudding
Velour, online sister in Christ to “Satin” (sic), daughter of “Stan” (sic)
Jenny wrote:
Dee, maybe TWW could look into this one. I agree with the comments above, this looks like stalking and harassment. If it continue, it may be time to bring in an attorney.
John Benn wrote:
That’s what I find so amazing about Grudem and Piper!
Velour wrote:
I will bestow on you the Manifestation of Yorkshire Pudding:
200g of plain flour, sieved into a mixing bowl with
2 large eggs
+ a little salt
Then gradually whisk in 250 ml of milk until the batter is smooth.
Pour into a pre-heated baking tray, or trays, with a bit of butter or oil in the bottom; roast in a hot oven for 15 minutes or so. See, I have given you this (and other things) for food; be fruitful, rule over this recipe and subdue it. And be assured, I am with you always, even if you burn the edges.
Best regards,
God
Joan wrote:
Bruce Ware is tickled to remind us that woman was made *for* the man.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thank you, God, for being so Kind and Generous. It’s like Manna from Heaven, or so I’ve heard. (I will try not to burn the edges.)
Lydia wrote:
Don’t you like us any more? Is that why you send us to Voices?
nobody wrote:
They are the people who were confused. Just think which way the vote would go with the Pharisees. With Jesus. I once knew a pastor who was as cold as ice about his own family and other issues which should have provoked some human emotion. I never did understand that.
JohnD wrote:
I think your comment is a bit fnoopy toward the YRR younger elders. 🙂
@ Velour:
Andrew is actually a pseudo. Its not his real name.
Eagle wrote:
Eagle wrote:
Hi Eagle,
Yes, I know that. But your readers don’t know that. Please, when you’re writing about this, do clarify that each and every time for your readers.
Thanks.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Needs some peaches, sugar and butter. And some vanilla bean ice cream to top it after it is baked until bubbly. Blackberries are an acceptable substitute. Also cherries in which case chocolate ice cream may be substituted.
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3,
I have invented some new, healthy, low-calorie frozen treats. I freeze bananas (peeled, cut in 1/2).
“Chocolate Milkshake”
1 to 2 frozen banana halves (more if making for more people)
nonfat milk mixed with cocoa powder (unsweetened); don’t add too much liquid otherwise you will lose the nice frozen banana texture
blend
Yummy! Taste and texture of a chocolate milkshake without all of the calories.
“Vanilla Milkshake”
1 to 2 frozen banana halves (more if making for more people)
nonfat milk with some real vanilla
Take a closer look a 9 Marks. When CJ Maheney was under church discipline at the church he founded, Covenant Life Church, he decided that he did not like church discipline and fled to Capitol Hill Church. There, he was welcomed with open arms. How is it possible for 9 Marks and Capitol Hill Church to teach on church discipline and not allowing a member to leave the church if they are under church discipline and yet allow CJ to come to their church. This has been very well documented. Apparently, church discipline is only for church peons not for clergy and certainly not for the celebrity pastors. They don’t practice what they preach, but want to make slaves and lord over us. For shame!
LOL, I though I was posting at another site where they were discussing church discipline!
Teresa wrote:
Welcome, Teresa, to The Wartburg Watch! Yes around here the 9Marks is called 9Marx or “Hotel California” (where you can check in but you can’t check out).
You are a quick study.
Yes, who does discipline the leaders?
dee wrote:
Oh REALLY? Suing someone over an allegedly wrongful conviction is not the way you go about correcting the record. For one thing, the conviction still stands. Gene Emerson will still be guilty of soliciting a prostitute. For another thing, it looks like the church is involved in harassment.
This is how you correct a wrongful conviction: You file an appeal. Has Gene Emerson done that? Seriously, this is so very, very bad. Hello, even Kent Hovind went through the system to appeal (and he got turned down every step of the way, but he worked the system). I hope the church is really not supporting a lawsuit because this is so wrong.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
This sounds like a giant biscuit. Use buttermilk and it could be a giant SOUTHERN biscuit. How do you serve it?
I am rusty on metrics –good thing there is an internet converter.
After reading the blog post and the comments, I thought back to the pastor who resigned from my church 18 months ago (with some help from the elders). I have no idea where he was in terms of Calvinism, but he had definitely been over-exposed to some of the bad boys of the church. He started throwing out zinger critiques and throwing tantrums in the pulpit during his sermons. I was at one business meeting where he had public, three-year old style, meltdown. Shortly after that, he resigned, but my understanding is that the elders said resign or we will help you do it. I’m glad our leadership had the wisdom to do this, and they are getting a lot of congregational input regarding who the next pastor will be. The process has been very transparent thus far.
@ Gram3:
I had to share my shock with someone and chose you good people. :o) That blog was ground zero of promoting the whole church discipline shtick just a few years ago.
Lydia wrote:
Nothing like a biscuit – it’s eggy, with an entire different texture. Roast beef with Yorkshire pudding – yum!
roebuck wrote:
Yes, I was thinking the same. Time to get a roast beef, make some gravy, and some Yorkshire Pudding, and a nice salad.
Velour wrote:
One word… YES!
@ roebuck:
Well I like eggy and roast beef. So I am in.
Velour wrote:
Conversions:
https://www.weekendbakery.com/cooking-conversions/
1 cup flour = 200g
1 1/8 cup milk = 250 ml
preheat oven to 425 degrees
other ideas on how to make Yorkshire Pudding are here:
http://www.food.com/search/yorkshire+pudding
Lydia wrote:
I’d be delighted to cook. I just need someone to do dishes!
Lydia wrote:
Yes, some nice Roast Beef (I like it rare), some Yorkshire pudding (you put the beef juices/gravy on it), and a salad. I haven’t had such a meal in years – it might be time to set about remedying that…
roebuck wrote:
For health reasons, I try to only eat beef twice a month. I haven’t had any beef yet in August. So…I could have a wee bit.
__
Who? : Beating Dat Insult Slinging ‘Pinhead’ Calvinesta?
“From The Horse’s Mouth” ™ :
“Man with all his shrewdness is as stupid about understanding by himself the mysteries of God, as an ass is incapable of understanding musical harmony.” -John Calvin
“Man’s mind is like a store of idolatry and superstition; so much so that if a man believes his own mind it is certain that he will forsake God and forge some idol in his own brain.” -John Calvin
“There is no work, however vile or sordid, that does not glisten before God.” -John Calvin
hmmm…
…that deaf, dumb and blind pew sitter sure ‘plays’ a mean hand of theology!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gpGegoE3Kik
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
Sopy
🙂
—
Velour wrote:
One reason to have kids. :o)
Velour wrote:
You know, for medicinal purposes 😉
Lydia wrote:
LOL.
roebuck wrote:
Exactly!
@ Lydia:
I thought shortbread, but it has eggs in it. Not sounding much like pudding.
@ Bridget:
“It” being Nick’s recipe.
Bridget wrote:
It’s not a pudding in the ‘dessert’ sense – it’s meant to go with beef. It’s not all creamy and gooey like a dessert pudding – more like a lovely eggy moist cake/breadlike thing, meant to receive beef juices. it’s very good in that role.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Dear God of Great Goodness,
Do you let your Yorkshire Pudding batter sit all down long at room temperature? I have read that some people do that so that it rises properly (some people also use 3 eggs).
1 cup flour = 200g
1 1/8 cup milk = 250 ml
preheat oven to 425 degrees
Sincerely,
Lassie Velour
mirele wrote:
They’ll probably justify it with “Do you follow the Laws of Man or the Words of GAWD?????”
Gram3 wrote:
I can’t see that name without reading it as “Bruce Wayne”…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jgE-lrfZ3k
LInn wrote:
That’s nice to hear, Linn. At my former NeoCal church the senior pastor/elder surrounded himself with ‘yes men’/his friends. He even had some move across the country to be placed in the role of elders and had some move in from out of the area in our state.
Velour wrote:
The level of insecurity of so many of these “Christian leaders” is breathtaking…
I am currently on a one week trip to Honduras with my church… we are building homes for the really poor, which is organized by a church in Honduras that takes a “holistic” view to helping people: Gospel through to medical, housing, child development, and teaching kids trades….
I am struck by these people in Honduras are focusing on trying to really address real needs… as opposed to all these “clowns” we are reading about on the WW that are so concerned about their power and control and doctrinal purity.. These clowns need to get off their butts and come down here and do something that can really help hurting people…. maybe somehow the true love of G&d can break through their proud hearts..
Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
Amen, Jeffrey! Have a great trip! I will be praying for ya’ll.
@ Daisy:
🙂
“And now these three remain: faith, hope and insults. But the greatest of these is insults.” 1 Corinthians 13:13 TGC version
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I used to own one. My ex gave me a shirt with a snarling bear on it, and it said “Bite me” in big letters because that used to be one of my catch phrases I used on people when I was grumpy.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Yer killin’ me!
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
That is probably one of my favorites.
Sorry if you’ve already posted this one (you may insult me if this is a repeat), but don’t forget these words of Christ:
From the book of Matthew, Ch. 5, TGC Version:
Verse Number Five:
“Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Verse Number Five and Three Quarters:
“Blessed are those who insult other people, especially other Christians, for their churches shall be more pure and Gospelly than all the others.”
——
This post is brought to you by “Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph,_the_Insult_Comic_Dog
nobody wrote:
😯 They can’t do both? A group can’t come together to discuss the Bible a little AND share problems about life? It’s very cold how they treated you. I’m sorry.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That is so troubling and twisted. 🙁
Gram3 wrote:
Oh dearie me. I’ve never married. I mean, does their weirdo gender theology count if a woman has no man?
Gram3 wrote:
It’s still hard to believe that folks swallow this horse$h… er… ah… malarkey hook line and sinker.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, see – and listen – to this (and ATTN Dee!)
Pug dog singing Bat Man theme
Pug Says Bat Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=673vf_JhnAw
🙂
I have posted “God’s” Yorkshire Pudding recipe (curiously His recipe is the same as Nick’s from the UK) under the tab at the top of the page labeled Interesting and under the Cooking section, in case any of you need to look for it again.
I also added the conversions from metric to US and a link to a food blog that has additional instructions for YP.
“The use of such insults is mainly for pastors and leaders, not the pew sitters.”
I agree with this statement. Mostly pastors and leaders (particularly those with large salaries) deserve these insults.
roebuck wrote:
I have to find a way to laugh at this stuff. When I exited my former cult, I expected Christianity outside the cult to be more normal (whatever that is). Instead, a not insignificant percentage are adopting cultish flavors.
@ Daisy:
🙂
I’m showing this to my kids.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I hope they enjoy it. It’s been online for a couple of years. 🙂
@ me:
🙂
me wrote:
LOL you’re a bad, bad person. *shuns*
Velour wrote:
FWIW, I agree. When I read your original story, I did not realize that it was a pseudo and found that troubling. I don’t recall when/where I found out differently.
@ Daisy:
Thank-You Daisy. You are a peach, it makes me furious how the phew sitters treated you when your beloved mother died. FWIW, a dear friend of mine lost her husband to cancer, a year after his passing she was rebuked for still grieving. Give me a freakin break.
Not sure I agree with the distinction Rigney makes between “Christian leaders” and the laity. Seems unbiblical to have classes of Christ followers who are exempt from basic commands. That and the fact that the Reformed community typically had no problem being angry while gentleness is rarely held forth as an example to follow. Also, I find it full of hubris when self-appointed leaders whether in the Church or outside have to remind everyone that they are a “leader”.
Daisy wrote:
“And your mama dresses you funny.”
Daisy, I think the more complete insult is, “You’re ugly, and your mama dresses you funny.” At least that’s what we yelled at the other team’s players from the bleachers.
@ Jenny:
“Several weeks ago the elders of our former church finally jumped the shark in their public *discipline* of a church member. They shed their sheep suits and showed themselves for the wolves that they really are. People were shocked”
++++++++++++++
You say people were shocked (at the public discipline). can I ask what the issue was for the discipline? How was it handled?
why won’t the leaders of the new church tell the nincompoop from the old church harassing people to scram?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Amen!!
Lydia wrote:
And if it walks like a duck, & talks like a duck…. I don’t say that these guys are sociopaths. I am saying that they act like sociopaths.
__
“True Christianity ™?”
hmmm…
What is it in your life that distinguishes you as a follower of Jesus Christ?
__
See: Matt 7:21-23
—
@ Velour:
Thanks. I am making this over the weekend when I have more time to mess up. :o)
theologian wrote:
This is a HUGE problem all over evangelical Christianity. Rigney takes it as a given. Never mind that whole “we are all priests” thingie in the NT.
Lydia wrote:
Amen…. They want to take us back to pre-Reformation days… Amazing…
Lydia wrote:
The first mistake is leaving out the butter and baking it. If eggs must be included, then it should be cooked on the stove top, piped out on parchment, baked, filled with pastry cream and topped with dark ganache. Alternatively, the eggs can be omitted and butter and peaches and sugar added for a delightful cobbler which makes a great base for ice cream.
Gram3 wrote:
We’re talking about Yorkshire pudding here, not dessert! 🙂
roebuck wrote:
Yes, worldlings talk about worldly things. The spiritually-minded talk about heavenly things. Like dessert. I was merely trying to redeem the worldly discussion. In a helpful way, naturally. 🙂
I have not read all the comments, so I may be repeating someone else. But, two things come to my mind. First, basic biblical interpretation calls for the ability to discern what is prescriptive from what is descriptive. The passage in question is clearly descriptive. Secondly, perhaps reading a truly prescriptive passage(S) might be helpful, such as the following from Ephesians 4:25-5:2
4:25 So then, putting away falsehood, let all of us speak the truth to our neighbors, for we are members of one another. 26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not make room for the devil. 28 Thieves must give up stealing; rather let them labor and work honestly with their own hands, so as to have something to share with the needy. 29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only what is useful for building up, as there is need, so that your words may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption. 31 Put away from you all bitterness and wrath and anger and wrangling and slander, together with all malice, 32 and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you.
5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children, 2 and live in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
But of course the challenge Paul gives us is difficult and especially difficult task for a manly man.
@ danlinrm:
This, exactly.
It all comes from a flawed interpretation of scripture, which makes the fact that they published this article anyway that much more puzzling.
My first “pastor” was a nutjob, but even he understood the principle of prescriptive and descriptive. What are they teaching these guys in seminary?
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
See what Søren Kierkegaard has to say in his essay “Against the Crowd” (or group)
http://www.plough.com/en/articles/2013/april/against-the-crowd
GovPappy wrote:
Mindlessly following the leader is good; thinking (especially theologically) is bad.
danlinrm wrote:
Good article. I have never liked crowds. Never had the mindset of “go along to get along.” To quote John Lydon once again:
“I am the elephant in the room. I’m a stand-up-and-be-counted fella, the last man standing – but that’s in a world where nobody seems to be able to count.”
@ theologian:
“Not sure I agree with the distinction Rigney makes between “Christian leaders” and the laity.”
+++++++++++++
not sure? you leave room for maybe so?
danlinrm wrote:
“Questions lead to Doubt.
Doubt leads to Thinking.
Thinking leads to Heresy.
Heresy demands Retribution.
Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”
— Warhammer 40K
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Except with THEMSELVES as the All-Powerful Priesthood.
Like the Heirarchy in Fritz Leiber’s Gather, Darkness!
Looks like their only beef with Romish Popery was THEY didn’t get to be the Pope.
Daisy wrote:
Oh, it gets better.
My mother had this idea that if you “swore to God” you couldn’t lie, you HAD to be telling the truth. (Or God would punish you?) I think this was a folk belief she picked up while growing up in Boston’s Little Italy.
Well, all my brother had to do was lie (and he is a very expert and sincere liar) and “Swear to God!” and Mom would believe his lie. He took a lot of advantage of this.
Daisy wrote:
One is SPIRITUAL(TM) and the other is Worldly/Fleshly(TM), and they went SPIRITUAL(TM).
I wonder if they will become like Gnostic Pneumatics, so SPIRITUAL(TM) they have no need for food or sleep? That they cease to be human?
danlinrm wrote:
Excellent comment. The Bible is a great and wonderful thing. No other holy book on all the planet makes the claims the Bible does. The real question is: How much of it can be helicoptered out of the way back then and into the here and now? I think you’ve cited quite nicely the stuff that is trans-cultural and has universal application in all times and in all spaces. Whether or not a woman can preach & teach in a mixed corporate assembly? Let each be convinced in his or her own conscience.
I keep seeing the acronym first T and then M used. For some reason my computer will not even let me type it without making it look like an exponent. Anyhow, I looked it up and found a site with 162 meanings listed. What is this and what are you all doing?
What does (™) mean? See what I mean about what the computer does? I have real problems and do not have the time for this.
okrapod wrote:
(™) = sign for legal trademark, as in, “This Mine!” Don’t mess with it. Similar to (c) for copyright and (R) for registered.
Henceforth and forthwith, thou shalt not use the trademarked term Gospel(™) because it is a legal brand name, duly registered with The Powers That Be, and if you (mis)use it, thou shalt be punished. Or shunned.
@ Gram3:
You are talking to a culinary illiterate.
One reason I was attracted to Nick…er.. God’s dish, was ease. Now you are talking piping, parchments and gananche! You do know that is why God invented bakeries :o)
Strange, but it does not “sound” like it tastes good. However, everyone insists it does so I am willing to try it. From what I read, it is a dish that came from the poor which might account for no butter. Would Yorkshire Pud be a form of British comfort food like our Southern grits? Gotta have butter on grits.
@ Lydia:
Here’s the thing. All of the Yorkshire pudding people are carnally minded what with all the talk about beef and such. I, on the other hand, am talking about cream puffs which clearly evoke heavenly imagery of clouds and such. Bakeries, schmakeries. They get their stuff out of buckets.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Let me try this out.
“Two plus two equals twenty-six, I swear to God”
“Donald Duck was the 23rd President of the United States, I swear to God”
This could be kind of fun. 🙂
elastigirl wrote:
The elders disciplined one of their own. It’s my understanding that they accused him of being pugnacious and insubordinate to the board. In a nutshell, he refused to agree with them on something he believed was morally and legally wrong. They did it anyway, he resigned, and things got REALLY ugly after that.
It wasn’t a discipline by Scriptural definition. It was a public shaming and an order to the congregation to shun the man, his family and anyone else who associates with them. It was recorded, so they can’t deny they said it.
The other church is enormous and its leaders could not possibly have known what that elder was doing. One of our friends said they are informing them this week.
It’s all way more sick and complicated than I can write here. It’s a sad example of *live by tyranny, die by tyranny*. EVERYONE involved in this mess is fully vested in an authoritarian Calvinistic System rather than in the Kingdom of God. As HUG often reminds us: What do predators do when they run out of prey? They devour their own. My hope and prayer is that God uses this situation to open many eyes and eventually lead those involved to true freedom in Christ.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This drives me nuts about so many Christians.
You aren’t allowed to have actual NEEDS or to have pain.
I am still trying to sort through anger over this. All the Christians I’ve gone to for (emotional) support since my mother passed away:
I’ve gotten lectured for it, shamed over it, told how it’s selfish for me to expect/ask for support, I should just go read the Bible some more, or go volunteer at charities some more.
I shouldn’t be thinking about my pesky feelings of grief, no sir, I should only be praying about “God stuff” or working in soup kitchens helping others.
You are not allowed to be sad, have needs, or whatever, in my family or churches I’ve gone to. You can only do or care about spiritual stuff, like pray or read the Bible, but nothing else.
@ Gram3:
I have so much to learn. I was taught cream puffs were evil.
Daisy wrote:
Like that not-a-cult I got mixed up in during my junior college years. (Fortunately for me, I was never in really deep.) Everything except SCRIPTURE and WITNESSING were Forbidden, and whatever was not forbidden was Absolutely Compulsory. Backed up with the threat of being Left Behind(TM) and nothing to look forward to but an eternity of Compulsory Bible Study.
What got me out of it (before I got in too deep to come out) was discovering Dungeons & Dragons (three little books plus Greyhawk at the time). No comparison.
Daisy wrote:
But you have to use Plausible Deniability and the principles of Disinformation to get away with it. No obvious absurdities, plausibility, “grooming” the sucker with gradually-increasing drift from reality. Plus mixing in enough truth to keep your credibility. And always keep a plausibly-deniable, completely-innocent fallback position. The same principles as feeding the enemy Disinformation in Intelligence Warfare.
Gram3 wrote:
The point isn’t that anyone (least of all myself) is against tasty desserts and cream puffs and the like. The point is we were talking about Yorkshire pudding, that’s all. Somebody mentioned it, Nick provided a recipe, and there it is. It’s not a sweet dessert – it’s meant to be a foil, an accompaniment, for savory roast beef. That’s all.
Not sure how all the fruit and ganache and sweetness got in there, much less the theological exposition! 😉
@ Jenny:
“EVERYONE involved in this mess is fully vested in an authoritarian Calvinistic System…”
++++++++++++++++
ah, yes, the sin of pugnaciousness. very grave. (ironic look emoticon here)
Thanks for the explanation. This church you describe, how many people attend on a typical Sunday? What you describe seems so extreme, something that would happen in a very small group that is ingrown & gone ‘quite peculiar’ due to lack of outside influence.
is it part of a denomination? or one of those non-denomination denominations?
Lydia wrote:
Welcome, Lydia. Nick’s Yorkshire Pudding recipe is also stored under the Interesting tab (top of page), under the Cooking section.
And remember, Nick is from that island off the coast of Europe full of odd recipes with even odder names.
Gram3 wrote:
Oh, no! Not in the original intent, at least (though your version certainly sounds yummy).
The way I learned Yorkshire Pudding was not with butter or oil in the bottom of the pan, but the liquid drippings of melted fat from a roast, along with some savory meat juices. The pan is already hot from roasting; you move the roast to a platter to rest before carving, crank up the heat (something like 450), pour in the batter and close the oven door quickly without slamming. The Pudding puffs up like magic. It’s done right about the time the roast is ready to carve.
You use the bready result to sop up meat juices on your plate. Heavenly!
refugee wrote:
Yes, you’ve definitely got the spirit of the thing!
Lydia wrote:
It is a puffy, hollow giant popover. (I think that’s the term.)
Sopwith wrote:
Sounds autobiographical to me.
Velour wrote:
Salad? That’s blasphemy woman! With the foods you mentioned you have carrots, broccoli & peas, plus roast potatoes & maybe some roast parsnips if you have them.
I love boiled carrots and potatoes for their own sake. Nothing on them except salt and coarse ground black pepper.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I sometimes find secular stuff more pertinent to something I’m going through than Christian culture stuff.
One thing I wanted to qualify about one of my last posts: it’s true that my family is into repression. You are not supposed to discuss your dirty laundry with others, you’re not supposed to feel sad or upset or admit to feeling that stuff.
Except for my mother – she was fine with me being open with her, talking about my problems, crying in front of her, etc.
My mother was the one person in the family who understood and was not the least bit off put by me leaning on her for emotional support.
It’s the rest of my family (siblings, father, aunts, uncles) who pressure me to repress all this stuff, or they ignore me, or they shame or lecture me into working at charities.
Oddly, though, my sister expects me to give her emotional support. She refuses to give me any, but she has treated me like a sounding board especially since our mother died.
I am not understanding the double standard there: it’s okay for her to express stress, anger, etc, to me, but not me to her.
Anyhow. My mother was great about that stuff. It’s the rest of my family and people at different churches I’ve tried going to who don’t believe in talking about your problems or feelings. You’re supposed to just pray it all away, or go work at a soup kitchen
(And yes, I have volunteered several times at different charities, and no, it didn’t make me feel better.)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Oh. An “I honestly thought Donald Duck was one of America’s Presidents, I swear to God” wouldn’t work here?
I’m new at this 🙂
roebuck wrote:
Just playing. That’s all.
@ Gram3:
I get it now, The topic is theological insults. This must be a variation of a Katherine von Bora insult. Not as caustic as her husband’s but the peasants can eat the pudding. You will have “heavenly cream puffs”!
@ Lydia:
Nick said that was the recipe, be fruitful, go and subdue it. So I fruitfully subdued it with some sugar, butter, and peaches. Nick’s ingredients are basically what you would use for cream puffs, which I love, love, love. The carnality is about the beef. Desserts keep me sweet. 🙂
Gram3 wrote:
I love beef. I love cream puffs. I love Gram3. Where is Nick? He might have weighed in on this disquisition… 🙂
Beakerj wrote:
LOL. I stand corrected. Thank you for helping me design the proper British menu. I live in by the ocean in a warm climate. We eat salads! Lots of salads.
I will compromise: I will put cooked broccoli & peas in the salad! Parsnips? I only eat them every five years or so. Roast potatoes. OK. I will do it *your* way.
No, did you have anything in mind for dessert?
^Correction: “Now”
Gram3 wrote:
I distinctly recall that Nick said nothing about the recipe. It was “God” who wrote. More importantly, Gram3, did you use an interlinear to get the *true* meaning?
Lydia wrote:
You should really get out more. In fact, I recommend that Gram3 and Gramp3 take you to Gram3’s favorite bakeries for a tasting tour to make up for the *lost years* of complete and total deprivation.
Typical brain suicide published on TGC.
And for those who might not be familiar with the history of rhetoric in the Western church, this is just old-fashioned fundamentalism in a neck-beard and trilby.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Bite me.
Velour wrote:
Correct response. But what Brad jokingly said is where we are headed. Our culture is becoming, has become, about nothing but commerce.
Velour wrote:
No need for an interlinear. I know what God meant to say.
Beakerj wrote:
I do make lovely trifles. Perhaps that would be an acceptable dessert.
1. Chocolate Trifle:
Chocolate cake torn into small pieces, lots of chocolate pudding (I used triple what the recipe calls for), whipped cream, raspberries.
2. Vanilla Trifle
Vanilla cake torn into small pieces (or a pound cake), vanilla pudding (triple the amount), whipped cream, and strawberries or raspberries (or both).
3. Tres Leches Trifle (ok, maybe I should say this for Mexican food night and not British food night)
3 kinds (tres) of milk (leches): regular milk, evaporated milk, and condensed milk
(I substitute 1 can of coconut milk for evaporated or condensed milk);
use the milks to make a large batch of vanilla pudding (I make three times the amount the recipe calls for); vanilla cake or pound cake torn in to small pieces, whipped cream, and strawberries (I sometimes omit the almonds on top for those who have nut allergies).
Please advise as to what would be a *proper* British dessert with the roast and Yorkshire Pudding.
Sincerely,
Velour, internet cousin to “Satin” (sic), daughter of “Stan” (sic)
^correction, again: “save” (Tres Leches)
refugee wrote:
No. Women. Included!
@ elastigirl:
It’s nondenomish. Smaller than it used to be, but larger than it ought to be.
Muff Potter wrote:
Drain the water off of the carrots. Melt some butter in ’em, then throw in a little ground ginger and a little bit of vanilla flavoring!
Nancy2 wrote:
Potter’s an odd-duck Yankee, and if that ain’t bad enough, he don’t like butter neither.
@ elastigirl:
No room. I guess just a figureof speech 🙂
When “a dangerous person” is described as someone who is knowledgeable but unteachable, the first thing that came to mind was a few pastors I’ve come across, especially the unteachable part.
@ theologian:
ah, good to hear.
(I personally love to understand people, and for people to understand me. it’s very satisfying, and productive. figures of speech and metaphors are great, as long as they bring clarity instead of opacity)
@ Jenny:
“It’s nondenomish. Smaller than it used to be, but larger than it ought to be.”
+++++++++++
jenny, if you’re still around, can you say the name of this nondenomishness? which church? it’s like measles, or worse — people need to know when it erupts, to protect themselves.
elastigirl wrote:
The church is within The Master’s Seminary alumni churches network, which has become denomination-like.