“It takes a huge amount of culture to normalize "crazy", and of course that's its main focus” ― Stefan Molyneux link
The latest Furtick/Elevation Church stuff is all over the Internet. The twitterverse is going nuts. So, we break into our Thursday day of rest to keep you up to date!
(Note: Sorry about the left justification. We are trying to fix it.)
Baptism Manipulation
Never let it be said that your blog queens do not keep y'all up to date. On November 8, 2013, we presented an excellent post by Dr James Duncan on how Elevation Church and their "visionary" leader (we'll get to that in a minute), Chairman Furtick, manipulates baptisms. Now, it seems like the Charlotte media is catching up to us. Stuart Watson of NBC Charlotte presented Dr Duncan's research in the following video.
In case you are buying the evil media won't let Steven talk, think again. Stuart Watson begged him to do so.
Pastor Steven said I have been unfair and this report in particular would hurt Elevation Church members.
I asked Pastor Steven to consent to an unedited, on-camera interview.
I offered to let Elevation’s cameras record the interview. I offered to stream the interview in its entirety online. I offered to air a half-hour unedited interview on television. And WCNC held this report while waiting for Pastor Steven to respond.
But Chairman Furtick was too busy, probably indoctrinating the youth brigade into The Code (It's coming in a minute). The link to Vice Chairman Chunk's statement can be found at the end of this NBC post.
We have decided to decline these requests, for several reasons.
1. We simply do not have the time to devote to a seemingly endless number of interview and information requests—nor do we have an interest in always being in a position of responding to critics.
2. Based on the sources of much of Mr. Watson’s information and his past reporting on Elevation Church, we do not believe him and WCNC-TV to be objective in their reporting.
3. We are confident that those who attend Elevation Church know and understand our mission and vision for reaching people for Jesus Christ. As attendees, they are provided, through weekly teachings, biblical context for everything we do and practice, such as baptism, giving, serving and inviting friends to church.
4. Much of the information we have provided WCNC-TV in the past—such as how our pastor’s book sales are handled—has still not been accurately or fairly represented in on-air reporting, suggesting to us we have already wasted considerable time responding to requests for information.
I would imagine that he gets lots and lots of requests from lots and lots of critics……
Steven Furtick now has a show on TBN.
Does this really need any commentary?
The Grand Finale: The Code Indoctrination
This one is for our devoted reader, HUG. Break out those "Chairman" quotes.
First, here is a link to The Code that Elevators live by. Two of Dee's particular favorites are:
1. WE ACT IN AUDACIOUS FAITH
8. WE ARE RUTH’S CHRIS, NOT GOLDEN CORRAL (ed. This is NOT a joke)
Google "synonyms for audacious" and this is what comes up as the first hit.
adjective
*1.
showing a willingness to take surprisingly bold risks.
synonyms: bold, daring, fearless, intrepid, brave, courageous, valiant, heroic,plucky; daredevil, devil-may-care, reckless, *madcap; venturesome,mettlesome; informal gutsy, gutty, spunky, ballsy, skookum;
2.
showing an impudent lack of respect.synonyms: impudent, impertinent, insolent, presumptuous, cheeky, irreverent,discourteous, disrespectful, insubordinate, ill-mannered, unmannerly,rude, brazen, shameless, pert, defiant, cocky, bold (as brass); informal fresh, lippy, mouthy, saucy, sassy, nervy, ballsy;
Presenting that audacious Chairman Steven Furtick aka "The Visionary"
So, how do you make sure that little Elevators develop a "madcap" sort of faith? You invent a coloring book to teach them The Code. I want to thank Matthew Paul Turner for giving us permission to recreate an actual, colored upon page from that Ruth's Chris of coloring books, The Code.
It appears that Visionary Chairman Furtick is quite pleased with his representation in this coloring book. From Matthew Paul Turner's blog comes this totally audacious tweet.
I heartily recommend that you read Matthew Paul Turner's entire post since Dee is laughing so hard at the moment she can barely type.
Wow…just…wow.
😆 The coloring book. The coloring book. I can’t stop laughing.
If you visit Turner’s page, he has added a video on it of Furtick telling kids at his church about “the code.” If I were a parent, I’d want my kid hearing more about Jesus and less about a church’s “code.”
Aside from being ridiculous, the whole thing is kind of sad, too.
@ Daisy:
I couldn’t type I was laughing so hard. I really, really want to talk to a parent who thinks this is a good idea! This one I gotta hear!!!
is it just me…or is the visionary being presented with…a crotch bulge? I apologize for putting that phrase, but I cant think of a nice way to say it. And now I wonder if “The Visionary and The Governing Authorities” is a freudian way to refer to one’s…..self
Are you kidding me??? Audaciously awful.
Agree with Mother on the pants, just don’t look um, natural.
@ dee:
This is the epitome of creepiness. Sick. Sick. Sick.
Have you seen this video to go with the coloring book?
“Pastor Steve” hands out dice to the little ones so they can memorize “The Code” easier (not Scripture).
Thought this video might make a nice addition to your article…
http://player.vimeo.com/video/63566594
Oh yes, and remember “The Elephant Room”?
All the cult leaders hanging out and strutting their stuff?
http://vimeo.com/35812657
I think I need some PeptoBismol right now. :&
Mother wrote:
I am glad it isn’t just me…that’s where I said..WOW! Pastor, with sex appeal? Man…
Just read this on my Facebook feed (by the Christian Post):
Elevation Church 'Emotionally Manipulating' Thousands Into Spontaneous Baptists, Say Critics
I for one am not laughing. Replace Steven Furtick with Chairman Mao and it becomes significantly less amusing.
Or Jim Jones, one of the two.
Mother wrote:
Big house, big church, big salary, big ego and you are surprised by the picture? Thank you for making me laugh.
Hester wrote:
You got my reference.
Why is the symbol (on “Da Code”) for faith a bomb?
Also, I think codes #1 and #6 conflict with each other.
srs wrote:
If you think about it, there are a lot of conflicts at Elevation Church. It is a circus over there.
HUG: Where are you?????
Calling all Elevator Parents:
We would love to know why you think this coloring book is uplifting…….. waiting……
Eagle sent me a heads-up on this a day or two ago. (Including North Korean propaganda painting with Furtick’s face Photoshopped over that of Comrade Dear Leader.)
“WE ARE UNITED UNDER THE VISIONARY”
“ELEVATION CHURCH IS BUILT ON THE VISION GOD GAVE PASTOR STEVEN”
“WE WILL PROTECT OUR UNITY BY SUPPORTING HIS VISION”
You know, that does sound like something out of North Korea…
Or maybe “Can you say CULT?”
Coloring book for Furtickjugend? Gotta train/condition them early; didn’t Adolf Hitler say “Give me your children and I will make them Mine; you will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”?
And I don’t know what sort of Vision “Pastor Steven” has, except maybe how he was able to con his congregation into paying for a 16,000 sq ft mansion on an eight-acre estate in the ritziest part of town (and since the church technically owns it — ain’t a chain of holding companies and DBAs wonderful? — Pastor Steven(TM) never has to pay property taxes on it; nice racket).
The color page picture is crooked.
It isn’t square.
It kind of reminds me of the old Batman TV series. Often the scenes of the crooks were, crooked.
Just saying.
dee wrote:
Shouldn’t you be saying that about Scooby-Doo?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Thank heavens you’ve arrived. I can go to sleep knowing that the assessment of the situation is in good hands!!
All hail the Visionary Hipster Kim Jong Steve and all that jazz.
Deb wrote:
Oh yeah, the one about using Shills for the Altar Calls & Baptisms.
Mao + P.T. Barnum = Steve Furtick
Lin wrote:
Well, my old D&D Dungeonmaster used to say “Most Cults are started so the cult leader can (1) get rich; (2) get laid; or (3) both.”
Looks like Pastor Steven(TM) already has #1 nailed down (see his 16000 sq ft parsonage) and is going for #2. “ME BIG STUD!”
“The Code”?
Hmmm. I always thought that was the Ten Commandments. Silly me.
It’s funny yet so seriously messed up. This illustrates the cult cultures that allow abuse to flourish…
new post today: Culture of Abuse: victims blamed, perpetrators protected, voices silenced http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/02/culture-of-abuse-victims-blamed.html
I used to have nightmares in which Langworthy would show up at my church in Houston, and I’d try to speak out about what I knew, yet no sound would come out. I don’t have that nightmare any more, since I broke my silence about the culture of abuse I experienced at Prestonwood Baptist Church. I know now what to call it.
My parents have said repeatedly that they never want to see me again. A few months ago, my dad left a message at our home stating that “Amy’s hurt too many people for too long.” I’m going on the offensive.” The light of truth and knowledge is our greatest tool to protect kids. Share it. Speak it. Know you are not alone. Though the pain is awful, healing comes from rising up and shining the light of truth.
Cirque du Elevation
dee wrote:
Dee —
How can any of the parents object to their children being assimilated in the Code culture, when they have assimilated to the same code?
I’m with Hester on this one — the are heading into dangerous, cult territory.
Can someone explain what number 8 of the code means/refers to? I have no idea what it’s meant to be going on about.
@ Daisy:
Isn’t it a propaganda exercise to condition the kids to accept Furtick’s authority and to have a false view of unity, e.g., unity is praising Furtick and the church no matter what it says and does? My screen reader doesn’t describe pictures, I just know they’re there, so I could be missing a lot. Still, I share the opinion of the posters here that say the emphasis should be on Jesus, not on the church. I wonder if parents are willing to accept this kind of teaching for their children what is going on behind closed doors that the average person watching on Tbn doesn’t know about.
It’s not just propoganda, it’s merchandise. Kim Jong Il via Disney. I’m just saying. Be the first kid on your block to collect them all.
Criticising the man-centered approach here may be legitimate, but some of the comments above seemed to me to be below the belt.
I don’t get the “learning” fish skeleton. “Eat the fish, leave the bones.”
Huh? I like poetry and all, but Dylan Thomas is as far as I’ll go for cryptic references.
@ Amy Smith:
Amy, it’s great that you spoke up. At least it gives others a chance to be warned. I can’t understand your parents, but hope they are able to one day grasp the big picture before it’s too late.
E.G. wrote:
Eat the cherries, leave the pits?
Drink the Kool-Aid, leave your mind?
4. WE ARE UNITED UNDER ONE VISION
“Elevation is built on the vision God gave Pastor Steven. We will aggressively defend our unity and that vision.”
I wonder what he means by “aggressively”? Scary!
To “aggressively defend unity” seems counterintuitive.
@ Katie:
Absolutely .. every time I have read of unity in Scripture it has been linked to love and fellowship among Christians, not aggressiveness. I don’t like the sound of that either.
The pants get a mention here: https://www.facebook.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/posts/144051609074136
And an informal critique of “The Code” – helpful for non-USians who have no idea who/what Ruth Chris is or Golden Corral… https://www.facebook.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/posts/172361042885670
Maybe it’s just because I taught high school for thirty years, and couldn’t trust anything anyone was telling me….are the people in the pews so blind they can’t see what is going on?
I mean, a coloring book with Jesus or Moses or Daniel or maybe even Job ( okay, Job was a stretch) but a coloring book with the preacher as a character….I am like the people above….all I could think of was the Hitler Youth….
JeffT wrote:
Circus act for sure……making lots of bucks too.
Amy Smith wrote:
Amy, I’m so sorry to hear that your parents side with the guilty and blame the innocent. Jesus used whips. Old Testament prophets used swords. There’s a time and place to act when the defenseless are getting mowed down. Keep up the good work. You are raising awareness that is much needed. Keep hurting those who need to be hurt! And bringing comfort to those who are victims.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes,and the pride of life”, is certainly applicable to this alleged, church.
@ Amy Smith:
So sorry your parents are behaving so poorly. Hugs.
K.D. wrote:
I too find it hard to understand why people fawn over pastors/leaders, etc. and fall for such bologna. Still, I don’t want to become cynical or hard of heart in regards to spiritual blind spots. I most likely have my own.
JeffT wrote:
It really is too funny.
Amy Smith wrote:
That is just too sad for words. So sorry for what you have to endure to speak the truth.
Ken wrote:
I am assuming this is clever repartee and therefore am having a good laugh. If this was serious, feel free to slap me upside the head.
Bridget wrote:
What surprises me is parents who probably posted this piece of art on their refrigerator door, never realizing how bizarre it is. I give props to the parent who released this picture. Someone has some common sense out there in little Elevator land.
Anon wrote:
So true.
Katie wrote:
I hadn’t thought of that. Hmmm, maybe we should analyze the full Code.
@ Amy Smith:
My heart breaks for you because your parents are spiritually impaired. May God have mercy on them.
interesting that Jack Graham oversees how much Steven Furtick is paid. That speaks VOLUMES.
http://m.christianpost.com/news/who-are-the-megachurch-leaders-who-decide-elevation-church-pastor-steven-furticks-secret-salary-and-influence-his-ministry–107741/
Thank you all for your kind words. The support and encouragement God has provided through you gives me hope and strength when the sadness overwhelms.
Haitch wrote:
Golden Corral is a buffet style restaurant which in Dee’s plebeian opinion makes decent fried chicken and great yeast rolls-all guaranteed to be very bad for you. They recently started giving customers cotton candy on the way out the door which has endeared them to me. I have a secret cotton candy addiction.
Ruth’s Chris is a very expensive steak house which only serves prime cuts of beef. My European friends who visit us seem to like it very much.
Ken wrote:
Ken, when so-called ‘Christian’ leaders go so far off the rails, making themselves the focus of their ‘gospel’, rational theological arguments no longer have any effect on those who may be attracted to it. It’s getting into cult territory and the only thing that seems to be effective is a healthy dose of mock and ridicule to point out how crazy it is.
@ Amy Smith:
You have many friend who get you, Amy. Your father will regret this one day. In the end, your friends aren’t standing around your bedside and the mega pastors don’t care about you but will hand you some forms to sign over your assets to the church. It is your family who should be there. It is going to be a lonely transition unless he shapes up and gets right with you.
dee wrote:
That was the intended effect, though I did wonder if someone would weigh in first with a thesis on my attitude problem (or whatever) before twigging what I was really getting at.
For such rudery you should all be made to learn The Code off by heart. 🙂
It’s OK, I’ll see myself out ….
Is it just me or is their a BIG lack of Jesus in “The Code”?
Haitch wrote:
The mention of tight pants reminded me of this video of Will Farrell and Jimmy Fallon fighting over their tight pants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv7Ts4v5_Bs
nmgirl wrote:
The BibleThe CodeThe Ten CommandmentsThe CodeGod’sPastor Steve’s VisionKatie wrote:
Citizen Robespierre, Comrade Pol Pot, and Mullah Omar would understand. They “aggressively defended/established their Unity and Vision”.
P.S. Wasn’t the name of Antichrist’s One World New Order(TM) in the old Thief in the Night movies something similar to “UNITY”?
Victorious wrote:
Don’t forget shoving a cucumber down into the crotch of those Tight Pants for a codpiece.
Haitch wrote:
And here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpWOvK-mz7U
“If Jesus didn’t teach us to blindly trust the teachers, He certainly did not want blind loyalty given to them. Jesus never taught that men must have loyalty to His messengers because He knew that there would be wolves in His flock too. Jesus wanted loyalty to the teachings of God that were passed down through Moses. Jesus knew that teaching trust and loyalty to teachers would be dangerous because eventually there would be false teachers.”
-Mary Alice Chrnalogar, “Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse,” Chapter 3, “Authority Unlimited,” page 31.
E.G. wrote:
“What if there’s no fish, only bones?”
Tip: Any time someone tells you “eat the meat, leave the bones” they’re usually trying to unload a bag of bones on you.
K.D. wrote:
Nein. FURTICKJUGEND.
As another Cult Leader (a certain A.Hitler) put it, “Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
@ Deb:
Thank you Deb. I think Jack is the older, less cool, non-hipster version of Visionary Steven…
The word about a year ago from a friend who heard of some inside talk among the executive staff of Prestonwood was that I’m the crazy, unstable one and my dad is the good, normal guy.
DEE!!! Did you see the photoshop picture of Steven Furtick making the rounds on Facebook? I emailed it to you on Wednesday…it’s the one HUG is referencing. You were cc’d on that email. That picture would be GREAT for this post! 😀
Follow the money. Believe me, someone will and the jig will be up. But, In the meantime, God only knows how many folks will be hurt
I have in the past said that what happens at Elevation Church, including the “spontaneous applause” after the recent flap over his house, is anything but spontaneous. It is all orchestrated and well planned for cameras and attendees.
My guess, though, is that Billy Graham employed some of the same tactics. I don’t know that for sure.
“Pastors like myself have spent large amounts of time over the last fifteen years picking up the pieces of broken lives that resulted from distortion of truth by extreme teachings and destructive applications on discipleship, authority, and shepherding.
Victims of this movement are usually born-again Christians and are fundamentalist and evangelical in their orientation. The errors are covered in many different terms like delegated authority, covering, unquestioned submission, covenant, commitment to a fellowship, etc…. Terms change from time to time. Submission may be called “commitment,” “covenant relationship” or “divine order” in church government. Many times terms aren’t used at all; it is the actions that tell you what is going on.”
-Gilbert Trusty, “Recovering From Abusive Authority” (Conference Evangelical Ministries to New Religions in Philadelphia, PA, Sept. 14, 1994).
As found in “Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse,” by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, pages 23.
Clay Crouch wrote:
That is a code that TWW lives by.
TW wrote:
I wish I could cross it off to findamentalism. I know far too many “born agains” who think Visionary Chairman Furtick is the bee’s knees.
@ dee:
And that is why you usually get to the bottom of it. Amen.
@ nmgirl:
You are spot on!
Amy Smith wrote:
It is always the “crazy” ones who seem to change the world. They don’t by the “safe” solutions. If you are crazy then I want to be just as crazy as you.
@ dee:
For example, I have lots of questions about money and the naturopath who is Driscoll’s buddy. Who is investing in the so-called vaccines? Whenever threats are used, it is usually tied to money. See The Godfather for examples.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I knew I could rely upon you to give breadth, depth, and pants to this discussion.
Amy Smith wrote:
I had the “unstable” charge thrown at me before, too. It’s all just BS. I wish I’d had the presence of mind at the time to inquire where my homeschooled, not college educated, former minister had acquired his psychology degree.
Amy, that was just pure insult. The staff at Prestonwood aren’t even behaving like Christians, and have no business in church leadership. In fact, they continue to behave like people who are guilty and hiding something. Wonder why? 😉
dee wrote:
Just a technical test.
@ Eagle:
I guess we are not the only ones who clearly saw the Visionary garbage for what i is. I just tweeted this video and suggested that Chairman Steve invent a dance for his Elevators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp1OblQdNwg
@ dee:
We’ll be the crazy ladies with the fabulous shoes. Come see me in Big D and we’ll shop our crazy big hearts out.
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
Test????? I hate tests……
What turns seemingly discerning people into rabid cheerleaders for the self-appointed man-o-gawd and his “vision”? new post from New BBC Open Forum
Grooming Young Cult Members http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com/2014/02/grooming-young-cult-members.html
Mark wrote:
Party Commissar for Spontaneous People’s Demonstrations.
Nope. This isn’t creepy at all:
Yo! This week we’re back talking about “Elevation’s Code” (our defining, unique principles). We Are United Under The Visionary: Elevation is built on the vision God gave Pastor Steven. We will aggressively defend our unity and his vision. http://elevationworship.com/leadership/our-code-united-under-the-visionary/#sthash.VuQNNg0v.dpuf
@ Amy Smith:
Well, it’s obvious who’s being Elevated at Elevation. (Hint: not Jesus)
Every time I hear someone talking about receiving a special “vision”, I can’t help but think of the movie Addams Family Values, and the camp counselor’s vision of the Thanksgiving play. http://youtu.be/G2BCoZuM1J4 Too many movies during childhood has made me crazy.
I guess I need to read what the vision God gave to the pastor was. Hopefully it had something to do with following Jesus and loving people?!
Is it me or did this post remind anyone else of Warren Jeffs and his increasing control on his cult?
Okay, so I’m seriously NOT trying to start a run on conspiracy theories BUT the first thing I noticed in the coloring book picture was Steven’s hands. So I looked up the artist. I found one who says he/she is responsible for six of the drawings. Any of you who do follow ‘theories’ will have fun with this one. Just a warning….if you follow some of this person’s other art it could be triggering. badwhitney claims to be the artist, just google that and elevation coloring book.
@ Lin:
“bologna” is a sausage, usually sliced for lunch meat. “baloney” is what some people spew when the talk or write. The stuff referred to is not sausage, but it is closer to what comes out of the back end of the pig prior to slaughter.
As a Catholic priest, it never ceases to amaze me how many protestants rebelled from what they felt was a domineering religious system led by an authoritarian Pope telling people how to think only to freely place themselves under much more tyrannical religious systems and much more authoritarian pastors telling them how to think and putting tyrannical systems of accountability in place.
I know that isn’t a completely accurate explanation of this complex phenomenon but its my two cents.
Former CLC’er wrote:
I think we can all see this guy, Steven Furtick, isn’t the man of God he wants people in his church to believe he is.
Having been involved with SGM and a member of CJ Mahaney’s church, I’m of the opinion that these guys must develop an alter-ego, and get taken in by it at some point, where they actually end up believing in it themselves as though it were all true.
CJ Mahaney wanted everyone to believe he was a qualified spiritual leader whom God bestowed apostolic authority upon to plant churches, determine their system of belief, and control people’s minds all because because God has especially chosen him to do so. He employed others who all worked to beef up his image and who told the members how authentic he was, and his family did the same. There was no place like home where his amazing leadership skills were on full display, including things like inspecting for modesty all the clothing his wife and daughters shopped for and were allowed to wear. The carefully crafted image that CJ created, and that others helped to image, was that he was a pastor of pastors, a man above all men, a husband better than all husbands, a father of fathers, and a leader of leaders bar none. So convinced was he of his own greatness that he ended up talking publicly about his legacy, and glady accepted (and demanded) to be praised as though it were completely appropriate for everyone to honor more than anyone else.
At what point he developed an alter-ego I can’t say, but I’m guessing around the time he wanted to be called “Charles” instead of “CJ.” Charles was the ruthless leader who was greedy for power and control, who enjoyed manipulating people and getting what he wanted. CJ was the funny guy who liked to entertain people on stage, who by his goofiness and charm provided an effective smoke screen for Charles to hide his true intentions behind.
Im not personally familiar with Steven Furtick, but it appears the same kind of thing is going on. Furtick wants everyone to believe in him, as though he’s an amazing guy who deserves all the money and attention he’s been getting. He’s a visionary that everyone needs to support, obey and gather around because God has called him to lead. What might his alter ego be? I’m guessing it’s “Pastor” which is what he likes to be referred to. It’s not “one of your pastors” or “a pastor.” No, Steven Furtick is PASTOR in the way that Jesus isn’t “one of your lords” or “a lord,” He’s LORD.
None of this is being sustained by God because it’s not built on the solid foundation of truth, although that is what guys like Furtick and Mahaney work so hard to get you to believe. That what they are telling you to believe is all based upon “the bible” therefore it must be true, and you will be pleasing God if you submit yourself to what they tell you to do. Because that’s what being a “good Christian” means. You must follow them in order to be a disciple.
So, my guess is that it won’t be long before more and more of the cracks in the Furtick foundation will continue to be exposed, just as we saw the cracks exposed in Mahaney’s foundation. It simply isn’t sustainable as it stands. Sooner or later the effects of the waves washing up on the beach will wear down the walls of the castle and everyone will see that it was built on sand.
And then where will Steven Furtick be? Where will his legacy wind up? Probably similar to that of CJ Mahaney’s. Stuck somewhere licking his wounds, feeling betrayed, blaming everyone else for what went wrong but too deceived within himself to see the light.
@ Fr. Bryan:
You have a very good point, which is why I believe the church is ripe for a new Reformation.
An Attorney wrote:
…………….
No argument from me on that analysis. Amazing though, how much money can be made, from the back end of a pig.
Fr. Bryan wrote:
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner….
When I was a kid, we went from a strong Priesthood of the Believer being taught when I was a kid through college, to a change I saw in seminary in the 1980s. The “new” professors and a growing number of seminarians who thought that the average person in the pew was not the real leader in the denomination. It is “we” the the lead and senior pastors…..and the people in the pew are just “sheep.” Dumb and a sort of income…
We are worse off in many cases than the average person before the Reformation…..and so many people have not got a clue…
DEE check your email. I have news for you!
Victorious wrote:
I can’t get the coloring book Furtick’s tight pants out of my head.
All I can think of is the airport scene in “This Is Spinal Tap” where bassist Derek Smalls pulls the cucumber wrapped in tinfoil out of his pants at the security screening! 🙂 Tragically, there is no decent clip of this classic scene on You Tube.
Fr. Bryan wrote:
The irony of it all! Although I think many of these celebrity preachers are so ignorant of religious history that the irny is lost on them.
Not to mention the fact that the Roman Catholic Church today is, despite its hierarchical structure, is more tolerant of diverse opinions in many areas (abortion and homosexuality being among the most least tolerated) than these celebrity preachers and, so far as I’ve observed, rarely excommunicates anyone – most excommunications by the Catholic church seem to become public and sometimes reversed when reasonable heads prevail (witness the case of Margaret McBride). No such tolerance exists in the world of celebrity preachers.
Fr. Bryan wrote:
It takes a little time…it’s a process. Give them time and with the help of those who are exposing the evils of authoritarian leaders, hopefully they’ll “get it.”
I’m breathlessly awaiting Perry Noble, Benny Hinn, and Mark Driscoll coloring books.
In his pre-pastor life, Steve Furtick was an Amway salesman. If he wasn’t, he should have been. How to get millions of people to buy into absolutely nothing. Code #1 and #6 contradict each other, the code for “we want your seat” sounds like Steve is running an Amway convention, not a church. What boggles me is how these guys find enough dumb people with incomes to follow them. I could see dumb masses, but I would assume they are younger without much earning power. I am baffled how someone who is smart enough to earn a pay check that Furtick would target would actually be dumb enough to not notice the code is more Amway than Christian.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
When I was a teen, my grandmother handed me a newspaper clipping that involved a woman tricking another woman into marrying her.
I asked my grandmother how that was possible (wouldn’t the second woman realize her husband was not a male?), and she kept pointing to the clipping to encourage me to read it further, which mentioned, among other things, rolled up newspaper down the pants.
@ Daisy:
lol hilarious!
What could you see as one of the pages in a Mark Driscoll coloring book, I wonder?
@ Katie:
Never mind the Bible teaches that all prophecies need to be tested by other prophets. It’s just Amway guy’s vision and nothing else.
That video to the Elevation kids is indeed creepy.
@ 1:15 of the video:
Paula Rice wrote:
I believe Driscoll has all the SS curriculum written in house so who knows what he is teaching in his fiefdom. It’s scary to think about what is being implanted in young minds.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
My examples are quite as spot on, but, one nickname for Capt Mal Reynolds (from the Firefly show) was “Captain Tight Pants.”
Then there was the passing mention of tight pants in
Freeway Of Love – Aretha Franklin
Lyrics. Knew you’d be a vision in white/ How’d you get your pants so tight?
A few years ago, when the movie “Superman Returns” was released, I read a behind the scenes report of it, and the costume designers were charged with designing Superman’s (actor Brandon Routh’s) costume in such a way to downplay (their term) “his package.” 😆 I guess Steve Furtick and the Elevation crowd don’t share the same concerns. 🙂
“1. We Act in Audacious Faith
In order to dominate a city with the gospel of Jesus, we can’t think small. We will set impossible goals, take bold steps of faith and watch God move” The Code
Audacity speaks of pride, and attention-grabbing.
“He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk HUMBLY with your God?” ~ Micah 6:8 (caps are mine)
“4. We Are United Under One Vision
Elevation is built on the vision God gave Pastor Steven. We will aggressively defend our unity and that vision.” The Code
If Pastor Steven’s vision doesn’t look or sound like anything Jesus taught, maybe we should pass on it.
[Jesus said:] “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” ~ Matthew 22:36-40
“7. We Dress For The Wedding
We will continually increase our capacity by structuring for where we want to go, not where we are. We will remain on the edge of our momentum by overreacting to harness strategic momentum initiatives.” The Code
Do the people who wrote this even know what it means? This sounds like it was lifted from the worst strategic planning seminar ever.
“Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.” ~ James 1:27
“9. We Are All About The Numbers
Tracking metrics measures effectiveness. We unapologetically set goals and measure progress through all available quantitative means.” The Code
“So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.” Acts 9:31
“12. We Will Not Take This for Granted
What we are experiencing is not normal. This is the highest calling, and we will remain grateful for God’s hand of favor.” The Code
Be careful about claiming God’s favor.
[Jesus said:] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” ~ Matthew 7:21-23
Over 70 years ago Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote in Life Together that “God hates visionary dreamers.” It is almost as if the German theologian anticipated our day. When the dreamers’ dreams do not came to pass, the visionaries blame for their people for not getting with the program. Life together is impossible. It is bad enough at Elevation, but the damage from dreaming Steven Furtick wannebes is incalculable.
Paula Rice wrote:
It would either be very naughty, or there would be a “boy” version where boys would color pictures of Jesus punching people in the face, and a “girls” version where girls could color in pictures of Grace bringing Mark his dinner.
Paula Rice wrote:
The first picture that popped into my mind was the peasant princess series, more of an adult coloring book I would say. I think his artist might have let Mark color it himself. The pink fawn’s faces and eyes represent a certain couple of body parts and I ‘got it’ about the red feet. If you listen to his teaching you’ll ‘get it’ too.
dee wrote:
To the mattresses ! He/she is off with the fishes ! FWIW, at the bottom of my storage locker contact the manager wrote “no horses heads”. I love me a bit of “Godfather” lexicon fellowship…
I knew you would love the colouring book Dee. I saw it on Matthew Paul Turner & just laughed so hard. It is utterly ridiculous. Do you think they do Pastor Furtick dolls for the babies to cuddle? Can you even imagine how much fun we could have with that?
I am so happy I’m not the only one who notice Pastor Furtick apparently dresses both to the right & the left…Does no-one in that circus have any critical reasoning skills left?
I’m also bemused by the Code, The seeming reason they need one: God is doing something unusual (can’t remember the exact wording) there….subtext, no-one can criticise this as it’s NEW & therefore doesn’t go by the rules?
If it is true that God has given Steve a vision, then you can’t argue with it – why, you might even be found to be opposing God!
I don’t like this kind of talk anyway, as it implies certain individuals are ‘hearing’ from God in some kind of extra biblical revelation that is authorititive.
I have less of a problem if someone says they believe God has given them a vision or burden etc for something. Apart from avoiding the pitfall of thinking of something I want and then claiming divine endorsement of it to stifle any opposition, this also leaves room for the Body to witness and confirm that said vision or direction is right. What does the Body think? It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and us is somewhat different from ‘God told me’.
A bit more body ministry would kill off the need to have an ordained Reverend MDiv stand between me (and the other ‘ordinary’ members) and God.
Fr. Bryan wrote:
You are not alone Fr. Bryan. I too have wondered about the mechanism which causes otherwise reasonable folks to put themselves under any religious system which in extreme forms will strip them of their very humanity.
@ Fr. Bryan:
My exact thoughts a few days ago (and I’m not even Catholic). Many of these churches make ironclad laws about things the Pope wouldn’t find important enough to even mention.
Also, can I just say how wrong it is that Furtick/whoever designed the coloring book used Romans 13 to back up their view here? Romans 13 is about civil authorities, as is made obvious later when Paul says they “bear the sword” and tells people to pay their taxes. So in what sense does
ChairmanPastor Steven “bear the sword”? And are we supposed to “pay taxes” to Pastor Steven? Is that what the tithe is now? Our “taxes” to Elevation Church?Haitch wrote:
Oh, man, read a comment in this comment stream that was bad, but maybe not too far off the mark:
“The s__t has to spew from his mouth because his pants are so tight his a__ is clenched shut.”
@ Beakerj:
. . . unusual . . . special . . . unique . . . blessed . . . are the coded ‘Code’ words used by these outstanding men of god.
@ Fr. Bryan:
Hi Fr. Bryan
Are we not a crazy people? Thank you for your great comment.
@ Jenny:
Well done.
In other news, it has emerged that “During the 2008 financial crisis, the US Federal Reserve struggled to grasp the scope of the problem and how to adequately respond”.
At the same time, ground-breaking research published today has found evidence that ducks float.
@ Fr. Bryan:
A very good point, and a profitable discussion to be had thereon too. I will have to join it properly tomorrow, though, as it’s midnight here in Blighty and time for bed…
@ Hester:
It appears to be an emphasis on unquestioning obedience to authority .. Furtick’s authority, and the quote of Romans 13 is definitely out of context. It’s sad that this is how little kids are being indoctrinated.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I am so glad that Fr Bryan is here! Sleep well!
@ Hester:
I agree with both you and Fr. Brian 2000 percent and say yes, a million times yes! What these churches/movements are doing is a million times worse than the Popes, both in the extent of the authoritarianism and harsh church discipline practiced and the burdens they place on members of their churches. Christian domestic discipline, for example, or no divorce, no matter what, or obeying a pastor the way a child would a parent, there is something creepy and really disfunctional about all that, and the Popes even in the Middle Ages didn’t impose things to that extent. I am a Protestant and it saddens me just how burdensome being a Christian has become for many who claim to hold uncompromisingly to the doctrines of the Reformation.
@ Jenny:
That was so good! And let’s not forget GENEROSITY. I noticed his wife routinely emphasizes GIVING on her blog, in between her fashion tips and posts exalting her husband.
So often is ‘tithing’ and ‘giving’ mentioned by the Furtick’s that not only do you catch on they’re money hungry, but also that they deserve to live luxuriously since they’re, apparently, more elevated than anyone else!
@ Fr. Bryan:
I’d take a Pope Francis over a Pastor Steven Furtick any day of the week.
But I’m an Anglican who dips her toes into the Tiber occasionally, so I’m biased.
“If one has the answers to all the questions – that is the proof that God is not with him. It means that he is a false prophet using religion for himself. The great leaders of the people of God, like Moses, have always left room for doubt. You must leave room for the Lord, not for our certainties; we must be humble.”
~ Pope Francis
Paula wrote:
Yeah, looks like they’re pretty proud of their generosity.
[Jesus said:] “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” ~ Matthew 6:1-4
Jenny wrote:
So would I, and I’m a Methodist now, or soon will be officially. Pope Francis and definitely Pope John Paul II are both ones I’d take over Furtick any day too. The contrast couldn’t be more obvious; whereas Pope Francis calls people to a life of humility, Furtick just insists that his followers accept his new visions as truth and unquestioningly obey his authority, a striking difference. Good that an Anglican and a Methodist can agree though (grin.)
Hester wrote:
How else can Pastor Steven afford that 16000 sq ft mansion on the eight-acre estate in the ritziest part of town (and the number of servants needed to run and maintain it)?
Val wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rTPXoE8pyI
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
That’s appalling, and it’s worse that people are guilted into tithing to pay for that mansion.
@ dee:
Oh, indeed we are a crazy people, Lol! and it’s great to be here.
@ Muff Potter:
I couldn’t have said it better. I’ve wondered about that too, and Jesus came to free us from being under such an oppressive system.
@ Jenny:
Ha! Perfect. I can see you’d be dangerous in a sword fight. Touché!
@ HUG:
My thought exactly.
Seriously, I think this coloring book is the worst thing I have yet seen emerge from a megachurch. There’s been a lot of dumb crap but unless I’m forgetting something, I think this takes the cake for most overtly propagandistic and authoritarian.
@ Fr. Bryan:
I’d take a Pope Francis over a Pastor Steven Furtick any day of the week.
But I’m an Anglican who dips her toes into the Tiber occasionally, so I’m biased.
“If one has the answers to all the questions – that is the proof that God is not with him. It means that he is a false prophet using religion for himself. The great leaders of the people of God, like Moses, have always left room for doubt. You must leave room for the Lord, not for our certainties; we must be humble.”
~ Pope Francis
So would I, and I’m a Methodist now, or soon will be officially. Pope Francis and definitely Pope John Paul II are both ones I’d take over Furtick any day too. The contrast couldn’t be more obvious; whereas Pope Francis calls people to a life of humility, Furtick just insists that his followers accept his new visions as truth and unquestioningly obey his authority, a striking difference. Good that an Anglican and a Methodist can agree though (grin.)
agreed, there sure is a stark stark difference….
@ Paula:
Ah, but I know something you do not. I … am not left-handed. 😉
@ Paula:
Hey, I’m totally blind, I’d really be dangerous in a sword fight! (Laughing at myself a lot here) That’s why I wouldn’t get in a sword fight.
@ Jenny:
Ha! Well that’s nothing. I’ve spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane! 😀
@ andrea:
Lol andrea. I just noticed if you take the S off and put it at the end of Sword, you get Words. And as I’ve heard said, “the pen is mightier than the sword,” so fight on!
Anyone notice the coloring book page given to the kids twists scripture to associate “The Visionary” with “governing authorities?” The context of Romans 13 makes it clear that 13:1 about secular governing authorities, not church leadership. I guess at that age The Visionary doesn’t want any “young reeds” broken by the weight of the words (bonus Out of the Grey reference)…
Father, my thoughts exactly. No pope would ever claim for himself such absolute power over individual vBulletin consciences. The mind boggles.
Fr. Bryan wrote:
I don’t know where “vbulletin” came from. Sometimes my phone has a mind of its own. 😮
@ Catholic Homeschooler:
@ Paula:
Lol! Paula, I like it, not too bad for a pacifist either, I definitely will keep fighting!
@ Catholic Homeschooler:
I think you do extremely well in summing it up, that’s what’s going on, and when you’re in it you don’t see it, kind of like the frog in the gradually boiling water analogy.
It’s good that the mind boggles, and healthy too, because our consciences and our normal emotional sense of outrage are both functioning as God created them to function.
I wish you guys could see elevation from the inside. It’s not what the press is making it out to be. Elevation has left a mark on so many peoples lives and God is using this church to grow his kingdom all over the world.
1. We act in audacious faith –
God has done so many miraculous things in this ministry because of the faith that his people demonstrate and the biblical faith that pastor Steven has tought us to have. If you’re a sceptic, read his book “Sun Stand Still.” It’s all biblical. You can’t really refute it.
8. We are Ruth’s Chris not Golden Corral. –
we are all about our weekend worship experiences and fulfilling the vision of the church (so that people far from god will be raised to life in Christ). We don’t have a buffet of ministries to choose from. That’s all this code is saying.
The rest is here: http://elevationchurch.org/the-code
#4 was revised a few years ago because it didn’t sit right with Pastor because he knows this ministry isn’t about him. It’s about the vision.
Having been a part of this ministry for the past 7 years and personally knowing Pastor Steven and his family I could type all day in his defense. At the end of the day you really just need to take an objective look at the things God is doing through Elevation Church in the Charlotte community and all over the world.
Shoot. Just check us out live tonight at 5pm (EST) on elevationnetwork.com and 9:30, 11:30, and 5pm tomorrow.
Catholic Homeschooler wrote:
Ahem.
First let me chime in with the rest. I love Pope Francis. He’s just the breath of fresh air the Catholic church and the whole world needs.
But let me point out an ugly truth that everybody knows but still gets surprised at.
Power Corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This fact crosses denominational lines. It is true concerning Catholic/Protestant, government, and family dynamics.
Catholic Homeschooler, your quote is only partially correct. Let me make one small correction
“No pope TODAY would ever claim for himself such absolute power over individual consciences.”
They can’t because things aren’t as they were.
Because Popes in the past HAVE claimed that power.
Because Popes in the past have HAD absolute power.
As messy as things are, with so many denominations and all, I’m still glad that there was a Protestant Reformation, with all its imperfections.
It divided the power balance and created a checks and balance in the religious world. It made it so that people, if the observe corruption in their local gathering, they could go elsewhere. There isn’t one show in town.
Now, one man cannot have the absolute global power that the Popes of old had. It was not good for that Catholic church and led to all manner of corruption, the likes of which we don’t see today even with the pedophile scandals.
Today, I have great respect for the Catholic community and their present Pope.
Now we’ve got to get Christians of all stripes to stop giving this absolute, local, power to little popes, like Piper, Driscoll, Furtick. They are only men. Having the power that they have is destroying them, their branches of Protestantism, and the faith of thousands.
Got one in moderation.
It may need to be there.
@ Amy Smith:
I’d be proud to have you as my daughter.
@ Bill Kinnon:
Stand in line.
Maybe we could do a TWW colouring book? I have a feeling if each of us did a page we’d soon have a whole book full of pug pics, chocolate wrappers, trains, aphorisms in the style of Stalinist propaganda posters, haggi, recipes & knitting patterns. And obvs a picture of the Deebs on their golden thrones for the front cover.
@ Beakerj:
Oh, that is too funny, sounds like a plan!
Tom wrote:
I know that you love your pastor. In fact, Furtick is blessed to have many people who follow him so closely. I only hope he appreciates you and invites you to a dinner in his mansion sometime.
Unfortunately, it is quite easy to refute your pastor. Many thoughtful Christians, including academics, have been doing that for sometime. In the whirlwind of your organization and your devotion to your pasto,r it is sometimes hard to see through that to the basics. Lots of people attending church, hoopla and great music do not make a church “successful.” Look at the early church.
Heck, look at jesus-closely. Do you really thing your church and pastor resemble that? Could it be that you are celebrating an American Christianity with get rich pastors who produce works that self proclaim them to be a visionary.
Do you know what the problem is with someone who gets a vision (and them loses the paper he wrote it on), you can’t refute it. What if I were to tell you that I am visionary? Would you believe me? Why not? Is it because I don’t have a huge church and lots of very loud and expensive speakers? Maybe its because i don’t have a church that can buy up books and propel my standing on the NY Times bestseller list? Didn’t Jesus do that? What are your criteria.
Or how about picking out the really cool baptism stories? You know, some are worth being told more than others according to your baptism rules. Just like Jesus who picked all the best of the best stories, right?
If you get out of your bubble, you will see that many people around the world are deeply questioning what goes on at your church. I guess they must all be “haters,” right? Isn’t that what he says? And if the Visionary says it, it must be correct…. I have listened to your pastor and I think he has a serious problem.
Steve is not changing the world but he sure has changed his world, along with his buddies like “Chunks” for the better-biggest mansion in NC. Trust me, he is grateful for people like you.And he preaches something that is like a prosperity gospel. If we want it, if we can dream it, God is big enough to deliver, so ask, believe and step out in faith. Steve did, got you to give money and he got rich,really, really rich.
Here is a challenge: look at the list of the great people of God in Hebrews 11. All of them led lives of great pain and sorrow. They were the ones who were called great. Compare them to your pastor. See a difference?
@ Beakerj:
Visionaries always go on the front cover!!
B. K. Cobb wrote:
Visionary Chairman Steve must proclaim his absolute power so that the little guys won’t cross him. If they follow him and never question him, they too can dream big and God will bless them like he has blessed Steve.
How many people that attend that church hope they too can have a mansion if they just dream big enough?
@Paula Rice – I remember when C.J. went through that “Charles” phase. I never personally used that name to refer to him. It was ridiculous really.
A few years after that, I was speaking to my care group leader’s wife and told her that I thought people at CLC worship C.J. and that he has unresolved issues. Amazingly I didn’t get called on the carpet and get kicked out of the church!
Yikes, this seems more then a tad cultish. I mean, it’s almost right out of the handbook for recognizing cults. Shades of Scientology with the fixation on the leader.
@ Bill Kinnon:
So would I. My daughter is a very effective activist, working to help feed the poor, raising a 2 year old and expecting a second. Knows how to get things done in a wide variety of venues, including installing a ceiling fan with light fixture properly, organizing meetings including one involving the governor of a state, university presidents, etc. I think you and she would find a good deal in common, except that her parents support her regardless.
That last message from me was directed toward Amy Smith.
I’m not sure about Tom’s comment – we have a distinguished history of ex-Elevators poe-ing here.
Actually, that makes me wonder whether I’ve just invented a new collective noun:
A fleet of aircraft
A distinguished history of ex-Elevators
It would go well with this one I heard years ago:
An utmost confidence of sacked football managers (this might make more sense in the UK than in the US)
Tom wrote:
Tom, do you honestly think that those of us criticizing the Furtick coloring book, the Furtick mansion, and the Furtick Code (among other things) are mere simpletons who are being led astray by a “biased” press? That, were it not for the baddies in the media, we’d think all was well with Elevation Church?
Puh-leeze. I can think for myself thankyouverymuch. The coloring book, the mansion, and the Code speak volumes, even without the local press coverage.
Hellooooo, Elevators and the distinguished history of ex-Elevators!! I am not a hater— in fact, many think I’m downright neighborly! But, just a warning— there are MANY visionary religious leaders from days gone by whom I’ve never seen up here in heaven. They must have gone somewhere else! Just a little perspective from the great beyond.
Rafiki wrote:
B–But PASTOR STEVEN SAYS SO! VISION-CASTING SOUL PATCH AND ALL!
@ Fred Rogers:
So good to hear from you! Now you've got me singing in my head "Won't you be my neighbor?"
I don't doubt what you have shared from the great beyond…
@ Fred Rogers:
Fred-it is so good to hear from you. Will any of your other friends be paying us a visit? I wondered where the heck you were!!!!! Does God allow “Visionary” coloring books in heaven or is He vision enough?
Also, did you see that Matthew Paul Turner has been contacted by NBC Charlotte? Why do I think there is going to be a special on Chairman Steve’s new coloring book?
By the way, I am trying to get the Elevators to do the following dance in honor of Furtick instead of a standing ovation. I think it has play and will add to the “Disneyfication” of Elevation. What say you?
http://tinyurl.com/n25da6h
“‘Pastor’ is very humble.”
Yes. His new mansion is only just over 16,000 square feet,
which is 3,000 square feet less than Kenneth Copeland’s.
http://youtu.be/mJ9oBCLwwL0
(But Pastor’s mansion is only about 7,000 square feet bigger than
his Elephant Room buddy, James McDonald’s 9,000 square foot behemoth,
and acre per acre bigger than his other Elephant Room buddy, Mark
Driscoll’s gated estate.)
Will Paula White be buying “Pastor” a brand new, shiny black,
Bentley convertible for his birthday like she did for his
Elephant Room buddy, “Bishop” T.D. Jakes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsoPZ-SjBOs
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG, why are you hatin’ on the pants?! Surely the pants influence the vision-casting, not just the soul patch! 🙂
@ TedS.:
I have an idea. Wouldn’t it be interesting to put up a permanent page listing the names of the pastors and the size of mansion they live in? I know that you can get in trouble for posting addresses, etc. But simple descriptors would get around that. All we would have to do is have some sort of verifying info, either from other blog posts on other blogs or info that readers send us.
Then we could add to the page as we learn of others. Thoughts?
@ Rafiki:
@ Tom:
TWW has received info on Visionary Chairman Kim Jong Furtick since this blog started. There are lots of people in the Charlotte area who are not as enthralled as Brother Tom.
We held off posting until we could begin to confirm the reports. Sad thing about all of that is that what we have confirmed is even worse than the emails we got years ago. There are some great Christians in the city of Charlotte who saw through the nonsense many years ago. They are to be commended.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You need to add: requisite black designer T shirt, slightly pointy toe high end boots, and jeans that are tight in all the right places. He is a hipster, darn it.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
What does confidence used in this way mean in the UK? I love language differences.
@ andrea:
Thanks! Father Bryan was the one who summed it up so well.
Recently another blogger wrote about a fundy preacher who forbade his congregants to criticize or even question the pastor. All I could think of was Saint Catherine of Siena reading the pope the riot act because he’d abandoned Rome for Avignon, way back in the fourteenth century. Guess she ddidn’t get the memo.
@ Mara:
So many historical innacurcies…so little time.
The popes have never claimed absolute dictatorial power. No, not even the Borgia popes.
@ Catholic Homeschooler:
I am so glad that you are commenting here along with Fr. Bryan. I am truly excited to have you share with our readers your knowledge of Catholicism. Please feel free to get us up to snuff.
If you would even like to write a post for us in which you could explain to us the things that evangelical Protestants misunderstand about Catholicism, we would love to post your thoughts. Please contact me at dee@thewartburgwatch.com.
In the meantime, Fr.Bryan offered to help me with a few things as well. Here’s to tearing down that brick wall.
Catholic Homeschooler wrote:
I certainly agree. Popes tended to corrupt towards wealth and political power. The infamous “sinful” Popes don’t strike me as men who cared too much about what the people were up to in their daily lives. In fact, their sin was more spiritual neglect and indifference as opposed to tyrannical oppression, save instances of financial gain. At least that’s the way I see it when I look back over history (and I was educated in Medieval History at a secular University, if that adds any weight to my perspective).
That being said, I don’t think its helpful to compare pastors in one Church to another on this website. This is a site geared towards recognizing potentially abusive systems and even though we will probably never agree with the authors’ ecclesiology, Catholic priests can at least learn to be better stewards of the resources we have been given and to wield Church authority gracefully. (There is some degree of pressure to become more evangelical-like right now, and if we aren’t careful we will wind up bringing in some of the problems discussed here).
Plus, while we can look at the papacy for the last couple hundred years and look at how blessed we are (Seriously, our streak of good Popes starts way before John Paul II) there have been no shortage of pastors of local parishes who display much the narcissism and oppressive tendencies as the pastors in the evangelical/mega-Church world discussed here at WW.
dee wrote:
I too, but sadly it’s more of a sociological than a linguistic thing. Kind of a play on the fact that the board of a football club always used to express their “utmost confidence” in the manager a week before sacking him!
One of those jokes where you just had to be there… 🙁
The word “confidence” has a usage and a meaning associated with crime, as in a confidence or con game, where the perp gains the confidence of the victim as a part of the con.
And I think that many of the mega-pastors (keep in mind the only thing mega about a mega-church is the pastor’s remuneration) are in fact confidence men, scamming people by the thousands (the actual attendance range, as in kilo-people).
Fr. Bryan: “many protestants rebelled from what they felt was a domineering religious system led by an authoritarian Pope telling people how to think”
Catholic Home Schooler: “No pope would ever claim for himself such absolute power over individual consciences.”
@ Catholic Homeschooler:
@ Fr. Bryan:
Are we talking about the same thing?
Plus, I’ll be interested in knowing whatever “historical inaccuracies” you believe I’m guilty of.
dee wrote:
I would call my no-goodnik nephew Bill Rogers, but there are no long-distance calls in heaven. You can’t cash out-of-state checks here either. Coloring books are fine, but heaven is much smaller than you might think. There’s room for only ONE visionary leader and ONE vision! Big houses, big churches, or big visions just can’t fit. The 14 year-old kid who shot up the school prayer group in Paducah KY had boasted about planning “something really big.”
“Oh, wouldn’t the world be a different place,” I commented, “if he had said, ‘I’m going to do something really little tomorrow’?
Tom wrote:
God’s Kingdom (capital K), or Steven Furtick’s kingdom (small k)? Sorry, but biblically literate people don’t need media reports to help them figure this out.
That’s called Word-Faith/Prosperity Gospel. And yes, it’s refutable.
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:6-9
Are you committed only to the vision of Steven Furtick’s church or are you committed to the mission of the Church universal? What would you do if your pastor’s “vision” completely contradicted the teachings of Christ?
Then why is it still on the Elevation website – and in the coloring book?
Many people have looked objectively at Elevation Church – and have been greatly disturbed. No one needs to make up stuff against Steven Furtick’s teachings. The Word of God provides more than enough arguments to refute him.
[Jesus said:] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” ~ Matthew 7:21-23
Mara wrote:
Mara – the key word here was “felt.” I deliberately left open the question of whether or not it was actually oppressive and in what ways. The point is that the perception of most protestants is that it was oppressive and yet, some of them have joined Churches that are much more oppressive.
I think Catholic Homeschooler’s point was similar to the point I made a little over an hour ago: that Papal corruption has not been the same type of corruption as many of these mega pastors. As she put it, “No pope would ever claim for himself such absolute power over individual consciences.” Certainly, All Popes try to form consciences by proposing a way of life, but the rigid accountability structures we see in many Mega Churches haven’t been things that popes have involved themselves in. For example, (to my knowledge) no Pope has ever forced anyone to disclose their income. Furthermore, no Pope I know of has ever forced anyone to join an accountability group and publicly disclose their sins (confession is obviously an important part of practicing Catholicism but it is done anonymously and can be done in any parish with any priest, and the seal of confession is taken very seriously).
Wow, how did I wind up typing that much? Again, that’s not why I’m here. Again, I think it’d be best to stop comparing our Churches and continue to learn from stories of abuse which certainly have occurred in Catholicism as well as Mega Church Protestantism.
Steven Furtick at the Code Orange Revival:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsoPZ-SjBOs
.
Sorry, in my “Golden Corral” Lutheran church they call those “services.” If the only reason you’re going to church is to have an emotional experience, you’d be better off at a concert of some kind. At least at the rock concert you don’t have to swear allegiance to the performer ala this.
This makes me want to go Charlotte, get a take-out order from Golden Corral, and have someone take my picture in front of Elevation’s sign holding said Golden Corral bag. I’m in CT though so that would be a bit of a long drive just to annoy Steven Furtick. 😉
@ Anon:
What a pile of nonsense. “Every preacher that preaches today riff off of TD Jakes.”
Hester wrote:
I would be happy to join you. They make great fried chicken which is my weakness.
@ dee:
Also, very rich Visionary Furtick does not know how this example condemns him. Few people can afford Ruth’s Chris-it is terribly expensive. But, Mr. McMansion has no such worries. Most of his people probably sacrifice to give him his salary while their treat is to eat out at Golden Corral.
@ Anon:
And never forget, old TD lives one whopper of a lifestyle. no wonder they love one another.
@ Fr. Bryan:
Thank you for your explanation. Your critique of our mega churches is spot on.
@ dee:
And don’t forget, Golden Corral is a buffet…which means people can make up their own minds without a “visionary” to tell them what to order. 😉
@ Fr. Bryan:
Thank you, Father Bryan (and Dee!!!!).
Yes…I don’t mean to be triumphalistic!! Our own parish was torn apart by a pastor with serious interpersonal issues. It is healing now, under another pastor.
My goddaughter’s life was nearly ruined after 23 years in a predominantly Catholic “charismatic covenant community.”
Then there are the Legionaries and Regnum Christi. Things are tough all over!
@ Jenny:
I’m guessing Tom hasn’t come back because he left and has been “typing all day in his defense.” *snark*
dee wrote:
Then where’s his Designer BCD Glasses and Ever-Ready Ironic Sigh?
TedS. wrote:
And now for a filk of Ponyphonic’s “Lullaby for a Princess” which I originally came up with for Cee Jay and I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to post:
“Once did a Pastor who outshone the Son
Look out o’er his Kingdom and sigh:
‘Truly in the world there can be no Pastor
As HUMBLE and Godly and HUMBLE as I.’
“So great was His Vision, so brilliant His Glory
That long was the shadow He cast;
A shadow that fell o’er the sheep of his flock
And grew ever darker as day and night passed;
“But such is the lure of the limelight, how sweetly
Takes hold of the mind of its host;
And that HUMBLE pastor did nothing to stop
The destruction of those who had needed Him most…”
Fr. Bryan wrote:
You mean “Enlightened Self-Criticism before Party Commissars and the Proletariat”?
@ Fr. Bryan:
What you say is (afaik) true of modern popes, but going back … well: the Catholic church imposed a ten percent tithe on top of the ten percent taxes the lords took from the peasants, they got it direct from the Lord’s coffers, so they certainly were in the know about the peasant’s income (this is obviously way back when), true, no Pope has enforced (or even come up with) an accountability group, but they did sell indulgences and needed to know what people were up to in order to set a price. That is still on the Catholic books by the way. I am pretty sure Driscoll will also adopt this in the next few years, so it won’t be too lonely having that in your history 🙂
Look you have a point, many times I want to grab ppl by the shoulders, shake them and say “you do understand that being a Protestant means we protest authority, right?” but it doesn’t erase some really bad historical moves in the Catholic church such as all the saints you martyred before going “oops” – Joan of Arc and John of the Cross, and almost Teresa of Avila (for defending John of the Cross) come to mind – the selling of indulgences, the forced tithes all over Europe in the Middle Ages, there were reasons people left the church, you can’t deny that. It is just that that was 500 years ago, most people today have no idea why Protestants left. I was always told in church it was because Catholics weren’t Christian, but it was far more about political oppression and forced tithes than any real doctrinal issues for the average peasant. Not sure the peasants got a better deal leaving either, Calvinists were historically pretty oppressive themselves. They did, however, shun excess, I think they would roll over in their graves if they saw Neo-Calvinism and Pope Francis today.
Fr. Bryan wrote:
Yes, this. Abuse has no place in Christ’s Church. Period.
“And Jesus called them to him and said to them, ‘You know that those who are supposed to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.’” ~ Mark 10:42-45
@ Paula:
I wish folks like Tom would engage in conversation. I would really like to understand how they can claim to be living “biblically”. If they’re reading the Bible, how can they miss what it actually says about what they’re doing?
Oh, yeah. Almost forgot …
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.” ~ 2 Timothy 4:3
In other news, I believe the title of this post has a zero instead of an “o” in the word “of”. I meant to mention it earlier.
Compare:
The “Madcap”* World Of Steven Furtick and Elevation Church
with
The “Madcap”* World 0f Steven Furtick and Elevation Church
Is there an intentional prophetic significance to this?
Jenny wrote:
It may well be that “Tom” is not actually writing seriously, but parodying the kind of comment that a committed Elevationist would make. There’ve been one or two such visitors before, although their posts were more deliberately OTT than Tom’s.
Sometimes you just need to let off steam…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
The link that shows on my computer is clearly a zero!
the-madcap-world-0f-steven-furtick-and-elevation-church
@ An Attorney:
I may have been subconsciously making a point. I think I’ll keep it
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Remember Poe’s Law.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116623/sexual-assault-patrick-henry-college-gods-harvard
@ Jenny:
I agree, Jenny. But no doubt Tom feels it would be a danger to his faith in ‘Pastor’ to entertain anything but the highest possible thoughts, thinking as he may that the man can do no wrong.
I always find the scripture verses you choose serve to inform the content of the conversation and brings His truth to bear upon the circumstance in a way that is fitting and helpful. I think it’s accurate to conclude that Tom didn’t come back to engage in conversation because it’s not something he either could, or was willing to “endure.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Just looked up Poe’s Law. Now I get it! Thanks, Nick and HUG. Thanks, Paula. 🙂
Val wrote:
No argument here.
It has been quite sad to see this coloring book and also well meaning people like Tom (if he is for real) defend the indefensible. The vision is His not his – the bible makes this so clear.
Fr. Bryan wrote:
Sorry it took so long to get back here. My kids came home for the weekend and I wanted uninterrupted down time with them.
Perhaps we are speaking of different things.
What I observe in Neo-Cals that is similar to old time Popes (and Henry the VIII too, btw, not talking about a Catholic thing, but rather a human authority structure thing) was where the they (the authority figure) got to decide who was ‘save’ or breaking God’s divine order or whatever. They could kick people out of their fellowships/congregations/motherchurch if those people didn’t agree to doctrinal issues or even if they were disobedient on nondoctrinal issues.
This may be the difference we see in “individual consciences”.
So thank you for addressing this.
But I’m still waiting for either you or Catholic Homeschooler to point out all my historical inaccuracies. I really don’t think I had any. I am studier of history, myself, focusing mainly on the Renaissance, especially English, but with a sprinkling of Italian.
So it bothers me that someone has accused me of “So many historical inaccuracies”.
I believe that I have been falsely and grossly accused.
I’m still waiting for someone to address my “inaccuracies” whatever they may be. If there really are too many to count, then please, just pick one to start with.
I want to be accurate.
Or perhaps what I’m really guilty of is looking at history and coming to a different conclusion to what it all means than what you and Catholic Homeschooler think.
I think I have discovered the real reason for the possible repeat of baptisms at Elevation Church. According to their written guide for Spontaneous Baptisms, they supply the participant: Shorts, T shirt, men boxers, towel, wash cloth, comb, lotion, hair care products, deodorant, and flip flops, And for the women, sports bra, women underwear, and feminine hygiene products. A couple baptisms a month and I would never have to visit Wal-Mart for personal items. Surprised someone has not taken this and developed a picture depicting Jesus getting baptized in the Jordan, with his T shirt,shorts,flip flops, and towel, washcloth, comb, lotion, deodorant and hair care products waiting for him when he got out. You can’t make this stuff up!
@ Raymond:
🙂
Now there’s another exploit for those into extreme couponing.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Of course, it would be ironic for the pew-sitters to try saving a few bucks on toiletries while Furtick lives in a mansion.
Today I read an opinion piece that compares the Elevation baptism spectacles to a circus (actual circus): http://www.baptiststoday.org/cartledge-blog/2014/2/22/the-real-wonder-workers.html
I posted today on that coloring book, focusing on its emphasis of “vision” over the word of God. http://timfall.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/steven-furtick-vision-more-important-than-scripture/
Tim
So, I don’t know if anyone googled the artist’s avatar and elevation church coloring book like I mentioned a couple days ago. But, yesterday I asked her on FB if indeed she was the artist that illustrated 6 pages for Elevation Church. I told her that although the drawings are not unusual for her artistry, they are unusual for a church’s children’s coloring book. Could she tell me anything about the request from Elevation for her work.
I was thinking the best case scenario is that she is a new attendee of a satellite Elevation church or something and they were looking for someone to do a coloring book and she volunteered her art.
If that was the case then why would would she have deleted my comment on her Facebook site, but I did not screen shot my comment so…it’s just gone.
The only reason I haven’t said exactly who it is is because this artist does a lot of work and has it on sited that could be very triggering for those trying to stay away from pornographic images.
@ Patti:
So why would she care that you asked a question? What would be the point of deleting your comment?
Um ya, exactly. If I say my theory, then we will get into conspiracy theories which we don’t do here.
Bridget, did you google badwhitney elevation church coloring book? I just emailed Dee the websites just in case it’s anything she wants to screen shot or address at some time.
@ Patti:
I did, but I didn’t look around her site. I wasn’t up to checking it out at that moment. I don’t understand the name she chose to use. I’m sure I would have lots of questions . . .
Did you see the six coloring book pages?
An Attorney wrote:
Circque du Elevation
@ Patti:
She’s an unusual artist to hire to do work for a church’s coloring book.
@ Patti:
deviantart???? Good night. If this is true, it ail make for an interesting story. Graphic anime and Elevation coloring books? Totally weird….
@ dee:
This appears to be badwhitney’s resume, based on the name I saw floating around when I googled the search string Patti mentioned. It lists Elevation’s coloring book, as well as some storyboards and sermon openers for the church.
http://smashpansy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/Whitney_Cogar_Resume.pdf
dee wrote:
Don’t let the name of the site throw you off. I don’t know why it was named as it is, but it’s a site that is a lot like Flickr, or You Tube.
Anyone can join Deviant Art and upload content to Deviant Art, just like Flickr and You Tube. Just like you will find G-rated to R-rated material on You Tube, you can find the same variety of stuff on Deviant Art, from tame and mild to racy.
Some people do upload trashy material, but the vast majority on Deviant Art are teens- to- adults uploading paintings of stuff such as bowls of fruit, drawings of their Aunt Betsy, fan art of Darth Vader and Lady Gaga – nothing dirty.
Deviant Art allows for mature content, but it has to be artistic nudity. They do not permit kinky, dirty stuff. Mature content has to have the mature label applied to it by the artist at time of upload, so that it gets displayed with a grey box, forcing people to click on the grey box if they choose to see the nudity. If the artist does not do that, other artists report the art to the web site’s staff, who take care of it.
@ Daisy:
True, but after seeing some of her own work on there that is very racy and clicking on links from there I ended up in a very dark place.
@ Patti:
I also tried search words such as church and Christian and just other words that might bring up some art work that would have more positive themes but nothing.
Here’s an article Steven Furtick, Perry Noble and other ministry leaders should read:
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/19870-6-ways-to-prevent-an-embarrassing-ministry-scandal
@ singleman:
The article is worth reading; for those who can’t be a***edhaven’t time, [SPOILER ALERT] the six ways are:
1) Never build an cult of personality
2) Develop a culture of openness
3) Insist on financial transparency
4) Don’t build a family dynasty
5) Beware of creating a greed monster
6) Never tolerate a spirit of entitlement
[END OF SPOILER]
I’d add another:
7) Be faithful to your calling for life, but never hold a position of corporate authority for more than three years.
The exact timespan is debatable, but I hope you get the point: once something has grown to a certain size, relinquish the job and start small again. And all along, do what Jesus did over three years: train those who will take over from you. If you have also built a culture of openness, the whole congregation (and not just your buddies who agree with you) will be aware of this process.
And to clear a potential point of confusion: apostle is not a position of corporate authority, as Jesus painstakingly taught his Apostles. By extension, neither is shepherd, teacher, evangelist or prophet – or even elder. None of these are managerial jobs in a heavily-financed organisation with paid staff.
The html tags really did not go well there.
HaHaHaHa! Elevationwatch is funny. Looks like Chairman Furtick has amazing admirers. http://t.co/Rv3j9uQhQH
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@ Hester:
Steve Furtick makes fallen Jim Bakker & PTL look like “saints”. And I think he could be Jim Jones reincarnated! He is clever in that he has surrounded himself with henchmen that protect him especially when he knows he is being watched by the “EVIL” media! I am amazed that people in this day & time can still be brainwashed in the name of Jesus?! I pray for those who number in the thousands in his “Flock”. And I will agree that the name Elevation (Church?) was a good choice, he has certainly “Elevated” himself to Superstar status in his own mind! @ Tom: