This is sad and disappointing, and only makes the school look worse.

I found Robert Peters’ February 8th “Open Letter to Stephen Jones and Bob Jones University” on Facebook to be very pointed in its criticism. Worth reading.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/robert-peters/an-open-letter-to-stephen-jones-and-bob-jones-university/10152121664261749

An excerpt:

You also spent a lot of time on how GRACE has diverged from your “objectives,” but you won’t disclose those “objectives” or how GRACE has diverged from them because it’s between you and them. It is not. Hundreds of survivors and alumni have a right to know exactly what part of your “objectives” conflicted with the investigative goals of an objective third party firm. How did GRACE “go beyond the original outlined intent?” Did they uncover more than you expected? Was their investigation not narrow enough for your comfort? When you say “it had gone askew,” what do you mean? Do you mean they looked where you didn’t want them to? Was it too painful for BJU to face abuses when they were complicit?

Furthermore, why do you expect a third party investigation to align with your objectives? If GRACE followed your “objectives,” they would cease to be objective! This illustrates a fundamental flaw; the goal of the investigation should not be narrow, as your response implies (and if you’re honest, this is the goal of terminating GRACE’s agreement: gain contractual leverage, narrow the scope of the report). It should bring darkness to light, institutional and otherwise. (John 1:5) We are a City on a Hill, not a fortress of secrecy and intentional vagueness.

Looks like GRACE told God the Grandson (Bob Jones III) and God the Great-Grandson (Stephen Jones — not Bob Jones IV?) something other than what they wanted to hear.

I went to The Wilds, their summer camp/indoctrination center way back in the 70s. Even for someone brought up in a fundamentalist GARBC Baptist church, it was ridiculous. Their focus for girls at the time was The Evil of Short Skirts. Never mind I was 12 and scrawny, the sight of my knees apparently had the power to make boys lust. And of course that would be my fault. By the time my little sister went, short skirts weren’t in style. Now it was about not wearing men’s clothes, and jeans with pockets on the back were for boys only(why?). Plus, they drew attention to the buttocks (I’m not making this up). My sister was scrawny like me, and the only pair that really fit Had Pockets. So my mom removed the pockets. But that wasn’t good enough for these whack jobs. She was forbidden from wearing the evil attire. The good news is that my parents stopped talking about sending us to Bob Jones. Can’t believe that place is still in business, but not surprised at all about weirdness and abuse going on there.

@ Dee Dee:

Now it was about not wearing men’s clothes, and jeans with pockets on the back were for boys only(why?). Plus, they drew attention to the buttocks (I’m not making this up).

I don't know about BJU Press, but the Abeka curriculum out of PCC still teaches this in their Sex, Love and Romance book – in fact they compared women who wear pants to "women of the street." Their health curriculum leaves out the reproductive system too. Very popular among homeschoolers.

Of course my homeschool health class included coloring all 11 plates in the reproductive system chapter of The Anatomy Coloring Book (which is basically Gray's Anatomy with colored pencils), so clearly my mind has been corrupted by sin.

That part of the rule book is for men. Women have always been allowed to wear jewelry! @ Deb:

I was in public school in a Northern state 50 years ago and the girls had to wear dresses to school. In the very cold weather we wore "ski pants" under our dresses and took them off and hung them up on our coat peg while at school. It had nothing to do with Christian mores. It was just a rule, part of the current culture which later changed. But when folks attempt to use the Bible to back up dresses, no slacks, etc. it gets bad. I knew nothing of this BJU investigation until recently, having little or nothing to do with BJU anyway. I hope they shut down due to lack of students and wisdom of the part of parents.

@ Deb

When I first moved to North Carolina in 1970 I was clueless. I went to work the first day on my new job, at a county public hospital, in a pair of pants and a long white coat. It caused a mini-ripple of enthusiasm. The way they told me the story was that the nurses had wanted to start being allowed to wear pants on the job, but administration had said, let's wait and see what Dr. X does, and if she wears pants then you can too. What? So I could get labeled as the new destroyer of civilization? And nobody warned me before hand; I just walked into it like a lamb to the slaughter.

I do have to say, culture itself has changed so radically from "back in the day" that some of the residuals of bygone days that are still present in some Bible Colleges do not look quite as shocking to those of us who remember "when." Not to say that they do not need to change some things like dress codes and such, just saying that it has not been too long ago that they would have been only slightly more conservative than the surrounding secular culture. I sill wear pants. It covers up my scrawny legs and keeps me warm in the winter and out of the poison ivy in the summer.

I went to Catholic school through third grade in the 1960’s. We had “color day” in which we didn’t have to wear a uniform; we could wear clothes from home. One girl wore … gasp … a pantsuit! The top came just past the top of her thighs, as long as a minidress. And the nun was so offended by the pants that she made the girl take them off and just wear the top all day. Can you imagine?

If you follow the link (in the post) to the Facebook page, you can sign the change.org petition for BJU to rehire GRACE, etc…

For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Looks like GRACE told God the Grandson (Bob Jones III) and God the Great-Grandson (Stephen Jones — not Bob Jones IV?) something other than what they wanted to hear.

Bob Jones IV got into trouble while at the Bob. I guess they thought he was too rebellious to take the reins.

The NYT article had some interesting back story. The reporter let the Bob know he’d be on campus that day but when he arrived with his photographer, no one official took any interest. No one gave them a tour; no one greeted them. If they asked anyone on campus about the issue, the students said they didn’t know anything and the faculty referred them to public relations.

So, Dr. Camille Lewis, one of those speaking out against GRACE’s firing (and someone who is banned from campus), took them on a tour. Near the end, when the photographer was taking pictures, the head of Public Safety sidled up (Camille’s words) and told him he wasn’t supposed to be there without an escort. They told this guy they had called ahead. So when the Public Safety guy heard this, he got on his phone and went into the Administration building. That’s when the photographer insisted they leave right away.

I’m sorry, but when the NYT comes a callin’, you make sure you’re on top of their visit. However, I’m glad they weren’t; less chance to spin the situation in their favor.

Oh, and there’s Camille herself! *waves*

lemonaidfizz wrote:

GRACE’s findings must have been pretty disturbing for BJU to decide that the inevitable media fallout would be a better alternative than allowing the investigative report to be completed and released.

Sometimes I don’t think the Bob understands the Streisand Effect.

Nancy wrote:

@ Deb

When I first moved to North Carolina in 1970 I was clueless. I went to work the first day on my new job, at a county public hospital, in a pair of pants and a long white coat. It caused a mini-ripple of enthusiasm. The way they told me the story was that the nurses had wanted to start being allowed to wear pants on the job, but administration had said, let’s wait and see what Dr. X does, and if she wears pants then you can too. What? So I could get labeled as the new destroyer of civilization? And nobody warned me before hand; I just walked into it like a lamb to the slaughter.

I do have to say, culture itself has changed so radically from “back in the day” that some of the residuals of bygone days that are still present in some Bible Colleges do not look quite as shocking to those of us who remember “when.” Not to say that they do not need to change some things like dress codes and such, just saying that it has not been too long ago that they would have been only slightly more conservative than the surrounding secular culture. I sill wear pants. It covers up my scrawny legs and keeps me warm in the winter and out of the poison ivy in the summer.

Nancy, did you do a stint on an Indian reservation, gallbladder surgery 24/7?

Deb wrote:

Thanks for your comment. I just looked at the BJU dress code, and the women’s rules are much longer than the men’s.

I would be in violation of the BJU dress code most of the time because of this on page 36 of the Student Handbook:

“Jewelry and Body Art

Necklaces, earrings, bracelets and tattoos are not appropriate including in the residence halls.”

I have always enjoyed wearing jewelry. When I was a teenager, I worked two summers in the (gasp!) jewelry department of Ivey’s (later bought by Dillards), and it was a wonderful experience.

Unless “Deb” is a man, this is incorrect. And here is part of the problem. BJU is completely misrepresented without apology, without retraction, and without repentance. Shameful. If you can’t read the rulebook, then it is probably better not to quote it. Hopefully, Deb will fix this error by removing the comment and offering a public apology for the comment.

BJU has a lot of problems, and firing GRACE appears to be a bad one (although remember that GRACE’s reputation is not all that good). BJU should not have fired GRACE, and certainly not without giving reasons. We don’t know what went on, and BJU should make it clear.

Regarding objectives, GRACE was hired by BJU to fulfill BJU’s objectives. If GRACE isn’t doing what they were hired to do, then they are in breach of contract, and that means the firing should happen. If GRACE has a contract, then they need to keep it. They can’t go outside of it without rewriting it. Unfortunately, we don’t know that since neither BJU nor GRACE has made that public. BJU did state that they tried to meet with GRACE and GRACE refused. If that’s true, then that may be why GRACE didn’t know the problems with their investigation.

If some group has different objectives, then they should hire GRACE. The survivor’s group is perfectly able to do that.

The NYT piece, overall, was bad journalism, as has much of the reporting on this topic. Commenting on the policies of conduct has nothing to do with the topic of the article. It apparently was intended to prejudice the reader without considering why those policies may have been in place.

In the end, BJU should not have fired GRACE. It is unfortunate that they did, and it is bad that they have not said why. Hopefully they will get this thing going again.

Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:

Nancy, did you do a stint on an Indian reservation, gallbladder surgery 24/7?

A member of the peanut gallery is jealous this morn. Feeling sour that he never had the fun of doing gallbladder surgery 24/7. Or was it heart surgery 24/7 or kidney transplant or general nursing? Whatever, who cares?

He is actually low on Vitamin D; been a long winter already.

Gene wrote:

Commenting on the policies of conduct has nothing to do with the topic of the article. It apparently was intended to prejudice the reader without considering why those policies may have been in place.

This is what you're missing. It's exactly relevant but it speaks to the entire culture at Bob Jones University.

It's not just BJU's firing of GRACE. It's century-long treatment of women and children and even men who are not in power.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant, Gene. And sunshine needs to be directed on every part of Bob Jones University.

dee wrote:

Your comment helps me to see just how the church and parachurch group get away with despicable behavior (all allegedly of course).

I was going to say that, but you beat me to it. 😉

Nancy wrote:

@ Deb
When I first moved to North Carolina in 1970 I was clueless. I went to work the first day on my new job, at a county public hospital, in a pair of pants and a long white coat. It caused a mini-ripple of enthusiasm. The way they told me the story was that the nurses had wanted to start being allowed to wear pants on the job, but administration had said, let’s wait and see what Dr. X does, and if she wears pants then you can too. What? So I could get labeled as the new destroyer of civilization? And nobody warned me before hand; I just walked into it like a lamb to the slaughter.
I do have to say, culture itself has changed so radically from “back in the day” that some of the residuals of bygone days that are still present in some Bible Colleges do not look quite as shocking to those of us who remember “when.” Not to say that they do not need to change some things like dress codes and such, just saying that it has not been too long ago that they would have been only slightly more conservative than the surrounding secular culture. I sill wear pants. It covers up my scrawny legs and keeps me warm in the winter and out of the poison ivy in the summer.

I grew up in a rural town with very strict rules. In 1972, they finally allowed female students to wear matching pantsuits….by the time I graduated from high school, ’75 the girls were wearing Wrangler jeans and boots just like the boys….girls in skirts and pantsuits just didn’t cut it in agriculture class….could you see a girl trying to castrate a calf or trim hooves in a skirt, circa 1973?

dee wrote:

I am prostate with grief for our unforgivable error.

Dear Dee. I trust that your apology statement was meant to be *prostrate* and not a *prostate* as typoed — although it appears there are those types with prostates who should be apologizing prostrate. B-

brad/futuristguy wrote:

Dear Dee. I trust that your apology statement was meant to be *prostrate* and not a *prostate* as typoed — although it appears there are those types with prostates who should be apologizing prostrate. B-

lol! Thanks for the chuckle!

I graduated from BJU in 1953; am not too surprised at recent event. Was kinda surprised that they ever hired Grace group. I may have been totally out of it during my years there, but don’t remember too much stuff being talked about. I came from a highly dysfunctional family, tho, if that made a difference. Had some wonderful teachers, whom I still remember at age 82.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

In other news, I have finally managed to play through the third page of Rachmaninov’s Bb minor Prelude with no wrong notes.
(Still allegretto rather than allegro at the moment, but you must always play it right before you play it fast, or you will always play it craply.)

Congrats, as one who studied music for years, I am impressed.

Sexual assault on college campuses has gained national attention. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-addresses-sexual-assault-colleges-article-1.1591696
I highly doubt that BJU is exempt from this problem. Their decision to have GRACE investigate could have shown their initiative to right any wrongs without being forced to. Their firing of GRACE is highly suspect. It seems that, once again, law enforcement must intervene where Christians fail.

I don’t have a problem with a private university having a dress code. Lots of private schools require uniforms. What I do take issue with is the hypocrisy of requiring a female to not draw attention to herself, and then not defending her when she is assaulted.

@ Former CLC’er:

All this talk makes me glad I attended Catholic University

Hey, I regularly take online classes from the Mormons (BYU). I also had to sign an online (non-religious) agreement with the Mormons to become a home FamilySearch.com record indexer. What does that say about me? 😉

Deb wrote:

@ Bridget:
I made an honest mistake in a comment (not the post) about jewelry which I acknowledged as soon as it was pointed out in the comments.
Observing the reaction of BJU supporters made the mistake worth it IMHO. I believe it reveals matters of the heart.

I quite understood. What I couldn’t understand is the importance placed on your comment by Gene and to what ends He thought you needed to go to correct it — all over a rule about jewelry! Gene seems much more concerned about BJU’s rules being represented properly than he is about how BJU treats their students — in the name of God. Does it ever occur to BJU, or Gene, that they may be misrepresenting God to the world?

FWIW – I don’t believe jewelry or tattoos, on women or men, have anything to so with one’s righteousness in Christ. I’m not thinking that Jesus would shun anyone who had them, unlike many ‘Christian’ establishments.

Bridget wrote:

Let me see, Deb apparently made that comment to prejudice the readers. And you know this how?

Uh, Bridget. Did you read the comment? It was the NYT piece that was the point of discussion, not Deb’s mistake.

Do you have a low opinion of the intelligence and the concern for the spiritually abused that the readers have at TWW?

Not all of them. I think there are some that are relatively uninformed on some things (such as BJU). There are a number of people here who believed Deb’s comments, and other similar claims by others. Yet I knew immediately that wasn’t true. I knew she had misread it. Others, with less knowledge, would not know that. I think there are a number of very kind and intelligent and gracious people here. And there are also some other people here. 😉

Deb wrote:

Observing the reaction of BJU supporters made the mistake worth it IMHO. I believe it reveals matters of the heart

I noticed this too and was going to comment but wasn’t sure how.
Your comment was perfect.

With the alleged terrible things going on at BJU (beams, logs, entire trees including all the roots and branches), someone is going to freak out concerning a splinter (speck, piece of dust).

That someone freaking out over the speck really needs to take a closer look at his priorities and re-examine the Kool-aide he’s been drinking.

Marsha wrote:

Gene, why in the world would you say that GRACE’s reputation isn’t that good?

Because of the allegations made by ABWE that were not fully answered and similar allegations in dealings with PBI. I simply don’t know the truth. But I know that there are some fairly serious charges made. Overall, I am neutral on GRACE. I thought it was good for BJU to hire them, and I hope that BJU continues with them. They need to.

Bridget wrote:

What I couldn’t understand is the importance placed on your comment by Gene and to what ends He thought you needed to go to correct it — all over a rule about jewelry! Gene seems much more concerned about BJU’s rules being represented properly than he is about how BJU treats their students — in the name of God.

Because truth is never well represented by errors. Errors detract from credibility, even if unintentional.

Does it ever occur to BJU, or Gene, that they may be misrepresenting God to the world?

I can’t speak for BJU, but yes for me.

FWIW – I don’t believe jewelry or tattoos, on women or men, have anything to so with one’s righteousness in Christ. I’m not thinking that Jesus would shun anyone who had them, unlike many ‘Christian’ establishments.

Glad you agree. It means you won’t be bothered by my gold bracelet. (My mom doesn’t like it though, so I take it off when I am around her.)

@ Josh:

Hmm… yes, I’ve no plans for the B flat major!

The lassie playing the B minor (you did register it was the B b minor I’m doing? – just checking) looks as though she arrived on a horse. Can’t comment on whether BJU would approve, of course.

Deb, thanks for the clip. Yes, happy, happy. And dancing, too. Ah, the joy and freedom!

Deebs –

Has the weather panned out as promised?

If nothing else, with hearing about all of these “Jones” that are in top leadership the school shows there is a lot of nepotism. It sounds like this school may be run more like a “family business” than a Christian College. You get in leadership many times due to being “family” rather than the right person for the job.

As others have said, I am sure in Stephen Jones “explanation” of the firing he wasn’t being fully truthful and trying to backpedal and make it look like there was a valid reason to fire them.

It was quite spiteful to expel this student a few days before graduation. I hope the student files suit to get his degree and wins. I guess like a lot of groups they don’t do well with those who question.

Gene wrote:

There is nothing immoral about these policies (however, legitimate or illegitimate they may be on other grounds)

In my opinion, treating young adults like children and telling them how to dress is immoral. they are able to vote at 18 so I think they should decide how they want to dress.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

@ Josh:
Hmm… yes, I’ve no plans for the B flat major!
The lassie playing the B minor (you did register it was the B b minor I’m doing? – just checking) looks as though she arrived on a horse. Can’t comment on whether BJU would approve, of course.

Nope! I totally missed that ever-important b. Although I have a recording of all of the preludes, I tend to forget which one is which without being constantly reminded. 😮

With that said, it’s not as bad as the Bb major prelude, but the Bb minor prelude has some challenging left hand parts.

dee wrote:

You pick on a minor (really, really minor point) and build it into a major conflagration. It is happening again. You made your point. We disagree that this was a major point and we have said it was an error.

I only initiated one thing about it . (Verity posted twice about it.) Others questioned me and I gave them the respect of a short response. So recognize that I did not pursue it. Even now, you are the one who brought it up. Not me.

There is a reason that you are in permanent moderation.

Ah yes. I recognize that. Funny, in a way. Dee, you realize, don’t you, that you have apparently never censored people for the way they have treated me here. I am fine with that. But it appears sort of a double standard. I have been doing the internet-interaction-blog thing for more than fifteen years, so I know my way around. I can tell you that I have never been treated other places the way I have here.

Finally, if ABWE’s response is your “proof” that there is an issue with GRACE, then I have little further to say.

I didn’t say ABWE’s response was “proof” of anything. I suggested, on the basis of three major organizations, that GRACE’s reputation may not be all that good. I don’t see how that is disputable, particularly given the issues surrounding PBI. ABWE may be less of a problem. I don’t know. But again, I was asked about that. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have mentioned it.

Dee, we shouldn’t be scared of conversation, even with people that we disagree with. But we should keep it respectful and I have done that from my end. I am glad you agree with me about BJU. I am sorry we diagree about other things, but I am okay with that. I have tried to treat you and others here with respect, and will continue to do so when I post. Thanks.

nmgirl wrote:

In my opinion, treating young adults like children and telling them how to dress is immoral. they are able to vote at 18 so I think they should decide how they want to dress.

I would be willing to bet your employer doesn’t agree with you on that, unless you are self-employed. Most employers have a dress code and enforce with similar rationale to what BJU does, namely, that while you are here, this is how we do it. When you leave, do what you want.

Having a dress code is not immoral. I don’t agree with the dress code. Remember, their policies like this are one reason why I don’t recommend people go there.

I know that a couple of BJU alum have posted on here, so perhaps they’ll give their input, maybe not (and I understand).

Because I’ve always been curious: why do people go to Bob Jones University? What are people majoring in and what fields do graduates mostly go into (I assume the ministry)? What is the “value” of a BJU education?

Camille K. Lewis wrote:

I am local to Bob Jones University, and I am a whistle-blower about the problems. The harassment that continues in this location is something that is difficult to talk about because I’m afraid of even more. Police reports have been filed, certified return-receipt letters have been written (and are lost because the BJU (federally sanctioned) post office can’t find them).

In other words, you are a Thought-Criminal and they have invoked Scientology’s Fair Game Law.

As for the Federally-sanctioned Post Office conveniently losing mail, remember that GOP Presidential Candidates since Reagan have had to make pilgrimage to BJU for Bob Jones the Nth’s Blessing Ex Cathedra to kick off their campaign/secure the Christianese base vote, and BJU very much likes being Kingmaker.

Steve240 wrote:

If nothing else, with hearing about all of these “Jones” that are in top leadership the school shows there is a lot of nepotism. It sounds like this school may be run more like a “family business” than a Christian College. You get in leadership many times due to being “family” rather than the right person for the job.

“Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and Bob Jones III…”

You mean you don’t know how to become THE head of a Fundagelical megachurch, parachurch, or Bible College? The most sure way is to be born the son of the current head; 100% surety if your name ends in “Junior”. The ManaGawd mantle (and Speshul Standing before Gawd) is passed on from father to son like any other personal property.

You DO know the Catholic rule forbidding married clergy was instituted for this very reason? In a day when political POWER was routinely inherited like any personal property?

Rafiki wrote:

Because I’ve always been curious: why do people go to Bob Jones University?

Because you’ll lose your salvation and burn in Hell if you go to any Heathen Secular University? Because you won’t be contaminated by the presence of those Heathen?

It’s a consolation/booby prize for those Forbidden the Real Thing, in this case a college education/university degree.

M. Joy wrote:

Early in our marriage, we lived in SC near BJU, so I met a lot of folks who were BJU grads. It seemed to me like there were a lot of multiple generational grads. The grandfather went there, the parents, then the kids, and they all just thought Bob Jones was almost a perfect man.

“Almost”?

Don’t you know a God (or CULT Leader) is Perfect In Every Way and Can Do No Wrong?

Bob Jones is just “L Ron Hubbard, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

M. Joy wrote:

Music is a popular major and they have a LOT of rules about what music is acceptable.

This reminds me of something that happened at the church we attended in SC. The music director and his wife were both BJU music grads. One Sunday, a visiting guest soloist sang in church, picked up the microphone from stand and held it while he was singing. The following week, the music director met with the pastor. I heard he almost came unglued because the guest soloist held the microphone. Apparently, they are taught at BJU that the only acceptable way to sing is with the microphone in the stand because holding a microphone brings glory to the singer, not God. The pastor didn’t think it was a big deal and nicely told him to get over it. The music director actually left and QUIT his job because the pastor didn’t hold to the same music standards Bob Jones taught.

@ M. Joy:
My brother lives in the area and works for a major corp. He says it’s not uncommon for recent grads to not be able to deal with life in a heated company debate or on the production line interacting with others who are NOT BJU people.

Once again the Baptists prove that they have just as big a problem as the Catholics.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/deacon-at-fairview-heights-church-accused-of-sexually-abusing-boys/article_da815e34-3f20-5fda-a14a-c610c792878a.html

Through a glass darkly wrote:

“Something”, Gene??? I believe this is known as an understatement. There is nothing right about abuse. This kind of sentence reveals just how little you understand about abuse and the long-term effects it has on the abused.

I said I was bowing out, but I want to respond to this since it opened the possibility of misunderstanding. If you know me, or have read what I have said here, you know that I have repeatedly said that everything about abuse is immoral and wrong. I am well aware of abuse and the long-term affects of it. My wording of “something” was not intended to communicate that there was something right about abuse. It was a statement comparing two things: one is immoral; the other is not.

Thanks for calling attention to that so I could clarify it. I should have worded that better. At least I am not prostate though. 🙂

BTW, this is why it is hard to communicate at times. There is no way to overestimate the ways in which people can misunderstand a simple statement. I encourage us all to read with charity. These are informal blog comments, often written quickly without a lot of editing. Don’t assume the worst.

TW wrote:

Once again the Baptists prove that they have just as big a problem as the Catholics.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/deacon-at-fairview-heights-church-accused-of-sexually-abusing-boys/article_da815e34-3f20-5fda-a14a-c610c792878a.html

Well, here local in East Texas it’s the Baptist ministers with underage girls.
http://www.12newsnow.com/story/24697647/sexual-assault-victim-speaks-out-against-bridge-city-youth-minister

Rafiki wrote:

Because I’ve always been curious: why do people go to Bob Jones University? What are people majoring in and what fields do graduates mostly go into (I assume the ministry)? What is the “value” of a BJU education?

I went there in the mid-80s as a graduate assistant. I had to follow the faculty handbook, so I had a lot of freedom the students didn’t have, but more responsibility. I went because both my pastor and music director went. I respected them and, at the time, wanted the kind of Christianity I saw in them. I still can’t figure out how I got the M.Ed. degree; my B.Sci. was in Communications/Media. I did go into it with my eyes at least half-open; I knew I could only teach in Christian schools and, at the time, that’s what I wanted. A BJU degree opened a lot of doors that way. However, at the time, the Bob was not accredited at all, so if I wanted to teach in public schools, I couldn’t. The degree is pretty much worthless.

I met my husband there, so it wasn’t all bad. The faculty are the best. Most consider what they’re doing to be a ministry and a sacrifice for Christ. What the Bob puts on them as far as extra-curricular duties (chaperoning outings, being campus parents), low pay, and no voice in how things are run, is a true disgrace. At one point, the Bob was considering regional accreditation, which would open up doors to more graduate schools and more careers. However, the entire culture of the campus would have to change with respect to the faculty.

A lot of homeschooled kids go to Bob Jones as it’s the only option their parents will consider.

Gene wrote:

And no, Camille, it doesn’t speak to a century of mistreatment. Things like not drinking alcohol, not going to movies, or having theological and philosophical disagreements with other ministry leaders is not mistreating people. BJU has mistreated people. These are not examples of it.

Yes, you can cherry pick these instances. Those theological disagreements, however, are code for petty fights. The Joneses didn’t like Billy Graham because he pushed integration. And their fight with John MacArthur had more to do with his father’s support of Billy Graham than anything else. How about their fight with John Piper’s Dad, Bill? He supported Graham too, and that’s why his church across the street from campus is still off-limits.

I could go on. And while you’d like to disparage my professional degree, I have all the research to back it up. Every last piece.

Camille Lewis was still happily employed by BJU when I was refusing to recommend it as a viable college option because of these kinds of issues (reputation, accreditation, policies, etc.). Don’t get me wrong; I am glad you are against abuse and bad counsel, and I am glad you are using your voice against it. But many of us were there long before you started, and long before Camille and her group started.

My “group”? What is that? This is odd, Gene. Why are you mansplaining like this? Yes, I worked there. Happily? Well, . . . whatever. My story is here:

http://www.drslewis.org/camille/ebenezers/

I am well-aware that there was a long history of problems with BJU and its treatment of employees since the beginning. I’ve documented it. Instead of assuming that I am the Person-Who-Must-Be-Corrected, you should see what I say and the research I have.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Yeah, oh yeah. The whole county is in their back pocket. It’s pretty hard to go against ’em around here.

Josh wrote:

but the Bb minor prelude has some challenging left hand parts.

Indeed; dang those gratuitously big Rachmaninov chords.

“Because BJU and the IFB protect criminals and liars.”
*
I wish commentors wouldn’t write things like that. I think those kind of comments rebound back upon the blog authors, who may or may not care actually. But then they get threats.
*
Also, it’s not necessarily true.

Gene wrote:

Marsha wrote:

Because of the allegations made by ABWE that were not fully answered

This letter might help you to understand GRACE’s point of view: http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/GRACE-Response-February-10-2013.pdf

Way back when we were in an MLM, there were endless rules, one being that ladies were not allowed to wear pants. That was one rule I did not want to abide by.

It was time for the big function, and the keynote speakers were none other than the president of the corporation and his wife. They walked out on stage and what do you think the wife was wearing?

She had on a beautiful pantsuit which which was forbidden by our local leadership. That was My 'Ah-Ha' Moment as I was sitting there in my pantsuit.

@ Gene: I’m much worse than just self-employed. I am an unmarried female who has a college degree in Science who works in a male dominated industry and I am a pr choice FEMINIST who votes Democrat.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Josh wrote:
Indeed; dang those gratuitously big Rachmaninov chords.

There’s a solution for that…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKKlhYF53w

Gene wrote:

…the possibility of misunderstanding…. Don’t assume the worst.

Gene,
There is no misunderstanding. A person who understands what abuse does would never blow it off like this. They would say unequivocally and with utter clarity that abuse is always wrong, always causes pain, is never the victim’s fault, and that there is NEVER any reasonable explanation for sinning against someone in this manner. You might in this context have also pointed out that any organization that calls itself Christian would stand, like Jesus, alongside those who are hurt and burdened as a result of the sin of others.

I am not assuming the worst. I think you often try to bring a different perspective to the discussion, and you are pretty quickly shut down. This illustrates why. You just don’t get it. You show no awareness whatsoever what this kind of sentence – so offhandedly typed – means to those who have been hurt. If someone close to you had been violated, you would never dream of writing a sentence like “There is something wrong about abuse.” You would fight to make sure no one ever got hurt like that again. And Gene, I hope God protects you and yours so you continue to live in your little bubble where all is roses and rainbows.

M. Joy wrote:

Apparently, they are taught at BJU that the only acceptable way to sing is with the microphone in the stand because holding a microphone brings glory to the singer, not God.

I have always had a hard time understanding this mindset amongst the numerous flavors of American Christianity. Is the Almighty that ego sensitive and control driven that he can’t tolerate his beloved humans receiving their own accolade and honor? The writer of Psalm 8 didn’t seem to think so. Green with jealousy and always requiring genuflection is something I associate with the gods of the Greeks & the Canaanites, not the God of Abraham.

@ Former CLC’er:
I beat feet from Maryland just north of DC at noon Wed headed for Raleigh. I figured I was better getting close than getting stuck where I was for a few days of boredom. 🙂

@ NC Now:
I grew up in NE Ohio, spent 9 years in Michigan (lots of ice and snow, especially on 4/1!), and more years in OH, before moving to TX. Learned to drive in a snow storm. As a manager in NE Ohio, I sent employees home from a rural office/lab when it began to snow and 8 inches was predicted; got in trouble from the boss, who stayed and ended up stuck, while the rest of us made it home OK.

People in the South, especially TX, do not know how to drive in snow/ice and it causes accidents which is the big problem. The secret is the egg-shell between foot and pedal approach. Using as little brake or gas at a time as possible. Gentle braking and acceleration.

Worst experience was in 1985 being on interstate hwy at 75 mph on dry pavement, going over a rise and hitting ice at the top of a 3 mile slope with semis all over the place. Chose the median which was 6″ deep in snow, slowed to 20 and got back on the road, wiggling between the semis and going on to the Baptist State Convention that afternoon.

Yes, Camille should write an article for this site. No one is more qualified to address the issues at BJU.

Jerry wrote:

My problem with this is that it wasn’t like somebody found a cd and turned them in. That would have been enough. But we would actually proactively search their rooms for uncheckable items. We were told it was our spiritual duty to turn our fellow students in for whatever violation we saw as this was our spiritual duty and an act of obedience to God.

Now you can call yourself Commissar Jerry of the Thought Police.
“LONG! LIVE! BIG! BROTHER!”

Rafiki wrote:

I know that a couple of BJU alum have posted on here, so perhaps they’ll give their input, maybe not (and I understand).
Because I’ve always been curious: why do people go to Bob Jones University? What are people majoring in and what fields do graduates mostly go into (I assume the ministry)? What is the “value” of a BJU education?

I have been lurking and have never posted here. I spent over half of my life on Bob Jones campus . Administrators and faculty were my next door and down-the-road neighbors. The campus barn was one of our favorite playspaces. Right across from the barn lived the Principal of the Academy and next door to him was the Bible Faculty member who famously wrote the BJU Press publication explaining why racism is commanded by the Bible thus defending the school’s anti-integration stance – specifically interracial dating and marriage. Do not be confused by the Larry King Live interview by Doctor Bob Jones III – or more correctly Mr. Jones (all of the Jones’ doctoral degrees are honorary except for Stephen’s and his was made up to ensure he could pass the program. There are others who have been to this site who can talk more on that topic.) My familial ties with the University predate World War II. My life WAS Bob Jones University. I was not permitted to go anywhere else for school. Yes, my parents required it – it really wasn’t even a question. But the University required it as condition for my parents continued employment. What I will say in this post is from first-hand observation and my own personal experience. And yes, it does reflect opinion.

Bob Jones University grew its own network of churches and Christian schools. Churches being planted by Bob Jones “Preacher Boys” using seed money from the University and always with the goal of having a school attached to the Church. There was always a contract with BJU that went along with that seed money. Basically BJU owned and controlled the church. Of course, the pastor always sends the kids from the church to BJU. A school attached to the Church often means a larger congregation and a larger group of new students to send to Bob Jones. Those students graduate the University go an recommend BJU… you get the concept. I worked for quite some time there were times when there were over 6,000 students. And the students expected, for the most part, to be treated like children because that is how they were treated at home. We were all told – and I can hear the echoes of Bob Jones Junior in my head -that accreditation is unnecessary and will never bee asked about. If it was, just let him know and he wo9uld set it straight with the questioning University or employer. He even got Strom Thurmond, a SC Senator for a very long time, to smooth thing with Clemson and University of SC to ensure BJ graduates could go there.

Many students, when they have graduated from Bob Jones have gotten a very rude awakening when they try to use their Nursing degree in OH, or their education degree in just about any state except for SC: the lack of accreditation of Bob Jones has meant that most have to work in Christian schools because they have much lower standards for their teachers OR they can go get an accredited degree somewhere else for more money.

Graduates are realizing the educational issues of Bob Jones. They also no longer cotton to being treated like a child nor other spiritual and psychological abuse that goes on at Bob Jones. The last several years their numbers have every year significantly dropped. This pas fall they had fewer than 3,000 students.

There is no value to a Bob Jones degree in the real world today. When one points out the issue of graduates being able to find employment the schools apologists are quick to point out that the purpose of a Bob Jones Education is NOT to help anyone get a job. One cannot get them to further explain. Even the technical college system in South Carolina does not recognize a Bob Jones degree. The technical colleges will – in their own words – “accept some transfer credits from Bob Jones University as a courtesy.”

Please realize how difficult it is to explain this for me because it means that half of my life doesn’t matter and was a complete lie.

If you look carefully at the many things that have happened throughout all of this you will notice a pattern on behalf of the University of saying one thing to explain their position and the next time they say something, the first issue is never mentioned but it is something completely different. Even the letter sent to GRACE was full of inaccuracies. Stephen Jones had Stepped down effective immediately and was going to be on medical leave throughout the semester and occasionally pop in and help out and he would run graduation. The letter says something different.

I was interviewed by GRACE. They have done nothing outside of the stated purpose for the investigation. The University started all of this because of the courage of Mr. Peterman and the Do Right BJU group. Camille and Grant Lewis were there and have provided amazing support to the myriad survivors. Also at that time the BJUnity group under the leadership of Mr. Jeffrey Hoffman was organizing and being there for a an additional group of people who were daily told from the chapel pulpit that they are worthless and in the words of Bob Jones III, they should all just be stoned dead. Stephen and the University are now denying that and are pointing to Penn State’s situation and the impetus of the hiring of GRACE. And I must take this opportunity to say that only a complete and total ninnynincompoop who really has not done true research would question the qualifications or motive of GRACE and point to ABEW and PBI as proof (both of them did almost the identical thing that BJU is doing) Bob Jones has to be realizing the repercussions of the sex abuse at Penn State hit as high as the President of that institution. They have to be worried the same thing will happen there.

What has been happening at Bob Jones – the not reporting of sex abuse – is institutionalized, discussed, and approved at the administrators meetings. The former primary “counselor” on the campus was a graduate of the University for all of his degrees all of which are Bible. None of which are counseling, psychology, or any other field that could or should lead to a job as a counselor. He does not have a certificate in the state of South Carolina to be a counselor. He does not believe in psychology. Bob Jones is s proponent of “Nouthetic Counseling” which denies any psychological part of the individual and says that if there is a problem that it is either a physical problem or it is sin in your life. They get by the laws in South Carolina by claiming they are doing pastoral, Boblical counseling which in SC doesn’t need a certification. Greenville has become a hot-bed of this kind of quackery with entire churches being planted around it. One church is actually trying to open a center to treat addicted women using the concepts and methods of this particular counselor. (he is no longer in his head counselor role at the University but has been moved to the Seminary in an effort to put younger people in administrative roles) These Nouthetic counselors are predatory in nature and have turned more people away from God than just about anything I know of except for Bob Jones its self. Many many MANY of my BJ friends – including former faculty, staff and faculty/staff kids – now claim to be atheists or agnostics. Based on the actions and attitudes of the University and what I personally experienced, I do not blame them. I doo turned my back on all things Christian. Who wants to serve a god like they serve at BJU that is so extremely evil trying to make you trip up and getting glee when you do because he can just pound you senseless. It is fascinating that BJU has grabbed ahold to Nouthetic Counseling as they have because it was invented by a Presbyterian. The University hates Presbyterians almost, not quite, as much as they hate Catholics. (Someone very close to me barely escaped expulsion in 1970 along with several others who were expelled for their strongly held Presbyterian – specifically Calvinist – beliefs.)

One of the stated purposed for the GRACE investigation was so that the University can apologize to those they maliciously blamed and shamed for their own abuse (that is not underserving someone, it is just evil.) If they actually do finish the investigation and issue an apology, if it turns out to be anything like the statement they issued about their racism that they called an apology, they can just keep it. Their statement regarding their racism states that they never claimed it to be a biblical issue (I believe I have heard that Mrs. Lewis has that very well documented as a lie) but was southern culture and they were just following the crowd. The last I checked, in 2000, Bob Jones was the only school that still held onto these policies.

Someone asked why students go to such IFB schools as BJU? When I was at IFB’s TTU school in the early 80’s, most students came from fairly uneducated homes and fearful parents. The parents were highly influenced by their pastor’s school of choice, which was usually: TTU, BJU, PCU, Liberty (though they were considered a bit liberal back in those days by the IFB,) and Hyles Anderson.

Each school had some serious legalism, poor people skills, group think, isolationism, often poor academics, fear, manipulation, intimidation, abuse, corruption and the like.

When I left TTU in the middle of my senior year, I was told by the Vice President of the school that “If you leave TTU, God will never use you again.” I left and the rest of that year many of the administration were exposed for different types of abuse and corruption (25 year affair, embezzlement, etc…) TTU declined from 6,000 students to 300.

Hester wrote:

@ Deb:
women’s rules are much longer than the men’s
If you think BJU is bad, go check out Pensacola Christian College (PCC). Last I heard women and men had to walk on different sidewalks and use different staircases and elevators.

I’ve communicated with a online recovery group of those who attended/graduated from PCC. They seem to be the most restrictive of all the IFB schools at this time.

Timely article in today’s Daily Beast: “How Creationism Hurts Christian Colleges – And Their Students.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/13/how-creationism-hurts-christian-colleges-and-their-students.html

Jerry wrote:

I was immediately shunned by the other dorm leaders. I had fallen from grace. This of course was the best thing that ever happened to me as it exposed to me the fallacy of that way of thinking.

Jerry – it’s good to hear that you rose above your circumstances. But the phrase “fallen from grace” is interesting, isn’t it? The question is: how does one “fall” from something one could never rise to in the first place?

As you observed, that kind of culture loads huge burdens on peoples’ backs without lifting a finger to help them. Not only is it powerless to work any spiritually-sourced transformation in us, it then necessarily refuses to give any practical or emotional help. (Because offering help to someone struggling with sin would mean admitting that the magical teaching/doctrine on offer had no power to “cleanse” them from it.)

@ dee:

You threw your cap across the room? Don’t talk to me about “rebellion,” woman. I wish I could have seen that.

nmgirl wrote:

I am a pr choice FEMINIST

An Attorney wrote:

I am a pro choice egalitarian

Now that I have clearly established myself here as a physician and a wearer of pants and a person who believes that unjust laws (religious rules) must in all good conscience be broken-publically and boldly…

And now that a couple of folks have brought up certain descriptive qualifiers that people sometimes associate with and/or assume about people like me…

Let me say, I am not, a pro-choice feminist or a pro-choice egalitarian–not with all the implications that those terms include.

I am “pro-choice” only as long as the choice is to save as many lives as possible. Abortion rarely accomplishes that. Certainly there are horrendous medical situations where horrendous choices have to be made. Not talking about that. But what is going on in the US now with huge disregard for both the women and the babies, oh #@%* no. Life is too important for that.

As a libertarian, I do not like the government interfering more than necessary for safety, etc., in the relationship between a woman and her physician. I would like to see abortion discouraged, but not so restricted so as to prevent it early in pregnancy, or when there is a medical reason later in pregnancy. But to claim that BCPs are abortifacients is ridiculous. I am against extremism of a wide variety of sorts.

I have had two experiences involving abortion, one before Roe v. Wade when I had to transport a friend to the ER after she had had an abortion. Making them illegal did not stop them and resulted in a lot of bad outcomes for women. The other involved a woman who got pregnant as a result of a one-night affair (not with me), but did not wait a week for me to decide whether I would adopt and raise her child as a single guy in an unstable career, and she had an abortion and called me to come pick her up afterward. I do not like abortion, but I like the consequences of pushing them underground less.

An Attorney wrote:

But to claim that BCPs are abortifacients is ridiculous. I am against extremism of a wide variety of sorts.

Of course, increasing access to birth control reduces the abortion rate. But there are enough people with enough political clout who believe that people who [are presumed to] have sinned must Suffer™, so initiatives to make birth control more widely available are doomed to failure.

My sentence should read “no impact on this community” not “comment”

@ Peter:

If I remember correctly, some of the opposition to Billy Graham had to do with ecumenism also. Like, how could a Baptist and a Methodist (or whatever) “share the platform” together. Take the doctrinal purity concept and the separation concept, and then throw the race issue in there, and Billy Graham’s opponents had right much to use against him. Doesn’t look like it slowed him down much, though. Heh, heh, heh.

Peter wrote:

As we know, later on Bob Jones senior bitterly opposed his ministry, saying things like “(Billy Graham was) doing more harm to the cause of Jesus Christ than any living man” (1966). In the 1970′s BJU produced a pamphlet with the title “we do not support Billy Graham” which compared him to Jehoshaphat. In the late 50s Billy Graham reportedly tried to mend bridges with Bob Jones senior but was told “Your on your way down Billy.” (Source David Aikman).

Was Godly Jealousy and Righteous Envy a factor in this?
“HOW DARE YOU BECOME MORE FAMOUS THAN MEEEEEEEE!”

Nancy wrote:

It is past time that parents and churches started growing young people with the knowledge and ability and courage to be christian wherever they are, including some secular campus.

I couldn’t agree with you more. With the caveat that in this life we don’t have all the answers, the Christian faith ought to have enough going for it to be able to withstand the scrutiny of a secular education. Many if not most subjects are religiously neutral anyway. Those that might not be, such as biology, or where dubious ethics are taught, can be countered by the local church getting ministry with expertise in the relevant area.

What is going to happen to children over-protected from the world around them when they enter the world of work?

@NC now – I haven’t reached boredom yet. I have been going through piles of papers, etc that have piled up since I’ve been in school the last two years. I could be here cleaning for awhile. Plus reading, catching up on movies, etc. Nice to take a break once in awhile.

Here’s one book you will want to rush out and purchase:

http://www.crossway.org/blog/2014/02/a-poem-for-valentines-day-by-john-piper/

After reading the poem I wanted to break out singing the hymn below. Perhaps there is something to the friendship between Driscoll and Piper?? In any case, don’t give up your day job John.

A Poem for Valentine’s Day by John Piper

None But You

Whose tears have soaked my collar dark?
None but yours, no, none but yours.

Whose sorrows leave the deepest mark?
None but yours, no, none but yours.

Who gave herself to me alone?
None but you, no, none but you.

Who is the only one I’ve known?
None but you, no, none but you.

There is no other I desire,
None but you, no, none but you.

Till death my deepest friend, my fire:
None but you, no, none but you.
============================

There’s Not a Friend Like the Lowly Jesus

There’s not a friend like the lowly Jesus,
No, not one! No, not one!
None else could heal all our soul’s diseases,
No, not one! No, not one!

Refrain

Jesus knows all about our struggles,
He will guide till the day is done;
There’s not a friend like the lowly Jesus,
No, not one! No, not one!

No friend like Him is so high and holy,
No, not one! No, not one!
And yet no friend is so meek and lowly,
No, not one! No, not one!

Refrain

There’s not an hour that He is not near us,
No, not one! No, not one!
No night so dark but His love can cheer us,
No, not one! No, not one!

Refrain

Did ever saint find this Friend forsake him?
No, not one! No, not one!
Or sinner find that He would not take him?
No, not one! No, not one!

Refrain

Was ever a gift like the Savior given?
No, not one! No, not one!
Will He refuse us a home in Heaven?
No, not one! No, not one!

dee wrote:

Final warning. Back off. Not everything is a hill to die on.

Feel free not to post this but this is the only way I have to communicate with you. Remember, I was misrepresented. I was explicit in my clarification and then I was attacked and accused again and you did nothing about it. How can you expect me to sit by and not respond to that? I can let a lot go, and I have, but when someone paints me as supporting or defending abuse, I will not let that go. You can’t blame me for defending myself against that, particularly after I have clarified. It’s one thing to miss it the first time. It’s another to repeat it after it has been clarified explicitly. You should have addressed the other commenter and told them to back off since I had been very clear about my position, even if they didn’t like it. Had you done that, no comment by me would have been necessary. Dee, don’t just defend the people who agree with you. All of us deserve to be treated fairly.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

You mean you don’t know how to become THE head of a Fundagelical megachurch, parachurch, or Bible College? The most sure way is to be born the son of the current head; 100% surety if your name ends in “Junior”. The ManaGawd mantle (and Speshul Standing before Gawd) is passed on from father to son like any other personal property.

You DO know the Catholic rule forbidding married clergy was instituted for this very reason? In a day when political POWER was routinely inherited like any personal property?

I hadn’t hear that explanation for the Catholic rule on married clergy (assuming you are joking) but it certainly does have the affect that a leader can’t pass it down his power to his son. The again there is always someone in the family like a nephew.

I don’t have any insider knowledge but it wouldn’t surprise me if the group Grace started to uncover some things involving “family” that made Bob Jone University quite uncomfortable and at least contributed to the firing. Again this is just conjecture but BJU might have been comfortable exposing some sin if it didn’t involve family members but if they were starting to find that then a good reason to try and stop the inquiry.

With Sovereign Grace Ministries you would also see a lot of nepotism. Sadly I am sure that is the case in a lot of other groups.

Shout out to all the peeps who survived the storm on the east coast!! I was digging out my car (it’s been a all morning event due to how much snow exists and how much was plowed behind my Nissan) and as I was digging out my car I thought how much I would rather be listening to John Piper tend to tap into God’s mind. You know how it is…he knows God better than himself!

We’ll I need to get back to shoveling snow.

@ Gene:

Everything is not about poor misunderstood you. This is about an attitude that minimizes the experience of others. What would be so hard, in your original posting, about saying something like “abuse is disgusting and wrong”?

Every time you post trying to justify yourself, you reveal once again that you have little awareness of the issues. So if you don’t want to be perceived in a negative light, stop posting. Or think for a moment before you post. Yes, stopping to consider ones words is possible. The words you use reveal an internal attitude. Enjoy your bubble.

Through a glass darkly wrote:

@ Gene:
Everything is not about poor misunderstood you. This is about an attitude that minimizes the experience of others. What would be so hard, in your original posting, about saying something like “abuse is disgusting and wrong”?

Anyone remember that study that the most common characteristic of psychopaths and sociopaths is getting others to feel sorry about Poor Poor Misunderstood ME?

@ Ken:

Ken wrote:

Those that might not be, such as biology, or where dubious ethics are taught, can be countered by the local church getting ministry with expertise in the relevant area.

Thanks, Ken. I hear what you are saying, but I would take that idea a bit of a step further if you don’t mind. I think that biology as a threat to faith is over-rated. I was a biology major as an undergrad. I think that if anybody is going to deny Jesus because of Zoology 201 taken just because they needed a “science” credit to graduate, that person is looking for an excuse to defect. If they don’t blame it on school they will probably blame it on something else.

And for those of us who majored in biology, let me state that my 2-semester-hour credits in “anatomy and physiology of the cryptogametes” did not have anything to do with this or that theory of the atonement. And my 3-semester-hour plant physiology course that we spent out in the university greenhouse never touched on the idea of whether christians could drink beer or not. But two semester hours of bird watching every Saturday at the crack of dawn was a real threat to my soul?? What we did learn was how to tromp through the woods, collect and fix and identify specimens and draw the results in the usual way. And we practiced our skill at being only slightly more nerdy than everybody else. I am being flippant and snarky, I know, but really the danger is over-rated. In all my years in school, I never had a professor care one whit what anybody thought or did not think about God. I did have one care whether we could identify the shells of various bivalve mollusks by touch only, while blindfolded. That was just a lab quiz though. And, yes, I did take one course in evolution, post-grad as an audit. Lots of math and formulas on the statistical effects of emigration and immigration on gene frequency in populations. Trust me, that does not go to the top of some prayer list. (Unless it is Oh Lord help me with the math.)

If people want to think of “us” as kind of odd–well maybe so. I admit that I am thinking about starting a container of earthworms, and I do grow tomatoes every summer. But we are not people with contaminated minds who should have to sit in a special roped off section at church. It is just not like that.

As to the teaching of dubious ethics. Who does that? I did take a very few philosophy classes in undergrad, trying to keep up my GPA and impress a future admissions committee, and one of those courses did happen to be ethics. It was just a bunch of stuff about various schools of thought. All you had to do was remember it well enough to write it down on the test. Nobody had to swear to anything. Frankly, I met more guys from SBTS who were questioning the faith, than I ever met faith-denying ornithologists at the university. (And dated one or two of the SBTS crowd. It did not go well.)

OK. Whatever. Just saying. Oh, BTW, that was the University of Louisville. Yeah!

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

The starvation treatment probably had some good statistics. After all, the patients did not die of their cancer! Just from the treatment. I think the word is “iatrogenic”, caused by medical treatment.

@ Patrice:
Ach, sorry HUG. That was meant for Nick way early-thread.

dee wrote:

t I think maybe I am trying to cast pearls here, so I will not engage in this again.

This has happened before. Gene is always right and if we don’t understand him it is because we are obviously not “understanding” him. Gene is gong back on ice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OndJp6Dcwjk

Katie wrote:

TTU, BJU, PCU, Liberty

Could someone provide a decoder ring?

TTU = ?
BJU = Bob Jones University
PCU = ?

nmgirl wrote:

What I want to know is why don’t our own American poor deserve help with houses and churches? I can show you several communities right here in Albuquerque that are as poor as some areas of Mexico.

It’s hard to get the teens interested in rehabbing an ex crack house across town compared to spending a week in Belize teaching under 12s a vacation bible school. In February. And of course the later is a much better use of resources.

NC Now wrote:

nmgirl wrote:
What I want to know is why don’t our own American poor deserve help with houses and churches? I can show you several communities right here in Albuquerque that are as poor as some areas of Mexico.
It’s hard to get the teens interested in rehabbing an ex crack house across town compared to spending a week in Belize teaching under 12s a vacation bible school. In February. And of course the later is a much better use of resources.

Overseas short-term mission trips. One of my pet peeves. Don’t get me started. There’s enough opinions out there for Dee and Deb to devote an entire post. I highly recommend Steve Saint’s book “The Great Omission” and his DVD series “Missions Dilemma”.

Gene:

(in relation to Billy Graham) ‘The position of the fundamentalists was that it was wrong to extend Christian recognition to someone who had denied one of the fundamentals.’

This was my understanding. I can only judge the UK outcome, but a strategic error in my view and a misunderstanding of ‘recognition.’

Billy Graham said “I am neither a fundamentalist or a modernist” (liberal). He had to face attacks from both directions but steered a middle path with dignity and humility.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Go Teams . . . your entire comment leaves me with one big sssiiiggghhh . . .

It obviously never occurred to the “authority,” who should possess some common sense discernment, that your gifts lay elsewhere? It’s also quite possible that the “authority” had a predetermined agenda and wasn’t taking into consideration each individual image bearer that they assigned to a Go Team.

dee wrote:

One comment not allowed. Hey-you guys ought to start a blog. 

Me?

Patrice wrote:

@ Patrice:
Ach, sorry HUG. That was meant for Nick way early-thread.

Partly my fault – I got moderated (and as a WordPresser, I think I know exactly why) so my comment didn’t appear till later. Plus, it was on the long side…

Is it really three or just one with three names?

Nancy, my undergrad degree is in Geology. We never talked about origins or creationism. we did talk about evolution and looked at real life examples. I remember well a series of small cephalopods in the San Saba Formation of Central Texas. The only salvation we were concerned about was from: ticks, sun stroke, rattlesnakes and mean professors.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

And I don’t entirely blame them; we often read references to C.S. Lewis’s dwarves on this blog, but their back-story was that having been fooled into following a counterfeit Aslan, they found it hard to follow the real one.

Which adds a whole new angle to it:
The Burn Job Reaction — Communism begets Objectivism.

Sheesh, if that isn’t De ja vu! The same thing happened at First Baptist of O’Fallon (same area as First Baptist of Fairview Heights, for those that don’t know) in the late 80’s and early 90’s. I know several of the victims. Only the perpetrator wasn’t caught until he did the same thing in Oklahoma (he was a Deacon and an Officer in the USAF…and he got to KEEP his retirement!). What a mess. (btw, I agree with the way IFB like to cover up and lie…grew up with it)

TW wrote:

Once again the Baptists prove that they have just as big a problem as the Catholics.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/deacon-at-fairview-heights-church-accused-of-sexually-abusing-boys/article_da815e34-3f20-5fda-a14a-c610c792878a.html

Griggs again shows himself to be the same man he was in 2011 when he said this: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/08/christa-brown-makes-clear-case-for.html?showComment=1313076039843#c5839894566419876957

And as Griggs is wont to point out himself, he is no better a man than Doug Phillips of Vision Forum.

What did GRACE do the last time they were fired? Did their findings simply go unpublished in that case?

Patrice wrote:

Something else that I’ve often wondered at is the assumption that “the poor” who need our help are not believers. It’s an odd assumption seen, for eg, in our insistence to give gospel messages along with our food-aid. Also in the idea that “helping the poor” is often seen to be more a mission than a ministry.
There’s an unexamined notion that if they are poor, they are obviously not heeding the principles of Christ, even among those who don’t believe the prosperity gospel. I don’t know if this is so where you are but it is definitely here.
The US church is more defined by middle-class values than it is usually willing/able to admit. As the economy continues to decline, I hope that we will be able to sweep that away.

Retha wrote:

1) We do not assume the poor are all unevangelized. But some behavior which Christians frown upon – alcohol, having children out of wedlock, an aversion to hard work, play a role in at least some people getting poor.

One of my children teaches EC in a public high school. A significant percentage of the adolescents on her roster come from situations which are “poor” with all the concomitant problems associated with that. Some are illegally in this country. Many have criminal records. Most are in ethnic gangs of one sort or another. A significant number make their living selling stolen stuff, drugs and their bodies on campus, often because it is that or starve. For many, the “parent” is alcoholic or addicted or “sorry” or has been deported. So what exactly do these adolescents need to survive? Perhaps to thrive? Is it impossible?

Here is the illustration I am leading up to. One of the kids, an adolescent male (in the hood that has a little different meaning than at First Baptist of Downtown) had made a habit of portraying himself as a believer. Apparently it is acceptable to say you believe just so long as it does not affect your behavior in any way that would hurt the gang. So my daughter challenged the kid on that, with so why are you planning to do such-and-such since you say you believe. You know you will end in jail and maybe the grave for this. And the kid said: “You got to understand, Ms. X, I ain’t all the way saved.”

So what does this kid need at this point? A stable home situation to grow up in? Too late for that. A clean police record? Too late. An education? The state is trying; at least he can read. A good church? Which one; First B of D? A group of friends so they can help each other? Got one; it’s called a gang. Job skills and job opportunity? Would you hire this kid?

I think he needs somebody/ anybody to convince him that he might have a future somehow.

He needs basic needs met: food, clothes, a roof over his head, relief from the necessity and the excuse of having to provide everything for himself and for his “slow” little sister. (Oh, didn’t I mention her and how this kid looks out after her?)

And he needs Jesus. He needs to get all the way saved. I am not going to go down there and live with him, but Jesus will.

Basic necessities are not enough. The gold chains around his neck and the cutting edge electronics in his pocket (which the po-po will confiscate) are not enough. All he can take to jail with him is Jesus. All he can take to the grave with him, if it comes to that, is Jesus.

That’s why.

G’morn, Retha and Nancy. Oh yes, certainly there are gigantic problems among the poor and many are not believers. And their common human problems are made nearly intractable because of poverty.

My point isn’t that there aren’t unbelievers who need to know Christ, but that there are at least as many believers among them as in any other economic group and yet we tend to see only the non-believers, and then we conflate that with mission.

IMO, it is more accurate to recognize that we have many spiritual sisters and brothers who are poverty stricken. This could help give us more urgency to bring aid and also erase a niggling tendency to see them in their position because of moral failure. Because we tend to think this way, we go to the most morally failed among them and make them stand in for the complete group.

The kinds of awfulness you both mention happen in all classes: many fall straight into poverty because of it, some stay in poverty because of it. But also many can’t get out of poverty even when they try and try.

Yah, the greatest sorrow is the children of poverty-stricken abusive parents. How they can come to understand love when they’ve only experienced neglect, chaos, violence is beyond understanding, and requires a miracle from God via our hands.

I come from a family of dentists, architects, engineers, pastors: all Christian. I experienced that abuse and I am tres grateful for the miracle. To have deep poverty on top of it? I don’t think I would’ve been able to stay alive, TBH. I am not different from them, except for their additional burden. And I talk here of believers.

“You got to understand, Ms. X, I ain’t all the way saved.” An honest person on his way. How lovely!

Patrice wrote:

I dislike such cold practicality, but he was correct.

Very interesting.

I work in Foster Care.
In spite of propaganda that says otherwise, our job is to support the family with services and the first goal of the family is for the child to return home if possible.

I do see a lot of ‘believers’ among the more destitute. But I also understand that their believership is just a bit different than my middle class view of being a believer. And yes, I see this mutuality you speak of. I’m also quite used to being lied to. So much so that when they tell me the truth, I’m surprised. I know middleclassers who thing all liars aren’t worth spit. I’ve come to see it as just another survival skill in an extremely hostile environment.

Anyway, back to picking those most likely to succeed.

When the child’s goal to return home isn’t met due to parents’ failure to provide minimal parenting and stability, the next goal is termination.
We have child in care right now who was on the bottom of the barrel. Left in her own home, she would be the least likely to succeed. But in her new foster home and with the potential of being adopted, we see a bright future for her.

I see the cold practicality approach as being the best for those not involved in the work I do. But such cold practicality really does leave ‘the least of these’ abandoned. I’d take that practicality with a grain of salt. Sometimes you can’t always see the most likely to succeed because they are so far on the bottom of the abuse food chain it’s like they aren’t there at all.

Mara wrote:

But such cold practicality really does leave ‘the least of these’ abandoned. I’d take that practicality with a grain of salt. Sometimes you can’t always see the most likely to succeed because they are so far on the bottom of the abuse food chain it’s like they aren’t there at all.

Yes, I found it unpalatable for myself. But with a diaconate in the middle of a large poverty-stricken area, there is so much need that inevitably many will be left out. Who to choose?

I think it’s often hit/miss. Someone who looks on his last leg of entrenched destruction, sometimes will rise up more surely than another in much less trouble. I couldn’t follow the diaconate leader’s advice, in the end. I had relationships with those nearest me (neighborhood wise) and stayed with that.

But the guy did have better success, in the most literal sense, than I did. He had to deliver regular reports to his denomination. I think he became very good at analysis of individuals, although I’m sure he missed the lovely surprises. Anyway, I see success as simply offering love and clarity and letting God do what S/He will, whether decades down the line or tomorrow.

Foster Care is a very distressful field. My respects, Mara. I hope you have solid support.

@ Patrice:
Oh, and then there’s the lies that the adults tell. “No it didn’t happen” is common. All of reality can be up for grabs. It’s a conundrum. Poor tykes!

Mara wrote:

This sort of work is not for the faint of heart.

No it isn’t, not for the kids nor for those who help. Take care of yourself in your work!

Mara wrote:

I’m also quite used to being lied to. So much so that when they tell me the truth, I’m surprised. I know middle-classers who think all liars aren’t worth spit. I’ve come to see it as just another survival skill in an extremely hostile environment

Yes, I liken it to a TV documentary with footage of a wolf chasing a rabbit. The rabbit zigs and zags as the wolf pursues. The rabbit instinctively knows how to change course 180 degrees. I see victims of child abuse the same way. Lying is just a survival skill. They gauge your reactions and change the story instantly and convincingly. I don’t judge them for that.

As Patrice said, [lying is] “…unimportant in comparison to other things, such as not constantly hurting.”

So true. Anything to stay alive and find some level of safety.

@ Stephanie:

Silence about abuse is to abet abuse. And covering up abuse, making the victims of abuse be silent about it, and blaming the victim are all abuses by the organization. The dirty linen must be publicly washed and corrective steps taken. This blog speaks for the victims, of both abuse and of the system that seeks to blame the victims — And BJU has policies and practices that have blamed the victims and protected the perpetrators. That will come out in an fair, unbiased investigation. Changes in the policies and practices, staff, etc. at BJU are necessary to stop the crimes being committed there.

Stephanie wrote:

I never heard of anyone complaining about abuse when I was there. All of this has come about since I went there. We are all human and I am sure B.J.U. has made mistakes but haven’t we all. It is so sad to see Christians trying to hurt other Christians by writing negative things here. Let B.J.U. and who ever else is involve handle this. It is really none of anyone else’s concern about what is happening. You can either choose to go there or choose not to. Shame on you who are just letting the devil get in your thoughts and try to destroy a godly place. I am so sickened by this

FUNDY ALERT!

@ Stephanie:

I hope you were not thinking when you wrote and published your comment. We are not trying to be negative. Abuse is abuse wherever it occurs.

Janey wrote:

Yes, I liken it to a TV documentary with footage of a wolf chasing a rabbit. The rabbit zigs and zags as the wolf pursues. The rabbit instinctively knows how to change course 180 degrees. I see victims of child abuse the same way. Lying is just a survival skill. They gauge your reactions and change the story instantly and convincingly. I don’t judge them for that.

Very well put. Good visual. I like visuals.

@ Stephanie:When I was a Christian and 18, my parents sent me to a public university with few rules. I had to learn in a hurry to make my own decisions and take the consequences. I din’t have 4 more years of childhood.
Guess what, I’m fine and not a christian any more thanks to hypocrites like you.

Stephanie wrote:

Sometimes we put these petty things right up there where they are not really important.

How true. The eccentric rules of BJU, whilst hinting at something unhealthy, were not remotely the primary concern of this post and it is surprising that anyone would put them right up there when critiquing this post. The post was, of course, about sexual harassment and abuse, and a squandered opportunity for the university to walk in the light while addressing such.

Stephanie wrote:

It is really none of anyone else’s concern about what is happening. You can either choose to go there or choose not to. Shame on you who are just letting the devil get in your thoughts and try to destroy a godly place.

When sexual a—–t and abuse are occurring and being covered up, it concerns us all. And BJU is one of the most ungodly places in the United States, and I don’t say that lightly.

Stephanie wrote:

It is so sad to see Christians trying to hurt other Christians by writing negative things here. Let B.J.U. and who ever else is involve handle this. It is really none of anyone else’s concern about what is happening

It is only when the light of truth shines in from outside that change takes place. Unfortunately, BJU is just another ho hum organization trying to hide from the light.

In fact why don’t you talk about the racial component to some of those rules when you attended BJU?

Also, BJU wants everyone to look at them and see how “godly” they are. They take out ads, etc. Once you go public, you get to be critiqued publicly.

Stephanie wrote:

Shame on you who are just letting the devil get in your thoughts and try to destroy a godly place.

And you know that the devil is invading our thoughts how?

Stephanie wrote:

B.J.U. has every right to have rules of dress, what you can watch or do as a student. They are a private Christian institute

That’s fine, but people have a right to voice their opinions on the internet about that school, even if they’re not in favor of their rules or the school.

@ Daisy:

What Gosnell was doing was illegal under current law, so what was being done was not at all a result of the status of law in this field at all

Dee wrote:

Now, why don’t you say something about the victims? They are a bit more important than whether or not one can wear jeans, right?

Not when “It’s All About MEEEEEEEEEEEE!”

I found this link at today’s “BJU Sex Abuse Cover Up” (Day 12) post on DoRightNowBJU. The Desert Petrichor post gives one of the best categorizations I’ve seen for different kinds of responses/non-responses to victims by people bound by black-and-white thinking / fundamentalism / legalism. It is well worth our time to read!

http://desertpetrichor.blogspot.com/2014/02/cognitive-dissonance-part-2.html

I’m sure I’ll be giving this post many more readings, and puzzle through options for responding wisely to various kinds of commenters. It’s still difficult to know how to comment back constructively to those in a lot of these categories. For many of us who were stuck in these same kinds of enclosed systems of circular thinking, it wasn’t logical or theological reasoning from someone far away that got us to see how blinded we were … it often took an emotional or relational shock from up close — truly, an intervention of the Holy Spirit — to sow seeds of doubt about the doctrines and leaders and institutions we thought were true beyond truth. But still, I found the categories and examples here incredibly helpful.

Elder at North Hills Community Church (home church of many BJU students)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVv0MhGgv8&feature=youtube_gdata_player